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Author Topic: Science and Religion  (Read 5407 times)
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elportenito1
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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2007, 10:59:41 AM »

obertray:

"It always struck me as odd that the dinosaurs grew to such immense size and then, since then only a few whales match them. Why was this?"


Think Chevrolet Impala 1960 and you'll get the answer to your question. (The answer is: Volks Wagen.)
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in vino veritas
BorisBartenov
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« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2007, 11:22:36 AM »

Due to physics (ratios of volume to surface area, and such) extreme giantism is an evolutionary oddity --- give a planet billions of years and it becomes probable that many anomalies will happen.  Usually, any shift in climate tends to be traumatic, often resulting in diminished food supply for a species, so you get insular dwarfism for species that can't migrate somewhere else.  Evolution has seen many instances of pygmy species of horses, elephants, bovines, etc. where it was a response to tightening food supply.  Giantism, OTOH, is a rare development where there is a long spell of great abundance over a huge area, like the Cretaceous, and factors such as sexual display (which large size can be a form of) can run rampant in a sort of selective "arms race" effect.



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"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes."
Donotremove
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« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2007, 01:57:09 PM »

Ober, indeed, why the whale?  What niche, exactly, does this huge mammal (I guess they're mammals) fill?

Barton, sheesh, feller, that's the driest I've ever heard describing the rise and fall of the dinasours.  Smiley
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liquidsilver
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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2007, 02:13:11 PM »

While its not really a popular theory anymore, the immense size of dinosaurs and other animals millions of years ago could be explained by the Expanded Earth theory as it would indicate that such beings lived in a state of reduced gravity
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Donotremove
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« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2007, 03:46:33 PM »

Liquid, have mercy and don't mess with my mind.  Reduced gravity?  Going into the Museum of Natural History in Denver, CO, and looking up, up, up at those bones strung together overhead is serious when you think of adding meat and muscle and that day's lunch, and then you stand next to one of the feet . . .
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obertray
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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 04:53:48 PM »

Why a whale?

Well have you ever had whale soup?

Let's go from the assumption that Whales and Porpoises were once land animals that adapted to water life over millions of years (some have said that man made the journey into the water but then came back to the land but that this is why we're so hairless and so upright and why our nose opens down and why we have such a brian, because the ocean was abundant in high protein foods. This might explain just a little bit how people got to Australia before there were boats, a question that really digs at me.) Perhaps they are still working out a separate segment of the problem and they haven't been able to reach a conclusion just yet. Or perhaps they have, but they haven't been able to add their conclusion to the general store of "Earthly Knowledge". Perhaps that knowledge, combined with ours combined with porpoisal proposals will be the key to the next lifeform iteration. Prehaps interspecies communication will be as common as societal living is today.

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BorisBartenov
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« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2007, 12:35:48 PM »

I think Liquid was posting in a state of reduced gravity and increased levity.

David Brin's Uplift series of novels would be relevant reading to your dolphin speculations, Obertray.

I've read Startide Rising, which was excellent.

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"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes."
obertray
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« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2007, 02:07:12 PM »

Could you paraphrase it for us here Barton?
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desdemona222b
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« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2007, 04:25:55 PM »

I can't explain how, but science and religion never seemed to be much of a conflict to me, but I don't take the Garden of Eden thing literally.  But back then no one was worried about the conflict regarding how old the earth is, etc.  I don't know what moron gave all Christians a bad rap by deciding the earth is 6000 years old - that is sheer conjecture and has nothing to do with anything in the Bible, just dumb asses who assume the stories in the old testament took place that long ago, I guess.

There's this film called "Camp Jesus" that came out about a month or so ago - it's a documentary you can get in recent releases at the video store.  It's about an evangelical camp for children where they speak in tongues and teach them that evolution is wrong, etc.  Most of the kids are home schooled so they're taught that Adam and Eve were how the world began, etc.   I don't get where all this came from - the theory of evolution has been around for a very long time now, it's not anything new.  We just never did hear the church address it at all coming up, but now it's a fad.  I grew up in the Southern Baptist church, which is not evangelical because the people who call themselves evangelical these days are the ones who speak in tongues and go wild in their religious services - I got that much from the movie. 

Anyway, if anyone remembers that guy who was president of the evangelical church association or whatever they call it was outed as a homosexual about the same time the film was released.  This is a guy who was ranting about perversion and spewing homophobic sermons and he was doing the nasty with other men the whole time.  Anyway, it makes your skin crawl because there is a scene at the end where he is preaching to these kids.  Yikes.

I'm glad my family let me just compartmentalize it all - you all should see this one scene in this lady's kitchen.  She's home schooling her children and explaining why and she is just so ignorant and weird.  That's why I don't get how home schooling can be legal - a teacher has to have a certification and degree, but any bozo is allow to teach their child at home, regardless of their background.  The poor kids end up ignorant and intellectually stunted.

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obertray
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« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2007, 05:21:46 PM »

I'm pretty sure that dumb asses name was Sir Isaac Newton! For certain he spent the last 40 (?) years of his life trying to date the Bible (work back the begats, as it were).

Actually, the Adam and Eve bit is a very intresting story in that the bad guy wins! What other theology starts out with the idea that we are all the children of the bad guy? None that I'm aware of. All mythologies idolize the founders of the faith. (Ok the Greeks weren'yt to happy with Prothemeus, and they send Pandora to haunt his existence as punishment for showing man fire. And yeah you can say that all are decendants of Pandora because she brought with her the plumbing we find so useful in the area of procreation.) It's an odd story to have been included, and it probably didn't come from the Semites originally.

Probably what happened was that the farmers took over the land of the hunter gatherers (who live in concert with nature and therefore in "God's Garden" where they had no need of planting and growing) and the hunter gatherers were told "Join or be killed", so they joined, but they weren't happy about it and they told tales to their young about how they used to be free and lived in "God's Garden" but Cain killed those who would not be like him.

Anyway Newton dated it back and back (I don't think he was successful as a matter of fact, but he did spend more than half his life trying) and if one took it back to the time of the biblical beginning, the Garden Of Eden would be it (according to the Bible) so if you're going to believe the bible is God's word, then you need to believe in the timing.

That's why this issue is SOOO important to Fundamentalist Christians. Without it, there is no validity to the concept that the Bible is the word of God. Without that there is nothing! Then it is only a matter of time before people are asking themselves "What am I doing this for?"

Furtherly. Religion .... Science owes its entirety to religion. Without religion there would not have been disciplined science.



 
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johnr60
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« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2007, 08:58:48 PM »

"if you're going to believe the bible is God's word, then you need to believe in the timing.

"That's why this issue is SOOO important to Fundamentalist Christians. Without it, there is no validity to the concept that the Bible is the word of God."

I'm not quite sure what you mean and would ask for some clarification.  I certainly can conceive the opposite of what you state, whether correctly or not is another question.
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Donotremove
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« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2007, 03:39:29 AM »

Mmm, Ober, that was sooo good.  I'm going to cut out some figures and get you a felt board to put 'em up on.  Hot damn, if I'd had that in Sunday school I might have dropped out sooner than I did.  I love that Old Testament "join or be killed."  Talk about fractured religious tales . . .  Smiley
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BorisBartenov
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« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2007, 10:49:35 AM »

Ober --

Religion has been a way for humans to fill gaps in understanding when their level of science can't do the job.  Early men could use scientific methods of reasoning to figure out how to cultivate certain crops, but didn't have the means to understand why the volcano suddenly erupted all over the corn field.  When the desire to understand cannot be satisfied by empirical and experimental methods, then a supernatural conjecture is made and a ritual developed so that people can feel they are doing something and maybe getting some bit of control.  As science has developed more range and muscle, the gaps are filled, and so religion beats a retreat to the more difficult and esoteric gaps.

The question is if there is some ultimate gap that will never be attainable with scientific methods.  And that, of course, is the big debate in areas like the study of the spontaneous formation of nucleic acids on new planets, or the nature of consciousness.  Or knowing what a photon is "really like" in itself, if such a concept is even meaningful.



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oskylad
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« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2007, 06:45:14 PM »

Barton - The "God of the gaps" is a very limiting, materialistic view of God and spirituality.  Perhaps Augustine had a better view of God when he said: "Lord, you have made us for yourself, and our souls are restless until they find their rest in you." 
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obertray
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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2007, 03:54:08 PM »

Barton - The "God of the gaps" is a very limiting, materialistic view of God and spirituality.  Perhaps Augustine had a better view of God when he said: "Lord, you have made us for yourself, and our souls are restless until they find their rest in you." 

I don't think that, neither this nor barton's "God of the gaps" are instrumental in the close relationship that science has to religion. I feel that science owes its rigor to religion in that religion didn't just accept any alternative explanation of the natural world without soame Goddamned good proof!

It's a mistake of Scientismists to think that leaders of the Catholic church were at all like the brainless zealots that run so many of the protestant churches today.

Perhaps Augustine had a better view, but this quote doesn't display it. This quote is lead heavy with presupposition and self referential proof of the assumption.

Let me ask both scientsts and religious alike. What is "life"? (Asked like I have an answer. Which I do not)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 07:50:01 AM by obertray » Logged
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