Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
June 20, 2018, 06:56:02 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: As you may have noticed, this is a very old backup, I'm still working through restoring the site.  Don't be surprised if you post and it all goes missing....
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 52
  Print  
Author Topic: World History  (Read 11045 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
madupont
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 5413


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2007, 02:19:26 PM »

Wiliam James?

Good answer but, in the American scheme of things, psychology as science divided from philosophy?

But the subject: World History, suggests my age old question of why the Greeks in the Golden Age  of their investigations and discoveries in science then reverted  to mythologies?  It was Alice Munro,a Scots-Canadian who dropped me a clue in one of her short stories, discussed with Colburn in the old haunt, when I pointed out she drops clues, and she named a textbook that she was reading on a train, (in character) as having taught Greek Classics so, I went back to check it out and it was used at Berkeley by a quite insistent philosopher during our McCarthy Era who wanted to indicate the parallels that the Golden Age of Science soon involved a repression ideologically and they resorted to mythos as code (which is an art-form in itself).

So, it does have early  roots, included in the Humanities curriculum, and I think helped push Berkeley toward the Free Speech movement. For those interested, check out the stories in Runaway which JONATHAN FRANZEN
reviewed on Nov.14,2004, an event which brought immediate letters of protest from the moral values Right in the column that was then devoted to Books and Reviews at The New York Times, Sunday Books
Logged
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2007, 06:57:47 PM »

True, but I think it was either through James, or in his era at least that the separation of philosophy from the sciences occured

Let me see if I can find out ....
Logged
johnr60
Full Member
***
Posts: 206


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2007, 08:43:20 PM »

Philosophy is involved with uncertainties.  As each science became certain of their position they broke from philosophy.
Logged
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2007, 09:31:45 PM »

John,

You may be onto it. As I read more last night, I got into the greater use of quantity over quality in judging science, and the return to reliance on the replicable experiment instead of the beautifully worded argument. So, it may have to do with the quantitization of science that moved it from one column to the next.

Bob,

I don't know which James you are referring to, so have no idea what era that could be. Sorry, I'm just not that academic. I am reading more in retirement than I did for many years. Many teachers are heavy readers during the summer, but I tended to spend my summers preparing materials for the students (that were not purchased by the district despite the need), and learning to use computers.

Logged
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2007, 10:11:35 PM »

William James was a Philosopher/Psychologist, in fact the  guy who developed the discipline of Psychology out of Philosopohy. He wrote PRAGMATISM and is generally the looked on as the father of the concept and the father of modern Psychology. He lived until about 1910 and was extremely influential in his day.  There's a new biography of him--which is why his name came to mind.

His brother was Henry James, novelist, who lived into the 1920's. Who was moire influential in his day is hard to say--but today William is more remembered. Henry wrote TURN OF THE SCREW & WASHINGTON SQUARE and numerous other works.  He's the guy who coined the term THEODORE REX to describe Theodore Roosevelt.

Their father was also very prominent....the entire family was very extraordinary...
Logged
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2007, 10:14:55 PM »

Returning to the original question, after some very superficial reading, it may go back to Emanuel Kant---since its out of my realm, I'll leave it to others to come up with an answer.
Logged
johnr60
Full Member
***
Posts: 206


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2007, 11:04:10 PM »

"He wrote PRAGMATISM and is generally the looked on as the father of the concept..."

I think you will find that even James gives that paternity to Charles Peirce
Logged
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2007, 12:05:17 AM »

John,

Thanks. I was always taught that Freud was the father of psychiatry/psychology.

Theodore Rex would be an interesting title for Teddy Roosevelt. He did think himself the consumate leader of the country! I read his biography by Nathan Miller in recent months.

I may well like William James book on Pragmatism. I have generally prided myself on being more practical than philosophical. I'll add it to my "books to buy" list tonight.

Logged
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2007, 12:42:35 AM »

William James's Varieties of Religious Experience was a phenomenal study of the subject which was very popular in college back in the 60s and 70s.  As with much of the material we studied then, it has fallen into obscurity.
Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2007, 05:11:55 AM »

Quote
I think you will find that even James gives that paternity to Charles Peirce

How true. But there's an interesting substory to it....My favorite book on the subject is THE METAPHYSICAL CLUB, which  has Peirce harkening back to Kant. Menand  quotes Kant's use of the term, if  not the concept, on page 227 and then says: "Kant  thought of "pragmatic belief" as one of several kinds of belief; Peirce thought it was the only kind of belief." Then, on page 228  Menand states: "So far, Peirce was only coining a philosophical term-pragmatism-for an idea already shared by  by Wright, Green, Holmes, and James (and for that matter by James Stephen and Alexander Bain)."

So Peirce has antecedents also.

Anyhow, on Page 347 Menand remarks "William James invented pragmatism as a favor to Charles Peirce. Peirce needed one. He then recounts a sorid tale of Peirce and his troubles and how James came to help him. The he recounts how James  "introduced the term "pragmatism" to the world," and quotes James giving  credit to Peirce.  "James's lecture made pragmatism a subject of internationsl discussion and debate for twenty years. " (See Menand, pages 347 to 351).

It was James, not Peirce , who brought Pragmatisam to the world. Though Peirce, who got it from Kant, delivered it to James, James gets the credit--without him Pragmatism  might never have reached the prominence it did. Peirce is little known today for several reasons....he was a sad character in history.

By the way the Menand book is an excellent study which should be read by all who wish to understand the era it covers, late 1800's into the early 1900's. It covers Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr, William James, Charles Sanders Peirce, and John Dewey.

Charles Sanders Peirce founded semiotics. Peirce's  question was "What does it mean to say that a statement is "true"  in a world always susceptible to a "certain swerving" ?  (Menand, 223)
Logged
nytempsperdu
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 402


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2007, 05:17:21 PM »

Quote
William James's Varieties of Religious Experience was a phenomenal study of the subject which was very popular in college back in the 60s and 70s.  As with much of the material we studied then, it has fallen into obscurity

That and Fanon's work were both very big when I was in college--first in late 60s, by time I went back late 70s, Marcuse & McLuhan were bigger.

I couldn't participate when the Menand work was being discussed in the NYT forum, so I'm happy to be reminded of it, thanks.   
Logged
madupont
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 5413


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2007, 08:11:19 PM »

nytempsperdu,

The discussion was taking place in the forums  at the time of 9/11 and came to a halt as the shock set in.    I found this out, from sheer curiosity as to how the forums responded that day; so, I looked it up because we were now too far removed from the event to gauge correctly how we had first reacted.  It was very strange reading  from the page, that is: on-line, about peoples' realizations.
Logged
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2007, 11:22:15 AM »

Quote
Philosophy is involved with uncertainties.  As each science became certain of their position they broke from philosophy.

Probably the best answer of all and as far as I can see thie trend began either late 18th or early 19th century.

By the way, in Richardson's biography of Henry James, on page 136, he says that Pragmatism was born and formed in Cambridge in the early 1870's in the Metaphysical Club. I'll have to look again in the text to see how much credit he gives Peirce.
Logged
johnr60
Full Member
***
Posts: 206


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2007, 03:29:18 PM »

"In 1851, A. A. Cournot worked out a system which
introduced a separation between structural laws and
historical criteria in all their forms by employing three
great series of sciences, a theoretical, an historical, and
a practical series, each composed of the following kinds
of science: mathematical, physical, biological, mental
or symbolical, and political. Every branch of science
has its place in one of the three times five boxes in
columns."

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-57

see pragmatism at the same site
Logged
madupont
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 5413


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2007, 02:56:45 AM »

I'm rereading Ten Days That Shook The World intending to discuss it with lhoffman and any interested others in Oct. in Nonfiction.  It could be moved here or remain there.  Certainly, there's no shortage of books of interest and I'm grateful to whoever got this new thread started, and will try to follow even when unable to participate.  THANKS!
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 52
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!