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Author Topic: World History  (Read 11056 times)
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madupont
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« Reply #705 on: June 11, 2008, 02:32:30 PM »

I'd say that given they are a lot nearer except for a huge desert, our support(with their oil) interests them more than it does the Egyptians; but, I would recommend this op-ed today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/opinion/11friedman.html

Obama on the Nile
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #706 on: June 11, 2008, 03:50:52 PM »

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...

I believe they consider us Infidels who should be destroyed.  The Palestinian issue and America's support for Israel is a huge issue for them.


Not entirely.

The Koran identifies Christians and Jews as ''people of the Book" (that is, the Bible) who are deserving of respect as every Muslim.  True, they have great disdain for Zionism and those who support it.  But the term 'infidel' is generally reserved for those who knowingly profane the Koran rather than for non-Muslims.
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #707 on: June 11, 2008, 03:59:30 PM »

Thanatopsy...Yes.  Muslims do consider Christians and Jews to be "People of the Book."  I suspect that Desdemona was saying they consider Americans to be infidels.
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #708 on: June 11, 2008, 04:05:40 PM »

I understand.

Unfortunately, since the  controlled news media are owned by those highly sympathetic to Zionism, it has spared no effort to mischaracterize people of the Middle East and Central Asia. This is what has given so many in the West the mistaken notion that Saudis and others regard all of us as 'infidels' when there simply is no basis for that myth.
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #709 on: June 11, 2008, 04:16:37 PM »

The Arab oil embargo of 1973 "did more to tranform the {Saudi} Kingdom than any other event since the discovery of oil itself." {p 157}


This has probably been overlooked by many. And while Faisal profited from this, it ultimately led to his assassination as was discussed earlier. This led to Fahd's ascension which worked out quite well for the Bin Laden's interests as he increased the  patronage given to that family. They became much wealthier as they worked on infrastrucutural projects.

When OBL experienced his epiphany into the Muslim Brotherhood, his portion of that wealth was used by him to promote their radicalized theocratic goals.


pp 152-212

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Bob
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« Reply #710 on: June 11, 2008, 06:18:33 PM »

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So Osama's first influence doesn't seem to be Wahhabist per se--that must be yet to come in my reading.

"The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hasan al-Banna, a 22-year-old elementary school teacher, as an Islamic revivalist movement following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the subsequent ban of the caliphate system of government that had united the Muslims for hundreds of years. Al-Banna based his ideas that Islam was not only a religious observance, but a comprehensive way of life, on the tenets of Wahhabism, better known today as "Islamism", and he supplemented the traditional Islamic education for the Society's male students with jihadia training."

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/mb.htm

Sort of the same thing---Wahhabism-----> The Muslim Brotherhood

It's like Christianity contains within it Catholicism and Methodism and Presbyterianism, etc--they may differ in things, but they are all Christian. They all have the same basic belief in Christ.... In the Moslem world Wahhabism is manifested through the Moslem Brotherhood --- so don't look for a direct reference.  Coll is being very specific as to from whence the Wahhabic influence came.
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madupont
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« Reply #711 on: June 11, 2008, 07:13:43 PM »

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...

I believe they consider us Infidels who should be destroyed.  The Palestinian issue and America's support for Israel is a huge issue for them.


Not entirely.

The Koran identifies Christians and Jews as ''people of the Book" (that is, the Bible) who are deserving of respect as every Muslim.  True, they have great disdain for Zionism and those who support it.  But the term 'infidel' is generally reserved for those who knowingly profane the Koran rather than for non-Muslims.


"respect" is quite different, based on common origins but not practice. In fact, I seriously doubt this refers to the same "book". It is in the very nature of Christian practices for instance to profane the Koran' authority. We do things they have continually  been educated to consider wrong. Likewise with Judaism but I am not going to make an example of that at the moment. Consider instead how Christians have not been in agreement about the books that make up a proper Bible?

None of that validates the emphasis of Judaism upon what Christians refer to as Old Testament, until you get to the very recent formation of groups in the Delaware valley who are known as Jews for Jesus who will have become more familiar with what we call New Testament Christianity than other Jews previously cared.

This was brought home to me last night that, when facing conditions of extermination, adaptations evolve quickly. Europe produced many Jewish Christians, as well as Jewish Agnostics; neither of which matter to the exterminator of the 20th.century.  I had just seen a film about a man who survived that period by being able to pass as a Christian.  It was a priest who doubted that he had ever been baptized, given the highly organized structure of the Roman Catholic church; although the passing Christian had a Russian Catholic mother who died at Auschwitz because she had been married to a Polish Jew who was an agnostic.

This all sounded a lot more than vaguely familiar to me, because  of how subtly this happens between my generation and the next, I have acquired a whole new set of relatives some of whom were raised in both traditions and were free to choose to marry within the religion of just one of their parents; and, the latest generation, by synchronicity with the immediate era of current events, thoroughly disagree with the government in Israel although they are Americans and who have relationships to the generation that had to take refuge in Israel because of the Revolution in Iran.  They then got out of Israel as quickly as possible because it too is a target (ironically, at the same time that Iran is from our present government).

The Saudi-Arabians have the luxury of a family and government that accepts a theocracy as a given. So it seems to us very integral but not fond of the Shiites which our valiant leader ingeniously empowered and now is frantically trying to get rid of just as desperate as he wanted to get into Iraq,because? --it offends the Oil Arabs. They know he is quite dumb and is making a mess of things on our continent as well.

Which is possibly why I am more fascinated by the aspects( in this book of bin Ladens ) which nytempsperdu referred to as somewhat the "Gertrude Bell" view of the nomadic. We get this in the early pages of Coll's tome, the unfolding story of the early members of the family. This is familiar to me, how those who live a tribal existence in depleted resources emigrate. One becomes an agnostic at the same time, for fear of being of the wrong religion in a new environment. Or, as in the case of Osama, just the opposite, if not just the pretension to give the appearance of being a Believer and a very strict  one. This was in a footnote, recalling an incident that I remembered as shocking,you will find marked with an asterisk at the bottom of pg.23:"Decades later, Osama bin Laden recruited Khalid Al-Mihdhar, a member of this well-known Wadi Doan family of sayyids, or descendents of the Prophet Mohamed, as a highjacker in the September 11 plot; Al-Mihdhar piloted the plane that crashed into the Pentagon."

That is why certain traditional laws, as I remarked about 14 months ago, serve as conduits for understanding between the extremes of custom, the antipodes of practice, which Bedouin nomads call "ada" or Adat, when a judge has to decide rights or wrongs. I thought perhaps our intelligence was making it up in translation of Al Jazeera when they showed us "recently surfaced video tapes taken at a wedding" where we hear Osama conversing glibly in the mens' tent and having a tendency to display sardonic humor when admitting that some of the perpetrators were recruits less educated than we in the US were led to believe. As, he said, they had no idea they would not survive the crash.

Thus, the asterisk marked footnote on pg.23, may or may not refer to a family feud, or one upmanship in a more sophisticated era marked by a worldly rise in family status; but I think it has more to do with his modus operandi than that his father's death in an aviation accident.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 07:20:25 PM by madupont » Logged
madupont
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« Reply #712 on: June 11, 2008, 07:30:29 PM »

Ps., in other words, he is not the "charismatic holy man" as many other Muslims both here and abroad, both women and men, have described him.

His righteousness about correcting wrongs does not extend  to loving his former neighbors in the family past.  Now, I could say that was just the way we differentiate between Christian doctrine and Arab custom in the harshness of desert life becoming a characteristic.  I don't know by observation  so far in my life.

Thus I often cringe when the anti-Muslim faction in any number of media blogs and forums accuse Democrats of describing presidential nominee Barack Obama in those same terms,"charismatic; holy, or a variation thereof".
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Bob
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« Reply #713 on: June 11, 2008, 10:51:27 PM »

All religons have factions and all religons have among them persons of radical beliefs and behaviors. Christianity in America suffers from the excesses of what used to be called the Radical Christian Right; Southern Baptists have some beliefs not generally followed by non-believers and we all know the controvery over Mormonism and its radical wing. Although none of the aforementioned advocates or calls for the death of non-adherants, they certainly condemn them to the depths of Hell. If we were to take the Bible literally, God would become a fire breathing harbinger of death, bringing retribution to those who won't believe in him, killing every man women and child at times and, with Job, killing his innocent sons and daughters to win a bet with The Satan. What I'm trying to point out is that Mohamedanism isn't the only religon which advocates or advocated death and destruction to infidels (non-believers)--just read a few books in the Old Testament. And to those who would object that we now rely on the New Testament, just remember the Crusades when they went to slay the infidels in the name of God--some of the bloodiest battles were fought there. Remember the Spanish Inquisition. Remember all the death and destruction in the English Reformation where thousands were killed because they were either Protestant or Catholic, depending on the Monarch involved. Historically Mohammed came 700 years after Christ. Historically its only hundreds of years since the Christians behaved the same way Moslem Radicals do today. Though Christians and Jews be people of the book, they're still infidels. Protestants and Catholics were people of the book and they killed each other in spite of it.

It is in the 1400's according to the Moslem calendar now. It was in the 1400's in the Christian Calendar (and well into the 1600's) when the factional fights occured in Christian Europe--its an interesting parallel.
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #714 on: June 12, 2008, 08:31:12 AM »

... and it is no secret that Hitler killed Jews in the name of Jesus Christ and of the Catholic church which stood by in near total silence as the atrocities took place.

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desdemona222b
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« Reply #715 on: June 12, 2008, 10:38:38 AM »

... and it is no secret that Hitler killed Jews in the name of Jesus Christ and of the Catholic church which stood by in near total silence as the atrocities took place.



Than, Hitler didn't exterminate the Jews in the name of Christ - he wasn't a Christian.  Most of the upper echelon Nazis were not - they were into bizarre Nordic cults and such.  Anti-semitism in Germany was deeply ingrained for several hundred years before Hitler came along - he bought into conspiracy theories about Jews and detested them as inferior beings.
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desdemona222b
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« Reply #716 on: June 12, 2008, 10:42:13 AM »

Bob -

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Southern Baptists have some beliefs not generally followed by non-believers


All Christians have some beliefs not generally followed by non-believers.  Wondering why you're mentioning Southern Baptists in particular as an ex-Southern Baptist. 
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madupont
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« Reply #717 on: June 12, 2008, 12:34:06 PM »

I think we are floundering. My point basically: being called "People of the Book", does not make us immune from political confrontations with Muslims about whose oil goes where, nor differences of opinion with them about our aggressive involvements in neighboring oil-producing countries who have been members of the Oil Cartel with Saudi Arabia.

(But both thanatopsy and desdemona are correct  in so far that in our past we were not in an exceptional position when the Third Reich decided to include us in their plans.  It strikes some people as odd but by the time that war was concluded(WW2), it was discovered that just as the gau or districts in Germany were governed, they had mapped us in the US, just as they had with Europe before they set about conquering, designating which areas were under the authority of which officials.)

Perhaps we should just proceed with what things that we've read, in Coll's biography of a family, that particularly strike us about their relationship with the House of Saud ?
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Bob
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« Reply #718 on: June 12, 2008, 06:30:46 PM »

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Wondering why you're mentioning Southern Baptists in particular as an ex-Southern Baptist.

No particular reason except I wanted to use a rather large demonination and they popped into my mind. At a different time I probably would have used anopther demonination.....If I offended anyone with my choices, I apologize.
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Bob
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« Reply #719 on: June 12, 2008, 06:51:27 PM »

Before we return to the book, I think it necessary to point out that Hitler was a Catholic

On March 23, 1933, Hitler addressed the Reichstag: "The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people." At one point he described his religious status: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."  (from article on Hitler's religon by Wikopedia, and citing John Tolad, a Hitler biographer as the source of the  quote "I am now as before a Catholic...")

He was a Catholic until the day he died. The Church took no steps to excommunicate him.

The SS wore belt buckles stating "God is with us." It was, in part, in the name of God regardless of their actual belief system--they proclaimed one of their justifications as lying  within their Christianity.  It was, after all, Christians who instituted and sustained anti-Semitism in Germany. Think also that one of the most power Popes in the 19th Century, Pius IX, was virulently and openly anti-Semitic. (And they now want to make him a Saint)
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