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Author Topic: Christmas - Separation of Church and State?  (Read 1277 times)
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2007, 06:11:27 AM »

Utley has challenged me to


That is not the question you wish to answer it so you throw up a bunch of horseshit. 

Why don't you engage us honestly, and defend your assertions, instead of dodging direct questions?

And it is a very fair question to ask.

Christians are responsible for their own holiday. The majority of Americans are Christians. If it means so much for a Christian to "decommercialize" the alleged birth of Christ, then by all means, let them get their own house in order.


So, again, "Why have churches not been able to influence their own flocks in order to ensure that the "true meaning" of Christmas stay in their hearts”?

Oh, and  this time, remember to be honest in your response.
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caclark
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« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2007, 05:01:27 PM »

Who owns Christmas?

That’s an easy one. It belongs to everyone with an opinion about it.

In a case regarding Christmas about three years ago, a municipal employee sitting at his desk saw a group caroling in front of a lighted tree on the city square. Hearing the call to civic duty, this conscientious public servant charged out of his office and ran out onto the square to politely remind everyone that this was a holiday tree, not a Christmas tree.

In another hilarious episode, a public school decided to exclude from its traditional holiday program, any song suggesting a religious theme or containing mention of Christmas. So Jingle Bells was in, Silver Bells was out; Winter Wonderland was in, White Christmas was out. Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer made the cut when a resourceful whiz tinkered with the lyrics changing the words from “….then one foggy Christmas Eve” to “then one foggy Winter’s eve Santa came to say….” That simple improvisation did the trick. Once they got the C word out of there, the song was judged suitable for the entire community and was included in the school holiday program.

I thought I’d heard it all until I heard of an anti-smoking activist who wants the words of Frosty the Snowman changed to no longer have Frosty with a corncob pipe, which he says sends a pro-smoking message to children. How did we ever allow something so insidious to sneak into a playful children’s song? While we’re at it, we might change the song title to Frosty the Snowperson to head off any controversy over gender neutrality.

Just how petty and stupid can people get? It’s a challenge to argue the ideal of a season of peace and goodwill where there is too little practice of live and let live. I’m not sure whether the issue of the proper place of Christmas in today’s world stems from brain dead political correctness or a new strain of good old American Puritanism trying to make a comeback. What difference is there between the two? Just don’t take the arguments from either side too seriously and you’ll find that the annual brawl offers comic relief from holiday stress.

Happy Chanukah and/or Merry Christmas to all in here who are amenable to such greetings of the season. Good cheer!
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barton
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2007, 12:19:27 PM »

"I thought I’d heard it all until I heard of an anti-smoking activist who wants the words of Frosty the Snowman changed to no longer have Frosty with a corncob pipe, which he says sends a pro-smoking message to children...."

It also sends an insidious pro-corn message, and we all know how dangerous corn syrup and other corn products are to the insulin levels of our children.  Not to mention the effects on our topsoil and water of growing all that corn on land that should be left as grassland.

 
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« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2007, 12:34:13 PM »

"I thought I’d heard it all until I heard of an anti-smoking activist who wants the words of Frosty the Snowman changed to no longer have Frosty with a corncob pipe, which he says sends a pro-smoking message to children...."

It also sends an insidious pro-corn message, and we all know how dangerous corn syrup and other corn products are to the insulin levels of our children.  Not to mention the effects on our topsoil and water of growing all that corn on land that should be left as grassland.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPBS7dVrE1U
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barton
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« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2007, 01:00:52 PM »

 Cheesy
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josh
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2007, 12:40:22 PM »

The vast majority of people who insist that Christmas has no religious significance are people who are Christian to one degree or another. It has religious significance. It is still about the birth of Christ, no matter how many stores are open that day.

A key example of this is government-owned recreation facilities. The State of New Hampshire owns two ski slopes. While most other ski areas are open on Christmas Day, the state owned mountains are closed, because it is a state holiday. This is not the same thing as the offices' being closed. If the state were truly closing everything but safety related functions because of low staffing, they would not pay tine and a half to keep the toll plazas open while skiing (pleasure!) is shut down.

To believe otherwise is the equivalent of believing that "In God We Trust" does not hold Christian meaning and that swearing your oath of honesty on a (Christian) Bible has no religious significance, either.

So, let us all call it Saturnalia and change the coinage to "In Gods We Trust" and see how many of those same "it isn't religious anymore" arguers object. Saturnlia Carols, Saturnalia (Say), Saturnalia presents.

Understand that I am not in favor of changing it to Saturnalia. That is still pushing one religion's holiday down other people's throats. But if you look at the to-do over burying Wiccan soldiers beneath grave stones of their choosing, of having services appropriate for them, you will see that we are still a country that has a hard time with the practice of 'no established religion,' even if we are better at it than most.
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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2007, 02:39:19 PM »

Fine post (#35),Josh.
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2007, 06:36:26 AM »

Huckabee is quite firm in his beliefs. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Except when one puts his presonal religious beliefs into public policy, as the Bush Administration has done. The Bush Admin has made sure that money for the so-called faith-based organizations has made its way into almost exclusively Christian hands.

Likely Huckabee would continue and expand this policy, which many argue is decidely unconstitutional.

Since our President swears to "faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States", he has to have the ability to put aside his religious beliefs and act first according to that Constitution.

To do anything less is to fail to meet his sworn duties, and in my belief, grounds for Impeachment.

When Huckabee puts out a political campaign ad like this one, I think we have a duty as citizens of the United States to call into question whether he CAN serve "all Americans" and the Constitution as POTUS.


Here's the link http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4013468
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josh
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« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2007, 12:49:24 PM »

Huckabee is quite firm in his beliefs. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Except when one puts his presonal religious beliefs into public policy, as the Bush Administration has done. The Bush Admin has made sure that money for the so-called faith-based organizations has made its way into almost exclusively Christian hands.

Likely Huckabee would continue and expand this policy, which many argue is decidely unconstitutional.

Since our President swears to "faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States", he has to have the ability to put aside his religious beliefs and act first according to that Constitution.

To do anything less is to fail to meet his sworn duties, and in my belief, grounds for Impeachment.

When Huckabee puts out a political campaign ad like this one, I think we have a duty as citizens of the United States to call into question whether he CAN serve "all Americans" and the Constitution as POTUS.


Here's the link http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4013468

I have some of the same fears that you do, but I will confess that this particular ad does not raise those hackles in me. I view it as the political ploy it is for Iowa. He has said some things that would give me far greater pause than that.

And... had he released "What really matters" at a time other than Christmas, that would concern me, as well. But, when it comes to Christmas, he's right. What is really important is the birth of Christ.
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kidcarter8
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« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2007, 12:55:48 PM »


 The Bush Admin has made sure that money for the so-called faith-based organizations has made its way into almost exclusively Christian hands.






That so?

Can you give examples where money was kept OUT of the hands of non-Christian groups?
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josh
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« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2007, 01:14:03 PM »


 The Bush Admin has made sure that money for the so-called faith-based organizations has made its way into almost exclusively Christian hands.

That so?

Can you give examples where money was kept OUT of the hands of non-Christian groups?

The former 2nd in command of Bush's Faith-based Initiatives office, David Kuo, does just that in his book “Tempting Faith.” Among other things, Kuo quotes an unnamed member of the review panel charged with rating grant applications as saying she stopped looking at applications from “those non-Christian groups,” as did many of her colleagues.

Mind you, Kuo's primary point is that the whole thing was primarily done to reach minority groups and to appeal to the religious right, but that it was never sufficiently supported to do more than provide political cover.
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2007, 01:32:25 PM »


 The Bush Admin has made sure that money for the so-called faith-based organizations has made its way into almost exclusively Christian hands.






That so?

Can you give examples where money was kept OUT of the hands of non-Christian groups?
You can wade through this PDF, if you’d like kiddo fro the Houston Law Review, which details the HUGE TILT towards Christian group:

http://www.houstonlawreview.org/archive/downloads/43-5_pdf/Kemp.pdf

Or you can follow up and look at this:

Representative Barbara Lee, a California Democrat, said last week that she wants the committee to follow up on an October report by the Boston Globe that the Bush administration has given 98.3 percent of the faith-based foreign-aid money to Christian groups and to examine whether faith-based groups are using taxpayer funds to help their proselytizing efforts.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/12/04/democrats_inspect_faith_based_initiative/



Bottom line---the government should not be spending money propping up ANY religions.
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kidcarter8
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« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2007, 01:37:49 PM »

And of course you consider this money spent as "propping up".

Why is a Christian group less worthy than a non-religious organization?
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liquidsilver
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« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2007, 01:40:00 PM »

Because faith-based recipients of taxpayer funds may choose to ignore federal employment discrimination laws, and instead, may freely discriminate based on race, religion, gender or any other factor.
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2007, 02:04:59 PM »

And of course you consider this money spent as "propping up".

Why is a Christian group less worthy than a non-religious organization?

ANY religious group should not be receiving cash from the government. That cash is used to propagate a faith, implicitly, if not explicitly, and when an Administration steers 98.3% of it towards disciples of his own faith, every American worth his weight in salt ought to have a problem with it.

That you apparently don't, speaks volumes.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 02:06:33 PM by MrUtley » Logged

Does anyone know where the love of God goes
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