Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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TrojanHorse
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« Reply #1350 on: July 31, 2007, 08:06:52 PM »

I'm nominating the Townes Van Zandt Ethnic Heritage discussion for Outstanding Digression of the Year.  


yes, particularly since "Townes" was a country/honkey Tonk singer/songwriter -- not at all related to Steve Van Zandt (of the "E" Street Band) and decidely "not" from Jersey.   He did not take his name from the county - but vice versa --  Van Zandt county Texas was reportedly named after his family-- prominent in the formation of the Republic of Texas.

We could however go much further and into how many famous artists have covered Townes' songs-- or even how many covered just Pancho & Lefty for starters...
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TrojanHorse
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« Reply #1351 on: July 31, 2007, 08:16:05 PM »

Mention Ingmar Bergman to anyone who is less than 50 years old and they don´t know him.


Him?   I thought it was a woman...   Didn't she play with Humphrey Bogart in that world war II movie?
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madupont
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« Reply #1352 on: July 31, 2007, 09:49:50 PM »

Trojanhorse  re:#1371

Yes, Springsteen is Dutch like Meryl Streep (those double E's) I had a Dutch fellow-poster in the Western Europe forum and National  Security occasionally for nytimes.come who works for "ing" in Amsterdam (or, is it Rotterdam? That seems like a long time ago. ) Have only run into him once or twice since  because of the French Elections (at The Guardian).

We had a very good relationship, same with another Nederlander who called himself "the flying Dutchman" and sometimes drifted down to the Lounge.

In fact among Europeans, we all got along swell except for the insinuation into the forums of a few "spinners" who claimed to be of Canadian(British Canada)origin and one almost internationalised Brit who really knew how to recruit spinners.

Otherwise we had a lot in common and they were sympathetic to our predicament with war and government administration and talked about their personal problems with Colonials coming back because in Nederland there is a very liberal policy until Muslim activities peeked there with a grisly murder and the general taunting that personally upset Dutchmen, Belgians too,with their family members(offspring) being attacked ontowardly. That was 2003 into 2004. They had often hinted that they didn't know how they would feel about us, if this over aggressive policy continued in the Middle East. They were very aware of our Constitutional situation.  Those were the hints....

By this Spring, I was chagrined to realize that yes, a change in the attitude had taken place. We were Americans who were not doing our part. How could we have allowed such a takeover of our lives? etc. Our friendships had somehow  severed because of where we live (and with whom we live, that they always knew was, and called, "the village idiot").
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jbottle
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« Reply #1353 on: August 01, 2007, 02:03:11 AM »

Invariably, the reevaluation of "O.C. & Stiggs" receives it's due respect from Rabes, in part I have to think from the revelations from oilcanboyd and others who have long complained that this is a film reveling in slapdash glee.  I really belive that he may have watched it out of a "scumbag lurker" on the NYTFF, that's just my take.  It may have faced the enevitable revisitation, however, I do not discount the contributions to the occasional brilliance and head-scratching thematic contemporary disgust that may have been considered by the numerous defenses of an imperfect film that deserves a worth reconsideration as belonging squarely in the oeuvre of Altman's nearly alcoholic disdain/alcoholism toward the mainstream commercial fare of the times.  It should be seen by Altman fans as a matter of course, but I consider it a lesser light of the teen genre if only because it was able to be made when having one's tongue firmly in cheek and so blatantly parodic in its frolic and detour from the genre, that the film is not more seriously examined, despite the whimsy that borders on moral chaos in it's audacious flights of satirical fancy.

http://www.avclub.com/content/blog/my_year_of_flops_case_file_54_o_c
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elportenito
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« Reply #1354 on: August 01, 2007, 08:19:33 AM »

Bergman and Antonioni, vintage both, gone the same day. Is there anyone of their cinematic stature around nowadays?.....I doubt it.


Vale Michelangelo!! ma che catzo faciamo adesso?.....
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martinbeck3
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« Reply #1355 on: August 01, 2007, 10:15:10 AM »

None Porteñito.Bergman and Antonioni where the two directors that named and filmed our deeper emotions and therefore made them visible to us.

I used to have a girl friend (but girl friend nothing else) who dragged me to cinema clubs and there used to be a group of people whom we usually met to discuss the films specially an older lady who was a genius at interpretations,Beatriz.

Towards the mid 70´s it started getting dangerous,you know, the Cosmos and all those cinemas were in the black list.

The first international prize Bergman got was at the Festival de Punta del Este in 1963.
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TrojanHorse
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« Reply #1356 on: August 01, 2007, 10:36:54 AM »

They had often hinted that they didn't know how they would feel about us, if this over aggressive policy continued in the Middle East. They were very aware of our Constitutional situation.  Those were the hints....

By this Spring, I was chagrined to realize that yes, a change in the attitude had taken place. We were Americans who were not doing our part. How could we have allowed such a takeover of our lives? etc. Our friendships had somehow  severed because of where we live (and with whom we live, that they always knew was, and called, "the village idiot").

What a shame. And I'm sure they think of themselves as very worldly by comparison to us.  They actually sound a bit shallow and non-worldly if they judge you personally by what they hear about your country in the media.

I never put that much thought about the surname Springsteen.  Assumed either German or Anglo-Saxon through England.  I know what you mean about "ee"s though, but spelling variations are so common in the English language that it could have been bastardized either in England before spelling was standardized (and almost everyone knew how to write) -- or even in the U.S. coming through Ellis Island for instance.

Dutch language is so similar to German, and yet, so many are offended if you mistake them for Germans (Meine Deutch ist nicht sehr Gut)--still holding a grudge from WWII I would presume (though that is probably not as true for the young).   
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TrojanHorse
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« Reply #1357 on: August 01, 2007, 10:44:37 AM »

They had often hinted that they didn't know how they would feel about us, if this over aggressive policy continued in the Middle East. They were very aware of our Constitutional situation.  Those were the hints....

By this Spring, I was chagrined to realize that yes, a change in the attitude had taken place. We were Americans who were not doing our part. How could we have allowed such a takeover of our lives? etc. Our friendships had somehow  severed because of where we live (and with whom we live, that they always knew was, and called, "the village idiot").

What a shame. And I'm sure they think of themselves as very worldly by comparison to us.  They actually sound a bit shallow and non-worldly if they judge you personally by what they hear about your country in the media.

I never put that much thought about the surname Springsteen.  Assumed either German or Anglo-Saxon through England.  I know what you mean about "ee"s though, but spelling variations are so common in the English language that it could have been bastardized either in England before spelling was standardized (and almost everyone knew how to write) -- or even in the U.S. coming through Ellis Island for instance.

Dutch language is so similar to German, and yet, so many seem offended if you mistake them for Germans (Meine Deutch ist nicht sehr Gut)--still holding a grudge from WWII I would presume (though that is probably not as true for the young).   
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barton
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« Reply #1358 on: August 01, 2007, 11:23:37 AM »

Saw The Simpsons movie yesterday.  The big screen does add something, not just scope for a longer narrative, but richer color and visual impact and, if you stay for the credits, hearing Maggie's first word.  And, if you stay to the very end of the credits (which I failed to do, so I learned this secondhand) some bizarre version of the Marseillaise, sung by the family.  So, the key point I am here to impart:  stay for the credits.  Don't be pressured to leave by the guys who come in to sweep up popcorn.  Don't spill any popcorn and they'll have no reason to disturb you.



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"Nothing more foolish than a man chasing his hat!"
madupont
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« Reply #1359 on: August 01, 2007, 12:55:00 PM »


trojanhorse, re#1378

 "never put that much thought about the surname Springsteen.  Assumed either German or Anglo-Saxon through England"


I didn't either because I didn't know who the man was (local phenomenon)until I lived in Jersey again after 30 years. Where it was commonly known that he was of Dutch ethnicity(as was Streep who came from perhaps a somewhat different social milieu).  You see, although we don't stop to think about it, the Dutch have been living there since the Seventeenth century. They founded Nieuw Amsterdam before it was New York and just gravitated across the Hudson to where they wanted to farm. You regularly encounter neighbours who are Dutch and English, Irish and Dutch, etc. and then there are the Native Americans who are any of those things and simply considered "poor relatives" as they live like everybody else. Over 300 years and upward toward 400 will do this in a community.

When I moved out to Princeton, I soon noticed an ad in the Princeton Packet that a little village known as Blawenburg in the vicinity north-west was having a "Tentoonstellung". If you took route 206, north of Rocky Hill it became momentarily van Horne road on the way to Harlingen(the names have become Dutch)but the village was definitely further west of there and off of rt.518.

A Tentoonstellung is a traditional fair and at this one you could buy nursery shrubbery and trees to put in before the coldest weather, bulbs of every kind, and women's handiwork,refurbished antiques, second-hand furnishings and clothing, and eat Dutch food. It was held on the church-grounds of a small country church to whom Louis XIV had sent a large church organ with pipes decorated in the royal color blue with gold fleur de lis as a "war reparation". The long pews facing the Gift had quilts on them because, in the days when the church was founded, farmers came in by wagon or cart and carried bricks heated on the hearth to keep them warm through the long church services. No central heating.
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madupont
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« Reply #1360 on: August 01, 2007, 04:29:00 PM »



Reply #1368

I was a half hour late to: Play It As It Lays but that didn't seem to make much difference. It sounded like Didion writes. It looked like the 1970s which was a far scarier L.A. than any ecological/social/catastrophic ideas we may have. The movie business as it remains today continues to produce the kind of personalities it did then; who are the way that they are because of the inconveniences you must endure to make films. And, Anthony Perkins by then had begun to resemble a young Philip Roth.

For all the Didion-Dunnes involved in this project, the director Frank Perry made one of my favorite Burt Lancaster films,The Swimmer, and something else that seems less important than that now. But it is he who must be responsible for the self-revelatory emotional investigations of Perkins character in Didion's dialogue unless she somehow had Tony particularly in mind. That's why the resemblence to Philip Roth. Well,
there's that too.

Not until after the film is over and you get curious about certain things do the facts come tumbling out. Some of which, you'd forgotten; some,you never would have known unless you were an actor.

Very few here would have ever seen a film starring Osgood (James Ripley Osgood) Perkins but Tony was the son of a film actor from the silent screen era, so there is no questioning motivation to follow one's father's profession.

Except that Osgood Perkins family went back about five centuries and were more recently Staunch New England types who don't usually go in for that sort of thing, setting Kate Hepburn aside of course. It's not like Osgood encouraged his son to do so, either. The motivation must have come entirely from Tony Perkin's own curiosity because his father died by the time that Tony was five.

There are those who feel that Tony died at a relatively early age but, that's until,you discover that Osgood was no more than 45 when he passed away of a heart attack.  Why did the actor wait to have a child until he was well established in his profession? I noticed that discrepancy between the year of marriage and the birth of their only child but it was the Depression which could account for it. Anthony Perkins was only a few years older than I was.  From then on,Anthony Perkins was enrolled and accepted in the very best New England schools.

That answered for me his interest in auditioning for roles in some of his very first films back in the 1950s, like Eugene O'Neil's--Desire Under the Elms, but get this: I saw a performance opposite Sophia Loren who was married to an old farmer whose son, Tony Perkins, falls in love with his father's wife.  Hmmm? Set in New England but things get more unusual when he does it again in one of my favorites from the Greek Classic Drama that was well adapted the Theatre Francais: Phaedre

This time opposite Melina Mercouri.

A pattern is being established. An actor born to an actor who dies before the actor to be is five. An actor who has an interest in roles in which he makes love to his father's wife.

Then, to my great respect for him, he went on to Kafka, working for Orson Welles in a role that I'm sure Whiskeypriest will be back anyday now to tell us what it is like in a bustling metropolis working at a relocation to a new job.

There was always work. Little that concerned me until -- Play It As It Lays, begins to reveal in Perkin's lines what it is like getting those parts.

We now get to the long phase in which a columnist who covers "Hollywood" party affairs remarks, on whatever occasion Tony escorted Natalie Wood,"Natalie would have; Tony would not."

His long term lover is Tab Hunter who goes on to play himself for Schlockmeister John Waters(not the same John Waters, whom Tammy Grimes mentions as depicted in Play It As It Lays, who was a well known porn star). But then, Rudolf Nureyev comes along. What a match. Poor Jamie Wyeth, sketching frantically backstage every gesture of a Nureyev whom the painter obviously adored,didn't stand a chance; nor did Mrs. Wyeth; nor Tab Hunter.

By 1981-82, Rudi, who did not care to socialize with anyone who was not also a celebrity, also did not pay particular attention to the possibility of HIV and, did not, until you find it quite disheartening to finally understand what gradually happened to his career as his health deteriorated and he could no longer dance up to his own reputation. Particularly so, disheartening, because he was a resolute friend to a number of ballerinas who were having career problems, one whom I found interesting because she suffered what we were discussing recently in Health and Nutrition. No longer the correct weight, at a moment when audiences decided fashionably that they liked the new featherweight primadancers with the emotional projection of heavyweights. It is like the old French canard, "the skinnier the woman, the more her nerves are closer to the skin and the more quickly she is sexually excited."

Nureyev died in Paris , where he had a fabulously Tatar apartment, and was buried, at Ste. Genevieve Cemetaire with his sarcophagus shrouded in a Turkoman rug.

Perkins married the grandniece of Schiaparelli ( I almost thought to mention to Harrie, that I like a spray of Schiaparelli nearly as much  as CoCo Chanel although it is a different mode; we women are so fickle.)and then, forming other long term relationships with other male lovers, he died.

And then just a day short of nine years later,Ms.Berenson, model, former wife of Anthony Perkins, died on a flight back to L.A. on Sept.11,2001

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TrojanHorse
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« Reply #1361 on: August 01, 2007, 05:31:58 PM »


although we don't stop to think about it, the Dutch have been living there since the Seventeenth century.

That is such a great point!  and you're right, outside of a completely historical context--we don't really connect the dots on that one.

You must have slept through the late 70s and early 80s though not to know who Bruce Springsteen was.
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TrojanHorse
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« Reply #1362 on: August 01, 2007, 05:36:41 PM »

I should think at the very least you should recall Ronald Reagan trying to cash in on Springsteen's popularity when Born in the USA came out during election year '84 and called him a great American...

It seemed the former President and advisors had misinterpreted the true meaning of the song...Bruce was none too thrilled as I recall.
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elportenito
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« Reply #1363 on: August 01, 2007, 05:48:16 PM »

martinbeck3:

"The first international prize Bergman got was at the Festival de Punta del Este in 1963."

Yeap, we discovered Igmar Bergman first, and made Gabriel Garcia Marques who he is by publishing his first book. Ah well, I guess we can now sit don under the ombu tree and just relax.
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madupont
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« Reply #1364 on: August 01, 2007, 06:57:15 PM »

trojanhorse, re" #1384 and prior post. 

I knew by '82, prior to that I was otherwise occupied; like a country. You understand of course that New Jerseyeans were themselves late to comprehend the Beatles.  About 1979, my now deceased ex-husband decided that he wanted to divorce so he could marry somebody else because that would be the polite thing to do, and the divorce was final with a formal appearance in court despite the hypocrisy and this coincided that same week with my father's death. Which amounted to the equivalent of being disinherited since I signed over anything that I would receive to my mother's support as we all did.

I played the job game down in pathology lab for a bit until I discerned that I had been hired to relieve two other employees in seniority who needed vacations; which meant, I was really temporary. My ex, also made it possible to not bother holding on to the farm-house because the realty market opened up on that whereas the owner had previously a tax write-off for eleven years, and my ex had been for some while at the perfection of his political endeavors, current role: land commissioner. We used to disagree a lot about things like 0% population growth, etc.
on the occasion of speaking about once a week as we had been separated for about 17 years.

There was now also a 17 % unemployment rate to deal with locally, so it became apparent that job-down meant apartment rent would not outlast the understanding with the electric company et al.  I opted for going "down country" where I could note that all the towns-people had exactly the same family names as Lake Wobegone across the river. No jobs in the general vicinity there either, in fact the guy at Health and Human Services told me how scared he was now that Reagan was closing down HHS offices, whether or not he would have a job somewhere much less knowing of one for me. I checked up the road another fifty miles north, compared to his job interviews 50 miles south, so there you have it, a hundred mile spread in the wilderness but the up to date super hospital which seemed to be managed by the Swedes had no openings either.

Notice, I have managed Reagan so we are getting closer to discovering The Boss.   I decided to go up the ridge, as pea-picking season was now coming on,and I picked crops, sometime weeding them like a football field length of itty-bitty greens, or how about cantalopes in conditions that can produce weeds the size of papyrus?  But nonetheless this seeme appropo since I really know my vegetables. Apparently, it was no mistake however that I didn't pick up a set of abandoned Arabic lessons at the free library, probably given away by my employer who had probably dropped out of school when his father bought him the 12 acres as a wedding present to a Latter Day Flower Child who had missed out on the first round(Never made it to Upstate New York! because she was in grade school?)  As you know how it turns out, although I had also studied an uncommonly "spoken" language, what a misnomer, in the long run it has been proven that the Bush bunch  were also uninterested in the functional ability to translate communications in Arabic and related languages. They much prefer translating message in English.
Works for them.

I said to myself, why not go back to New Jersey after three decades? The Jersey Shore however is something distinctly different than New Jersey. Once I really got that through my head, I decided life in Princeton might be fun; I'd been there once with Gerry Mulligan's Quartette. And I soon realized this would be an opportune time to say Thanks to a Chinese scholar who was the curator of Rare Books and Manuscripts brought from China before the Japanese invasion. For about five years he had loaned me anything that I wanted to research in the classics or, shu --(that is before I lost my farm-house)--through interlibrary loan, which mystified local librarians, and Shir Tung had done so simply to respect my teacher's merit as the translator of Tu Fu, the anti-war poet.  It is an old custom.

Oh, yes, by now I knew who the heck Bruce Springsteen is as well. I really did go buy vegetables and fruit at Colts Neck,N.J. Or, as somebody else says around here from time to time,"very well done, grass-hopper".

Now I have to go rag somebody about the Venceremos debacle of Mitt Romney.
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