Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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Question: What is the best show of the most anticipated new shows this fall?
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BorisBartenov
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« Reply #1155 on: March 14, 2008, 12:35:29 PM »

Yeah, I think Jin's alive on the island, given the date

http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2008/03/jins-tombstone-and-date-of-death-9-22.html

on the tombstone.  Jin's tears are not for his being dead, but for his being back on the Island, and her thinking that they can't go back and get him, so he's "lost" to her and won't see his child.  Curious as to why exactly Hurley says "Good!" when informed that no one else (who else?) has shown up for the gravesite visit.  Is he saying "Good" because this is all a staged thing for someone who is watching them, and so there are fewer wild cards as far as the "performance" goes??  Is Abbadon watching and they're doing this to throw him off?  My brain hurts.

I'm not sure how to read Capt. Gault's straighforwardness, if that's what it is.  Everything he says makes sense, and Sayid seems to think so, and I generally trust Sayid, so....I fall back on that position that Ben is basically one of the good guys (or Not So Bad guys, anyway), that someone else has faked the 300-plus bodies and the crash in the ocean, and that Widmore is genuinely trying to find out what really happened as is therefore naturally looking for Benjamin Linus for some pieces of the puzzle.  But, then if Widmore is really a good guy looking for all the facts, then why doesn't his Team Freighter seem to be more behind the whole Rescue Everybody concept?

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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #1156 on: March 14, 2008, 01:13:14 PM »

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But, then if Widmore is really a good guy looking for all the facts, then why doesn't his Team Freighter seem to be more behind the whole Rescue Everybody concept?

Maybe...

* For the reasons Ben interates, and/or

* There's concern for the ramifications to his boat and crew. And/or

* The whole situation has him too wierded out to do anything at all until they find out more about wtf is going on with that island.
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BorisBartenov
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« Reply #1157 on: March 14, 2008, 02:24:50 PM »

I like that last possibility, the more I think about it -- we have this Island that is magical (as in, esoteric natural phenomenon involving magnetic fields and warped spacetime) when you are on it, but which has this barrier of bad strangeness around it which is difficult to get through, and which erodes human sanity if you get stuck in that zone.  Team Freighter, at this point, is losing personnel and collective sanity, wants to get its engines fixed and back away from that barrier zone, before they try anything else.  Widmore, having purchased at that auction the captain's log of the Black Rock, may also have found something in that 19th century account to suggest caution (and which account may have heightened his interest in the Island).

The more I reflect on it, the more it seems to me that Jacob might date from the 19th century, be part of an early group of shipwreck (Black Rock) survivors who adapted to the Island and learned to live in some kind of harmony with its strange powers, and were the seed of the Native group that later recruited Ben (via the proto-Richard Alpert eyeliner guy) to help them get rid of the Dharmies (who they no doubt feared would exploit the Island in bad ways).  Jacob, like the later John Locke, had a knack for communion with the Island's energy, and so had evolved into some kind of mystical and ageless being who is sometimes visible (the famous 11 frames where he is seen in profile in the cabin, by Hurly, in the rocking chair) and sometimes off on his astral plane or whatever.  His cri-de-coeur of "Help Me" in the previous season might be the basic appeal to anyone who can help protect the Island from exploitative mad scientists, condo and spa developers, rather than just on a personal level as many have assumed (like, "help me, I'm stuck here with dead polar bear ghosts and they are such boring conversationalists....). 

Anyway, I'd really like to believe that Penny's dad is basically a decent person, as I believe her to be, and that both are basically Preservationists who want to know about the Island but also protect its unusual natural attributes and keep out Disney Corp., the Dept. of Defense, the TriLateral Commission, or anyone else who wants to exploit it.  But, then again, guys like Widmore....he could be part of a group of rich guys who want to live forever and have plans of harnessing that special magnetic whatsis towards that end.






 
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madupont
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« Reply #1158 on: March 14, 2008, 03:09:18 PM »

Yes.  The same woman who was earlier guarding the door to Sayid and Desmond's room, and reading a book upside down until Lapidus comes along and points out the problem.  I usually try to catch the book titles, but missed this one.  I'm guessing it's not a Philip K. Dick novel, but can't rule it out.


 That is like when I had to watch Jules et Jim several times to understand why Jim is loaned the book that Catharine has been reading. Although the book has really nothing to do with the menage a trois affair, would the film-maker not want to create the perfect touch by asking somebody to quick,fetch a copy of Goethe's, Elective Affinities ?

(in a sense, the plot might have a parallel but I thought that less interesting than the autobiographic story that became the film. Maybe Jules actually was reading Goethe--since he is the German--when he asks his wife,Catharine, where is his book; and she replies:"I loaned it to Jim". As such the title alone is symbolic representation of why the three chose each others friendship but implies more in the dialogue, spot on, because although they are intellectually the kind of people who,under the circumstances, would all read the same book, the dialogue moves unconciously Freudian from Jules's book that Catharine shares as his wife(her book too) who then shares all of that with Jim who is Jules' best friend.

                                  SPOILER ALERT

After she spends the night with Jim at a small Tyrolean "bed and breakfast", and after he returns the book, she has gone back home to  their chalet and goes right to Jules bedroom and wins him back to her side. Then she and her daughter, by Jules, see Jim off at the train depot as he goes back to Paris.  

He and his mistress will be awakened in the early morning hours by the claxon of one of those early model cars as Catharine drives in and out among the trees planted in the square beneath their apartment windows, somewhat later in the  progression which you make in your head because there has been a mix up in their letter correspondence where they think the other feels this way or that and they are always wrong but she had not heard from him in reply to her writing that she was pregnant from the last time they were together. She has come to Paris to take care of that and then lives in the most interesting old mill over a stream and when Jim shows up, she takes a few pistol-shots at him driving him away while dressed in her usual memorable pajamas.

From then on the motif repeats itself, as it has before although since we were new to their Three Musketeers routine we did not recognize it, the three go off for a country drive in the car after she reminds one of the men to bring her forgotten package from the house, and then they stop to dine at a country auberge where, upon getting out of the car, they find Albert, their wartime buddy, is the proprietor; after their meal when they intend to drive home, Catharine asks one of them to fetch her package tied with string, the usual memorable pajamas, walks off with them on Albert's arm back  into the auberge after telling Jules and Jim to pick her up the next day. Or, so we go merrily along, the lyrics she composed to Albert's song when the four of them and small child romp in the Tyrolean meadows.  You know how it ends.
                             ALERT OVER

(anyone know which of the three musketeers, Catharine is?  Save that for Film Trivia but only if you see the film. It may have been  my imagination but someone has more recently stolen the theme under guise that it is a common theme and made their own movie; but it slips in and out of my consciousness as to just who that was.)

Ps.Barton, did they leave you any clues when the Dragon was waved around, as to fire,earth (or,wood),air,water,or metal(?);  the Chinese use twelve animals times five elements in a cycle of Sixty years in relationship to the North Star directly over the Temple of Heaven in Beijing, which marks the center of the world.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 03:19:23 PM by madupont » Logged
harrie
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« Reply #1159 on: March 14, 2008, 03:54:54 PM »

Anyway, I'd really like to believe that Penny's dad is basically a decent person, as I believe her to be, and that both are basically Preservationists who want to know about the Island but also protect its unusual natural attributes and keep out Disney Corp., the Dept. of Defense, the TriLateral Commission, or anyone else who wants to exploit it.  But, then again, guys like Widmore....he could be part of a group of rich guys who want to live forever and have plans of harnessing that special magnetic whatsis towards that end. 

It's a very foggy memory, but I thought that Widmore was portrayed as definitely not a good guy in the Desmond-centric episode of last (?) year -- the one where we find that Desmond was a brother, brutha etc.  Didn't/doesn't Desmond hold Widmore at least partially responsible for his and Penny's being separated?  I dunno, will have to do some back reading. 

I also was thinking about the karma speech by Bernard, and how it might (in the future) apply to Julet. When she ratted out Sun to Jin, I know she was desperate for Sun to stay on the beach for her own good; but in my book a confidence is a confidence, especially when during the sonogram or whatever, she made a big point about doctor-patient confidentiality.  The hubby noticed Juliet was looking pretty beat up in last night's episode, as a result of last week's Tempest hijinks -- and he kind of wondered what Juilet would look like if Sun really whaled on her, for which I would not blame her one bit.

And more karma, but gone wacky. Is it just a coincidence that everyone but Kate has a rotten post-Island life?  Not that Kate's life was rosy, but she made a generous deal, lives in a nice house, wears nice clothes, has help, has to stay in CA, a large state (not like being confined to RI,for example) -- all in all, something I could likely live with. So Kate the fairly selfish murdering bank robber has it okay.  The doctor, who despite being a doofus most of the time, always has good intentions and has probably saved a number of lives?  Miserable.  Hurley, the sweetest guy in the world?  Miserable.  Sun, a basically decent person?  Now she's either a grieving widow or will never see her husband again and must live with the pain that her daughter will never know her father.  It's a whole new kind of karma or something. 

Also, was jealousy Kate's motivation for telling Sun that Juliet is not to be trusted based on the whole Tempest episode?  Previously I thought Kate was one to play her cards close to the vest in most cases, so I found her gossipy snarking (maybe) a little out of character and definitely unattractive.  I mean, as far as we know, she didn't tell anyone else the tale, so it doesn't seem like this is something Kate thought everyone should know, just selected allies.

And -- much as I love Jeremy Davies, I wonder why he was sent to the island to help retrieve Ben.  I mean, if it's a pure catch and bring back mission, I might have sent the large-ish, muscular guy on the boat -- I only know him as the two-way defenseman from Mystery, Alaska, sorry.  But Farraday doesn't strike me as being a lot of help to Lewis.  So if that's the case....why are those two really there?  Unless Farraday's sole function was to disarm the gas thingy, but that doesn't seem all that practical to me.

In the Honeymoon Suite on the boat -- the one with the huge bloody mess on the wall -- are we to supposed that the blood is from yet another cabin fevered crew member or something else?  The suicidal crew member is just too easy an answer, IMO. 

And just because Michael -- sorry, Kevin Johnson -- is "a" man on the boat, I'm still not assuming he's Ben's man on the boat.  Only when he comes out and says "By the way, I'm Ben's mole" or whatever will I believe.  Or maybe by next week.
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harrie
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« Reply #1160 on: March 14, 2008, 04:31:41 PM »

I wiki'd the boat Captain (John Gault) and got two responses that fit (and a bunch that don't seem to) -- and kudos to the writers for finding a double-headed red herring to throw in the mix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Gault
Captain Gault is a fictional sea captain created by English writer William Hope Hodgson. 
Captain Gault seems to be a captain for hire, and operates a different ship in each of the stories.... Gault himself is a morally ambiguous character who follows the pattern of many famous fictional criminals: although a law-breaker (he seems primarily interested in making money), he proves also to have a strict moral code. As the series progresses, we learn tantalizing bits of information about Captain Gault: he seems to be highly placed in a secret society; he has occult knowledge about arcane religious artifacts; he seems to be very knowledgeable about gemstones; he is a skilled amateur painter. In general, he reveals himself to have surprising resevoirs of specialized knowledge. Where he got all this knowledge is generally not revealed; we get only these tantalizing hints at the character's past.

The Captain Gault stories tend to follow several patterns. Most of the stories are about smuggling, usually involving a great deal of cleverness; often the plot centers around information that is known to Captain Gault but not provided to the reader. There is usually some kind of misinformation or even play-acting performed for the misdirection of customs officials. Sometimes the deception is in sleight-of-hand; sometimes it is in the Captain's choice of hiding place (which may be in plain sight). In many of the stories the customs officials or other law-enforcement personnel involved are told about the plot. Sometimes Gault's own confidants are fed misinformation so that they can reveal it, as part of the deception. The stories usually end with a smug Captain Gault explaining the plot, sometimes over dinner, and sometimes by letter.

AND....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Galt_%28Atlas_Shrugged%29
John Galt is one of the main characters in Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged. An engineer by trade, Galt is the male hero of the story; his actions include withdrawing his talents, 'stopping the motor of the world', and leading the 'strikers' against the 'looters'.

The son of an Ohio garage mechanic, Galt left home at age 12 and began college at Patrick Henry University at age 16. There he befriended Francisco d'Anconia and Ragnar Danneskjöld, all three of whom double-majored in physics and philosophy. They were the cherished students of the brilliant scientist Robert Stadler and the brilliant philosopher Hugh Akston.

After graduating, Galt became an engineer at the Twentieth Century Motor Works..... He began traversing the globe, meeting the world's most successful businessmen, systematically convincing them to follow in his footsteps; one by one, they began abandoning their business empires.....

Secretly, these captains of industry, led by Galt and banker Midas Mulligan, had created their own societya secret enclave of rational individualists living in 'Galt's Gulch', a town secluded high in a wilderness of mountains in Colorado. Dagny accidentally finds the town — and a shocked John Galt — by crash-landing a light aircraft while pursuing Quentin Daniels.

I tend to beware the Wiki, but sometimes it's handy.


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madupont
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« Reply #1161 on: March 14, 2008, 06:32:20 PM »

Harrie,

You did have the C.S.Lewis. Writer of Narnia, and The Indian in the Cupboard, etc.

Played by Anthony Hopkins, opposite Debra Winger in Shadowlands (which was also an earlier tv production played by Joss Ackland).
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harrie
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« Reply #1162 on: March 14, 2008, 08:07:56 PM »

madupont, Lewis and Farraday were easy - so yeah, I (and millions of others, I'm sure) got them right off the bat, no looking up needed.
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BorisBartenov
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« Reply #1163 on: March 15, 2008, 11:50:22 AM »

Love the Capt. Gault connection, yum, red herrings are tasty anytime.  And the Ayn Rand connections and correlations are just plain stupefying.  It's hard not to think that the writing team behind Lost is a well-read bunch of people.  Well, sure, I expect literary writers like John Updike or Joyce Carol Oates to be well read, but when you have tv writers who seem so literate it just takes the breath away. 

Re...

"And -- much as I love Jeremy Davies, I wonder why he was sent to the island to help retrieve Ben."

Many points you raise I have no easy answers, but I do think Faraday is sent to the island because the physics is so perilous and you want a physicist scoping things out -- his knowhow for neutralizing toxic gas is just icing on that cake.   And "Lost" is, after all, a series that plants itself firmly in the genre of science fiction, so it just seems natural for a heavy-duty Oxford science whiz to step onto the stage at some point.  I don't know how his character will play out, but we do now have a character who can potentially explain, perhaps as the series concludes, how this crazy ol' rabbit hole actually works.  I'm not saying that'll happen...it could end like The Prisoner, where a lot of questions remain unanswered or have highly ambiguous answers.



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nytempsperdu
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« Reply #1164 on: March 15, 2008, 09:19:05 PM »

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For the reasons Ben interates

By this did you mean the reasons Ben puts to Locke after he's been served his rabbit food (not salad, but actual rabbit), that people are trying to find the island, not to rescue the survivors of the plane crash but for the properties of the island itself, like whatever it was that made the formerly-wheelchair-bound Locke able to walk away (ahem, so to speak) from the crash.  Once the word was out, is the freighter part of the rush to the island to exploit it, an enterprise led by Widmore?

I must say I was glad to see Michael again, even if by another name, after seeing the actor's name in the credits all these weeks.

(And I thoroughly agree with those who decried the "Lost Madness" matching up of Hurley & Sawyer in the first round. Boo, hiss.)
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« Reply #1165 on: March 16, 2008, 01:35:42 AM »

Only seen the first season, but it appears to me that the whole thing could be related to the first book shown on the series, VALIS.  The working theory behind VALIS is that the universe consists of information.  Near the beginning of the book, there is an entry in Fat's "exegesis" that explains that our thoughts form a physical universe.  The brain is not unlimited, and so the universe created by information stored and processed by an individual's brain would comprise a closed system. 

After season one, it seems possible that the whole island, the past, present, future, the people, could be a universe, a closed system that exists only in Jack's brain.  Jack is the first person we meet in the beginning of the series, he seems to have more flashbacks than any of the other characters.  Jack is well educated and would understand enough about the philosophers referenced  on the show to flesh them out.  He would also have a good knowledge of literature coming from Columbia University with its excellent English courses which all undergrads are required to utilize.

But perhaps this is disproved in later seasons?  Don't mind spoilers.  We are watching the second season over the next few weeks.
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #1166 on: March 16, 2008, 09:25:48 AM »

Quote
For the reasons Ben interates

By this did you mean the reasons Ben puts to Locke after he's been served his rabbit food (not salad, but actual rabbit), that people are trying to find the island, not to rescue the survivors of the plane crash but for the properties of the island itself, like whatever it was that made the formerly-wheelchair-bound Locke able to walk away (ahem, so to speak) from the crash. 

Right - I think it's possible that Ben actually believes this is so.

Quote
Once the word was out, is the freighter part of the rush to the island to exploit it, an enterprise led by Widmore?

That part has me as much in the dark as anything. Exploit it, "research" it, and/or something to do with Penny? Ben's tape of Widmore abusing (killing?) one of his moles (?) is short and inconclusive IMO. Widmore could just as likely be victim of some facet of Ben's overarching schemes as the other way 'round. The fast-forward scene of Ben patching up Sayid after his sordid run-in with that very attractive girl has me guessing...
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harrie
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« Reply #1167 on: March 16, 2008, 09:58:19 AM »

After season one, it seems possible that the whole island, the past, present, future, the people, could be a universe, a closed system that exists only in Jack's brain. 

I (and milllions of others from what I read) hope this isn't a St. Elsewhere scenario.  Supposedly, the writers pay attention to what viewers say about the show -- which some viewers think is sooo cool, and which pisses other viewers off because it means the writers have no master plan.  But if the writers do consider viewer (I hate to say fan) input, I hope they veer away from the VALIS/St. E. angle. 

But with this season's flashes back and forward, Jack is integral to a lot (but not all) of the stories, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility.  Then again, I wouldn't rule out anything with Lost

All I know is, if Patrick Duffy shows up on the boat and heads for the shower, I'm outa  here.
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harrie
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« Reply #1168 on: March 16, 2008, 10:03:13 AM »

And was it painfully obvious to everyone else that Sayid was trying to decipher Morse code when he said it sounded exactly like someone was banging on the pipes?  The hubby was all "I can't believe you didn't pick that up" etc. 

I also think it's kinda funny that lots of times (maybe intentionally, maybe not) Sayid seems on the verge of saying something very important-- until he's interrupted, and the topic never goes back to "As you were saying, Sayid?"
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BorisBartenov
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« Reply #1169 on: March 16, 2008, 01:46:02 PM »

Several of the characters seem to be guilty of that, i.e. not saying something, not pursuing a topic one would expect actual people in such a situation to pursue.  Somehow, the overall writing and mise-en-scene rescues this from being obscurantism, but there are moments when I feel someone is being a little coy with me.

I don't think "Lost" is someone's dream or death vision or purgatory or whatever.  The theory had some life in the first season or two, but subsequent developments have made it fairly clear that we are watching something that is happening in the real world.  Still, the writers have teased us now and then, e.g. in episodes shortly following the blowing open of the Hatch (was that the Swan Station, I can never keep my station names straight....or the Pearl Station, whatever it was....), Locke is seen pulling off a copy of "Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" by Ambrose Bierce.  And even earlier there was the whole bit with Walt reading a comic book with a menacing polar bear and -- voila! -- the survivors run up against a polar bear.  Definitely a whiff of the old Twilight Zone "It's a GOOD Life" episode with boy Billy Mumy dictating the terms of reality to his small town in limbo.  Basically, you just have to enjoy being screwed with.



 
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