American History

[Bob]

Its difficult to comprehend why nobody put a stop to something they "knew" would be violent because we don't think in terms of going to the theater and throwing things at actors on stage and calling them all sorts of names--nor do we think of the theaters as having special sections for whores. Also Five points doesn't exist today. In that day and age gangs ruled the roost, there was no professional police force, just a bunch of thugs hired by the mayor in power to counteract the actions of the gangs--to keep the pot from boiling over too often.

Anyhow, if you want a modern analogy, think of Hockey up until very recently. Guaranteed there'd be the traditional swings of the stick and the fights between the players---Did anyone ever get arrested for assault, was the game ever cancelled--NOOOO!!!! The fans looked forward to the fights, it was part of the sport--Time outs were the penalties...So it was in the theaters of the 1840's. Macready helped end it--that's one of his contributions to the the history of the theater. And Fernando Wood, for all his corruption, gave NYC  its police force (after a few violent Christmas riots). (He also gave us Boss Tweed)....

I suppose  in an effort to bettter understand the goings on then we should read a good history of Tammany Hall, or the book FIVE POINTS, by Tyler Anbinder, which I found very informative. THE GANGS OF NEW YORK by Herbert Asbury is old but very good also.

[Bob]

My favorite book on Tammany Hall is M.R. Werner's book TAMMANY HALL. Its one of those books you can't put down and he is good at story telling. For instance here's one from the when Fernando Wood was Mayor:

It was during Fernando Wood's administration that the City Hall of New York was sold at auction to satisfy a judgement of $196,000 which Robert W. Lowber obtained fraudulently against the City for a plot of ground that was estimated to worth  only $60,000. lowber  demanded that the City Hall with all its furniture and paintings must be sold to satisfy his judgement. Daniel  F. Tiemann, later Mayor of New York bought City Hall for $50,000 and was reimbursed  by the City.  (Werner, TAMMANY HALL at 85)

Only in New York can you get history like that

[Bob]

Perhaps you are thinking of the memoirs of one George Washington Plunkitt as told by William Riordan:
Plunkitt of Tammany Hall, a Series of Very Plain  Talks on Very Practical  Politics, Delivered by Ex-Senator  George Washington Plunkitt, The Tammany Philosopher, From His Rostrum--The New York County Court House Bootblack Stand--and Recorderded by  William L. Riordan 1905

OR

TWEED'S NEW YORK  ANOTHER LOOK   by  Leo Hershkowitz  (1977)

Or

"BOSS TWEED"   THE STORY OF A GRIM GENERATION  by Denis Tilden Lynch   1927

The latest of course id Ackerman's  BOSS TWEED--- THE RISE AND FALL OF THE CORRUPT POL WHO CONCEIVED THE SOUL OF MODERN NEW YORK.  His bibliography is decent and might help you....Hershkowitz also has a good bibliograpy (ending in 1977)

[Bob]

I forgot this one:

Mandelbaum, Seymour J., BOSS TWEED'S NEW YORK. New York: Wiley, 1965.

[thanatopsy]

''Honest graft'' was coined by George Washington Plunkett. The 'little treatise' is the one RW refers to by Riordan -- an excellent book, indeed!

We discussed Tammany Hall to some extent when he read Ackerman's Boss Tweed.  Asbury's Gangs of Old New York remains one of my all time favorite books. As someone who is totally obsessed with the history of old New York, I'll gladly read any book on the Five Points or Ned Buntline's fiction (I recommend his Miseries and Mysteries of New York) for this forum.




Forgotten New York:  http://www.forgotten-ny.com/

... scroll on down to 'neighborhoods' and see how my old neighborhood, East New York, shapes up when compared to yours. You may also want to read Irving Shulman's The Amboy Dukes which remains as relevant today as when it was written in 1947.

[Bob]

I don't know that one, but here's a good article that might put you on the track of the title:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/3

[thanatopsy]

here's a slightly better intro into that subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Beneath-American-Renaissance-Subversive-Imagination/dp/0674065654

[thanatopsy]

Cliff's Epilogue + End Notes

"the Bard ... served his purpose ... which was to forge a brave new world."


Sorry Mr Cliff, but that is the most chauvinistic crapola I have ever read in my life and spoils what was a rather good book.  The author concludes his book with a largely sympathetic portrayal of Macready with some nasty words about Forrest.  Obviously, he is not too enamored of the USA.

[thanatopsy]

In reading Cliff once again I was reminded of Washington's warning: do not engage in any foreign entanglements.  Perhaps the good President should have mentioned cultural as well as political entanglements.

Cliff does a good job of proving his thesis that Shakespeare had a tremendous socio-cultural impact on the USA populace in that era. ''It is impossible to overestimate the extent to which Shakespeare trampled over 18th + 19th century creeds''. {fn p 280}  After reading the book and the many references in it, I am forced to concede that he is correct.  But such a cultural overreach was unnecessary as this was the era of the American Renaissance.

Yes, Forrest, Buntline, Rynders, the loco foco, and the b'hoys could all have set a better example for the high brow British critics as Melville and Whitman demanded. And while a political severance as demanded by Washington with the Old World may not have been entirely possible, a cultural severance could well have been achieved. As Melville noted, ''Shakespeare, he said, was sure to be surpassed by an American, but that would only happen if the superstition of the Bardolatry was allowed to die away''. {p 288}  And this could have had happened if Duyckinck's words had been heeded!  All we needed to do back then was to realize that the American aesthetic was emerging (art, music, literature, folklore, dance, songs, et al) and that we could have recognized that those works of art are worthy of being cherished with the same ardor as any world wide aesthetic forms. Had that happened, had there been that cultural severance, there would not have been any violence at Astor Place.  The cultural severance could well have enabled the political severance  demanded by Washington. If we had had that, the  political mess created by Bush and his fellow warped minded conspirators, like those created by previous entanglements, would not have happened. America would definitely be at Peace ...

[Lhoffman]

My disagreement with Cliff was not so much his snobby attitude to Shakespeare, but his snobby attitude about art in general and about who goes to plays and concerts.  He seems to want to perpetuate the myth that only upper class people go to these entertainments.  I don't know what his motivation is, but I'm sure he knows that this just isn't so.  In his position as critic, he would have had to attend many performances, and unless he was chauffer driven to the theatre at the very last moment and ushered directly to his seat through some secret passage, he would have observed that people of many classes attend the theatre.  This is true in America, and just as true in London.

[Bob]

With the price of plays in New York its a wonder even the snobbish still go. Its getting more and more difficult to expect  even middle class people to attend at the prices they charge. Anyhow, that's not a comment on Cliff, just a personal observation.

[Bob]

I see the book as pointing out what is written on page 248...I'll quote it in part lest I venture too far and violate copyright laws:

The riot  seemed to be the fault of  everyone and no one.  It was the fault of Macready's father, for educating his son  as a gentleman and going bankrupt. it was the fault of the theater profession for instilling vanity and insecurity in its practitioners. it was the fault of the English writers, for stomping over American esteem. It was the fault  of several American States, for causing Americans to be reviled as debt dodgers. It was the fault of journalists, for whipping up partisanship to sell newspapers. it was the fault of the British government , for its disastrous Irish policy. It was the fault of Jacksonian  politics for pandering to gang leaders. It was the fault of the upper ten, for building an opera house in a provcative location. It was the fault of the new Mayor, unversed in crowd control. It was the fault of the irresistible flows of capital and poulation that had carved out  a resentful and often violent  underclass. And, yes, it was the fault of Forrest, for bullying his way to self vindication, and of Macready, for defending his respectability to the bitter end.

In short, a pox on all their houses. The  behaviors of the audiences were enough to start riots. Both the British and Americans are equally at fault  in this area. This thing was larger than Forrest and Macready, who were merely symbolic of the American situation as it existed in the late 1840's. Had ther been no Forrest and Macready there surely would have been an Astor Place riot somewhere, at sometime during that era. The riot arose out of cultural immaturity, not out of the dispute between two Shakespearians.

[Bob]

Having said all that I think it was a very good book. I like books like this which take what are now considered obscure events and present them as as a manifestation of life in  America  in a given era. Another good one is THE BURNING OF NEW YORK.

[Bob]

Sorry Mr Cliff, but that is the most chauvinistic crapola I have ever read in my life and spoils what was a rather good book.  The author concludes his book with a largely sympathetic portrayal of Macready with some nasty words about Forrest.  Obviously, he is not too enamored of the USA.

AHHHH, I don't know...I think both guys deserve a certain amount of censure. But I like the way you express yourself--there's no doubt where you stand.

[Bob]

I was looking at the suggestions for the next book. I like the Truman book suggested by Dzimas (that's because I'm a Presidential freak of sorts and because I was going to buy it when it first came out, but didn't.)


I also like the book thanatopsy just linked t for other reason--the one about  American Rennaissance (boy, I sure murdered that word). Let me link to it again. It looks like a good subject

How about some  other suggestions....