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Author Topic: American History  (Read 29354 times)
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madupont
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« Reply #285 on: June 07, 2007, 08:57:28 AM »

Bob,

One more news item on an old subject before your new reading begins.

This just in this morning:Descendants of Madison's Slaves to Meet
By NATASHA ROBINSON   http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Montpelier-Slave-Reunion.html

http://www.montpelier-reunion.org/

Ps/I just know that I should have posted the review  on Nixon & Kissinger
from The New York Times but I got lazy yesterday and didn't get back to it.  Will do. Heads up, snyggkul.
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #286 on: June 07, 2007, 03:20:59 PM »

The Shakespeare Riots looks good.  The first chapter has some of the best writing on the meaning of Shakespeare that I've seen.

Also some highly entertaining anecdotes.
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #287 on: June 07, 2007, 03:22:45 PM »

With regard to SHAKESPEARE WARS , why don't we start the discussion on June 20th--that'll give everybody a chance to get the book and read it.

Shakespeare Wars = Shakespeare Riots. 

I read the Shakespeare Wars and truly wish I hadn't.
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weezo
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« Reply #288 on: June 07, 2007, 03:28:34 PM »

Bob,

I'm reading a book you recommended, "Into the American Woods" Negotiators on the Pennsylvania Frontier. Now I know why so much stuff around Reading is named for Conrad Weiser! (I probably learned about him in school, but all I can remember is William Penn and the Walking Purchase - that stayed with me.)

Thanks for the recommendation. I don't think I will get the Shakespeare Riots. Not much for theatre. Plus, I've got several books to read now, and will participate in the discussion on Fiction. This week hubby is away, and I'm busy updating my Famous Americans pages - short summaries of lots of folks from history. Just finished doing Bojangles, Teddy Roosevelt, John Adams and need to finish James Monroe and James Madison before bedtime.

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madupont
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« Reply #289 on: June 07, 2007, 06:47:17 PM »

snyggokul
Reply #345

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/13/books/review/Lawrence-t.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=3e1ec6e71c272824&ex=1181361600

Here is the page for the review of : Nixon and Kissinger

I should try and shorten this down with a tinyurl.

http://tinyurl.com/2pk5s2

You can go to --

http://tinyurl.com/create.php

anytime and shorten those long web-site "urls"

Now, if we could do the same with the 700 plus pages to this tome.

Do you have a library in your area that might be bringing in books of this kind in English,before they are translated, you might be able to request it  which would give you a chance to look it over and decide whether you want to order it to travel that distance at this time. I used to do that just by very good luck have it travel to me on interlibrary loan (not from Mr.Kissinger's library)and then I would take desperate notes for three days before I had to return it to my local small town library. That is why I said "from the other side", because I was observing and witnessing some of these events as they occurred and made major decisions accordingly.

As you notice in the review, Dallek's reviewer does not hesitate when he remarks about the involvement of Mr.Kissinger in his advice to Nixon about policy toward your continent, which had widespread effects continuing for many years after that. Which I would say had to do with Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney's close friendship with each other at the time that Nixon was impeached and Gerald Ford had to be shown the ropes. Presenting themselves in somewhat "a Scooter Libby function" as it has been to (now) vice-president Cheney, they advised the new president in exactly the direction the party wanted things to go. He was then put in Kissinger's hands for a tour, including Indonesia, after which the Indonesian airforce attacked East Timor (a Portuguese colony) with weapons bought with  US tax-payer money; the only stipulation made to the Indonesian government was to wait on the attack plan until Kissinger had escorted Pres.Ford safely back to Washington,D.C. totally unaware of the connection. The parallel is obvious as to what occurred as a result of the School of the Americas operating in Fort Benning,Georgia.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 06:52:59 PM by madupont » Logged
Bob
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« Reply #290 on: June 07, 2007, 08:46:43 PM »


I'm sorry, the book is SHAKESPEARE RIOTS-----Sorry!!!
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #291 on: June 07, 2007, 09:11:23 PM »


I'm sorry, the book is SHAKESPEARE RIOTS-----Sorry!!!

No need to be THAT sorry....it's not like you wrote the other one Wink
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 09:14:23 PM by Lhoffman » Logged
snyggokul
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« Reply #292 on: June 07, 2007, 11:13:58 PM »


(...) Now, if we could do the same with the 700 plus pages to this tome. (...)

(^.^) Heh. Thank you for the link ! Good review by the history professor from Univ. of Texas.

Quote
Do you have a library in your area that might be bringing in books of this kind in English, before they are translated, you might be able to request it which would give you a chance to look it over and decide whether you want to order it to travel that distance at this time.

Ha ! Wishful thinking... Forget about libraries in Brazil, mad; most of them are jurassic, and even the good ones -- such as those at Univ. of São Paulo -- wouldn't have such a recently published book -- in Portuguese, let alone in English !!! It's a totally different reality here; if I wanna read it, I'll have to buy it, for there is no other way. My fave boostore here has the book for the equivalent to some US$29.  Not cheap, but not terribly expensive either, so I'll have a look at it next time I go there and decide.

 Sad Boy... Do I miss the American libraries...

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As you notice in the review, Dallek's reviewer does not hesitate when he remarks about the involvement of Mr.Kissinger in his advice to Nixon about policy toward your continent, which had widespread effects continuing for many years after that.

Oh, yes, it really did , and I believe that Dallek only sees their "fear that a leftist government in Chile might inspire radicals throughout Latin America" as “nothing more than paranoia.”, as the reviewer mentions, because Dallek was not here in South America at the time, for that was a very real threat then.

I am not saying that the American help to bring Pinochet to power in Chile -- OR the military government in Brazil -- was exactly the right move, but something had to be done or most of South America would have become part of the Communist block. I dread to think how far less developed Brazil would be now, had this happened. On the other hand, we now have all possible freedom of speech, a leftist government in power democratically elected -- and , BTW, re-elected -- by the people, a much more stable currency and economy, AND violence in big cities already spreading to smaller towns and corruption in Congress to such despicable levels that MANY here have started to miss the time when this country was ruled by the militaries...

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madupont
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« Reply #293 on: June 08, 2007, 12:48:01 AM »

Merely the dead.

It became a borderless campaign; from the near view it appeared --if you are quite sure that is Dallek and not his reviewer: "fear that a leftist government in Chile might inspire radicals throughout Latin America", and overlay what is current with the dogma that a domino effect would envelope Crawford with the influences of Fidel Castro?

When from the further distance, "the influence of the French radicals can not be allowed to become a fashion. Obviously, it is necessary to eliminate Regis Debray?"

You have got to be kidding. That sounds like something said in an alley in Pakistan about Danny Pearl.

Okay, so I think that I'll go read Roberto Bolano while I check the rhubarb.
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Bob
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« Reply #294 on: June 08, 2007, 05:09:16 PM »

Last week in another site a discussion was begun on Alan Taylor's AMERICAN COLONIES. The discussion over in the other site involves maybe three people including myself. Dzimas suggested and I agree that the discuss would do better over here. There are more people here, there a greater ease to post and to keep track of things. So look for a thread entitled AMERICA COLONIES and feel free to join in whether you've read the book or not. It covers American Colonial History and its excellent.

We will start THE SHAKESPEARE RIOTS as scheduled on June 20th using a separate  thread--so for those of you reading that book (which I just bought and will start after I finish GERTRUDE BELL) that discussion will begin on schedule.


So, on the 20th we will have two threads going: one in progress for AMERICAN COLONIES  and the new one for THE SHAKESPEARE RIOTS.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #295 on: June 09, 2007, 12:31:41 AM »

Amazon has been tempting with Roberto Bolano for the past month, but have too many unread books on the shelves to order any more at the moment. 

I will dig into American Colonies this weekend.  I hope others feel free to post on the subject since it deals with colonial as well as pre-colonial America.  In the first chapter, Alan Taylor explored the pre-history of America, noting the various native groups like the Anasazi, and the cultures that were in place long before the Spanish arrived.
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Bob
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« Reply #296 on: June 09, 2007, 08:45:02 PM »

After being poked  and prodded for a few hours (and tested for just about everything), my pre-operative tests are now completed. I spent the morning drinking strange concoctions and being wired up and scanned and needled to near death....Now I  have four days of peace before I need to do one last prep--and then the knife.....

Anyhow, I'll be ready to get back to regular posting tomorrow, after I re-review the start of theTaylor book.

While taking all those tests this morning  I was reading GERTRUDE BELL, a very well written book about a very extraodinary person. I'll relax the rest of the night with it and get some well needed sleep---be back tomorrow.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #297 on: June 10, 2007, 11:15:33 AM »

Taylor paints a Zinn-like portrait of the encounters between early American explorers and the indigenous people of the continents.  He amplies illustrates the biological and ecological warfare that took place, in addition to the brutal slaughter.  He covers the various conquests in sufficient detail from Columbus on Hispaniola to Cortez in Mexico to Coronado's raids into the Southwest.  Taylor briefly mentions Cabeza de Vaca, who underwent a metamorphosis after Narvaez's mission ran aground in Florida.  I don't think de Vaca gets enough treatment by historians, as he was one of the few Spanish conquistadors who was actually forced to make terms with the native population and according to Taylor actually inspired a change in policy by Spain, even if it was hard to enforce in the new territories.  After de Vaca, more attempts were made to reach out to the natives, notably that of de Casas.  Nice site devoted to him,

http://www.lascasas.org/index.htm

I have his book, In defense of the Indian, which I've been meaning to read for a long time.

It was also interesting the way Taylor contrasted the French and Dutch approach to dealing with native populations, as opposed to the Spanish approach.  Of course the situations were very different, but one gets a sense as to why Canada as a whole has had better relations with its native population than has the US and Mexico.
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madupont
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« Reply #298 on: June 10, 2007, 12:20:02 PM »

I was thinking about this earlier because of a remark in Immigration forum, and true the French went in picking up languages in the North; but oddly, it was the Native population itself that ended up speaking perfect French or near-perfect. They had, I have to think, a practiced ability in picking up other languages, other variants on the same thread of family languages, etc. before the French had even arrived.

But all these centuries later, there is still something happening in the border area that smacks of Wounded Knee, as I mentioned before. The same setups are going on to antagonize the Native American population on the Ontario or "English" border and those tribes are becoming more belligerent.
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weezo
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« Reply #299 on: June 10, 2007, 06:28:30 PM »

Maddie,

I suspect that you are right that Native Americans were more facile in learning languages. Perhaps because there were so many in their neighborhoods. I'm reading "Into the American Woods" by James H. Merrell, and he points out that the Natives often learned enough English to trip up the Pennsylvanians at the councils and treaty meeting. They also could converse with the French on the other side of the mountains. But, as a matter of right, they demanded that the Pennsylvanians conduct business with them in their language. It is interesting to learn how wampum was made to talk and its limitations. The Natives were anxious to learn reading and writing, but the Pennsylvanians, beginning with William Penn, discourage and even forbid their learning, insisting that they listen to what was read to them, even if it wasn't exactly what was on the paper, as the Natives learned in the future when their understanding of a land deal could not be proved, but they remembered the original agreement differently from what ended up on the paper.

And, you are right. On the immigration list there are some who are making a big deal about immigrants learning English, as if immigrants have always learned the existing language before or immediately upon arrival on these shores.
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