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Author Topic: American History  (Read 29360 times)
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weezo
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« Reply #465 on: July 04, 2007, 04:42:17 PM »

And, Anti-Catholic sentiment is on the rise again.

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madupont
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« Reply #466 on: July 05, 2007, 01:58:24 AM »

Why?
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weezo
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« Reply #467 on: July 05, 2007, 04:11:08 PM »

Mexicans are typically Catholic and sometime back, I saw a post by an anti-immigrationer (can't remember which) who said that the increase in the number of Catholics was a concern. I have no idea why, I just let the statement slide. Perhaps whomever it was will speak up again and explain their concern.


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thanatopsy
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« Reply #468 on: July 05, 2007, 05:00:06 PM »

I got some hint of that sentiment when reading of some hate filled reich winger who expressed concern over the loss of influence by televangelist types. This was on some web forum a while back.  He knew that Catholics typically concern themselves with injustices, especially to the poor, whereas televangelists concern themselves with welfare for the rich and warmongering. The loss of privileges for the wealthy and the thought of pursuing peace was too much for him. Of course, he insisted that corporate welfare and warmongering was good for everybody but didn't quite express himself that way.

Therefore, the thought of increased anti-Catholicism should not come as a surprise.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #469 on: July 06, 2007, 07:51:08 AM »

Funny, because many of the Right-wingers today are Catholic conservatives like Buchanan and Hannity.  Mel Gibson has become notorious for the conservative Catholic church he set up in southern California.  Here is a piece on Sectarian Catholicism and Mel Gibson,

http://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/2004Symposium/Lawler.htm

What is strange to me these days is how the radical right has been able to forge a Judeo-Christian bond, which reached its zenith in its show of support for the Sharon regime in Israel a few years back.   I think much of this bonding is the result of the strong anti-Muslim sentiment that runs through the radical right,

http://www.baptiststandard.com/2002/11_11/print/israel.html

Notice that Olmert was mayor of Jerusalem at the time.
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Bob
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« Reply #470 on: July 06, 2007, 10:45:01 AM »

The phenomenon (sic) of a Catholic/Protestant get together arises from a unity on the abortion issue. To me fundamentalists, evangelicals and conservatives in general are united on this. Add to this a general unity regarding getting back to literal interpretations of the Bible and you get this  strange amalgamation of hitherto estranged religons.

I'm not as familiar with the Judeo/Christian bond. I'll look at the link you provided.
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Bob
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« Reply #471 on: July 06, 2007, 10:57:00 AM »

There are also deep divisions within the Roman Church. Note that Benedict is awfully conservative, almost fifteenth century in his outlook on some issues. He seeks a return of old traditions and beliefs, while other parts of the Church continue to be very liberal, very open to change. Benedict has reversed several changes allowed by John Paul. Reportedly he put his foot down regarding the Church in South America. It'll be one hellava conclave after he passes. (He also reversed John Paul's ruling allowing for a majority of cardinals to elect a Pope. It's back to the 2/3 rule the next time around)

I agree, though, that there is a rise in anti-Catholicism stemming both from the fundamentalist stands as well as from recent Spanish immigration. The original wave of anti-Catholicism goes all the way back to the founding of the colonies. The  first real one on the United States History stemmed from the rise of the Anti-Masons. The movement eventually condemed all "secret societies," which of course included the Knights of Columbus and the Church itself (because there was a surge in the concept of openness and democracy in the 1830's and the Church was not only not  "open and democratic"  it was closed and authoritarian--Catholcs were thought to be at the beck and call of the Pope--thus their loyalty was questioned).
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madupont
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« Reply #472 on: July 06, 2007, 11:47:25 AM »

dzimas, re:#537
Mel Gibson has become notorious for the conservative Catholic church he set up in southern California


NOT ONLY THERE. In his case, personally, in the family, given his father's outlook, that inspiration smacks a bit more of Anglicanism; unless the Roman church has taken to accepting into the priesthood those men who have grown sons alive and well; that could be, for all I know, as some kind of a statement among widowers?

But we also have a congregation regionally to appeal to the red staters on one side of the Delaware River, so they can travel across to the New Jersey side every Sunday for the fix of that old time religion.

Bob can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what is referred to as the Tridentine adaptation of Roman Catholicism.  At first, it never occurred to me that they had set up shop for other reasoning than for people to come and reminisce about when the Church used to be respectably Solemn, inducing reveries of mysticism, ceremonies, sacramentals, Gregorian music, and fish on Friday, twice a week during Lent.

By now I realized, they needed to attract the numbers for a valid parish to stand up to the Archdiocese of Philadelphia.

So whether they will institute Bingo, or Novenas on Tuesday nights, is a toss up.
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madupont
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« Reply #473 on: July 06, 2007, 12:14:41 PM »

Mexicans are typically Catholic and sometime back, I saw a post by an anti-immigrationer (can't remember which) who said that the increase in the number of Catholics was a concern. I have no idea why, I just let the statement slide. Perhaps whomever it was will speak up again and explain their concern.





Knowing the discussion to which you refer, I rather suppose their unstated point was because of their having been so pointed about it before and what they are concerned about is the reproductive facility of anti-abortion Catholics who happen to be Illegal Mexican Immigrants.

On the other hand more and more common in the last several decades in larger cities are Evangelical Mexicans, a recognition that it took my mind awhile to wrap itself around.

Which reminds me, have to go back to Bob's post....

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Dzimas
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« Reply #474 on: July 06, 2007, 12:25:54 PM »

Maybe Columbus was right?

BONN, Germany (AFP) - The world is smaller than first thought, German researchers at the University of Bonn said on Thursday.
They took part in an international project to measure the diameter of the world that showed it is five millimetres (0.2 inches) smaller than the last measurement made five years ago.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070705/sc_afp/germanyscience_070705151649
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madupont
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« Reply #475 on: July 06, 2007, 01:14:02 PM »

Bob, re:#539

"Benedict has reversed several changes allowed by John Paul. Reportedly he put his foot down regarding the Church in South America."

I've been too far removed in time from the papal succession, despite the subtle and very even-handed proselytisement of a kindly German in the former Western European forum of the nytimes.com, to know where each of these Shepherds stood on the major issues of South America; but, obviously the Church stood fast with the class origins of its more influential patrons throughout Latin America when the military political crackdown on very randomly supposed dissidents began to occur in the 1970s and continued through most of the Eighties at the behest of certain US Republican interests.

Thus somebody would have to clarify for me whether Benedict brings us an improvement, or does he see the spread of proletarian betterment through the large northwest sector of South America as a threat to his authority?

I am however informed by one of our former posters recently returned that the sort of things that you and I saw in both New Jersey and the Midwest German American urban areas with the bund, which we discussed when Philip Roth's ,Plot Against America, came to discussion, has now returned with all its organized social ramifications of educating the younger generation (in places like Argentina and Brazil )through recreation and sports and holiday amusements; thank god, at least I've begun to actually forget the German motto that was bandied about at the beginning of the Third Reich to keep people distracted by their own personal enjoyments and perquisites as citizens, so that they barely noticed  the impending atrocities because they'd lost the discrimination to determine that these things were happening to people who were not criminals.

Guenther Grass referred to this privileged indulgence, in his novel about the Baltic area and the cruise ship that had an accident meeting up with a torpedo, Crabwalk, as he reflects back from his age as a member of his generation to describe the antics of the younger computer generation conducting the same ideological arguments and the actual physically violent clashes that result, as they had when determindedly marching through the streets in short pants carrying placards on staffs with which they could beat up  any passerby who disagreed with their fascist premise.

What people often fail to see is that this organizing capacity when decorated in cultural "continuance" because(while pointing to the children)"The Future Belongs to...them", is no less radical right fascism than it was in the past.  It's indoctrination , in the name of Fun,Health, and Joy. I should bite my tongue when I hate to say it but Arnold's emphatically enjoying having a good time being a fun guy in a healthy outreach -- begins somewhere early in life. It is not even thought about much but is just taken for granted as a healthy outlook of how to use your free time from WORK, of which there is not much in either case.

So, if we are now going to have an insidious religiously sanctified War of Religious Factions all over again, I'd like to give it a wide berth and remain focused on the political maneuvres. Although this is wishful thinking because the discussion of the Palestinian-Israeli-Iranian blowout either backed by or cheered on with US political  or sectarian interests always inevitably brings me cryptic e-mail sounding me out as to whether an exception could be made for perfectly respectable anti-semitic expressions of concern?
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TrojanHorse
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« Reply #476 on: July 06, 2007, 07:16:43 PM »

Funny, because many of the Right-wingers today are Catholic conservatives like Buchanan and Hannity. 

I didn't know Buchanan was Catholic.

Hannity gets a lot of crap from the church - not "officially" of course, but he seems to ruffle a lot of the fathers' feathers...
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #477 on: July 06, 2007, 10:27:20 PM »

The Man In The Box

Oh, oh! I remember an old Three Stooges episode in which a question was asked,  who threw that pie?  who threw that pie??

This was in response to a mystery that precipitated big trouble.***

Well, somebody had to throw the first punch in the big brawl that was to come. And, in all honesty, I was surprised to see that it was Forrest who did so!

Forrest was in England on tour and there was some anti-USA agitation.  He was convinced it was Macready who was responsible for the cool reception he got.  Both gave the appearance that all was well between them.  But a spark was to flash that would soon cause trouble to ensue:  Forrest deliberately hissed at a Macready performance. Though he initially denied it, there were numerous witnesses to confirm that he was the culprit. Eventually he acknowledged that it was he who committed this indiscretion and it would not be forgotten.

As Cliff writes, the battles lines were drawn.


pp 150-164



 *** BTW, I was to find out years later that it was Moe who performed the pie throwing stunts because the studio boss was too cheap to hire someone else to do it.
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bosox18d
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« Reply #478 on: July 07, 2007, 12:16:59 AM »

Well I guess this counts as Americana.That short was"Spook Louder" from 1943.When they first enter the house the hall is full of clocks.The butler says something like "Shh! In two seconds it will be five o'clock in Russia" at which a clock with a head that looks a bit like the head of a mummy starts in with a very slow Yo,Ho-Ho-Ho-Ho.At which Curly says"Hey let's come back at twelve O'clock and hear the whole song!"
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« Reply #479 on: July 07, 2007, 08:16:21 AM »

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0703894.htm

Motu proprio of Benedict issued yesterday authorizing expanded use of the Tridentine Mass---
dzimas, re:#537
Mel Gibson has become notorious for the conservative Catholic church he set up in southern California


NOT ONLY THERE. In his case, personally, in the family, given his father's outlook, that inspiration smacks a bit more of Anglicanism; unless the Roman church has taken to accepting into the priesthood those men who have grown sons alive and well; that could be, for all I know, as some kind of a statement among widowers?

But we also have a congregation regionally to appeal to the red staters on one side of the Delaware River, so they can travel across to the New Jersey side every Sunday for the fix of that old time religion.

Bob can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what is referred to as the Tridentine adaptation of Roman Catholicism.  At first, it never occurred to me that they had set up shop for other reasoning than for people to come and reminisce about when the Church used to be respectably Solemn, inducing reveries of mysticism, ceremonies, sacramentals, Gregorian music, and fish on Friday, twice a week during Lent.

By now I realized, they needed to attract the numbers for a valid parish to stand up to the Archdiocese of Philadelphia.

So whether they will institute Bingo, or Novenas on Tuesday nights, is a toss up.

Traditionalists objected to some of the changes brought about under Vatican II--as a matter of fact a segment of the opposition ended up in schism. However, as one who attends a Latin Mass, I can assure you we don't engage in secret rituals, mysticism, or reveries. I continue to think after all these years that the Latin Mass is the proper expression and that the Mass of Paul VI leaves a lot to be desired and goes too far. I continue to be as Catholic as ever, but object to changes in ritual. I have little problem with dogma.
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