Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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Author Topic: American History  (Read 29441 times)
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madupont
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« Reply #495 on: July 09, 2007, 10:47:38 PM »

They never did. Allow for Bach that is. Prior to the "New Rules". I was thunder-struck, by appealing to the modern parishioners as if the liturgical history had to be adjusted to fit the times, in much the same way as the Church had previously done this on occasion in other parts of the world and I'd often heard that described as,"making allowances" for-- whatever; I don't even want to think up words to describe this process of habituation for converts.

Oddly enough, I used to really enjoy doing Bach "exercises", it takes a lot of dexterity or perhaps the better word would be acute flexibility to match your awareness of remaining on tempo.   But then I'd also enjoyed learning the music that was used for the celebration of the Mass;and one of the first things that occurred to me (again!)was "Mom, why did we go through all those hours upon hours of learning the correct pronunciation and meaning of Latin and all the practice,including the hour out of the study-hall at night when we would have been doing our  homework,rehearsing the next-day's Mass?"

Mother would have of course replied, "...so, you could offer it up."; thus, broaching the subject was entirely theoretical.
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mlewis78
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« Reply #496 on: July 10, 2007, 12:26:46 AM »

Re:  J.S. Bach/Roman Catholic Church

Isn't the real reason that his music is banned is that he was Lutheran?
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Bob
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« Reply #497 on: July 10, 2007, 12:41:51 AM »

mlewis: that is not true---what he doesn't like is the guitar. He doesn't like the folk music type of presentations, the jazzy sort of mass which has developed of late. I think he would be delighted by Bach, properly presented by an appropriate instrumental group. He does want to see more of traditional Church and brought  that up in another motu earlier this year. By the way, the fact that Bach was Lutheran---some of the traditional music used in the RC Church was written by Martin Luther.

His objection has more to do with the instrument and the pandering to  musical tastes which he considers inappropriate to the worship of God.  
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Bob
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« Reply #498 on: July 10, 2007, 12:44:15 AM »

Quote
I thought it was because he had 20 children, because his organ had no stops

I like that!!!

I'll be back later. Time to shut down for a while....
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madupont
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« Reply #499 on: July 10, 2007, 07:21:18 PM »

I'm now wondering whose Stabat Mater it is with which I was familiar?

I'm afraid that I'm referring to an earlier era during WW2 when the good sisters informed us that no other kind of music was permitted to accompany the Holy Mass. But then look who was Pope, in those days? Although I doubt very much that he was the one who decided what was religious music and what was secular.  I think that Bach despite his intent and genius might not have been considered non-secular enough despite the Divine Right of kings.

I once mentioned to Lhoffman, had she ever seen Schlafsbruder, a German film which takes an unwashed and perhaps illegitimate peasant in pursuit of music in not just a possessed outpouring but to the point where he begins to strongly resemble Bach. As his music strengthens him, he strides into churches, takes over the organ-loft, and gives wild concerts that attract crowds of the urbane.

Of course what began in his dreamy reveries is reflected in the title, which I hope I've remembered to spell correctly,because the Brother of Sleep is Death.

Germans have a passion for music; perhaps that partially accounts for this major change decided by Benedict.

So, no,it was not Bach per se.  I feel that when you say,"used to" you are referring to a more Ecumenical time period.
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #500 on: July 10, 2007, 11:51:42 PM »

NPR:  Remembering New York City's Opera Riots

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5402902
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weezo
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« Reply #501 on: July 11, 2007, 07:36:02 AM »

With apologies for going so far off topic, I would like to let those who may be interested know about a tv event going on this week in American History. It is a mini-series entitled Roots: The Next Generations, and it is an excellent portrayal of the times seen through the eyes and experiences of our black friends and neighbors. The actors and actresses are among the best, and the story is well told. The series started Sunday night, and TV One is running it, with one episode a day since, showing the episodes several times each day.

Last night it covered the years leading up to WWI, ending at 1918 when one of the main charactors, who has just graduated from college, misses his graduation ceremony to enlist in the army which is segregated and he knows he will suffer indignities for being a black man, but feels it is necessary to unite with the rest of the nation in this war. It points out the new rise in the KKK at the time, while also showing the advances being made among the blacks as they move into business, sometimes with the enthusiastic support of the older generation of white folks. At the time that the KKK is resurrected in the town in Tennessee, it is pointed out that their goal is to suppress the Catholics, the Jews, and the Black folks in that order. The first "victim" of this mob is not a black person, but the Jewish shop keeper who has a dry goods store in town. The upper crust of the black community is puzzled that the KKK has a hatred of what they perceive as another "white man" when the Jewish man is burned out.

For those with an interest in the racial divide in the history of this country, especially the south, this series is a must see. If you are on Direct TV it is on channel 241. I have no idea if the numbers run the same on cable.

Now, back to our scheduled talk on the Shakespeare Riots in NYC.

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thanatopsy
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« Reply #502 on: July 11, 2007, 05:22:58 PM »

Of Men and Sheep


To his credit, Forrest did publish his "Card" in which he fessed up to instigating the trouble with Mcready. He averred ''I did it, and publicly avow it in the Times of London" {p 168}. Yet, his confession was filled with self justifications and finger pointing, especially at British critic Forster. While he felt that this could settle whatever argument existed, it has a reverse effect as it galvanized British critics and Macready supporters. The Briton hoped to retire and settle in the USA and was generally met with favorable crowds in his tour (this was esp so in the South).  Soon he would heading to New York.

As if Forrest did not have enough troubles in his mind, he and his British wife had squabbles and the marriage ultimately dissolved. This "made Forrest more hostile than ever toward the fashionable circles his wife moved in, it cut his last tie with England, and it left him more bitter and self righteous than ever."  With all parties now in NYC, the stage was set for the big battle that was to come.


pp 165-184
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Bob
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« Reply #503 on: July 11, 2007, 06:08:02 PM »

Chapter 10 puts things in perspective in that it describe society and politics and the growing class divisions in New York. one of the more interesting things the chapter brings out ids that as Macready moved South his reception became more positive. It seems the Northeast was rampant with anti-British feelings. The Irish hatred is well described in the chapter. Increased wealth brought on increased anti-British feelings as the Irish were on the lower end of the economic scale. I also enjoyed the description of the maneuverings of Tammany Hall and the social and class divisions between the Whigs and the Democrats.

I suppose the main point is that even without the Forrest/Macready dispute, the riots might have occured just the same. The problem was the increased social and class divisions withing New York.

Has anybody read the book FIVE POINTS?  I went to Law School just a few blocks from there. For those of you who know New York--Five Points is Foley Square now--home of the NY County and Federal Courthouses. See note on page 189.
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #504 on: July 12, 2007, 12:47:54 AM »

I worked for many years at the IRS building at Church and Murray Street nearby.  Here are pics of the Brewery:

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/mpimages/mp041.jpg

http://members.aol.com/noahdiamond/fivepoints1.jpg

http://members.aol.com/noahdiamond/paradisesquare2.jpg

http://r2.gsa.gov/fivept/phbrew.jpg



Re Chapter 10, I thought Cliff gave too little attention to the Rascal Ned Buntline and his role in creating the mess that became the Astor Place Riot. Picture plates of the placards used to incite confrontation should have been included in the book as well as extracts from Ned's Own so that readers could see the impact that he had on those events. The Rascal had a very prominent role in USA history and folklore but has not gotten as much attention that he merits.  Notice that I said attention, not praise.
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #505 on: July 12, 2007, 12:54:33 AM »

I would have liked to see more plates, too.  But I enjoyed reading about Buntline...interesting fellow.
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Bob
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« Reply #506 on: July 12, 2007, 02:53:14 AM »

Thanatopsy

Church and Murray is only a few blocks down from the Law School--which is at Church and Worth. We probably passsed each other more that a few times.

I found the treatment of Ned Buntline OK--though, like yourself it would have been ever better if he expanded on it. I wonder if there any good biographies of the guy. Let me look around now that my interest is peaked.
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #507 on: July 12, 2007, 07:50:05 AM »

I passed by the New York Law School quite a few times.  Wish I had gone there instead of Hamline Law School whose degrees are about as valuable as yesterday's toilet paper.

There is only one bio of Buntline so far as I know:

The Great Rascal J. Monaghan (1952)

Unfortunately, it is rather rare.

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thanatopsy
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« Reply #508 on: July 12, 2007, 08:38:45 AM »

possible subject for our next reading:

http://www.amazon.com/New-York-Intellectuals-Decline-Anti-Stalinist/dp/0807841692


the book is a bit large and highly involved but there are other books on the subject that may be more accessible
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Dzimas
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« Reply #509 on: July 12, 2007, 08:52:38 AM »

Maybe something along these lines?

http://www.amazon.com/Cross-Iron-National-Security-19451954/dp/0521795370/ref=sr_1_4/105-5791205-4542015?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184244624&sr=1-4
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