American History

[weezo]

Than,

That sounds like a good book to read. I have never heard of Richmond Flowers before, but maybe I'll check into it. I found a link about him but it was very brief. http://www.archives.state.al.us/conoff/flowers.html

I have added your suggestion to the list for September. I will count your vote on the Truman as a vote for the Iron Cross.

[madupont]

dzimas re:#645

That was what was so marvelous about the important officials of governments during my childhood. They all had such elegant personal style. They were really the first celebrities of that era.  Those others were just movie stars.  It was a very stylish age for which I'm often nostalgic; probably because we are so the opposite now. Just look at our hacks of politicians and how either gruesome or grotty they look (Of course, we have to make an exception for  Nancy Pelosi; although, sometimes she does look like the mother down the block on her way to a PTA meeting).  I'm just having my second childhood, don't mind me.

[Bob]

I read 1421, or a substansial part of it, a while back and I remember it to be very interesting, though I had my doubts  about whether certain conclusions he came to and assumptions he made were valid or speculative at best. Anyhow the book is very interesting and worth pursuing if only to "get into" those parts to see if others agree with me.

[weezo]

Bob,

I read 1421 before I read the Farfarers, and found myself wishing that Menzies had also put his speculation into italics as Mowat did, so you could keep straight what was definitely fact and what was speculation.

[thanatopsy]

I started reading 1421 but found it to be a bit too fictional or speculative at best.  It is likely more suitable for Art Bell's ''Coast to Coast'' show but, as always, to each their own.

[caclark]

There is a lot of debate over the authenticity of the purported Zheng He map. The inscription on it identifies it as an 1763 copy of an original map drawn in 1418 but not even the 1763 date is proof that the copy was actually made in 1763. There have been purported old maps that were subsequently found to be hoaxes. The Zheng He map was purchased from an antiquities dealer in Shanghai a few years ago. Radio-carbon dating was being done on it but I haven’t heard the results or if they’ve even finished the lab testing.

Menzies’ book has not had a glowing reception among historians. That of course, is not sufficient cause to dismiss his thesis as hokum. Scholars have been proven wrong before.

[weezo]

Clark,

Menzies' writing is rather boastful at times, but he does raise some interesting questions. I tend to discount his suggestions in his comparison of languages, and the stone plaque on the Cape Verde Islands, but, on the other hand, if Zheng He did make it around the Cape of Good Hope, much of the rest of the story is highly likely. Francis Jennings, many years ago, pointed out the possibility/probability of some involvement of the Chinese in the pre-Columbian Native cultures on the west coast of South America. I would like to learn more about the DNA testing of some of the Native peoples who are said to have had contact with the Chinese. Menzies mentions that the Melungeon "tribe" may have taken their light color from the Chinese, but I have heard that DNA has established that that is more likely to be Portuguese, which instead of pointing to the early "discovery" of America by the Chinese, it may have actually been done, at least on the east coast, but the secretive Portuguese whose records were lost in an earthquake. Menzies suggests that more of this could be traced by examining Vatican records, so there is an opening for a historian who would like a challenge.

In any event, I like the idea of examining other evidence of history rather than only the writings of dead white men! <grin>

Anne

[madupont]

Anne, the Vatican library is a bit more than a challenge. I had an acquaintance in New York who worked there in the...how to say this(?),their collection of censorable things. That was just his cup of tea in English or Latin and whatever other languages he had going(I never asked) as he was rather odd to say the least. In any case, not otherwise an historian by a long shot.

I'd be willing to bet that if the Chinese made it, the route would have been Pacific rather than around the Cape of Good Hope; yet I have never encountered material that would lead me to believe they had ships anywhere near that big to withstand the voyage.   I suspect that I have an inkling where to look for prints that may be still around and that they would have a similar date to that caclark mentioned and which may have led to a "far fetched" notion or theory. Remember Westerners got to them first and then the Chinese would have had to learn technically from what they saw tentatively in their hospitable mode in the 13th.century.

Even, the Japanese who were seafarers of sorts  did not go the distance to make the long haul; their craft just about made it back and forth over the narrower passages in good weather  from a latitude about 35 degrees but probably less than 40 degrees, however I will check a text for clues which I have been putting off and putting off because I suspect they went overland through Korea to Manchuri and more likely tripped across the Yellow Sea in good weather since I have no size estimate for the  Ryukyu Islands which the name tells me they did get to but exactly when I have no idea.

They certainly made it swifter south as the years went by; with routes that take you further south by south-east hypothetically almost to the western coast of South America but I do not know enough about the technical advancement of their naval vessels and not a thing about the prevailing winds in that region.  I lost track in the running at the point where there was supposition that people indigenous to the South Seas somehow made it to the Andes which was a nice idea back in the Fifties.

But good luck, and if I get any clues will pass them along.

[nnyhav]

Robert, any recommendation on the history of financial panics from CW and to WWI?
Markets seem to be celebrating a centennial a tad early.

[edit] maybe right on time -- the Rich Man's Panic began early July 1907, now it's hedge funds ...

[madupont]

nnyhav,

I truly enjoyed your presentation of the materials on William Empson, Donne, and Dylan Thomas.

I first learned of Empson in relation to Wittgenstein.

Thomas, of course, as read last night in  your materials, took me back to the era of the UMW production; and scanning the sample, I kept having these images pop into my head of Rachel Griffiths and Jonathan Price as daughter and father with the bakery truck and thoroughly strange bakery not to mention the oddity of their home-life.  This movie, whose title I have forgotten, was in many ways so more appropo to Thomas' capturing of the language than the honker made on film by Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton among others.

[Bob]

   I forgot the guidelines on the vote. Can you let me know? Is there an end date for voting?

Meanwhile, I'm reading an interesting book about Roman History and the Bubonic Plague (circa 286--565 AD) ...Good Book---JUSTINIAN'S FLEA by William Rosen

[Lhoffman]

Bob...I saw Justinian's Flea in the book store a while back.  It looked quite good and I have it on my to buy list.   How are you liking it?

[weezo]

Bob,

The voting ends tomorrow - that will be seven days. I was going to do a run-off vote, but, unless there is a flurry of votes overnight and tomorrow, it looks like it's pretty clearly 1421. The runner up is The Iron Cross about Truman.

[elportenito]

...ahhh, Youse mean THAT American History, as in USA History. I see.

[Bob]

Weezo: Are we to assume it's 1421?   When should the actual discussion begin?