Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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Author Topic: American History  (Read 29299 times)
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liquidsilver
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« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2007, 08:45:22 AM »

I just finished Jennings' Aztec Rage.  I know its not quite American history but it was a very good book under the same vein as an indigenous people conquered.
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« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2007, 12:04:50 PM »

Anne,
   They took the reply icon off so no way to post.  Use your imaginaton with Poca.
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weezo
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« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2007, 02:27:24 PM »

NY Temps,

No, Pocahontas was not of more lowly birth than most of Powhatan's children. He did sire some children by women from "chiefly" families, and these children had higher status: they would grow up to become chiefs (Chief Pochin at Kecoutan was one of his sons by a chiefly woman), or to sire future chiefs. Remember, Powhatan had more than 100 wives, each having born him at least one child. He usually put them aside after the first child, and the women were free to remarry as they chose. The children of Powhatan were brought to live in his house after they were able to "care for themselves" at about age 5-6.

I know that Roundtree prefers the term "Little Wanton", which is probably the more literal translation. In writing for children, there is the danger that they will look up the word and get the more venal definition, so I chose to use the term "Playful Child" instead, to avoid confusion.

Pocahontas seems not to have been very "wanton" in the modern term. There is no evidence that she had children in her first marriage to Kocoun. Surely, if she had children by Kocoun, she would have pined for them when held in captivity in Jamestown. Instead, the record acccording to the Eureans, was that she was comfortable and content.  She bore but one child to John Rolfe. I'm sure her nakeness as a child helped the settlers to focus on that translation of her name, but her nakedness was a cultural expedience rather than a venal choice.

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Bob
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« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2007, 04:28:38 PM »

Looks as if we are already started on the subject.  I'm finishing up another book (SAVAGE PEACE). I'll join in a day or so....
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Bob
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« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2007, 04:30:20 PM »

I forgot----the two two different pronounciation guides are very similar. I didn't know Roundtree had one. I haven't started the book yet--but will very shortly...
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weezo
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« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2007, 07:14:33 PM »

Bob,

Yes, the Commonwealth of Virginia is in quite a state! Today was the official reopening and dedication of the state capital in Richmond. It has been under renovation for a number of years. There were efforts to take it back to the orignal grandior (sp - senior moment!) of the building designed by Thomas Jefferson, with modern functions included.

Tomorrow all state buildings are closed and all state workers have a holiday as the Queen arrives. Thursday, she is schedule to visit Jamestown, and on Friday, will address the state legislature, the General Assembly, in their new building.

Roundtree's guides for pronunciation are only for the three main characters in the book. The rest of the long Native words are up to the reader to determine how to pronounce them.
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Bob
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« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2007, 09:13:28 PM »

Weezo,
           I'll try to look up some of them. Indian names always throws me, though I live in a section of PA where a lot of place names are original Indian names.
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Bob
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« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2007, 09:15:58 PM »

weezo, how come you are registered as a full member and I'm registered as a newbie?
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weezo
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« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2007, 10:29:58 PM »

Bob,

The upgrade has happened in the past few days. I think it has something to do with how many times you post on all of the forums. Other than that, I have no idea. I was a Junior Member for a few weeks.

I tend to post heavily on the National Forum, so that's why my number of posts goes up so fast. I notice that today, when I log in, I log in as myself instead of as a guest, so I guess that's the reward for posting a lot.

I grew up in Reading, PA, and there are a lot of Indian and PA Dutch names for rivers and places. Indian names seem to be most common for the rivers, and the towns and cities tend to be English or Pa Dutch. What part of the state do you live in. I still have some cousins in Reading, but all of my sisters, grandchildren, and great-grands are scattered all over the country. Only one sister remains in PA - she is near Pittsburgh. Last time I went to Reading was two years ago the end of this month, to interr my mother with my father.

There is an oral tradition in my mother's family that an ancestor was a Lenne Lenape Indian. Since the Lenne Lenape is also an Algonquin-speaker, much of the information I have learned about Pocahontas and the Powhatans probably applies to my own ancester. So far, geneology has not been able to confirm this, but you can see the heritage in some of our faces!



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bosox18d
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« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2007, 11:10:04 PM »

It appears when you hit 50 posts you become a junior member and at 100 posts a full member.
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« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2007, 11:35:17 PM »

Weezo,
           I'll try to look up some of them. Indian names always throws me, though I live in a section of PA where a lot of place names are original Indian names.


Just a reminder that the story of Pocahontas is not entirely original as the Tainos of Florida and the Caribbean claim the story as their own:

http://www.indigenouspeople.net/taino.htm

quote:

"
The Tainos And The Pocahontas Story
Pocahontas is anther lie! Many Taino know that Pocahontas was a not even in the picture 200 years, before the original story was being read by some White Man named John Smith. He read the Garcilasco De Vega story, about a captive Spanish man called "Ortiz" and his account of 1528. This account was later published in 1557 in Lisbon, Portugal and later translated into English in 1605. This account by Garcillasco De Vega about Juan (John) Ortiz's encounter with the Taino-Timucua Indigenous Cacique (Chieftist) near Tampa Bay in Bimini (Florida). Her real name was Caciquea Ulele (Chieftist). The use of the word "Barbacoa", a word that survived as "Barbecue" is of the Taino Language, meaning the fire pit.

It seems that the father of Ulele, Cacique Hirrihugua of the Yucayeque (Village) of Ucita, was going to have Juan (John) Ortiz put to death, because the Spaniard Narvaez had cut off his nose and killed his Mother. The daugther Ulele pleaded with her father to spare Ortiz's life. The next day Caciquea Ulele took Ortiz to the nieghboring Guacara Yucayeque (Village) of Cacique (Chief) Moscoso. The rest is nothing but a little white lie told by John Smith or John Ortiz an English manor a Spaniard? The Powhatan people do not have our Taino southern traditions; furthermore we do not speak the Powhatan language of the North-East. We Taino Indigenous Nation of the Caribbean & Florida know the truth of Juan Ortiz. It was not until 500 years later on in November 18th, 1993 that we have made this statement via our supporting evidence of traditional language and customs of the Taino-Timucua people of Bimini (Florida). Please do note that many historians of Florida support these historical facts."
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weezo
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« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2007, 07:01:36 AM »

Thanatopsy,

Thank you for a most enlightening link.

It does make sense that the Pocahontas story of her saving John Smith is an invention. Historians typically believe so, since the story was not included in the first writings and was not confirmed in the writings of others at the time. Roundtree discusses in her book how she came to this conclusion.
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weezo
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« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2007, 05:43:35 PM »

In addition to coverage on CNN, check out NBC at 7 tonight and see what they provide of a very exciting day in Virginia.

Three tribes, the Rappahannock, the Mattapponi, and the Chickahominy performed a delightful song and dance welcoming the Queen. At the end they presented her with a gift that the live commentators did now know what it was. I looked to be a huge clam shell, decorated with feathers, and with something precious inside. Perhaps by 7 someone will know what it was.

After a week of weather in the 80's and 90's, Virginia turned cool last night, and the Queen probably found the cool rainy weather well suited. There was a pause in the rain from the time she landed until she spoke to the legislature. Fortunately, there is a tunnel between the Capital and the Governor's Mansion so she didn't have to get wet. Umbrellas were not allowed today on the capital grounds for security reasons.

The Queen is supposed to leave Richmond about 5:30 for Williamsburg, and spend tomorrow at Jamestown and Williamsburg.

What I liked was that the local NBC station who broadcast everything live, included comments on QEII's speech 50 years ago, which focused on the celebration of the English culture in the US. This time, she talked about the diversity of culture that met in Jamestown.

At some time during her visit to Virginia, she is scheduled to meet Oliver Hill, who recently celebrated his 100th birthday. Hill's success in the Civil Rights movement was remembered on his birthday. Supposedly, she is going to apologize or say something on that line to Mr. Hill when she talks to him.

QEII, before speaking to the legislature, met with some Virginia children in the state capital where, with the help of the Governor and First Lady, got the children talking about the significance of the 400th anniversary.

And, she kept loading down her "lady in waiting" with the gifts of flowers. The Queen received the bouquets, 2 and 3 at a time, ans passed them to her lady in waiting, who, from time to time, handed them off to persons unseen, ready to take the next bouquet from the queen.

If you happen to get to see the Native American dance and presentation, note that they are wearing authentic headdress and clothing from 400 years ago. They did not appear to have shaved half of their heads as Roundtree describes their barbering habits, but that is probably because tomorrow they will all report to ordinary jobs.

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lordbroket
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« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2007, 06:55:25 PM »

Biggest mistake America made was to leave the empire. Just look at the mess you are in now. A queen rather than a buffoon would have altered all the current problems.
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Bob
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« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2007, 08:56:21 PM »

Weezo

I was born in West Nanticoke--named  after Nanticoke Indians who rented space from the local tribes after they had been asked to leave the base tribe in the  Chesapeake River area because of accusations of theivery. They stayed here a while and moved on. Shawanese lived on the flats along the Susquehanna River about 1,000 or so feet from where I lived. (I also live within 1,000 feet of the Grand Tunnel Breaker--this is Coal  Country).

I started the book yesterday and already l;ike it. I never read Roundtree before but she certainly can detail well. Like others I'm a bit slowed down by Indian names, but the read is well worth it for the information she imparts.

I think we set May 5 for the start of the discussion. I'm ready for that----it should prove to be an interesting one.

I heard the Queen's speech and will follow her tour.

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