American History

[Bob]

SNCC went radical in the mid to late sixties under Stokley Carmichael and his concept of black power...I remember the early years when they organized college students and others to go into the South and work for voter registration. (Student Nonviolent Cordinating Committee) John Lewis was an early member, as was I....

By the way madupont, your use of the phrase "Holy Cow" is very timely in a sad way--Phil Rizzuto died today. He was 89---hje popularized the phrase as an announcer for the Yankees, using it to describe particularly surprizing happenings during a baseball game--especially home runs.

[thanatopsy]

Richmond Flowers + now Phil Rizzuto = two genuine American icons.

[Bob]

I was quite the joiner in the early sixties---and a confused one at times---there was a brief time there when I was a member of the tudents For a Democratic Society and  the Young Americans for Freedom at the same time (Sort of like joining the most radical wing of the Democratic Party and the most conservative wing of the Republican Party at the simultaneously). Such is youth!!!! I ended up quite the liberal very quickly and engaged in the Civil Rights movement and later into Lyndon Johnson's Poverty Program, as the assistant director of the local Community Action Program.

[Bob]

"Richmond Flowers + now Phil Rizzuto = two genuine American icons"

I agree....but I find it a shame that Richmond Flowers has become a forgotten figure except to those who are very well read  in the movement or who lived through it. He was a mighty force at his height---and a very brave man.

[thanatopsy]

A note on Oliver  Hill:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/06/AR2007080601438.html


Another true American hero.

[weezo]

Thank you, Than

I'd mentioned his passing a few days ago, but it seemed to take a backseat to Richmond Flowers. Richmond was all abuzz over the passing of Oliver Hill. His body lay in state in the Governor's Mansion, a rare honor. I'm sure there will eventually be a statue of Oliver Hill among the many statues in Richmond which once only honored fallen Civil War leaders, but increasingly honors the Richmond/Virginia famous from many walks of life. It would be fitting if Oliver Hill's statue was placed facing that of Harry Byrd, who is honored for his resistance to integration. With a bit of natural humor, it would perhaps be interesting if the statue of Harry Byrd continued to be a favorite deposit of pigeon poop, and that of Oliver Hill remained clean. Perhaps Oliver Hill will join Arthur Ashe on the Monument Avenue array, or be placed in his favorite neightborhood, as is the statue of Bill "Bojangles" Robinson.

[Bob]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/15/books/15grim.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

This looks interesting---The Sacco Vanzetti Case. I'll have to look for it tomorrow in B&N

For some reason I can't recall Oliver Hill, thgough I remember the Prince Edwar County case which was later merged withBrown V Board of Education. I'll look him up!!!

[thanatopsy]

weezo,

Thank you for bringing up Oliver Hill's name --- I probably came across his name when I was in law school but could not honestly recall who he was. Now I know!

You sure can learn a  lot on this forum!!

[madupont]

Bob,

Part of the reason that this quote sums it up,
William O. Douglas, the Supreme Court justice, wrote in 1969 that anyone reading the courtroom transcript “will have difficulty believing that the trial with which it deals took place in the United States.”, is because quite soon the parallel took place in Mussolini's Italy, hunting down anarchists.

When reflecting on that, it casts American vindictiveness as justice  in a bad light.  It reveals the common thread to Abu Ghraib-ism, to the whole policy, that  targeting examples will somehow resolve the problem of the real dangers  which are actually being reinforced.

[weezo]

NY Temp,

That lake is still there, and still lighted at night! And, it is in Byrd Park, not Bryant Park. Bryant Park is off the Boulevard where, in spring, the whole park bursts into color when the azaleas bloom. Byrd Park is close to Dogwood Dell, where the outdoor amphitheater is the site of many summer productions. The Richmond Symphany always made at least one performance there each summer, which allowed me to introduce symphany music to my boys. One was enraptured, the other preferred to run around on the grass.

[weezo]

I got the the part of 1421 last night where he discusses the voyage of Zhou Wen. This is perhaps the most suspect part of the book. Much depends on speculation.

In previous chapters he talked about the heavy ice pack on Antarctica in the years of the voyages, but as Zhou Wen sails north the north polar ice pack seems to have receded enough to allow the intrepid explorers to come with 130 miles of the North Pole. On their way up the east coast of North America, the sea is said to be lower than it is today, which would indicate more ice on the pole than now, but when the Chinese arrive in the North, they are able to sail all the way around Greenland.

Although Menzies mention Farley Mowat's discoveries in Eastern Canada, which Mowat in his most recent book, attributes to colonalization by the Albans, forerunners of the Scots, who migrated west, island hopping, and settled on America as they were pushed west by the Norsemen. Mowat attributes the roofless stone houses as the home of the Albans who set their boats over the stone walls as a roof. Mowat says the design of the stone lighthouses is consistent with the same seen on European Islands where the Albans originiated. But Menzies says the stone walls were topped by wood from wrecked junks (Mowat says there is no evidence of permanant wood roofing), and that the Chinese built the lighthouses.

Nothing like seeing two speculative histories come to a crash in evidence. I'm rather inclined towards Mowat's interpretation since he walked the areas, whereas Menzies just explored from the sea. Perhaps the Chinese, if they did arrive at Newfoundland and the mainland of Canada, based their map-making on the description and perhaps charts, made by the Albans who had colonized Greenland before the Norse arrived.

[Donotremove]

To Whomever: If you are reading the 2003 hard back edition of  1421 it would behoove you to read the Post Script starting on page 411.  Menzies is open to and encourages all comers to come forth with additional information and/or criticism.  That's why he set up the website.  He seems to be grateful and excited even that people world-wide have taken up discussing the book (and cynics will say, "Why not if it increases sales?).  For myself, I believe Menzies is truly interested in getting to the bottom of the Chinese question: Where all did those huge junks go, such ships as have not been seen since?

[caclark]

To Whomever: If you are reading the 2003 hard back edition of  1421 it would behoove you to read the Post Script starting on page 411.  Menzies is open to and encourages all comers to come forth with additional information and/or criticism.  That's why he set up the website.  He seems to be grateful and excited even that people world-wide have taken up discussing the book (and cynics will say, "Why not if it increases sales?).  For myself, I believe Menzies is truly interested in getting to the bottom of the Chinese question: Where all did those huge junks go, such ships as have not been seen since?

Call me a cynic if you will, but setting up a website doesn’t exactly hurt promotion. I’ve no doubt that Menzies is, as you put it, “grateful and excited even that people world-wide have taken up discussing the book.” There is nothing more certain to stimulate interest in a book than controversy.

The best historical studies are often the fruits of years of painstaking research and late nights in libraries sifting through obscure documents. Many of the published works will not make money, much less bring an unsung academic the $750,000 cash advance paid to Menzies. There are some rewards that a sensationalist author might never understand, not even those who manage to find a following of true believers.

[weezo]

Just got an update from the 1421 website. The apologized for no news the past six months. Some of the information includes progress on a movie by Warner Brothers China and name the scriptwriter, research going on on the Island of Seven Cities (Puerto Rico?), research in New Zealand, potential evidence of the wrecked junks on the Pacific Coast to include core sample testing in the near future. And other items. How many on here are interested in this newsletter? Should I figure out a way to hang it on one of my websites so others can read it and make up their own minds? The newletter in its entirety is not on the website: http://www.1421.tv/ but some items in it are there.

[thanatopsy]

sensationalist author

Interesting phrase.  Most historians, while being quite thorough in their research and conclusions, nevertheless retain some measure of detachment from their work.  In this manner, the author allows the facts to speak for themselves. Yet, throughout 1421 there are repeated references to '' I '' by the author.  It is as if he is trying to convince the reader that these ''facts'' need to believed regardless as to whether they are true or not.

Does anyone recall any purported history book that takes the approach Menzies uses?

The only ones I can recall is the aforementioned mythic writings by Tristan Jones.