Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
June 24, 2018, 08:33:14 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: As you may have noticed, this is a very old backup, I'm still working through restoring the site.  Don't be surprised if you post and it all goes missing....
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 62 63 [64] 65 66 ... 165
  Print  
Author Topic: American History  (Read 29571 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #945 on: September 01, 2007, 11:35:59 AM »

Dzimas,

As you should know from the book before 1421, when the choice is a book I am not interested, I simply do not participate. I also do not complain about the book choice. One of the values of the poll, is that there is no reason to denigrate someone else's reading choice because it does not conform to one's own.

I am not snobbish in my buying of books, and I do not buy them to resell. I often buy the used books on Amazon, so that I can read the book. When I clean off my book shelves, every decade or so, the books are donated to some worthy cause.

My choice of reading in history is to ultimately produce children's historical fiction in order to induce children to come to enjoy reading history. I may well use the information in Menzies book to produce a children's book. It will probably be on the landing of the Chinese in Peru, Mexico, or California rather than the east coast, since I think it much more likely that the Chinese would cross the Pacific Ocean than the Atlantic. 

As a curiousity, I noted there were eight votes total in the poll, of which 4 were for 1421. I have not heard eight voices expressing their choice of books in the discussion for "concensus".
Logged
Donotremove
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 1068


View Profile Email

Ignore
« Reply #946 on: September 01, 2007, 12:21:52 PM »

Dzimas, as of 14 May 2007 books sent to foreign countries can no longer be shipped by surface mail (boat, train, horse carts) but must be shipped air mail. When I read that notice in the NYT I first thought about myself and how I would no longer be able to afford books I found elsewhere in the world and shipped to me by surface--which does take a bit of time in some cases, but mostly they got to me in about 2 weeks--and then I thought of you and how this would affect your book purchases.

I don't know who in the Bush administration thought this little item up--and for the life of me I can't remember, now, what reason was given--but I feel reasonably certain the U.S. Post Office would not have thought to make this rule on its own.

There was mention in the article that U.S. booksellers were concerned that this rule would severely affect their overseas buyers decisions to purchase from U.S. dealers.
Logged
Dzimas
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 4500


I thought you said your name was Nobody.


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #947 on: September 01, 2007, 03:41:56 PM »

I think historical fiction is right in regard to Menzies, so I can well see how it would suit your purposes.  Maybe you can come up with something along the lines of Harry Potter, traveling back in time and rewriting all the wrongs of history with a magic wand.  I can see it is going to be very hard to establish any kind of consensus in this forum, so maybe voting is the best thing.  I don't really care at this point. 
Logged
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #948 on: September 01, 2007, 06:01:28 PM »

Maybe you can come up with something along the lines of Harry Potter, traveling back in time and rewriting all the wrongs of history with a magic wand.


A thought occurred to me: there hasn't been all that much discussion of Menzies in the past couple of days/weeks. Since four people voted for the book, they should make some analytical contributions ot the discussion.  So far, I seem to be the one who has posted the most analytical discussions and they have mostly been refutations of Menzies' obvious mistakes.

Oh, and just one (hopefully) final comment on his mistakes about Puerto Rico --- he alleges that because there is a ''Portuguese'' river in PR, this proves it was inhabited by Lusitanians.  Well, there is a Buenos Aires in the city of Mayaguez (my family is from that part of the town).  Does this prove it was ''discovered'' by Argentinians?  We have a New Ulm, New Brighton, and New York Mills here in Minnesota.  Does this prove it was discovered by Dutch, British, and New York explorers??

Lastly, I would like to see some commentary here from those who voted for Menzies --- what have you gleaned from the book? Did you like it?  Hate it?  Want to defend the author?  Condemn him?  Did you or will you follow up by checking out his web site?  Something obviously attracted you to the controversial book --- has your opinion about it changed??
Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #949 on: September 01, 2007, 06:09:41 PM »

Article disputing the Menzies position with particular reference to the map:

http://www.sochistdisc.org/2006_articles/masson_article.htm



This is a very telling comment:  ''a “grand vision,” but surrounds it with unsound or imaginary evidence, and rejects contrary information.''

Very telling, indeed.

As for hardback/softback, either type of book is OK with me.  The doctor tells me I'm in the early stages of arthritis though, in fact, I've feeling the irritating symptoms for 10 years.  But my real issue is that the book should have fairly large print as my eyes can get strained rather easily if I read for too long.  Yup, old age can be a problem.
Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
Dzimas
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 4500


I thought you said your name was Nobody.


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #950 on: September 01, 2007, 06:41:38 PM »

I finally opted for reading glasses and it makes a big difference.  I hope I didn't sound like too much of a literary snob opting for first editions, but there is something about the feel of a hardback, especially a first edition, that makes it feel good as it rests in my lap.  The real value of a book is of course what is inside it.
Logged
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #951 on: September 01, 2007, 07:13:46 PM »

Dzimas,

Yes, you did sound like a literary snob. I have never noticed any difference of the feel of a first edition in my hand. The only exception was the first edition of a book in which I contributed a chapter. Now, that one felt good in hand.

Logged
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #952 on: September 01, 2007, 07:28:37 PM »

Than,

I suspect that others, like me, who enjoyed the book, were a bit off-put by the negatives posted on here and may have chosen to keep their comments to themselves.

Some of Menzies' comments were more worthy than others. I tended to discount them as surely as I discount unworthy comments in other books about history. There were apparently some unworthy comments made in The Shakespeare Riots about the tastes of Americans in how they chose to enjoy Shakespeare.

I still think that the Chinese predated Europeans in arriving on the American continents. I seriously doubt it was exclusively due to Zheng He's expeditions, but there is evidence of cultural and natural exchanges especially on the western coasts of North and South America which point to visit/s by the Chinese. If you choose to deride these evidences because there are others that are unworthy, that is your choice. It is not mine.

And, yes I have been to the website. I posted some information from the latest newsletter. I have sent a request for more information to the web address. The website is not manned in a timely manner, and I have yet to receive a reply from my request. It was in regard to the DNA evidence for the Melungeons, which I have found from other sources, places the ancestry of these people with shipwrecked Portuguese sailors, which corresponds to their oral history (aghast! Oral History?). What has not been done as yet, is to date when those Portuguese arrived on the Carolina/Virginia shores. DNA cannot establish a date, other than within a broad range. Oral history generally does not translate well to modern dating methods.



Logged
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #953 on: September 01, 2007, 08:52:41 PM »

``If you choose to deride these evidences because there are others that are unworthy, that is your choice. ``

But the burden of proof lies with Menzies as it did with Van Daniken. Their failure to provide concrete evidence is what generated criticism. Moreover, Menzies' innumerable errors in regard to Puerto Rican history and geography are not only striking, they are utterly laughable.

You might recall our discussion of Ackerman's Boss Tweed in the Times forum.  It was a book I recommended. Yet, if you were in on the discussion, you will know that I did not hesitate to criticize several of the author's minor failings and a number of shortcomings by the editor.  Nonetheless, I enjoyed the book and our very stimulating exchange.

For the record, I have found our exchange on Menzies to be quite stimulating as well.
Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #954 on: September 01, 2007, 09:20:58 PM »

Than,

No, I joined the American History forum shortly before it came down, so I did not see the discussion of Boss Tweed. If this is your usual approach to a book, I am now forewarned.

You may feel that the burden of proof rests solely on Menzies, but I do not agree. Certainly, he should have had a better editor to help him correct items you found laughable. Perhaps, I just do not feel the same need to laugh at the efforts of others. Perhaps my years teaching children have made me more accepting of the errors of others.  As a general sense, I felt a lot of enthusiasm for the subject in this author, probably more than his scholarship could support. But, he did make a strong effort to bring to the attention of the public that there could be other interpretations of existing data. He did make a strong case for further study. And, yes, that further study would be better pursued by those with more strengths under the many hats needed to explore the issues.

I feel the intent of his book was to open a dialogue on the possibilities he suggests. Some, I dismiss out of hand as implausible. Others, for which I've seen other similar suggestions from other sources, I am curious to see how it all pans out. 

Logged
madupont
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 5413


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #955 on: September 01, 2007, 11:19:26 PM »

Dzimas, as of 14 May 2007 books sent to foreign countries can no longer be shipped by surface mail (boat, train, horse carts) but must be shipped air mail. When I read that notice in the NYT I first thought about myself and how I would no longer be able to afford books I found elsewhere in the world and shipped to me by surface--which does take a bit of time in some cases, but mostly they got to me in about 2 weeks--and then I thought of you and how this would affect your book purchases.

I don't know who in the Bush administration thought this little item up--and for the life of me I can't remember, now, what reason was given--but I feel reasonably certain the U.S. Post Office would not have thought to make this rule on its own.

There was mention in the article that U.S. booksellers were concerned that this rule would severely affect their overseas buyers decisions to purchase from U.S. dealers.


Donotremove and Dzimas,

I had no idea this rule for postal rates had come about, when I recommended Powells.(but then Dzimas has made clear that he sometimes deals with Abe.UK).

But it means that the Bush idea of things has succeeded in dumbing down in a detestable way because if the buyers overseas are disadvantaged in obtaining books published in America, it cuts back on the income of the US booksellers, whereas the publishers had done everything possible to encourage purchases through your local bookseller rather than allowing you to buy direct from the publisher. This may account for why I've avoided the franchised book market and gone to the academic publishers, and sought things from second-hands that collectors frequent, as well as the spring and autumn library-sales.

I must admit that I've found one little lady that offers me a deal for delivery of books, but then she knows how to locate them; whereas my last experience with the big remainder sales stores crossing the nation left me peeved because the employees do not know how to find their books in inventory on the computer. They might as well be selling boxes of soap as books.

More than ever, I realize at times like today, that I could kick myself for forgetting to carefully note something that I have searched for with the academic publishers, did I or did I not file it but where? Which university had which author, what was the title again?  So maybe, I  ought to track a few before they are gone out of sight, out of mind. One Japanese,several European.

Unfortunately, it seems like yesterday when I used to post manuscripts by Book Rate.  Now, everything is Fed Ex or Fax it to me.
Logged
Dzimas
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 4500


I thought you said your name was Nobody.


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #956 on: September 02, 2007, 02:15:20 AM »

Weezo, how does the burden of proof not fall on the author?  Even in a novel, an author has to create an air of plausibility, the feeling that these events might be real, to pull his reader into the story.  Menzies tried to write a history and as such it has to be able to bear up under close scrutiny by a jury of his peers.  He utterly failed in this regard.  I couldn't find a positive review anywhere of the book among history journals.  1421 is widely regarded as a joke.  The book is regarded as an object lesson in how not to present history to any age group, particularly young ones who are more susceptable to tall tales.  That any publishing company, particularly Harper, could publish this book as history is laughable.  As a teacher, I would think you would give this book much closer scrutiny, especially if you plan on using it to write children's stories.  But, you seem to accept almost everything Menzies wrote at face value. 
Logged
Donotremove
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 1068


View Profile Email

Ignore
« Reply #957 on: September 02, 2007, 02:24:30 AM »

Maddy, you can use the book rate from the USPS for mailing inside the U.S.

Thanatopsy, I voted for 1421 but you should recall very early on I opted out of the discussion.  I have followed the posts, however.
Logged
Dzimas
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 4500


I thought you said your name was Nobody.


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #958 on: September 02, 2007, 02:29:22 AM »

DNR, Maddie,

The day is soon coming when all books will be available over the Internet, so shipping will no longer be a problem.  I've bought 100s of books from amazon over the years.  I would have thought they would have started giving me a discount rate at some point, especially for all the reviews I write, but I still get jacked when it comes to shipping.  However, they offer the cheapest rates, even lower than their satellite company in Britain.  What galls me is that I can only buy new books, CDs and DVDs from them.  They won't mail used books, CDs and DVDs to Lithuania for some strange reason, despite being in the EU for three years now.  B&N and Abebooks have no problem sending used books to me, so it seems like it is just some crazy internal policy.  I've written to them, but get the standard responses from Indian service personnel.  I was still able to get books set surface as of June.  I wasn't aware of this change in policy that DNR mentioned, but I did notice that the last time I tried to order through Abebooks, surface mail was no longer an option.  But, it had ceased being much of a savings anyway.
Logged
Dzimas
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 4500


I thought you said your name was Nobody.


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #959 on: September 02, 2007, 04:47:04 AM »

The worst part about it is that amazon has become so big it is hard to get any response out of them whenever sending e-mails.  They've got a virtual closed loop when it comes to e-mails, as they can only pertain to specific orders, otherwise they don't get processed.  The companies in their amazon marketplace only take orders through amazon, like Caiman music which has some of the best deals on CD's and DVD's.  Amazon has also bought out British book stores like Waterstone's, which used to provide its own Internet service, but now you can only go through amazon.  Of course, if you live in the States you can get whatever you want and usually with free delivery.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 62 63 [64] 65 66 ... 165
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!