Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
June 21, 2018, 02:46:45 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: As you may have noticed, this is a very old backup, I'm still working through restoring the site.  Don't be surprised if you post and it all goes missing....
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 83 84 [85] 86 87 ... 165
  Print  
Author Topic: American History  (Read 29458 times)
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Dzimas
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 4500


I thought you said your name was Nobody.


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1260 on: October 11, 2007, 03:44:29 AM »

Driven Out: The Forgotten War Against Chinese Americans

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400061342/ref=pd_luc_0000214000402801400061342/105-5791205-4542015
Logged
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1261 on: October 11, 2007, 05:08:03 PM »

In all my years of reading about the history of NYC, I do not recall ever having come across the peculiar practice of  ''Park Pay chair'' and never heard of the riots inspired by this vain practice. ''Tammany's park commissioner had tried to impose the longtime European custom of making people pay for the right to sit in park chairs.''   Understandibly, this sparked a riot!

p 55


With no progress being made in the North River Project, Cassatt took a holiday in France.  There, he saw a system of electrified locomotives tranporting passengers along a tunnel --- this was his inspiration for the system ultimately adopted in the PRR. London previously developed trolleys running along tunnels and one was also developed on the way to Cardiff, Wales.  Cassatt wasted no time in lobbying for such a prject in NJ-NY.


pp 55-62
Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1262 on: October 11, 2007, 05:28:12 PM »

As Cassatt mounted his campaign for a proposed tunneled electrified system, the world stopped because of the bad news that President McKinley was shot. Upon his death, Cassatt being ever resourceful, used his train lines to transport the deceased president's coffin  thereby gaining some publicity.  All this while, Lindenthal had not given up on his bridge project but it was clear that he could not get the support he needed.

Consultant Charles Jacob advised that if the PRR was to build its depot in the mid town district, it would need to buy surrounding lands.  This area was known for its vice and was called Tenderloin.  As a New Yorker, I thought the area up to 23d Street was Chelsea with Hell's Kitchen (now again known as Clinton*) being from 24th to 46th.  From 46th to 58th being the actual Tenderloin district. Gambling halls, whorehouses, dives, and cheap hotels marked the troubled area.

LIRR president and moral crusader William Baldwin labored to purge the district of vice. He believed that the purchase of this land mass would cleanse the area. The Lexow Committee would undertake an investigation into the Tammany protected evil doings there.


pp 63-72



*  that's correct = Chelsea and bordered by Clinton!



Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1263 on: October 11, 2007, 10:55:58 PM »

I may be wrong on this, but The Tenderloin District was a police precinct located in the upper section of Chelsea. It was frequented in that era by prostitutes and all sorts of con men and was a lucrative post for a policeman on the take--hence the name "tenderloin" with a double ententre (sic) twist...I 'll try and track it down in GOTHAM. I think Chelsea extends from 23rd street to Hells's Kitchen (aka Clinton)
Logged
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1264 on: October 11, 2007, 11:04:33 PM »

Oh, I forgot....Chelsea Clinton was named after a song  entitled CHELSEA MORNING, which was inspired by the writers stay at the Chelsea hotel in Chelsea....so there is a connection....and, as was pointed out, the Chelsea district  abuts the Clinton District....
Logged
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1265 on: October 11, 2007, 11:09:14 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_Chelsea

The Hotel Chelsea---very historical site
Logged
Dzimas
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 4500


I thought you said your name was Nobody.


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1266 on: October 12, 2007, 02:47:54 AM »

It kind of surprised me that PRR was disappointed that the best route terminated in the Tenderloin district.  I would have thought they would have been glad to go into a run-down community where property values were cheaper. That's what drives large-scale development today.  It was interesting the way Jonnes dovetailed the social history with the industrial history of the enterprise, noting how efforts to clean up the Tenderloin district paved the way for the Pennsylvania Station.  Even still, the PRR had to make their plans to buy out the district secret as long as possible, to avoid rampant speculation.  Funny, that she noted a couple of old ladies holding out to the end, and getting the best prices for their property.  I guess eminent domain was still a relatively new concept back then, even if it had been around since Feudal Times, but then I guess if the property had been taken for public use, it couldn't serve as a private terminal, and PRR would have had to open up its tunnels to other railroads as well.
Logged
Dzimas
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 4500


I thought you said your name was Nobody.


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1267 on: October 12, 2007, 03:07:58 AM »

It seemed that what drove Cassat the most in his quest to conquer Gotham was outflanking Vanderbilt, especially after Vanderbilt pulled out of the North River Bridge deal.  Jonnes talks about J.P. Morgan early, but doesn't have much to say about him later.  Cassat sought additional financing from France, when I think he could have approached Morgan, but then Morgan would have wanted his railroads to have access to the tunnels and the station as well.  These guys were like Feudal lords, battling over turf.
Logged
madupont
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 5413


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1268 on: October 12, 2007, 02:35:11 PM »

I may be wrong on this, but The Tenderloin District was a police precinct located in the upper section of Chelsea. It was frequented in that era by prostitutes and all sorts of con men and was a lucrative post for a policeman on the take--hence the name "tenderloin" with a double ententre (sic) twist...I 'll try and track it down in GOTHAM. I think Chelsea extends from 23rd street to Hells's Kitchen (aka Clinton)

Logged
madupont
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 5413


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1269 on: October 12, 2007, 02:44:25 PM »

I knew something was wrong with the reply that I received. Here is what I was posting in response to Bob:

How to explain this...?  Over in movies or television forums one day,harrie and I were discussing Lt. Briscoe, so while I perused his obits for fond memories, she found the You-Tube rendition of Jerry Orbach singing, Try to Remember. And he did, he kept his apartment in Clinton and always stopped in at the state-house when passing by. His cleaning lady had his "head shot",  the large photo that your agent distributes for auditions when you start out, forever on display in her cleaning establishment.
Logged
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1270 on: October 12, 2007, 08:27:48 PM »

According to GOTHAM, the tenderloin is between  37th Street and 50th Street. See page 747 in GOTHAM

I re-read Jonnes at page 67 where she defines the Tenderloin as being bounded by Fifth and Ninth Avenues between 23rd nd 42nd Streets. That's too wide and long for me. However, if you look up these various districts on the web or on maps you can see some variations in  them. My favorite practical source, the one I can't reference here, is the map found attached to the rear of the front seat of every NYC Cab---I'll have to steal one if I can the next time I go to New York.

I found Chapter seven to be one of the more interesting one's because of the background it gives on life in New York--or a part of it. I remember, though, reading some of the reviews of the book which warned that there were irritating little errors in the text---and I think this might be one.

I'm still interested in the posts regarding railroad rebates and the Cassat's handling of Andrew Carnegie. I have the new Carnegie biography and haven't read it, but I plan to read the section on Cassat and Carnegie over this weekend and then I'll comment on it. Dzimas also posted a link to THE AGE OF BETRAYAL--a new book on the Gilded Age which I've put off buying---but now I think I'll get it as it has two chapters on the Carnegie thing, but with Thomas Scott, one of my favorite villans, as the star on the PRR side.  (Here goes another $30--I should buy stock in B&N)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 08:52:41 PM by Bob » Logged
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1271 on: October 12, 2007, 08:58:13 PM »

Book Alert:

Gary Wills published another one: HEAD AND HEART: AMERICAN CHRISTIANITIES. It's a history of Christianity's place in American life from the Puritans up to Bush. I'll start it over the wekend.

There's a new short biography of TR out: LION IN THE WHITE HOUSE by Aida Donald
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 09:03:21 PM by Bob » Logged
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1272 on: October 12, 2007, 10:43:50 PM »

Bob,

Thanks for the book recommendations. I may look into that TR book, since I enjoyed the Nathan Miller biography.

Today I got "Practicing History", but not yet "The March of Folly".

In the meantime, I've been reading another book I believe you mentioned, How The Indians Lost Their Land. It has been very interesting, especially learning how STUPID the Supreme Court under John Marshall was in mis-defining the right of the Indians to own their own land. Really, what does it matter if they used it like Europeans did, the fact is that they were using it, and they were dispossessed of it, which led to their downfall and subsequent poverty. The Indians should be the wealthy of the land, since at the time the country was begun, it was land that had the most value. Court decision which determined the wealth of the Native tribes, and not a single Native was consulted on the accuracy of the postulates! How many times were amnesties granted for the scoff-laws who squatted on Indian land, despoiled it, and then claimed ownership of it, and the courts simply gave it, and never prosecuted them. Puts a whole different spin on the claim of many today that we should push out those immigrant "squatters" who are coming into a country with a "tradition" of being a "law-abiding nation".
Logged
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1273 on: October 12, 2007, 11:08:31 PM »

I found Chapter seven to be one of the more interesting one's because of the background it gives on life in New York


Chapters 8,9,10 are essentially a continuation of 7. Baldwin valiantly persists in his reform campaign with Tammany hoodlums readily sidestepping his efforts.  NYS also attempted to stop the Tiger through its Mazet Committee.  The efforts at social reformation in Chelsea-Hell's Kitchen works to some extent as certain sin palaces are closed down.

The PRR's petition to create a charter for its Pennsylvania Railroad's New York Tunnel and Terminal Extension is successful. ''Electricity and modern science have made it possible for us to do this thing'' said Baldwin. The tunnel plan is illustrated on p 91. But the tunnel could not be dug under NYC's streets without overcoming the many bureaucratic hurdles that existed.  Luckily, Seth Low was elected as NYC mayor and he helped overcome those hurdles.

NYC was a sea of progress as construction was taking place everywhere with the expansion of the subways with ''new skyscrapers shooting up on all sides''.


pp 73-98
Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1274 on: October 13, 2007, 08:03:44 PM »

I was reading  in Nasaw's ANDREW CARNEGIE on how Thomas Scott was the guy who put Andrew Carnie on the map as it were. It was Scott who nurtured Carnegie and used his talents as an employee of PRR. Carnegie worked under Scott for several years before branching out on his own---and when I say he worked for Scott I mean he worked for him right at his side. Many of the devices used by Carnegie came from Scott, so that when it came time for the deals between the PRR and Carnegie Steel to be set, the two very close friends had no problem understanding each other or setting the details. Later on they would break over Carnegie's refusal to secure a loan Scott needed to save the PRR from a lot of grief, but ultimately they were close associates. Jonnes doesn't point that out, not that it was necessary to do so--but it's the reason I wanted to do some reading on the subject. 

By the way, I looked at the new book referrred to earlier on the Gilded Age and that author points out that Thomas Scott was as much a Robber Baron as the rest of them, but is seldom mentioned because he left no paper trail behind him, leaving researchers and historians in a lurch. But if you read enough on the Gilded Age he keeps popping up.

Another thing which keeps popping up is the Texas and Pacific RR, Stephen Douglas's dreamed of Southern Route which led to his proposing and passing the Kansas Nebraska Act and which was a center-piece in the Compromise of 1877. I wonder if there are any histories of the RR. The breakup between Carnegie and Scott involved Scott trying to save the little treasure, which he subsequently did--but no thanks to Carnegie.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 08:06:41 PM by Bob » Logged
Pages: 1 ... 83 84 [85] 86 87 ... 165
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!