Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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Author Topic: American History  (Read 29382 times)
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Bob
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« Reply #1290 on: October 15, 2007, 08:12:15 PM »

madupont: What we were talking about at the time occured during Pontiac's War, a short lived, and very justified  revolt by Indians in Ohio I believe. A group of White Settlers in Pennsylavania, moved hsyteria rather than reality, went into the local community and massacred  peaceful Indians and then started to move South to keep their raids going. These were known as the Paxton Boys. The reality was that the nearest hostile Indians were a couple of hundred miles away from the scene of the masssacre and posed no threat to Paxton at all. It was a very tragic event in the history of Pennsylvania. The Indians involved were passive nd peaceful and has the guarantee, through a treaty with Penn himself that they could live in peace in the area in which they resided.

If you google PAXTON BOYS, there's a lot on in the Internet.
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Bob
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« Reply #1291 on: October 15, 2007, 08:34:32 PM »

Since its been a while since I read the book, I'll take part of tonight to re-read chapters 13 to 15 so I can pick up on the conversation after a long weekend.

(I just read Chapter 13, which is a very vivid description of how the entire project actually was done in four sections, starting in Harrison New Jersey and ending up in Penn Station.  I used to wonder when I rode the trains to NY why Harrison was a station at all since it was right next to Newark. We eould barely get ourt of Penn Station in Newark when the train would stop at Harrison. By then, of course locomotives were rare and when there were locomotives they would go into Hoboken, while the electric trains would go to Jersey City)

I was always awed at the sight of locomotives on the DL&W route through the Oranges and Newark partly becuse they would travel over a concrete bridge  between Brick Church (East Orange) and and then descend into the Ampere station, only to go elevated through a small section of Newark. The bridge would actually vibrate. The train would "amble" through going no more than  about 15 mph...all this is based on memory. Most of the trains on that line were already electrified (overhead wires).
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #1292 on: October 15, 2007, 09:09:07 PM »

regardless  of that I  think the book is rally good.


I did not mean to suggest that the book was not good.  On the contrary, it is quite readable. It's just the point that she is needlessly overselling that particular idea.

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thanatopsy
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« Reply #1293 on: October 15, 2007, 09:17:41 PM »

Re Native American history, a true legend passed away recently:

http://www.startribune.com/466/story/1483509.html

''Vernon Bellecourt, a longtime leader of the American Indian Movement, died Saturday. He was 75 ... In recent years, Bellecourt was active in the fight against American Indian nicknames for sports teams as president of the National Coalition on Racism in Sports and Media ... "He was willing to put his butt on the line to draw attention to racism in sports."





He was also very active in anti war efforts and was a beloved figure here in Minnesota.
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weezo
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« Reply #1294 on: October 15, 2007, 09:35:45 PM »

Than,

Interesting story about Bellecorte. Seems like a good modern addition to my Native Americans on Famous Americans. What tribe was he from? The article says "White Earth Nation", but that is not a familiar name to me. Does the tribe have an older (including more controversial) name?

I just did the stats for the Famous Americans pages for the past two weeks, and topped 50,000 visits in the past month since I started the stats. Women beat out all other categories, and Helen Keller's page had more hits than any other, although last week, Columbus looked like he could push her off her throne. But his numbers fell down this week, so she still has top bill. Jeff Davis came in dead last of the 115 pages.


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thanatopsy
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« Reply #1295 on: October 15, 2007, 09:56:58 PM »

http://www.whiteearth.com/home.html


White earth is a band of Minnesota Ojibwe.

Note how the web site home page does not mention his name --- I believe it is because he was no longer active in their affairs. He lived and worked in Minneapolis which is a sort of Mecca for numerous tribes of various language groups such as Siouan and Algonquins.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #1296 on: October 16, 2007, 03:23:50 AM »

Seems like we are encountering "blow holes" in the discussion of Conquering Gotham.  Strangely, it isn't a book that invites much discussion.  Jonnes does a nice job capturing the work on the tunnels and the men and events surrounding this bold undertaking, but it is all pretty much straight ahead writing.  It had a BOMC quality to it.  Anyway, I find the period fascinating, because it was the formative period of an industrial America, which developed into a powerful juggernaut that would soon take the world by storm, much as China is developing today.  However, I don't know if it was so much great vision on the part of these industrialists, as it was a powerful sense of entitlement.
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weezo
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« Reply #1297 on: October 16, 2007, 05:38:33 AM »

Than,

Thanks for the information on White Earth. I will explore it further, and I think Bellecort will make a nice addition to my Famous Americans page. I've never been able to decide which side of the fence I'm on regarding Peltier. I suspect justice would have been better served had he been convicted of obstructing justice rather than just pinning the murders on him because he wouldn't give up the name of the actual shooter.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #1298 on: October 16, 2007, 06:43:55 AM »


I've never been able to decide which side of the fence I'm on regarding Peltier. I suspect justice would have been better served had he been convicted of obstructing justice rather than just pinning the murders on him because he wouldn't give up the name of the actual shooters.


According to the documentary, Incident at Oglala, Peltier wasn't even there at the time the fatal shootings took place,

http://www.amazon.com/Incident-Oglala-Leonard-Peltier-Story/dp/6302541468
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weezo
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« Reply #1299 on: October 16, 2007, 12:04:15 PM »

Oh dear,

Another of those situations like Death in the Haymarket, where the convict a handy person because they supposedly threatened some violence( even obscurely) and then weren't even on the scene. If everyone who got mad and threatened violence were locked up for life, we'd have no free people running around.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #1300 on: October 16, 2007, 12:22:32 PM »

Basically, the FBI wanted to break the back of the AIM.  Not that its leadership had the most savory background.  Many had crimimal records, including Peltier I believe, but their biggest crime, it seemed, was to challenge the long arm of the American justice system.  Matthiessen does a pretty good job of covering the rise and fall of AIM In the Spirit of Crazy Horse as well as the whole sordid history of Pine Ridge Reservation,

http://www.amazon.com/Spirit-Crazy-Horse-Peter-Matthiessen/dp/0140144560

which makes excellent reading and discussion.
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weezo
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« Reply #1301 on: October 16, 2007, 01:08:59 PM »

Thanks,

I'll put that book on my to-buy list. I've just restocked my reading materials so it will be a while until I get around to it. But, it looks like the sort of book I would enjoy reading.

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madupont
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« Reply #1302 on: October 16, 2007, 03:16:52 PM »

weezo,

There is also the problem  of  avoiding further attention brought to bear, so White America will take a likeliest target, although truth be told, you understand many BIA men, policemen as such, go along with this program,but I am refering to a larger complicity of discouraging leadership in minority groups, by rigging that aspect of justice.

Nowadays, it is quicker done with spin of a political nature, by badmouthing across the boards. Two things come to mind, spinning Barack Obama as  having less experience and credibility, until it looks like no credibility. Or, the other thing, number one, if you catch somebody out making an injudicious slip of the tongue in momemtary banter about what is elsewhere an issue of pc(political correctness), you can spin like crazy as in the circumstance of Isaiah Washington.

Nine times out of ten the chat room or blog forum will then debate whether or not the black community approves or does not of whatever the percentage of which side of the offense/defense is approved of in the community, which is usually, my church approves or my church does not approve, meanwhile forgetting anybody who ever did anything for the community like James Baldwin or especially Bayard Rustin.   

But in every case, a little damage will go a long way.

I certainly changed my opinion of Tom Daschle as the result of the more that I learned about the Peltier problem.

Incidentally, besides the Matthiessen book, the book that I mistakenly pointed out to nytempsperdu by George M. Marshall III (Lakota Sioux) while discussing Medicine Crow who actually was Crow, in regard to J.Burns,The War, and for which I apologised in misconstruing which part of the country he was from(Montana, not Minnesota, therefore I had the context wrong about what he did and why) is just the same very valid on the topic of Crazy Horse, as Marshall continues the oral tradition of telling the stories that he was told by his older male relatives who would take him out to ride to the spots where things  had happened in the context of battle.

1.     
 The Lakota Way: Stories and Lessons for Living by Joseph M. Marshall III (Paperback - Oct 29, 2002)
2.     
 The Journey Of Crazy Horse: A Lakota History by Joseph M. Marshall III (Hardcover - Oct 7, 2004)
3.     
 Walking With Grandfather: The Wisdom of Lakota Elders by Joseph M., III Marshall (Hardcover - Nov 2005)

My mistake is floating around somewhere in Meander.
 

http://tinyurl.com/22m779
in particular look inside the book at the back flap (on-line at Amazon) because George M.Marshall III is in photo

 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 04:35:29 PM by madupont » Logged
madupont
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« Reply #1303 on: October 16, 2007, 03:20:53 PM »

Thanks, Bob, for reminding me that it was those Paxton Boys.
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madupont
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« Reply #1304 on: October 16, 2007, 03:44:18 PM »


Seems like we are encountering "blow holes" in the discussion of Conquering Gotham.  Strangely, it isn't a book that invites much discussion.  Jonnes does a nice job capturing the work on the tunnels and the men and events surrounding this bold undertaking, but it is all pretty much straight ahead writing.  It had a BOMC quality to it.  Anyway, I find the period fascinating, because it was the formative period of an industrial America, which developed into a powerful juggernaut that would soon take the world by storm, much as China is developing today.  However, I don't know if it was so much great vision on the part of these industrialists, as it was a powerful sense of entitlement.


I'm wondering if anybody happened to catch what I assume is the latest Bill Maher, Real Time? I tuned in just as he was interviewing a young lady who has published a new book on this corporate industry problem, although Eisenhower warned us, she says the problem has changed, which we all recognize, that now politicians think that is why they are elected and what they are there for -- to protect the interests of corporations by giving them favors in exchange for at least one nice contribution to a particular politician's campaign.

Krugman happened to be sitting in on this panel, at one end, with Joy Behar on the other, and some fast-jive talking politico in the middle was rationalizing this issue as well as the paying for Blackwater mercenaries to defend "Diplomats" (to which Maher responded,"C'mon, with that many diplomats to protect, we would have been out of there by now). Paul Krugman being the sensible member of the panel piped up, " not with my taxes. The Marines have always been there at any and every embassy". One point that the young writer brought up, which was agreed upon my Krugman, is that this is no longer just an American problem of Corporations in the Military-Industrial Complex, but is an International problem involved people as diverse as Russians or Chinese where the interests of the corporation are the interests of the nation. Of course this took them off in another direction about the reality of the repetition of the spin on Iran is going to attack and how this was repeated by Secretary Rice in addressing Putin, so that everybody goes,"Huh? why is Iran going to attack Europe?" But that is the justification that Rice is using.

The emphasis as the young writer had pointed out is the creation of the scare, so that you can take advantage of the aftermath of the scare, while your constituents are blown-away and will do anything you want to justify attacking whomever you name as the perpetrator.

So consider this if you will, the continuation of how to spin Peltier, on the larger scale, of spinning Iran which has a better return rate on the Stock Exchange.
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