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Author Topic: American History  (Read 30259 times)
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Bob
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« Reply #1590 on: December 01, 2007, 05:29:30 PM »

Speaking of  stuff like that, I spent a little time researching how the Congregationalist Adams family ended up Unitarian. For some reason I never knew that Unitarianism emerged from Congregationalism. I never knew that John Adams got caught up in the transitionary phase at his church and went down the Unitarian path, forsaking traditional Congregationalism. John Hancock's father was the minister at the church attended by Adams in Braintree and preached traditional Congregational theology. He was succeeded by Lemuel Briant, who preached the Unitarianism of William Elliot Channing. This created a serious split in the congregation and John Adams Senior (father of John Adams) got caught up in it--he was the Church Deacon. When the dust settled the Adams family tilted to Channing and thus became Unitarian.

I never knew that---and I'm surprise with how much I've read about Adams that I never ran across it before. I found it in  the newest biography of Adams :JOHN ADAMS: PARTY OF ONE by James Grant on page 24...now I'll have top read the whole thing---later on, of course.

I just started Joseph Ellis's AMERICAN CREATION.
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nytempsperdu
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« Reply #1591 on: December 01, 2007, 06:32:41 PM »

I've debated whether to mention this, but I confess my gaydar went off when Adams met John Hay.  There, I've said it.  If I'm entirely out of line, I'm sure I'll get told loud and clear and in no uncertain terms.
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pugetopolis
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« Reply #1592 on: December 01, 2007, 09:05:33 PM »



I've debated whether to mention this, but I confess
my gaydar went off when Adams met John Hay. 


 Huh Huh Huh

Your gaydar?

My dear nytempsperdu, what do you mean by that?

I thought you were heterosexual?

If you've got "gaydar," I guess you're lesbian maybe?

Or a little bisexual? Only gays have gaydar, my dear.

Does this "gaydar" thing of yours act up every once in blue moon?

Or is it something that you've always relied on for historical insights?

Just curious. I hope you're not confusing "gaydar" with "prejudice," my dear.

You see, that's something completely different. In the GLBT community that is...

But then I'm sure a grown-up woman like you knows that...

Right?

« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 04:27:13 AM by pugetopolis » Logged

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pugetopolis
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« Reply #1593 on: December 02, 2007, 12:29:17 AM »


Smitten


"very much like that of one smitten." 
 


Well, my dear, I didn’t realize you were such a gay rights advocate.

Perhaps some of that famous SF gaydar rubbed off on you…

I must confess—I’m completely smitten with your presence now.

I'm sure the GLBT Movement is proud of you and so am I...

Long live Miss Hay and Miss Adams!!!

Long live American History gaydar…


« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 04:28:16 AM by pugetopolis » Logged

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« Reply #1594 on: December 02, 2007, 12:58:22 AM »


Gaydar Over in the American History Forum

http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,49.msg47864.html#msg47864

BTW this has been such a stimulating conversation that
I've decided to post the above conversation over in the
Gay Rights Forum so they can join in with the discussion...

It's the kind of heartwarming dialog that makes me proud
of being a member of the GLBT Community. With such
ardent supporters as "nytempsperdu" then surely this
coming election will make it possible for Gay Marriage
to finally come true!!!

If historical personages like Miss Hay and Miss Adams
can do it, then surely we more humble homosexuals can
join with our straight brothers and sisters in the Joys and
Privileges of Holy Matrimony!!!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 04:28:56 AM by pugetopolis » Logged

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Bob
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« Reply #1595 on: December 02, 2007, 09:56:06 AM »

Until it was posted here I never heard of the term before, but I have met people, heterosexual people, who seem to possess the ability described. It sometimes comes in handy when treating people to know their sexual preference for any number of reasons. I work with someone whose ability in this area is quite remarkable and thus he is quite valuable.

But on the subject of Hay and Adams themselves there's no evidence to my knowledge that they were anything but heterosexuial. The language of the day was such that the words used were more initimate than we find today. You will often find expressions of love and attachment in letters between men of that era and before.
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pugetopolis
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« Reply #1596 on: December 02, 2007, 03:26:27 PM »

Hay and Adams


But on the subject of Hay and Adams themselves there's no evidence
to my knowledge that they were anything but heterosexuial.


That's what I thought, Bob, and after going through my GLBT Library last night I couldn't find very much about any "supposed" attraction or relationship between Hay and Adams. Perhaps there's some scholarship somewhere on the Internet or elsewhere about Adams being "smitten" with Hay that would enlighten me?

But just using one's "intuition" about such matters -- whether one calls it "gaydar" or whatever -- well, that doesn't seem to me to be authentic historical research or commentary one way or another.

Usually I've heard of "gaydar" being used by gays to "out" closet-cases like Senator Craig the Tea Room Queen... but then Craig seems to have done that very well on his own without anybody using their fine-tuned gaydar intuitions... 

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

I thought about gaydar and the elusive role of gays in Amercian History last night...

If I may, I'd like to share my thoughts with you in my next message?


« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 03:30:02 PM by pugetopolis » Logged

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« Reply #1597 on: December 02, 2007, 03:50:08 PM »

American History, Gaydar and Writing
 
As a gay writer—I’m interested in gay words.
 
Especially words like “gaydar” and to a certain extent archaic words like “smitten” when applied to contemporary or historic homoerotic relationships.
 
Naturally, I did a little research on “gaydar”—such as read through the Wayne Dynes Encyclopedia of Homosexuality (1990). I didn’t find much on gaydar or smitten—but I did find something about myself:
 
“Postwar American Poetry. After WWII, some new homosexual poetic voices were heard in America, such as Paul Goodman, Jack Spicer, and Allen Ginsberg, with the latter attaining world fame in the context of the beat generation. Honesty increased as more and more poets “came out” at the same time pornography laws were being struck down by me courts. There are new numerous homosexual poets in North America such as Edward Field, Richard Howard, Dennis Kelly, James Merrill, and James Schuyler.”—Encyclopedia of Homosexuality, New York: 1990, page 1010.

I mention this because my gay radar senses a blip on my Elba screen.

I’m not bashful about being a gay activist poet—in fact that’s derigeur for homosexual literary pursuits.

I’m used to being politicized and criticized these past 30 years for my gay books like Chicken (1979) and Size Queen (1981)—both published in San Francisco by Gay Sunshine Press. I’ve been pushing for gay marriage and other GLBT issues thru my publications for a long time now—with or without the help of closet-cases like Senators Craig and Senator Lott…
 
So naturally, I’m interested when words like "gaydar" pop-up in the NYTimes or Elba discussions. And naturally—or perhaps unnaturally—depending on how homophobic the context of the argument presents itself, I’m more than willing to bend over backwards to further my modest understanding of words like “gaydar” and the English language in general.
 
For example, the word “gaydar” is a somewhat politically charged word in the sense that I’ve always heard it used in a gay context—usually having to do with “reading somebody’s beads” as with the recent Republican homosexual revelations in the Beltway as well as here in Washington State.
 
Dan Savage’s recent expose “Straight Acting” about the resignation of GOP state Rep. Richard Curtis in The Stranger (November 7, 2007) comes to mind—along with many other examples of gay activist “gaydar” journalism at work:

“One of all the pleasures Curtis pursued during his adventures in Spokane, the hour or two he spent at the Northern Quest Casino in the middle of the night mystifies me most. Who doesn't enjoy blowjobs and buttfucking? As for crossdressing, well, it's not my thing, but I can see how it could turn some men on. Rope and stethoscopes? I feel compelled to admit that I've got a few bondage and medical toys at home.”

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=433857
 
Having a good sense of “gay radar”, i.e. recognizing fellow gays online or at work or downtown, is important for members of the GLBT community when confronted with homophobic closet-case types— especially during Election times when these issues always come up.

In fact, having a good sense of “gay radar” is a survival tool that all gays and lesbians have had to use to get jobs and survive the workplace and keep a roof over their heads—before, during and after the Stonewall Days when GLBT rights emerged historically as more than just a “go to the back of the bus” issue in American politics. Equality for gays and lesbians is still a long ways off... but like any civil rights movement it takes time and grief like the aids epidemic. Trolls always will let us know how much progress we're making, right? Trolls and disinformation artists...
 
I’m “smitten” you might say by being a gay American today...

Whether as a gay poet or member of the GLBT community.

In fact, my gaydar tells me someday we’ll have not only national gay marriage—

But also a gay Poet Laureate to celebrate the Gay American Experience.     

Of course, it may take another century or two—but I’m patient…    Grin
 
 

« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 03:58:41 PM by pugetopolis » Logged

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madupont
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« Reply #1598 on: December 02, 2007, 09:51:47 PM »

Would anyone be interested in today's news before tomorrow is here?

US claims kidnap is lawful
The US considers it lawful to kidnap foreign citizens, including Britons, wanted for any crime in America. Until now it had been thought that 'rendition' - kidnapping foreign citizens and forcibly bringing them to the US - would only be endorsed for terrorist suspects. But lawyer Alun Jones QC, contesting an extradition case in London, revealed the Supreme Court sanctions rendition for suspects for any criminal offence. (Sunday Times)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2982640.ece

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« Reply #1599 on: December 03, 2007, 10:10:33 AM »

I'm lurking and don't qualify to have any sort of opinion, but some of the recent posts seem to mostly be off topic, by extrapolatiion, even though the posts do seem to want to be on topic.   Sad
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madupont
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« Reply #1600 on: December 03, 2007, 10:42:43 AM »

That's all right. The opinions expressed in almost all recent posts are mostly suspect from the get go. Possibly with the exception* of Thanatopsy who seems to stay on top of what has happened in America. I think he'd like to know that there is a lovely coat of snow back in New York,to match Minnesota(well not quite), which means people can really enjoy Central Park but computer-centered clerks in the far warehouse offices of Italian importers are shivering as we speak in their unheated workplaces.

I see what appears to be a steel grey sky from horizon to horizon threatening to drop snow on us at any time but  the sun so far breaks through hoping to make it until noon.  That's the weather report for the day.

* we also make an exception for Bob whom I thought should get the latest on our Constitutional laws shifting and taking a dive, because he did provide a hint of what sexual preference has to do with hospital policy and kept it neat. This ability of discernment is diagnostic and most physicians recognize the G factor in varying degrees, sometimes because of the unusual cases that come their way or they are asked to remedy. I've heard the details since I was your grand-daughter's age. Which has certainly helped me to navigate hospitals as an adult employee through corridors, and departments, and offices with copying machines when you send out lab reports in triplicate.
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« Reply #1601 on: December 03, 2007, 12:45:12 PM »

Bob, yours was the first comment in the opening of the Reading Group discussion of The Education of Henry Adams over at the NYT.  You came down pretty hard.  Glad my toe wasn't in the way.   Smiley
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pugetopolis
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« Reply #1602 on: December 03, 2007, 04:41:38 PM »


I'm lurking and don't qualify to have any sort of opinion, but some of the recent posts seem to mostly be off topic, by extrapolatiion, even though the posts do seem to want to be on topic.   Sad

Donotremove—actually I’ve never viewed you as a mere “Lurker” in the dark recesses of the digital background…

You were always a charming Host back in The Book Lounge of The New York Times Book Forum and I always enjoyed your even-handed and nonchalant attitude toward whatever and whoever came your way. You were never pushy or opinionated—never elitist or full of class consciousness like some people,   

The Elba Meandering Forum is fine—but I do miss The Book Lounge and the NYTimes forum system. Elba is much better in some ways through—more flexible, less dogmatic about staying on point and more creative with the addition of Images to Threads.

I trust I didn’t get too much off topic with my footnote about gay American History—most of the time I post in Fiction, Poetry and the Movie Club. I’ve enjoyed reading the History Forum though—as well as Bob’s fine moderatorship both back at The New York Times and here at Elba. Thank you.       


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« Reply #1603 on: December 03, 2007, 07:18:27 PM »

Having concluded reading Megan Marshall's The Peabody Sisters and in now reading Paula Blanchard's Margaret Fuller, it is quite evident that New England education was influenced by Transcendentalists.  Miss Fuller, the Peabodys, Mrs Rippley, Horace Mann --- all believed that education revolved around the study of ancient classics, Greek + Latin, and a knowledge of philosophy.

While this was undoubtedly true of life up to the 19th century, it was becoming evident that educational reform was needed if one was to thrive in the rapidly advancing 20th century.  A classics education may have been helpful in stimulating one's creativity and thinking processes.  But it would not suffice to help one advance in the changing society.

HB Adams indicated that science and technology were advancing very rapidly and that mere book knowledge without a sound knowledge of utilitarian subjects would not be sufficient to advance the interests of growing youth. Indeed, the industrial revolution was advancing rapidly.  In fact, it was snowballing in growth and progress. Educational reform would be needed.

While the Transcendentalists practiced and advocated self-education, such a recourse was and remains highly impractical in the world of science and technology. Adams writes of self education as well.  But its application in the emerging and progressing world cannot be done without institutional education. 

I'm up to ch 20 and as yet have not seen what reforms he suggested to make that type of education available so that everyone could partake of that advancement but will read on.
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« Reply #1604 on: December 05, 2007, 05:56:24 PM »

``In any and all its form, the boy {HBA} detested school, and the prejudice became deeper with years. He always reckoned his school-days, from ten to sixteen years old, as time thrown away.''

While he did value multilingualism (French, German, Spanish = all languages of diplomacy) math was the only school subject he held to have any value.

HBA went on to criticize those additions to education that we generally value such as sports, crafts, hobbies, and only had praise for classic books.


pp 29, 30


Frankly, HBA's negativity is troubling and does not make for light hearted reading.

He despised ''blackguards'' (bullies - and don't we all!) and held slavery in the greatest contempt.  ''Bad roads meant bad morals'' as ''slavery was wicked, and slavery was the cause of this road's badness which amounted to a social crime''  {p 36}.  His few words of praise were generally reserved for his father CFA and for Charles Sumner whom, if you recall from our earlier reading was the # 1 disciple of his honored grandfather JQ Adams.


Harvard College Years 1854-1858

While praising the Unitarianism of the faculty for its open mindedness, HBA determined that the school had no specific aim or moral purpose. Thus, his four years were ''wasted'' as Harvard was ''a negative force''.

''Life is a narrow valley, and the roads run close together ... the valley of life grew more and more narrow with years.''

The one lesson he learned at Harvard was composure.  The education there, as little as it was (or so he thought) did at least prepare him for the world even if it was only just a bit.

pp 42-53



Perhaps HBA could have admitted just a little more than being a blue stocking helped open up doors for him that were not always open for others.

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