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Exiles of the New York Times
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Author Topic: American History  (Read 30264 times)
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Bob
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« Reply #150 on: May 14, 2007, 08:15:15 PM »

Sources----everybody likes sources:

THE BIRTH OF BLACK AMERICA: THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICANS AND THE PURSUIT OF FREEDOM AT JAMESTOWN  by Tim Hashaw has the clearest account. His book is about 6 months old. Otherwise you have to piece the story together by combining British and American histories. Hashaw tells it as simply as I've ever read it and has really detailed footnotes using original sources. The  whole affair is really complicated so the reader has to keep his mind concentrated to pick everything up. Hashaw also describes the Angolan empire and the war which resulted in the slaves being shipped here, but whose original destination was Mexico.

For an overall history of the Colony I suggest  SAVAGE KINGDOM by Benjamin Wooley--but there's nary a hint of the scandal in there, it the standard version, but very well organized and well written.
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Bob
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« Reply #151 on: May 14, 2007, 08:17:27 PM »

After we're done with the Slave Scandal maybe we can talk about Opechancanough--he fascinated me when I was reading the book.
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weezo
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« Reply #152 on: May 14, 2007, 08:18:34 PM »

Bob,

Thanks for the clarification.

Speaking of pirate and privateers reminds me of what a 1st grade teacher said to me about John Paul Jones a number of years ago. Virginia had just compiled their SOLs (learning objectives), and each grade in elementary school had a list of "famous Americans" that were to be learned during that year. On the 1st grade list was John Paul Jones. After the first year, and seeing that the state provided nothing in the way of resources to the teachers to teach this section of social studies, I started my Famous Americans web site. Before I finished, John Paul Jones was pulled off the list.

But in that eventful year, the 1st grade teacher's class came by my computer lab, all wearing huge dark blue floppy construction paper hats, looking, of course, like the cat's meow! Of course, I asked what the hats were for, and the teacher deferred to the students, to reply that they were John Paul Jones hats. I accordingly admired them. The teacher, aside, told me she was at a loss what to teach her little ones about a man who had spent most of his life as a pirate!

When I first did the a Flash program on Pocahontas, right after I retired, I used a DeBry/White picture of an Indian woman with little girl. I ran it by an friend still teaching in an elementary school, and she told me point blank that teachers would not use the Flash biography with the picture of the clearly naked and clearly a little girl, on it. So, I used Photoshop and scrubbed a bit of cloth over the girl, and it was fine, and is greatly appreciated. Sometimes, especially for elementary students, reality can be too real!

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Bob
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« Reply #153 on: May 15, 2007, 04:14:00 AM »

It was a scandal because Rich was screwing his King, undermining his policies, violating treaties, and making a bundle of bucks on the side. He had padded the payroll in Virginia and used the Company for his private profit and to instigate a war with Spain. If anyone did that today, they would  have him in prison for at least 50 years.

As to Slavery, it was common in those days, but not in England. The King was opposed to slavery and opposed to privateeering, legal or illegal. For Rich and his men to bring Africans into Jamestown was a very big event indeed. The Spanish wanted their property back--this was just the type of dispute Rich wanted--he wanted England and Spain at each other's throat. The difficulty was it was hard to determine the legal status of the Africans--were they indentured servants (perfectly legal) or were they slaves (not so legal).  To this day it's hard to answer the question except to say that within 15 or 20 years slavery was well established in Virginia.

Rich, by the way, was quite a survivor and was an instigator of the English Civil War years later. I wonder if there arny biograhies of him?
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Bob
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« Reply #154 on: May 15, 2007, 04:20:28 AM »

Good ole John Paul Jones....he's an object lesson in how one can be a hero and a bum at the same time. It all depends on whose ox is being gored...it all depends on from what angle one looks at things. Ther's good and bad in all of us. I can't recall, but was John Paul Jones a privateer? Don't forget privateering was not only legal, but was looked on as patriotice. Private enterprise was doing the job the national navy could not. Privateers were not pirates, except, of course, in the eyes of those who  were targets under the letters of marque--it all depends on whose side one was on.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2007, 07:02:55 AM »

Started in on Taylor's American Colonies.  Nice the way he described the pre-history of America, noting that it is speculative at best.  He made a number of salient observations such as Anasazi being a generic term (derived from Navajo as I remembered) and that the pueblo Indians were forced to relocate to the Rio Grande and other areas of the Four Corners Region due to an extended draught.  Also talks a bit about the Mississippi region, noting the immense size of the earth mounds that dwarfed the Aztec and Mayan pyramids of Meso-America.  Bob, are we going to have the discussion on American Colonies here are at the other site?
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Bob
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« Reply #156 on: May 15, 2007, 05:43:11 PM »

Well, No...there a lot more in the Rountree book than Pocahontas. There's the whole way of life of the Powhatan peoples and of Powhatan himself and his half brother Opechancanough. We can spend weeks discussing the book.
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Bob
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« Reply #157 on: May 15, 2007, 05:47:50 PM »

Started in on Taylor's American Colonies.  Nice the way he described the pre-history of America, noting that it is speculative at best.  He made a number of salient observations such as Anasazi being a generic term (derived from Navajo as I remembered) and that the pueblo Indians were forced to relocate to the Rio Grande and other areas of the Four Corners Region due to an extended draught.  Also talks a bit about the Mississippi region, noting the immense size of the earth mounds that dwarfed the Aztec and Mayan pyramids of Meso-America.  Bob, are we going to have the discussion on American Colonies here are at the other site?

How did you get the topic to read AMERICAN COLONIES? I don't know how to do that.

Anyhow, I was going hold the AMERICAN COLONIES discussion on the other site since it started there?

I'm going to start reading the book today. I've read sections of it over  the last year or so and I like it.
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weezo
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« Reply #158 on: May 15, 2007, 05:57:23 PM »

Bob,

I am glad to see that the discussion on the Pocahontas book is not at a premature end. There is much more known about Powhatan, and a little bit more than on Pocahontas about Opechacanough. I did enjoy the diversion to Rich and the pirates.

I was reading a mag waiting for the dentist this morning, and there was a big story about Powhatan's Mantle in this glossy coffee-table book. Sadly, it was full of errors. The article had Powhatan on the shore meeting the settlers and presenting them with this mantle on their arrival. Powhatan never went to Jamestown, did not meet them on the shore, but had them brought to him in his state room. And, he gave his "old" mantle to John Smith in exchange for the red suit of clothing and crown with fake jewels. Whatever possessed someone to publish that pile of rubbish!


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Bob
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« Reply #159 on: May 15, 2007, 06:05:55 PM »

Weezo:

I didn't forget the Lenapes... I was up in B&N again today and couldn't find anything decent on the subject, but I haven't looked through my stuff yet'

Participating in forums like this  has  led to a very dramatic increase in the number of book I buy. I collect books anyway, but over the past several years the number of new books I buy as really gone up and there  is a clear connection with the subject being discussed in the forum. Today is no exception. I went to B&N to return a book I bought in error (I already bought the book, in fact I had already read it). While i was looking for something on the Lenapes I ran across a book on the Lost Roanoke Colony. Raleigh's adventure. Anyhow, it has a lot of information on South Carolina Algonquins and some information on Jamestown. You might want to look at when you go to a bookstore or the library. Title: ROANOKE: THE ABANDONED COLONY by Karen Kupperman.  It's in paperback  and goes for $15.95

I read the last two chapters, which were of interest in what we are discussing--colonization and the difficulties which go along with their establishment and also information ofn privateering. (These guys were  a bunch of legitimate thieves--privateering revenues comprised 15% of the national income of England).

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Bob
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« Reply #160 on: May 15, 2007, 06:08:18 PM »

I just read your latest post. There certainly is a lot of misinformation on the subject.

How 'bout we go on to another area from the Rountree book?
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Bob
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« Reply #161 on: May 15, 2007, 06:19:43 PM »

Weezo:

I just remembered where to look in my collection. There are two fine books I have which concentrate on the Northeastern Tribes and Nations. Both will give you good information on the Delaware Nation in Pennsylvania.

INTO THE AMERICAN  WOODS: NEGOTIATORS ON THE PENNSYLVANIA FRONTIER by James H. Merrrell

AT THE CROSSROADS: INDIANS AND EMPIRES ON A MID ATLANTIC FRONTIER  1700-1763  by Jane T. Merritt

Both are available in paperback.
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Bob
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« Reply #162 on: May 15, 2007, 06:22:55 PM »

I have to leave right now, but I'll probably post again before the end of the evening
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weezo
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« Reply #163 on: May 15, 2007, 07:30:54 PM »

Bob,

Thanks for the many book recommendations.

I think you were the one who recommended "What Would Jefferson Do?" by Thom Hartman. I am reading it now and finding in it much ammunition for the discussion on the National forum (the political arguments). I keep finding refutements for the arguments of the conservatives, of which there is one very nasty one in the forum. It will be fun to keep that book nearby, stuck with my innumerable booksmarks of delightful passages.

I have found it amusing how people stick to beliefs. I have an online course called Famous Americans which runs continuously, so people do not get the opportunity to discuss the lessons with each other before doing the assignments and taking the quiz. One of the points in the basic lesson is that we are uncertain which disease claimed Pocahontas' life. There are a number of links to various online resources for the student to peruse, and most of them claim one or another disease as her cause of death. On the quiz, I find a lot of people miss the question on the cause of her death, choosing one specific disease rather than the correct answer "any of the above"..... There is no concensus on which disease they choose, but it is obvious that folks would rather know which one absolutely rather than believe we aren't sure.
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« Reply #164 on: May 15, 2007, 08:53:17 PM »

Playa....I've not read much of   Lerone Bennett Jr  but I have read of how controversial some of his views are. He created a stir a while back with his FORCED INTO GLORY whereion he  charged that Lincoln was a racist. I don't have a copy of BEFORE THE MAYFLOWER, so I can't coment on it. I've always wanted to read it but never got around to ordering a copy.

Yes I have read  comments about the book"Forced Into Glory" .

Before The Mayflower traces black history from it's origins in the Great Empires of Western Africa, the transatlantic journeyto slavery, through Reconstruction, the Jim Crow era, and the civil rights upheavals of the 1960's and 1970's. Interspersed throughout the book are portraits of seminal figures in the struggles for freedom, and a completely updated section high-lights black pioneers and their accomplishmebts.



"One would have to be cursed with a half a heart not to be moved by the human passion recorded here."-The Chicago Tribune
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