Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
June 23, 2018, 07:27:41 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: As you may have noticed, this is a very old backup, I'm still working through restoring the site.  Don't be surprised if you post and it all goes missing....
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 129 130 [131] 132 133 ... 165
  Print  
Author Topic: American History  (Read 29532 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
madupont
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 5413


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1950 on: February 19, 2008, 03:36:25 PM »

I am sure the concept for the poll was quite innocent when the administrator considered it.  That is not the person however  who explained to weezo how it would work. Consider that there may have been quite another agenda.  I've listened to many of the explanations of how Melba's Place came to be, which --
well, I have to consider the naivety of the explainers.
Logged
madupont
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 5413


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1951 on: February 19, 2008, 03:40:58 PM »

re:#1996,  weezo

"I'm rather inclined to believe that the "real" unamerican activities were committed by Joe McCarthy and those who allowed him to operate freely."

That would have been Senator Nixon?  and then a bit further on the ambidextrous Henry Kissinger who thought of Nixon as his tool while Nixon though Henry was his. Baffling many who viewed Henry as an equivocal monster. WW2 apparently led him to want Power.

Logged
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1952 on: February 19, 2008, 03:44:14 PM »

Clark,

My original intent with the poll was to start with the long list, hold the voting for a week to bring it down to manageable size, then have a run-off pole of the most favored books. Unfortunately, instead of following that format, some ran with the book that won the most votes from the long list without letting me compile the shorter list and hold the run-off. That is why I still do not feel that the poll was given a fair chance. It was "run out of town on a pole" before the idea was given a fair chance. And, it seemed to me, that this came about because the book that won the most votes was not well-liked by certain people who have long held sway in the forum.

Those who panned the book did so, often based on inconsequental details, and on the overall attrocity that someone would question the "truth" about Columbus' grand "discovery" and give credit to the !gasp! Chinese instead. I have since read two books that indicate the likelihood that Columbus was NOT the first European to set foot in America, that perhaps a colony of Scots pushed off their islands by the Vikings, occupied parts of what is now Canada, and another book that asserts that the Basque fisherman were highly likely to have made port in America in their use of their "secret" fishing grounds now known as the Grand Banks. Both the Scots and the Basque were also Europeans, but they weren't sent and sanctioned by some royal monarch or other high muckity mucks.

Logged
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1953 on: February 19, 2008, 03:49:28 PM »

Maddie,

Actually, Hogan put more blame on Truman, and later Eisenhower for allowing the military to bulldoze their invention into an accepted belief by the American People. Nixon and Kissinger were mentioned early in their careers, but the book covers the years 1945-1954. The book focuses on what was happening with in the White House and behind the doors of the high administrative officials. Only the last chapter looks are how the American public perceived these goings on, and even then it promises a study of things such as letters to the editor, but mostly talks about the editorial writers.


Logged
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1954 on: February 19, 2008, 03:51:13 PM »

I am glad we are again talking about Prometheus and that we do not have a poll. Smiley
Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1955 on: February 19, 2008, 04:04:40 PM »

~~ Tatlock's suicide ~~

I found this bit of bad news to be very disturbing. For all her faults, Tatlock had a true human heart filled with great compassion for people - esp those who were troubled {this undoubtedly was the reason why she supported leftists causes}. Despite her evident success as a medical practitioner, and her strong commitment to social causes, she lacked the support she needed to help her overcome the inner demons that tormented her. Did the government  have some role in this tragedy?  From the book's notes, there do not appear any convincing proofs of that claim --- one made by her family later on.

Whatever the cause, it was a great loss.

Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
Dzimas
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 4500


I thought you said your name was Nobody.


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1956 on: February 19, 2008, 04:36:50 PM »

Tatlock's death came out of left field.  The authors imply that Oppenheimer continued his affair with her and apparently felt enormous guilt when learning of her suicide.  On the other hand, the authors explore a possible assassination, noting that Pash headed a division of the CIA that carried assassination, even noting that Pash later came up with the idea of poisoned cigars to kill Castro.  Pash felt that Oppenheimer was passing along military secrets to Tatlock, although nothing was ever shown to indicate this, although Tatlock's father apparently did a very thorough job of destroying her correspondence.  Seems that Oppenheimer had a very strong relationship with Tatlock, which he was never able to get over.  I wonder if this in part led to Kitty's drinking problems.
Logged
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1957 on: February 19, 2008, 08:27:30 PM »

Quote
there is an interesting connection beween Un-Americanism/Un-American Activies, anti-Communism,anti-Semitism....

Taking the above quote a bit out of context, I can't help but quote from an interesting book on HUAC: THE COMMITTEE, by Walter  Goodman. In a chapter entitled: DICKSTEIN'S  MONSTER, the author says " In the ranks  of those public man, from Pyrrhus forward, who have  striven and striven and at last succeeded, only to have their triumph  turn shortly to gall, a place must be set  aside for Samuel Dickstein." His goal was to organize a committee to investigate subverse  activities. He was a Congressman. He succeeded and then spent the rest of his life regretting it. You see, he instigated the drive to create a House Committee on Un-American Activities. He was striving to investigate Bundists in America who were fomenting anti-Semitism. In the end, after years of much effort and a lot of log rolling with other Congressmen, he got his way. He got the Committee approve and started---but, to the coalition which voted into existence, "Martin Dies was a David come to judgement on the New Deal." (Goodman, page 19)John Rankin (D-Miss) wouldn't support the creation until he was assured that it would be headed by Matin Des of Texas, "and not by the Jew Rankin." (Goodman, 19). You see, Dickstein was the son of a Rabbi, an immigrant from Russia--an alien. God forbid an alien's son, a  Jew, head such a committee....So they named Martin Dies, an anti-immigration Congressman who wanted all the aliens sent back home because they were instrumental in causing the Depression. So there you have it, The Committee, the brain child of a Congressman dedicated to stamping out Fascism in America, got his Committee, but it was turned over to a Congressman who distrusted Immigrants and Jews---and who immediately began to investigate the New Deal and Communism. Facism and the Bunds were forgottten, discarted into the political trashcan.What a Nation!!!!
Maury Maverick (D-Texas) then made his famous reply to Congressman Patricks question inquiring as to what  is un-Americanism: "Un-American!!Un-American is simply something that somebody else does not agree to"

Ironic that the son of  a Jewish Rabi would be the instigator of a such a Committee. He regretted until the day he died.

One of the many reasons Oppenheimer was resented and held suspect was that he was Jewish. Anti Semitism was an element in great Red Scare of the Fifties. We need to keep that in mind. Read PROMETHIUS, page 539.
Logged
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1958 on: February 19, 2008, 08:34:37 PM »

I'm too lazy to go look up one of the several pages in the book, but Mark Kurlansky, in "A Chosen Few" says more than once that Jews and Communist were often considered one and the same in Eastern Europe after WWII. Kurlansky suggests that the reason was that communism suppressed anti-semitism.

Logged
Bob
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 671


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1959 on: February 19, 2008, 08:55:12 PM »

Quote
Kurlansky suggests that the reason (Jews and Communists were considered as one after the war) was that communism suppressed anti-semitism


Kurlanski's filled with donkey do...he ought to go back to school.

Quite frankly he should stick with Cod and Oysters...
Logged
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1960 on: February 19, 2008, 09:00:31 PM »

Over the years I have come across quite a few disputes as to the merits of dropping the bomb, or, as it was called by Opp and his crew, the ''gadget''. In my early childhood we were taught this was the best way to end the war as there had been no end in sight to it.  Later in the late 60s we were taught that the end of the war was near and that dropping the bomb was unnecessary.

Bird and Sherwin suggest that dropping it was a sort of warning by HST to Stalin. Perhaps a deterrent to future expansionist aggression on the latter's part. Whatever the actual case (and it will have to be settled by professional historians - or maybe we can read + discuss a future book on the topic), the Los Alamos crew felt great remorse over the ''gadget's'' impact.  ''We're all sons-of-bitches'' whose work decimated a great many ''poor little people''.  Opp felt such remorse that ''I have blood on my hands''.

Had I been there, I would have reminded Opp that war is hell and that he was only doing his duty --- as dirty as it was.

Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1961 on: February 19, 2008, 09:01:33 PM »

I'm glad we're not discussing Kurlansky. Wink
Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1962 on: February 19, 2008, 09:10:52 PM »

Than,

I'm not sure that those who made the bomb can be easily excused as "doing their duty". Was their "duty" any different than the "duty" of the Japanese suicide bombers? How was the behavior of "the little people" of Japan more or less deserving of a death sentence than "the little people" of America who cheered when the bomb was exploded? The loss of innocent lives needs to be eliminated as an objective, or even "collateral damage" of wars between governments. It is telling that the one who started the problem, the Emperor of Japan, was not one whose clothes and skin were burned off preceding months of agony before death.

As for Kurlansky, I like his writing rather much. I get the impression he tells the history from the viewpoint of "the little people" rather than the movers and shakers who tend to consume many history writers.


Logged
thanatopsy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501



View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1963 on: February 19, 2008, 09:20:13 PM »

History shows that people in Dresden were also caught off guard and suffered horrendous consequences as a result of allied bombings. None of that should be swept aside - ever.

War is hell and damned be the SOB's who foment and profit from it.
Logged

''Love much & be forgiven''

- - - Margaret Fuller
Dzimas
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 4500


I thought you said your name was Nobody.


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1964 on: February 19, 2008, 11:13:37 PM »

Quote
''We're all sons-of-bitches'' whose work decimated a great many ''poor little people''.


Yes, than, but in the beginning they all were genuinely excited by what they were working on.  Oppenheimer felt he, and by extenstion Los Alamos, was truly helping to defeat fascism by creating something that he thought would end the war once and for all.  No mention of it being a deterrent in the beginning.  Opp and Teller callously talked about exterminating scores of Germans by using Strotium-90 as rat poison.  I think this is what war does to you, it totally distorts your perspective, and I think Opp had distorted visions about the impact of the bomb until he saw what it could do with his own eyes.  Then he began to change his tune, much like the Molotov-Ribbentroff Pact shook his vision of the benign Soviet Union.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 129 130 [131] 132 133 ... 165
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!