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Author Topic: American History  (Read 29473 times)
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #225 on: May 22, 2007, 09:23:56 PM »

Scalps!!

Previously I have heard or read that taking scalps was not practiced among Native Americans except for Hurons up in the North country. Rountree wrote that taking such prizes in order to send a message to invaders "teach{ing} them their place in the world ... {showing} ostentation as of a great triumph"  [p 119] did indeed happen.

I'm sure it left quite an impression.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #226 on: May 23, 2007, 08:04:53 AM »

Probably more about scalping than anyone needs to know:

http://www.dickshovel.com/scalp.html
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TrojanHorse
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« Reply #227 on: May 23, 2007, 11:44:20 AM »

Who has authority to start new topics?
I would assume anybody could start a new topic....just fire away. It's a question, though, who will follow it given that a discussion is in progress. However, as you can see we sometimes divert from a discussion, get sidetracked--and that's OK also.


Actually I meant to break down American History into more than one formal subject/topic.  Not quite noticing that it already was one "under" books...   I'll be ok...
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #228 on: May 23, 2007, 06:43:20 PM »

Probably more about scalping than anyone needs to know:

http://www.dickshovel.com/scalp.html

Actually, it's quite illuminating.

Thanks.
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #229 on: May 24, 2007, 04:23:26 PM »

Pocahontas' conversion ---

I cannot quite make up my mind as to whether she was forced to convert or did she do so voluntarily, though I lean to the latter possibility.

We were told several times that "she was not a princess" {p 105} and was not a celebrity in her time. Despite her youth, she displayed ambition and made public appearances do not square with the accepted notions of what girls of her age and time did back then.

Rev Thomas Dale allegedly  "laboured a long time to ground in her" a thirst for Christianity. {p 159} But how reliable is this account?  Could such an allegation have been made to gain favor with the Crown? Or was she genuinely that ambitious? Eventually, she was "treated as the daughter of a VIP" {p 162} which gave her advantages in staying among the invaders.  Lastly, John Rolfe may have had an influence as well and this could well have fed her interest and fueled her ambitions to venture East to Christian England.

Based on these factors, it would appear to me that Pocahontas' conversion was volitional.
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Bob
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« Reply #230 on: May 24, 2007, 09:18:12 PM »

I disagree that she was not a celebrity....The sole reason she was bought to London, along with the others , was to raise money. Jamestown was a business scheme and her trip was a part of the hype. She was put on display, introduced to the royal family and was the "bee's knees" all the while. In my view  she was then forgotten and london got on with other things. She was "lost" to history for a long while then revived and then became the legend she is today.

I remember from my other readings that Pocahontas was genuinely in love with John Rolfe and that, as with others in her nation, she was amenable to Christianity. Don't forget many Powhatans accepted Christianity as a PART of their belief system. They weren't monotheistic--other belief systems were readily absorbed into their spiritual world. Of course, the strict Anglican believers thought all Indians who converted really renounced their other deities--evidence is to the contrary---many kept their beliefs and ADDED Christianity to them.

Keep in mind also there weren't very many ministers in Jamestown at the time.
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Bob
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« Reply #231 on: May 24, 2007, 09:24:58 PM »

Who married Pocahontas to John Rolfe?
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Dzimas
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« Reply #232 on: May 25, 2007, 06:08:06 AM »

Not to make light of the excellent discussion, but Neil Young's Maron Brando, Pocahantas and Me comes to mind. 
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weezo
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« Reply #233 on: May 25, 2007, 06:17:25 AM »

Bob,

They were married by the same man who had been with John Rolfe when he was stranded on Bermuda with the company that spent a year there. It may have been Rev Purchas, but I would have to look it up. It was the same man who baptisted John Rolfe's first child by his first child. John Rolfe buried both his first wife and child on Bermuda, before coming to Virginia as a widower.
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #234 on: May 25, 2007, 08:03:01 AM »

First, a Happy Friday one and all.


A thought occurred to me re the far ranging peoples listed in Rountree: while the invaders ranged far from the old country to the new, we are told of Nanticokes living there (I usually think of them as being from Ontario), Iroquois (whom I regard as New York-Ontario folks except for certain Tuscarora), Siouans (whom I normally regard as upper midwesterners), and other far ranging 'tribes'.

Folks sure can get the itchy feet syndrome - the will range far and wide in search of greener pastures and favorable hunting grounds. Hopefully, for the better!
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #235 on: May 25, 2007, 04:53:43 PM »

 Smiley Thanx nyt!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Modern Americans' 'knowledge' of Pocahontas is based upon what could well be called a movement to canonize her that began in the 1830s."

p 238

As we discussed in previous books in the NYT forum, the USA had been on the verge of division in the 1830s. No wonder why southerners tried to project themselves as the proper Founders of the Union and of all good things American. ''The lady has been mythologized out of all recognition'' is a very telling and accurate description of one whose historical significance is largely inconsequential. So now (at last!) we know why Pocahontas has been so incredibly pedestaled.

But, let's face it -- it's an interesting story!
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« Reply #236 on: May 25, 2007, 09:19:05 PM »

Not to make light of the excellent discussion, but Neil Young's Maron Brando, Pocahantas and Me comes to mind. 
[/quote

How did I miss this,dzimas? I love Neil Young but I guess I didn't keep up? By the way, some fellow by the name (you'll dig this)Hans Christian Brando
showed up in a blog at the nytimes. com just two or three days ago.

Thanks for "dickshovel" re:thanotopsy on Ontario, I guess that I knew this but your material was a reminder of the persecution of  Iroquois in the Lake Erie area, the same stuff that went down in the Dakotas; when I first knew about the resistance that is taking place, it recalled to mind a dream -- I had, while sleeping in Ontario, of an uprising among the Iroquois taking back the territory. I mean, if the Quebecois could scare the heck out of people and cause enough mayhem, why not the Iroquois?  There are things happening to people there that you would not believe. Meanwhile, that letter from Daschle and the follow up explanation to the guy out in the Southwest of why his cousin's(?) hands were severed and shipped for printing and testing all too closely resembles the customs that are covered in "dickshovel" about the ritual beliefs connected to scalping --in one part of which they acutely describe this severing of the hands and feet.  When I read it in the Daschle material, I stopped and said to myself --are these guys BIA? What's the point otherwise of white men mirroring back ancient practices to Native Americans which can then be written off as "coincidence"?
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Bob
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« Reply #237 on: May 26, 2007, 12:53:01 AM »

Thanatopsy:

I was born in West Nanticoke, PA. I live about 5 miles from there now. West Nanticoke is across the river from Nanticoke. Together they were named after the Nanticoke Indians. The Nanticokes were a tribe out of the Delawares. They were Algonquin speakers. Algonquin relates to language, not to tribe or nation. Siouan is a language group, not a tribe or nation. Now, a little history to verify your thoughts. The Nanticoke originally lived in the Maryland, Delaware area Their area ran through the center of what became both states, in an East-West configuration on the Eastern Shore of Chesapeake Bay. Their original name was Nentego or Nantico meaning Tidewater People. While in the area they allied themselves with the Powhatans.The tribe was nomadic and was "forced" out of its area because of the encroaching English Settlers. The Nanticokes eventually applied to the locals here to "settle" for a while on areas we call "The Flats,"  an area bordering the Susquehanna River --about 1,000 feet or so from where I was born and just across the highway from the Coal Breaker which was just down from my house. There they remained (under a lease/rental type arrangement with the Shawanese--the locals) until they continued their trek north to what is now New York State. There they were the guests of the Iroquois Nation and helped defend the Southern section of their  territory.

The Nanticokes, or pieces of them, did subsequently end up in Ontario where there is another city called Nanticoke.
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Bob
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« Reply #238 on: May 26, 2007, 01:22:13 AM »

The Reverend Alexander Whitaker tutored Pocahontas in Christianity and Baptized her,choosing her name and then  performed the marriage ceremony according to most sources I read. Whitaker  resided in Henrico, not Jamestown, and it was there that Pocahontas stayed. Thomas Dale, Deputy Governor of the Colony, was governor of Henrico. Sir Thomas Gates was in Jamestown and was Governor of the Colony

In Price's LOVE AND HATE IN JAMESTOWN, he mentions the ceremony "could equally have been Richard Buck, Rolfe's compatriot  on Bermuda, or Alexander Whitaker, Pocahotas's teacher."  (Price, page 158)
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weezo
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« Reply #239 on: May 26, 2007, 06:59:46 AM »

Bob,

Small correction. The city where Pocahontas lived was called Henricus, not Henrico, which is the modern name of the county that surrounds Richmond morth of the James.

Henricus is south of the James, and according to the tv did an excellent job of celebrating the quadricentenial last weekend, with the arrival of the Godspeed from Jamestown. This weekend, the Godspeed is in Richmond, and all sorts of festivities are in the works there.

Henricus is now a park that contains the historic city - it is not a modern city. Henricus is actually in Chesterfield County, which surrounds Richmond on the south side of the James. Henricus is near the city of Hopewell, which is the side of the original iron works. I think they have done some excavation there to find the original furnace.
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