Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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Author Topic: American History  (Read 29519 times)
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Furphy
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« Reply #2160 on: March 20, 2008, 11:03:52 PM »

H. Adams mentions Philip Freneau, the poet. I believe this is the same man who was hired by Jefferson to write against John Adams at the time that they were members of the same administration.

I wouldn't have anything against open and honest political warfare but it seems that Jefferson was unwilling to soil his own hands with the dirt he was perfectly willing to throw at Adams.

And, yes, he was dredfully selfish in his treatment of his slaves.
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Furphy
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« Reply #2161 on: March 20, 2008, 11:05:26 PM »

I should never post in a hurry.

I'm off to the church at the corneer to feed God's cats as I call the starvlings in the neighborhood who will be waiting for me and their dinner.
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caclark
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« Reply #2162 on: March 21, 2008, 03:10:05 PM »

"I dislike Jefferson because he was a sneaky backstabber when he was John Adams' vice-president."

They kissed and made up. All’s well that ends well, I guess. Never heard if they got back to groping and fondling each other’s fanny.

I don't have HBO any more so I haven't been able to see the mini-series.
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weezo
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« Reply #2163 on: March 21, 2008, 06:32:21 PM »

Clark,

They didn't make up until they were both in old age. They never saw each other in person during the conciliatory and admiring each other that took place in letters. So, they couldn't get back to fondling and groping!
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caclark
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« Reply #2164 on: March 21, 2008, 07:05:50 PM »

"They never saw each other in person during the conciliatory and admiring each other that took place in letters. So, they couldn't get back to fondling and groping!"

Aw, shucks. Now you've gone and ruined it for me.
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weezo
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« Reply #2165 on: March 21, 2008, 07:23:17 PM »

Oops, Sorry! My bad!

But you could look into James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. They were neighbors and visited each other regularly - just a carriage ride down Monticello and up another hill/mountain.
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Bob
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« Reply #2166 on: March 21, 2008, 08:29:53 PM »

Abigail Adams on Slavery:

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There has been in Town a conspiracy of the Negroes. At present it is kept pretty private and was discoverd by one who endeavourd to diswaid them from it-he being threatned with his life, applied to justice Quincy for protection. They conducted in this way-got an Irishman to draw up a petition letting to the Govener telling him they would fight for him provided he would arm them and engage to liberate them if he conquerd, and it is said that he attended so much to it as to consult Pircy upon it, and one [lieut.?] Small has been very buisy and active. There is but little said, and what Steps they will take in consequence of it I know not. I wish most sincerely there was not a Slave in the province. It allways appeard a most iniquitious Scheme to me-fight ourselfs for what we are daily robbing and plundering from those who have as good a right to freedom as we have. You know my mind upon this Subject.

Abigail to John  22 September 1774.

Like Jefferson, Adams could be a hypocrite. Although he agreed with Abigail's views he voted against abolishing slavery in his state.

Ben Franklin had slaves. Both Franklin ands Adams were on the drafting committee for the Declaration. Doesn't that sort of put them in the same class as Jefferson---i.e., saying one thing and doing another...
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Bob
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« Reply #2167 on: March 21, 2008, 08:41:49 PM »

Speaking of Franklin, I was thinking we might statrt the Isaacson book on April 1....
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Bob
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« Reply #2168 on: March 21, 2008, 08:45:46 PM »

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I'm going to Washington DC the weekend of the 29th to stand where Lincoln stood and see where Henry Adams lived.

Adams lived next to John Hay. Their houses were destroyed in the twenties, but the good news is that iot's now the site of the Hay Adams Hotel---one of the finer hotels in D.C.   Great Sunday Buffet---I've had the buffet, but the room charges are a bit too steep for me...
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madupont
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« Reply #2169 on: March 22, 2008, 01:29:48 AM »

Abigail Adams on Slavery:

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There has been in Town a conspiracy of the Negroes. At present it is kept pretty private and was discoverd by one who endeavourd to diswaid them from it-he being threatned with his life, applied to justice Quincy for protection. They conducted in this way-got an Irishman to draw up a petition letting to the Govener telling him they would fight for him provided he would arm them and engage to liberate them if he conquerd, and it is said that he attended so much to it as to consult Pircy upon it, and one [lieut.?] Small has been very buisy and active. There is but little said, and what Steps they will take in consequence of it I know not. I wish most sincerely there was not a Slave in the province. It allways appeard a most iniquitious Scheme to me-fight ourselfs for what we are daily robbing and plundering from those who have as good a right to freedom as we have. You know my mind upon this Subject.

Abigail to John  22 September 1774.

Like Jefferson, Adams could be a hypocrite. Although he agreed with Abigail's views he voted against abolishing slavery in his state.

Ben Franklin had slaves. Both Franklin ands Adams were on the drafting committee for the Declaration. Doesn't that sort of put them in the same class as Jefferson---i.e., saying one thing and doing another...


I did get a chance to see the program tonight, I guess it is the first in the series,and unfortunately at some point I snoozed which was not the fault of the  production, but there will be a chance to review tomorrow and they keep in on demand HBO.

What I wanted to say however was that there is a scene with John Adams rather between Thomas Jefferson and Ben Frankin who is played by Tom Wilkinson, the British actor who has become utterly popular with American moviegoers for his remarkable quirks and dignified but unpretentious bearing. He is a shockingly good Benjamin Franklin in a simple but elegant gray suit with same woolen vest, such as a Quaker would wear then and perhaps might be envious of now.  He is convincingly an English American whom you could just bet would be a reliable neighbor. 

While he is busily testing out the spin on a chair that Thomas Jefferson invented, done partially for the purpose of distraction so as not to seem to be paying too close attention to the very personal discussion between Adams and Jefferson which had begun with Jefferson praising Adams on his passionate oratory, and Adams is an exceedingly humble man who instead wonders why Jefferson does seldom address the Congress, considering how elegantly he writes.   Jefferson does not feel that he does.  After all, what the three men have been doing, before the obvious chair spinning, is corrrecting the wording of the declaration, when the situation pertinent to your comment comes up.

Jefferson, speaks of that factor for which Adams oft criticizes him, by pointing out that even Franklin has accepted slavery in Philadelphia, but Franklin then in turn makes a very sophisticated point (which he usually does) and this one is splendid. That if they were to disallow the importation of any other subjects than native Americans, those slaves already here would increase in value to such an amount  that few affording them would, of course, cause an extensive work stoppage; implying the laziness of the American, or the desire for wealth by any means beyond one's own strength is the situation that really prevails.

Franklin views this as the true nature of human beings, and while it stops the three-way conversation cold, it instantly put me in mind that this is what we are witnessing today, the kind of stalemate in everything today done by Congress, the inability to end a war because it is valuable to the perpetrators, the conduct of our elections both in higher expenses than ever to carry out a campaign as well as the hypocrisy in the attitudes presented so baldly like children who lie boldly when their mother discovers the broken cookie jar which she stashed on the top shelf is now on the kitchen floor.
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madupont
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« Reply #2170 on: March 22, 2008, 01:33:30 AM »

How has the series been?

Years ago, I watched the Adams Chronicles on PBS and that was a splendid series.

Last night was interesting but a little cartoonish at times.



I noticed that too, with the introduction of the characters at the beginning. It was as if, since they had that little family of children on hand, as a production decision about from where to start the drama; that it was almost a way of showing/teaching history for a child's level, although not before long it had gone on to things that might be way over their heads, unless it was used as "visual aids" once were and then there was an actual discussion with an adult teacher to avoid any mistaken ideas about the subject matter and what was actually transpiring.

It is rather better as teaching for adults by obvious parallels to our current positions.  Which is why I watched it, last night. I was standing at the window, having left the tv to tune itself to my attention, while wiping the window panes during the twilight, drawing the blinds, lighting a lamp, when something in a line got my attention and I realized that I should not be missing the visuals. In other words, it is a well-balanced production. But,can you believe that they shot this in Hungary?
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Bob
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« Reply #2171 on: March 22, 2008, 12:51:05 PM »

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...if they were to disallow the importation of any other subjects than native Americans, those slaves already here would increase in value to such an amount  that few affording them would, of course, cause an extensive work stoppage; implying the laziness of the American, or the desire for wealth by any means beyond one's own strength is the situation that really prevails.
I'm confused: what does he mean "few affording them would, of course, cause an extensive work stoppage?"  Who would cause an extensive work stoppage, the slaves, workers in general or the owners of the slages?
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madupont
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« Reply #2172 on: March 22, 2008, 09:29:54 PM »

Bob, compare it to the rising value of oil. 

Although I do know what you are going to say.  Slave-breeding became of vastly more importance, when colonialists entertained the notion that perhaps they should stop importing slaves. Not dealing with slave-traders, when emphasis is  placed on Freedom while asserting Independence, part of that was not trading with foreign powers who still dealt in slaves.

Although in the early 19th.century, the English in coastal villages would  resent the impressment of seamen and extrapolate from that to support of Abolition( I can not  on the spur of the moment recall the writer nor the title of his book who wrote on this subject and had a solid turnout at
the Philadelphia Free Library, in the last few years because of course it followed upon the incidents taking place at the time of the 2000 and 2004 elections when intimidation of Black voters tooks place and the "caging" of the votes among the elderly, so activists turned out for his book discussion and to ask questions. Adam -- starts with an H.?), the French had not given up and faced a rebellion at the turn of the 18th.century into the 19th. within the Caribbean.   I have no recall of the Dutch record.

The value of the slave as man-power would increase for a short period so that they might not be within the means of all classes, but it is also likely to be Franklin's particular wit as he was apparently fond of being outlandish when directly faced  with questions of why he stood where he did on the issue.  To his mind there would be some temporary set back in levels of production, but he knows full well things would resume as ever.  It will be interesting to me how this interaction goes with  these three particular characters, in the unfolding series; although, there is such a large cast of roles in American leadership for the era that it is hard to say how balanced the production will be as it amounts to  about six episodes as far as I've noticed.         
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Shirley Marcus1
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« Reply #2173 on: March 22, 2008, 09:54:30 PM »

Speaking of Franklin, I was thinking we might statrt the Isaacson book on April 1....

I bought my book today.
I do not have HBO.
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weezo
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« Reply #2174 on: March 22, 2008, 10:32:40 PM »

Shirley,

I'm in the same boat as far a HBO is concerned, but hubby is not a fan of mini-series, especially if they are documentary in style ...
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