Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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Author Topic: American History  (Read 29345 times)
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #2205 on: March 27, 2008, 08:41:17 AM »

~~ callous conclusion ~~

You missed the part about the utterly neglectful attitude Kitty had towards her son. While she showered her daughter with much affection in her youth, she was abusive towards her son.  Opp failed to compensate or to shield him from those abuses.  This is why the son was so indifferent towards both parents later in life. The authors made this quite clear but you missed it.

I grew up an abused child and my experience was similar to their son.  As an adult, my feelings towards my parent was almost exactly like his.  Had you gone through such a painful experience you would readily understand his motivation.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #2206 on: March 27, 2008, 09:33:58 AM »

So, you base your conclusions on Oppenheimer on your personal experience?  The authors note that Opp did not stand up to Kitty, probably for good reason, because he knew her drinking was to a large degree in response to his trysts and his time away from the house.  They also noted that Kitty never bonded with Peter, but then Opp often compensated for this.  I don't remember the authors mentioning that Peter disassociated himself from his parents, but rather noted that he apparently took it pretty hard when they went to Paris without him, leaving him at a boarding school.  Toni was still quite young.  The authors pretty much left the story of Peter there, noting in an epilogue that Peter chose to live an anonymous life, raising a family of his own in the Southwest while working as a carpenter.  One can draw one's own conclusions, as you obviously did.

Like so many book readings, this one failed to take off.  I suppose because we didn't have the critical mass of readers and contributors necessary to keep the discussion moving.  Too bad, because there was so much to discuss in this book.  The thrust of the book was mostly the role Oppenheimer played in shaping the nuclear age and how he came to be a martyr for the Atomic Bomb. The authors note how he was portrayed in stage plays, documentaries and movies, using the hearings as a dramatic prop for the growing anxiety surrounding the nuclear arms race between the Soviet Union and the US.  Oppenheimer tended to downplay his role in shaping the bomb, frustrated and even angry at how he was portrayed.  He felt the theatrical productions failed to present his profound sense of ambivalence on the subject.  He even refused to be interviewed for a biography, seeming to want to leave the past to the past and retreat from what had been a very public life.  When asked what he thought about Robert Kennedy's call for a nuclear non-proliferation treaty, he said it was coming 20 years too late.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 09:54:02 AM by Dzimas » Logged
Lhoffman
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« Reply #2207 on: March 27, 2008, 11:28:08 AM »

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Opp may not have been the best father, but he was caring and gave what attention he could to his children.


Quote
The authors note that Opp did not stand up to Kitty, probably for good reason, because he knew her drinking was to a large degree in response to his trysts and his time away from the house.


Seems to me that he would have had quite a bit more time and attention to give to his kids had he foregone his trysts.
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weezo
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« Reply #2208 on: March 27, 2008, 02:04:57 PM »

Laurie,

Life without the trysts? That would have upset his priorities in life!

I had a chuckle when I was reading Einstein, and Isaacson's belief that Einstein's first wife "poisoned" his sons towards him, as he left home and hung out for years at a time elsewhere, and sometimes missed the opportunities to visit his son's to spend time with Elsa, who eventually became his second wife ....
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #2209 on: March 27, 2008, 04:53:26 PM »



"Seems to me that he would have had quite a bit more time and attention to give to his kids had he foregone his trysts."


That should settle the argument.   Wink
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nytempsperdu
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« Reply #2210 on: March 27, 2008, 09:27:01 PM »

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Ask yourself a few questions. Were the industrial workers beaten when it suited their supervistors and foremen? Did a supervisor or foreman ever send out dogs to retrieve a worker who quit? Did The Company ever sell a laborer's children so they were never seen again?

I'll gladly ask myself such "ever" questions and hope you, in turn, will at least ask yourself if it's even remotely possible that there were "ever" slaveowners who did not mistreat their slaves.  I'd hesitate to say it's not all black and white, but...
 
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Furphy
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« Reply #2211 on: March 28, 2008, 12:42:07 AM »

I had intended to leave Mr. Adams' history behind and take a novel with me to Washington. But damned if he isn't just as good as a novel any day.

His history is as broad as it is long. We had Toussaint Louverture and Napoleon Bonaparte sharing the stage with Jefferson today and it was a damned good show all around.
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weezo
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« Reply #2212 on: March 28, 2008, 10:16:22 AM »

NY Temps,

Yes, there were slaveowners who treated their slaves well. No, that doesn't make them a saint - they just did what they were supposed to do, nothing out of the ordinary.

Now, is there hard evidence that these beatings happened, or were they a figure of speech?


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caclark
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« Reply #2213 on: March 28, 2008, 11:25:30 AM »

A slave owner treating his slaves well? Why, it's the least he should do, isn't it?
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madupont
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« Reply #2214 on: March 28, 2008, 12:08:00 PM »

Furphy
I had intended to leave Mr. Adams' history behind and take a novel with me to Washington. But damned if he isn't just as good as a novel any day.

His history is as broad as it is long. We had Toussaint Louverture and Napoleon Bonaparte sharing the stage with Jefferson today and it was a damned good show all around.


http://www.hbo.com/films/johnadams/
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madupont
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« Reply #2215 on: March 28, 2008, 02:47:22 PM »

weezo, 

This arrived via e-mail.  Former young lady as e-mail contact possibly was not there to respond.
                                   JOBS WITH JUSTICE
"Today marks the beginning of the National Student Labor Week of Action!

Check out a few highlights of the many exciting actions happening this week in the box to the right ---> 

In the tomato fields of south Florida, modern-day slavery still thrives.  As part of the week of action, students across the country are demanding that Burger King and food industry leaders work with the Coalition of Immokalee Workers (CIW) to improve the wages and conditions for the workers who pick tomatoes and join an industry-wide effort to eliminate human rights abuses from Florida’s fields.



Farm workers who pick tomatoes for the fast-food industry are among this country’s most exploited workers. They sometimes are held against their will, beaten and forced to work for little or no pay. Thousands more are trying to survive with poverty wages, no overtime pay, no sick leave and no freedom to join unions for a better life.

Click here to sign the National Petition to End Sweatshops & Slavery in the Fields.

Sign this petition :

WHEREAS, there is an ongoing human rights crisis in Florida's fields, including:
poverty wages, rooted in an antiquated piece-rate pay system that hasn't changed significantly in nearly 30 years;

long hours without overtime pay when work is available, unemployment and transience when it is not;

physical abuse and wage fraud by crewleaders, supervisors, and growers;

damage to body and soul from back-breaking labor, with no employment benefits such as sick days, paid leave, health insurance, or pensions;

retaliation against workers who protest or organize to alleviate these inhuman conditions;

and, most shamefully, modern-day slavery, with six successful federal prosecutions of farm labor operations for servitude in Florida over the past decade, and a seventh just initiated, involving well over 1,000 workers and more than a dozen farm employers;
WHEREAS, by leveraging their high-volume purchasing power to extract the lowest prices possible, Burger King and other food industry leaders profit from and play an active role in creating the miserable conditions in Florida?s fields;

WHEREAS, Burger King and other food industry leaders have not only refused to join Yum! Brands and McDonald's in working with the Coalition of Immokalee Workers (CIW) to improve farm labor conditions, but have actually sought to reverse gains made by workers in agreements with those corporations;

WHEREAS, private equity firms including Goldman Sachs, Texas Pacific Group, Bain Capital and others, which are principal shareholders in Burger King and other food industry leaders, have made significant investments in the restaurant industry over the past decade, and have ignored calls by farmworkers and consumers for farm labor reform, while continuing to draw billions of dollars in private profits from their investments;
THEREFORE, I add my name and voice to those of countless consumers calling upon Burger King and other food industry leaders to immediately join with the CIW in efforts to end exploitation in the fields and modern-day slavery in the 21st century. I am also prepared to stop patronizing Burger King now, and other food industry leaders in the future, should they fail to do so.

Specifically, I call on Burger King and other food industry leaders to:


Pay a penny more per pound for tomatoes and ensure that the increase is passed on to tomato pickers in the form of increased wages; and

Work with the CIW to establish and enforce a human rights-based code of conduct, including zero tolerance for forced labor, to ensure fair and safe working conditions.


 
 NATIONAL STUDENT LABOR WEEK OF ACTION!
SIGN THE PETITION to End Sweatshops & Slavery in the Fields
FIND AN ACTION near you
LEARN MORE about the week of action
HIGHLIGHTS OF ACTIONS AROUND THE COUNTRY:

Over at the University of Central Florida folks are having a weeklong series of events titled “40 Years in the Wilderness, 1968-2008: How Far Have We Come?” Students are coming together for a weeklong series of events and actions which will range from events on the prison system, segregation in education, immigration, and gentrification to recognizing Florida’s farm workers and UCF’s custodial and maintenance workers.

Over at UC Santa Cruz,  Students are participating in a weeklong series of actions and events including an action at a local Burger King, an Affirmative Action Rally/Speak-out, and setting up a table to recruit for a major action they are participating in with other campuses and AFSCME who are fighting for a just contract for all UC workers.

Just around the corner and off a great national action, MEChA is holding it down in Sacramento! MEChA de Woodland Community College, MEChA Sac City, MEChA de Sacramento State University have been for months helping in solidarity with other groups (Including Labor Council for Latin American Advancement, SEIU, ILWU; among others) plan the Cesar Chavez March in downtown Sacramento. This years theme "Workers Organizing to end Corporate Greed!" goes hand in hand with the celebration of Cesar Chavez vision and Legacy. Students, workers, community, and faith leaders will all unite in North Sacramento with Approximately 5,000 people to march throughout the streets of Sacramento and the capitol to show all the unity of the UNION!!! They will also pass though the Blue Diamond factory and show support for the workers that are struggling to Unionize, and so much more but we cant tell you everything just yet?   

In Philadelphia the POWR campaign, a campaign led by security officers and a project of Philly JwJ and Philly SLAP, are having a weeklong series of events and actions attempting to recapture the legacy of Dr. King by saying “Its more than just a dream, it’s a call to action!” Their “Voices of the Rebels” events will be highlighting the lives and work of Dr. King and Cesar Chavez, and end with a giant commemorations service and march with today’s workers, like those in Memphis, proclaiming “I AM A huMAN!”

And this is just a small glimpse of what’s to come! The US Student Association, United Students against Sweatshops, Young Democratic Socialists, Student Farmworker Alliance, National MEChA, Student Action with Farmworkers, Young Communist League, and other local Student Labor Action Project (SLAP)’s  are planning events and actions just like these in over 100 cities in the coming week!

Stay Updated by going to our site www.studentlabor.org or visiting our blog" at studentlabor.blogspot.com
 
 May I suggest that you contact them directly at: [email protected]

Since they put me back on the list, I wrote back for archival material on the Smithfield,Tar-Heel plant, North Carolina incident in regard to Martin Luther King Day, as a day off from work in their horrendous conditions on extended or double shifts, after which the workers were beaten back to work and the local NAACP church members held a silent vigil protest in the parking lot outside the Tar-Heel Plant premises.

I  find it amazing how this exists in parallel to what doesn't get discussed in the Campaign Forum  where so-called representative brokerage business interests disclaim that they used racist invective in their postings while being very proud of it and by claiming that they are just "quoting" .                           
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madupont
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« Reply #2216 on: March 28, 2008, 03:00:33 PM »

Another thing that stands out in the cases mentioned in the literature that I just posted: how many of these  cited examples are taking place in Florida whose primary vote some believe should be reinstated at Hillary Clinton's request.

When do these particular voters get to vote? Do they have to use the absentee ballot because they don't get time off from work to go to the polls?

Who are these people? Since obviously they are not the supposedly rich Republican Hispanics who deserted Cuba and prefer to live nearby in Florida.

I asked for a break-down on this quite a few months ago from one of the advisors in the office at JWJ; were the people at Tar-Heel,N.C. who were not indigenous African-Americans here in the US, designated as Latin or Hispanic in that case emigrees to the area or their descendents coming up coast from Florida? Or, are they native-born Latins doing migrant work. Without a reply, I went off the mailing list. I certainly tried to make contact with the Edwards campaign, for some liaison to JWJ. But from what they are mailing now, I can see why he steered clear while campaigning.
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madupont
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« Reply #2217 on: March 28, 2008, 03:11:52 PM »

weezo,

I looked up the Imokalee workers and there is a link to their coalition at the bottom of this description from the amazingly continually contested resources of wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_Immokalee_Workers
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weezo
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« Reply #2218 on: March 28, 2008, 03:38:25 PM »

Maddie,

The "union" or coalition, seems to be going about the problem bass-ackwards. Perhaps they could act as employee agents, and provide the workers to the tomato growers. Of course, it would take some coordination so that the employees quit working for the abusive agents and work for the union instead. And, do bear in mind that as long as the employees are unemployed when the tomato picking season is not in, it is hard to establish that they are working under slave conditions. They can leave when they please unless they have signed a contract.
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madupont
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« Reply #2219 on: March 28, 2008, 04:41:57 PM »

Yes, quite, but you don't make a contract with a bad employer before you are unionized, not when you are a Mayan Indian, or a Haitian French-patois speaking black, since you need the job to live  where the work is to house and feed your family in an area with a standard of living like Florida which is all they know at that point.

Meanwhile Easter being over,keep in mind the Smithfield Ham producing workers are still getting the short end of the stick  when they get beaten about the head and shoulders, and where ever elsewhere by their white supervisors, foremen, of the management team.

Which was originally what we were talking about that conditions are the same. They are physical; right away that is inequitable to what other workers experience. Mostly, people here just pride themselves on not being like China to whom we do owe 3 trillion dollars which means many of us being vastly inferior to what the Han think of themselves may end up wondering what happened.
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