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Author Topic: American History  (Read 29422 times)
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weezo
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« Reply #2220 on: March 28, 2008, 05:32:57 PM »

Maddie,

I've read everything you've sent on the issue of these abused workers, and, I fail to see where there is a shred of evidence that physical abuse actually happens. No arrests made, no complaints made to police, no scars on display. Nothing we can point to and say, see, it happens!

If the Coalition makes itself an agency/union for these people and negotiate employment contract/s for them, that should be the end of the problem. It is then up to the employees to quite abusive jobs and hire on with the new agency. The new agency, the union, will have to compete with the other employment agencies to get fields to pick.

But, I am more concerned about the employers who are breaking the law. Who is overseeing them? Why aren't complaints from employees addressed? Are the government agencies lawfully required to investigate such illegal behavior, not doing their jobs?
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madupont
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« Reply #2221 on: March 28, 2008, 08:31:39 PM »

You might want to do some investigation, particularly in regard to--

"The John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 gave the president new powers over the national guard. This means that in a national emergency -- which the president now has enhanced powers to declare --he can send Michigan's militia to enforce a state of emergency that he has declared in Oregon, over the objections of the state's governor and its citizens."  Didn't this take place in the state where you relocated?

Anything else would be denial. It's not science fiction but it is now part of American History.

You ask,"Are the government agencies lawfully required to investigate such illegal behavior, not doing their jobs?"   Well, that's become their job, not to do it.
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weezo
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« Reply #2222 on: March 28, 2008, 10:20:45 PM »

Maddie,

Yes, dear, I know about the president's authority over the National Guard. My son is in it. I know that can happen, but I do not think it will be a problem, if the law is still even on the books by the end of Obama's first term. And, I don't see Obama as foolish enough to try to see if exercising that authority passes muster with the Supreme Court.

And, Maddie, I cannot discern from your note how the president's authority over the National Guard has anything to do with whether or not physical abuse was done to employees. Seems lots of folks are quoting each other saying so, but no one has seen a wound or a scar worth taking a photo of. Something is awry on this story. I'm skeptical. The words used in the "stories" are too laden with emotionally charged words to take them at face value.

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nytempsperdu
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« Reply #2223 on: March 28, 2008, 11:16:12 PM »

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Yes, there were slaveowners who treated their slaves well. No, that doesn't make them a saint - they just did what they were supposed to do, nothing out of the ordinary.

Whoa, where did "saint" come into it?  Not from me, that's for sure. I think there were and still are good and bad folks of every hue in all systems, the question being how to increase the one and decrease t'other. Legal, institutionalized slavery was/is certainly not to be condoned, but we should also recognize that de facto slavery exists, with the choice to simply leave an abusive, exploitive, law/rule breaking employer sometimes quite simply a practical impossibility.   

For some years I have been a contributor to Equality Now which works for human rights for women on several fronts, including combatting the international sex slave trade (connection to previous discussion about current parallels).  Since we're in the US History forum, I'll note that the organization some years ago pursued criminal charges against the operators of a New York "sex tours" company, through the NY Atty General, one Mr. Spitzer.
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weezo
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« Reply #2224 on: March 29, 2008, 06:26:57 AM »

NY,

I am not sure I am willing to accept the notion that there is still a "slave trade" going on. I am somewhat inclined to feel that the term "slave" is tossed about to mean anyone who is unhappy with their job for whatever reason. This tends to diminish the horrors that are part of true slavery, where one cannot leave their job for ANY reason.
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Bob
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« Reply #2225 on: March 29, 2008, 06:56:09 AM »

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ask yourself if it's even remotely possible that there were "ever" slaveowners who did not mistreat their slaves.

Since we are on the verge of discussing him, Benjamin Franklin (and his wife). And, I trust, many others in Phadelphia and other parts.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #2226 on: March 29, 2008, 12:33:55 PM »

Slaves, indentured servants, human trafficking, take your pick, but there are persons living and working in the US in circumstances very similarly to slavery, especially in the sex industry,

The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency estimates that 50,000 people are trafficked into or transited through the U.S.A. annually as sex slaves, domestics, garment, and agricultural slaves.

http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/USA.htm

Slavery still exists in many parts of the world, including North Africa.
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weezo
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« Reply #2227 on: March 29, 2008, 01:10:15 PM »

Dzimas,

Thanks for the link. At least that article put a name to an accusation of a beating, in that he witnessed it. What happened to him? I hope the photographer did not leave him there. I hope the person who spoke to Ricardo brought the matter to the attention of the authorities.

I can easily understand labor agencies who locate jobs and send workers. I can see that someone could be duped into believing that they owe someone and must "work off the debt". But I don't understand someone leaving that situation in existence without doing something to close it down.

Or is this like that last episode of Seinfeld?

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nytempsperdu
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« Reply #2228 on: March 29, 2008, 05:01:25 PM »

Thanks for finding and posting that link, dzimas.  Though the summary of the articles is painful to read even without pursuing the individual stories, it's a valuable resource which will be useful beyond this discussion.

Speaking of involuntary servitude, anyone plan to see the new movie "Stop-Loss"?  Wait, I'll take that question over to the movie forum.   
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Bob
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« Reply #2229 on: March 31, 2008, 04:36:17 PM »

Benjamin Franklin discussion begins tomorrow:

Here are some links which can supplement the book:

http://www.franklinpapers.org/franklin/

http://www.pbs.org/benfranklin/

http://www.time.com/time/2003/franklin/bffranklin.html

http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/franklin.htm
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madupont
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« Reply #2230 on: March 31, 2008, 10:04:21 PM »

Thanks for finding and posting that link, dzimas.  Though the summary of the articles is painful to read even without pursuing the individual stories, it's a valuable resource which will be useful beyond this discussion.

Speaking of involuntary servitude, anyone plan to see the new movie "Stop-Loss"?  Wait, I'll take that question over to the movie forum.   


Nope.   You can also go directly to www.imdb.com and enter the movie title. I've just finished reading a page of visitors opinions of the film; but could not read a second page. That was enough for me.
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #2231 on: March 31, 2008, 11:37:04 PM »

 Grin Aha!  Grin


I have found the ideal way to begin a discussion of Ben Franklin --- this intellectual discourse will open your mind, broaden your horizons, uplift your souls, and enliven your spirits.  Franklin's most insightful, most intellectual, most humourous, most enlightened, most elevating, and most brilliant writing.  One that forevermore shall stimulate great conversation, inspire great intellectual conferences, and inspire youth to the higher disciplines of life.

And here it is, that most ingenious writing of all time, Franklin's HOW TO FART PROUDLY!     


http://www.bffff.org/frtprd.html
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madupont
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« Reply #2232 on: April 01, 2008, 04:30:42 PM »

thanatopsy, that is exactly the outfit that Frankin is wearing when he goes to Paris until he  changes into something more comfortable while having his portrait sculpted by Houdin.  (oh, I meant to say, that's the currently running series on HBO; and that Franklin admits his costume was to entertain the French who were entertaining him.) I'm as far as Adams finally getting back to Massachusetts from his ambassadorship to meet his now grown adult children! Whom he could not recognize but had to assume they were there and might be familiar.  Paul Giamatti does this role very well, in all the shadings of a full portrayal of what makes up a man's life.
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weezo
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« Reply #2233 on: April 01, 2008, 06:25:19 PM »

Than,

That piece of Franklin's writing is a gem! I put a link to it on my Famous Americans page for Ben Franklin. It will be a wind of fresh air in an otherwise pedantic list of links.
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Bob
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« Reply #2234 on: April 01, 2008, 07:20:18 PM »

Of all the "founders" Franklin seems "the most accessible, the most democratic and the most folksy." This is how Gordon Wood opens his book on the great one.  I use him  to open the discussion because he brings this out and also points out that Franklin is probably the one we would most like to spend an evening with. Washington is too august and awesome, Jefferson too aristocratic and reserved, Adams, too cranky and idiosyncratic, Hamilton  too arrogant and Madison too shy and intellectual. Franklin is the one with the common touch, the only founder to start at the bottom of the ladder, the epitome of the self made man--a guy you can have a beer with and relax with after a hard days' work.(Wood,THE AMERICANIZATION OF  BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, p 1&2)  As Isaacson points out at the end of his biography, he's had his ups and down through the years, playing every role from that of the country bumpkin, the fool, to a philosopher, scientist, diplomat and autodidact.  Isaacson points out on page 2 that Franklin was during his lifetime America's  best scientist, inventor, diplomat, writer and business strategist. He also points out that "the most interesting thind that Franklin invented , and continually reinvented, was himself." (Isaacson, p 2)

While I've read other biographies of him Isaacson, written for the average reader, presents him most fully and with the warts on--and yet has the old geezer come out on top in the end. (My other favorite is Brands).

So let's start off with Ben (Franklin is the only founder who can be readily identified by the short version of his name. Nobody identifies Jefferson as Tom or Hamilton as Al or Madison as Jim) being born--January 17, 1706 (or was it January 17, 1735?) N.S./ O.S.

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