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Exiles of the New York Times
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Author Topic: American History  (Read 29445 times)
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johnr60
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« Reply #2385 on: May 27, 2008, 10:05:29 PM »

THE GIRL ON THE RED VELVET SWING.

Try Kennedy:  The Flaming Corsage.
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madupont
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« Reply #2386 on: May 28, 2008, 01:48:35 AM »

I'm familiar with the actual "story" but it's been years since I read anything on it.
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madupont
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« Reply #2387 on: May 28, 2008, 02:00:37 AM »

"The trial was also a feature in the movie Ragtime with Norman Mailer playing Stanford White and Elizabeth McGovern as the lovely Evelyn Nesbit",  had forgotten that.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #2388 on: May 28, 2008, 07:16:10 AM »

I'd be up for American Eve.  The story of Stanford White, Evelyn Nesbitt and Harry K. Thaw is a great one.  I read Michael McDonald Mooney's book on Nesbitt and White years ago and it was very good.  There is also Lessard's book, The Architect of Desire: Beauty and Danger in the Stanford White Family,

http://www.amazon.com/Architect-Desire-Beauty-Danger-Stanford/dp/0385319428/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211973109&sr=1-2

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Dzimas
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« Reply #2389 on: May 28, 2008, 07:55:03 AM »

Maddie, there is also The Girl in the Red Velvet Swing (1955) with Joan Collins and Ray Milland,



http://www.amazon.com/Girl-Red-Velvet-Swing/dp/B000P5FH1W/ref=pd_sim_b_title_44
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madupont
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« Reply #2390 on: May 28, 2008, 01:45:08 PM »

Maddie, there is also The Girl in the Red Velvet Swing (1955) with Joan Collins and Ray Milland,



http://www.amazon.com/Girl-Red-Velvet-Swing/dp/B000P5FH1W/ref=pd_sim_b_title_44
/


Yes, I'm quite sure that I saw that, either on television such as it was in the second-half of the 1950s or actually went into a theatre, I don't know but very likely since there was Farley Granger, " as the husband", as they used to say in those days, and let's face it I was a young woman.  Which is why, I recommended:
Ragtime           by E.L. Doctorow(novel),directed by Milos Foreman
            "A young black pianist becomes embroiled in the lives of an upper-class white family set among the racial tensions, infidelity, violence, and other nostalgic events in early 1900s New York City." and look at the cast:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082970
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Dzimas
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« Reply #2391 on: May 29, 2008, 02:05:21 AM »

Ragtime is a great read, Maddy.  I liked the way Doctorow weaved Nesbitt and Emma Goldman together.  I saw pieces of the movie.  It was fun to watch.  Great casting. 
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madupont
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« Reply #2392 on: May 29, 2008, 08:49:29 AM »

In fact, now that you mention it, I think it is time to see Ragtime again.
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Bob
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« Reply #2393 on: May 29, 2008, 04:45:18 PM »

In the old days  (NY Times days) we read  a couple or more of good historical fiction and the discussions went very well. I remember one involved John Brown and the other was Robert Penn Warren's ALL THE KING'S MEN. I don't see why we couldn't entertain reading RAGTIME.
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madupont
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« Reply #2394 on: May 29, 2008, 10:27:04 PM »

I felt rather inspired today, Bob, and found that Evelyn Nesbit was not the only girl in that era of mover and shakers, wheelers and dealers, architects, etc. who became famous and then infamous just like that. It seemed to be a constant in that era.
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weezo
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« Reply #2395 on: May 29, 2008, 11:46:14 PM »

Bob,

I am in and out of reading books on Jefferson. I just finished Virginius Dabney's Rebuttal to the Jefferson Scandals and found it seriously unconvincing, especially in light of the establishment that the Carr brothers were not, as he speculates, the father of "all" of Sally's children. Dabney does not even mention Jefferson's brother, who is now being tagged with the fatherhood of at least Eston Hemings based on the DNA evidence which states with certainty that Eston's father was a Jefferson male. Other than ole Tom, that leaves only his brother, so the blame is going in that direction, according to Herbert Barger, the apologist for Jefferson on Va. History.

Dabney falls back on Jefferson's admission of the affair with Betsy Walker as having happened when he was "young and single", yet Jon Kukla, in Jefferson's Women says that Jefferson continued to harrass Mrs. Walker until 1779, five years before he left for France. I went back to Kukla's book after closing the cover on Dabney, and looked again at the point raised about Mrs. Walker. There is a statement by John Walker, in Henry "Lighthorse" Lee's hand, that alleges the harassment continued after Jefferson married, and perhaps in the same building with Marth Jefferson present. I'm not sure where to find a copy of the John Walker statement, or the letters that passed between Walker and Jefferson, as well as Lee on the matter. Kukla states that  Malone included the Walker Statement, in part, in one of his books, and that E. M. Halliday also speculated on whether Jefferson was the aggressor or not (Jefferson was too good a man to do such a thing - the woman must have led him on!).

Have you read Halliday's Understanding Thomas Jefferson, or Malone's Jefferson the Virginian? Would it be worthwhile for me to buy and read either book, or do they also miss the point that Jefferson may have been publically moral, and intimitely less than wonderful?

I found it intensely amusing that Dabney kept putting down Fawn Brodie's Intimate History as "psychohistory", yet the strongest argument for the naysayers in both the Walker affair and Sally Hemings, is a similarly "psychohistory" that "such a great man could not have done the deed".

Thanks for any suggestions you may have.

Also, if James Callendar's pieces are online somewhere, perhaps I should try to give them a read and see what an awful liar this man may have been. It does not polish Jefferson's pedistal that he enlisted Callendar's articles when it suited his needs (to put down Adams and the Federalists), but Callendar became a liar when he spoke equally scandalously about Jefferson.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #2396 on: May 30, 2008, 02:01:43 AM »

I felt rather inspired today, Bob, and found that Evelyn Nesbit was not the only girl in that era of mover and shakers, wheelers and dealers, architects, etc. who became famous and then infamous just like that. It seemed to be a constant in that era.

Stanford White went through quite a few chorus girls on his "red velvet swing," but he hadn't reckoned on the even more depraved mind of Harry K. Thaw, and the lengths to which he would use Evelyn Nesbitt to get back at him for a perceived slight many years before.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #2397 on: May 30, 2008, 02:35:47 AM »

THE GIRL ON THE RED VELVET SWING.

Try Kennedy:  The Flaming Corsage.

Love the Albany Cycle.  Can never get enough of William Kennedy.  Albany's answer to William Faulkner.
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madupont
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« Reply #2398 on: May 30, 2008, 02:01:35 PM »

Dzimas
I felt rather inspired today, Bob, and found that Evelyn Nesbit was not the only girl in that era of mover and shakers, wheelers and dealers, architects, etc. who became famous and then infamous just like that. It seemed to be a constant in that era.

Stanford White went through quite a few chorus girls on his "red velvet swing," but he hadn't reckoned on the even more depraved mind of Harry K. Thaw, and the lengths to which he would use Evelyn Nesbitt to get back at him for a perceived slight many years before.


Not exactly what I was trying to say. Yesterday I discovered the Coen brothers' "Marva Munson".  There were two Munson film actors in early films, Ona Munson(aka Woolcot) whom I mentioned in regard to Eric von Stroheim, when I deconstructed Sunset Blvd (although I don't think that the other participants, with exception of yourself, get what deconstruction is in any of the Arts).

Yesterday, following the topic of : No Country for Old Men, coming up again(in regular movie channels), I got into why the Coens are able to create a particular kind of film. This is when I discovered the other early film Munson, first nude lady on the screen as a result of her coming to the attention of California following the Pacific Exposition.

Just as Stanford White was known for his New York architecture, there are about a dozen plus sculptors whose work grace these buildings or is otherwise placed at vantage points around Manhattan (and some other parts of the country).   All of them worked with the same model,Audrey Marie Munson, as she was recommended quite obviously by their work. Daniel Chester French made her his regular model. I looked over his on-line place in the Berkshires, yesterday late at night.

The link that I am about to post here, I had to get The New York Times to hunt  up for me;another from five years previous could not be found but  may have revealed more in regard to the mystery of what happened.
(as I said before, things are getting lost over there as they make space. I noticed that in regard to movies reviewed long,long ago, which I think they may regret)

The link is to an Attorney Popick (kindly supplied by Kerry Scott) and I checked out a site that he has going, yesterday as a reference  found when I posted the main headings available on Audrey Marie Munson over in Movies Forum.

She did make four films, considered lost, one was found still in existence in France. Contrary to attorney Popick's little joke, she was far from ugly, as can be seen on display throughout Manhattan; but the film censors when faced with what to do about her appearance, realized they had best just leave it alone or, they "would end up having to censor Renaissance Art!". Which was the style of the time, in the classic Greco-Roman tradition, to accompany the architecture of the city.

Her story is worse than Nesbitt's, where ever she and her mother were living in New York, the landlord got a hankering for Audrey Marie and, instead of a Stanford White being attacked by a jealous husband, the landlord murdered his wife so he could get next to Munson. They were no longer on the premises. When questioned by police, the answer quite honestly was that they had left their rental because the landlord's wife had asked them to find another place.

The scandal ruined her life in a way you can hardly imagine. Popick describes it here.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A07EEDB1139F937A25757C0A960958260&scp=1&sq=Rescuing%20a%20Heroine%20from%20the%20Clutches%20of%20Obscurity%20%20%20%20&st=cse

What he leaves out, is in the Movies Forum, but the suicide attempt put her in the state hospital for 65 years.  How so, 65 years, you may say? Because she lived to 105; and then was buried without so much as a headstone.
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thanatopsy
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« Reply #2399 on: May 30, 2008, 10:51:19 PM »

A true American legend and patriot:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/29/AR2008052902087.html?hpid=moreheadlines


U. Utah Phillips, 73, a Grammy-nominated folk singer, rabble-rouser and anarchist whose wild white beard recalled his years as a tramp, died of heart disease May 23 at his home in Nevada City, Calif.


 Cry
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