Escape from Elba
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johnr60
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« Reply #600 on: September 13, 2007, 07:39:38 PM »

I think the Bear is Faulkner's best work but Delta is needed there.  He's not good at putting his stories together.

Cycles have nothing to do with the question.  A new cycle is a new time.

The idea Spengler is expressing is held by many, including Russell.  Faulkner was certainly aware of it.
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #601 on: September 13, 2007, 07:41:40 PM »

Quote
The idea Spengler is expressing is held by many, including Russell.  Faulkner was certainly aware of it.

Might have been aware of it, but did he agree?  How did Faulkner view time?

Reader....I like the idea of time as a river, but as you said...."evaporation."

This is interesting, but off-topic...apologies.
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pugetopolis
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« Reply #602 on: September 13, 2007, 07:57:26 PM »

Some thoughts on the moment

“They gushed like swallows swooping his eyelashes.”—William Faulkner, “June Second, 1910,” The Sound and the Fury, New York: Norton, 1994, page 67.

Rather than say what it is—Faulkner shows what it does.

The reason that there is no past—is that the eternal moment rules.

The “June Second, 1910” chapter of TSATF does what Joyce and Proust both do for Paris and Dublin—except it’s Yoknapatawpha time… Faulkner is just flexing his muscles and getting warmed up for Absalom, Absalom

I’ve kept the italicized eternal moment signatures in place:

The moment (page 67):

“What a shame that you should have a mouth like that it should be on a girl’s face” and can you imagine…the curtains leaning in on the twilight upon the odor of the apple tree her head against the twilight her arms behind her head kimono-winged the voice that breathed o’er eden clothes upon the bed by the nose above the apple…”

The moment (page 104):

“she took my hand and held it flat against her throat
now say his name
Dalton Ames
I felt the first surge of blood there it surged in strong accelerating beats say it again
her face looked off into the trees where the sun slanted and where the bird
say it again
Dalton Ames
her blood surged steadily beating and beating against my hand…”

The moment (page 93):

“I adore Canada,” Miss Daingerfield said. “I think it’s marvelous.”

“Did you ever drink perfume?” Spoade said. with one hand he could lift her to his shoulder and run with her running Running

“No,” Shreve said. running the beast with two backs* and she blurred in the winking oars running the swine of Euboeleus running couple within how many Caddy…”
________

*When  Persephone was carried off by Pluto, a swineherd called Euboeleus was herding his swine at the spot, and his herd was engulfed in the chasm down which Pluto vanished with Persephone. In an ancient Greek fertility rite, Euboeleus’ fate was recalled by flinging pigs into the chasms of Demeter and Persephone. Women then fetched the decayed remains and after a purity ritual, sowed the flesh with seeds in the ground to secure a good crop and ensure human fertility. Cakes of dough in the shape of serpents and phalli were cast into the caverns to symbolize fertility.” (Norton, page 93)

________

TSATF is just a warm-up for Quentin and Shreve to channel back into the Absalom Now again and again…the Now being a constant preoccupation with Faulkner and the modernists… There never was a past…only the living breathing present moment…that’s all we have…like Holly Martin says in The Third Man..."Stream of what?Huh?" Not even stream of consciousness can catch it...yet somehow Faulkner does it...how???

Yeah, well, they say we’re "postmodernists" now—at least that’s what they say dontchaknow…to me the now is all we have...kinda like Absalom Apocalypse…  "running the beast with two backs..."



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johnr60
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« Reply #603 on: September 13, 2007, 08:15:53 PM »

"Becoming lies beyond the domain of cause and effect, law and measurement."

You may only determine cause and effect (science) in reflective consciousness.  Becoming is happening in the now where there is no time.
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pugetopolis
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« Reply #604 on: September 13, 2007, 09:10:03 PM »

"When I began it I had no plan at all. I wasn't even writing a book."

-- William Faulkner, TSATF Introduction, Southern Review, page 710.
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weezo
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« Reply #605 on: September 13, 2007, 09:46:12 PM »

rmdig,

No, that use of the "N" word has no historical context. I'm not even sure that that usage goes beyond a small cicle of family, friends and students I've taught over the years. It is a good way to make the point that black folks are on an equal basis with white folks, and that lower levels of both exist equally. As I've said before in these forums, I sent any student using the term to the office during my teacher years, and this was essentially the explanation I used to defend my position. It could well be my own invention and not known past my circle of folks.

Usually, when hubby uses the phrase "I know more white "N"s than black "N"s, it causes people to stop and think, and they very often agree with him. I don't know how lasting the new consideration is, but it diffuses the situation at hand.
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pugetopolis
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« Reply #606 on: September 13, 2007, 10:22:12 PM »



"A story is something
that constantly unfolds."
-- Quentin Tarantino
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« Reply #607 on: September 14, 2007, 06:03:25 AM »

rmdig,

No, that use of the "N" word has no historical context. I'm not even sure that that usage goes beyond a small cicle of family, friends and students I've taught over the years. It is a good way to make the point that black folks are on an equal basis with white folks, and that lower levels of both exist equally. As I've said before in these forums, I sent any student using the term to the office during my teacher years, and this was essentially the explanation I used to defend my position. It could well be my own invention and not known past my circle of folks.

Usually, when hubby uses the phrase "I know more white "N"s than black "N"s, it causes people to stop and think, and they very often agree with him. I don't know how lasting the new consideration is, but it diffuses the situation at hand.

Weezo, I heard that expression down here when I was a kid, so it isn't only your family, it was pretty wide spread.  I haven't heard it in many years though.  Growing up though we were not allowed to use that word at all.  I still remember how shocked I was when I heard an older black lady calling a younger black woman a lazy_____, I'd never heard that before. 
That said, the usage of the word in A,A was not anymore than any other book set in that time and place, in fact I am reading some of James Lee Burke's Dave Robicheaux detective series that are set in South Louisiana and it is used, sparsely granted, but used in context as it would be in life by certain people.
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rmdig
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« Reply #608 on: September 14, 2007, 06:28:10 AM »

weezo

In a review of Randall Kennedy's book, Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word, James McWhorter has this to say and I think he makes a very good point:

"But the other convention of "nigger," stage three, is the increasingly prevalent attempts by whites to fashion "nigger" into a reference to people of all races who display inappropriate behavior, weak character, and slovenly speech. The most memorable recent example was Senator Robert Byrd's controversial remark that "I've seen a lot of white niggers in my time." Now, it would be lovely if "nigger" really did shed any association with a particular race, becoming synonymous with "wastrel" or "asshole." But in our moment, alas, this use of "nigger" makes me cringe. What I hear in "white nigger" is "white person who is so disreputable as to compare with the worst among even black people." The subtle implication is that the lowly black person is the lowliest person of all. At the very least it reveals a certain obsession with "the Negro" and his character. After all, why are we not using "wop," "spic," or "kike" in this way? Some might object that these terms are all now a tad archaic, but this only begs the question as to why they were not recruited in such fashion when they were current."

I've underlined what I see as an unassailable contention.  The word has not (and probably never will) "shed any association with a particular race," and for that reason using it in the way you suggest your husband does strikes me as being patently racist.  Perhaps unintentionally so but racist nonetheless.
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weezo
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« Reply #609 on: September 14, 2007, 07:33:21 AM »

rmdig,

I recall that when my children were small and my oldest son was first going to an integrated school for first grade, I cautioned him against using the "N" word with this rationale. One day, a bit into the school year, he came home with blood on his shirt (back in those days schools did not call the parents when there was an incident in school) and I asked him what had happened. He said he got punched for using the "N" word on a classmate. I repremanded him and reminded him that that was an insult. He reminded me of the definition and said that the boy was white and was an "N". I then corrected my original definition to instruct him that he should not call ANYONE by the "N" word.

Further explanation, is that the "N" word was not used in our home, but my son had heard it used commonly in the neighborhood. My first husband, like myself, was born in Pennsylvania and transplanted to the south. It is my second husband who counters casual use of the term with that definition.

I am now advised that this use of the "N" word is still racist and disrespectful. It is, tho, effective in getting people to stop the casual use of the term at least in hubby's presence.



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desdemona222b
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« Reply #610 on: September 14, 2007, 09:01:11 AM »

Dessie,

There are indeed southerners who still display the stars and bars. Hubby has an artificial eye, and has plastic faces for it, depending on the time of year. His "party eye" displays the stars and bars. He got his picture in the paper for wearing the eye to a civil war battle re-enactment close to home. That said, he does not have a racist mentality and vehemently argues against those who do. When the "N" word is used in his presence, he usually point out that he knows more white "N"s than black "N"s, which usually causes most people to rethink their expression. There is a non-racist contigent in the south that view the stars and bars as their "heritage", and will defend it as a symbol of courage and heroism rather than as a symbol of racism.

As to moving to a better place, I moved to the south forty years ago, and cannot think of a place where I'd rather live. I really do like the beautifully long spring and fall seasons, the mild winters, and, with air conditioning, tolerate the torrid summer. I like it here. And, I am a staunch opponant of racism, both that occurs in the south, and that which is practiced in other places.


By "better place" I was referring to moving away from the DEEP South during Reconstruction - lots of people were literally starving to death, so they went elsewhere.  All of my relatives relocated to Texas, for example, which had not been ravaged by the war.  The fact is, the sentimentality about the old South just isn't as prevalent there - at least partially because they could brag about being Texans.  (lol)

I've had to rethink my own views on Civil War re-enactments and such, and I am quite aware that all people who participate in such activities or display the stars and bars are not racists.  Certainly there is some historical merit to the re-enactments, but displaying the stars and bars is very racially insensitive in my opinion.  If you're going to a function like a re-enactment or something like that, it's not so bad (the eye patch sounds humorous and innocuous enough), but people around here display gigantic stars and bars flags on their pick-up trucks, and there have been incidents of racial harassment by people who do this kind of thing.  It's just not really very sensitive.

Having said that, I wouldn't leave the South either - I've lived in the South all my life by deliberate choice and I love it, warts and all.  Nothing beat the beauty of the flora and the fauna, that much is sure, and I love the southern lifestyle.

My sister, who has lived in California for about 20 years now, said something the other day about not wanting to discuss our southern heritage with her son.  (We have lots of great and great-great grandfathers who fought in the Civil War, and she acts like Southerners are just stupid hicks.)  I told her I was going to force them to go to a maudlin laser show display that glorifies the old South here when she come to visit as punishment - yeeeee-HAAA!
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weezo
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« Reply #611 on: September 14, 2007, 09:58:39 AM »

Dessie,

A few corrections. First of all the stars and bars is NOT the confederate flag. The flag adopted by the confederacy included the stars and bars but on a white field. The proper designation for the star and bars is the "Battle Flag of Northern Virginia". It was used by Lee's army, but was not used by other armies in the south, and was not the official flag of the rebel government.

I once had a southern genealogical enthusiast ask me why northerners were not as "interested in their heritage" as southerners (I'd pointed out that as far as I knew none of my ancesters had participated in the Civil War). My reply was that notherners were just as interested in their heritage as southerners, but they didn't confine their definition of heritage to events that happened in a four year span. Virginians tend to define their ancestors by their involvement in the Civil War rather than pride themselves on being descended from farmers, inventors, shopkeepers, politicians, doctors, or other professions. And, of course, any Virginian who is interested in genealogy want to find that original connection to the nobility or royalty. Anyone who was descended from the laborers, mechanics, and indentured servents is likely to be silenced by those descended by nobility!

Southern historians love to make a big deal out of the fact that the Civil War was fought over "States Rights" rather than slavery. Until recently, that is what was taught in southern history textbooks. As I love to point out, What was it the states wanted to right to do? Enforce slavery! Nuff said. And, southern historians still have a great disdain for Abraham Lincoln. I have been amused by those who assert Lincoln was so dumb as to have allowed the Civil War to happen (by not giving sway to his "betters"), and those who say he was so crafty as to "trick" the south into beginning the war. It always amuses me that many southerners refer to the Civil War as the War of Northern Aggression, even tho they fired the first shot.

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« Reply #612 on: September 14, 2007, 11:48:15 AM »

Great thread.I´ve learned lots of USAmerican history and I am now surprised to notice how South American the South of US is! I guess that is why Faulkner reads so well to us SouthAms.
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weezo
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« Reply #613 on: September 14, 2007, 01:54:23 PM »

Interesting comment, Martin.

The south was, and to some extent is, a land where the landed gentry feel the right to rule over the peasants. Lots of inroads have been made towards democratizing the south, but, even in the county I live in, the "good old boys" tend to get re-elected by the locals, if not by the come-here's. As more people move into the county that may change. It may happen this fall. Or, maybe not. Perhaps the grand old families have opened their arms to the newbies and brought them into the fold. Along Route 1, where there used to be a string of trailer parks, there are now lovely, large new homes on large lots. Not homes that were purchased by those who once lived in the now-displaced trailers. The people in these home may well sway this year's election, but which way is still to be determined.

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« Reply #614 on: September 15, 2007, 08:40:15 PM »

Dave Chappelle swears by it.  He explains to the white audience among his cross-over audience so that they fully understand it.  That in today's politics that is what one becomes for allowing this kind of politics.

I had forebears that fought in the War between the States and who were from the North, Scotsmen mostly, they were landed gentry in a peculiar way whose life was agricultural in that they sold their holdings in Scotland and imported livestock from Scotland to raise in the US for the agricultural work needs of the Midwest.  This allowed them to attain that monetary status unusual for their time which is no longer unusual in the US under the present administration. 

The question of what or for whom they fought in the Civil War is not really difficult to comprehend when you understand their landed gentry status derives from being of a social class whose neighbor rode over to visit regularly and that was Sir Walter Scott.  Since in the course of his writing, he took time off from time to time, in the cause of the defense against the continuing persecution for witch-craft in his homeland,and wrote a novel dealing with the persecution of Jews among the British, the milieu of that time and place emigrating to the United States were concerned foremost with the Abolition of Slavery.

It has taken us those generations to work it out in reality to the eventual integration of family successfully.
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