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Author Topic: Myth and Literature  (Read 2063 times)
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2007, 10:24:58 PM »

Quote
So is this sample of Ovid, from Metamorphoses, since the line above speaks of mythological transmutations?

 First line of Book I.
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2007, 02:04:16 PM »

Myth heaven for me today.  My husband has to be out of town so I am buying a big bag of peanut M&Ms, a large iced coffee from Dunkin Donuts, and settling myself in for an overnighter with the Ring Cycle....eighteen hours with Wotan, Fricka, Freya, the Niebelung....Myth heaven.
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2007, 05:50:19 AM »

NyTemps....She sounds like a very funny lady.  But don't be too hard on Wagner.  Anyone who can get nine sopranos with spears to sing together on one stage without killing each other can't be all bad.  Wink
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elportenito
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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2007, 12:22:57 AM »

I'm reading now La Chanson de Roland, the bilingual edition of Piere Jonin in ancient and modern French, soft cover for only 7.20 Euros at Mollat bookshop in Burdeaux.


http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~Harsch/gallica/Chronologie/11siecle/Roland/rol_ch01.html



give it a go, it's bloody worth it.
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2007, 12:34:34 AM »

elportenito...you might enjoy this.  Segments of Roland in Old French, either to read or have read to you.

http://eee.uci.edu/programs/medieval/ofclips.html
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 12:36:48 AM by Lhoffman » Logged
elportenito
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« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2007, 01:01:26 AM »

lhoffman: Thankyou,I've tried, but you're asked to update. I think I've listened to it before.
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madupont
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« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2007, 02:31:44 PM »

And?
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elportenito
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2007, 08:55:49 AM »

lhoffman: What kind of washing machine you have that the Rince Cycle takes 18 hours?......
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2007, 11:51:07 AM »

We had a storm pass through yesterday that knocked my computer out...nice getting rain, though.

Unfortunately, I don't read French well enough to appreciate the assonance in the original, but I find the poem interesting as a study of propaganda and the rise of heroic myth.  (Not to discount its literary value)

From my understanding, Roncesvals was caused by two stragglers who were caught unaware.  Roland apparently was not present at this battle but was inserted into the account at a later date because he was Charlemagne's nephew and was well-known. 

Also interesting is that Roncesvals seems to begin the descent of Charlemagne.  Before this, he seemed almost super-human...infallible, invincible.  Does his thirst for vengeance corrupt him?  Is he so disillusioned at the betrayal and cowardice of that his vision becomes clouded?  True, he disliked Ganelon, but did he distrust him before this point?  Or does Roncesvals merely coincide with Charlemagne's star beginning to wane?

And what of Ganelon?  Torn to death by horses and placed in Hell by Dante....
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2007, 12:22:06 PM »

lhoffman: What kind of washing machine you have that the Rince Cycle takes 18 hours?......

 Cheesy

Wagner is amazing.  But the fascinating thing about mythology is that the gods didn't seem to take care of things any better than we humans.  Of course they put all the blame on Fate with a capital "F."
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madupont
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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2007, 12:53:51 PM »

I'm reading now La Chanson de Roland, the bilingual edition of Piere Jonin in ancient and modern French, soft cover for only 7.20 Euros at Mollat bookshop in Burdeaux.


http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~Harsch/gallica/Chronologie/11siecle/Roland/rol_ch01.html



give it a go, it's bloody worth it.


The language is -- Provencal, other than French, and was spoken  utterly differently,
as either langue-d'oc or langue-d'oil. Some say it has some of both influences but  with a heavier load of Arabic, that was largely solidified by the Gascognes in the southwest corner closer to the Spanish border (One of the three musketeers of Dumas came from there but, I forget which one, as I can only picture Gerard Depardieu in my mind's eye where he seems to be God).

In any case, it was left laying around, Chanson de Roland, in my childhood, as suitable for reading; as the title suggests why it remained in domestic memory is that it was relayed by song. Work at the end of the day, among peasants in France, before it became too dark to see by candle-light and the fire, in order to do handwork, was accompanied by a spinner who both spun and told yarns of the kind that Perrault collected. I knew his descendent, when I first became interested in foreign films and art film.

I once got into minor-trouble at National Security forum of the old york times when I  disambiguated Contes de ma mère l'Oye, by substituting three of our favourite characters who hung out in that forum. The posting regulars could not figure out why it was there but the villain of the three was furious. It was simply my commentary on their contributions to the input on National Security.

The cut off line for the use of the Southern languages runs from the Atlantic coast, south of speaking the santongeais dialect,through bourbonnais,bourguignon, to franc-comtois just south of the region from which my grandfather came.

After a fellow-poet did his sabbatical by going to England to hang out with the "new poets" of the 1960s and published the break up of his marriage in something called Our Bedroom's Underground, with the Vietnam war going on, he started a Free School on Campus during the protests and managed to lose his tenure.  I think that either before or after teaching in Japan for awhile, he probably went back to Univ. of Michigan at Ann-Arbor for his study in the Provencal Poets.  I've never read anything he did on them because he went back to teach in Japan where all his colleagues are guys from the British colonies under the auspices of what used to be an Anglican Mission school. (by the way, I notice your language has changed; see, above sample)

The only poet who really had the old knack for it was another,surpassing romance,Galway Kinnell, better known for the later era of Parisian, Francois Villon; although I suspect John Berger,the English art critic, who went to live with the peasants in the south of France because it was really the thing to do for any of us who want to survive, probably learned to speak some of it and read it quite well. "communist", you know, with a small c.

Incidentally, the down-turn for Charlemagne was inevitable for an emperor as the Pope will out and, after he supported the Medici, while the Burgundian factions had done the ground work by loosening up the support of the throne, the eventual same bunch who had conquered Jerusalem remained in power as knights Templar and local nobility and still hold sway where it counts, whereas you notice the Pope is still with us and reasserting "the old ways".

Some people think all this oral-tradition stuff means it is mythical rather than history which continues.
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madupont
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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2007, 12:55:26 PM »

Has anyone here read enough of Ovid to say whether (and/or how) his writing changed after the exile?

I know. But, I'm not telling.
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madupont
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2007, 07:10:09 PM »

Thank you, you deserve it.
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elportenito
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2007, 08:49:19 AM »

madupont, you're not just a pritty face.
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Lhoffman
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« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2007, 09:07:16 PM »

The Daphne myth is somewhat disturbing from a female point of view.  Here is Daphne, a rather independent, free-spirited sort.  She understands she is beautiful, but beauty if only a component of self, not the whole.  And mortal...
 

Here we have Apollo, who is described quite nicely by Byron in his "Childe Harold":

The lord of the unerring bow,
The god of life, and poetry, and light,
The Sun, in human limbs arrayed, and brow
All radiant from his triumph in the fight.
The shaft has just been shot; the arrow bright
With an immortal's vengeance; in his eye
And nostril, beautiful disdain, and might
And majesty flash their full lightnings by
Developing in htat one glance the Deity."


Apollo, the victim of a nasty prank, but not entirely a victim of anything aside form his own arrogance, falls head over for Daphne.  And in a situation such as this, what chance does Daphne have?  It is a given that her only choice is sacrifice of self.  Apollo gets the ball rolling.  The first thing he does after falling "in love"?  He strives to change her...to make her a new and better Daphne.  He looks at her hair and imagines how much more beautiful she would be if it would arranged more stylishly!  Apparently it is well-known that Daphne eschews marriage, but our Apollo sets out to change all that. 

The free-spirited becomes fearful.
Huntress becomes prey.
And in the end, Daphne becomes adornment for the heroes' brow.
Evergreen yeah you bet, but adornment none the less.   

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