Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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Author Topic: Nonfiction  (Read 4676 times)
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barton
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« Reply #255 on: April 22, 2008, 10:46:15 AM »

Several attempts were made with marshmallow peeps, but the diviners kept eating them while their faces were down in the hat, so they switched to pebbles.

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desdemona222b
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« Reply #256 on: April 22, 2008, 11:27:46 AM »

LOL - isn't that bizarre, though?  Peep stone - right.  My question is, if you're walking around with your face in a hat, looking down toward the ground, how the hell do you keep from stepping into an abandoned mine shaft or something?  Oh well, there's risk in everything.
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harrie
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« Reply #257 on: April 22, 2008, 11:47:37 AM »

I attended a Jehovah's Witness funeral and was stunned at some of the beliefs spoken of during the service.  The part that made me go "huh?" was where after the second or third round of Armageddon (IIRC, it's been a couple years), certain of the (deceased at the time) JH faithful will pop up and enjoy the cleansed earth, aka Paradise. Having been raised with no religious education, I just looked at the hubby like "People really buy this?"  Hope I didn't offend anyone, I just don't get religion in general.
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madupont
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« Reply #258 on: April 22, 2008, 12:45:06 PM »

harrie,

there was something equally ridiculous in the info about Church of Latter Day Saints.  Something to do with not only was everybody going go arise and then be raptured to the above but, dig this, the Native Americans who were "displaced" by the Mormons when they settled Utah,etc. would also pop-up and massacre all the "baddies" who don't like Mormons and the sinful Mormons who are not repturing upward.

Now to me this was a dead, no pun intended give away on the topic that Desdemona will be discussing, although she is probably on the issue of the current killing because some Mormon or two "justified it" as "a just or righteous murder", this is in the modern period among our contemporaries in the US. But, the material that I'm looking for has to do with that original trek Westward, when other people began to arrive by wagon train, the Mormons took umbrage at having to share an area regionally that they felt was given to them by God, so they decked themselves out as Indians (no Boston tea-party this) in a similar situation  that was fictionalized on an earlier season of HBO's, Deadwood, where a little girl survives one of these massacres in the foothills of the Dakotas, attributed to Sioux Indians but, you got it, these were actually white men in masquerade because they had "gold in them thar hills", the basis of the story for Deadwood.

Thus, I was rather taken by a modern day explanation of a prophet in chains held by federal authorities describing what will happen on the Last Day, when the Native Americans will come forth and scalp the wicked, metaphysically or metaphorically because everybody is already dead anyway.

How do you like that story?
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madupont
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« Reply #259 on: April 22, 2008, 01:29:15 PM »

desdemona222b, Reviews on Krakauer,et al from NYRB

Starts with Liquid Silver at post #198 Nonfiction forum. You are at #209. (and then we continue discussing opinions on Larry McMurty's critique until, #214 Desdemona on Alison Weir, The Princes in the Tower.
                                                                   January 18, 2008, 03:43:40 PM ).

Just click backwards on this forum to mid-page,[14]

I would have made such an annoying Librarian.
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desdemona222b
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« Reply #260 on: April 22, 2008, 01:50:36 PM »

Another little-known fact - Joseph Smith was murdered in a shoot-out.  People who weren't LDS tired of him and his peep stones and tablets, to say the least.
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nytempsperdu
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« Reply #261 on: April 27, 2008, 05:21:43 PM »

Thanks for carrying on over here re the separation issue.  I suppose I was coming at it from a point of view of the psychological effects of the sudden dislocation of children from both parents at once to have them go into foster homes with strangers, likely with little or no understanding of their way of life or needs or resources to cope with same. Then, too, I don't know what the foster care system in TX is like, but in CA some of those children would be in greater danger of actual physical or sexual abuse in foster care than if left with their mothers, however indoctrinated.  Maybe the intense media scrutiny will help safeguard them.
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bosox18d
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« Reply #262 on: April 28, 2008, 01:27:34 AM »

I grew up in Rochester and Palmyra, NY where Joesph Smith found the tablets is a wee bit east of Rochester.In July there is a  Hill Cumorah show that is quite spectacular on the early days of Joesph Smith and finding the tablets on the hill.It runs for a few weeks.At one time you just pulled your car up like a drive in but I'm pretty sure that's changed.In high school we went a few times and with some good weed the light show was awesome.It was really big show and it's gotten a lot bigger.That whole area east and south of Rochester through the finger lakes was part of the burned over district where many odd religions,sects and utopias came and went during that period.Nearby Seneca Falls was also a hotbed of the early Women's Rights movement.
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desdemona222b
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« Reply #263 on: April 28, 2008, 12:07:28 PM »

Thanks for carrying on over here re the separation issue.  I suppose I was coming at it from a point of view of the psychological effects of the sudden dislocation of children from both parents at once to have them go into foster homes with strangers, likely with little or no understanding of their way of life or needs or resources to cope with same. Then, too, I don't know what the foster care system in TX is like, but in CA some of those children would be in greater danger of actual physical or sexual abuse in foster care than if left with their mothers, however indoctrinated.  Maybe the intense media scrutiny will help safeguard them.

I have very mixed feeling about what they did in Texas, too, nyt.  Very mixed feelings.  I can't see just taking all the children away on a wholesale basis based on one call or a few pregnant teens.  It's hard to fathom what the kids are going through, let alone their mothers, who I view as victims, too.  They're never known any other life.  I did read the other day that the authorities are being very careful about placing the children in foster facilities where they will not be required to dress differently and they will be in facilities that do not care for any other children.  The classic temporary fix, I wonder what will ultimately happen to them.
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desdemona222b
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« Reply #264 on: April 28, 2008, 12:08:30 PM »

I grew up in Rochester and Palmyra, NY where Joesph Smith found the tablets is a wee bit east of Rochester.In July there is a  Hill Cumorah show that is quite spectacular on the early days of Joesph Smith and finding the tablets on the hill.It runs for a few weeks.At one time you just pulled your car up like a drive in but I'm pretty sure that's changed.In high school we went a few times and with some good weed the light show was awesome.It was really big show and it's gotten a lot bigger.That whole area east and south of Rochester through the finger lakes was part of the burned over district where many odd religions,sects and utopias came and went during that period.Nearby Seneca Falls was also a hotbed of the early Women's Rights movement.

Doubt they were looking to please the local stoners, bosox, but I whole-heartedly approve.
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madupont
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« Reply #265 on: April 28, 2008, 02:33:18 PM »

Are you familiar with the character in Austria who fathered six children by his daughter; and the neighbors never thought anything odd was taking place as those were his grandchildren. (two of whom never got to leave the cellar)

Perhaps, he was reading Nietzsche?

It is in most of the news media over the weekend.

" It's hard to fathom what the kids are going through, let alone their mothers, who I view as victims, too.  They're never known any other life. "  This is of course exactly why they are being put in foster care because, if the mothers have never known any other life, how are they going to explain correctly to the children what is taking place, separate from the gobbledygook all have been taught is "Religion" repeated by which ever prophet designates himself.

If they are not in separate custody, the mothers can tell them just about anything as well and the situation will never be corrected starting from the point when testimony has to be given in court -- by then they will all be brainwashed as ever; and the half-dozen ever how many underaged girls impregnated by god knows who will have their deliveries yet ahead of them the hard way.  One can have a fairly "easy" that is "quick" labor and still expect delivery with spinal anesthesia and episiotomy; or in some facilities for the cut-rate effect, guaranteed C-section because it is cost effective. As wards of the state, if they had met the "accepted" Religious code of the State, then they'd have "no problem". Being a teen-age mother is no snap. Ask their mothers.
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desdemona222b
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« Reply #266 on: April 28, 2008, 04:08:16 PM »

Just read about that, madupont.  Just as I was thinking I had heard it all when it comes to the depths of depravity a person can reach. 
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madupont
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« Reply #267 on: April 29, 2008, 03:06:13 PM »

desdemona222b

It does get worse, here's the headlines today:

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/31-of-53-sect-girls-have-been-pregnant/20080428171009990001
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nytempsperdu
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« Reply #268 on: April 29, 2008, 09:29:58 PM »

Quote
It's hard to fathom what the kids are going through, let alone their mothers, who I view as victims, too

Absolutely, desdemona.  I did hear one interview on NPR with a man who runs an emergency shelter where about 20 kids were taken.  He said shelter workers were mostly involved with caring for them as with any kids taken in during an emergency.  It seems the emphasis is more on observing, trying to establish rapport in low-key activities (get out the art materials) than any kind of questioning, etc.  When they ask about their parents, they are told the parents are glad they are in a good place until they can see them again.  (I was a little queasy about this, but don't really know what alternative is better.) I feel for them and for the mothers--it seems law enforcement types can't see themselves as other than rescuers.
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desdemona222b
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« Reply #269 on: April 30, 2008, 03:24:33 PM »

There's also the issue of the caller, who they believe was not a member of the sect, but some woman who has mental health issues.  Apparently the state is trying to say that's irrelevant at this point because so many of the women and girls in the cult got pregnant while they were minors.  Now they're saying lots of the kids have had broken bones.  I'm wondering if they've spotted spiral fractures in their arms and that sort of thing.

Not much has been made in the past about disciplinary practices in the FLDS, but you have to wonder.  Also read this morning that the mothers had instructed the kids not to answer any questions and the moms themselves were uncooperative.

Really difficult to decide what I think of the whole mess.  One thing for sure, this will be in the courts for a long time, I think.
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