Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
June 18, 2018, 09:23:45 PM *
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Question: What should be done to lower gas prices?
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Author Topic: Bush Administration  (Read 152713 times)
barton, Itz ME!, josh and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.
whiskeypriest
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« Reply #19530 on: May 18, 2018, 12:21:33 PM »

As... let's say squeamish as I am on abortion, I wonder if people on the right have.thought this through and are ready to see a liberal president cut funding for.providers who refuse to refer patients to abortion providers, or make funding decisions on any of a host of other political views.
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What does it matter?  All is grace.
REDSTATEWARD
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« Reply #19531 on: May 18, 2018, 12:22:15 PM »

The tide was too strong, pal.

There was no tide.  Trump lost the popular vote by 3 Million.  

Tide was where it needed to be.

Learn the game.  Jeez.

As I said....the votes where they needed to be amounted to an 80,000 voter advantage spread over three states. 

That is a gross distortion.  
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REDSTATEWARD
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« Reply #19532 on: May 18, 2018, 12:23:26 PM »

A misunderstanding here.   No one,  least of all me,  is saying that Hamas has not engaged in reprehensible forms of terrorism.  And,  for sure,  wasted Palestinian resources on tunnels and such.   I was making the point that this madness comes from a place of people who are genuinely dispossessed and oppressed.  And easily exploited by ideologues.   Let's not engage in sophistry and false equivalence arguments of the return-the-southwest-to-Spain form.  Or justify bad actors by saying hey,  the US does all that too.   Of course.   I wasn't saying our oppression doesn't also get my attention and concern.   

If you have hungry desperate Palestinians on one side, and comfortable well-fed well-armed Israelis on the other,  then shouldn't we expect a more sane response from Israel.   As I suggested, read about the Balfour declaration and the inequities and unjust decisions that later led to.   There is very little in that history to justify the theft of land,  and the burden should be on Israel,  who benefited hugely from that theft,  to make reparations. 


Revisionist History is a hoot!(cont’d)

Your mirth is not a counterargument. 
History is. 
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NeedsAdjustments
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« Reply #19533 on: May 18, 2018, 12:24:00 PM »

The tide was too strong, pal.

There was no tide.  Trump lost the popular vote by 3 Million.  

Tide was where it needed to be.

Learn the game.  Jeez.

As I said....the votes where they needed to be amounted to an 80,000 voter advantage spread over three states. 

That is a gross distortion.  

That is a verifiable fact.

If you think that fact is misrepresenting reality, please tell us how.
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barton
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« Reply #19534 on: May 18, 2018, 12:25:35 PM »


The opinion of people who don't have wombs is always so insightful on these matters.  Not having one myself, I defer to those who do and have to deal with what happens when someone squirts jizz into it and then goes on their merry way.  But your applause of the gradual implementation of the Women-as-Breeders ideology found in The Handmaid's Tale is duly noted.  
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"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes."
barton
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« Reply #19535 on: May 18, 2018, 12:29:16 PM »

A misunderstanding here.   No one,  least of all me,  is saying that Hamas has not engaged in reprehensible forms of terrorism.  And,  for sure,  wasted Palestinian resources on tunnels and such.   I was making the point that this madness comes from a place of people who are genuinely dispossessed and oppressed.  And easily exploited by ideologues.   Let's not engage in sophistry and false equivalence arguments of the return-the-southwest-to-Spain form.  Or justify bad actors by saying hey,  the US does all that too.   Of course.   I wasn't saying our oppression doesn't also get my attention and concern.   

If you have hungry desperate Palestinians on one side, and comfortable well-fed well-armed Israelis on the other,  then shouldn't we expect a more sane response from Israel.   As I suggested, read about the Balfour declaration and the inequities and unjust decisions that later led to.   There is very little in that history to justify the theft of land,  and the burden should be on Israel,  who benefited hugely from that theft,  to make reparations. 


Revisionist History is a hoot!(cont’d)

Your mirth is not a counterargument. 
History is. 

What aspect of history do you mean?  Please offer actual facts for discussion.  Or does a 51 year occupation of sovereign land, and brutal subjugation of its residents, not offer discursive material you are comfortable with? 
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REDSTATEWARD
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« Reply #19536 on: May 18, 2018, 12:30:47 PM »

The tide was too strong, pal.

There was no tide.  Trump lost the popular vote by 3 Million.  

Tide was where it needed to be.

Learn the game.  Jeez.

As I said....the votes where they needed to be amounted to an 80,000 voter advantage spread over three states. 

That is a gross distortion.  

That is a verifiable fact.

If you think that fact is misrepresenting reality, please tell us how.
How come you ignored Iowa, Ohio, and Florida in your selection of states? All three were flipped to Trump after going for Obama.
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REDSTATEWARD
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« Reply #19537 on: May 18, 2018, 12:32:30 PM »

A misunderstanding here.   No one,  least of all me,  is saying that Hamas has not engaged in reprehensible forms of terrorism.  And,  for sure,  wasted Palestinian resources on tunnels and such.   I was making the point that this madness comes from a place of people who are genuinely dispossessed and oppressed.  And easily exploited by ideologues.   Let's not engage in sophistry and false equivalence arguments of the return-the-southwest-to-Spain form.  Or justify bad actors by saying hey,  the US does all that too.   Of course.   I wasn't saying our oppression doesn't also get my attention and concern.   

If you have hungry desperate Palestinians on one side, and comfortable well-fed well-armed Israelis on the other,  then shouldn't we expect a more sane response from Israel.   As I suggested, read about the Balfour declaration and the inequities and unjust decisions that later led to.   There is very little in that history to justify the theft of land,  and the burden should be on Israel,  who benefited hugely from that theft,  to make reparations. 


Revisionist History is a hoot!(cont’d)

Your mirth is not a counterargument. 
History is. 

What aspect of history do you mean?  Please offer actual facts for discussion.  Or does a 51 year occupation of sovereign land, and brutal subjugation of its residents, not offer discursive material you are comfortable with? 
You are the one revising the history of the “ sovereign land” to suit your bias.
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barton
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« Reply #19538 on: May 18, 2018, 12:36:09 PM »

As... let's say squeamish as I am on abortion, I wonder if people on the right have.thought this through and are ready to see a liberal president cut funding for.providers who refuse to refer patients to abortion providers, or make funding decisions on any of a host of other political views.

Your views I respect, as they seem to come from your beliefs about the spiritual aspect of prenatal life.  And I don't get the sense you wish to impose any faith-based beliefs on others.  I don't like abortion myself, as it suggests to me that vulnerable members of our society have been deprived of the vital learning of how to manage their own fertility.  But how many on the Right are promoting effective teaching of birth control methods?  My sense is that their strategy is to tell hormone-addled teenagers, "Naughty!  Naughty!  Must not have sex until you are married!  Must not ever make a mistake!  Naughtiness will not stand!"

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"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes."
NYKnicks12
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« Reply #19539 on: May 18, 2018, 12:37:56 PM »

The tide was too strong, pal.

There was no tide.  Trump lost the popular vote by 3 Million.  

Tide was where it needed to be.

Learn the game.  Jeez.

As I said....the votes where they needed to be amounted to an 80,000 voter advantage spread over three states.  That is not a "tide" so great that it would not have been rolled back by the very same sort of October revelations (far more serious, in fact) Hillary had to contend with.

Noted, though, that your vote wouldn't have changed if you knew that Trump could be conspiring with Putin against American Democracy.  True Patriot.

Trump wasnt my candidate

He is from my party and we won.  I dont apologize.

Your party is actively hostile to people of color and everyone who isn’t rich. Yall just too stupid and racist to know it.


During the three-hour-long hearing, Wylie provided new details into the firm's more controversial practices, including discussions of voter suppression, targeting African-American voters, and testing of slogans in 2014 that would be later used throughout the Trump campaign in 2016.


https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/senate-cambridge-analytica-whistleblower-christopher-wylie-live-stream-updates-today-2018-05-16/
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NeedsAdjustments
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« Reply #19540 on: May 18, 2018, 12:40:09 PM »

How come you ignored Iowa, Ohio, and Florida in your selection of states? All three were flipped to Trump after going for Obama.

Because Hillary would not have needed to win those traditionally battleground states if she had received 80,000 more votes in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan.

I get why you are trying to change the subject REDSTATEWARD but I'm still curious to hear you defend your contention that the 2016 vote justified Giuliani's "it wasn't illegal" defense of Trump.
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evvie
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« Reply #19541 on: May 18, 2018, 12:40:47 PM »

A misunderstanding here.   No one,  least of all me,  is saying that Hamas has not engaged in reprehensible forms of terrorism.  And,  for sure,  wasted Palestinian resources on tunnels and such.   I was making the point that this madness comes from a place of people who are genuinely dispossessed and oppressed.  And easily exploited by ideologues.   Let's not engage in sophistry and false equivalence arguments of the return-the-southwest-to-Spain form.  Or justify bad actors by saying hey,  the US does all that too.   Of course.   I wasn't saying our oppression doesn't also get my attention and concern.   

If you have hungry desperate Palestinians on one side, and comfortable well-fed well-armed Israelis on the other,  then shouldn't we expect a more sane response from Israel.   As I suggested, read about the Balfour declaration and the inequities and unjust decisions that later led to.   There is very little in that history to justify the theft of land,  and the burden should be on Israel,  who benefited hugely from that theft,  to make reparations. 



Mr. Barton, I am sorry you think the comparison of land taken by Israel in the 20th century to land taken by the United States in the 20th century or land taken by Russia in the 21st century constitutes sophistry.

The madness certainly comes from people who were displaced and who refused offers of places to live. That they are oppressed is undeniable. They are oppressed by Israel, Egypt, Hamas, and the PLO.

"There is very little in that history to justify the theft of land,  and the burden should be on Israel,  who benefited hugely from that theft,  to make reparations."

250,000 - 350,000 residents of the Mandate were displaced prior to the declaration of the independence of Israel. Let's set aside those displaced by the wars for a moment. I have seen figures as high as a million. Including those displaced by the 1948 war, the figure of ~540,000 seems fairly solid as such things go.

Check out the speech to the United Nations by Fadel Jamall in 1947.

Look up the number of Jews forced out of other countries in 1948 and immediately thereafter. Consider, then, the reparations that should be made. WWII reparations provide an interesting model. This is about Frances' but there are others looking at Germany's, for example. This, by France, was the first to pay children of deceased victims.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/us-begins-paying-out-french-reparations-to-holocaust-survivors-and-their-heirs/2016/09/15/87b1de56-7abb-11e6-bd86-b7bbd53d2b5d_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.dff3e5768bae

The Balfour Declaration is a perfectly reasonable place to start.

And yes, the land grab was unprecedented historically.

The WWII treatment of the Jewish people is totally within precedence historically, even if Hitler took it to new extremes.

Given that there was no state of Israel when the UN division was made, why does it fall to Israel to make the reparations and not the UN members who voted for the division? (I might argue that Israel owes reparations for the 1967 war - might - but for the fact that we (the world) have never required winners to pay meaningful reparations.)
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NYKnicks12
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« Reply #19542 on: May 18, 2018, 12:41:42 PM »

The tide was too strong, pal.

There was no tide.  Trump lost the popular vote by 3 Million.  

Tide was where it needed to be.

Learn the game.  Jeez.

As I said....the votes where they needed to be amounted to an 80,000 voter advantage spread over three states. 

That is a gross distortion.  

That is a verifiable fact.

If you think that fact is misrepresenting reality, please tell us how.
How come you ignored Iowa, Ohio, and Florida in your selection of states? All three were flipped to Trump after going for Obama.

How about addressing the voter suppression tactics of the GOP?
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NeedsAdjustments
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« Reply #19543 on: May 18, 2018, 12:42:03 PM »

Trump wasnt my candidate

Bullshit.

But even if it was so, party over country isn't a formula that absolves you.
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evvie
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« Reply #19544 on: May 18, 2018, 12:44:16 PM »

A misunderstanding here.   No one,  least of all me,  is saying that Hamas has not engaged in reprehensible forms of terrorism.  And,  for sure,  wasted Palestinian resources on tunnels and such.   I was making the point that this madness comes from a place of people who are genuinely dispossessed and oppressed.  And easily exploited by ideologues.   Let's not engage in sophistry and false equivalence arguments of the return-the-southwest-to-Spain form.  Or justify bad actors by saying hey,  the US does all that too.   Of course.   I wasn't saying our oppression doesn't also get my attention and concern.   

If you have hungry desperate Palestinians on one side, and comfortable well-fed well-armed Israelis on the other,  then shouldn't we expect a more sane response from Israel.   As I suggested, read about the Balfour declaration and the inequities and unjust decisions that later led to.   There is very little in that history to justify the theft of land,  and the burden should be on Israel,  who benefited hugely from that theft,  to make reparations. 


Revisionist History is a hoot!(cont’d)

Your mirth is not a counterargument. 
History is. 

What aspect of history do you mean?  Please offer actual facts for discussion.  Or does a 51 year occupation of sovereign land, and brutal subjugation of its residents, not offer discursive material you are comfortable with? 

It was not sovereign land. Even the West Bank area was considered occupied by Jordan after the 1948 armistice. There was no governance in the areas that were set aside as "not Israel."
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