Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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Question: As you look back on your elementary and high school education, is it your impression that children today get a better or worse education than you did?
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weezo
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« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2007, 12:19:24 PM »

I would like to return us to the discussion of educational testing.

Some interesting points were made by Digital DrZ just before the forum switched software.

He made the point that on any standardized test, it is only a good and fair test if about half the students who take it "pass" the test. If more than half pass the test, the test is too easy.

As we strive to get a greater percentage of students to "pass" some standardized tests, when will we discover that "too many" kids are passing the tests and up the stakes? What will happen? Custom dictates that the tests will become harder, and that we will never achieve the objective of having all children proficient as measured on tests.

Bush is making a big deal about gains in children's reading ability as measured on some tests. According to him, the past five years have shown a greater rise than the previous 28 years. But, the years tested for his boasts are 1999 through 2004. 2004 was the first year that the "new" methods were in effect and measurable. So what really caused the five year gain?

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ngc321
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« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2007, 01:16:03 PM »

Capitalism is no shining star. It, too, is abusive.

Capitalism IS not a type of government---what we have in this country IS a representative republic, or democracy.

Capitalism has NOT murdered millions like communism has. Ya just gotta try to mimimize your own foot in your mouth from seeing truth about my statement on the numbers of killings assoiated with communism (and your pathetic attempt to parse deaths and murders), and your absolute disbelief that what liberals are really after could be associated in way with communism. Well, I am happy to disappoint you with truth!!!

How does your size 9 taste?? Or are you actually gonna refute these numbers AGAIN???

Liberals---the truth to a liberal "IS" like a cross to dracula.
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thecap0
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« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2007, 01:23:49 PM »

ngc,

*Capitalism IS not a type of government---what we have in this country IS a representative republic, or democracy.

Silly child.  Neither is communism.  Communism is an economic system, not a government.
You flunk AP Economics with an F!
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liquidsilver
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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2007, 01:42:58 PM »

Capitalism has NOT murdered millions like communism has.

Of course it has.  J.P. Morgan purchased defective rifles from a U.S. arsenal for $3.50 apiece and sold them back to the Union Army for $22 each during the Civil War. IBM sold punch card machines to the Third Reich to help the Nazis  track down European Jewry.  The Dow Chemical Company manufactured and sold Agent Orange and napalm to the U.S. for use in Vietnam.
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liquidsilver
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2007, 01:57:28 PM »

The United States is by far the largest arms exporter in the world, do you really think those weapons are all used for hunting?
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weezo
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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2007, 02:12:11 PM »

NGC,

It will take me some time to parse the statistic presented by R.J. Rummey. He certainly was out to make a point, and I suspect that he counted deaths under communism in some categories that he neglected to collect comparable statistics under for capitalism.

Read the following story: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/health/22infant.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th ... Would you say these infant deaths are due to capitalism? If there were in a communist country, would you attribute them to communism. In order to compare statistics, you have to compare like fruits. You and your buddy seem inclined to compare apples to oranges in order to make your points.

There have been many deaths directly attributable to capitalism. Not only are there a significant number of worker deaths due to black lung, asbestos, refrigerant, fertilizer/pesticides, but in addition there have been many deaths attributed to fires in workplaces for which the capitalist failed to provide adequate fire safety. Not only the fires in factories in the north in times past, but even as recent as a decade ago, there was a fire in a chicken processing plant in NC from which workers could not escape because the capitalists who ran the plant had locked the doors from the outside, trapping the workers in the fire and smoke. And, of course, there are the numbers of murders committed in the efforts to suppress the labor movement. I'm reading about the murders now in Chicago, often by local police and private police forces hired by the business owners. These are all deaths attributed to capitalism.

Oh, and by the way, my foot is a six not a nine. If I find substantiation of Rummey's statistics from a more creditable source, I'll let you know. You did do as I asked an found a source. That was good of you. Now, the game is to find a creditable source. I may have to get the man's book and see if I can parse out the actual deaths due to political reasons from the rest of the deaths he lumps in.

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liquidsilver
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« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2007, 02:13:59 PM »

Actually I believe the life expectancy for Russians declined following the transition to capitalism
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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2007, 02:27:12 PM »

That great capitalist, Hnery Ford, won the Iron Cross from Hitler in 1943for selling 10,000 trucks to the Wehrmacht through Ford's Swiss subsidiary.
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samiinh
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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2007, 04:19:13 PM »

Where communism failed was in their attempt to take their way of government outside their own borders.

Not just that. Communism failed because of more than one reason--It destroys incentive. Also, who wants to be told how their life will be run, and what they will do for support from the govt to survive? If communism IS so fabulous, why are people trying by the boatload to get away from that Cuban paradise? Communism IS also cruel and unjust to everyone associated with it---especially those that have the temerity resist it. It also has, indeed, always tried to export its ideology, and it has failed miserably in that aspect.

As you will see, the numbers I quoted in relation to death that IS associated with its existence are quite correct. Communism IS an abusive abomination, and it will never work. Only 'modern' liberals think that it will.

I don't understand your hangup with communism.  No one here is promoting it as a successful system of government.  It was tried, it failed.   Now, will the American experiment with democracy succeed or fail?  That is the question after these last six years of republican incompetence and the Bush neocon fascists.
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ngc321
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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2007, 04:32:37 PM »

There will never be a credible source for liberals on anything that lends to the demonstration of the hypocrisy, cruelties, and failures of communism. The right people will never be in charge. Your belittling the deaths of so many at the hands of such butchers IS absolutely pathetic.

And capitalism has not murdered a single soul...there are no gulags---no KGBs...no GRUs---regardless of your liberal rants and parsing of truths, or liberal descriptions of how it IS unfair to those that cannot make millions, or how capitalism exploits mexicans, blacks, or any other minority. The point IS being free to succeed or fail.  Liberals are doomed to believing the naivetes of their pitiful approaches to assigning blame for whatever ills befall the world, and the rationales for remedies for those ills. And the remedy just ISn't communism/socialism/liberalism/progressive...as the old soviet union IS a testament to the failure of communism and cruelties to humans for their beliefs. If communism IS so fabulous, why don't you go to Miami and ask cubans about life under castro? Why would you imagine so many flee that 'paradise'?

It matters not---liberals wear blinders so truth doesn't interrupt thier la-la land world they live in.

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weezo
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« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2007, 05:21:15 PM »

NGC,

I find it amusing (or, perhaps more literally, disgusting) that you do not think that capitalism and its excesses have "murdered" anyone. Who, pray tell, do you think was responsible for the deaths of those in the NC poultry plant? The workers themselves? Or the capitalists that locked them into the plant? Do you realize that the statistics for deaths due to communism include deaths of workers who were worked "too hard" and people shipped to Siberia where they died not directly at the hands of anyone? I guess it was too much trouble for you to actually READ the evidence you post to "educate" others!

If the socialists, anarchist and communists of the late 19th century had not broken the power of the capitalist to allow labor to actually be free men, you could not be enjoying the luxuries you now take for granted, NGC. You owe your good fortune to those who sacrificed so much to make American a truly FREE nation.


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operaman
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« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2007, 05:35:23 PM »

One of the most noticable results of the internet has been the industry of right wing ranting and pre-emption of fora and blogs to force their twisted dogmatic fascism upon anyone who may access the forum.

oh for the days of 300, 1200 baud modems, when only essential on-line conversations took place, usually in an educational forum, usenet group or newsgroup.

Here it comes again, "free, unbiased, factual" demonstrations of the horrors of communism ( which capo has already replied as being ecomomic, as is capitalism), and linking these horrible monstors to "liberals"!!!!

And we already know that the master of all evil, Adolph Hitler was a liberal because his organization was "Socialist."

I believe the right-wing nuts fight so hard to link the Soviet and their fellow communists and the NAZI's with liberalism because , in reality, both abominations spent their powers of government in totally fascist, controlling paroxisms, just as the presnt coup bunch in the White House with their usurp=resident are doing now.

It's a pity that we have come to this. Would anyone equate the wise and wonderful socialist Senator of Vermont with the madmen of Soviet Russia, or the Nazi's?
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samiinh
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« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2007, 06:15:43 PM »

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It's a pity that we have come to this. Would anyone equate the wise and wonderful socialist Senator of Vermont with the madmen of Soviet Russia, or the Nazi's?

No.  Nor would we equate Mr. Sanders with the rightwing thugs now occupying the white house.
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weezo
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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2007, 08:20:41 PM »

Murder by Capitalists

For those who want a good read and a good example of how capitalism has murdered the innocent, I suggest "Death in the Haymarket" by James Green. Following the death of six policement who tried to break up a peaceful gathering of laborers (said to be peaceful by the mayor of Chicago who was there), seven men were murdered on the gallows even though there was absolutely no evidence linking them to the deaths, in fact, some were not even in the city at the time of the deaths. Yet, they were tried and convicted of "murder" on the basis that they had encouraged workers to stand up like "men" against their capitalists employers. And, they encouraged the workers to exercise their 2nd amendment rights to protect themselves from the corrupt police department and the hired thugs of their employers.

What think you? Will NGC read that book and realize that capitalists have "murdered" those who didn't agree with their ideas? It is a fairly new book, but should be on the book lists for classes on American History. It is an eye opener for me, who has known little about the labor movement.


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ngc321
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« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2007, 07:36:21 AM »

Anarchist communism advocates the abolition of the State and capitalism in favor of a horizontal network of voluntary associations, workers' councils and/or commons.

For those that say communism IS just an economic system. Usually the 'anarchist' IS left off when referring to communism. So when people refer to communism, yes it IS an economic system, but they are simply leaving off the Anarchist.

The poultry plant deaths in NC? Anyone that assumes that the doors were left locked so that people would be killed if an emergency came up IS just plain old nuts. Or should I say liberal with words like those for an arguement? Just plain demented. Can you say it was a completely unfortunate oversight that ended in a tragedy? I didn't think so. Since you liberals argue the way you do in favor of communism, why don't you go to cuba to live where you'll be truly happy? Why deprive yourself of the lifestyle you so rabidly defend?
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