Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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Question: Do you think the government should or should not spend the money that would be required for research and possible development of a defense system against nuclear missiles?
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Author Topic: National Security  (Read 9573 times)
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #1425 on: March 14, 2008, 10:35:19 AM »

Now that the USA has spent almost 4,000 lives and $3B in treasure in Iraq, does anyone here feel safer than they did on 9/10?

Just thought I would ask.

Feel about the same threat level from Islamist crazies as ever, i.e. none at all FAPP. But I feel vastly more threatened by USGov than ever before.

Oh... that $3 bliion is actually $3 trillion, cap. Factor of a thousand... no big deal.

Fed "injects" $200b into the markets and the Dow posts the biggest gain in 5 years... just think what ten times that amount might have done! A dollar might still be worth something.

Dare I ask:

How do you feel threatened by the U.S,. government?

The FBI has increasingly used administrative orders to obtain the personal records of U.S. citizens rather than foreigners implicated in terrorism or counterintelligence investigations, and at least once it relied on such orders to obtain records that a special intelligence-gathering court had deemed protected by the First Amendment, according to two government audits released yesterday.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/13/AR2008031302277.html?hpid=moreheadlines


This seems to be what concerns many of us--the blatant ignoring of the U.S. Constitution.
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #1426 on: March 14, 2008, 10:38:19 AM »

http://www.wingtv.net/911evil.html

Wow this just about tells it all!



Many patriots, who rightly dismiss the impossible official 9-11 explanation as a mere conspiracy theory, alas, are convinced that the real 9-11 plot was hatched with the selection or election of George W. Bush in 2000. In reality, writes Thorn, it is an integral part of a Zionist cluster of conspiracies going back at least to the 1960s, and Bush is merely a puppet playing his small part in the overall scheme.

In one gem from the book, the authors point out that a series of power-downs occurred in the WTC towers on the weekend prior to 9-11. With the electricity knocked out, the security cameras, electric locks and other security devices were disabled. This means an ideal opportunity existed for agents to go through the buildings, planting bombs. Thorn says the evidence for this comes from the statements of Scott Forbes, a computer analyst for WTC occupant Fiduciary Trust.


Find out how Israel-firsters were actually responsible for the Pentagon’s “stand-down.”
• Who infiltrated Air Force One and threatened President Bush on the morning of September 11, 2001 with electronic capabilities even more sophisticated than that of the NSA?

• Identity of the true 9-11 mastermind revealed with extensive, highly-incriminating documentation.

• Who is George Bush’s real guru (it’s not Karl Rove), and where do his loyalties lie?

• Learn which entities operate behind-the-scenes at the Pentagon and are never mentioned by the mainstream media (and for that matter, the alternative media as well).

• What role did the notorious “Prince of Darkness” Richard Perle play in 9-11?

• Ascertain for yourself how Israeli-owned companies controlled corporate and government phone banks, wiretapping, instant messaging, computer equipment, and backdoors to their firewalls.

• Who covered-up the massive spy operations which took place in America before (and after) 9-11?

• Check out how every major player in the sale of the WTC complex to Larry Silverstein was Jewish, including the CEO, mortgage holder, owner, and negotiator.

• Discover how the 9-11 terrorist attacks lead all the way to Rothschild Inc., and how they've used it to protect their “number one priority.”

• Revealed: a cabal of alternative media figures who deliberately use obfuscation, deceit, and misdirection to maintain a well-crafted Zionist Protection Racket.

• Who was truly behind the post 9-11 staged anthrax scare?

• Ariel Sharon and Benjamin Netanyahu: key players in the 9-11 saga (and other terror-related events) whose role has been ignored by the controlled corporate press.

• A plethora of damning evidence against “The Dancing Israelis,” as well as their direct link to Michael Chertoff.

• Numerous cover-ups fully exposed in regard to suspicious activity, terrorist ties, and foreknowledge by a variety of Israeli companies.

• Israel’s passport spy scandals, the military sale of classified weaponry to China, and direct espionage against the United States.

• Foreign military men speak out about 9-11 being Israeli-engineered.

• What firm was contracted to perform security at each airport terminal involved in the 9-11, and the fact that many of their former workers were employed by the IDF and Shin Bet.

• The architect for our current perpetual war (i.e. the “Clash of Civilizations”) and his New World Order anti-Arab leanings.

• Exposed: how Nazi symbolism has been very deceptively used to divert attention away from the real culprits behind 9-11 and our multiple wars in multiple theaters.

• Read how Israeli Mossad operatives trailed fall-guy Arabs across several nations and states to set them up as the new “Lee Harvey Oswalds.”

• What did Osama bin Laden really say about 9-11 and who controls the United States government?

• Finally, a crescendo of evidence proving that 9-11 was not only an inside job executed by Zionist-loyal neo-cons within the U.S. government, but also an outside job leading directly to the nation of Israel.








A not-so-cleverly diguised anti-Semetic rant.

The theory that the Jews caused 9/11 appeared within a fews days of 9/11, and has been fostered by the pro-Arab, pro-Muslim factions, as well as Neo-Nazis and ultra-right wingers here in America.
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kidcarter8
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« Reply #1427 on: March 14, 2008, 10:39:20 AM »

And you are worrying about it snowballing?

Certainly you aren't concerned the U.S. will get hold of YOUR records and prosecute you, even inconvenience you in any way.

If having my records looked over is the price to pay for their use of this tactic on undesirables..................................

Look away.
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #1428 on: March 14, 2008, 10:50:52 AM »

Quote
How do you feel threatened by the U.S,. government?

See above, for starters. Wiretaps, resources wasted on an exponentially expanding realm of unauthorized federal "authority... TSA for another - bunches of moron/thugs performing a useless task and hugely incoveniencing everyone who chooses to fly. I could go on and on, but I feel like I'd just be feeding a troll.

"If having my records looked over is the price to pay for their use of this tactic on undesirables.................................."

Then you're exactly the type that Jefferson and Flanklin allude to in my sig line. You certainly don't deserve any freedom, and won't get any security either by invoking Bush's gestapo tactics.
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"Those who would give up their freedom for security will have none and deserve neither."
- Franklin (and Jefferson)
NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #1429 on: March 14, 2008, 10:57:23 AM »

Thre most immediate "threat" is posed not directly by USGov, but by the destruction of our once-much-more-vital economy. Go spending trillions of dollars on efforts that benefit the citizens of the US not in the least, and you're draining the lifeblood out of this country. Glad my advisors have gotten me into gold and foreign investments - I'd rather invest here, but Bush's policies have made that a mostly losing proposition. I'm only one among millions of individuals whos advisors have correctly ascertained that this country has been bankrupted by the Bush administration and therefore invest overseas. That, of course, exacerbates the problem at home but we all have to do what we have to do to survive and provide for our families.
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"Those who would give up their freedom for security will have none and deserve neither."
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kidcarter8
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« Reply #1430 on: March 14, 2008, 10:58:57 AM »

Quote
How do you feel threatened by the U.S,. government?

See above, for starters. Wiretaps, resources wasted on an exponentially expanding realm of unauthorized federal "authority... TSA for another - bunches of moron/thugs performing a useless task and hugely incoveniencing everyone who chooses to fly. I could go on and on, but I feel like I'd just be feeding a troll.

"If having my records looked over is the price to pay for their use of this tactic on undesirables.................................."

Then you're exactly the type that Jefferson and Flanklin allude to in my sig line. You certainly don't deserve any freedom, and won't get any security either by invoking Bush's gestapo tactics.

I asked how you feel threatened.

You gave an abusive rant.

Typical.

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yankguy
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« Reply #1431 on: March 14, 2008, 11:05:38 AM »

While I agree with the sentiments expressed in your sig line and your posts, Noneoftheabove, your quote of Franklin is not  necessarily a direct quote.    The quote has also been reported as "they who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security," which, I think, means something a little different.

For the record, though, I think  that the "I've done nothing wrong, so I have nothing to fear from a little government snooping," line of thinking is the most dangerous sentiment of all.

 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 11:13:52 AM by yankguy » Logged

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MrUtley3
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« Reply #1432 on: March 14, 2008, 11:07:01 AM »

And you are worrying about it snowballing?

Certainly you aren't concerned the U.S. will get hold of YOUR records and prosecute you, even inconvenience you in any way.

If having my records looked over is the price to pay for their use of this tactic on undesirables..................................

Look away.

I have to disagree with you (hard to believe, isn't it?) for a couple of reasons.

First, the federal government knows way too much about me to begin with.

Second, once the government gets a toe-hold in some area, it tends to grow to a foothold, then a path, and this particularly path leads to the destruction of what America is supposed to be about.

I am very surprised that you, a self-professed conservative, would support any government intervention that circumvents or denies you your rights.

If  having your records read is about catching "undesirables", and we know that the feds are using them not for that purpose, but to go after potential political enemies, then the feds are emulating Chinese government's tactics.

And in fact, they are. (read the article, kid).

Thus, in order to avoid the need for our own future Tienemen Square, we have to stand and stop further destruction of our rights as free men and women living as the Founding Fathers intended.


You should be OUTRAGED, but instead you bleat like a sheep led to slaughter.
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #1433 on: March 14, 2008, 11:09:14 AM »

If  having your records read is about catching "undesirables", and we know that the feds are using them not for that purpose, but to go after potential political enemies, then the feds are emulating Chinese government's tactics.

I meant to say, "If  having your records read is about catching "undesirables", and we know that the feds are using them not strictly for that purpose, but to go after potential political enemies, then the feds are emulating Chinese government's tactics.
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #1434 on: March 14, 2008, 11:10:47 AM »

Quote
I asked how you feel threatened.

And I told you. What part didn't you understand?

Quote
You gave an abusive rant.

Feeling "abused" by others' expressions of their own feelings and opinions is a sign of psychosis. You might need some help.
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« Reply #1435 on: March 14, 2008, 11:15:26 AM »

Quote
The quote has also been reported as "they who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security,"

Yes. My sigline is a kluge, and an interpretation of what J&F were talking about. The version you quote is a bit too ambiguous in today's English for my taste. But I'd not rule out anyone else's interpretation of what either Jefferson or Franklin meant. The version in my sig line is... well... my sig line. It's not an appeal to authority, it's what I mean, but I don't feel right posting it without some attribution for the thought.
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #1436 on: March 14, 2008, 11:19:14 AM »

Quote
You [kid] should be OUTRAGED, but instead you bleat like a sheep led to slaughter.

That's pretty much how I see him too. But kid will, of course, see your saying so and my agreement as "abuse".

Come to think of it, though, maybe he doesn't see abuse as a bad thing - seems to welcome it from "certain" sources.
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #1437 on: March 14, 2008, 11:23:20 AM »

Quote
You [kid] should be OUTRAGED, but instead you bleat like a sheep led to slaughter.

That's pretty much how I see him too. But kid will, of course, see your saying so and my agreement as "abuse".

Come to think of it, though, maybe he doesn't see abuse as a bad thing - seems to welcome it from "certain" sources.


Uh, dude, don't speak for kid. He can do that on his own.

You are the champion of freedom of speech, remember?

As an aside: What you may not know is that Kid and I have a long history of posting to each other from opposite sides of the fence. I have no quarrel with kid as a person. Our quarrels extend from loyalties to different tribes---Dems and GOP---Phillies & Mets.

So when I say he should be "OUTRAGED", I'm speaking to his point of view, not him personally.

Hope this helps.

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kidcarter8
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« Reply #1438 on: March 14, 2008, 11:33:24 AM »




You should be OUTRAGED, but instead you bleat like a sheep led to slaughter.


No - I am not outraged - and I do GET outraged at certain things, sometimes too quickly  Smiley

I still feel "free" living in this country - hope I feel the same way if a Clinton win moves me to Canada or the U.K. -

I am a proud, administration supporting American (I supported the Clinton WH as well, BTW).  If I start reading about ATROCITIES committed by my government, where citizens are PUT OUT, not just hyped up on theoretical what-ifs........ I may change my tune.

Next.
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #1439 on: March 14, 2008, 11:35:59 AM »

Quote
don't speak for kid. He can do that on his own.

Sorry, mea culpa - I certainly should have qualified that as my prediction based on his previous posts, not as kid's actual response.

I too have no quarrel with the kid - in fact I look forward to him schooling me on the facts of baseball life, which I suspect he's much more versed in than I am.
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"Those who would give up their freedom for security will have none and deserve neither."
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