Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
January 19, 2018, 02:46:15 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: As you may have noticed, this is a very old backup, I'm still working through restoring the site.  Don't be surprised if you post and it all goes missing....
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Poll
Question: Do you think the government should or should not spend the money that would be required for research and possible development of a defense system against nuclear missiles?
Should spend the money
Should not spend the money
Unsure

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 98
  Print  
Author Topic: National Security  (Read 8450 times)
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2007, 07:09:23 PM »

It is the troops over in Iraq, who have been coming back and calling for an end to the war, who know that the war is not "winnable". Why do we have to "win"? Wasn't it enough to pull down Hussein? Why not let the Iraqis set up their OWN government? Why do we have to dictate what form they choose? Who was here after the Revolutionary War, or even the Civil War, to tell US how to set up our next form of government? If we could do it for ourselves, what right do we have to assume that the Iraqis can't do if for themselves?
Logged
samiinh
Guest

« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2007, 07:36:09 PM »

It is the troops over in Iraq, who have been coming back and calling for an end to the war, who know that the war is not "winnable". Why do we have to "win"? Wasn't it enough to pull down Hussein? Why not let the Iraqis set up their OWN government? Why do we have to dictate what form they choose? Who was here after the Revolutionary War, or even the Civil War, to tell US how to set up our next form of government? If we could do it for ourselves, what right do we have to assume that the Iraqis can't do if for themselves?


The war in Iraq is really about OIL.  Once the Iraqis pass the bill granting the western oil companies access to the Iraqi OIL and 75% of the profits thereof, the war will end.
Logged
prairiepop
Guest

« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2007, 09:16:42 PM »

Every time I hear the word "win" fall from the iron jowls of the gopgoomers, I'm always tempted to holler, "Win WHAT, you poltroons...win WHAT?"  The wars with the Germans and the Japanese and even the North Koreans had uniformed military on both sides representing countries...COUNTRIES.  With leaders [one each/each], with unified countrymen [each/each] backing them.  Now we're asked to support a 'war' against alley-fighters, religious whackos, factions within the religion fighting each other and over it all, a shadowy 6'6" kidney patient in a do-rag probably living in Switzerland and laughing his ass off.  Win WHAT and against WHOM...and most important of all, for WHY.  Not one word from Mister Bush about this mess has clarified any of the WHAT, WHO or WHY...and the mindless babble from his supporters just adds more shame to the mixture.  All those beautiful kids of ours getting killed...and for WHAT.   
Logged
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2007, 10:19:06 PM »

Prairiepop,

Excellent post! At first we were there to find WMDs that Hussein was going to terrorize us with. We found out he wasn't making any. Then we were going to topple him. We did, even pulled down his statue in the square. Then we were going to find him. We did. Then we were going to bring him to justice. We did. Then we were going to make sure he received his punishment. We saw him hanged. Now, what are we doing there? waiting for people who hate each other to start loving each other?
Logged
samiinh
Guest

« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2007, 07:17:20 AM »

Every time I hear the word "win" fall from the iron jowls of the gopgoomers, I'm always tempted to holler, "Win WHAT, you poltroons...win WHAT?"  The wars with the Germans and the Japanese and even the North Koreans had uniformed military on both sides representing countries...COUNTRIES.  With leaders [one each/each], with unified countrymen [each/each] backing them.  Now we're asked to support a 'war' against alley-fighters, religious whackos, factions within the religion fighting each other and over it all, a shadowy 6'6" kidney patient in a do-rag probably living in Switzerland and laughing his ass off.  Win WHAT and against WHOM...and most important of all, for WHY.  Not one word from Mister Bush about this mess has clarified any of the WHAT, WHO or WHY...and the mindless babble from his supporters just adds more shame to the mixture.  All those beautiful kids of ours getting killed...and for WHAT.   

Though none of the goopers will say it, but IMHO, it is all about the OIL.  And of course, it is also about making money for the war machine manufacturers and Bush buddies.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 07:19:32 AM by samiinh » Logged
weezo
Poll Manager
Superhero Member
****
Posts: 3431


Resue when he was a cute little kitten


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2007, 08:31:05 AM »

Sami,

I tend to agree with you that it is about OIL. But, as I have pointed out, we really do not NEED the foreign oil. We have enough oil reserves of our own to provide our needs until we can convert to better fuels. I tend to think it is about political glory and, or course, the building of wealth from the manufacture of war machine goods. Why we NEED sophisticated weapon to fight a war against home-made bombs totally escapes me. Why we should even intervene in a war between two factions of a religion also eludes me. We have never directly intervened in the long-running dispute between catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland. Of course, Ireland has no OIL reserves. They are just people who want freedom from an oppressive overlord. We yawn.

Logged
samiinh
Guest

« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2007, 10:50:32 AM »

Sami,

I tend to agree with you that it is about OIL. But, as I have pointed out, we really do not NEED the foreign oil. We have enough oil reserves of our own to provide our needs until we can convert to better fuels. I tend to think it is about political glory and, or course, the building of wealth from the manufacture of war machine goods. Why we NEED sophisticated weapon to fight a war against home-made bombs totally escapes me. Why we should even intervene in a war between two factions of a religion also eludes me. We have never directly intervened in the long-running dispute between catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland. Of course, Ireland has no OIL reserves. They are just people who want freedom from an oppressive overlord. We yawn.



The OIL isn't for the US; it is for the US CORPORAtTIONS so that they can make more money.  The anti-missle defense system is a republican boondoogle IMHO.  Carlisle et al are getting rich building these systems that will never be used, even if they were to work.
Logged
prairiepop
Guest

« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2007, 03:30:58 PM »

Parsing about the real motivations behind the war in Eye Rack would have to include the cynical manipulation of a figurehead president who, by his own admission, isn't much of a reader...certainly not of history [current or past].  As front man for what my grandpop [a rugged individualist & cynical old coot] would have called the Vested Interests, no better patsy could ever have been found.  Flattering his cheerleader vanities, invoking the Bush Family Legend...he was encouraged all along the way into believing himself clad in the armor of Deciderness and put into play.  Good evidence abounds that Dubya is given summaries of summaries...all prepared by his spirit guides, and all clincher items to keep him pumped up.  His puzzled chimp expressions at the podium, his petulant insistence on the famous surge, his refusal to pay attention to the gentle remonstrances of the Iraq study group, his continued support of the hapless Al Gonzales and the deeply flawed Wolfowitz...these are all hallmarks of the functional illiterate that he is, and tribute indeed to his ironclad handlers. 

I truly believe that if Cheney's heart should implode, Bush would deflate like an old Macy's Parade float...  It's only the malevolent hot winds of opportunism and greed that are keeping him inflated.  Kucinich may be vertically challenged, but I think he's picked the right defendant.
Logged
samiinh
Guest

« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2007, 03:33:27 PM »

I, too, thought it was all about the oil (and, of course, the security and construction contracts), and still do for the most part from the POV of US business/gov't alliance.  However, after  some reading and seeing some of the documentaries about Islam in last week's tv series "America At A Crossroads" I truly do not believe it is all about oil from the POV of those whose countries sit atop said oil. 

Then there's Dubai, which has no oil, but is booming economically (and has a mostly secular society).

As with so much, the older I get, the more complex any given issue is and the more respect I have for those who deal with issues in thoughtful ways, including some of the participants here.   

I would agree with you that OIL is not the issue for those people living in Iraq at this time.  Survival is the issue.  Life is the issue.  Knowing where their next meal will come from is the issue.  Knowing that their children are safe is the issue.  Knowing that they might have a job is the issue.  I was just listening to NPR and a report about life in Iraq.  It is an unimaginable nightmare that fortunately most of us have never known.
Logged
kidcarter8
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 7826


View Profile Email

Ignore
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2007, 03:41:24 PM »

Every time I hear the word "win" fall from the iron jowls of the gopgoomers, I'm always tempted to holler, "Win WHAT, you poltroons...win WHAT?"  The wars with the Germans and the Japanese and even the North Koreans had uniformed military on both sides representing countries...COUNTRIES.  With leaders [one each/each], with unified countrymen [each/each] backing them.  Now we're asked to support a 'war' against alley-fighters, religious whackos, factions within the religion fighting each other and over it all, a shadowy 6'6" kidney patient in a do-rag probably living in Switzerland and laughing his ass off.  Win WHAT and against WHOM...and most important of all, for WHY.  Not one word from Mister Bush about this mess has clarified any of the WHAT, WHO or WHY...and the mindless babble from his supporters just adds more shame to the mixture.  All those beautiful kids of ours getting killed...and for WHAT.   

I think you are absolutely on the mark.  We should not fight any group that refuses to wera uniforms.
Logged
samiinh
Guest

« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2007, 03:50:47 PM »

Every time I hear the word "win" fall from the iron jowls of the gopgoomers, I'm always tempted to holler, "Win WHAT, you poltroons...win WHAT?"  The wars with the Germans and the Japanese and even the North Koreans had uniformed military on both sides representing countries...COUNTRIES.  With leaders [one each/each], with unified countrymen [each/each] backing them.  Now we're asked to support a 'war' against alley-fighters, religious whackos, factions within the religion fighting each other and over it all, a shadowy 6'6" kidney patient in a do-rag probably living in Switzerland and laughing his ass off.  Win WHAT and against WHOM...and most important of all, for WHY.  Not one word from Mister Bush about this mess has clarified any of the WHAT, WHO or WHY...and the mindless babble from his supporters just adds more shame to the mixture.  All those beautiful kids of ours getting killed...and for WHAT.   

I think you are absolutely on the mark.  We should not fight any group that refuses to wera uniforms.

Speaking of uniforms, it is also known that the Iraqi military and the Iraqi police wear their uniforms by day, and their insurgent clothes at night. How do you fight a war like that?  The UN said today that the "surge" has done little.  Iraqis are dying at the same rates they were before the f--king surge, and as of yesterday, I believe this month could be a record on American deaths as well.
Logged
liquidsilver
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 2060


Herpes, the gift that keeps on giving.


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2007, 03:52:19 PM »

The Iraqis need to be educated to use smear campaigns not guns
Logged

"I hate listening to peoples dreams. It's like flipping through a stack of photographs. If I'm not in any of them and nobody's having sex, I just don't care."
kidcarter8
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 7826


View Profile Email

Ignore
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2007, 04:08:58 PM »

Every time I hear the word "win" fall from the iron jowls of the gopgoomers, I'm always tempted to holler, "Win WHAT, you poltroons...win WHAT?"  The wars with the Germans and the Japanese and even the North Koreans had uniformed military on both sides representing countries...COUNTRIES.  With leaders [one each/each], with unified countrymen [each/each] backing them.  Now we're asked to support a 'war' against alley-fighters, religious whackos, factions within the religion fighting each other and over it all, a shadowy 6'6" kidney patient in a do-rag probably living in Switzerland and laughing his ass off.  Win WHAT and against WHOM...and most important of all, for WHY.  Not one word from Mister Bush about this mess has clarified any of the WHAT, WHO or WHY...and the mindless babble from his supporters just adds more shame to the mixture.  All those beautiful kids of ours getting killed...and for WHAT.   

"..the surge has done little..."

depends on how you count
I think you are absolutely on the mark.  We should not fight any group that refuses to wera uniforms.

Speaking of uniforms, it is also known that the Iraqi military and the Iraqi police wear their uniforms by day, and their insurgent clothes at night. How do you fight a war like that?  The UN said today that the "surge" has done little.  Iraqis are dying at the same rates they were before the f--king surge, and as of yesterday, I believe this month could be a record on American deaths as well.
Logged
samiinh
Guest

« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2007, 05:09:38 PM »

The Iraqis need to be educated to use smear campaigns not guns

Bush should send Karl to Iraq to teach them these skills.
Logged
samiinh
Guest

« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2007, 05:18:09 PM »

https://secure.aclu.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=habeas_petition&s_site=email

If you are concerned about the fact that Habeas Corpus no longer exists in our legal system, please sign the petition linked above.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 98
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!