Escape from Elba
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Question: Do you support or oppose the creation of a guest worker program that would allow illegal immigrants to register for temporary legal status and employment?
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Author Topic: Immigration  (Read 19601 times)
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thecap0
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« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2007, 04:26:54 PM »

chak,

As usual, Cap, you support an action that sounds "good" in theory but in practice would result in the US being swamped by impoverished Third Worlders.

As usual, you make grand statements without a scintilla of proof to support your POV.

How many potential Einsteins, Irving Berlins, or John Philip Sousas will you exclude.  Remember that all of them were immigrants who could barely speak the English language.

The fact is simply that, compared to other eras in the USA, the foreign-born population is lower.

As Casey Stengel used to say, "You could look it up."
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Chakotay
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« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2007, 05:35:38 PM »

This page from the US Census Bureau's website points out that 10% of our population in 2000 was foreign-born. The highest level was 15%, but that was when the US population was far smaller. At something over 300 million, 10% is more people than 15% of perhaps 100M people.

Of the foreign-born, 39% have come here just since 1990, and another 28% just since 1980-1990. What this means is that immigrants are becoming a larger and larger portion of our population, are coming in greater numbers, and that's just the ones that participated in the census. The numbers have grown even larger since 2000.

I really can't see most of the people who come here to pick oranges or bus tables as being in the Einstein, Berlin, or Sousa category. Most illegals, AFAIK, have little education. Certainly Einstein was well-educated, and I have never heard of Berlin or Sousa being uneducated. If we could bring in educated people who can contribute to our country, such as nurses, doctors, physicists, etc., it might be beneficial to us. The uneducated have little to contribute other than physical labor and their being here is primarily of benefit to themselves...and the employers who don't want to pay a living wage.

www.census.gov/population/pop-profile/2000/chap17.pdf




chak,

How many potential Einsteins, Irving Berlins, or John Philip Sousas will you exclude.  Remember that all of them were immigrants who could barely speak the English language.

The fact is simply that, compared to other eras in the USA, the foreign-born population is lower.

As Casey Stengel used to say, "You could look it up."
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weezo
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« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2007, 05:49:27 PM »

There have been times when immigration was high - at the time of the potato famine in Ireland for example.

At first, the Irish were jobless and undesirable. Many Americans, themselves descended from immigrants, wanted them anywhere but where they were. They resented the jobs they "took" from Americans and at lower wages. But, it turns out that the Irish were not the scourge they were once thought to be. They worked their way up the ladder, became educated more and more by each generation, and are now accepted as full Americans. Give the Mexican's a chance! Everyone starts at the bottom even those born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

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Chakotay
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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2007, 05:54:22 PM »

I'm not certain just how "skilled" a trade steel-fitting is, but if it is a highly skilled trade, then $20 an hour doesn't seem like such big bucks. OTOH, if the area where he lives has few people trained in this trade, they may simply have no resident population to draw from. He might consider offering apprenticeship programs to train less-skilled workers to do the job. If there really are not enough skilled workers among Americans, he probably won't find them among the uneducated illegals either.

Some version of "guest" worker program might be doable after the borders are secured, but first the employers would have to be able to prove that they had tried to find Americans to do the work and that their wages were at a level that Americans could live on. 

chak, go back and read what I linked.

"He told members of the Arizona House Government Committee last month that he pays $20 an hour for steel fitters, which is 30 percent more today than he paid six months ago. To fill orders, he regularly has to pay overtime."

"My company is doing everything possible from recruitment and incentives to training and automation, but it is not enough," he told the committee. "No matter what we do, there are not enough workers. I've even looked at Mexican maquiladoras."

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samiinh
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2007, 06:20:25 PM »

There have been times when immigration was high - at the time of the potato famine in Ireland for example.

At first, the Irish were jobless and undesirable. Many Americans, themselves descended from immigrants, wanted them anywhere but where they were. They resented the jobs they "took" from Americans and at lower wages. But, it turns out that the Irish were not the scourge they were once thought to be. They worked their way up the ladder, became educated more and more by each generation, and are now accepted as full Americans. Give the Mexican's a chance! Everyone starts at the bottom even those born with a silver spoon in their mouth.



I'm not sure about that.  George Bush never saw the bottom.
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weezo
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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2007, 08:28:57 PM »

His mother (or his nanny) saw his "bottom", and it stunk!
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thecap0
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« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2007, 09:27:51 PM »

chak,
I really can't see most of the people who come here to pick oranges or bus tables as being in the Einstein, Berlin, or Sousa category.
We will never know until they arrive.  Maybe you are willing to take the chance that the excludeds will never produce another of these; I am not.
Most illegals, AFAIK, have little education. Certainly Einstein was well-educated, and I have never heard of Berlin or Sousa being uneducated.
We will never know.  Sousa and Berlin spoke no English until they arrived.  Both spoke it poorly until the day they died.  I have heard recordings of both.
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srnich
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« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2007, 09:36:33 AM »

I'm not certain just how "skilled" a trade steel-fitting is, but if it is a highly skilled trade, then $20 an hour doesn't seem like such big bucks. OTOH, if the area where he lives has few people trained in this trade, they may simply have no resident population to draw from. He might consider offering apprenticeship programs to train less-skilled workers to do the job. If there really are not enough skilled workers among Americans, he probably won't find them among the uneducated illegals either.

Some version of "guest" worker program might be doable after the borders are secured, but first the employers would have to be able to prove that they had tried to find Americans to do the work and that their wages were at a level that Americans could live on. 

Gosh you are sheltered. The employer is in a metro area of 2+ million in the Phx area, and that is but one of many cities in the country.

The steel trade is no different than the construction trades where thousands of immigrants are already employed. Even residential and commercial builders have trouble finding enough help.

Where've you been man?
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liquidsilver
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« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2007, 10:06:47 AM »

I don't know about Einsteins, Berlins, or Sousas but I do know from personal experience that immigrants tend to be harder working and more productive than American born and bred.  Especially when you compare them to the new crop from Generation Y -- who from my experience are among the laziest, self-serving employees yet.

If you believe in capitalism and a free market, I think it is harmful to American business to force them to hire anything but the best, most productive workers - even if those workers happen to be immigrants
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Chakotay
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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2007, 10:28:42 AM »

Well, he's seen it now...the bottom of the opinion polls, at least!


There have been times when immigration was high - at the time of the potato famine in Ireland for example.

 Everyone starts at the bottom even those born with a silver spoon in their mouth.



I'm not sure about that.  George Bush never saw the bottom.
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samiinh
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« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2007, 10:52:51 AM »

Well, he's seen it now...the bottom of the opinion polls, at least!


There have been times when immigration was high - at the time of the potato famine in Ireland for example.

 Everyone starts at the bottom even those born with a silver spoon in their mouth.



And I suppose he saw the bottom of an empty coke straw and a liquor bottle.


I'm not sure about that.  George Bush never saw the bottom.
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Chakotay
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« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2007, 10:54:28 AM »

There are several important differences between the situation with the Irish and the current situation with Mexico and other Latin countries:
1. The Irish had to travel across an ocean to get here, which probably kept a significant percentage from making the trip due to lack of money for the passage. Mexicans have only to step across our border and dodge the Border Patrol.
2. The numbers involved aren't even close: there are far more Mexicans here than there ever were Irish immigrants. Because of our ridiculously porous border, the numbers increase every day.
3. At least the Irish spoke English (even with a brogue) and weren't trying to make this country "bilingual" in Gaelic! They didn't demand that their kids be taught in Gaelic or that ballots be printed in Gaelic because they couldn't be bothered to learn English.
4. Just because the Irish, and other groups, have assimilated in the past doesn't mean that Mexicans and other Latins will do so. They are constantly pressuring schools for bilingual education and special treatment for themselves as "minorities". There is a lot of resistance to learning English.

I recommend that anyone who doubts the resistance to English read a new book, "The Power of Business En Espanol" by Jose Cancela, 2007. In it he proudly comments that 50% of Hispanics speak Spanish primarily; 25% are bilingual; 25% are primarily English-speakers. He goes on to state that one big reason for the continuing increase in Spanish speakers is the continuing arrival of new Spanish-speaking immigrants. Another is the Latino "tradition" of speaking Spanish. The growing Spanish media is also an influence. The very existence of Spanish media requires a continuing flow of Spanish speakers, so they emphasize it all they can. As Cancela puts it: "We hear English, but we feel Spanish."

IMO, there is little relevant comparison to be made between the Irish and other previous immigrant groups and the current inundation of Latino immigrants, both legal and illegal.      

There have been times when immigration was high - at the time of the potato famine in Ireland for example.

At first, the Irish were jobless and undesirable. Many Americans, themselves descended from immigrants, wanted them anywhere but where they were. They resented the jobs they "took" from Americans and at lower wages. But, it turns out that the Irish were not the scourge they were once thought to be. They worked their way up the ladder, became educated more and more by each generation, and are now accepted as full Americans. Give the Mexican's a chance! Everyone starts at the bottom even those born with a silver spoon in their mouth.


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Chakotay
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« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2007, 11:06:10 AM »

I am not willing to take the chance that allowing open borders (i.e., unlimited immigration) would result in our population growing at such a pace that our society will disintegrate into a Balkanized setting of enclaves and blocs based on race, ethnicity and language. And then there is the effect such overpopulation will have on the environment, wildlife, open spaces, water supplies, pollution, etc. I am more concerned about that possibility than that we might possibly miss another song writer. Einstein had actually done his most productive work before he came to America. Your example would have us admit millions, even tens of millions, in the hope that one out of that horde might actually do something worthwhile.

BTW, I have also heard interviews with Berlin, and although he spoke with an accent (big surprise) he was understandable. Can't say about Sousa. 



chak,
I really can't see most of the people who come here to pick oranges or bus tables as being in the Einstein, Berlin, or Sousa category.
We will never know until they arrive.  Maybe you are willing to take the chance that the excludeds will never produce another of these; I am not.
Most illegals, AFAIK, have little education. Certainly Einstein was well-educated, and I have never heard of Berlin or Sousa being uneducated.
We will never know.  Sousa and Berlin spoke no English until they arrived.  Both spoke it poorly until the day they died.  I have heard recordings of both.
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Chakotay
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« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2007, 11:16:24 AM »

Immigrants, especially the illegal ones, have little choice but to be hard-working. Many, even those who are well-educated, such as doctors and pharmacists, are unable to get jobs in their professions without a period of intensive training in American procedures, etc. Or they have language problems. At any rate, they must often take whatever job they can get, which is often low-paying, and they may have to work two jobs or more to feed their families.

Frankly, I have noticed that legal immigrants rather quickly adapt to American "standards" once they have secured a job at a level that permits them to do so. This proves only that immigrants are pretty much like everyone else: when possible, some will slough off and others will buzz around like worker bees no matter what else happens.

The Gen Y workers have been coddled and pampered by their parents. Eventually they (most of them anyway) will learn that the "real world" isn't really concerned about their "self esteem" and isn't inclined to redesign itself for their benefit. For many, it will be a bumpy ride. 

I am not that enthusiastic about "free markets". I would protect American workers rather than import cheap labor to displace them.

I don't know about Einsteins, Berlins, or Sousas but I do know from personal experience that immigrants tend to be harder working and more productive than American born and bred.  Especially when you compare them to the new crop from Generation Y -- who from my experience are among the laziest, self-serving employees yet.

If you believe in capitalism and a free market, I think it is harmful to American business to force them to hire anything but the best, most productive workers - even if those workers happen to be immigrants
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thecap0
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« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2007, 11:36:02 AM »

chak,
There are several important differences between the situation with the Irish and the current situation with Mexico and other Latin countries:
1. The Irish had to travel across an ocean to get here, which probably kept a significant percentage from making the trip due to lack of money for the passage. Mexicans have only to step across our border and dodge the Border Patrol.
2. The numbers involved aren't even close: there are far more Mexicans here than there ever were Irish immigrants. Because of our ridiculously porous border, the numbers increase every day.
3. At least the Irish spoke English (even with a brogue) and weren't trying to make this country "bilingual" in Gaelic! They didn't demand that their kids be taught in Gaelic or that ballots be printed in Gaelic because they couldn't be bothered to learn English.
4. Just because the Irish, and other groups, have assimilated in the past doesn't mean that Mexicans and other Latins will do so. They are constantly pressuring schools for bilingual education and special treatment for themselves as "minorities". There is a lot of resistance to learning English.I


Gee, I get a very different picture from reading the book you suggest.  My reading is that Spanish-speaking folks are here; they contribute to the economy in various significant ways, and that American business had better learn to market to the demographic or get left behind.

As to the above, it's a distinction without a diffference.  The Irish were hated for thier Irishness; just look at the Thomas Nast cartoons for proof, their Catholicism (parochial schools sponsored by the church were torched - read about Mariah Monk et. al.), and their numbers.

Nothing new here. It is a constant in American history that the second-to-last immigrant group hates the most recent arrivals with a passion that surpasses reaason.

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