Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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Question: Do you support or oppose the creation of a guest worker program that would allow illegal immigrants to register for temporary legal status and employment?
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Author Topic: Immigration  (Read 19603 times)
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #3780 on: June 16, 2008, 10:24:55 PM »

Hey, dangling dude, I did tell you what laws are bad laws, in addition to the immigration quotas. That was all I needed to do. Now you want to up the ante because I did as you asked. Well, silly fellow, I'm not agonna do it. If you want, you can google "bad laws" and get any number of opinions on how many there are.

As to New Jersey, it is an insult to itself often enough. I don't have to do more than state the facts, jack. Have you cleaned the mafia out of northern jersey yet? Prove it!



Again, you lack SPECIFICITY...you failed to name one SPECIFIC law that was "bad".

Do you know any immigration laws?

 

Let's put it this way, if you can't do better than this you should just concentrate on creating more coloring books and calling that education.

And as to Virginia, we won't discuss its numerous faults and its incestuous ways, as space here is limited.

 
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"That guy over there played with Ty Cobb," said Phillies bench coach Jimy Williams, pointing to Chase Utley. "He's been here before."  quoted in the Boston Globe
MrUtley3
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« Reply #3781 on: June 16, 2008, 10:28:17 PM »

And when you look up those laws that are so "bad", find the ones in other western nations to compare them with the US laws.

Get back to us in a few days.
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"That guy over there played with Ty Cobb," said Phillies bench coach Jimy Williams, pointing to Chase Utley. "He's been here before."  quoted in the Boston Globe
weezo
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« Reply #3782 on: June 16, 2008, 11:48:48 PM »

Sorry, Utley,

I'm not your student, and your dismissals are a cockeyed as your educational methods. Again, you didn't ask for SPECIFICITY. It's all public knowledge, and I'm not going to do the work for you to produce a lesson plan with. Do your own work.

And, as you should know, I have been working on poetry, not coloring books, recently. All I do for coloring is connect links to good sites to mine. Of course, I've done a few by taking clip art and taking out the color. But, I'm not an artist. The very popular coloring pages of the presidents are from the white house site. As often as they are used, and the ones that are chosen, are most interesting.

As for Virginia, this is by far, not the first time you've intimated that you know some nasties about Virginia. Fair game. Virginia has it's skeletons in closets. I've spoken to teachers who were threatened by fathers of students because the teacher spoke against incest - and a father's "right" to first prick!

Well, I need to fuss at Luee, and then find a picture of a louse to go with the Robert Burns poem.



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MrUtley3
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« Reply #3783 on: June 17, 2008, 07:11:20 AM »

If you're not willing to back up your argument with SPECIFICS, you have no argument.

In your case, that is par for the course.

It is the primary feature of your posts---aimless rambling, half-truths, lies, distortions, no facts, insults, and quick running for cover claiming others are bullies and your a special victim by virtue of being female.

It's a very tired, boring act.

You're not going to do any work, let alone for someone else, because it's all about you--24-7-365.

And besides, you don't do work--you just prattle on and on and on and on...

 

 
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"That guy over there played with Ty Cobb," said Phillies bench coach Jimy Williams, pointing to Chase Utley. "He's been here before."  quoted in the Boston Globe
thecap0
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« Reply #3784 on: June 17, 2008, 08:52:31 AM »

Utley,

. Let's consider what conclusion one should draw from your statement:

"Of course, if the border were to be eliminated, all the hassle and all the expense of enforcing irrational laws would disappear instantly."

What does eliminating the border mean? Annexing Mexico and Canada? That can't be, because they have borders, and probably wish to remains sovereign nations.

So, essentially, when you say "the border were to be eliminated", you advocate no border--which is to advocate no law.

Anarchy is a state of being in which no law applies.

Hence, you advocate anarchy.


Was MLK an anarchist because he favored eliminating unjust laws, and, in fact, broke them personally in order to highlight their injustice.

Did he ever speak in favor of a state of NO LAW?

Neither did I.

Whether or not he was, I am proud to be in his company in protesting laws that are unjust.

Thanks for the compliment.
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #3785 on: June 17, 2008, 10:55:55 AM »

Yeah, I'm sure that's what everyone is thinking now.

"Gosh, there goes another Martin Luther King, Jr."

The fact is you have failed to make a case for abandoning borders, but instead clothe yourself in your best activist clothes and declare your own superiority. Nice to see you have so much in common with George W. Bush, who essentially did the same thing when he wrapped himself in military garb and the flag and declared "Mission Accomplished".

He was wrong, and so are you, and you both look silly doing it.

But go ahead and "Stay the course".
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"That guy over there played with Ty Cobb," said Phillies bench coach Jimy Williams, pointing to Chase Utley. "He's been here before."  quoted in the Boston Globe
weezo
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« Reply #3786 on: June 17, 2008, 11:09:20 AM »

Hey, Utley,

I'm not the one who has to wear his stones emblazoned on his chest to prove his a man, you are!

I don't know what more specifics you want about the immigration laws than to say the the quotas are unjust. You just mill about claiming I haven't given you enough information because you're just to lazy to look it up for yourself.

Interesting how you want everyone to do your homework for you while you stand about in the front of the class being clueless. Also interesting how you sink to ad hominims, accusing folks of stuff they haven't said and don't mean at all, in order to cover your own ignorance.

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Chakotay
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« Reply #3787 on: June 17, 2008, 12:26:29 PM »

It depends on what a particular corporation produces, but there are many manufacturers who do business mostly with the wealthy elite (think of Mercedes-Benz, high-fashion designers, ultra-chic jewelers, etc.) and don't worry about bringing their products down to the level at which ordinary people could afford them. The international markets also favor the wealthy (obviously). Yes, businesses have to have customers, but they don't necessarily have to have customers in every income group.

Chak,

The corporations must have consumers to stay in business. No consumers, nothing to profit from. Dismissing the consumer-power of immigrants is handy for your argument, but the easiest to refute.

This nation tried the low pay, starving masses, and it resulted in a world-class depression in which lazy capitalists flew to their deaths from high windows. Perhaps today's generation of capitalists have forgotten they cannot fly, but it was the workers who survived the depression, rather than the wealthy. Lesson learned, I should hope.

Besides, if we have good labor laws and a strong minimum wage as the dems come back into power, the corporations can only sink so low on wages before they end up in the Graybar Hotel. And, if the new workers are all legal, there is nothing to hold over their heads to keep them from ratting when their paychecks shrink.

But, most of all, without consumers, business cannot do business. The long and the short of your fanatical rave.
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"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."---Scotty, "Star Trek III."
Chakotay
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« Reply #3788 on: June 17, 2008, 12:35:31 PM »

(Yawn.) Ancient history again. Sure, the descendants of many of these people will be assimilated and Americanized, just as previous generations of immigrants did. What is different now is that the immigrants (especially the illegal ones) don't have to cross an ocean to get here. The Rio Grande is often running so low that they barely have to get their ankles wet, or they cross the border in the urban areas or deserts and never get near water. Whatever. The fact is that with unlimited numbers of desperately poor people in Mexico and countries south of there, there is a serious potential for swamping our country with untold millions of uneducated, unskilled poor people who will be a severe strain and burden on our society. Sorry, but my vote is for taking care of our own people, no matter what their color is, not for throwing our doors open to additional millions of even poorer people.
chak,

It boggles my mind that anyone can believe that allowing tens of millions of poor, uneducated aliens to pour into this country would be in any way beneficial to American citizens, other than the corporate honchos who benefit from having cheap labor available. Maybe at some point in the future the children and grandchildren of these people will assimilate into American society, but since more and more of these people keep coming, there will be an unending lump of unassimilated foreigners who will never really become "Americanized".


Do you really know how 19th Century this post is?

It was first uttered by the Boston Brahmins about the Irish; then it was taken up by the Irish against the Chinese; later on, it became the rallying cry of those who would keep out the Italians, the Greeks, the Poles, the Japanese and the Jews.

The common theme has always been, "They're not like us and they never can be."

Do you realize how utterly dishonest it is, since every group has given far more than it has taken from the country.

The only difference is that today's newcomers are BROWN, and for you and those who "think" as you do, that makes all the difference.
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"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."---Scotty, "Star Trek III."
thecap0
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« Reply #3789 on: June 17, 2008, 12:42:08 PM »

Yeah, I'm sure that's what everyone is thinking now.

"Gosh, there goes another Martin Luther King, Jr."

The fact is you have failed to make a case for abandoning borders, but instead clothe yourself in your best activist clothes and declare your own superiority. Nice to see you have so much in common with George W. Bush, who essentially did the same thing when he wrapped himself in military garb and the flag and declared "Mission Accomplished".

He was wrong, and so are you, and you both look silly doing it.

But go ahead and "Stay the course".

Nothing like a little goalpost shifting, is there?

You said I was advocating anarchy.

I proved the opposite by citing an example.

Game, set, and match to the cap!
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Chakotay
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« Reply #3790 on: June 17, 2008, 12:47:24 PM »

Just my .02 on "unjust laws": what is "unjust" about putting limits on immigration? The "quota" system needs to be revised to give preference to immigrants who speak English, have at least a high-school education, will not engage in "chain migration", etc. The "family reunification" use of immigration has been extremely overdone, with a resulting explosion in the foreign population but little increase in "Americanization" or assimilation. Our society is being balkanized into competing linguistic/ethnic groups in too many places. A reasonable amount of legal immigration is beneficial for the country; uncontrolled and unlimited, often illegal, immigration is not. We need to separate legal and illegal immigration from our national discussions: they are not the same thing.
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"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."---Scotty, "Star Trek III."
weezo
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« Reply #3791 on: June 17, 2008, 12:52:46 PM »

Yes, Cap, Utley is famous for moving goalposts!

First he questions if there are bad laws, so I mention a few. Then he wants me to give him "specifics" on the laws, as if they are hard to find. When I refuse, he tells me that I have to have "facts" to back up my assertions, although I have never seen him support a single one of his contentions with facts.

I think he is just jealous that teachers who seek to better the lives of their students instead of brow-beating them, are more successful than he will ever be. I think he is jealous that I've asked you and Josh to contribute to my web project, but didn't ask him because he is not the kind of teacher who would improve the site. I think he is more than a bit miffed when we don't swallow his corn liquor without questioning if it tainted in the making.
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thecap0
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« Reply #3792 on: June 17, 2008, 12:54:27 PM »

Just my .02 on "unjust laws": what is "unjust" about putting limits on immigration? The "quota" system needs to be revised to give preference to immigrants who speak English, have at least a high-school education, will not engage in "chain migration", etc. The "family reunification" use of immigration has been extremely overdone, with a resulting explosion in the foreign population but little increase in "Americanization" or assimilation. Our society is being balkanized into competing linguistic/ethnic groups in too many places. A reasonable amount of legal immigration is beneficial for the country; uncontrolled and unlimited, often illegal, immigration is not. We need to separate legal and illegal immigration from our national discussions: they are not the same thing.

Still channeling the 19th Century Know Nothings, we see.

If we only allowed English speakers into the country, we would have deprived ourselves of two of the greatest, most patriotic Americans who ever lived, Irving Berlin and John Philip Sousa.

Then again, neither of them were BROWN!

When will you finally own up to the fact that all your "arguments" eventually devolve into color?  Can't you at least be that honest with yourself?
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thecap0
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« Reply #3793 on: June 17, 2008, 12:58:15 PM »

chak,

The fact is that with unlimited numbers of desperately poor people in Mexico and countries south of there, there is a serious potential for swamping our country with untold millions of uneducated, unskilled poor people who will be a severe strain and burden on our society.

Why don't you take your little hammer and your little chisel and hack Emma Lazarus's words right of the Lady in the Harbor.

Seems to me that the people you denigrate are precisely the ones she welcomes.

Then again, we all know that Chakman knows more than the Lady.
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weezo
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« Reply #3794 on: June 17, 2008, 01:02:30 PM »

You name two greats, and I recently read the life story of another, Albert Einstein who moved here just ahead of Hitler's purge of Jewish scientists, so that he could refine and polish his still-standing theory of the time-space continuum. It was also Einstein who warned of the potential danger in splitting the atom and the catastropic consequences of detonating an atomic bomb. He did not come here speaking English, and preferred to write in German to his dying days.

And, on the lighter side, their is the governator of California who still does not speak good English.

No, language is not a consideration for immigration. Willingness to work, to participate in the community, and to learn the ropes of what may be a very different political system. According to folks who live near them, one of the problems with the recent Russian immigrants, is that they arrive with their distrust of the police intact, making it difficult to separate out the lawbreakers in their communities.
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