Escape from Elba
Exiles of the New York Times
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Question: Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the situation with Iraq?
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Author Topic: Iraq in Transition  (Read 1696 times)
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Donotremove
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« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2007, 02:23:27 PM »

No outsider is going to get anywhere dealing with Iraq until they accept the fact the Iraq is NOT a country.  The people occupying the area now known as Iraq are tribes that are comfortable with warlords and militias.  And, above all, these people are Muslims, BUT NOT OF THE SAME SECT.  And none of the sects mix.  Period.  Except when a warlord of the caliber of Sadaam Hussein (like Stalin for the Russian satilite countries that became the USSR) comes along and uses mass force to produce quasi secularism (Turkey today but in the process of falling apart).  This use of force is what Al Quaeda(sp?) is using to herd Iraqis into Wahabiism.  And looking towards an Middle East Califate end game.  The big fly in the Iraq/Turkey ointment is the Kurds.

The middle East is run by powerful families.  I can't think so many hundreds of years in the future when any such thing as democratic government would arise anywhere in the area.  Even Israel is not democratic.  It only has the trappings of democracy.  Israel is a religious state.  India is not as democratic as it is religious.

The citizens of the U.S. are losing their democracy to religion as we speak.  Pause here for howls of denial.  If environmental contingencies do not kill us off first, the world is heading towards another dark ages.
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josh
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« Reply #76 on: August 27, 2007, 07:20:34 PM »

Even Israel is not democratic.  It only has the trappings of democracy.  Israel is a religious state.  India is not as democratic as it is religious.

Explain, please, why a country cannot be both officially religious and also a democracy (or at least a republic).
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« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2007, 03:13:00 AM »

Iran is the only self declared theocracy. Def.-1 : government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided
2 : a state governed by a theocracy
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/theocracy
That is why they still talk in terms of devils and wild animals, so frightening. Ignorant, superstitious, primitives  who are strictly guided by a 7th century viewpoint when life was cheap and there was danger lurking behind every palm tree. Amazingly they chose as a people to go back and give up their free will and intellect to the mangods.

They are a threat to modern civilization and will never accept multiculturism. Lovers of martyrdom, oh boy and Bush wants them as part of the government in Iraq! In his simplicity all religion is good and all taxes, specially to the wealthy, bad.
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« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2007, 11:02:39 AM »

Trappings, Josh, trappings.
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Dzimas
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« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2007, 11:17:57 AM »

Iran is not a theocracy.  The government by and large runs in a secular fashion, or at least did until Ahmadinejad came to power.  Iran has a parliament and a president, which make most of the decisions, but are ultimately answerable to the supreme leader, Ali Khamenei.  It seemed Khamenei pretty much took a back seat until things heated up over Afghanistan and later Iraq.  Understandably, Iran began to worry that the US might be seeking to broaden its authority in the region and things turned very conservative very quickly in Iran.  The conservatives took control of the assembly after the elections in early 2000, and  Ahmadinejad rode into power based on his conservative views.  Under the Khatami administration, Iran was moving in a more progressive direction. 
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Donotremove
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« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2007, 12:51:37 PM »

Trappings, Dzimas, trappings.
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josh
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« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2007, 03:04:16 PM »

Trappings, Josh, trappings.

As explanations go, that's a tad sparse for my tastes.

However, I'll bite.

So, England is neither a democracy nor a republic by your definition.
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« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2007, 05:36:30 PM »

Josh, I, so far, have been speaking about Middle Eastern countries with majority Muslim populations (and I include all countries with majority Muslim populations wherever they are.)  As for the UK and the European Union (and others as well) there hovers the corporate military industrial complex in collusion with helpless governments denying the people any real say over their lives.  Citizens exist everywhere, now, as units feeding the requirements of said corporate military industry, and other corporate needs with only the illusion of democracy.  Switzerland, Iceland, and Holland being examples of those countries which have escaped.

The tranference of wealth from the poor to the rich has always been with us, but the scale of the transfer with only the illusion of any legal or social redress looms large today (some of which is due to increased world populations).  And, the poor is anyone earning $50K US or less.

All of the above is only my opinion, and some of it belongs in other discussions.  My conclusions are drawn from long time reading on the subject.
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josh
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« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2007, 06:09:55 PM »

Josh, I, so far, have been speaking about Middle Eastern countries with majority Muslim populations (and I include all countries with majority Muslim populations wherever they are.)

If you had not included Israel, which does not have a majority Muslim population, then I would not have asked my question. It seemed to me that you made an overgeneralization, but I wanted to know what you meant, because you might not have.
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« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2007, 02:54:04 AM »

Josh, sorry.  Sometimes when I get on my high horse the wording of my mini essays gets muddled and unclear.  Sometimes I realize it and go back to do some editing.  Smiley

As for Israel, I do feel it is a theocracy disguised as a Democracy (all the bells and whistles--trappings).  Why?  I don't know.  Israel can be anything it wants.  And has.  One thing this Democratic veneer is going to spawn is an ultra conservative openly theocratic government when the old line Orthodox finally tip the population scales (and they are working at it, one baby at a time, thinking in the long term, willing to be patient.)

But, back to Iraq.  We have built (or are in the process of building) 14 military installations in that pitiful country.  It will take many bunker buster bombs to get us out of there no matter who is elected to congress or the White House in 2008.  The corporations (miltary and otherwise) won't allow it.  Talk about the swarming of the lobbyists.  It will make the efforts of the NRA look like earning a Boy Scout badge.

And now that France is talking about Iran being a bother, I am more convinced than ever that Bush is going to try something before we are rid of him.  I mean, the French president comes for a visit, then, later, back home, he comes out with his Iran statement. Hmm . . .
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« Reply #85 on: August 29, 2007, 03:04:16 AM »

"The corporations (miltary and otherwise) won't allow it." 


Please clarify...




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« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2007, 04:01:25 AM »

Josh, on the other hand, read this from the Op/Ed page of the NYT today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/29/opinion/29miles.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

From Paul Hawken's Blessed Unrest: How The World's Largest Movement Came Into Being And Why No One Saw It Coming

"The divisions in the world today have no better analog than the Green and Red Zones of Baghdad.  Armored fencing, earthen berms, sensors, Humvees, and machine guns defend the Green Zone, four square miles of a leafy green, irrigated desert surrounded by a twelve foot concrete blast wall.  Within are villas, the Al-Rashid Hotel, bowling alleys, karaoke bars, fast food restaurants, and the former presidential complex of Saddam Hussein.  There, employees of the Coalition of the Willing do their work alongside American military commanders, Iraqi ministers, and American coporations such as Bechtel and Halliburton.  They feed at cafeterias that offer pork morning, noon, and night--sausages, bacon, pork chops, hot dogs--a constant affront to the Muslim staff and Iraqi secretaries and translators.  Women jog down boulevards in tank tops and shorts while Iraqi children sell pornographic DVDs to soldiers at the bazaar.  Bars are packed, administrative assistants are known to double up as hookers on their second shift, and armed military contractors lounge on cushions at the Green Zone Cafe sucking on hookas.  Annual room, board, and office expenses run $300,000 per person, not counting six figure salaries, travel, and the costs of military protection.

Outside its perimeters is a traumatized city of 5.6 million residents, with open-air markets, mosques, neighborhoods, schools, tea stalls, and a roiling civil war fought with car bombs, beheadings, and executions.  The Red Zone is noisy and crowded, pervaded by fear and anger.  The two zones mirror the global split between those who rule and the majority who don't."

I will add to this sorry litany the fact that the majority of the people living in Baghdad do not have drinkable water, and the electricity is often only on if bribes are paid to militias that have seized the electrical stations.
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« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2007, 10:43:29 AM »

Woo, woo, happy times in the Green Zone. Great analogy defining the differences between  being an ignorant superstitious primitive and a modernist.  Hookers, bowling alleys and Coca Cola, oh my. He has got the fear and anger part right anyhow. Not pork chops, tank tops, and alcoholic beverages, how immoral! The wounded snake devils will be punished by having their bowels removed, it is so written. Sounds like peanuts envy.
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« Reply #88 on: September 01, 2007, 12:26:52 PM »

Anyway the primitives saw modern life through the green zone window, the bowling alleys, the modern hospital, Coca cola and after due deliberation decided the modern object the grand Ayatollah and his children could make the best use of was an atomic bomb. Mass suicide killing on a national scale. The voices had spoken.
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« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2007, 01:57:42 PM »

The latest from one of the not grand Ayatollahs;

US abusing Christianity to protect "Zionism"

Saturday, September 01, 2007 - ?2005 IranMania.com
 
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LONDON, September 1 (IranMania) - The Bush administration is propagating a version of Christianity that is simply not based on the teachings of Prophet Jesus but in tune with Zionist interests, a senior preacher said, Iran Daily reported.

Substitute prayer leader of the capital, Ayatollah Mohammad Kashani told the weekly congregation at Tehran University campus that ?Based on this (Bush) mentality, the Jews must gather in Palestine and then in the course of some revolution two thirds of them will get killed.

Those who survive would witness the reappearance of Jesus (PBUH).

Therefore, they are keen on bringing the entire Jewry in the world together in Palestine, which is definitely a move rooted in political and satanic plots. But the project is being sold in the framework of hope and reappearance of Messiah, IRNA quoted him as saying.

He said George W. Bush is ?the standard bearer of such mentality. He is loathed in the United States to the extent that the mentality he supports, too, has very limited support.?

Echoing the views of a growing number of social experts and religious figures in the West, the ayatollah said ?The people in the United States and Europe today are living wretched lives.

Addressing the western world, he concluded, ?Your youth at the end of the world would be leading such difficult lives that you hardly would be able to ignore. The Prophet of Islam 14 centuries ago had warned the Christians that such times would eventually come.?
 
(the little wounded snake devils, He went to Qom University and majored in satanology.) 

http://www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCode=53917&NewsKind=Current%20Affairs
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