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Exiles of the New York Times
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Author Topic: The Universe  (Read 885 times)
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obertray
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« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2008, 05:26:05 PM »

The picture as it was taken?

The picture as it was taken also has the dust cloud going down.

This is not Avedon or Snowden taking a picture, it's not an Ansel Adams composition its a press release from an agency that we pay!

Up is up and down is down. Avalanches don't go sideways! If you are trying to show an avalanch you put the photo in the proper perspective.

Jesus Christ! Somebody fucked up and the media and the media users just go right on along with it. Is there no independent critical thought in this nation any more?

"The picture as it was taken" Holy Christ as a saltine cracker!
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weezo
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« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2008, 05:38:32 PM »

Ober,

Oh, dear no, handsome child, up and down are relative, and sideways comind off the side of a planet is sideways coming off the side of a planet. Do you lack the mental-visual capacity to see the original and understand what you are looking at? Apparently not. It is not unusual. I have two sisters who are dyslexic and both tend to see all letters upside down. When they could turn the book upside down, the could read more easily. I have a very educated friend who cannot form mental pictures. He has no "mind's eye". He also does not have a good visual memory, but one whiz-bang memory of what he has read (processed mentally), heard, smelt and felt.

People vary very much more than a lot of folks realize. Far too many people say "I am this way, and think everyone is the same". This is a major obstacle in learning, since the duffuses running the show seem to think that everyone should learn by the same methods that worked for them, and deem it a "waste of funding" to provide learning in other styles for other types of learners.
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« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2008, 05:49:59 PM »

Obertray, I am not on Mars, and I don't think you are either.  Anyway, I don't want to get into a pissing contest about what's up or down on Mars.  I thought the same thing myself when I looked at the picture.  Then I decided it didn't matter.  Part of my mind doesn't really believe those science guys when they say stuff about chunks of matter in space.  There's another part of my mind that says "Get over it, those guys probably know what they're talking about."   Smiley
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obertray
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« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2008, 05:59:10 PM »

Ober,

Oh, dear no, handsome child, up and down are relative, and sideways comind off the side of a planet is sideways coming off the side of a planet. Do you lack the mental-visual capacity to see the original and understand what you are looking at? Apparently not. It is not unusual. I have two sisters who are dyslexic and both tend to see all letters upside down. When they could turn the book upside down, the could read more easily. I have a very educated friend who cannot form mental pictures. He has no "mind's eye". He also does not have a good visual memory, but one whiz-bang memory of what he has read (processed mentally), heard, smelt and felt.

People vary very much more than a lot of folks realize. Far too many people say "I am this way, and think everyone is the same". This is a major obstacle in learning, since the duffuses running the show seem to think that everyone should learn by the same methods that worked for them, and deem it a "waste of funding" to provide learning in other styles for other types of learners.


Weezo,

NOOOOOOO!!!! When you are on a solid planetoid up is the direction away from the center of gravity and down is towards the pull of gravity. I can not believe that we need to define terms such as Up and Down.

The picture is sideways, it has nothing to do with my ability (but thanks for the ad homineminizing anyway) to visualize it has to do with "This side up". Avalanches are a product of gravity acting upon loose matter. Gravity does not pull left to right, it pulls Up to Down. If the Agency want to show a picture of an avalanche, it is their duty to put the photograph into a perspective that is familiar to the audience.

Avalanches are when things fall DOWN! Falling can only go in one direction, down, by definition.

Obertray, I am not on Mars, and I don't think you are either.  Anyway, I don't want to get into a pissing contest about what's up or down on Mars.  I thought the same thing myself when I looked at the picture.  Then I decided it didn't matter.  Part of my mind doesn't really believe those science guys when they say stuff about chunks of matter in space.  There's another part of my mind that says "Get over it, those guys probably know what they're talking about."   Smiley

We're good. No yellow from where I'm standing, but see if my rationalization above doesn't make sense to you, and I'll be happy to hear your report (I hope).
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weezo
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« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2008, 06:12:03 PM »

Actually, my ad hominizing was also a lesson in the variations in people and why scientists should be able to show the pictures in the original and not "doctor them up" to suit people with a poor sense of perspective.

Up and Down are relative, in that the center of gravity may not always be "down" in relation of the observer, but can be sideways or upside down. If a volcano blows in the southern hemisphere and is recorded from space at an angle in which the south pole is at the base of the picture, the volcano will blow "down". It is only if you are at the same perspective as the base of the volcano (and not standing on your head), that you will see the volcano blow "up".

Perspective and relatively can be difficult concepts to internalize, but it can be even more difficult for those who are confortable with such concepts to carry on an intelligent discussion with those who are not.
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obertray
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« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2008, 07:51:11 PM »

If you are ON the planetoid and you are standing, the direction of your head is up.

The picture is not from space the picture is based ON the planet.

You mean to tell us that you don't know up from down?

I'm well aware with the fact that there are other realities but this picture does not relate to those realities.

I'm finished with this and all other discussions with you.
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2008, 08:01:21 PM »

Oh fer Chrissakes...

Quote
The picture is not from space the picture is based ON the planet.

Get a grip. From the link:

Quote
The landslides were spied by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter


If the picture is not from space, just exactly what do you think it was orbiting?

...no, on second thought don't answer that. I'm thinking I do recognize you despite that clever disguise.

There must be more interesting things than up-ness and down-ness to discuss about this phenomenal (though obviously false-colored and otherwise retouched) photo of a geologic event on another planet!

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weezo
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« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2008, 08:10:11 PM »

NoneOf,

I agree that up-ness and down-ness is hardly worth discussing, and thanks for pointing out the obvious, that the picture was taken from space.

I would like to hear more about your contentions that the picture was otherwise doctored up or altered in some way.

Otherwise, I tend to agree that it poses a beginning point for discussion on what we really know about Mars, and, more importantly, what we have still to learn.
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obertray
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« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2008, 08:14:34 PM »

"Quote
The landslides were spied by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter"

I did not see that. My bad.


But then I didn't notice this either

"The image, taken last month, reveals at least four avalanches of fine ice and dust breaking off from a steep cliff and settling on the slope below. The cascade kicked up massive debris clouds, with some measuring more than 590 feet across."

So I guess I'm not the only one who thinks there is an up and down from space.



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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2008, 08:35:41 PM »

Quote
"The image, taken last month, reveals at least four avalanches of fine ice and dust breaking off from a steep cliff and settling on the slope below. The cascade kicked up massive debris clouds, with some measuring more than 590 feet across."

Sheesh. From space (the vantage from which the picture is taken) DOWN would be AWAY from the orbiter, UP would be TOWARD the orbiter, just as in any overhead shot taken on earth. BELOW would be BELOW the steep cliff where the avalanch started ... let's not be coy, eh?

As for "otherwise retouched" (or whatever I said... short memory syndrome) it's a reference to the fact that the MRO takes "pictures" in spectra that includes most of, but are not limited to, the visible spectrum. The information in the non-vis spectra are routinely incorporated into "pictures" like this one. It's not deception, it's revelation. But it's also not a "raw" translation of a single data set.
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obertray
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« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2008, 08:49:04 PM »

Yeah...and....?

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weezo
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« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2008, 09:26:12 PM »

None Of,

I am curious what other spectra are included besides the visual spectrum. I am not a physicist, so it is not a trick question. If you can fill me in on what else is included in the "raw data", I would be appreciative.
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2008, 10:10:39 PM »

Weezo, I bet you could find out about that as easily as I could. I've read about it, and a few folks I know/knew that helped design those contraptions have told me about it but I can't say anything of specific value off the top of my head. Just start searching info on "mars reconnaissance orbiter". Maybe include "infrared", "ultraviolet" or some other spectral designations in your search -  you'll probably come up with something pretty quick. Whether it's believable or comprehensible is another story.



Edit/add: I do know of someone I can ask about this specifically. Will let you know what I find out, if anything.
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weezo
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« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2008, 10:52:17 PM »

None Of,

That give me an idea what you mean when you mention infrared and ultraviolet. Not sure why I didn't think of it earlier.

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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2008, 03:12:19 PM »

Weezo,

I'm still awaiting a reply from a guy who should know how that photo was generated (how the MRO "takes" such photos). And since you asked, I'm as curious as you are about it. Hopefully we'll find something out.
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"Those who would give up their freedom for security will have none and deserve neither."
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