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Author Topic: Origins of Man (and Woman)  (Read 2121 times)
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GrannyM
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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2008, 12:00:00 PM »

Yeah, there's that, and the fact that if you speculate enough, you might live long enough to see one of your speculations validated!

Well, validating speculations means work:  Actually gathering facts; arranging them in such a way that they make some sense; making up some prediction that would test whether the "sense" you saw holds in the face of new facts; all that.  That is, I suppose, why folks like those at the Discovery Institute stick to speculating, and that, in areas where facts aren't thick on the ground. 
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2008, 12:14:42 PM »

Yeah, there's that, and the fact that if you speculate enough, you might live long enough to see one of your speculations validated!

Well, validating speculations means work:  Actually gathering facts; arranging them in such a way that they make some sense; making up some prediction that would test whether the "sense" you saw holds in the face of new facts; all that.  That is, I suppose, why folks like those at the Discovery Institute stick to speculating, and that, in areas where facts aren't thick on the ground. 

Ain't THAT the truth! More to the beauty of speculation - just await someone else's heavy lifting then say "I told you so" if you should happen to be vindicated. IMO the Creation...er... Discovery Institute is sort of a different animal, with a real antipathy for the scientific method. They avoid actual science and even speculation based on actual science, in favor of donning a mantle of scientific inquiry by invoking the name. Pity is that some people actually buy the notion that they're doing[ something scientific.
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weezo
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2008, 12:27:38 PM »

I'm curious of the views of those here on when men and woman originated:

Australopethecine Africanus - first to walk upright

Homo Habilis - worked with tools.

Homo Erectus - Wandered, walked upright, worked with tools,  more human skull

Neanderthal Man - European - heavy skull, heavy facial features

Cro-Magnun Man - European and Asian, wandered a lot, worked with tools, skull most like human.

Links available on: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/mrsp/science/Biology/Humans/Hominids.html

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Donotremove
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2008, 12:39:14 PM »

Man and woman were around long before talk about their properties.  First you had to have written language.  Then the intellectual capacity for comprehension, etc,.  Of course, this same intellectual development also invented the God concept.

Male, female.  Seems as if nature was of two minds about how to produce "increase".  Some increase does not require male, female.
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bartolomeo
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2008, 01:57:59 PM »

A lot of our intellectual abilities are a kind of spinoff in terms of natural selection -- i.e. they happen to be a side effect of some particular cognitive ability that had a particular selective advantage -- e.g. tossing a spear and having the spatial skills to plan where it will land in the side of an animal  in motion (this takes a huge amount of processing, lots of extra neurons).  Having syntax and grammar might happen to develop as a result of specific mental skills that allow you order certain events in your memory, say of having found edible roots while out on a walk, etc.   Pattern recognition skills are generally good in humans because of an evolutionary past in very harsh African savannah country -- dangerous predators, extreme droughts, sudden shifts in availability of certain foods, etc.  We're smart because surviving as a primate is a tough proposition and you needs lots of tools in your mental toolkit.



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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2008, 03:05:53 PM »

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A lot of our intellectual abilities are a kind of spinoff in terms of natural selection -- i.e. they happen to be a side effect of some particular cognitive ability that had a particular selective advantage

I think that's probably real close to the mark.

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Having syntax and grammar might happen to develop as a result of specific mental skills that allow you order certain events in your memory

Check THIS out: Monkey chat sheds light on evolution of syntax

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But how did syntax evolve? One standard explanation is that syntax arises when the vocabulary of signals gets so large that it becomes easier to combine signals in new ways than to make new signals.

But now it appears that syntax can arise from the other end of the signal-complexity spectrum, as well.

Very interesting IMO. And the added bonus of recorded monkey calls - can't beat that!

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Pattern recognition skills are generally good in humans because of an evolutionary past in very harsh African savannah country

Fits well with the OOA hypothesis, but it also fits well with its comptetitors. I happen to lean toward OOA, but nobody's listening to me, let alone taking my word for it...


Edit: "also wits well".... sheesh, wits, fits... I'm losing my wits and it's giving me fits.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 03:07:29 PM by NoneoftheAbove » Logged

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GrannyM
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2008, 06:03:25 PM »

I'm curious of the views of those here on when men and woman originated:

Australopethecine Africanus - first to walk upright

Homo Habilis - worked with tools.

Homo Erectus - Wandered, walked upright, worked with tools,  more human skull

Neanderthal Man - European - heavy skull, heavy facial features

Cro-Magnun Man - European and Asian, wandered a lot, worked with tools, skull most like human.



I am not an expert.  Anybody who has better info is welcome to jump in here; I'm not proud. 

All of these are homo, and so are our relations.  We are not sure whether Australopiticeans, homo habilis, or homo erectus are ancestral to us, or are just creatures with a common ancestor, making them cousins.   They have managed to extract some DNA from Neanderthals, and as I understand it, it indicates that Neanderthals are NOT ancestral to us; we and they have a common ancestor about half way between the common ancestor of us and chimpanzees.

Cro Magnon IS us.  They were early anatomically modern humans. 
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2008, 06:08:38 PM »

Here's a phylogenic chart of the usual uncertainty, seems to be the best current guess (won't let me post a good-sized copy so here's a link):

http://anthropology.si.edu/humanorigins/ha/a_tree.html

You can click on any critter and get a synopsis of the current state of debate (or as current as the chart is).

« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 06:16:21 PM by NoneoftheAbove » Logged

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weezo
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2008, 09:38:15 PM »

Thanks, NOTA

I will add that link to the set of webpages I am making both for history and for science. It is a better chart than the one I printed from another site which does not show the movement from group to group. There is a possibility that traits of Neaderthal man entered our gene pool perhaps residing in people in Europe who have lived in the ancestral homes the longest. If you've an interest, I can look up links for these, or you may want to prove it to yourself.
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2008, 10:05:07 PM »

Thank YOU weezo - I'd love to look at those links when you have the time. I've read a bunch of heated debate on that question, and personally can't see how some interbreeding wouldn't have happened at some point... whether the progenic line continued seems to be the issue.
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weezo
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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2008, 10:20:40 PM »

NOTA,

Here is a list of links I have on the Australopithecines page:

Fossil Hominids: The Evidance for Human Evolution http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/

Recent Developments in Anthropaleology: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/recent.html#mille

Hominid Species : http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html

Hominid Timeline: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html#timeline

Prominant Hominid Fossils: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#er1470

Island of the Lost Hominids: http://www.corante.com/loom/archives/026745.html

Hominid Species: http://www.snowcrest.net/goehring/a2/primates/fossils.htm#species

A Catalog of Hominid Species: http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Sciences/Paleontology/Paleozoology/FossilHominids/Humankind/Humankind.htm

What did early hominids eat? http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/images/did_early_african_hominids_eat_m.htm

Diet of early hominids: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Paleoanthropology_Hominids_Early_Behavior

And, you may want to check out the rest of the inks on the links from: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/mrsp/science/Biology/Humans/Hominids.html

Not sure of my source, perhaps Mark Kurlansky in "The Basque History of the World, that mention was made of the unusual DNA in Basque people which MAY trace back to Neanderthal. It would be a good part of Europe for a remnant to separate off into the mountains and keep their own DNA, language, and other aspects of their culture through the ages.




 

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bartolomeo
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2008, 11:48:09 AM »

None, thanks for the monkey chat link.  I'm glad we've evolved so that when we want to say, "Let's get out of here" we don't have to say "jaguar eagle!" and hope everyone gets the drift.   I'm still hoping that language software in computers will evolve, too, so that a transcription program will clearly understand that you said "new direction" and not "nude erection."

 
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2008, 11:51:58 AM »

 I'm still hoping that language software in computers will evolve, too, so that a transcription program will clearly understand that you said "new direction" and not "nude erection."

 

Meanwhile, maybe it does pay to hold your breath!

Weezo,

Talkorigins is a great resource. Some of those other links I've not seen before. Started reading them... not bad so far! Want to thank you for that. Still, if you stumble across anything new in the N/CM interbreeding debate, please let us know! Here is the last thing I've read on it, with some fairly substantial support for the "Basque" argument:

http://www.aoi.com.au/bcw/neanderbasque.htm

I find the language facet of the argument most interesting! Oh - and a bit of a reach IMO, but this is worth pondering too:

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It has been suggested [5] that the Basques were the original inhabitants of Europe, and the architects of Stonehenge and similar megalithic structures. These constructions apparently used a unique system of measurement based on the number 7 (instead of 10, 12, or 60), representing a separate origin of a mathematical system.
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weezo
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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2008, 11:04:06 PM »

NOTA.

It is very interesting, but as yet far from certain. But, it may be without question in years to come. Kurlansky's Basque history is an interesting read.
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2008, 06:04:13 PM »

Weezo,

Has Kurlanski written anything about it since The Basque History of the World in 2001?

Guess I have to put that book on my burgeoning book-wish list.
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