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Author Topic: Origins of Man (and Woman)  (Read 1162 times)
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NoneoftheAbove
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« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2008, 03:00:31 PM »

Hi Barton,

I hope everyone had a chance to see the hilarious thread at Pharyngula "Expelled from Expelled", where PZ Meyers (who actually appears in the movie after being coerced to do so under false pretext) got kicked out of line for being recognized. The thugs who kicked him out somehow missed the fact that Richard Dawkins was standing right next to him.

Here's a link to "Expelled Exposed" : http://www.expelledexposed.com/
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Donotremove
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« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2008, 10:14:39 AM »

What Social Security checks?
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barton
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« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2008, 11:19:42 AM »

It probably would be amusing to watch them dress up creationism in its stylish new Intelligent Design suit and pretend that it makes more sense.  The best joke to me is Stein's theme that public schools are somehow stifling creative thinking by not teaching creation "science" -- when were schools ever the torchbearer for creative thinking, Ben?   

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obertray
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« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2008, 02:28:23 PM »

What Social Security checks?

Truth is Donotremove, that I'm not interested enough to read about the Polygamist brouhaha in West Texas, but in the past it has turned out in other cases that the polygamist economics depended on the women collecting some sort of Government assistance checks (welfare queens?).

Then I look at the compound that the church owns, and the idea that there are 400+ children mouths to feed and granted they're not spending a lot on the latest fashions from JCPenny but, still, there is a heck of a high cost of doing business in that set up.

Now, it's one thing if you are an Assemblies Of God sort of a cult where everybody works and lives outside the church and then pools resources to help grow the church but in this case once you're in you're not going out (IIUC) especially if you're wearing a vagina.

It's not like the Shakers, who didn't procreate at all but they at least made furniture that would eventually show up on the Antiques Roadshow. These folks procreate like rabbits, are they quilting all day to make ends meet?

But I don't know for a fact one way or the other in this particular case.

I don't really even wonder if the same people who are against Gay Marriage are against Polygamy for the same basic reason (defense of marriage")? Such is the depth of my interest in any of the three.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 02:29:58 PM by obertray » Logged
weezo
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« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2008, 07:47:01 PM »

Robert,

First of all, Assemblies of God is NOT a cult. Secondly, if you don't know where the polygamists money is coming from, why assume it's social security. He may be growing and selling weed, or writing video games, or whatever.

As usual, when you don't know something, you take a flyer into stupidity!
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ponderosa
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« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2008, 09:48:20 PM »


... are they quilting all day to make ends meet?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/12/polygamist-sect-gets-mill_n_96394.html

American taxpayers have unwittingly helped finance a polygamist sect that is now the focus of a massive child abuse investigation in West Texas, with a business tied to the group receiving a nearly $1 million loan from the federal government and $1.2 million in military contracts.

Apparently "we" da peoplez are in bidness with 'em.
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obertray
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« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2008, 09:55:11 PM »

Weezo,

Because, as I said, it was the case in the past with smaller polygamist "families".

From what I know of AOG, yeah, they are. Of course, they wouldn't say so. Moonies don't think they're in a cult either.

Interestingly though, some Moonies see Amway as a cult.Having once been an Amway distributor, I found it hard to disagree with that sentiment.

When something demands total commitment to it, it's a cult. AOG demands Total Church Lifestyle with a heavy tithe and a devotion to the local Pastor who is unquestionable.

It's not Heaven's Gate, it's more Christianity/Scientology/franchized religion but net effect is about the same.

Ponderosa,

You mean they're getting Corporate welfare? Well that's very different then! Wink
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weezo
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« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2008, 11:06:18 PM »

Robert,

You are putting your big foot square in your mouth over the Assemblies of God. They are not a cult, they are no different from other protestant churches. I know this for a fact inasmuch as I had connections to the denomination in my life. You, sir, have been caught in another lie!
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Donotremove
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« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2008, 02:51:33 AM »

I was raised in Assemblies of God Church, both in Dallas, TX and Loveland, Colorado.  There is not the slightest comparison of the Assemblies of God and any cult that I know of.  The church advocated "clean, plain living" in that dress was modest for both women and men, and card playing, dancing, and jewlery were heavily discouraged.  Interpetation of the Bible was literal and congregations tended to associate with one another rather than with "sinners" (my father's mother believed the Assemblies was the only true religion) but that was, generally, because such association was easier since everyone agreed about everything regarding life choices.  There were lots of children's activities and group church activities, to keep, I suspect, members focused on the Godly rather than the Devil's mischief.  There were several "power fights" among the hiarchy on the national level, and several scandels, IIRC.

My immediate family (on my father's side, my mother's side were all Presbyterians) drifted away during the 80s and went to Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ, etc, with some just giving up on "religion" period, me included, although I did wander for several years trying out first this denomination then that denomination.  Those among you that have "gone agnostic" know the routine prior to just giving up.

No, the Assemblies of God is just an ordinary Christian fundementalist denomination.
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weezo
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« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2008, 06:45:40 AM »

Donot,

Thanks for your input. You pretty much outlined the church as I remember it. I became involved when I married my first husband. The fact that I came from the Catholic church which I grew up with, made me suspect as not quite good enough. When we could not find a good AOG church after moving to Virginia, we gave up, went the other churches route, then gave up. I had a brief return to Catholicism until the local bishop said something I couldn't stomach, and that was the end of all churching for me. AOG is no more a "cult" than the Baptists.
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obertray
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« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2008, 08:10:29 AM »

Well I admit and apologize for being aggressive in my definition of cult and my inclusion of AOG as one.

I do think that anytime you give over decisions for your own life over to another person you are exhibiting cult member behaviors. I think that whenever you give up independent reasoning in favor of a fanatical devotion to another, you are exhibiting cult member behaviors. And I think that any organization that aims to take advantage of those behaviors is a cult(ic) organization.

I would think that my definition is somewhat legitimized by the concept of "the cult of personality." But then it can also be delegitimized by the concept of "cultural norms" through which we develop laws etc which essentially compell us to have given over decisions to the will of the community, or face condemnation for disobedience.

I will say that my closest experience with AOG in this area was a group with a VERY strong centralized leader, IIRC the chapter broke off from the the mother church and went semi Jonestown before it fell off my radar. It still exists I just went to look at their website.

So if I offended you , I'm sorry, it wasn't my intent to offend you personally; even though it was my intent to slam AOG given their (at least local) practice of a heavy tithe so that the pastor can drive the biggest Caddy in town. Which was the point that I was making about Fundies being about the funds. I might have made the same point using the Rev Ike.
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barton
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« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2008, 10:11:09 AM »

"I do think that anytime you give over decisions for your own life over to another person you are exhibiting cult member behaviors. I think that whenever you give up independent reasoning in favor of a fanatical devotion to another, you are exhibiting cult member behaviors...."

You've just described at least half the population of the U.S.

 Cheesy
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obertray
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« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2008, 10:24:18 AM »

"I do think that anytime you give over decisions for your own life over to another person you are exhibiting cult member behaviors. I think that whenever you give up independent reasoning in favor of a fanatical devotion to another, you are exhibiting cult member behaviors...."

You've just described at least half the population of the U.S.

 Cheesy

I love it when someone gets the effin jokes!
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caclark
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« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2008, 12:05:47 PM »

Cult has become a trite, unhelpful term because of the casual manner in which it is glibly invoked to demean small groups with aberrational beliefs. Some ultra-fanatical evangelicals frequently condemn the Catholic Church as being a cult. The term cult may not illuminate anymore, but it is a handy cudgel when you want to delegitimize or belittle someone else’s beliefs.
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barton
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« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2008, 12:38:24 PM »

My favorite cudgel is the phrase, "I'm not ready to drink the koolaid yet."

As for "cult," I sort of like the way it can be glibly invoked to demean small groups with aberrational beliefs.  I mean, how much time and attention do I really want to devote to fanatics and loonies and those generally wearing tight corsets on their minds?  "Cult" is quick and dismissive and thus allows me to move quickly on to more important matters such as the contemplation of lunch or proper butt wiping.

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