Escape from Elba

Books => History => Topic started by: Admin on September 08, 2007, 09:18:05 PM



Title: World History
Post by: Admin on September 08, 2007, 09:18:05 PM
Discuss books concerning World History here.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 08, 2007, 09:29:28 PM
Thank you very much for setting this up for those who want to expand  into World History.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 08, 2007, 09:38:11 PM
Now---any suggestions for the first book we want to discuss? Let's just start out by exchanging views on topics or books we want to go over?

I just read pieces of RIVERS OF GOLD by Hugh Thomas and as usual it was a good Thomas production on the scale of CONQUEST. It a tome, but readable. There's also a new book out THE KING, THE KAISER AND THE CZAR which I just ordered, but haven't seen yet, but which is an interesting topic. Then there's one out on THE LONG MARCH which I just saw today.

I'm into Soviet History at times and recently read STALIN: THE COURT OF THE RED CZAR.

Lastly, BASILICA a history of the building of St. Peter's Basilica. This one is out in paperback

Please add to the suggestions.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 08, 2007, 10:03:56 PM
I'm not sure that I'd like to participate in this particular forum but, like you, I love Spanish and Russian/Soviet history. The Stalin book certainly sounds quite interesting.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 08, 2007, 10:24:39 PM
I, too, am glad to see this forum. I know very little about Russia, and am already spent out on books for this month, so I may just sit this one out on the sidelines.

In the meantime, I recently got The Discoverers and will be reading that, so I may have some questions or comments. I think, Bob, you quoted from it quite a bit during 1421.




Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on September 09, 2007, 03:51:00 AM
I have recently read Planet of Slums by Mike Davis, Blessed Unrest: How The Largest Movement in the World Came Into Being and No One Saw It Coming by Paul Hawken, and have re read A World Lit Only By Fire by William Manchester (trade size paperback).  I am reading Chalmers Johnson's triolgy Blowback, Sorrows of Empire, Nemisis, which is kind of American History but it isn't exactly.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 09, 2007, 07:39:36 AM
Donot,

Your readings sound much more like what I would like to pursue than those about Russia that Bob suggested.

Last night I finished "The Glorious Defeat" about the US-Mexican war and how the Mexicans resisted a negotiated peach in favor of losing a war to preserve their "national honor". It was interesting to see how democracy was repeatedly subverted by the elite who refused to allow their "common people" to gain knowledge through education to become an effective part of their own government, as well as the duplicity of the Catholic Church in keeping "the peasants in their place". No wonder so many Mexicans seek the freedoms already in place in this country. Yet, we too, are threatened by the arrogance of the elite who would thwart the interests of the "common people" in order to attain and keep power. "The Glorious Defeat" bring home how precious and fragile democracy really is. We need to remain ever vigilant that the government by the people and for the people does not slip away from "the people".


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 09, 2007, 08:37:42 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Hope-Against-Memoir-Nadezhda-Mandelstam/dp/0375753168


Perhaps the definitive reading on the futility and evil of the Stalinist regime.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 09, 2007, 09:05:43 AM
I'll look at the books donotremove suggests.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on September 09, 2007, 10:54:44 AM
Bob, my reading list was not a suggestion list. I was just checking in here to let folks know I'm an interested participant and/or bystander to this new World History discussion.  My reading choices very seldom cross any readers here, or any other site I join in discussions with other "readers."  I never have seemed to run into a group that reads along the same lines as I do.  But that's okay.  Now and then something comes along . . . .

Salt by Kurlansky is one of the most stimulating world histories I've ever read.  I'm getting ready to read it again.  Now that I think of it, Kurlansky, in Cod, mentions how the Basque already had crude on-the-beach fishing/curing stations in the New World by the time the Portugese and others got there.  I imagine fishermen discovered lots more territory than they ever got credit for.

I will suggest that it might be time for people to get out their copy of Barbara Tuchman's The March of Folly and read it again.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 09, 2007, 01:19:25 PM
Might be, donotremove. I've got my copy. In the meanwhile, I am proceeding with Peeling the Onion, which is not in the Food Matters but in Nonfiction for which I received a reply from admin(sure hope that really is )


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on September 09, 2007, 02:06:28 PM
Maddy, as far as I can tell. you are reading and discussing Peeling the Onion by yourself.  I haven't seen anyone pick up on it, except for a few comments way back there.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: bosox18d on September 09, 2007, 02:40:43 PM
Donot,I read both Salt and Cod but isn't Kurlansky also the author of "Basque History of the World" also(or some title close to that)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on September 09, 2007, 04:21:19 PM
I'm rereading Ten Days That Shook The World intending to discuss it with lhoffman and any interested others in Oct. in Nonfiction.  It could be moved here or remain there.  Certainly, there's no shortage of books of interest and I'm grateful to whoever got this new thread started, and will try to follow even when unable to participate.  THANKS!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thebizneverloses on September 09, 2007, 04:32:42 PM
donotremove - how was the Hawken book? I read "Ecology of Commerce" about 10 years back and was particularly moved by it.

On the subject of World History, recently finished "The Black Jacobins", which was a fascinating, if overly detailed and somewhat tendentious, account of the Haitian rebellion at the turn of the 19th century.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 09, 2007, 04:35:25 PM
I've started a list of books for me to order when my money frees up again. The March of Folly sounds like a good starting point, and I also like the idea of Salt and Cod.

I've read the discussion on the caravels in The Discoverers, and wonder why anyone would want to compare them to the large Chinese Junks described in 1421. The caravels were much smaller than many of the trading ships used on the Mediterranean, since their purpose was different. They were not designed to carry large numbers of people or large amounts of trade good. The caravels were designed for making the return trip against the wind, while the junks were intended to be guided by wind and current. The junks were expected to circle the world, not to go out a bit further than last time and explore a little bit more. The Discoverers does describe the beginning of the African slave trade.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 09, 2007, 05:10:01 PM
MARCH OF FOLLY is an excellent book. Anything by Barabara Tuchman is very good.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on September 10, 2007, 01:26:59 AM
Thebiz, Blessed Unrest is an odd title (and don't ask me what should have been used in its place) for a book about the Internet's influence on "movements" of every kind including, and especially for Hawken, the ecological movement, now generally known as "being green" or just "green."  The hundreds of thousands of groups, from 1-2 people to the very large with thousands of members, linking together like a mighty brain with no restraint on ideas.  The world sitting down and assessing its condition and trying to problem solve with the technology available.  Hawken writes very well.  Your library should have it.  That's where I got it, but I intend to buy it since there is lots of reference material in the back that I want to have all in one place.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on September 10, 2007, 03:10:05 AM
I've been reading The Black Sea by Neal Ascherson.  I think it was Desdemona who recommended it sometime back, and I had long been meaning to read it.  I really enjoyed Ascherson's journey through his native Scotland in Stone Voices.  Ascherson doesn't talk much about the early Lithuanian kingdom which at one time stretched all the way to the Black Sea.  In the early going, he focuses on the Tatars and their control over Crimea for many years, before Russia laid claim to it.  It was interesting to read that it was Khrushchev who ceded Crimea to his native Ukraine during his tenure as Soviet premier.  Ascherson mixes contemporary with historic events in the form of a journal, which is very interesting to read.  In Eastern Europe, events that occurred 700 years ago are as fresh in many minds as if they had happened yesterday.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 10, 2007, 04:04:27 PM
Wow!  I'm excited to see this new forum since I'm not interested in American History at all.  I'm interested in reading more about Stalin.  The ultimate book about dictators in the 20th century for me is Alan Bullock's Hitler and Stalin, but it's not a good discussion book since it takes months to read.

Madupont -

I've been wanting to read Peeling the Onion for quite some time now, but I don't have the book.  Wonder who sent you that message? 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 10, 2007, 09:29:38 PM
There's a new book out on Lenin, Stalin &  Hitler. I have it at work. I think its  about 600  pages, but I'm not so sure its up to the quality of the Bullock work.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 10, 2007, 10:39:53 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Wretched-Earth-Frantz-Fanon/dp/0802150837

The Wretched of the Earth by Franz Fanon may well be the best modern day history book.  For those who wonder why ''terrorism'' exists at all, this book explains why people fight for their liberation from Western imperialism and terrorism.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 10, 2007, 10:51:57 PM
Hi! Desdemona, re:#19

I picked it up some time ago, after reading the excerpt in The New Yorker. Which I mentioned to teddy174c; she was not interested in reading Grass at this time.  I thought this was posted in Meander but,just now when I checked, it didn't come up in the search feature; what came up was what I had found interesting about reading Crab-walk a couple of years ago.  It repeatedly would be suggested in the Book Forums by Mike at the start of each month but there were no takers. I finally got tired and just plowed into it making notes as I went. 

As I recalled to teddy, who had a note from you at the top of my post, in a quote, apparently Grass had some fascination with how the internet was used by younger people than himself.  And he worked this into Crab-walk before we were as thoroughly aware of how "spinning" is used politically in numerous forums at nytimes.com which has of course increased ten-fold or perhaps some astronomical figure since.

Gunter Grass took it up as a device by recounting how  "a nephew of his, or perhaps a great nephew" was posting regularly to a contemporary poster about an historical event that happened when Grass was young.
The two younger posters went from debate to vicious argument, taking political sides about the significance of the event until, in an odd parallel they repeat an occurence, that led to the "christening of the ship" by the name of a victim of assassination.  In other words, the younger generation re-enacts an earlier scandal. During the Third Reich, the 'heroically" named ship becomes a pleasure cruiser for ordinary citizens and ideological groups going on the Baltic in a program that the Nazis referred to as "Strength through Joy. Until the fateful day it is torpedoed by a Soviet submarine.

It's a nice neat short example of Gunter Grass intertwining two stories from two different eras in one novel in which he is the narrator.

He of course does this again in, Peeling the Onion, narrating his memoirs-- of himself as a young man.

I've gone back to The New Yorker, and once again cannot locate the article whose link I had sent to teddy174c, following another discussion entirely about the Alice Munro story,The Bear Who Came over the Mountain, which teddy had just seen as a Julie Christy movie.

In any case, checking back on other events in these forum, I notice that I picked up the book on July 31st. because I was so impressed with Grass' own account of the unfolding of events at Danzig under the Third Reich, as excerpted in The New Yorker either in June or perhaps earlier. 

A second article in The New York Review of Books, this August, was far less favorable. The German public is fastening on his silence to relieve a collective guilt  for society's participation in WW2

In the meantime, I had seen the televised interview at the New York Public Library by O'Hagan.  I first watched it on the internet but the sound was much clearer when finally viewing it on tv. This runs close to three hours during which O'Hagan interviews Gunter Grass, then interviews Norman Mailer (an order in reverse when shown on the web-site),and then in the third hour interviews the two writers together. Mailer who thinks this may be his last public interview provides the most definitive explanation, in his own understanding of why a writer waits to discuss an issue until the method of writing clarifies itself; he states, in his own life, he has been unable to publicly bring forward in writing the incident of many decades ago in the past when he stabbed his wife. He has not yet, and perhaps never well. But he chose to take it as an example of understanding why Gunter Grass had not publicly discussed his own mind on his youthful experience when school boys served, particularly in "manning" anti-aircraft guns. So of course,this is very much an examination of conscience, as Grass was raised a German Catholic.  Most of us are also aware that another young student serving in anti-aircraft duty was the present Pope Benedict XVI.

Gunter Grass was considered too young and underdeveloped to be trained and placed as an active-helper, until a couple of years passed and he was conscripted to report to the Waffen SS.  There are two or three reasons that I do not find this particularly remarkable. Following the war, I had occasion to discover in the midst of a conversation  with somebody who was rehearsing me in my lines for several ingenue Shakespearean roles that it was an ordinary event in German-American communities for young men,whose families had  previously  emigrated from Germany,  to  receive  their official draft  notices  from  the  Third Reich. On the other hand many people were now in the US in these communities after having received their clearance through de-nazification examinations and investigations by allied and American authority, who in their school days been in the membership of the Hitler Jugend.  I found it more difficult how to handle something that occurred in early 1970s when arranging for a car to pick up a friend of mine who wished to visit her old friends locally after returning from Asia and before returning there.  She had been visiting with her father who was now a widower, in a small Midwestern cross-roads, farming village, not much more than
where  trains watered,
 
I drew a complete blank until actually arriving there, expecting that she would be ready to leave and,after a short while, she asked if I had looked at her father's "gross" garden or Schweps garten. I replied in the negative; that I had not. It was a complete impasse because I had simply not dealt with supposing he was there, he was no where in sight,and I had of course known his history through mutual friends of hers and mine. Never at any time, had she ever indicated any awareness of the significance, for instance when seeing photographs of him in uniform,at home, during her childhood once in the US.   There was an entire generation like this who were approximately 13 years younger than myself, or about the age of my sisters, who were their contemporaries but had a "blind" past.

I see this situation as very much repeating at present. We live currently when young students have been recruited by ingeniously clever means in the US; and this is met with  silence to relieve a collective guilt  for society's participation  in the war against Iraq which the interested forces may extend into Iranian territory.

That is why I was particularly interested in reading,Peeling the Onion, to get Gunter Grass' description   from memory,and in his own words, of this process that we are now undergoing because we will surely be held accountable in the future and by future generations for this particular atrocity.

Now then, to what were you referring when you mentioned,"Wonder who sent you that message?" ?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 10, 2007, 10:59:53 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Wretched-Earth-Frantz-Fanon/dp/0802150837

The Wretched of the Earth by Franz Fanon may well be the best modern day history book.  For those who wonder why ''terrorism'' exists at all, this book explains why people fight for their liberation from Western imperialism and terrorism.


Although this has a date from Grove as officially 1965, thanatopsy, how much does it vary or is it derived from Black Faces, White Masks, which I read approximately in 1959 ?  Although my husband was no longer practicing as a psychologist at that time, my younger brother-in-law had just begun his education in the field, and I recommended this book to him, the point being that psychologies are cultural as well as political. They always have a context.  He went on to take his doctorate.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 11, 2007, 08:03:54 AM
 I did not read Black Skin, White Masks but it probably is a worthy read. 

Right wingers decry ''terrorism'' and find every stupid excuse in the world for why they hate us.  But none of those imperialistic warmongering Hitlerians ever bother to do their homework.  If they bothered to read books like these so that they would learn how the Western powers have been terrorizing Third World peoples for centuries, they just may possibly understand that violence begets violence.  And that it is Westerners who have been guilty of this all along! 

This is not to say that there is any justification for the 9/11 attack --- there certainly is none.  But it wasn't anyone from Congo who invaded and decimated Belgium, it wasn't Iran who invaded Britain, and it wasn't Vietnam that invaded the USA. Millions upon millions have died because of Western invasions and terrorism. And the time has come for those warmongering profiteers to pay back the debts they owe to those victimized peoples.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 11, 2007, 10:42:27 AM
thanatopsy

Why the "imperialistic warmongering Hitlerians" don't read  books that disagree with their "mission" to  "civilize" us. They operate from a pre-conditioned, pre-determined value system that is "beyond reproach" because often they believe in the Superior Man, Family Values, Intelligent Design, their own Racial Supremacy, etc. something like Gott mit US  And they do get around.

One of the most surprising shocks I had back in the mid-Fifties was a book by Colin Wilson that doesn't seem to be kicking around anymore. At the time,  he was nearly as young as me and he was dealing with The Outsider, and The Angry Young Men,being British as Wilson was and is.

But when he got to discussing the Occult, about the only books of his you find today are those discussing "practices.   I can no longer find that rather smaller book in which he has just a few sentences that set your hair to standing on end, he mentions offhandedly that only about 5% of the human population is alert enough at any one time to pick up the Politics which is occulted for the general population with the frosting on the cake and the code-words so that they cannot analyze and decipher what is occulted beneath.

The vast majority, whom the Imperial Worldling considers "expendable", are already busy slaving at production  of what can be commodified, exchanged, invested, and lead to corporate wealth; if you review history this way, it is obvious. But as Colin Wilson remarks only about  5% will notice; nobody is likely to believe them either because they will be accused of "Science Fiction". Everybody else is already too tired and exhausted from the production quota and if they are not the recently colonialized, they are having some passive recreation down-time tuned in or signed on to fictional reality.

I know we can tick off the names of contemporary contributors, on our fingers, more than ten guys and gals, communicating a way out, and then we realize that we have lost count on our fingers, and that maybe there aren't so many thinkers after all. Compared to the otherwise employed who are trying to keep up. But one of the things that I definitely learned at NYT,the Guardian Unlimited, the Huffington Post,The Progressive, and in less than six months at Melba's Place, is to pay especial attention to the names that the spinners rattle off for condemnation.  When pressed as they sometimes were in Western Europe forum at nytimes, they were less familiar with the work of whom they were speaking (or, actually, "naming" for condemnation); but they had been given a list of those names when they were hired for propoganda detail on the internet forums.  It was up to them to follow up and find out how to use those names; usually they just castigate them strongly and often, as vociferously as possible. We acquired a new coinage in 2004 for what to call this practice: "swift-boating", as a verb.

Ps, Frantz Fanon writes a wake up call for colonized populations in how to recognize  the conditioning, the psychology of how it is done and how to undo it.  His insights are partly the result of familiarity with French Existentialism or how a post-war population copes psychologically; and it was interesting to me at the time, the choice of words for his title: Black Faces, White Masks, because it had just been brought to performance familiarity as a concept in theatre here in New York in productions of Jean Genet using these White Masks when criticising the Authoritarians in our society: the Judge, the Bishop,the General.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 11, 2007, 11:42:44 AM
maduy
Hi! Desdemona, re:#19

I picked it up some time ago, after reading the excerpt in The New Yorker. Which I mentioned to teddy174c; she was not interested in reading Grass at this time.  I thought this was posted in Meander but,just now when I checked, it didn't come up in the search feature; what came up was what I had found interesting about reading Crab-walk a couple of years ago.  It repeatedly would be suggested in the Book Forums by Mike at the start of each month but there were no takers. I finally got tired and just plowed into it making notes as I went. 

As I recalled to teddy, who had a note from you at the top of my post, in a quote, apparently Grass had some fascination with how the internet was used by younger people than himself.  And he worked this into Crab-walk before we were as thoroughly aware of how "spinning" is used politically in numerous forums at nytimes.com which has of course increased ten-fold or perhaps some astronomical figure since.

Gunter Grass took it up as a device by recounting how  "a nephew of his, or perhaps a great nephew" was posting regularly to a contemporary poster about an historical event that happened when Grass was young.
The two younger posters went from debate to vicious argument, taking political sides about the significance of the event until, in an odd parallel they repeat an occurence, that led to the "christening of the ship" by the name of a victim of assassination.  In other words, the younger generation re-enacts an earlier scandal. During the Third Reich, the 'heroically" named ship becomes a pleasure cruiser for ordinary citizens and ideological groups going on the Baltic in a program that the Nazis referred to as "Strength through Joy. Until the fateful day it is torpedoed by a Soviet submarine.

It's a nice neat short example of Gunter Grass intertwining two stories from two different eras in one novel in which he is the narrator.

He of course does this again in, Peeling the Onion, narrating his memoirs-- of himself as a young man.

I've gone back to The New Yorker, and once again cannot locate the article whose link I had sent to teddy174c, following another discussion entirely about the Alice Munro story,The Bear Who Came over the Mountain, which teddy had just seen as a Julie Christy movie.

In any case, checking back on other events in these forum, I notice that I picked up the book on July 31st. because I was so impressed with Grass' own account of the unfolding of events at Danzig under the Third Reich, as excerpted in The New Yorker either in June or perhaps earlier. 

A second article in The New York Review of Books, this August, was far less favorable. The German public is fastening on his silence to relieve a collective guilt  for society's participation in WW2

In the meantime, I had seen the televised interview at the New York Public Library by O'Hagan.  I first watched it on the internet but the sound was much clearer when finally viewing it on tv. This runs close to three hours during which O'Hagan interviews Gunter Grass, then interviews Norman Mailer (an order in reverse when shown on the web-site),and then in the third hour interviews the two writers together. Mailer who thinks this may be his last public interview provides the most definitive explanation, in his own understanding of why a writer waits to discuss an issue until the method of writing clarifies itself; he states, in his own life, he has been unable to publicly bring forward in writing the incident of many decades ago in the past when he stabbed his wife. He has not yet, and perhaps never well. But he chose to take it as an example of understanding why Gunter Grass had not publicly discussed his own mind on his youthful experience when school boys served, particularly in "manning" anti-aircraft guns. So of course,this is very much an examination of conscience, as Grass was raised a German Catholic.  Most of us are also aware that another young student serving in anti-aircraft duty was the present Pope Benedict XVI.

Gunter Grass was considered too young and underdeveloped to be trained and placed as an active-helper, until a couple of years passed and he was conscripted to report to the Waffen SS.  There are two or three reasons that I do not find this particularly remarkable. Following the war, I had occasion to discover in the midst of a conversation  with somebody who was rehearsing me in my lines for several ingenue Shakespearean roles that it was an ordinary event in German-American communities for young men,whose families had  previously  emigrated from Germany,  to  receive  their official draft  notices  from  the  Third Reich. On the other hand many people were now in the US in these communities after having received their clearance through de-nazification examinations and investigations by allied and American authority, who in their school days been in the membership of the Hitler Jugend.  I found it more difficult how to handle something that occurred in early 1970s when arranging for a car to pick up a friend of mine who wished to visit her old friends locally after returning from Asia and before returning there.  She had been visiting with her father who was now a widower, in a small Midwestern cross-roads, farming village, not much more than
where  trains watered,
 
I drew a complete blank until actually arriving there, expecting that she would be ready to leave and,after a short while, she asked if I had looked at her father's "gross" garden or Schweps garten. I replied in the negative; that I had not. It was a complete impasse because I had simply not dealt with supposing he was there, he was no where in sight,and I had of course known his history through mutual friends of hers and mine. Never at any time, had she ever indicated any awareness of the significance, for instance when seeing photographs of him in uniform,at home, during her childhood once in the US.   There was an entire generation like this who were approximately 13 years younger than myself, or about the age of my sisters, who were their contemporaries but had a "blind" past.

I see this situation as very much repeating at present. We live currently when young students have been recruited by ingeniously clever means in the US; and this is met with  silence to relieve a collective guilt  for society's participation  in the war against Iraq which the interested forces may extend into Iranian territory.

That is why I was particularly interested in reading,Peeling the Onion, to get Gunter Grass' description   from memory,and in his own words, of this process that we are now undergoing because we will surely be held accountable in the future and by future generations for this particular atrocity.

Now then, to what were you referring when you mentioned,"Wonder who sent you that message?" ?

I was referring to the message you said you received from the administrator - thought it sounded like maybe someone was playing a trick on you or something.

Anyway, you've talked me into ordering Peeling the Onion - I'll get that done today.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 11, 2007, 04:03:51 PM
desdemona

Well, what he said was( what MSuss always wanted to do but couldn't because he was working for somebody ): "...I hadn't planned to moderate but let me know..."   Recently, checking back, it was clear to me that admin said administrator. Frankly I think the work load just got too heavy by 2004 New York(eastern standard)Times.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 11, 2007, 05:46:31 PM
maddie,

Reply # 25 was quite interesting.

  While many read history books in order to learn certain facts as explicated by historians, my approach has been, and will always be, just a tad different.  My view is to read these books, not so much because I wish to accept a writer's research, but because I wish to glean lessons from history that we can all use in order to better the world today.

Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth provides lessons that refute the myths expounded by warmongers and other extremist right wing apologists.  Third World ''dissent'' against Western imperialism did not arise by accident.  It arose for valid reasons and Fanon explains why.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 11, 2007, 08:18:25 PM
GLORIOSKI!!!! That's a blast from the past....Frantz Fanon???? Is the book still in print?  Good God, that goes back to the sixties if I'm not mistaken and was a very radical view of things---wasn't it that a Black Power text of sorts--Huey Newton and the guys?

Seriously, I remember the title, I don't think I read it but my recall is that it was way, way to the left....of course its now forty years later and it might be more in vogue now with Communism dead. Wasn't Fanon a Marxists--not a Communist, but a Marxist?

I'll bet discussing it would produce some animated responses.

I like your reasons for reading what you read. I try much the same thing. What I do is to try to get a book on the other side of an issue I just read about. I try never to read just one book on a subject, preferring to read two or three so I can get  balanced views. Fanon will certainly give you a different view of things--make you think!!!

Let me see if its still around.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 11, 2007, 08:25:31 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Wretched-Earth-Frantz-Fanon/dp/0802150837

Fanon lives....its available


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 11, 2007, 08:27:14 PM
HOw'd the little smiley thing get in  my Fanon post? ::)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 11, 2007, 11:33:17 PM
HOw'd the little smiley thing get in  my Fanon post? ::)


Usually, it's because two question marks were used.

As for Fanon, he subscribed to left wing ideology as its proponents expressed much sympathy towards Third World peoples who were oppressed by Western imperialists. It is good to see The Wretched of the Earth is still in print as it remains timeless.

What great lessons we can learn from history if only we could all keep an open mind.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 12, 2007, 12:57:01 AM
thanatopsy,

I was reminded today of Amardeep Singh, following your remarks on Wretched of the Earth by Fanon.  I will look for my notes from his classes.To send to you because he has been dealing with this subject for a long time, specializing in Post-Colonial Literature, and usually his examples for readings that he supplies are just truly amazing, pieces that blow me away like the conversations that took place among Sikhs(he is himself a Sikh; yes, like the character in Michael Ondaatje's The English Patient) following the assassination of Mrs. Indira Gandhi.

That event stood out in my mind, because of my friend who had gone to India to live, in the early 1970s, married, and had children there. The text as Amardeep Singh recommended, within the dialogue of the main characters shows the truly frightening experience of being a member of a cultural group who will  be blamed for the death of the country's chief  official in a country which has a history of violent interactions between religious groups who once lived side by side and intermarried but are repetitively opposing religious groups easily instigated to violence following the partitioning that drove them in different segregated directions as the British Empire pulled out of the region.

Amardeep Singh taught for many years in the region where I am now living but I gather has moved on from here, it was quite surprising that he taught here at all; but, considering that the classes almost always were connected by internet, with people reading on line and returning their class-work on line via commentary or blog as the case may be, it's Indian you see? Which means that people anywhere could enjoy this class.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 12, 2007, 10:08:11 AM
I'm pushing for a constitutional amendment that forces all Presidents and Vice-Presidents to pass a history test prior to being sworn in.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 12, 2007, 12:15:52 PM
Dessie,

Good idea! How about including a test on the constitution along with it, and a test on basic governing skills.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 12, 2007, 01:35:36 PM
Plus the lessons of history:

Lesson One:  You can't cram democracy down the throat of a country that doesn't want it.  Historical Results:  Nazi Germany 

Application:  If you were President and decided to go to war with a country partly to establish a democracy, would that be a good idea?

a)  Yes - democracy is good for all freedom-loving people, and all people are freedom-loving
b)  Maybe - depends on if there's any historical or cultural support for democracy in that particular culture
c)  No - forget it and mind your own damn business.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 12, 2007, 03:49:59 PM
Desdemona

Lest you forget: The great one has a degree in history from Yale---doesn't that scare the crap out of you?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on September 12, 2007, 05:19:17 PM
Not only didn't the history lessons do Bush the Younger any good, but the math, the English, the science, and a host of other subjects he muddled through during his education days didn't stick either.  They say he's smart.  Well, like a fox, he's cunning.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 13, 2007, 11:55:36 AM
Desdemona

Lest you forget: The great one has a degree in history from Yale---doesn't that scare the crap out of you?

So very bizarre and puzzling!  I went to LSU and had to work my backside off writing papers and doing research to get my degree in history.  Incredible amount of reading, especially in my senior year, none of it easy, along with writing, writing, and more writing.  You know Yale must be more difficult, even though LSU did and does have a very good history department.  So how on earth did Bush GRADUATE from YALE?!

I just don't buy it - they must have paid someone off or something, in a manner similar to the Kennedy's.

I have noticed recently that Bush's writers have him using the word "ideology" a lot.  I never noticed him using the word until about a year ago - I'm just waiting for him to slip up and say "idiotology". 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on September 13, 2007, 01:15:09 PM
Desdemona

Lest you forget: The great one has a degree in history from Yale---doesn't that scare the crap out of you?

So very bizarre and puzzling!  I went to LSU and had to work my backside off writing papers and doing research to get my degree in history.  Incredible amount of reading, especially in my senior year, none of it easy, along with writing, writing, and more writing.  You know Yale must be more difficult, even though LSU did and does have a very good history department.  So how on earth did Bush GRADUATE from YALE?!

I just don't buy it - they must have paid someone off or something, in a manner similar to the Kennedy's.

I have noticed recently that Bush's writers have him using the word "ideology" a lot.  I never noticed him using the word until about a year ago - I'm just waiting for him to slip up and say "idiotology". 


Legacy.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 13, 2007, 07:30:17 PM
``legacy``

Yup.

BobW + I struggled through law school. And believe you me, it was utter hell.

Republican Danny Quayle graduated from law school thanks to his wealthy dad's influence and finished dead last in his class ranking.

It's the old story: money can buy anything.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 13, 2007, 11:15:53 PM
A question of curiosity -

I am, as many know already, reading "The Discoverers" which Bob quoted from extensively during the discussion of 1421. The book clearly belong in Western History rather than American History. I am up to the time of Newton in scientific discoveries (left the discoveries of land and sea behind many chapters ago). I notice that in the time of Newton, science was still called Philosophy, but as far back as I can remember in my own life, Philosophy has been classed among the Arts not the Sciences. I will probably get to the time when the two parted ways, but, ask the question now anyway in case it isn't.

When did philosophy separate from science in the ordering of academic subjects?



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 14, 2007, 07:50:20 AM
Wiliam James?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 14, 2007, 10:05:47 AM
A question of curiosity -

I am, as many know already, reading "The Discoverers" which Bob quoted from extensively during the discussion of 1421. The book clearly belong in Western History rather than American History. I am up to the time of Newton in scientific discoveries (left the discoveries of land and sea behind many chapters ago). I notice that in the time of Newton, science was still called Philosophy, but as far back as I can remember in my own life, Philosophy has been classed among the Arts not the Sciences. I will probably get to the time when the two parted ways, but, ask the question now anyway in case it isn't.

When did philosophy separate from science in the ordering of academic subjects?



I don't know the answer to your question, but philosophy also involves complex logic - reference Descartes and others.  It is grouped in Arts and Sciences in the humanities if I remember correctly. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 14, 2007, 02:19:26 PM
Wiliam James?

Good answer but, in the American scheme of things, psychology as science divided from philosophy?

But the subject: World History, suggests my age old question of why the Greeks in the Golden Age  of their investigations and discoveries in science then reverted  to mythologies?  It was Alice Munro,a Scots-Canadian who dropped me a clue in one of her short stories, discussed with Colburn in the old haunt, when I pointed out she drops clues, and she named a textbook that she was reading on a train, (in character) as having taught Greek Classics so, I went back to check it out and it was used at Berkeley by a quite insistent philosopher during our McCarthy Era who wanted to indicate the parallels that the Golden Age of Science soon involved a repression ideologically and they resorted to mythos as code (which is an art-form in itself).

So, it does have early  roots, included in the Humanities curriculum, and I think helped push Berkeley toward the Free Speech movement. For those interested, check out the stories in Runaway which JONATHAN FRANZEN
reviewed on Nov.14,2004, an event which brought immediate letters of protest from the moral values Right in the column that was then devoted to Books and Reviews at The New York Times, Sunday Books


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 14, 2007, 06:57:47 PM
True, but I think it was either through James, or in his era at least that the separation of philosophy from the sciences occured

Let me see if I can find out ....


Title: Re: World History
Post by: johnr60 on September 14, 2007, 08:43:20 PM
Philosophy is involved with uncertainties.  As each science became certain of their position they broke from philosophy.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 14, 2007, 09:31:45 PM
John,

You may be onto it. As I read more last night, I got into the greater use of quantity over quality in judging science, and the return to reliance on the replicable experiment instead of the beautifully worded argument. So, it may have to do with the quantitization of science that moved it from one column to the next.

Bob,

I don't know which James you are referring to, so have no idea what era that could be. Sorry, I'm just not that academic. I am reading more in retirement than I did for many years. Many teachers are heavy readers during the summer, but I tended to spend my summers preparing materials for the students (that were not purchased by the district despite the need), and learning to use computers.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 14, 2007, 10:11:35 PM
William James was a Philosopher/Psychologist, in fact the  guy who developed the discipline of Psychology out of Philosopohy. He wrote PRAGMATISM and is generally the looked on as the father of the concept and the father of modern Psychology. He lived until about 1910 and was extremely influential in his day.  There's a new biography of him--which is why his name came to mind.

His brother was Henry James, novelist, who lived into the 1920's. Who was moire influential in his day is hard to say--but today William is more remembered. Henry wrote TURN OF THE SCREW & WASHINGTON SQUARE and numerous other works.  He's the guy who coined the term THEODORE REX to describe Theodore Roosevelt.

Their father was also very prominent....the entire family was very extraordinary...


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 14, 2007, 10:14:55 PM
Returning to the original question, after some very superficial reading, it may go back to Emanuel Kant---since its out of my realm, I'll leave it to others to come up with an answer.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: johnr60 on September 14, 2007, 11:04:10 PM
"He wrote PRAGMATISM and is generally the looked on as the father of the concept..."

I think you will find that even James gives that paternity to Charles Peirce


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 15, 2007, 12:05:17 AM
John,

Thanks. I was always taught that Freud was the father of psychiatry/psychology.

Theodore Rex would be an interesting title for Teddy Roosevelt. He did think himself the consumate leader of the country! I read his biography by Nathan Miller in recent months.

I may well like William James book on Pragmatism. I have generally prided myself on being more practical than philosophical. I'll add it to my "books to buy" list tonight.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 15, 2007, 12:42:35 AM
William James's Varieties of Religious Experience was a phenomenal study of the subject which was very popular in college back in the 60s and 70s.  As with much of the material we studied then, it has fallen into obscurity.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 15, 2007, 05:11:55 AM
Quote
I think you will find that even James gives that paternity to Charles Peirce

How true. But there's an interesting substory to it....My favorite book on the subject is THE METAPHYSICAL CLUB, which  has Peirce harkening back to Kant. Menand  quotes Kant's use of the term, if  not the concept, on page 227 and then says: "Kant  thought of "pragmatic belief" as one of several kinds of belief; Peirce thought it was the only kind of belief." Then, on page 228  Menand states: "So far, Peirce was only coining a philosophical term-pragmatism-for an idea already shared by  by Wright, Green, Holmes, and James (and for that matter by James Stephen and Alexander Bain)."

So Peirce has antecedents also.

Anyhow, on Page 347 Menand remarks "William James invented pragmatism as a favor to Charles Peirce. Peirce needed one. He then recounts a sorid tale of Peirce and his troubles and how James came to help him. The he recounts how James  "introduced the term "pragmatism" to the world," and quotes James giving  credit to Peirce.  "James's lecture made pragmatism a subject of internationsl discussion and debate for twenty years. " (See Menand, pages 347 to 351).

It was James, not Peirce , who brought Pragmatisam to the world. Though Peirce, who got it from Kant, delivered it to James, James gets the credit--without him Pragmatism  might never have reached the prominence it did. Peirce is little known today for several reasons....he was a sad character in history.

By the way the Menand book is an excellent study which should be read by all who wish to understand the era it covers, late 1800's into the early 1900's. It covers Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr, William James, Charles Sanders Peirce, and John Dewey.

Charles Sanders Peirce founded semiotics. Peirce's  question was "What does it mean to say that a statement is "true"  in a world always susceptible to a "certain swerving" ?  (Menand, 223)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on September 15, 2007, 05:17:21 PM
Quote
William James's Varieties of Religious Experience was a phenomenal study of the subject which was very popular in college back in the 60s and 70s.  As with much of the material we studied then, it has fallen into obscurity

That and Fanon's work were both very big when I was in college--first in late 60s, by time I went back late 70s, Marcuse & McLuhan were bigger.

I couldn't participate when the Menand work was being discussed in the NYT forum, so I'm happy to be reminded of it, thanks.   


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 15, 2007, 08:11:19 PM
nytempsperdu,

The discussion was taking place in the forums  at the time of 9/11 and came to a halt as the shock set in.    I found this out, from sheer curiosity as to how the forums responded that day; so, I looked it up because we were now too far removed from the event to gauge correctly how we had first reacted.  It was very strange reading  from the page, that is: on-line, about peoples' realizations.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 16, 2007, 11:22:15 AM
Quote
Philosophy is involved with uncertainties.  As each science became certain of their position they broke from philosophy.

Probably the best answer of all and as far as I can see thie trend began either late 18th or early 19th century.

By the way, in Richardson's biography of Henry James, on page 136, he says that Pragmatism was born and formed in Cambridge in the early 1870's in the Metaphysical Club. I'll have to look again in the text to see how much credit he gives Peirce.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: johnr60 on September 16, 2007, 03:29:18 PM
"In 1851, A. A. Cournot worked out a system which
introduced a separation between structural laws and
historical criteria in all their forms by employing three
great series of sciences, a theoretical, an historical, and
a practical series, each composed of the following kinds
of science: mathematical, physical, biological, mental
or symbolical, and political. Every branch of science
has its place in one of the three times five boxes in
columns."

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-57

see pragmatism at the same site


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 19, 2007, 02:56:45 AM
I'm rereading Ten Days That Shook The World intending to discuss it with lhoffman and any interested others in Oct. in Nonfiction.  It could be moved here or remain there.  Certainly, there's no shortage of books of interest and I'm grateful to whoever got this new thread started, and will try to follow even when unable to participate.  THANKS!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 19, 2007, 03:20:11 AM
There is a bit of a contretemps in that I find myself being pushed out of Nonfiction where I am discussing Peeling the Onion, I've been given a lot of static, and that is ultimately discouraging since, no one cares to believe that I asked permission in advance to discuss this biography, until they get a direct message from the administrator about their activities.   My perception was that he added a  second forum thread here to cover the variety of choices when people wanted to read something else such as Reed.  It is a bit embarrassing to have to contact him every day because people simply doubt my word and then indulge in saying a lot of ugly things that are uncalled for  since the distraction causes me to lose a lot of time. As of now because of the constant interruption, I have perhaps eleven days instead of the amount of time required for analyzing a personal history.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on September 19, 2007, 03:37:28 AM
Maddy, if you are, indeed, contacting the Admin every day about the dust up over in Non Fiction, it is you who have become an embarrassment.  And to bring the mess over here to World History is unreal.

First, I don't know where you got the idea that anyone had to ask Admin permission to discuss any book for any time period. That is not so.  Books are discussed as a consensus is made among posters to discuss them.  Your book choice had no such consensus, and now is not likely to ever have one.  It is obvious to everyone that you are reading and discussing the book entirely by yourself.

Maddy, please drop this matter.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 19, 2007, 07:07:58 AM
With the possibility that this will raise ire, I would like to remind that a poll can make the choice of a book clear to all posters. I am not seeing a concensus even being discussed, and I also am not seeing book choices recommended for this forum. There were a few in the beginning, but no concensus seems to have been reached. I will remind that with the poll, a concensus is reached rather quickly, and we go on to read the book (or not) and then discuss it.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 19, 2007, 05:38:39 PM
We've gathered  enough people here now for long enough to start considering a book. After all, as was pointed out this forum was started  to allow for discussions involving history in general--world history. I agree with weezo, its time to start....I have three suggestions:

OVER THE EDGE OF THE WORLD  by Lawrence Bergreen--Magellan's circumnavigation.

GUNS, GERMS, AND STEEL  by Jared Diamond---enough just to mention it.

GEORGE III--by Christopher Hibbert--a biography of our last king--and a very interesting man...covers much more than America.

All of these are available in paperback




Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 19, 2007, 05:48:06 PM
I'm reading a critical biography of Joseph Ratzinger---Benedict XVI--bringing into my mind that maybe we should consider a biogaphy of a Pope or a book on some period of the Papacy----Pius IX should create quite a discussion---as would Pius XII. Both Popes were involved  in the politics of their day.

There's a book out which I recently read covering the creation of Italy and the opposition of Pius IX had to it and how it affected the subsequent history of both the Papacy and Italy.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 19, 2007, 05:57:32 PM
The Pius IX Book is PRISONER OF THE VATICAN.  Here's a blurb on it:
Quote
"Modern Italy was founded... over the dead body of Pope Pius IX," writes Kertzer, author of the National Jewish Book Award-winning The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara (also a National Book Award finalist), in this riveting and fast-paced chronicle of the rise of the Italian state and the Vatican's forgotten battle against the nationalists to retain power over Rome. In 1870, Victor Emmanuel II, king of a newly united Italy, sought an agreement with Pius IX in which the pope would rule the Tiber's right bank while the king would govern the left bank. When the pope rejected this arrangement, Italian troops seized power in Rome and Pius IX sought refuge in the Vatican palaces, declaring himself a prisoner. Led by Garibaldi and aided by Catholic France, the nationalists gained control in 1878, and so angered were nationalists at Pius IX that in 1881 protesters almost succeeded in dumping his corpse into the Tiber. The animosity between the pope and the state continued until 1929, when Mussolini and the Vatican signed a concordat in which the Vatican recognized the legitimacy of the Italian state and the Vatican was granted the rights of a sovereign state. Kertzer, given access to newly opened Vatican archives, tells a first-rate tale of the political intrigues and corrupt characters of a newly emerging nation, offers history writing at its best, and provides insight into a little-known chapter in religious and political history. 16 pages of b&w photos, 5 maps. Agent, Ted Chichak. (Nov. 15) Copyright 2004 Reed Business Information


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 19, 2007, 06:10:26 PM
Thanks for making suggestions, Bob.

I like the idea of George III since I seem to be reading much in that era. But, the "Prisoner of the Vatican" also interests me. I got my check for the month today, and will soon be able to order some more books. Of course, hubby may point out that I haven't finished reading either the Discoverers or A Cross of Iron, neither of which book is on any discussions. And, I do want to get that book called something Folly, and learn a bit more about reading history.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 20, 2007, 04:42:59 AM
THE MARCH OF FOLLY  by Barbara Tuchman compares the American Revolution and Vietnam, among other things. She also has an excellent book called PRACTICING HISTORY, a series of her essays on various subjects, including history in general.

Why not tackle THE DISCOVERERS as the book to be discussed?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 20, 2007, 07:42:40 AM
Bob,

Thanks for straightening me out on what the Folly is about.

I would be delighted to discuss The Discoverers. You have already shared much about it, and as I sent through the passages on the land discoveries, I also shared some of my thoughts. The book is well written. It is thick, and the print is small, so it is a slow read. But, it is very enlightening!

I am up to the story of the beginning of the printing press and how it evolved from the whole wooden blocks to the movable type. There was an attempt in the beginning to make a printed book as much like a manuscript book as possible. As I went to sleep last night, I thought of the situation now with the Internet and the replacement of a lot of mundane reading from the screen rather than paper, and how often people still print out what they want to read rather than read it on screen and remember it.

This week, I put my website under Google Analytics to try to assess the traffic and what is popular and I need to create more of. I was studying the stats on my books last night, and noticed that those who access the books spend 2-3 minutes on the page, which is not long enough to read the story online, but is long enough to print the book for future reading. Apparently, that is still a preference for children's reading.

I think about the first time I read a book online. It was many years ago, when the Guttenberg Project was still adding titles on a monthly basis. They had just added a title of something special for Mother's Day, and that year, I was spending Mother's Day home alone, so pulled up the book, relaxed in a confy chair, and "turned the pages", by hitting the page down button with my big toe. We seem to be in the same crossover point now, in migrating reading to the screen, as they were back in the days when the were converting books from large hand-written manuscripts that had to sit on a lecturn to be read, to the portable books that could be read anywhere even on the side of a stream.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 20, 2007, 11:50:56 AM
I would love to read and discuss Tuchman's Practicing History.  A Tuchman book I have read that was discussed long before most of the people here were participating on the NYT is A Distant Mirror, which is about Europe in the Middle Ages - a wonderful narrative history that brings medieval society vividly to life.  Much more to my taste than Boorstin.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on September 20, 2007, 12:02:12 PM
I remember the Distant Mirror.  Those were the halcyon days of the NYTimes forum.  Recently received Kapuscinski's Travels with Herodotus.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 20, 2007, 03:35:13 PM
I bought Herodotus' Histories recently, dzimas.  I'm not very good at reading ancient history, though, especially primary sources.  I read several pages and put it down - I will return to it periodically.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 20, 2007, 04:00:58 PM
I read Histories many moons ago.  What esp struck me was the author's amdission that every value cherished in ancient Greece had its origin in  Egypt. 

For many years we Westerners have been taught that our brand of civilization began in Greece.  To the Greeks, it began in Egypt. History cannot be more clear.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 20, 2007, 04:38:08 PM
Herodotus doesn't seem to have first-hand information on his subject matter, though.  What I have read so far is based on what each warring side claims.  All of a sudden it's, "But the other side say this is what happened, etc...".  That's one of the chief criticisms of Herodotus - the preface points out that he has been called both the father of history and the father of lies. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on September 21, 2007, 12:58:45 AM
I don't know how much stock one can put in Herodotus, but he tells some pretty compelling stories.  Des, I would read Travels with Herodotus, as Kapuscinski is a wonderful writer and may inspire you to read Herodotus.  I have to admit I was drawn to Herodotus after reading The English Patient.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: bosox18d on September 21, 2007, 02:22:41 AM
I saw a book tonight that looks like a good read."Five Germanys I have Known" by Fritz Stern.Stern is or was a prof at Columbia and the book is a History/Autobio .His Jewish family fled the Nazis and the reviews make it sound like a very good very readable book.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on September 21, 2007, 02:36:46 AM
Herodotus doesn't seem to have first-hand information on his subject matter, though.  What I have read so far is based on what each warring side claims.  All of a sudden it's, "But the other side say this is what happened, etc...".  That's one of the chief criticisms of Herodotus - the preface points out that he has been called both the father of history and the father of lies. 

History and myth seemed inextricably interwoven at the time, so it is hard to discern one from the other when reading Herodotus' Histories.  I don't think the Greeks took such a hard eye to history the way leading academic historians do today, plus Herodotus had little more to go on other than conflicting accounts.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 21, 2007, 09:39:23 AM
dzimas -

Please tell me more about Travels with Herodotus.

Who is that in your new photo?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 21, 2007, 11:44:45 AM

I don't know how much stock one can put in Herodotus, but he tells some pretty compelling stories.  Des, I would read Travels with Herodotus, as Kapuscinski is a wonderful writer and may inspire you to read Herodotus.  I have to admit I was drawn to Herodotus after reading The English Patient.


I am intrigued how you made the jump from Ondaatje(or, Anthony Minghella, as the case may be)?  Although I did get some facets on Rommel's field of operations from the German archivist at Western Europe forum who was a god-send to me. The very real Hungarian count is the connection. After all that, I was a little disappointed in Ondaatje's actual book; particularly after we had observed how carefully the English Patient, himself, preserved his memories in his small but stuffed bulging diary*.  But poet that Ondaatje is(as well as novelist of atrocity and hypocrisy re: racial alienation by Empire)he takes a different direction from what Minghella gives us, particularly with his Sikh sapper who has been loyal, and compassionate, and enlightened, which is why one would suppose the Canadian nurse, who was equally so enlightened,compassionate, and loyal, would enjoy his company during the liberation of Italy.

Ondaatje allows his character, I like the idea of demolition myself, to discover something eventual with the end of "the World War"; about the Bomb that has been dropped in Nagasaki and Hiroshima upon people of the non-white races. It sets him off for an Ondaatje statement with which to end his small book; Minghella stays away from it with a ten foot pole. I suspect, he wanted to continue making movies.

Like thanatopsy, I read Herodotus when I was young enough to enjoy his equal credit to the Egyptians; a chapter on their Greek lineage by Roman"time" is probably more logically Suetonius unless I got it from Thornton Wilder. Or, maybe just my friend Persephone Soteriades who told me about Ptolemy Soter.
But whomever the other historian read concurrently, it sure makes the character
of Marc Antony far more understandable as to those battles at sea.  I always suspected that Minos at Crete took the trade route to Egypt along with Phoenicia revealed a bit in the travels of Herodotus. Which reminds me,about that asterisk,that Almasy's day-book to keep his bearings was that odd-shaped copy of Herodutus, geographically; as Count Lazlo Almasy, culturally was habituated to using the handy "handbuch", even if he did speak English.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 21, 2007, 03:54:03 PM
Herodotus doesn't seem to have first-hand information on his subject matter, though.  What I have read so far is based on what each warring side claims.  All of a sudden it's, "But the other side say this is what happened, etc...".  That's one of the chief criticisms of Herodotus - the preface points out that he has been called both the father of history and the father of lies. 


He could not possibly have had first hand knowledge since he was writing about events that took place at least 500-600 years before he was born. Egyptian sources do reveal, however, that the names of gods, goddesses, or other cultural phenomena do correspond with those used by Egyptian historians.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 21, 2007, 04:02:28 PM
Herodotus doesn't seem to have first-hand information on his subject matter, though.  What I have read so far is based on what each warring side claims.  All of a sudden it's, "But the other side say this is what happened, etc...".  That's one of the chief criticisms of Herodotus - the preface points out that he has been called both the father of history and the father of lies. 


He could not possibly have had first hand knowledge since he was writing about events that took place at least 500-600 years before he was born. Egyptian sources do reveal, however, that the names of gods, goddesses, or other cultural phenomena do correspond with those used by Egyptian historians.

Hmmm.  Okay, my bad.  Guess I should revisit the excellent introduction in my volume - I'm not very knowledgable about ancient sources, obviously.  I've spent a lifetime reading just about any type of history except ancient, with an occasional foray into a biography (Caligula, for instance). 



Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 21, 2007, 05:26:08 PM

Herodotus doesn't seem to have first-hand information on his subject matter, though.  What I have read so far is based on what each warring side claims.  All of a sudden it's, "But the other side say this is what happened, etc...".  That's one of the chief criticisms of Herodotus - the preface points out that he has been called both the father of history and the father of lies. 


He could not possibly have had first hand knowledge since he was writing about events that took place at least 500-600 years before he was born. Egyptian sources do reveal, however, that the names of gods, goddesses, or other cultural phenomena do correspond with those used by Egyptian historians.


I don't know if I dare but--pst,just between you and me...weezo could have stumbled on to something.  Can I say this? When Herodotus "traveled"(ready for this?) sometime he traveled by sea. Shock!

As I said it has been a long time(four decades) since reading H. and while looking into refreshing material for the mind, I fell right into it.   He reports sailors going around the coast of an extremely abbreviated "Africa"(as we call it), with Libya looming large, which I can understand because there is a great book by Arias(will have to check that name and his author's, from an encyclopedia of European History ) that goes into this matter of the Greek settlements in  North Africa, he's pinpointing how they ringed the Mediterranean,take Marseilles for instance, and then the Roman settlements follow as night unto day since they enslaved the Greeks.

Herodotus maps to Egypt and around the bend at what we call the Gulf of Aden(since there was no Suez but, from Egypt, you could proceed on the Red Sea to the Gulf; at which point his Africa had no elephant's trunk. That unexplored territory is just a bulbous blob).

The sailors report seeing the sun on their right.   But when, but when?
I'm too exhausted today to attempt contemplation of navigation.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 21, 2007, 05:31:08 PM
Oops, I made an error as well: I should have written that the Egyptian names used by Herodotus in his book correspond with those used by Egyptian historians.  Therefore, some corroboration exist among all of those sources.

Caligula -- haven't read any books on the subject but have seen quite a few presentations on the History Channel about that subject. It does appear to be quite fascinating.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on September 22, 2007, 01:48:48 AM
Maddie, it was pretty easy.  Ondaatje extensively referred to Herodotus in the novel.

Des, will tell you more as I read more.  Just received the book and like very much how it begins.  But then I like Kapuscinski.  That is David Duchovny as Agent Denise Bryson from Twin Peaks.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on September 22, 2007, 06:50:57 AM
This book caught my eye, Plato and a Platypus Walk into a Bar: Understanding Philosophy Through Jokes  ,

http://amazon.com/Plato-Platypus-Walk-into-Understanding/dp/081091493X/ref=pd_ts_c_th_1/002-4086232-9828850?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=right-5&pf_rd_r=0TD42ZWDJCQ3MXDDGG9Z&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=310815601&pf_rd_i=507846

Made me think of Henry Miller's Tropic of Capricorn, where one of his friends liked to chat up Plato and other philosophers in the local bar.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 22, 2007, 07:36:30 AM
Dzimas

Here are two extremely different views of what happened to Herodotus when Saul Zaentz,film impressario got ahold of Ondaatje's novel which I read in the Knopf(1992)edition. Zaentz made Minghella rewrite it. Thus one gets two different experiences, depending much on whether you saw the movie and became interested in the book; or, as a reader of Ondaatje, went "Huh?", getting used to his version of "prose-poetry" which I was myself very interested in exploring back in the 1960's.

I think that two paperbacks further confuse or illuminate, depending on what you want, as the original Ondaatje gets paperbacked, but likewise apparently is that screenplay out there in paperback for those who loved the film.

http://www.bostonreview.net/BR22.1/stone.html

Attention: Thanatopsy         
The reviewer is alert to what Ondaatje did in terms of post-colonial literature and discusses that explicitly,and the writer's reasons for Kip's/character's disillusionment as Ondaatje works himself into who Kip is.  I had originally recognized that Ondaatje's name is Dutch, before getting to know that he was the colonial of the Dutch colonist experience.

So then, here is the original and how it reads before Minghella rewrote it by writing a film screenplay/script. This sample of the writing as I read it back then brings it all back to me as a very odd little book indeed.

http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780679416784&view=excerpt


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 22, 2007, 04:00:24 PM
Thanotopsy, more on Libya from Herodotus led to this page.

http://www.usd.edu/~clehmann/pir/berbers.htm


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 22, 2007, 04:30:07 PM
I was still looking for my French historians on this matter when I found the above; the original source page which I must go back to check further has a reference to Ibn Battuta(short version of his name)as a Libyan, known as the author of: Travels of a Tangerine.  That was brought up for reading vote in whence from which we were exiled but didn't make the cut although two or three people perhaps read it or looked it over for further study and or future reading.

Interestingly enough the German at Western Europe forum gave me some interesting maps at the time, which I may still have, besides his insights on Lazlo Almasy  as a spy for the Germans pre-Rommel's  panzer divisions as they needed somebody to map out the deserts as carefully as possible, first by air-observations and the weather conditions of course, which is why Raf Fiennes delivers the lines about the different kinds of wind in the desert( as he courts the wife of the English spy) which would end tank advancements by Rommel.

The fellow-poster from Germany was apparently a devoted Catholic, and he may have said something about being a seminary student prior to going to college in Ste.Germaine,Paris


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 22, 2007, 04:56:10 PM
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herod-libya1.html
Ancient History Sourcebook:
Herodotus (c.490-c.425 BCE):
On Libya, from The Histories, c. 430 BCE
"Thus from Egypt as far as Lake Tritonis Libya is inhabited by wandering tribes, whose drink is milk and their food the flesh of animals. Cow's flesh, however, none of these tribes ever taste, but abstain from it for the same reason as the Egyptians, neither do they any of them breed swine. Even at Cyrene, the women think it wrong to eat the flesh of the cow, honoring in this Isis, the Egyptian goddess, whom they worship both with fasts and festivals. The Barcaean women abstain, not from cow's flesh only, but also from the flesh of swine. West of Lake Tritonis the Libyans are no longer wanderers, nor do they practice the same customs as the wandering people, or treat their children in the same way."...

"...The rites which the wandering Libyans use in sacrificing are the following. They begin with the ear of the victim, which they cut off and throw over their house: this done, they kill the animal by twisting the neck. They sacrifice to the Sun and Moon, but not to any other god. This worship is common to all the Libyans. The inhabitants of the parts about Lake Tritonis worship in addition Triton, Neptune, and Minerva, the last especially. The dress wherewith Minerva's statues are adorned, and her Aegis, were derived by the Greeks from the women of Libya. For, except that the garments of the Libyan women are of leather, and their fringes made of leathern thongs instead of serpents, in all else the dress of both is exactly alike. The name too itself shows that the mode of dressing the Pallas-statues came from Libya. For the Libyan women wear over their dress stripped of the hair, fringed at their edges, and colored with vermilion; and from these goat-skins the Greeks get their word Aegis (goat-harness). I think for my part that the loud cries uttered in our sacred rites came also from thence; for the Libyan women are greatly given to such cries and utter them very sweetly. Likewise the Greeks learnt from the Libyans to yoke four horses to a chariot.
All the wandering tribes bury their dead according to the fashion of the Greeks,..."

Thanatopsy, you were right about the names of the gods or in so far as Herodotus compared them when he points out that Libya is tangential to Egypt.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 22, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
Thanotopsy, more on Libya from Herodotus led to this page.

http://www.usd.edu/~clehmann/pir/berbers.htm


Berbers!  A fascinating people known as the Amazigh or ''children of the Amazons''.

http://www.amazigh-voice.com/history.htm



Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 22, 2007, 11:03:06 PM
They may also be the children of Atlantis (Atalantes); at least by modern day standards of belief in such things.  I first heard about the Berbers, about 1954,or '55 but in regard to Algeria and the Atlas Mountains. I met a friend from there, or at least she had been raised there until the Allies took North Africa, as she was Parisienne by birth until the arrival of the Nazi occupation when her parents took her south to Nice  and then crossed over on the ferry to Algeria.  Before that her father had practiced law on the Ile de Cite and they had an apartment right over the little bridge to Ile St. Louis, those two adjoining islands in the Seine river a little to the southeast of Notre Dame.

She married a G.I and became a war bride. Coincidence is often strange, her husband had been an orphan raised in the same building( some years earlier) that had been the dormitory where I went to school two or three  years before I met them.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 23, 2007, 02:07:36 PM
I see a faint ray here for something by Barbara Tuchman or Herodotus. A couple or three have brought up both. If we stick at this point to both subjects we might be able to choose a book in another couple of days.

My preference at this point is Tuchman, but I'll go the other way if the others so decide. (I'm easy)

MARCH OF FOLLY has to do with " the recurrent pursuit by governments of policies contrary to their interests." Chapters included are on Troy, Renaissance Popes provoking the Protestant Secession,The American Revolution, and lastly, the American Experience in Vietnam.

PRACTICING HISTORY  has Tuchman's essay, or thoughts, on various subjects--The Craft of History (what history is and how history happens). The Yield of History, blurbs on Japan in Manchuria, FDR, Pericardis, Eichman, Israel, Wilson, WWI, Mao, Morganthau and Israel,  & Henry Kissinger. Then she has an essay on  Mankind's Better Moments. The last section is on Learning from History and includes thought as to whether history is a guide to the future, and on Vietnam, and on Watergate and why policy makers do not listen (not in depth as it is merely 7 pages long).

These are essays ranging from 1936 though 1976--they'll make you think.

Anyhow, that's Tuchman

We can also go Herotodus

What say you all?   We need a decision so we can be at it  in , say, the next three weeks.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 23, 2007, 02:09:17 PM
Decide now...Decide now


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 23, 2007, 02:15:05 PM
Bob,

I'll got with Tuchman, perhaps both her essays and the book on the Vietnam war. My budget is open to buying some books again, and perhaps I will combine these two with the suggestion in American History on the John Marshall decisions. I could add that information to my Famous Americans page on him. Give a nice twist to the usual platitudes.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 23, 2007, 05:22:14 PM
I don't know why I thought that I had, The March of Folly , around here?

Instead what I have is -- The First Salute.   I can still see the other cover clearly in my mind,the shape,size and feel of the book, so I will keep on looking.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on September 24, 2007, 12:06:28 AM
The First Salute was disappointing after reading other Tuchman books.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 24, 2007, 12:42:04 AM
That's what I thought too. Which is why I didn't realize that I had it and assumed that I had -- The March of Folly.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on September 25, 2007, 05:42:15 AM
I like Hobsbawm myself.  His Age of Extremes is an excellent summing up of the 20th century, assuming one accepts his point of view,

http://www.amazon.com/Age-Extremes-History-World-1914-1991/dp/0679730052/ref=pd_bbs_2/105-5791205-4542015?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190713254&sr=1-2


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on September 25, 2007, 09:56:58 AM
I'll go with Tuchman'sPracticing History.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on September 26, 2007, 04:31:08 AM
Prince of Marshes was highly recommended to me,

(http://www.epic-usa.org/Portals/1/prince_of_the_marshes.JPG)
http://www.amazon.com/Prince-Marshes-Other-Occupational-Hazards/dp/0156032791/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-5791205-4542015?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190795408&sr=1-1

as one of the more insightful accounts of present-day Iraq.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on September 26, 2007, 05:37:29 AM
I'll second the Rory Stewart book.  I want to read it.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on September 26, 2007, 04:59:28 PM
I'll stick with Fanon --- it's very easy reading, yet profound, and very relevant to today's headlines.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 28, 2007, 05:25:04 AM
Let's go with THE MARCH OF FOLLY followed by THE PRINCE OF MARSHES--this way we can do a study of sorts of the march of folly, going from Troy to Baghdad. We can use the PRINCE OF MARSHES as a continuation of the MARCH OF FOLLY. Can we start October 10th?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 29, 2007, 05:17:18 PM
Does silence imply agreement?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 29, 2007, 07:45:03 PM
Have I chased everyone away?   I'm just trying to get things going....


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on September 29, 2007, 07:50:51 PM
It is Saturday, Bob. That's all it is.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on September 29, 2007, 08:00:31 PM
 ::)  That's funny.....and you're probably right, it's Saturday and there's nothing more to it than that....


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on September 29, 2007, 08:26:25 PM
Bob,

I am in agreement. I like the idea of reading two books by the same author back to back. It providess a nice continuum of ideas.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on September 30, 2007, 04:46:34 AM
Bob, I ordered March of Folly (paperback, I can't find my cloth copy of Tuchman's book high or low) and the Rory Stewart book (also in paperback) about his year in Southern Iraq among the marsh people (Saddam Hussein drained most of those marshes, may he burn in hell).  From what little I know, these people were gentle and non war like, with a lifestyle that was quite apart from other Iraqis.  I'll have both the end of this coming week.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 02, 2007, 05:33:40 AM
Do we have any other takers?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 03, 2007, 11:22:32 AM
Bob,

Picked up March, yesterday. Now, I will find the original under the love-seat...


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 03, 2007, 06:28:11 PM
I ordered both Tuchman books two days ago. They will come when they come, and I will follow the discussion until they do.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 06, 2007, 01:30:25 PM
Bob, speaking of Rory Stewart's book about the marsh people, here's an article from today's Opinion page at the NYT about a group of people, living in (or were) that same area that I had never heard of.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/opinion/06deutsch.html?ref=opinion

These Gnostics are fast becoming extinct.  Interesting history.  So much going on in the world . . . how can we identify all these problems much less address them?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: oskylad on October 06, 2007, 04:02:07 PM
The Mandeans mentioned in the New York Times article claim to follow the teachings of John the Baptist, and reject Jesus as a false prophet.  They have been around for nearly 2,000 years. 

There is an interesting summary of their faith here:  http://altreligion.about.com/library/faqs/bl_mandeism.htm


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 06, 2007, 04:24:05 PM
Isn't Mandeanism an offshoot of Sabeianism?  Gnosticism, of course, is a belief system that Creation was a negative act--that man was basically evil and that only the holders of the truth would be saved. Gnosis means knowledge in Greek---holders of the knowledge would be saved. Sabeanim goes way back beyond John the Baptist, into Babylonian lore I believe----I'll stop there before I get further confused.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 06, 2007, 04:51:21 PM
It took a little while to track down, but here';s a link to unconfuse things:

http://www.classicalcatholic.com/cathen/n/nasoraeans.htm


Title: Re: World History
Post by: oskylad on October 06, 2007, 07:22:36 PM
Bob - Your source is dated.

Check out Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism
or the Encyclopaedia of the Orient: http://lexicorient.com/e.o/mandeans.htm

The Encyclopaedia of the Orient says the Mandean religion "could be a continuation of traditions from Mesopotamia, or Palestine, or both.  [It] could be pre-Christian, or it could date to 1st or 2nd century CE.  It could actually be John the Baptist who founded the sect, or they could be a continuation of the Jewish sect that John the Baptist belonged to (guessed by some to be the Essenes).

"However, elements of their language indicate that the community is of Jewish origin.

"One of the texts of the Mandeans tell about a flight of a group called 'Nasoreans', from areas that probably were in today's Jordan, to the Mesopotamian region, in the times of the Jewish wars following the destruction of Jerusalem in year 70 CE."


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 06, 2007, 07:48:06 PM
Thanks for the links. I distrust Wikopedia, though I read it anyway. I disagree with the proposition that the sect or group is Gnostic While its roots are Gnostic, they certainly aren't the Gnostics we always read about, rather its gnostic (lower case)--the same type of belief system. Over the years, like anything else, the religion has developed into something other than it started out to be--much in the same way Christianity has. it sort of dooms itself in the very long run by allowing no new converts...but this latest development is extremely serious as it could kill  it completely.

Though the Catholic Encyclopedia is dated (1913), its a great source for basic historical information. The challenge, of course, is to pick up things from 1913 and bring them forward----your site sort of does that, though I disagree with some of its propositions.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 08, 2007, 01:02:10 AM
Quote
a group called 'Nasoreans'

Mighty close to Nazarenes?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: oskylad on October 08, 2007, 02:50:33 AM
Some have tried to make such a connection. 

Others suggest that the term "Nasoreans" means "guardians" or "possessors" (nasuraiyi), i.e. of secret knowledge; and is separate and distinct from the followers of Jesus of Nazareth.  See: http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/article_mandaeans.html 
  
I would hold to the latter, but am no expert.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 10, 2007, 08:47:41 AM
It is strange how our thoughts were on this same subject. I was working on this same material late that night because of a question of a quote that came up in Fiction presently as an adunct of something which I tried to discuss once before.  After slaving a way on it, since it did have to do with an argument about "those other gnostics" in the Western tradition, about which my opponent had previously voiced the contention that by not propogating that pretty well proved them heretical because they hadn't survived, and since my opponent in the argument hadn't the insight to see which adaptions would be made under further historical influences to continue this line which willingly opposed orthodoxy in terms of divine right of kings(for instance), I had to lay out the format once again from where I'd left off originally.

Then, when I finally posted, although I found something a little strange about the page, I found the next morning that web-site had been hacked!  This morning , I find my post not in evidence at all.

I saved it however, and I'm posting again. Primarily because this material has to do with "redactors"; which was discussed in review at the New York Times and since seems to be unavailable.  I felt if I had to recompose the links for the materials, I'd go for it.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 10, 2007, 09:09:32 AM

Bob, speaking of Rory Stewart's book about the marsh people, here's an article from today's Opinion page at the NYT about a group of people, living in (or were) that same area that I had never heard of.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/opinion/06deutsch.html?ref=opinion

These Gnostics are fast becoming extinct.  Interesting history.  So much going on in the world . . . how can we identify all these problems much less address them?


My thoughts exactly. Of course in the case of these particular Mandean gnostics we will have to address the problem since those who okayed this Bush war into existence are responsible for it.

Only other material that I have not yet found of mine, as posted the night the lights went out at Melba's Place with the Hacking Moment, was posted to you but I didn't save a copy because it was historically nothing heavier than what went on at the The Village Gate back in that century.Something about pooled tips and taxes.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 10, 2007, 09:59:54 AM
Maddy, I also posted in several discussions in the wee hours of Oct 8th only to learn that they disappeared with the hack job.  Who would want to hack a discussion site with only 245 members (heavy on sports) and free access to read only for guests?  Some disgruntled whosis that took offense at some other poster's remarks about their team?  Whatever.  I still have a red X where the Escape From Elba embossed over the logo should be, and some silly statement out to the right about this being a "simple machines forum".  And, the "messages since last visit" doesn't work for me, either. Drat.

Now the Post Office has delivered my March of Folly and the Rory Stewart book about the marsh people to some other person, since the tracking shows it delivered but I sure as hell didn't get it.  Whoever the bastard was, he wasn't honest or he'd have given the package back to the Postman.

I'm just in a state of ruin and can not be consoled.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 10, 2007, 11:03:35 AM
Buck up, old chum, we are all having something of the kind, more or less, for me it began "right from the  git-go" or when everything on the agenda for October was flummoxed or went awry and I predicted," oh, it will be one of those years when Halloween will be special...".


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 10, 2007, 01:58:44 PM
Since today is the tenth and I have an idea some of the readers haven't finished the book or won't have a fair opportunity to read same by October 15----do we want to extend thestarting date--say by at least five days until the 20th--or even to the 22nd?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: johnr60 on October 10, 2007, 02:26:00 PM
Quote
Mighty close to Nazarenes?
Too close for me too, to not keep glossing in mind.
Robert Graves King Jesus maintains that Jesus was an Essene.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-5.htm

http://essenes.net/subindex2.htm


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 10, 2007, 07:49:14 PM
All three are intertwined as I remember. Christ was an Essene, which was part of the Jewish faith. The early followers of Christ we not known as Christians, but as Nazarenes/Nazoreans..coming from Nazareth and believing in rather abstenious ways of life and conservative life styles. So Nazorenes were sort of Essenes of a particular sort or nature.  A Nazorene, that is, had a certain set of beliefs. It was only later the term "Christian" came into play. 

(I hope I was clear, its a thing which needs to be explained rather carefully).


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 11, 2007, 10:35:55 AM

Quote
Mighty close to Nazarenes?
Too close for me too, to not keep glossing in mind.
Robert Graves King Jesus maintains that Jesus was an Essene.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-5.htm

http://essenes.net/subindex2.htm


"As to the graphic picture of the Gospels, which suggests the sudden arising of a solitary wild figure unconnected with any community or order, a feature so strongly stressed also by the Slavonic Josephus," --from the Internet Sacred Texts Archive (which I gather exists to sell books at Amazon?) caused me pause to reflect that a Slavonic Josephus must be a reference to how the record of Josephus as an historian was carried by the missionaries(disciples) into what we later know as "Slavonic regions".  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02300a.htmm

Josephus himself was a general in the Jewish-Roman wars who was captured by Flavius Vespasian and his son Titus; and as his client was known among the Romans as Titus Flavius Josephus.

"His first work in Rome was an account of the Jewish War, addressed to certain "upper barbarians" – usually thought to be the Jewish community in Mesopotamia – in his "paternal tongue" (War I.3), arguably the Western Aramaic language." [wikipedia]

These would be the Mandeneans of Basra.

He then wrote the Bellum Judaicum, in seven volumes


This is a good source from the Hebrew University at Jerusalem:
http://www.dinur.org/resources/resourceCategoryDisplay.aspx?categoryid=433&rsid=478


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deadsea.html

As to this last reference on the Essenes, although they are a sect who were anti-Roman accommodation and may have preserved some of the Temple (priestly) library from the time of the Destruction of the Temple during the Roman conquest of Jerusalem, the period recorded by Flavius Josephus who was a participant in these wars, this does not in any way entirely recommend a contemporary popular belief that  Jesus of Nazareth was a probationer among the Essenes for what is sometimes noted in the New Testament as a three year period in the desert. This idea became current following a banning of Kazantakis book by the Greek Orthodox Church(which many of us read nonetheless) which inspired Martin Scorsese to produce a film that was widely protested in the US. There is also no connection between Middle Eastern Nasoreans and the Nazareans who were contemporaries of Jesus of Nazareth in his lifetime.

This desert imagery such as " the sudden arising of a solitary wild figure", usually referring to the cousin of Jesus, John the Baptist, given in quoted opening paragraph above, was a frequent concept that derives from the period before the Law was given by Moses descending from the mountain and  continuing the journey to the Promised Land which he did not live to see; it refers to the ancient tradition of sending Azazel, the scape-goat,into the wilderness, bearing the sins of the people.

You may find this hard to believe but at some point in early 2006, the idea of reading Josephus the Historian was suggested by francesassa in the book forums of the nytimes.com; desdemona may recall the back and forth on that vote before the idea was dropped. isabel_k was still with us in those days and favored discussion of some aspects of the war including the mass suicide at Masada rather than captivity by the 10th Roman Legion.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 11, 2007, 10:48:30 AM
Ps, to johnr60

Although I've read Robert Graves extensively ever since being introduced to his The White Goddess and kept it up well into the late 1960s because of his connections to the Bloomsbury circle through the Aldingtons, and the references of all the interconnections among them given in D.H. Lawrence including Bertrand Russell, I consider this just period reading research in British Literature. Undoubtably an interesting poet, Robert Graves would be poetically inclined to like the stretch of including the idea of Jesus among the Essenes just as Nikos Kazantakis did. They are both extremely interesting writers in their own way, one a poet, the other of historical fiction,  but as a Greek, Kazantakis was willing to contest the Greek Orthodox Church. Robert Graves was an Englishman, if you get my meaning, and as the English do appreciate their poets that's about it for any proven historicity of a poets allusions.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: johnr60 on October 11, 2007, 12:35:42 PM
Quote
that's about it for any proven historicity

As I believe all history is fiction I prefer mine that way and especially not from writings within elitist peer groups (not that you intended that).

If you want to know about Caligula read Graves, Alexander, read Renault.

Those wild figures ar all over the last half of the first millenium BC.  Jaynes attributes it to the breakdown of the bicameral mind--wild idea but I havent heard a better one.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 11, 2007, 02:33:33 PM
johnr60

Sorry, but the wild figure to which I was referring is Azazel, the Scape Goat, which was a real goat that the Jews released into the wilderness as a sin-offering. To this day, the ram's horn is blown to announce the beginning of the new year which began one lunar month ago.

As such this very real creature prefigures the appearance of John the Baptist, whom you might say  in his person reflects the earlier scape-goat, especially when Salome's mother tells her daughter to request his head as a gift for having danced for Herod at his request; why ?, because John has "bad mouthed" her.

As  I said, I've read Graves, I've read about  and seen performances about Caligula; and, although I have not read Renault on Alexander, the world is not without historic materials for anyone who has read Greek history or literature. In fact if we don't look out, just the thought may alert the mind of that great Albanian from the Bronx who is destined to return at any time by vibration and tell us about Macedonians and himself as he did for years at the nytimes.com

You don't happen to have regularly attended there when Theta conducted the Myth and Ancient Literature forum did you?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 11, 2007, 02:38:27 PM
 To which other "elitist peer groups" then were you referring?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: johnr60 on October 11, 2007, 03:12:54 PM
Quote
Sorry, but the wild figure to which I was referring is Azazel,

Yes, we spoke of different things.

Quote
You don't happen to have regularly attended there when Theta conducted the Myth and Ancient Literature forum did you?

Yes I lurked there--found it uninspiring and dictatorial.  Who was the Bronx Albanian?

Quote
To which other "elitist peer groups" then were you referring?

I refer to any academic discipline that believes that the proper knowledge of a subject is only within their group.  What comes to mind is news reporter Elaine Morgan's 20 year old description of mammalian sea creatures being reported as new a few years ago by anthropologists or the complete dismissal of De Santillan's work by astronomers and cultural anthropologists.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 12, 2007, 02:46:33 PM
So, you weren't in Theta's group?   She was a brilliant lady, much to liberal for you, perhaps?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: johnr60 on October 12, 2007, 03:44:39 PM
I think my unflexed knee was viewed as an attitude problem.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 12, 2007, 08:23:56 PM
Quote
I believe all history is fiction

If history is all fiction, then nothing can be accepted as truth, or even an attempt at it. The past then ceases to be a memory  of  any relevance and must be discounted as containing any modicom of reality. Everybody's version of the past must then be given equal relevance, but must never be given any credence. The discipline then collapses in a state of chaos. There's no use searching the past if its all fiction.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: johnr60 on October 12, 2007, 10:19:34 PM
Well Bob, I'm not equipped on this Friday nite to give a proper response, but I promise I'll do better.  I think we're about the same age and I will ask (as an example) was the history of the Civil War presented in school a better representation than Crane's?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 12, 2007, 10:49:00 PM
John,

The history of the Civil War is one of the most controversial subjects in schools both historically and today. Much depends on what part of the country you go to school in. Even in a Virginia college, in American History, I heard the myths about "states rights" as the primary cause of the Civil War (in its many interesting nomenclature). I had heard otherwise growing up in Pennsylvania, thank goodness, so I was able to absorb the "new ideas" as interesting diversions from the truth. It is only in the past decade or so that Virginia schools are now teaching that the Civil War was fought over slavery, and I'd bet that there are many crusty ole' Virginians who insist on telling their students "the truth" that they mislearned themselves.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 13, 2007, 10:46:07 AM
But John, you just answered the question. Since under the theory that history is fiction, the Civil War is fiction and if its fiction, then it matters not how it was taught anywhere---its not the truth anyway--so who cares how its taught or presented?

By posing the question concerning theCivil War you are admitting by implication that history is not fiction. The problem, rather, is how history is recorded or reported. Its existence is established. I can agree with that proposition because I believe that each generation VIEWS history differently--that is, from their perspective. That's human nature. But history is very real and the search for whatever one defines as the truth is a never ending process. I have tons of American History books, all giving their version of given events--but the events occured--they are not a figment of imagination. The circumstances surrounding the events is what is discussed or argued about and that is what makes history so interesting.

Abraham Lincoln existed. I have thirty or more versions of his life---all non-fiction. I also have sixty or more volumes on the Civil War outside of textual stuff. The Civil War occurred, its not fiction--its history, reality. How that reality played out is a matter of dispute and dicussion and will be until life ends on the planet--but that doesn't mean its fiction. The view of the War I was taught in the 50's is discredited in some instances and in other instances confirmed and enhanced through further research. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how life is led on the planet.

I work in a field in which there has been much progress over the last 25 years.Some of what I told people 25 years  ago is now considered laughable--did I lie to them? Was it all fiction? I have no doubt that what I believe to be true right now is not going to be accepted as the truth in the future. Do I stop lecturing--and inform people that thirty years from  now will be a bunch of crap--or do I continue to tell the truth as I see it and as its accepted? We can only relate what we know at the present and what we believe to be truth--we can't devine future perceptions of the present.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 13, 2007, 12:01:12 PM
Amen, Brother Bob.

BTW, Dallas, Texas schools, where I grew up, gave me the impression that the South had won the War (Civil War).  So much did I believe this inferrence, I got into more than one fist fight in Colorado schools where I had transferred after my father moved us North.  Only slowly did I come to know the truth and was humiliated afterward that "my" side had lost.  Of course, maturity brought with it further reading on the subject and I discovered the South's reasons for war were not now mine.

Many times and on many issues I have been "behind the curve," which I have been led to believe is where dummies gather.  Maybe so, but the Rubicon awaits those who would act too soon, too unwisely, or as Churchill said, "It's better to jaw, jaw than war, war."  As sunlight illuminates motes of dust, so are the many prisms through which a thing can be viewed.  I say, "bring it on," wonderfully exhilarating, terrible, tragic history.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: johnr60 on October 13, 2007, 01:04:15 PM
We're not definming fiction the same way Bob.  You're using it as not factual while my intent was a writing style.

Eco talks someplace about using a computer program to determine the weather on a specific day in one of his novels but the actions of his characters on that day, whether they be Lincolns or Tremains is speculation.  Not much different than a historian would do.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 13, 2007, 01:43:36 PM
Donot,

Thanks for sharing that amusing bit about your fisticuffs over the result of the civil war.

Reminds of my surprise, when I began researching a civil war battle that took place a few miles from where we live, to discover that black troops were employed by the south. Whaaaaat! Yessirreee! Some volunteered, including freemen, some were instructed to do so by their owners, some bore arms, some just cooked and kept uniforms tidy. Hubby, who saw the facts unfold for me over weeks of research, accepted it as fact without question, but when I mentioned it to his brother, his brother exploded and told me that it was just "Lies that I was taught in that Yankee school I went to". Indeed, there was no mention of it in my college American History course taken in Virginia. But, eventually, I saw a photo taken in Richmond, where by brother-in-law lives, on the day of the battle I was researching, showing the formation of a black unit marching proudly in Richmond. They were embattled at Saylor's Creek, the bloody battle that preceded Appomattox by days.

As a teacher, it always amazes me to see what sticks in a person's mind long after education, whether it is a perception that the south was victorious in the civil war, or that the holocaust never happened. We can pole the "man-on-the-street", and find out how few remember the date that Columbus landed in America, but then there are those who will end up resorting to fisticuffs to defend something else that they learned that stuck with them. Fascinating!!!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 13, 2007, 06:56:16 PM
Quote
the actions of his characters on that day, whether they be Lincolns or Tremains is speculation.  Not much different than a historian would do.

I disagree---the historian is bound to do his best to find out what Lincoln did on that particular day--the writer in fiction is bound opnly to keep his character "in character"  and if he wants him "out of character," is free to do so, since the character (whether based on a real person or not) is in the control of the writer---not so with an historian--who is searching for truth, not a well written or presented book.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 13, 2007, 08:39:35 PM
On the other hand and in all fairness, a good fiction piece on any historical event will always make the events and people  more alive than a standard historical rendition. But thereare extremes to it like anything else. When a fictional character was introduced into Morris' biography of Ronald Reagan, the biography was discredited. On the other hand there is nothing to match Truman Capote's fictional/non-fictional rendition of the Clutter murders. Now there's a fine example of where history and fiction blend to give a clear picture of an event and the emotions surrounding  it. One of my other favorites is ALL THE KINGS MEN and its rendition of Huey Long. GRAPES OF WRATH is up there also--though its characters are all fictional---as a rendition of the Okies in general.   


Title: Re: World History
Post by: johnr60 on October 13, 2007, 08:53:14 PM
I thought I posted this this afternoon--must have lost it.


Quote
The normal historical sources, you see, are not very good on people’s MINDS. They may be able to pin-point where someone is on a given day. They could tell you what that person did – who they met, what they bought, what it cost. Sometimes they can even tell you what people said – although reported speech is always extremely dubious. But historical sources – and indeed, historians – are almost never able to say what people FEEL about what happens. Even though what we feel about what happens is often the most important thing about it...

I hope I’ve managed to show you that all art, and especially fiction, is about CONTRADICTION. We create illusions, but the illusions must be accurate and convincing, or they mean nothing. And – at its best – the seeming lie of ART can show more of the TRUTH than many a collection of more easily verifiable FACT...

I hope I’ve also managed to show that history is not quite the out and out truth that it seems. At its best it is only one historian’s selection of what he or she BELIEVES, at any particular time, is most relevant from the body of material that survives...

Stephen Crane, the author of the American Civil War classic The Red Badge of Courage, was once asked why he had chosen to write his book as fiction rather than history. You see he was a scholar. The reason, he said, was because he wanted to FEEL the situations of the War as a PROTAGONIST, not from the outside. And it was only by writing a novel that he could do this.

http://www.historicalnovelsociety.org/historyis.htm


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 13, 2007, 09:54:19 PM
"that history is not quite the out and out truth that it seems. At its best it is only one historian’s selection of what he or she BELIEVES, at any particular time, is most relevant from the body of material that survives... "

Nobody who studies history thinks it is or ever will be. I pointed out above it's each generations's view or perception of what happened. That's human nature. We strive for the truth as we see it.

By the way, as regards  the above quote, the same might be said of fiction---since they base their novels on the perceptions of historians--they too pick and choose what to emphasize. If they're after feeling, historian can and do express the feelngs of the times they describe. Read Shelby Foote if you want feelings--you don't need to fictionalize events in order to convey feelings. But if you feel more comfortable with fiction beware you not get caught up believing everything you read as it might be the figment of oneman's imagination and have no basis at all in fact or in truth.

You know, in the course of my job I sometimes have patients describe an event which they just witnessed. Out of twenty descriptions I get upwards of fifteen versions---nobody lied, they described the event as they saw it--I use it to teach people the need to be tolerant as to other people's belief systems. No description of any event at any time is ever entirely objective---and the emotions produced by the event are all different---that's human nature. The mistake people make is the belief that history is an objective science---it ain't and no responsible historian will contend it is.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: johnr60 on October 13, 2007, 10:24:43 PM
Quote
the same might be said of fiction---since they base their novels on the perceptions of historians--they too pick and choose what to emphasize.

The mistake people make is the belief that history is an objective science---it ain't and no responsible historian will contend it is.

I agree with those things and thought that's what I was trying to convey in the first place.  Each has an agenda including the guy I quoted.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 13, 2007, 11:05:13 PM
I have gotten the essays of Tuchman, and enjoyed her first one. It is a good explanation of why someone wants to write history as opposed to fiction. I am impressed with her preference for primary source materials. Although the writer of fiction does a great deal of research, it does not always have to be primary sources. And, I remember a "new story" of many years ago in which a reporter, in a front page news story about the visit of the Gorbachev's to the Reagans, and pronounced Raisa's furs as "Shleppy" compared to Nancy's. Now, that may have been a primary source, but it was clearly an opinion, not a fact. I was so angered at the story, that I cancelled the subscription to that newspaper!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 14, 2007, 12:11:51 AM
Quote
You know, in the course of my job I sometimes have patients describe an event which they just witnessed. Out of twenty descriptions I get upwards of fifteen versions---nobody lied, they described the event as they saw it

I recently read a trial transcript that featured testimony by a neuropsych expert witness about eyewitness accounts of crime by perfectly honest folk with good eyesight, no impairment, no substance ingestion, etc.  Fascinating stuff.  Even the instructions the judges give to juries take into account the differences of perception, recollection, etc.  Yet another among the many reasons to take good care of one's credibility  :)

BTW, it was a surprise to me, but even DNA evidence can be open to question.  Reading the transcripts of prosecution vs. defense DNA expert witnesses can be a major exercise in "Say, wha?"


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on October 14, 2007, 08:31:48 AM
even DNA evidence can be open to question.


Bear in mind that evidence can easily be planted as did racist Los Angeles detective Mark Fuhrmann.  He boasted of getting many convictions and of putting many innocent people in prison for crimes they never committed because of the evidence he manufactured and planted.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 14, 2007, 02:24:50 PM
No man is objective. Data can be objective and science strives to see which data is replicable--but man himself is not objective at all. While we strive to be  objective we always come up a bit short, that's being human. Humans work on perspective--how they perceive what is going on around them or how they perceive what that objective data means or measures.

Look at how many studies are countered by other studies which try to measure the same phenomena...Look at how many interpretations given any one study.

I man were objective should we not have one religion and there should only need be one biography of each historical characteer--after all objectivity would discourage interpretation. Remember Joseph Stalin's History of the Communist Party--woebetide the man who questioned it. It was totally "objective" and therefore not subject to examiniation or criticism.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 14, 2007, 07:41:53 PM

Quote
You know, in the course of my job I sometimes have patients describe an event which they just witnessed. Out of twenty descriptions I get upwards of fifteen versions---nobody lied, they described the event as they saw it

I recently read a trial transcript that featured testimony by a neuropsych expert witness about eyewitness accounts of crime by perfectly honest folk with good eyesight, no impairment, no substance ingestion, etc.  Fascinating stuff.  Even the instructions the judges give to juries take into account the differences of perception, recollection, etc.  Yet another among the many reasons to take good care of one's credibility  :)

BTW, it was a surprise to me, but even DNA evidence can be open to question.  Reading the transcripts of prosecution vs. defense DNA expert witnesses can be a major exercise in "Say, wha?"
[/quote]

It sounds like you watched the same episode, "Recall", that I did last night of Law and Order, Criminal Intent with Robin Weigert and Leslie Caron depending on your time-zone. That was the gist of the argument and why they had to get Leslie Caron to testify when the first witness was too emotionally shattered to be credible for the tastes of the jury.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 14, 2007, 07:44:17 PM
The blue change color quote didn't go through from top quote to bottom where it says "quote" immediately above the last paragraph which is mine in response to the full statement above which is nytempsperdu.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on October 15, 2007, 06:14:09 PM
Pardon my ignorance folks, but which book is currently being discussed in the World History section?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 15, 2007, 07:58:39 PM
We were scheduled to begin  THE MARCH OF FOLLY this very day. I noticed, though, that there were peoplewho  received their copy of the book only very recently, so I asked if it would be OK to start a little later, say on the 22nd. However, if anyone wants to start now I can post an intro to it.  What sayest ye all?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 15, 2007, 09:24:33 PM
Bob,

I've received most of the other books I ordered at the same time, including Practicing History, but not yet the March of Folly. If you want to start, go ahead, I'll jump in when I can.

Oh, The Basque History is a delightful book! Light, easy reading and soooo interesting! Seems everyone got to America before Columbus!





Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 16, 2007, 12:49:54 AM
Quote
Bear in mind that evidence can easily be planted as did racist Los Angeles detective Mark Fuhrmann.  He boasted of getting many convictions and of putting many innocent people in prison for crimes they never committed because of the evidence he manufactured and planted.

Well, the contesting of DNA evidence I referred to was disagreement among scientists as to the reliability of sequencing methods, etc., which are constantly being refined. It, like other kinds of scientific evidence, is often contested in pre-trial hearings (in CA, and I presume elsewhere as well) to determine whether it meets certain scientific standards.  The transcripts of these hearings can be fascinating, if difficult, to read.  Expert testimony before juries is a whole separate skill; it certainly isn't easy--on the scientists or the jurors.  Sometimes lawyers can lead the opposing expert into simply talking way too much--not surprisingly a common characteristic of experts--so that they lose the jury's attention and/or sympathy.

Some workshops I attended on jury selection and "handling" revealed some disturbing tendencies; some studies indicated jurors may pick which lawyer they like, even unconsciously and based on superficialities like attire, mannerisms, etc., and will pay closer attention to the evidence on that side of the case and favor it during deliberations.

I've sometimes thought that if the situation should arise, I might very well prefer trial by judge, who would at least know what legal pitfalls to avoid.  The best plan, of course, is to avoid altogether anything that would lead to either!

But it's true that Fuhrman was discredited and "rusticated to the provinces" in some minor law enforcement position somewhere.  I'm sure he must have written some self-justifying book or other, but know (and care) not whatever became of him.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on October 16, 2007, 08:43:10 PM
Fuhrmann retired and is today receiving a pension financed by the citizens of Los Angeles.  Thus, the people he vicitmzed are paying for the luxuries he enjoys nowadays.

Life sure s*cks at times.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 16, 2007, 10:10:37 PM
My copy of March of Folly came today and I started the first chapter. This is going to be an intereting read. I always thought of the story of the Trojan Horse as a funny one, but it is clear it should be one of governmental folly. I'm going to like this book.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 20, 2007, 06:16:52 AM
THE MARCH OF FOLLY

Barabara Tuchman starts of the book with a rather profound thought---she points out that throughout history there are governments which pursued policies contrary to their self interest and that the phenomenon continues unto this day. To demonstrate this phenomenon she  provides four examples: The acceptance of the horse by the Trojans; the behaviors of the Renaissance Popes which brought about the Reformation; the British policies leading to the loss of the American Colonies and the American involvement in Vietnam. We all know there may be one more addition after that....

So, let thediscussion begin----Chapter I is most important as it sets the parameters of the dicussion and of the book--so maybe we ought to break it down rather finely. There's a lot of "meat" here to be devoured.

I'll be back this afternoon or evening to post more.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 20, 2007, 08:31:06 AM
I get the impression that there were many other events in world history that would have classified for inclusion in her book. Tuchman seems to have carefully chosen her four examples, moving from the time when history was as much myth as reality,

I found it interesting that Tuchman points out that the ineffectual popes had some redeeming qualities in their support of the arts during their papacy. It was a time of gilding the lily, and tearing down and rebuilding for the sake of doing so. Tuchman gives the sense that the great buildings, the Cistine Chapel, and other artistics wonders were the product of dillusional thinking on the part of their "patrons".

There are certainly parallels into the current administration. Tuchman could have had a field day with the ever more grandiose notions of the present occupant of the white house. From the war fronted in Iraq and Afganistan, to the building of the wall across our southern border. I wonder what politician of the future will declare "tear down that wall", to end the foolishness that America has fallen into.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 20, 2007, 11:23:10 AM
In her opening, Tuchman illustrates extremely well that Folly has many disquises but keeps coming back again and again, mistakenly taken as a new situation when in fact it is not. Often, again, the same wooden headedness (lack of identifying the problem/issue/situation correctly) is applied with disasterous results.

Myth or no, I am ever amazed, when I think of the story of the Trojan Horse, that the leaders of Troy went out of their way (the removal of the lintel) to let the horse inside the gate (think of today when you read of some elder person that has invited their murderer (or thief) into their home.)

What to say?  I enjoy reading about the machinations of the gods and their progeny, none of them with nary a compunction against lying, cheating, and promises not kept.  Reminds me of Karl Rove and his cohorts.

Right off, I am going to tell you that I will sit out the section on the Popes.  I have recently finished William Manchester's World Lit Only By Fire which covers this exhaustively.  I stopped reading at page 81 (trade paperback edition) and picked up again at the conculsion on page 125 with Alexander VI.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 20, 2007, 03:18:01 PM
Donot,

While it may have been necessary to show the scope of the folly, I felt that Tuchman inluded more about the papacy than it deserved.

I did greatly enjoy the part about King George III. Tuchman packs a lot of names into her sentences, so it can be a bit difficult to follow and remember who is whom. It needs to be taken in small steps to get the scope in mind, and I'm not one to put a book down when I've an evening stretching before me.

The passages about Ben Franklin's eventual disgust with the whole parliament were especially interesting. Perhaps more than which of the nobles came by their nobility how. It was telling how often a very young man, not yet of deep thinking age, served in the Parliament, then moved on by the time he was old enough to have done some good. The guy Pitt was a disappointment. He could have moved the mountain, but his health prevented him from sticking in for the fight. It was interesting how many men with the "right" ideas were determined not to serve because they believed in "my way or the highway".




Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 21, 2007, 01:32:05 AM
Weezo, what I am just now realizing is how singular our U.S. government was when it was invisioned and then set in motion by the Founding Fathers.  What passed for "government" in England was feudal in nature until Victoria finally got herself together after "Bertie" died and put her power behind Disraeli.  The radical idea of representative government balanced between the Executive, the Congress, and Justice, was unheard of, with many quite sure it would never work.  And the icing on the cake?  The Bill of Rights.

Of course, that is a long ways away from Bull Run.

I'm about 28 pages into "The British Lose America" where Tuchman is going over the Seven Years War with the French, and the Redcoat gossip about how "dirty" and "ignorant" and "cowardly" the American fighters were.  The British were professional soldiers while the Americans were single purpose fighters that took up arms only for specific missions, and when that mission was accomplished (in their view) they packed up and went home.  The Americans remembered these slights when later called upon to fight the British.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 21, 2007, 07:33:26 AM
Do Not,

I wish Tuchman had gone into the folly that was our civil war, especially looking at the "Lost Cause" in the South which was of certainty a folly from the begining to the ignoble end and the long years of Jim Crow to restrict the rights of the newly-freed slaves.

I am now in the third section which deals with the wars in Indochina. Why ever we assumed that we needed to "contain" another form of government and economic system has always eluded me. Why could we not just peacefully co-exist with another form of government, just as we peacefully co-existed with the monarchies and dictatorships that pervaded Europe.

In William Cooper's Town, Taylor makes a strong statement about how close we came to overchucking the attempts at democratic rule in favor of an oligarchy which granted power only to those of the "right" families - those with "nobility" in their birthright. The attempt to establish an oligarchy, especially for William Cooper, was marked by the fact that the next generation, raised to believe in their uncommon worth, were weak and indolent. A childhood indulged with excess money and indolence, does not produce a generation with a strong work ethic. In a biography of Robert Carter III, the grandson of a very wealthy Virginia family, the man chose to send his children out of the south where the presumption of his class was that slaves met one's every need and want, to learn how to live under their own labor. Sadly, Rober Carter III's contemporaries, instead of using his ideas to light the way and subsequently prevent the centuries of enslavement, wrote him off as a religious nut, and even his own children, those born before his revelation on the hazards of a southern education, successfully thwarted his intent to free all those he "owned" in bondage.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 21, 2007, 01:35:11 PM
March of Folly trivia.  Sixty five thousand pounds of flour per year was needed to keep the British wigs dusted and looking white.  But with the storage facilities of that time, I'm wondering if weevils weren't crawling around in the wigs. That would tend to cause the listeners to the oratory of said weevilly wig wearers to lose focus, eh?

Yes, on every page of this book one is reminded of the present time.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 21, 2007, 02:19:22 PM
Why my family spoke German instead of FRENCH

I think that Tuchman included many phases of history, in passing, by touching lightly, although in power packed  relevance, between one topic and another.(but notice how she has family support every step of the way; husband,daughter, etc. doing research work and submitting their opinions for her approval toward inclusion)

For instance, as part of her intro on examples of the folly of certain Deciders of ill-fated moves, because they lived for the grandiose gesture, who bumble into future consequences for others down the line, not because of having a really worked out grand scheme in mind but, rather their petulance led them not to foresee, possibly some things that certainly might go amiss; if they had been  more in the habit of thinking things through than exercising the power to which they were born.

She's positioned W.,  but very inadvertently, on a plane with the Sun King.  It's the way that she encapsulates the results inevitable with a few erudite strokes of her pen, if not the computer, to describe the circumstances arising out of a conflict of over-reaching authority to a given situation that had been unfolding in  either just short of a millenium or perhaps a tad longer depending on where you jump into reading of history. And of course she does this half way down page 19 in the paperback version from Ballantine Books, within four pages or 2/3's of the way down page 23

She describes the problem set in two generations that follow "the Sun" but think of it as somewhat as little of a century if you like, in which the economy will take a left turn.  You can not entertain the Good Life by forcing denial upon your subjects. Louis was himself manipulated by several maitresses which I should think shows us a motive  which underlies the deprivation across the countryside; and we are led to believe from other sources, including such worthies as Sophia Coppola that this continued to be the motive although it could also be considered the plots put into motion by  feminine foreign royals "two reigns later" (not to mention apriori with a Medici in the mix).

There are some who would say this was the arrival of "petticoat government"; but, not Tuchman.  Louis is descended from a man whose namesake he is, more interestingly known as Clovis (from which Louis derives as a name)whose wife had an ameliorating influence upon his savagery to the poor by converting him to the idea of baptism since she was a Christian.

We are told with a turn of the page that the Sun King wished to "reaffirm" his "ancient title" of "Most Christian King" (Tuchman also mentions that "he had acquired the disease of divine mission so often disastrous to rulers".    Sound at all contemporary? I think so; but there's the little problem in our time that this was foisted off by a plotter who thought of himself as ingenious to come up with such a rift that would attract an electorate ready for tapping.

But back then, with "clerical conversion squads organized..." and "separating and uprooting Huguenots from their own community and national life",--we are now on pg.21--two of my ancestors "took their skills abroad to...and the German States"  We turn the page, and "...the Elector of Brandenburg (the future Prussia)...issued a decree...inviting Huguenots... where their industrial enterprise contributed greatly to the rise of Berlin".

I know that when my two ancestors,father and son, could not be found in any record in the Nederlands where they would venture from a tiny Normandy farm, other family historians immediately turned to England(as Tuchman mentions) where a fortunate branch later developed but it did not explain the Matthieu(Mathias) line.  

She does however talk about the textile workers, I studied a bit about them( of Northern France ); but early cottage industry Huguenots emigrating to England founded what came to be known as Threadneedle Street in the Limehouse area of London.

No, Matthieu escapes and picks up the offer to emigrate to Berlin where it is a matter of printing Bibles.

Tuchman does not neglect the point however that among remaining communities in the South of France,"a receptive base was created for the Revolution to come."  

By then it was left to other family members to continue writing and printing what would irritate  the Royal Household and attendant aristocracy, and to emigrate although the Gabriel branch of family had gone almost immediately from France during the changes initiated by the Sun King and began a new life in the rice producing coastal regions of the Carolinas.

My own ancestors did not disentangle themselves from Prussian connections even after the Revolution took place and,even after they arrived in America, having married German-speaking women, it stands to reason. Before that they had hit a hard patch which "worked out well for them as Barbara Bush would have put it had she been around" as it put them in the best spot to be at the appropriate time. Later, their future descendents could trip back to Trier where some of the family preferred to remain through everything that has happened since without emigrating any further.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 22, 2007, 08:55:01 PM
Quote
While it may have been necessary to show the scope of the folly, I felt that Tuchman inluded more about the papacy than it deserved.


Looks as though there are few takers for the Troy section or the Papal section. Do we want to go straight into the American Revolution?

I wopuld like to post some stuff from chapter one if that's Ok, to get us rolling--some of the basics of Tuchman's beliefs. I think the real meat of the book is in the first chapter.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 22, 2007, 09:00:35 PM
Someone posted (I can't find it right now) that there were many more examples of folly that Tuichman could have used---I quite agree, but given the timing of the book her comparison of Vietnam and the American Revolution was quite appropriate. Both sections are filled with much wisdom. Her treatment of the American Revolution strays very far from the standard American view of things.

Have any of you read  THE LONG FUSE by Cook? It's the how the British lost the Colonies--great book and a good companion to the Tuchman view.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 22, 2007, 09:03:40 PM
 William Manchester's World Lit Only By Fire

Donotremove: How is the Manchester book. I haven't read it .


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 22, 2007, 09:22:10 PM
Bob,

I did not read the first chapter as thoroughly as you seem to. It seemed an introduction to the "real stories". I am now up to my elbows in the Vietnam war, reading the names of people and events that happened during my lifetime, and finding it most interesting. Either, because I recognize the names, or perhaps Tuchman is throwing fewer names at her reader than in the earlier sections, but it seems easier to read and understand now than during the papacy and the revolutionary war. The unit on the papacy was especially hard because of the unfamiliar names. In the section on George III, Tuchman seemed to want to include the name of every English nobleman, and his family foibles even when they distracted from the point she was making. She doesn't seem to do as much of that in the Vietnam section.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 22, 2007, 09:59:28 PM
Quote
In the section on George III, Tuchman seemed to want to include the name of every English nobleman, and his family foibles even when they distracted from the point she was making.

That's because she was British. Those names and foibles were as common to her as American presidents are to us. However, I see what you mean.

   The two chapters ( on the Revolution & Vietnam), though, are connected, as her point is that the American Revolution was Britain's Vietnam  and the the thing we didn't realize during the Vietnam debacle was that we did what they did. Vietnam was fighting their version of he American Revolution--there was no way we could win.

    We fought the world's greatest military power to a standoff until they cried uncle and let us free...Vietnam, through Ho Chi Mihn, did the same to us--fought the reigning military power to a standoff until we withdrew and they got their independence. Interesting proposition.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 23, 2007, 12:24:26 AM
Bob,

Knowing she was British is illuminating, both on the George III section and on the Papal section.

Yes, I saw that connection both from reading her passages on Vietnam, and remember it from living through that time and wondering why we didn't remember our own revolution. Same now with Iraq and Venezuela. Why is it that we feel we have the only "right" way to govern? What really was so awful about Cuba becoming communist? Why do we import pet food ingredients and toys from communist China and refuse to import sugar from Cuba?



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 23, 2007, 09:01:27 AM
Bob, the Manchester book is beautifully written (of course, Manchester has always been one of my favorite authors.  His debilitation after a stroke that kept him from finishing the triolgy on Churchill was a tragedy.  His death was history's loss.)  The book surveys from the 5th to the 15th if I remember correctly (the book is now under a stack of stuff  :) ) with heavy emphasis on the rise of Luther.  If one didn't know that religion was the linch pin of civilization almost from the git-go, reading this book will thoroughly inform the curious.  Getting from there to secular government was HARD WORK, even if it was imposed (Atta Turk) with force.

I got bored with Tuchman's 'How the British Lost America" about page 186 and skipped on to the conclusion on 228 (Ballantine Books, Trade Paper, 1985.)  I'm at "Creating The Client" on the Vietnam segment.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 12:53:44 PM
Bob,  Re: World History
« Reply #171 on: October 22, 2007, 09:59:28 PM » Quote   

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote  [from weezo]
In the section on George III, Tuchman seemed to want to include the name of every English nobleman, and his family foibles even when they distracted from the point she was making.

"That's because she was British." from Bob, above

Now, I'm just as confused as I was the last time this came up. I'm hoping you will say that her husband is or was British.

Her father was the banker Maurice Wertheim who served under FDR "as a dollar a year man"

She is the grandaughter of Henry Morgenthau,Sr. Woodrow Wilson's ambassador to Turkey or the Ottoman Empire depending on which heading you hit first at Wikipedia.  His son was of course Henry Morgenthau,Jr. who was secretary of the Treasury under FDR (and also the father of Robert M. Morgenthau, current District Attorney of New York county.

Now, all of this has been a source of confusion to me when dealing with Barbara Tuchman's books because the Morgenthau name was so ubiquitous when I was a kid;and I can't keep them straight.  In fact, it gets more confusing, the more that you find out.

For instance, under Henry Morgenthau,Sr.(real estate mogul)you find that his daughter Alma Wertheim was the mother of Barbara Tuchman so I can only conclude that Alma married Maurice Wertheim (the banker; although I think it was Henry Morgenthau,Jr. who started the War Bonds?

And Henry Morgenthau,Sr. was born here because his father Lazarus Morgenthau emigrated from Mannheim,Bavaria.

So, I also think of Barbara Tuchman as German-American. Her father Maurice was however the inheritor of United Cigar Manufacturers Co. and thus when he served Roosevelt as a "dollar a year man" it was on the War Productions Board.

I  currently find nothing about Tuchman by name but in the past did have some literary information that covered that with an interview which included perhaps a son   -- so, I may yet find it archived with nytimes. for instance because this came up in regard to that famous (or infamous) poll of editors,reviewers, peers who were asked to vote for the most important novel in the last 25 years.  Among the posters, responding in the forum that this poll produced, were always and inevitably at least a handful of women who thought Tuchman should have been included. Not for historic fiction but that her histories are so good that they read like novels!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 23, 2007, 04:48:24 PM
Good Grief, Madupont, you've destroyed my image of the woman. All these years I assumed she was the grand dame of British historians and now I find out she's as American as appple pie--you've destroyed my mythology...thanks for the info

I have no idea where I got it that she was British. My apologies for posting as I did without checking first...


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 23, 2007, 04:50:38 PM
Donotremove: thanks for the information. I'll have to get a copy and read it somewhere down the line.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 24, 2007, 01:18:43 AM
I've read 4 or 5 Tuchman books with great pleasure and will at some point read this one.  I only know she is American because I traveled with her sister and brother-in-law in Mexico in 1975. Sister is, or was then, a fanatic on the subject of the Kennedy assassination.  She also traveled with completely the wrong shoes for climbing around ruinas.

Wouldn't you know, my one "brush with fame-once-removed" and all I remember is her making her way through piles of stones, calling in a rather piercing voice to her husband, an architect who engaged in deep conversations with the architect husband of the couple I was traveling with--I recall one such was on the subject of grout...the controversy of the time was whether to leave newly discovered sites as they were or to restore them  (hence the grout) for potential money-making tourism.

I mostly just took off for the pyramids, ruinas and cenotes on my own. 



Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 24, 2007, 05:39:42 AM
NY Temp,

I think I would have found the discussion on grout and whether or not to restore those old buildings and monuments fascinating. I can see both sides of the argument. In restoring the ruins, they would be presenting a "lie" to the tourist, but tourists would probably gobble it up anyway. It would show the grandeur of the earlier civillizations that are often neglected by historians. On the other hand, restoring the buildings and not making them useful would perhaps be a wasted effort in a country where people are living in substandard housing and making do. Perhaps giving the buildings a purpose, such as holding precious art collections in beautiful museums would encourage more appreciation of the art of the old civilizations, and could perhaps stimulate the local populace to create modern examples of the old art to sell to the tourists.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on October 24, 2007, 05:56:23 AM
The big problem with grout and old ruins is that if the grout is cement based it can destroy the brick work, as the bricks are often more porous than the grout, leading to what they call spaulding in the biz, whereby the old brick begins to break away at the surface as water invariably seeks the path of least resistance.  I can imagine how it would make for a pretty tedious conversation.

(http://grumpygirl.blogs.com/photos/honeymoon/416_urquhart_castle.JPG)

More interesting, perhaps, is the age old argument between John Ruskin (The Seven Lamps of Architecture, Stones of Venice) and E.E. Viollet-le-Duc, famous for restoring Parisian Gothic churches and his Encyclopedia of Architecture in the 19th century.  Ruskin extolled the virtues of ancient ruins and how they more romantically hark back to an earlier era, wheras Viollet-le-Duc believed great buildings should be restored for posterity.  Looking at the evocatively preserved ruins of Urquhart Castle overlooking Loch Ness, I tend to side with Ruskin.  It might not draw as many tourists as the Castle in Edinburgh, but it gave me a more tangible impression of history.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on October 24, 2007, 06:53:34 AM
All this talk about grout made me think of Praying for Sheetrock,

(http://nutrias.org/~nopl/info/aarcinfo/aabc/sheetrock.jpg)

Great book on the laggard nature of bringing civil rights to Georgia.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on October 24, 2007, 09:59:32 AM
March of Folly trivia.  Sixty five thousand pounds of flour per year was needed to keep the British wigs dusted and looking white.  But with the storage facilities of that time, I'm wondering if weevils weren't crawling around in the wigs. That would tend to cause the listeners to the oratory of said weevilly wig wearers to lose focus, eh?

Yes, on every page of this book one is reminded of the present time.

Donot -

Jakob Von Grimmelshausen wrote a hilarious novel called Simplicius Simplicimius: Adventures of a Simpleton, in the 17th century.  He vividly describes a flea crawling from beneath the powdered wig of a noblewoman dressed to the nines with hilarious effect.  A few weavils would hardly have made a difference since wigs were frequently crawling with lice and nits.

BTW, don't give those popes short shrift.  You'd be surprised how interesting the subject can be since they were usually princes and anything but celebate and austere.  Tuchman has a way about her narrative that makes everything fascinating.

I'm ordering the Tuchman book today - I confess to having forgotten about it. 



Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on October 24, 2007, 10:18:35 AM
Okay, this time I actually meant what I said - I just ordered the Tuchman book.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 24, 2007, 12:12:40 PM
Des, I am well read on the Popes and their picadillos, mischiefs, and venal sins.  When I first read Tuchman's "March" back in the middle 80s I was new to bad Popes.  I was also religious then. Today, for me, it's a different mindset.  This should not discourage anyone from reading "March".  It is an excellent book, well written, and documented. But with so much additional reading having flowed past my eyes since then (and I AM enjoying skimming the book again) the material is all old news, although I am again reminded of how MUCH discussion of Vienam Yes/No there was.  The Vietnam folly is the clearest example Tuchman offers.

Hot damn, Dzimas, the last time you mentioned Praying For Sheetrock I had to get it out and reread it.  That book should be required reading in "Civics" classes--if there is such a thing as civics classes in schools today.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 24, 2007, 01:44:43 PM
Donot,

That reminds me. Tuchman, in her section on the papacy, refers often to the "sin of simony". I'm sure I once knew what that sin was, but it eludes me at the present. Is it the sin of "bastarness", which seemed to be the case for the popes Tuchman mentioned it for, or is it something they actually did?

Yes, civics is still taught in school, usually in 8th grade, and a course of Government in 12th.

I am up to Nixon and Ford in the March of Folly. I wonder why she didn't give more space to the folly of Watergate. She skipped right over it, assuming, of course, that the reader would readily know why Nixon had to resign from office, and that Ford stepped in. She also did not mentioned that Ford had been appointed rather than elected. Now that I'm reading it, I forget which pope, oops, president, finally did bring the troops home. I will probably finish the book this afternoon, since we are finally getting some rain after months of drought.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on October 24, 2007, 02:17:00 PM
The Vietnam War ended during Nixon's presidency - I believe it was at the beginning of his second term if I am remembering right.

Donot -

I forgot you have already read March.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 24, 2007, 03:48:22 PM
Weezo, simony is the buying and selling of church office.  Glad to hear "civics" is still taught.  Perhaps if rap songs extolled civics the young would have a better understanding of what it means to be a citizen.

Watergate was just a side show to the pitiful end of the Vietnam debacle.  One of the main promises Nixon made in his campaign speeches was his "secret plan to get us out of Vietnam."  Smoke and mirrors as it turned out.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: yankguy on October 24, 2007, 03:51:01 PM
"March of Folly" is one of the great history books of all-time and I agree that her section on Viet Nam is the best, and most corageous treatment of that era.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 24, 2007, 06:01:22 PM
Simony, the  8th Circle of Hell and a few Popes:

http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/utopia/circle8a.html


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 24, 2007, 06:41:44 PM
Thanks for the definition of simony.

If the measure of a great history book is how quickly one reads it, then this is a good history book, since I've zipped through it rather quickly without skipping any parts. It was good reading, even if stumbling over the Italian names caused me to wish she'd used nicknames.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on October 24, 2007, 09:56:42 PM
And another account of the original Simon committing simonry from the 8th Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles:

   
9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, 10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power of God.” 11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

   
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”
24 Then Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me.”


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 25, 2007, 08:20:27 PM
The reason I wanted to start the book at Chapter one is that there are some pretty discussible things there:

Quote
"While all other sciences have advanced," confessed our second President, John Adams,"govenment is at a stand; little better practiced now than three or four thousand years ago."

Tuchman points out misgovernment is of four kinds, "often in combination."
(1) tyranny and oppression  (need no citing--too numerous)
(2) excessive ambition (Hitler and Hirohito)
(3) incompetance  or decadence  (Romanov's)
(4) folly or perversity  (subject of the book)

She then sets up the criteria for  folly or perversity:

(1) It must have been perceived  as counterproductive  in its own time.
(2) A feasible alternative  must have been available.
(3) The policy in question should be that of a group, not an individual ruler
     and should persistbeyond any one political lifetime.

These are quotes  from Tuchman at page 5


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 25, 2007, 09:38:33 PM
Quote
Jakob Von Grimmelshausen wrote a hilarious novel called Simplicius Simplicismius

Ach! Now there's a title I've not thought of for many a moon. Simplicius Simplicissimus was adjunct reading in a college history course (30 Years War).  It seems there's a more recent translation that eliminates the first name (bodes well, I'd say):  http://www.amazon.com/Simplicissimus-Hans-Jakob-Christoph-Grimmelshausen/dp/1903517427/ref=pd_bbs_1/105-9000503-2260437?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193362300&sr=1-1

I seem to recall not liking it as much as Candide, but that can be said of ever so very many books.
 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 26, 2007, 12:12:41 AM
Bob,

In the modern examples of "folly" Tuchman points out that individual egos - no one wants to be the one who causes the nation to "lose face", without considering that the false policy is "losing face" as long as it continues. Folly seems to result in some great rhetoric employing high sounding ideals signifying nothing.

In comparing the effort in Vietnam to install an American style "democracy" without reforming the land distributions and re0distributing the wealth to befit the most of the people, we seen a repeat in the notion Condi Rise proposed to place economic sanctions today on Iran, with the result that the price of oil went to its highest level on the same day. What assurances does the US have that enough nations of the world will risk their own economic depressions to uphold the American initiative to withhold economic activities with Iran if it meanss their costs of energy will take the hit. If the cost of middle east oil rises, won't it make oil from Venezuela and other non-middle east sources more desirable in spite of their political choices that do not make Bush happy? Are we cuttin off our noses to spite our faces? What idiot devised this "punishment" for Iran?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 26, 2007, 04:09:47 AM
Bob, et al, my brain seems to have frozen up, like my computer does sometimes.  All seems babel.  I guess I am just processing all the information and impressions from having gone through, again, the history of more than two decades of America's Vietnam Folly, with "Iraq" breaking through at nearly every page.

Was looking up reviews of Tuchman's other books, and see that A Distant Mirror is about the 14th Century.  That book might be a companion to Manchester's World Lit Only By Fire.  I got Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine in today's mail. She writes about how the powerful (of all kinds, business, corporations, military, government) keep the rest of us in line (think of herding cattle,) on board, and in the dark while "they" commit their newest follies.

I have such a sense of foreboding about the way "things" are going here in the U.S.  And without a "savior" in sight.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 26, 2007, 06:07:50 AM
Do Not,

I share your sense of doom. Ever since presidents starting trying to "make up" for Vietnam by staging small "successful" wars to keep the taste of blood in our mouths, I've been concerned about the fate of our once peaceful role in the world. The "invasion" of Granada was the first call to the fact that we had leaders who wanted to prove they could erect and take down a foreign "enemy". At the time, the news made it quite clear that when we arrived on Grenada, we encountered nothing but construction workers, not "communist fighter", and the Grenadaians were rather surprised that Reagan thought they needed "saving". They were only getting an airport built which the US had decided in it's foolish wisdom that they didn't need. After bombing up the started airfield, we had to go back and remake it for them. How foolish and follyish was that?

The problem with our military-industrial complex and the build-up of a war machine for the cold war, is that we now have a lot of weapons sitting around unused and begging to be put to use. Truman was led to believe that it was a "new world", and that we had a heady "role" to play in it. Eisenhower and subsequent presidents have been sucked into that mentality. Even the candidates for the next election still more than a year away, are touting the same rhetoric.

Perhaps we would do as we insist other war-inclined nations do, and destroy our weapons arsenal so that it is no longer a temptation to put them to use.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on October 26, 2007, 10:31:30 AM
Quote
Jakob Von Grimmelshausen wrote a hilarious novel called Simplicius Simplicismius

Ach! Now there's a title I've not thought of for many a moon. Simplicius Simplicissimus was adjunct reading in a college history course (30 Years War).  It seems there's a more recent translation that eliminates the first name (bodes well, I'd say):  http://www.amazon.com/Simplicissimus-Hans-Jakob-Christoph-Grimmelshausen/dp/1903517427/ref=pd_bbs_1/105-9000503-2260437?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193362300&sr=1-1

I seem to recall not liking it as much as Candide, but that can be said of ever so very many books.
 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on October 26, 2007, 10:33:19 AM
Quote
Jakob Von Grimmelshausen wrote a hilarious novel called Simplicius Simplicismius

Ach! Now there's a title I've not thought of for many a moon. Simplicius Simplicissimus was adjunct reading in a college history course (30 Years War).  It seems there's a more recent translation that eliminates the first name (bodes well, I'd say):  http://www.amazon.com/Simplicissimus-Hans-Jakob-Christoph-Grimmelshausen/dp/1903517427/ref=pd_bbs_1/105-9000503-2260437?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193362300&sr=1-1

I seem to recall not liking it as much as Candide, but that can be said of ever so very many books.
 

I read it in college, too, as well as Candide.  I loved Adventures of a Simpleton - thought it was hysterically funny and bawdy as all get out.  That was a pivotal moment for me:  I realized that people had sex outside of marriage prior to the sixties!  Boy, was I ever raised in a sheltered environment.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 26, 2007, 11:21:32 AM
Don't worry, desdemona, my sisters born a year apart just pre-1950s couldn't believe our grandmother's sister's stories; and it never occurred to them, in that case, how did we all get here ? (if previous generations did not have sex....)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 28, 2007, 02:44:23 PM
Bob, that our "Trojan Horse" is the corporate-military defense seems obvious to me.  Continual war is so profitable I don't know if we, now, can overcome it.  I can invision the world that we've battered into "my way or the highway" waiting just out of sight until we extend ourselves, economically and militarily, to near death and then closing in for the kill.

I have started reading Rory Stewart's The Prince of the Marshes.  I didn't realize (even though I have read his Afghanistan book, The Places In Between) he had such excellent background for writing about Arabs and "Other" and Islam--British Foreign Office, born in Hong Kong of Scottish parents, raised in Malaysia, grandfather served in India and his father in civil service, British Malasia.  I already knew he was a very good writer (from the Afghan book,) and this "Marshes" effort is off and running with clearly presented information from the first sentence.

I don't have much else to say about "Folly"--unless someone's future comments jogs my response toggle switch.  I think I have mentioned the Vietnam section reminds me of recent times to the point of heartsickness.  The willful ignorance, the government lying to itself and to the American people, the deliberate framing (by rhetorical means) of dissent as being unpatriotic, and the piece by piece dismantling of the Constitution.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 30, 2007, 10:19:15 PM
The parallels between Vietnam and Iraq are many, but what  is rally scary is that there's a pattern existent which is pointed out by both Tuchman, and, interestly enough, by J William Fulbright. Fulbright was a hero of sorts to me in his heyday because of his opppsition not only to the War but because of his positions on power in general. Twenty or so yers ago Fulbright wrote The Price of Empire in which he spoke of the price of good intentions (sound familiar? The US going about intervening in other nation's business for the good of their people)He said that countries which achieved great power have had a tendency to identify themselves themselves with the deity  and high standards of  virtues (where have we heard all this recently?) Next, he says, they get messianic--thinking it is their DUTY to take their message to other people. This, he suggests,is the pattern of intervention  we set up throughout the word  . "We might be doing this , with the best of intentions, but the resullt was a pattern of intervention in one way or another  throughout the globe."  (paraphrased from Fulbright, 195)

This is the type of folly Tuchman gets  at using a different approach.

Fulbright ends the section I was paraphrasing by posing questions: "Are such motives, such high estimations of  oine's own country , necessarily a characteristic of a powerful society? Is there a compulsion of such great powers to believe that they are better than anyone else and thus have a duty to proselytize? Are they bound to take the view  that they are the chosen people who are responsible for spreading the gospel?" (Fulbright,195)

Though the epithet thrown after him was Halfbright, Fulbright was very bright.

It may be that biggest disaster in the history this country  was the fall of the Soviet Union--leaving us the sole super power in the world  and caught in a semi-religious revival giving us feelings of omnipotence and a duty to covert the world--not to make it safe for Democracy--but to Democratize  all nations in the name of God---who, of course, ordained us to do so. This may very well be the Folly of the Twenty-First Century.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on October 31, 2007, 03:13:18 AM
Bob, well said.  Isn't there a scholarship in Fullbright's name?

I'm about halfway through Rory Stewart's The Prince of the Marshes and I can tell you you are going to enjoy his book.  It's written in 4-5 page sections almost like a diary.  Stewart was on the ground in a city in the Southeast, Al Amarah, Maysan Province, from September 2003.  It is clear that the Coalitition Provisional Authority had NO plans to go with the statement of mission, which was regime change.  That everything was ad hoc from day one.  That there were only a handful of coalition people that knew diddly squat about Iraq--the history, the social and religious makeup of the people (especially the FULL meaning of TRIBES) or language experts.

Myself, I doubt that if the coalition had had 5000 people steeped in the history of the area, that spoke fluent Arabic, and totally understood that you can seemingly have a good conversation and planning session with an Iraqi with the Iraqi not intending to do much of anything he has "seemingly" promised to do, that the coalition would still have been flummoxed because the Americans at the top would not have listened to their advice.

The British know better from experience and the provinces where they had control seemed to have done better, from what you hear on the news. Also, the British tended to put diplomatic types in the top civilian positions.  Not that Stewart gives the impression that things went smoothly.  On the contrary.  That things ever did go right was a miracle, what with too many chiefs mucking about.  The rural population only wanted peace, security, and seeds to get on with their planting.

I agree that the end of the Cold War was a turning point for America and all the paths we have chosen since then have mostly been bad choices.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 31, 2007, 09:50:03 AM
I am particularly interested this morning in whether anyone has yet tripped Rumsfield in any corner of the globe since he escaped France. There were many suggestions last night via the internet,"let him come home. We're ready for him...." In other words they can pick him up here and turn him in because we have the same laws here in regard to the UN.
The people have spoken.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on October 31, 2007, 08:13:09 PM
We are so arrogant to think that we need not be concerned with the history or culture of any nation. We are concerned only whether we think they should change and become democratic. We actually believe that no nation can ever reject democracy and  believe, further, that the world yearns for a democratic way of life. The people in the White House firmly believe it our duty to spread liberty & justice and democracy throughout the world and that any hint of any country oppposing us must be met with the threat of force.

It is shocking to me, given we are reading this book, that, not content with making  a disastrous decision to invade Iraq, the president is  again making decisions based on  an if, a maybe and  a perhaps --just as he did with the weapons of mass destruction.  The head of the IEAE  just pointed out  there is no evidence Iran is building a bomb--just as he pointed out that there were WMD's in Iraq---but apparaently the President has blown him off again. It's incredible how these guys make up their mind and refuse to accept any information which does not support their contentions.  He is once again taking a supposition, a possibility, converting it into a probability with no further proof at all, and will very shortly be insisting its a fact. If that isn't the height of folly I don't know what is-----and all the while people are here telling him and his men they better slow down. Yet he seems bent on doing what he will.  It's really tragic that we may become involved again in the Middle East in an adventure which we will truly rue--all based and if, a maybe and a perhaps.

His reasoning reminds me of people I deal with daily who are delusional or paranoid--or both. He finds enemies everywhere, like he's  beseiged and sees the need to thwart them before they destroy him. He does this on the thinnest evidence, or no evidence at all.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on October 31, 2007, 08:35:57 PM
Bob,

I appreciate you astute analysis of the president, but I wonder if he's just not trying to get to the head of the parade before anyone else does. He wants people to unite behind him and march forward, but he's not sure where. If he can unite the country on some cause, he can march out of the presidency with his head held high.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on October 31, 2007, 08:53:00 PM
Gee, I just thought he was in it for the Profits. He doesn't think there is anything wrong with his perceptions. He may have wanted everybody to believe he was a little self-conscious in public by  the time he had to debate Kerry but he doesn't really care what people think of his behaviour which he has been making more and more obvious.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on November 01, 2007, 01:07:30 AM
Which is why I hate checking the overnight news briefs each morning . . . the fear of "our" having invaded Iran while I slept.  It's bad enough having a low grade fear that neither a Democrat or a Republican president can be trusted not to invade Iran after Jan 20, 2009.  After all, we citizens "sent a message" last November that we wanted our troops out of Iraq, that we wanted environmental issues tended to, that we wanted universal health, no subsidies to corporations, and . . . you name your favorite, but these things have not changed one iota.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on November 01, 2007, 05:14:49 AM
Do Not,

While the electorate did send a message, it was a weak one with a bare majority, not enough to override a veto. We need to send a stronger message, more offices changing hands to responsible leaders.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 01, 2007, 09:53:45 AM
The older I get, the more I question how well our system of democracy really works.  I went to grad school in the 90s for about three seconds in the Master of Public Administration curriculum.  I took the first course at night, and it was very demanding, very similar to going to Law school because the reading was similar and just as volumnous.  One of the hottest topics in the articles and books we read was the checks and balances system and how poorly it works, but at that time the emphasis was on Congress having too much power.  Now here's the rub:  if you have a President who actually abides by the Constitution, it's true that Congress is much more powerful than the executive office.  But if you don't, you have the situation we're in.

Like Donot, I am convinced that Cheney and Bush are determined to make a pre-emptive strike on Iran before leaving office.  It's such a terrifying thing to think of - what has this country come to?  And, in a similar manner, Bush has stated not very indirectly that he is going to veto EVERYTHING the Democrats in Congress put before him.  He has the temerity to cut health care funding for little kids and say that it's "big spending" when we're running up a tab in the trillions on Iraq.  One of the chief ironies of Republicans has always been that they supposedly deplore "big government" unless it meets their own hawkish/capitalist agenda.

Which leads me to another thing I think about a lot.  My father made it big in the post WWII corporate world - he was a mover and a shaker and the company he worked for rewarded him very generously for it for 35 years.  He eventually made extremely good money and he had lots of perks including a pension plan he did not have to contribute anything to, which was standard practice in those days.  In short, the corporate arena has changed so drastically in the past 25 years that the middle class is being destroyed by it - they don't care if you starve to death in your old age. Pension plans are virtually non-existent, and many people can't afford to contribute to a 401 K plan - besides, 401K plans are only good if you are with the company for the long term, and corporations lay off thousands of people every year.  These people often wind up having to declare bankruptcy, which ruins their chances for getting another decent job, because (Catch 22) the same companies that outsource most of their jobs won't consider someone for employment if they have a bad credit record!

The Home Depot corporate office here in Atlanta had a team of people who made that company their whole life - in fact, that was what was required to do well there.  The employees' reward?  HD completely farmed out ALL financial operations to India a couple of years ago and put those people out on the street.

I think Marx had something about the self-destructive nature of rampant, unchecked capitalism.  Right now, a white collar working poor class has been created by these corporate giants.   The very backbone of support for these corporations is being driven to the poor house, and the eventual result is ineveitably the very companies who indulged in these practices are going to do poorly because they're destroying their own consumer base.

As for the Ramming Democracy Down the World's Throat, don't get me started!  What is the difference between us and the evil Communists who wanted worldwide revolution? 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 01, 2007, 09:54:27 AM
BTW, been reading The March of Folly for a couple of night now.   :)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on November 01, 2007, 12:07:53 PM
Desdemona,re:#208

"I think Marx had something about the self-destructive nature of rampant, unchecked capitalism.  Right now, a white collar working poor class has been created by these corporate giants."

Of course, but the corporate giant when led by the nose of a director from the less than white collar working (or, "that joke"--about the curse of the "drinking classes") class -- and I gather Norman Mailer has done the best job  he could possibly do at his age in writing his speculative fiction,yet based on valid research,as to the persons or family romance from what class produced Adolf Hitler, to whip those less than white collar working class-mates into a redeeming enthusiasm.

Much sport has been made of my pastimes in just recent days, although this was previously fun and sport some weeks before, but I felt almost duty bound to check it out before the last day of Oktoberfest got away from us. Why had I not suspected? Things were exactly as they were when I was sitting on a curb watching for a parade to go by in my childhood because I could hear the brass marching band approaching with the boom of the big parade drum and they would strike up the German martial tunes. I was quite comfortable on the curb because of my size, you see, rather small.  Any excitement on the street curbside brought me to attention. I'd turn out to share lunch with the garbagemen (although, in those days they didn't have those big lifters that would take up and replace whole dumpsters; they had instead the kind of carts, like the cars miners use or were used for hauling coal and ore on railway flats; and these were drawn by horses which I think is the thing that had the appropriate sound to bring me to curbside for the social interaction).

I had to acknowledge to myself observing Oktoberfest that my mother was right, although I had not thought so originally, when she had said a child is formed by what they have observed by the end of age three; not considering at the time, Freud said that. Very popular theorist in the Thirties. Just so she didn't instead say, "im Blud". No, it is definitely the exposure.

So, if you get some slow starter overly inebriated young man in what could have been his college years,getting a job opportunity from somebody like the senior Bush and ending up not exactly a straight shooter but nevertheless the present administration's corporate head of the energy consortium, in what way did he differ from a former Reichschancellor? Which of the white collar working classes has he appealed to with the concept of  owning part of the system of credit until they were not as middle-class as they had been but are faced with this peculiar new status of being upper working class looked at askance by the lower orders of the working class.  Having seen this before in the Thirties among the German-American working classes, I am not surprised by some current ideological enthusiasms.

We did have one saving  situation on our side back then which is absent now. An oddly strong, very upperclass in origin, Democrat in the White House.

"...if you have a President who actually abides by the Constitution..."   I'm suitably convinced that the candidate who was the Constitutional scholar and professor, Barack Obama, would. The White Supremacists can rail as usual. They are lawless.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 01, 2007, 12:40:56 PM
Maddie, don't let the mockery get you down.  I've read you enough to know your story is consistent and that you've been around the block a few times, like me.  And I know you're telling the truth about being a little girl in Nazi Germany because I've seen you post about from time to time before. 

You just brought to mind two other pet peeves:  this new term coined by some right-wing hawk, "Islamofacism", and Bush's apparent discovery of the word "ideology".  There just isn't any place for that kind of rhetoric right now, IMO. 

I'm a Barak Obama supporter, too.  I couldn't care less if his skin is dayglow green, I like him.  Even my ultra-conservative father likes him.  Today is the grand opening of his office here in Atlanta, which I think is pretty exciting.  I signed up to do volunteer work there.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on November 01, 2007, 01:14:35 PM
Des, Maddy did not grow up in Germany. I believe she has (now deceased) relatives that did, most of whom migrated to other places including the U.S.  The oral tradition was/is very strong in Maddy's extended family and she vividly remembers hearing all of the stories.  The "Octoberfest" parades she's remembering (as a child) took place here in the U.S.  Here in Texas we have heavy German (and Polish) populations in Central and Southern Texas.  Octoberfest is more familiar there.  I doubt that much of Dallas would know what Octoberfest was.

I'm an Obama supporter, myself.  Right from the git-go.  Recently I've been disappointed that he seems to be tending to "being all things to all people."


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 01, 2007, 02:09:37 PM
Oh, okay - I stand corrected.  (PS - I know lots of Germans settled in Texas - my family is one of many!  ;), but I have to admit that growing up in Dallas and Lubbock, and spending lots of time with my grandparents near Waco and in Amarillo, I never heard of Oktoberfest until I was an adult).

I'm afraid that Barak is going to have a hard time standing up to the Clinton machine, but in my book Hilary is just another Republican.  The more I hear from her, the less I like her.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on November 01, 2007, 02:36:31 PM
 
 


Stump Speaking, hand-colored engraving, 1856 (GLC04075).

 
   


2008 SUMMER SEMINARS: APPLY NOW

The Institute is pleased to announce the 2008 Summer Seminar schedule. There are thirty-two seminars available this year, with fourteen new topics:

Justice Sandra Day O’Connor, The American Judiciary
Edward L. Ayers, The South in American History
Carol Berkin, From Colonies to Nation: America in the 18th Century
Christopher L. Brown, British and American Antislavery
Nancy Cott, Twentieth Century Women’s Rights Movements
John Demos, Everyday Life in Early America
Fritz Fischer, Teaching American History through Documents (for elementary school teachers)
Henry Louis Gates, Jr. and Evelyn Higginbotham, African American Lives
Michael Kazin and Michael Flamm, The Sixties in Historical Perspective
Steven Mintz, Teaching Digital History
Patricia O’Toole, Woodrow Wilson and the War Years
Christian Ostermann, The Cold War
Orlando Patterson, Key Moments in American Freedom
Ted Widmer, The Age of Exploration
For more information and to apply online, click here:
http://www.gilderlehrman.org/teachers/seminars1.html

NEW: to watch video clips of seminar professors on our website, click here:
http://www.gilderlehrman.org/teachers/seminars_videos.html

2008 GILDER LEHRMAN HISTORY SCHOLARS

The Gilder Lehrman History Scholars Program application is now online. This competitive summer scholarship program in American history is for outstanding college sophomores and juniors. For more information, click here:
http://www.gilderlehrman.org/teachers/student2.html

________________________

If you believe that this message has been received in error, please click the "Unsubscribe" button at the bottom of this page. If you are not on our mailing list, but would like to subscribe, click here: http://www.gilderlehrman.org/mailing_list.html. The Institute does not rent, sell, or lend personal information to third parties.



   
 
 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on November 01, 2007, 02:56:06 PM
Des, my mother's family were all German and Dutch.  My father's family were all Scotch and Irish.  With such a background that makes me tend to like beer and keep good inventory records and, tempermentally, to be staidly rowdy.   :)

If you just started reading "Folly" you must be with the Trojans.  Makes you sensitive to the "Trojan horses" we've got today.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 01, 2007, 03:01:46 PM
Wow - we have a lot in common.  I have Scottish ancestors, too - one of my "greats" was a MacKenzie.

I'm only on the first chapter - I only have time to read at bedtime, and I find I fall asleep a lot faster sometimes than I want to.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on November 01, 2007, 03:58:40 PM
Sorry, I'm late. That makes something we all three have in common. I was about to say that the " oral tradition", which Donotremove mentioned, only extends as far as within the Scots side of the family.

I was about to post what I'd written, when I leaned over the keyboard and eraced my post because I was inattentive for a passing moment.

There were no Oktoberfest parades; those were Bund parades. The Civic fathers have seen to it that we have since graduated to the "Brownies"(as our generation gradually refered to them) being allowed to wear full regalia, arm-band, swastika displayed on parade flags,etc.  You would not have seen that kind of thing in Germany where there are laws against it.  But recently I have discovered that I can put you in touch with some really nice re-enactors, you know like the Civil War and Revolutionary War kind, except that they like to re-enact the top moments in the field of their various SS units.

One thing really emotionally disturbing about their displays of photos from back when is you can't really see, since they are in their fatigues (and to be sure there is an apparent difference between officers and enlisted men), much of a contrast with photos of US troops from that period until after a few moments when you start to think about it. They all have regulation shaved high over the ears hair-cuts, which were not as apparent following basic training of US troops at the time.  Now it is more currently American.

Anyway, I was too little, back then to have been allowed to go to Oktoberfest, although in later years it was almost always at a lovely autumnal park of the Bavarian Club not far from the suburban home which, by the way, as I've said before, eventually came complete with its own small POW camp for Wehrmacht that we would encounter on our way home from grade-school until our parents handed down to us some rules for how to deal with this by re-routing and avoidance.

I think part of the problem in regard to population factors for Texas is that you had one of the largest POW contingents that there were in the US;in fact,unless I've missed something, the largest.  Which is because you were graced with one of the earlier German settlements -- which begins in the southeastern part of the state. I have my older cousin located near Austin and she probably felt quite at home when she arrived there to live with a daughter's family. I hadn't really thought much about the indigenous population until one day my sister,  after visiting there, gifted me with a baekoevn(sic) recipe; although my memory has forgotten how to spell it accurately, it is essentially a slow baked covered dish of cubed beef, pork,perhaps some bacon, onions, etc.  Then when I started investigating food places on-line in the area, it became obvious that this was one of the few places in the nation where you could still buy freshly baked German bread.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on November 01, 2007, 06:09:30 PM
Quote
The people in the White House firmly believe it our duty to spread liberty & justice and democracy throughout the world and that any hint of any country oppposing us must be met with the threat of force.

Do you believe that they really "firmly believe" this applies to "throughout the world" or just to nations with desirable resources and without sufficient strength (if one discounts a foolish attachment to one's own national sovereignty, or homeland, or tribe, or religion as a source of strength) to deter us?  Why are we not spreading libery, justice and democracy to, say, China?  Are the Chinese somehow less worthy of these noble ideals? 

 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on November 01, 2007, 08:07:22 PM
Well, first of all they outnumber us considerably, have a remarkably huge navy with missiles, may even have a rather quietly kept stockpile of the really big thing as I notice we are readily asking them to intercede with North Korea for us because we are not exactly secure about that.

It isn't that PRC is without resources but we thought we already were close enough to access of their oil reserves in the Western "Stans" by constructing those Rumsfield Lily-pads as permanent basis or the reason that we have to win Iraq. Not that I care to, personally. 

The fact that we owe them a great deal of money, for the credit loans they have made to us, keeps us as an administration, in which I do not actually include myself since I did not vote for it, and I understand they would never give me a job, so I am definitely not part of it, that definitely owes them something more than our version of liberty,justice and democracy which can be bought.

Since Bush has this new latest version of bringing l.,j., and d. to Iraq by dropping a nuclear attack on a defenseless Iran as soon as possible, who knows what this man thinks, since he glibly had Condileeza tell Putin that the reason for placing missile defense bases in Czechoslovakia and Poland on the Russian border -- was because Iran, well,in case Iran attacked Europe! although nobody knows why Iran would?

Putin did not think that very funny and sent her away. (and after he had gone out of his way to visit the Bush vacation retreat at Kennebunkport for his vacation, and lunch with father and son, this summer)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on November 03, 2007, 11:55:28 AM
I have finished reading Prince of the Marshes by Rory Stewart.  I am now more than ever convinced that we (the U.S.) should start pulling out of Iraq, regardless of the hysterical rhetoric that accompanies such a proposal.  The Iraqis have always and forever resisted occupation of any kind, and of anyone trying to wrench them from the "clutches" of Islam (recently the English, 1920, Saddam, 70s, and now the U.S. led Coalition).  Parts of Iraq are already controlled by Iranian money, influence, and weapons.  Where this has/is happened is with the Iraqi aquiescience.  Iraqis doing their own coalition building.  We have to learn to live with and leave alone countries that are comfortable with corruption and thievery, run by tribal chiefs and their minions that are continually killing each other.  We have to come to grips with the fact that real Democracy is unusual, especially the kind practiced here in the U.S., that that it can not be exported; it can only be exampled (which we aren't doing a very good job of right now.)

I was surprised to learn the British do not have a written constitution, that the electricity in Kosovo still does not work after seven years.

In other words, we have to learn to live with "a lot less than ideal" and "messy". 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on November 03, 2007, 11:14:28 PM
The people in the White House firmly believe it our duty to spread liberty & justice and democracy throughout the world and that any hint of any country oppposing us must be met with the threat of force.


If true, then it is time for Bush to invade Pakistan!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on November 04, 2007, 07:43:23 AM
Heavens to Murgatroy, Than, Don't speak that in the presence of the War President. He'll want to bomb them into liberty and happliness.

I am reading the Basque History of the World, and am struck by the fact that the Basque people had no desires to build empire and expand their "Basqueland", but struggled to hold their land independent of the constanting reforming countries on their borders.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on November 04, 2007, 08:19:25 AM
AND they too got to be called, "terrorists" as well.  We used to have a Basque who regularly showed up in Western Europe forum(the old days, nuff'said)with the "living tree" as an icon, and would regularly share opinions on latest movies with Isabel_k although otherwise nothing was exchanged in dialog, silence weeks at a time until spoken to by Isabel_k but no comment on world events. Considering that I came into the forum at the point where the bombing of the Madrid commutter train had first been blamed on the Basques, I can understand the silence.

A major retake of Spain by the Socialists who voted the president out and their candidate in, as a result of that terrorist bombing, made quite clear how things stood and why they voted out the man who cooperated with Bush and was willing to send them,the Spaniards, as troops to Iraq.

The actual fall-out of this took place this last Spring in France when the Bush regime now fully aware, of how New Europe in the Rumsfieldian sense can turn on a dime and return to Old Europe with your ideas of Alliance hanging in the wind, encouraged a similar spin 180 degrees as had occurred in the US elections two in a row. France now has a government call it what you will.

However, time had gone by with further bombings among the major allies, so that the Basque could possibly breathe a sigh of relief, no longer blamed for a terrorist bombing attributed to Muslims, and could talk more about the Living Tree as the symbol of Basque independence.
The Basques in the US are the original sheep-herders of the American West (before the Navaho); and the opener mountain shots of Brokeback, by Ang Li, where you can't quite tell what you are looking at until the motion readily identifies that the moving landscape is the vast herd of sheep which are -- in all parts of the world --moved to upland pasture in  the appropriate season of the year, is one of my favourites(next to the desert shots for Minghella's,The English Patient, or how the wind blows).


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 05, 2007, 10:50:45 AM
I'm still working on March of Folly - guess I'm so late that the discussion is over, as is my wont.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on November 05, 2007, 12:19:57 PM
Weezo,

More on the Basques changing history by being Basque.

This is on the opener page for today's wikipedia, when I went to find some source material in another language:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on November 05, 2007, 04:11:28 PM
Des, never mind being "behind" with the Tuchman book.  We aren't doing anything formal here right now, anyway.  If thoughts about what you're reading come to mind, please post.  When you extropolate the concept of "The Trojan Horse" onto modern situations, it is uncanny how many "Trojans" you can see are in operation today.  And the "folly" of which Tuchman gives many examples is tragically still being practiced today.

Reading world history will show you the changing of seats of power and religions and civilizations over the centuries.  I can see the high probability of Islam becoming dominant.  Yes, even here on this continent.  Remember, when all the peace and light is said and done, with Islam you're either in, or you're an infidel.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on November 05, 2007, 10:55:14 PM
Do Nor,

Are you saying that Islam is different than other religions in rejecting the views of the other religions in favor of their own? Look at the history both in this country and in Europe towards people of other faiths - pograms, inquisitions, denial of rights, and downright persecution. I really do not see much difference in Christianity and Islamism. They are both so convinced theirs is the ONLY way, that they do their best to be intolerant of others.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on November 06, 2007, 03:44:20 AM
Weezo, that was not the focus of my remark.  I'm saying that which religions are dominant changes over long periods of time.  Look at Mexico, Central America, and South America.  Catholicism is losing ground to Evangelical Protestants.  Not in a tidal wave but in a persistant lapping at the shoreline.  Not in one human's lifetime.  Long, historical, periods of time.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on November 06, 2007, 07:49:44 AM
Do Not,

I think Tuchman has a good explanation of why the religion of the Latin American countries that were once solidly Catholic, is making way for another absolute religion.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 06, 2007, 08:47:05 AM
I'm home sick today so will begin reading about the Popes. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on November 06, 2007, 09:56:48 AM
des,

I used to take sick days home when i wanted to read something Big, because at school we read only about nice popes.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 06, 2007, 06:16:32 PM
LOL, mad.  I can't say I've never done that myself.   The old asthma has been kicking up so bad I've been looking a little gray-faced, but went to the doc and got a cortisone shot and a prednisone dosepack, so should be mean as ever in no time.  I heard they had a fire drill at work today, so good thing I didn't go.  Probably would have killed me going down all those stairs then standing out in the cold wind for 30 minutes.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 08, 2007, 01:17:42 PM
Okay, I have to be honest - the Tuchman book pales in comparison to Alison Weir's detailed account of the intrigrue at the Scottish court during Mary Queen of Scot's reign.  Fascinating stuff, whereas I could scream at this popish stuff.  Guess I am just not one for survey books at all.  Tuchman's A Distant Mirror is SO much better than Folly, IMO.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on November 08, 2007, 01:49:38 PM
Dessie,

I know that feeling, when you are reading a book an the style hits you upside the head as offensive. I had the same revulsion when I started to read The Education of Henry Adams. Disgusting tripe, and it won awared? And is on must-read list? Blech!

Three books already discussed on here for future reading include "The Basque History of the World", "Cod" and "Salt" all by Mark Kulanski. I have but one criticism of the Basque History - not enough maps showing the development of the region. I was up to the twentieth century names and dates before I realized that the city/town of Pamploma, famous for the running of the bulls, is in Basqueland, or Euskada (sp). I find it of interest that the medieval times Basque fisherman went on year-long expeditions to places they chose to keep secret, and, rather likely, found their way at time to The New World.

I think a more accurate description of Columbus will be that he introduced Colonization of the New World to Europe. The Father of Euro-Americans? The Disaster from the East?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 08, 2007, 02:43:10 PM
I guess I just do not like broad topics in history - case in point:  The Discoverers, which I hated.  I am more into social and cultural history - I like to read about characters and customs, eccentricities and cataclysms.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on November 08, 2007, 08:51:06 PM
Dessie,

I really did enjoy the Explorers. That was my kind of book.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 08, 2007, 09:08:49 PM
I know Boorstin is very popular with lots of people - I probably would have enjoyed one of his other books better since I've always found the history of exploration very dull.

I'll tell you a really fantastic book is Peter Ackroyd's London:  A Biography.  Anyone who is interested in the city would love it.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on November 10, 2007, 01:56:19 AM
The discussion  has been somewhat slow--due in part, I think, of some readers who didn't get their book yet and others who hadn't finished reading it yet. Still others, I see, are disappointed in he style and that's understandable--she's not the smoothest of writers. Maybe we can give the book a little a shove and sort of restart a more informal discusion based on her theories regarding the Revolution and Vietnam and decision making in general--and not be rigidly bound to the book. History provides repeated examples of nations and leaders acting against their own interests and a discussion of those instances and the effects they produced should make for a fine discussion....

(I rather liked the section on the Popes)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on November 10, 2007, 12:43:37 PM
I liked the section on the Popes, too.  People today like to warn of the dangers of state religion.  This is why this section is important.  Although we can't know if later misconduct would have caused the same uprising; No misconduct on the part of the popes, no reformation, state religion. 

On the other hand, think of the works of art that exist today because of these popes.  A beauty exists here that enhances the spiritual. 



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on November 15, 2007, 10:13:45 PM
Have we come to a dead halt to Tuchman? If the choice of book wasn't good and isn't going to generate discussion, maybe we should look for another title. There's certainly a lot of good title out there. Who wants to continue with Tuchman? Who wants to go on with another book? post on the subject and we'll make a decision. It's a shame just to languish. ???



Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on November 15, 2007, 10:46:01 PM
The greatest controversy on Tuchman was whether or not you liked the section on the popes. There seemed to be no questions about the other sections of the book. Nothing to hook a discussion into. The facts were stated, and the reader tended to agree with the author. We did all see suggestions on the current miasmas in the SE Asian situation.

In the meantime, I am moving through Mark Kurlinski, starting with the Basque History of the World, with Cod and Salt waiting. I read the first chapter of Cod last night when I fell out of sleep with my book in the other room. Cod was handy, and looks to be a good read.

I think some aspect of the problem is that often a book is an excellent read, but does not stir up a controversy such as 1421 did. A book that is not just setting out the uncontroverted facts will lead to more discussion as the reader has to pick and choose what to accept and what to reject. The Farfarers by Farley Mowat is another book that will cause you to question what you read, as it is again speculative history albeit presented better.

I am also reading the translation of Cabeza de Vaca - again a book which can invite discussion because there are some things mentioned which may or may not fit comfortably with facts as we know them now. de Vaca makes mention of a tribe he encountered who had so many "enemies" and was so aggressive against them, that they supposedly killed their own children to prevent them from marrying those "enemies" and having children who would become more "enemies". If de Vaca understood the culture of that tribe, it seems certain that the tribe was in its last generation of existance.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on November 15, 2007, 10:56:59 PM
  Weezo,  I ran across this book this afternoon. I thought you might have an interest in looking at it:

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Savage-Neighbors-Transformed-America/dp/0393062481/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195185164&sr=1-1

OUR SAVAGE NEIGHGBORS by Peter Silver.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: bosox18d on November 16, 2007, 01:43:09 AM
Cod and Salt are both great books but not History in a traditional sense with footnotes and such.They go beyond straight History.I love his style.The last book I have from him is one called 1968 in which he wrote a book about the whole years impact and not just in the USA.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on November 16, 2007, 02:40:20 AM
Whatever everybody decides is all right with me.  Weezo is right about some books not being good for discussion, regardless of how well they are written or what they illuminate.  "Folly" IS a book like that.  Extremely informative, timeless in the truths revealed and meant to be tucked away in memory for reference when reading other works of history.

I have no suggestions.  "Folly" showed me Trojans galore in our world today, and "Prince of the Marshes" by Rory Stewart showed me that we should get out of Iraq ASAP and that we should not attack Iran or Syria or pick-a country as our neocons are so willing to do.

"The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein is showing me what a sucker we've (us and the rest of the world) all been, letting the corporations steal our Democracy, our jobs, our sense of security, our public wealth, turning the planet into a vast slum with misery becoming the norm.  You think this "foreclosure mess" is awful for our country?  Well, yes, it is for the folks now out on the street (or back with relatives), but the lending guys who are taking all those huge markdowns (in the billions, the headlines scream), are they hurting?  Not by a long shot.  They've raked that amount of money in during the housing bubble many times over.  Now it's just a bit of a bottom line adjustment for them.

Beware of the government abbetted corporate thieves that sneak in during the fog and smoke of crisis (real or fake) to steal the shirt off your back.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on November 16, 2007, 07:24:28 AM
One of the things I got out of finishing The Basque History of the World last night was the benefits of eliminating political boundaries and encouraing cultural regions instead. Basqueland was divided in two by a political boundary between France and Spain, leading to the need to use Basqueland as a means around the archaic notion of duties and tarriffs between sovereign nations. With the boundaries softened in the new European coalition, and abatement of the traffic in tarrifs and duties, much of the "criminal" activities of the Basque have been eliminated. This suggests to me that the same could be done on other continents including North America with its current war on Mexican immigrants. Eliminate the border, and eliminate the problems. The border between the US and Canada is more porous and causes fewer problems. Eliminating borders in central America could make commerce and jobs more accessible to those who now live in third-world countries while enhancing the wealth of the whole continent instead of concentrating wealth only in the US.

And, I do agree that we need to seriously rein in the control of the corporations. Labor laws need to be extended on a continent-wide basis to level the playing field and increase the standard of living for those in underdeveloped areas. When the US Constitution was written, the greatest danger to freedom was an oppressive government. Now, it is corporations that curtail our freedoms rather than government.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 16, 2007, 12:27:45 PM
Is anyone here besides me interested in the Wars of the Roses?  I'm interested in discussing that era, particularly Richard III, his apologists, etc.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 16, 2007, 12:28:40 PM
I apologize, Bob, for my lack of contribution to the March discussion.  I'm easily diverted.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on November 16, 2007, 01:51:54 PM
The War of the Roses didn't do much for me when I studied it in college. It would not be my choice for reading.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on November 16, 2007, 01:54:30 PM
The subject is tiresome and confusing on the surface, but it's really interesting once you get past that.  I'm interested to know if there are any good histriographies on the subject.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on November 30, 2007, 10:53:08 PM
Has this forum died aborning? Where are the people who wanted a history forum with a wider span than American History? If you guys want that, you need to come up wiuth something to discuss...I tried, but bombed out , now its your turn...


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on December 01, 2007, 01:19:27 AM
Quote
The last book I have from him is one called 1968 in which he wrote a book about the whole years impact and not just in the USA.

This suggestion from bosox looked interesting to me, perhaps because this year San Francisco celebrated the anniversary of the "Summer of Love."  I'd be up for getting ready to look back on '68 from 40 years beyond, esp. from a broader perspective.   


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on December 01, 2007, 05:37:11 PM
POINT THE WAY::::::Who's the author so I can get the book....are there any other takers. We can get the forum going again . Its an interesting subject. I'm old enough to have lived through the year and remember a lot about it. I was 25 and very much into the Village scene and politics and banking, all at once. It was one hellava year--from Allard Lowenstein to Hubert Humphrey. I damned near made to the White House, but Hubie fell short to Dick Nixon. It was one hellava race. I went from Clean Gene McCarthy to Robert Kennedy to Hubert Humphrey in 10 months flat.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on December 01, 2007, 06:26:24 PM
I think this is it:

http://www.amazon.com/1968-Imago-Mundi-Mark-Kurlansky/dp/8423337065/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196550596&sr=8-1

I also was very much affected by public events in '68, and remember how youth were becoming radicalized and the generations polarized, even (especially?) in the 'burbs.  (A bit later I dated a Frenchman who was very active in Parisian goings-on at the time; I know a little about that but not about events elsewhere.)

 
I could probably get & read it in time for a discussion to start in Jan. '08 but not before.  It's not as scholarly as some here are used to, but there would be chances to augment the material.  (Of course, the last time I thought there was to be a discussion of  an "anniversary" reading, it was of Ten Days That Shook The World and that pretty much came a cropper over in Non-Fiction.  I don't want to jinx anything, so will just tiptoe on out for now and hope Bob, bosox and others will come to the fore.)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 03, 2007, 04:14:20 PM
I'm not trying to be a pain, and if people want to discuss it, that's fine with me, but isn't that American history? 

I'm finishing the book about Mary Queen of Scots and it is JUST WONDERFUL.  That woman's life was so full of drama!  I'm not sure if I agree with Weir's assertion that Mary didn't know of the plot to kill Darnley or that she married Bothwell against her will.  What a ruckus it all caused - the Scottish Lords were as conniving and two-faced as you could imagine.  She really never had a chance.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 03, 2007, 11:41:33 PM

desdemona: The description of the book indicates it also includes: "Prague, Mexico City, Paris, and dozens of other hotspots...the Summer Olympics in Mexico City and a presidential election in the United States conspired to elevate the tension higher as months passed. Kurlansky is skilled at concisely capturing the personalities behind the conflicts, whether they be heartbroken Czech leader Alexander Dubcek as Eastern Bloc troops violently suppress his nation's uprising..."  Do you think a World History forum should exclude material about the US?  (Honest question & fair enough if you do.)




Yet, sometimes a topical book, no matter where it is discussed,includes both material about the US and World History. Let me give you an example:

re:#253  "(Of course, the last time I thought there was to be a discussion of  an "anniversary" reading, it was of Ten Days That Shook The World and that pretty much came a cropper over in Non-Fiction...." 

Ah,yes, when the seal of approval regarding authentic expertise is conveyed by one otherwise  facetiously pronouncing endearments,there's occasionally a slip up like that  of being unprepared  to do a complete summation  of the material. But I was authoritatively informed, in another venue when I posted on the theatrical origins of a G.W. Pabst endeavor, how Brecht had sold out the Weimar proletariat during the theatre season of 1928-29 by depicting them as beggars and thieves, pickpockets and whores; and, yet further,somehow did not pay his dues to the East German Party  in the Fifties  after Senator Nixon HUAC-ed him. Although the understanding had been, when the party  offered him a return home  to Germany, that he certainly could bank his proceeds, from royalties on all continued performances of his libretto, in a Swiss Bank (how else would his living expenses arrive from where ever else in the world his work was seen and heard? is it possible the US froze his accounts in the US?)      Sometimes there is this inability to perceive that presently condemning an artist for insufficient Communism in the face of rising National Socialism on the cusp of the Third Reich is fatuous from a point of view situated  at present in the US.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on December 04, 2007, 11:25:55 AM
Seems to me that World History would not exclude history of any graphical location, whether or not it included the United States.  I can not personally recommend Kurlansky's The Basque History of the World because it seems so "dry" to me and about as hard to stay with as with Tuchman's Popes.  But Kurlansky's 1968 sounds interesting.

Whatever you all decide.

Right now I'm reading essays, memoirs, and a biography of Freya Stark.  I finished Colin Thubron's The Shadow of the Silk Road but he spends (per his usual) too much time walking over sites gone to dust hundreds-thousands of years ago (some to REALLY be imagined now since they are buried under 40 feet of sand  :) ) and you have only Thubron's resurrected history to tide you over until he moves on, so that only a Thubron fan (like me) would put up with it.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on December 04, 2007, 01:16:10 PM
Donot,

I thoroughly enjoyed The Basque History of the World by Kurlansky. I had never before been aware of that part of the world, and enjoyed learning about the history of a hidden away region. I've been doing some work on early man, and wonder, with the prominent noses, if the Basque are not descendents of the supposedly "lost" Neanderthal Man. DNA would confirm it, and I'd have to re-read the section in the book on the DNA discoveries. It said that Basque DNA went back to original man in Europe and their language is not Indo-European.

So, I found it an excellent read and would recomment it. I also enjoyed Cod and am enjoying Salt, so I would probably like 1968.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 04, 2007, 01:54:27 PM
desdemona: The description of the book indicates it also includes: "Prague, Mexico City, Paris, and dozens of other hotspots...the Summer Olympics in Mexico City and a presidential election in the United States conspired to elevate the tension higher as months passed. Kurlansky is skilled at concisely capturing the personalities behind the conflicts, whether they be heartbroken Czech leader Alexander Dubcek as Eastern Bloc troops violently suppress his nation's uprising..."  Do you think a World History forum should exclude material about the US?  (Honest question & fair enough if you do.)



Well, like I said, if several people want to discuss a book about US history hear, so be it.  It's just that I dislike US history so much ...  that's why I never contribute in the American history forum.  But that just me, and I don't want to be selfish about it.

What is the name of the book you are proposing again, nytemps?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 04, 2007, 01:56:20 PM
Never mind about that title, nytemps.  It's all over the place.  Guess I should have opened my eyes before asking.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 04, 2007, 05:04:12 PM
[/color
Seems to me that World History would not exclude history of any graphical location, whether or not it included the United States.  I can not personally recommend Kurlansky's The Basque History of the World because it seems so "dry" to me and about as hard to stay with as with Tuchman's Popes.  But Kurlansky's 1968 sounds interesting.

Whatever you all decide.

Right now I'm reading essays, memoirs, and a biography of Freya Stark.  I finished Colin Thubron's The Shadow of the Silk Road but he spends (per his usual) too much time walking over sites gone to dust hundreds-thousands of years ago (some to REALLY be imagined now since they are buried under 40 feet of sand  :) ) and you have only Thubron's resurrected history to tide you over until he moves on, so that only a Thubron fan (like me) would put up with it.


Donotremove,

Colin Thubron's  account of the Silk Road has suddenly appeared in the current issue of The New York Review of Books; haven't read their review as yet, still searching for what they did with last issue's material which was an outline of  all their Mailer reviews, all were available, and I hope they didn't cut them off as a nice unit since interest was expressed in reading more.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on December 05, 2007, 07:27:52 PM
How aboiut somthing on the French Revolution or, going back again, about the Russian Revolution--how about a book about Stalin or the collapse of the Soviet Union?

Any interest in the Middle Ages---Some one  said they just finished MARY QUEEN OF SCOTS---thats a good subject.

Better still, a history of Iraq, a history of the Palestinian question, the influence of the Ottoman Empire. WWI got a lot of stuff out there.

Lets bring up specifc areas and then narrow things down.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on December 05, 2007, 08:55:53 PM
Desdemona, the hubby is a Richard III apologist, but he won't type.  He says he has a life.  (That's a knock on me, not anyone else.)  He says R3 didn't really have a hump and his advisers could have been doing the murdering, with R3 finding about it after the fact.   If Richard was so bad, why did his brother Edward appoint him Regent of the two children while minors?  One would think Edward would have placed their welfare with someone he trusted.  Ergo, Edward likely trusted R3; and Edward would be in a position to make a good judgment on that topic.

The Duke of Clarence (another brother), whom he did drown in wine, R3 did because the guy was trying to take the throne/lead a revolt. Survival, pure and simple.

Richard III also enacted a number of (judicial?) reforms for the poor. 

Basically, Henry VII had to legitimize his reign, being a bastard and all, so he trashed his predecessor, Richard III.  Or at least, that's one opinion. 

Your Mary Queen of Scots book isn't by any chance by Margaret George, is it?  (it's a historical novel, so probably not)

Hubby also is interested in Simon deMontfort, but for now he's switched to the American Civil War, reading the trilogy about Chickamauga and other area battles.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 05, 2007, 10:31:53 PM
Bob,

The Making of Revolutionary Paris,

by, David Garrioch

Univ. of Calif.Press

Probably in paperback by now.

The illustrations clarify some things about the physical city, which would inevitably lead to a revolution if you had to live like that.

Some of us talking about more recent riots, like those of last November (not to mention last week being the all time great for this season), tended to consider that places carry their history or their "aura", which ever school you are coming from, and therefore are just bound to attract the same behavior repetitiously in cycles.

If you recall your own reflections on New York and Robert Moses and what this effects, you may see what I'm getting at. In any case,I felt that Garrioch brings up an idea of the physical infrastructure that is a slap in the face to Baron Haussman's Second Empire Remake.   Moving city citizens out to the suburbs to live in Post WW2 projects so that they have to commute into the city to their jobs, leads to something that  happens because you pushed them back into the city to work when things that they bought locally as Paris residents are not available in the former industrial suburbs (as in a Renoir painting). So now they pick these things up on the way home by metro  as New Yorkers may or may not have done half a century ago.

This opens up the possibility of a transportation strike! And then the conservatives complain that they can't put up with this socialist  attitude any longer.  My friend of that party, who might normally begrudge not his fellow countryman, informed me two weeks ago that it was inconvenient to get up to catch the 6:30a.m. metro to Luxembourg Gardens when you were packed in like sardines; but, no one wants to have lost a job at the Bureau of Labour, by being late for work. After all, if you have a good job, Parisians get beautiful vacations (which may be the next thing to go in the Sarkozy revanchement. He is very good friends with the Bush menage; N.Sarkozy that is. But then so is V. Putin.
Damned clever that Bush famille).


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 05, 2007, 10:54:39 PM
Harrie, wot'wit, I am glad to see you have a family that you trust. However, be sure to tell the hubby that where would we be today without Laurence Olivier having given us Richard the III? (in his own inimitable style)--

"If Richard was so bad, why did his brother Edward appoint him Regent of the two children while minors?  One would think Edward would have placed their welfare with someone he trusted.  Ergo, Edward likely trusted R3; and Edward would be in a position to make a good judgment on that topic.

The Duke of Clarence (another brother), whom he did drown in wine, R3 did because the guy was trying to take the throne/lead a revolt."

Therefore it follows as does day from night that Rich advised some henchmen to dunk the kids in the barrel of wine because logically, having rid himself of somebody like Clarence right from the get-go, those whelps of Edward's had a legitimate right to the throne(after their Uncle?) Uncle Richard is however peeved anyway for Edward IV having access to the French Throne which Gloucester so desired.  And I verily know that Shakespeare preferred to construct more convoluted dramas than history actually provided. Now, watch Whisky step forward from the wings and move swiftly down stage to tell all that the line is actually,"it follows as does night from day ...".


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on December 05, 2007, 11:22:38 PM
madupont, doesn't Shakespeare kind of fall into the category of historic novel?  Just kidding. But that's what's fun about the Richard III debate; for every point, there are often several counterpoints.

Hubby maintains that whacking the kids -- if R3 had anything to do with it -- was justifiable, as they constituted a direct threat to him, and that's the way they did things then.  The threat being that the kids were influenced by their mother's family, the Woodvilles - a family that had a history of sibling rivalry-ish run-ins with R3. The influence of the Woodvilles on the nephews (or the nephew that matters) could easily weaken or unseat Richard III.  Again, survival - the core primary directive.

Plus, many sources maintain that the bones in the tower are inconsistent with the bones of the two nephews.  The bones found are considered by some to be more large and developed than the nephews' would have been.

Plus plus, for an example of rulers' ruminations gone awry -- Henry II (?) saying "Rid me of this troublesome priest" or something like that and next thing you know, Thomas Becket is toast. Did Henry II really intend for anyone to off Becket, or was he just venting, thinking aloud or whatever?



Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 06, 2007, 01:56:35 AM
harrie,

I have just spent two hours unraveling the things whereof you speak(as some of my friends would say) as well as nytempsperdu's recommendation, for I have discovered the marvelous Tey of historical fiction, otherwise known as Gordon  D.   She wrote plays and mysteries, so did he. One and the same. Scotswoman. A woman after my own heart(say that with a "burr")who practiced calisthenics when she was assigned to time out in the cloakroom at school. She had to go  home to take care of her father in his later years; so amidst the running of the house, she entertained herself with writing.  This sounds very familiar to me.

With the plays,she met John Gielgud, who wrote of her after her death(her cremation was scheduled the same day as the Royal funeral procession of Elizabeth II's father to Paddington station, and within the same vicinity)that he had known her for twenty years but she rarely spoke of herself, her past, she remained a mystery. Gielgud suspected she had lost "somebody" in the War to end all wars,because she was sometimes vehement about the war. Also, I think so too, as one of the things that she bequeathed the nation(amidst all her royalties for books and plays, and belongings)was a Victorian ring that she  always wore;not as one would suspect of the onyx variety(I collect that stuff)which was mourning jewelry but, one that was quite set with emeralds and rubies. Gielgud noted that.

Then, Laurence Olivier enters the picture. He liked her a lot; but, you know Larry. Anyway, another great actor took up her cause(Josephine Tey's)of the real Dickon (No kidding. Olivier must have loved that when she sent him the play  and asked him to do it,immediately following Richard the Third, and he declined because it just didn't fit into his schedule, he was already over-scheduled, not saying with what, but it was the polite way of not hurting her feelings. Maxwell Anderson eventually wrote the nice Richard play and called it,Richard and Anne.

Meanwhile, that other actor, i think his name was Arthur Clark (I recall his face from the films of the era) invited Olivier that they might be interviewed together because he had founded the American Richard III Society, for the repair of his reputation, only to discover the Australians had been at it with a society of their own for some seven years or something of the kind.

About now, I was convinced we should do what nytempsperdu advised--when the thought occurred to me, but that's another kind of history isn't it, theatrical or literary or what have you and this is World History forum?

But you are clearly right about the bones, having been dug out of a stairwell* they were transferred to Westminster Abbey by the Queen, were later exhumed for examination when they were found to be an admixture with animal bones and there were peculiar things that I was not going to mention but I shall, like one of the boys seemed to have had his teeth knocked out...

They were returned to their interment, and the Queen gave orders that they were never to be disturbed again!  I presume this is our present one and only but I have been known to make mistakes before re: Queen Mother of the present Queen who was a fabulous lady from Scotland but I could not make up my mind with any clarity which of two actresses had been summoned by Helen Mirren as there are two Sylvia Syms, one British, the other not, plus my fave Sylvia Sidney who was once married to Bennett Cerf. Sidney was a Russian Yiddish theater ingenue whose father did not want her out of the house (in the Bronx) but mothers of actresses always understand and she convinced her husband that it was perfectly all right for Sophie to study acting at age 15 going on 16,whatever. Marriage to Cerf lasted one year(more like three months).

I was convinced that Helen Mirren had a tender moment for an old theatrical lady with something in common since Helen is also of Russian descent. You'd never know it to see her in the Peter Greenaway films. But, then, the Sylvia Syms delivery of Queen Mary's wonderful wry jokes was horrible and I stayed mystified for quite awhile after doing a schmaltzy review of The Queen. I was in love with the script writing of Peter Morgan, because I laughed all the way through the film--at the Brit humour, and like you exposed myself to his take, titled: The Last King of Scotland.

Now, here's another thing that you mentioned,"Plus, many sources maintain that the bones in the tower are inconsistent with the bones of the two nephews.  The bones found are considered by some to be more large and developed than the nephews' would have been."

Take a look at these two depictions by renowned painters, as if this were
Art History class and here we have slides, of course these are four centuries after the fact so there is no truth to the matter but it is interesting how later ages viewed "the lads".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DelarocheKingEdward.jpg     1830

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Princes.jpg   1878 ?

The kids are kind of skulking adolescents by Delaroche, while Millais perceives them as "innocent pubescent" children.

Secretly, I tend to agree with your Hubby, on this one. But your last remark, you may have to take up with desdemona222 because i seem to recall that we had a battle royal about the hacking up of Thomas a Becket, a Norman clergyman sent, by what the French consider "a Saint", to handle matters of diplomacy across the channel.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 06, 2007, 02:13:25 AM
Ps. Harrie,

That asterisk at stairwell* refers to the base that support the stairs, which is always used in mystery stories to hide someone who gets stuck in there behind a panel that won't open. In this case, they may have been sealed in ? But, then again, not.  I'm thinking of the architecture in Pyne Hall and other places "Gothic".

One reason that I rather agree with your Hubby is the fact that the boys were not seen in the courtyards taking the air after 1483, I believe that's the correct date.  Picture same unlovely place in which Thomas More served his time prior to execution and that there was a courtyard below with plane trees  when, Man for all Seasons, was filmed.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on December 06, 2007, 12:28:18 PM
Thomas Cahill’s How the Irish Saved Civilization is an accessible popular history that is not too long and it’s in paperback at a reasonable price. Here is a link.

http://www.randomhouse.com/features/cahill/irish.html

Another book folks might find stimulating is Garry Will’s Lincoln at Gettysburg, The Words That Remade America.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 06, 2007, 12:53:36 PM
1.  Regarding Mary Queen of Scots -

I am finishing Mary Queen of Scot and the Murder of Lord Darnley by Alison Weir, and it is not a novel.  I'm also doing a comparative reading of Mary Queen of Scots by Antonia Frasier, a very old book I've read several times before.   Weir's book is fantastic -  I cannot say enough about how interesting it is, and I think it would make for a great discussion because there are murky areas in the primary resources and Weir makes her own case for Mary, contrary to the conclusions many other historians have reached.  Weir also points out frequently the various historical viewpoint on certain things, and you can make an argument many different ways.  She is also good enough to include copious direct quotes from primary resources, including letters.  Not only is this story far more melodramatic than any soap opera, it's truly mysterious on many levels. 

2.  Richard III - I've read several books on Richard III.  I liked The Princes in the Tower, again by Alison Weir, about a year ago.  It is also very interesting and well-written.  What I love so much about this period is the high drama of it.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 06, 2007, 01:08:07 PM
madupont, doesn't Shakespeare kind of fall into the category of historic novel?  Just kidding. But that's what's fun about the Richard III debate; for every point, there are often several counterpoints.

Hubby maintains that whacking the kids -- if R3 had anything to do with it -- was justifiable, as they constituted a direct threat to him, and that's the way they did things then.  The threat being that the kids were influenced by their mother's family, the Woodvilles - a family that had a history of sibling rivalry-ish run-ins with R3. The influence of the Woodvilles on the nephews (or the nephew that matters) could easily weaken or unseat Richard III.  Again, survival - the core primary directive.

Plus, many sources maintain that the bones in the tower are inconsistent with the bones of the two nephews.  The bones found are considered by some to be more large and developed than the nephews' would have been.

Plus plus, for an example of rulers' ruminations gone awry -- Henry II (?) saying "Rid me of this troublesome priest" or something like that and next thing you know, Thomas Becket is toast. Did Henry II really intend for anyone to off Becket, or was he just venting, thinking aloud or whatever?



There isn't much doubt in my mind that Henry II intended Beckett's assasination, but I think he did act rashly and out of passion.   He obviously was extemely contrite about it.

Regarding Richard III and just what he did and did not do, oh my what a fantastic subject!  It's truly an historical mystery, because the closest thing to a contemporary primary souce it Thomas Moore's history written during the reign of Henry VII.  His document is the basis of Shakespeare's play - it demonizes Richard III and accuses him of coniving a plot to have  Clarence executed for treason and killing Edward the son of Henry VI who was true heir to the throne (Edward IV was a usurper), Henry VI, and the princes.   Richard III apologists say he was a great king and claim that he didn't kill anyone, even the princes.  They claim that Henry VII killed the princes, but that's nonsense.  BTW, they have compared the DNA from the bones in the tower to the bones of an aunt of the princes, and there was a match - besides, who else would it be if not the princes?  They were definitely the bones of children.

Few historians take everything Thomas Moore wrote as gospel, but I believe much of what he wrote was true because he was a very honest individual and I don't think he was the type of man who had the lack of morals it would take to invent the accusations out of whole cloth at the orders of Henry VII.  He did got to the block under the reign of Henry VIII for standing up to him, after all.

The Richard III society discusses, among many things, the question of just what constituted a "good" king in those brutal times.  By the standards of behavior in those days, the nobility could do just about anything they wanted and it was considered normal and justified because of the belief that the king was appointed by God.

I firmly believe Richard had his own little nephews killed, but as for the other killings, I think they are subject to sheer speculation.  There is little to prove, for example, that the Duke of Clarence was not indulging in treasonous behavior in cahoots with Warwick the Kingmaker for quite some time before he was finally executed.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 06, 2007, 06:29:37 PM
desdemona222, re:#272

"they have compared the DNA from the bones in the tower to the bones of an aunt of the princes, and there was a match - besides, who else would it be if not the princes?  They were definitely the bones of children."  I consider that the reason Elizabeth II forbade any more tampering; that they may rest in peace.


"He did got to the block under the reign of Henry VIII for standing up to him, after all."

That alone is why the Roman Church considers him St. Thomas More, he upheld the Pope's authority to withold an annulment for a marriage that had been consumated.

So although "the King was appointed by God", God did not condone the King breaking the Laws of God.

I also sense it was quite probable and not considered suitable conjecture, simply because the Victorian age lay between us and the relationship of the archbishop Thomas a Becket and Henry,the IInd. which was a period when one could readily suppose but  one never knew if you did not place yourself at risk  to spread rumor, which our era was able to grasp in the performances of Burton and O'Toole --that their friendship was uncommon close.  Which implied Henry was not only extremely contrite but sorry to excess.   It was obvious that their lineage was hot-tempered and they had very little reason to restrict their
impulses.

I recall being utterly amazed how many books Alison Weir had churned out; a consumate history buff.  I thought you might be interested to know that Gielgud, moreso than Olivier, had thoughts about how Mary Queen of Scots was played, a direct cause of the dialogue written by the playwright Miss Tey, because of her "attitude" which was of course rather virginal. Come to think of it, Olivier did mention that too.  As Englishmen themselves, they take a different stance on Mary and felt strongly as actors that Tey did not write certain more erotic elements into Mary's character because Tey herself would not perceive them.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 06, 2007, 06:58:48 PM
Harrie

An after thought. It did not occur to me last night when the name of Simon de Montfort came up.   We have several fans in the house, not in particular of Montfort because they may not have considered him ( I know for a fact that my name and honesty was dragged about and battered upside my head figuratively speaking, by a person who could not understand that those whom  SdM persecuted died because of it but that their lineage did not run out although  they had practiced celibacy rather more than the average. 

After I was accused of "plagiarism" by someone copybooking with regularity, there was this continuing unawareness that "the Perfect" had taken a path that would then be taken by the Huguenot, continuing an anti-Divine Right of Monarchs  along with anti the Roman Church to determine their way of relating to their fellow man and God, eventually culminating in the Revolution of 1788-89.) but the person that fans in the house very much enjoy reading is Marcel Proust. Following his death, with a museum to be kept just as she had kept house for him in Paris, Madame Alberet removed to the region of his ancestors at Montfort l'Amaury.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on December 06, 2007, 08:18:55 PM
What is the title of the book on the Silk Road? That subject interests me. I suspect too many others have already read it to get a discussion going.

Another area of world history that I would like to learn more about is the history told by anthropologists on how early man branched out from Africa to other continents. Are there any books out recent enough to take into consideration the discovery of the human hobbits in Indonesia?

The stories being shared about Mary Queen of Scots sounds interesting, but I'm not terribly fond of reading of the doings of kings and queens so much as reading about what the ordinary people were doing at the time. I really enjoyed Cod, and am enjoying Salt so much because they are more about what ordinary people did through history with only some explanation of how the "rulers" interfered from time to time.

That said, I would enjoy reading another Kurlansky book, so if others want to read 1968, I am game!



Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on December 06, 2007, 09:38:48 PM
Desdemona, I was not aware of the DNA testing.

As for
Quote
Few historians take everything Thomas Moore wrote as gospel, but I believe much of what he wrote was true because he was a very honest individual and I don't think he was the type of man who had the lack of morals it would take to invent the accusations out of whole cloth at the orders of Henry VII.  He did got to the block under the reign of Henry VIII for standing up to him, after all.

Here it becomes a little he said-she said in my opinion, because I find it not completely implausible that Moore might slant his account to suit Henry VII.  Sure, he still stood up to Henry VIII, but maybe he didn't like Henry VIII as much as HVII.  Meaning, if Moore had a good relationship with VII, trusted him, believed him to be basically a moral guy or whatever was expected of a good king at the time, maybe he would have, if not created out of whole cloth, embellished some of the facts about R3.  Whereas if Moore thought Henry VIII to be a complete jerk, or didn't respect him for whatever reason, he might easily have told him to go pound sand and taken his trip to the block.

I understand looking to Moore for a contemporary history of the time; but I sometimes prefer a little distance, timewise, to put things in perspective.  A contemporary history would be good for giving you the climate of the times, political or otherwise; but that same climate could  also have colored Moore's writings. 


I've just started reading some of this stuff, but I'm taking a long look at Buckingham (I'll refrain from saying "with the candlestick in the dining room") as a serious possibility to have killed the princes. Again, major disclaimer: I've just started looking at this topic.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 06, 2007, 11:33:54 PM
Harrie,  I am posting this up --http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14689c.htm

St.Thomas More


Because, if I don't, Bob will; but I might as well, as it makes far clearer why he would not do certain things. They were not in his nature. He had a remarkable career: a more pleasant fellow one was unlikely to meet.(and,of course, was depicted in the movie, A Man for All Seasons, as exactly that and a good friend to  King Henry the VIII, with interests in common like being able to play music together, the king was in fact given to composing music and would want the approval of Thomas More)

A more likely actor to play the role of Thomas More than Paul Scofield was relatively unlikely.  It is what is know in dramatic roles as a "tour de force" of impressive character. Likewise the most interesting roles of their lifetime were Susanna York as his daughter Margaret whom he had unhesitatingly educated, Wendy Hiller as Dame Alice (More's second wife), and Vanessa Redgrave as Anne Boleyn.

A scene that captured to me the essence of the man was played opposite Scofield by John Hurt as Sir Richard Rich, in which a dialogue between them has to do with the acceptance of a bribe as giving in to a temptation that will radically sway your judgment for ever more. You will note at the link above in the course to the outcome of his life, the mention of Richie Rich playing a part  that brings about the end of Thomas More's life, by giving false evidence (the very thing that the playwright/screenwriter Robert Bolt works into the screen play through that early scene.

The quality of upper class life in England in their day is beautifully rendered and the grace with which More readily accepted reduced circumstances, a thing so clearly depicted in the set design for the interior of his house becoming depleted of its furnishings and appointments and the entrance of his daughter running into the house barefoot with sickle in hand from cutting grain followed by her fiance who had been helping her in the field because of course they can not longer afford to pay, to keep, house servants and field hands.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060665/fullcredits#cast

The arrival of Robert Shaw ( a close friend of Richard Burton's at the time) on the Thames to visit More's home is about as enjoyable a commotion as you could ever witness on film.  Shaw died not long after from excessive drink.  The scene itself of the arrival, the setting described in the biographical link, reminds me now very much of a similar estate that William Penn set up for himself along the Delaware River, known as Pennsbury Manor with a barge midway along the approach to the house from the river, so that he could pole down the river to Penn's Landing in Philadelphia.  Although the house in his case is in the Georgian style and quite unlike the Old English decor of the reign of Henry VIII, life at Pennsbury was still marked by quite casual manners as to where one ate, and where one slept ,etc. often in the same room.  Another most interesting house to me, but over in Kent, is Long Barn, Seven Oaks, all that was left to Vita Sackville-West(the Honorable Lady Nicolson), just the barns of the estate given by Henry the VIII to her ancestors. Because there was no male heir in her generation, the gift reverted to the Crown; and it broke her heart, she was never allowed through the locked gates or to climb over the walls in her tom-boyish way, and roam the stables or the halls.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on December 07, 2007, 08:09:01 AM
Read an interesting comment in Alan Taylor's  "Divided Ground", when one of the chiefs of the Iriquoise Nation was being told that in order to be considered "civilized", Native men would have to work in the fields rather than hunt, and their women, who tended the gardens would be remanded to tending house. A sachem pointed out that among the colonists, the "gentlemen" never toiled in the fields, but ordered their slaves to do it for them, male and female. The chief compared his warriers to colonial gentlement and di not want them to be downgraded to the status of African slaves. He made an excellent point - why should Natives be assigned to the status of commoners, servants and slaves, when they saw themselves as the equivanlent of "gentlemen".


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on December 07, 2007, 09:00:02 AM
It must be remember that "gentlemen" abounded in Jamestown----and because they refused to work, the colony almost starved to death.

Because the natives, like the gentlemen in Jamestown, refused to change and accomodate, they disintegrated as a civilization. I think it was one of the more serious errors made. However, only in hindsight can that be said. When the decision was made it was looked on as a very rational view.

I have the Taylor  book, its excellent.

By the way, the new AMERICAN HERITAGE has an article "How We Found Jamestown," by William Kelso--haven't read it yet, I just got the magazine--but I'll be reading it over the weekend.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on December 07, 2007, 01:39:21 PM
Genius that I am, I have maneuvered myself into the position of making an argument that I'm totally unequipped to make; so I am recusing myself from the R3 debate.   I do have the feeling that when I'm done with the reading I've lined up, I'll probably come out somewhere in the middle -- that is that R3, while no saint, may have been painted in a less than flattering light for whatever reason.  In my opinion at the moment, human nature is reason enough for that, ie the victors write the history.

Just FYI, Looking for Richard is on this afternoon at 4:30 on IFC.  It's basically a behind the scenes discussion of Shakespeare (and likely R3) as they prepare a production of .....(drum roll, please) Richard III


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 08, 2007, 01:41:17 AM
harrie,

Darn, I was mailing my sister's Christmas package, stopping for a bite to eat at S.Clyde Weaver while picking up a few of their groceries and charcuterie to take home after stopping off to see:No Country for Old Men
(but I have seen Looking for Richard, in the past. However, I could use another session about now, after looking into all of this stuff, I have a hard time with Al Pacino -- at his age! Much less Winona Ryder as Lady Anne! No way, not after seeing Claire Bloom in the part; or rather hearing her rendition of the lines, in my childhood, no less).


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 08, 2007, 01:46:32 AM
harrie,
no actually,I have to take that back... I was already in the theatre for at least a year as an ingenue, either doing something like,Our Town, or Graham Green's,The Potting Shed, and so on and so forth. So I was absolutely bowled over, corny as it sometimes looks watching the replay of the film occasionally on tv, at least on the small screen. All of the Olivier's have to be seen big screen. He  used to put the camera up a railway narrow gauge track to run parallel to the horses in the opening of the battle-scenes like Bosworth Field, etc.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 08, 2007, 11:55:45 AM
Listen Up!  Microsoft has just discovered what a friend phoned to tell me their Computer Tech  has put up bulletins throughout their workplace that a New Virus gets into your e-mail and then sends you an e-mail which tells you that A FAMILY MEMBER IS TRYING TO CONTACT YOU

DO NOT OPEN.  IT WILL TURN OFF YOUR COMPUTER. WHEN YOU START YOUR COMPUTER AGAIN, IT WILL DESTROY YOUR HARD DRIVE


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 10, 2007, 10:52:21 AM
nytemps -

Weir has written at least one historical novel - Innocent Traitor, about Lady Jane Grey.  I bought it thinking it was a biography - it's not very good.  Most of her books are biographies and histories.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 10, 2007, 10:52:59 AM
So tell me, harrie, what are you going to read on the subject of Richard III?  Maybe I can join you.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on December 10, 2007, 01:08:09 PM
Well, desdemona, since you ask -- in house we have Richard III by Michael Hicks. I think we might have more on him specifically, but I can't get to that bookcase right now (it involves moving furniture).   We also have The Wars of the Roses by Alison Weir, who I understand you don't care for, but I figured I might be able to get some background info out of it.   Weir also wrote The Princes in the Tower; and I figure it might be somewhere in the house, because Richard III is a specific person in whom the hubby is interested. 

I haven't even cracked the books, so I can't tell you whether I like or dislike Weir's works.  I also won't be reading these in the next five minutes because I'm doing two books already -- Fast Food Nation and Everything is Illuminated -- and if I add a third to the mix, I won't finish any of them.

Do you have an opinion as to the credibility of www.r3.org? 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 10, 2007, 02:49:59 PM
No, I love Weir.  The Wars of the Roses by her is great!  Also The Princes in the Tower - fantastic book.  That's the book with the DNA info I was talking about.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 10, 2007, 02:51:02 PM
I see where you thought I dislike Weir - I just don't like the novel I have by her - her nonfiction is wonderful, though.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 10, 2007, 02:57:12 PM
I'm not an expert on Richard III, harrie, so don't know if that website has reliable info or not. 

I did get to see the famous portrait of Richard III at the National Portrait Gallery in London - that was neat.  Weir says that an x-ray revealed that it was painted over and the original painting does not show any final deformity.  Some historians have concluded that this is proof Richard III did not have a spinal deformity, but I think that's a simplistic conclusion.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on December 10, 2007, 03:10:23 PM
caclark: I have an as yet unread copy of that Irish salvation of civ. book and would be glad to read it along with others if it is chosen. 

Same here. How the Irish Saved Civilization is a book that has been gathering dust on my bookshelf for years without me getting around to reading it. When I die, I will no doubt leave behind many such books. Alas.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 10, 2007, 09:39:01 PM
Harrie,re:#288

"I'm doing two books already -- Fast Food Nation and Everything is Illuminated..."

So what do you think, easy read, or hard to decipher the Foer dialect? It became one of the more interesting unclassifiable movies that I've seen because it covers so many things; thus, Everything is Illuminated.

Neurotic young men tucked away in centralized Jewish communities within the boroughs of New York; Ukrainian History; socio-political exposition from the front-seat of a taxi-cab; glimpses of labor customs at work sites which you might rather not know too much about; what is on the menu in out of the areas of the Old Country; your ability to solve mysteries by catching sight of strange details and rapidly putting unusual insights together; a beautiful and mysterious peasant woman who has survived (and whose own story as an actress born in Warsaw ghetto is even more mysterious);etc.

Last but not least, what is the meaning of Odessa, throughout history?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on December 11, 2007, 01:37:20 PM
madupont,
I have to admit that initially I hated Everything is Illuminated and contemplated putting it down a couple of times.  I was an English major so reading is second nature; but as I've aged I've become much less patient with style gimmicks, and the whole "don't spleen me" thing was really wearing on my nerves.   Probably because I read more non-fiction these days than in the past, I have a really low tolerance for artfully weaving a story with style, style and more style; I'm more inclined to think "Just spill it!" 

Luckily (in a way), I had to go for some blood work and there was a semi-lengthy wait.  I brought the book with me; and given the choice of reading or listening to other nattering waiting-room denizens, I made some headway into the book.  Past all the "don't spleen me" stuff at least, and it's getting more meaty, interesting, what have you. 

Though I must admit I haven't picked it up in a couple of days, I do plan to do so eventually.   I want to see the whole movie, too; I have a feeling I might prefer the movie, actually. (especially if they gloss over the whole "spleen me" bit)   

And this sort of relates to world history albeit in an extremely tangential, fictional way, so I am not completly off-topic!  For once!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 11, 2007, 02:39:59 PM
harrie -

I just ordered Richard III by Michael Hicks along with Warwick the Kingmaker by same.  Maybe we could read Richard III together?

Also ordered another bio on Mary Queen of Scots - already forgot who the author is.

Thanks loads for the tip-off on Hicks - I have been looking for another expert on Medieval and Yorkist England, but didn't know of him.  He wrote lots of books I'd like to have but Jay-us are they EXPENSIVE.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on December 11, 2007, 06:40:41 PM
  Maybe we could read Richard III together?

Sure.  Do you want to pick a starting date, ballpark or otherwise?  Or just start reading and after a while, say something? 


Quote
He wrote lots of books I'd like to have but Jay-us are they EXPENSIVE.

Holy crap! - they sure are.  I bought that one a few years ago; and since it was a present, all the prices are inked or cut.  But I'd have to guess it's out of print these days or something, to get the prices I saw on Amazon.  I know I didn't (spelled w-o-u-l-d-n-'-t) spend that kind of dough on a book.  Unless it was the book that layed the golden eggs, of course.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 12, 2007, 09:41:14 AM
I've been thinking about the topic here - "World History" - and that term does imply broad topics, which many of you enjoy a great deal.  I wonder if the administrator would grant us narrower topics in history, such as European history, Biographies, etc? 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 12, 2007, 09:43:55 AM
Who all is going to read 1968?

Harrie -

I'll let you know when I get the book in the mail.  I'd say go ahead and get started reading on the subject now if you like.  The Princes in the Tower is a great comparative read.  Too bad I've lost my copy.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on December 12, 2007, 10:49:59 AM
Dessie,

I'm going to order 1968 in the next few days and it will take as long as it takes for it to get here. I'm kinda full up with things to be done with the holidays approaching.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 12, 2007, 11:07:41 AM
So there are at least two of you, weezo.  I was just curious.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 12, 2007, 04:36:37 PM
]
madupont,
I have to admit that initially I hated Everything is Illuminated and contemplated putting it down a couple of times.  I was an English major so reading is second nature; but as I've aged I've become much less patient with style gimmicks, and the whole "don't spleen me" thing was really wearing on my nerves.   Probably because I read more non-fiction these days than in the past, I have a really low tolerance for artfully weaving a story with style, style and more style; I'm more inclined to think "Just spill it!" 

Luckily (in a way), I had to go for some blood work and there was a semi-lengthy wait.  I brought the book with me; and given the choice of reading or listening to other nattering waiting-room denizens, I made some headway into the book.  Past all the "don't spleen me" stuff at least, and it's getting more meaty, interesting, what have you. 

Though I must admit I haven't picked it up in a couple of days, I do plan to do so eventually.   I want to see the whole movie, too; I have a feeling I might prefer the movie, actually. (especially if they gloss over the whole "spleen me" bit)   

And this sort of relates to world history albeit in an extremely tangential, fictional way, so I am not completly off-topic!  For once!


"I was an English major so reading is second nature; but as I've aged I've become much less patient with style gimmicks..."

Gotcha. Being in this position myself, I've taken a lot of heat about it prior to being in this subsequent version of forums from soup to nuts. Somebody asked me last week, what I look for (in a book) and my answer was style. But that was apparently insignificant for what ever point the questioner had in mind.  Appreciating writing style makes one extremely turned off by gimmicks that many writers of best-sellers believe is their style. In this case, however, said writer probably wanted to convey the "colorful dialogue and linguistic tricks east of Novgorod". It still was a "style gimmick". I suspected as much when the forum moderator liked the idea of "our" reading it.

Yet, it makes a very good movie. Catches you off guard however, because you might sit down on a Saturday afternoon, click it on and it seems like a quaint very relaxing comedy until it irritatingly asks what are you laughing at? It does that for a purpose, it wants you to consider what the heck is going on here, these people are revealing a whole culture, and some of it turns out to be very unpleasant but in a disarming way. Suddenly you realize this was high-drama and that you were about to cry; where did your Saturday afternoon comedy go?

I think that most people who opt for English majors started reading very young and by the time that they get to dealing with it academically have a lot of experience at when the style deviated and went gimmicky possibly because the writer grew tired of the subject; modern writers get all unresolved about dealing with "their" plot and more often than not their editors really don't care about that as long as it sells before the readers find out. Far worse are the editors who don't even notice that Nothing Happened!

Anyone who finds themselves writing because for some reason there was a irrepressible urgency that they just had to, discovers for themself that they have to be very careful whose style they read, at any particular point in their own writing agenda lest it get colored with the established writer or, just some dodo, and you find yourself actually repeating some clever usage out of their context.  You don't wake up until some teacher, or classmate during"those" workshops, or an actual reviewer says what you wrote was "derivative".


I noticed, when reading the very last Norman Mailer, he has a very masculine syntax that drops out anything extraneous but which none of the rest of us could get away with for the simple reason we have not written as much as he has to have the experience that this will do quite well with no frills. He saves that for those nasty shocks he can throw at you because you wanted to see but didn't think he would dare!  This simplicity of English made up of short words really surprised me. It is as he would talk to you.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 12, 2007, 05:30:09 PM
desdemona, re:#295

I just dropped off something in Movies that Sundance is having Mary,Queen of Scots, on at 8:30p.m. three hours from now! This is the version with  Glenda Jackson as Elizabeth in the most riley manner we could imagine;which puts Vanessa Redgrave's character at a great loss.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 12, 2007, 05:38:38 PM
nytempsperdu,re:#296

"I even spotted a photo or 2 of Kent State, not to become famous until 1970, but oh,..."

By peculiar coincidence, while having to get rid of some of my backlog e-mail gumming up the works, I discovered a lot of jottings done over six months ago re: Kent State, I think because there was either a blog at nytimes or Dick Cavett brought it up. It seems, when he used to do his shows, that he interviewed I.F. Stone, the journalist, and the only one who really dug into investigating what really happened. I went for the archives and stuck it into e-mails to myself or a friend who has left the country; then completely forgot over the last six months that I had. I guess that I thought that I'd bump into them in the course of perusing the mess I've made on my computer; but there they were, I probably got to them just before the big erasure.  Haven't looked very closely at them as yet but at least I put them under one heading last night. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 13, 2007, 12:27:22 PM
desdemona, re:#295

I just dropped off something in Movies that Sundance is having Mary,Queen of Scots, on at 8:30p.m. three hours from now! This is the version with  Glenda Jackson as Elizabeth in the most riley manner we could imagine;which puts Vanessa Redgrave's character at a great loss.

I finally managed to watch that entire movie last night after several abortive attempts.  It was okay, I guess, although, as is usually the case, not very historically accurate in some respects.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 13, 2007, 03:30:28 PM
des,

I didn't get a chance to see it until the arrival of Mary,very much pregnant,at Hermitage Castle, in the Borderlands (where my great-grand-father was born), because I was wrestling with a pig roast!

But, I was there for the execution and said to the cat, "that doesn't look right... In the 'living room'?". I'm sure that I've seen this done before or, maybe it was one of the wives of Henry VIII in a courtyard or a roof area, and I kept watching closely with all these people standing that close in that scene, there would have been a lot of extraneous blood,making for a most unrealistic scene in this film even if she did "send to France for a swordsman".  That is a line that they generally throw into the dialogue. 

You'll have to excuse me, i've been talking to Law120b this morning about David Mamet, and by now I am thinking about movies as if they were all Curb Your Enthusiasm, because Mamet has that same little nudgy thing in common with Larry David.

I mean, it has me considering the opening scene at Chateau Cherceneaux with Vanessa frollicking about  as she crosses the former moat and then
gliding along barefoot on the top of the wall,so that I'm beginning to think this reminds me of all those shampoo and deodorant ads on tv during this era when the movie was made; and scenes like this, Vanessa,you should be ashamed of yourself, have made millions of American women very put out by the lack of romance having to do with the morning after....

Maybe, I can possibly see this again since it was on Sundance? I wasn't thinking about the timing while supposing the pork rib roast would do that all by itself.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on December 13, 2007, 07:07:35 PM
madupont,
It looks like Mary, Queen of Scots will show again at the following times (I'm in CT, so double-check your local listings, time-wise) -

Thursday December 20 at 7:30AM
Thursday December 20 at 4:30PM
Tuesday December 25 at 1:45PM

Plan your meals accordingly.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 14, 2007, 11:17:45 AM
Maddie, I swear sometimes you get me so tickled.  I guess wrestling a pork roast is something one must plan carefully according to what absorbing movie may be coming on TV, etc.  As to that opening scene, you are right - it was kinda like one of those old Massingil commercials.   :D


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on December 15, 2007, 04:43:34 PM
nytempsperdu,
I can only speak for myself and my strange aversion to dialect, but listening to Everything is Illuminated may be the way to go.  All depends on your circumstances; if you have a long commute, or listen at the gym or something, it's definitely easier than carrying around a book, even if it's not a big fat epic.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on December 17, 2007, 01:45:26 PM
Desdemona,
In my travels, I ran across this page from UPenn - they have a few works about Richard III online.  Can be killer on the eyes, but they have More's book (which starts "I am loathe to recall and abhor to write..." or something close to that) and one or two others from that time.  While they're a difficult read, between the Old English and the monitor (not my favorite way to read), they're pretty interesting.

http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/AdvancedSearch.cfm 

Apparently the search doesn't hold when I copy the URL address.  So here's a link to the More book:
http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=more_richIII&PagePosition=3

You can also, on the search page, enter Richard III as a keyword and get about 8 selections. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 17, 2007, 01:49:35 PM
Wow!  COOL, harrie.  I've heard a description of More's work and that's it.  I am definitely going to do some reading at that website.  Let's discuss.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on December 17, 2007, 07:23:32 PM
Got my Richard III today - I'm reading it right now.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on December 22, 2007, 07:02:42 AM
Are we going to read 1968?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on December 22, 2007, 07:04:32 AM
or RICHARD III?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 28, 2007, 12:12:59 AM
nytempsperdu,

No local copy of book available in book stores that Random House directs us to rather than buying direct. Once again I have the decision whether to wait the length of time for an order to be delivered from Random House which so far does not reply to e-mail that I sent inquiring; or do I buy an unopened audio  version that a local second-hand book shop would like to have taken off their hands?

I did, however, while getting rid of excess e-mail blog, notice where I'd put the Kent State notes that have to do with Dick Cavett mentioning an intervew from the past.

The Killings at Kent State: How Murder Went Unpunished, I. F. Stone. New York: New York Review Book, 1970.

This paperback reprinted three essays that Stone wrote for The New York Review of Books in which he denounced the early cover-up.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CORRECTION TO 34.May 2nd,2007 2:09 pm

Mr. Caputo was not arriving from the East Coast. He was sent from Chicago.

I was unable to locate a review in the archives of nytimes for the Phil Caputo book.
13 Seconds: A Look Back at the Kent State Shootings.
Kent State University Press. ISBN 0-87338-278-1. Caputo, Philip. (2005).

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=41 25879

“There was a significant national response to the shootings: hundreds of universities, colleges, high schools, and even middle schools closed throughout the United States due to a student strike of eight million students, and the event further divided the country along political lines.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

Sorry to say, to whomever mentioned they didn’t think “minor bayonet injury” was caused that day, here is the research reported at the wikipedia source: “The Kent State incident forced the National Guard to re-examine its methods of crowd control. The only instruments the Guardsmen had that day to dispel demonstrators were bayonets, CS gas grenades, and .30-06 ball ammunition.”

http://members.aol.com/nrbooks/bibliog.htm

(This was located in the archive of The New York Times, if you enter the title of Caputo’s book given at top.)

— Posted by madupont

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"...examples of the kind of fears and rumors to which the Guardsmen were subjected. "Some," the Knight newspaper reported, "said they feared they would be activated and sent to Vietnam if they talked about what happened."

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/10744

Volume 15, Number 10 · December 3, 1970

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This excerpt from a blog  was corrected in the above entry about journalist Caputo coming not from the East Coast but from Chicago. In writing to a friend living in Canada, I went on to describe that earlier in the morning on the service that I use for my computer, there had been a previous blog in which:" I found them there discussing  something that they've now "colored" by current events,..."

34.
May 2nd,
2007
2:09 pm
To mhuges

I was about to answer  but I’m glad you said it for me. This morning,the first thing I ran into as I went on line was a survey begun yesterday apparently on this same subject, so I read dozens of posts similar to or
quite frankly those of lesser mortals who gratuitously spin concoctions figuring they are doing a service to their country and/or their president, or the just outright jerks who scream inanities,absurdities,and derogatory bad taste in language just short of obscenities, as “words to live by”.

There was one complete composition (from what looks like an expert of years in the forums, in defense of the party to end all wars by keeping them coming in continuity)who felt he had to drag Neil Young through the tar and feathers,when he was reminded of the re-release of “Ohio”.

Of course, there are numbers of us who know somebody who was there that day going to school, so when it comes to this concern about sound quality and which words could you or could you not hear clearly, I had to remind those who comment that there was a reporter sent in that day from out here somewhere on the East Coast who was supposed to cover the riots that had been occurring in the town over several days. You see, someone doubted they had sound recorders in those days.

Apparently he got hung up on his route or the traffic and when he phoned in to his publication was told to hurry it up because something was developing on the campus at Kent State. The journalist wrote a book which was reviewed here at The New York Times and I guess it is because I have known someone who was impressionable that I paid close attention after the fact to discover more than I had known immediately after the incident and remember some of the salient facts although not all now that another two years or so have slipped by. I think that I’d better try to track that book before it gets away again. I believe this writer had a web-site,either for the publicity or to call forth others who were observers or participants.

— Posted by madupont

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But, I digress, someone in Dick Cavett asked him several days back whether he might contact him because he recalled how I.F. Stone had been on the Dick Cavett Show; but, for the life of him, he could not remember what Stone had talked about, and I guess he wanted to know if the tapes were available. Little did I know at the time that since yesterday was the 37th.anniversary of the killings at Kent State, what they were more than likely talking about was that! I.F.Stone had done a book through The New York Review, a paperback containing three articles he had published by The New York Review of Books sporadically as he investigated the material evidence, tracking it down as the evidence came forth in the hearings, so I started researching --digging through the archives and at least found one of the three, possibly the first of the I.F. Stone articles-- and guess what, it wasn't that there was a vaguely audible Order to fire upon the students, but there was a guardsman who did come forward and admit that he got nervous and doesn't know why he shot off his gun but that unleashed a barrage of gun shots from the rest of the guardsmen. That was suppressed in the investigation  and has just stayed buried for the last 37 years. There were things that came out,via I.F.Stone quoting Nixon's remarks about the protestors as the Kent State "thugs" and they should all be shot, that for the first time made clear to me the direct line between the Nixon administration and attitude, through Bush(41) until we get to the attitude that another Republican administration has today re: civilians and the Constitution.   So I dropped the information off there at the Cavett column....
                                 X       X       X


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on December 28, 2007, 10:28:02 PM
Shall begin tomorrow, if lucky and I push the right buttons.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 01, 2008, 04:24:13 PM
 I have to suppose that Kurlansky is going to have chapters on each one of the topics he brings up in his intro chapter (I can't tell as the discs are by number).

But after another day to think about it, this came to mind:Hillary Rodham attracted national attention in 1969 when she delivered a controversial address as the first student to speak at commencement exercises for Wellesley College.

I've found such interesting things about her since, that go profoundly against the record as claimed by the people who do up the campaign hoopla. So I started taking notes.

Beyond that, people who invented other movement ideas of the time(1968), I had previously taken notes on and what happened to them when I was living in Princeton because there was at the time a number of coincidental factors taking place that might not have been expected. That was more than twenty years after the era that Kurlansky cites but is of interest from the point of few of what can happen later that is really unwarranted.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 02, 2008, 07:21:55 PM
Can somebody answer me--PLEASE----are we going to read 1968 and if so, when?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 02, 2008, 07:52:48 PM
I'd like to know too, Bob, as I had to pick up the Kurlansky on discs since no books were in the area and I assumed we were starting sometime vaguely in this time period.  Or, something read before discussing any of the coverage that he did, which allowed me up to approximately five days from now.

If not, they have a copy of American Prometheus, sitting on the shelf at the cashier, that has to be picked up by tomorrow.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 02, 2008, 08:09:51 PM
American Prometheus is quite good, and I believe the case could be made that is is World History.   I think, though, that it is under consideration in American History.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 02, 2008, 10:09:53 PM
I look forward to reading the beginning of the discussion before I get my copy. I will begin reading 1968 as soon as it arrives, which should be by the weekend. Just got notice that another of Kurlansky's books should be here tomorrow: The Big Oyster: History on the Half-Shell. I am guessing that this will be as interesting a version of history that Cod and Salt were. Kurlansky seems to have a knack for putting together a good read from the things one just takes for granted. When I told my son I was reading Salt, he quipped that it must be a very small book, and was surprised when I told him it was not at all, and very interesting and absorbing. He didn't ask to borrow it when I was done.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on January 03, 2008, 12:21:32 AM
My copy of Kurlansky's 1968 is coming in the mail.  Go ahead without me.  I'll try to read fast.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on January 03, 2008, 10:39:29 AM
Bob -

I'd say it looks like Kurlansky is a definite yes - discussion to commence when?  Say two weeks?


(Even though I'm not reading the book - I am devoted to my pursuit of Yorkist England.)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on January 03, 2008, 06:12:44 PM
Desdemona, are you still reading Richard III or have you moved on?  I'm only about 100 pages in -- schedule's been a little nutty but it's finally easing up some.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 03, 2008, 10:19:37 PM
I've got another for Desdemona.

Jane Boleyn: The True Story of the Infamous Lady Rochford(Hardcover (Cloth))
  by Fox, Julia

Our Price: $26.95
 
In a life of extraordinary drama, Jane Boleyn was catapulted from relative obscurity to the inner circle of King Henry VIII. As powerful men and women around her became victims of Henry's ruthless and absolute power, including her own husband and sister-in-law, Queen Anne Boleyn, Jane's allegiance to the volatile monarchy was sustained and rewarded. But the price for her loyalty would eventually be her undoing and the ruination of her name. For centuries, little beyond rumor and scandal has been associated with "the infamous Lady Rochford." But now historian Julia Fox sets the record straight and restores dignity to this much-maligned figure whose life and reputation were taken from her.
Born to aristocratic parents in the English countryside, young Jane Parker found a suitable match in George Boleyn, brother to Anne, the woman who would eventually be the touchstone of England's greatest political and religious crisis. Once settled in the bustling, spectacular court of Henry VIII as the wife of a nobleman, Jane was privy to the regal festivities of masques and jousts, royal births and funerals, and she played an intimate part in the drama and gossip that swirled around the king's court.
But it was Anne Boleyn's descent from palace to prison that first thrust Jane into the spotlight. Impatient with Anne's inability to produce a male heir, King Henry accused the queen of treason and adultery with a multitude of men, including her own brother, George. Jane was among those interrogated in the scandal, and following two swift strokes from the executioner's blade, she lost her husband and her sister-in-law, her inheritance and her place in court society.
Now the thirty-year-oldwidow of a traitor, Jane had to ensure her survival and protect her own interests by securing land and income. With sheer determination, she navigated her way back into royal favor by becoming lady-in-waiting to Henry's three subsequent brides, Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves, and Catherine Howard. At last Jane's future seemed secure-until an unwitting misstep involving the sexual intrigues of young Queen Catherine destroyed the life and reputation Jane worked so hard to rebuild.
Drawing upon her own deep knowledge and years of original research, Julia Fox brings us into the inner sanctum of court life, laced with intrigue and encumbered by disgrace. Through the eyes and ears of Jane Boleyn, we witness the myriad players of the stormy Tudor period. Jane emerges as a courageous spirit, a modern woman forced by circumstances to fend for herself in a privileged but vicious world. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
Product Details
 
Publisher : Ballantine Books
Published : 12/26/2007
Format : Hardcover (Cloth) , pages 379
ISBN-10 : 0345485416
ISBN-13 : 9780345485410
 
 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 04, 2008, 12:11:58 PM
Weezo,re:#325

There is some interesting material on Niels Bohr,in American Prometheus, as he was Oppenheimer's mentor; which I found on the page just before the first set of photographs in the Vintage paperback(since I know you prefer to collect paperbacks).  I think you'd like the insights into the politics of the period. I found this as the epigram for Chapter 34 "It Looks Pretty Bad, Doesn't It"; from Franz Kafka,The Trial:

Someone must have traduced Joseph K., for without having done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on January 04, 2008, 02:37:34 PM
Desdemona, are you still reading Richard III or have you moved on?  I'm only about 100 pages in -- schedule's been a little nutty but it's finally easing up some.

I got about half-way through it and decided to see how you're coming along.  I tend to read several books at once, so no, I haven't abandoned the project.

The book presumes a pretty thorough knowledge of the period, IMO.  Very interesting, though.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on January 08, 2008, 12:42:49 PM
1968, the Kurlansky book is totally facinating.  Right from the first sentence.  The book came in the mail yesterday afternoon and I couldn't start it until this morning, but since then I have had a hard time in putting it down.  I'm reading the Random House Trade Paperback, 2005 (Kurlansky's copyright is 2004).  On the back cover it mentions a "notes for discussion" so I guess groups are discussing it.  I hope we do.

As usual, Kurlansky crams 1968 facts and peripheral history onto every page.  A glut of information.  I have been, sometimes, reading back over a page before continuing.

In the forward, Kurlansky readily admits that he is "subjective" about 1968, although he says he's trying mightily to be "fair."


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 08, 2008, 03:33:52 PM
I noticed that too, and I suggest that his "subjective" is inclined slightly rightward. I deduce that by his rather large concentration on Soviet bloc history; the  little events that keep adding up.

J.Hoberman, film critic for the Village Voice,"Given that the ’60s remains the most maligned and oversold decade of the American century...(although he says this in a review for Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, I think that I should take it from there, about people's mistaken perceptions of what were the motivating forces that were apparent by 1968).

I was unprepared for how much emphasis Kurlansky brought to the :Thaw in the communist bloc. Not that I had forgotten about it but I paid far more attention at the time to the racial factors that continually were emphasized as news-items. I believe now that while  people were willing to have their taxes go to fighting communism in southeast Asia, they were probably not as concerned about the economic hardships suffered by the post-war generation in Europe's Soviet bloc that were protesting those deprivations.
 
One of the things that stood out in Kurlansky's narration was some of his comments on how party higher-ups chose their luxury model cars,trading them off for newer models by having a buyer lined up to take the car off their hands. On hearing this, I recalled how Hans Boll had also talked about this  attitude in Germany and the retaliation that developed against it with groups of  unrelated in any other way to each other than the grousing about these corporate characters who dressed well, drove well, ate well and did not have time on their hands as the result of unemployment. Now, I suddenly remember that the Lives of Others, a film from East Germany, had these same management and leadership types who joked with each other about their good deals on a car, enjoyed the sport of making lower echelon workers up tight, took liberties with females whose lives they had been observing and eavesdropping upon as organized within the Stasi.  It was an interesting reflection of life in America being copied by a planned economy.
 
Then, suddenly Kurlansky changes the emphasis to a youth like that of the West whom you can not quite be sure if they are the Eastern bloc version of "hippies" or are they actually imitating the behaviour of the previous Beat generation crossing America from one coast to the other in that same age of the car on the road.
 
Which is why my friend Dee  phoned to ask if I wanted to go to the Democratic Convention in Chicago. It hadn't occurred to me but, no, I wasn't going, I had an eight year old son at home who would have just begun a new school year.
 
Of course, Kurlansky has also used the comparison youth generations to introduce Allen Ginsberg who will be attending the Convention in Chicago following his deportation  by European authorities after he was elected "King of the May" by the younger generation for the traditional May Day celebrations taking place throughout the communist bloc four months earlier.
 
Ginsberg continued with his calling following the riots and the beatings and the arrests and the trial of the Chicago Seven where he sat in his approximation of lotus position singing mantras while accompanying himself with cymbals.  I had not recalled immediately that what he sang was Hare, Hare, Hare Krishna, because he had met a guru of that "persuasion". He continued  to do so by making the circuit of schools around the Midwest who were willing to pay to see him and hear him  do a repeat performance of what he had done in Chicago.  I still did not go to see him as he had a sold out house where ever he did his routine. He was charging an honorarium of $1,000 at each college literature department  could arrange to come up with a multiple sponsorship where he appeared under their auspices. At Marquette University things went well until after he and Peter had opened with their chanting and the poems commenced to be read including language the Jesuits found unsuitable. I would have thought by now everyone was familiar with what was in the poems, but you can never put it past Allen to make his work-load easier by staging an event that all will remember because he walked out with Orlovsky in tow, they had seen him, that was that, and away he went to the next institution of higher learning.
 
When Kenneth Rexroth heard about this, there was a little niggling envy that he did not himself have an offer of that kind of honorarium. Considering that he was the poet who had arranged Allen's first California reading of Howl,  in San Francisco and supported him during the censorship trial although Allen had never really had anything to do with the San Francisco Renaissance poets , nor did he have the supportive contacts of the people whom Rexroth knew in San Francisco society who read his journalism and supported the arts, people like the Folgers (before their daughter was killed when Charlie Manson ordered some of the "family" girls to invade the Polanski house in the Canyon).
 
Allen of course merely enjoyed himself continuing his policy of singing these odd Indian tunes of devotion;  just as he had driven the evil spirits away by dancing on Joe McCarthy's grave which had already put him on the persona non grata list with Rexroth who was no big fan of the Senator either.
 
At this point,Kenneth just asked me to call W.H. Auden's secretary to arrange an appointment for the two old friends to get together down in Chicago.  I have a hunch they went to the Berghoff, if not for Rahm Schnitzel then perhaps Schlachtplatte and beer.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 08, 2008, 08:56:21 PM
Kurlansky says in the introduction, that he was born in 1948, three years after I was born. I was just enough ahead of Kurlansky's "generation" to be married and raising babies during 1968 instead of being in college and having flower power. I find it interesting to see how the civil rights movement was turned into something a bit else. Don't remember being completely aware of MLK during those years. He was just someone on the news.





Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 09, 2008, 01:33:08 AM
It's still turning, as far as I can tell.

Very interesting book, although I'm hearing it read to me rather than reading it myself; I take notes but there is so much in any one chapter , or, any one disc, that it is a little mind blowing actually remembering how to connect all this together. I know it is, but I'm getting disparate pieces of information at this point and saying to myself,"...that's good...and?"

But I do have a number of things to look up for myself, so maybe I will get the context of "...and?"

One of the things that I loved and never thought "he" would be the guy to say it, was at the beginning of Part II. where William Burroughs says,
"Who owns the media, has the power (or maybe he said,"controls everything"?)..." I'll have to listen again, which is the downside of not having the book available and taking notes instead when there is so very much information coming at you.

But, I've got news for Bill.  Bush has been there, and done that.

WEEZO. 1948 is as nothing compared to Abbie Hoffman, who went around saying that he was born in 1960.  I think that he meant it "philosophically"(as in "political philosophy"),his own private little joke with himself about himself.  He was born about 1937, according to this source, and went through an awakening as to what it would take to turn things around.

I am now coming around to the understanding that before I thought Johnson was all right, which was largely a result of being in the American History forum, I can more than vaguely remember a time when he made a very bad impression on me and I could even agree with the whomever said that Jack Kennedy was just a phony liberal. Well,sure but what did that make former Vice President Johnson when he became President?  It was like your comment,"...see how the civil rights movement was turned into something a bit else." My question is, a bit else than what? The connection to Johnson is there must have been some reason that a civil rights movement was necessary (gosh, I need some new form of punctuation to express what I am thinking. Not an exclamation point because people often read that wrong as a negative, when of course it is a negative but it should be more subtle and yet not a question mark.   If I could just turn it over on its side....
I think that
the best explanation was offered when I guess it was the segment about Tom Haydn being out in California and pondering was all that real when he was in the South? (no sideways, there) but then comes the explanation about how they went two by two when knocking on doors because the feeling was when you see a white man standing on your doorstep that you just don't trust a white man. Two may really be trouble but one is kind of sneaky, and you are not perplexed at all by two just standing there nonchalantly knocking to see if you will answer. WELL, Not exactly "nonchalant". Any white boy going South for the first time is bound to be a bit tentative.   Most of all, if you are not wanted there, you've got somebody with you, just in case.  Which just goes to prove, the races are much alike. Worried.

To "do" this book... Sorry, I have to refer to it that way because I can't say,to read this book, is to never be able to think of Hubert Humphrey in the same way again. Man, that Kurlansky has sure destroyed my illusions of who were the good guys, perhaps because we were so naive at that age and thought that politicians were " good " or "bad"?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 09, 2008, 07:22:38 AM
Maddie,

My point about the year 1948 was that your date of birth is significant for whether or now you became involved in the various movements going on in the sixties. I remember seeing on the news that fire hoses were used to break up demonstrations that were otherwise peaceful, and thinking how the news contrasted with what we were learning in government studies and the constitution at that time.

I was tucked away in a Northern city where civil rights were not, in my opinion at the time, in any kind of jeopardy. I have since met a woman who grew up in the same city, in a different neighborhood and culture, who saw the city as very confining to blacks. Jobs were hard to find, and available to blacks only in certain sectors. My friend did not even finish high school because she felt it too confining and irrelevant to her life. She taught me that what I saw and remember may not be the whole story for everyone. I was not much of one to cross the tracks or walk in neighborhoods that were said to be dangerous.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 09, 2008, 03:30:02 PM
I was born in that neighborhood, in another Northern City. So, I was living there in the beginning of the 1960s until about 1963, just kitty-corner from where my father had  to take me,  as a small child, along with him when he did hospital rounds to see his patients there in the ghetto. There is no residential housing there at present or hasn't been for some time.

I felt perfectly at home there, for reasons I may mention later, so it wasn't odd for me to line up at the university to hear Stokely Carmichael. In appearance, he was very much in the tradition of Andrew Young who had been with Martin Luther King at the time of his assassination, and then was also US ambassador to the United Nations, so that by the time of 1979 when I was going through hell and high water into 1980-81ish, Andrew had this to say,
--During the 1980 presidential race there was some controversy about a statement made by Young, according to the New York Times edition of Oct. 16, 1980, page B-6:

"Speaking to a crowd made up almost entirely of whites, Mr. Reagan said, 'I believe in state's rights. I believe in people doing as much as they can at the private level.' The Republican Presidential nominee added that, if elected, he would re-order priorities and 'restore to states and local governments the power that properly belongs to them.'

Commenting on the remark at The Ohio State University, Young said, "If he had gone to Biloxi, and talked about state's rights, if he had gone to New Orleans, or Birmingham, I would not have gotten upset. But when you go to Philadelphia, Mississippi where James Chaney, Andy Goodman, and Michael Schwerner were killed--murdered--by the sheriff and the deputy sheriff and a government posse protecting state's rights, and you go down there and start talking about state's rights, that looks like a code word to me that it's going to be all right to kill niggers when he's President."

These remarks were denounced by the Reagan campaign and repudiated by the Carter campaign."

I had  been born at another hospital where my Dad was on-staff, part of the Catholic Diocese for St.Benedict the Moor, Mission to the Negro, which sprang up with the arrival of the migration North, known as the Great Migration back at the time following the other big flood on the Mississippi, particularly down around Alabama  when Hoover was possibly in charge of the army corps of engineers while he was secretary of agriculture.  I was used to being with the nuns in the kitchen or the monks who did the maintenance, while my father made rounds or possibly even while he was in surgery.

Back to the Andrew Young influence on the events of the 1960s,as well as the 1980s , and now.  At one time he looked a lot like an African-American version of Gore Vidal; and just as outspoken, he had a checkered reputation. "In 2004 Young briefly considered running for U.S. Senate after the incumbent, Zell Miller, announced his retirement, but decided not to re-enter public life."

Following that Republican Convention, I recall our German-speaking forum friends at nytimes, having seen the tv programing, asked,"Who was that madman,Zell Miller ?".

Likewise, here's a quote from Andrew,"In an interview in 2007, Young commented that Barack Obama was too young to be president, saying: “I want Barack Obama to be president,” Young said, pausing for effect, “in 2016.” Also adding about Bill Clinton, "Bill is every bit as black as Barack. He’s probably gone with more black women than Barack"

In the interim around 1968, this was the neighborhood where you could count on the support of the churches like the one attached to the first hospital that I mentioned(nuns were inevitably the administrators and first nursing staff of hospitals and, where they run a hospital, they need a church, and a priest to say mass, and a cemetery,and a school,etc.) when in the 1960s anti-Vietnam rallies brought spokesmen like the Fathers Berrigan, who were the Berrigan brothers, and also Angela Davis.

My brother also lived within walking distance of this neighborhood when he bought property from a former business partner of his who was getting out of the ghetto for fear of losing inventory during  the riot era; he remained there until sometime about late 2003 or early 2004 after which he decided to go to Memphis and was sorely disappointed that the music was no longer the same so, he went on to Nashville where he died about two years and three months ago.




Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 09, 2008, 06:22:12 PM
Black churches were, and still are, the pillar on which many black communities rest. A couple of months ago, our next door neighbor died and we went to the funeral. On the outside, the church was not much to look at, but when you walked inside, it was richly furnished. It was instantly apparent that the people there love their church and support it. The preacher who talked about the ties of family and the virtues of a long life, was also a singer, and sometimes would lapse into song as he spoke. He then did the hymn Rubin had asked for, "His Eye is on the Sparrow", which is one of my favorites, and I've never heard it sung better.







Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on January 09, 2008, 09:37:57 PM
Approaching halfway in 1968 (along about early June, I guess you could say) and am also gripped.  Am so glad to learn about E. Eur., Cuba and the China of the Cultural Revolution...what times, what times... 

I thought I was going to be able to read The White Album along with Kurlansky's book, but that's not exactly working, so will make it a follow-up instead.

I find nothing at all to suggest that Kurlansky's leanings are to the right.  Indeed, his remark that he makes no pretense of being objective led me to believe that his leanings in whichever direction would be more pronounced. 

I do think the ten years he put into the book show. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 10, 2008, 12:46:13 AM
I'd be interested on your take of the Cultural Revolution.  I have to decide after tomorrow whether I should but, I'll probably go back to Chinese classes.   It seems to be convenient enough.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 10, 2008, 07:14:54 AM
Last night I was reading about March of 1968, and emergence of the student protests in communist bloc countries. While the students were in a way similar to the "hippies" in the US, in which the students were primarily the sons/daughters of those who had done well in life and could provide the best for their children. In college, these children found the lack of freedom in thought to be a handicap. One such student described in the book expected his parents to be proud of his involvement in "revolution for freedom" as he understood his parents had strived for, only to be punished by his parents for being a part of "revolution" when the culture had passed to the point where revolution was now a bad thing to do.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on January 10, 2008, 11:19:27 AM
I'm on page 125, hovering around March, 1968.  Johnson has made his "I will not . . ." speech.  MLK is soon to be dead and young people all over the world are in rebellion and confrontation with authority is getting increasingly violent.  The "eye" of television is everywhere/anywhere a group large enough to fill a TV screen can devise a clever way to protest.

Frankly, there is so much information I am just overwhelmed with it.  In 1968 I lived in Sheridan, Wyoming.  Third largest city with some 12,000 souls. No TV.  No Indians after dark.  Lots of Slavs and Poles.  More bars than churches.  The local Gopher Hole Gazette didn't print much national news.  Most of the particulars Kurlansky illuminates is news to me although I am aware of the "history" of the era.

I'm hoping to contribute, but not right now.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 11, 2008, 12:04:25 AM
DON'T feel bad about it, guess what caught up with me?

I thought because I knew people in 1968/1969 who being organized, from California where everybody who is anybody is organized,went off to help the Cubans bring in the sugar cane harvest(which is a dangerous thing to do), so here I am in 2008, forty years later, thinking what is it Kurlansky means by "microfaction" in the Cuban Revolution sell-outs to Russia...?

I make a note to look it up; and, I discover Fabio Grobart, who was born in Bialystok, Poland August 30, 1905; his birth name was Abraham Grobart aka Abraham Simjovitch. Apparently following orders of the Comintern, during the early 1920s and became a founding member of the Cuban Communist Party. OR After in 1922 entering the Communist Youth(ful)[sic] League in Poland, and additional communist activities he may have been sentenced to death and this could obliged him to leave Poland to settle in Cuba.

And, that's just the start of it.  It's almost as good as that movie, Our Man in Havana; but, it's all dead serious.     elportenito would love some of this tale of political intrigue which goes on and on and discovered merely because of six words in Kurlansky's text being read for a recording disc.

Other than that I tapped in on Norman Mailer's famous writings during the era, for the periodicals but it is going to have to wait while I plow along. I'm making notes as I go, or stashing links to research later.

I sailed along past The Living Theatre, with Julian Beck and Judith Malina
who were probably a very incompatible couple except in terms of theatre and what they believed it should do -- leading to "guerilla theater", recalling when Evergreen Review printed the texts of the plays like The Brig,which they produced. Again, Kenneth Rexroth never batted an eyelash or gave any hint of their peculiarity, they were just people he had known when. It probably would have been considered bad form to be critical of fellow creative artists who were politically advanced.

I think that it is very interesting that Judith Malina (like the poet, Denise Levertov) was the daughter of a rabbi;in Judith's case, an Hasidic rabbi. These women tended to work out their religious vocation creatively. With the one, religion became politics and, politics,religion. (Not in the contemporary American sense either,because for them Christianity had nothing to do with it.  At the moment, I've pretty much had it with where political Christianity has led to -- in just the last decade -- where I've been here to observe the change which I never thought I'd see for a second time in my lifetime).


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 11, 2008, 07:45:42 AM
I am in the section of Kurlanski's book that discusses the Cuban situation. It seems that in the beginning, Castro was a popular and American-supported change from the corrupt Batista government. I've had some limited email contact with Cuban teachers, enough to know that when Kurlanski says that the Castro government, in spite of its massacre of the Batista loyalists, is a very popular government with the ordinary folks in Cuba. I'm not sure I fully understand the cause of "revolution" that would be supported long after the switch from an oligargical form of government to a democratic form. Why do they need to keep the "revolution" alive? Is it to prevent the re-entry of an elite class that will take over again and become an oligarchy?

I am at this point, wondering if communism isn't a necessary interim step between an entrenched and indolent oligarchy with its monarchical trappings, to a true democracy. I am wondering if the US will have to go the communist route in order to wrest power from the entrenched elite and restore/begin a true democracy in this country.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on January 11, 2008, 03:20:50 PM
"I am at this point, wondering if communism isn't a necessary interim step between an entrenched and indolent oligarchy with its monarchical trappings, to a true democracy. I am wondering if the US will have to go the communist route in order to wrest power from the entrenched elite and restore/begin a true democracy in this country."

Keep on wondering. Figuring things out for yourself can be quite rewarding.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: MrUtley3 on January 11, 2008, 04:45:08 PM
Reading a book called "The Zookeeper's Wife".

Very interesting war story set in World War 2, German occupied Warsaw.

Anyone here read it?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 12, 2008, 07:02:13 AM
Quote
I am at this point, wondering if communism isn't a necessary interim step between an entrenched and indolent oligarchy with its monarchical trappings, to a true democracy. I am wondering if the US will have to go the communist route in order to wrest power from the entrenched elite and restore/begin a true democracy in this country.

Weezo, if it didn't work for Russia, why should it work for the US?  Communism creates its own entrenched elite as was the case in the Soviet Union and Red China, making it virtually impossible to wrest power away from central authority short of civil war, or simply ride it out until system collapses under its own weight, an excrutiatingly long 70 years.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 12, 2008, 09:23:38 AM
Dzimas,

It didn't work for Russia IN THE WAY THEY DID IT. Surely there is much to be learned about the role of socialism/sommunism as well as its limits. If it took 70 years and repression for it to come to an end, and if we have in the meantime enjoyed the fruits of capitalism in the same time, and with different but still debilitating repressions, perhaps we need to stop talking about the two poles which have a bitter taste, and find the middle ground were the tastes are blended with sweeteners from the other pole.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on January 12, 2008, 09:33:56 AM
Communism creates its own entrenched elite as was the case in the Soviet Union and Red China, making it virtually impossible to wrest power away from central authority short of civil war,....

This sounds more melodramatic than I intend, but there are some people who feel we aren't too far removed from the "impossible to wrest power away" part, particularly in light of Diebold's questionable reputation and the attendant (but basically unproveable) suspicions of voter fraud.  Maybe it's the crowd with which I hang, or the state with the exceptionally crappy economy in which I live, but the number of angry, frustrated malcontents seems to be growing, at least in my neighborhood.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 12, 2008, 10:39:56 AM
Harrie, the economy state by state is everywhere less than it was, Wow! when did that happen? And the angry malcontents are on the road where we all live, shopping alongside us, walking through our yards from time to time to take it out on somebody. Here's one now at the door, trying to relate....


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on January 12, 2008, 11:55:30 AM
Harrie, I am another one you can count as being a believer that it's too late to "wrest our Democracy" back from the 1% at the top that control it now.  I will be dead and unknowing (no looking down from Heaven for me, I'm afraid) but the rest of you will HAVE to deal with it, or learn to live with it.

Be assured, "they" will never be so brazen that the millions who live on $50K-$100K will look up and notice--voters that can be herded by fear: health care, immigration, gays, abortion, religion--so the covering shell, the Republican Party, can always depend on enough support to keep comprimise and social good of the nation from happening, except in tiny steps that don't really help.  And the constant background drum beat, "It's really your own fault, you know," that many now believe.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 12, 2008, 11:57:47 AM
Weezo, communism was not initially intended as a state-run institution, but rather as a set of semi-autonomous collectives.  I think communism can and does work at the small scale, in terms of co-operatives, and may work at a small state level, but as a union of soviet socialist republics it was a dismal failure.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 12, 2008, 12:00:17 PM
Conceptually, I think the US works pretty well with a balance between the federal and state levels.  While there is a wealthy elite, a very large number of Americans enjoy a very high standard of living and are able to have a direct say in their local and state governments.  I think there is a tendency to look at the US at the macro-level, when in reality what makes the US work is at the micro-level.  What was the old saying, think globally, act locally?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 12, 2008, 12:10:07 PM
Dzimas,

I tend to agree with you. Communism seems to work in Sweden (or is it Norway) and in Cuba. If there is poverty and shortages, it is shared by all, as are the profits when times are good. The building of a superclass of people who are above the law and live largely on ill-gotten gains seems to be a hold over from feudal and monarchical systems, which democracy seems not to dismantle as well as it should.

My two favorite types of companies are consumer owned and labor owned businesses. We are part of a consumer-owned electric coop, and believe me, we get much better and more responsive service from our electric company than do those living on the stock-owned electric utility. Ayn Rand took a poke at worker-owned business in her Atlas Shrugged book. Sadly, she was so scandalized by the notion of "common people" being able to direct their own affairs, that her scenarios are mostly laughable.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 12, 2008, 12:20:04 PM
Dzimas,

I tend to agree with you. Communism seems to work in Sweden (or is it Norway) and in Cuba. If there is poverty and shortages, it is shared by all, as are the profits when times are good. The building of a superclass of people who are above the law and live largely on ill-gotten gains seems to be a hold over from feudal and monarchical systems, which democracy seems not to dismantle as well as it should.

My two favorite types of companies are consumer owned and labor owned businesses. We are part of a consumer-owned electric coop, and believe me, we get much better and more responsive service from our electric company than do those living on the stock-owned electric utility. Ayn Rand took a poke at worker-owned business in her Atlas Shrugged book. Sadly, she was so scandalized by the notion of "common people" being able to direct their own affairs, that her scenarios are mostly laughable.



Weezo, you are mixing communism with socialism.  Sweden and Norway are socialist states which have a very strong private sector that pays considerable taxes to maintain its impressive array of social services.  In a communist state all production would be state controlled, as is the case in Cuba, where wealth (what's left of it anyway) would be spread relatively evenly throughout society, except for those who form the political elite.  Read Orwell's Animal Farm.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 12, 2008, 08:13:20 PM
Yes, I do tend to put communism and socialism in the same box. Yes, I've read (and taught) Animal Farm, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I swallow it hook, line, and sinker. I recognize that Animal Farm is similar to Atlas Shrugged in many ways. Both assert that because in practice, the ownership of capital by the non-elite has problems achieving it's perfection, that it should be chucked out the window. Yet, we continue to put up with the "imperfections" of capitalism and justify the greed and selfishness that capitalism inspires as "natural" to the state of man.

I always amazes me when I hear a proponant of capitalism trying to justify the "right" of the elite to lord it over those born in poverty who will never have the opportunity to be in the other shoe. Communism and Socialism, at least at the inception, put a whole new group of people into the shoes of the "elite".  I suspect that the point of the Founding Fathers who advocated the need for revolution on a periodic basis, was to help insure that the ranks of the "elites" would be wiped clean and re-established with each revolution.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 12, 2008, 08:29:22 PM
Part of what makes capitalism great is not that the elite have the right "to lord it over those born in poverty who will never have the opportunity to be in the other shoe."  But rather that anyone in this system can make it.  It doesn't matter if you are born into poverty or wealth.  I was educated in one of those inner city schools that we hear such terrible things about.  For school lunch, we were not allowed to eat jelly and peanut butter on the same slice of bread because my parents couldn't affort that kind of waste.  My father was a grave-digger who didn't even complete eighth grade, yet my son is getting a doctorate from an ivy league and my daughter just got her bachelor's from one of the best conservatories in the world.  In America, anyone can make it...anyone who is willing to work hard and get the best education they can get, that is.   

If you admire socialism and communism, I would suggest that you talk to some of the immigrants who have made America their home and ask them why they have chosen to make their lives here. 



Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 12, 2008, 08:57:36 PM
Laurie,

I daresay that someone who came from the peasant class in Russia and became a good communist and was able to educate their children and life, if not as grandly as the Russian royalty once did, they are better off than their serf grandparents.

Most immigrants I've talked to in recent years have told me that they came to America to get "filthy rich" and not to worry about who they deprived in doing so. Back when I was a child, there were people who came here to avoid "oppression" under new orders, but I don't hear that reason given by modern immigrants. Opportunity, yes, that is why they come. But while we were extolling our "Opportunities" for white immigrant to come and make their splash, we were at the same time barring from the door of "Opportunities" Americans born here who ancesters came as slaves.

Would you say that George Bush came by his wealth from "hard work" on either his part or that of his father? Think of those who "work hard" picking the fruits and vegetables we all eat every day. What is the reward for their "hard work"?

In truth, immigrants made this country through their "hard work" by which they enabled their children to become educated and live lives of relative ease, free from "hard work". The American dream is more about not having to "work hard" than about the virtue that comes from oneself doing the "hard work".


 



Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 12, 2008, 09:19:57 PM
That reminds me of what I heard in my childhood,"He says, You can eat butter mit brod, or jam with your bread, but not both. There have to be sacrifices for the Fatherland".

Kurlansky also takes up that by 1968 that the Anti-Jewish Poles used the code-word,"Zionists" to indentify Jews who were non-practicing in religious matters and considered themselves Poles.  The Poles did not.

So, if Fabio Grobart, born in Poland as Abraham Grobart (aka Abraham Simjovitch),eventually became a founding member of the Cuban Communist Party,  in 1922 entering the Communist Youth League in Poland, does this speak more badly of the post-Revolutionary period in the Russia which apparently for more that forty-six years, actually much more, has been identifying Jews for deportation or,"talk to some of the immigrants who have made America their home and ask them why they have chosen to make their lives here" (because by 1968's era, they can say but may not say it just the same that they are identifying Jews in Poland for Russian reasons. Russian approval?) or is it worse in Cuba where "in spite of its massacre of the Batista loyalists"..."If there is poverty and shortages, it is shared by all, as are the profits when times are good."

Well, then, let us praise, Rudi Dutschke.

Did anyone read this section of Kurlansky?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 12, 2008, 09:33:42 PM
Quote
Part of what makes capitalism great is not that the elite have the right "to lord it over those born in poverty who will never have the opportunity to be in the other shoe."  But rather that anyone in this system can make it

I quite agree.

And as to Bush, if you go back far enough you'll find those hard working Americans who laid the ground-work for the Bush fortune. What do we expect: that people of wealth are going to give it all away as being somehow Un-American? The American dream is to "make it"--to become one of them rather than stay as "one of us." American are forever harping against wealth, but striving for it just the same. Who was it, Dorothy Parker?, who said: "Ive been rich and I've been poor. Rich is better."

I've never heard of a wealthy communist country. I've never heard of a communist nation where the guy in the street has an opportunity to better himself. I've never heard of a communist nation where the people are free. I have heard of communist nations where people are equal---and they're all poor,  their equality precludes them from being better than their peers--that's equality--you have no right to be different.

In our system we have a right to be different.We are free. We are not equal. What we have is equality of OPPORTUNITY--the OPPORUTINITY to be better than the next guy if we can.

Get rid of the rich and you run the peril of destroying the nation we are. They are as necessary as anybody else. What we should strive for is getting rid of poverty, not wealth.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 12, 2008, 09:45:00 PM
Richard Pipes wrote a small book entitled COMMUNISM, in which he points out that Marxism violates the very first principles of the scientific method--namely open-mindedness and a willingness to adjust to new evidence. It is a rigid doctrine dismissive of different views. It wishes not to refute but to destroy.  Cuba, the last prime living example of Marxist life on this planet, survives in a primitive stone age economy. They're still running around in  1955 American Chevy's. I don't see anyone escaping Florida to go to Cuba...I don't see anyone, anywhere trying to emulate them. I do see them waiting for Casto to die in hopes of a better life after he's gone.

In the 75 years of existence I never heard of an nation voluntarily going Communist and I certainly never heard of any of them being prosperous. Only when China introduced capitalistic practices did it take off. It may remain "Communist," but it is far from being "communist."


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 12, 2008, 09:46:46 PM
By the way, there's a "autobiography"  of sorts of Fidel Castro in the bookstores. I say "of sorts" as it appears to be an extended interview with the author.

http://www.amazon.com/Fidel-Castro-Life-Spoken-Autobiography/dp/1416553282/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200192497&sr=1-1


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 12, 2008, 10:50:22 PM
Bob...I had that Castro in my hands at the B & N just yesterday.  Looked pretty good.  I bought 1968 instead...lured in by the discussion here.

Anne....The experience you seem to have had with immigrants is quite different than mine.  I work with several immigrant women.  We get together once a week to practice speaking English.  It could have to do with the nationalities of the immigrants I work with, but none have expressed that they came here to get rich.  Many have actually given up material possessions, friends and families to come to America.  One example:  A young woman that I am working with was a first grade teacher in Lebanon.  Her teaching credentials are invalid here and so I am helping her to prepare to enter a program at my community college.  She has to do all of her work over.  Her husband had a job in medicine.  His credentials are not acceptable here.  He works for one of our utility companies.  In coming to America, this woman has lost social status and income.  To make things worse, her family has disowned her for her religious beliefs.  But, she expresses to me her faith in America, that even with all these hardships, she and her family have the ability to work and make a good life for themselves. 

A while back, I worked with a woman from Nepal.  Her husband was an engineer and she was a stay-at-home mom.  I remember one time I made a negative remark to her about paying taxes.  She very politely chastised me.    She felt it was the least she could do for the privilege of living in a country where they actually got to own what they earned, where her children could receive an education at a good school without having to bribe anyone (a school that was kept open even when the government changed hands), where she was allowed to attend PTA meetings and people listened to her input before they ascertained her social status.

But, as to immigrants making this country by hard work.  Yes.  And good for them that their children don't have to work as hard as they did.  Isn't that part of the American Dream?  That the child is more successful than the parent? 



Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 13, 2008, 12:03:04 AM
Maddie,

Yes, I was reading about Rudi Dutsche and the French redhead who was trying to foment revolution when de Gaulle had France all sewed up in fine, orderly pin-stripes last night. That is probably the reason I am going down this road in discussion. In 1968 there was a tremendous amount of fear in the US that communism would turn out to be the better method than capitalism. The activists seemed to be hedging their bets, still holding onto the trust fund invested in blue chips from granddaddy, but glad-handing the communist leaders as well. Whichever way the economic axe fell, they were ready!

What intrigues me about these folks is their dedication to the "revolution". For the most part, it was a "revolution" without goals, plans, or even solid leadership. In some ways, it was like a week-long 'hood party that broke up as maturity set in. In other ways, it was a strange grassroots emergence that said business as usual must be examined and continued only if it is "good".

Laurie, I've known only one immigrant family that was similar to those you detailed. They were Cubans who were among the very wealthy and privileged who were chased out by Castro and had to make a living at whatever they could in this country. That family did not express the gladness to be here, but spent a lot of their time complaining that the US was not giving them the recognition and privilege they were accustomed to. The immigrants who expressed as their sole reason for leaving home, to become "filthy rich" in America came from some fellow students at a community college when I was running a tutoring service on campus while taking some computer classes. By contrast, a large group of South Vietnamese folks were settled in the Williamsburg area at the end of the Vietnam war, and they got themselves busy making a living by creating beautiful floral arrangements with silk flowers to sell to the tourists. They, and what I see of the Mexican immigrants that work around here, seem to be most interested in making a living here and getting an education for their children so that the family will prosper down the road.

Bob, I wish I knew more about the establishment of communism and socialism in other countries. I know that in past decade, it was often a product of revolution and overturning the existing elites and replacing them with a new set of elites. I'm not sure if it is appropriate to compare communism and capitalism by determining which countries are considered rich or poor. I know there are many countries which follow capitalism after years of colonialism, and are still as poor and underdeveloped as ever.

China has, over the history of the world, taken its place at the front of the world more than once. Perhaps it will be China who will lead the way to a crossroads between the two economic systems and let the best of each work for its people.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 13, 2008, 01:17:47 AM
I don't think I'd bet the farm on China.  They seem to be intent on tying the noose that will hang em.  Their economy seems to be based on flooding the world with slipshop products...lead-based toys, tainted pet food.  And what is the reason for this?  Twofold....greed and government corruption.  Perhaps the communist ideal looks good on paper, all brothers, all equal, etc, but when it gets down to it, most people are simply not that altruistic. 



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 13, 2008, 03:03:23 AM
Quote
I recognize that Animal Farm is similar to Atlas Shrugged in many ways. Both assert that because in practice, the ownership of capital by the non-elite has problems achieving it's perfection, that it should be chucked out the window.

It must have been a long time since you read these books, since they couldn't be any further apart.  One was about the creation of an ideal communist state, a parable on the formation of the Soviet Union, and the eventual corruption within its leadership.  The other was about how the great m en of capitalism had sought isolation in the Rocky Mountains to weather the storm of a country falling to ruin because of too much government interference, regulation and general laziness in the market place. If you remember the symbol for the new society they imagined was the dollar.  Ayn Rand (Daphne Taggart, if I remember correctly) felt the country would be better served if run by a corporate elite.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: bosox18d on January 13, 2008, 03:34:02 AM
Well Animal Farm is actually readable while Atlas Shrugged is a pretentious load of shite.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 13, 2008, 03:43:17 AM
While the general premise is a "load of shite," there is a lot that can be taken from Atlas Shrugged, as she sums up situations pretty well. 
But, I liked Fountainhead much better.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: bosox18d on January 13, 2008, 03:47:26 AM
The best bio of Castro is one by Robert E. Quirk but at over 900 pages it's long.I read it about ten years ago and it changed some of my thoughts on Cuba and the west.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 13, 2008, 03:54:05 AM
You should check out Oliver Stone's doc on Castro, entitled Commandante,

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NG3YFPXSL._SX220_.jpg)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: bosox18d on January 13, 2008, 03:55:57 AM
Dzimas,I just never got Ayn Rand.Like D.H. Lawrence she's someone that seems cool at a certain point in life but then you realise what frauds they are.I recall Whiskey being a "huge" fan of her. ::)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 13, 2008, 04:08:08 AM
Her books are a chore, that's for sure, more for her ideas than her text, although at one point I quit reading John Gault's speeches in Atlas Shrugged, as they would go on for 30 pages. The Fountainhead was pretty cool, it had a much better flow and more interesting set of characters, but then maybe that is because I am an architect and could identify with someone like Howard Roark.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 13, 2008, 05:29:37 AM
Richard Pipes wrote a small book entitled COMMUNISM, in which he points out that Marxism violates the very first principles of the scientific method--namely open-mindedness and a willingness to adjust to new evidence. It is a rigid doctrine dismissive of different views. It wishes not to refute but to destroy.  Cuba, the last prime living example of Marxist life on this planet, survives in a primitive stone age economy. They're still running around in  1955 American Chevy's. I don't see anyone escaping Florida to go to Cuba...I don't see anyone, anywhere trying to emulate them. I do see them waiting for Casto to die in hopes of a better life after he's gone.

In the 75 years of existence I never heard of an nation voluntarily going Communist and I certainly never heard of any of them being prosperous. Only when China introduced capitalistic practices did it take off. It may remain "Communist," but it is far from being "communist."

I think if there is anywhere in which one can point to successes of communism it is Cuba.  While they may still drive around in '55 Chevies, they have perhaps the best health and education program of any developing country, as well as a federal emergency management agency that makes our FEMA look third world by comparison.  The pharmaceutical industry in Cuba is a boon for Latin American countries, providing low cost effective drugs throughout Central and South America.  Cuba has also fostered the arts and athletics much the way the Soviet Union did, with incredible results, especially when you consider the size of the country.  Unfortunately, Castro has created the "cult of the leader" in Cuba, as was the case in the Soviet Union and Red China, although there was a turn-over in these leaders, which there has yet to be in Cuba.

Castro's influence has never been so great, inspiring Chavez and Morales, as well as drawing closer connections with Brazil, Nicaragua and Argentina.  Brazil is helping to develop Cuba's offshore oil, as new reserves have been found in its territorial waters, wihich have also drawn oil companies from China and Canada.  It is relatively low grade oil, but can be refined, as American oil companies wanted to do, but trade sanctions closed off these opportunities.

The tourism sector in Cuba has also developed rapidly and you can find most of the Cuban products unavailable to Americans, readily available in Europe including Rum, coffee, sugar and their world famous cigars.  So, I imagine there are a few fat cats riding around Cuba in impressive cars.

Most importantly, it must be remembered that Castro would have never ascended so easily to power had not the Batista regime been so thoroughly corrupted, and I doubt he would have stayed in power this long had the US taken a more open view to post-Batista Cuba, rather than adopting its hardline view which has allowed Castro to entrench himself so deeply in Havana.

I say this not because I'm a big fan of Castro, but because you can't dismiss entirely what he has done in Cuba.  I'm not a big fan of Marxism either, but it does have its advantages, as warped as the thinking may be.  I think Marx would role over in his grave if he saw how badly his name was corrupted, as I don't remember him ever favoring such state-run industries, but rather strong unions that would result in union-managed industries.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 13, 2008, 05:36:18 AM
Quote
I've never heard of a wealthy communist country.


China still considers itself communist and is now the second largest economy in the world, with an economic growth rate that is the envy of the world.  All though, I think Chairman Mao would not be too happy how the social programs have been gutted to allow China to become such a dominant economic country.  Most Chinese can no longer afford basic health care, and it was appalling to read about the baby formula scandal a few years back where babies were dying because the formula had absolutely no nutritional value.  That's what happens when you start making too much money too fast.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 13, 2008, 07:21:07 AM
Dzimas,

It is certainly appalling to find out that baby formula is not up to snuff. Can't pinpoint the year, but I recall an instance where the same was happening with US baby formula - it was so lacking in nutritional value that babies in Africa were dying from it. I also remember when the US shipped dangerous birth control to third world countries. The birth control device was the Dalkon Shield made by AH Robins in Richmond. The Dalkon Shield caused a number of deaths in the US and could no longer be marketed here, so the company shipped huge quantities of the known killer to African countries with the expectation that the poverty there was so great that no one would be able to successfully sue the company for the wrongful deaths as was done in the US.

I think that communist regimes (just read last night that Chezchoslavakia was one nation that chose communism rather than having it imposed on their by bloodshed) typically make education an important priority. Does capitalism or communism do a better job of lifting people out of poverty by offering strong educational benefits to the children of the poor? When I read about Chavez in Venezuela, I look at the improvements in education which allow education to all children now instead of a privileged minority as under the capitalist governments of the past. 

Bob, I really don't think that people in Cuba driving fifty year old cars is all that significant. America has adopted a throw-away economy which is extremely wastefu of the environment. One of the hallmarks is the American custom of updating one's car often. Other cultures put the old and still working on a pedestal instead of the new, especially when the new is only new for it's "get one over on the Jones's" effect. Think of the number of people in large cities with good public transportation, who don't even own a car at all. There are also folks living in the hoots and hollars of our rural areas who also get by without a car, although the ubiquitous pick-up, old enough to be an antique and still in decent running condition, is still a vehicle of choice.





Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 13, 2008, 08:37:49 AM
None of the Eastern European countries willingly accepted communism that I know of.  There were a number of staged elections held after the Soviet Union rode through Eastern Europe following the collapse of Nazi Germany, in which communist parties rose to the fore and assumed control of the parliaments.  Hence forward these were known as satellite nations of the Soviet Union.  Other countries, like Lithuania, had their nationality stripped all together and were made part of the Soviet Union, since their independence had never been recognized by Moscow in the first place.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 13, 2008, 12:19:52 PM
I don't think I'd bet the farm on China.  They seem to be intent on tying the noose that will hang em.  Their economy seems to be based on flooding the world with slipshop products...lead-based toys, tainted pet food.  And what is the reason for this?  Twofold....greed and government corruption.  Perhaps the communist ideal looks good on paper, all brothers, all equal, etc, but when it gets down to it, most people are simply not that altruistic. 




Their economy presently seems to hold the outstanding debt that America owes them on the loan to go to war in Iraq. I seem to remember at about $3million but I don't know what the interests rates are.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 13, 2008, 12:24:11 PM
Dzimas,

Mark Kurlansky in 1968 makes the assertion the Chezchoslavakia was the ONLY European communist nation that freely chose to become communist. During the tenure of Dubcek, a referendum was held in the country in which the people voted strongly in favor of communism rather than capitalism. Kurlansky put ten years of research into the book, so it seems likely that he found substantive evidence for that assertion.

Venezuela could perhaps also be included in any list of countries that chose communism freely, although I think what the actually chose was socialism rather than communism. The communism came about when Chavez courted Russia and Cuba after the US refused to recognize his election.

I'm not sure that you could, on the other hand, find a country that in a free election, chose capitalism. Capitalism seems to be a choice made by the elite for the powerless in a given nation. Communism or socialism, seems to be the choice when the powerless are included in a free election to the dismay of the ruling elites.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 13, 2008, 12:41:03 PM
Dzimas and weezo,

The baby-forumula problem was made in America by Nestle. No Nestle products are allowed in my household. At the time,Europe was receiving fresh fruit and vegetable delivery directly from African by jet-air to the capital cities' markets. Sounded great for the consumer. The Producer was an African woman with a child on her back that she took to the fields with her.  I don't know why, and don't recall, what the reasoning could have been that she would make better work time not having to nurse the baby as usual during a nursing break from field cultivation (this reminds me, I have a link for weezo on the larger dispersion than was previously taught in any US schools about the "refugee slave" distribution in our past)--

anyway, back to topic, Nestle supplied the formula used to feed babies more quickly(?) than breast feeding.  Now that so many years have gone by--that was thirty plus  years back--I have seen a lot more politically, more recently, here that indicates the choice was probably made irrationally by the Nestle producers in order to have the contract. I have to suppose they also were buying cacao  from the region at the same time.

It didn't seem to matter to them when they were told that analysis of the food value of their product was zip. Have no memory of their making restitution required by a court. Wouldn't you assume that would have been a judgement?  On the other hand, they were not selling their formula here in the US.  They are a European company if I'm not mistaken, Swiss(?)  Not too many Black people in Switzerland, I suppose?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 13, 2008, 12:58:32 PM
weezo

http://www.inmotionaame.org/home.cfm?bhcp=1

Take a look at the second heading down (on the left) which is the link that I thought this was. That one in  particular covers refugee-slave "get up and go" but the whole program at this above link is from the Schomburg Library in Harlem, which is the biggest collection of African American historic materials. I have posted from it on previous occasions when we were at nytimes.com but same posters interested in American History or African American Literature(at the time;was "amalgamated/integrated" according to the moderator of all forums long before the rest were given up voluntarily?

I first became familiar with the Library in Manhattan but knew somebody whose aunt  was head of staff. He was from Manhattan as well until going to Wisconsin's UWM extension at Platteville , recently retired Law Professor Emeritus Steven Steinglass from Cleveland Heights,Ohio.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 13, 2008, 01:01:58 PM
Ps.weezo,  in which chapter was the Rudi Dutschke material? I don't have the book with chapter titles and numbers but am working from discs and can corelate to the chapters if I know the number and title because every so often the narrator-readers announces what chapter comes next.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 13, 2008, 01:07:30 PM
Bob,re:#361
"In our system we have a right to be different.We are free. We are not equal. What we have is equality of OPPORTUNITY--the OPPORUTINITY to be better than the next guy if we can."

Beg your pardon? about that "We are not equal."  Our constitution guarantees it; that we are equal under the law. Only honored in the breach, however.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 13, 2008, 01:40:36 PM
Dzimas,

Mark Kurlansky in 1968 makes the assertion the Chezchoslavakia was the ONLY European communist nation that freely chose to become communist. During the tenure of Dubcek, a referendum was held in the country in which the people voted strongly in favor of communism rather than capitalism. Kurlansky put ten years of research into the book, so it seems likely that he found substantive evidence for that assertion.

Was this before or after the Soviet tanks rolled into Prague that same year? 

As I recall from my readings, Dubcek won control of the already existing Communist party and pushed for reforms that became known as the Prague Spring.  He called for freedom of the press, normalization with the West and wanted the country to have a multi-party democracy, all of which was quickly squelched by the Soviet Union in the guise of the Warsaw Pact, when the tank cames rolling in later that year.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 13, 2008, 02:10:06 PM
PS, weezo, Venezuela is not a communist state, Chavez has two terms by law, and will have to stand down after this term as the voters did not accept a referendum that would abolish term limits.  Not that Chavez won't try to push the referendum through again.  Maybe he will take a tip from Putin, and run as party leader for parliament where he can potentially stay in power as PM as long as the electorate supports him. 

Anyway, Chavez views his reforms as socialist, not communist, although they do call for the nationalization of a number of industries.  I would agree that he has done more good than harm for Venezuela, at least as far as the rank and file is concerned, but I don't think many Venezuelas want to go down the same path as Cuba, regardless of what sympathies they may hold for Castro.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 13, 2008, 02:14:19 PM
weezo,

 Re: World History
« Reply #365 on: Today at 12:03:04 AM » Quote  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maddie,

Yes, I was reading about Rudi Dutsche and the French redhead who was trying to foment revolution when de Gaulle had France all sewed up in fine, orderly pin-stripes last night. That is probably the reason I am going down this road in discussion. In 1968 there was a tremendous amount of fear in the US that communism would turn out to be the better method than capitalism. The activists seemed to be hedging their bets, still holding onto the trust fund invested in blue chips from granddaddy, but glad-handing the communist leaders as well. Whichever way the economic axe fell, they were ready!

What intrigues me about these folks is their dedication to the "revolution". For the most part, it was a "revolution" without goals, plans, or even solid leadership. In some ways, it was like a week-long 'hood party that broke up as maturity set in. In other ways, it was a strange grassroots emergence that said business as usual must be examined and continued only if it is "good".

                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~
"What intrigues me about these folks is their dedication to the "revolution". "
This is hardly unusual since the French have a fondness for the French Revolution of 1789 which gave the world: The Rights of Man.

This occurred of course almost immediately after the Marquise de Lafayette returned from fighting with General Washington in the American revolt against the British, for which they(the French) had loaned some money for materials. Doubtless this came out of pocket from the Marquise himself as he was the wealthiest man in France.

I just happened to coincide with the Bicentennial celebration seminar, held in Princeton during Easter Break when the campus was otherwise empty except for the Easter candy handout in Greene for the students who had not gone home (this was the first time in years that I had all those jelly beans and things , and probably the last). We had a handful of scholars from Paris who came to lecture along with locals like Robert Darnton, and since Princeton has many "Gothic" style halls which I think are actually somewhat more Tudor on the interiors, like the Harry Potter films, it put you right in the atmosphere.  They did discuss Mentalities,as History, as taught at the Sorbonne, which is a 700 year old school for all whose grades qualify from their Lycee(high-school level); which is a study of history from the resources that unravel what the ordinary person thought about things when he lived "in the Past", rather than the more "Important Man" considered Heroic.  But, Darnton, himself,chose to discuss the Surete or, secret police, and the vast amongs of documentation they did, files they kept on people they had under surveillance during the course of the Revolution.

As a result of this little happenstance, I collect books covering the French Revolution, whenever something interesting comes up.

" In 1968 there was a tremendous amount of fear in the US that communism would turn out to be the better method than capitalism."  I never noticed that but recall having a lot of fun at the time. I think the major fear had been already recovered from, which was nuclear attack. Now, we are once again right in the midst of it, like how stupid could we get? Thinking we could easily get Oil at the hidden but eventual risk that has now surfaced of Nuclear War.

But we had remained relatively unaware of the Vietnam war unless we were draftable or an activist speaking out against the war. It was just at this point that we were made aware. I never watched tv prior to Autumn '69. There were too many other distractions. We did a lot of dancing and we went out a lot to do so, almost every night. I also had readings to do, coffeehouse and basement rock  clubs were packed with people until the small hours of the morning.  Come to think of it, I did go up to the university while Cheney was goofing around up there! I had forgotten that not only did my sister go to school then, but I went to see her there with a friend of mine relocated there for school but who still came down to where she was raised in order to make the club scene and I often went up with her to stay for a few days. This was during the course of the student protest which Kurlansky describes on Bascomb Hill; and the Parisian students were not the only want digging up cobblestones.  These were regularly stashed behind the front porch rails in the student neighborhoods which I'd been familiar with since 1954 when I would go up to work at the Art Department.

I'm told that cobble-bricks were used in retaliation for the cannister tear-gassing of the domestic residences of married students raising small children.  I saw something the other night on film that made quite evident to me that finding a weight of about that size is an advantageous weapon against anyone pursuing you for the purpose of mayhem and who is otherwise unarmed but could be and this technique would give you time to your advantage if you know your location. You simply pitch  this at the solar plexus of your opponent.

The Cheneys, Lynn and Dick, although not then yet married, were relatively uninterested in any of this street activity around campus. I do recall seeing an army truck of armed National Guardsmen very young turn the corner of Bascomb in front of me as I was going into one of the buildings.  They were of course, also very young because they would otherwise be in Vietnam if they had not joined the Guard or been in ROTC. The reason for their making their presence seen, like the photos a decade plus a few years later of the same visible patrol in Grenada where an airstrip had to be taken apart lest the Soviets arrive, was the bombing of the Mathematics building which was receiving grants from the Army.

So, as the French say,"On the contrary, instead of being like: 'it was like a week-long 'hood party'; in Paris, among other places, it was a protest against the American occupation of Vietnam after the French had left. They did leave a few Germans behind from the Foreign Legion, according to an American from North Dakota who was there and used to post us his CIA materials in the Western Europe forum at nytimes. He retired in France.  

The first "reason" for protest, just carried over into numerous other good causes to demonstrate.

Since then we have the only blue-chip person presiding over the French Government, Nicholas Sarkozy. I think he was more blue-chip in the past than he is today, as he obviously is compensating in other forms of getting attention. I have been too exhausted the last couple of days to translate some provisional paper for the next concept.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 13, 2008, 03:01:07 PM
Maddie,

According to the index in the book, the chapters where Rudi Dutsch is discussed are Chapter 9, Sons and Daughters of the New Fatherland, and Chapter 12, Monseur, We Think You Are Rotten. Chapter 12 mentions Dusch, as a shadow presence, while it focuses on the activities of Dani the Red, whose real name was Daniel Cohn-Bendit, a red-headed french student who became a spokesperson and leader by default.

Dzimas,

1968 was the year when the soviets put all those tanks inside the border of Czechoslovakia. Through the diplomacy of Dubcek, they were withdrawn in mid summer without incident. The Czechs had secured their rights to some freedoms while remaining within the soviet bloc. Breshnev wasn't happy, but there was little he could do about it. The possibility of invasion was brought up, then decided against.

One thing that the book has brought to my attention, is the post WWII presence of Nazi officials still in power in West Germany. As a good thing, the soviets purged all the nazis from East Germany, but in the west the "anti-nazificiation" was ended in short order, and those who were guilty of some of the worst atrocities were going on with their lives. I really did think that all the nazi officials and those who took part in the criminal activities against the Jews, had been rounded up and punishment meted out for their offenses against humanity. It is very disappointing to learn that I had been misled during that time.







Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 13, 2008, 03:10:15 PM
Dzimas,

For Venezuela to "go the way of Cuba" is a statement I am confused by. What way did Cuba go? Seems to me that most of the "poverty" experienced in Cuba was a direct result of the economic and trade sanctions imposed imperialistically by the US. But, the wealth of Cuba is still there. They still raise sugar, make cigars, and manufacture rum - the same sources of income that supported the "gentry" and "elites" before Castro stripped them of their wealth and redistributed it into education, roads, and other improvements the benefitted a greater number of Cubans.  I have no earthly idea why we still, decades later, still have laws that forbid import of Cuban goods. Seems by now we can see that Cuba is a stable government and that it governs with the consent of the governed, which cannot be said about the Batista regime. A few years ago I had a few email exchanges with a college prof in Cuba, and he said that if Cuba was allowed to trade freely, it would become a model country. For a nation that insists it is "into" free trade, it makes no sense to me to prevent import of Cuban goods, or oil from Venezuela, but to welcome imports from China.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on January 13, 2008, 03:13:40 PM
Maddy, the Rudi Dutschke material is on pages 149-56 in Part II, Prague Spring, Chapter 9, "Sons and Daughters of the New Fatherland".

Speaking of rebellion and revolution being "in the air" the world over, now that I read "1968" I'm wondering why Jane Fonda had nearly all her flesh removed because she went to Hanoi and sat on a tank.  Was it her leaning back, and the smile?  Youngsters all over the world were parading and chanting for the military success of Ho Chi Minh.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 13, 2008, 05:43:15 PM
Yes, but they weren't over here in America. That was quite satisfying to the authorities. Why do you think they always say,"If you don't like it, leave it!"  Our protests were not so light-hearted and done for fun as well as political purpose. I think we imitated the Southern Conference marches to some extent which made white college students and drop outs look grim by comparison to Europeans.

Strange to say, I looked at the nice list of chapters so kindly given to me and discerned immediately that a New Fatherland in Chap.9 must be the way to go for the strange story of the boy who lost everything. If not that chapter,then surely Wagnerian Overtones of the Hip and Bearded should do it. Nope.

I want you to know that I played those discs and not a word about Dutschke out of Cazenove in any depth. I think there could be a slip up either between how the disc begins or something worse. Maybe I will stumble on to something after a bit. They seem to do that thing that the old 78rpms always did, or rather some machines on which they were played. The arm might come down to repeat itself but just short of the whole cut and begin oddly but leaving something out.

Needless to say,  we learned the colorful identities of these guys in Europe by and by.  Some of them we already knew because of the poets we were familiar with in other languages. Hans Magnus Enzensbeger leads to Wolf Biermann, etc.; the latter of which wrote the eulogy for Dutschke's funeral.  We knew these writers because they were the next generation. One of them showed up over at the nytimes while we were still there. He just left a message in Meander or something, so I rushed back to Western Europe forum and told the German speakers up there that so-and-so had suddenly shown up and I'd answered his post to say that I knew the work for forty years already. Immediately my archive provider chimed in, "So did I.",he never said much in English but then as a German had gone to school in Paris in the Latin Quarter about the time we are talking about.

Enzensberger, I was surprised to discover lived in Cuba for awhile, he is now an old man of course, as aren't we all except those of us who are old women?

Which brings me to the subject weezo asked about --not knowing about all those Nazis who, no, they weren't punished, they were rewarded,do you think I should tell her where they went?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 13, 2008, 06:06:56 PM
chinese Infant formula scandal

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C00E7DE1E3DF936A35756C0A9629C8B63


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 13, 2008, 06:17:12 PM
Maddie,

I know that some of the Nazi's escaped to South America, but that was the extent of what I knew. Otherwise, I thought they were all cleaned up, jailed for life or executed. Rewarded? No wonder we have NeoNazi's emerging among our disaffected youth! Oh, well, I guess that the price of never learning another language well enough to use it.

So, where else did these nazi's go?





Title: Re: World History
Post by: MrUtley3 on January 13, 2008, 10:13:56 PM
Part of what makes capitalism great is not that the elite have the right "to lord it over those born in poverty who will never have the opportunity to be in the other shoe."  But rather that anyone in this system can make it.  It doesn't matter if you are born into poverty or wealth.  I was educated in one of those inner city schools that we hear such terrible things about.  For school lunch, we were not allowed to eat jelly and peanut butter on the same slice of bread because my parents couldn't affort that kind of waste.  My father was a grave-digger who didn't even complete eighth grade, yet my son is getting a doctorate from an ivy league and my daughter just got her bachelor's from one of the best conservatories in the world.  In America, anyone can make it...anyone who is willing to work hard and get the best education they can get, that is.   

If you admire socialism and communism, I would suggest that you talk to some of the immigrants who have made America their home and ask them why they have chosen to make their lives here. 




Horatio Alger lives.

He's wearing a dress, but he lives.

 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 13, 2008, 11:22:37 PM
Dzimas,

Read a bit further, and the invasion of Czechoslovakia took place in August. Kurlansky devotes several pages to the heroic behavior of Duvcek in Moscow where it seems he underwent some sort of torture that required him to take "shots" during the negotiations, although as the negotiations were coming to a summit, he loudly refused to take the shots, probably because they were making him seem confused and ineffective. The resulting agreement, in which the Soviets held the upper hand and the Czechs were basically on the receiving end of nothing, reminded me very much of the many treaties between the Native Americans and the colonists and later the Americans. In these treaties the Natives typically got nothing of value and gave up their life-sustaining lands to those who would get rich on the difference between the pittance "paid" the Indians and the actual value of the acquisitions. It is interesting, that just like the Americans tried to get the young and disaffected among the Natives to sign deeds for "their" tribes without the consent of the true leaders of the tribes, so the Soviets tried to slip around the Dubcek legitimate government, first by alternate government that was expected to be in place by the time the invasion reached Prague, then by trying to use the octegenerian president who the soviets believed would be more loyal to them than to the Czech people, and finally resorting to the tried and true round 'em up, jail them, and let them disappear on the gallows after a "trial" that was a mockery of justice. In the same way, the Americans tried a variety of ruses to avoid the leadership of the Natives and even found it "just" to uphold signatures affixed under threat of guns or drowned in rivers of rum.

Perhaps it would be good to compare the experiences of the Five Nations and the Americans to the Eastern European countries (including Czechoslovakia, and perhaps Lithuania), and the Soviet Union.

Maddie,

Where did those old nazi's go in the time between WWII and development of blogs? I've been on the Internet since before it was named such, and, perhaps since I tend to stick more to educational stuff online, I haven't tripped over their swastikas. In the Bitnet days of the Internet, when the Internet began it's mushrooming growth, conservatives and capitalists were personnas non grata.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 13, 2008, 11:50:13 PM
Weezo, either you or Kurlansky completely misread what happened in Czechoslovakia.  They never willingly accepted communism.  Dubcek was a reformer within the Communist Party.  People in Eastern Europe and the Baltic States had no other choice but to work within the Communist Party since that was the only party that existed in these one party states.  Dubcek wanted a multi-party system like that which existed in Western Europe. 

Then you try to say that Venezuela willingly accepted "communsim," when they have nothing of the sort in the country.  Sure a socialist revolution is taking place in Venezuela, but the people of the country want it to remain a democratic country with different political parties represented in the parliament, not a one party state like that which exists in Cuba.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 14, 2008, 12:06:12 AM
Dzimas,

I'm sorry I keep mixing up communism and socialism, but for as long as I can remember the two have been presented as equal evils. After I finish reading the book, I will go back and try to find the page where Kurlansky says specifically that Czechoslovakia was the only country to choose communism (and make sure that it says communism rather than socialism).

The point I was making in my last post was that the Soviet Union and Communism were not the first to abuse those who they collected within their borders and declared themselves the sole rulers of. It was also quite the practice by the early US (and later as has been documented).

I do suggest that you read Kurlansky yourself, and do not too heavily depend on my discussion of its contents. To be perfectly honest, in 1968 I, and perhaps many/most Americans were interested in what was happening here in the states, and, while I'm sure I heard or read about the Czech invasion, it wasn't something that had significance to me at all. In 1968 I was heavily invested in clean diapers and having them in the right place at the right time. I was interested in the Civil Rights movement, and to a lesser degree, the hippie movement. The year 1968 was also the time when I began to take a stand opposed to the Vietnam War. But, in keeping with the traditional role of motherhoood, I never participate in any demonstrations, riots, or had any of the other fun of those my age who had gone on to college. I did college later in life.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 14, 2008, 01:48:24 AM
America's and indeed Western Europe's flirtation with communism ended with the Soviets rolling into Budapest in 1956.  The brutal treatment of Hungary dismissed any illusions that Americans and Western Europeans had about the success of the Soviet Union.  It was made evidently clear that this was a brutal dictatorial regime.  Khrushchev tried to put a kinder, gentler face on Communism in the years ahead, creating a spirit of openess in the early 60's, but obviously countries like Czechoslovakia pushed that openess too far and in '68 Prague served as a repeat of Budapest.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: bosox18d on January 14, 2008, 03:07:57 AM
I went to 8 years of Catholic school and then 9th grade at a  Boys Jesuit High School before going to public.My English teacher at McQuaid Jesuit was a Mr.Turk who had escaped Budapest with his family in 56.Mr. Turk had a cool accent but was one of the best English teachers I ever had.The amusing thing though was Mr.Turk called everyone Master and last name.I was Master Abel but we had a kid in our class Mark Bader.Mr. Turk turned me onto Zoe Oldenbourg.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 14, 2008, 04:11:58 AM
I went to 8 years of Catholic school and then 9th grade at a  Boys Jesuit High School before going to public.My English teacher at McQuaid Jesuit was a Mr.Turk who had escaped Budapest with his family in 56.Mr. Turk had a cool accent but was one of the best English teachers I ever had.The amusing thing though was Mr.Turk called everyone Master and last name.I was Master Abel but we had a kid in our class Mark Bader.Mr. Turk turned me onto Zoe Oldenbourg.

I hope there was no Bates in your class.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on January 14, 2008, 10:00:51 AM
... but obviously countries like Czechoslovakia pushed that openess too far and in '68 Prague served as a repeat of Budapest.

Which is why NHL player Jaromir Jagr (born in 1972 in Czechoslovakia) wears #68 -- in honor of the Prague rebellion in 1968 and of his grandfather who died while in prison.  I get the impression that grandpa was imprisoned for political reasons, but haven't been able to confirm it.  So, I have to think that if someone not even born at the time of the rebellion feels that strongly about it not being forgotten, not everyone in Czechoslovakia was psyched about being part of the Communist bloc. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 14, 2008, 10:30:31 AM
... but obviously countries like Czechoslovakia pushed that openess too far and in '68 Prague served as a repeat of Budapest.

Which is why NHL player Jaromir Jagr (born in 1972 in Czechoslovakia) wears #68 -- in honor of the Prague rebellion in 1968 and of his grandfather who died while in prison.  I get the impression that grandpa was imprisoned for political reasons, but haven't been able to confirm it.  So, I have to think that if someone not even born at the time of the rebellion feels that strongly about it not being forgotten, not everyone in Czechoslovakia was psyched about being part of the Communist bloc. 

It was a great day in Prague when Jagr led the Czech team to an Olympic gold medal over the Russians.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on January 14, 2008, 12:52:12 PM
It stuns the mind to think of how "the Cuba thing" could have turned out had Eisenhower and Kennedy not made the decisions they did.  Hindsight?  Well, yes.  But even early on, not painting ourselves into a corner was debatable.  But, like so much historical folly, we didn't.

Unfortunately, we still are letting Miami Cubans (and their fellow travelers) "wag" us.

In 2008, so much of the ethnic emnity carried forward hundreds of years is just below the surface in Europe.  Ready to break out with enough provacation.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 14, 2008, 01:07:37 PM

chinese Infant formula scandal

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C00E7DE1E3DF936A35756C0A9629C8B63


Just sotto voce, how do your dates compare?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9E0DE4D71639F932A15750C0A964948260&scp=1&sq=Nestle+baby+formula

http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=Nestle+baby+formula&srchst=nyt


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 14, 2008, 01:16:12 PM
I wasn't commenting on the Nestle Baby Formula, you seemed unaware of the Chinese problem, and so the link.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 14, 2008, 01:17:35 PM
Dzimas and weezo,

The baby-forumula problem was made in America by Nestle. No Nestle products are allowed in my household. At the time,Europe was receiving fresh fruit and vegetable delivery directly from African by jet-air to the capital cities' markets. Sounded great for the consumer. The Producer was an African woman with a child on her back that she took to the fields with her.  I don't know why, and don't recall, what the reasoning could have been that she would make better work time not having to nurse the baby as usual during a nursing break from field cultivation (this reminds me, I have a link for weezo on the larger dispersion than was previously taught in any US schools about the "refugee slave" distribution in our past)--

anyway, back to topic, Nestle supplied the formula used to feed babies more quickly(?) than breast feeding.  Now that so many years have gone by--that was thirty plus  years back--I have seen a lot more politically, more recently, here that indicates the choice was probably made irrationally by the Nestle producers in order to have the contract. I have to suppose they also were buying cacao  from the region at the same time.

It didn't seem to matter to them when they were told that analysis of the food value of their product was zip. Have no memory of their making restitution required by a court. Wouldn't you assume that would have been a judgement?  On the other hand, they were not selling their formula here in the US.  They are a European company if I'm not mistaken, Swiss(?)  Not too many Black people in Switzerland, I suppose?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 14, 2008, 01:23:30 PM
Of course, a big difference between China and America is that when a bigwig in China messes up, he gets shot.  When a company president in American business messes up, he retires with a huge severance package, goes on to be president of another company, and finally writes a bestseller about what it takes to succeed in business.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on January 14, 2008, 01:26:48 PM
Donotremove: "It stuns the mind to think of how "the Cuba thing" could have turned out had Eisenhower and Kennedy not made the decisions they did.  Hindsight?  Well, yes.  But even early on, not painting ourselves into a corner was debatable.  But, like so much historical folly, we didn't."

After Castro publicly announced to the world that he was a communist, former President Harry Truman suggested that had he been President, he might have kept Castro from aligning himself with Moscow. That too was the voice of hindsight, and partisanship, I must add. But I don’t think that the Cuban Revolution was brought about by decisions made by Eisenhower or Kennedy. Castro's overthrow of Batista was initially welcomed by the U.S. which saw in it an opportunity to forge closer ties to what the U.S. deemed the key state in the Caribbean. I presume you're thinking of the Bay of Pigs fiasco?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 14, 2008, 01:29:26 PM
I talked to my son last night about this as to the scandal in Africa and he was right about the selling point that they used when I asked him how they got market-share for good works while at the same time buying cacao from Africa, which is a very expensive commodity unless you can play an angle, a trade-off. To support the bottom line, they turned to their advertising department writers and came up with their formula being better than breast-milk and, somehow I don't think African women cultivating their fields as usual were hip to how we sell commodities as we turned global,global,global chugaluging the profits of false advertising.

Sorry Hoffman, I got my information from following along the consumer lines of Esther Peterson who had been to China and back. She was a consumer advocate as far back as the FDR administration, an ordinary farm woman from Iowa, who was then appointed to the John Kennedy administration. She was a real old fashioned woman with her white braids across the top of her head who wore those cotton dresses with the short sleeves and practical collars.

What they do in China since Modernization is not my stick. As I used to say to the guys from Brit.Canada who wanted to participate in the rip-off by buying a factory in China and going into business, whenever they got critical of American policy in the Western Europe forum of nytimes after the deal both Canada and UK made with our administration, we have a policy of non-interference in the internal affairs of foreign countries, and likewise a policy of dittoe so they do not interfere in the internal affairs of the US. Isn't it hilarious in retrospect. These guys made a killing in Iraq as contractors and Corporate Powers may in the end excede National Political powers as my son suggested; I promised him, they will not. It is another passing over-arching, over-weaning, ideological practice that wont stand the passage of time. There's likely to be a real attempt to amend the record on Human Rights,as George Bush retires from office.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 14, 2008, 01:34:05 PM

I wasn't commenting on the Nestle Baby Formula, you seemed unaware of the Chinese problem, and so the link.


I am probably a lot more aware of the China problem than you could ever be. You seem to be unaware of the US problem of the tax-payer owing the loan PRC made to the Bush administration to buy the war material for his war in Iraq that you and I did not vote on.   This was similar to the American loan made to Hitler for war material in WW2. There will probably be similar results.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 14, 2008, 01:43:56 PM

Of course, a big difference between China and America is that when a bigwig in China messes up, he gets shot.  When a company president in American business messes up, he retires with a huge severance package, goes on to be president of another company, and finally writes a bestseller about what it takes to succeed in business.


No difference, when a bigwig in the US is thought to have messed up, he too gets shot; I noticed 2007 was the year that nobody in the exiled forums remembered the date of Kennedy's demise. I delicately brought up why Gandhi fasted.

Some more recent corporate executives have simply collapsed and didn't survive to wake up; or maybe waking up was killing them.

More recently corporate execs having wised up to the set-up have more stamina and will probably outlast the death of the political administration that was. What was they? The Decider, plus Energy Czar,plus pharmaceutical stock-holder in charge of biochemist expiration dates and Defense for awhile, various stooges who wanted upward mobility in legality at Justice Dept. and other attorneys who will have to sing for the Supremes.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 14, 2008, 01:46:39 PM
Donotremove: "It stuns the mind to think of how "the Cuba thing" could have turned out had Eisenhower and Kennedy not made the decisions they did.  Hindsight?  Well, yes.  But even early on, not painting ourselves into a corner was debatable.  But, like so much historical folly, we didn't."

After Castro publicly announced to the world that he was a communist, former President Harry Truman suggested that had he been President, he might have kept Castro from aligning himself with Moscow. That too was the voice of hindsight, and partisanship, I must add. But I don’t think that the Cuban Revolution was brought about by decisions made by Eisenhower or Kennedy. Castro's overthrow of Batista was initially welcomed by the U.S. which saw in it an opportunity to forge closer ties to what the U.S. deemed the key state in the Caribbean. I presume you're thinking of the Bay of Pigs fiasco?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 14, 2008, 02:03:31 PM
I hit the wrong button....
]
Donotremove: "It stuns the mind to think of how "the Cuba thing" could have turned out had Eisenhower and Kennedy not made the decisions they did.  Hindsight?  Well, yes.  But even early on, not painting ourselves into a corner was debatable.  But, like so much historical folly, we didn't."

After Castro publicly announced to the world that he was a communist, former President Harry Truman suggested that had he been President, he might have kept Castro from aligning himself with Moscow. That too was the voice of hindsight, and partisanship, I must add. But I don’t think that the Cuban Revolution was brought about by decisions made by Eisenhower or Kennedy. Castro's overthrow of Batista was initially welcomed by the U.S. which saw in it an opportunity to forge closer ties to what the U.S. deemed the key state in the Caribbean. I presume you're thinking of the Bay of Pigs fiasco?


I made the most extraordinary discovery yesterday before whizzing weezo a link on the dispersion of America's black population that was recalcitrant to labor under the working conditions in pre-Emancipation America. 

When I got down to the nitty gritty of how did Louisiana deal with the Haitian Revolution against the French (which Bush felt he had to deal with all over again in 2002; what a spoiler and a party pooper he was as Amy Goodman can tell you)and then, the same period upset of Jefferson buying the region from Napoleon before he went into exile, and the resultant laws New Orleanians came up with when they had too many Free Negros on hand for their comfort, just as numerous African Americans not long arrived from Haiti turned around because they didn't like "Americans" and left for France, there was another contingent of Haitian Creoles who stopped off in Cuba without coming direct to Louisiana.

Here's the kicker, the problem with the whole lot as far as les blancs were concerned, 1) they were of African descent, 2) Napoleon had left them military-minded to the enth., 3)they were free,and republican, 4) after a little stay in Cuba, the Creole intellectuals of Haiti settled down to a militant policy of supporting the revolutions of the Latin countries, with the exception of Brazil, I noticed. But Mexico was affected, Venezuela, Peru, and Bolivia which is now demonstrating a class struggle for which Castro's friend Hugo is supposed to be the fall guy. And I "am unaware of China".  Love it. Just love it.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 14, 2008, 03:46:11 PM
weezo, I have not forgotten the "Where did they go?" question.
(Posted on: Today at 03:07:57 AMPosted by: bosox18d 
Insert Quote
I went to 8 years of Catholic school and then 9th grade at a  Boys Jesuit High School before going to public ...)
 
Like bosox18d, except I reversed the high school arrangement by going where I didn't want to go(public school, as in "who cares about Prep school?") before going to convent school which I would rather have had as an all girl school education in one of the many Catholic educational options and then I wouldn't have had that little problem about the all male history class (except me) resheduled to swimming class 1st hour. Which simply indicates that I was in school a few years before bosox and had already dealt with the Wehrmacht POWs while in grade school.
 
In high school, I dealt with their survivors. So there is something to be said for Prep school before Convent after all.
 
You can't imagine what it is like when speaking to one more German because your home town was basically founded by Germans and, somewhere in about the second paragraph of what they tell you after having engaged in conversation, you start to feel sick at the realization that you are having someone try to pick you up who is now one of the local Germans but wasn't always and has an interesting history.
 
For providing information, during the denazification investigation  of their background, and being cooperative while the examiners were looking for assistance in the rocket program and weeding out possible nuclear personnel, they received a free pass, they went through immigration and they brought their families, and life went on as usual in a gemuetlich environment and milieu, eventual trips back to some parts of Germany, and they felt self-satisfied as Senator Joseph McCarthy began his own investigations.
 
By then, I recall watching Roy Cohn  on tv in New Jersey but when I went from East Coast to Midwest, I gradually found most things remained the same in German-American communities.  I'm trying to remember something else you said in your post, that I agreed with,and I will have to check back exactly how you put it.

"No wonder we have NeoNazi's emerging among our disaffected youth! " weezo,re:#392

Exactly, I've said that many times during the last five years, here and "there".





Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on January 14, 2008, 04:06:32 PM
Caclark, sorry.  I used too few words to describe where my mind was at.  The Finknottle dilemma.

I'm aware that everyone agreed getting rid of Batista was a good idea.  What I meant was, AFTER the Revolution had progressed to the point that Castro was fooling around with different "ways to proceed."  He wasn't "fixed" on a lot of things.  He DID overwhelmingly favor Socialism.  Red Flag.  Red Flag.  That stirred the American ant pile more than anything.  And he, My God, talked to the Russian Communists.  Red, Red Flag.  Plus he kept insisting The Revolution was still ongoing long after "we" thought he should consider it "done."  Which Castro still does to this day.

The Bay of Pigs was one of the results of our "quick draw" thinking. The Cuban missile crisis was another (to name just two "results".)  We ended up shooting ourselves in the foot.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 14, 2008, 07:05:02 PM
Maddie,

If I understood what you said, after WWII, the US opened its doors to the Nazis who should have had to answer for their actions during the war. They moved into existing German communities and neighborhoods then simply vanished into the crowd.

That is certainly an eye-opener. I can understand why the Russians and East Germans, not to mention other groups, would object to our providing shelter to such criminals.

One thing that seems to be happening in recent years, is that I am learning it isn't just "modern" America which has blood caked on its hands, but it's been a "tradition" since Jamestown!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 14, 2008, 07:19:09 PM
Anne...The German scientists who worked for the Nazis didn't have to vanish into the neighborhood, they were quite high profile.  The place to begin the search is "Operation Paperclip." 

The question arises as to whether the scientists were willing participants in the regime.  But then, we could also ask that question also about those who worked in the camps, the army, etc. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 14, 2008, 07:37:30 PM
Quote
Kurlansky says specifically that Czechoslovakia was the only country to choose communism (and make sure that it says communism rather than socialism).


For the life of me I can't find anywhere he, Kurlansky, or for that matter anybody, ever said the Czechs chose Communism. The Czechs had little to do with what Dubcek chose--he chose a milder form of Communism and hoped that if he went slow enough he might be able to wean his country away from the stranglehold the Soviets had over the country, but he lost control of the situation. I think, but don't hold me to it, even Kurlansky admits his thinking or decision making was slow and was one reason the Soviets were able to reassert their control. The whole episode lasted only 5 months or so....

Dzimas: I think if you get a chance to read  Kurlansky, he seems to give a fairly objective picture of the events in Czechlosovakia


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 14, 2008, 07:45:17 PM
Bob,

I am almost finished with the book, and will then go back and find some of the stuff I read and note where it is. It was somewhere in the early part of the book, perhaps the first time he mention the Czechs.

I've collected a number of Kurlansky's books in the past few months, and find he is an interesting writer. I like how he fills in the blanks in my knowledge. I'm not sure how valuable it is to know, for instance, how the Basques developed, yet, I find myself questioning some things in the study of the evolution of man that may have some clues in Kurlansky's book. For such books, I can make bookcase space!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 14, 2008, 07:50:38 PM
I recall following the Cuban Revolution closely through the newspapers of the times. I was 16 or 17 years old then---I was sucked in the proposition that Fidel Castro was an "agrarian reformer" propounded by Herbert Matthews, a reporter for the Hearst chain if I remember correctly. When it became apparent Castro was to be victorious the Eisenhower Administration took his side and continued to support him until the blood flowed too freely in the sports arena in Havana.

Dzimas: I have nothing but anti-Castro stuff in my library (and precious little at that). Can you give me somewhere to go to get more of a neutral position or at least to give me some positives you mentioned a few days ago/


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 14, 2008, 08:04:23 PM
Is Kurlansky alluding to the 1946 Parliamentary Elections:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_parliamentary_election,_1946


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 14, 2008, 08:12:05 PM
I just looked up Herbert Matthews....he worked for the NEW YORK TIMES...here's the very influential articles from the NY TIMES which provided a positive view of Castro during the year in which he won. Read in particular the February series of Herbert Matthews--these were the articles which swayed me toward Castro.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba-rev-57.htm


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 14, 2008, 10:46:07 PM
Caclark, sorry.  I used too few words to describe where my mind was at.  The Finknottle dilemma.

I'm aware that everyone agreed getting rid of Batista was a good idea.  What I meant was, AFTER the Revolution had progressed to the point that Castro was fooling around with different "ways to proceed."  He wasn't "fixed" on a lot of things.  He DID overwhelmingly favor Socialism.  Red Flag.  Red Flag.  That stirred the American ant pile more than anything.  And he, My God, talked to the Russian Communists.  Red, Red Flag.  Plus he kept insisting The Revolution was still ongoing long after "we" thought he should consider it "done."  Which Castro still does to this day.

The Bay of Pigs was one of the results of our "quick draw" thinking. The Cuban missile crisis was another (to name just two "results".)  We ended up shooting ourselves in the foot.

FOR SOME REASON THE QUOTE BOX IS NOT FUNCTIONING FOR ME TONIGHT NOR CAN I PICK UP THE QUOTE THAT i WANT TO MAKE?

Not only did Fidel keep on insisting that the Revolution was ongoing but, with study of the matter in the US laggard if not verboten, they probably had no idea here in this country that "Revolution is Continual". That is a hard concept for anybody educated in this society to grasp until he looks at History. Oddly enough Marx had and called it "economic" history. Try to look back as far as the first revolution that you can remember and then ask yourself or tell me "when has it ever stopped?".

By the time that  Eisenhower was a president who had returned from war, likewise had Mao Tze-Tung. Whether he actually originated the phrase is another matter because a lot of the sayings in his little red book were already known to the educated as part of the tradition of China's literate history. I hate to be so  overly emphatic repeating concepts, because of course history is literate. The little red book served to teach the illiterate how to read. The lessons were repeated  by rote. Then you moved on to other things readable. Basically,"Revolution is Continual" is the outcome of what is known in the PRC as "Marxist-Leninist Mao syang sya" and was actively studied by the younger generation who became literate after the war and known as the Red Guard --
of the Chinese Cultural Revolution. They made the country over into a Modern State in the period of time between Eisenhower and Now (even while America had a war in Vietnam about it, because the French withdrew from their Indochine colony).

That possibly more than anything kept us after Castro and all his cronies, such as Che wandering into Bolivia to continue the work of Bolivar,the Liberator; and, ironically, the Opening of China to the West, at the time of Kissinger and Nixon, Chou En-Lai and Mao, was at the very same time accompanied by Operation Condor in the South American countryside without national borders by GHW Bush because the military police could operate more efficiently that way. They'd run them up to Fort Benning,Georgia for training by the Negroponte method, and run them back down where ever they had to create some mayhem in the kind of crackdown that permitted whichever dictator regionally to crack the whip and have an excuse for continuing Emergency Security rules and regulations.  Apparently,junior learned these lessons very well and all it took was one governorship and he was ready to put them into application as a President himself. What's next? Where do you think junior got that saying but from Pop.. about "continuous war". He is now sitting over in Dubai asking another loan from a government so that he can continue prosecuting his war upon some other Muslim sect. Won't this make everybody happy?
 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 14, 2008, 11:27:26 PM
Correct me if I get the wrong founding father, but wasn't it Thomas Jefferson who posited that a country will need to have a revolution every generation or so, in order to keep the government by and for the people?

Seems the idea of everlasting war was proposed long before anyone ever heard of a communist. And it came from those we honor a revere most highly!
 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 15, 2008, 12:43:42 AM
Weezo
Don't recall that re: Jefferson. Bob would know.

But everlasting may be a confusion with the Clausewitz dictum that war was the continuation of politics by other means.

Did you check Operation Paperclip? I can see where Hoffman would be knowledgable. Back around the time of the discussion on Nasoreans in the news  at The New York Times, people were wrangling about the definition when in History forum, I think it was at any rate because Bob was here, I had even supplied Hoffman with a periodic history as to why the Nasoreans were in Iraq around Basra, when John60r dropped by (whom I asked about Theata of Myth and Ancient Literature?). Hoffman then said to John that her husband was a physicist. Although I would suppose she is a little younger than the era out at Fort Bliss,Texas, if her husband had studied, then it may have been discussed. He published something on color spectrum, if I recall.

I thought the photo and name listed with 3 missing identities quite fascinating to contemplate, although I disagree with the notion that
much depends on:"The question arises as to whether the scientists were willing participants in the regime.", because of course they were. In that very article in discussing the identity of participants, the very wording describes individuals as "Nazi scientist", etc.  "But then, we could also ask that question also about those who worked in the camps, the army, etc. " begs the question as we've already known why "who" worked in the camps, and that the army was made up of the "called up for service" just as the Third Reich did with German-Americans who were expected to report for their duty. I found that rather surprising and did not learn of that detail until I was nearly twenty or more years older.  Many who had served did not intend to go back to Germany after having been Prisoners of War in our suburban villages, because they had lost family and Deutschland was in ruins. They stayed; because part of the benefit of POW existence in German-American communities was how jobs could be found for them, arranged, placements, and they fit into communities with their common culture, our architecture was the same, our churches were of their religion, our clubs, especially athletic clubs and organizations, the restaurants, our bier-stueb.... It goes on and on.

I had not realized until quite recently, how many "boys" had worked on farms in Iowa after the war. Goodness knows, I was not back there much at the time until beyond immediately after the war;but, apparently, farmers in some part of Iowa  made the introduction (and I think this is part of the work placement arranged that I referred to before) of farm families who originated in the same areas of Germany and felt sympathetic is how it was worded.  It is in the material that I posted about Mildred Harnack who was executed in Germany despite her close friendship with the family of the American ambassador to Germany at that time. I think that I posted it when we were discussing the Mailer novel, in fiction. I asked around that time whether any posters recalled the tv production of a film about the largest POW camp in the US, located in Texas, it was adapted from a story by one of our renowned writers who had been through the Iowa Writers Workshop; small changes were made to shift the setting from POW to " refugee workers" and another words the shift from hearing about this in Iowa was transferred to the Texas setting. The writer was a Southern person who had merely incidentally heard about this extraordinary "vignette" while in Iowa undergoing her grant for a period of time to write and be critiqued along with the others in the workshop.

Why did the television play stay with me visually? Because it had the American actor Shirley Stoll whom Martin Scorsese had discovered; she was best known for playing opposite Giancarlo Gianinni in the Lena Wertmuller film,Seven Beauties. This movie offended some of my friends because it graphically enacted scenes of local police participating with the execution of local Jews lined up naked on the edge of ravines. This film was otherwise concocted as a comedy about what one will do to stay alive, and necessarily had to have the afore described scene to authenticate the severity faced. Shirley played the female concentration camp guard who flirts with tiny Giancarlo Gianinni who decides to flirt back although it may have started the other way around; who am I to say?  The ridiculousness of the situation is the contrast  between the two participants because Stoller was an immensely large woman who strides around bursting out of her uniform while in those black leather boots and flicking her whip. I don't think we have any motion picture stars of those proportions anymore. The film-maker Lena Wurtmuller who generally examined the Italian customs, however in this film deals with the old Freudian notion of Eros and Thanatos in light of facing death one clings to life erotically without question. That, or the world would not go on.

And then we come to the question that Hoffman "would also ask about those who worked in the camps,...".  Jonah Goldhagen answered that quite well in the largest tome, I had to balance on my knees from start to finish about ten to twelve years ago, although I sometime cross-reference it with another smaller work in size but replete with information titled, Auschwitz.  As you will notice, this was long before I arrived in what used to be termed Book Forums. I read all this along with Edith Wharton and Philip Roth and Gore Vidal because it was there.
Just to wrap this up, wouldn't you know that another film is probably by now in post-production, adapted from a book, in which the concentration camp guard will be Nicole Kidman. These questions continue to bother people. Why, because Goldhagen gave the reason to the hordes of Germans who turned out to hear him speak on his great book perhaps at the Frankfurt Book Fair(?)   He said that his research revealed that local women took the jobs because they needed the extra household money, what with a war on, and sacrifices being made, a topic which I tried to develop with the reading of Gunther Grass, Peeling the Onion, what were those household sacrifices, what was life like?   The thing that absolutely shocked me in the Jonah Goldhagen research was that the concentration camps were not the big repeated names we recognize and see on the map distant apart; no, they were located approximately every two miles or so, not bothered about, no curiosity, which is why the locals naturally turned to them for employment as camp guards.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 15, 2008, 04:05:00 AM

Dzimas: I have nothing but anti-Castro stuff in my library (and precious little at that). Can you give me somewhere to go to get more of a neutral position or at least to give me some positives you mentioned a few days ago/


Bob, I've gotten alot out of The Cuba Reader,

http://www.amazon.com/Cuba-Reader-History-Culture-Politics/dp/0822331977/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200387804&sr=1-4

Hard to find a straight history that isn't biased in one way or another.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on January 15, 2008, 04:26:32 AM
This and That, 1968.

Am I the only one who has always enjoyed the 60s-70s music (not the heavy metal) while stone cold sober and drug free?  That stuff was great.  It still is.

The German internment camp here in Texas is not over 25 miles from where I'm sitting.  Seagoville, Texas.

It seems one thing has changed dramatically since 1968.  People of all ages, not just the young, have learned how to organize and not only build a following but to also focus on the task or mission at hand.  In 1968 much of the protest energy was wasted.

Even before the last shots were fired at the end of WWII, Americans were racing to round up as many German scientists and technical people as possible, before the Russians could get them.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 15, 2008, 07:26:26 AM
No, Donot, You are not the only one who loved and still loves the happy, cheerful, get-up-and-dance music of the 60's and 70's. That music is now referred to as "classic rock", although it does include lots of folk music and lots of just plain fun music.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 15, 2008, 08:53:20 AM
Is Kurlansky alluding to the 1946 Parliamentary Elections:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_parliamentary_election,_1946

Hardly a majority at 30%.  Different story two years later:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/czechoslovakia.htm

Czechoslovakia's democratic-communist experiment after WWII lasted about as long as Catalonia's anarchist experiment in the 30's, before being similary deposed.  Didn't help falling out of favor with Uncle Joe.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on January 15, 2008, 04:51:40 PM
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."  - Thomas Jefferson

It’s spectacular to contemplate what frame of mind TJ must have been in when wrote that or how much he had to drink just before sitting down to write. He was a man of contradictions whose Presidency belied the revolutionary within him. He had become an ardent constitutionalist.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 15, 2008, 05:01:23 PM
  Dzimas: I agree, but in fairness to weezo, Kurlansky really did give the impression that the Czechs freely accepted Communism.

So that there's less confusion about it,  the reference comes from page 28 of the book:

     "Czechoslovakia is one country that became communist by democratic vote. Unfortunately, as often happens in a democracy, the politicians were lying. In 1946, Czechoslovakia, newly liberated by the Red Army, voted  for a communist government that promised there would be no no collectives established and that small businesses would not be nationalized. By 1948 the Communists had complete control of the country."

Now, you can parse the first sentence anyway you wish, but what it says is that  Czechoslovakia BECAME communist by a democratic vote. It doesn't say the people chose communism, but that the country became, emerged, developed into a communist country as a result of a democratic process. That's true as far as it goes, but as Dzimas points out 30% a majority does not make---nor does 38%. No matter how you cut it at least 62% of the Czech people voted for other alternatives. Being a Parliamentary System, what happened was that a coalition government was formed as there was no majority party in the legislature. This government was dominated by Communists coming out of two Czech Communist Parties. Then they bored in and by 1948, it was all over for the Czechs.

So I take Kurlansky's statement at face value: A carefully worded statement of truth---but hardly a statement declaring the Czechoslovak people as choosing Communism.

Weezo: My apology for not picking up the statement as I should have. I concentrated heavily on the period around 1968 instead of 1946.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 15, 2008, 05:09:16 PM
Clark: Your faster than a speeding bullet-----Thanks, that's the quote I was just about to look up. 

Quote
It’s spectacular to contemplate what frame of mind TJ must have been in when wrote that or how much he had to drink just before sitting down to write. He was a man of contradictions whose Presidency belied the revolutionary within him. He had become an ardent constitutionalist.

Note: there is no reference on his tombstone of his Presidency. I think he regretted his violations of principle. Jefferson was a very complicated man. I don't think anybody can truly "understand" him. As you put it, he was a man of contradictions--highly principled, he could also be highly pragmatic when it thought it suited either his purposes  or the nations. He was trulyan individual who could very readily hold two very contradictory thoughts in his head at the same time and be confortable with both. Whether he acted on principle or pragmatism was determined, I think, on what he thought best at the moment.

(I love your remark that it may have depended on how much he had to drink before he sat down).


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 15, 2008, 05:13:49 PM
Dzimas: Thanks for the CUBAN READER link. I ordered it,so I should have it in about a week.....Hopefully it'll give me some balance on the subject...


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 15, 2008, 05:42:21 PM
Undoubted, Jefferson became an "ardent constitutionalist" as compared to his more revolutionary spirit before he took on the mantle of the presidency. Yet, as president, he made a huge jump forward in the practice of the national government and the power of a federal system, when he jumped on the opportunity to buy Louisiana and stretch American dominion all the way to the Pacific Ocean. Of course, he bought it from France rather than from the Natives who actually owned it, but what's a bit of European business mukking up the lives of the Natives. So, I would be quite reluctant to consider TJ an "ardent" constitionalist. Like many others who would follow him, he chose his issues to push the limits and see what happens.

Bob, you found the quote in 1968 that had stuck in my mind but I was going to have to go back and find it. One thing about getting old is getting that memory that used to be so dependable to kick in every now and then when I've stepped out on a limb.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 15, 2008, 06:41:15 PM
weezo,
Wait until you find out that these forums are the only thing keeping the ability to put thoughts in methodical order ( and how to make the best use of memory prompters available to you on line) are all that is keeping us senior citizens in shape. Of courses our bodies suffer concomitant neglect.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on January 15, 2008, 06:58:48 PM
weezo: "Yet, as president, he made a huge jump forward in the practice of the national government and the power of a federal system."

That’s precisely what I meant when I described him as an ardent constitutionalist. He did not hesitate to use executive power under the Constitution to strengthen the office of President. Some argue that he to some extent abandoned earlier principles. The way I see it is that as the nation TJ helped midwife changed and grew, he changed and grew with it. Here was a President who despite bitter clashes with Adams and Hamilton sounded a unifying theme upon taking office saying, “We are all republicans – we are all federalists.”

I believe that's how he truly saw it.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 15, 2008, 07:18:41 PM
Clark,

But, the constitution did not give the federal gov the power to make such a purchase for the whole country. Since purchase of land was not specifically given to th feds, it reverted to the states. What state was in a position to make such a purchase? But, the precedent was set, and it carried over to the Native Lands which could then only be purchased by the feds not by the states. Either way, the Natives lost their valuable land in exchange for a drunken spree.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 15, 2008, 08:42:57 PM
 International Law and procedure going back to Grotius gives a nation the right to expand by conquering, possession or purchase. It's considered an inherent power of the Nation.

Jefferson, was a "strict constructionist" and was acutely aware and concerned with the Constitutional  problem and spent much time trying to draft an Amendment  to authorize the purchase----but Madison, his Secretary of State (and Father of the Constitution) advised against it on the ground that it would take too long and Napoleon might change his mind while we debated the issue.

It seemed both "strict constructionists" became very pragmatic at that point, deciding to go forward for the good of the nation.

If you want to understand Jefferson, look at what he does, not at what he says. Then try and figure out whether he's being hypocritical or pragmatic. Historians have been wrestling with that one for over 200 years.

Jefferson's original idea for Louisiana was to reserve a huge part of Upper Lousiana(above what is now Iowa) as a permanent space for the American Indian--not a separate state or a reservation, but as their lands. Needless to say, nobody listened. So don't blame Jefferson for being  a son of a bitch regarding Indian rights. He was much more pragmatic than most of his contemporaries.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on January 15, 2008, 09:11:59 PM
Excuse my flippant remarks of last night about Columbia--I had forgotten how the matter ended and was reminded when I finished the chapter, not comic at all.

Am now reading about the French. I do recall a to-do about the Jean Jacques Servan Schreiber book (The American Challenge = Engl. title), but never read it and had no idea how prescient it was, such as about personal computers, even. 

Once again, I'm surprised that there was an issue of coed dorms--can't imagine why I thought French students/universities, etc. would have been beyond such almost-Puritan strictures.  Seems I still have some stereotypes to be tossed, but before I do, here's a joke based on same:

3 French boys walking down the street (no rueful comments, please) pass an open window. 8-year-old looks in to see man & woman in flagrante, asks his 10-year-old companion what they are doing.  "Making love" replies the 10-year-old, "Badly" adds the 12-year old. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 15, 2008, 09:48:58 PM
Bob,

I have read much of what Jefferson wrote, and much about what he did. He was indeed a complex man. But, in general I like him. I've written a story about the LA Purchase: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/books/History/Louisiana.html  ... it was one of my first stories, so may not be as good as later ones.

Regarding Jefferson's private life, when I first read the theories that he diddled his maid, my initial reaction was: "So, he's a man and a Virginian - what else would have happened." and women from other parts of the country say that being a Virginian makes absolutely no never mind. Of course the white descendents of Jefferson insist that because he wrote beautifully he couldn't have done such a thing! I laugh every time the issue comes up on the Va History List. Some are terrified that if they dig up the poor man, they will find out it is all true, so they are quick to point out that it would "dessecrate" the man to do so.

Jefferson may have had it in mind to give the most northern and coldest area to the Native Americans, but, think about it. Would you be happy if you were thrown out of your comfy home, left behind your half-grown crops, and had to move to Siberia?

I'm not sure, but I think Jefferson was named as one of the American leaders who continued the traditions of  dispossessing the Indians in "The Divided Ground" by Alan Taylor, which I set aside to read 1968. I so appreciate those on this forum who introduced me to both Mark Kurlansky and Alan Taylor. Every time I get a new book by these guys, I have a really good read in hand.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 16, 2008, 01:52:35 PM
Following was in my mailbox from an education list. It refers back to the student campus revolts back in the 60's.

Chronicle of Higher Education
Jan. 15, 08


Pope Cancels University Visit in Wake of Protests
Rome — Pope Benedict XVI, who got a firsthand look at sometimes-violent student activism as a German university professor in the late 1960s, evidently has no wish to repeat the experience.

After some 50 students at the University of Rome La Sapienza briefly occupied the rector’s office today to protest the pope’s scheduled appearance at the university, the Vatican announced that Benedict would not be coming after all.

“Following the widely noted vicissitudes of recent days … it was considered opportune to postpone the event,” the Vatican said in a statement quoted by the Italian news agency ANSA. The statement added that the pope would send the text of the speech that he had planned to deliver in person.

The pope had been scheduled to address a gathering of faculty members and students this Thursday at ceremonies marking the opening of the university’s academic year.

But over the weekend, a group of more than 60 La Sapienza faculty members wrote to the university’s rector objecting to Benedict’s presence, citing words from a 1990 lecture in which he seemed to justify the Vatican’s condemnation of the astronomer Galileo Galilei in the 17th century.

“In the name of the secularity of science, we hope that this incongruous event can still be canceled,” the professors wrote.

On Monday student protesters at the university began a planned four days of demonstrations. A variety of outside groups, including labor unions and the Italian Movement of Transsexuals, had also planned to protest Benedict’s appearance on Thursday.

“I am sincerely very regretful,” said Italy’s higher-education minister, Fabio Mussi, when informed of the pope’s decision. “The university is a place that should welcome, not repel.”

La Sapienza, which claims to be the largest university in Europe, has a student body of some 160,000. —Francis X. Rocca




Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 16, 2008, 03:03:57 PM
Interesting all these books that focus on a specific year.  Some time ago we read Grand Expectations by James Patterson in American History, which covered the era from 1945-1971.  A lot of focus of foreign policy issues, including the Cold War, Vietnam War and Cuba.  I thought he summed up the volatile era pretty well.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on January 16, 2008, 03:56:24 PM
Interesting all these books that focus on a specific year.  Some time ago we read Grand Expectations by James Patterson in American History, which covered the era from 1945-1971.  A lot of focus of foreign policy issues, including the Cold War, Vietnam War and Cuba.  I thought he summed up the volatile era pretty well.

I noticed when shopping for books online recently that there is also a book entitled "1967".


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 16, 2008, 06:35:27 PM
desdemona222, well, as a fellow-Italian, you probably know that La
Sapienza means Wisdom or Learning in the Italian language.  Pope Benedict was probably Wise not to attend. It could be something as simple as avoiding agitation,agita or excess enthusiasm engendered by crowds of people, overexcitement bad on the heart at certain times of year, and I keep hearing that latter day Mussolini fascisti are on the rise again but can't check it out with any friends at the moment.

I particularly like the Galileo Galilei argument as the rationale; I therefore have to  chalk it up on the blackboard as some kind of a similar thing should El Presidente step off of his hop and a jump personal plane from Washington,D.C in less than half hour and then do a motorcade to Elizabethtown where the students would come out to greet him with little red pendants on canes to ask for their old anthropology and evolution class back  instead of the locally approved version. The times they are a changing.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 16, 2008, 10:10:38 PM
Maddie,

You may like the book I started when I finished 1968. It is by Mark Kurllansky (again), called "A Chosen Few - The Resurrection of European Jewry". It takes a look at the decimation of the Jewish population in Europe since the Holocaust, and how it rebuilt itself in some areas and not in others.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 16, 2008, 10:47:39 PM
I knew that name was familiar from somewhere.  Nowadays I concentrate more on the non-European Jews; the Sephardim. You see, my nieces, and nephew speak and were literate in three language by around age 5-7 or,pre-school,kindergarten age,Hebrew,Farsi,and English.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on January 17, 2008, 12:12:55 AM
Thanks for that rec, dzimas.  The White Album is up next on my TBR but it seems like that one could fill many a knowledge gap.

Re recent talk about Czechoslovakia, imdb.com has this offering  http://imdb.com/title/tt0064200/ for 50 years of Czech history ending in, you guessed it.

Actually, I was trying to look up movies made in '68 but couldn't figure out how to run a list of same,  Any help doing that would be much appreciated--or should I ask in Movies?  Can someone who has finished the book
say if there's a section on movies?  TIA if so.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 17, 2008, 01:48:09 AM
Thanks for that rec, dzimas.  The White Album is up next on my TBR but it seems like that one could fill many a knowledge gap.

Re recent talk about Czechoslovakia, imdb.com has this offering  http://imdb.com/title/tt0064200/ for 50 years of Czech history ending in, you guessed it.

Actually, I was trying to look up movies made in '68 but couldn't figure out how to run a list of same,  Any help doing that would be much appreciated--or should I ask in Movies?  Can someone who has finished the book
say if there's a section on movies?  TIA if so.

Movies from that era include Milos Foreman's Fireman's Ball and Loves of a Blonde, and Jiri Menzel's Closely Watched Trains.  More recently, Kolya is absolutely wonderful, and of course there is The Unbearable Lightness of Being, based on Milan Kundera's book, both set during the time of the Soviet occupation.

This might aid you in your search, NYT,

http://www.expats.cz/prague/article/prague-entertainment/czech-new-wave/


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on January 17, 2008, 10:11:01 AM
Thanks for that rec, dzimas.  The White Album is up next on my TBR but it seems like that one could fill many a knowledge gap.

Re recent talk about Czechoslovakia, imdb.com has this offering  http://imdb.com/title/tt0064200/ for 50 years of Czech history ending in, you guessed it.

Actually, I was trying to look up movies made in '68 but couldn't figure out how to run a list of same,  Any help doing that would be much appreciated--or should I ask in Movies?  Can someone who has finished the book
say if there's a section on movies?  TIA if so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_in_film


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 17, 2008, 10:17:36 AM
Maddie,

Got into a chapter on the Sephardic Jews who were floating around Europe considered "Portuguese", until later in the war, at which time they were put in the camps with the other Jews and deprived of life. Kurlansky defines Sephardic Jews as the Spanish Jews expelled from Spain about the time America was being "discovered".


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 17, 2008, 11:48:53 AM
Sephardic Jews did seem to originate from Spain (the term anyway), but they date their presence on the Iberian peninsula to King Solomon's time (c.965-930 B.C.E.).  Their "golden age" was under Moorish rule.  They didn't fair so well under Christian rule.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on January 17, 2008, 03:43:28 PM
Sephardic Jews did seem to originate from Spain (the term anyway), but they date their presence on the Iberian peninsula to King Solomon's time (c.965-930 B.C.E.).  Their "golden age" was under Moorish rule.  They didn't fair so well under Christian rule.

Hmmm - interesting.  I thought Sephardic Jews were Jews with the physical appearance of Israelis (or Middle Easterners), as opposed to Ashkinasi (sp?), who are European Jews and who are not necessarily dark, etc.  That's what a Jewish girlfriend of mine told me in college.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 17, 2008, 09:55:26 PM
Those are a few of the earlier examples historically of the Sephardim who came to the Iberian Peninsula along with the "others", those Berbers, and Muslims who together created the Golden Age.  More recently, they left the  Iranian and Iraq location by the waters of Babylon of their ancestors and relocated to the poverty of the sands of Israel, gradually but surely, since their lives were threatened. From there on, California became their location of choice.  Favored field of study and profession: doctor of Medicine; otherwise almost any other socially conscious occupation that will be contributive of  value and peace is more than likely.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on January 17, 2008, 11:45:59 PM
Another great site to explore, thanks much dzimas--only saw 2 of the films you mention but have followed Forman's work here.

Am wondering which of the characters in 1968 I'd most like to time-travel and meet as they were then.  Cohn-Bendit is current front-runner, but have 1/2 the book to go. 



Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on January 17, 2008, 11:49:58 PM
Another Czech (among other things) I have long admired, enjoyed the work of, etc. is this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Stoppard

What an amazing talent.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 18, 2008, 02:01:54 AM
Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead, is the best production of Hamlet that you could ever imagine.  It is the kind of film that you want to put on to your tv on a quiet Sunday afternoon when there is lots of snow and you can just stay warm by laughing yourself silly at Gary Oldman(and who is the other guy?) putting you into stitches.

I hadn't thought of it before this book:1968; but, yes, this play/film owes its success to the satirical climate  created by the political changes and risks of that period.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 18, 2008, 04:17:56 AM
I got the sense that Stoppard was heavily influenced by Waiting for Godot in that play, not that it takes anything away from what was a very witty play.  I liked The Real Thing very much,

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51R2TC056HL._AA240_.jpg)

I didn't know he was Czech.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 18, 2008, 04:19:59 AM
Speaking of interesting Czechs, Vilnius has a memorial to Frank Zappa,

(http://images.travelpod.com/users/susan_g/overland_-_05.1125132180.dscn0611.jpg)

If you ask why?  Just because.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on January 18, 2008, 04:09:13 PM
``Sephardic Jews did seem to originate from Spain``


Sepharad is  Hebrew  for the Latin name ''Hispania" (origin for the term ''Hispanic'') or the Castilian ''España''.

In the Old Testament, the prophet Obadiah predicted that Jews would be exiled from Jerusalem and exiled to Sepharad (Spain) in his book ch/verse 1:20. This began one generation after the death of Yashuah (called Jesus in the New Testament) in 70 AD.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 18, 2008, 04:13:26 PM
Thanks, thanatopsy, for clearing that up!

Now, for a trumpet blast for scholars of 1968, Dzimas in particular may like this insight before I have to haul it down into the pit at Campaign forum's "Happy Trails".

http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=72551


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on January 18, 2008, 11:11:56 PM
Just finished Chapter 13 in !968 on Prague Spring ("The Place To Be") and think I may have found something relative to what weezo was talking about a while back, on p. 247:

"A poll was taken from June 30 to July 10 asking people if they wanted the nation to continue with communism or turn to capitalism.  The Czechoslovakian population responded unequivocally--89 percent wanted to stay with communism.  Only 5 percent said they wanted capitalism.  Asked if they were satisfied with the work of the current government, a third of the respondents, 33 percent, said they were satisfied, and 54 percent said they were partially satisfied.  Only 7 percent said they were dissatisfied.  Dubcek, walking a precarious line with Moscow, was leading a happy, hopeful communist country at home."

... re Moscow considering its options re Czechoslovakia: "It had taken twelve years of difficult diplomacy to recover from the hostility and anger from the West caused by the 1956 invasion of Hungary. An invasion of Czechoslovakia would be even more difficult to explain, because Dubcek had gone to great lengths to show that he was not opposing the Soviet Union.  Also, the two nations had a long history of friendship, going back to the 1930s, whereas Hungary had  been a Nazi ally, and an enemy of the Soviets.  The Soviets liberated Czechoslovakia, and the Czechs were the one people who voluntarily voted in communism and welcomed an alliance with the Soviets. As the July poll showed, Czechoslovakia was a nation still committed to communism."

I have to admit I admired Dubcek's skill in tightrope walking...too bad the title of his autobio/memoir is Hope Dies Last--a bit off-putting.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on January 19, 2008, 12:12:19 AM
Heard this author on NPR today and the story seems fascinating: using Warsaw zoo to aid/rescue Jews in its Ghetto.

http://www.amazon.com/Zookeepers-Wife-War-Story/dp/0393061728/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200689231&sr=1-1



Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 19, 2008, 01:25:52 AM
This part of the review was hilarious,"the director of the Berlin Zoo, Lutz Heck, who wanted Jan's help in resurrecting extinct "pure-blooded species" in pursuit of Aryan perfection in the animal kingdom". Is this anything like I.D.? We seem to still have a problem with this way of thinking in 2008.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 21, 2008, 01:03:12 PM
                                                                                                    1968
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2243551,00.html

When hope faded in the streets of the East


Forty years ago, The Observer's Neal Ascherson reported on the brutal Soviet suppression of the Prague Spring, a time when hope briefly supplanted the tyranny of communism. Returning to the city, he finds that the remarkable events have left surprisingly little mark

 
 
 
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2243133,00.html
 
Prague Revisited
 
 
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/observer/gallery/2008/jan/17/1?picture=332107888
 
 1968: The year that changed history (14 pictures)
 
 
 
 
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/observermusic/2008/01/love_alone_again_or_status.html
 
1968 was all that
Classic clips from a vintage year in pop




Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 22, 2008, 05:12:49 AM
Recently, Lithuania commemorated January 13, 1991, known as the "winter war," when the country stood up to the Soviet Union, defending its independence that it had declared March 11, 1990, against an army of tanks that rolled into Vilnius and tried to take back the capital.  A dozen or more Lithuanians died in the confrontations.  It could have very well turned into another Prague 1968, but CNN quickly picked up on the story and gave it international attention, since they were all but shut out of the impending Persian Gulf War, which George H.W. Bush waged four days later.  Gorbacev had hoped that the Persian Gulf War would deflect attention away from his assault on Vilnius.  Seeing the widespread media attention and the fact that Lithuanians were not backing down to the tanks, he chose to withdraw, thus precipitating the fall of the Soviet Union, and providing the indelible image of a Lenin statue being pulled down in one of the city's squares.

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38480000/jpg/_38480789_lenin_ap300.jpg)

Interestingly enough, the US did not recognize Lithuania's independence until September, 1991, the same month the Soviet Union finally did.

The incident still carries with it much resonance in Lithuania.  A recent documentary captured the moment in gut-wrenching detail including showing the bodies of the dead.  The Soviet media tried to brush over the event but soon all the Soviet states were ready to break lose, including mother Russia.  Fortunately, history doesn't always repeat itself.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 22, 2008, 09:04:32 AM
Quote
The Soviets liberated Czechoslovakia, and the Czechs were the one people who voluntarily voted in communism and welcomed an alliance with the Soviets. As the July poll showed, Czechoslovakia was a nation still committed to communism.

Here is a wiki rundown of events between 1945-48 which seems to differ dramatically with the above account,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Czechoslovakia_(1945%E2%80%931948)

The Soviets loved to use the term liberation, including in the Baltic States, which they annexed into the CCCP after the war, following a vote of course.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 23, 2008, 04:18:54 AM
Apparently Thompson was reffering to '68 in this passage from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, which Johnny Depp marvelously delivered in the movie,

"There was no point in fighting -- on our side or theirs.  We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark -- the place where the wave finally broke and rolled back."


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 23, 2008, 10:49:38 AM
I read all those liner notes on Fear and Loathing....  And what Thompson had to say about how he wrote it, the decision on the method of writing it, and how close he was to not getting that done when walking out on the hotel bill;  as well as his rather accurate remarks on what would that be like and happen to you if you tried that "today", because I feel that anything he has to say (I  treat him as an immortal, now in the timeless zone)about writing is pertinent.

I recall that film as one of the funniest repulsive things that I've ever seen at the movies.

He also created a personal style, in his appearance, that was adopted by the more forward looking young men of the Sixties into the Eighties at about which time the boom came down and disheartened them in mid-career.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 23, 2008, 08:28:59 PM
Quote
The democratic elements, led by President Edvard Beneš, hoped the Soviet Union would allow Czechoslovakia the freedom to choose its own form of government and aspired to a Czechoslovakia that would act as a bridge between East and West. Communists secured strong representation in the popularly elected National Committees, the new organs of local administration. In the May 1946 election, the KS? won in the Czech part of the country (40.17%), and the anti-Communist Democratic Party won in Slovakia (62%). In sum, however, the KS? won a plurality of 38 percent of the vote at countrywide level. Edvard Beneš continued as president of the republic. The Communist leader Klement Gottwald became prime minister. Most important, although the communists held only a minority of portfolios, they were able to gain control over all key ministries (Ministry of the Interior etc. ).

I'm inclined to agree with you---I think Kurlansky miscronstrued or misinterpreted what went on. If Czechoslovakia had an American style government the Communists would have "freely chosen" them to govern. But this was a Parliamentary form of government which allowed them to form a government which included by the two Communist Parties. The Communist Party received 38% of the national vote. However, when it came time to form a government, they were joined by the next largest Marxist Party, giving the combination of the two parties an absolute majority in the Parliament. A Communist formed a government in which 9 of 26 seats were held by his party--3 other seats were held by the other Marxist Party, while the Communist Prime Minister held the thirteenth vote.  The difficulty with the other other Marxist Party (The Social Democrats) was that they didn't hold to the agreement to hold to the Communist line and bolted by November 1947, causing  the series of events which led to the resignation of the government and the eventual takeover of Czechoslovakia by the Soviet Union in 1968.

A majority of Czechoslovakia never "freely chose" Communism. They chose a sufficient # of Chech and Slovak  Parliamentarians to form a legitimate govenment, in co-operation with the another Marxist Party. They had not enough seats to form a government on their own. The held 114 of 300 seats--that's what the Chech and Slovak people elected.... and when the secondary party to the coalition withdrew it's effective support, choosing not to tow the line---the Chech Communist Party began a series of maneuvers to destroy democracy in the country under guise of continuing it, forcing Benes to accept their "new coalition" or face a Soviet Invasion.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 23, 2008, 08:30:51 PM
I assume we're in a fullscale discussion of 1968?

A good book on details of Czechoslovakia  is Tad Szulc's CZECHOSLOVAKIA SINCE WORLD WAR II


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 23, 2008, 08:33:57 PM
And, speaking of which:

Today it was announced that this country is deciding whether to send troops into Pakistan--maybe not combat troop--but at least troops to train the Pakistani Army, which seems not to be doing so well with the enemy. Seems to me old man Eisenhower had the same idea (Advisors he called them) around 1958 when he sent a small passel of men to a place called Vietnam....

Do we ever learn?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 23, 2008, 09:41:27 PM
Bob,

No, I don't think we learn. It's not enough we're in a quagmire in Iraq, now we have to take on Pakistan also?

Remind of the song "Where have all the flowers gone", which end with When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on January 24, 2008, 12:09:08 PM
Do we ever learn?

What exactly is it that we’re supposed to have learned?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 24, 2008, 01:22:00 PM
Clark,

In the simplist words: Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Expanded more: Thou shalt not make war until and unless YOU are attacked. Originally, HO Chi Minh was a nationalist, and by waging war, we forced him into a close relationship to communism. In Iraq, we have succeeded in giving the "terrorists" a reason to defend themselves against our making their part of the world a disaster area. How often do we have to waste our men and women to accomplish nothing but the destruction of regions of the world before we learn to mind our own p's and q's and let our young people grow into useful adults?



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 24, 2008, 01:47:53 PM
I don't know that we can use the sixth commandment as a statement on war unless we stop reading Exodus right at Chapter 20.  Seems to me that the Israelites didn't interpret it that way at all.

Not saying I'm an advocate of war, but for a statement of anti-war, there needs to be a more philosophically sound articulation (beyond the idea of "Thou Shalt not Kill)  of the idea....what makes human life valuable, are some lives worth more than others, etc.  And the philosophy must extend beyond the basic  war no war into things like use of land, resources, money.  For instance, is it worse to wage war or to buy products from a company that underpays and mistreats its employees?  Should people continue to buy diamond engagement rings?  What about purchasing products made by third world countries?  or buying GM or Ford cars that have parts outsourced in Mexico?  Next step...what if you can only afford products manufactured by underpaid workers in Third World countries?  Which takes us back to the questions of whose well-being is more important...  For sheer scale, war is of course more destructive, but percentage only applies to the misfortunes of others. 

War is not really about killing, rather about justice.  And since people, being what they are, never feel that they have gotten their fair share of the pie, there will always be war.  There is also the idea that if people really were anti-war, we would have found some way to avoid it by this time in the history of humankind. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on January 24, 2008, 03:08:26 PM
Lhoffman,

Very thought-provoking post. Of course, I believe in Thou shalt not kill. But we live in a world where you may very well have to at times. What I was alluding to with my question is that there is folly at times in trying to rigidly apply the lessons of the past to present situations. That’s how we got quagmired in Vietnam. The thinking back then was that they should have stopped Hitler in Munich. We mustn’t make that mistake again. That’s what drove our Cold War thinking. Fight them over there before we find ourselves fighting them at home. The lessons of World War II didn’t quite fit but we tried to tailor them to 1964.

We don’t always repeat the mistakes of the past. But we do manage to make a whole bunch of new ones every time. I’m at a loss to argue what our role should be in regard to the current situation in Pakistan.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 24, 2008, 03:24:50 PM
Caclark..."the lessons of World War II"....People have short memories.  Instead of looking back to the lessons to be learned in the study of Ancient Greek or Roman history, we look to lessons learned in the last few decades (and generally related to our own history rather than with a world perspective). 

I'm not certain, but it seems to me that this kind of thinking is more prevalent in Western culture than in the Middle East.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 24, 2008, 03:50:19 PM
Laurie,

I am well aware that the Bible makes a general fuss in favor of some wars, if they are judged to be sanctioned "by God". I am not sure that God sanctions any wars, despite the stories in the bible that contradict that thought. That is perhaps why I tend to think of the Bible as just another book of literature and history rather than the "holy word of God". If it is the "word of God", the Great One contradicts himself all too often.

My choice of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" was made with a wry smile that couldn't be put into words, since that is the only part of the bible that the anti-abortionists can use to deny choice to wormen how to use their own god-given bodies. If it can be used to condemn freedom of choice, it should be just as good a quote to condemn war. It always amuses me that those opposed to women making choices have no other support in the Bible, in spite of the fact that abortion was practiced in Jesus' time.

It is interesting that the bible supports war, if it favors The Chosen People, even when cruelty and immoral behavior is involved. I forget which "enemy" the Jews were fighting when they told the enemy that if they were all circumcised, they would be left in peace, only to attack and slaughter them on the painful third day following the mass circumcisions. Interesting how, acccording to the "word of God" this betrayal of their promise of peace was celebrated rather than condemned.

But, I do not believe that God sanctions the killing of non-combatants. It is interesting in my readings of the Native Americans that when they waged war, it was typically between warriers and in the event of victory, women and children weren't slaughtered, but were adopted by the conquering tribe. The Natives learned from the Europeans that war was best waged by slaughtering women and children, and they applied the lesson well.







Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 24, 2008, 04:00:12 PM
A Chose Few .... by Mark Kurlansky

I'm about half-way through this book and thinking that this book would have been banned in the US during the cold war. Not only does it point out that the Jews were badly treated by Europeans other than the Nazi's but that it was the Communists who put an end to anti-semitism in Eastern Europe. According the the author, smart Jews joined the Communist party where they were given freedoms, education, and a chance for advancement, all of which were denied by non-communists of the same nationalities.

Oh, Maddie, there is more about the Sephardic Jews in the book. In the chapter I was reading last night, it discussed the Algerian Jews returning to France after France freed Algeria to govern itself, and the first act was to try to kill off the Algerian Jews. The Algerian Jews were Sephardic, and they had a hard time understanding the Ashkanazi Jews of Europe who had strayed broadly from the dietary and other commands of Jewry. The Ashkanazi Jews in Poland and other Eastern countries were even eating pork on a regular basis, which did not sit well with the Sephardic Jews.

Although I will probably finish the book before most of you could get it, I would suggest the group consider reading A Chose Few at some point. Kurlansky, perhaps because he is a Polish Jew, and perhaps grew up under communism, has a very different take on communism and what happened during the cold war than is generally told on this side of The Big Puddle.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 24, 2008, 04:06:33 PM
Anne...that was exactly my point.  Christians and non-Christians alike have a way of using the Bible when it suits their purpose and dismissing it when it doesn't.  Your response to Clark's question may have been made with a wry smile, but then you elaborated on it.  No sense of humor, rather an elaboration of your own thinking on the matter.  Why not quote Shakespeare?  He had plenty to say on the matter or war and of human nature.   

The circumcision story you referred to wasn't related to a war or battle, but to retribution.  In the Joseph saga, the brothers' sister Dinah is either kidnapped or wed by a prince of a nearby city after Jacob has refused permission.  The brothers convince the rulers of the city that the only way to make things right is for the males in the city to undergo circumcision.  After the ceremony, the brothers storm the city, slaughter many of its citizens and reclaim Dinah. 

Some of the stories in the Bible teach us how NOT to live....


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 24, 2008, 05:14:52 PM
Laurie,

Sorry about forgetting the origin of the circumcision story. By the time I was old enough to know what circumcision involved, I thought it was a pretty sick trick to play.

You may have a point that sometimes the bible shows how not to live, but there are so many who insist it is the "way" to be followed.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 24, 2008, 06:19:54 PM
Anne....I always wondered how they went about checking to see who was circumsized and who was not. :D  (People absolutely hate it when I participate in their Bible studies as I tend to be a bit lacking in the reverence department....but c'mon....who hasn't asked these questions.)

But, your comment on the sixth commandment came about as a result of the question "What lessons have we learned?"  Kurlansky touches on this but then seems to shy away in his comments on the French attitude toward Americans in Viet Nam.  The French were none too keen and in light of WWII, the question becomes "why?".  It's doubtful that the French took any lessons on the pitfalls of colonialism from WWII, even though they weren't thrilled with the idea of becoming a German "colony."  (They are still dealing with the after effects of Algeria today.)  Were they perhaps worried that the Americans would one-up them in Viet Nam?  The main lesson of history is one that is often missed, that historical events (positive and negative) in general proceed as an answer to the question, "what's in it for me?". 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on January 24, 2008, 07:06:38 PM
The story presupposes that three days after undergoing a minor surgical procedure, the entire male population of the town were too impaired to even collectively defend themselves against just two men. I'm not enough of a medical authority to assess the likelihood of that. But it is remarkable that the ancient Hebrews would preserve from generation to generation, an account that depicts their ancestors in such a treacherous light. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on January 24, 2008, 07:19:45 PM
well, the other thing is, why wait three days?  It's a weird little story any way you "slice" it.  ;)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on January 24, 2008, 09:56:14 PM
(That's why I come back to this forum even while giving most of Elba a pass.  You just never know what's gonna turn up next.)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 25, 2008, 12:19:51 AM
weezo,re:#468

Yes, I had an Jewish friend from Soviet Russia, born at Linz,Austria which made him Ashkenazic but I seldom think of the differentiations. For instance, he was an extremely fair, blond, with the body type and facial/head structure of Boris Pasternak. Most others, American born friends, of Russian extraction vary widely, from extremely fair skinned, black haired, who in Winter become ruddy cheeked with high vivacious coloring suitable to their personality as well; strongly resembling the lighter skinned Afghanis who are their neighbors.

Their habits and customs are strongly formed by where they have lived. For instance, one of the "girls", a young woman, in Western Europe forum was an immigrant from Europe more recently(like many who came out of Russia before or close in time to the 1980s and had no religious experience of being Jewish because they had been born in the Soviet era. They were re-educated as Jews, by the concerted effort of American Jewish communities who were their sponsors,) anyway this young woman working in California had come through the UK on her way here and married a Brit. But what I was originally going to say was that her Russian family was both Jewish and Catholic, whether or not Russian Orthodox is another matter, never completely clarified this and she insisted there was no inconsistency in their life-style at home either over there or here. 

Of course, it is important to understand that these are not the Jews of the Eastern European pograms of the late 19th.century or early 20th, at least they are not their descendents.  These are entirely Jews saved by the Russians in the dichotomy between Nazism and Communism. Quite often they have "intermarried" because they were not religiously Jewish when living among the Soviet population.

Yet a similar situation exists currently in the US among people who have one American non-Jewish parent and one Sephardic parent displaced from Iran to Israel to the US.  They are very unlikely to have the same lifestyle and religious practice of any one of those places.

Likewise, when speaking of Algerian Jews.  I had a friend whose parents raised her in Algiers, when they left Paris immediately ahead of the German Occupation, went through to Nice but would not stay because one could not predict the Vichy government would be consistent positive or negative and therefore it was safer to go into North Africa, until at some point after the Allied Liberation the  shift began in Algerian self-identity, the French suppression of "Arabs", so called, led to insurrection.

Having encountered the French-Canadian veterans of Foreign Wars, while in Montreal, having their morning breakfast get-togethers in the bistro, with their square jaws and their resonant voices, and knowing their history, I have no doubt that some of the methods and policy of our present administration was adapted from their experience.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 26, 2008, 07:38:45 PM
nytemp:

I agree----how we went from Czechoslovakia  to Circumcision is beyond me, but I love it--it shows a certain freedom we all need to exercise now and again.

I'm reading 1968, American Prometheous and The Great Upheaval all at the same time. One of these days, by Monday, hopefully, I'll be down to reading just one at a time.

In the meanwhile 1968 brings up particular memories in that early on Kurlansky points out at the beginning of the year LBJ was a clear favorite in the Polls, with Nelson Rockefeller as the only guy seemingly able to best him in November. Although circumstances are different now, we ought to keep this in mind as we go through the Primary Selections. I just heard the projection regarding South Carolina--a clear Obama win. Nobody could have told anybody, not even Martin Luther King in 1968, that in 40 years a black candidate for the nomination, unconnected with the Civil Rights movement and whose father hailed from Africa, could clearly win the Democratic nomination for President in South Carolina. No pun intended, but the response would have been "Dream on, brother--Dream on!!!

Like it or not its a history making day.

Getting back to 1968, I was early getting on the Dump Johnson bandwagon, joining Allard Lowenstein in pushing for and alternative candidate. Allard wanted RFK. RFK refused. The movement settled on Clean Gene McCarthy and we were off and running. RFK then stabbed us in the back when it became aparrent LBJ could be stopped and he announced his candidacy....Although I joined his campaign as the McCarthy effort collapsed, I was not a happy man...but I learned rather quickly to like RFK and worked on his behalf in the New Jersey Primary.It was a most interesting year politically--I went from McCarthy to RFK to HHH, all in about 4 months....



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on January 26, 2008, 07:44:17 PM
Speaking of which, when in B&N this morning, I witnessed the kick off of the Barak Obama Campaign in Luzerne County Pennsylvania. There were the 5 potential delegates from the County with their blank petitions getting their instructions on how to approach registered Democrats. Three were rather young, one was middle aged, one older....Four hours later they returned with 180 signatures combined. Not bad for a start. I imagine the othe candidates were doing the same thing.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 26, 2008, 08:46:18 PM
Unrelated to our reading, I just got a copy of Victory At Sea, a collection of all the episodes. As soon as hubby put it in the machine and the music came up, I knew what was on. I remember the show was watched regularly when I was growing up. I also remember that my father, who served in the Pacific, was in one of the episodes, one of the bored soldiers sailing home (I think). So I will be looking to see if I can find him.

It was interesting to watch the episode on Pearl Harbor without hearing mention of the fact known now, but now when the show was made, that our folks knew the attack was coming and let it come. Or so they say.

Maddie, there is quite a bit about the Sephardim as I get further in the book "A Chosen Few". Seems that in France, there was a lot of intermarriage between the Azkahazic and Sephardic Jews which was not quite acceptable to their parents.

I am up at the point where the Eastern Bloc is detatching from the Soviet Union, and low and behold, without the Soviets preventing it, it is back to anti-semitism and a rise in nazi-ism all over again in Poland and Germany. The Jews, it seems, were more willing than the Catholics to give up their religious practice for communism, and when communism went down, the old problems came right back up.

It is quite interesting to see the comments of the American Jews who first visited the Eastern Bloc countries and found the religion in shambles, and how they tried to help their brothers remember who and what they were. Some of the imported Rabbi's were quite colorful.
But I am getting a distinct impression that many of the Eastern Europeans Jews preferred being good communists to practicing Jews.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 26, 2008, 09:43:46 PM
weezo, I don't know how I did it but instead of doing what I should have learned from experience to write on a separate area and not on the post, I inadvertently hit something and erased everything that I had been writing about how this difference in culture was demonstrated in US  as well as France and soon after the Civil War for the next half century.

I'll try for it again tomorrow; I make that mistake when I'm tired.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 26, 2008, 10:04:52 PM
Maddie,

I know what you mean about being tired and doing what you don't intend.

I suspect you are going to mention the effect the KKK had on the nation in their persecution of blacks, Jews, and Catholics. There was a point of that made in the Roots II Miniseries (can't remember exact name) that I watched a few months ago. The blacks were shocked that the KKK burned out a Jew since they considered him a "white man" and not to be persecuted by these evil-doers. But, I will be interested in how that played out in the north until the turn of the century, and what was done to reverse it. At least from Kurlansky's perspective, the American Jews were, after WWII, free to live their lives as Jews both as to worship and to diet. I remember wondering, as a child, when I read food packages without fail, why the word "kosher" appeared on so many food labels. The term "kosher" was and is used to indicate something is as it should be, so it puzzled me but not enough to find out what it meant. Kurlansky mentions in the book that gentiles often preferred to buy "kosher" food when it became available, because they believed it was the "best" food. He mentions that because kosher food was more expensive, the non-Jews were often the more reliable customers for this food.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 27, 2008, 05:12:37 PM
weezo,

Kosher is actually the separation from the dairy diet and the meat diet categorically, with pareve as the category that can be used with either milchag or fleishag. I've had to plan kitchens for that with Polish friends who wanted to welcome people immigrating from Israel.

But here is what I actually was thinking of:

http://genealogy.metastudies.net/ZDocs/Stories/stories02.html

This is one family, the Cassirer, I read this one night in fascination back when I first signed up for membership in these forums, and then told desdemona222 my impressions in the Non-Fiction forum in those days when nobody posted there.

I think that you will find their story interesting, although it may take quite a long time reading but it will provide lots of insight.

As you go down the  page, about 3/4's of the way through you will notice the name Moritz Cassirer-- and,
For More on the Story of Moritz and his descendents, click here.)

from there, Look at David's cousin Heiner(later Henry) Cassirer

and the founding of Odenwaldschule, click link for  description by Klaus Mann, the son of Thomas Mann

Bottom of page: The Breslau Generation    Here you will fine Fritz Leopold Cassirer (who looks like Adrien Brody)

There are many other links there on their  contributions to the arts,science,etc.  Links for Daughters, and the Dispersed Generation.    About half way down that latter, you will  see the story of the little girl hidden by gypsies in the Nederlands.

From their origins, you can see that the family moved from the East into Germany and westward to the US while  some survived and others did not survive the Shoah.

You remark had reminded me that similar less well-endowed families came to the Midwest of the US and sewed uniforms on contracts for the Civil War.  They had raised capital when arriving in North American and opened business because they were Urban Jews of the mercantile class in Germany.  When the next wave of immigration during the pogroms in Eastern Europe occurred and peasant Shtetl Jews came  to the Midwest, they lived in a separate part of town with their own synagogues instead of the Jewish Community Center and suburban community temples. There cultures were different from each other, the Eastern Shtetl Jew dressing differently, ate differently; and even I.B. Singer, and his brother who had lived as writers/journalists in urban Warsaw, arrived before the Thirties in New York and was perceptive about what he was leaving behind.

When I saw him and listened to his lecture in the Midwest, all the differences were already over but the period before I was born and perhaps even early in my life meant that many Jews of German origins were embarrassed by the arrival of their Eastern cousins, as often happens in all cultures and racial groups. So when the younger generation,the American born generation finally met each other, the parents and families were dead set against their intermarrying as you noted about the French Jews.  But they did, eventually marry and the families united with the arrival of grandchildren

I knew a woman of German Jewish origin but she traveled everywhere after acquiring wealth from her family realty investments, and because of that she was financially independent of her husband also of German Jewish origin but a simple pharmacist by comparison.  When the opportunity arose to sponsor Russians who had been a generation without religion or customs other than that of their Soviet liberators, Fanny dived into it by traveling, and then popped them into abodes from her real estate as close to the Jewish Community Center as possible where they came to take classes, attended social events, ate, learned how to get a job, etc. and were accepted into the community that was there before them. I wasn't surprised because I had seen the world of lower East Side New York's Jewish immigrants, the Yiddish theatre district, the Polish clinic, the first Jewish Community Centers with educational facilities  when they still looked as poverty stricken with cobblestone streets as the cities of Eastern Europe. As I'd mentioned to Harrie, that's where I ate my first pirogi for lunch while going to model for sculptor Chaim Gross.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 27, 2008, 05:33:49 PM
Let's see.

I are my first perogis at a covred dish socials at the swimming pool which membership was made up of Pa. Dutch, Polish and Italian folks. Sometimes the Polish women made galumpkis and perogis to supplement the pizza to sell at the concession stand. Washed down with good root beer, and followed by a slice of shoo fly pie. It was all good.

If you enjoy reading geneologies, you may enjoy reading a book by a friend, Anita Wills. It is called "Notes and Documents of Free Persons of Color - Four Hundred Years of An American Family's History". Anita spent her teenage years in Reading, but did not finish high schools. She could not afford an editor when she published her books, so it is a bit rough reading. But most informative and interesting. I think it includes the details on her father's surveillance by the authorities from McCarthy for the rest of his life,  because he had learned to speak Russian from his neighbors, and the authorities thought it unseemly that a black man would want to learn Russian just to have conversations with his neighbors.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 27, 2008, 06:16:37 PM
That is funny and pathetic at the same time. I just watched Shelby Steele, Republican, which I kind of figured from his having had a publisher named Hoover, otherwise he could be mistaken for a younger James Earl Jones without the  voice timbre, although he has that unusual skill of controling the house who attend his book discussions. He simply goes on to the next person and they are too polite to continue the conversation.  He is the latest to go after Barack Obama as "not real"; Shelby is, of course, "real".  I don't know what he quite thinks is wrong about "Transcending" racism. But, I'll let that be his problem.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 28, 2008, 04:12:54 AM
That is funny and pathetic at the same time. I just watched Shelby Steele, Republican, which I kind of figured from his having had a publisher named Hoover, otherwise he could be mistaken for a younger James Earl Jones without the  voice timbre, although he has that unusual skill of controling the house who attend his book discussions. He simply goes on to the next person and they are too polite to continue the conversation.  He is the latest to go after Barack Obama as "not real"; Shelby is, of course, "real".  I don't know what he quite thinks is wrong about "Transcending" racism. But, I'll let that be his problem.

Interesting to read George Will's response to Steele's book,

Steele has brilliantly dissected the intellectual perversities that present blacks as dependent victims, reduced to trading on their moral blackmail of whites who are eager to be blackmailed in exchange for absolution. But Steele radically misreads Obama, missing his emancipation from those perversities. Obama seems to understand America's race fatigue, the unbearable boredom occasioned by today's stale politics generally and by the perfunctory theatrics of race especially.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/01112008/profile2.html

Steele's book is already out of date, as so much has changed in the political landscape in regard to Obama since he penned this book.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on January 28, 2008, 05:44:49 AM
Dzimas, speaking of change . . . what's this I hear about Lithuania considering changing its name?

I'm starting a book by Modris Eksteins, Walking Since Daybreak, about the Baltic states, WWII, history as lived, remembered, told of, and much else.  Eksteins is a native Latvian. now professor of history at the University of Toronto at Scarborough.  The book has plucked my excitment wire.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 28, 2008, 07:13:03 AM
Dzimas, speaking of change . . . what's this I hear about Lithuania considering changing its name?

I'm starting a book by Modris Eksteins, Walking Since Daybreak, about the Baltic states, WWII, history as lived, remembered, told of, and much else.  Eksteins is a native Latvian. now professor of history at the University of Toranto at Scarborough.  The book has plucked my excitment wire.

First I heard about it, although here in Lithuania the country is known as Lietuva, first appearing in the Annals of Quedlinburg 1000 years ago come 2009.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 28, 2008, 11:49:42 AM
Dzimas,re:#484
"Steele's book is already out of date, as so much has changed in the political landscape in regard to Obama since he penned this book."

That was my feeling while listening to him.  A young black woman in the back of the room, who had been to the Iowa caucus as a worker (and as I've said several times because people had not noticed, Obama brought these people into the political process by his attentiveness to the "Rock the Vote" idea that younger people must be encouraged to vote; and this was before he asked Sen.Kennedy about whether he should run!)was almost capable of making him lose his concentration when she compared the participants at the caucus as more representative of transcending race  than those presently in the book store who had waited patiently for Shelby Steele to arrive.

This was true: majority of whites, two or three Asian women,maybe one or two blacks other than herself, one white woman willing to address him on equal terms;which, as I pointed out to my niece who was going into Colorado for a panel to counter racism, is difficult to do because I observed in any canvassing of blogs that the black intellectual male automatically relegates black women in the middle class professions as Lesbians as soon as they open their mouth once or twice indicating their equality to have and express an opinion. The men are there essentially having a cutting contest for first place best-educated independent, the rest of the pecking order follows behind.

I have to agree with George Wills, which has seldom been the case over the years, that Steele misreads Obama. I take it for granted that he has a political purpose that was shared by a number of African-American Republican males until sometime in the second Bush term when they knew he had just gone too far and that it threated their rights; they finally got it, recognized it for what it is, and they baled  immediately.
But, he also projects his own experience on to Obama which presupposes that Obama shares his own motivations; what he gets back is a reflection of himself, a mirroring (which is ironic since someone did ask him about Frantz Fanon but somehow he doesn't think this applies to himself; that was "colonial", he was raised in 20th.century America) and so he can't "read" Obama's position).


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on January 28, 2008, 12:09:15 PM
Dzimas, I read it while rummaging somewhere.  I don't remember where, now.  Google <lithuania considering name change> and you'll get an earful--even a bit in Al Jazeera, for goodness sakes.  It's all about trolling for tourists, mostly.

I don't know.  Li-thu-wain-e-ah, at five syllables, rolls off the tongue in a pleasing way.  To me, anyway.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 29, 2008, 03:29:54 AM
DNR, thanks for informing me on the name change issue.  Seems the parliament is actually considering shortening the English version of the name, but the German diminutive Litaun is not very appealling.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on January 29, 2008, 04:53:04 AM
Dzimas.  Lituan . . . YUCK.  I certainly hope the commision on name change doesn't do anything hasty.  Perhaps they should suspend activity while a poll is taken of REAL tourists asking them if they've got a problem with the name Lithuania as it is now.  They could conduct the poll over an extended period of time, catching tourists as they process through customs.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 29, 2008, 07:18:28 AM
DNR, I think the debate will die a quick death, but we were joking in the office that maybe they should change the name to Lita, the currency of Lithuania.  Has a nice feminine ring to it. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on January 29, 2008, 11:40:53 PM
weezo, this goes back to or, re:#481

re:#2572.but from Campaign Trail

"I am looking only at the fact the Jews were allowed to practice their lifestyle during communism which was again put in jeopardy when communism ended. And, it is according to a single source "A Chosen Few" by Mark Kurlanski."

 I'm not sure there is a Jewish lifestyle that you can put your finger on? Particularly was there a Jewish life style in the Soviet Union?  Perhaps you are defining it differently and I'm not understanding what you mean?

It was my understanding that Jews in the Soviet Union were living the Soviet lifestyle until the Soviet no longer functioned as before; but, they were free to go where ever as far as the Russians were concerned, kind of like the old American saying,"If you don't like it, go somewhere else, this is America and you are free to go..." well, not quite in reality.  It's very paternalistic in a negative way,"Patronizing" like those fathers who are so fatherly as to say to their offspring,"While you live under my roof, you do as I say.   When you are big enough to do what I do, then you can do what you want to do."

As Americans we take it for granted that this is being said to kids but when this is said to other adults, there seems to be a shortage of democracy in the family.  No, i don't go along with the program of the Patriarchal rule, one  will in the English-language version of a mitzvah (or duty),honor one's father and mother. But, as one of the Big Ten, it is just one of  more than several hundred mitzvah, laws or duties one performs as a religious Jew or law-abiding citizen what ever language he or she speaks.  I suspect the motivation for the kind of presidency we have been getting for going on eight unabated years arises from this absence of recognition of an actual democratic attitude in someone's first family which became so ingrained as normal that our president has been busting his keister to come out of this at the end, eventually all along the trip, as having succeeded in becoming a man and that will show him won't it.  Well, what if it doesn't?  What if by George, he has to face the music of not having accomplished that?

Here, I posted this in Campaign Trail but this might give you a good idea of what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPkBuQfZfFo



Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 29, 2008, 11:53:59 PM
Maddie,

Throughout the book, Kurlansky makes distinctions between those who are ethnic Jews, and follow a lifestyle the reflects it, such as living in Jewish communities, associating predominantly with Jews, dressing, wearing hat, long coats, peots, etc., from those who actually pray three times a day, naturally dovin and other movements when chanting, knowing the chants and what the mean, eating authentic kosher food, and walking to the synagogue rather than driving there. The anti-semitism that returned in Europe after the anti-nazi campaigns were eliminated made no distinction between ethnic Jews and those who were religious in their practice. If you looked Jewish, you got thrown bodily off the train. If you looked Jewish or had a Jewish name, you got beat up by the skin-heads.

I suggest you put the book on your list of things to read and you can understand how Kurlansky makes the distinction between the Jews who practiced their religion, and those who only displayed their ethnicity. I may not do it justice.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 30, 2008, 04:12:20 AM
Quote
"I am looking only at the fact the Jews were allowed to practice their lifestyle during communism which was again put in jeopardy when communism ended. And, it is according to a single source "A Chosen Few" by Mark Kurlanski."

Weezo, I guess I would have to read 1968 to check the validity of that comment by Kurlansky, but Jews were persecuted in the Soviet Union, as they were in Tsarist Russia,

The promises of the Russian Revolution of 1917 offered hope to the Jews that the injustices of the Tsarist period would end, and that a new period in the history of the Jewish people living in that area of the world would begin. With the passage of time, it became clear that these were hollow promises, and the communist successors to the Tsars began a systematic campaign to eradicate all religion, including Judaism. In 1952, Stalin had a number of leading Jewish cultural figures murdered. In early 1953, fifteen Jewish doctors were arrested in what became known as the "Doctors' Plot." Only Stalin's death, in March 1953, saved the doctors, who were subsequently released. Under Khrushchev a new campaign emerged to stamp out the Jewish religion and Jewish culture. Jews began to be excluded systematically from many institutes of higher education and professions. Many of the remaining synagogues were closed, and, in the early 1960s, a number of Soviet Jews were imprisoned or executed during a campaign against "economic crimes." During this period, there was a dramatic shift in Soviet foreign policy against Israel and toward the Arab nations.
http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/history.shtml

They were not allowed to practice Judaism in the open, and their "lifestyle" was seriously impinged upon, as this website illustrates, even if they didn't suffer the same hellish experiences they faced in Nazi Germany.  After WWII, their lot didn't imrove in the USSR.  Many Russian Jews moved to Israel in the late 80s and 90s because they were finally free to do so.  They, like all Soviet citizens, had very restricted travel documents.

Weezo, I would suggest you get past this passion you seem to have with communism, and try to understand that it has been used as an extremely repressive form of government time and time again.  It isn't to say that "communism" is inherently bad, but that governments that have attempted to implement it  have failed miserably.  China would have collapsed under its own weight had the government not made a fundamental shift away from communism toward state-controlled capitalism.  Cuba has similarly moved in this direction, realizing that it has to generate revenue in order to support its social services.  It can't exist within a closed economy, nor within a closed political society, as the Soviet Union made abundantly clear.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on January 30, 2008, 07:46:07 AM
Actually, Dzimas,

As I've said over and over, the information on the lives of Jews in Europe since WWII is well documented in the book "A Chosen Few" by Mark Kurlansky, not in "1968" by the same author. And, yes, Kurlansky does discuss the near-demise of the Jewish Doctors when Stalin was losing it just before his death. The fact that the doctors were released upon his death speaks more about the issue than the fact that Stalin, losing his mind, had them arrested.

But, you still haven't answered my question about the activities of anti-semitism in your beloved Lituania. Shall I suppose that they the Latvians are as anti-Jew as the Poles and West Germans?

Kurlansky brings out the fact that many Jews moved to Israel, then moved back because they found life "too hard" in Israel and preferred life in Europe.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on January 30, 2008, 08:07:41 AM

But, you still haven't answered my question about the activities of anti-semitism in your beloved Lituania. Shall I suppose that they the Latvians are as anti-Jew as the Poles and West Germans?

Kurlansky brings out the fact that many Jews moved to Israel, then moved back because they found life "too hard" in Israel and preferred life in Europe.



You can presume what you like, weezo, you usually do anyway.  I provided you links on the fate of Jews in WWII Lithuania in the Campaign Trail forum, but I guess you didn't bother to look at them. 

Does Kurlansky bringing out a fact make it a fact, I wonder?  Russia and Eastern Europe have fast growing economies, and have attracted many EE Jews back to the area, as well as other investors to the region.  However, most EE Jews have remained in Israel where they enjoy much better social and medical services than they would back in Russia or Lithuania.  But, some have come back to rediscover their Yiddish roots,

http://www.judaicvilnius.com/en

I had the pleasure of hearing Marija Krupoves sing songs from the interwar years,

http://www.jewishbookcenter.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=417


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on February 02, 2008, 09:16:45 PM
Coming to the end of 1968 and, like other highly rated (by me) reads, I've been reading slower to delay the end and making mental notes of subjects I want to explore more.  Still planning to follow with a reread of The White Album -- anyone else read it and care to comment?

I see some are unpersuaded re Czech voluntary communism, about which subject I have no conviction, but Kurlansky did not at all persuade me that Stokely was joking re that whole "the position of women in the movement is prone" thang.

Sure hope there'll be a Zinn discussion at some point.

 



Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on February 02, 2008, 11:02:28 PM
NYTemp,

I have slowed down to stall off the end of some of Kurlansky's books, so I know exactly how you feel. He makes reading so very interesting, that I can't put his books down until I force myself to do so.

You may enjoy reading his "A Chosen Few" about the recovery of the Jewish population in Europe following the Holocaust. He has some mention of events during the Holocaust, but puts more emphasis on the time following and the lives of the people as the continent split between capitalism and communism. From Kurlansky's perspective, communism was better, not because of the economics but because under communism they were protected from anti-semitism by actions of the government.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on February 03, 2008, 12:14:19 AM
Forthcoming
Miami and the Siege of Chicago
By Norman Mailer
Introduction by Frank Rich
 
1968. The Vietnam War was raging. President Lyndon Johnson, facing a challenge in his own Democratic party from the maverick anti-war candidate Eugene McCarthy, announced that he would not seek a second term. In April, Martin Luther King was assassinated, and riots broke out in inner cities throughout America. Bobby Kennedy was killed after winning the California primary in June. In August, Republicans met in Miami, picking the controversial Richard Nixon as their candidate, while in September, Democrats in Chicago backed the ineffectual Vice President Hubert Humphrey. TVs across the country showed anti-war protestors filling the streets of Chicago and the police running amok, beating and arresting demonstrators and delegates alike.
 
Forty years after 1968, the year still looms as a decisive one in modern American politics, a year of cultural and political revolution and counter-revolution, from which arose today's bitterly divided country.
 
In Miami and the Siege of Chicago, Norman Mailer, America's most protean and provocative writer, brings a novelist's eye to bear on the events of 1968. Mailer describes the fall of Rockefeller and the liberal Republicans while capturing the tinsel gleam of rising star Ronald Reagan. He confronts the stupefying pageantry of Miami and the mayhem in Chicago. He presents sharply-etched yet strikingly nuanced portaits of the complicated, ominous Richard Nixon and the enigmatic Eugene McCarthy. He shows himself struggling to do his job in the new mediated world of TV and expresses his sorrow, fear, fury, and pity at seeing his country nearing collapse.
 
Miami and the Siege of Chicago is a great book not only about 1968, but about America.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Reviews
One of the era's definitional books.
— The Nation
 
For historians who wish for the presence of a world-class literary witness at crucial moments in history, Mailer in Miami and Chicago was heaven-sent.
— The Washington Post
 
Dazzling accounts of the Republican and Democratic party conventions of 1968...
— Newsday
 
This is an excellent account of the conventions...Mailer sets the scene sensually like Dickens...his vignettes have imperial authority.
— The New York Times Book Review
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Format: Paperback
Jul 15, 2008
224 pages
ISBN: 1590172965
9781590172964
History
Politics & Current Affairs
 
NYRB
 

Norman Mailer (1923-2007) was the author of more than thirty books, including The Naked and the Dead; The Armies of the Night, for which he won a National Book Award and the Pulitzer Prize; The Executioner's Song, for which he won his second Pulitzer Prize; and The Castle in the Forest. »
 
Frank Rich is a columnist for The New York Times. His latest book is The Greatest Story Ever Sold: The Decline and Fall of Truth from 9/11 to Katrina. »




Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on February 04, 2008, 02:25:35 AM
Thanks, weezo, I'll keep that Kurlansky in mind for future ref.  I'm thinking after this next book, I'll do some follow-up re feminism, which got some attention in this book but '68 was sort of early days of "the second wave" so I'm gonna try to fill a bit of a void. (I'm also reminded I never did read Faludi's Backlash.)

Maybe I'm particularly intrigued now because I can't understand the anti-Hillary vitriol I'm hearing and can't help wondering about the sources of same--is it her or her hubs, or both?  Is it just another sign of the politics of polarization or does it, as it seems to me, go beyond politics? 

Questions are rhetorical, BTW, just an indication of where my wandering mind is wandering at the moment.

Will be sure to look in on the Oppenheimer discussion in Amer. Hist.     


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on February 04, 2008, 04:27:18 AM
I see some are unpersuaded re Czech voluntary communism, about which subject I have no conviction, but Kurlansky did not at all persuade me that Stokely was joking re that whole "the position of women in the movement is prone" thang.

NYT, the numbers simply don't support such an assertion.  The Soviets were great at engineering elections and the one in Czechoslovakia was no exception.  Any flirtation these countries might have had with communism died out before the war.  Most of the EE countries were hoping that liberation would come from the West, not from the East, and were brutally disappointed when the Red Army tanks came rolling in.  Yalta still carries much resonance in Eastern European.

An excellent example of what happened depending on which side of the dividing line you fell on is Austria and Hungary.  Austria had the good fortune of falling into the Western sphere of influence and is now one of the most affluent European countries.  Hungary had to suffer through decades of Soviet subordination, including the brutal squashing of the 56 uprising.  There was nothing to distinguish these two countries economically before the war.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on February 04, 2008, 08:52:47 PM
I don't know what numbers you refer to, dzimas, but the matter is not a controversy to me.  I did find Kurlansky's portrait of Dubcek fairly affecting, though--that was one impossible tightrope to walk.  Are you reading 1968?  I'd be interested in what you think of his treatment of such material if you read it--or the apposite chapters--rather than as you read about it here. 



   


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on February 04, 2008, 11:48:15 PM
No, I'm reading Oppenheimer at the moment.  I had posted a wiki link upstream on the percentage vote in the 1946 Czech election.  The Communist Party won a plurality, 38%, not a majority and had to form a ruling coalition.  The Slovaks overwhelmingly rejected Communism.  Over the next two years, the Communists pushed their coalition partners out of office and cancelled the 1948 election as I remember reading.  Didn't seem that there was much support for their regime.  By '68, Communism was all that Czechoslovakia knew and Dubcek worked himself up through the party, presenting himself as a reformer in '68, which for all intents and purposes he was, as he wanted a Western-style parliament after 20 years of single-party rule.  So, where in all that was there a "willingness" to accept communism?

It reminds me of the argument Goldhagen tried to make in Hitler's Willing Executioners,

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202196084&sr=1-1

that Germany willingly accepted Nazism, despite the fact that Hitler's party never received more than 35% of the vote, and he came to power through a coalition with the Social Democrats in an effort to offset the gains the Communists had made in parliament in '34.  Needless to say, Hitler dispensed with the electoral process once in power.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on February 05, 2008, 11:55:57 PM
Hmmm.  I think I see.  "Willing acceptance" seems a hard to measure concept.  There's likely whole masses of politically uninvolved folks for whom the regime in power may be a matter of disinterest altogether, at least unless/until it comes to determine all or most of everyday life.   

 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on February 06, 2008, 12:32:12 AM
NYTemp,

From reading the two of Kurlansky's books, I got the impression that a number of eastern Europeans saw communism as "freedom" from the oppressions suffered under previous governments. This was brought out even more in his book "A Chosen Few" where the Jews, Gypsies and other oppressed people welcomed the freedom and protection they were given under communism, and which returned when communism was overthrown in some (all?) of those countries. I think it came as a surprise to some of these people that they were not allowed to persue communism "in their own style" within their borders, but were held to the fiats handed down by the Kremlin which tended to act more imperialistically than expected. But, I got the distince impression that Jews in particular felt somewhat abandoned when communism died since they lost their protections from mistreatment by the non-Jewish segments in their own countries. This is an aspect of communism that I was never aware of and am glad to have it now in my knowledge.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on February 06, 2008, 03:22:03 AM
Communism held great promise in its early stages but very soon proved to be just another form of totalitarian government, particularly in the Soviet Union.  Many Jews were drawn to Communism initially because of its promise of a stateless society.  But, many Jews were also Zionists at the time and were pushing Britain to carve out a Jewish homeland from their Mandate in Palestine.  And, then there were those who were content to be Germans, Poles, Italians and Litvaks until fascism took its ugly turn in the 1930s.  It is a very complex subject and one that can't be glossed over, as it seems is the case in 1968.  In the end, there was not much more freedom or protection under "Communism" than there had been under authoritarian states, which many European countries had become in the late 1930s.  The Soviet Union had become an authoritarian state itself, made manifestly evident in the little support it provided Catalonia (which had set up an Anarchist government) against Franco.  Stalin abandoned Catalonia when it no longer wished to follow the party line.  Orwell's Homage to Catalonia is well worth reading.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on February 06, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
Weezo

But, since this was nothing new, why would they have felt "abandoned"?

I think it is more like nytempsperdu described, " 'Willing acceptance' seems a hard to measure concept.  There's likely whole masses of politically uninvolved folks for whom the regime in power may be a matter of disinterest altogether, at least unless/until it comes to determine all or most of everyday life."

That is something we have been experiencing here for the better part of a decade and are now left with zilch; were it not that we also feel on the verge of something quite other and more equitable.

I don't really understand what you mean about, "it came as a surprise to some of these people that they were not allowed to persue communism "in their own style" within their borders,..."

Is this anything like not being able to daily expect we can live according to Constitutional guarantees? I got into a bit of revelation today re: Godel, who was of course Jewish, as was Einstein, and Oskar Morgenstern who were with him when he was to take his oath of citizenship and wanted to explain something important to Judge Foremen in Trenton. Because he had been studying and preparing for his citizenship "exam", Godel has spotted a lapse in our Constitution that would allow Fascism to take over; and he felt it very important that the Judge should be warned.

Oskar and Albert managed to shush him by the prerogative of the importance of actually having his swearing in, not to inconvenience the Judge; they were generally, not "baby sitters" but more or less "older brothers to Godel, who was at a loss between two worlds.

As a result of leaving behind a horrible world, his values or perceptions had changed but my point is that depending on what part of Europe you were in this was already true of the majority of Jews and Roma/Romany.
There probably was nothing about communism that ever was what one pursued "in their own style". Yet I have the feeling because you have mentioned something edging on that before, in regard to either their "religion" or "lifestyle", that you haven't got it quite yet that under communism in Europe there was neither religion nor lifestyle any different than anybody else's.  What we continually read in Kurlansky's,1968, was how at that particularly time  there was a return of anti-semitism among communists, which is pretty much of the nature that I have continuously heard in this current American campaign about a campaigner who is supposedly not ready as yet to be a candidate. This has been going on for several years now in public discourse, on the pages of The New York Times for instance, from average Americans. Why, because they were this way in 1905,and 1917; and, if not themselves because they were not yet born, somehow they became convinced from a parental generation, a teacher, a grandparent, a politician in the past?  That's America. Were Europeans different about Jews back in those past dates? No. Communism did not  remove their anti-semitism anymore than Democracy removes it or any form of racism when the Democracy is not practiced. We have this stunning situation in which we have been forcing it upon a war-subjected population, and are now telling the would be candidate who was always against imposition of democracy by violence--that he  is   not   ready.

I'm hoping that you will perceive the similarity between the two examples.   We had a poster over at the nytimes come, who would drift in and become enraged because(?) there was a probability that he had been a writer at Dissent magazine in an earlier period, so now he was venting where the forums at nytimes provided the opportunity. And, it seemed very much that the point he was making, while we were in the midst of accepting the Bush dogma for all things bright and beautiful, that currently the Left was anti-semitic. Do tell? As if, Bush dogmaticians weren't, just because neoconservatives counted a number of Jewish intellectuals who were decisively non-Left. We were supposed to watch out for these anti-semites.  Well, as they were labeled School of Chicago, Leo Straussians, including that bad-girl Cynthia Ozick among them, for what? having been a sort of amateur Henry James scholar with a doctorate and a keen sense of humor? would we by any chance learn that our administration had basically worked with those ideas since before I was born, that it is not cool not to be a WASP?  Well, Jeffery toddled off some where only to be replaced by something else. The next thing I heard, after coming down from  discussions of European policy while an American was having a war and letting his Secretary of Defense insult Europeans, was that the something else in Fiction had taken it up as a group cause to put that other Geoffrey Dyer  out to dry as well by accusing him of non-heterosexuality.    How does this differ from the experience of "being different" under communism?

Got to go to bed.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on February 06, 2008, 06:21:35 AM
Maddie,

I grew up with the idea that communism was the "ultimate evil", and, in adulthood, have been curious why, if it was so horrid, the people living under it did not rebel. They seem to have merely let it run its course and be edged out by overspending on weaponry, as we almost did under Reagan. It is eye-opening to read about people who actually preferred communism and considered it "freedom" from what they had going previously. If I seem to be "embracing" communism it is only the excitement of finally being able to learn about the "other side of the story". As we all know, there are always two sides to a story. It is just my own "personal journey".


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on February 06, 2008, 08:10:31 AM
If you are going to "embrace" communism, maybe you should look back at some of the utopian communities in America, like New Harmony, 

http://www.ulib.iupui.edu/kade/newharmony/home.html

or communal religious groups like the Shakers, that truly embraced the ideal, rather than look at the Soviet Union as a model.

Another interesting story is that of Joseph Davis's plantation after the Civil War,

http://www.upress.state.ms.us/books/594


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on February 06, 2008, 12:02:59 PM
NYTemp,

I have slowed down to stall off the end of some of Kurlansky's books, so I know exactly how you feel. He makes reading so very interesting, that I can't put his books down until I force myself to do so.

You may enjoy reading his "A Chosen Few" about the recovery of the Jewish population in Europe following the Holocaust. He has some mention of events during the Holocaust, but puts more emphasis on the time following and the lives of the people as the continent split between capitalism and communism. From Kurlansky's perspective, communism was better, not because of the economics but because under communism they were protected from anti-semitism by actions of the government.

He really makes that assertion?  That is just risable.  Everyone knows that the Soviets suppressed all religion across the board, and they killed more people than the Nazis, although the targets of the purges represented more than just Jews.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on February 06, 2008, 12:06:53 PM
 I grew up with the idea that communism was the "ultimate evil", and, in adulthood, have been curious why, if it was so horrid, the people living under it did not rebel.

Have you never heard of the Stalinist purges and the brutal suppression of free speech in the Soviet Union?  And people did "rebel".  That's why the Soviet Union no longer exists.

If you want to know the truth about communism as a theory vs practice, I would recommend reading Marx and Engels, then some academic works on the Soviet Union in general and Stalinism in particular.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on February 06, 2008, 01:06:22 PM
Weezo: "....It is eye-opening to read about people who actually preferred communism and considered it "freedom" from what they had going previously. If I seem to be "embracing" communism it is only the excitement of finally being able to learn about the "other side of the story".

For you as a former school teacher, I have to ask you what you were doing for the past forty years and what were you teaching our children in the classroom? If you didn’t learn the other side of the story until recent years, that’s no one’s fault but yours. And if you’ve now come around to the opinion that communism wasn’t such a bad system after all, then I can’t see where your awareness has made any real progress other than to tardily learn a few additional facts that were always available to you.

It’s astonishing to hear you musing that people who lived under communism must not have regarded it as much of yoke or they would have overthrown the system long ago. Surely, you must have heard of what happened in Hungary in 1956 and in Czechoslovakia in 1968. You’re completely daffy if you think the Soviet system was anything other than autocratic and utterly ruthless.

I shudder to contemplate what you put into the minds of impressionable young children whose public education was once entrusted to you.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: ponderosa on February 06, 2008, 01:25:50 PM
Communism can work if done small scale and participation is voluntary (see the dzimas link above).

Out of all the essays, books, and lectures I have exposed myself to, the following (from a poster at a libertarian/anarchist site I frequent) sums it up nicely.

Communism fails as a social system because it treats people as masses rather than as individuals. In the US, there is not a mass of three hundred million people, all with similar wants and needs. Instead, there are three hundred million individuals with a vast assortment of wants and needs.

One mistake people make is to consider the free market an unplanned economy. In fact, the free market co-opts everyone as an economic planner. Each person does his or her own bit of planning. Some plan poorly, but the bad decisions have limited effect. Under communism, if a planner makes a bad decision, millions suffer from the mistake.





Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on February 06, 2008, 02:45:09 PM
Ponderosa,

I like you explanation. It dovetails with what I am understanding.

Clark,

I must be stating my thought badly for you to so seriously misrepresent what I was saying. The statements of what I have understood about communism were dotted, of course, with various insights from time to time, but I find Kurlansky to be refreshingly open about the situation in Europe. Yes, the Soviet system was authoritarian, and that, I think, is one reason why there were rebellions early on. The Soviet system is perhaps not a good judge of communism because of the authoritarian rule. Can you separate communism from the Soviet system? That is what I am trying to do.

As to when I was teaching, I was teaching Special Ed students, usually English, and occasionally other subjects at the high school level. Later I taught technology to the primary students, and in between and after, I taught a variety of subjects to homebound students. The last semester I taught Government to regular high schoolers, and, since I am not an "expert" in the subject, but just filling in for a teacher who had to retire at mid year, I strickly followed the previous teacher's curriculum and the text-book which spent much more time explaining democracy than explaining communism or socialism. If you want to see what I did in that government class, my lesson plans and assignments are still online. Go to: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/mrsp/socstud/gov and then you can intelligently critique my approach.

Why would you assume that teachers are expected to know everything about all subjects beyond what they are teaching? Do you realize how much time teachers have to devote to their job? In retirement, I finally have the time to read as I never did when I was teaching. I was expected to keep up in my "field", which was keeping up with the advanced in pedegogy for special needs students. That is what I did. There are only 24 hours in a day, and grading papers and preparing effective lessons take up a lot of the hours when a teacher is not standing in front of a class. Not to mention the parent contact, community involvement, and other things that go with the job. Get a grip!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on February 06, 2008, 03:43:04 PM
Weezo,

I apologize for my last remark. It was a rude comment and I shouldn’t have made it. I’m sure you did the best you knew how to do in teaching students, far better than I ever could.

"The Soviet system is perhaps not a good judge of communism because of the authoritarian rule. Can you separate communism from the Soviet system? That is what I am trying to do."

I understand what you’re saying. But if there's anything we should have learned from the 20th century's greatest social/economic experiment that was given six decades to prove itself, it is that there is a world of difference between how communism works in theory and how it worked in application. Of course, apologists will argue that it was never really tried. With the passing of a few more generations, the idea might even be revived.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on February 07, 2008, 08:07:16 PM
Thanks, Clark,

I truly appreciate your apology. I really did the best I could in the situation I was in.

Just got a note from one of my former LD students. He was a silly teenager, but has turned out to be a really good man, husband and father. He has even, in spite of all the odds of being special ed, black, and from a small town, made his way in the business world to the point where he is being encouraged to go back to school and get his degree. He said that since he was in special ed, he was afraid he couldn't do it, and I told him that just wasn't so. He has improved his reading skills greatly since he was silly, and is now mature enough to make it work for him. He wrote to congratulate me on the publication of my first children's book that is a "real book". He is not the only one of my former students who have "beat the odds" and have told me that it was my belief in them that encouraged them to set their goals higher than others. I have heard from enough former students who have "beat the odds", some in learning to use computers before anyone else in the community did, and some just from knowing that I'd believed in them, that I feel good about my teaching career.

Was I perfect? Certainly not! Could I have done better if the school had had better financial support, or more of almost anything else? Of course! I could only work within the venue. Could someone else have done better under the same circumstances? Certainly! Someone else could have had strengths where I had weaknesses and perhaps the number of success stories would be greater.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on February 07, 2008, 09:41:57 PM
Quote
But if there's anything we should have learned from the 20th century's greatest social/economic experiment that was given six decades to prove itself, it is that there is a world of difference between how communism works in theory and how it worked in application

Not to mention the centuries other systems have had...The "decline and fall" comes when authoritarian regimes develop or gain power, whatever belief system they're based on.

I have been known to make a comparison between how communism works in application with how Christianity does/has done likewise, how both are based on an idealistic view of human nature, such as that humans will subdue their selfish individualistic instincts and work for the common good. 

In one exercise, my h.s. world history students were given descriptions of various systems, including communism, socialism, and capitalism, but without labels attached.  Asked to choose the system they would prefer to live under, socialism won--every time.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on February 07, 2008, 11:00:28 PM
NY Temp,

I am not surprised at your students' choices. In theory, socialism looks like the best bet - full employment, limited work day/week, a chicken in every pot, no "nobility/celebrities" in high hats and furs kicking the beggers to the curb! The kicker is that those who get a little power are never satisfied. Power corrupts, and the greater power given, the greater power that is desired. Then, in reality, socialism ends, and you are begging despotism.

It is easy to love capitalism when you have a good paying job, a nice house, and lots of electronic toys to play with. But if the job and house go by-by, the unemployment checks run out, welfare, which means the man of the house has to leave, looms on the horizon, capitalism suddenly looks mean-spirited and overcast by doom and gloom.







Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on February 07, 2008, 11:59:04 PM
Weezo,

Wim Wenders, the German film director, has said that Europeans like to comfort themselves with “the false belief” that the misery and isolation of the Roma is “actually an act of self-chosen freedom.”
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/06/arts/design/06roma.html?ref=design


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on February 08, 2008, 01:50:59 AM
The most interesting period in socialism was the 1920s, not only in the Soviet Union but Germany, Spain and even UK, where the Labour Party began to grow into a formidable opposition political party.  This is where Orwell came from, which never ceases to amuse me when right-wingers try to lay claim to him.  Spain was split between the Socialists in Madrid and the Anarchists in Barcelona.  Germany had its famous Weimar Republic.  The early Soviet experiment held a lot of promise, especially in art, literature, music and architecture, with now legendary figures like Malevich, Rodchenko, Mayakovsky, Stravinsky and El Lizzitsky rising to the forefront.  Not surprising many were Jewish and there was a relative free flow of cultural exchange taking place during this time.  The Bauhaus in Germany was most famous, as it brought together many leading architects, artists, experimental filmmakers, and craftsmen under one roof, so to speak, creating a truly cosmopolitan environment during one of the richest periods in design.  Le Corbusier is not to be forgotten, as he had issued the anthem in Toward a New Architecture, and was without question the creative spark of the era, with his bold new approach spreading throughout the world, to Central and South America and Asia as well.  All of this grew out of a new social awareness after the devastating impact of WWI, and is well documented and well worth reading.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on February 08, 2008, 04:33:23 AM
Dzimas.

Speaking of new architecture, I suppose you took a look at this:

http://www.ephratacloister.org/index.htm

I have to agree with the gentleman who was quoted, "Utter darkness and mystery".   That was my own impression upon visiting, particularly on the inside. Noticeably, the exteriors are 17th.century German, and a day in Spring with yellow daffodils against the gray of the fences and wooden buildings helps to cheer things up.  But, when they say "five story buildings", on the inside that becomes quite different and not a lot of fun on one of their particular tourist holiday tours. It is almost catacomb narrow passages where you must duck your head,and as you are in a group, you can sense panic, as though you were being initiated most unknowingly and perhaps unwillingly into something you hadn't bargained for; but, that's it, in a nutshell. A little bit like that film that was done by Adrien Brody and Joaquin Phoenix in 2004,The Village. (And, I didn't even see that film until after the Cloister experience!

My attitude about this is that Germans were particularly inclined toward this "experience" but there is a large difference between the communal and communism, or is there?  The religious implication that this is community generally falls apart after several good arguments, and it is not at all unusual around here; it has always been done that way and "off they go" somewhere else where they can say how it is going to be.  I've witnessed it several times.

There seems to be currently something of the kind since the Bush terms of his very own administration. The Amish tensed up a little bit when  some male began preaching a religious reasoning more in alignment with some other ordinary protestants who have gotten a good break out of the faith based initiatives of the Bush II,part 2 regime. This is the thing they insisted on avoiding in the old world, so they were just short of asking politely,hint,hint, firmly, whether he might like to move on rather than convert Amishmen who have always themselves moved on when they were in disagreement about how to  do things

Conrad Beissel was, of course, some sort of Pietest  which I am familiar with through Jacob Boehm being counter to Luther. I can see why but I could also care less about that aspect as I am more inclined to the plant mystic life of Jacob Boehm.  Yet he was clearly tied to Christopher Metz and so, I became a little more intrigued with the Amana Colonies of Iowa, after settling into Pennsylvania.  They were definitely more communal, self-sufficient; yet, the interesting thing about all these social experiments among the German religious is how a period of economic stress will cause the disbanding of the community as it did in Iowa with the arrival of the Depression.

So having spent hours looking over the materials contained at your site on my own rediscovery of the Amana neighbours  of my grandparents, here is something that caught my eye:
[but I've tinyurled it just to tighten up]     http://tinyurl.com/ytkftd
[and again:
                http://tinyurl.com/24pfef

Same "street", I think.  That is a peculiarity of reference as time goes by, looking back on the past, the road becomes a street.

It reminded me uncannily of something I ran into that I was going to post to weezo but then hadn't, about the shtetl Jews;  and the photo had hit me as not at all so different in 1927, from the settlements of the "colonies" on the prairie. If I had wanted to clarify the contrast between "country mouse" and "city mouse, among Jewish immigrants to America and what they had left behind in Eastern Europe, by including this photograph:
                       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lakhva.jpg

I would then have to also admit that the full industrious village life of the planned community at Amana Colonies in those winter stills displayed a kind of sparseness, in some cases even impoverished as compared to the individual farmsteads of my grandparents, who dealt with a village of muddy ruts for a road but instinctually co-op farmed  as the Depression arrived.             


                   


Title: Re: Czech Film History
Post by: nytempsperdu on February 15, 2008, 11:28:37 PM
Dzimas: Thought of you several times today while listening to this terrific interview with Milos Forman on NPR show "Fresh Air" (which you may be able to access through podcast somewhere on their site)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19048469

It seems the replay of the interview was prompted by this:
"The Museum of Modern Art in Manhattan is presenting a two week complete retrospective of Forman's films from 1963 to the present, including "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," "Amadeus," and "Ragtime." Forman grew up in Czechoslovakia, where he helped to create Czech New Wave cinema before immigrating to the United States. His latest film, "Goyas Ghosts," will be released on DVD February 26."

I especially liked hearing about his reaction to the Soviet invasion (he was in Paris at time, Truffaut was of help to him) and his tales of making movies in spite of oppressive regimes.  His thoughts on how America's freedom of speech gets wasted on the likes of pornography (interview isn't recent and he talks about making People vs. Larry Flynt among others) were sobering when considered in light of later attempts at controlling info to public.  Recall how Kurlansky emphasized the influence of tv coverage of  Vietnam War (more nightly pix "from the front" than Iraq War gets) on public perception, student protests, Chicago convention, etc., then consider the fact that today it's not allowed to show pix of bodies coming in to Dover AFB.   But I digress.

I do remember seeing Forman's Fireman's Ball and was surprised that it was banned at the time (firemen threatened strike!), even though Forman's first few films were comedies so he wasn't considered a threat by the apparatchiks.

Hope you can connect and enjoy.  (Didn't put this in film forum 'cause it seemed to tie in more with 1968 discussion.)



Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on February 18, 2008, 09:54:56 PM
Having finished Kurlinsky's books, I am started on one called "Einstein", by Walter Isaacson. Unfortunately, it is a hardbound book, but good enough to be worth the heavy weight, even if I can only read for a spell, then rest my arms. The book starts right in with the evidence that Einstein used to understand his theories before getting into the details of his childhood, education, and the mismanagement of the first of his marriages. It is a very readable book, and again brings up the issue of anti-semitism in Europe. Einstein felt it that anti-semitism may have been the reason he went four years without a position after graduating college. He began publishing his papers on physics before he got a job at the patent office in Switzerland, which he held until he could, at last, get an academic job.

I felt a great deal of sadness toward his first wife, Melica Maric' who was perhaps close to an equal to Einstein intellectually, and that is why he was attracted to her in college, yet, after they married, he pushed her out of his study and turned her into a housefrau, then went looking for someone of "real" interest, someone who would pamper him.

Apparently Maric' insisted on his being a full partner in the raising of the two acknowledged sons (after the mysterious disappearance of the daughter born before their marriage when he didn't want fatherhood to interfere with job-hunting), but when he settled on leaving his wife, he leaped joyfully into the arms of a lover, and, at least as far as I am now in the book, forgot his two sons who of course went to live with their mother rather than stay underfoot when he had romance on his mind.

I highly recomment the Isaacson book to others who may want to learn more about Einstein, or about that time in history.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on February 19, 2008, 02:23:57 PM
NYT, nice to be thought of in pleasant ways.  Fireman's Ball was an interesting movie, but it didn't make much impact on me.  I like Foreman's later work much better.  I can well imagine how fascinating it would be to hear him talk about life in 1968, and the heydey of Czech film making.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on February 19, 2008, 02:33:11 PM
Dzimas,

I did as you and Bob suggested, and put Einstein on this forum, and instead of commenting on it here, where you say it belongs, you go off on a tangent talking about movies, when there is a perfectly good movies forum to do so on.

Let's look under the sheepskin and view the beast below!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on February 19, 2008, 04:38:07 PM
Just responding to NYT's post from several days ago.  Sorry for the intrusion.  No more interruptions.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on February 19, 2008, 08:42:30 PM
I'll get the Clark biography of Einstein off the shelf tonight and look through it. I'll see if the local library has the Isaacson biography. If so I'll borrow until I buy one for myself.

In the meanwhile, here's a view of the great one from Jurgen Neffe and his biography EINSTEIN (2005).

Quote
Rarely has a single individual been so farsighted and myopic at the same time. Hewas one of the first to  recognize the danger posed by the Nazis, the degree to which the Jews were being persecuted, and the threat to  democracy in the United States by the American militarization after WWII, yet he never failed to startle his friends and colleagues with the extent of his political naivete.
Discoveries which shook the world on the one hand, errors and miscalculations on the other. With his theory  of relativity  and his ground breaking writings on quantum mechanics, heenhanced and transcended  classical physics. But no sooner was he famous than he weilded his authority to impede further advances, and the younger generation regarded him as a stubborn mule who steered clear of progress.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on February 19, 2008, 08:59:42 PM
Bob,

What a succinct description of the man. I am not far enough along in Isaacson to see what he became as he wallowed in the glories of acadamia ... I am only at the time where he is returning to Berlin to be with a lover he picked up after he "ruined" his first wife to the scientific career she hoped for (and Isaacson mentions there is reason to believe that Maric' was instrumental in putting together his first five scientific papers when he was still unemployed... she had the knowledge, the background, and if he hadn't insisted on her being his hausfrau, may have had her own career!). Isaacson suggests early in the book that Einstein, who eschewed all authority in his youth, ended up putting himself in the role of an authorititarian. He suggest early that Einstein was sorely divided by this role.

And, yes, Einstein, as a student in Berlin, was very put-off by the militarism that preceded the Nazi movement, and was happier when he quite his school in Berlin and re-joined his family which had by then moved to Italy. He found the education system in his town in Italy, which emphasized individual thinking and creativity, much more to his liking.

Where I am now in the book, he is just returning to Berlin, all aglow with illicit love. Will see from my reading tonight how he perceives the "progress" in the German outlook when he returns to Berlin. I think the narrative is somewhere in the late teens, early twenties, so would be heading into the first WW.

Bob, Thanks for engaging me in a discussion of my reading. I really do appreciate someone to bounce off of. I don't care which forum, but I want to share perceptions of Einstein, even if we don't read the same book.




Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on February 19, 2008, 09:56:28 PM
And my post that dzimas responded to was tail-end tangential to the 1968 discussion of not-so-long-ago.  But I, too, will post no further digressions.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on February 19, 2008, 10:02:15 PM
NY,

I really have no problem with digression in and of themselve. I think they help keep interest in what is being discussed. My problem is with those who decry the digressions of others, then commit their own with impunity.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on February 19, 2008, 11:03:52 PM
In that case...

Bob, earlier you posted your statement that you weren't positive that you completely understood an Einstein theory. 

You'll never believe how that is done, but this is the way we had to do it around Princeton. The place to look for it, to read up on it, is in the weekly edition of -- The Princeton Packet, which is the local newspaper. Just a small fold-over newspaper, fairly thick, but when something important needs explaining that is going on in some mysterious corner of the campus, they feel that they don't want any of us average townsfolk being incompetent just in case somebody asks us to explain. 

Thus, one week, we were given "String theory".   If I thought that I got it then, I certainly do not remember it now.

It's in archives somewhere, between 1987 and 1997.

Meanwhile, although I wasn't familiar with a magazine called, DISCOVER

the March issue is dedicated as a Special Issue. The Unknown Einstein.
How the Genius really worked.
Why he trashed his top ideas.
What lies beyond Relativity.
Who stole his brain.
Einstein Inc. The $18 million brand.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on February 26, 2008, 01:30:26 PM
Anyone interesting in reading and discussing Alan Bullock's Hitler and Stalin?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on February 27, 2008, 02:55:55 PM
Sigh.  Didn't think so.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on February 27, 2008, 04:15:34 PM
Sorry, Des, I'm Hitler'd out.  I'm still finishing up "1968" by Kurlansky.  I laid it aside a while back since it became "to much, too much" alongside the "election" babble going on 24/7 on TV, newsprint, AND here at Melba.  I can barely keep from wanting to "sleep" through all this.

Since you so seldom suggest a book, I'm sorry to let you down.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on February 27, 2008, 04:42:39 PM
Just doesn't seem like anyone is interested in the same stuff I am.   :-[


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on February 27, 2008, 07:20:05 PM
I am ;D  (but I thought we were discussing Isaacson's EINSTEIN)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on February 28, 2008, 12:09:13 PM
Apparently you are - just thought I'd check on the Bullock tome because it takes quite a while to read.  It's quite the historical achievement, absolutely an amazing work.


Title: Re: "Flashback" to 1968: The Year That...
Post by: nytempsperdu on March 01, 2008, 07:01:16 PM
Warning: 1968 reference: Heard Brett Morgan, maker of movie Chicago 10, on NPR, seems like it might be worthy, though I have doubts about the decision to do the trial section in animation (however cartoonish Judge Julius Hoffman may have been).   

On edit: Opinion of above movie sharply divided on "Ebert & Roper" tonight, and on the very issue that I identified as probably problematical.  May see it anyway.

In the meantime, playing now is another movie, this one came out in 1968, 2001: A Space Odyssey.  It looks great in HD, and I'd forgotten the humor.  I remember the disagreement my first husband and I had on the way home from seeing it, with his staunch position being that "a movie should have a beginning, a middle and an end, dammit" (same disagreement we had after seeing "Nashville")  I loved/he hated both.


Did I say I wouldn't digress again?  Ooops, sorry...


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on March 05, 2008, 08:19:16 PM
With profound apologies for interrupting the intense discussion still going on, may I solicit some help?

This morning I got an email from a teacher who used one of my personalized books with her students for a unit on the Underground Railroad. She asked if I had a similar story to use on her unit on the Holocaust. I don't, but on thinking about it, I think I would like to write one.

So far, I am thinking of having the reader don their magical History Hat and travel back in history to visit a death camp (don't know which one yet), and spend some time learning of the horrors (don't know much about them yet), and meet a musician who has been slightly spared someof the worst of the horrors because of his musical talent (to know authentic name would be invaluable). I contacted a friend in the Netherlands who says she can help me with pictures to illustrate the story.

Now, I have read "A Chosen Few" by Mark Kurlansky, that mentions some of the horrors in the death camps, but it has been decade since I really read anything on any other specifics.

Can anyone recommend one or two quick reads that may include details on life in the death camps?

I'll be most appreciative of any help.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on March 05, 2008, 10:12:35 PM
nytempsperdu,re:#538.

"I remember the disagreement my first husband and I had on the way home from seeing it, with his staunch position being that "a movie should have a beginning, a middle and an end, dammit" .

How uncanny, 2001: A Space Odyssey. Could anyone have predicted what we were going to have to put up with timely when it arrived?

But,you were originally correct, we were stoned when we saw that; which means it did not matter   what was the beginning, middle, or  end.
You were thus, doubly correct.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on March 05, 2008, 10:40:49 PM
weezo, I'd start with Theresienstadt (although it has no  Netherlands locale). Use this link and peruse, because there are many attached resources as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Camp

I'd be at a loss as to how to communicate in regard to this, on a childrens' level.   Why it occured to me, immediately, is how it had been well known for concerts by inmates in the camp.  I do recall seeing pictures of children there, dressed nicely for the Red Cross visit; and, yet, at the same time, notoriously few camps kept children following "selection" upon arrival. In keeping with the "Economy" of the Third Reich, to save expenses, there was no food provided for non-contributive workers in Labor Camps; which meant that small children were exterminated upon arrival. 

The Dutch situation on the other hand was a practical case of the occupying troops denying subsistence supplies to urban civilians, so that the Germans could themselves survive the shortages while stationed there. Dutch citizens had to be inventive about making their way into the rural countryside to visit farms.  I have a favourite film that starts with that premise. 
Antonia's Line, directed by Marlene Gorris                                           


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on March 16, 2008, 09:59:03 PM
Hit an interesting historical querk in my reading from Einstein. Seems that in those days, a scientist was not a scientist if he promoted his own work or seemed to like publicity about his work. One of the delays in Einstein receiving the Nobel Prize was an anti-semitite on the board who insisted that Einstein was not truly a scientist because he seemed to enjoy publicity. In part, the argument was that the Nobel Prize in Physics was to be provided for advancements in the experience in physics rather than the theory. Einstein was theoretical - he left the practical part to others.

In is interesting how little that tradition of eschewing the limelight seems to be today when everyone is encourage to self-promote at any and all times.

Maddie, I will approach the writing for children as if I were writing for adults. I am not going to sugar coat it, but I don't intend to give anyone nightmares either. It never works to write/talk "down" to children. What I need, and am thinking about it, is a hook that can relate what happened then to what happens now.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 12, 2008, 09:02:53 AM
Hmmm, not much going on in this part of the forum ...

?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on April 12, 2008, 09:53:47 AM
thanatopsy

I was going to say, reading (I expect) but then I noticed where I was? The reading is going on in the American half of the dual History forums. This one came into being under false pretenses.

I just got the best book, the follow-up to Steve Coll's original, CIA(by which he should have just said, G.H.W. Bush,sr.),Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001

(and although I took out a continuing subscription to The New Yorker, so I could use their archives, I obviously was not paying attention to the fact that they hired Steve Coll to join their staff. Which is much safer for him than being embedded as a roving correspondent in somebody's army; but, apparently that is what you've got to do, if you are ever going to write a book like that or others he has done. You have to expose yourself to being a front-line observer.)

I went to Barnes and Noble and bought this very expensive book, but a wise investment for the future when looking back, and it is another long slow read.
The Bin Ladens: An Arabian Family in the American Century, by Steve Coll (Hardcover - April 1, 2008)
 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on April 12, 2008, 12:05:11 PM
How 'bout we read and discuss the bin Ladens---I was eye-balling just an hour ago and may go back and buy it. It looks good. Coll is a decent writer.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 12, 2008, 01:36:17 PM
It appears that Steve Coll is someone whose books are worth reading:

http://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/10/ghost_wars_how_reagan_armed_the


Great interview. The one problem that I see is that his books are very lengthy and it may be too taxing to read two long books at one time for both American and world history.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on April 12, 2008, 03:48:01 PM
I am reading both Ben Franklin and Einstein by Isaacson, and it is interesting to compare how different they were, and how similar. Both were from tradesmen families. Einstein was expected to go into a trade - engineering. Franklin's father tried to place him in various trades. Both were not shining examples of husbands. Franklin had very little formal schooling; Einstein had plenty, but was not a star student. Einstein was unemployed early in life, and then seems to have gotten into the groove of working for universities (often without teaching responsibilities), while Franklin worked very hard as a young man in order to retire at an age early enough to allow his philosophy to flower. Franklin was not interested in theories that had no practical application. Einstein felt that it was up to others to find the practical applications for his theories.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 12, 2008, 11:37:53 PM
Coll:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/002-1670388-3194460?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Ghost+Wars


Amazon has good prices on "Ghost Wars" which appears to have great relevance to today's headlines.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on April 13, 2008, 02:06:13 AM
Heard Coll on NPR recently and would certainly be in for Ghost Wars (if in library or paperback), and/or maybe for the book about the bin Laden family. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 14, 2008, 01:25:20 PM
I have an unread copy of Ghost Wars on my bookshelf.  If you guys agree to a reading, I'll join in.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 14, 2008, 09:33:51 PM
... sounds like a good idea to me!




Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 15, 2008, 09:54:07 AM
Okay - I'll get started on it tonight.  Have you already read it?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 15, 2008, 05:56:38 PM
... nope, haven't started it.

But it appears Weezo is in charge in this part of the forum so let's see if she wants to lead a group reading.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on April 15, 2008, 07:16:43 PM
Than,

I will be glad to lead a reading of a book that interests me, but I'd rather read history than current events. With millions of years of human life on earth, I am unsure why a history forum would be interested in a book about the past few decades. I may be peculiar, but that is me.

I am reading Einstein, as Bob and I discussed some time back, and am enjoying the concurrent reading of both Einstein and Ben Franklin and greatly enjoying a comparison of these two geniuses.

In addition to the two Isaacson books, I am doing some reading and research to write a children's story about a survivor of the Holocaust who was a child/teenager at the time.

In short, I have neither interest nor time to devote to the Cole book, and hope that those of you who read it enjoy it.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 15, 2008, 10:04:04 PM
Well, I'm not to be a leader in book discussions so unless someone else leads, I'm also out for this  one.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on April 16, 2008, 01:53:36 AM
Why does a book discussion have to have a leader?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on April 16, 2008, 03:10:11 AM
Donotremove,

                       Discipline is remembering what you want.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 16, 2008, 10:23:23 AM
Funny, I don't see weezo as a discussion leader here.  Actually, we've had very little in the way of book discussions, period, let alone leaders. 

Weezo, current events ARE history in the making, and things that took place in the 90s are no longer current events.  Anyway, I understand what you mean - I prefer history that goes further back myself, but the Coll book is an important one - it's a book that can help us have an informed opinon on US foreign policy prior to 9/11.   But, if it flat out does not interest you, I can certainly understand that since no book has been discussed on any of the forums here that interests me, with the exception of a desultory discussion of Faulkner in general way back in the fiction forum.

I'm just desperate to get some kind of discussion going here or in nonfiction on something that even remotely interests me.  Seems like an impossiblity.

I'll throw this out - tested the waters in non-fiction about a week ago.

I will lead a discussion on one of these two books if anyone is interested:

Under the Banner of Heaven, by Jon Krakauer.  This is a fascinating account of a gruesome murder committed by Mormon fundamentalists about 10 or 15 years ago along with a complete history of the LDS church and the LDS Fundamentalists.  Since there is a lot of press converage of the same group of people with the mess going on in Texas, it is very enlightening.  I can't emphasize how strangely creepy and engaging this book is. 

or

A Beautiful Mind, which puts the movie version to shame.  It's a compelling biography of a man plagued by mental illness who is possibly one of the most brilliant minds of our time, and how he overcame it. 

Ghost Wars is a book I started about a year or so ago and got tired of, partially because it is so infuriating to read.  I'm willing to plow through it if people want to discuss it, but I can't begin to volunteer for discussion leader.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on April 16, 2008, 10:52:29 AM
Dessie,

I agree that I am not a "leader" in these discussions. I am just a participant, when the book suits me.

I've got a nice collection of Mark Kurlansky's books, which I do consider to be history, and much more interesting, to me, than what you have suggested. So far, no one wants to discuss those books, and it disappoints me.

A good book on ancient Egypt would catch my attention, or even one on the crusades that is a hard-hitting and worth reading book. I wouldn't mind going back to Catherine the Great. I would really enjoy reading something on Chinese history. These are topics I expected to read on a discussion of World History.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 16, 2008, 11:07:52 AM
I've got a nice collection of Mark Kurlansky's books, which I do consider to be history, and much more interesting, to me, than what you have suggested.

I don't know what you're referring to here - what did I suggest?  I'm just saying we don't have anyone who "runs" this place - wasn't trying to be insulting or anything.

I understand that the books I suggested aren't technically World History, but we're not discussing ANYTHING right now, at all.  If people are interested in the books I suggested, we could certainly discuss them on the nonfiction forum instead.  But we'd hardly be disrupting anything over here.

I'm just not interested in broad topics like Chinese history or ancient Egypt.  Catherine the Great - well, I did read a bio about her many years ago, but she's not as intriguing as other queens (or Tsarinas, in Catherine's case), IMO.  I do love to read biographies about royalty, especially about women. 



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on April 16, 2008, 04:05:53 PM
I'm not interested in reading Ghost Wars by Steve Coll since Chalmers Johnson has covered this material exhaustively in his triolgy, Blowback, The Sorrows of Empire, Nemesis, all of which I have read (and am now reading Nemesis again.)

I have Walls The Glass House on my list of things to get from the library but haven't done it so far.  Don't recall now why I listed it, she was a reporter?  I read lots of memoirs, though.

Reading is such a private thing, I think.  It's hard to get a consensus on a book to discuss.  Take the Chinese suggestion for instance.  I don't read much fiction but the only Chinese writing I enjoy IS fiction, like Ha Jin and another fellow whose name I can't recall right now.

Talk about early history of the world, Mark Kurlansky's Salt fills the bill on THAT.  You can look high and low and not find a book more complete world history than that one.  Plain old salt has touched every facit of economic, social, and political life of all the world's populations, right from the git-go.

Anyway, I Amazon all the titles you all bring up that I'm not familiar with.  My reading tastes are just slightly askew to what most Melba-ites read so that I seldom "link up."

Something to consider if you want to know the history behind the "why" the U.S. will NEVER find any kind of VICTORY in Iraq (or any other country in that area that we invade for DEMOCRACY,) read Janet Wallach's biography of Gertrude Bell, Desert Queen, July 14,1868-July 11,1926. The "why" of things gone wrong in Iraq today is all there.

Take care, all you book readers you.  Tempt me with something.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 16, 2008, 04:52:41 PM
Why does a book discussion have to have a leader?

Good question - one for which I don't have an answer.

But I would hate to have people buy a book thinking it was going to be discussed and then nobody shows up for a discussion.



current events ARE history in the making

Reagan's decision to help OBL and to create al-Qaeda goes back to 1980 or 28 years.  That's historical enough for me as it is for most folks.

Perhaps in another time some folks will take more interest in Coll.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on April 18, 2008, 12:12:19 AM
I did express an interest in either Coll book and Gertrude Bell is a character I'd love to read about, but am immersed in case for which I must read and summarize relevant parts of many volumes of trial transcript on a tight court deadline (filling in for a co-worker who had to go out on leave of a sudden), so reading for other than work is problematical.  Sorry, hope to be able to join one of these days. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on April 18, 2008, 12:27:34 AM
Than,

What may be historical enough for you does not lead to the conclusion that it is history enough for "most" folks. It certainly would not be history enough for any of the elderly H-Net mailing lists which have strick guidelines between what is history and what is current events. This forum is not led by "true historians", so the definition of what is history and what isn't seems to be based on whatever ideas hit.

I think it was Dessie (apologies if wrong) who pointed out that Mark Kurlansky's book SALT, is an excellent book on the history of the world from a unique perspective. I had a brief discussion on the old topic of the discovery of the new world with a grandmother yesterday at the library. She was familiar with the possibility that Lief Erikson preceded Columbus by a long time, but had not yet read about the Chinese. I don't think the library has that book, but I got her interested in finding it. I didn't mention the possibility of the long-lasting colonies of the Albans/Scots prior to Lief Erickson. I get the impression that the oldsters are as open to new ideas in History as much and maybe more than the young folks. No insult intended.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 18, 2008, 12:41:07 AM
``No insult intended.``


No big deal. I work with a lot of young people and when I discuss events from 1980 or thereabouts (most of them  weren't even born yet) they think I'm talking aobut ancient history.

Anyways, back to American history for me. ;)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on April 18, 2008, 04:20:29 AM
I do have a copy of Coll's, The Bin Ladens....


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 18, 2008, 10:14:32 AM
Look, weezo, I have a bachelor's in history, and I can tell you right now that any event taking place 10 or 20 years ago is indeed considered history by the academic community - what "most folks" think is irrelevant.  I took many modern history courses and they took you right up to present or maybe 10 to 15 years in the past.

I can't get over your notion that a certain book may not be "historical enough" to discuss here.  The question as to whether or not the book itself is world history or not is more understandable, except for the fact that there's no discussion going on over here at all, so what difference does it make?  I could argue with you that a biography isn't world history, either, you know.  Of course, I wouldn't do that, because it's silly, but I'm trying ot make a point about splitting hairs.  Are you saying we either read books you approve of or there should be no discussion, period?  Please!

I give up - obviously there will be no book discussion over here now or anytime in the near future.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on April 18, 2008, 10:22:58 AM
Dessie,

If others on here want to discuss a book that I don't care to read, I am not stopping them. As I have said many time, my readings in history are preparatory to writing stories/books for children. If reading a book is not going to lead to a story, it is not how I want to spend my money or my time. Sorry if that is not agreeable to you.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 18, 2008, 10:43:30 AM
Well I have no problem with that, weezo.  I'm not an unreasonable person, and I certainly wouldn't try to force anyone to read a book they're not interested in.  I just don't understand all the remarks about whether or not a book is world history or even history according to your definitions.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on April 18, 2008, 10:56:54 AM
Dessie,

Am I not entitled to voice my opinion? Would you rather I remained silent when a book is proposed that I don't want to read? Would you prefer that I not tell you what books I would like to read? I bought and am reading Einstein by Isaacson because I mistakenly believed it was going to be discussed here, since it was deemed not American History. Einstein's life is about the twentieth century. It is about a famous person, a genius, who many on here seem to prefer reading about rather than about the ordinary people of a given period of time, which would be my preference.

I would like to make you happy, Dessie, but I am not willing to be silenced and I am not willingt to buy and read things that don't interest or have a use to me.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on April 18, 2008, 11:48:08 AM
Weezo, I see no reason why I should even care about what you want to read. Nor do I expect you to care about what I choose to read. If there's a particular book you want to discuss, instead of yammering about it, you could just read the book and post something on it. Someone may join in. If no one does, that takes nothing away from what you got out of reading it. If having others read along with you is the only way you will bother with the book, then the book itself is probably not worth your time and effort.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 18, 2008, 12:09:00 PM
I'm not trying to silence you nor am I trying to get you to read something you don't care to read.  It just makes it really difficult to get anything going over here with you going on and on about whether you think the book qualifies as a world history topic or history at all.  This is your opinion, which you're entitled to, but you express it in such a way, and so repeatedly I might add, that you probably intimidate others who may just want to read and discuss the thing.  I don't think it's polite to launch into a diatribe and a major argument when someone suggests a book you don't want to read for whatever reason - it's just bad form.  It stops discussions from happening, which is what this forum is for.

You're really so opinionated it's just ridiculous, and I've noticed here and in other forums that you seem to feel your opinons represent the opinons of others and that your opinons are absolutely correct, regardless of whether they're informed or not, and you never seem to let a matter rest.  You will argue til the cows come home about it.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 18, 2008, 12:13:46 PM
caclark -

I am starting to really miss the old nonfiction and European history forums on the old NYT forums!  God, it's like pulling teeth trying to get a reading going over here lately.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 18, 2008, 12:16:22 PM
I'm going to email dzimas and see if he'll join us over here - he used to participate in book discussions a lot. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on April 18, 2008, 12:23:32 PM
Desdemona...I suspect Dzimas will absolutely love discussing a book on the bin Ladens.  I don't think I would read the book, but I will certainly follow the discussion.  My guess is that it will be quite passionate.  Reading the above posts, it seems you have yourself, Clark, Thanatopsy, Nytemps, Bob, Madupont...if Dzimas comes on, you will have seven people.  Sounds promising.  Hope you are able to get it going.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on April 18, 2008, 01:27:11 PM
I'd be in for either the Bin Laden or Krakauer/LDS book.  And I'd actually, you know, read the book and stuff.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 18, 2008, 02:13:59 PM
Thanks, Laurie.

harrie -

I will definitely discuss Krakauer's Under the Banner of heaven anytime.  I've read the book twice, and will get it out and review it if you'll just say when.  We could discuss that in nonfiction - I think that's the more appropriate venue.  That way we could also try to get something started over here.

Want me to make an announcement over there?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 18, 2008, 03:01:03 PM
A condensced article appropos the Fundamentalist Mormon topic and the prospects of reading the Krakauer book on that subject:
http://www.slate.com/id/2189275/?GT1=38001


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on April 18, 2008, 11:52:52 PM
Quote
Would you rather I remained silent when a book is proposed that I don't want to read?

Hope no one gets hurty feelings but this seems quite logical to me, at least it's what I do, or refrain from doing. 

I'll be able to join a discussion of the book on the bin Laden family if it occurs in a few weeks.  In the meantime, I'd certainly be interested in what others glean from reading/ have to say about the LDS in light of recent news. I think the way the beliefs of religious sects develop is very interesting, sociologically speaking.  I mean, what beliefs contribute to the survival or growth of the group and how does the society at large view them?  What are the limits of freedom of belief, association, etc.?  Are people free to raise their children in accordance with their beliefs if those children are not harmed? 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on April 19, 2008, 10:21:52 AM
nytempsperdu

I watched until quite late last night as further "revelations" floated to the top, such as the raid may really have been staged based on the hoax of some woman pretending to be an adolescent  locked in the basement but having a cell-phone on her person with which to make allegations.

Secondly, there were a couple of women who  previously had escaped(actually, I think there were three, as one had a higher position officially, either as a lawyer or a judge(?) -- one of whom seems to be a case worker and is somewhat older as the mother of 8 children.

The younger woman has been writing on the subject, sorry I don't have her name, but they both are very informative about breaking away, what it took,i.e.the straw that broke the camel's back, the subterfuge necessary to flee, the after-effects that sometimes surface years later that still require therapy long after the initial escape into another value-system.

The testing going on at present is really in order to make the charges stick via the DNA proof; once you have the child of a particular mother and you merely subtract the child's age from the mother's age, you have definite proof of child abuse aka rape: sexual abuse of an underage female.

The two women mentioned above both indicate that the men, who commit the above acts back at the compound, know exactly what they are doing, it's a privileged way of life for them, and they intend to keep it that way. 

They also say,as women, that beyond their own experience, they know nothing about the other compounds that "are out there" off in the desert, of which there are many, because they never were at liberty from their own compound.

Of course, looking over the dresses and the hairdos, as the women, from the polygynous marriage to the prophet, come and go in groups where they are detained, quite often walking two by two in lines the way we used to as school children, the irony to me is having watched the series Big Love on HBO which was a delightful series about the many issues that arise in the modern state of Utah when an over-emphasis on religion prevails; and never for a moment realizing that the situation prevails at present to the degree that it does.

On the past situation in the books that were reviewed in The New York Review of Books,in regard to the Krakauer material and relevent other titles, I posted these in entirety  for Yankguy, I think it was who had asked about the situation.   I suppose it is still somewhere at length in non-fiction and this is quite long ago.

NYRB will usually place an "e-mail this article" on anything that warrants it, and has even expanded that availability from one to three of your friends; but I think it was the wording of the question, whether from Yankguy or someone else inquiring not just if the book or books were a good read but, specifically, with the presentation of an actual likely candidate on the ticket for nomination in the election, particularly as it was pointed out, unless a nominee can answer the question about the historic massacre, the evident violence as contrary to the religious "stance", is it wise that they be on the ballot?

That cinched that I ought post the information, as previously I had run into further evidence of rather thoughtless gratuitous behaviour in the missionary work of Mormons at the time of the political lead up to the Second World War in Europe, during some timely blog that The New York Times had many responses to about the candidates and the religious questions.  I had read the case of a young German Mormon whose safety was in jeopardy when Hitler had proclaimed which religious opinions were permitted while any others were not. This boy might have been able to get to the Nederlands but there were either passport problems or occupation had already been underway there; so, he had ended by being beheaded, although he was a minor in age, because at the time Adolf Hitler, was particularly mentally imbalanced in his personal self-regard and desire for complete obedience to his authority,seldom rescinded a death warrant against political agitators most of whom were decapitated or hung, quite a few of them very young people really stuck in Germany with nowhere to go. (the Harnack case of an American who married a German and met this fate although our embassy members were released, was material that I posted originally to do with a discussion on the last Norman Mailer novel),
 The Castle in the Forest: A Novel 
 

But, re: The Bin Ladens, An Arabian Family in the American Century,
by Steve Coll, I wouldn't possibly have done reading it in a few weeks: 671 pages!  Coll got me when he published the first article in The New Yorker some years ago on the education of Osama bin Laden.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on April 19, 2008, 10:40:00 AM
I'm going to email dzimas and see if he'll join us over here - he used to participate in book discussions a lot. 


re: Dzimas, he seems quite  stuck with responses to be made daily in Campaign forum at this point, as we have one or two spinners who, as Dzimas puts it:"filibuster the forum" arbitrarily with some very bigoted nonsense if they can get away it.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on April 19, 2008, 10:47:21 AM
A condensced article appropos the Fundamentalist Mormon topic and the prospects of reading the Krakauer book on that subject:
http://www.slate.com/id/2189275/?GT1=38001


I momentarily forgot until clicking your link, Jessop was a common name in my grandmother's neighborhood in my childhood. As I recall, she did not want me playing with "the Jessops'' and would say something to the effect,"they are too old for you to play with anyway...."


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on April 19, 2008, 12:00:23 PM
Steve Coll talks about his bin Laden book on C-span2, Saturday, April 19, at 10:00 PM Eastern Time for 56 minutes.  This program will air again on Sunday, April 20, at 6:00 PM EST and at 9:00 PM EST.  You'll have to adjust for your own time zone.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on April 19, 2008, 02:24:41 PM
Great, thanks donot!  I heard him on NPR a short time back but will gladly do so again.

Re LDS history, my abstract questions about children not being harmed certainly did not apply to those in the compound in Texas, about which I do wonder. Now that the lawbreaking men are separated from their victims, why must the victims--mothers and children--be separated from each other by the state and presumably put into foster homes?  That is a question for another forum, apologies for digressing.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 19, 2008, 03:10:28 PM
I don't see anything wrong with scheduling the discussion to take place in say a month's time, nytempsperdu.  I'll do my best to catch Coll on TV tonight.  Could be interesting. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on April 19, 2008, 04:18:37 PM
harrie -

I will definitely discuss Krakauer's Under the Banner of heaven anytime.  I've read the book twice, and will get it out and review it if you'll just say when.  We could discuss that in nonfiction - I think that's the more appropriate venue.  That way we could also try to get something started over here.

Want me to make an announcement over there?

Sure, if you like -- though I'd be up for the Bin Ladens in a couple weeks as well.  I will have to get both books, which I won't be able to do until this coming week.  (I'm reading the stuff from the link you so kindly provided.)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on April 20, 2008, 03:59:36 AM
Desdemona...I suspect Dzimas will absolutely love discussing a book on the bin Ladens.  I don't think I would read the book, but I will certainly follow the discussion.  My guess is that it will be quite passionate.  Reading the above posts, it seems you have yourself, Clark, Thanatopsy, Nytemps, Bob, Madupont...if Dzimas comes on, you will have seven people.  Sounds promising.  Hope you are able to get it going.

Don't be so sure, hoffman, although I have to admit Stephen Coll's book on The Bin Ladens sounds interesting and exhaustive (688 pages).  I have a couple of other books on the region I've been meaning to read, Stephen Kinzer's All the Shah's Men and Gordon and Shapiro's Allies at War,

http://www.amazon.com/All-Shahs-Men-American-Middle/dp/047018549X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208678244&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Allies-At-War-America-Europe/dp/0071441204/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208678286&sr=1-1

both of which are a little thinner, if that has any bearing on discussion.  But I might be game for The Bin Ladens if a consensus has already been reached.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on April 20, 2008, 12:29:54 PM
LOL....688 pages, there is that.  Seems like a discussion that would be right up your alley, though.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on April 20, 2008, 05:07:58 PM
Reminder: Stephen Coll  6 PM Eastern Time CSPAN II  --  The Bin Ladens


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 20, 2008, 05:19:06 PM
Reminder: Stephen Coll  6 PM Eastern Time CSPAN II  --  The Bin Ladens


I watched the initial broadcast of that discussion last night.  Needless to say, it was quite illuminating.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on April 21, 2008, 10:33:58 AM
thanatopsy,

Tell me more; I didn't know it was on, although it stands to reason it would be. The book was just released and when I read the excerpts, I knew that I had to read it.

Frankly, I was interested not only because of the first Coll piece that The New Yorker published which my European colleagues told me about because it covered Osama Bin Laden's elementary education in a private boys' school and his impressions upon his first visit to the US; but, in the decade between 1987 and 1997 in the Princeton environs, Saudi Arabians were everywhere on the streets, as were Afghanis.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 21, 2008, 11:18:25 AM
Okay - so it sounds like we have several people who have committed to the Coll discussion.  Bob, I assume you're interested based on what you've said.  Donot has the book already, so I assume we can count on him, then there's nytempsperdu and harrie.  Dzimas says he'll do it once we've committed.  Thanatopsy, are you in? 

I'll order the Bin Ladens book today - there, I've committed.  So we have 6 committments at this point including me, so I'd say we have a go, right everyone?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 21, 2008, 11:20:11 AM
nytemps -

Quote
Re LDS history, my abstract questions about children not being harmed certainly did not apply to those in the compound in Texas, about which I do wonder. Now that the lawbreaking men are separated from their victims, why must the victims--mothers and children--be separated from each other by the state and presumably put into foster homes?  That is a question for another forum, apologies for digressing.

Let's talk about that on the nonfiction board.  I'm really interested in the topic, and Under the Banner of Heaven is such a great backdrop to what's going on right now in Texas.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 21, 2008, 11:26:47 AM
This Coll book is quite a tome.  What do you guys think a reasonable time period is to give everyone time to finish almost 700 pages?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on April 21, 2008, 11:38:57 AM
Des, no I do not have the Coll book on the bin Ladens, and no I won't be part of the discussion.  But I will look forward with great interest the discussion the five of you have on this book. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 21, 2008, 12:08:39 PM
Oh, sorry, donot - I thought you had mentioned that you had the book. 

Okay, before I order this thing, would all you guys who plan to read it, please say "Aye" or something?  It's still hardbound and I'll probably order it, so I'd like to get confirmation before I do that.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 21, 2008, 03:03:03 PM
Steve Coll:

http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9306&SectionName=After%20Words&PlayMedia=Yes


Interesting comment on the Bin Ladens when they went from Yemen to Saudi Arabia -- by the standards of that time, they were "liberals"! And unlike the Saudis who were elitist, the Bin Ladens were the types who worked their way up the ladder of society. They never really fitted in with the Saudis and perhaps this is why OBL always felt like an outsider and was inspired to be such a rebel.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 21, 2008, 03:07:55 PM
Thanatopsy, are you in?


Actually, I was leaning more towards the Reagan book by Coll and sent a request to my library for it.  But if a discussion is agreed to, I can order the Bin Laden book as well.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on April 21, 2008, 05:50:10 PM
Desdemona:

I'm in....


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on April 21, 2008, 06:38:18 PM
Steve Coll:

http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9306&SectionName=After%20Words&PlayMedia=Yes


Interesting comment on the Bin Ladens when they went from Yemen to Saudi Arabia -- by the standards of that time, they were "liberals"! And unlike the Saudis who were elitist, the Bin Ladens were the types who worked their way up the ladder of society. They never really fitted in with the Saudis and perhaps this is why OBL always felt like an outsider and was inspired to be such a rebel.


Not certain that people much cared in terms of "liberals" or "elitists", although it might be defined that way by the British.  Coll describes something a bit more as, on the one hand you have the royal family and those they rule; and then the bin Ladens wandered in from the desert of Yemen, people who worked with their hands for a living. They ingratiated themselves with the Ibn Saud household by doing all their projects. Bin Ladens, had they been around when the Egyptians were "royals", would have been the guys who showed the design plans for the Pyramids that they could have built by such and such a date.

As a result, as the family wealth increased and they went on vacations to Switzerland, it is obvious that they emulated the Saudi royal family in everyway possible. They were now nouveau riches but on the "upscale" doing anything Saudi money could buy. This is not unusual in that part of the world.

According to Coll, who had already written that previous book discussed at nytimes.com on the CIA, Oil,Afghanistan, Bush and you know who..., Osama bin Laden became a rebel in the midst of liberating Afghanistan when he saw the light and got the message.  He realized perhaps before anyone else that GHW Bush was not such a nice guy and that one should distance themself. It was a great awakening.  The seed had been planted, of course, years before when he was a school boy playing soccer; and he'd also been to the US and had experiences as only young men can have where they see the difference between  the ideals that they have been told about and the reality that they experience on the spot that reveals a side of things that makes them feel foolish.

Anyway, while women in Afghanistan took to visiting what they called,"the Arab cemetery", where the fallen were buried who were volunteers in the fighting to liberate Afghanistan from the Russians, because they believed in miraculous cures if one went to pray there and gathered together a little dirt from the graves,  Osama more mystical than ever, whether or not he cursed Bush, swore a vow to take the mujahidin in jihad  to likewise liberate the Muslims being killed in the former Yugoslavia.

By the time he was displaced from the western shore of the Red Sea (Yemen is by the way on the eastern side in the lower tip of the peninsula before you travel east to Oman and the Persian Gulf, and by some quirk of fate was home to actual wandering tribes of Yemeni Jews who for whatever reason may have never made their way to Jordan when and with the "parting of the Red Sea" by Moses; either that or they are even older and never went down into Egypt but continue to live in the way of the "Fathers", dwelling in tents.  Most were brought out by airlift to Israel , as were Ethiopian Jews, but were treated more than rather shabbily, some are still being treated badly here in the US.) anyway,post digression, it was probably quite evident to Bin Laden that rather than thinking of himself as the family 'rebel', if he stuck it out in Sudan, it would eventually be discovered that he was the long awaited Mahdi who would rule the world  before it ended.  That's when he was disowned by the family who were attempting to remain on good terms with the family of Ibn Saud. So, maybe he was "the black sheep" but somebody ruined his plans by having him shoved out of Sudan.  We are led to believe that his mother firmly believed in his calling and that he nurtured that belief, which is the least a son can do who is born into a largely polygynous family.  If I say
"millions" believe, that would sound too strong, so may I just say, "oodles" of people? It  has been seen before, and probably will be seen again, so why not suppose that now was just as good a time as any.

I think that I shall just plod my way through this tome  like a camel spreading its special feet  on the sand. So far, I know about his brother, the party animal, who died like so many men in that part of the world from being able to have airplanes for toys; and the bin Laden boys party a lot. What is most amazing are the peculiar Americans who were invited to go to parties given for them by our administrations  who wanted what Bushes and others before and after considered the best representation of "an American  Establishment".

                      


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 22, 2008, 09:13:52 AM
Okay, Bob - if you're in, I'm in.  I have to see if I can get the book from the library - called yesterday and so far, so good.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on April 22, 2008, 09:49:10 AM
I've got the Coll book -- it's only 579 pages of reading with several pages of acknowledgements in the back (nowhere near 700 pages).  I double-checked title and author, and everything matches up; if there's another edition of this that I should have, which I can't imagine because it's a new-ish release, please let me know.  Thanks!

So a belated "Aye" -- I'm in.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 22, 2008, 10:10:25 AM
Great, harrie!  I assume the book is a 1st edition since it was just published this month.

I'm looking forward to this!   Let me get my hands on the book - it's a little more than I can afford at the moment (thanks to the austerity plan I'm on), so I have to get it at the library - I can probably get it within the next day or so and will start then.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on April 22, 2008, 10:59:34 AM
I'm in a cash/credit crunch too, which looks to get crunchier.  But on a whim, I googled "Barnes Noble coupon" and found a 20% coupon -- not much, but enough to convince me it was a sign.  (Also grabbed the Krakauer book while I was there.)  Will try to start it tonight, even with the Caps playing Game 7.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 22, 2008, 11:25:57 AM
Okay - the library is holding a copy for me - plan to go pick it up tonight.

Harrie, let me know when you start the Krakauer novel so I can crack that one, too.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 23, 2008, 04:05:22 PM
I have The Bin Ladens in my hot little hands - I'll be starting it tonight.  The isn't that long, so I would think a month out would be a good time to start the discussion. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on April 23, 2008, 04:47:51 PM
I just bought the book myself--will start reading it after I finish POLK--an excellent bio of the much forgotten President.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 24, 2008, 09:28:29 AM
I started The Bin Ladens last night - it's very interesting and Coll's narrative style is much better than in Ghost Wars.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 24, 2008, 10:27:00 PM

Damn it!   [email protected]#$%$#@!!


I started to read Ghost Wars but the effing print is too small for my weak eyes and had to give up reading it.

Perhaps I can get an audio version of the book.  I'll  try to get The Bin Ladens but if the print is too small I'll have to pass up reading it as well.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on April 25, 2008, 12:06:34 AM
Thanatopsy,

You, too? That problem has just descended upon me. i thought that I had it licked about a year ago, by enlarging the print on the computer and buying page-sized magnifying sheets for reading my dictionary.  Then, one day,
                     I couldn't read the harmful ingredients on the cans and packages from the supermarket!


The print for The Bin Ladens is a relatively comfortable size for me compared to reading paperbacks which will soon be off my agenda. Another reason that I seldom buy books over the internet unless I know the publisher's  inclinations.  I liked when I could just order a book from an academic press and they would rush me my order from a "Fulfillment Center"; now most commercial publishers tell you to place your order with your local franchise super-store where the majority of the staff do not know how to find the book, even after you give them all the information after looking that up yourself.

It wasn't so long ago when I was young and truly impressed that second hand book dealers of my acquaintance, when you asked about the possibility of finding a book, would say,"Oh, yes....", they knew exactly where to find it, would give you a call and ask if you wanted to complete the transaction, and the cost for this convenience was a mere pittance.

Take a look at the book by Coll, if you can and size it up.

Desdemona222b, I had the same impression about Steve Coll's "narrative style".  I was often lost and confused in Ghost Wars; but, it is no wonder.   It was intended that we be confused about all the motivations; and it certainly was not  because of Steve Coll as a journalist.  So I'm happy as can be that he has about five books within his accomplished grasp by now.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 25, 2008, 08:18:23 AM

... just another case of premature old age (speaking for myself, of course). :'(


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 25, 2008, 09:13:16 AM

Damn it!   [email protected]#$%$#@!!


I started to read Ghost Wars but the effing print is too small for my weak eyes and had to give up reading it.

Perhaps I can get an audio version of the book.  I'll  try to get The Bin Ladens but if the print is too small I'll have to pass up reading it as well.

Thanotopsy -

The print is large enough for an old lady like me to read very easily - lots of white space, very nicely done.  I think you'll be able to deal nicely with it, so don't be discouraged.

Hey, I'm delighted you're going to read the Bin Laden book with us!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on April 25, 2008, 09:54:44 AM
Steve Coll discussing his bin Laden book will be rebroadcast on C-span2 at 12:00 noon EST on Sunday.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: caclark on April 25, 2008, 12:48:31 PM
harrie & desdemona,

If you’re interested in the polygamy topic, you might enjoy Mormon Polygamy: A History, by Richard A. VanWagoner. It’s the best study on the subject that I’ve read. It’s about 200 pages and without lurid sensationalism.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0941214796/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on April 25, 2008, 02:26:08 PM
Steve Coll discussing his bin Laden book will be rebroadcast on C-span2 at 12:00 noon EST on Sunday.


And you may not believe this by Bill Moyers has invited Reverend Wright of Chicago's Trinity church to appear and speak on his show tonight 9:00 East Coast Time. Check your local listing!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on April 25, 2008, 02:35:04 PM
Thanks for the recommendation, clark. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 25, 2008, 05:04:14 PM
"I think you'll be able to deal nicely with it, so don't be discouraged."


Hi Des!

I managed to read through the first 25 pages today while commuting to/from work.  The contents were just too compelling to give up on the book so quickly.

And I will request a copy of Bin Laden right away. 

See ya ............



Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on April 26, 2008, 04:48:32 PM
All copies of Coll's The Bin Ladens were quickly snapped up by library patrons savvier (or with more free time) than I, though I did manage to get the bio of Gertrude Bell, and thanks for recommending it, donot.  I'll still see if I can scrounge up a copy of the Coll (I had a B&N gift card at C'mas...hope I can find it) and be in on at least some part of the discussion.

I thought I'd get a break after completing work on home invasion robbery/stabbing case--folks, don't go off camping and leave your 20-year-old in charge of the house for a week, esp. if he likes to throw parties & invite all kinds of strangers, including many heavily adorned with gang tattoos.  The case had short court deadlines and got dumped on my team when the assigned atty (who had done no work on it for the 3 months since it came in) went on leave, supposedly to help his ailing mom, but really to interview for academic positions; he departs next week to teach at a law school, where his post-lunch beer breath may go unnoticed (yeah, yeah, give this cat a saucer of milk...)  As I say, I thought I'd get a break, but have now been assigned to work on a case which oddly enough tangentially involves a law school, of a law student who became obsessed with a classmate, followed her to study in Europe and continued to pursue her back here, entreated her to go out with him, sent her endless text & voicemail messages, and would not be  persuaded that she was uninterested (and would under no circumstances give him some of her unwashed underwear, the bitch)... His 16-mo. prison term for the stalking conviction has been served but he's appealing because, well maybe he doesn't want to comply with conditions of parole (aka qualifications for sainthood) or because as a convicted felon, he will not be able to practice law... 

Still, will try to find Coll & read along with y'all (am not channeling Ogden Nash).


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on April 26, 2008, 05:43:26 PM
Well, ny, "have you no compassion?"

I once got a patient with a very  similar story (this one involved four DUI's). After listening to his tale of woe, I said something  to the effect of "what do you expect me to do?" He said, "have you no compassion?" I said "NO!!"  (He was blaming the courts for his difficulty getting a job because the system gave all those DUI's--"I never hurt anybody, I always drove very carefully.") This guy managed to get two DUI's in 3 hours....


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on April 27, 2008, 01:04:26 AM
Nytemps, oh me, you are in a fix. If you have a Half Price Bookstore in your town, they might have a copy.  Get a clerks help when you go there.  You never know where they've stashed some of the books they have.  So many categories.

Don't be surprised if that gift card from Barnes and Noble has sat around and used up a lot of its face value.  Most gift cards have a "fee" for each month they are not redeemed.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on April 27, 2008, 05:06:00 PM
Bob, 2 DUIs in 3 hours!?!?  Must have been some kind of record.  Yes, I'm truly cold hearted.  I'm sure I should feel sorry for the poor benighted guy--whose name, btw, indicates he or recent family hail from what was once called Mesopotamia, and which those wags on "The Daily Show" call "Mess-O-Potamia.". With centuries of literature and lore, or maybe a culturally ingrained sexism so fundamental as to be unsurmountable, telling him to persist in pursuing his lady love who must someday see the light and be his, he may still be mystified about why he just couldn't catch a break.

Donotremove.  I don't know about using the B&N card online or any attendant "fees," but CA passed laws saying gift cards could not "expire."  Thanks for the warning and the recommendation, though.  In the meantime, I just couldn't resist the Gertrude Bell book, am speeding through it 'til I can get the Coll.  Amazing story of amazing character...never mind, ol' Lawrence of Arabia.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on April 30, 2008, 12:26:33 PM
I had a break through last night.  This may sound very corny but it is one of the few ways to get a real impression of the character so important in history to today's  cultural clash.

With the intention of watching a program on Sundance Channel,"All in This Tea"(which will be repeated on May 2nd), I discovered by a catch in the channel changer that Charlton Heston was puffing up the Nile rather unrecognizably to me that I was in the midst of "Khartoum" last seen in 1966!  It has the usual classically trained British actors of renown playing British statesmen, and I had no idea that Charlton Heston was capable of toothing all those indigenous British characteristics of pronunciation which have to be spat out smartly.  (No, he was not the "character" that I meant, General Charles "Chinese" Gordon)   But, I guess that if he can change places as an American representing a famous Briton,then we should think nothing of the leap that it took for Laurence Olivier to become Mohammed Ahmed,"the Mahdi".

This is not in the category of his grotty version of Othello; but a much more important undertaking, surrounded by actual Sudanese actors and far Blacker extras by the hundreds if not thousands; if you had not seen Larry before this, you would not have known he was not the real Muslim with visions of Mohammed whose mission he must accomplish by praying in every mosque from  Khartoum to Carthage to Mecca to Constantinople by "holy war".

The sheer imposibility of training British Egyptian Army in the handling of camels for such complex position commands of battle formation, when they can't manage ascent and control of light reins,"tet,tet", where the camel gets away with  riding you instead of vice-versa gives you some indication of how hard to be quickly accomplished as the heat dried up and lowered the Nile allowing the Holy Man to cross and capture Khartoum in the massacre.

What I had completely forgotten was that this film was symphonically scored(which is amazingly effective, allowing long interludes of darkened screen to let you know that you are between acts of a Drama),
"reinforced by Frank Cordell's score which is very reminiscent of the music of Edward Elgar and appropriately so. In fact Elgar himself at one point planned to write a symphony on Gordon. In the light of recent world events, this classic confrontation between Western Imperialism and Eastern Islamic fundamentalism makes "Khartoum" more topical than ever."

from, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060588/usercomments


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on April 30, 2008, 08:10:36 PM
All copies of Coll's The Bin Ladens were quickly snapped up by library patrons savvier (or with more free time) than I


Same here in Gooofyland. Luckily, I have a Borders Gift Card and ordered a copy via its version of Amazon. Hopefully, it will arrive before the beginning of Summer.

Meanwhile, I'm reading Coll's Ghost Wars which continues to strain my weak eyes and my limpy arthritic wrist because of its weight. I am also "reading" via audio book Walter Stahr's John Jay: Founding Father.

Very illuminating stuff.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on May 01, 2008, 08:47:31 PM
I'm reading THE BIN LADENS and find it very "readable" and it flows very well.

How's the John Jay book---I took it out of the library a while back but never read it---he, along with Aaron Burr, is a lost founder--little written about and even less appreciated than most of the so called minor figures. His treaty destroyed him, but in in reality he was very influential in his day--he was the equivalent of Secretary of State under the Confederation


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on May 02, 2008, 10:56:40 PM
How's the John Jay book


Quite good. The author's views squares with Isaacson's view on BF, Adams, and Jay's roles in Europe during the turbulent 70s.

Stahr also agrees that Jay has been largely overlooked by historians. One subject that has not been discussed at sufficient length in the book (so far as I have read) is the role of Huguenots in fomenting the Revolution and in the creation of the Union.


Ghost Wars remains ever fascinating though perhaps a bit too detailed.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on May 03, 2008, 12:04:10 AM
Quote
the role of Huguenots in fomenting the Revolution and in the creation of the Union.

That's a unique angle. I hadn't thought in those terms before.

I started GHOST WARS when it first came out, but read only a few pages....after I finish THE BIN LADEN'S I think I'll pick it up again. I see my bookmark is at page 62----I'll have to start it all over again.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 03, 2008, 12:11:59 AM
Oh, yes, Hugenots, a very upsetting people, anti-authoritarian to a fault. Exceedingly subversive and fomenting different ideas of government than you had imagined but I've never been able to get that point across to one argumentative person who doesn't imagine where they came from and where they are now.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on May 05, 2008, 10:38:31 PM
I just finished THE BIN LADENS--its really a well written book, easy to read a full of information. I look forward to the discussion--any start date.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on May 06, 2008, 05:09:36 PM
... I just got my copy this afternoon + won't be ready to discuss it any time soon but will join the  discussion as soon as possible.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on May 08, 2008, 04:32:54 PM
WOW, Bob.  That was FAST!   :o

Than, don't worry, I just got to the part where they're beginning to talk about Osama. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on May 08, 2008, 06:02:45 PM
 :o

... we're on the same page!


But, doggone it, I hate to give up on Ghost Wars.  Don't have the time to read both + I'm a super  slooooooooww reader.

ARGH!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on May 09, 2008, 12:36:52 PM
nytemps -

Have you had a chance to read, or even start The Bin Ladens?

I'm going to try to play catch-up this weekend.  The book isn't nearly as long as I had orginally thought.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on May 10, 2008, 07:44:44 AM
Quote
WOW, Bob.  That was FAST

I found it a very fast "read"  and extremely interesting , especially with regard to the various Saudi Arabian Kings and their thought process. Has anyone ever read the old classic The Kingdom by Robert Lacey--I got a copy from my local library and I think I'll buy a copy. Though it's twenty years old its the best history I ever read regarding the Saud family and the origin of Saudi Arabia


Title: Re: World History
Post by: CaptainCargo on May 12, 2008, 07:13:33 AM
Rest in peace Irena, history should remember you as a true heroine.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on May 12, 2008, 09:55:30 AM
Well, howdy there, Cap!

Bob -

It is interesting reading about the Saud princes, the ethnicity of the Bin Laden family, and other cultural dynamics in Saudi Arabia.  I remember King Faisal from when I was a child.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on May 12, 2008, 10:15:17 AM
Also, it's pretty amazing that Osama was so placid and quiet as a child.  Everyone thought he was perfect.  Talk about still waters running deep!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: CaptainCargo on May 12, 2008, 10:56:47 AM
Well, howdy there, Cap!

Bob -

It is interesting reading about the Saud princes, the ethnicity of the Bin Laden family, and other cultural dynamics in Saudi Arabia.  I remember King Faisal from when I was a child.

Howdy back Dez.

I know I never come here, but I felt she should have some recognition for the thousands of children she saved. History all to often remembers the bad but forgets the good. Even in her own country she was virtually unknown and unrecognized for decades.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on May 12, 2008, 03:17:59 PM
Hey, any and all new faces are welcome.   :)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 12, 2008, 04:57:05 PM
"Subject: Please read: Big Virus coming

[ THIS IS WHAT THE RUSSIANS USED IN ESTONIA LAST YEAR TO BURN OUT COMPUTERS' MEMORY CENTERS.  YOU WOULD HAVE TO BUY ANOTHER COMPUTER IF YOU OPEN  WHAT IS DESCRIBED AS FAMILIAR DIRECTIONS TO GO TO A LINK TO OPEN YOUR POSTCARD FROM A FAMILY MEMBER.  THIS IS A SCARY TEST RUN.]


> Here is the Snopes page  http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/postcard.asp
>>
>> I checked Snopes (URL above:), and it is for real!!
>>
>> Get this E-mail message sent around to your contacts ASAP.
>>
>> PLEASE FORWARD THIS WARNING AMONG FRIENDS, FAMILY AND CONTACTS!
>>
>> You should be alert during the next few days. Do not open any
>>message with an attachment entitled 'POSTCARD,' regardless of who sent it
>>to you. It is a virus which opens A POSTCARD IMAGE, which 'burns' the whole
>>hard disc C of your computer.
>>
>> This virus will be received from someone who has your e-mail
>>address in his/her contact list. This is the reason why you need to send
>>this e-mail to all your contacts It is better to receive this message 25
>>times than to receive the virus and open it.
>>
>> If you receive a mail called' POSTCARD,' even though sent to you
>>by a friend, do not open it! Shut down your computer immediately.
>>
>> This is the worst virus announced by CNN. It has been classified
>>by Microsoft as the most destructive virus ever. This virus was discovered
>>by McAfee yesterday, and there is no repair yet for this kind of virus.
>>This virus simply destroys the Zero Sector of the Hard Disc, where the
>>vital information is kept.
>>
>> COPY THIS E-MAIL, AND SEND IT TO YOUR FRIENDS. REMEMBER: IF YOU
>>SEND IT TO THEM, YOU WILL BENEFIT ALL OF US.
>>
>> Snopes lists all the names it could come in."


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on May 12, 2008, 11:13:20 PM
Hi Desdemona,  I do indeed have The Bin Ladens in hand, but must confess I have been unable to tear myself away from the Gertrude Bell bio--have been gripped and recommend it heartily, even if the author has a more than somewhat pro-imperialist attitude I definitely don't share (and if she's much more interested in clothing and other accoutrements than I).  Chapters 11 et seq have so much valuable info on the founding of Iraq that I just had to continue, even at risk of lagging behind in the discussion of the Coll book.

I still hope to catch up with all y'all, though, and thanks for askin'


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on May 13, 2008, 10:19:25 AM
Okay - I'm moving through it fairly slowly myself.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on May 16, 2008, 05:06:42 AM
Don't mean to butt in, but Simon Winchester has a fascinating new book on the shelves,

The Man Who Loved China: The Fantastic Story of the Eccentric Scientist Who Unlocked the Mysteries of the Middle Kingdom

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Loved-China-Fantastic/dp/0060884592

Maybe we could put it in the "on deck" circle?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on May 16, 2008, 05:38:26 AM
Dzimas, thanks for putting that up.  Simon Winchester had a piece on the Opinion page at the NYT yesterday about how China had been so ahead of the curve in science and technologies of all sorts and then "dropped out."  One of the reasons there is so much damage, with such great loss of life, in the recent earthquake is the simple fact that the cement used for buildings was not reinforced with rebar and mesh.  A geologist-engineer (in another article I read somewhere) said it broke his heart when he was watching the pictures coming out of the earthquake area and he realized he was seeing cement with no reinforcing whatsoever.  Shameful, needless loss of life, he said.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 16, 2008, 12:46:09 PM
Thanks, Donotremove, I only managed one section of nytimes yesterday and that I'm still on; the huge flap about Bush in the Knesset embarrassing Americans with his inadequacy to behave in polite society. I still have my heading to flick on the nytimes for yesterday and read the Opinion page article that you mentioned.

And mutual appreciation to Dzimas for instantly looking up the connection to a book that tells me you remembered my comments on Joseph Needham's Encyclopedia of the Sciences in China, for a correct estimation of their contribution to human civilization.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on May 17, 2008, 03:30:23 PM
Quote
I remember King Faisal from when I was a child.

I just remembered the name from Lawrence of Arabia and came across it again in the Gertrude Bell bio.  I think there must have been more than one by this name as you surely were not a child in the 1920s, des!

The Bell bio. features many interesting characters like Faisal, ibn Saud, T.E. Lawrence, etc. So much of the history of the establishment of the British mandate reads like an analysis of current bad policies of the West in the East that I find myself sighing that old "why can't we ever learn" sigh.  (Yes, one of the factors--minor, but still-- in my leaving the job of teaching history was the realization that we do not learn from it.) 

Still, fascinating reading...will keep on at least through Coll's book.  And for later on, the new Simon Winchester does look interesting and I could overlook his gee-whiz journalistic style to explore the subject. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on May 17, 2008, 05:57:58 PM
Faisal was King of Saudi Arabia in the 60's and 70's and was assassinated if I recall. We was a Saud (as were all Saudi kings so far---all had the same father--and they've ruled from the thirties--an extraordinary phenomenon---Ibn Saud fathered about five kings so far).

The Faisal in Gertrude Bell's biography was a hapless figure who was King of Syria and ousted (fired is more like it) and then went on to become King of Iraq in the twenties----he was Hashimite---and wasn't very good at ruling. He was sort of a leftover family member who was hard to place.The Bell biography gives a good rendition of his wanderings and poor kingships.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on May 18, 2008, 01:55:56 AM
No, the Faisal I referred to was King of Iraq beginning in 1922, and was not of the Saud family.  The Ibn Saud that came to power at the time of the post-WWI Arab revolt was of a different clan/tribe than Faisal and was of the Wahabbist (strict, fundamentalist) brand of Islam, whereas Faisal's religion seems less important than his leadership abilities in uniting various Bedouin tribes behind him in the push for the oft-promised and oft-betrayed goal of Arab self-determination.  He also seems to have had "father issues" with his tyrannical old man Hussain, maybe even sibling issues with brothers Ali & Abdullah.  Though he commanded the enduring  affection of Bell and others, he was to prove less able at using power than at gaining it.

This passage on page 371 of the Bell bio. caught my eye:
"Modern critics of the procedures whereby the British were to gain support for the selection of Faisal as king might reflect on the much vaunted democracy of today.  Every European country has its own brand of democracy.  At the time of writing, [book publ. in 2006] the "free and fair" election system has produced in Britain a government that only 36 percent of the voters wanted; in the United States, it is not the weight of numbers that carries an election, but the vote for marginal interests."    Ouch?

OK, feeling I have a much clearer picture than before [not hard to do, actually] of modern events in the region, am now ready for forging on to Coll.   

   


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 18, 2008, 02:59:49 AM
nytempspedu,re:#645

I thought Simon Winchester's "gee whiz" style was a little supercilious to take to Needham.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on May 18, 2008, 06:49:23 AM
Sorrry I created some confusion. I liked the Bell Biography. There is a book out now which struck my eye yesterday... GHANDI AND CHURCHILL. That sounds irresistible. I had the same urge I had when I saw the Bell book.

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=2-9780553804638-0


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on May 21, 2008, 10:04:43 AM
I just remembered the name from Lawrence of Arabia and came across it again in the Gertrude Bell bio.  I think there must have been more than one by this name as you surely were not a child in the 1920s, des!

Glad you recognize that I'm not in my 80s!   ;D


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on May 23, 2008, 10:03:27 AM
I should be able to finish The Bin Ladens this weekend.  Anyone besides Bob and me ready to start the discussion next week?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 23, 2008, 01:24:13 PM
Very probably.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on May 23, 2008, 04:49:17 PM
I'm up to about p 220 and can try to add some input.

Meantime, everybody have a terrific Memorial Day weekend!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 23, 2008, 10:38:11 PM
You too, thanatopsy.

I have an apology to make.   I did see Robert Rauschenberg on Charlie Rose, or at least a tape of him  escorting Charlie around one of  R.R.'s retrospectives. So, here's my retrospective: yes, I did think he was an obnoxious young man but, the video tape shown by Rose  clearly showed Rauschenberg several years before his death as the little old guy we might have known he would become, since we are all there now.

In my view, the two of them tromping around in this ill-lit art-space with R.R. talking in a purely inventive way that artists have of discussing art, which is really making conversation with visiting firemen politely because you have learned how to do it  after five decades rather than behaving vaguely superior and putting them down for "not making art" as well, and all of this being said, quite meaninglessly in front of the famous stuffed real goats that I vaguely remember from all those years ago and being recorded for history on video, well, I ask you, is it too late to take back my comments about the turtles with the flashlights strapped to their backs wandering around  on the floor of the darkened Art Museum when the lights were dimmed and out for the artistic effect?

Of course, he wouldn't dare do that now, or rather while he was still alive, because Peter Singer, famous writer on animal rights could get critical.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on May 24, 2008, 09:24:55 PM
I'm into it, trying to sort out Mohamed Bin Laden's construction projects and progeny, confused and amused in about equal parts.  Anyone else sometimes get the feeling it's almost too fantastical?   

I may limp along slightly behind due to taking a time out to correct a deficiency in my reading which I only realized when I found out Twelfth Night is being put on at my kid's h.s.  The last deficiency I corrected was in reading Nectar in a Sieve when her world lit. class did.  I still haven't caught up with Garcia Marquez's Chroncle of a Death Foretold, but am ahead of the game having read Kite Runner which she is to read this summer, as well as The House of the Spirits.  Whew, when they call the class Honors World Lit. they do mean "world."  When I was in h.s. "World Lit." meant...well, English lit., and nothing even bordering on contemporary.     


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 25, 2008, 12:41:29 AM
Have to admit that I don't find it at all fantastical. Although perhaps I should not admit in this day and age, that since about 1960 something early, Muslims pop up in my life, mostly because of their  existence in academia; which means they were more than comfortably well off, to pursue their "goals". One of which is women but that is a minor hobby and could hardly be considered an ambition; over time, after observing enough of their  methods for achieving just what they want, I find myself avoiding contact with them as I would with any unknown "European" or "American" for instance.  Although I have on occasion impromptu  taken the opportunity to  initiate conversation with  a woman who is bravely trying to adapt to a new environment; or with a young father of very small children because they quite often have mixed marriages.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on May 27, 2008, 10:02:48 AM
Bob -

Would you be so kind as to lead the discussion?  I think we're about ready to at least talk about the beginning of the book.

I have to admit that I was completely and totally ignorant about the region before I read this book, not that I'm an expert now.  Things are so drastically different over there that it might as well be another planet.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on May 28, 2008, 10:05:41 PM
"Fantastical" in the scale of oil wealth and what it bought, the projects undertaken, the resources at the command of the dynastic ruling families and those who did their bidding. 

My only memories of anything related was back when I lived in PA there was someone I knew who related tales of Shah Pahlavi's planes-and-weapons purchasing trips to the US, and later when I lived in Ohio sometimes ailing sheikhs would take over whole floors of the Cleveland Clinic for themselves and their traveling wives.  It all seemed slightly unreal...perhaps just as it did when Harrod's was bought by...I forget the name...

It will cease being fantastical and become all too real very shortly, I'm sure.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 29, 2008, 09:22:39 AM
Mohamed al-Fayed, owner of Harrod's (who so far has lost out in his suit against Her Majesty). The English are not very nice you know in their opinion of the place of dark Middle-Easterners in the scheme of things; which causes the dM-E to pretty much resent their treatment when they arrive in the "capital of the Civilized World"(actually, it was a little like Dick and Lynn Cheney treated Secretary of State Colin Powell in Washington).

On the other hand, having seen Ali G. last night interviewing "our own Princess Diana" as we used to say in N.J. about Christy Todd Whitman, who now looks so British past middle-age, due to the Bush administration, perhaps Lady Diana Spencer was tweaking the Queen's nose just a little too much for her own good or for safety's sake.

I do recall, however, having a strange experience, in the first years immediately following 9/11/2001.  When going out to eat in one of those strange establishments designed for tourists, where a Lancaster farm has been made over as a hotel complex with swan ponds and golf course, the little church intact, a building with swimming pool and gymnasium attached to the main hotel with Palm Court of sorts that does Sunday Brunch which you really shouldn't eat.

As I went out to the ladies' room before leaving on a cold Spring morning such as we have now, I encountered a party of Muslims,male and female, waiting with baggage in front of the elevators; they were from India,however. No beards. I received such a glare as I will never forget. But, I have to assume that what occurred was an oversight on the part of the employee who was supposed to be carting the baggage on one of those uprights and handling the delivery from the service lobby to their rooms as guests.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on May 29, 2008, 10:58:52 AM
Maddy, which of the parties glared?  The Muslims or the baggage employee?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 29, 2008, 11:11:00 AM
The Indian Muslims. They had every right to; it was not what they were led to expect.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on May 29, 2008, 12:38:56 PM
Maddy, now I'm even more confused.  Were the Indian Muslims glaring at you, or the baggage clerk?  And why were they glaring?  What had happened?  And how did you know what had happened?  Did you speak?  Did any of the parties speak?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 29, 2008, 03:08:39 PM
No, nobody spoke(other than the men, amongst themselves, waiting for the lift/the elevator, accompanied by their silent glaring wives). But, you are really into this, I can see.

The baggage clerk was not there, which was why they were glaring. I just happened to be passing through.

Which was rather their circumstance as well. Myriads of Indian Muslims or as they were once known as Moslems have emigrated to the US for gosh, it may be as long as five decades. In India, they were the next caste down from Hindu Brahmins(although these too have intermarried)because they were most often in trade, or what we would call business.

They saw the US as the land of opportunity. In India they have since Partition been a minority but intermarriage is common in certain regions like Gujarat, which is why Ben Kingsley got to play Gandhi. (I think you said in another forum or earlier in this one that you had been reading some material on Gandhi. He's all the rage right now. He's been appearing on Broadway as well -- or, rather, the Metropolitan Opera in a Philip Glass opera: Satyagraha, which was the truth movement that Gandhi founded in peaceful resistance against the British).

When they came to Princeton, they were in all sorts of business, mostly the higher end, high tech companies, but other necessities came along with them such as the small convenience store proprietors across the square from me in Hopewell who used to live in Bombay which is now known as Mumbai.  That is how I recognized the travelers in Willow Street, when they glared. The shopkeepers in Hopewell always smiled and worked as a family to afford the luxuries that come with living the suburban lifestyle of special holiday celebrations for daughters and schools for them as well, so they have a social life.

We had other variations as well, the dry-cleaner on the other square near the bank, where you could take feather pillows to be cleaned and stuffed into new linings, they were Egyptian. Again, I had met Egyptian Copts before but the very friendly lady, who was physically akin to Arab women of a certain age, carefully showed me her religious medal at her throat, which in African custom was purest gold.

But these are the signs and insignias that matter and they know it(so it is a little bit like Kipling's, Kim; you are aware, and they are aware, and everybody must remain aware, which is why Kim memorized everything he could glimpse on the jewelers' tray, and then repeat back what he had seen.

Then there was another young woman, very young, that I met at Staples but I no longer remember whether it was there before moving or here after moving as I arrived four years and a quarter before 9/11.  She was allowed to work outside the home but had no idea that she was allowed to have a bank account of her own; as she still wore Muslim Arab traditional clothes, I ended up thinking back later, now, what have I done? This meant, that the husband, who took the check to the bank, would not be amused. What might be good for her to know, at the same time might not be good for her well-being at all.

As to clothes, I also remember before leaving Princeton, when looking for an apartment that took me to Hopewell rather than Kingston (where I had shopped with the Beiler family who are Amish and "go to market" there), I was not surprised to have the landlord be Muslim. I was,  in the hot weather, wearing a t-shirt that was block-printed, much like a prayer-flag, with the Sanskrit letter OM. Good thinking, sure, when it wore out or you changed size, you could hang it on your clothes line exactly like a prayer-flag waving part of a mantra on the breeze; but, good thinking? No, because we clearly communicated, the landlord was from India and he wondered where I got that shirt? I might as well have announced that I was a street person from Kalikshetra(Kolkata), in West Bengal, after the Partition, when Muslims were supposed to go West to Pakistan and a small minority went east where there are no Christians,despite the long British influence, because the the culture there is over two millenia old but nevertheless inspirational to the Beatles.

So meeting Indian Muslims in Lancaster, means they were wearing "western clothes/ not Western clothes". As I learned later, many have been going south to Atlanta, as a more familiar climate,where there were professional job opportunities, and hospitable neighborhoods, Southern hospitality having attracted people who survived Hurricane Katrina as well.  Once settled in a new region, vacations to places not so far away that they've heard about is in the offing, and Lancaster is one of those tourists attractions which I have never completely understood as to why it attracts.  But then, if you  come to look at attractions, rather than people who dress funny, or the farmland, it suddenly becomes obvious  that the landscape is inhabited by a majority of Christians because many of the tourist attractions are based on that premise in a very Biblical way.

The first day that I moved from the farm, I immediately discovered the Indian Muslims on my nearest corner intersection. They occasionally can be seen walking through here, they move in, they move out, some one else moves in, in a constant round.  Two old gentlemen in Indian clothing take walks together in the cool of the evening where ever there are sidewalks and benches.

I'd say the glaring occurred because as a party of tourists they may have felt that despite the place looking grand that it appeared they were bringing their own baggage in from what they may have considered the service-entrance at the rear of the Hotel; and what we used to call the bell-hop(in India, the baggage wallah) was no where in sight.  This could have been complete Lancaster county ineptness on his part; or, as I said, it having been within a time frame shortly after 9/11, he could have been momentarily spooked and made himself scarce.

The only other person who spoke was me. I said, "excuse me", as I was on the way to the ladies' room on the other side of the small lobby( if not for the exit doors would otherwise appear to be a wide hallway to the parking lots) as I went past the ladies and around them to the other side. Of course, they may have been merely scowling that where do husbands get such crazy ideas as traveling all this way by car dragging all this luggage?





Title: Re: World History
Post by: Donotremove on May 29, 2008, 04:31:44 PM
Thanks, Maddy.  Now I understand.  The men were unshaven but they did have on the wrapped head dress?  I was suprised to learn that Indian Muslims never cut their hair (mothers and wives, only, see the hair when they braid it for the men each morning.)  The men have head dress cloth of all colors and choose what color each day.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on May 29, 2008, 04:38:26 PM
Quote
Would you be so kind as to lead the discussion?

Thank You....I'll be able to start on June 1, which is Sunday--just a couple of days away.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 29, 2008, 10:55:34 PM
Donotremove
Thanks, Maddy.  Now I understand.  The men were unshaven but they did have on the wrapped head dress?  I was suprised to learn that Indian Muslims never cut their hair (mothers and wives, only, see the hair when they braid it for the men each morning.)  The men have head dress cloth of all colors and choose what color each day.


Nope. To my understanding those are the Sikhs. Thanatopsy may recall that we had a discussion about that because of a professor of Post-Colonial Literature who taught at Lehigh. In fact, if I recall correctly, even Sikhs had beards at some period; but I may be wrong?  A wonderful story that the professor from Lehigh assigned his on-line students  -- takes place following the assassination of Mrs. Gandhi(Nehru's daughter), an event that I remember.

The story begins between two Sikhs unobtrusively visiting with each other to discuss what is to be done. Because the assassin  of Mrs. Gandhi was a Sikh, they are worried that an anti-Sikh riot will break out and then what is to be done.  The story is entirely recounted in the Anglo-India dialect of the Sikhs.

The real hero, among the characters of Michael Ondaatje's  small novel
The English Patient, is a Sikh with the British  during the Liberation of Italy; in yet another forum a few months ago, probably Fiction, a conversation started about whether the movie stinks or is great--that was made from the book that some people think is the greatest but I personally don't. Except for the ending, in which Ondaatje makes clear what the Sikh thinks of all this  after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Many people do not like some of the outstanding sites visited on location for this film. I do, so I dug out the explorations and posted them as inclusion supposing you might find them very interesting.  The English Patient may not have been the Nazi sympathizer that Sol Zentz typified in the production of this movie in 1996.  But one of the problems of course is relocating that section since we really don't have a cross-reference set up at Elba forums. If I'm lucky, it may show itself, or I may have filed a copy.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on May 29, 2008, 11:11:45 PM
Ps.   Clean-shaveness is much preferable in the Indian climate, in regard to facial hair.   There are non-Muslim Indians who also allow their hair to grow non-stop and tie it in a top-knot while the rest of them is quite naked except for perhaps a shoulder cloth, as they make their pilgrimage up and down the Ganges to where the rivers join at the Jumna and Sarasvatu. They are Shivaite. 

Differences continually erupt, at Varanasi for instance where the chanting white clad head shaven Shivaites sit at the burning ghats of Benares, Muslim bombings occurred in about 2005-2006 at Hanuman temple where  Alpert of MIT/Ram Das often stayed, along with Allen Ginsberg who was eventually turned away,this was where my friend also wanted to go, and go she did but often traveling back and forth to MIT or to my house. 

Hanuman is one of the oldest ashrams where pilgrims
stop to rest on their endless walking circuit of routes with ashrams every 20 miles founded by the Emperor Asoka. Since there would always be mothers with children staying at the "monkey" temple, it was a dastardly deed but, who knows, it may have been done in awareness that Americans were known to gather there?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 01, 2008, 10:24:15 AM
I think it might be wise to start the discussion of the bin Ladens with a little background on Saudi history. I say this because it ois important to understand we are dealing with a people whose country is named after a man and whose belief is that they hold the two holiest sites of a major religion in "trust" for its believers. It is as much a religious state as anything else. It is a religious state with political boundaries governed by one family--anybody outside of the family is considered just that an "outsider."  Coll makes it clear in his book that in spite of all their power, the bin Ladens are considered outsiders and know it and act accordingly. They are not of the family.

At the turn of the twentieth century Arabia was a delosate entity  and the major geographical section was known as the Nejd.  The Nejd was ruled by Wahabbi's, a very radical and militant sect of Islam.The Wahabbis were expelled from what is now Riyadh by  the Rashids and fled to Kuwait. They, the exiles, were led by the Saudi family. In 1901, the son of the exiled leader, Abdul Aziz ibn Saud, reconquered the Nejd and later also conquered  El-Hasa--in the eastern section of Arabia. After WWI the Western section of the counry , the Hejazi, was ruled by King Hussein, a Hashemite, but Abdul Aziz invaded the section and Hussein abdicated. Saud now had what we know as Saudi Arabia. There were in all of  Saudi Arabia 12 automobiles and no oil wells.(There are, of course, many more details and events, but these are some highlights).

The founder's name was Abdul Aziz ibn Abdur-Rahman al Faisal Al Sa'ud. He was born in 1876 (or 1880 depending on one's source) He lived until 1953. All Saudi kings, including the current King, were sons of Abdul Aziz. That's extraordinary when you think of it---A man born in 1880 sired every ruler of his country. The Saudi's direct family have dominated the peninsula for 108 years so far and the son still rules the country. Abdul Aziz rode into Riyadh on a camel accompanied by a man in charge of his finances, who carried a box holding all of him money--that man, who Coll discusses somewhere in the book, was in effect Treasurer of the country for years.

Starting out as King of the Hejaz (1926), he renamed the country  The Saudi Arabian Kingdom in 1932.

Sources: THE MIDDLE EAST IN WORLD AFFAIRS by George Lenczowski, Fourth Edition, 1980   Chapter XIII

STATESMAN'S YEARBOOK  1985-1986 122nd Edition, page 1037

THE KINGDOM by Robert Lacey 1981, page 161.

I think THE KINGDOM  is the best book I ever read on Saudi Arabia--though it is dated by now, for the early history of the country it is excellent.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 01, 2008, 10:36:41 AM
After September 11, it became commonplace  to trace the sources of Osama's radicalism to the Islamic radicalism political revival that swept the Middle East after 1979, and also to his experiences as a juhad  fighter and organizer during the anti-Soviet Afghan war.

Coll then points out that this "risks by passing his relationship to his family and his country, the sources of attraction and repulsion these ties created in his life, and their influence on his character and ideas." Thus Coll put himself to the task of explaining the family, in vast detail, placing Osama in perspective in the process.

I think the primary moving force on Osama bin Laden were, and continues to be, Wahabbism. until people understand what it is and what it stands for, one cannot really understand the man and what he did and continues to do.

The bin Ladens and Saudis have at least one thing in common, they are Wahabbi

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/gulf/wahhabi.htm



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 01, 2008, 11:05:32 AM
By the way "bin" and "ibn" merely mean--"son of"

"Al" --- means family or tribe and is  pronounced "Aal"

"al" ---- "the" and is pronounced  'alley'

An Arab, according to Gamal Abdul Nasser, is anyone whose mother tongue is Arabic.

Names--According to Robert Lacy, as of 1981, there were40 Prince Faisals and 43 Prince Kahlids, 28 Prince Muhammeds and 27 Princess Nuras in the central line alone.

Sheik Ahmad Zaki Yamani was Oil Minister in the 1970's and once said: "If you want to understand the Kingdom you must understand that 1400 years ago God revealed the word to Prophet Muhammad in the Holy Cities of Mecca and Medina. They are on the the other side  of Arabia from the oil fields, but they are of the same country and in our eyes they matter more than anything else". At a separate time said: "...if I have to say one thing that this Kingdom stands for,above all other, it is not oil. It is Islam. One day we will run out of oil. But we will never run out of Mecca and Medina."  (Lacy,KINGDOM, page 9) Every sheet of official paper in the Kingdom  has, running at top of it, the phrase "In the Name of God."

Westerners forgot all of this and paid, and continue to pay, a heavy price as a result.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 01, 2008, 12:46:29 PM
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/islam-salafi.htm

Bob, I just had my whole posting go up in smoke with the exception of this further link.

This happens when I get overly verbose. It's my internal editor, I guess.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 01, 2008, 12:48:11 PM
I'm not saying that I'll try to reduplicate but perhaps I can recreate at least some of it sometime later within the day.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 01, 2008, 02:17:43 PM
There are different views as to whether Osama bin Laden is Wahhabi, but I continue to believe he is. 

 "Contemporary extremists like Osama bin Laden do not have their origins in Wahhabism."                 Wahhabi Islam, by Natana J DeLong-Bas

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Wahhabi-Islam/Natana-J-DeLong-Bas/e/9780195169911


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on June 01, 2008, 03:00:23 PM
Bob...Looking forward to reading the discussion here, even though I can't participate.  Looks to be quite interesting.


Madupont...your link is quite informative,  even without your comments.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 01, 2008, 06:25:33 PM
RW,

Thanx for those intro posts.

I'm up to p 299 and have found the book to be of slow reading but worthwhile.  One recurrent theme is the frivolity of certain people in the Bin Laden + Saud families. They are jokesters, practical jokers, enjoy music and dance, and have wholsesome fun as well as naughty fun.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on June 02, 2008, 12:58:08 AM
I'm having trouble ridding myself of the image of Salem at the not-top-drawer English public school, crouching on his haunches on the seat of the loo to the amusement of his classmates...


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on June 02, 2008, 09:33:30 AM
Great, nytemps - I missed that part and now I have a mental image...

Bob -

Outstanding overview of Saudi Arabia - interesting that some people do not believe Osama is Wahhabi.

You pointed out that the Bin Ladens were outsiders.  Just wanted to add to that statement that the Bin Laden family is orginally from Yemen, and they are not bedouin.  They are a completely different ethnic group from the Sauds and therefore were looked upon as being rather inferior because of that.  In spite of the prejudice, the family patriarch certainly knew how to insinuate himself with the Sauds.  As a poverty-stricken, homeless child, he managed to start his own businesss with his brother and eventually turned it into a multi-million dollar business empire.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 03, 2008, 12:36:20 AM
"The founder's name was Abdul Aziz ibn Abdur-Rahman al Faisal Al Sa'ud. ...All Saudi kings, including the current King, were sons of Abdul Aziz. That's extraordinary when you think of it---A man born in 1880 sired every ruler of his country. The Saudi's direct family have dominated the peninsula for 108 years ...

Abdul Aziz rode into Riyadh on a camel accompanied by a man in charge of his finances, who carried a box holding all of him money--that man, who Coll discusses somewhere in the book, was in effect Treasurer of the country for years."

This is the way stories are told in this culture and they are always somewhat magical stories because there is something magical about these people. "to cleanse the Arab bedouin from the influence of Sufism." ..."observation of the luxury in dress and habits, the superstitious pilgrimages to shrines, the use of omens and the worship given to Mahomet and Mahommedan saints rather than to God, he began a mission
...To understand the significance of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab's ideas, they must be considered in the context of Islamic practice. There was a difference between the established rituals clearly defined in religious texts that all Muslims perform and popular Islam. The latter refers to local practice that is not universal. The Shia practice of visiting shrines is an example of a popular practice. The Shia continued to revere the Imams even after their death and so visited their graves to ask favors of the Imams buried there. Over time, Shia scholars rationalized the practice and it became established. Some of the Arabian tribes came to attribute the same sort of power that the Shia recognized in the tomb of an Imam to natural objects such as trees and rocks."...

"Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab's emphasis on the oneness of God was asserted in contradistinction to shirk, or polytheism, defined as the act of associating any person or object with powers that should be attributed only to God. He condemned specific acts that he viewed as leading to shirk, such as votive offerings, praying at saints' tombs and at graves, and any prayer ritual in which the suppliant appeals to a third party for intercession with God....

...forbid grave markers or tombs in burial sites and the building of any shrines that could become a locus of shirk."

Now, that we've mentioned "graves" at least three times, that was the first thing upon which I chose to remark yesterday because of an incident that was included in a film shown widely on tv some years ago about the practices in Afghanistan following the war in which Osama led the mujahideen. It had become the custom of women, now confined to the blue burka, to pray  at "the Arab cemetery" in which fallen mujahideen were buried according to their custom.  It was a drab place of sandy soil to which the women came to seek remedy for the many ailments and severe wounds consequent to war.  If one took a pinch or more of soil from these graves and wrapped it in folded cloth put into a pouch on a cord worn around the neck underneath the burka, it was possible miracles might occur.

Coll who was "embedded" as a roving foreign correspondent in Afghanistan may have or may think to mention this at some point in this book; I would not be surprised.

Thus, the stringency of Saudi Arabia. or why the reference to the "Calvinism" of this nationalized family brand of Islam in Bob's world security link.

I must point out,however, I cannot forget the interview given by Prince Turki al Faisal, relative of Abdul Aziz ibn Abdur-Rahman al Faisal Al Sa'ud, at which he was asked about his religion. " I am Salafid", he calmly replied and said no more.

He has been ambassador here in the States, and did go to prep-school here when he was about thirteen, but I do not believe he is seen in Washington,D.C. these days nor for quite some time.

This reference in my post with the second world security link,"The Salafiyyah movement to return Islam to it's purest roots (like the Islamic Amish!) ", I found very amusing because  I have certainly had time to observe the latter and how that works out and the amusing or not so amusing incongruities of those who found they could not remain with the Old Order but had to invent something appropriate that would coincide with their more political allegiance, whereby they could raise money(as Arabs do "charity") to benefit those who should be in office.  Of course, they do exactly in their places of worship and their life style, the things that Salafiyyah call, "shirk".  I love the coincidence of that in two languages.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 04, 2008, 08:00:19 PM
Quote
This is the way stories are told in this culture and they are always somewhat magical stories because there is something magical about these people.

But in this case,  the stories aren't fanciful--rather they are all too true, which makes the early history of the Arabian peninsula all the more fascinating. The roots of the Sa'udi Family are stil very much much exposed, even as they modernize and become more observent of their own self interest interest. Just the other day the King of Saudi arabia told the President of the United States that if he wanted more oil he should produce it himself--that Saudi Arabia wasn't going to meet the needs of the United  States regardless of how good a customer it is. That's very astute. Some of the book we are reading is really about  how the Saudis and the bin Ladens grew over the decades  and how they came to the realize the need to assert themselves and assert their their power. After we and the British "used" them for decades and profitted by their ignorance, the Royal Family is now fairly well educated and "hip" to the goings on in the world--including our failure to build enough refineries to meet our needs and our utter disregard to take care to conserve a natural resource, wasting it on unecessary SUV's and Hummers and other gas guzzlers and they crying about high gas prices.

Enough!!! getting back to Wahhabi question: A Salifi is a follower of the Prophet Muhammad's immediate successors, the pius ancestors (al-salaf al salihin) The salafi movements seek to restore Isl;am on the basis of its seventh century teachings--that is, Islam as it was under Muhammed and his  immediate successors. Salafi's belong to one of several groups, most notably the Muslim Brotherhood and the WAHHABIS.  Therefore, when the Prince states he is Salafi, he is acknowledge his basic belief  system, much as a Catholic or a Presbyterian would acknowledge they are Christian, Wahhabi's identify themselves at times as Salafi's.

So what emerges is Islam--->Sunni--->Salafi--->Wahhabi
much the same as Christianity--->Catholic--->Roman---> Tridentine

There's a really good  and very readable book on Wahhabis:HATRED'S KINGDOM by Dore Gold.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 04, 2008, 08:04:32 PM
By the way, I read a little on Yemen and Yemini history. What a confusion. Yemen has a quite complicated culture and history and I rather gave up on trying to understand the various changes in governance over the last century. Yemen is essential run by 17 tribes or families as opposed to Arabia, which essentially had two or three families in control.

State Department site on Yemen:

http://history1900s.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.state.gov/www/background%5Fnotes/yemen%5F1096%5Fbgn.html


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on June 04, 2008, 09:02:16 PM
Last night's news showed a car of the near futures that runs on a combination of gasoline and electricity getting 300 miles to the gallon. It is said to be able to come on the market in 4-5 years at $27-30,000. Unfortunately, it only seats two - barely, and no room to carry home the groceries.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on June 04, 2008, 10:42:25 PM
Quote
Great, nytemps - I missed that part and now I have a mental image...

Sorry, desdemona...is the image of Salem amusing his roomies in London by displaying "Lucky" any better?

Quote
Therefore, when the Prince states he is Salafi,
"

Thanks also from me for all the background info, bob.  Who's the prince you refer to here?  And what do you mean by the >>>> arrows... and what's "Tridentine" --this long-lapsed Baptist enquiring mind wants to know.

I used to joke with friends that the US should try to co-opt the middle easterners by shipping over massive numbers of America's signature product, the automobile--with easy access to all that oil and with all those wide open spaces, it should be easy to convert all those young men from strapping on explosives to strapping themselves into race cars, dune buggies, etc., etc....Whaddya think?

Most recent reference to Yemen I heard was on NPR earlier this week in connection with drastic food shortages there.  Before that, my last connection was in a case of a young Yemeni in Oakland who robbed the convenience store owned and operated by 2 other Yemenis (brothers)...what was that about "entrepreneurial spirit?"       

I'm not as far along in the book as others...please, somebody, tell me the fact that Osama's father died in the crash of a plane piloted by an American isn't going to be a major factor in Osama's anti-Americanism, Shakespearean as that might be... 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 05, 2008, 03:49:25 AM
nytempsperdu,

The "Prince" is Turki al Faisal who is very seriously "religious" in outlook.  It is interesting to see how that relates to other developments in his career, as he was sent to the West as a teenager to go to school at Lawrenceville Prep which was a "feeder" school to Princeton.  Before he became ambassador to the US for the King( and I have already forgotten whether it was the previous to current king but that sounds about right since the ambassador has not been here for awhile)he served as the kingdom's "chief of police" who modernized ways of dealing. Just as we read a bit, in the beginning of  The Bin Ladens, about how important the telephone began to be for communication, likewise CP Turki al Faisal put the nix on pursuing criminals in the desert by camel. The only way to deal with the desert in resolving criminal activity was to train his police force in the use of the airplane.

Oddly enough, they were sent over here  and a girlfriend of mine gave me a blow by blow account of how the young Arab policemen in their characteristic garb were perceived in a small Wisconsin country town when they were not on a US Navy airfield. I can not imagine anybody else having arranged this matter than George H.W. Bush, who was a Navy Man in his youth and was in a position during the 1970s to arrange such matters  but, what is striking about it is that in retrospect,less than three decades later we are given this image in the news media of some very odd Muslims signing up for flying lessons in some cases merely hours away from what was originally a jet test-run field that annoyed dairy farmers to pieces.

Suddenly Massoui, who was however Moroccan, wants to learn how to go up but not how to land, the FBI woman who reported this strangeness was of course pooh-poohed, preferably to be ignored but was not as malleable as former ambassador April Glasbie who worked for George H.W.Bush.   I can not recall the name of the attorney(also female) who represented this grounded flyer who wanted to go to flying school  in Minneapolis/St.Paul

This is of course the kind of thing that Prince Turki bin Faisal bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud would look into because of his position as former Director General of Saudi Arabia's Al Mukhabarat Al A'amah. They refer to this as their directof of "external intelligence".

He is a very wise man and he does not believe that there is anyway we will be able to give up using oil as soon as we seem to think. He also compared our  post-colonial war in Iraq as no different than  that of former colonial powers. Technically perhaps, from our point of view; but not in intent.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 05, 2008, 04:17:50 AM
Quote
Prince Turki bin Faisal bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud

That's a good example to show how to read Arab names: Turki is the son of (King) Faisal who was the son of Abdul Aziz of the House of Saud. tHgus, he is the nephew of the present King.

The arrows are merely a device for you to follow the sequence of things going from the general to the specific--narrowing the categories as they go along.

Tridentine refers to the Council of Trent, during which the Council approved what is now know as the Latin Mass and Latin Rituals. These held for over 500 years until the Vatican II Council. At Vatican II a new Mass and set of Rituals were approved allowing for Mass to be said in the language of the people and for the priest to face the congregation while saying Mass. This upset any number of Catholics (including me) and these people (with the permission of the Pope) are allowed to continue to hear the Latin Mass a have the priest not face the people. The Tridentines were and continue to be a very, very, small minority within the Church and I think  think the believers will continue to deline and eventually disappear within the next 40 or so years. (Benedict has evidenced signs that he's a sort of hidden Tridentine in that he can't stand modern music during a Mass, prefering to hear the old Gregorian Chant or something more traditional, he recently issued an Exhortation on the subject suggesting a return to the more traditional....after all, he's 80 and like me was brought up under the old traditions).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569975/Pope-to-purge-the-Vatican-of-modern-music.htm

http://catholic-mass-holy-days.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_return_of_the_tridentine_mass


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on June 05, 2008, 10:03:02 AM
Bob -

I'm afraid I'm going to have to start kow-towing to you, O Great One.  Your understanding of Arabian terminology and history is just downright awesome.

nytemps -

The mental image is even worse now... :-\

Regarding your question about Osama's father dying in the plane crash - there's another link to planes that is very significant in the family, but I don't want to spoil the surprise.  However, Osama's religious fanaticism has little to do with plane crashes, and one thing I learned from the book is the fact that it is part of the fundamentalist Muslim belief system that the Infidel will completely corrupt Islam.  When the US talked the Sauds into allowing US military establishments in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, Osama's fury was limitless.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 06, 2008, 12:06:07 AM
Bob,re:#684

The Tridentines have arrived in Lancaster. I'm sure you should be hearing from some soon in a locale near you.  Benedict has a point; I loathed discovering that I was to focus my mind on higher things while something akin to the Smothers Brothers were performing.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 06, 2008, 12:44:59 AM
Des,re:#685

"When the US talked the Sauds into allowing US military establishments in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War..."

It happened rather earlier than that, sometime in the 1960s that "Jobs"
began to be advertised, in this holiday atmosphere, an exotic culture in which to spend your free time, working for  "who knows?", some gov't project or business interest in  the Saudi Arabian peninsula; but you  had to be really gutsy to go. 

I vaguely remember Coll pointing out, in his "Young Osama" article at The New Yorker although it was pointedly about his "education" in more ways than one, that  his family, the bin Ladens probably had something to do with  building for the coming American entrepreneurial  arrival. When you think of the amounts of stuff that we've had to read up on in the last nearly seven years, it is a little difficult to remember all your possible sources. And everybody had their favorites.

There is a thoroughly up to date television series running in half-hour episodes on Sundance Channel about Four Arabs who come to experience America for themselves(they won a trip), and they are really quite young and have learned a lot about our culture from, well, "our culture" which is music and videos, and they are into all the latest gadgets, so they socialize really well here. They are all better than average, the guy who is a real go getter for the answers, a media person; then there's a girl, a really married girl but she calls her mother a lot and cries when asking her, "How things are there?" and answering what it is like here, described as very  "European", then when she follows the news, which is filtered and does not show up on CNN or in The New York Times, you see why she cries.

Each of the four is from another country in what is called
"the Arab sphere" or the Arab World.   There is the gentle boy who lacks discipline and likes to party when everybody else does but can't get up in the morning so the series producer, who is female, reads the riot act at all of them.

I have not yet zeroed in on the fourth. Before I knew it, the episode was over; I did not expect that. But, while they interact with their own generation group of whichever race they meet that day for their US experience, they also encounter our prejudices -- I was going to say,"writ large",when actually it is outspoken by the rampant media that has come to exist in our culture. 

And being the age that they are, they stand up to it; but it must be very wearing, enervating.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 06, 2008, 01:02:21 AM
nytempsperdu,re: #682

"I used to joke with friends that the US should try to co-opt the middle easterners by shipping over massive numbers of America's signature product, the automobile--with easy access to all that oil and with all those wide open spaces, it should be easy to convert all those young men from strapping on explosives to strapping themselves into race cars, dune buggies, etc., etc....Whaddya think?"

Yikes, if anybody knows when the automobile first arrived in Saudi Arabia, do tell? They've had absolutely no problem  doing the personal or chauffeur-driven car thing (though, it seems to me that they still prefer camel-races to track racing of customized sport cars).

I'd imagine that somebody British arrived early on.  The Osama generation have seen The European car at its best, a photo was included wither in Coll's coverage for The New Yorker or in The New York Review of Books which was an astonishingly beautiful family  group of the bin Laden youngsters in and around a long car, and I've quite forgotten the make, whether American or European,on a street in Switzerland where they vacationed.  When I first saw the photo, it was obvious which was Osama. Now, however as the picture surfaces again because of this current book, there is a retraction or perhaps I should say -- a denial, that Osama is anywhere in this picture(????)

I find that hard to accept.  But, I can also understand if the family decided that, as far as they recall, he simply wasn't there, with them on that vacation trip.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 06, 2008, 01:06:05 AM
My gosh, I just found out what jbottle means about thos emoticons showing up! One just did and I didn't touch it!  I placed a question mark; not even with parenthesis!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 07, 2008, 01:44:17 AM
Quote
  The Tridentines have arrived in Lancaster. I'm sure you should be hearing from some soon in a locale near you 

I'm one of them---I atttend the Latin Mass weekly.

Quote
if anybody knows when the automobile first arrived in Saudi Arabia, do tell? They've had absolutely no problem  doing the personal or chauffeur-driven car thing (though, it seems to me that they still prefer camel-races to track racing of customized sport cars). 

The time period is somewhere in the book, and its within the range of reasonability historically. Anyway, the humorous part is that though they had automobiles, they really had no roads to run them on and didn't build them for quite a while.

Another thing to ort of keep in mind is that the leadership chose to remain very insular in nature, very isolated from the outside world, for decades and only seemed to go outward in , maybe the late 50's and early 60's, and that's when they started to attend higher education over here and in Europe. 


Quote
When you think of the amounts of stuff that we've had to read up on in the last nearly seven years, it is a little difficult to remember all your possible sources. And everybody had their favorites.

Speaking of which, I remember a very telling statement Sheik Yamani made during the first Oil crisis in the early 70's (1973?)...when asked by a reporter why the OPEC was raising oil prices, the learned sheik  saidsomething like this: 'I'm only doing what you people taught me to do, I'm a Harvard graduate'  WOW!!! I never forgot that. It was only in 1973 that the OPEC cartel seized the moment  and took control of pricing a barrel of oil instead of "negotiating" the price with the western powers. It's fascinating that the rise in prices in 1973 was $2 a barrel. The price went from $2 a barrel to $5 a barrel  and the west went bananas. They held their conference in the plush Sheraton Hotel in Kuwait. They were learning fast then.

Oil closed today at $139 a barrel and the American people have yet to learn the lessons from the 1970's. America is a land of SUV's and Hummers--we brought this on in part by our own excesses and by our refusal to expand refining facilities, but choose to blame the rest of the world for our plight. We also chose to ignore, for the most part, the rise of Fundamentalism at the end of the 70's (Remember the Hostage Crisis?). To a fundamentalist  like Osama bin Laden, the stationing of American troops on the soil of the Prophet  was a horrible, horrible act by an infidel. Of course, having stationed troop somewhere, we have the distinct habit of almost never removing them. Perhaps if we moved out of the area after a resonable time period, Osama's rage might have been diverted to other things.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 07, 2008, 05:26:20 PM
Perhaps if we moved out of the area after a resonable time period, Osama's rage might have been diverted to other things.




The better move would have been to obey Washington's instructions to refrain from foreign entanglements.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on June 07, 2008, 05:27:50 PM
Than,

You are certainly right with the Washington quote. But, I guess our current leader never read that much history.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 07, 2008, 10:03:06 PM
Dunno about anyone else, but I am having a difficult time trying to come up with an issue or with issues to discuss about Coll.

Perhaps education may be one such subject:  while most Arabic youths were restricted to Koranic instruction, a few Bin Laden family members did manage to get western educations. In fact, a couple of sisters did so as well and this was highly unusual for Arabic families. King Faisal has something to do with this as he established western type schools in Saudi Arabia. One such institution was Al-Thaghr. {p 143} 

While this school taught western subjects, it was run by strict Islamic rules.  OBL attended this school and it was here that he came under the influence of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood. This organization opposed Nasser's secularism in Egypt and advocated religiously inspired political activism. OBL was far from his childhood home and this isolation undoubtedly made him more amenable to its teachings.

pp 143-152


Title: Re: World History
Post by: harrie on June 08, 2008, 09:19:53 AM
Quote
Perhaps education may be one such subject:  while most Arabic youths were restricted to Koranic instruction, a few Bin Laden family members did manage to get western educations. In fact, a couple of sisters did so as well and this was highly unusual for Arabic families.


Yes, my thoughts exactly when reading about Salem's favored niece, Randa.  Although I must admit to alternating between harrumphing "Well, not all Muslims are so devout are they?" -- which Salem clearly was not, and that's fine -- and being grateful that at least a handful of women weren't completely oppressed in the name of religion.

It's interesting to me that Salem, when living in/visiting the Western countries, adapted to their ways but snapped relatively into line when in Muslim countries. However, it's not suprising to me because his chameleon-like tendencies were responsible for his successes. Had he segregated and not educated his female relatives, kept them in traditional garb, etc. I think some Americans might have hesitated to do business with him. Since he assimilated, he was easier to relate to, and succeeded accordingly.  It might be tempting to call him a hypocrite, but you can't (at least I can't) deny he was savvy.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 08, 2008, 01:23:06 PM
Harrie, "some...might have hesitated to do business with him. Since he assimilated, he was easier to relate to, and succeeded accordingly."

Same could be said for Salem's nephew, the son of Osama bin Laden; but,you'll see what I mean at the end of the following to thanatopsy.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 08, 2008, 01:52:10 PM
thanatopsy,re:#693

I had read this section originally in The New Yorker when told about it by an East German in the nytimes.com Western European forum. At that time those members of the forum who actually lived in Europe often had problems with family members being accosted by Muslims(from former colonies) and fears exacerbated because of shocking crimes that occurred in their countries and were notorious throughout the world).

However, the version that you pointed out in Text varies in one significance from Coll's original article on the education of ObL and I looked for it expectently because it made a strong impression on me at the time. I gather that Coll edited this episode from the  al Thaghr material and possibly may have included it somewhere else in the story of the family activities.

I shall include this page, here, for what it is worth.(Coll incidentally did years of articles for The New Yorker, after leaving The Washington Post; and this area of the world is his particular delight. It was in a small way for me as well until the Bush agenda radically destroyed the culture of the Tigris-Euphrates known as Mesopatamia and relabeled it " the War in Iraq". Consequently, for reasons unknown,many artifacts are no longer being kept in Chicago's Field Museum).

[next}


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 08, 2008, 01:54:21 PM
LETTER FROM JEDDA

Young Osama
by Steve Coll
(page 5)

Khaled Batarfi offered a new account of bin Laden’s travels during the nineteen-sixties and seventies. He said that, as far as he knew, bin Laden had ventured outside the Middle East as a young man only three times. The first time, when he was about ten, he went to London with his mother to receive medical treatment for an eye condition. Bin Laden stayed in England for at least a month and did some sightseeing, according to Batarfi. On a second trip, as a teen-ager, bin Laden joined some friends and relatives on a big-game safari in East Africa. And, finally, according to Batarfi, Osama bin Laden made one trip to the United States, in about 1978.

According to Batarfi, the trip to America came about because bin Laden’s first child, a son named Abdullah, who was born in about 1976, had a medical problem—apparently cosmetic. Bin Laden, his wife, and his toddler son travelled together to the United States for treatment, Batarfi said, although he is not certain where the procedure took place. By his account, only one aspect of the journey made a particularly strong impression on bin Laden: On the way home, Osama and his wife were sitting in an airport lounge, waiting for their connecting flight. In keeping with their strict religious observance, his wife was dressed in a black abaya, a draping gown, as well as the full head covering often referred to as hijab. Other passengers in the airport “were staring at them,” Batarfi said, “and taking pictures.” When bin Laden returned to Jedda, he told people that the experience was like “being in a show.” By Batarfi’s account, bin Laden was not particularly bitter about all the stares and the photographs; rather, “he was joking about it.”

If Batarfi is correct, bin Laden’s American visit took place before he travelled to Afghanistan to participate in violent jihad, and about ten years before he founded Al Qaeda; it might never have surfaced in intelligence and law-enforcement investigations of bin Laden, which began in the midnineteen-nineties. Spokesmen at several government agencies, including the C.I.A. and the F.B.I., said that their Al Qaeda specialists had no information about a visit by bin Laden to the United States. A State Department spokesman said that its consular section had no record of ever having issued a visa to bin Laden, but that the department no longer has complete records of visas that were issued that long ago.

Abdullah bin Laden, Osama’s son, today lives in Jedda and enjoys good health, according to several people who know him. (He did not respond to requests for an interview.) In a story published in a London-based Saudi-owned newspaper in 2001, Abdullah said that he left his father’s household in the mid-nineties, when Osama was preparing to leave Sudan, where he had been living in exile, for a new and uncertain exile in Afghanistan. Not wishing to endure such hardship any longer, Abdullah sought and received his father’s permission to return to Saudi Arabia, where he has since taken up a career in advertising and public relations.


Abdullah runs his own firm, called Fame Advertising, which has offices near a Starbucks in a two-story strip mall on Palestine Street, one of Jedda’s busiest commercial thoroughfares. “Fame . . . Is Your Fame” is the company’s slogan, according to its marketing brochures. Among the firm’s advertised specialties is “event management,” which refers to the staging of attention-grabbing corporate galas and launch parties for new products or stores. The firm makes this promise: “Fame Advertising events are novel, planned meticulously, and executed with efficiency.” On the back of this brochure is printed a single word: “Different.”

Many Saudis follow the search for Abdullah’s father with fascination, and this is particularly true of alumni of the Al Thagher Model School. Some of Osama’s former classmates are now doctors or lawyers; others have followed their fathers into business. They use the Internet to stay in touch. On January 31, 2001, Al Thagher’s Class of 1976 started a message group on Yahoo, where they exchange news about old friends and occasionally discuss questions about religion and politics, a participant told me. That Yahoo group requires a moderator’s permission to join, but a second Al Thagher group for all alumni has publicly posted messages that give the flavor of the group’s discussions, particularly in that autumn after the September 11th attacks. Posted message titles include “Taleban,” “Northern Alliance Atrocities,” “Salman Rushdie article,” and, suggestively, “9 Unpopular Ideas, important to read.”

Al Thagher’s Class of 1976 is approaching the thirtieth anniversary of its graduation; no reunion has been scheduled. The class held its most recent reunion at a beach resort on the Red Sea. The party took place on a wintry night; in all, about fifty Al Thagher alumni turned up to mingle and share a meal. There was no word from Osama. ?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 08, 2008, 06:53:43 PM
http://www.sundancechannel.com/films/500320087

This is the series that I mentioned. Now, I don't know whether I saw an introduction, or the actual 1st episode as described?  I think it may surprise you.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on June 10, 2008, 12:19:56 AM
Education is certainly one theme that could be traced, but to me it ties in with a larger one of globalization of that and other realms of enterprise/endeavor. The easy movement of the bin Laden family members between continents and societies reminds me how money indeed makes for "citizens of the world"--and also how very provincial Americans are, and feeling ashamed to acknowledge 'tis so. I feel this is even more the case since 9/11 and it makes me regret anew that the global goodwill after that event was so lightly regarded and so quickly thrown away. 

Education sidelights: I only recall having one student who had lived in that part of the world, in Riyadh where his dad had worked on some project or for some global corp.  He did a presentation for my World Geography class in which he emphasized the very minimal fear of/precautions against crime, impressed that one could go off and leave one's belongings just about anywhere in full confidence they would be there upon return. Of course, he also described with great relish and lurid detail the punishments for crimes.  Another visitor to that class was an exchange student from Israel, who was adamant that all countries surrounding it were in a state of war with his country.  (He also made much of a bulletin board display in a hapless teacher's classroom he visited; there were pix from WWII and, yes, there was a swastika in one. Though no one in their right mnd could think that teacher was even mildly anti-semitic, quite a flap ensued.  Sorta reminds me of the "spooks" flap in The Human Stain)

That ought to be enough digression to bring on a NYTemps beatdown.  Back to the book...           


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 10, 2008, 01:17:25 PM
Education in Saudi Arabia has always been religiously oriented. The State is virtually a theocracy. So Osama bin Laden would have gone to the equivalent of an American parochial school. He would have been given a Wahhabi view of the world. Right now I'm in my local library and don't have the book with me, but I'll post later on in the day after I re-read a section of the text having to do with their educational system. As I recall it vaguely, they used to send a lot of their best and brightest to foreign schools, but over the years the numbers have diminished--but I'll go into it later.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 10, 2008, 08:57:50 PM
In 1975 the minister of Education was  was a direct descendant of Muhammad ibn Adbul Wahhab. Three of the six universities in Saudi Arabia were religious institutions or emphasized religious instructions. The influence of Wahhabi beliefs was pervasive.

In 1965 there were 3,625  university students in the Kingdom, by 1986 the number was 113,529. Saudis going abroad for education in the mid 1980's  numbered 12,500--but by 1990 it had fallen to 3,554. 30% of Saudi students in Saudi universities majored in Islamic studies, while the other 70% devoted an average of a third of their coursework to religious studies.

By 1992 it was estimated by one Saudi educator that 65% of Saudi's wanted the country run along more traditional Islamic lines.

(HATRED'S KINGDOM pages 78-79)

The Wahhabi influence dominated while Osama bin Laden grew up. Is it any wonder he has the belief system he has? One wonders what the average Saudi really believes about Americans andWesterners in general...


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on June 10, 2008, 09:48:43 PM
Thanks for that re the educ. system, Bob.  The school Osama went to, the Al-Thaghr Model School (hee, I first read that as Modeling School and had quite an entertaning mental image involving robes and headdresses) is described by Coll as "a private enclave for the sons of businessmen and the royal family" and was "a showcase for Faisal's modernization drive, and particularly for his interest in science and Western methods of education."  However, Osama was influenced by the leader of an after school study goup, a Syrian PE teacher, one of the Syrian and Egyptian teachers often found in Saudi high schools who were or had been involved in political dissidence in their home countries, some were members of the political dissident group Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist organization founded in Egypt, opposed to British colonial rule and later vs. Nasser. (see p. 144)  So Osama's first influence doesn't seem to be Wahhabist per se--that must be yet to come in my reading.  (Am still soujourning in Texas & Gulf Coast with Salem & crowd.)

What fascinates me is the interplay of political and religious dissidence.  I recall being struck when reading the book on Gertrude Bell at the loyalty to family and to religion of a people not far removed from nomadic life, with loyalty to a political entity/state being something of a foreign concept--recall the difficulties of forging Arab nationalism among the Bedouin and how easily it broke down.  Maybe where there is a governing royal family, loyalty to state can merge into it; where there is a governing theocracy, loyalty to state can merge into that.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 10, 2008, 10:09:30 PM
That so closely resembles what we have  hopefully just escaped. Can't imagine where the Bush family stumbled upon that concept?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on June 11, 2008, 10:15:38 AM
Quote
One wonders what the average Saudi really believes about Americans andWesterners in general...

I believe they consider us Infidels who should be destroyed.  The Palestinian issue and America's support for Israel is a huge issue for them.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 11, 2008, 02:32:30 PM
I'd say that given they are a lot nearer except for a huge desert, our support(with their oil) interests them more than it does the Egyptians; but, I would recommend this op-ed today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/opinion/11friedman.html

Obama on the Nile


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 11, 2008, 03:50:52 PM
Quote
...

I believe they consider us Infidels who should be destroyed.  The Palestinian issue and America's support for Israel is a huge issue for them.


Not entirely.

The Koran identifies Christians and Jews as ''people of the Book" (that is, the Bible) who are deserving of respect as every Muslim.  True, they have great disdain for Zionism and those who support it.  But the term 'infidel' is generally reserved for those who knowingly profane the Koran rather than for non-Muslims.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Lhoffman on June 11, 2008, 03:59:30 PM
Thanatopsy...Yes.  Muslims do consider Christians and Jews to be "People of the Book."  I suspect that Desdemona was saying they consider Americans to be infidels.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 11, 2008, 04:05:40 PM
I understand.

Unfortunately, since the  controlled news media are owned by those highly sympathetic to Zionism, it has spared no effort to mischaracterize people of the Middle East and Central Asia. This is what has given so many in the West the mistaken notion that Saudis and others regard all of us as 'infidels' when there simply is no basis for that myth.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 11, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
The Arab oil embargo of 1973 "did more to tranform the {Saudi} Kingdom than any other event since the discovery of oil itself." {p 157}


This has probably been overlooked by many. And while Faisal profited from this, it ultimately led to his assassination as was discussed earlier. This led to Fahd's ascension which worked out quite well for the Bin Laden's interests as he increased the  patronage given to that family. They became much wealthier as they worked on infrastrucutural projects.

When OBL experienced his epiphany into the Muslim Brotherhood, his portion of that wealth was used by him to promote their radicalized theocratic goals.


pp 152-212



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 11, 2008, 06:18:33 PM
Quote
So Osama's first influence doesn't seem to be Wahhabist per se--that must be yet to come in my reading.

"The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hasan al-Banna, a 22-year-old elementary school teacher, as an Islamic revivalist movement following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the subsequent ban of the caliphate system of government that had united the Muslims for hundreds of years. Al-Banna based his ideas that Islam was not only a religious observance, but a comprehensive way of life, on the tenets of Wahhabism, better known today as "Islamism", and he supplemented the traditional Islamic education for the Society's male students with jihadia training."

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/mb.htm

Sort of the same thing---Wahhabism-----> The Muslim Brotherhood

It's like Christianity contains within it Catholicism and Methodism and Presbyterianism, etc--they may differ in things, but they are all Christian. They all have the same basic belief in Christ.... In the Moslem world Wahhabism is manifested through the Moslem Brotherhood --- so don't look for a direct reference.  Coll is being very specific as to from whence the Wahhabic influence came.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 11, 2008, 07:13:43 PM
Quote
...

I believe they consider us Infidels who should be destroyed.  The Palestinian issue and America's support for Israel is a huge issue for them.


Not entirely.

The Koran identifies Christians and Jews as ''people of the Book" (that is, the Bible) who are deserving of respect as every Muslim.  True, they have great disdain for Zionism and those who support it.  But the term 'infidel' is generally reserved for those who knowingly profane the Koran rather than for non-Muslims.


"respect" is quite different, based on common origins but not practice. In fact, I seriously doubt this refers to the same "book". It is in the very nature of Christian practices for instance to profane the Koran' authority. We do things they have continually  been educated to consider wrong. Likewise with Judaism but I am not going to make an example of that at the moment. Consider instead how Christians have not been in agreement about the books that make up a proper Bible?

None of that validates the emphasis of Judaism upon what Christians refer to as Old Testament, until you get to the very recent formation of groups in the Delaware valley who are known as Jews for Jesus who will have become more familiar with what we call New Testament Christianity than other Jews previously cared.

This was brought home to me last night that, when facing conditions of extermination, adaptations evolve quickly. Europe produced many Jewish Christians, as well as Jewish Agnostics; neither of which matter to the exterminator of the 20th.century.  I had just seen a film about a man who survived that period by being able to pass as a Christian.  It was a priest who doubted that he had ever been baptized, given the highly organized structure of the Roman Catholic church; although the passing Christian had a Russian Catholic mother who died at Auschwitz because she had been married to a Polish Jew who was an agnostic.

This all sounded a lot more than vaguely familiar to me, because  of how subtly this happens between my generation and the next, I have acquired a whole new set of relatives some of whom were raised in both traditions and were free to choose to marry within the religion of just one of their parents; and, the latest generation, by synchronicity with the immediate era of current events, thoroughly disagree with the government in Israel although they are Americans and who have relationships to the generation that had to take refuge in Israel because of the Revolution in Iran.  They then got out of Israel as quickly as possible because it too is a target (ironically, at the same time that Iran is from our present government).

The Saudi-Arabians have the luxury of a family and government that accepts a theocracy as a given. So it seems to us very integral but not fond of the Shiites which our valiant leader ingeniously empowered and now is frantically trying to get rid of just as desperate as he wanted to get into Iraq,because? --it offends the Oil Arabs. They know he is quite dumb and is making a mess of things on our continent as well.

Which is possibly why I am more fascinated by the aspects( in this book of bin Ladens ) which nytempsperdu referred to as somewhat the "Gertrude Bell" view of the nomadic. We get this in the early pages of Coll's tome, the unfolding story of the early members of the family. This is familiar to me, how those who live a tribal existence in depleted resources emigrate. One becomes an agnostic at the same time, for fear of being of the wrong religion in a new environment. Or, as in the case of Osama, just the opposite, if not just the pretension to give the appearance of being a Believer and a very strict  one. This was in a footnote, recalling an incident that I remembered as shocking,you will find marked with an asterisk at the bottom of pg.23:"Decades later, Osama bin Laden recruited Khalid Al-Mihdhar, a member of this well-known Wadi Doan family of sayyids, or descendents of the Prophet Mohamed, as a highjacker in the September 11 plot; Al-Mihdhar piloted the plane that crashed into the Pentagon."

That is why certain traditional laws, as I remarked about 14 months ago, serve as conduits for understanding between the extremes of custom, the antipodes of practice, which Bedouin nomads call "ada" or Adat, when a judge has to decide rights or wrongs. I thought perhaps our intelligence was making it up in translation of Al Jazeera when they showed us "recently surfaced video tapes taken at a wedding" where we hear Osama conversing glibly in the mens' tent and having a tendency to display sardonic humor when admitting that some of the perpetrators were recruits less educated than we in the US were led to believe. As, he said, they had no idea they would not survive the crash.

Thus, the asterisk marked footnote on pg.23, may or may not refer to a family feud, or one upmanship in a more sophisticated era marked by a worldly rise in family status; but I think it has more to do with his modus operandi than that his father's death in an aviation accident.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 11, 2008, 07:30:29 PM
Ps., in other words, he is not the "charismatic holy man" as many other Muslims both here and abroad, both women and men, have described him.

His righteousness about correcting wrongs does not extend  to loving his former neighbors in the family past.  Now, I could say that was just the way we differentiate between Christian doctrine and Arab custom in the harshness of desert life becoming a characteristic.  I don't know by observation  so far in my life.

Thus I often cringe when the anti-Muslim faction in any number of media blogs and forums accuse Democrats of describing presidential nominee Barack Obama in those same terms,"charismatic; holy, or a variation thereof".


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 11, 2008, 10:51:27 PM
All religons have factions and all religons have among them persons of radical beliefs and behaviors. Christianity in America suffers from the excesses of what used to be called the Radical Christian Right; Southern Baptists have some beliefs not generally followed by non-believers and we all know the controvery over Mormonism and its radical wing. Although none of the aforementioned advocates or calls for the death of non-adherants, they certainly condemn them to the depths of Hell. If we were to take the Bible literally, God would become a fire breathing harbinger of death, bringing retribution to those who won't believe in him, killing every man women and child at times and, with Job, killing his innocent sons and daughters to win a bet with The Satan. What I'm trying to point out is that Mohamedanism isn't the only religon which advocates or advocated death and destruction to infidels (non-believers)--just read a few books in the Old Testament. And to those who would object that we now rely on the New Testament, just remember the Crusades when they went to slay the infidels in the name of God--some of the bloodiest battles were fought there. Remember the Spanish Inquisition. Remember all the death and destruction in the English Reformation where thousands were killed because they were either Protestant or Catholic, depending on the Monarch involved. Historically Mohammed came 700 years after Christ. Historically its only hundreds of years since the Christians behaved the same way Moslem Radicals do today. Though Christians and Jews be people of the book, they're still infidels. Protestants and Catholics were people of the book and they killed each other in spite of it.

It is in the 1400's according to the Moslem calendar now. It was in the 1400's in the Christian Calendar (and well into the 1600's) when the factional fights occured in Christian Europe--its an interesting parallel.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 12, 2008, 08:31:12 AM
... and it is no secret that Hitler killed Jews in the name of Jesus Christ and of the Catholic church which stood by in near total silence as the atrocities took place.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on June 12, 2008, 10:38:38 AM
... and it is no secret that Hitler killed Jews in the name of Jesus Christ and of the Catholic church which stood by in near total silence as the atrocities took place.



Than, Hitler didn't exterminate the Jews in the name of Christ - he wasn't a Christian.  Most of the upper echelon Nazis were not - they were into bizarre Nordic cults and such.  Anti-semitism in Germany was deeply ingrained for several hundred years before Hitler came along - he bought into conspiracy theories about Jews and detested them as inferior beings.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on June 12, 2008, 10:42:13 AM
Bob -

Quote
Southern Baptists have some beliefs not generally followed by non-believers


All Christians have some beliefs not generally followed by non-believers.  Wondering why you're mentioning Southern Baptists in particular as an ex-Southern Baptist. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 12, 2008, 12:34:06 PM
I think we are floundering. My point basically: being called "People of the Book", does not make us immune from political confrontations with Muslims about whose oil goes where, nor differences of opinion with them about our aggressive involvements in neighboring oil-producing countries who have been members of the Oil Cartel with Saudi Arabia.

(But both thanatopsy and desdemona are correct  in so far that in our past we were not in an exceptional position when the Third Reich decided to include us in their plans.  It strikes some people as odd but by the time that war was concluded(WW2), it was discovered that just as the gau or districts in Germany were governed, they had mapped us in the US, just as they had with Europe before they set about conquering, designating which areas were under the authority of which officials.)

Perhaps we should just proceed with what things that we've read, in Coll's biography of a family, that particularly strike us about their relationship with the House of Saud ?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 12, 2008, 06:30:46 PM
Quote
Wondering why you're mentioning Southern Baptists in particular as an ex-Southern Baptist.

No particular reason except I wanted to use a rather large demonination and they popped into my mind. At a different time I probably would have used anopther demonination.....If I offended anyone with my choices, I apologize.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 12, 2008, 06:51:27 PM
Before we return to the book, I think it necessary to point out that Hitler was a Catholic

On March 23, 1933, Hitler addressed the Reichstag: "The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people." At one point he described his religious status: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."  (from article on Hitler's religon by Wikopedia, and citing John Tolad, a Hitler biographer as the source of the  quote "I am now as before a Catholic...")

He was a Catholic until the day he died. The Church took no steps to excommunicate him.

The SS wore belt buckles stating "God is with us." It was, in part, in the name of God regardless of their actual belief system--they proclaimed one of their justifications as lying  within their Christianity.  It was, after all, Christians who instituted and sustained anti-Semitism in Germany. Think also that one of the most power Popes in the 19th Century, Pius IX, was virulently and openly anti-Semitic. (And they now want to make him a Saint)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: bosox18d on June 13, 2008, 04:49:13 AM
Hitler was a Catholic in name only.That he and the church were in on killing Jews is nonsense and not backed up by Historical FACT.Some of the Nazi higher ups were indeed Catholic but as time went on Des is right that Nazi thought which was a neo pagan thing would have taken control.Catholics in large populations like Poland and other countries were indeed rounded up into concentration camps.Priests who did not follow party lines were eliminated or vanished.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 13, 2008, 05:27:11 AM
I'll buy that-that Hitler was Catholic in name only---except that I believe he was "in on it"--responsible and fully aware of what was going on it. The issue of the Church is, of course, a really controversial issue-maybe we should pick a book on it--pro or con- and discuss it.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on June 13, 2008, 09:03:09 AM
Quote
Wondering why you're mentioning Southern Baptists in particular as an ex-Southern Baptist.

No particular reason except I wanted to use a rather large demonination and they popped into my mind. At a different time I probably would have used anopther demonination.....If I offended anyone with my choices, I apologize.

Oh, no, Bob, no offense taken.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on June 13, 2008, 09:08:09 AM
Quote
I'll buy that-that Hitler was Catholic in name only---except that I believe he was "in on it"--responsible and fully aware of what was going on it.


Oh, there's no question that the extermination of the Jews was ordered by Hitler at the Wannsee Conference.  Many years before that took place, he made his feelings about Jews perfectly clear in Mein Kampf.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on June 13, 2008, 09:11:24 AM
Anyway, back to the Bin Ladens.

As I read the book, I had to really exercise my imagination and still couldn't quite grasp what it must be like to have 70 some-odd half-brothers and sisters and to live in a culture like the one in Saudi Arabia.    Also thought Salem Bin Laden was a very interesting character, along with the fact that the Bin Laden brothers were so wealthy that they invested in businesses and then just forgot about them. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 13, 2008, 04:50:49 PM
Quote
the Bin Laden brothers were so wealthy that they invested in businesses and then just forgot about them.

If I remember the book correctly, somewhere its mentioned that hthe half brothers sometimes didn't know each other or met so infrequently they had difficulty remembering one another.

The only society I can compare them to is the Italian community in the city where I grew up. They generally bought three story houses (the houses were built in the early part of century) and housed three generations in the same house and as they family expanded they bought houses or rented them within spitting distances. In addition you would also find a substansial number of cousins, nephews, neices, etc...I don't know that this still happens, but fifty years ago it was rather common. The first generation sometimes still spoke Italian, having come over sometime in the twenties or thirties, while the second generation spoke perfect English and the third generation were just sprouting and marrying. the extended families were sometimes huge.  Its not quite the same as having 70 sisters and brothers, but I sort have an idea of it. My sister married an Italian whose mother lived upstairs and whose granmother and grandfather  lived on the third floor. When they had children they moved next door. Now they live upstairs from their children, etc....and it goes on.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on June 13, 2008, 09:09:04 PM
That seems to compare if you think of generations of descendants actually descending ("down" as it were) from an original couple, but there is also the dimension of "across" (can you tell I love crosswords?)  due to the multiple marriages, so that one generation has 57 siblings.  Coll also seems fascinated with the dichotomy represented by Salem and Osama, yet even Salem observed religious customs when at home and acted as clan patriarch as much as international playboy/entrepreneur.  His shenanigans are sure more fun to read about than Osama's piety.  I love the wide gulf between Salem determining that telecommunications were the way of the future, and Osama's determination to avoid things not available to/in the time of the Prophet.

Sidenote: I dunno if Hitler was a believing Catholic or not but he/the Nazis sure enlisted followers using religious hatred of Jews (think of the odious epithet "Christkillers") and add to the mix hatred of Socialists of the Communist persuasion, many of whom were Jewish. Many of secular tendencies think another factor in the hatred of Christians for Jews harkened back to medieval times when Jews were allowed to lend money but such was forbidden to Christians as the sin of usury, with the resulting growth of wealthy Jewish banking families (and of a stereotype of Jews).   OK, end of digression...will get to Osama's brand of anti-semitism soon enough. 


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on June 13, 2008, 09:59:33 PM
NYTemps,

The brother Salem sounds interesting. Maybe I should have gotten and read the book.

As to the anti-semitism, I ran into a lot of it in the biography of Einstein. Einstein himself was not religious so he figured it really didn't matter, but barely got out of Germany in time. As I've been forcing myself through reading on the Holocaust to write a children's book, I am scandalized by the perception of so-called Christians towards their fellow-man. In one of the books I read, the Russian-German was sent from Russia because her family was German, and then not well accepted in Germany because she was from Russia. But the one that really hurt was when she said that the Catholic priests, whose monastery the refugees live in, would give out treats to the Catholic children - only, denying them to the Lutheran children. How cruel!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 14, 2008, 10:04:15 AM
weezo,

You might be interested in this inclusion for today's news on my carrier.

Religion Helps Americans Navigate Racial Landscape

http://www.blackvoices.com/newsarticle/_a/religion-and-racism-in-america/20080610144009990001?icid=200100174x1203839539x1200156596


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 15, 2008, 12:20:45 AM
Self-preservation motivated both families [Bin Ladens, Sauds] more than ideology.

The Sauds accomodated the USA and the mujahideen both to preserve themselves and in the interest of a nifty profit. They employed Pakistan's ISI to funnel $$$ and armaments to the latter group with OBL being the chief beneficiary of their largesse. The liberation struggle against Soviets became a cause celebre for  Muslim youths and many were recruited to fight the invaders. OBL profits while keeping a safe distance from the actual conflicts (much like Cheney!).

Meantime as Fahd profits, he pursues his love of luxury.

pp 213-263


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 16, 2008, 02:05:44 PM
Thanatopsy, pg.222

I take it back about the preference for camel-racing -- maybe I should admit that is a pastime of the elderly generation.

Coll mentions, "Even so, in the late 1970s, there was it seemed, an almost endless amount of money to go around. Yachts, private jets, palaces filled with new technology, garages stuffed with European race cars....

I suspected as much as that habit started earlier but I didn't want to be too outre  about this because Coll goes on to say in this chapter that a reform movement is already under way by the Brotherhood.

This stands to reason, as he dates it late 1970s, which was the last time we sat in long lines at the gas pumps waiting for our ration of gas for our gas guzzlers. When I went back to work in an "urban-suburban" (outskirts) hospital doing transcribing in the pathology laboratory, ordinarily a half-hour trip from where I was living on an old farm, the bus service had already been terminated.  So I began to experience the "opportunism" which I'd been studying as part of the change in PRC which had gone "Modern", businessmen wore "Suits", an expression that crept into our own language.  Americans, unfamiliar with how language works there, often mistakenly referred to the Westernisation of China which infuriated the Chinese because they had no intention of going "Western" and, in fact, in the historical sense saw nothing more important about Western Civilization than anything they hadn't already contributed on a par with ours. Just different not inferior, which the Vietnam war had convinced many right leaning Americans was a fact or the "Gook"ification of Asia compared to our advanced civilization. You have to denigrate the enemy to be superior to anybody.

Bush civilization with a small c got a bit carried away however because we were soon calling our former allies "Old", comparatively feeble or weak sister compared to New Allies who were sending "MEN" to the front in Iraq. Thus enraging our former diplomatic partners of the "Western world". (Of course, the Brits still came to our assistance because I think that I have to say this, they bequeathed to us their traditional Anglo-supremacist notions of colonial life east of Suez.)

However, back at the end of the Seventies, beginning of the Eighties, we had seen nothing as yet. Mainly because our government which told us the virtues of downsizing government, was actually lining individualist pockets while nobody was minding the store. Exactly what the Chinese had meant by "Opportunism" in the use of language they had adopted from the 19th.century of our old European allies whom we stiffed two decades earlier while reconstructing  infrastructure to reward Business acumen of  Western Europeans who were looking westward across the Atlantic.

This was when those Exotic creatures known as Saudis stood to make a fortune. They traveled in "Western Europe" and the US; where some alert business types, educated in the Protestant Ivy League to conform to WASP socializing were seeing potential in investment where we might want "office space" in the Middle East. 

That's how the European racing cars ended up in Saudi garages.

By now, my great aunt with her tiny Billie Burke voice and Dick Cavett sense of humour merely showed me the Edsel in her garage, and figured it was time for me to memorize just the oral history of her side of the family after what had been done with tape-recorders in Washington,D.C.

Before I go back to read further, how is Bob doing with hospitalization this week?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 16, 2008, 08:53:12 PM
preference for camel-racing ... is a pastime of the elderly generation.



The same can be said of Oriental or belly dancing which is today thought to be some form of evil by so many ultra orthodox Muslims. To me, that is a crime against humanity and a profanation against Divine Law.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 16, 2008, 09:09:49 PM
As financial globalization expanded, so did the capital accumulation of the BLs - but this also meant that certain family members grew distant from one another.  Bakr emerged as financial and engineering leader of the clan with Fahd continuing to play up to orthodoxy by expanding his massive spending in Medina. Osama saw this through this hypocrisy and it alienated him further from the clan. The Saudis finance OBL. Ultimately, so did Salem and other clan members.

Interestingly, OBL denied the USA gave him financial support despite evidence to the contrary. The CIA had interests in Western Pakistan as he did. The Saudi government increased its support of OBL.

It was now 1987 and the Mujahideen battles with the Soviets intensified. OBL uses his money to cultivate an image of himself as martyr and financier.

Salem continued his eccentric lifestyle and it ultimately led to his death by airplane accident.

OBL increased his recruiting of jihadists and insisted on diversified soldiers. August, 1988: al-Qaeda created.

Salem dies and there is much difficulty in distributing the assets from his estate. However, OBL does get considerable amounts of money which helps him expand his military capabilities.


pp 264-355


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on June 16, 2008, 10:00:08 PM
Quote
himself as martyr and financier.

And I think we all know how painful that can be!  (Sorry, just couldn't help but smile at this particular duality.)

I'm still brought up short when I realize how old--I mean young--OBL is, all those graybeard images, I guess.  I'm having trouble recalling the last video of OBL that was shown on US tv, but I continue to see his image whenever I go to buy stamps in the PO, where the "Most Wanted" posters seem to offer a consistency and continuity in an otherwise rapidly changing world (or maybe it's just that so few of those guys get caught!). 

Oddly enough, the case I'm working on involves a Pakistani national who thinks he is helping his case (he acted in pro per) by revealing all sorts of very unhelpful personal anecdotes that he thinks show his "sense of humor" that would negate the charge of stalking but is highly unlikely to win over a jury: Example, at college in Alabama he found himself prey to frat boy humor when he was taken to bars in Panama City FL (!) for his first exposure to alcohol and ended by being booted out of clubs. Another time he was bet he couldn't "pull a Madonna on Highway 231"--meaning he was left naked by the side of the road to try to catch a ride back to campus--he succeeded, but the ride he caught was with a higher up at the univ. he attended, who disgustedly gave him a coat to cover his "reverse erectile dysfunction" (left with him by the roadside was his first Playboy magazine)  I'm tellin' ya, you couldn't make this stuff up.

OK, back to book.  I really will try to stop the digressions.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 16, 2008, 10:21:07 PM

Ha, ha! Funny!!! :D


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on June 17, 2008, 05:04:11 AM
My copy of The Man Who Loved China (and American Eve) arrived in the mail today,

On a winter evening in 1938, Joseph Needham, one of Cambridge University’s most brilliant scientists — and one of its most avid skirt-chasers — lay in bed with a Chinese microbiologist who was also a colleague of Needham’s extremely tolerant wife. Enjoying a post-coital cigarette, he asked her how its name might be rendered in Chinese. His diary records that she obliged by guiding him through the ideogram for “fragrant smoke.” Charmed, he instantly resolved to learn this fascinating language. It was the first step in a project that would absorb Needham until his death in 1995, turning him into one of the foremost Western authorities on China.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/books/review/Becker-t.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I can't think of a better way to start an obsession.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: Bob on June 18, 2008, 06:25:32 AM
Madupont: Thanks for thinking of me. It's interesting that as you were asking how I was doing yesterday, I was in the process of being discharged after being in the hospital exactly 7 1/2 hours, during which they performed an angioplasty which went well. However, in the true tradition of modern medicine (managed care), the surgeon intructed me that I was not to bend, fold, spindle or mutilate myself, and that I was to lay flat on my back with my legs outstretched without a pillow for the rest of the day, rising only to eat and go to the bathroom, and, should I begin to bleed from the artery I was to compress the area with one hand and with the other, dial 911, get an ambulance and go the nearest emergency room. That really reassured me, folks!!!

Well, I've survived the night and am doing well---but can't sit for very long, but will be better able to function over the next two days....so I'll gent back into the book then.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: weezo on June 18, 2008, 06:48:23 AM
Bob,

I am glad to hear that your ordeal is over and you came out on the good side of it. Yes, managed care does send people home before they traditionally would be ready. I remember my mother being hospitalized for two weeks for the birth of my younger sisters because the doctor felt she should not take over the running of a large household too quickly and the only way to insure that was to keep her. Now, women drop their babies and go home the same day! But, to compensate, the cost for that one day of delivery and care has risen so tremendously so that the patient never feels any of the savings.



Title: Re: World History
Post by: Dzimas on June 18, 2008, 07:16:21 AM
Sorry to hear you had to go through such a hellish ordeal, Robert, and hope that you will be back on your legs soon.  All the best!


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on June 18, 2008, 10:05:28 AM
Bob -

Wow - sorry to hear you've had surgery again.  Take it easy - I'd make you a cup of jasmine tea if I could.   :-[


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 18, 2008, 05:18:39 PM
RW,


A 'Get Well' Angel just for you:



(http://www.sassycats.com/getwell9.jpg)


Title: Re: World History
Post by: bosox18d on June 19, 2008, 03:14:12 AM
Robert,Do they do IV'S of Quarter Pounders with Cheese?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 19, 2008, 01:03:50 PM
Robert,Do they do IV'S of Quarter Pounders with Cheese?


I somehow doubt it; but, I was appalled when I found out that was what they had been feeding my Mom, or at least the hospital version of it while she rested in  hospital.


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 19, 2008, 07:37:26 PM
The Bin Ladens had their tax and legal woes in the USA: real estate taxes went unpaid and there were claims of harshness to home workers. Lawsuits and countersuits followed.

With Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, the BL's saw it as an opportunity to capitalize on the Saud's infrastructural improvements. OBL warned of the impending invasion and warned that the crisis should be handled domestically without foreign interventionism. Some countries defended Saddam's invasion.  After he was defeated the Saudis took great vengeance upon nationals of those countries who resided in their land by exiling them. OBL responded angrily to this and the BLs decided to take greater care of their monies by sheltering it in foreign banks.

OBL's exile during the 90s convinced him of the righteousness of his cause. He condemned Fahd as a USA puppet and assisted Bosnian Muslims while he resided in Sudan. BL family requested that he return to Saudi Arabia but he refused.   His money was used to finance acts of terrorism and spreading of his ideas. After the WTC attack in 1993 he was denounced by the BLs.

Islamists moved to London since they were wanted as criminals in Muslim countries.

BLs invest heavily in Washington, DC but the full whereabouts of their assets remain largely unknown.

Sauds now spend huge amounts of money in their land to appease orthodox Muslims. Naturally, the BLs profit handsomely. The Hajjs increases in popularity every year and the BLs work to improve accomodations.

OBL writes even more condemnatory words about Fahd. Perhaps his alienation from his family stimulated much of his frustration and contempt.

His hatred grew more intensely.



pp 356-452


Title: Re: World History
Post by: thanatopsy on June 21, 2008, 11:03:45 PM
Telephonic communications connect the increasingly globalized world with the BLs investing heavily in the industry. Officially, they disown OBL by asserting that he "has been ex-communicated".  Somehow their communication organization was centered in Afghanistan (the writer does not indicate how this was possible) and it helps solidify the Taliban's repressive government there.

OBL plays on Muslims' sympathies by proclaiming himself a martyr who like Mohammed had been forced into exile. He writes poetry (note from me =  his writings were  the most pathetic excuse for poetry I have ever seen in my life). It reveals inner torment who is isolated from family, declares hatred for the USA, and endorsed violence. He then meets  Mullah Omar who governed the Taliban regime and who harbored him and al-Qaeda prior to 9/11.  OBL continues to rail against the west, especially regarding Chechnya, Bosnia, and its exploitation of oil.   He re-unites with Egyptian Ayman Al-Zawahiri and makes many calls to publicize his plans.

The calls are tracked by CIA agent Michael Scheuer (this is the man who interviewed Coll on C-Span) but OBL could not be accurately traced.  The latter makes his first attack on the USA by way of African embassy bombings.  Clinton retaliates but does not capture him.  Some of OBL's funds are frozen by the president.

The BLs are heavily involved with charities and international banking. Despite that, the CIA has enormous difficulty tracing the funds and their sources.  FBI attempts to make very polite and diplomatic discussions with BLs. But the latters hire attorneys who stifle the Feds. Swiss accounts are shielded from Scheuer who suggests sabotage of the BL businesses might be in order.

Bakr speaks for the BL family who fear losing money via government freezes or lawsuits. Luckily for them, they enjoy diplomatic immunity. Scheuer concludes that the BL family did give money to OBL but did not find concrete proof. Interestingly, OBL's half sisters appeared to be most helpful to him.   Later on, the 9/11 Commission also determined that the family did NOT assist OBL. Richard Clarke attempts to find OBL's  $$$ sources but is frustrated by both the CIA and FBI.

All investigators agree that OBL did not have $ 300 million as had been alleged. But no one could trace his actual resources.


pp 453-496


Title: Re: World History
Post by: madupont on June 22, 2008, 12:33:01 PM
thanatopsy,

I have my own guesses on ObL resources but I cannot make my own case to even myself!

Love the part about the  half-sisters though.   It's one of the great overlooked potential  themes of literature that reflects a human truth.

What could be more exciting in a society that suppresses extroverted activities for women than the vicarious thrill of supporting a revolutionary brother?


Title: Re: World History
Post by: nytempsperdu on June 22, 2008, 05:00:33 PM
Hearty (get it?) if belated recovery wishes, Bob! 

Thanks to than for pre- or overview of financial entanglements, which part I'm just getting into.  Interesting to see how carefully everyone seems be avoiding saying that CIA machinations weren't directly with OBL, but it's obvious funding (and arming) in support of "my enemy's enemy" in Afghanistan benefitted same. So, while the "godless Communists" were being opposed, the very godly Islamists were being empowered.   

I'm sure it's because of reading Coll's book that I found this article in today's paper of interest (and suspect others might as well):
 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/22/MNVF11D755.DTL&hw=questioning&sn=005&sc=745

   


Title: Re: World History
Post by: desdemona222b on June 24, 2008, 10:51:59 AM
Thanks for the link, nytemps.


Bob -

You doing okay this week?


Title: Fake documents online: UK false passports ID, USA fake ID cards, Australian ID for sell online
Post by: LasirDV on April 05, 2018, 03:26:30 PM
Our team is a unique producer of quality fake documents.
We offer only original high-quality fake passports, driver's licenses, ID cards, stamps and other products for a number of countries like:
USA, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Italy, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, United Kingdom. This list is not full.
 
To get the additional information and place the order just visit our website:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Contact e-mails:
 
 
General support: [email protected]
 
 
Technical support: [email protected]
 
-----------------------------
Keywords:
 
obtain fake passports,
obtain false passports,
obtain novelty passports,
obtain fake driver license,
obtain false driver license,
obtain novelty driver license,
obtain Diplomatic passports,
purchase fake passports,
purchase false passports,
purchase novelty passports,
purchase fake driver license,
purchase false driver license,
purchase novelty driver license,
purchase Diplomatic passports,
sell fake passports,
sell false passports,
sell novelty passports,
sell fake driver license,
sell false driver license,
sell novelty driver license,
get fake passports,
get false passports,
get novelty passports,
get fake driving license,
get false driving license,
get novelty driver license,
get Diplomatic passports,
 
buy Argentine fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Australian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy buy Austrian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Belgian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Brazilian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Bulgarian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Canadian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Chinese fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Cuban fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Cypriot fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Czech fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Danish fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Dominican Republic fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Ecuadorian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Estonian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Finnish fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy French fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy German fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Greek fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Hungarian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Icelandic fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Indian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Indonesian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Irish fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Israeli fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Italian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Japanese fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Korean fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Latvian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Lithuanian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Luxembourgian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Malaysian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Mexican fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Monegasque fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Dutch fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy New Zealand fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Norwegian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Philippine fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Polish fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Portuguese fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Romanian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Russian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Saudi Arabia fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Singapore fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Slovak fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Slovenian fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy South African fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Spanish fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Swedish fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Swiss fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Taiwan fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Thai fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Turkish fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy Emirati fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
buy British fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
American fake passports driving licence id card for sale online
=========================================================================
fake passport canada, novelty id templates, novelty id cards, drivers license templates, novelty identity cards, proof id card, michigan id card, how to make id cards, passport identity theft, drivers license holograms, how to get a passport to canada,phatism id,fake student id,driver license id,new hampshire identification card,make an id card,novelty id card,drivers licence template,make a id card,driving licence id,drivers license hologram,age id card,novelty id template,photo id template,passport canada printable forms,pick n save employment application,novelty id cards canada,proof of age id,california novelty id,how to get a id card,how to get a identification card,photo id templates,age identification card,fake id proof of age,authentic fake id,fluxcard id,id templates for free,id template download,identity theft passport,free drivers license template,photo id driving licence,passport drivers license,phatism id cards,completing passport application,proof of age identity cards,drivers licence templates,holograms for ids,novelty cards id,proof of identity cards,driver license hologram,make a passport online,driving license template,old navy job application online form,need fake id,templates for id cards,secrets of a back alley id man,proof of id card,fake id with pass hologram,online job application old navy,free id card template download,make free id,how to make identity card,scannable novelty id,renewing canadian passports online,free photo id template,canadian passport renewal forms online,download id templates,cards created theidshop,how to get identification,cards through theidshop,british passport for sale,template for id card,fake id pass hologram,novelty id maker,free novelty id templates,buy student id,pass hologram fake id,free id templates download,belvine id,templates for id,driver license passport,how to make id holograms,make your own drivers licence,can i get a passport without a birth certificate,photoidcards.com,novelty photo id,how to get identification card,how to get your id card,ca drivers license template,passport identification card,how to make birth certificates,birth certificate identification,how to make a student id card,picture id template,novelty student card,how to make a fake id easy,driving licence proof identity,buy id holograms,cards created through theidshop,fake college id templates


Title: ACQUISTA UN PASSAPORTO AUSTRALIANO REALE ON LINE,ACQUISTA UN PASSAPORTO REALE IN REGNO UNITO ON LINE
Post by: KindzaK on April 13, 2018, 06:41:30 AM
Il nostro team e un produttore unico di documenti falsi di qualita.
Offriamo solo passaporti diplomatici falsi di alta qualita originali, patenti di guida, carte d'identita, francobolli e altri prodotti per un certo numero di paesi come:
USA, Australia, Belgio, Brasile, Canada, Italia, Finlandia, Francia, Germania, Paesi Bassi, Spagna, Regno Unito. Questo elenco non e completo.
 
Per ottenere le informazioni aggiuntive e effettuare l'ordine basta visitare il nostro sito Web:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Contatti e-mail:
 
 
Supporto generale: [email protected]
 
Supporto tecnico: [email protected]
 
-----------------------------------
parole chiave:
 
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Albania
acquista il passaporto reale online in Algeria
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online di Andorra
acquista il passaporto reale online online dell'Angola
acquista il passaporto reale online in Argentina
acquista il passaporto reale online online dell'Australia
acquista il passaporto reale online online dell'Austria
Compra il vero passaporto registrato online delle Bahamas
acquista il passaporto reale online in Bahrein
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Bangladesh
acquista il passaporto reale online online delle Barbados
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Belgio
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Belize
acquista il passaporto reale online online del Benin
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Bolivia
Compra il vero passaporto registrato online della Bosnia Erzegovina
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Botswana
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Brasile
Compra il vero passaporto registrato online del Brunei
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Bulgaria
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online del Burundi
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Cambogia
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online del Camerun
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Canada
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Cile
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Colombia
acquista il passaporto reale online online di Congo Democratic Rep
Compra il vero passaporto registrato online in Costa Rica
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online della Croazia
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online di Cuba
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online di Cipro
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online della Repubblica Ceca
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Danimarca
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online di Gibuti
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato di Dominica
Compra il vero passaporto registrato online della Repubblica Dominicana
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online in Ecuador
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online in Egitto
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online di El Salvador
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online della Guinea Equatoriale
acquista il passaporto reale online online dell'Eritrea
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online in Estonia
comprare un vero passaporto registrato online in Etiopia
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online delle isole Figi
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Finlandia
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Francia
acquista il passaporto reale online in Gambia
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Germania
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Ghana
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online della Grecia
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online di Grenada
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Guatemala
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online della Guinea-Bissau
comprare il passaporto reale online in Guyana
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online di Haiti
acquista il passaporto reale online online dell'Honduras
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online dell'Ungheria
Compra il vero passaporto registrato online dell'Islanda
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in India
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online dell'Indonesia
acquista il passaporto reale online online della Repubblica d'Irlanda
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Italia
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online in Giamaica
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Giappone
acquista il passaporto reale online in Giordania
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Kenya
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online di Korea South
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online in Kosovo
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Kuwait
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online del Laos
comprare il passaporto reale registrato online della Lettonia
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Libano
acquistare un vero passaporto registrato online del Liechtenstein
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Lituania
acquista il passaporto reale online in Lussemburgo
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online della Macedonia
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online della Malesia
acquista il passaporto reale online online delle Maldive
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online del Mali
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online di Mauritius
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Messico
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online della Micronesia
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online di Monaco
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online del Montenegro
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Marocco
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Mozambico
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Myanmar, Birmania
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online della Namibia
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online di Nauru
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Nepal
acquista il passaporto reale online online dei Paesi Bassi
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online della Nuova Zelanda
acquista il passaporto reale online in Nicaragua
comprare passaporto reale online online della Nigeria
acquista il passaporto reale online in Norvegia
acquista il passaporto reale online in Oman
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Pakistan
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online di Palau
comprare un vero passaporto registrato online di Panama
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Peru
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato delle Filippine
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Polonia
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Portogallo
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Qatar
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Romania
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online dell'Arabia Saudita
acquista il passaporto reale online in Senegal
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online della Serbia
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online di Singapore
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Slovacchia
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online della Slovenia
comprare un passaporto reale online registrato in Somalia
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato in Sud Africa
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Spagna
acquista il passaporto reale online online della Svezia
acquista il passaporto reale online registrato in Svizzera
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online della Tailandia
acquistare un vero passaporto registrato online della Turchia
acquista un vero passaporto registrato online negli Emirati Arabi Uniti
acquista il vero passaporto registrato online del Regno Unito
comprare il passaporto reale online registrato negli Stati Uniti
 
===================================
 
passaporto falso canada, modelli id ??di novita, carte d'identita novita, modelli di patenti di guida, carte d'identita novita, carta d'identita, carta d'identita michigan, come fare carte d'identita, furto d'identita passaporto, ologrammi di patenti di guida, come ottenere un passaporto in Canada, id phatism, id studente fasullo, patente di guida id, nuova carta d'identita hampshire, fare una carta d'identita, carta d'identita novita, modello di patente di guida, fare una carta d'identita, id della patente di guida, ologramma della patente di guida, carta d'identita dell'eta, modello di identificazione della novita, modello di identificazione di foto, moduli stampabili di passaporto canada, raccogliere n salvare domanda di occupazione, carte d'identita novita canada, prova di id di eta, California id novita, come ottenere una carta d'identita, come ottenere una carta d'identita, modelli di identificazione di foto, carta d'identita di eta , prova falsa id di eta, autentica id falsa, id di fluxcard, modelli di id gratuiti, modello di identificazione download, passaporto di identita, modello di patente di guida gratuito, patente di guida con foto, patente di guida passaporto, carte di identita di phatismo, compilazione di domanda di passaporto, prova di carte d'identita di eta, dott modelli di licenza ivers, ologrammi per identificativi, identificazione carte novita, prova di carte d'identita, ologramma licenza autista, creazione di un passaporto online, modello di patente di guida, modulo di domanda di lavoro precedente, bisogno di un falso id, modelli di carte d'identita, segreti di una schiena vicolo id id, prova di carta d'identita, id falso con pass hologram, domanda di lavoro online vecchia marina, download gratuito


Title: Buy fake diplomatic UK passports online/USA false id card for sell/Brazilian real passport order
Post by: LotbrockG on April 16, 2018, 06:01:59 AM
Our team is a unique producer of quality fake documents.
We offer only original high-quality fake passports, driver's licenses, ID cards, stamps and other products for a number of countries like:
USA, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Italy, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, United Kingdom. This list is not full.
 
To get the additional information and place the order just visit our website:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Contact e-mails:
 
 
General support: [email protected]
 
 
Technical support: [email protected]
 
 
-----------------------------
Keywords:
 
sale false/fake passports of Afghanistan
sale false/fake passports of Albania
sale false/fake passports of Algeria
sale false/fake passports of Andorra
sale false/fake passports of Angola
sale false/fake passports of Antigua & Deps
sale false/fake passports of Argentina
sale false/fake passports of Armenia
sale false/fake passports of Australia
sale false/fake passports of Austria
sale false/fake passports of Azerbaijan
sale false/fake passports of Bahamas
sale false/fake passports of Bahrain
sale false/fake passports of Bangladesh
sale false/fake passports of Barbados
sale false/fake passports of Belarus
sale false/fake passports of Belgium
sale false/fake passports of Belize
sale false/fake passports of Benin
sale false/fake passports of Bhutan
sale false/fake passports of Bolivia
sale false/fake passports of Bosnia Herzegovina
sale false/fake passports of Botswana
sale false/fake passports of Brazil
sale false/fake passports of Brunei
sale false/fake passports of Bulgaria
sale false/fake passports of Burkina
sale false/fake passports of Burundi
sale false/fake passports of Cambodia
sale false/fake passports of Cameroon
sale false/fake passports of Canada
sale false/fake passports of Cape Verde
sale false/fake passports of Central African Rep
sale false/fake passports of Chad
sale false/fake passports of Chile
sale false/fake passports of China
sale false/fake passports of Colombia
sale false/fake passports of Comoros
sale false/fake passports of Congo
sale false/fake passports of Congo Democratic Rep
sale false/fake passports of Costa Rica
sale false/fake passports of Croatia
sale false/fake passports of Cuba
sale false/fake passports of Cyprus
sale false/fake passports of Czech Republic
sale false/fake passports of Denmark
sale false/fake passports of Djibouti
sale false/fake passports of Dominica
sale false/fake passports of Dominican Republic
sale false/fake passports of East Timor
sale false/fake passports of Ecuador
sale false/fake passports of Egypt
sale false/fake passports of El Salvador
sale false/fake passports of Equatorial Guinea
sale false/fake passports of Eritrea
sale false/fake passports of Estonia
sale false/fake passports of Ethiopia
sale false/fake passports of Fiji
sale false/fake passports of Finland
sale false/fake passports of France
sale false/fake passports of Gabon
sale false/fake passports of Gambia
sale false/fake passports of Georgia
sale false/fake passports of Germany
sale false/fake passports of Ghana
sale false/fake passports of Greece
sale false/fake passports of Grenada
sale false/fake passports of Guatemala
sale false/fake passports of Guinea
sale false/fake passports of Guinea-Bissau
sale false/fake passports of Guyana
sale false/fake passports of Haiti
sale false/fake passports of Honduras
sale false/fake passports of Hungary
sale false/fake passports of Iceland
sale false/fake passports of India
sale false/fake passports of Indonesia
sale false/fake passports of Iran
sale false/fake passports of Iraq
sale false/fake passports of Ireland Republic
sale false/fake passports of Israel
sale false/fake passports of Italy
sale false/fake passports of Ivory Coast
sale false/fake passports of Jamaica
sale false/fake passports of Japan
sale false/fake passports of Jordan
sale false/fake passports of Kazakhstan
sale false/fake passports of Kenya
sale false/fake passports of Kiribati
sale false/fake passports of Korea North
sale false/fake passports of Korea South
sale false/fake passports of Kosovo
sale false/fake passports of Kuwait
sale false/fake passports of Kyrgyzstan
sale false/fake passports of Laos
sale false/fake passports of Latvia
sale false/fake passports of Lebanon
sale false/fake passports of Lesotho
sale false/fake passports of Liberia
sale false/fake passports of Libya
sale false/fake passports of Liechtenstein
sale false/fake passports of Lithuania
sale false/fake passports of Luxembourg
sale false/fake passports of Macedonia
sale false/fake passports of Madagascar
sale false/fake passports of Malawi
sale false/fake passports of Malaysia
sale false/fake passports of Maldives
sale false/fake passports of Mali
sale false/fake passports of Malta
sale false/fake passports of Marshall Islands
sale false/fake passports of Mauritania
sale false/fake passports of Mauritius
sale false/fake passports of Mexico
sale false/fake passports of Micronesia
sale false/fake passports of Moldova
sale false/fake passports of Monaco
sale false/fake passports of Mongolia
sale false/fake passports of Montenegro
sale false/fake passports of Morocco
sale false/fake passports of Mozambique
sale false/fake passports of Myanmar, Burma
sale false/fake passports of Namibia
sale false/fake passports of Nauru
sale false/fake passports of Nepal
sale false/fake passports of Netherlands
sale false/fake passports of New Zealand
sale false/fake passports of Nicaragua
sale false/fake passports of Niger
sale false/fake passports of Nigeria
sale false/fake passports of Norway
sale false/fake passports of Oman
sale false/fake passports of Pakistan
sale false/fake passports of Palau
sale false/fake passports of Panama
sale false/fake passports of Papua New Guinea
sale false/fake passports of Paraguay
sale false/fake passports of Peru
sale false/fake passports of Philippines
sale false/fake passports of Poland
sale false/fake passports of Portugal
sale false/fake passports of Qatar
sale false/fake passports of Romania
sale false/fake passports of Russian Federation
sale false/fake passports of Rwanda
sale false/fake passports of St Kitts & Nevis
sale false/fake passports of St Lucia
sale false/fake passports of Saint Vincent & the Grenadines
sale false/fake passports of Samoa
sale false/fake passports of San Marino
sale false/fake passports of Sao Tome & Principe
sale false/fake passports of Saudi Arabia
sale false/fake passports of Senegal
sale false/fake passports of Serbia
sale false/fake passports of Seychelles
sale false/fake passports of Sierra Leone
sale false/fake passports of Singapore
sale false/fake passports of Slovakia
sale false/fake passports of Slovenia
sale false/fake passports of Solomon Islands
sale false/fake passports of Somalia
sale false/fake passports of South Africa
sale false/fake passports of Spain
sale false/fake passports of Sri Lanka
sale false/fake passports of Sudan
sale false/fake passports of Suriname
sale false/fake passports of Swaziland
sale false/fake passports of Sweden
sale false/fake passports of Switzerland
sale false/fake passports of Syria
sale false/fake passports of Taiwan
sale false/fake passports of Tajikistan
sale false/fake passports of Tanzania
sale false/fake passports of Thailand
sale false/fake passports of Togo
sale false/fake passports of Tonga
sale false/fake passports of Trinidad & Tobago
sale false/fake passports of Tunisia
sale false/fake passports of Turkey
sale false/fake passports of Turkmenistan
sale false/fake passports of Tuvalu
sale false/fake passports of Uganda
sale false/fake passports of Ukraine
sale false/fake passports of United Arab Emirates
sale false/fake passports of United Kingdom
sale false/fake passports of United States
sale false/fake passports of Uruguay
sale false/fake passports of Uzbekistan
sale false/fake passports of Vanuatu
sale false/fake passports of Vatican City
sale false/fake passports of Venezuela
sale false/fake passports of Vietnam
sale false/fake passports of Yemen
sale false/fake passports of Zambia
sale false/fake passports of Zimbabwe
================================
Novelty Alabama ID Novelty Alaska ID Novelty Alberta ID Novelty Arizona ID Novelty Arkansas ID Novelty Australian Capital ID Novelty British Columbia ID Novelty California ID Novelty Colorado ID Novelty Connecticut ID Novelty Delaware ID Novelty Florida ID Novelty Georgia ID Novelty Hawaii ID Novelty Queensland ID Novelty Rhode Island ID


Title: Buy fake diplomatic UK passports online/USA false id card for sell/Brazilian real passport order
Post by: LotbrockG on April 16, 2018, 06:04:02 AM
Our team is a unique producer of quality fake documents.
We offer only original high-quality fake passports, driver's licenses, ID cards, stamps and other products for a number of countries like:
USA, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Italy, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, United Kingdom. This list is not full.
 
To get the additional information and place the order just visit our website:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Contact e-mails:
 
 
General support: [email protected]
 
 
Technical support: [email protected]
 
 
-----------------------------
Keywords:
 
sale false/fake passports of Afghanistan
sale false/fake passports of Albania
sale false/fake passports of Algeria
sale false/fake passports of Andorra
sale false/fake passports of Angola
sale false/fake passports of Antigua & Deps
sale false/fake passports of Argentina
sale false/fake passports of Armenia
sale false/fake passports of Australia
sale false/fake passports of Austria
sale false/fake passports of Azerbaijan
sale false/fake passports of Bahamas
sale false/fake passports of Bahrain
sale false/fake passports of Bangladesh
sale false/fake passports of Barbados
sale false/fake passports of Belarus
sale false/fake passports of Belgium
sale false/fake passports of Belize
sale false/fake passports of Benin
sale false/fake passports of Bhutan
sale false/fake passports of Bolivia
sale false/fake passports of Bosnia Herzegovina
sale false/fake passports of Botswana
sale false/fake passports of Brazil
sale false/fake passports of Brunei
sale false/fake passports of Bulgaria
sale false/fake passports of Burkina
sale false/fake passports of Burundi
sale false/fake passports of Cambodia
sale false/fake passports of Cameroon
sale false/fake passports of Canada
sale false/fake passports of Cape Verde
sale false/fake passports of Central African Rep
sale false/fake passports of Chad
sale false/fake passports of Chile
sale false/fake passports of China
sale false/fake passports of Colombia
sale false/fake passports of Comoros
sale false/fake passports of Congo
sale false/fake passports of Congo Democratic Rep
sale false/fake passports of Costa Rica
sale false/fake passports of Croatia
sale false/fake passports of Cuba
sale false/fake passports of Cyprus
sale false/fake passports of Czech Republic
sale false/fake passports of Denmark
sale false/fake passports of Djibouti
sale false/fake passports of Dominica
sale false/fake passports of Dominican Republic
sale false/fake passports of East Timor
sale false/fake passports of Ecuador
sale false/fake passports of Egypt
sale false/fake passports of El Salvador
sale false/fake passports of Equatorial Guinea
sale false/fake passports of Eritrea
sale false/fake passports of Estonia
sale false/fake passports of Ethiopia
sale false/fake passports of Fiji
sale false/fake passports of Finland
sale false/fake passports of France
sale false/fake passports of Gabon
sale false/fake passports of Gambia
sale false/fake passports of Georgia
sale false/fake passports of Germany
sale false/fake passports of Ghana
sale false/fake passports of Greece
sale false/fake passports of Grenada
sale false/fake passports of Guatemala
sale false/fake passports of Guinea
sale false/fake passports of Guinea-Bissau
sale false/fake passports of Guyana
sale false/fake passports of Haiti
sale false/fake passports of Honduras
sale false/fake passports of Hungary
sale false/fake passports of Iceland
sale false/fake passports of India
sale false/fake passports of Indonesia
sale false/fake passports of Iran
sale false/fake passports of Iraq
sale false/fake passports of Ireland Republic
sale false/fake passports of Israel
sale false/fake passports of Italy
sale false/fake passports of Ivory Coast
sale false/fake passports of Jamaica
sale false/fake passports of Japan
sale false/fake passports of Jordan
sale false/fake passports of Kazakhstan
sale false/fake passports of Kenya
sale false/fake passports of Kiribati
sale false/fake passports of Korea North
sale false/fake passports of Korea South
sale false/fake passports of Kosovo
sale false/fake passports of Kuwait
sale false/fake passports of Kyrgyzstan
sale false/fake passports of Laos
sale false/fake passports of Latvia
sale false/fake passports of Lebanon
sale false/fake passports of Lesotho
sale false/fake passports of Liberia
sale false/fake passports of Libya
sale false/fake passports of Liechtenstein
sale false/fake passports of Lithuania
sale false/fake passports of Luxembourg
sale false/fake passports of Macedonia
sale false/fake passports of Madagascar
sale false/fake passports of Malawi
sale false/fake passports of Malaysia
sale false/fake passports of Maldives
sale false/fake passports of Mali
sale false/fake passports of Malta
sale false/fake passports of Marshall Islands
sale false/fake passports of Mauritania
sale false/fake passports of Mauritius
sale false/fake passports of Mexico
sale false/fake passports of Micronesia
sale false/fake passports of Moldova
sale false/fake passports of Monaco
sale false/fake passports of Mongolia
sale false/fake passports of Montenegro
sale false/fake passports of Morocco
sale false/fake passports of Mozambique
sale false/fake passports of Myanmar, Burma
sale false/fake passports of Namibia
sale false/fake passports of Nauru
sale false/fake passports of Nepal
sale false/fake passports of Netherlands
sale false/fake passports of New Zealand
sale false/fake passports of Nicaragua
sale false/fake passports of Niger
sale false/fake passports of Nigeria
sale false/fake passports of Norway
sale false/fake passports of Oman
sale false/fake passports of Pakistan
sale false/fake passports of Palau
sale false/fake passports of Panama
sale false/fake passports of Papua New Guinea
sale false/fake passports of Paraguay
sale false/fake passports of Peru
sale false/fake passports of Philippines
sale false/fake passports of Poland
sale false/fake passports of Portugal
sale false/fake passports of Qatar
sale false/fake passports of Romania
sale false/fake passports of Russian Federation
sale false/fake passports of Rwanda
sale false/fake passports of St Kitts & Nevis
sale false/fake passports of St Lucia
sale false/fake passports of Saint Vincent & the Grenadines
sale false/fake passports of Samoa
sale false/fake passports of San Marino
sale false/fake passports of Sao Tome & Principe
sale false/fake passports of Saudi Arabia
sale false/fake passports of Senegal
sale false/fake passports of Serbia
sale false/fake passports of Seychelles
sale false/fake passports of Sierra Leone
sale false/fake passports of Singapore
sale false/fake passports of Slovakia
sale false/fake passports of Slovenia
sale false/fake passports of Solomon Islands
sale false/fake passports of Somalia
sale false/fake passports of South Africa
sale false/fake passports of Spain
sale false/fake passports of Sri Lanka
sale false/fake passports of Sudan
sale false/fake passports of Suriname
sale false/fake passports of Swaziland
sale false/fake passports of Sweden
sale false/fake passports of Switzerland
sale false/fake passports of Syria
sale false/fake passports of Taiwan
sale false/fake passports of Tajikistan
sale false/fake passports of Tanzania
sale false/fake passports of Thailand
sale false/fake passports of Togo
sale false/fake passports of Tonga
sale false/fake passports of Trinidad & Tobago
sale false/fake passports of Tunisia
sale false/fake passports of Turkey
sale false/fake passports of Turkmenistan
sale false/fake passports of Tuvalu
sale false/fake passports of Uganda
sale false/fake passports of Ukraine
sale false/fake passports of United Arab Emirates
sale false/fake passports of United Kingdom
sale false/fake passports of United States
sale false/fake passports of Uruguay
sale false/fake passports of Uzbekistan
sale false/fake passports of Vanuatu
sale false/fake passports of Vatican City
sale false/fake passports of Venezuela
sale false/fake passports of Vietnam
sale false/fake passports of Yemen
sale false/fake passports of Zambia
sale false/fake passports of Zimbabwe
================================
Novelty Alabama ID Novelty Alaska ID Novelty Alberta ID Novelty Arizona ID Novelty Arkansas ID Novelty Australian Capital ID Novelty British Columbia ID Novelty California ID Novelty Colorado ID Novelty Connecticut ID Novelty Delaware ID Novelty Florida ID Novelty Georgia ID Novelty Hawaii ID Novelty Queensland ID Novelty Rhode Island ID


Title: Compre el pasaporte diplomatico canadiense en linea / la tarjeta de identificacion falsa bulgara par
Post by: LasirDV on April 16, 2018, 06:26:54 PM
Nuestro equipo es un productor unico de documentos falsos de calidad.
Ofrecemos solo pasaportes, licencias de conducir, tarjetas de identificacion, sellos y otros productos falsos originales de alta calidad para una cantidad de paises como:
Estados Unidos, Australia, Belgica, Brasil, Canada, Italia, Finlandia, Francia, Alemania, Paises Bajos, Espana, Reino Unido. Esta lista no esta llena.
 
Para obtener la informacion adicional y realizar el pedido simplemente visite nuestro sitio web:
 
 
 
http://www buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> E-mails de contacto:
 
 
Soporte general: [email protected]
 
 
Soporte tecnico: [email protected]
 
-----------------------------------
Palabras clave:
 
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Afganistan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Albania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Argelia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Andorra
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Angola
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Antigua & Deps
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Argentina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Armenia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Australia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Austria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Azerbaiyan
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bahamas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bahrein
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bangladesh
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Barbados
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Belgica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Belice
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Benin
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Bhutan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bolivia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bosnia Herzegovina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Botswana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Brasil
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Brunei
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bulgaria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Burkina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Burundi
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Camboya
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Camerun
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Canada
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Cabo Verde
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Rep. Centroafricana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chad
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chile
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de China
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Colombia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Comoras
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Congo
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Congo Democratic Rep
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Costa Rica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Croacia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Cuba
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chipre
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de la Republica Checa
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Dinamarca
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Djibouti
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Dominica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Republica Dominicana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Timor Oriental
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Ecuador
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Egipto
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de El Salvador
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea Ecuatorial
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eritrea
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Estonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Etiopia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Fiji
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Finlandia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Francia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Gabon
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Gambia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Georgia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Alemania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Ghana
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Grecia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Granada
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guatemala
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea-Bissau
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Guyana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Haiti
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Honduras
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Hungria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Islandia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de India
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Indonesia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Iran
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Iraq
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Irlanda Republica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Israel
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Italia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Jamaica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Japon
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Jordania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kazajstan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kenia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Corea del Sur
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kosovo
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kuwait
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Laos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Letonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Libia
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Liechtenstein
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Lituania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Luxemburgo
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Macedonia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Malasia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Maldivas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mali
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Malta
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de las Islas Marshall
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mauritania
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mauricio
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mexico
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Micronesia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Moldavia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Monaco
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mongolia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Montenegro
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Marruecos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mozambique
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Myanmar, Birmania
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Namibia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nauru
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nepal
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de los Paises Bajos
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nueva Zelanda
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nicaragua
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Niger
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nigeria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Noruega
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Oman
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Pakistan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Palau
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Panama
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea del Peru
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Filipinas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Polonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Portugal
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Qatar
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Rumania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de la Federacion Rusa
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Arabia Saudita
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Senegal
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Serbia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Singapur
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eslovaquia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eslovenia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Somalia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Sudafrica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Espana
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Suecia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Suiza
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Tailandia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Turquia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Emiratos Arabes Unidos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea del Reino Unido
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Estados Unidos


Title: Compre el pasaporte diplomatico canadiense en linea / la tarjeta de identificacion falsa bulgara par
Post by: LasirDV on April 16, 2018, 06:27:34 PM
Nuestro equipo es un productor unico de documentos falsos de calidad.
Ofrecemos solo pasaportes, licencias de conducir, tarjetas de identificacion, sellos y otros productos falsos originales de alta calidad para una cantidad de paises como:
Estados Unidos, Australia, Belgica, Brasil, Canada, Italia, Finlandia, Francia, Alemania, Paises Bajos, Espana, Reino Unido. Esta lista no esta llena.
 
Para obtener la informacion adicional y realizar el pedido simplemente visite nuestro sitio web:
 
 
 
http://www buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> E-mails de contacto:
 
 
Soporte general: [email protected]
 
 
Soporte tecnico: [email protected]
 
-----------------------------------
Palabras clave:
 
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Afganistan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Albania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Argelia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Andorra
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Angola
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Antigua & Deps
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Argentina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Armenia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Australia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Austria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Azerbaiyan
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bahamas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bahrein
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bangladesh
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Barbados
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Belgica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Belice
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Benin
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Bhutan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bolivia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bosnia Herzegovina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Botswana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Brasil
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Brunei
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bulgaria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Burkina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Burundi
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Camboya
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Camerun
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Canada
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Cabo Verde
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Rep. Centroafricana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chad
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chile
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de China
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Colombia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Comoras
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Congo
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Congo Democratic Rep
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Costa Rica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Croacia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Cuba
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chipre
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de la Republica Checa
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Dinamarca
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Djibouti
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Dominica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Republica Dominicana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Timor Oriental
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Ecuador
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Egipto
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de El Salvador
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea Ecuatorial
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eritrea
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Estonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Etiopia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Fiji
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Finlandia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Francia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Gabon
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Gambia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Georgia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Alemania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Ghana
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Grecia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Granada
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guatemala
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea-Bissau
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Guyana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Haiti
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Honduras
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Hungria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Islandia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de India
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Indonesia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Iran
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Iraq
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Irlanda Republica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Israel
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Italia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Jamaica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Japon
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Jordania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kazajstan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kenia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Corea del Sur
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kosovo
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kuwait
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Laos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Letonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Libia
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Liechtenstein
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Lituania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Luxemburgo
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Macedonia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Malasia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Maldivas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mali
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Malta
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de las Islas Marshall
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mauritania
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mauricio
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mexico
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Micronesia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Moldavia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Monaco
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mongolia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Montenegro
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Marruecos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mozambique
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Myanmar, Birmania
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Namibia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nauru
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nepal
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de los Paises Bajos
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nueva Zelanda
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nicaragua
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Niger
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nigeria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Noruega
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Oman
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Pakistan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Palau
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Panama
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea del Peru
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Filipinas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Polonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Portugal
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Qatar
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Rumania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de la Federacion Rusa
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Arabia Saudita
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Senegal
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Serbia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Singapur
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eslovaquia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eslovenia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Somalia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Sudafrica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Espana
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Suecia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Suiza
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Tailandia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Turquia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Emiratos Arabes Unidos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea del Reino Unido
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Estados Unidos


Title: Compre el pasaporte diplomatico canadiense en linea / la tarjeta de identificacion falsa bulgara par
Post by: LasirDV on April 16, 2018, 06:33:46 PM
Nuestro equipo es un productor unico de documentos falsos de calidad.
Ofrecemos solo pasaportes, licencias de conducir, tarjetas de identificacion, sellos y otros productos falsos originales de alta calidad para una cantidad de paises como:
Estados Unidos, Australia, Belgica, Brasil, Canada, Italia, Finlandia, Francia, Alemania, Paises Bajos, Espana, Reino Unido. Esta lista no esta llena.
 
Para obtener la informacion adicional y realizar el pedido simplemente visite nuestro sitio web:
 
 
 
http://www buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> E-mails de contacto:
 
 
Soporte general: [email protected]
 
 
Soporte tecnico: [email protected]
 
-----------------------------------
Palabras clave:
 
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Afganistan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Albania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Argelia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Andorra
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Angola
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Antigua & Deps
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Argentina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Armenia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Australia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Austria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Azerbaiyan
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bahamas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bahrein
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bangladesh
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Barbados
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Belgica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Belice
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Benin
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Bhutan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bolivia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bosnia Herzegovina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Botswana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Brasil
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Brunei
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bulgaria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Burkina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Burundi
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Camboya
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Camerun
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Canada
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Cabo Verde
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Rep. Centroafricana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chad
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chile
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de China
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Colombia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Comoras
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Congo
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Congo Democratic Rep
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Costa Rica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Croacia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Cuba
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chipre
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de la Republica Checa
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Dinamarca
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Djibouti
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Dominica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Republica Dominicana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Timor Oriental
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Ecuador
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Egipto
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de El Salvador
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea Ecuatorial
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eritrea
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Estonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Etiopia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Fiji
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Finlandia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Francia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Gabon
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Gambia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Georgia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Alemania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Ghana
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Grecia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Granada
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guatemala
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea-Bissau
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Guyana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Haiti
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Honduras
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Hungria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Islandia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de India
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Indonesia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Iran
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Iraq
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Irlanda Republica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Israel
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Italia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Jamaica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Japon
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Jordania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kazajstan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kenia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Corea del Sur
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kosovo
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kuwait
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Laos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Letonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Libia
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Liechtenstein
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Lituania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Luxemburgo
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Macedonia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Malasia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Maldivas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mali
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Malta
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de las Islas Marshall
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mauritania
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mauricio
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mexico
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Micronesia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Moldavia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Monaco
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mongolia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Montenegro
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Marruecos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mozambique
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Myanmar, Birmania
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Namibia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nauru
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nepal
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de los Paises Bajos
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nueva Zelanda
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nicaragua
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Niger
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nigeria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Noruega
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Oman
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Pakistan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Palau
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Panama
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea del Peru
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Filipinas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Polonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Portugal
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Qatar
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Rumania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de la Federacion Rusa
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Arabia Saudita
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Senegal
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Serbia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Singapur
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eslovaquia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eslovenia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Somalia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Sudafrica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Espana
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Suecia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Suiza
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Tailandia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Turquia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Emiratos Arabes Unidos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea del Reino Unido
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Estados Unidos


Title: Compre el pasaporte diplomatico canadiense en linea / la tarjeta de identificacion falsa bulgara par
Post by: LasirDV on April 16, 2018, 06:42:12 PM
Nuestro equipo es un productor unico de documentos falsos de calidad.
Ofrecemos solo pasaportes, licencias de conducir, tarjetas de identificacion, sellos y otros productos falsos originales de alta calidad para una cantidad de paises como:
Estados Unidos, Australia, Belgica, Brasil, Canada, Italia, Finlandia, Francia, Alemania, Paises Bajos, Espana, Reino Unido. Esta lista no esta llena.
 
Para obtener la informacion adicional y realizar el pedido simplemente visite nuestro sitio web:
 
 
 
http://www buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> E-mails de contacto:
 
 
Soporte general: [email protected]
 
 
Soporte tecnico: [email protected]
 
-----------------------------------
Palabras clave:
 
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Afganistan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Albania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Argelia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Andorra
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Angola
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Antigua & Deps
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Argentina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Armenia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Australia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Austria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Azerbaiyan
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bahamas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bahrein
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bangladesh
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Barbados
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Belgica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Belice
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Benin
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Bhutan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bolivia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bosnia Herzegovina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Botswana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Brasil
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Brunei
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Bulgaria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Burkina
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Burundi
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Camboya
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Camerun
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Canada
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Cabo Verde
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Rep. Centroafricana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chad
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chile
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de China
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Colombia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Comoras
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Congo
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Congo Democratic Rep
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Costa Rica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Croacia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Cuba
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Chipre
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de la Republica Checa
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Dinamarca
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Djibouti
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Dominica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Republica Dominicana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Timor Oriental
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Ecuador
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Egipto
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de El Salvador
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea Ecuatorial
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eritrea
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Estonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Etiopia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Fiji
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Finlandia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Francia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Gabon
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Gambia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Georgia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Alemania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Ghana
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Grecia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Granada
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guatemala
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Guinea-Bissau
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Guyana
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Haiti
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Honduras
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Hungria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Islandia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de India
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Indonesia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Iran
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Iraq
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Irlanda Republica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Israel
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Italia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Jamaica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Japon
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Jordania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kazajstan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kenia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Corea del Sur
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kosovo
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Kuwait
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Laos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Letonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Libia
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Liechtenstein
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Lituania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Luxemburgo
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Macedonia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Malasia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Maldivas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mali
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Malta
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de las Islas Marshall
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mauritania
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mauricio
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mexico
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Micronesia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Moldavia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Monaco
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mongolia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Montenegro
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Marruecos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Mozambique
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Myanmar, Birmania
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Namibia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nauru
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nepal
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de los Paises Bajos
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nueva Zelanda
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nicaragua
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Niger
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Nigeria
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Noruega
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Oman
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Pakistan
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Palau
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Panama
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea del Peru
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Filipinas
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Polonia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Portugal
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Qatar
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Rumania
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de la Federacion Rusa
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Arabia Saudita
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Senegal
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Serbia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Singapur
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eslovaquia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Eslovenia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Somalia
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Sudafrica
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Espana
comprar pasaporte falso falso en linea de Suecia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Suiza
comprar falso pasaporte falso en linea de Tailandia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Turquia
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Emiratos Arabes Unidos
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea del Reino Unido
compra falso pasaporte falso en linea de Estados Unidos


Title: Kaufen gefalschte Niederlandische Pass-ID-Karte online / Portugal FAKE PASSPORT zu verkaufen / BELGI
Post by: LasirDV on April 20, 2018, 05:57:40 PM
Unser Team ist ein einzigartiger Hersteller von qualitativ hochwertigen gefalschten Dokumenten.
Wir bieten nur Original gefalschte Reisepasse, Fuhrerscheine, ID-Karten, Briefmarken und andere Produkte fur eine Reihe von Landern wie:
USA, Australien, Belgien, Brasilien, Kanada, Italien, Finnland, Frankreich, Deutschland, Niederlande, Spanien, Vereinigtes Konigreich. Diese Liste ist nicht voll.
 
Um die zusatzlichen Informationen zu erhalten und die Bestellung aufzugeben, besuchen Sie einfach unsere Website:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Kontakt E-Mails:
 
 
Allgemeine Unterstutzung: [email protected]
 
 
Technischer Support: [email protected]
 
-----------------------------------
Schlusselworter:
 
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Albanien
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepass online von Algerien
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepass online von Andorra
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Angola
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Pass online von Argentinien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Australien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Osterreich
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Bahamas
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Bahrain
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Bangladesch
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Barbados
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Belgien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Belize
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Benin
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Bhutan
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Bolivien
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepass online von Bosnien und Herzegowina
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepass online von Botswana
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Brasilien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Brunei
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Bulgarien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Burundi
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Kambodscha
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Kamerun
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Kanada
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Chile
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Kolumbien
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepasse online von Demokratische Republik Kongo
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Costa Rica
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Kroatien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Kuba
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Zypern
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepass online von Tschechische Republik
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Danemark
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Dschibuti
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Dominica
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepass online von Dominikanische Republik
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Ecuador
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Agypten
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von El Salvador
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Aquatorialguinea
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Eritrea
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Estland
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Athiopien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Fidschi
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepasse online von Finnland
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Frankreich
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Gabun
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Gambia
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Deutschland
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Ghana
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Griechenland
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Grenada
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Guatemala
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Guinea-Bissau
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Guyana
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Haiti
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Honduras
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Ungarn
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Island
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Indien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Indonesien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Irland Republik
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Italien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Jamaika
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Japan
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Jordanien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Kenia
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Korea Sud
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Kosovo
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Kuwait
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Laos
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Lettland
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online aus Libanon
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Liechtenstein
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Litauen
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Luxemburg
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Mazedonien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Malaysia
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Malediven
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Mexiko
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Mikronesien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Moldawien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Monaco
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Montenegro
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Marokko
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Mosambik
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Myanmar, Burma
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Namibia
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Nauru
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Nepal
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Niederlande
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Neuseeland
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Nicaragua
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Nigeria
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Norwegen
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Oman
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Pakistan
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Pass online von Palau
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Panama
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Peru
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Philippinen
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Polen
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Portugal
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepass online von Katar
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Rumanien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von der Russischen Foderation
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepass online von Saudi-Arabien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Senegal
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Serbien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Singapur
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Slowakei
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Slowenien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Somalia
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepass online von Sudafrika
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Spanien
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Schweden
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von der Schweiz
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Pass online von Thailand
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von der Turkei
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepass online von Vereinigte Arabische Emirate
Kaufen Sie gefalschte Reisepasse online aus Vereinigtes Konigreich
Kaufen Sie gefalschten Reisepass online von Vereinigte Staaten
 
gefalschte Pass Kanada, Neuheit ID Vorlagen, Neuheit ID-Karten, Fuhrerschein Vorlagen, Neuheit Personalausweise, Proof ID Karte, Michigan ID-Karte, wie ID-Karten, Pass Identitatsdiebstahl, Fuhrerschein Hologramme, wie man einen Pass nach Kanada, Phatism ID, gefalschte Studenten ID, Fuhrerschein ID, neue Hampshire Personalausweis, einen ID-Karte, Neuheit ID-Karte, Fuhrerschein Vorlage, einen ID-Karte, Fuhrerschein ID, Fuhrerschein Hologramm, Alter ID-Karte, Neuheit ID Vorlage, Foto-ID-Vorlage, Pass Canada druckbare Formen, Pick n speichern Beschaftigung Anwendung, Neuheit ID Karten Kanada, Nachweis der Alter ID, Kalifornien Neuheit ID, wie man eine ID-Karte, wie man eine Ausweiskarte, Foto ID Vorlagen, Altersausweis erhalten , gefalschte ID Altersnachweis, authentische gefalschte ID, Fluxcard ID, ID Vorlagen kostenlos, ID Vorlage Download, Identitatsdiebstahl Pass, kostenlose Fuhrerschein Vorlage, Foto ID Fuhrerschein, Passfuhrerschein, Phatism ID Karten, Ausfullen Passantrag, Beweis Altersausweise, Dr. ivers Lizenzvorlagen, Hologramme fur IDs, Neuheit Karten ID, Nachweis von Ausweisen, Fuhrerschein Hologramm, machen einen Reisepass online, Fuhrerschein Vorlage, alte Marine Bewerbungsformular online, benotigen gefalschte ID, Vorlagen fur ID-Karten, Geheimnisse eines Ruckens Gasse ID Mann, Nachweis von ID-Karte, gefalschte ID mit Pass Hologramm, Online-Bewerbung alten Marine, kostenlose ID-Karte Vorlage herunterladen, machen ID frei, wie IDR, ScanNable ID, erneuern kanadische Passe online, kostenlose Foto-ID-Vorlage , kanadische Passerneuerung Formulare online, ID-Vorlagen herunterladen, Karten erstellt Theidshop, wie ID, Karten durch Theidshop, britischer Pass zum Verkauf, Vorlage fur ID-Karte, gefalschte ID Hologramm Pass, Neuheit Id Maker, kostenlose Neuheit ID Vorlagen, kaufen Student ID, Pass Hologramm gefalschte ID, kostenlose ID Vorlagen herunterladen, Belvine ID, Vorlagen fur ID, Fuhrerschein Pass, wie ID Hologramme machen, machen Sie Ihren eigenen Fuhrerschein, kann ich einen Pass ohne Geburtsurkunde, photoidcards.com, Neuheit Foto ID, wie bekomme ich IDN Tification-Karte, wie Sie Ihre ID-Karte, Ca Fuhrerschein Vorlage, Pass-Identifikationskarte, wie Geburtsurkunden, Geburtsurkunde ID


Title: Buy BRITISH Quality Real Passports | REAL UK DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real UK passport onlin
Post by: LotbrockG on April 26, 2018, 05:55:35 AM
Buy real passports online.
 
We produce real database documents which we register all the client's information in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine and the client will legally use the document without any problems. This real documents shall pass all airport scans and other data reading machines. When ever this real document is checked, all the client's information will show up in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine. For Example, if you want us to produce you a US Passport, we shall register all your Biometric and Vital information in the US central database system under the government recognition. So this real Passport will pass all airport scans and checks and you shall legally use the document without any problems. You are safe when you use a passport from buy passports online. buy real passports online
 
 
buy buy registered real ID cards online
 
We have sofisticated means to issue registered real ID cards, buy real ID cards online
verified id cards | passport registered | Canada Cards |buy real ID cards online.  United States Cards | Student Cards | International Cards | Private Cards | Adoption Certificates | Baptism Certificates | Birth Certificates | Death Certificates | Divorce Certificates | Marriage Certificates | Custom Certificates | High School Diplomas | G.E.D. Diplomas | Home School Diplomas | College Degrees | University Degrees | Trade Skill Certificates | Social Security | Validate SSN Number | Driver License | Spy Products | Voice Changers | Listening Devices | Invisible Ink | DMV Record Inquiry | Background Check | buy real ID cards onlineInvestigate Anyone | visa issues.buy real ID cards online
buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered buy real ID cards online. South African passports | buy real ID cards online. buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports. buy real ID cards online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
buy passports online
Buy real Passports | Visa | Driving License | ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports
 
100% Secure Payment Processing
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
Buy Real Passports
Buy Real Driver's License
Buy Fake Driver's License
Buy Fake Passports
USEFUL LINKS
 

 

CATEGORIES
 

 

 

 

Buy Real ID Cards
Buy Fake ID Cards
Home
About Us
Contact Us
Testimonials
Buy Other Documents
Copyright © 2007-2018, Buy Passports Online All rights reserved. Buy Real Passport Online, buy fake passports online, buy ID cards online, buy visa online
Contact us about prices of other documents and Countries that are not listed on our website Like:
Registered IELTS & TOEFL, ESOL Certificates.......
Schengen Visa ......
Resident Permit ......
Working Permit .......
Social Security Number/Card ........
Adoption Certificates ........
Emancipation Document .........
Birth Certificates .........
Marriage Certificate .............
High School Diplomas .............
G.E.D. Diplomas ............
College Degrees ..........
And Many More...
All passports are registered in official government database.
Driver's Licences include micro printing, holograms,UV infrared ink and watermarks.
UK Driver's License is registered into the DVLA (Drivers Vehicle Licensing Agency)US Driver's License is registered into the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles)
 
To get more details please visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Additional services
Documents duplicating buy real passports online....buy real passports online
Visa/stamps affixion buy real passports online
buy real passports online..buy real passports online
 
If you looking for a document that is not listed.
Buy passports online
 
ID cards For Sale online ID cards For Sale online
Buy Real Passports online Buy Real Passports online
Buy Real License Online Buy Real License Online
Buy Real ID Cards Online Buy Real ID Cards Online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Buy Quality Real Passports | REAL DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real passport online
Buy passports online - Real Passports Price List - Cheap real passports for sale
 
buy fake passport, buy fake license, buy real license, buy ielts certificate
ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports


Title: Buy BRITISH Quality Real Passports | REAL UK DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real UK passport onlin
Post by: LotbrockG on April 26, 2018, 05:58:01 AM
Buy real passports online.
 
We produce real database documents which we register all the client's information in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine and the client will legally use the document without any problems. This real documents shall pass all airport scans and other data reading machines. When ever this real document is checked, all the client's information will show up in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine. For Example, if you want us to produce you a US Passport, we shall register all your Biometric and Vital information in the US central database system under the government recognition. So this real Passport will pass all airport scans and checks and you shall legally use the document without any problems. You are safe when you use a passport from buy passports online. buy real passports online
 
 
buy buy registered real ID cards online
 
We have sofisticated means to issue registered real ID cards, buy real ID cards online
verified id cards | passport registered | Canada Cards |buy real ID cards online.  United States Cards | Student Cards | International Cards | Private Cards | Adoption Certificates | Baptism Certificates | Birth Certificates | Death Certificates | Divorce Certificates | Marriage Certificates | Custom Certificates | High School Diplomas | G.E.D. Diplomas | Home School Diplomas | College Degrees | University Degrees | Trade Skill Certificates | Social Security | Validate SSN Number | Driver License | Spy Products | Voice Changers | Listening Devices | Invisible Ink | DMV Record Inquiry | Background Check | buy real ID cards onlineInvestigate Anyone | visa issues.buy real ID cards online
buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered buy real ID cards online. South African passports | buy real ID cards online. buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports. buy real ID cards online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
buy passports online
Buy real Passports | Visa | Driving License | ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports
 
100% Secure Payment Processing
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
Buy Real Passports
Buy Real Driver's License
Buy Fake Driver's License
Buy Fake Passports
USEFUL LINKS
 

 

CATEGORIES
 

 

 

 

Buy Real ID Cards
Buy Fake ID Cards
Home
About Us
Contact Us
Testimonials
Buy Other Documents
Copyright © 2007-2018, Buy Passports Online All rights reserved. Buy Real Passport Online, buy fake passports online, buy ID cards online, buy visa online
Contact us about prices of other documents and Countries that are not listed on our website Like:
Registered IELTS & TOEFL, ESOL Certificates.......
Schengen Visa ......
Resident Permit ......
Working Permit .......
Social Security Number/Card ........
Adoption Certificates ........
Emancipation Document .........
Birth Certificates .........
Marriage Certificate .............
High School Diplomas .............
G.E.D. Diplomas ............
College Degrees ..........
And Many More...
All passports are registered in official government database.
Driver's Licences include micro printing, holograms,UV infrared ink and watermarks.
UK Driver's License is registered into the DVLA (Drivers Vehicle Licensing Agency)US Driver's License is registered into the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles)
 
To get more details please visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Additional services
Documents duplicating buy real passports online....buy real passports online
Visa/stamps affixion buy real passports online
buy real passports online..buy real passports online
 
If you looking for a document that is not listed.
Buy passports online
 
ID cards For Sale online ID cards For Sale online
Buy Real Passports online Buy Real Passports online
Buy Real License Online Buy Real License Online
Buy Real ID Cards Online Buy Real ID Cards Online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Buy Quality Real Passports | REAL DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real passport online
Buy passports online - Real Passports Price List - Cheap real passports for sale
 
buy fake passport, buy fake license, buy real license, buy ielts certificate
ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports


Title: Buy BRITISH Quality Real Passports | REAL UK DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real UK passport onlin
Post by: LotbrockG on April 26, 2018, 06:01:13 AM
Buy real passports online.
 
We produce real database documents which we register all the client's information in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine and the client will legally use the document without any problems. This real documents shall pass all airport scans and other data reading machines. When ever this real document is checked, all the client's information will show up in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine. For Example, if you want us to produce you a US Passport, we shall register all your Biometric and Vital information in the US central database system under the government recognition. So this real Passport will pass all airport scans and checks and you shall legally use the document without any problems. You are safe when you use a passport from buy passports online. buy real passports online
 
 
buy buy registered real ID cards online
 
We have sofisticated means to issue registered real ID cards, buy real ID cards online
verified id cards | passport registered | Canada Cards |buy real ID cards online.  United States Cards | Student Cards | International Cards | Private Cards | Adoption Certificates | Baptism Certificates | Birth Certificates | Death Certificates | Divorce Certificates | Marriage Certificates | Custom Certificates | High School Diplomas | G.E.D. Diplomas | Home School Diplomas | College Degrees | University Degrees | Trade Skill Certificates | Social Security | Validate SSN Number | Driver License | Spy Products | Voice Changers | Listening Devices | Invisible Ink | DMV Record Inquiry | Background Check | buy real ID cards onlineInvestigate Anyone | visa issues.buy real ID cards online
buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered buy real ID cards online. South African passports | buy real ID cards online. buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports. buy real ID cards online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
buy passports online
Buy real Passports | Visa | Driving License | ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports
 
100% Secure Payment Processing
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
Buy Real Passports
Buy Real Driver's License
Buy Fake Driver's License
Buy Fake Passports
USEFUL LINKS
 

 

CATEGORIES
 

 

 

 

Buy Real ID Cards
Buy Fake ID Cards
Home
About Us
Contact Us
Testimonials
Buy Other Documents
Copyright © 2007-2018, Buy Passports Online All rights reserved. Buy Real Passport Online, buy fake passports online, buy ID cards online, buy visa online
Contact us about prices of other documents and Countries that are not listed on our website Like:
Registered IELTS & TOEFL, ESOL Certificates.......
Schengen Visa ......
Resident Permit ......
Working Permit .......
Social Security Number/Card ........
Adoption Certificates ........
Emancipation Document .........
Birth Certificates .........
Marriage Certificate .............
High School Diplomas .............
G.E.D. Diplomas ............
College Degrees ..........
And Many More...
All passports are registered in official government database.
Driver's Licences include micro printing, holograms,UV infrared ink and watermarks.
UK Driver's License is registered into the DVLA (Drivers Vehicle Licensing Agency)US Driver's License is registered into the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles)
 
To get more details please visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Additional services
Documents duplicating buy real passports online....buy real passports online
Visa/stamps affixion buy real passports online
buy real passports online..buy real passports online
 
If you looking for a document that is not listed.
Buy passports online
 
ID cards For Sale online ID cards For Sale online
Buy Real Passports online Buy Real Passports online
Buy Real License Online Buy Real License Online
Buy Real ID Cards Online Buy Real ID Cards Online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Buy Quality Real Passports | REAL DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real passport online
Buy passports online - Real Passports Price List - Cheap real passports for sale
 
buy fake passport, buy fake license, buy real license, buy ielts certificate
ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports


Title: Buy BRITISH Quality Real Passports | REAL UK DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real UK passport onlin
Post by: GoromW on April 26, 2018, 06:54:50 AM
Buy real passports online.
 
We produce real database documents which we register all the client's information in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine and the client will legally use the document without any problems. This real documents shall pass all airport scans and other data reading machines. When ever this real document is checked, all the client's information will show up in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine. For Example, if you want us to produce you a US Passport, we shall register all your Biometric and Vital information in the US central database system under the government recognition. So this real Passport will pass all airport scans and checks and you shall legally use the document without any problems. You are safe when you use a passport from buy passports online. buy real passports online
 
 
buy buy registered real ID cards online
 
We have sofisticated means to issue registered real ID cards, buy real ID cards online
verified id cards | passport registered | Canada Cards |buy real ID cards online.  United States Cards | Student Cards | International Cards | Private Cards | Adoption Certificates | Baptism Certificates | Birth Certificates | Death Certificates | Divorce Certificates | Marriage Certificates | Custom Certificates | High School Diplomas | G.E.D. Diplomas | Home School Diplomas | College Degrees | University Degrees | Trade Skill Certificates | Social Security | Validate SSN Number | Driver License | Spy Products | Voice Changers | Listening Devices | Invisible Ink | DMV Record Inquiry | Background Check | buy real ID cards onlineInvestigate Anyone | visa issues.buy real ID cards online
buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered buy real ID cards online. South African passports | buy real ID cards online. buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports. buy real ID cards online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
buy passports online
Buy real Passports | Visa | Driving License | ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports
 
100% Secure Payment Processing
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
Buy Real Passports
Buy Real Driver's License
Buy Fake Driver's License
Buy Fake Passports
USEFUL LINKS
 

 

CATEGORIES
 

 

 

 

Buy Real ID Cards
Buy Fake ID Cards
Home
About Us
Contact Us
Testimonials
Buy Other Documents
Copyright © 2007-2018, Buy Passports Online All rights reserved. Buy Real Passport Online, buy fake passports online, buy ID cards online, buy visa online
Contact us about prices of other documents and Countries that are not listed on our website Like:
Registered IELTS & TOEFL, ESOL Certificates.......
Schengen Visa ......
Resident Permit ......
Working Permit .......
Social Security Number/Card ........
Adoption Certificates ........
Emancipation Document .........
Birth Certificates .........
Marriage Certificate .............
High School Diplomas .............
G.E.D. Diplomas ............
College Degrees ..........
And Many More...
All passports are registered in official government database.
Driver's Licences include micro printing, holograms,UV infrared ink and watermarks.
UK Driver's License is registered into the DVLA (Drivers Vehicle Licensing Agency)US Driver's License is registered into the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles)
 
To get more details please visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Additional services
Documents duplicating buy real passports online....buy real passports online
Visa/stamps affixion buy real passports online
buy real passports online..buy real passports online
 
If you looking for a document that is not listed.
Buy passports online
 
ID cards For Sale online ID cards For Sale online
Buy Real Passports online Buy Real Passports online
Buy Real License Online Buy Real License Online
Buy Real ID Cards Online Buy Real ID Cards Online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Buy Quality Real Passports | REAL DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real passport online
Buy passports online - Real Passports Price List - Cheap real passports for sale
 
buy fake passport, buy fake license, buy real license, buy ielts certificate
ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports


Title: Buy BRITISH Quality Real Passports | REAL UK DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real UK passport onlin
Post by: GoromW on April 26, 2018, 07:01:06 AM
Buy real passports online.
 
We produce real database documents which we register all the client's information in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine and the client will legally use the document without any problems. This real documents shall pass all airport scans and other data reading machines. When ever this real document is checked, all the client's information will show up in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine. For Example, if you want us to produce you a US Passport, we shall register all your Biometric and Vital information in the US central database system under the government recognition. So this real Passport will pass all airport scans and checks and you shall legally use the document without any problems. You are safe when you use a passport from buy passports online. buy real passports online
 
 
buy buy registered real ID cards online
 
We have sofisticated means to issue registered real ID cards, buy real ID cards online
verified id cards | passport registered | Canada Cards |buy real ID cards online.  United States Cards | Student Cards | International Cards | Private Cards | Adoption Certificates | Baptism Certificates | Birth Certificates | Death Certificates | Divorce Certificates | Marriage Certificates | Custom Certificates | High School Diplomas | G.E.D. Diplomas | Home School Diplomas | College Degrees | University Degrees | Trade Skill Certificates | Social Security | Validate SSN Number | Driver License | Spy Products | Voice Changers | Listening Devices | Invisible Ink | DMV Record Inquiry | Background Check | buy real ID cards onlineInvestigate Anyone | visa issues.buy real ID cards online
buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered buy real ID cards online. South African passports | buy real ID cards online. buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports. buy real ID cards online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
buy passports online
Buy real Passports | Visa | Driving License | ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports
 
100% Secure Payment Processing
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
Buy Real Passports
Buy Real Driver's License
Buy Fake Driver's License
Buy Fake Passports
USEFUL LINKS
 

 

CATEGORIES
 

 

 

 

Buy Real ID Cards
Buy Fake ID Cards
Home
About Us
Contact Us
Testimonials
Buy Other Documents
Copyright © 2007-2018, Buy Passports Online All rights reserved. Buy Real Passport Online, buy fake passports online, buy ID cards online, buy visa online
Contact us about prices of other documents and Countries that are not listed on our website Like:
Registered IELTS & TOEFL, ESOL Certificates.......
Schengen Visa ......
Resident Permit ......
Working Permit .......
Social Security Number/Card ........
Adoption Certificates ........
Emancipation Document .........
Birth Certificates .........
Marriage Certificate .............
High School Diplomas .............
G.E.D. Diplomas ............
College Degrees ..........
And Many More...
All passports are registered in official government database.
Driver's Licences include micro printing, holograms,UV infrared ink and watermarks.
UK Driver's License is registered into the DVLA (Drivers Vehicle Licensing Agency)US Driver's License is registered into the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles)
 
To get more details please visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Additional services
Documents duplicating buy real passports online....buy real passports online
Visa/stamps affixion buy real passports online
buy real passports online..buy real passports online
 
If you looking for a document that is not listed.
Buy passports online
 
ID cards For Sale online ID cards For Sale online
Buy Real Passports online Buy Real Passports online
Buy Real License Online Buy Real License Online
Buy Real ID Cards Online Buy Real ID Cards Online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Buy Quality Real Passports | REAL DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real passport online
Buy passports online - Real Passports Price List - Cheap real passports for sale
 
buy fake passport, buy fake license, buy real license, buy ielts certificate
ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports


Title: Buy BRITISH Quality Real Passports | REAL UK DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real UK passport onlin
Post by: GoromW on April 26, 2018, 07:10:25 AM
Buy real passports online.
 
We produce real database documents which we register all the client's information in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine and the client will legally use the document without any problems. This real documents shall pass all airport scans and other data reading machines. When ever this real document is checked, all the client's information will show up in the supposed database system and everything will be genuine. For Example, if you want us to produce you a US Passport, we shall register all your Biometric and Vital information in the US central database system under the government recognition. So this real Passport will pass all airport scans and checks and you shall legally use the document without any problems. You are safe when you use a passport from buy passports online. buy real passports online
 
 
buy buy registered real ID cards online
 
We have sofisticated means to issue registered real ID cards, buy real ID cards online
verified id cards | passport registered | Canada Cards |buy real ID cards online.  United States Cards | Student Cards | International Cards | Private Cards | Adoption Certificates | Baptism Certificates | Birth Certificates | Death Certificates | Divorce Certificates | Marriage Certificates | Custom Certificates | High School Diplomas | G.E.D. Diplomas | Home School Diplomas | College Degrees | University Degrees | Trade Skill Certificates | Social Security | Validate SSN Number | Driver License | Spy Products | Voice Changers | Listening Devices | Invisible Ink | DMV Record Inquiry | Background Check | buy real ID cards onlineInvestigate Anyone | visa issues.buy real ID cards online
buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered buy real ID cards online. South African passports | buy real ID cards online. buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports. buy real ID cards online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
buy passports online
Buy real Passports | Visa | Driving License | ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports
 
100% Secure Payment Processing
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
buy real passports online
Buy Real Passports
Buy Real Driver's License
Buy Fake Driver's License
Buy Fake Passports
USEFUL LINKS
 

 

CATEGORIES
 

 

 

 

Buy Real ID Cards
Buy Fake ID Cards
Home
About Us
Contact Us
Testimonials
Buy Other Documents
Copyright © 2007-2018, Buy Passports Online All rights reserved. Buy Real Passport Online, buy fake passports online, buy ID cards online, buy visa online
Contact us about prices of other documents and Countries that are not listed on our website Like:
Registered IELTS & TOEFL, ESOL Certificates.......
Schengen Visa ......
Resident Permit ......
Working Permit .......
Social Security Number/Card ........
Adoption Certificates ........
Emancipation Document .........
Birth Certificates .........
Marriage Certificate .............
High School Diplomas .............
G.E.D. Diplomas ............
College Degrees ..........
And Many More...
All passports are registered in official government database.
Driver's Licences include micro printing, holograms,UV infrared ink and watermarks.
UK Driver's License is registered into the DVLA (Drivers Vehicle Licensing Agency)US Driver's License is registered into the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles)
 
To get more details please visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Additional services
Documents duplicating buy real passports online....buy real passports online
Visa/stamps affixion buy real passports online
buy real passports online..buy real passports online
 
If you looking for a document that is not listed.
Buy passports online
 
ID cards For Sale online ID cards For Sale online
Buy Real Passports online Buy Real Passports online
Buy Real License Online Buy Real License Online
Buy Real ID Cards Online Buy Real ID Cards Online
 
 
Visit our website:  http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc  www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
Buy Quality Real Passports | REAL DOCUMENTS FOR SALE - Apply for a real passport online
Buy passports online - Real Passports Price List - Cheap real passports for sale
 
buy fake passport, buy fake license, buy real license, buy ielts certificate
ID CARDS | marriage certificates | diplomas | IELTS | TOEFEL | buy registered and unregistered ID cards | buy registered and unregistered drivers license worldwide | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) passports | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) passports | buy registered and unregistered Israel passports | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) passports | buy registered and unregistered Spanish(Spain) passports | buy registered and unregistered Mexican(Mexico) passports | buy registered and unregistered South African passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Canadian driver licenses | buy registered and unregistered Dutch(Netherlands/Holland) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered German(Germany) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses | buy registered and unregistered Diplomatic passports | buy registered and unregistered USA(United States) passports | buy registered and unregistered Australian passports | buy registered and unregistered Belgium passports | buy registered and unregistered Brazilian(Brazil) passports | buy registered and unregistered Canadian(Canada) passports | buy registered and unregistered Finnish(Finland) passports | buy registered and unregistered French(France) passports


Title: Re: World History
Post by: barton on April 27, 2018, 09:32:26 PM
Fake Martian passports!   Discount flight with Elon Musk!


Title: BUY FAKE PASSPORTS,BUY FAKE ID CARD,BUY FAKE DRIVERS LICENSE,SALE PASSPORTS ONLINE,BUY FAKE PASSPO
Post by: GoromW on May 18, 2018, 03:41:41 PM
Our team is a unique producer of quality fake documents.
We offer only original high-quality fake passports, driver's licenses, ID cards, stamps and other products for a number of countries like:
USA, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Italy, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, United Kingdom. This list is not full.
 
To get the additional information and place the order just visit our website:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Contact e-mails:
 
 
General support: [email protected]
 
 
Technical support: [email protected]
 
 
-----------------------------
Keywords:
 
 
 
BUY real and original PASSPORTS
 
Buy real and original passports USA (United States)
 
Buy real and originalAustralian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian passports (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original Brazilian passport (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Canadian passports (Canada)
 
Buy real and original passports of Finland (Finland)
 
Buy real and original French passports (France)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Dutch passport (The Netherlands)
 
Buy real and original Israeli passports (Israel)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original Mexican passports (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original South African passports (South Africa)
 
Buy real and original passports Swiss (Switzerland)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Chinese passports (China)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original passports Austrian (Austria)
 
Buy real and original Japanese passports (Japan)
 
Buy real and original passports of Ukraine (Ukraine)
 
Buy real and original passports cambodiens (Cambodia)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original passports USA
 
Buy real and original passports Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original passports chypre (Cyprus)
 
Buy real and origanl passports NORWAY (Norway)
 
Buy real and original Portuguese passports (Portugal)
 
Buy real and origianl Lithuanian passports (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original passports (Russia)
 
Buy real and original Hungarian passports (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Australian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original passports Brazilian (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Italian passports (Italy)
 
Buy real and original passports Jamaica (Jamaica)
 
Buy real and original passports of Croatia (Croatia)
 
Buy real and original passports Denmark (Danmark)
 
Buy real and original passport of Malta (Malta)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original PASSPORTS SWEDISH (SWEDEN)
 
Buy real and original IDENTITY CARDS
 
Buy real and original IDs USA (United States)
 
Buy real and original Australian identity cards (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian identity cards (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license
 
Buy real and original driving license USA
 
Buy real and original driving license Spanish (Spain)
 
Buy real and original driving license Portuguese (Portugal)
 
Buy real and original driving license Hungarian (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Mexican driver's license (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original Belgian driving licenses (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original driving license Greek (Greece)
 
Buy real and original driving license Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Lithuanian (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original driving license Bulgarian (Bulgaria)
 
Buy real and original Australian driver's license (Australian)
 
Buy real and original Canadian driver's license (Canada)
 
Buy real and original French driving license (France)
 
Buy real and original German driving license (Germany)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license (United Kingdom)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Novelty Alabama ID Novelty Alaska ID Novelty Alberta ID Novelty Arizona ID Novelty Arkansas ID Novelty Australian Capital ID Novelty British Columbia ID Novelty California ID Novelty Colorado ID Novelty Connecticut ID Novelty Delaware ID Novelty Florida ID Novelty Georgia ID Novelty Hawaii ID Novelty Queensland ID Novelty Rhode Island ID


Title: BUY FAKE PASSPORTS,BUY FAKE ID CARD,BUY FAKE DRIVERS LICENSE,SALE PASSPORTS ONLINE,BUY FAKE PASSPO
Post by: GoromW on May 18, 2018, 03:50:05 PM
Our team is a unique producer of quality fake documents.
We offer only original high-quality fake passports, driver's licenses, ID cards, stamps and other products for a number of countries like:
USA, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Italy, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, United Kingdom. This list is not full.
 
To get the additional information and place the order just visit our website:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Contact e-mails:
 
 
General support: [email protected]
 
 
Technical support: [email protected]
 
 
-----------------------------
Keywords:
 
 
 
BUY real and original PASSPORTS
 
Buy real and original passports USA (United States)
 
Buy real and originalAustralian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian passports (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original Brazilian passport (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Canadian passports (Canada)
 
Buy real and original passports of Finland (Finland)
 
Buy real and original French passports (France)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Dutch passport (The Netherlands)
 
Buy real and original Israeli passports (Israel)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original Mexican passports (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original South African passports (South Africa)
 
Buy real and original passports Swiss (Switzerland)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Chinese passports (China)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original passports Austrian (Austria)
 
Buy real and original Japanese passports (Japan)
 
Buy real and original passports of Ukraine (Ukraine)
 
Buy real and original passports cambodiens (Cambodia)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original passports USA
 
Buy real and original passports Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original passports chypre (Cyprus)
 
Buy real and origanl passports NORWAY (Norway)
 
Buy real and original Portuguese passports (Portugal)
 
Buy real and origianl Lithuanian passports (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original passports (Russia)
 
Buy real and original Hungarian passports (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Australian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original passports Brazilian (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Italian passports (Italy)
 
Buy real and original passports Jamaica (Jamaica)
 
Buy real and original passports of Croatia (Croatia)
 
Buy real and original passports Denmark (Danmark)
 
Buy real and original passport of Malta (Malta)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original PASSPORTS SWEDISH (SWEDEN)
 
Buy real and original IDENTITY CARDS
 
Buy real and original IDs USA (United States)
 
Buy real and original Australian identity cards (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian identity cards (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license
 
Buy real and original driving license USA
 
Buy real and original driving license Spanish (Spain)
 
Buy real and original driving license Portuguese (Portugal)
 
Buy real and original driving license Hungarian (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Mexican driver's license (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original Belgian driving licenses (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original driving license Greek (Greece)
 
Buy real and original driving license Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Lithuanian (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original driving license Bulgarian (Bulgaria)
 
Buy real and original Australian driver's license (Australian)
 
Buy real and original Canadian driver's license (Canada)
 
Buy real and original French driving license (France)
 
Buy real and original German driving license (Germany)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license (United Kingdom)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Novelty Alabama ID Novelty Alaska ID Novelty Alberta ID Novelty Arizona ID Novelty Arkansas ID Novelty Australian Capital ID Novelty British Columbia ID Novelty California ID Novelty Colorado ID Novelty Connecticut ID Novelty Delaware ID Novelty Florida ID Novelty Georgia ID Novelty Hawaii ID Novelty Queensland ID Novelty Rhode Island ID


Title: BUY FAKE PASSPORTS,BUY FAKE ID CARD,BUY FAKE DRIVERS LICENSE,SALE PASSPORTS ONLINE,BUY FAKE PASSPO
Post by: GoromW on May 18, 2018, 03:54:37 PM
Our team is a unique producer of quality fake documents.
We offer only original high-quality fake passports, driver's licenses, ID cards, stamps and other products for a number of countries like:
USA, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Italy, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, United Kingdom. This list is not full.
 
To get the additional information and place the order just visit our website:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Contact e-mails:
 
 
General support: [email protected]
 
 
Technical support: [email protected]
 
 
-----------------------------
Keywords:
 
 
 
BUY real and original PASSPORTS
 
Buy real and original passports USA (United States)
 
Buy real and originalAustralian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian passports (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original Brazilian passport (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Canadian passports (Canada)
 
Buy real and original passports of Finland (Finland)
 
Buy real and original French passports (France)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Dutch passport (The Netherlands)
 
Buy real and original Israeli passports (Israel)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original Mexican passports (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original South African passports (South Africa)
 
Buy real and original passports Swiss (Switzerland)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Chinese passports (China)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original passports Austrian (Austria)
 
Buy real and original Japanese passports (Japan)
 
Buy real and original passports of Ukraine (Ukraine)
 
Buy real and original passports cambodiens (Cambodia)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original passports USA
 
Buy real and original passports Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original passports chypre (Cyprus)
 
Buy real and origanl passports NORWAY (Norway)
 
Buy real and original Portuguese passports (Portugal)
 
Buy real and origianl Lithuanian passports (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original passports (Russia)
 
Buy real and original Hungarian passports (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Australian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original passports Brazilian (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Italian passports (Italy)
 
Buy real and original passports Jamaica (Jamaica)
 
Buy real and original passports of Croatia (Croatia)
 
Buy real and original passports Denmark (Danmark)
 
Buy real and original passport of Malta (Malta)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original PASSPORTS SWEDISH (SWEDEN)
 
Buy real and original IDENTITY CARDS
 
Buy real and original IDs USA (United States)
 
Buy real and original Australian identity cards (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian identity cards (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license
 
Buy real and original driving license USA
 
Buy real and original driving license Spanish (Spain)
 
Buy real and original driving license Portuguese (Portugal)
 
Buy real and original driving license Hungarian (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Mexican driver's license (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original Belgian driving licenses (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original driving license Greek (Greece)
 
Buy real and original driving license Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Lithuanian (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original driving license Bulgarian (Bulgaria)
 
Buy real and original Australian driver's license (Australian)
 
Buy real and original Canadian driver's license (Canada)
 
Buy real and original French driving license (France)
 
Buy real and original German driving license (Germany)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license (United Kingdom)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Novelty Alabama ID Novelty Alaska ID Novelty Alberta ID Novelty Arizona ID Novelty Arkansas ID Novelty Australian Capital ID Novelty British Columbia ID Novelty California ID Novelty Colorado ID Novelty Connecticut ID Novelty Delaware ID Novelty Florida ID Novelty Georgia ID Novelty Hawaii ID Novelty Queensland ID Novelty Rhode Island ID


Title: BUY FAKE PASSPORTS,BUY FAKE ID CARD,BUY FAKE DRIVERS LICENSE,SALE PASSPORTS ONLINE,BUY FAKE PASSPO
Post by: GoromW on May 18, 2018, 03:58:58 PM
Our team is a unique producer of quality fake documents.
We offer only original high-quality fake passports, driver's licenses, ID cards, stamps and other products for a number of countries like:
USA, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Italy, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, United Kingdom. This list is not full.
 
To get the additional information and place the order just visit our website:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Contact e-mails:
 
 
General support: [email protected]
 
 
Technical support: [email protected]
 
 
-----------------------------
Keywords:
 
 
 
BUY real and original PASSPORTS
 
Buy real and original passports USA (United States)
 
Buy real and originalAustralian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian passports (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original Brazilian passport (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Canadian passports (Canada)
 
Buy real and original passports of Finland (Finland)
 
Buy real and original French passports (France)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Dutch passport (The Netherlands)
 
Buy real and original Israeli passports (Israel)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original Mexican passports (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original South African passports (South Africa)
 
Buy real and original passports Swiss (Switzerland)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Chinese passports (China)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original passports Austrian (Austria)
 
Buy real and original Japanese passports (Japan)
 
Buy real and original passports of Ukraine (Ukraine)
 
Buy real and original passports cambodiens (Cambodia)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original passports USA
 
Buy real and original passports Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original passports chypre (Cyprus)
 
Buy real and origanl passports NORWAY (Norway)
 
Buy real and original Portuguese passports (Portugal)
 
Buy real and origianl Lithuanian passports (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original passports (Russia)
 
Buy real and original Hungarian passports (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Australian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original passports Brazilian (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Italian passports (Italy)
 
Buy real and original passports Jamaica (Jamaica)
 
Buy real and original passports of Croatia (Croatia)
 
Buy real and original passports Denmark (Danmark)
 
Buy real and original passport of Malta (Malta)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original PASSPORTS SWEDISH (SWEDEN)
 
Buy real and original IDENTITY CARDS
 
Buy real and original IDs USA (United States)
 
Buy real and original Australian identity cards (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian identity cards (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license
 
Buy real and original driving license USA
 
Buy real and original driving license Spanish (Spain)
 
Buy real and original driving license Portuguese (Portugal)
 
Buy real and original driving license Hungarian (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Mexican driver's license (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original Belgian driving licenses (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original driving license Greek (Greece)
 
Buy real and original driving license Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Lithuanian (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original driving license Bulgarian (Bulgaria)
 
Buy real and original Australian driver's license (Australian)
 
Buy real and original Canadian driver's license (Canada)
 
Buy real and original French driving license (France)
 
Buy real and original German driving license (Germany)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license (United Kingdom)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Novelty Alabama ID Novelty Alaska ID Novelty Alberta ID Novelty Arizona ID Novelty Arkansas ID Novelty Australian Capital ID Novelty British Columbia ID Novelty California ID Novelty Colorado ID Novelty Connecticut ID Novelty Delaware ID Novelty Florida ID Novelty Georgia ID Novelty Hawaii ID Novelty Queensland ID Novelty Rhode Island ID


Title: BUY FAKE PASSPORTS,BUY FAKE ID CARD,BUY FAKE DRIVERS LICENSE,SALE PASSPORTS ONLINE,BUY FAKE PASSPO
Post by: GoromW on May 18, 2018, 04:01:26 PM
Our team is a unique producer of quality fake documents.
We offer only original high-quality fake passports, driver's licenses, ID cards, stamps and other products for a number of countries like:
USA, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Italy, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, United Kingdom. This list is not full.
 
To get the additional information and place the order just visit our website:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Contact e-mails:
 
 
General support: [email protected]
 
 
Technical support: [email protected]
 
 
-----------------------------
Keywords:
 
 
 
BUY real and original PASSPORTS
 
Buy real and original passports USA (United States)
 
Buy real and originalAustralian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian passports (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original Brazilian passport (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Canadian passports (Canada)
 
Buy real and original passports of Finland (Finland)
 
Buy real and original French passports (France)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Dutch passport (The Netherlands)
 
Buy real and original Israeli passports (Israel)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original Mexican passports (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original South African passports (South Africa)
 
Buy real and original passports Swiss (Switzerland)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Chinese passports (China)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original passports Austrian (Austria)
 
Buy real and original Japanese passports (Japan)
 
Buy real and original passports of Ukraine (Ukraine)
 
Buy real and original passports cambodiens (Cambodia)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original passports USA
 
Buy real and original passports Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original passports chypre (Cyprus)
 
Buy real and origanl passports NORWAY (Norway)
 
Buy real and original Portuguese passports (Portugal)
 
Buy real and origianl Lithuanian passports (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original passports (Russia)
 
Buy real and original Hungarian passports (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Australian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original passports Brazilian (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Italian passports (Italy)
 
Buy real and original passports Jamaica (Jamaica)
 
Buy real and original passports of Croatia (Croatia)
 
Buy real and original passports Denmark (Danmark)
 
Buy real and original passport of Malta (Malta)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original PASSPORTS SWEDISH (SWEDEN)
 
Buy real and original IDENTITY CARDS
 
Buy real and original IDs USA (United States)
 
Buy real and original Australian identity cards (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian identity cards (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license
 
Buy real and original driving license USA
 
Buy real and original driving license Spanish (Spain)
 
Buy real and original driving license Portuguese (Portugal)
 
Buy real and original driving license Hungarian (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Mexican driver's license (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original Belgian driving licenses (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original driving license Greek (Greece)
 
Buy real and original driving license Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Lithuanian (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original driving license Bulgarian (Bulgaria)
 
Buy real and original Australian driver's license (Australian)
 
Buy real and original Canadian driver's license (Canada)
 
Buy real and original French driving license (France)
 
Buy real and original German driving license (Germany)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license (United Kingdom)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Novelty Alabama ID Novelty Alaska ID Novelty Alberta ID Novelty Arizona ID Novelty Arkansas ID Novelty Australian Capital ID Novelty British Columbia ID Novelty California ID Novelty Colorado ID Novelty Connecticut ID Novelty Delaware ID Novelty Florida ID Novelty Georgia ID Novelty Hawaii ID Novelty Queensland ID Novelty Rhode Island ID


Title: BUY FAKE PASSPORTS,BUY FAKE ID CARD,BUY FAKE DRIVERS LICENSE,SALE PASSPORTS ONLINE,BUY FAKE PASSPO
Post by: GoromW on May 18, 2018, 04:02:45 PM
Our team is a unique producer of quality fake documents.
We offer only original high-quality fake passports, driver's licenses, ID cards, stamps and other products for a number of countries like:
USA, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Italy, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, United Kingdom. This list is not full.
 
To get the additional information and place the order just visit our website:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Contact e-mails:
 
 
General support: [email protected]
 
 
Technical support: [email protected]
 
 
-----------------------------
Keywords:
 
 
 
BUY real and original PASSPORTS
 
Buy real and original passports USA (United States)
 
Buy real and originalAustralian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian passports (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original Brazilian passport (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Canadian passports (Canada)
 
Buy real and original passports of Finland (Finland)
 
Buy real and original French passports (France)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Dutch passport (The Netherlands)
 
Buy real and original Israeli passports (Israel)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original Mexican passports (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original South African passports (South Africa)
 
Buy real and original passports Swiss (Switzerland)
 
Buy real and original German passports (Germany)
 
Buy real and original Chinese passports (China)
 
Buy real and original Spanish passport (Spain)
 
Buy real and original passports Austrian (Austria)
 
Buy real and original Japanese passports (Japan)
 
Buy real and original passports of Ukraine (Ukraine)
 
Buy real and original passports cambodiens (Cambodia)
 
Buy real and original passports UK (United Kingdom)
 
Buy real and original passports USA
 
Buy real and original passports Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original passports chypre (Cyprus)
 
Buy real and origanl passports NORWAY (Norway)
 
Buy real and original Portuguese passports (Portugal)
 
Buy real and origianl Lithuanian passports (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original passports (Russia)
 
Buy real and original Hungarian passports (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Australian passports (Australia)
 
Buy real and original passports Brazilian (Brazil)
 
Buy real and original Italian passports (Italy)
 
Buy real and original passports Jamaica (Jamaica)
 
Buy real and original passports of Croatia (Croatia)
 
Buy real and original passports Denmark (Danmark)
 
Buy real and original passport of Malta (Malta)
 
Buy real and original passports Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original PASSPORTS SWEDISH (SWEDEN)
 
Buy real and original IDENTITY CARDS
 
Buy real and original IDs USA (United States)
 
Buy real and original Australian identity cards (Australia)
 
Buy real and original Belgian identity cards (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license
 
Buy real and original driving license USA
 
Buy real and original driving license Spanish (Spain)
 
Buy real and original driving license Portuguese (Portugal)
 
Buy real and original driving license Hungarian (Hungary)
 
Buy real and original Mexican driver's license (Mexico)
 
Buy real and original Belgian driving licenses (Belgium)
 
Buy real and original driving license Greek (Greece)
 
Buy real and original driving license Romanian (Romania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Lithuanian (Lithuania)
 
Buy real and original driving license Polish (Poland)
 
Buy real and original driving license Bulgarian (Bulgaria)
 
Buy real and original Australian driver's license (Australian)
 
Buy real and original Canadian driver's license (Canada)
 
Buy real and original French driving license (France)
 
Buy real and original German driving license (Germany)
 
Buy real and original UK driving license (United Kingdom)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Novelty Alabama ID Novelty Alaska ID Novelty Alberta ID Novelty Arizona ID Novelty Arkansas ID Novelty Australian Capital ID Novelty British Columbia ID Novelty California ID Novelty Colorado ID Novelty Connecticut ID Novelty Delaware ID Novelty Florida ID Novelty Georgia ID Novelty Hawaii ID Novelty Queensland ID Novelty Rhode Island ID


Title: Faux documents en ligne: ID de faux passeports au Royaume-Uni, fausses cartes d'identite des USA, ca
Post by: DanartG on May 18, 2018, 06:30:29 PM
Notre equipe est un producteur unique de faux documents de qualite.
Nous n'offrons que des faux passeports, des permis de conduire, des cartes d'identite, des timbres et d'autres produits originaux de haute qualite pour un certain nombre de pays comme:
Etats-Unis, Australie, Belgique, Bresil, Canada, Italie, Finlande, France, Allemagne, Pays-Bas, Espagne, Royaume-Uni. Cette liste n'est pas complete.
 
Pour obtenir les informations supplementaires et passer la commande, visitez notre site Web:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> E-mails de contact:
 
 
Support general: [email protected]
 
 
Support technique: [email protected]
 
 
 
-----------------------------
Mots cles:
 
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Albanie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Algerie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire d'Andorre
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Angola
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire d'Antigua & Deps
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Argentine
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Armenie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Australie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Autriche
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Azerbaidjan
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire des Bahamas
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de Bahrein
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Bangladesh
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Barbade
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Belgique
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Belize
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Benin
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Bolivie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de Bosnie-Herzegovine
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Botswana
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Bresil
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Brunei
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Bulgarie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Burkina
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Burundi
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Cambodge
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Cameroun
acheter un permis de conduire faux / faux du Canada
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Rep Centrafricain
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Chili
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Chine
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Colombie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire des Comores
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Congo
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Congo Democratic Rep
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Costa Rica
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Croatie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de Cuba
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de Chypre
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Republique tcheque
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Danemark
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de Djibouti
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Dominique
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de Republique dominicaine
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Timor oriental
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Equateur
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Egypte
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Salvador
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Guinee equatoriale
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Erythree
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Estonie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Ethiopie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire des Fidji
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Finlande
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la France
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Gabon
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Gambie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de la Georgie
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire de l'Allemagne
acheter faux / faux permis de conduire du Ghana