Escape from Elba

Arts => Movies => Topic started by: Admin on September 13, 2007, 09:03:14 AM



Title: Movie Club
Post by: Admin on September 13, 2007, 09:03:14 AM
Members should agree to see a specific movie and discuss it here.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 13, 2007, 10:10:59 AM
Thank you liquidsilver.

If I may, I'd like to ask dzimas and whiskeypriest to be our moderators.

Both dzimas and whiskeypriest were fine moderators over in the New York Times.

Both have more experience and people-skills than me in terms of doing a good discussion.

Plus both whiskeypriest and dzimas like the same movies I like...  :)

Movies like Pandora's Box for example. And The Third Man...

I'm looking forward to some interesting in-depth film discussions.

Thanks again, liquidsilver...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: liquidsilver on September 13, 2007, 10:12:34 AM
I'd let Wisk moderate but I'm not so sure he'll be visiting much except perhaps evenings since he has no access through his company's firewall during the day


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 13, 2007, 10:32:06 AM
I'd let Wisk moderate but I'm not so sure he'll be visiting much except perhaps evenings since he has no access through his company's firewall during the day

I understand, liquidsilver.

Plus WP just moved to Chicago and probably hasn't settled in yet.

IMHO we need a moderator during the day don't you think?

Dzimas has contributed a lot of good posts to the Elba Movie forum...as well as the NYTimes Movie Forum.

How about letting dzimas be the moderator if he'd like to? How's that sound?

I'd love to do Eraserhead for a month...

But I'm sure there'd be a revolt of the moviegoers.  :)







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: liquidsilver on September 13, 2007, 10:33:44 AM
Let me think about it a bit.  I've been a little against moderators in the past because of the censorship factor but perhaps it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 13, 2007, 11:03:41 AM
2007 is shaping up into a pretty decent year for current films, so I'd vote for seeing something current and discussing.  Maybe The Lives of Others -- an example suggested because I want to see this, but have other stuff in my queue and need a push in this direction or I'll let it slide.

In fact, that "let it slide" factor, aka cinematic laziness, could be important here.  Great films arise from unappealing topics and often I'm richly rewarded by a film I'm dragged to.

 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: kitinkaboodle on September 13, 2007, 11:27:26 AM
The Lives of others as subject for discussion may not be controversial enough?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 13, 2007, 12:01:58 PM
Love in the Time of Cholera, barton, is coming out in November.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0484740/

We’ve been discussing it over in the Movie Forum. What I like about it is that it combines both a book by Gabriel Garcia Marquez and a film with Javier Bardem who also starred in Before Night Falls (2000). Both possible choices…

The Third Man for me shows how books & films interact perfectly. It’s interested me since reading Graham Greene’s intro to The Third Man. Greene describes how the novel was written as a guide to the film—and the book comes very close to the film in terms of the plot, action and characters.

I'm sure whiskeypriest would like to revisit the lecture given by Holly Martins to the Viennese intellectuals. One of the classic scenes in a classic movie. Along with Harry Lime in the Ferris Wheel...

Of course, not all such collaborations / adaptations are successful. Have you read / seen Greene's The Comedians? We had an interesting book-film discussion about it—as well as Visconti’s The Leopard (1963) over in the Big Apple.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057091/

Yes, 2007 has many interesting movies to discuss…but also there are some classic ones as well.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 13, 2007, 12:15:52 PM
I noted your posting about LitToC and am certainly looking forward to that, though it's not likely to reach the plains by its first release date in November.  A fair percent of Melba regulars don't live in New York or LA, and so have to wait a while for their local university theater or arthouse cinema to screen such films (i.e. indie, foreign, small-studio, niche, etc.).

 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 13, 2007, 04:50:26 PM
I place the name of oilcanboyd in consideration for Secretary/Treasurer. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 13, 2007, 06:16:14 PM
I challenge everyone to watch "The Brave One" this weekend, there's really nothing like big stars in genre trash to make people happy.  When I see "shots fired" in a convenience store and a lot of 40 oz.'s smashed by some .45 rounds, I get all Eastwood/Bronson/Seagal fired up; then when you tell me that it's Jodie Foster, I'm all like, yeah, cool.

So I think "The Brave One" should be the first film that everybody watches on the big screen.

Rental suggestions:  "O.C & Stiggs," "The Rookie," "Maniac Cop II," "Ticker," and...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416243/

Note:  I think a dive into the subgenres in general might be a lot of fun, like first see "Alien" and then see "Deepstar Six" and then see "The Thing," discuss.  20 pts.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 13, 2007, 07:20:08 PM
I'd watch anything by Tarantino.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 13, 2007, 07:38:44 PM
I just want to be made Special Envoy and Guardian of the PRINCIPLE OF THE RULE OF 2's and BEERTI(.)(.)Y MOVIES.

"Were they built for comfort or built for speed?  Did you do the motorboat?  You ol'motor-boatin' son of a bitch, you did the motorboat, didn't you?"


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 13, 2007, 08:24:00 PM
That's so weird that I would link JFC merch just when, wait, put on your tinfoil hat, I think I'm getting another transmission, a big one, [NOOOOOOOO!!!!] takes horse traquilizer [passes out]


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 13, 2007, 09:21:10 PM
http://store.hbo.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2783857&cp=2764176&clickid=mainnav_browse_txt


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 13, 2007, 09:32:11 PM
If you're Gosselaar you've got to be happy about getting your picture on the cast page on the JFC page at the HBO web site, but then you might not like it that everyone else got a few paragraphs of resume/achievements stuff under their pictures and you just got some blank space. 

But as to Movie Club, I like it (and I already know not to talk about it, so don't waste your pixels telling me the rules) and I submit "Jim Metzler Retrospective" for topical consideration. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 13, 2007, 09:47:42 PM
If that's the case I think he made a vampire/western deserving of serious attention, but I can't say definitively whether this is where that discussion should take place or not, not knowing the nature of this enterprise, however noble, not knowing the scope of this venture, presuming majesty and expecting only ordinary patter, etc.

I think looking at the arc of Ben Affleck vs. Damon as far as "while BA was ___, D was ___" might be an informative series on whether younger members might rather be the hare or the toroise, hmmmmm??


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on September 13, 2007, 09:48:09 PM
I can't believe they didn't mention his amazing work in Saved by the Bell, for instance.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 13, 2007, 10:04:27 PM
(http://www.ronlim.com/worldarchive/tarantinoimages/pulp.poster.jpg)

"I don't believe in elitism.
I don't think the audience
is this dumb person lower
than me. I am the audience."
-- Quentin Tarantino


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 13, 2007, 11:29:48 PM
When the grunge era got to be "too much," you always had "Saved By the Bell" to lead you back to some strange approximation of nobody's high school.  In an absurdist theater sort of way, we sat around that fire and had a few beers.  Otherwise, you had the clever dated misonthropic humor of "M.A.S.H." or the clever neediness of "Cheers" or the clever not-really disfunctionality of "Family Ties" or like, maybe switch to "Cops," it was tough sledding in the early afternoon, so I drank beer.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 14, 2007, 12:03:29 AM
The next sink may be the one I puke in, but for now I've got to find out who put us on this little pain capsule...

...oh shut up, Harold, you've lost your credibility now, you've got nothing to shove people around with...

...Quite on the contrary, my dear, I have arrogance at my disposal, an endless supply in fact, and I'll assert it until I'm made a peasant, I don't know specifically why I'm here, can you find the vodka while the others wake up??

...Harold, we're at the bottom of the sea...

...Thank God, I was hoping there was one, again, about the vodka...

...Harold, we need fruit to make alcohol...

...Jeezus, wake up that one, if he's fruity we'll sugar him good and make him liquid...

...He's straight Harold, and a civilian, are you a civilian??

...The problem is that I'm not straight, and I'm not sure, what are we in the service of exactly, or are you just the first to wake up...

...We're in the service of the queen Harold...

...I'm going to need a drink then, I think my flask is unfrozen, a wonder it didn't merge with my, uh, personage, as it were...

...Harold, dear, you could use a change of clothes...

...Quite so, shall I wake up the others and see who wants to switch???


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 14, 2007, 12:27:39 AM
(http://www.ronlim.com/worldarchive/tarantinoimages/pulp.poster.jpg)

"I don't really want to see movies from people
that can't get it up anymore, and I don't really
want to make movies if I can't get it up anymore."
-- Quentin Tarantino


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 14, 2007, 12:52:00 AM
Definition of insanity?

We have a weiner.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 14, 2007, 01:15:50 AM
(http://www.ronlim.com/worldarchive/tarantinoimages/pulp.poster.jpg)

The next sink may be the one I puke in...

...I am pitching to the void...

The problem is that I'm not straight...

We're in the service of the queen Harold...

Definition of insanity?
We have a weiner.

May I make a little suggestion, jbottle?

If you've got to puke, dish gays or void out somewhere...

Then do it over in the Gay Rights forum...

And not in the new Movie Club.

It hasn't been up a day yet...

And you've tried to queer it already.

Couldn't wait could you, little jbottle boy...

Like the proverbial skunk at the picnic...

Homophobes like you are dime-a-dozen...

Just like skanky whores...

The internet is full of losers...

And you're one of them, baby.

You're on Ingore now, have fun...

Playing with yourself...

& Detective_Winslow.  :)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 14, 2007, 01:39:06 AM
All right!!!!

Subgenres rule, baby...

In fact, a dive into subgenres sounds like lots of fun, jbottle.

Like maybe a hip compare / contrast discussion between the two Things...hmmm.

Or how about the two Blobs...? Weekend Teenexploitation Drive In Thrills!!!

Maybe a little Blaxpoitation chill...like the two Shafts?

Of course, for the true hardcore film fanatics...

...there's the Tarantino / Rodriguez Boys and From Dusk till Dawn series, oh man...

Dusk till Dawn 3: The Hangman's Daughter a must-see thrill ride!!! I watch it every weekend, baby!!!

Quentin Tarantino is God in my book...as in Pulp Fiction, dude...

So many great movies...so little time...  :) :) :)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 14, 2007, 02:39:48 AM
(http://www.ronlim.com/worldarchive/tarantinoimages/pulp.poster.jpg)

“I like it when somebody tells
me a story, and I actually really
feel that that's becoming like a
lost art in American cinema.”
—Quentin Tarantino


For some reason, I don’t seem to be interested in subgenres anymore…I wonder why?

I’m sure jbottle, harrie and oilcanboyd23—will soon tell me why…   :)

The new Movie Club began today—I’ve read the posts.

I’m not impressed—in fact I’m disappointed.

Tarantino is right—telling a story has become a lost art in American cinema.

The you-tube generation has lost it—cinematic storytelling.

I’ve read their posts here—they’re not about movies.

I want to talk about The Third Man (1949)…

And other classics like Pandora’s Box (1929)…

As well as Curt Siodmak’s People on Sunday (1930)…

Movies that still tell stories…

Dzimas, Hoffman and me…

I couldn’t ask for a better group of cineastes…

The three of us had a lively NYTimes book discussion.

Said’s Orientalism in the Big Apple days…

That was then—this is now…

Thank you.






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 14, 2007, 04:13:32 AM
I saw People on Sunday a ways back.  It always strikes me that German cinema has quite a different feel than the stuff Hollywood puts out.   Even in the comedies, there is an interesting mingling of futility and optimism.   I don't want to post plot lines, but a few examples are People on Sunday, Schulze Gets the Blues, Good-bye Lenin....the characters in these movies find themselves in situations that seem promising, but in the end they've misanalyzed.   Much of the humor seems a response to political instability.....Lenin doesn't even attempt to disguise this aspect.  The whole film become a spotlight for the confusion and apprehension over the fall of the wall.

Dramas have the same mix....futility...optimism.  Why is Metropolis so different than Modern Times?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 14, 2007, 05:47:41 AM
As I understand it, the point of this new forum is to explore movies in a little more depth, keeping bathroom humor to a miniumum, as cute as some of Mr. Bottle's comments can be sometimes. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 14, 2007, 05:54:13 AM
Dramas have the same mix....futility...optimism.  Why is Metropolis so different than Modern Times? - hoffman

I think WWI had a lot to do with it.  The Europeans suffered through the war while Americans saw themselves as knights in shining armor, this is particuarly true of war films of the era.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 14, 2007, 10:04:06 AM
William Wyler was was a notable exception to the Hollywood films at the time, but I see that perhaps his greatest work, iThe Best Years of Our Lives, was made in 1946 after WWII,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_Years_of_Our_Lives

But then Wyler was European by birth,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wyler



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 14, 2007, 11:32:41 AM
TBYoOL is a great film, would be glad to see it again.  Or a Lynch film (can it be post-Ehead??).  Or a film by Kubrick, Wilder, Hitchcock, Huston, Kieslowski, Altman, Antonioni, Bunuel...to name a few guys who haven't let me down too much.

Jbottle needs to be read with the notion in mind that he might be joking.  And it's hard to be funny if you are constrained by propriety and political correctness at every turn.  I think we need to allow everyone some cave-ins in the creative mining expedition called "humor."

 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 14, 2007, 11:32:58 AM
American cinema in that era (including Wyler with The Best Years of Our Lives, Jezebel, Wuthering Heights....epics all) certainly had a different feel than Post WWII German cinema.  After the war, many German films were confiscated the American Office of War Information and replaced with films whose aim was to make the German people feel responsible for the atrocities committed during the war. After the propaganda phase, most German films that were accepted for showing were films that showed Germany as a nation in physical and moral ruins..  The film industry didn't begin to recover until the 60's.

Here's an example of what the OWI was looking for...one of the first movies in production in Germany post-war.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.filmportal.de/df/3b/Uebersicht,,,,,,,,BFA5C6B00A76445DBD4D7145886FD86A,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=6&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DUnd%2B%25C3%25BCber%2Buns%2Bder%2BHimmel%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 14, 2007, 11:55:24 AM
You are right, barton. 

Hoffman, I think it would be interesting to look at some of the Hitchcock movies of that era, Foreign Correspondent, Saboteur, and Lifeboat coming to mind, not to mention, Carol Reed's The Third Man, particularly in the way these films viewed the Germans.  As I remember, Hitchcock got into some hot water over Lifeboat.   I hadn't realized that Lifeboat was based on a story by John Steinbeck.  I think we might even lure whiskeypriest into the discussion if we take on The Third Man, which Criterion has been so nice to restore for us.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 14, 2007, 01:58:02 PM
There was nothing homophobic about my ravings last night, migh've been a return of near incoherency-boy, which I generally regret, but the effort, however weak, to have a good time is the general aim.

Tarantino, if those representations about his comment on cinema today are correct, seems headed in the direction of Peter Bogdanovich, bloviating film critic who also made two good movies.  I hope not for QT, because RD and PF are two of my favourtite movies ever.  I'll even give him "Jackie Brown," which I thought was average but the consensus is that it was good, so, sure. 

Not having made a good movie in ten years doesn't leave somebody with his talent much credibility about film storytelling, and sound more like the coked-up loudmouth who spews bullshit on Conan every now and then.  But I don't care if he's an asshole if he makes good stories, but he should practice what he preaches.

The "Kill Bill" films are terrible, and what might've seemed like an okay adventure to do once, by the second one it's trainwreck "throwing good money after bad," if that's the return to auteurism, they can have it.  The Coen Bros. seem to have no trouble making studio friendly fare and then doing something more daring.  Maybe that's the sort of storytelling QT is so envious of not doing.  It would put his comments into a reasonable refrain anyway.  Too bad.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 14, 2007, 02:06:11 PM
“One never knows when the blow may fall.
When I saw Rollo Martins first I made this
note on him for my security police files:
“In normal circumstances a cheerful fool.
Drinks too much and may cause a little
trouble. Whenever a woman passes raises
his eyes and makes some comment, but
I get the impression that really he’d rather
not be bothered. Has never really grown
up and perhaps that accounts for the way
he worshipped Lime.”

—Graham Greene, The Third Man



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 14, 2007, 04:18:46 PM
Dzimas,

Hans Albers is not exactly an example (if you don't mind the double negative going from English to German?) of a non-verneinen actor somehow rehabilitated.

If there is one thing that strange little film,The Good German, clarified, which was certainly not consistent in the lighting, how decisions were made as to who was whom was a tricky business.

About the only reason Fritz Lang is different from Charlie Chaplin is obvious, Modern Times was a comedy that I saw, and Metropolis, which I also saw was surreal modernism since Lang was perhaps a social critic considering his mother was merely a Catholic convert; for the Nazis. He got out in '34, like those I have known because, to the Nazis, he was a Jew just like his mother.  Charlie Chaplin would have categorically fit into their scheme of things too. I was not as amoured of him as my father's generation who needed to laugh but I was fascinated by Peter Lorre for the rest of my life and, on viewing again recently, I can really appreciate Fritz Lang's technique with excuse the expression,"shooting actors" when he creates drama.

So what I am hearing when asked to compare just these two films by these two machters is somewhat different.  That the American authorities  helped along resurgent naziism in 1952 with this: " . . . 'Since the end of the last world war, I have been the object of lies and propaganda by powerful reactionary groups who, by their influence and by the aid of America's yellow press, have created an unhealthy atmosphere in which liberal-minded individuals can be singled out and persecuted. Under these conditions I find it virtually impossible to continue my motion-picture work, and I have therefore given up my residence in the United States.' For sale in Hollywood were Chaplin's studio, offered at $900,000, his house at $150,000 and his yacht at $27,500. "

Really,Dzimas, take a look at that quote posted at 2:06 PM, and read the "sub-text".  Several of us have been tar-brushed with homophobia and now they are jerking the idea of Movie Club  around on a chain to discuss the film they already dissected in their inimitable style at the nytimes.com     When you say, "I think we might even lure whiskeypriest into the discussion if we take on The Third Man, which Criterion has been so nice to restore for us." (in an earlier post). I actually hope he is enjoying Oktoberfest at Kluczynski Federal plaza, which began this week.

"I want to talk about The Third Man (1949)…

And other classics like Pandora’s Box (1929)…"

I was around for all that zither music and Orson back in '49 and what's to be said for all the mystery of it.

Pandora's Box, however, came up in your mention of interest in Weimar (arts in general) and I happened to have gathered the pertinent stuff on Lulu for my sister-in-law whose grandson was in a Chicago production;we intended to see the production on the road in Philadelphia  a year ago.  "Lulu" was of course American;the Leni Riefenstahl material was coverage originally at The New York Times but I got to see many of those films too.  Contrary to popular belief UFA kept on working and Hans Albers, from the link that lhoffman suggests(http://tinyurl.com/2z3qhs ), is well known for his work with Leni.

"His most famous song "Auf der Reeperbahn nachts um halb eins" (On the Reeperbahn at 12.30 a.m.) is the unofficial anthem of the colorful neighborhood of St. Pauli, which is known for its brothels, music and night clubs" imdb   (because he is of course known for Der Blaue Engel)








Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 14, 2007, 04:22:42 PM
Ps. the Chaplin quote is from Times magazine, April 14,1953


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on September 14, 2007, 04:31:32 PM
Could we talk David Lynch for a minute?  Does anyone understand his movies?  I like their weird, surrealistic touch but then he goes throwing dwarves in and I'm thrown off.  Note - this is not a dwarfophobic post, I don't care what anyone says.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 14, 2007, 04:40:55 PM
The dwarves represent, in essence....small people.  OK, I haven't made a lot of progress with the dwarves.  But there are plenty of Lynch movies that are not loaded with dwarves, so one can delve into his canon without having to deal with that particular symbolism.  As a general thing, it's useful to know that Lynch is obsessed with the 1950s and views American life in that era as taking on some of the qualities of a freakshow.  Not to say that everyone in his films is necessarily a Diane Arbus subject, but that he creates a sort of myth of that time which serves as a big bag full of archetypal weirdness, i.e. you can make really good dream stuff (i.e. surrealism) out of it, with characters that are, in various ways, exaggerated and grotesque.  And the veneer of suburban or small town normality serves to heighten the effect of the grotesquerie as it bleeds through the surface.

 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 14, 2007, 04:48:11 PM
Lynch is obsessed with the 1950s and views American life in that era as taking on some of the qualities of a freakshow.   

Just the 1950s? Wake up and smell the coffee.

Welcome to Freakshow (2007).


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 14, 2007, 04:55:03 PM

...and now they are jerking the idea of Movie Club
around on a chain to discuss the film they already
dissected in their inimitable style at the nytimes.com 

When you say, "I think we might even lure whiskeypriest
into the discussion if we take on The Third Man, which
Criterion has been so nice to restore for us." I actually
hope he is enjoying Oktoberfest at Kluczynski Federal
plaza, which began this week.

I was around for all that zither music and Orson back
in '49 and what's to be said for all the mystery of it.


“A number of names were simultaneously flung
at Martins—little sharp pointed names like Stein,
round pebbles like Woolf. A young Austrian with
an ardent intellectual black forelock called out,
“Daphne du Maurier,” and Mr. Crabbin winced and
looked sideways at Martins. He said in an
undertone, “Be kind to them.”

—Graham Greene, The Third Man




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 14, 2007, 05:01:02 PM
I thought Mulholland was about how dreams and dreams of Hollywood success provide excape from and delusion about how grim reality is in life or in Hollywood.  The idea of being discovered vs. being exploited, the freedom of dreaming vs. the certitude and finality of life, desire for love vs. furious lonely carnal masturbation, the implication of the viewer and the filmaker in exploitation of lovemaking between women and the beauty of two beautiful women making love, the Nancy Drewish girlish curiosity vs. a rotting corpse, I think overall it was about the horror of willful or survivalistic and necessary delusion colliding with disillusionment and fear.  But that's me.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 14, 2007, 05:07:15 PM
"Inimitable style"  :) :) :)   Anyone can analyze a movie when they "know" everyone involved in the thing....just "call" them up and ask what they were thinking.  Course if they're all dead, I suppose one contacts a medium..... ;)

But, I would definitely go for The Third Man.  

List of movies I like:
Pan's Labyrinth
The Third Man
Before Night Falls
The Best Years of Their Lives
(maybe compared to a German or French film from Post WWII)
Hitchcock as suggested by Dzimas
Eraserhead is good stuff...but that chicken dinner gets me every time.   Anyone see Lynch's 6 minute short on vomiting?

What was the problem over Lifeboat?  Issues of authorship?




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 14, 2007, 06:35:50 PM
Anyone see Lynch's 6 minute short on vomiting?


The Short Films of David Lynch (2005) is an interesting DVD—for those moviegoers curious not only about Eraserhead but also about how an artist becomes a filmmaker:

“…a true iconoclast, his interest in moviemaking began not with an interest in film, per se, but with a eureka moment in which he saw one of his paintings tremble and decided to make one that intentionally moved. (Given all that can be traced back to this bolt of lightning, is Lynch Frankenstein or the monster?) That first piece, 1967's Six Men Getting Sick, was a feat of engineering, a 40-second 16mm animation projected continuously onto life-size casts of Lynch himself with the aid of a specially-rigged take-up spool. The DVD, alas, offers a pale simulation of the original exhibit (a four-minute/six-revolution loop backed by wailing sirens), and in and of itself the self-explanatory clip is hardly innovative—the theme of purging being a cliché among beginning animators and experimental filmmakers alike. As archaeology, though, it's fascinating to see traces of John Hurt's Elephant Man prosthesis in Lynch's Francis Bacon figures.”

http://filmfreakcentral.net/dvdreviews/eraserhead.htm

Six Men Getting Sick (1967) is a sculpture more than a film.

When I first saw it I thought of the Lady in the Radiator and some of the other scenes in Eraserhead. Lynch’s father was a research scientist for the U.S. Department of Agriculture—so one sees Lynch's imagination morphing out of that into something else.

“I always wanted to be a painter, and I was drawing and painting all along,” Lynch says.

He went to the Corcoran School of Art in Washington DD on weekends—then to the Boston Museum School. Then Europe—then the Philadelphia Academy of the Fine Arts. He was most impressed by the achievement of action painters like Jackson Pollock, Franz Kline and Jack Tworkov. Francis Bacon and Edward Hopper later.

The Six Men Getting Sick loop cost $200—shown on a sculptured screen on which 3 human shaped figures protruded, intentionally distorting the projected image.

“There were lots of things moving and happening—it was a very active film. There would be all this wild business happening, and then they would get sick. And then it would start all over again.”

Eraserhead is full of such neo-noir sculptural tableaus…which makes it difficult sometimes for the usual moviegoer to get into. But one's you get into it--it's hard to get out.   :)

But then if you know where Lynch is coming from…you know where he’s going…


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 14, 2007, 07:06:30 PM
 Speech patterns from English to German and vice-versa

 But those you get into-- it's  hard to get out. 

"But one's you get into it--it's hard to get out."  quote,re:#43


Lhoffman
Re: Movie Club
« Reply #42 on: Today at 05:07:15 PM »"Inimitable style"       Anyone can analyze a movie when they "know" everyone involved in the thing....just "call" them up and ask what they were thinking.  Course if they're all dead, I suppose one contacts a medium.....

??????????????????????????????????????????????
My last word on that subject:
Companies (Exact Matches) (Displaying 1 Result)  1. Dupont
 (Post Production Services and Facilities)

http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=Dupont


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 14, 2007, 09:32:23 PM
The Alphabet (1968)

Two other early films on the SFODL dvd are relevant to understanding Lynch’s oeuvre--The Alphabet (1968, 4 minutes) and The Grandmother (1970, 34 minutes).

For example, much has been said about Dune 1984. For me, Frank Herbert and David Lynch’s collaboration with Dune has similarities with the Graham Greene-Carol Reed collaboration with The Third Man:

“The Third Man was never written to be read but only to be seen. Like many love affairs it started at a dinner table and continued with many headaches in many places: Vienna, Venice, Ravello, London, Santa Monica…”—Graham Greene, The Third Man

Greene’s preface mentions how Korda asked him to write a film for Reed—to follow Fallen Idol. Who really knows what happens when a writer and director get together to do a film? Perhaps even they don’t know.  If you’ve read Dune then you know how dense and complex the novel is—perhaps it took an artist rather than just a straight film director to bring it off.

The Alphabet (1968) is about an “alphabet-obsessed” nightmare Lynch’s niece has—in the movie she wakes up spewing blood. Some say it’s a dream about metaphorical menstruation—signaling the death of girlhood and all that that implies? I thought of my boyhood on the hand— my naïve impulses to rationalize dream logic with its seemingly totally irrational adolescent weird things going on like wetdreams and nocturnal emissions.

My boy-mind couldn’t understand it—couldn’t conceptualize what was happening to me. Even when I was told that it was natural and every boy goes thru it—still it was so bizarre and the dreams so very weird and alien. My “alphabet” rational mind tried to wrap around it—but the experience was so alien I had nothing to compare with. It was like an Other had commandeered my body—leaving the boy behind…it took awhile for me to catch up with it.

The same with The Grandmother (1970)—it’s another movie about the Other. A boy who reenacts the Jack and the Beanstalk fairytale—to create a fairy godmother to help him thru his crazy dysfunctional family adolescence. There’s more of a “collaboration” going on between the boy and his fairy grandmother—than with the girl and her dream alphabet. The boy goes beyond language—while the girl is still caught up memorizing and being caught up in the alphabet-loop of her dreams.

Language has its limits—in terms of the Other. Who knows how extra-linguistic collaboration with the Other works? Something tells me it has to do with what Borges is talking about in his short stories—“Borges and I,” “The Other” and “August 25, 1983.” But I’ll leave that up to the Latin American littérateurs & magic realists. I’m not very good at fabulation, don't you know…   ;)

I don’t know if any film critics have looked into the possible influence between these two early short films and Dune. But what Frank Herbert says toward the end down below sounds intriguing:

“Lynch was notoriously resistant to structure during his tenure at the AFI, claiming ignorance of basic narrative techniques. And yet, however avant-garde they might be, The Grandmother and even The Alphabet are somewhat archetypal (not only does reciting the alphabet song impose an arc, but Lynch also follows the girl's restless sleep through to its logical end), suggesting that something Lynch's future collaborator Frank Herbert once said about the human inability to conceive of a truly alien life-form applies to fiction, too.”

http://filmfreakcentral.net/dvdreviews/eraserhead.htm

The human inability to conceive a truly alien life-form—especially if that alien life-form is us—sounds paradoxical. But if what Herbert says is true, then surely it must apply not only to fiction but film as well. We probably wouldn’t even know an alien—if we met one. Although sometimes I think there's one here on this Elba site...  :'(

Something tells me exopolitics isn’t as simple as we think—it’s probably just as complex as any collaboration is between creative minds. Such as Lynch and Herbert—or Greene and Reed…





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 15, 2007, 02:41:36 AM
Could we talk David Lynch for a minute?  Does anyone understand his movies?  I like their weird, surrealistic touch but then he goes throwing dwarves in and I'm thrown off.  Note - this is not a dwarfophobic post, I don't care what anyone says.

My take on dwarves is that Lynch knows most people are afraid of dwarves, so he uses them to pry into your subconscious and release those fears, and then he can play with them the way he likes, through corridors, mirrors and other "funhouse" elements many of us experience in our dreams.  The ending of "Twin Peaks" is a classic case in point.  I think Lynch is one of those who believes certain persons can get into your dreams and twist and turn them, and ultimately use them for evil purposes, like Bob.  What better provocateur than a dwarf!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 15, 2007, 11:13:06 AM
Makes sense to me.  Any person whose body is an unusual shape can be used in a film to conjure fear and anxiety and an overall sense of unreality.

A director who deals with Lynch themes (bent reality, dreams, movie-within-movie) is Paul Auster.  I would go so far as to recommend his "Lulu on the Bridge" as worthy of a group viewing and discussion.  With a stellar cast (Harvey Keitel, Willem Dafoe, Vanessa Redgrave, Myra Sorvino, Mandy Patinkin, Gina Gershon, et al.), we go into a strange world that follows the shooting of a jazz musician, in which he recovers (or does he?) and falls in love with a waitress/aspiring actress, who he later helps to get the Louise Brooks role, "Lulu," in a remake that is being made of Pandora's Box.  A strange rock is found by the jazzman, a sort of paranormal Maguffin, and the lovers are pursued by various groups intent on its recovery.

I felt the film covered more territory in a more accessible way, in 100 minutes, than Lynch did in his much-longer MD or IE.  And where else can you hear Willem Dafoe try to sing and dance "Singin' in the Rain" ?




 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Detective_Winslow on September 15, 2007, 01:24:33 PM
First rule of movie club:  Don't talk about movie club.
Second rule of movie club:  Don't talk about movie club.
Third rule of movie club:  No references to gay movies (splooge)
Fourth rule of movie club:  No one is to post anything from 2-3 pm.
Fifth rule of movie club:  Don't forget the third rule.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 15, 2007, 01:49:41 PM
The Alphabet...metaphorical menstruation, end of childhood and all that implies. 

Dunno.  In his introduction to the short, Lynch comments that his wife was visiting her parents at the same time as his young niece and that the niece had a nightmare.  The niece was reciting the alphabet during the nightmare.  He doesn't mention the age of the niece, only the word "young."  Lynch has also said the short is about fear of learning. 

The use of his wife as the dreamer, and her vomiting of blood adds an interesting dimension.  Suppose you combine the ideas of fear of learning with metaphorical menstruation.  The thing seems to take on the idea of The Fall.  I would assume the mythological Eve didn't menstruate until she experienced the loss of innocence that followed her eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.   



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 15, 2007, 02:14:51 PM
The crying creature in The Alphabet could have served as the germ of the idea for the mutant in Eraserhead....which could easily be interpreted as a movie about loss of innocence and fear of learning. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 15, 2007, 03:03:14 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/74e/cc6/74ecc64b-7c17-472e-bd1b-59c595d55d51)

Dzimas Barton

Speaking of dwarfs, Michael J. Anderson plays “Samson” in the HBO series Carnivàle (2003)—about a dustbowl depression days touring carnival of freaks. Dwarfs, Siamese twins, mind readers, bearded ladies, convicts, roustabouts, a boy on the run…trying to find himself.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0319969/

Then the history of art if full of dwarfs…European courts full of them, as well as fairy tales like Rumpelstiltskin…jokers, guides, spinning gold from straw…


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 15, 2007, 03:04:46 PM
The crying creature in The Alphabet could have served as the germ of the idea for the mutant in Eraserhead....which could easily be interpreted as a movie about loss of innocence and fear of learning. 

More dwarfs...  :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 15, 2007, 03:19:40 PM
The Alphabet...metaphorical menstruation, end of childhood and all that implies. 

I guess we all go to www.imdb.com a lot...

I know I do and the external review links page is important to me...before & after watching a movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074486/externalreviews

Like Eraserhead (1977) has 70 links to reviews...that's how I came across the review of Lynch's short films.

http://filmfreakcentral.net/dvdreviews/eraserhead.htm

I hadn't thought of the reviewer's critique of Alphabet along those lines...

But yes, loss of innocence and fear of learning...I can relate to that can't you?

I don't know about girlhood but boyhood...well, yeah, Alphabet, The Grandmother, Eraserhead, Blue Velvet, Dune...

Beginnings are always important...like she says at the beginning of Dune...

Loss of innocence and fear of the unknown...those are pretty universal themes...










Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 15, 2007, 03:25:24 PM
First rule of movie club:  Don't talk about movie club.
Second rule of movie club:  Don't talk about movie club.
Third rule of movie club:  No references to gay movies (splooge)
Fourth rule of movie club:  No one is to post anything from 2-3 pm.
Fifth rule of movie club:  Don't forget the third rule.

Sixth rule of the movie club: None of the above rules apply...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 15, 2007, 08:53:59 PM
Here's a site where you can watch Lynch's The Grandmother.  This one, I can definitely buy the idea of metaphorical menstruation and the pre-adolescent dealing with fears related to leaving childhood behind.


http://stage6.divx.com/Experimental-Films/video/1148176/David-Lynch---The-Grandmother

The nice thing about The Short Films of David Lynch, he gives intros to each of the films. 



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 16, 2007, 05:02:38 AM
Thanks for the link to The Grandmother, hoffman.  I've been interested in his short films and animation, but haven't decided whether I wanted to buy the DVD's.  Maybe we should go with Lynch as the initial topic of discussion, since he seems to be on everyone's mind at the moment.  Not too long ago I received the Faber & Faber book Lynch on Lynch, but haven't read it yet.  I don't know how much he "reveals" in it.  He doesn't seem like the guy who would give away too many of his secrets.  But, he has done an interesting number of departure films, such as The Straight Story,

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/recap;_ylt=AmyKOnZDrFI6AjYIZu3NqCccvrYF?gid=200709150029&prov=ap


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 16, 2007, 06:18:04 AM
I did go for The Threepenny Opera,

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zG+rWy5GL._AA240_.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 16, 2007, 06:23:45 AM
Catching the Big Fish

dzimas hoffman

I have the above book written by Lynch and dip into it now and then. What’s nice about this book is it’s a series of quick snapshot-essays into filmmaking and what goes on inside the mind of a director like Lynch. I chose this “A Sense of Place” piece to give you both an idea of how Lynch thinks about soundscapes:

“A sense of place is so critical in cinema, because you want to go into another world. Every story has its own world, and its own feel, and its own mood. So you try to put together all these things—these little details—to create that sense of place. I has a lot to do with lighting and sound. The sounds that come into a room can help paint a world there and make it so much fuller. While many sets are good enough for a wide shot, in my mind, they should be enough for close scrutiny, for the  little details to show. You may not ever really see them all, but you’ve got to feel that they’re there, somehow, to feel that’s it’s a real place, a real world.”—David Lynch, Catching the Big Fish: Meditation, Consciousness, and Creativity, “A Sense of Place,” New York: Penguin, 2006

Nathan Lee (Village Voice) goes into this in more detail describing the soundscape of Eraserhead seen in a theater as opposed to DVD:

“I remember one thing only of my reunion with Eraserhead: the discovery that to see the film means nothing—one must also hear it. Viewing it alone in the dark in my bedroom, its aphonic oddities may have been diminished on TV, but they well enough amazed. Watched on an appliance, it sounded like one: a refrigerator on the fritz perhaps, or a vacuum cleaner stuck in the bathroom. In the larger reaches of a grand old space, bounding off marble and chandelier, the soundscape of Eraserhead opened a vast new dimension. Choose your onomatopoeia: clang, drone, hiss, buzz, squawk, howl, khzzsh-shzz-frphft. All of which echoed as if housed in an intergalactic seashell cocked to the ears of an acid-tripping gargantua…”

http://www.villagevoice.com/film/0703,lee,75564,20.html


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 16, 2007, 07:42:13 AM
In an odd way, Lynch reminds of Glenn Gould, especially after watching 32 Short Films About Glenn Gould,

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/514FB2F6V0L._AA240_.jpg)

Too bad the movie is so hard to find these days.  I can imagine Lynch sitting it at a diner orchestrating what he hears into a film script or at the very least a short film. Much of Twin Peaks revolved around the Diner.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 16, 2007, 08:00:24 AM
Here's a site where you can watch Lynch's The Grandmother.  This one, I can definitely buy the idea of metaphorical menstruation and the pre-adolescent dealing with fears related to leaving childhood behind.

http://stage6.divx.com/Experimental-Films/video/1148176/David-Lynch---The-Grandmother


(http://www.nndb.com/people/720/000024648/david-lynch.jpg)

dzimas hoffman

Perhaps we could discuss this in more detail.

To me the idea of young womanhood (metaphorical menstruation) and young manhood (metaphorial noctural emissions) is bound up with rite de passage. With artists and filmmakers like Lynch there's also a bildungsroman element...e.g. The Grandmother.

Most people it seems to me live thru these rite de passage events...eventually perhaps if they're lucky arriving at what AARP calls modern maturity. Some people reenact these rite de passage events thru their children and grandchildren. Others enjoy reading about it and seeing movies about it...

But what about filmmakers like David Lynch or Murnau or Lang or Siodmak or Wilder...these problematic filmmakers who do more than just live thru rite de passage? They film it...

What is it they're doing? Reliving rite de passage? Why? Why go thru adolescence again? Wasn't once enough?

Perhaps filmic rite de passage never ends...but moves forward film by film?










Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 16, 2007, 08:12:49 AM
In an odd way, Lynch reminds of Glenn Gould, especially after watching 32 Short Films About Glenn Gould. Too bad the movie is so hard to find these days.  I can imagine Lynch sitting it at a diner orchestrating what he hears into a film script or at the very least a short film. Much of Twin Peaks revolved around the Diner.

(http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/hopper/street/hopper.nighthawks.jpg)

Please tell me more. I know that Edward Hopper was an influence on Lynch. One look at Nighthawks and...

The same with Inge and Bus Stop... Several Hopper paintings capture the lonliness of night diners late...

Other directors have picked up on this...

http://www.neiu.edu/~stagectr/BusStop/dirnotes.htm



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 16, 2007, 12:50:39 PM
Dzimas Pugetopolis

I'm not sure anyone would do well at lunch with Gould...the man was brillliant but insane.  Unfortunately true of many musicians....People who spend many hours a day practicing open new pathways between the hemispheres of the brain.  Perhaps there is something in the formation of these neurological pathways that opens insight into some areas, but shuts down others?

On Lynch and rites of passage (and perhaps why dwarves are vaguely threatening).. "Why go through adolescence again, wasn't once enough?":  Could be that Lynch is perceived as being incomprehensible because that is his aim.  Life doesn't make sense, and that is probably true times two for adolescence.  Most artists who reinterpret adolescence seem to want to re-write it, explain, justify.  Lynch doesn't do that.  Adolescence is frightening and confusing and that is the way Lynch shows it. 

On Dwarves....could be seen as representative of adolescence and the idea of an adult struggling to free himself from a child's body.  Perhaps at a subconscious level, they remind us of the insecurity of adolescence.  Young children  don't seem to feel threatened by dwarves.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 01:45:08 PM
I had to wonder whether our contemporaries would place the same put-down on Elvis Costello?   

Then as fore runners,would it be necessary to psychoanalyze Chopin or Beethoven, in retrospect since movies have also been made about them(how about that Franz Lizst?) I especially liked the review about five paragraphs down from here that begins,"Girard...; because it emphasizes
that difference, which has taken place from the conventional movies about famous musicians, in this production of : 32 pieces...


The structure of the film is based on the structure of the piece that Glenn Gould is most famous for playing, Bach's Goldberg Variations. The Goldberg Variations are 32 short pieces of music that are usually played together.

As the title suggests, this dramatised documentary about the eccentric Canadian pianist Glenn Gould is broken up into thirty-two short films (mirroring the thirty-two part structure of Bach's 'Goldberg Variations', the recording that Gould made famous), each giving us an insight into some aspect of Gould's life and career.

"I saw this on DVD and enjoyed it thoroughly. The means of portraying a person - through short and disconnected vignettes - was surprisingly natural. When you think about it, this is often how we learn about people: a collection of stories, incidents, things their friends say about them, memories from childhood. Not only that, but it nicely parallels some of the music, such as the short pieces in Bach's Well-Tempered Klavier. Each has a different mood, but together they paint a complete picture. This movie is a lot of fun for anyone who is fond of classical music and willing to experiment a little bit with film. " quote from a viewer/reviewer

ditto:

"I had never heard of Glenn Gould before this movie was released, but I had heard so many good things about the film that I just had to check it out. Am I glad I did. The film is quite unconventional in that it is not a strict "biopic" in any sense of the word. The film -- much like the title suggests -- takes 32 vignettes that concern some aspect of GG's life. Gould, a Canadian classical pianist, was by all accounts an unusual yet charming man. A merciless hypochondriac who popped pills incessantly and wore heavy clothing even in the middle of summer, Gould was also enormously talented, both as a pianist and a producer of highly unusual radio programs. The film examines Gould's life, his passions, his obsessions, and of course his music. The soundtrack is breathtaking. Colm Feore portrays the enigmatic Gould brilliantly. If you are a fan of daring, original films -- as well as a Gould fan -- you will not want to miss this."

 

"I enjoyed this film considerably, however, I am also a die hard Glenn Gould fan. The film captures the genius and eccentricity of Gould with vignettes scored with Gould's interpretations of Bach and Beethoven weaved with glimpses of his autistic, or Asperger's, personality. Some of the negative or neutral critics listed here are not completely inappropriate. The film tends to cater to the classical music devotee as opposed to developing a narrative for the casually disinterested viewer. However, anyone with superficial knowledge of Gould, but with an interest in Bach or Beethoven, will enjoy this film, if anything, for it's choices in musical scores. "

"Girard succeeds where many have failed- he creates an intimate portrait of an artist without falling subject to the cumbersome confines of the narrative 'birth to death' storyline format. What better way to breathe life into a musician's 'story' than rhythmically assembling a collection of several recreated happenings, bits of documentary conversation, and performances of actual musical pieces (orchestrated works of Gould's) that each examine a particular instance from Glen Gould's life? "

"By avoiding a typical diluted overview of the artist's entire timeline of events, Girard instead picks out specific happenings in Gould's life that each tells a story of a complex, confused, and brilliant man. These shorts are shown in a somewhat chronological order, so as not to completely ignore the fact that the collection of shorts aims to sculpt a more complete picture of Gould. Their consecutive placement being rhythmically conscious, the viewer is never lost in the experimental efforts or the non-narrative spectrum of the shorts, as they are closely followed by the more tangible aspects of Gould's life. Aesthetic elements from Gould's creative life are often carried over from one short to the next, which helps reinforce the unity as a whole of the 32 separate films....
An excellent film for those who are humbled at the overwhelming confusion even the brilliant can carry. "

"This one makes you believe that art is not dead as long as the people like Gould still exist."



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 01:49:01 PM
Ps

Anything not my own thoughts, or those of others in quotation marks,are all thown into the total basket included from the total package of imdb of course


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 02:13:15 PM

Makes sense to me.  Any person whose body is an unusual shape can be used in a film to conjure fear and anxiety and an overall sense of unreality.

A director who deals with Lynch themes (bent reality, dreams, movie-within-movie) is Paul Auster.  I would go so far as to recommend his "Lulu on the Bridge" as worthy of a group viewing and discussion.  With a stellar cast (Harvey Keitel, Willem Dafoe, Vanessa Redgrave, Myra Sorvino, Mandy Patinkin, Gina Gershon, et al.), we go into a strange world that follows the shooting of a jazz musician, in which he recovers (or does he?) and falls in love with a waitress/aspiring actress, who he later helps to get the Louise Brooks role, "Lulu," in a remake that is being made of Pandora's Box.  A strange rock is found by the jazzman, a sort of paranormal Maguffin, and the lovers are pursued by various groups intent on its recovery.

I felt the film covered more territory in a more accessible way, in 100 minutes, than Lynch did in his much-longer MD or IE.  And where else can you hear Willem Dafoe try to sing and dance "Singin' in the Rain" ?


Agree with you 100%     I can watch this over and over again (even when I forget that Vanessa Redgrave was ever in this one because the important character interactions are the love that Keitel has for Mira Sorvino*)

And I have the same feeling as you express about the comparative abilities of Lynch with the genius of Auster.  I think Lynch over-rated. Auster has a better aesthetic sensibility and sensitivity  to the blatant Lynchisms.

I learned to start watching and love that daughter* of Paul Sorvino's from the moment she began to dance in:   Summer of Sam.(with Leguizimo)
And I bent harrie's ear about Triumph of Love, from the Marivaux play, in which she played opposite Ben Kingsley(among others...).
Then oddly enough, Human Trafficking, done on tv, with Robert Carlyle, another favourite, some of the time, even as I cringe at what he is portraying.

Which brings me right back to Lulu on the Bridge and the William Dafoe performance, who does the same thing. He is my "landsmann",after all, whom I missed pre-Wooster Group, when he was still at Theatre X.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 02:15:31 PM
Ps. barton, there is also the Mystery that runs through this complex film.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 02:20:32 PM
lhoffman re:#49

"The thing seems to take on the idea of The Fall.  I would assume the mythological Eve didn't menstruate until she experienced the loss of innocence that followed her eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

Oh, c'mon now.  There's a little bit of a line in there before that loss, in the script of One (of the extras?) which reads, "Be Fruitful and Multiply".    Loss of innocence is all too literal a myth fashioned for us in old wives tales told by old wives in cassocks.   


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 16, 2007, 02:23:17 PM
All true, "be fruitful and multiply"...but, as I'm certain your rabbinical friend will explain to you, childbirth took on quite a different aspect after the fall.  And I doubt there would have been anything Edenic in the idea of Eve running aroung the garden, naked with blood flowing down her legs.

(Apologies to the boys.... ;) )


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 16, 2007, 02:31:28 PM
I like Paul Auster a lot too, but I can't see comparing him to Lynch.  He aims at something entirely different in his movies.  "Smoke" is one of my favorite films.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 16, 2007, 02:32:48 PM
Interesting trivia on Lulu on the Bridge:

The character of Dr. Van Horn was originally written for novelist Salman Rushdie, a good friend of Paul Auster. Because the fatwah issued against Rushdie by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1989 had not been lifted, production costs would have exploded because of the necessary security to guard Rushdie. The part eventually went to Willem Dafoe.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0125879/


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 02:34:10 PM
I did go for The Threepenny Opera,

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zG+rWy5GL._AA240_.jpg)



I was trying to figure out which post was this in reference to?  I recently contacted the L.A. Symphony and Opera people with a question about another Brecht production by Charlie Mingus and Kenneth Rexroth doing libretto which I want to pursue, as the contact person was able to correct some lyrics for me from two different songs in Drei Groschen Oper that I get entangled.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 02:37:14 PM
All true, "be fruitful and multiply"...but, as I'm certain your rabbinical friend will explain to you, childbirth took on quite a different aspect after the fall.  And I doubt there would have been anything Edenic in the idea of Eve running aroung the garden, naked with blood flowing down her legs.

(Apologies to the boys.... ;) )


Well, the whole idea is an absurd myth for the facts of life isn't it.  The British rabbinate, which I told  you about(re: Kingsolver's fiction) is not "my rabbinical friend" now is it?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 02:41:09 PM
Dzimas,Thanks for #70 but:

:
I like Paul Auster a lot too, but I can't see comparing him to Lynch.  He aims at something entirely different in his movies.  "Smoke" is one of my favorite films.
:

I wasn't comparing Auster to Lynch.  I think he is far superior to Lynch.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 02:45:44 PM
Maria Tatar is the expert on Rumpelstiltskin among other things Grimm.

He is not merely a dwarf but has an element of the demonic in his nature.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 02:49:37 PM
That reminded me of having an extra dwarf note  that I forgot to print, I think? Or did I mention it?

Carnivale is one of those I hated as well(long before, John from Cincinnati,became a mistake of HBO) but I did recognize Clea du Val  whom harrie identified for me when I saw her again in Zodiac recently.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 16, 2007, 02:59:46 PM
Maddie, glad you've gotten so much from that fine film, LotB.  Yes, there is a Mystery that runs all through it, and I like the way it takes you to the end and lets you decide how to interpret it.  Auster doesn't spoonfeed the viewer, or even force the central mystery in such a way that it has to dominate everything else.  

Dzimas, the imdb entry on the Rushdie problem is inaccurate.  I heard an interview with Auster and he said that the producers and insurance company were fine with having Rushdie come on the set, and had worked out the security pretty well.  It was, in fact, a vocal segment of the crew that came forward and said, basically, "we fear for our lives if Rushdie shows up here, and we will drop everything and leave if you go through with this."

Auster felt that this was kind of silly, given that Rushdie himself felt safe enough to be spending time with his children at that time.  Auster felt the crew was overreacting.




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 16, 2007, 03:00:28 PM
All true, "be fruitful and multiply"...but, as I'm certain your rabbinical friend will explain to you, childbirth took on quite a different aspect after the fall.  And I doubt there would have been anything Edenic in the idea of Eve running aroung the garden, naked with blood flowing down her legs.

(Apologies to the boys.... ;) )


Well, the whole idea is an absurd myth for the facts of life isn't it.  The British rabbinate, which I told  you about(re: Kingsolver's fiction) is not "my rabbinical friend" now is it?

Not really.  The Jewish mythology of Eden is far older than anything put out by the fellows in cassocks.  And the meaning goes deeper than the physical.  Judaism views menstruation as unclean....thus the necessity of the mikvah.  Impurity would have no place in the garden of eden.  

although it's possible Lilith menstruated...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 05:37:05 PM
Good thinking, I meant to mention the first wife. no offspring? I understand about the "unclean" because I described that to you about Rebekkah seated on the camel saddle when offering that version of Jakov and  Rebekkah in explaining the name "Ada", in Kingsolver's Poisonwood Bible.

Likewise "mikvah" came up in descriptions  in the last several weeks when I mentioned the bath houses of New York, lower Manhattan as the normal way to bathe, other than bathtub in the kitchen of tenements in East Village or Alphabet city, inconvenient since these were cold-water flats and you had to boil water.  Bob and I compared notes on this when he was at NYU and I was uptown studying with Graham, at the time that Castro arrived in Manhattan.  I had been living east of 2nd.Ave(the Yiddish Theatre district)... Anyway, I think the whole thing came up when I mentioned that these baths still exist in the environs of Paris like suburb St.Denis, now banlieu/ or lieuban, where the Muslim women still go to the bath-houses, in fact you were showing me your new pictorial ability and the question came up about the so-called European women looking away while being washed, scrubbed, or rinsed by the so-called Moorish bath attendent, something about Edward Said and "Orientalism", the paintings done in this period in Europe display an attitude of the period you can also see in the film, Wuthering Heights (Lawrence Olivier version).  Servants either in England or in France(where these paintings originated) minded their manners which insisted that they were not free to look upon their employers nudity--that too is downright biblical injunction, you might say.

Painters,  however have the problem that realistically they cannot convey what they wish to communicate because it seems to them how the hell will they if the bath attendent can not see to bathe the bather. So they paint as they will, or to the will of the buyer, repeating the social stratification. I don't know exactly what Edward Said had to say about this in his work on,"Orientalism" which somehow took a tangent interpreted otherswise into magical realism. Nonsense, or Posh and tittle, not to mention poppycock as well. If I'm going to have someone analyse class stratification by art patronage, John Berger anyday. English you know, lived in France.

Lilith was in fact a bloody demon. So I might just as well drop off the Rump el stilzchen that I promised to look up from my kind friendly German archivaly inclinded once fellow poster wildau.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 05:51:06 PM
Ps,-- why the bath-house, if you had to pour the water into a tub in the kitchen it does  not accord with Leviticus as "mik weh" or "mik vah" which has to be "living waters", a natural source and I believe the laws argued for 24 cubic feet minimum pool.   If you want to go on to what this translates into medical statistics for comparative cancer rates in New York City, some other time, please!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 16, 2007, 05:53:57 PM
Rumpelstilzchen)
Once there was a miller who was poor, but who had a beautiful daughter. Now it happened that he had to go and speak to the King, and in order to make himself appear important he said to him, "I have a daughter who can spin straw into gold." The King said to the miller, "That is an art which pleases me well; if your daughter is as clever as you say, bring her to-morrow to my palace, and I will try what she can do."
And when the girl was brought to him he took her into a room which was quite full of straw, gave her a spinning-wheel and a reel, and said, "Now set to work, and if by to-morrow morning early you have not spun this straw into gold during the night, you must die." Thereupon he himself locked up the room, and left her in it alone. So there sat the poor miller's daughter, and for the life of her could not tell what to do; she had no idea how straw could be spun into gold, and she grew more and more miserable, until at last she began to weep.

But all at once the door opened, and in came a little man, and said, "Good evening, Mistress Miller; why are you crying so?" "Alas!" answered the girl, "I have to spin straw into gold, and I do not know how to do it." "What will you give me," said the manikin, "if I do it for you?" "My necklace," said the girl. The little man took the necklace, seated himself in front of the wheel, and "whirr, whirr, whirr," three turns, and the reel was full; then he put another on, and whirr, whirr, whirr, three times round, and the second was full too. And so it went on until the morning, when all the straw was spun, and all the reels were full of gold. By daybreak the King was already there, and when he saw the gold he was astonished and delighted, but his heart became only more greedy. He had the miller's daughter taken into another room full of straw, which was much larger, and commanded her to spin that also in one night if she valued her life. The girl knew not how to help herself, and was crying, when the door again opened, and the little man appeared, and said, "What will you give me if I spin that straw into gold for you?" "The ring on my finger," answered the girl. The little man took the ring, again began to turn the wheel, and by morning had spun all the straw into glittering gold.

The King rejoiced beyond measure at the sight, but still he had not gold enough; and he had the miller's daughter taken into a still larger room full of straw, and said, "You must spin this, too, in the course of this night; but if you succeed, you shall be my wife." "Even if she be a miller's daughter," thought he, "I could not find a richer wife in the whole world."

When the girl was alone the manikin came again for the third time, and said, "What will you give me if I spin the straw for you this time also?" "I have nothing left that I could give," answered the girl. "Then promise me, if you should become Queen, your first child." "Who knows whether that will ever happen?" thought the miller's daughter; and, not knowing how else to help herself in this strait, she promised the manikin what he wanted, and for that he once more span the straw into gold.

And when the King came in the morning, and found all as he had wished, he took her in marriage, and the pretty miller's daughter became a Queen.

A year after, she had a beautiful child, and she never gave a thought to the manikin. But suddenly he came into her room, and said, "Now give me what you promised." The Queen was horror-struck, and offered the manikin all the riches of the kingdom if he would leave her the child. But the manikin said, "No, something that is living is dearer to me than all the treasures in the world." Then the Queen began to weep and cry, so that the manikin pitied her. "I will give you three days' time," said he, "if by that time you find out my name, then shall you keep your child."

So the Queen thought the whole night of all the names that she had ever heard, and she sent a messenger over the country to inquire, far and wide, for any other names that there might be. When the manikin came the next day, she began with Caspar, Melchior, Balthazar, and said all the names she knew, one after another; but to every one the little man said, "That is not my name." On the second day she had inquiries made in the neighborhood as to the names of the people there, and she repeated to the manikin the most uncommon and curious. "Perhaps your name is Shortribs, or Sheepshanks, or Laceleg?" but he always answered, "That is not my name."

On the third day the messenger came back again, and said, "I have not been able to find a single new name, but as I came to a high mountain at the end of the forest, where the fox and the hare bid each other good night, there I saw a little house, and before the house a fire was burning, and round about the fire quite a ridiculous little man was jumping: he hopped upon one leg, and shouted --

"To-day I bake, to-morrow brew,
The next I'll have the young Queen's child.
Ha! glad am I that no one knew
That Rumpelstiltskin I am styled."
You may think how glad the Queen was when she heard the name! And when soon afterwards the little man came in, and asked, "Now, Mistress Queen, what is my name?" at first she said, "Is your name Conrad?" " No." "Is your name Harry?" "No."
"Perhaps your name is Rumpelstiltskin?"

"The devil has told you that! the devil has told you that!" cried the little man, and in his anger he plunged his right foot so deep into the earth that his whole leg went in; and then in rage he pulled at his left leg so hard with both hands that he tore himself in two.


From Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, Household Tales, trans. Margaret Hunt (London: George Bell, 1884), 1:221-224.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 16, 2007, 10:06:31 PM
This is slowly becoming a "curl up and die" forum about film ravings rather than a vibrant discussion, my departure is announced.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 16, 2007, 10:28:16 PM
This is slowly becoming a "curl up and die" forum about film ravings rather than a vibrant discussion, my departure is announced.

Your "vibrant discussion" contributions will be sorely missed. See ya...

The next sink may be the one I puke in, but for now I've got to find out who put us on this little pain capsule...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 16, 2007, 11:58:51 PM
Thanks for the follow up, barton.  I can see the crew overreacting to Rushdie's appearance, but this was 1998, long after the fatwah had been delivered, wasn't it?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 16, 2007, 11:59:13 PM
Careful, bottle, you are beginning to sound like hippie.  If you can be a good boy maybe we can discuss Starship Troopers at some point.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 17, 2007, 12:53:43 AM
(http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/hopper/street/hopper.nighthawks.jpg)

Please tell me more. I know that Edward Hopper was an influence on Lynch. One look at Nighthawks and...

The Gould reference was mostly in regard to the way Gould would sit in these diners for hours on end (apparently) listening into the conversations and composing radio shows from them.  I think he eventually got a tape recorder and recorded these conversations and mixed these pieces of conversation together into compositions, working more with intonations and the color of the sound, than the conversations themselves.  Lynch is obviously a more visual artist, but I think the rural diner held a certain romantacism for him.  Maybe it was the product of growing up in Missoula, Montana.  The diner does hold a special place in the American psyche as seen in Levinson's Diner, Tarrantino's Pulp Fiction and many other movies. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 17, 2007, 10:25:26 AM
Ironic that you would want to bail, Jbot, when there are more participants and more activity and an pretty good crop of new films this year.

Do you just need more attention?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on September 17, 2007, 01:25:26 PM
Thanks to everyone for the interesting insights into Lynch's symbolism.  I am a huge fan of his - love Twin Peaks and Elephant man among others.

No vibrant discussion?? Huh??


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 17, 2007, 01:38:59 PM
Funny how rarely people talk about The Straight Story.  Kind of a departure, for Lynch.

Lost Highway is the one I just didn't get the first time around, and plan to rent again this fall, maybe around Halloween. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 17, 2007, 02:09:21 PM
Funny how rarely people talk about The Straight Story.  Kind of a departure, for Lynch.
 

"The Straight Story" is in my Top-20 all-time favorite movies, and is my favorite David Lynch movie.  Since seeing it, I'll often see another movie and find it to be "Straight Story"-esque, in terms of simplicity of plot and issues presented, etc. 

I liked "Brokeback Mountain" a lot, and as I watched it, it sort of gave me a "The Straight Story" feeling, in that its presentation just has a "simple" quality to it.  Maybe "low-key" is a better term than "simple" in this case, I don't know.  "TSS" was about a guy going to see his dying brother, "BBM" was about two shepherd cowboys who fall in love, etc., so we're not talking about a conspiracy of corruption in the LAPD or a virus that will destroy the planet or whatever. 

And not that I have anything against movies where the "thing" involves a lot of money, power, lives at stake, etc.  I'm just saying that when the movie is just about something small and personal to the main character, etc., I'm reminded of the feeling I got when I watched, and was touched by, "The Straight Story". 

Now that I think about it, I can't remember ever shedding a tear at a movie (the last time it had happened was when I was watching "Barton Fink" in the early 90's, and not because the story was sad or whatever, I just teared-up a little because I thought the movie was generally so unique and well done), but after watching "TSS" for 60 minutes or so, how could you not tear-up a little when he tells the old guy at the bar his secret he's been carrying around since WWII or whatever?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: TrojanHorse on September 17, 2007, 02:17:59 PM
What separates "movie club" from "movies"

So far I don't see much separation?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 17, 2007, 02:34:58 PM
What separates "movie club" from "movies"

Neither the first rule nor the second rule of "movies" is "YOU. DO. NOT. TALK... about 'movies'..."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 17, 2007, 04:54:25 PM
(http://www.nndb.com/people/720/000024648/david-lynch.jpg)


"Lost Highway is the one I just didn't get the first time around,
and plan to rent again this fall, maybe around Halloween." 

Why rent it?

Why wait until Halloween?

Just look in the mirror...

The rearview mirror of your '68 Dodge Dart convertible...

Talk about Lost Highway, Bart...

But then, well, you still don't get it, do you?

Maybe Desdemona knows...  :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 17, 2007, 06:44:39 PM
(http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/hopper/street/hopper.nighthawks.jpg)


"The Gould reference was mostly in regard to the way Gould
would sit in these diners for hours on end (apparently) listening
into the conversations and composing radio shows from them. 
I think he eventually got a tape recorder and recorded these
conversations and mixed these pieces of conversation together
into compositions, working more with intonations and the color
of the sound, than the conversations themselves.  Lynch is
obviously a more visual artist..."

 

The more I read about Gould the more he sounds like Lynch.
Something is going on there that I can't wrap my mind around
it yet. Hoffman's music/performance background might give
some insights into how these two artists work...

“Sometime between two and three every morning Gould would
go to Fran's, a 24-hour diner a block away from his Toronto
apartment, sit in the same booth and order the same meal of scrambled eggs.”


http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-68-320-1673/arts_entertainment/glenn_gould/

“In 1964 Gould was awarded an honorary Doctor of Laws degree
from University of Toronto. In his speech to the graduating class,
Gould advised them not to put too much weight into what others
thought but to follow their own path and to be true to themselves.”


http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-68-320-1673/arts_entertainment/glenn_gould/





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 17, 2007, 06:56:44 PM
(http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/hopper/street/hopper.nighthawks.jpg)

What happened in that diner at night?

How do musicians, writers and directors
work / compose / think at night in diners?

Why diners? Is there something Hopper-esque
about night, diners and composition?

How much did Gould incorporate from these
nightly vigils...into his music?

“Gould stated that had he not been a musician,
he would have been a writer. He wrote music
criticism and espoused his philosophy of music
and art, in which he rejected what he deemed
banal in music composition and its consumption
by the public."


"Less well-known is Gould's work in radio
documentary. This work was, in part, the
result of Gould's long association with the
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, for which
he produced numerous television and radio
programs. Notable recordings include his
Solitude Trilogy, consisting of The Idea of
North, a meditation on Northern Canada
and its people; The Latecomers, about
Newfoundland; and The Quiet in the Land,
on Mennonites in Manitoba. All three use
a technique which Gould called "contrapuntal
radio," in which several people are heard
speaking at once, much like the voices
in a fugue.
"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Gould




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 17, 2007, 07:07:43 PM
(http://www.nndb.com/people/720/000024648/david-lynch.jpg)

Then, this brief note on avatars. It seems to me that
authoring avatars empowers the writer/artist/director --
as well as the meandering forumite -- with multiple
voices / views in regard to complex situations...

“In his liner notes and broadcasts, Gould created more than
two dozen alter egos for satirical, humorous, or didactic
purposes, permitting him to write hostile reviews or
incomprehensible commentaries on his own performances.
Probably the best known are "Karlheinz Klopweisser", the
English conductor "Sir Nigel Twitt-Thornwaite", and the
American pianist "Theodore Slutz".” —from the liner notes
to Bach Partitas, Preludes and Fugues, page 14:
Sony CD SM2K-52597.


________________________________


hoffman dizimas -- do you have these liner notes?  :)

could you link or post them for me?






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 17, 2007, 07:45:26 PM
Later Career: Pseudonyms

(http://www.collectionscanada.ca/obj/028010/f1/nlc003815-v6.jpg)

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/glenngould/028010-305.2-e.html

"Gould loved hamming and enjoyed assuming the
parts of a fictitious "dean of British conductors",
Sir Nigel Twitt-Thornwaite; a German critic, Dr.
Herbert von Hochmeister; and a New York cab
driver, Theodore Slutz of Brooklyn Heights. Other
alter egos were Dr. Karlheinz Klopweisser, a
German composer and critic; Sir Humphrey
Price-Davies, a "BBC-type pedagogue"; Duncan
Haig-Guinness, a Canadian radio producer; and
two psychiatrists, S.F. Lemming, M.D., and
Wolfgang von Krankmeister. Gould enjoyed
these creations, making tapes for which he
spoke "in character", writing fictitious interviews,
and even publishing certain articles under the
name "Herbert von Hochmeister". These
affectations permitted him to combine "his
enthusiasm for the literary craft, the musician's
ear for intricate cadences; and the ham's desire
for a good laugh
."


For example, Gould, Glenn. A Glenn Gould
Fantasy. Margaret Pacsu talks with Gould
and several of Gould's "friends" -- his fictional
characters Sir Nigel Twitt-Thornwaite, Dr.
Karlheinz Klopweisser, Theodore Slutz, and
others. Annotated typescript draft, July 1980

(http://www.collectionscanada.ca/obj/028010/f1/nlc003817-v5.jpg)

Gould as Karlheinz Klopweisser  :)

There's some heavy camping-it-up going on here.
These aren't just satirical writings; they seem to
be every bit performances just like Lynch...

Obviously Thirty Two Short Films About Glenn
Gould
(1993) is next...

Comparing and contrasting these two men could
very well illuminate them both...for minor peons
like me...  :)






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 17, 2007, 08:14:32 PM
Pugetopolis...I own the DVD, but one of my students has it.  I'll see if I can get it back this week and post them for you.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 17, 2007, 08:20:38 PM
http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2002/sept/gould/


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 17, 2007, 08:25:12 PM
I hope Lynch and Gould are not too similar.  That Gould had Asperger's syndrome is well known, but what is less known is that he was a paranoid schizophrenic.

Schizophrenia is unfortunately more prevalent among hyper-talented musicians than among the general population. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 17, 2007, 09:12:39 PM
"What separates "movie club" from "movies" "

One is a hospital for drag queens, and the other is a drag in general.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 17, 2007, 09:20:27 PM
"What separates "movie club" from "movies" blah blah blah..."


More "vibrant discussion" chit-chat from the Queen of Cool?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 17, 2007, 09:25:36 PM
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/6/6b/225px-Fran's_Restaurant.JPG)

Here's the diner frequented by Gould.  Fran's on College Avenue in Toronto.

"Sometime between two and three every morning Gould would go to Fran's, a 24-hour diner a block away from his Toronto apartment, sit in the same booth and order the same meal of scrambled eggs." (Source: CBC)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 17, 2007, 09:45:22 PM
(http://www.nndb.com/people/720/000024648/david-lynch.jpg)

I hope Lynch and Gould are not too similar.   

Yes, I read that wiki reference.

The problem is the diagnosis of Asperger syndrome
did not exist in Gould's lifetime. And psychiatrists have
dismissed this theory as post-mortem diagnosis based
on circumstantial evidence...

Personally, I don't like to get into that medical area
because I'm not qualified to make medical judgments.
Merely mentioning such things raises false flags like
jbottle's snarky comments above. Plus it's easy to
kick a dead person; after all they can't talk back can
they?

I'm following up on dzimas' suggestion which is
a good one I think, i.e., what is the context for such
writing, direction and performance art? Context is
important other than just mere personal opinions...
there's a reason for  film theory and criticism.

The Movie Club I see as a new kind of "performance
art"
with all the advances of the Internet at our fingertips.
Compare how we can discuss books and movies here --
with the limited and rather crude discussions we were
having over at the NYTimes. Think about it...

It's not that there's a difference between the Movie Club
and the Movie Forum -- the real difference is the chance
we have to diversify the art of conversation and to enter
into the performance art dialog that liquid silver has
provided us.

That's why I suggested this Movie Club be created...
to try something new and interesting.

Let's see if it works...  :)

_________________________________________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Gould#Eccentricities

"Gould's experience with psychoanalytic treatment and medication is documented. Dr. Timothy Maloney, the director of the Music Division of the National Library of Canada, has written about and discussed the possibility that Gould also had Asperger syndrome, an autism spectrum disorder. This idea was first tentatively proposed by Gould's biographer, Dr. Peter Ostwald, though Ostwald died before he could develop this theory. (The diagnosis of Asperger syndrome did not exist in Gould's lifetime.) Gould's eccentricities, such as rocking and humming, isolation and difficulty with social interaction, and the uncanny focus and technical ability he displayed in music-making, can be related to the symptoms displayed by persons with Asperger's, according to Maloney. Others, such as Dr. Helen Mesaros, a Toronto psychiatrist and author, dismiss this theory as post-mortem diagnosis based on circumstantial evidence. Mesaros wrote a rebuttal to Maloney's paper, suggesting that there are ample psychological and emotional explanations for Gould's eccentricities, and that it is not necessary to resort to neurological explanations."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 17, 2007, 10:11:33 PM
Commenting on Gould and Asperger's is not kicking the guy when he's dead.  It's not like Asperger's is a negative in music.  Lots of people in music are a bit off.   I have a friend who can't play unless she has a specific kind of deodorant.  Another has to wear blue.   Socializing before a performance: doesn't matter if it's your aunt who has been dead for fifty years and resurrected by the Lord just for this performance, no one thinks anything of people who aren't chatty.  What matters is the music.


But as far as the diagnosis, sure it didn't exist when Gould died, but it's not like this claim is being put out there about a guy from the stone age.  There are plenty of films, interviews, living friends and acquaintances to draw information from. 

My point is, I don't think Gould and Lynch are coming from the same place.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 17, 2007, 10:17:16 PM
On the Toronto psychiatrist you mentioned, Dr. Helen Mesaros...gotta put it in perspective.  Torontoans think Gould was a god. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 17, 2007, 10:43:05 PM
On the Toronto psychiatrist you mentioned, Dr. Helen Mesaros...
gotta put it in perspective.  Torontoans think Gould was a god. 

Whatever you say...  :)

"Death's at the bottom of everything,
Martins. Leave death to the professionals."
--Calloway, The Third Man (1949


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 17, 2007, 10:51:28 PM
I gotta learn to let these things go, but I sort of have a passion for Mr. Gould.  ::)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 18, 2007, 01:12:39 AM
I think what sets Lynch apart from most film directors is his strong theatrical sense.  He sets up highly dramatic scenes that could just as easily be done on stage as on screen.  Dialog is an important part of his movies, and he forces you to follow what his characters are saying (even when speaking nonsense) because so much of the plot hinges on it.  Most movies today need little more than an MTV sound track.  But what fascinates me most about Lynch is how he is able to transport an everyday scene into the surreal such as the opening scene in Blue Velvet where the father very nearly gets strangled by a garden hose.  I wouldn't go so far as to call him surreal, although I imagine he has a passion for Dali, who did those wonderful film sets for Spellbound.  Yet, Lynch can turn right around and do something like Straight Story.

He is not hermetic as was the case with Gould, who seemed to live in his own private world with limited contact with the outside.  I draw references more to the film that was made of Gould rather than Gould himself, since about all I know of Gould is what I saw in 32 Short Films.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 18, 2007, 02:10:38 AM
dzimas,

I recall listening to Gould perform, egads, back when I was a student in my youth, and he was not very old himself. Yet, I sometimes think people confuse him with someone like Jay Gould who if not exactly hermetic was hermetic in his own way.  The problem was you had to have someone like that in your own life, who dropped in at your house at inconvenient moments, and had strange schemes that included  you  whether you knew it or not.  My own personal nemesis was a guy who was buying a Selectric on credit and then was going to default but they would not be able to reclaim it if they could not find it, so he wanted to hide it with me.   I had to actually call his nice Jewish mother, business woman and charity maven that she was and tell her the plot (of the story I really should write some day), before I became the receivor of stolen property. 

This kind of conduct makes Glenn Gould look like a genius, which he probably was.  People in that strata of music are allowed to be and should be expected to be "eccentric" was the word we had for it.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 18, 2007, 02:52:35 AM
Barton, this is really Good.

barton,Reply #1807 Creative Writing,  This was excellently funny! I particularly liked the line, "Thomas Wolfe, thank the good Lord that you didn't wear white suits and call yourself Tom!* (you NEVER could have gone home again, if you'd pulled that kind of pretentious crap!)
...their Duboises blanched by the unremitting kindness of pious strangers!

WHICH reminds me, there is only one Tom. He wrote about St.Louis in the great Depression, before he went on to New Orleans, by the time he got to New York for awhile, a good deal heftier, he died by swallowing a beer bottle cap.

Okay, so now if I was casting director, that asterisk up there, what immediately comes to mind is that I would want Morgan Freeman as Tom, going "Home" in that Bonfire of all Vanities white suit; and his sister looking scant-wise across the room at him, while his mother tries to suppress the urge of kicking him down the front porch steps so he scuffs his trousers with dust from the street, just for showing up like that in some Midwestern neighborhood.  She thinks of how she has sacrificed for this, one more bed pan after another, so he could have the same things all the white boys had away at school, in a town where they didn't even know how to cut his hair in the white barber shops. .

Of course, in the long run, way after she is gone, he has cross-over audiences and tries to look a lot less pretentious, besides you run through a lot more sweated up clothes, and you stand around for hours after a show, when you have cleaned up and changed, before you can get in the limo-stretch and get to bed in some utterly costly hotel for the peace and quiet.  To some, it seems like success. Comparatively, it is, rather than the life of some good ole boy with a decrepit big white house in the swamp land, where you hear the loon call, and the moss drifts  menacingly, otherworldly and your Frenchmen's Conjure man brings you draughts and invents cocktails especially for you, concoctions that do wonders for you, miracles that keep you alive , out there on Bayou St.Jean.

Which brings to mind, someone was asking about nitrous oxide the other day, in terms of Lynch, the film maker that is, not quite so overacted as Dennis Hopper made it look as he made it out to be, since matter of fact it is just one of those things that seems to make one think it extends your sexual performance,in the back seat of a car between clubs late at night, not the sex in the back seat, hardly, but rather the poppers between music scenes.  It is a challenge to ignore this activity when your husband is back there with your best friend. Not nearly as graftifying as --would you call it a back door man, if it is his back door down your alley door to door, where he sits surveying the candy apple enamel finish he has done to the kitchen stove,and coking up one more time. For a woman, it is quite un-necessary to bother to partake since  you get the same effects, the same benefits while he makes love to you,and was like Brad Pitt today before Brad Pitt was. In a closed society of 3000 artists at minimum, your scores are relatively equivalent with a lot of options.

It's late, time to go home, and get some sleep.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 18, 2007, 10:55:58 AM
Thanks, Maddie.  Sounds like you've just been catching up with the Cremative Writing forum.

Puget Sound-Off-olis:  I think my problem with Lost Highway is simple brain bleed:  i.e. seen too many films, and it's been too long since I've seen that particular one.  All I can retrieve at this point is Robert Blake with geisha powder in an empty shack, Bill Pullman staring down the road, and Balthazar Getty switching bodies.  That's the problem with surrealism for me -- a bunch of nifty set pieces that are very good and very haunting, but the shortage of narrative glue means that, in ten years, I may lose any sense of what the film was showing me.  Kind of like (how a propos) a dream that has evaporated from your head by noon the next day.  Not that this is a fault of surrealism, perhaps just a prescription for regular re-watching (though I can't manage your Eraserhead Every Night schedule....:-)





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 18, 2007, 11:48:54 AM
I think what sets Lynch apart from most film directors is his strong theatrical sense.  He sets up highly dramatic scenes that could just as easily be done on stage as on screen.  Dialog is an important part of his movies, and he forces you to follow what his characters are saying (even when speaking nonsense) because so much of the plot hinges on it.  Most movies today need little more than an MTV sound track.  But what fascinates me most about Lynch is how he is able to transport an everyday scene into the surreal such as the opening scene in Blue Velvet where the father very nearly gets strangled by a garden hose.  I wouldn't go so far as to call him surreal, although I imagine he has a passion for Dali, who did those wonderful film sets for Spellbound.  Yet, Lynch can turn right around and do something like Straight Story.

Yes...and what comes to mind is also the opening scene from "Wild At Heart"...the stabbing at the club.  The sense of theatre, dialog...and the music that Lynch selected for this scene tells us right off quite a bit of what we need to know about Sailor.  Then a few scenes later...Lulu gives Sailor his snakeskin coat....a "symbol of his commitment to individuality."

Most people when they comment on Lynch, bring up his weirdness.  But clearly this is a man who likes to have fun.  If you ever get a chance, definitly see the short "The Cowboy and the Frenchman."  Lynch comments that this arose after a lunch with a French producer who was putting together a series called "What I think of the French."  (I'm sorry, the producer's name escapes me.)  Lynch told producer he had no ideas for that project, but on the drive home, he began to think.....Later he called the producer and told him what he had come up with.  The producer commented, "Two cliches in one."    This lead the "The Cowboy"....corny, cliched, slapstick and above all, 25 minutes of pure FUN.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 18, 2007, 01:07:48 PM

"...though I can't manage your
Eraserhead Every Night schedule.... :-)"


Henry Spencer

Neither can I, man—
Surely it's just a phase I'm going thru...

For some reason, I identify with—
Loser Henry Spencer in Eraserhead

Surfing the Apocalypse—
The way he does so bravely…

Coming home from work—
Thru the industrial wasteland…

All the freaks, creeps, weirdos—
And fucking fascist pigs…

Spencer isn’t jaded yet—
Not completely hardcore cynical…

But he’s getting there fast—
Just like yours truly…….

Sterling Hayden (Dix Handley)—
That’s where I’m heading, man…

Neo-noir too vanilla, baby—
You know what I mean…?

Just gimme straight noir…
Like Asphalt Jungle (1950)…

Like Hayden the Rat—
Under the Viaduct……….












Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 18, 2007, 01:25:15 PM

"The producer commented, "Two cliches in one."
This lead the "The Cowboy"....corny, cliched,
slapstick and above all, 25 minutes of pure FUN.



Daniel Toscan du Plantier the producer...

Harry Dean Stanton the droll deaf cowboy...

BTW I got a Lynch DVD called Dynamic: 01 (2006)...
some more short films and stuff:

The Darkened Room
Boat
lamp
Out Yonder -- Neighbor Boy
Industrial Soundscape
Bug Crawls
Intervalometer Experiments
Member Questions


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 18, 2007, 07:56:28 PM
I'm not familiar with any of the films on Dynamic: 01.  Is this a good buy?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 18, 2007, 08:04:08 PM
I'm reworking my way through the Lynch works I have, Blue Velvet, The Elephant Man, Dune, Mulholland Drive, Eraserhead, Inland Empire.  I don't own Twin Peaks, but I see there will be a release of Seasons 1 and 2 and the Pilot at the end of October. 

Also recently watched Wild at Heart, which many Lynch fans seem to hate.  I don't quite know why.  Nicolas Cage delivers some great one liners here, in deadpan style.  And there is something to be said for Lynch's unique take on The Wizard of Oz.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 18, 2007, 11:07:47 PM
I'll be watching Lynch's Dynamic 01 tonight. I'll let you know what's it like.

I've got all the Lynch movies you've got except Inland Empire...

Thank you and good night...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 18, 2007, 11:25:00 PM
I don't feel the Lynchian disappointment that is inherent in his films that invariably reference the supposed idyllism of his 50's childhood and subsequent disillusionment, and don't fault him for exploiting the difference between his midwestern roots and his evident avant-garde leanings during the 1980's, but I think he tends to diffuse when we would like to be enlightened, unless you are but another of his peers placing a crown on his bowed head.  Andy Warhol was from the sticks, too.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 18, 2007, 11:46:50 PM
Hoffman, I have the UK edition of the first season of Twin Peaks which includes the pilot, not found in earlier American editions, which makes the new Gold Box Edition a must for Twin Peaks fans.  The Second Season, which I bought through the US, wasn't very nicely put together, so I hope they make up for it in this new edition.  The thing is that Twin Peaks is as much or more a creation of Mark Frost.  You see Lynch's stamp on it, but he pretty much parted ways when ABC insisted that he and Frost resolve the death of Laura Palmer.  Lynch correctly surmised the resolving the death would kill the suspense and the show.  He wanted the death to drift into the background as more and more characters came to the forefront with new storylines, replacing the old.  I think this was the reason for the success of X-Files, which left so much hanging that it held its audience for 7 good years.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 18, 2007, 11:49:25 PM
So the reason that Twin Peaks was cancelled after one season is why the X-Files lasted 7. 

Huh.

You might want to look into who was selling more cars.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 19, 2007, 02:15:02 AM
I guess your memory has been dimmed from too much alcohol, jbottle, but Twin Peaks ran for two seasons and was the hottest show on television before the Laura Palmer case was resolved,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_Peaks

Read the part about "Declining Ratings." The whole Windom Earle thing was a bit too much for television audiences I think, as it entered into the world of macabre and extra-terrestial theories a little too deeply, with a little too much self-reflection for most people's tastes.  David Duchovny made a wonderful guest appearance as the cross-dressing Agent Denise Bryson.  But, that was a hell of an ending with Agent Cooper staring into the mirror. Too bad HBO wasn't doing television series then.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 19, 2007, 02:32:33 AM
Oh, and X-Files last 9 seasons, but Duchovny said au revoir after 7 and Gillian said no more after 8.   Great series during its peak years.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 19, 2007, 10:33:44 AM
Who is David Duchovny?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 19, 2007, 03:41:47 PM
"I guess your memory has been dimmed from too much alcohol..."

So when you thought X-Files was seven seasons when it was nine your memory was dimmed because of it doesn't matter?  Same way "Twin Peaks."

I don't buy that it was a hit comercially, but anyway, I was like 15 when it came out and was chasing skirt and slamming brews, I knew who Laura Palmer was, but I wasn't home much at 9PM in those days, that's right, because I was a badass getting my swerve on.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 20, 2007, 12:15:13 AM
J, I said 7 good years, but then I guess you don't read posts that closely.  Rather, it seems you were too young to remember much about Twin Peaks and the mania that formed around it.  It was kind of funny, really, because the show had its fair share of haters, preferring the then popular Thirtysomething.  Anyway, enough said.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 20, 2007, 03:11:03 AM
Who is David Duchovny?

I had been wondering who that was lurking in your avatar.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on September 20, 2007, 09:34:53 AM
It was kind of funny, really, because the show had its fair share of haters, preferring the then popular Thirtysomething.

Hey, hey -- I disliked both those shows. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 20, 2007, 10:56:53 AM
Twin Peaks was on the air in the years our tv sat in the closet (our children were quite young and we just didn't want them relating to the tube early in life, too much, and we were fairly busy ourselves...).  I've seen tapes of some shows and didn't find it all that compelling -- much prefer Lynch's film efforts.

30 Something didn't hold my interest, for some reason.  I felt like they were living in a sort of bubble, and a self-absorbed one at that.

The X-Files, however....don't get me started on the raving.  Brilliant, allegorical, mythical, a postmodern triumph that never spoonfed you for one freaking moment.  Life is a kiss interrupted by an alien beesting.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 20, 2007, 02:59:03 PM
The X-Files, however....don't get me started on the raving.  Brilliant, allegorical, mythical, a postmodern triumph that never spoonfed you for one freaking moment.  Life is a kiss interrupted by an alien beesting.

I never saw the TV show but I liked the movie.  Two questions, however:  Are Duchovny and Gillian Anderson not FBI Agents?  If not, then disregard this post.  If they are, then read on, if you like...

Duchovny gets bonked on the head and ends up in the hospital.  While in the hospital, he notices that he is being watched surreptitiously by a shady-looking character hanging out in the hospital corridors, presumably a bad guy, etc.  Duchovny enlists some help from his nerdy friends, and they sneak him out of the hospital, so as to avoid contact with the bad guy.

Here's the 2nd question - if you're an FBI Agent, then why are you sneaking away from anybody?  If you're in the hospital because you got bonked on the head, and you see someone who you think might be in league with those who bonked you on the head, why don't you just take out your gun and badge and arrest the guy?  Or at least question the guy, like WTF, man, what's up with me getting bonked on the head, you better tell me or I'll throw you in jail, etc?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 20, 2007, 05:26:54 PM
No, man, you always put on the white coat and grab a file out of the nearest door and use it to hide your face no matter who is after you, until you find the service elevator.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 20, 2007, 05:41:15 PM
No, man, you always put on the white coat and grab a file out of the nearest door and use it to hide your face no matter who is after you, until you find the service elevator.

Sure, I do, but I'm not an FBI Agent.  If I was (or were or whatever) was an FBI Agent and someone was tailing me, I'd arrest/shoot the guy, no?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 20, 2007, 09:17:47 PM
But if you are part of one of the like, secret purpose cells, AN ORGANIZATION WITHIN AN ORGANIZATION, then, you pull the tubes out of your arms and if you can't tie the sheets together you pose as a doctor and put the pillows like you're fast asleep.  Then when you pass the nurse and she gets a weird look on her face like "I can't quite place that doctor," and then shakes her head like "whatever," you have time to find the service elevator, or if you see the main elevator going from floor one to the floor you're on you may take the stairs, but if, as you start down, you see that they are coming up, you have to go to the roof and then of course go rooftop to rooftop or look for a ventilation shaft.  That's how I would play it, but that's me.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 20, 2007, 10:48:16 PM
Auteur?  BF festival??

http://www.avclub.com/content/interview/william_friedkin


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 20, 2007, 11:51:21 PM
I loved Twin Peaks.  I loved X-Files too.  But, what made TP compelling was how well the story wrapped itself around the death of Laura Palmer for 15 episodes or so, until ABC demanded it be resolved.  The characters were well wrought, and as hoffman said upstream, it had that sense of revisiting adolesence without the benefit of hindsight, in contrast to a movie like Peggy Sue Got Married.  All the characters seemed pretty clueless to what was going on, especially in the Windom Earle segments that became a little too dark and brooding, not to mention wildly sadistic, as well as a bit silly with Windom Earle able to move so freely in their midst with those awful disguises.  But, it seemed Frost was having his fun with the theme, with Lynch now only making guest appearances as the hard-of-hearing Agent Gordon Cole.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Detective_Winslow on September 21, 2007, 02:28:07 AM
Twin Peaks is so gay.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 21, 2007, 02:33:04 AM
Got nothing better to say, you cheap gumshoe.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 21, 2007, 10:41:54 AM
Oily --

I can't imagine explaining one X-Files movie to you without you watching the series first.  There's a vast wealth of backstory and various ongoing story lines that would help make more sense of the hospital scene you described.  Many single episodes are far better than the movie.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 22, 2007, 12:59:41 PM
Apparently George Clooney was on location in Manhattan but took a motorcycle ride with a new sweetie and they were sideswiped in New Jersey where she gets a broken foot while Clooney suffered something known as a hairline fracture of a rib.   Having suffered one of those myself but not a rib, the coccyx, when I got off a horse as rapidly as possible, I stared at what Reuters had reported because one of the beauties of the English language are the tricks it can play on your mind and your comprehension when you find a short description repeated under a photo of poor suffering George(to convey that they go through their back-log and pick one  that will suffice, something with a frantic look in the eyes)but now it says he is suffering from a hairline fracture and immediately you look at his hairline to see if he has all his hair.

Beauties of speaking English, literally.  The least they could do is stuff a hyphen in there and let it come out hairline-fracture, break it up a little so you enquire what did he fracture?  We don't have that wrap around nicety of Hindi which allows Indians to extrapolate in elegant mantra as definitively and poetically as they want to be.  Somehow that gift was transfered to the German as an Indo-European language speaker; but somewhere between German and the Latin-language-derived -French, we lost it when we began to speak English.  We suffer from hairline fractures


Now, about that sideswipe, do you think it was one of those oilcanboyd/jbottle agents within a group from the government tailing George, or were they just ribbing him, for  making the kind of movies that he does like Syriana; and, Good Night and Good Luck   ?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on September 22, 2007, 11:15:29 PM
madupont, you are too funny!  All I can think of is "No -- not the hairline!  My career is doomed. Noooooo......"  (And I remember when he had the really great hair.)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 22, 2007, 11:35:04 PM
dzimas hoffman barton

Recently watched David Lynch’s Dynamic (©2005 Absurda)

Interesting filmic sculptures:

1. “Industrial Soundscape”

Filmed during Eraserhead—basically small Photoshop piece centered around Lynch’s love for early 20th century industrial objects seen as artwork / sets for his films.

2’ “Intervalometer Experiments”

Three stop-action sets (countryside, stairs, window scenery)—the shadows cast during the day across landscapes, stairs and looking out a living room window at trees—magically changing in the eye of the moviegoer at time goes by.

3. Finished Lynch’s book Catching the Big Fish (Penguin, 2006).Now reading Frank Miller’s Hell and Back—comparing graphic novel with the movie Sin City.

 :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 24, 2007, 04:47:06 AM
I haven't seen Dynamic, so I can't respond in this regard.

I have Miller's graphic novels as well, and found Sin City to be a bit too faithful in its interpretations, although stylistically I enjoyed the movie.  It reminded me a bit of Heavy Metal which was done years ago, based on the then popular comic books, although Sin City owes more to the film noir of the 40's.  As comic books for adults, they are a bit too flat for my tastes.  I thought Miller did a much better job with Batman in his Dark Knight series, creating much more complexity in his characters, which is funny since they were superhero prototypes.  Batman had been conceived as an anti-hero before the television series was made, which was what Miller was evoking back to in his aged Batman.  Seems Burton drew as much or more from the television series than he did Miller's graphic novel.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 24, 2007, 05:46:52 AM

As comic books for adults, they are a bit too flat for my tastes. 


Do you think there's a shift in reading habits going on with
the Japanese anime and Miller / graphic novel influence? I
asked myself that question after seen the "rotoscoping
technique" in A Scanner Darkly (2006). It reminded me of
like you say an "adult comic book" which was both, well,
interesting for awhile but it got old quick. The shift from
black and white to technicolor in Wizard of Oz (1939)
was better I thought in terms of surprize. Maybe a little bit
of rotoscoping goes a long way. The you-tube push on the
internet seems to me another indication that young readers
are increasingly becoming image-conscious, e.g. music
videos etc.

I find this interface interesting...like when we, well,
were discussing Visconti's The Leopard v. the
Lampedusa one...

...back in the NYTimes readers group. Back then it was, well,
not de rigueur to do that.  :) But we did anyway and
the book / movie thing was interesting, especially with two
Italian aristocrat artists like Visconti and Lampedusa. I
could see how they played off each other...in terms of
image, text, dialog and just plain enjoyment of the, what
should I call it, the attention two artists gave to the
style and spirit of the Italian risarcimento... very
haunting I thought the way time is portrayed changing
in the eyes of both Princes...




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 24, 2007, 09:23:47 AM
Princes think like that. But de Lampedusa makes fun of himself for philosophically being able to do that, it has something to do with the "Education of Princes". Dzimas will know what I mean, as he gave me some concise "digest" on this when I asked while he was reading Kevin Philips,American Dynasty; which provides a certain irony when you start thinking about the education the GW Bush could have had ( but then there is indication in every way that he absorbed within his dynasty that classic education of Italian princes ).

Lampedusa was however not around to allow Visconti to play off of him. The war pretty much killed him, he had to leave home to keep from being suckered into Fascism, live with his marital partner removed from his environment just one jump ahead of the Nazis(which just goes to prove in some way that it is nice to have one of those in time of war especially if they live in a foreign country where you can catch your breath before the next flight), the allies inadvertently destroyed his physical house during the bombing of Sicily so there was nothing to which to go back but the rubble of a once aristocratic life but that in a nutshell is what Fascism achieves starting from the top down until the "little man" catches on and says nothing to alienate anybody.

Lampedusa never even got to see his novel in print or know that it would be.  It was his editor who is considered the epitome of being able to describe what it is like to nobly try to survive fascism and merely indicate in the margins the temperament of those who enjoy being suckered into being  among the insiders. This was apparent in the sexual temptations of adolescence, the choices one makes based on physical attraction, In the Garden of the Finzi Continis.

As I recall there really was no "we" about it, as I chose to  discuss how Bassanio made this book possible and therefore the inevitable movie; none of which Lampedusa could have known about as he was already dead. I chose to indicate the  Risorgimento led to the period that destroyed Lampedusa and "His Prince" who was himself although he depicted an ancestor experiencing the risorgimento because he saw it coming.  It was his(the Prince's) young favorite, catered to somewhat spoiled prideful heir of the insignia of the Leopards who went with it, donned the uniform, etc.  It is interesting how this came about playing out Europe's history, the guy we know as el portenito can probably tell you all about it, with patience, as his family emigrated.

So in some ways, anime, reflects this younger taste. I think, considering it in its origins indicates a simplified way of communicating to a younger faction who is in process of rebelling against a prior educational standard. It becomes necessary when you want to enlist the masses who are young, while they are still formative, and you are the power behind the "throne". My niece's husband draws these out in LA for one or another studio,and he is the sole carrier of his family line, no grandparents, no uncles,no aunts, when his parents survived by getting out of Rumania. The other family members were destroyed in the Holocaust.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: elportenito1 on September 24, 2007, 10:08:11 AM
"Love in the Time of Cholera, barton, is coming out in November."




Read the bloody book instead, its what you're supossed to do in the first place anyway, for gorsake!!!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 24, 2007, 10:55:39 AM
(http://www.amletolab.net/Portals/0/immagini/visconti.gif)


Lampedusa never even got to see his novel
in print or know that it would be.
 



Yes, Lampedusa...

We read his novel, watched the Criterion film...

One of the high points of our NYTimes discussions...

How ironic, my dear...talking about him like this today...

But the truth is that Lampedusa's novel lives...

It lived for Visconti...it lived for us too...

At least for me it did...and still does...

Even for me...the lowliest of the low...

All great books and films do that...don't you think?

The challenge for Visconti it seems to me...

Was the same challenge Carol Reed had...

Collaborating with Graham Greene...

To create the greatest film ever made...

The Third Man...

At least Whiskey and I think so...

This collaboration between a writer and a director...

What is it? How does it work?

How did Visconti do it?

I really don't know...

But without sounding too decadent...

May I suggest Alain Delon...

Played a seminal role, my dear...  :)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 24, 2007, 10:58:33 AM
"This collaboration between a writer and a director..."

Boy! did you pick the right word.  Collaborator, anyone?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 24, 2007, 11:10:58 AM
(http://www.moviecrazed.com/images/berger.jpg)

Oh yes...and Helmut Berger as well.

The Damned (1969)...

The true transformation of a dark prince...

Into a nazi monster...





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 24, 2007, 11:56:26 AM
(http://www.aolcdn.com/aimpgs_horror_acd/pans-labyrinth-400a0320.jpg)

BTW fellow cineastes—

Hoffman thinks that Pan’s Labyrinth is an excellent movie…

The above pic shows me and Hoffman discussing the movie.  :)

The Spanish fascist milieu couldn’t be more politically correct…

And the Borges sets simply ooze with magic realism…

Perhaps it’s time to pick a movie now…

And have some fun… hmmm?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 24, 2007, 12:10:04 PM
PeeWee's Big Adventure!



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 24, 2007, 12:32:16 PM
Please Barton...stop it.

You know I can't stand snarky one-liners...  :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 24, 2007, 12:34:15 PM
"Love in the Time of Cholera, barton, is coming out in November."




Read the bloody book instead, its what you're supossed to do in the first place anyway, for gorsake!!!

"There's a MOVIE?????"

- Samuel "Mayday"  Malone


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: ponderosa on September 24, 2007, 12:47:50 PM
 ;D


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: ponderosa on September 24, 2007, 12:49:52 PM
"Love in the Time of Cholera, barton, is coming out in November."




Read the bloody book instead, its what you're supossed to do in the first place anyway, for gorsake!!!

"It was inevitable..."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 24, 2007, 12:52:39 PM
I definitely go for Pan's Labyrinth.   


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 24, 2007, 01:27:35 PM

PeeWee's Big Adventure!


Besides...I loved PeeWee's Big Adventure...



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 24, 2007, 02:21:54 PM
(http://www.monstersandcritics.com/image.php?file=downloads/downloads/movies/panslabyrinth_1/images/group2/12.jpg&width=500)

I like the way Pan begins...

Carmen and Ofelia in an elegant limousine, being driven to Vidal's embattled outpost...

And I mean elegant...I can just see Franco tooling around in a fleet of those sleek limos...

And then the extraordinary Spanish actor Sergi Lopez as the nefariously evil Captain Vidal...

Rarely have I seen anything on the screen ooze Evil like Lopez...plus he's very goodlooking too...

The Pan dvd I have has 2 dvd's in it; I assume the Spanish one has the same scenes?

I'm going to watch the Spanish one this afternoon; just to get a feel

for the Franco-fascist milieu.  :)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 24, 2007, 02:45:16 PM
(http://www.monstersandcritics.com/image.php?file=downloads/downloads/movies/panslabyrinth_1/images/group2/12.jpg&width=500)

"Pan's Labyrinth is a movie about a girl
who gives birth to herself into the world
she believes in,' del Toro continues."


The review quotes del Toro as saying that,
"A maze is a place where you get lost. But a
labyrinth is essentially a place of transit,
an ethical, moral transit to one inevitable
center."


http://hecatedemetersdatter.blogspot.com/2006/12/pans-labyrinth.html


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 24, 2007, 06:57:14 PM
I've seen two of del Toro's films, Pan's Labyrinth and The Devil's Backbone.  In both of these, del Toro takes a view of history that I find fascinating.  He takes a single moment in time, the Spanish Civil War, and embues it with the feeling of timelessness.  He consciously chooses to use images of violence, but then blends these with a fantastical quality.  He has said that his approach to his genre, horror/fantasy, is to understand that to be successful, horror must have a quality of realism about it, but must also lack realism to make it bearable.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 24, 2007, 07:16:09 PM
You mean, Picasso's Guernica wasn't good enough for you?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 24, 2007, 07:17:01 PM
re:#156

 mileiu ?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 24, 2007, 09:11:35 PM
You mean, Picasso's Guernica wasn't good enough for you?

Sort of lacking a life of the mind, aren't you.....how very sad.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 24, 2007, 09:28:45 PM
(http://www.monstersandcritics.com/image.php?file=downloads/downloads/movies/panslabyrinth_1/images/group2/12.jpg&width=500)


I'm going to watch the Spanish one this afternoon; just to get a feel

for the Franco-fascist milieu. :)



Ah, the fascist milieu...

charming isn't it, Hoffman?

Yes, this is how it starts...

As Bette Davis said...

"Fasten your seatbelts...

It's going to be a bumpy night..."



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 24, 2007, 09:40:16 PM
(http://www.monstersandcritics.com/image.php?file=downloads/downloads/movies/panslabyrinth_1/images/group2/12.jpg&width=500)


I've seen two of del Toro's films, Pan's Labyrinth and The Devil's Backbone.  In both of these, del Toro takes a view of history that I find fascinating.  He takes a single moment in time, the Spanish Civil War, and embues it with the feeling of timelessness. 


What was The Devil's Backbone like...compared with Pan's Labyrinth?

I enjoyed our Faulkner discussion over in Fiction...especially about the magic moment...

It seems to exist in magic realism, fairy tales and novels like Absalom, Absalom...

The magic moment comes to life during several key scenes in Pan's Labyrinth?

Like the chalk opening a magic door in the wall and floors of the fascist outpost...   :)







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 24, 2007, 10:13:12 PM
Devil's Backbone is more of a ghost story than PL, but it also has to do with the meek gaining power.  Both use the idea of a lost princess/prince, but to very different effect.

The story is about an orphaned boy who is sent to a boarding school after his father is killed in the war.  The moment of magic first occurs when a ghost visits his dorm and pours the orphans' drinking water out. 

I was drawn to del Toro's atypical depiction of fairies in PL.  Maybe that depiction took us to that moment later in the film when we began to wonder who to trust?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 24, 2007, 10:46:56 PM
(http://www.monstersandcritics.com/image.php?file=downloads/downloads/movies/panslabyrinth_1/images/group2/12.jpg&width=500)

Ah, you mean fairies are unreliable narrators?

You can say that again...the most unreliable narrators that ever existed...

Except maybe for Nabokov, Borges, Marquez, Lynch, Visconti...

...and that nefarious Professor Lodz in Carnivàle.

Yes, my dear, magic has to be realistic to be real...

Magic realism rules.







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 25, 2007, 05:33:48 AM
You all have convinced me to check out Pan's Labyrinth.

In regard to unreliable narrators, I get no end of fascination in Russian novels from Dead Souls to The Master and Margarita, which was faithfully translated into a television mini series last year by a Russian filmmaker, but unfortunately not with very satisfying results,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0403783/

Bortko's interpretation of The Heart of a Dog was much better,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096126/

Bortko had Perestroika to thank for being able to make a movie like this.  Well worth watching if you can find an English-subtitled edition.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 25, 2007, 06:39:52 PM
(http://www.aolcdn.com/aimpgs_horror_acd/pans-labyrinth-400a0320.jpg)


Del Toro is a good study of mythology.  The scene from the photo has a bit of Persephone about it.  Foreshadowing?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 25, 2007, 06:40:59 PM
Dzimas...where do you get your movies?  Video shop or do you have to wait for mail?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 25, 2007, 09:14:26 PM
"Pan's Labyrinth" would make a good double-feature night with GDT's great ghost story, "The Devil's Backbone".

They're both set in the Spanish Civil War or whatever, and both feature fatherless child protagonists and the supernatural (imaginary and otherwise), and like all of GDT's movies, they look and sound great and as you're watching, it's obvious that the guy is an artist or something. 

Another common element I thought was interesting was that the bad guy is a father figure for the protagonist, and has dashing/heroic good-looks, so that you get the feeling the guy could have been a hero if he wasn't evil/flawed, etc., which sort of adds to the tragedy of the whole thing.     

Anyways, mark it "Pan's Labyrinth" for my favorite movie of 2007 (if it counts as 2007... 2007 was when I saw it in a theater, but it may have been released in 2006), just ahead of "Zodiac" and "The Lives of Others".  Of course, I expect "NCFOM" to take over the top spot come November 21, which will make for a very strong Top-4, right up there with the best years of the early 90's. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on September 25, 2007, 11:25:58 PM
Quote
In regard to unreliable narrators, I get no end of fascination in Russian novels from Dead Souls to The Master and Margarita, which was faithfully translated into a television mini series last year by a Russian filmmaker, but unfortunately not with very satisfying results,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0403783/

Bortko's interpretation of The Heart of a Dog was much better,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096126/

Bortko had Perestroika to thank for being able to make a movie like this.  Well worth watching if you can find an English-subtitled edition.

This really takes me back--I loved The Master and the Margarita--sorry the film wasn't up to the book, haven't read or seen the second.  What do you recommend--book first then movie?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 25, 2007, 11:51:03 PM
Dzimas...where do you get your movies?  Video shop or do you have to wait for mail?

It depends.  Russian movies no problem.  But, the kind of American and European films I like I have to buy, so now I have quite a DVD collection, although every once in awhile I find a surprise in the local video store.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 26, 2007, 02:41:45 AM
NYT - I would skip on the tv series.  At 10 parts and stretching out for around 10 hours it is too much for most people to endure.  There was also a bad Yugoslavian-Italian joint project done in the 1970s that is even worse.  However, I've seen a great Lithuanian theatrical production here in Vilnius of The Master and Margarita, which got rave reviews from Russian critics.  The key in Korsunovas' case was taking salient parts from the book and translating them to the screen, which is better really since Bulgakov was a playwright and wrote his novels with a highly theatrical sense.  Bortko was simply too faithfull, literally translating the novel scene by scene into film, which really surprised me, since he is a very creative director as witnessed in The Heart of the Dog.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 26, 2007, 04:54:48 AM
Hoffman, amazon.co.uk has some good deals on DVD's.  Picked up Antonioni's The Passenger the other day for 5 pounds.  Recently, I've become intrigued in Eastern Europe stop-action animation, such as the works of Jan Svankmajer,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5wHMgTPF-s&mode=related&search=

I also found Blood Tea and Red String (an American production) fascinating,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR2zL-qErX8


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 26, 2007, 09:32:08 AM
]
Hoffman, amazon.co.uk has some good deals on DVD's.  Picked up Antonioni's The Passenger the other day for 5 pounds.  Recently, I've become intrigued in Eastern Europe stop-action animation, such as the works of Jan Svankmajer,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5wHMgTPF-s&mode=related&search=

I also found Blood Tea and Red String (an American production) fascinating,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR2zL-qErX8



Dzimas, know you are not going to believe this but that --desk.  My computer is on it, sans drawer, because mine is well-polished and I've been taking care of it as a five leg table(meaning I can use it whole as a table or separate it) ever since I found it thrown out at a Dutch farmhouse and knew it had to be preserved and not discarded.  (I've lost too much old german-american furniture from earlier eras).

Anyway, when Svankmajer gets Alice to open that shallow drawer, I see where your interest derives.  Other than that I'm not too taken with his little girl, admittedly the fantasy life of little girls begins early, in fact early-readers are fast learners;and the stop-action is a little clunky.

Therefore, I'm all in favor of Christiana Cegavska's richer imagination in iconography. I had a Polish-American friend who became quite into the packets and gobs that may be within packets for larger-scale installations after another artist named Toman(although she may have gone back to her maiden name) did more scaled minutely sewing box-size packets that appear purposeful to the fantasy-mind, copies of little girl play at adult activities,although they are admittedly purposeless, nonfunctional except aesthetically.  So going on into the cinematic possibilities as was bound to happen, and does in cycles, among artists was inevitable. I forgot to look at the dates on these you-tubies.

The  Red String skein of this production is something that we used to entertain ourselves with as taught to us by our grandmothers on the deep side of the family, known as cats-cradle, a name that gives itself away. I adapted the kitchen rocking chairs for faux spinning wheels from the beginning. Can tell you right now, flax with the beautiful blue flowers was not a very important crop in our neck of the woods which was my grandmother's territory.

Will have to look closer and repetitively at Cegavska's production's. Not that they are complex but they have infinite "Collective Unconscious" connotations first of which was the cannibalizing tendency of the evolution of species in the game of Social Order.




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 26, 2007, 09:59:06 AM
Actually it was the rabbit coming to life that captured my attention.  Svankmajer has been a big influence on Gilliam, Burton, the Quay Brothers and others.  Nice box set of his early work:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009KA8JY/ref=s9_asin_title_1/105-5791205-4542015?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0Z3GM7JZC8XCF3NP4G48&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=278240301&pf_rd_i=507846


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 26, 2007, 10:00:14 AM
Oilcanboyd23,re:#169

First saw El Espinazo del Diablo, sometime soon after it came out, when I
still belonged to a good film club or rather while the film club still existed. It was a godsend in Republican territory, where mind control is the object.  Of course, I mean US rather than Spain.  Which gives real meaning to something like this at #161, quoth being capable of saying,

"Sort of lacking a life of the mind, aren't you.....how very sad." from someone already lacking a soul.

But in any case your impressions on EEdD as mine are garbled six years later?  I still believe Picasso's Guernica was more immediate and undeserving of the tacky response (in quotes) above. I noticed in the Ken Burns series,The War, that his lead in footage for the war in Europe contained those sequences of the bombing of Guernica as I'd first seen them in my childhood, when it made a major impression, the fear on the street, the panic, I should say, the saving the children impulse since I could readily identify. It was the first "civilian bombing" in aviation history and the flight of history just kept on right from there,more Shock and Awe than any civilization can handle.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 26, 2007, 10:05:57 AM
Hoffman, amazon.co.uk has some good deals on DVD's.  Picked up Antonioni's The Passenger the other day for 5 pounds.  Recently, I've become intrigued in Eastern Europe stop-action animation, such as the works of Jan Svankmajer,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5wHMgTPF-s&mode=related&search=

I also found Blood Tea and Red String (an American production) fascinating,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR2zL-qErX8

Thank you Dzimas.  There is something in Svankmajer that reminds me of Tim Burton....Recently I saw a film of Svankmajer that I liked quite a bit,  Otesanek (Little Otik).  The film is about a couple who can't have children and so adopt a tree root.  Interesting to watch the root take on a personality as the movie goes on.

From what I seen of this movie and on YouTube, I like his sense of magic.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 26, 2007, 10:07:10 AM
"Sort of lacking a life of the mind, aren't you.....how very sad." from someone already lacking a soul.

CHARLIE

Look upon me!! I'll show you the life of the mind!!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 26, 2007, 10:11:03 AM

Actually it was the rabbit coming to life that captured my attention.  Svankmajer has been a big influence on Gilliam, Burton, the Quay Brothers and others.  Nice box set of his early work:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009KA8JY/ref=s9_asin_title_1/105-5791205-4542015?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0Z3GM7JZC8XCF3NP4G48&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=278240301&pf_rd_i=507846


Not me! I could spot that dead stuffed rabbit instantly from the start. The various creatures of Cegavska, part Lupine (perhaps more vixen, but what is the male Vulpine, ah, yes) crossed with rodent? were far more real stand-in for the human traits.

I mean that was one sick rabbit but nonetheless with doll's eyes and false teeth not as garish as some ventriloquist dummies.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 26, 2007, 10:13:28 AM

"Sort of lacking a life of the mind, aren't you.....how very sad." from someone already lacking a soul.

CHARLIE

Look upon me!! I'll show you the life of the mind!!


Are we on the same-page here or what? Candace's little brother?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 26, 2007, 10:14:41 AM
CHARLIE

I could tell you stories to curl your hair, but it looks like you've already heard em.


and...

...Can't trade my head in for a new one.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 26, 2007, 10:33:34 AM
Pan Lab/Devil's Backbone as a double feature -- good call, OILCAN.  Both are worth a second viewing.  I'm not sure about release dates, but I saw Pan's Labyrinth in early 2007 and so count it as one of the best films of 2007, which is turning into a pretty good film year -- some favorites, so far:


Pan's Labyrinth
Zodiac
Mr. Brooks
1408
The Lookout
The Queen
3:10 to Yuma
Eastern Promises
You Kill Me (a guess; renting this around Oct. 10)
No Country for Old Men (another guess, but I have buzz from reliable sources, and this is Coen Bros meet Cormac McCarthy...)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 26, 2007, 01:09:30 PM
Pan's Labrynth/Devil's Backbone....yes good double.  I think from what I've read of Cronos would also fit in there somewhere, but I haven't seen it. 


On reliability...who can you trust...there is the scene where Ofelia is dressed as a princess, and the fairies destroy her clothes.  There is also a feeling of C.S.Lewis's Mr. Tumnus about Pan.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 26, 2007, 05:28:53 PM
Barton:  "Mr. Brooks" is an utter turkey and a drain-circling waste of resources.  The absence of wit to accompany the grim stupidity of the film was nearly depressing if can't laugh off KC as a shitty movie star.  Cast Bill Pullman and let Trey Parker to a touch up and you have excellent studio camp, a level this movie aims at only because of failing to have any real moment of suspense or interesting storyline.  You don't get to be a "black comedy" just because you kill people and have no story.  If it's character-driven, you have to have an interesting portrayal, and Costner, who has shown a glimmer of devil-may-care or humanity in 3K2MG or "A Perfect World," simply drops the ball where Pacino knows he has to ham to the cheap seats to make it fun for people.  Add Dane Cook, and I'm hoping the "Good Luck Chuck" numbers aren't enough to sustain the by now more than 4 bombs you are supposed to get like the way they were charitable to Dana Carvey, who, despite still slipping into Church Lady or Jimmy Stewart on Leno, which is a yawner on top of a yawner, is at least a funny guy in real life while Dane Cook appears and must be insufferable.  I would rather babysit a blotto Val Kilmer after being in Vegas for a week on no sleep than have a two-minute conversation with Dane Cook.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 26, 2007, 06:46:59 PM
Say what you will, Jbot.  I enjoyed Mr. Brooks in spite of its flaws -- there was something there that even William Hurt with his weird narco-dead voice in the backseat couldn't obliterate.  I sort of enjoy putting it on the list because I know so many people hate the thing and I can't really dispute anything they say.  More than the sum of its farts.  I think Costner's listless performance is exactly what Mr. Brooks is about, and I don't mean in a campy sense.  He strikes a vein of banality in the lives of the rich that struck a true chord for me.





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 26, 2007, 08:16:16 PM
  Cast Bill Pullman and...

... I will watch your movie.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 26, 2007, 08:17:08 PM
I would rather babysit a blotto Val Kilmer after being in Vegas for a week on no sleep...

Where do I sign up?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 26, 2007, 08:28:58 PM
I think Costner's listless performance is exactly what Mr. Brooks is about, and I don't mean in a campy sense.  He strikes a vein of banality in the lives of the rich that struck a true chord for me.

That one where Russell Crowe inherits a vineyard seemed like it could have easily been a Bad-Costner.  There's a lot of Bad-Costner, in that it's pretty much all bad, but I liked him in "3KMTG" and I thought "Waterworld" was great.  I also liked "Revenge" for some reason.  Maybe that's all "campy", I don't know.

[Totally off-subject aside alert]

Pitt looks funny as the doofus main character in the upcoming Coen Bros CIA-tape comedy:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0887883/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0887883/)



 

 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 27, 2007, 12:25:29 AM
"I think Costner's listless performance is exactly what Mr. Brooks is about, and I don't mean in a campy sense.  He strikes a vein of banality in the lives of the rich that struck a true chord for me."

But the joke is that someone would choose to be a serial killer because having a company (that makes boutique "boxes" by the way, I could digress for a while about how that company eats itself by failing or isn't family-owned, seriously, tell me one company that makes shit that is elemental that is family-owned, no...) that's perfect and a perfect wife and girl in the right school, would somehow yield a serial killer out of boredom.

See:  People become serial killers because of post-traumatic stress disorder that arises out of sexual abuse when they are pre-pubescent.  That's just true, across the board, nothing makes you do this out of interest like Hitchcock's "Rope," or the Leopold and Loeb thing, there's really nothing that someone with any intellect would attempt without being sexually traumatized....

...so, you get Kevin Costner who isn't just losing it at work and becoming undone (which happens with psychosis or with schizophrenia in guys in their early 20's who present as inappropriately sexual and violent, and they are ID'd), but instead of a Woody Allen at the center of the thing where he admits with little reluctance that he likes 18 yr. old women no matter how old he gets probably because he has a problem with, what, life, morbidity, etc., I mean...

...there are jokes about suburban boredom, but they don't happen to guys we have no insight about who inherit box-companies (and don't even tell me that this is a guy who compartmentalizes things and put everything in a different box, terrible if that was the idea), and moreover, because Costner was so bad it made Hurt bad, because Hurt got the IDEA, even if he couldn't do the movie the way he knew it should be done.

...people aren't stupid about serial killers anymore, and they are loners who can not generally develop the aparratus to make a company that makes boxes.  Do you have any idea how cheap it is to make a box?  Real cheap.  Now.  Do you know that to mass-produce boxes or any container is very-expensive and that you will get smashed on pulp, resin, and other basic costs.  Do you, screenwriter, know that you don't get to live in a modern art building with what, minimalism boutique design, on what you get out of, uh, "boxes," even for like, Japanese perfume.

I don't want to argue with you in any specific way Barton, but I just think that the movie was, unlike where you hire Hopkins and give him nothing to say in a run of the mill Hollywood movie that can't hold a candle to "Shattered," just awful in execution, I mean if you want an extended metaphor for ennui, I mean, you're at the fucking cineplex to combat exactly that...and what's the solution at the end, more popcorn because that was funny or just wow, where do I point out where that went wrong?

I admit that not everybody has the same comic impulses, but like even "COPS," is only funny if someone lies about dope and then starts crying and then admits it and then runs and jumps the fence, etc.

I'm not wild about someone who offs people with William Hurt egging him on unless we get into the subterranian land where the uncle scrued Costner, or whatever, or make him run a business that he can run, etc., or make Dane Cook turn out to be simply another part of his imagination, etc., but "Mr. Brooks" sucked all the chrome off of a mexicar.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 27, 2007, 03:18:11 AM
Costner's basic problem is that he can't act, he can only play himself to one degree or another.  For the most part, he plays very flat characters. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 27, 2007, 10:48:02 AM
"I mean if you want an extended metaphor for ennui, I mean, you're at the fucking cineplex to combat exactly that...."

Well, true, but I wasn't suggesting that watching ennui was going to induce ennui.  If anything, it might induce a spell of schadenfreude.

I didn't take the film literally in the sense of "Ah, Costner is depicting an actual serial killer and I will watch carefully for anything that strays from the canon of true and established facts regarding serial killers...."

It was more like he created someone who really doesn't fit in the box, who isn't a serial killer in the FBI profile sense at all, but just this odd person who finds, in killing people, a hobby as enjoyable as making pottery.   So, it is a sort of Hitchcockian joke, or what physicists like to call a "thought experiment."




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 27, 2007, 02:11:31 PM
Understood, I just thought that there were too many opportunities to make a movie about "serial-killer movies," or have it be funnier, especially with the nagging Wm. Hurt character, who was funny, just not funny enough.  If they had just let Costner tell Hurt to go weird with the thing, and Costner at least rolling his eyes a little, I don't know, sometimes you just want to shake Costner and tell him that we already know he's in a movie, and this is the thing that is funny to Bill Pullman in the beginning and written subtly across his face when the character will allow, whereas Costner seems to grip the screen with a dogged seriousness, and not exploit trash in a way that makes bad movies better or even near great, but it's not really his fault, he doesn't know what I mean, but Pacino, and Nicholson, and Dickie Dreyfuss and Pullman and others do.....in fact, if Pacino didn't make a fool of himself regularly then he would be known as "you know, Michael from the Godfather".....but I'm happy naturally that you enjoyed it, and it does square as "a reasonable entertainment," but I get disappointed when I see a much better and funnier movie that, when you have all those people together and that kind of opportunity, leaves me just disappointed.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 28, 2007, 11:41:03 AM
I'd watch Bill Pullman read bus schedules out loud.  So, in that sense, any dark/funny and/or noirish film that doesn't cast Bill Pullman, has disappointment potential. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 28, 2007, 11:49:31 AM
I'd watch Bill Pullman read bus schedules out loud...

That's nothing... I actually watched that Claire-Danes-goes-to-jail-somewhere-in-Southeast-Asia movie.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 28, 2007, 12:00:26 PM
That's good.  I'm not familiar with what movie that is.  Is Bill Pullman in it?  Does he help Claire Danes break out?  Help me wrap my head around this.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 28, 2007, 12:12:15 PM
Yeah, Claire Danes and Kate Beckinsale are on vacation in Thailand or somewhere like that, and they meet some cute guy and they're both trying to have a fling with him or something.  Then it turns out he's a drug dealer and a scam artist, and he plants drugs in their purse (I'm not sure what his motivation was) and they get thrown in jail, and Pullman is the guy in the US consulate (or maybe he's just a lawyer there) who tries to get them out via legal channels, etc. 

I can't remember if they escape or what happens, and I surely don't recommend it.  I was just offering it as support for my "If you cast Bill Pullman, I will watch your movie" assertion.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on September 28, 2007, 12:12:49 PM
Strangely enough, that flick has been playing on Oxygen (Oprah's channel) a lot recently.  I've been caught up in it for a while once or twice while passing through -- it's not that bad.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 28, 2007, 12:15:46 PM
"Brokedown Palace" - I just remembered the title.  I don't remember it being good or bad, I just know that I've never been very impressed with Claire Danes or Kate Beckinsale in anything.  Then again, I'm sure neither of them has ever been impressed with anything I've done, so there you go. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 28, 2007, 12:23:03 PM
If Brokedown Palace has Bill Pullman, and ANY potential for Kate Beckinsale being partially or fully naked in the tropics, then I'm inclined to have a look.

I will say, KB was not too inspiring in Laurel Canyon, and I've generally been unimpressed since her debut to the U.S. in that "I something nahhh-sty behind the woodshed" comedy. 

Cold Comfort Farm.

 



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on September 28, 2007, 12:25:54 PM
If Brokedown Palace has Bill Pullman, and ANY potential for Kate Beckinsale being partially or fully naked in the tropics, then I'm inclined to have a look.


IIRC, there's caning too, or at least the threat thereof.  And cranky prison matrons, too.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on September 28, 2007, 01:32:36 PM
oilcan, you have the most interrrrresting resources.  I mean that genuinely.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 28, 2007, 02:22:21 PM
Second that.  I tried to click on Oil's link and got this:

"Your organization's Internet use policy restricts access to this web page at this time."

Dangit.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 28, 2007, 03:48:05 PM
You say "Brokedown Palace," I say, where's my.....

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0124595/



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 28, 2007, 03:52:00 PM
"WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THEY WERE DOING MIDNIGHT EXPRESS WITH HOT GIRLS, G_D IT, YOU M_Fers, HIRE TWO YOUNG DUDES, MAKE THE HOT ONE THE LAWYER AND THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE YES_TER_DAYAAAAAEEEERRRRRRGGGGGG!!?!!?"

Also, please see...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119994/

...with the ROT fucking MASTER...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 28, 2007, 04:01:54 PM
In "Scarlet Begonia, Sugar Magnolia," Bill Pullman and Benicio Del Toro are arrested crossing the border into France after swallowing condoms full of heroin, after escaping when Famke Janssen sneaks an icepick concealed in a baguette into the prison, our heroes chip away the concrete and hide the hole behind a poster of "Au Revoir, Les Enfant Terribe, Tous Le Matin Du Monde," and wiggle out while being pursued by highly irritated INTERPOL detective Gerard Depardieu as well as CIA agent David Duchovny, who keeps losing his rental  moped and fake moustache when he smokes pot and does mushrooms in Amsterdam.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 28, 2007, 05:07:39 PM
(http://www.monstersandcritics.com/image.php?file=downloads/downloads/movies/panslabyrinth_1/images/group2/12.jpg&width=500)

A book, a key, some magic chalk...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 28, 2007, 10:19:14 PM
"Your organization's Internet use policy restricts access to this web page at this time."

Whoops - I hope System Operators aren't angry or alarmed or whatever.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 28, 2007, 10:33:28 PM
In "Scarlet Begonia, Sugar Magnolia," Bill Pullman and Benicio Del Toro are...

Would the opening credits montage go gwonk-gwonk-GWONK or GWONK-gwuh-gwuh-GWONK?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 29, 2007, 11:19:56 AM
Oil, looks like your post was deleted, now that I'm on a less-restricted computer.  I think I can find the website anyway.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 29, 2007, 06:23:12 PM
Cee Enn Dee Bee Dot Com


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 29, 2007, 07:17:18 PM

Strangely enough, that flick has been playing on Oxygen (Oprah's channel) a lot recently.  I've been caught up in it for a while once or twice while passing through -- it's not that bad.


When you first said it, I was not making the connection. Then I remembered. She has been trying to save this young woman who got caught up in one of these set-ups,schemes, what  have you; and you know how Oprah is when she crusades for something.  I don't know if the "girl" is doing a life sentence or what. As she doesn't have the charm and appeal of Clare Danes, it is a bit of a problem. I don't recall the whole case in detail which is several years old. Fundamentally the Danes film, which originally had nothing to do with other people getting set up in real life, is relevant from the point of view that Americans take on vacations to exotic places. First and foremost, they are Americans and plan to enjoy certain perqs same as at home and really can't believe there might be a part of the world that punitive about something so ordinary as drugs in the American evaluation of things recreational. Places that are tired of taking the scape-goat-fall from US administrations are hard-nosed. They may or may not execute their own nationals for the same offense; for moving drugs. Yet their nationals do that because of the economy and having these inbuilt customers who arrive. And works out for their current political administration doing show trials just as we do on our particular administrative bent.  And, then, there is Oprah. Need I say more? She could probaby run the Country from Chicago if need be.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 29, 2007, 07:37:59 PM

If Brokedown Palace has Bill Pullman, and ANY potential for Kate Beckinsale being partially or fully naked in the tropics, then I'm inclined to have a look.

I will say, KB was not too inspiring in Laurel Canyon, and I've generally been unimpressed since her debut to the U.S. in that "I something nahhh-sty behind the woodshed" comedy. 

Cold Comfort Farm.


I rather enjoyed Cold Comfort Farm; was that another Charlotte Rampling? It's that in-family joke, for anyone with any bit of British descent, known as poor relatives who have poor relations. Reminds me of a discussion once had about how to understand a Poet Laureate in the UK, if you are an already basket-case academically excelling "poetess" because your father was a professor from Germany who allowed himself to develop gangrene.  We actually discussed this to a faretheewell in the nytimes.com forum. I didn't get to stay around for the sequel, which they had to have, and I would have loved to have read it(the discussion) but those are the breaks. There is just no collegiality in some peoples'  idea of poetry; for them poetry is about competition.

Which is the whole point of a comedic element in Cold Comfort Farm, when you recall what kind of people the survivors of the Poet Laureate of the UK turned out to be.  Prince Charles may have loved him enough to use his personal private helicopter to move the deceased poet's monument into place; but no arrangements were made to see that rightful heirs of the Poet Laureate received any dues from the royalties of the very poetic persons involved. Never changes. Life is all Cold Comfort Farm.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 29, 2007, 07:59:33 PM
(http://www.filmfocus.co.uk/images/dynamic/pans-2.jpg)

Where is this Oilcanboy???

Where is this Jbottle???

I'm simply starved for young boys...


Hmm-hmmmmmm. Good!!!!!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on September 29, 2007, 09:47:42 PM
Hey man, I didn't touch any of those grapes...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 29, 2007, 09:58:58 PM
In FoxSearchlight's "Penis Breath..."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on September 29, 2007, 11:10:27 PM
When you first said it, I was not making the connection. Then I remembered. She has been trying to save this young woman who got caught up in one of these set-ups,schemes, what  have you; and you know how Oprah is when she crusades for something.  I don't know if the "girl" is doing a life sentence or what.

madupont, maybe you're thinking of the Australian surfer girl who says customs officials planted herb on her and is, I believe, still incarcerated.  Basically, I figured Brokedown Palace was potentially a chick flick and just part of a syndication package her TV channel bought.  Perhaps there is a connection...

Sorry, I don't get the charm and appeal of Clare Danes.  To me, Clare Danes is to Clive Owen as deer in the headlights look is to studied scowl plus monotone.  Different strokes, I guess.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 29, 2007, 11:28:33 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/676/bf5/676bf53b-dddc-4ea1-8381-5df1c9f4f628)


Penis Breath..................



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 30, 2007, 02:50:26 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/898/463/89846387-e53d-4860-bf95-fcb75831c649)

Répertoire

Main Entry: rep-rep-toire 
Pronunciation: 're-p&(r)-"twär
Function: noun
Etymology: French répertoire, from Late Latin repertorium
1 a : a list or supply of dramas, operas, pieces, or parts that a company
or person is prepared to perform b : a supply of skills, devices, or
expedients <part of the repertoire of a poet>; <the repertoire
of literary criticism>; <an endless repertoire of summer clothes>;
<the instruction repertoire of a computer>;  <our modern orchestral
repertoire> <the repertoire of magic realism>







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 30, 2007, 06:33:46 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/b56/461/b5646123-e7a8-44ca-b860-3a33c54d73a3)

Notes on Fantasy

1. The fantasy world = tangible & real

2. The real world less detailed—than the fantasy world

3. The real world = very simple & sparse

4. Except Capitán Vidal’s Room = baroque…

5. The fantasy world = hyper-real

6. The fantasy world = more powerful than real world

7. Gore = spectacle or dramatic

8. Violence = Tom and Jerry spectacular…

9. Versus harrowing experience

10. Natural world and magical world = echoing each other constantly





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 30, 2007, 06:40:55 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/6c5/9de/6c59de4d-74c3-4289-9cad-7cd8552fc9df)

Notes on Fairy Tales

1. Storytelling = simplicity

2. The fairy tale = simple and brutal

3. The fairy tale = Little Red Riding Hood?

4. Ofelia = prepubescent rite of passage

5. The fairy tale = externalized enigmas

6. Monsters = fabulation GRE

7. The Rule of Three = 3 doors, 3 wishes, 3 tasks etc.

8. One reality—pulls us in from another reality

9. Moral of the fairy tale = game of interpretation

10. Interpretation = multiplication not addition







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 30, 2007, 06:55:36 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/988/83e/98883e9c-4d3d-4bcd-af37-aa9cad2e30fc)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 30, 2007, 09:29:27 AM


madupont, maybe you're thinking of the Australian surfer girl who says customs officials planted herb on her and is, I believe, still incarcerated....

Sorry, I don't get the charm and appeal of Clare Danes.  To me, Clare Danes is to Clive Owen as deer in the headlights look is to studied scowl plus monotone.  Different strokes, I guess.
[/color

Exactly. But, other than what can happen to actual citizens from anywhere in the world who try to go anywhere else,don't worry. We go places because we have the money to do so and figure that ought to do it. The world awaits like a bunch of sharks.

As far as I'm concerned the other two "names" are merely "commodities" of the Industry, until such time as they work on developing their acting abilities,other than their personas.  I was most disappointed in the "personality" of  Clive Owen opposite Natalie Portman in whatever that foursome switcheroo was that was supposed to be an interesting concept(switching partners? come on, they have to be kidding?). The other two participants were Julia Roberts behaving like Uma Thurman and another somewhat over-rated actor, who risks being bland,Jude Law.

I thought Clive Owen should have thrown Natalie Portman something more to do than narcissism.  Look what she did for Jean Reno, as a child. That potential is misused every time it isn't tapped by a savvy director. It is hard to believe Mike Nichols perpetrated this.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on September 30, 2007, 09:30:43 AM
Don't ask. Won't tell. I have no idea how that happened?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 30, 2007, 09:57:22 AM
On Pan's Labyrnth:

Captain's room, baroque.  del Toro points out in his commentary that the gears are meant to imitate the gears of his clock, everything else in his world is flat.

On use of color:  The real world is made up of blue, grey, green black while the fanstasy world is reds, golds....When Ofelia pays her visit to the frog, she is dressed as a princess, but the dress is green (of reality).  The dress is destroyed.

Ofelia in the monster's chamber...are we meant to know her fate when she eats the fruit?  (Persephone)

There is a great overhead shot of the Labyrinth at the beginning that is about as Borgean as anything I've seen. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on September 30, 2007, 10:02:41 AM
Exactly. But, other than what can happen to actual citizens from anywhere in the world who try to go anywhere else,don't worry. We go places because we have the money to do so and figure that ought to do it. The world awaits like a bunch of sharks.

Tell me about it -- I have a nephew who travels the world climbing rocks, and I'm always afraid I'll see his name in the news, either for an (obviously planted!) controlled substance, or getting caught up in a coup or something.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 30, 2007, 10:47:53 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/a07/31b/a0731b43-bce4-4b1c-b666-119babb1eb1e)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 30, 2007, 11:46:14 AM
If Brokedown Palace has Bill Pullman, and ANY potential for Kate Beckinsale being partially or fully naked in the tropics, then I'm inclined to have a look.


You will be sorely disappointed on all counts, I'm afraid.  The movie proved to be a complete waste of time.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on September 30, 2007, 02:40:55 PM
Thanks for the heads up.  I did check out "cee enn dee bee dot com" however, and found it a pleasant way to pass any large segment of time you would care to specify.  The new Natalie Portman update was quite informative.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on September 30, 2007, 02:47:30 PM
Brokedown Palace failed at either being a prison chick movie or political movie.  It seemed like it was supposed to be based on a true story <spoiler> but it was very hard to believe that the Claire Danes character would give up her freedom for someone like the gal Kate Beckinsale played, especially since she was the one who got them into a Thai jail in the first place.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on September 30, 2007, 03:25:38 PM
Dzimas....really like that new icon/avatar(?), Behemouth the cat.  I'm using it on my desktop.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 30, 2007, 05:48:30 PM
(http://www.horrordirectors.com/GuillermodelToro/gdt1.jpg)

Guillermo del Toro

Pan’s Labyrinth has a second disk that may interest some of the more intellectual cineastes in our midst. The two 10-pointers in my Fantasy and Fairy Tale messages were taken from this second disk.

The Director’s Notebook on this fascinating second disk is a Book—the screen zeroes in on the actual directors notebook begun in 1993. There are hypertext links which lead into Guillermo del Toro discussing how the movie evolved as well as his own concept of what “magic realism” is…

This is a very sophisticated movie…yet simple at the same time. The grotesque creatures remind me of some people I know in fact…


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on September 30, 2007, 10:58:44 PM
Uh, yeah, whatever.  I think "magic realism" is an overwrought type of genre/defense mechanism to bad trauma, I prefer the ordinary misperception, arrogance, addiction, vanity, and greed of noir, or some off-shoot.

I don't like to watch bugs fuck around in a war movie.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on September 30, 2007, 11:42:16 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/f56/cac/f56cacc4-91ab-4848-a28d-b405369cde52)

Capitán Vidal: "Don't fuck with me."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0457430/quotes


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 01, 2007, 08:00:14 AM
Dzimas....really like that new icon/avatar(?), Behemouth the cat.  I'm using it on my desktop.

Glad you like it.  What a character (among many) that Bulgakov imagined!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 01, 2007, 10:38:57 PM
[here lies jbottle]


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 02, 2007, 12:19:59 AM
Three Pages from Director’s Notebook

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/566/3d6/5663d60f-f76d-4b42-ba92-f49cd5353531)


(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/d9d/d60/d9dd60f4-85bb-4df7-81d8-757992f8d70d)


(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/652/9fc/6529fc2f-8984-4d42-829d-db2d2b1a0833)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 02, 2007, 01:54:07 AM
So you're a fanboy, got it:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0465538/

One less syllable than "Erin Brockovich," where the push-up bra became mainstream in the first green/tit film, so I have to like the Oscar nod.

Pan's Labyrinth is particularly average, hate to say, I'd rather watch snail's fuck.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 02, 2007, 01:55:53 AM
...but only if they could polish each other off before the "zzzzzzzzzz" sets in....


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 02, 2007, 02:22:45 AM
On Pan's Labyrnth:

Captain's room, baroque.  del Toro points out in his commentary that the gears are meant to imitate the gears of his clock, everything else in his world is flat.

I noticed that too. The Captain's room is huge and very baroque compared with the other rooms in the mansion. Del Toro goes into doing that on purpose. Each room is very sparce with one, two, three or four at the most pieces of furnature like one big bed or chair or mirror. Del Toro says he kept the real world simple that way...except for the Captain's room that is hyper-organized like his watch which he obsesses over. The fantasy world is just as real as the real world and maybe even more so because of all the fine details in the labyrinth world... Del Toro mentions that the Ofilia is aways being drawn from one world to the other. He sees the movie as a simple fairy tale about prepubescence rit de passage...often a time of much fantasizing and reality-testing...


On Pan's Labyrnth:

On use of color:  The real world is made up of blue, grey, green black while the fanstasy world is reds, golds....When Ofelia pays her visit to the frog, she is dressed as a princess, but the dress is green (of reality).  The dress is destroyed.

Yes, the frog scene was a good fantasy scene giving her the Key. She has the Book. Then the knife. Del Toro says it's all ruled by the Rule of Three: three tasks, three doors, three wishes etc. Obviously he's done a lot of research into fairy tales and mythology. He's also studied psychology like Bettelheim noting that monster in fairy tales are the exteriorization of inner fears and complexes once handled differently earlier in history compared with civilization and its discontents now. The magic chalk opens up a truly magical baroque colorful world where she's tempted by the table full of delicious fruit only to be...


On Pan's Labyrnth:

Ofelia in the monster's chamber...are we meant to know her fate when she eats the fruit?  (Persephone)

A very scary scene. In the second disk in the Director's Notebook chapter, del Toro gets into how the monster evolved into the one with eyes in his palms. One often wonders how directors and special effects persons dream up such shocking things...and del Toro's notebooks are very sophisticated. I posted three of them above. They have hypertext buttons to guide the moviegoer into del Toro's commentaries. I can see DVD's getting increasingly complex and detailed with these two-disk presentations and commentaries... Del Toro's notebook pages opening up to commentaries and illustrations are much more sophisticated than the earlier DVD's...


On Pan's Labyrnth:

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/566/3d6/5663d60f-f76d-4b42-ba92-f49cd5353531)

There is a great overhead shot of the Labyrinth at the beginning that is about as Borgean as anything I've seen. 

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/fad/750/fad75009-54b2-48cf-baf9-94c445b70aab)

The horns of the faun are everywhere: over the doors, in the banister of the stairs, a recurring icon...



Title: lhoffman
Post by: Detective_Winslow on October 02, 2007, 02:40:41 AM
Have you seen Pan's Labyrinth yet?



Dingleberry






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 02, 2007, 02:41:35 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/6c5/9de/6c59de4d-74c3-4289-9cad-7cd8552fc9df)

So you're a fanboy, got it:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0465538/

Pan's Labyrinth is particularly average, hate to say, I'd rather watch snail's fuck.


For somebody that doesn't like this movie, you certainly do a lot of kvetching, carping,
and complaining about it. Your somewhat off-color vocabulary is going to such waste
denigrating this film and those of us who are doing what this Movie Club was created
by liquidsilver to do...and that is to do a Thread about one Movie and discuss it in
detail. Your reputation from the NYTimes Film Forum precedes you, my dear jbottle.
I was hoping you would come around and help us do a decent discussion with one
specific Movie, but alas that was obviously too much to ask for. The Ignore Button is
a helpful little gadget...please don't expect any further responses from me because you're
in the Ignore Crypt now with some other lovely people too. Thanks for your support with
this new Movie Forum. Let's see if it can survive at least one Movie Discussion...





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 02, 2007, 02:52:09 AM
Of course it would help if I saw Pan's Labyrinth, then I would take a more active role in this discussion.  As it is, I have to sit on the sideline for this one.  I like the idea of picking a movie or director to focus on, maybe even do a little retrospective of films, whether by director, actor or theme, whereby we don't focus in on just one work which all of us have not seen.  Or, do a head's up, so that we can all watch the movie.

I received The Passenger yesterday, which I'm looking forward to watching it again after a long time.  Loved Jack's early work, not to mention Antonioni.  Five Easy Pieces is one of my favorites of his from that era. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 02, 2007, 03:11:34 AM

As it is, I have to sit on the sideline for this one. 
 

I thought, dzimas, you had agreed to do
this film with Hoffman and me.

Apparently not. What are your thoughts
Hoffman. Shall we continue with Pan?





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 02, 2007, 10:53:04 AM
Pugetopolis

"The fantasy world is just as real as the real world and maybe even more so because of all the fine details in the labyrinth world..."

del Toro makes a point showing this early on in PL and in Devil's Backbone, as well.  The first intersection of the fantastic with reality occurs in the light of day. 

Is there a computer DVD that contains the director's notebook, or did you find this on-line?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 02, 2007, 11:09:55 AM
The Director's Notebooks are on the 2nd disk of the New Line 2-disc Platinum Series.

The Notebooks have interactive menus pages for accessing video "pods" that feature
interviews with Del Toro:

El Hombre de Madera
Torture of The Maquis
The Phases of the Moon
Iconography: Echo
The Underground Kingdom
Minature Construction
The Mill Set Design


Title: Pan's Labyrinth
Post by: Lhoffman on October 02, 2007, 12:30:26 PM
Thank you...nice feature on the DVD.  I wish I could make out his writing.  But interesting, on page 8, his drawing of "Alicia."  He could have chosen to name her Alicia rather than Ofelia, but I suppose that Alice was never really part of the fantasy world, only seeking an escape, while Ofelia/Ophelia....once she went down, she stayed down.


Title: Pan's Labyrinth
Post by: Lhoffman on October 02, 2007, 12:35:48 PM
Same idea behind Alice, though...the child on the precipice, struggling to hold onto the known.  But does del Toro need to make her an orphan to make the struggle more real to adults who have already come through?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 02, 2007, 03:11:29 PM
I watched Pan's Labyrinth last night.  It certainly held my attention, anyway, but I can't quite decide whether I liked it or not.  Interesting juxtaposition of evil in it - the imaginary monsters are far more benign than the real ones.  All in all I'd give it a 7 on a scale of 10.


Title: Pan's Labyrinth
Post by: Lhoffman on October 02, 2007, 03:16:39 PM
Desdemona....do you think there is truth in the idea that the monsters we know are more frightening than the monsters we don't know?  or is it the other way around?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 02, 2007, 03:33:42 PM
Well, from the standpoint of the movie, Ofelia certainly seems much more comfortable with the imaginary monsters than she is with the human ones - Pan doesn't scare her a bit, nasty as he is, and the frog vomit certainly seems to be less distasteful than the torture of guy who stutters.  If we're talking about real life as opposed to the movie, that question is really a tricky one.  The imagination can stimulate a great deal of fear and dread, or at least in my experience it can, particularly for a child.  I can vividly remember getting so frightened by imaginary horrors inspired by movies and dreams as a little girl that I couldn't move.  With life experience and knowledge, though, I've learned that real-life and real people are far scarier than anything my imagination can conjure.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on October 02, 2007, 04:11:02 PM
Saw Pan's Lab. about nine months ago, in a theater.  From what I recall, it seemed that the imaginary (if they WERE imaginary, eh?) creatures of the girl's magical world weren't all that frightening, except for the thing that had to install its own eyeballs.  Her magical world was primarily a place of beauty and manageable mysteries, which the film sets against the completely baffling world of adult human aggression and sadism and so forth.  This seems like a common theme in magical realism and fantasy -- the ordinary world is presented as essentially absurd and mean and one is not given any meaningful steps one can take to fix things.  That can be the world of the child in many places and times.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 02, 2007, 06:36:38 PM
"The imagination can stimulate a great deal of fear and dread, or at least in my experience it can, particularly for a child."

I think that is the purpose of fairy tales in childhood.  The child confronts the fear or the creature and overcomes.  This is why children today, with all their sophistication, still love to listen to fairy tales.

del Toro said PL was for him a take on Red Riding Hood.

Barton, I thought the creature with the eyes was terrifying.  The interesting thing in that scene is the contrast to the scene where the girl first encounters the fairy.  On the way to the mill, the mother becomes sick and has to stop.  Ofelia is waiting for her mother and picks up a small engraved stone.  She finds a statue and fits the stone into the eyehole of the statue, then the fairy appears.  It is the beginning of sight and the beginning of Ofelia's journey. 

When the creature is awakened and sees what is going on, it is the end for one of the fairies.

I've noticed in watching del Toro's work, that there are recurring themes of blindness and vision.  I've seen this in PL, Cronos and Devil's Backbone. 

Has anyone seen Hellboy?   Does this relate at all?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 02, 2007, 09:16:42 PM
Has anyone seen Hellboy?   Does this relate at all?

I liked "Hellboy".  The best joke was near the beginning when they tell you how he was born and they show a photograph of him as a pup with John Hurt and the army soldiers who found him when they raided some crazy Nazi experiment in WW2.   Since GDT is so great, it's an authentic-looking picture you'd expect to see of some army platoon or whatever, gathered in a group shot after a successful mission in WW2, all proud and smiling, with John Hurt along as some scientist-adviser, and a little Hellboy in there with the widest smile of them all. 

There was a vision element in there, I think.  The actor who plays the hand-eye monster in PL plays some aquatic super-genius with psychic powers, and I think he's blind, but his other senses are so keen that he sees better than we do or something.  It's sort of like X-Men, in that they're a group of mutant superhero/freaks, but it's not about mutants versus humans or anything like that.

There's the psychic fish-guy, there's Selma Blair who can spontaneously combust, and there's Hellboy.  Their captain is John Hurt, but he doesn't have any superpowers.  He has a secret budget from the government to run the operation and do research and so forth.

"Hellboy" got a bad rap, and maybe it deserves it, and maybe I have a too-soft soft spot for GDT, but I did like it.  It was no "Blade 2", but not much is.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 02, 2007, 09:38:19 PM
"I was an altar boy, a spokesperson for
the Virgin Mary, I was a choir boy but then
at the age of 14 I discovered masturbation
and all that went out the window."

-- Guillermo del Toro


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 02, 2007, 10:10:02 PM
Pugetopolis....always surprising, considering that the Catholics really seem to understand psychology...

Oilcan...I have the Hellboy, just got it in the mail today.  I will watch later this week.  Is Blade II the only one associated with GdT? 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 02, 2007, 10:28:21 PM
Oilcan...I have the Hellboy, just got it in the mail today.  I will watch later this week.  Is Blade II the only one associated with GdT? 

I don't know if I understand the question.  "Hellboy" is associated with GDT in that he directed it.  Is that what you're asking?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 02, 2007, 10:34:32 PM
sorry...Is Blade II the only Blade that del Toro was associated with? 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 02, 2007, 10:45:51 PM
sorry...Is Blade II the only Blade that del Toro was associated with? 

Oh, my bad.  Now that I go back and re-read it, your question does read that way - I just read it wrong.

Anyways, I read somewhere that GDT said he would have loved to have done "Blade 3" but the timing didn't work out, as he had the opportunity to do "Hellboy" at the time.

"Blade" was okay, I thought, but "Blade 2" was great.  It came out in 2002, and I don't even think I knew who GDT was when I saw it.  I had surely seen "Mimic", and maybe I knew that the guy who did "Mimic" had directed a low-budget movie before that, but that was probably about the extent of my GDT acumen at the time.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 02, 2007, 11:01:45 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/412/b1a/412b1a95-409e-46a4-aa78-af8efe1c3640)

The Book

A movie is like a blank book.
We open it up like Ofelia—
the pages bleed. We open it
up—it talks to us. We open it
up—the Other speaks to us…

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/bdc/472/bdc472b1-65bf-465b-b465-390ed0e0c9e9)

Plus we have the Key and the
Magic Chalk. It’s all there—
ready for us to use.

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/15e/23c/15e23ce1-60f1-41b5-a8e1-018f6a375c6c)

Some call it Fabulation—others
call it Fairy Tales.

Some call it Magic Realism—
others call it the Labyrinth.

Some call it Dialogic Imagination—
others call it…

“It's just like a domino effect, and
you have to wait for those dominos
to be clicking near to you and be
prepared to fall!”—Guillermo del Toro

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/188/509/1885092d-806f-4713-a52b-a663a29c45dd)

“But I think we are seeing a resurgence
of the graphic ghost story like The Others,
Devil's Backbone and The Sixth Sense. It
is a return to more gothic atmospheric
ghost storytelling.”—Guillermo del Toro

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/60c/834/60c8342c-1395-4939-b169-07c73628425c)

Let me tell you this little ghost story—
but then isn’t that what I’ve just done?

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/6b8/3e6/6b83e699-f61e-471c-858f-414a338a35ad)

Here’s a twist—what if Ofelia
were a boy?





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 02, 2007, 11:50:51 PM
"Here’s a twist—what if Ofelia
were a boy?"

I think del Toro would have called him Carlos.....

(http://freespace.virgin.net/dave.watterson/0pics_0_l/devilsbackbone.jpg)

and of course we have different expectations of boys than of girls.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 03, 2007, 12:05:23 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/0df/b74/0dfb747a-73f7-44a8-a25a-c95d9f82cf81)

Hoffman—

Please tell us about The Devil's Backbone...

And how it compares with Pan's Labyrinth...

Clue me in on what I'll watch this weekend...

Things are warming up now.. 
:)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 03, 2007, 03:24:17 AM
Devil's Backbone and Pan's Labyrinth both begin with a child arriving at a new place in life.  Both children have been scarred by life, but the new destination holds even more danger...the feeling of looking down from a precipice....teetering.  Both children have to choose...obedience or disobedience. 

del Toro calls Devil's Backbone horror/fantasy.  It is a ghost story more than a fairy tale.  I found the characters in this movie far more evil than those in PL.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Detective_Winslow on October 03, 2007, 03:43:42 AM
Pan's Labyrinth was retarded.  Alice in Wonderland on acid-- how clever!  Del Toro's next project should be titled "Man's Gaybrinth", a tale of self-discovery through the eyes of a wooden boy named Manocchio.


New movie topic:



The Texas Chainsaw Massacre Part 2




(http://www.dvdtown.com/images/displayimage.php?id=4488)



I'll start. 


Does anyone think that Leatherface represents the Bush administration?




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 03, 2007, 04:40:50 AM

del Toro calls Devil's Backbone horror/fantasy.  


I'm looking forward to seeing DB;
PL has been quite an eye-opener for me.

I guess I don't look at horror movies as
a genre anymore, not really...

"I see horror as part of legitimate film.
I don't see it as an independent genre
that has nothing to do with the rest of
cinema."--Guillermo del Toro


He mentions Devil's Backbone, The Others
and The Sixth Sense as resurgence of the
graphic ghost story...in a way maybe his
Blade II is ghostly like with the vampires:

"It's only in modern times that we have
come to glorify vampirism."

"In that, Blade 2 is very much like a rock
concert... if it's too loud, you're too old."

"There are two levels of vampirism: one
is the regular vampire, which is just like
it has always been; and then there's the
super vampires, which are a new breed
we've created."


I saw Interview with a Vampire in SF
in the Castro; the gays booed Brad Pitt
for being such a whiney rich boy fop;
but they loved Cruise's portrayal which
was pretty authentic; at least the queens
I know down in New Orleans. Blade is
similar/different with all that Matrix
karate ballet...Shadow of the Vampire
seems more real to me; but then I, well,
tend to like Murnau for some reason.  :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 03, 2007, 07:33:40 AM
http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,112.msg35763.html#msg35763


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 03, 2007, 08:34:39 AM
Pan's Labyrinth was retarded.  Alice in Wonderland on acid-- how clever! 

I didn't find it to be that, exactly.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 03, 2007, 08:36:45 AM
New movie topic:  The Texas Chainsaw Massacre Part 2

I liked it okay - it was kind of boring but it had some funny jokes.

My favorite part was actually the end credits (and I don't mean that as a knock, like "I was glad it was over" or whatever), during which they played a song by Stewart Copeland called "Strange Things Happen".

I don't know if he wrote it specifically for the movie, but it's a great weird song.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 03, 2007, 09:40:35 AM

(http://www.dvdtown.com/images/displayimage.php?id=4488)

Does anyone think that Leatherface represents the Bush administration?

The guy with the red face looks a little bit like Richard Nixon.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on October 03, 2007, 10:26:45 AM
Much as I liked Pan's L, I think I liked Devil's Bbone more, though it's been so long now since I've seen DB that I need to rent it and rewatch if I'm going to make such assertions.  DB is much more frightening, for me, more truly in the horror genre.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 03, 2007, 10:55:22 AM
Guess I'll watch DB too - this is turning out to be an interesting discussion.

For what it's worth, my son remarked the other night that he thinks del Toro has an obsession with the Satanic, not an unreasonable statement.  Anyway, I love horror movies although I seldom watch them - I'm pretty jaded and picky.  If I get so much as a whif of cheesey horror, I won't watch it - that is, unless it's true grade B horror.  Best grade B horror flick - The Creeping Terror, about a carpet monster.  Second on the list, and a movie I've owned for years, is the original Hills Have Eyes Part II.  I just wanted that blind girl to meet a horrible fate.  LOL.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 03, 2007, 11:39:38 AM
For what it's worth, my son remarked the other night that he thinks del Toro has an obsession with the Satanic, not an unreasonable statement. 

I don't know about "unreasonable," but I'd be curious as to its accuracy.  Does your son know GDT personally, or is his statement based on his viewing of GDT's movies?  I've seen all of GDT's movies, and maybe I'm just missing something, but I don't get the impression that he's "obsessed with the Satanic." 

Sure, the character Hellboy is from Hell and all, and all of his GDT's movies have religious/spirtitual/etc themes and so forth, but it seems like a stretch to equate that with an "obsession with the Satanic" on the part of the director of the movie. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 03, 2007, 12:54:21 PM
this one can also be added to that new wave of terror in real life which is worst than any chainsaw

 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112922/


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 03, 2007, 02:37:36 PM
I've seen all of GDT's movies, and maybe I'm just missing something, but I don't get the impression that he's "obsessed with the Satanic." 


Satan is represented traditionally in withcraft with a goat, and Pan is half-goat, half-man, an ancient character often associated with witchcraft and Satanism.  Beelzebub's traditional image is a giant frog. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 03, 2007, 02:43:38 PM
Satan is represented traditionally in withcraft with a goat, and Pan is half-goat, half-man, an ancient character often associated with witchcraft and Satanism.  Beelzebub's traditional image is a giant frog. 

Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know.   All of his movies have religious/spiritual themes and so forth, no doubt.   But I still fail to see how that adds up to "GDT is obsessed with the Satanic."  Maybe he is, for all I know - I've never met him.  I'm just saying that, after watching his movies, that really did not occur to me.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 03, 2007, 03:45:52 PM
Somtimes Satan is pictured like a grey small terrier.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 03, 2007, 03:51:26 PM
I've also seen him depicted as red and scaly with a bifurcated tail and carrying a hayfork. 


Title: Devil in the flesh
Post by: Detective_Winslow on October 03, 2007, 03:59:28 PM
(http://powerlineblog.com/archives/hillary.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 03, 2007, 04:24:04 PM
Somtimes Satan is pictured like a grey small terrier.

Duly noted, MB - I edited my caption, as you can see.


Title: Re: Devil in the flesh
Post by: pugetopolis on October 03, 2007, 04:36:25 PM

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/hillary.jpg


(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/e30/a50/e30a506e-55ad-4293-a3ba-fd5835254e34)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 03, 2007, 04:48:28 PM

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/c8f/89d/c8f89d13-635b-406a-9d1b-b2349fa159b4)

Son of Dracula (1943)

—for Adeline De Walt Reynolds
   as Queen Zimba

You could hear it at night—
Humming to itself out in the dark
The swamp humming to itself…

The whole bayou alive—
Vibrating in the swamp night
It was so eerie and scary…

Queen Zimba told me—
Swamp-hum they called it…
The swamp hummed with life.

It was so atmospheric—
Queen Zimba and her boyz
Rising from their coffins…

Young vampires arise!!!
Katherine Caldwell thirsts
For boyz from the Undead…

Louise Allbritton—
Alluring as usual playing
Universal’s Scream Queen…

Lon Chaney Jr brutal—
And moody in his immaculate
Tuxedo as Count Dracula…

Evelyn Ankers seeking out—
Queen Zimba in her little shack
Deep in the bayou swamp…

The reading rudely interrupted—
A giant vampire bat swoops in
And gives Zimba a heart attack…

So much for the tea-leaves—
The entrails of owls and the usual
Occult prognostications…

Evelyn Ankers flees the scene—
Barely escaping with her life
Leaving Zimba to die there…

Poor Queen Zimba—
Tarot cards scattered all over
The dirt floor of the cabin…

Poor Queen Zimba—
Her face buried in her precious
Ouija board on the table…

Count Dracula can’t stand—
Carpathian competition or
Any Gypsy interference…

He wants Allbritton bad—
His companion for centuries
To come his Vampire lover…

I get to play Robert Paige—
Moody jilted fiancé of Louise
Soon to be Louise Alucard…

Dark Oaks Plantation—
Gets darker by the day and
Night with those coffin queens!

Robert Siodmak makes it—
Definitely Louisiana film noir
All that sultry Spanish moss…

All those old magnolias—
Run-down rotting plantation
Fetid swamp-gas at night…

All those alligators—
All those mosquitoes and
Prehistoric gar-fish things…

It’s enough to make—
Your skin crawl and your
Ears start to hear things…

Queen Zimba knew—
How things were out there
Where swamp-hum hums…

Where bad bayou boys—
Play poker all night long
Drinking Jax & cheating…

Queen Zimba knows—
She be Queen Bee forever
The Swamp hums death…


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on October 03, 2007, 05:05:18 PM
There's a creative writing forum, Pug, and nobody's been posting over there. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 03, 2007, 05:18:51 PM
Desdemona,

...about that green frog. Was that the one the Princess had to kiss to turn him into a Prince?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 03, 2007, 05:25:22 PM

I've seen all of GDT's movies, and maybe I'm just missing something, but I don't get the impression that he's "obsessed with the Satanic." 


Satan is represented traditionally in withcraft with a goat, and Pan is half-goat, half-man, an ancient character often associated with witchcraft and Satanism.  Beelzebub's traditional image is a giant frog. 


I don't know if H.D. was the first one to include this quote from some ancient text, "When Christ was born, it was said that a great voice was heard heralding from one part of the Greco-Roman world to another who repeated it until everyone knew,"Great Pan is dead."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 03, 2007, 05:34:56 PM
des,
ps. Here is someone's version that doesn't seem much more authoritative as to origin,

"DEATHLESS  NATURE  ---  PAN  ---  TRUTH  &  FACTS

"The Great Pan is dead!" wailed the mysterious voice over the Ionian Sea,
and forthwith plunged Tiberius and the pagan world into despair. The nascent
Nazarenes rejoiced and attributed that death to the new "God." Fools, both,
who little suspected that Pan--the "All Nature"--could not die. That that
which had died was only their fiction, the horned monster with the legs of a
goat, the "god" of shepherds and of priests who lived upon the popular
superstition, and made profit of the PAN of their own making. TRUTH can
never die.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 03, 2007, 06:09:25 PM
Thanks, maddie - I rest my case.   8)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 03, 2007, 06:13:19 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/c8f/89d/c8f89d13-635b-406a-9d1b-b2349fa159b4)

The Wolf Boy (1941)

—for Maria Ouspenskaya

Diaspora time—
It seems like I’ve always been
On the run from Death…

Gliding down Market—
Meandering thru Castro
Déjà vu mon amour…

Then & Now are One—
At least that’s what she says
Madam Ouspenskaya…

She takes her time now—
Doing Palmistry part-time
Since she’s retired now…

She shakes her head—
“Such a chameleon life, dear,
You poor palimpsest thing.”

It’s true so very true—
Cute Wolf Boy one day
Old Werewolf queen next…


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 03, 2007, 08:04:26 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/c8f/89d/c8f89d13-635b-406a-9d1b-b2349fa159b4)

Blade (1998)

—for Stephen Dorff
   as Deacon Frost

“You can hear them at night—
Humming to themselves in the dark
Vampires give good hum-jobs…”

Stephen Dorff used to be—
Such a cute little chicken in
The Gate (1987)…

But then he grew up—
And turned Bloodsucker
The metrosexual kind…

Hiroshima Maiden (1987)—
Still innocent and goodlooking
But the Taint is there…

I Know My First Name Is Steven (1989)—
Well, that kinda says it all I guess
Kidnapped little male concubine…

Down Dorff goes into Transylvania—
Rescue Me (1993) followed by
Innocent Lies (1995)…

Then a real classic Sucker—
I Shot Andy Warhol (1996) as
Candy Darling oh that hurt!!!

Later after Blade it gets even—
worse playing Boyfriend in Britney
Spears: Greatest Hits (2004)…


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 03, 2007, 08:10:21 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/c8f/89d/c8f89d13-635b-406a-9d1b-b2349fa159b4)

Blade (1998)

—for Udo Kier
   as Vampire Elder Dragonetti

“It’s not politically correct—
For Vampires to be pushy”
Cautions Udo Kier…

“One must be invisible”—
Vampire Elder Dragonetti
Advises petulant Miss Dorff…

“You may wake up one day—
and find yourself extinct,”
Deacon Frost sneers at Udo…

“I was born a Vampire”—
Scolds Elder Dragonetti
“And you merely turned…”

“Forget discretion,” Dorff says—
“We should be ruling humans
not making treaties with them…”

“C’mon, you old queen Vamp—
For suck’s sake, these people are
Our food not our allies…”

“Well, my dear,” Udo says—
“You don’t look very much like
The top of the Feeding Chain…”

“Plus you’re not pureblood”—
And with the Blood God coming
I kinda doubt you’ll be kosher…”

Furious Deacon Dorff gets even—
Lets Udo fry on the beach
Sunrise LA goodbye…

Blade’s blood is the Key—
The Genealogy of Doom rests
Down there in his Loins…

Miss Dorff has a wicked tongue—
“Still playing Human?” he says
Checking out Snipes’ endowment…

“Looks like your mascara’s running”—
Snipes says as Brad feels him up
Admiring Wesley's moody Blood God…

“It’s just sunscreen”—
Deacon Dorff says casually
Licking his lips for the real Thing…

“So pouty,” says Miss Dorff—
“So much more virile than the
usual dead vampire tricks…”

“There’s worse things”—
“Than vampires,” Snipes says.
“Like what?” “Like Me…”

“Your safety’s off” Dorff says—
"Your silver hollowpoint garlic bullets
Can’t protect you now, stud.”

The Temple of Eternal Night—
It waits for Le Mangra the Blood God
Hollywood’s version of The End…

Burned-out Hell’s Angel Whistler—
Played by burned-out Kris Kristofferson
Blade a Buddy Film with Fangs…

“Let’s play a Game of 20 Questions”—
Pointing to the computer screen…
“Okay, like what’s this?”

The Text on the Screen—
Scrolls down hieroglyphically
Reiterating the Old Fear…

“Know any Krell?” Udo asks—
“Maybe Klaatu barada nikto?
See what I mean imbecile?”

“Listen you old Queen,”—
Deacon Dorff snipes back as
Snipes let’s them see it…

“I need 12 inches” Dorff says—
“And I think I’ve found them.
Give me some serum, stud…”




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 03, 2007, 08:32:39 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/c8f/89d/c8f89d13-635b-406a-9d1b-b2349fa159b4)

Son of Dracula (1943)

—for Adeline De Walt Reynolds
   as Queen Zimba

Madame Zimba knows—
Swamp Witch in my fav flick
Son of Dracula (1943)…

Love that scene where—
Lon Chaney Jr. glides slowly
Thru swamp-gas darkness…

Living-dead Louise Allbritton—
Waiting on the embankment
For those suave Euro-Fangs…

Poor Evelyn Ankers—
Distraught Louisiana queen
Mildewing in the wrong places…

Off she goes to see—
Adeline DeWalt Reynolds
For some tea-leaf advice…

Clairvoyant fag-hags—
Where would we be without them
To guide us thru Darkness…

When Men-problems—
Plague us during the night
There on the lonely verandah…

When the bougainvillea—
Groans in the pale moonlight
And we crave something…

When the magnolias get mean—
When the honeysuckle sucks
And nothing seems right…

Madame Zimba knows all—
And so does Ouspenskaya…
Ladies of the Eternal Night…

They can see into Future—
They can see deep into Past
Palest delicate Pluperfect too…

The trick being imperceptible—
Sliding into Now without even
Noticing Flashback deluxe…

Gaze into the Moment—
All tenses Illusionary, my dear
Present participles in drag…



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 03, 2007, 10:11:44 PM
The word "pathetic" comes to mind.

Dorff was really good in "feardotcom," haven't been that spooked since "The Net."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 03, 2007, 10:45:47 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/8d3/39f/8d339fac-1bfe-4532-a5a5-1fddc82f81e4)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 03, 2007, 10:47:02 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/c8f/89d/c8f89d13-635b-406a-9d1b-b2349fa159b4)

The Last Boy on Earth (1964)

—for Vincent Price
   as teenager Robert Morgan

Tagline: “By night they
leave their graves, crawling,
shambling, through empty
streets, whimpering, pleading,
begging to get their famished
lips on his you know what!”

Italian horror cinema—
Another spaghetti vampire flick
By the great Ubaldo Ragona…

Director of such masterpieces as—
Vergine per un bastardo (1966) and
Fiest en el Caribe (1958)…

How strange only Vincent lives—
Of all the millions of people on Earth
Only this nelly specimen survives…

Swishing thru dumpy bungalow—
Hanging bouquets and wreaths of garlic
All over the place in fear of something…

A devastating plague wipes them out—
All except Vincent who’s immune
After a soirée in Central America

Plague victims don’t die tho—
They hang around with Appetites
Hellishly indecent desires…

“Freaks! All of you! Freaks!”—
But they still moil around Vincent’s
Frontyard when the sun goes down…

Vincent’s the last boy on earth—
Naturally unnaturally word gets around
How they crave that young stuff…

After awhile a vast army of zombies—
Pounding at the door for Vincent…
The Thirst resurrecting them each night.

George Romero picks up on it—
The bleak depressing black and white
Night of the Living Dead sets…

Depression has depth grammar—
Based on the novel I Am Legend
By Richard Matheson…

The stark day-to-day existence—
Nothing like a Grade-B horror flick
To make fun of your Paranoia…

Poor Vincent comes & goes—
Reminding one of sad Bela Lugosi
Filmed by Ed Woods toward the end…

Bela coming out of his tacky dump—
Hollywood kitschy bungalow in
Plan 9 From Outer Space (1959)…

It looks so schmaltzy, my dears—
Menacing hordes of zombie creeps
Waiting for the morning commute…

“They’ll get you Barbara!”—
They’ve got the hots for your thighs
And your nice juicy lamp-chops!”

Meanwhile Vincent meanders—
Espresso pot smoking cigarettes
Grim disillusioned too early to die…

Just look at his Looney-Tune dump—
Charlton’s classy old fortress redoubt
So much more swanky and classy…

What does Vincent do for safety—
Other than a couple of loose boards
Across the door and windows?

“Mooooooorgan” go the zombies—
They’ve had lots of practice over the
Past three years moaning for Vincent…

Plus other unintentional jokes—
Vincent tossing broken glass back at
Zombie intruder who breaks the window…

Limp-wrists just don’t help Vincent—
He’s so nelly when he throws things
Worse than campy Tomb of Ligeia…

It depends on the Neighborhood—
Ghetto hoodlums make mean Zombies
Mulholland Drive’s more sophisticated…

Apparently Matheson disowns it—
But most writers are the same way
Except for seminal Graham Greene…

The Third Man (1949) that is—
Which makes one wonder about films like
The Comedians and Ministry of Fear…

Others like Orient Express (1934)—
Confidential Agent (1945), The Man
Within (1937), The Fallen Idol (1948)…

Our Man In Havana (1959)—
The Power and the Glory (1961) and
May We Borrow Your Husband (1986)…

So many of his novels into film—
It must have been good money too
Enough for an estate on Capri…

Vincent Price watches movies—
There’ nothing left to do when
you’re the Last Boy on Earth…

Maybe himself as Arthur Rowe—
Jude Law as Willi Hilfe and Carla
Played by Veronica Lake…

Veronica’s peek-a-boo bouffant—
Playing early noir Blue Dahlia (1946)
Plus Greene’s This Gun for Hire (1942)…

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001294/



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 12:02:37 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/89c/ed7/89ced771-b89c-412e-9cb9-a1e0a290e742)

The Ninth Gate (1999)

“But I think we are seeing a resurgence of the graphic ghost story like The Others, Devil's Backbone and The Sixth Sense. It is a return to more gothic atmospheric ghost storytelling.”—Guillermo del Toro

Del Toro mentions The Sixth Sense (1999) as an example of a return to “gothic atmospheric ghost telling”—but I think that The Ninth Gate (1999) does a better job at such storytelling.

The Sixth Sense reminds me of Henry James’ The Turn of the Screw and its subsequent movie versions. The death of Miles and the ghost of Peter Quint haunting poor Deborah Kerr in The Innocents (1961) seems to take on a life of its own—continuing James’ storytelling beyond the grave and into the supposedly real world of Bruce Willis.

Which is something I’ve wondered about after reading the novel and seeing the film. And that is Peter Quint—just how devilish was he and what happened in that lovely little household before Deborah showed up? The theme is pregnant with ghostly possibilities—most of which are totally politically incorrect. Especially in the shadow of the ultimate vampire Oscar Wilde and his simply disgusting ilk. Just ask any boy in Italy, Capri or Taormina. So shocking some of these louche authors.

I've read that James got the idea for The Screw while dining with the Archbishop of Canterbury who tells the author about a tragic incident involving a boy and his lovely tutor. This incident was the germ of James' further Fabulations into ghostly storytelling. Oddly enough, there’s the strange matter in James’ introduction about the young son there in the estate with amazing 6-inch eyebrows… Which in itself would make a fascinating story...perhaps even supernatural...

The Ninth Gate is disturbing too—although the ghosts all seem to be reduced to banal things like a bourgeois witch’s cult or the politics of rare book collecting or the possibility of these books being sought by a wealthy collector as supposedly being written and specially coded by the Devil himself. Johnny Depp lauches off to Europe like some naïve young Jamesian character out of Portrait of a Lady—and after many semi-occult adventures leaving the moviegoer with a story left open-ended as to what really happened. Action and ambiguity = good storyline.





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 09:26:11 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/0ad/481/0ad48193-0b83-40db-9e35-4a85cb974629)

The Others (2001)

“But I think we are seeing a resurgence
of the graphic ghost story like The Others,
Devil's Backbone and The Sixth Sense.
It is a return to more gothic atmospheric
ghost storytelling.”—Guillermo del Toro

What is a ghost story?

A fairy tale with spooks?

Who are these spooks and ghosts?

Who are these fairies?

Are they the Others?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 09:28:31 AM
The Others (2001)

“Sometimes the world of the living gets mixed up with the world of the dead.”—Mrs. Mills

I was thinking about the questions above last night—as I slipped the DVD into the machine. Del Toro had mentioned The Others (2001) and I had a copy. I hadn’t seen it yet—so last night was the night. When a director mentions a set of movies important to him like those above—I tend to follow-up on it.

Within a few minutes I could tell that Nicole Kidman wasn’t going to be another Deborah Kerr—this was going to be a different kind of ghost story than The Innocents (1961) although it was essentially another version of Henry James’ The Turn of the Screw…

Young Miles (Martin Stevens of Village of the Damned) and his sister (Pamela Franklin) are under the control of Quint and Miss Jessel in The Innocents—while the “Miles” in the Others (Christopher Ecclestion) is younger this time than his sister (Alakina Mann). Both children are joined by their mother (Nicole Kidman)—rather than a governess like Deborah Kerr. The “Mrs. Grose” in The Innocents is replaced by a Mrs. Mills (Fionnula Flanagan).

There are the usual bumps in the night—doors that open and close and lock themselves on their own. Voices talking and pianos playing in other rooms. This time it’s Alakina who like Ofelia is between two worlds—their prepubescent imaginations conjuring up the Others. The other world, the others in it, the whole otherness thing of two worlds coming together briefly and then going their own ways.

This rite de passage between the Others and these 2 girls—isn’t it the main theme in so many fairy tales. Little Red Riding Hood—del Toro suggests in one of the commentaries—could very well be the fairy tale of Pan’s Labyrinth. One thinks of Capitán Vidal as the Big Bad Wolf…

But of course Pan’s Labyrinth has many other fairy tales going on at the same time too. Along with del Toro’s directorial spin—all of these storytelling strategies could be called examples of Bakhtin’s dialogic imagination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhtin

http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exbakdia.html

Fairy tales seem to have something to do with adolescence. In The Devil’s Backbone and The Innocents the protagonists are prepubescent males—all men and women seem to have to go thru these rite de passages. Some say we go thru a series of Others—such as childhood, youth and adulthood. Modern maturity being the ultimate goal, of course—according the great minds of AARP.

Others have called this individuation, active imagination, magic realism, fabulation… Another word for it is “fantastique”—I came across it while reading Mike Mayo’s Videohound’s Horror Show on the Throne just the other day:

“Lon Chaney and Boris Karloff didn’t like the word “horror.” They like I went for the French description: the theater of the fantastique.”—Christopher Lee, Daily Mail, August 25, 1976

Fantastique…





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 04, 2007, 10:11:14 AM
I liked The Others.  I thought it was very well done, going for Gothic chills as opposed to schlock effects.  It had me going throughout the movie and I thought it was one of Kidman's better roles.  Whereas The Ninth Gate was a bit over the top for my tastes.  It seemed like it was going to be a psychological thriller until all hell broke loose and it took on a bit too satanic proportions.  To me, it is better to suggest associations like these rather than explicitly make them, which was why I liked Angel Heart, although in the end the devil had his due as well.

(http://www.dvdfuture.com/images/upload/ahpic5.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on October 04, 2007, 10:22:00 AM
Puget,

you are on my Ignore list.  I think you mean well, but your habit of hijacking a thread and turning it into the Pugetopolis Show is not good for you and your narcissism problem, or for me.  I'm hoping that, if enough forum members adopt this approach, you will be humbled and try to find your way into a more conversational and less attention-grabbing mode.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 04, 2007, 10:23:34 AM
You're right, dzimas.  Suggestion works better than in-your-face devils and demons - works the same way for me with reading as well.  The Witching Hour by Anne Rice is a very frightening book primarily because you don't quite know what is going on.  Once she lets the cat out of the bag in the sequel, Taltos, it's not only no fun anymore, it's downright cheesey.

I thought The Others was well done too.  The way it was filmed was perfect - a dim and strange world that somehow isn't quite right...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 04, 2007, 10:28:00 AM
Barton, it takes a while to get a handle on pugetopolis.  I've come to enjoy his combative style and interesting way in which he puts posts together.  Granted, it does become the Pugetopolis Show sometimes, but there is plenty of narcissism in these forums going around.  Just take a look at our good friend, jbottle. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 04, 2007, 10:33:04 AM
I've been meaning to read Anne Rice for sometime.  I had a friend in Peace Corps who couldn't recommend her more highly, but I was too high minded then to read her books.

Another movie, not as chilling perhaps, but just as suspenseful, was Picnic at Hanging Rock,

(http://i.timeinc.net/who/photos/picnic_at_hanging_rock.jpg)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 04, 2007, 10:42:25 AM
Never heard of that one, dzimas.  I'll have to check it out. 

Anne Rice went all commercial on us about 25 years ago so most of her stuff is downright trash, but she has the ability to do beautiful stuff.  I highly recommend Interview with the Vampire, her best work. 

I'm very surprised that The Witching Hour has never been made into a film - perhaps it is because it's so long and doesn't really have an ending per se - it's part of a trilogy.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 04, 2007, 10:50:37 AM
Picnic at Hanging Rock is one of Peter Weir's early Ausie movies.  People either love it or hate it, it seems, but I think you will like it.  The movie was based on a novel by Joan Lindsay set on St. Valentine's Day, 1900,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picnic_at_Hanging_Rock_%28film%29


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on October 04, 2007, 10:55:55 AM
Dzimas, I wouldn't have gone so far as to Ignore Box Puget, were it not for a recent resounding silence when I've responded to a couple of his postings---after a while, it dawned on me that I was one of several he has put on Ignore, though I've been fairly cordial with him.  I don't put anybody on Ignore, never have, so this is a first for me.

It's my impression that, if he launches a thread on a particular subject, he will, if met with little or no response, then post like seventeen times in a row on that very subject -- it's as if he wants to bludgeon us into taking an interest.  I find this approach pretty annoying and I have no qualms about doing something to get such serial postings off my screen.

  


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on October 04, 2007, 11:01:21 AM
And, just to further bolster my case and eliminate ambiguity, let me point out that I am really disgusted by his personal attacks on people and truly poisonous comments about them:

Jbottle -- Pug accuses him of various forms of stupidity and homophobia -- none of these accusations have on scintilla of truth to them.  Jbot likes to hot dog sometimes...who doesn't?

Madupont -- pure nastiness.  Madupont is an older person with a lot of life experience.  I was brought up to treat such people with respect, even if I don't always follow their meanderings.  His comments about her are vile and backstabbing and seem to reflect some almost pathological degree of hatred.  Well worth deleting from my screen.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:19:25 AM
The Others (2001)

“But I think we are seeing a resurgence
of the graphic ghost story like The Others,
Devil's Backbone and The Sixth Sense.
It is a return to more gothic atmospheric
ghost storytelling.”—Guillermo del Toro

What is a ghost story?

A fairy tale with spooks?

Who are these spooks and ghosts?

Who are these fairies?

Are they the Others?


Children enjoy fairly tales because they are a form of empowerment...the child stands alone against a frightening world.  Adults enjoy fairy tales perhaps because they a a return to childhood memories, or perhaps because they enjoy the idea of magic in the world.  Fairys in the traditional sense, inspire a sense of wonder, while ghosts inspire a sense of dread.   Not many people wish to join the ghosts.

The difference between magic realism and horror/fantasy?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:21:20 AM
I enjoyed "The Others" and "The Sixth Sense" as well.  It's interesting to see stories of hauntings from the ghostly point of view.  I can't think of other movies that have done this aside from the sort of cheesy "Ghost and Mrs. Muir."



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:27:36 AM
Barton...I think that pretty much most forums are about narcisism.  On the good side, opinions are shared, readers begin to see things in a difference light.  On the bad side, and you see this most in the political discussions, people really don't seem to want to rethink their opionions.  They come to convince everyone else that they have the only valid reasoning, intelligence, etc. 

I think Pugetopolis often writes post after post because his mind goes on a tear.  He gets one idea which leads to another and so on. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 04, 2007, 11:27:41 AM
In the kind of cheesy category is Blithe Spirit, with Ray Milland, which I saw a few weeks ago.  But, it was a lot of fun to watch.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:31:01 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot about Blithe Spirit. 

I love the disconnect between modern life and old movies.  I suppose the philosophy of movie making was different back then, but also, technology has made it possible for current movie makers to inject an aspect of realism....and often hyperrealism...that wasn't possible even ten years ago.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 04, 2007, 11:35:12 AM
The writing was so much sharper then, at least in my opinion.  Movies had to rely on dialog to carry the action, as in theatre.  Today, all one needs is a good music score.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:37:50 AM
or shock and awe.....


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 04, 2007, 11:42:58 AM
Barton, the thing with madupont goes back to the NYTimes forums.  I like Maddie as well, but she can rub some people the wrong way and vice-versa so I try not to get into the middle of it anymore.  I figure the combatants can fend for themselves.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 04, 2007, 11:46:04 AM
dzimas -

Did the caption on your cat pic always say "Behemoth the Cat"?  Ironic that now I have a Satanic "gray small terrier" as Martin so charmingly put it - is evil taking over these forums, or is it mere irony? ;)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 04, 2007, 11:46:47 AM
Anyway, I think the movie club has a lot of potential because we can talk in greater depth about a movie, a director, an actor, a genre than we have been able to do in the movies forum.  I don't know if we need two separate fmovie orums, but until everyone accept each other's freedom of expression, it seems we will need two forums, because persons were coming down on pugetopolis for his long posts, so puget got this forum started and I think that entitles him to say pretty much what he feels.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 04, 2007, 11:49:52 AM
Peter Weir is one of my favorite directors.What I enjoy most about him is the fact that his films are so different one from the other.He´s creativity is awesome.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001837/

I choose every single one of his films ,the 10 films I saw.He has never dissapointed me.Starting with The Last Wave.

HOFFMAN, I think that the difference between terror and magic-realism is that the latter does not try to generate fear but just presents the strange as an everyday occurence one needn´t even notice.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 04, 2007, 11:50:35 AM
dzimas -

Did the caption on your cat pic always say "Behemoth the Cat"?  Ironic that now I have a Satanic "gray small terrier" as Martin so charmingly put it - is evil taking over these forums, or is it mere irony? ;)

Behemoth the Cat comes from Bulgakov's Master and Margarita.  I thought it fitting since the subject of horror movies came up.  Too bad there has yet to be a successful film version of the book.  M&M supposedly influenced Jagger in penning Sympathy with the Devil.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on October 04, 2007, 11:51:16 AM
I don't put anybody on Ignore, never have, so this is a first for me.

Geez, barton -- you're downright tolerant.  My list is getting as long as my arm!  On the other points I'm pretty much in agreement, though.  

I really enjoyed The Sixth Sense, and didn't feel betrayed (as some people did) by the quasi-gimmicky ending; but I absolutely hated The Others.  Can't really put my finger on it, except that it got tiresome - like when Buffy says "Okay, okay I get it, you're evil."  I don't recall whether I figured out the twist to The Others or whether it was spelled out, but I just didn't care for it one bit.  I believe we own it, so if anyone wants it, I'll mail it out to you.

On the other hand, I didn't think The Ghost and Mrs. Muir was a ghost story but a love story.  And to that end, the cheesiness (on my part, anyway) was quite enjoyable.   IMO, you have to totally suspend disbelief (come on -- Natalie Wood (as Anna Muir) spends lots of time at the beach, for one thing) to enjoy something like TGaMM; but if you do, it's a great ride.  But that's me - I'm a gushy cheese-lover; it's entirely possible others don't share that opinion.  

For the old ghost movies, I enjoy The Haunting (the old one, Russ Tamblyn, Julie Harris, Claire Bloom) and The Uninvited very much, but even they have their hokey parts where I just kind of groan and maybe go to the bathroom or get some cookies and milk or something.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 11:54:53 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/49f/c11/49fc1186-fd6e-4a8c-91b8-7c3b1e726d54)

The Others (2001)

Alejandro Amenabar’s sense of fantastique—the way the dead don’t know they’re dead. At least some of them according to The Others don’t know it yet—perhaps living in a limbo between both worlds. The way things dovetail at the end of the movie is interesting.

Especially with young "Victor" finally making his appearance...only to ride off in the sunset after a rather revealing seance...   
:)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:57:07 AM
... I think that the difference between terror and magic-realism is that the latter does not try to generate fear but just presents the strange as an everyday occurence one needn´t even notice.

I like the Latin American perspective on magic realism...you're just out doing the laundry or something and a magic rug floats by.  Nice mix of the mundane and the miraculous.

It's odd, because magic realism is often seen in the literature of repressed societies, but somehow for me it has a hominess about it.  Horror, on the other hand, only Lynch makes it feel like home (until he adds his own personal brand of disfunction.)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:59:05 AM

The Others (2001)

Alejandro Amenabar’s sense of fantastique—the way the dead don’t know they’re dead. At least some of them according to The Others don’t know it yet—perhaps living in a limbo between both worlds. The way things dovetail at the end of the movie is interesting.

Especially with young "Victor" finally making his appearance...only to ride off in the sunset after a rather revealing seance...    :)

I wonder....do the dead ever know they're dead? 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 12:10:07 PM
Or maybe what makes ghost stories scary is that we're not certain we understand death.  Just how dead is dead, anyway?


Which takes us back to Ofelia in the labyrinth...her blood running backwards.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 12:16:26 PM

The Others (2001)

I wonder....do the dead ever know they're dead? 


Isn't that one of the "magic realism" questions posed by Alejandro Amenabar?

Nichol Kidman seems to think she's "alive" until the "situation" changes, right?

And so do the two kids...although the girl seems to sense something wrong...

And so does Kidman...but she fights it and the servants who want to help her.

Victor comes out of the future...as a young "Intruder" doesn't he?

There is this complexity to fairy tales...which makes them ghostly.

Both Amenabar and del Toro deal with Time...

The question is... can we think like these directors?

Can we moviegoers...be magic realists too?

Can we think...magically?






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 12:21:51 PM
That's the interesting part...it's the living who are the intruders.  And in the end, only the dead inhabit the earth.

Amenabar has a pretty nice website

http://www.clubcultura.com/clubcine/clubcineastas/amenabar/intro.htm (ftp://http://www.clubcultura.com/clubcine/clubcineastas/amenabar/intro.htm)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 12:23:13 PM
hmmm.the link doesn't work...I'll keep trying.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 12:24:23 PM
http://www.clubcultura.com/clubcine/clubcineastas/amenabar/index.htm


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 04, 2007, 01:02:26 PM
My narcississm is much cooler than Puget's.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 01:40:04 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/c8a/c34/c8ac34d5-b6fc-4a69-ba72-8d666ac5adc2)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 01:55:21 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/260/3b5/2603b533-c120-443a-ad87-2ed55b91bab3)

http://www.clubcultura.com/clubcine/clubcineastas/amenabar/bio.htm

Thank you, Hoffman. A very interesting site on Mr. Amenabar. I like the way Amenabar talks about The Other:

“I wanted to lock a bunch of characters in a house and throw away the key…creating suspense with just a few elements, in an almost minimalist style.”

Del Toro says the same thing about Pan’s Labyrinth and fairy tales in general—keep it simple.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 04, 2007, 02:34:59 PM
My narcississm is much cooler than Puget's.

You say that, and yet you never post any sketches or drawings or whatever.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 02:47:55 PM
We true narcisists like to hog up bandwidth.... :) :) :)


(http://www.moviesonline.ca/movie-gallery/albums/userpics/poster_PansLabyrinth4.jpg)


(http://www.stainlesssteeldroppings.com/images/others.jpg)

(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MG/199773~The-Ghost-and-Mrs-Muir-Posters.jpg)


Non narcissists are also known as lurkers.....


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 04:01:48 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/466/55b/46655bb3-c8ba-4f8f-8ada-b1d8e08de683)

“I started when I was eight,
doing super 8 films.”
—Guillermo del Toro


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 04:11:11 PM
"I started when I was eight...."

del Toro talks about his start in movie making in his notes on Cronos, but better, he talks about his view on monsters and the like.  I'll post it tonight when I get a little more time.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 04, 2007, 10:01:12 PM
"You say that, and yet you never post any sketches or drawings or whatever..."

Yes, well, I'm committed to the written word, it's the form of expression I'm most comfortable with when using language, plus, I don't know how make picture.

"The Onion" has a great M. Douglas picture accompanying his A.V. interview this week, as far as pictures go.

I think they had to have had somebody shoot that as a "faux visionary" look, but with MD it's always been a very fine line between self-parody, parody, and sheer brilliance.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:41:00 PM
"If it's not human it has no interest.  I think that one of the things that monsters represent is everything that is fallible, perishable, flawed, distored, about our nature.  And I think that we have to be at peace with that nature, I love them.  They are the ultimate outcasts.  They are beyond sexism, class struggle, they are beyond anything.  They are truly fringe characters, and I always have a natural solidarity with fringe characters.  When people say, 'Who do you identify with in the movies?'  All of them--the bad guys and the good guys.

del Toro from the director's notes on Cronos.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 04, 2007, 11:51:06 PM
I remember seeing Cronos several years ago and being intrigued.  But, not one of those movies that has stuck in my mind.  I guess I will have to give it a second look. 

Always loved Poe's short story about The Gold Bug, which seemed to be an inspiration of sorts for this film, although The Gold Bug was more comic than than chilling.  I remember Jupiter being forced to climb up a tree to establish a direction in the story.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 05, 2007, 12:06:26 AM
I didn't like Cronos as much as I've liked the other work I've seen.  I was sort of creeped out by the wisdom of the little girl in the movie....she seemed old beyond her years while her grandfather grew younger.  del Toro said he made it a year after his grandmother died and that it was sentimental.  He considered the story a love story about a girl for her grandfather.  The take on vampirism was interesting, though. Quite untraditional.

Here's a blurb about it:

http://www.electricsheepmagazine.co.uk/features/2007/03/04/guillermo-del-toro-collection/



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 02:42:30 AM

"...were it not for a recent resounding silence when I've responded to a couple of his postings"


It’s more a matter of privacy than anything.
I don’t like to drop names like some people do.
Let’s just say I have relatives near Wichita KS
and I knew Ginsberg. Both he and I were published
by Gay Sunshine Press in San Francisco. His Gay
Sunshine Interview (w / Allen Young) 1974 and
Straight Hearts Delight: Love Letters and Selected
Letters 1947-1995 (w / Peter Orlovsky) 1980—and
my Chicken 1979 and Size Queen & Other Poems
1981. Editor / Publisher Winston Leyland. GS Press
like Black Sparrow is history now—but I have many
fond memories of Ginsberg, Leyland and Boyd
McDonald editor of STH: True Homosexual
Experiences who also published some work of
mine. I won’t mention The Penguin Book of
Homosexual Verse—because I don’t like to brag
dontchaknow. I still publish thru Pugetopolis Press—
mostly samizdat chapbooks in this time of POMO
gay diaspora… Unlike many writers, I like to blog
with the masses—aren’t you lucky?
   :)




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 02:51:34 AM

"I think Pugetopolis often writes post after post because his mind goes on a tear. 
He gets one idea which leads to another and so on."



(http://www.impressionist-art-gallery.com/images/MGhaystackssummer.jpg)

“Spontaneous bop prosody—a nickname one might
give to this kind of writing”—Allen Ginsberg, “The
Dharma Bums Review,” Deliberate Prose: Selected
Essays 1952-1995, New York: Harper Collins, 2000

It’s true—I get carried away with the Muse. I have this serious
literary problem—it’s called Monet’s Madness. I’m obsessed with
haystacks and lily-pad ponds. When I see something beautiful—
I want to see it from as many multiple-perspectives as possible.
Like Faulkner—how many ways to see a blackbird? The “Harvard
Snapshot” series and the recent “Son of Dracula” movie series
are sheer giveaways to the Awful Truth. Yes, it's the awful truth.
I’m a writer—I’m the Invisible Boy. Rimbaud is my Master. I lick
his boots every chance I get. Down in North Africa my name was
Djami...but please don't get me started... 
    :)






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 03:02:35 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/0ac/7aa/0ac7aa1c-4ecd-40c9-939e-2e4a0b35df49)

The Boy Cinéaste

“I started when I was eight, doing super 8 films.”

“I was directing before I knew it was called that.”
 
”I was part of a group that had a cinema club so every week we would project two or three movies on 16 or 35mm.”
 
”I'd grab the camera and tell people what to do, and when I was 14, someone told me that it was called directing.”
 
”I'm a lapsed altar boy.”

“So my father had a Super 8 camera and I would borrow it to do movies with my toys.”

“When I was a teenager there was no video in my country. Betamax came to Mexico very slowly.”

—Guillermo del Toro


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 03:05:11 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/0ac/7aa/0ac7aa1c-4ecd-40c9-939e-2e4a0b35df49)

The Boy Cinéaste II

“From the beginning, I wanted to direct, even if was not clear about what it takes. During the first year of my career, I understood its real meaning, while Mateo Gil and I were filming our first short."

“Mateo and I had a friend called Carlos Montero, who also wanted to be a director. He put and announce in his college asking for actors for a casting. Among the candidates from the Escuela Superior de Arte Dramático, there was one called Eduardo Noriega. At first I found him a bit insipid, but then he tried with a Woody Allen dialogue. He acted naturally, he did it fine.”

"I was reading about snuff-movies, and the only thing I had for sure was that I wanted to tell a story about a college crowded with freak fans of image, where teachers were 'the bad guys.”

“I imagined a man who suddenly discovers he is crionized and living in a dream. I talked about that with Jose Luis Cuerda and Mateo, who did not understand why he was crionized. I answered he was an indigent kidnapped for a scientific experiment. But it somehow remind us about an old cliché… Then I thought that he had paid not to know, because his life was a mess.”

“While I was filming Open your eyes, with all those different locations and time flashbacks, I thought I would like to explore a radically different story. I wanted to lock a bunch or characters in a house and throw away the key, creating suspense with just a few elements, in an almost minimalist style. I also felt that should be a good terror film, because I love those films and I miss directors that at least take terror seriously.”

—Alejandro Amenábar


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 03:11:57 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/0ac/7aa/0ac7aa1c-4ecd-40c9-939e-2e4a0b35df49)

The Boy Cinéaste III

“What happens to me is that I
am first and foremost a film geek.”
—Guillermo del Toro

I Was A Teenage Moviemaker: Don Glut's Amateur Movies (2006)

This third boy cinéaste is best known for writing the best-selling novelization of The Empire Strikes Back. Don Glut is a total film geek like del Toro and Amenábar—Don Glut made amateur movies mostly in horror and sci-fi genres with his father’s 16mm camera. Famous Monsters from Filmland covered them—becoming the idol for such directors & cineastes as John Carpenter, Forrest j. Ackerman, Randal Kleiser, Bob Burns, Jim Harmon, Sclott Shawl, Paul Davids, Bill Warren and others.

Rather than quote him—here is a brief list of some of his films:

Teenage Monsters

The Teenage Werewolf
I Was a Teenage Apeman
The Day I Vanished
I Was a Teenage Vampire
Return of the Teenage Werewolf
The Teenage Frankenstein Meets the Teenage Werewolf
Revenge of the Teenage Werewolf
Monster Rumble
The Invisible Teenager
Dragstrip Dracula

Classic Monsters

Frankenstein Meets Dracula
Return of the Wolf Man
The Revenge of Dracula
The Frankenstein Story
Return of the Monster Maker
The Teenage Frankenstein
Slave of the Vampire


This two-disc DVD is a digital bildungsroman,
i.e. pre-youtube nostalgia for those of you
who love movies and young movie makers.
Nice soundtrack by Alex Wilkinson and
Arlidillo, especially "Slave of the Vampire"
  :)





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 05, 2007, 03:18:34 AM
Maybe you should call it Corot Craziness, puget, because if I'm not mistaken Corot painted the haystacks.  Interesting thoughts nonetheless.  It seems the best moviemaking these days is coming from Latin America. Whether it is Walter Salles or Alfonso Cuarón or Alejandro Amenábar or Guillermo del Toro, the movies are always interesting.  It seems like the most interesting young Anglo filmmaker these days is Wes Anderson.

(http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/darjeelinglimitedposter.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Detective_Winslow on October 05, 2007, 03:29:48 AM
The next person to make a Pan's Labyrinth reference is a pedophile.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 05, 2007, 03:33:29 AM
The next person to make a Pan's Labyrinth reference is a pedophile.

I guess that would be you then.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 05, 2007, 07:54:22 AM
Hoffman, it has been years since I've seen Cria Cuervos, but I remember it as a good example of magical realism on the screen,

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/511WemqpXaL._AA240_.jpg)

Criterion has given Saura's classic work the deluxe treatment,

http://www.amazon.com/Cuervos-Criterion-Collection-H%C3%A9ctor-Alterio/dp/B000QXDFR6/ref=pd_bbs_3/105-5791205-4542015?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1191584763&sr=1-3



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 05, 2007, 09:48:39 AM
I kind of liked Nicole Kidman's performance in The Others;her ability to keep the buildup of her panic consistent.

But here are a few quotes from above in the sequence:

   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote
 from: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:59:05 AM


Quote from: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 11:54:53 AM

The Others (2001)

Alejandro Amenabar’s sense of fantastique—the way the dead don’t know they’re dead. At least some of them according to The Others don’t know it yet—perhaps living in a limbo between both worlds. The way things dovetail at the end of the movie is interesting.

Especially with young "Victor" finally making his appearance...only to ride off in the sunset after a rather revealing seance...   


I wonder....do the dead ever know they're dead? 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 12:10:07 PM
]
Or maybe what makes ghost stories scary is that we're not certain we understand death.  Just how dead is dead, anyway?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:59:05 AM


Quote from: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 11:54:53 AM

The Others (2001)

Alejandro Amenabar’s sense of fantastique—the way the dead don’t know they’re dead. At least some of them according to The Others don’t know it yet—perhaps living in a limbo between both worlds. The way things dovetail at the end of the movie is interesting.

Especially with young "Victor" finally making his appearance...only to ride off in the sunset after a rather revealing seance...   
 
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:59:05 AM


Quote from: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 11:54:53 AM

The Others (2001)

Alejandro Amenabar’s sense of fantastique—the way the dead don’t know they’re dead. At least some of them according to The Others don’t know it yet—perhaps living in a limbo between both worlds. The way things dovetail at the end of the movie is interesting.

Especially with young "Victor" finally making his appearance...only to ride off in the sunset after a rather revealing seance...   


I wonder....do the dead ever know they're dead? 
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 12:10:07 PM
]
Or maybe what makes ghost stories scary is that we're not certain we understand death.  Just how dead is dead, anyway

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Lhoffman on October 04, 2007, 11:59:05 AM


Quote from: pugetopolis on October 04, 2007, 11:54:53 AM

The Others (2001)

Alejandro Amenabar’s sense of fantastique—the way the dead don’t know they’re dead. At least some of them according to The Others don’t know it yet—perhaps living in a limbo between both worlds. The way things dovetail at the end of the movie is interesting.

Especially with young "Victor" finally making his appearance...only to ride off in the sunset after a rather revealing seance...   


I wonder....do the dead ever know they're dead? 
quote



"I wonder....do the dead ever know they're dead?" 
Madupont:
As long as they are not soul-less, would it matter?
 






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 05, 2007, 10:19:30 AM

I've been meaning to read Anne Rice for sometime.  I had a friend in Peace Corps who couldn't recommend her more highly, but I was too high minded then to read her books.

There's a reason that your friend in Peace Corps couldn't have recommended her more highly but I know what you mean about "high minded".

I was utterly stunned as I began to read her first book in which I discovered her Irish Catholic upbringing in New Orleans had ingrained a theological way of thinking that was obvious on the pages as I was reading.

Rice had written these as a kind of solace  for herself at the loss of a beloved child. I felt a sudden empathy recalling the ordinary people of New Orleans who are economically stuck there.  As a result, I began to look forward to each of her new books, as if I was cheering on a sporting event, wishing her the accumulation of everything that she didn't have while she was growing up and when she lost that child; and she had it all, including the Garden District house but then she was stuck with the dues part and parcel of dealing with publishers. And alas, she began to lose her worldly goods. But she does leave us this entire genre of something barely touched upon in New Orleans literature
although it is part of the every"day" tradition that you can't help bumping up against as the tourists are taken round by the hawkers and told these stories on site of a number of historic buildings.  On that note, by the way, one of the forebears in my husband's family was a 19th.century architect in the Vieux Carre, with an office on Royale

I agree with desdemona that there was a falling off but nontheless I read as far into Rice's trilogy on the Mayfair Witches as I could manage although it had taken off in a different direction from her original theological references to the undead.  I would't want to have to read it all again to be explicit about what all she covers but it did seem to have more to do with her new environment around her in the Garden District at the time of the writing.

I became interested by the time I was fourteen or fifteen in other New Orlean's writers, particularly journalist Lafcadio Hearn.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on October 05, 2007, 10:19:58 AM
Puget,

I went to put you on Ignore, but had last minute qualms...it felt too much like censoring, even though it is only censoring my own screen.  In addition, I tend to view cyber interactions as analogous to a sort of coffee shop ambience, and the Iggy method felt too much like sticking my fingers in my ears and shouting, "lalalalalala...."

I may still scroll past your purgations and belches, but it will be dependent on whim and mood, and not on software.

Namaste.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 05, 2007, 10:37:14 AM
Found a used hardback at Abebooks of Interview with the Vampire, so I will start here with Anne Rice.  The movie sucked, but I'm sure it was no fault of Rice. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 05, 2007, 10:39:52 AM
Barton, funny to see your reference to The Taking of Pelham 123.  Man, that was a long time ago!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on October 05, 2007, 10:49:17 AM
I remember the title more than the film.  The cat happened to be named Pelham, so that led me to remember the title.  We pronounced his name, "Plum."





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 05, 2007, 11:02:38 AM
I read those Anne Rice books way back and liked them at the time, but I probably failed to appreciate her development of the Vampire myth.  I think I would enjoy them more now.  Or maybe not....perhaps Tom Cruise's face would be stamped on my image of LeStat, or worse, his voice.  Ugh.

Dzimas....I'm wondering if you have access to my Amazon account.  I just ordered Cria Cuervos on the first of October.   :D  I have The Spirit of the Beehive which I quite like.  Unfortunately I have it on video and my player just broke down.  I may buy one just to plug in when I need it.

 



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 05, 2007, 11:11:50 AM

"...were it not for a recent resounding silence when I've responded to a couple of his postings"



It’s more a matter of privacy than anything.
I don’t like to drop names like some people do.
Let’s just say I have relatives near Wichita KS
and I knew Ginsberg. Both he and I were published
by Gay Sunshine Press in San Francisco. His Gay
Sunshine Interview (w / Allen Young) 1974 and
Straight Hearts Delight: Love Letters and Selected
Letters 1947-1995 (w / Peter Orlovsky) 1980—and
my Chicken 1979 and Size Queen & Other Poems
1981. Editor / Publisher Winston Leyland. GS Press
like Black Sparrow is history now—but I have many
fond memories of Ginsberg, Leyland and Boyd
McDonald editor of STH: True Homosexual
Experiences who also published some work of
mine. I won’t mention The Penguin Book of
Homosexual Verse—because I don’t like to brag
dontchaknow. I still publish thru Pugetopolis Press—
mostly samizdat chapbooks in this time of POMO
gay diaspora… Unlike many writers, I like to blog
with the masses—aren’t you lucky?
   :)


Not really. Anyone who want to bother scrolling back to page 18 of this mess will find a quote and a claim about midway between the truth and a hard time,

"Ginsberg. Both he and I were published
by Gay Sunshine Press in San Francisco. His Gay
Sunshine Interview (w / Allen Young) 1974 and
Straight Hearts Delight: Love Letters and Selected
Letters 1947-1995 (w / Peter Orlovsky) 1980—and
my Chicken 1979 and Size Queen & Other Poems
1981. Editor / Publisher Winston Leyland. GS Press
like Black Sparrow is history now".      

AU CONTRAIRE  Gay Sunshine Press apparently goes on forever as there is a market for its material. I thought Black Sparrow might still be extant because Brad Morrow was involved in the archiving and he was Kenneth Rexroth's literary executor.  I probably had the impression they were still going because I recalled some not too long ago publication of Snyder. But John Martin retired in 2002.

I just found it odd that you would presently use Ginsberg to claim some common bond whereas back in the Poetry forum you dished him for having Hepatitis C. This appeared to be a lead off gratuitous post by you because you had previously knocked Gregory Corso as a moucher taking advantage of Alan Ginsberg although that was not the case; it was merely your impression.

http://www.gaysunshine.com/exc_gaysuccess.html        Ginsberg

http://www.wmich.edu/library/special/collections/cooney-blksparrow.php

writers published in Black Sparrow Press (which for a short time became Black Sparrow Books):
01:   True Story by Bukowski, Charles /  
02:   On Going Out To Get The Mail by Bukowski, Charles /  
03:   to kiss the worms goodnight by Bukowski, Charles /  
04:   the girls | For the Mercy-Mongers by Bukowski, Charles /  
05:   Mass For Small Things by Forrest, Michael /  
06:   The Flower Lover | I Met A Genius by Bukowski, Charles /  
07:   Song by Forrest, Michael /  
08:   Not Meaning Not To See by Forrest, Bernard A. /  
09:   2 poems by Bukowski, Charles /  
10:   L'Autre by Loewinsohn, Ron /  
11:   Epilogos by Duncan, Robert /  
12:   poster/poem by Berman, Wallace /  
13:   Lying Together by Loewinsohn, Ron /  
14:   The Curtains Are Waving by Bukowski, Charles /  
15:   A Joining: A Sequence for H.D. by Kelly, Robert /  
16:   Christmas present, Christmas presence! by Duncan, Robert /  
17:   An Oyster is a Wealthy Beast by Purdy, James /  
18:   The- /Towards Autumn by Eigner, Larry /  
19:   LITTLE/a fragment for careenagers by Zukofsky, Louis /  
20:   A Tree Telling of Orpheus by Levertov, Denise /  
21:   The Finger by Creeley, Robert /  
22:   Finding the Measure by Kelly, Robert /  
23:   Statement by Kelly, Robert /  
24:   The Georgics by Economou, George /  
25:   (if personal) by Schwerner, Armand /  
26:   Conversations by Rothenberg, Jerome /  
27:   Greed, Parts 1 & 2 by Wakoski, Diane /  
28:   Poems from 1952 & 1953 by Koch, Kenneth /  
29:   Scenes by Bowles, Paul /  
30:   At Terror Street and Agony Way by Bukowski, Charles /  
31:   The Champ by Elmslie, Kenward /  
32:   air the trees by Eigner, Larry /  
33:   Code of Flag Behavior by Antin, David /  
34:   Please, Like Me by Bromige, David /  
35:   The Gunslinger: Book I by Dorn, Edward /  
36:   Sonnets by Kelly, Robert /  
37:   The Sea, Around Us by Loewinsohn, Ron /  
38:   Hail Thee Who Play by McClure, Michael /  
39:   Salt and Core by Owens, Rochelle /  
40:   Cantaloups and Splendor by Eshleman, Clayton /  
41:   The Breath of once Live Things In the field with Poe by Eigner, Larry /  
42:   The Step by Loewinsohn, Ron /  
43:   Poems 1964-1967 by Rothenberg, Jerome /  
44:   Vietnam by Stepanchev, Stephen /  
45:   Names of People by Duncan, Robert /  
46:   Mr. Evening by Purdy, James /  
47:   22 Light Poems by Mac Low, Jackson /  
48:   Pieces by Creeley, Robert /  
49:   A Play and Two Poems by Kelly, Robert//Loewinsohn, Ron//Wakoski, Diane /  
50:   North Percy by Goodman, Paul /  
51:   The Ends of the Earth by Bromige, David /  
52:   leaf leaf/s by Marlatt, Daphne /  
53:   When the Sun Tries to Go On by Koch, Kenneth /  
54:   The Last Benedetta Poems by Malanga, Gerard /  
55:   Little Odes & The Raptors by McClure, Michael /  
56:   Tree Between Two Walls by Pacheco, Jose Emilio. (Trans. Edward Dorn and Gordon Brotherston) /  
57:   Landed Natures by Economou, George /  
58:   Sleeping with Women by Koch, Kenneth /  
59:   A Bibliography of Louis Zukofsky by Zukofsky, Celia /  
60:   Round the Poem Box by Meltzer, David /  
65:   Krazy Kat by Dawson, Fielding /  
66:   The Common Shore by Kelly, Robert /  
67:   An American Romance by Berge, Carol /  
68:   Fragment by Ashbury, John /  
69:   Greed, Parts 3 & 4 by Wakoski, Diane /  
70:   Shepherds of the Mist by Tate, James /  
71:   The Dialogues by Posner, David /  
72:   A Man Running in the Rain by Stepanchev, Stephen /  
73:   Embroideries by Levertov, Denise /  
74:   If We Take by Bukowski, Charles /  
75:   A Bibliography of Charles Bukowski by Dorbin, Sanford /  
76:   The Days Run Away Like Wild Horses Over the Hills by Bukowski, Charles /  
77:   The Cherub by McClure, Michael /  
78:   On the Rebound by Purdy, James /  
79:   The Magellanic Clouds by Wakoski, Diane /  
80:   Tragedy & Comedy by Goodman, Paul /  
81:   Relation: Poems 1965-1966 by Irby, Kenneth /  
82:   Another Academy by Bukowski, Charles /  
83:   Lydia by Gangemi, Kenneth /  
84:   Solar Journal (Oecological Sections) by Grossinger, Richard /  
85:   Not All I See is There by Forrest, Bernard /  
86:   Xenia by Montale, Eugenio /  
87:   Open Road by Dawson, Fielding /  
88:   Luna by Meltzer, David /  
89:   Black Dream Ditty by Wakoski, Diane /  
90:   A Selection of 65 Drawings by Duncan, Robert /  
91:   The Yin & Yang Radio Repair Man by Dawson, Fielding /  
92:   Gallowsongs: Galgenlieder by Christian Morgenstern by Collins, Jess /  
93:   Green Grass, Blue Sky, White House by Morris, Wright /  
94:   10 Poems for 10 Poets by Malanga, Gerard /  


Anyone else however who wishes to submit "poems" of the Pugetopolian sort may do so by contacting Gay Sunsine Press, San Francisco.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 05, 2007, 12:24:16 PM
Those who can, do.  Those who can't carp obsessively about those who can.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 12:24:48 PM

“GAY PUBLISHING PIONEER Winston Leyland, who started Gay Sunshine Press more than 30 years ago, abruptly shut down operations in April, for health reasons. Instead of looking for a buyer, Leyland—essentially a one-person operation—gave away most of his book stock, though Suspect Thoughts Press was approached in May about distributing some titles. Leyland’s press grew out of Gay Sunshine Journal, an early-’70s newsprint magazine blending literary arts and interviews with radical post-Stonewall politics. Gay Sunshine and its offshoot imprint, Leyland Publications, published more than 200 books over the years, from serious titles like Gay Sunshine Interviews, Out of the Blue: Russia’s Hidden Gay Literature, Queer Dharma, and Out in the Castro, to more than 20 Meatmen collections of erotic art and cartoons... ADAM BERLIN’S  Belmondo Style and Stacey D’Erasmo’s A Seahorse Year are the 2005 winners of the Publishing Triangle’s Ferro-Grumley Awards for gay and lesbian fiction; other winners, announced May 10 in Manhattan, are David K. Johnson’s The Lavender Scare: The Cold War Persecution of Gays and Lesbians in the Federal Government (Randy Shilts Award for Gay Nonfiction); Alison Smith’s Name All the Animals (Judy Grahn Award for Lesbian Nonfiction); Carl Phillips’ The Rest of Love (Thom Gunn Award for Gay Male Poetry); and Maureen Seaton’s Venus Examines Her Breast (Audre Lorde Award for Lesbian Poetry).

http://www.sfbaytimes.com/index.php?sec=article&article_id=3710


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 12:33:38 PM

Maybe you should call it Corot Craziness, puget, because if I'm not mistaken Corot painted the haystacks.  


I'm afraid it is Monet Madness...dzimas.  :)

Here's a page full of Monet Haystacks...


http://www.impressionist-art-gallery.com/monet_haystacks.html

After that...the lily-pads...



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 05, 2007, 12:37:58 PM
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/product-compint-0000737158-page.html

Still in business.  i recalled you speaking of Russian Literature when?

Long ago in the nytimes forums and your great knowledge of the homosexual writers as compared to the political poets like Akmatova, because you had learned about them from friends at the Gay Sunshine Press. (I continue to think there is still a difference between right wing poets and left wing poets, historically, in whatever language but their sexual orientation is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned.)

I would certainly never have given it a second thought until catching up with unread forum postings and coming across your humble admission of where your work  was between something letter of the alphabet and Proust in the school library.

So although City Lights does not cater to continuing to carry brochure publications from the past,since they have their own chapbooks, that doesn't bother librarians a bit.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 12:48:44 PM
Hoffman

I was reading some of the imdb fine print about
the soundtrack for The Others—and found that
“I Only Have Eyes for You” (1934) was sung a
cappella by Nicole Kidman (uncredited).

And that "Vals Opus 69 No.1 (Op. Posth.)
piece by Frédéric Chopin and performed by J
ean-Marc Luisada. I can’t seem to get it out
of my head…very cool, distant and haunting…
Do you have the Luisada CD? The Deutsche
Grammophon Universal one?






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 01:10:31 PM

I went to put you on Ignore, but had last minute qualms...


Qualms? Don't be bashful...go ahead and use Ignore.

That's what it's for. I use it all the time. Plus it shortens

up the pages when I print the Movie Club out... Why have

people you don't like on your screen or the printed page?

Plus it's good for your emotional life...not to be dragged

down by what some say. It's not censorship...it's more

like staying sane in a crazy world.
   :)








Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 05, 2007, 01:57:12 PM
re: Chopin....I know the Waltz, but don't have a recording of it.  I tend to go for Chopin's more fiery works.  But this is interesting.  Two recordings on YouTube, shows what two very different pianists can do with the same material.  I like watching their hands, too.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=DE9ant22c5o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIvxUIA5aZ0

Which one do you prefer?







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 05, 2007, 03:32:29 PM
Anne Rice´s daughter died of leukemia and then she goes and writes all those vampire stories.Life is a metaphor.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 09:03:48 PM
Frédéric CHOPIN: Op. 69, No. 1 (Valse)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DE9ant22c5o

Exquisite. Chopin captures the melancholy atmosphere of The Others so well—thank you very much for the link.

The ghostly piano playing to itself in that scene behind closed locked doors—that scene was enchanting…

And then when Nicole Kidman storms back into the room—only to find the ghostly piano keys uncovered once again. Scene after scene like this—inexplicable seemingly supernatural things happening?

Was the piano haunted? Did it like Chopin?

Inquiring minds would like to know. Like was Kidman going mad like Deborah Kerr in The Innocents? Was it all simply hysteria—the figment of her neurotic imagination? Not until the end do we realize that it’s much more complex than we thought or were led to think.

So much of the literary criticism I’ve read in the Norton Turn of the Screw centers on the supposed hysteria of Kerr / Kidman character. How that ghostly lit crit evolves since James and Wilson—tells a lot about Storytelling itself. And how storytelling both reveals and conceals at the same time…

Henry James as a master at innuendo—like Chopin.

Listening to Chopin’s Op. 69, No. 1 (Valse) now—I’m pretending it’s the ghostly piano in the empty room…playing for me. Like Victor from the future—ensconced in that strange ghostly mansion.

The fate of the children seems perfect in the end—like the same fate as the child in “Erlkoenig” by Goethe. Which is what makes The Outsiders so intriguing—the way both del Toro and Alejandro Amenábar are opening up the gothic ghost story genre again…

Like Amenábar—with Chopin…


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 05, 2007, 09:23:27 PM
Sean Penn doing a good Travis Bickle riff in "The Plot to Kill Richard Nixon" on IFC right now, he's doing some funny, dead-on but subtle Bickle moves, like the time where he walks fast and then goes into a trot in "Taxi Driver," but I don't remember exactly when.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 09:31:25 PM
(http://www.easleys.com/ProductImages/woochie/WitchFaceWO184.jpg)

Interview with a Witch

Interviewer: Why aren’t there any witches in Pan’s Labyrinth?

Witch: Because del Toro is a sexist chauvinist pig who hates witches.

Interviewer: But how can del Toro be a sexist chauvinist pig? After all Ofelia is like Dorothy—there in Franco’s Spain?

Witch: That’s a stupid question. But then you’re just a man aren’t you?

Interviewer: Well, I was the last time I looked in the mirror…

Witch: Obviously del Toro doesn’t care about how important witches are in The Wizard of Oz—the penultimate fairy tale about how poor Miss Gulch suffers the slings and arrows of the Depression—only to be transformed into the most famous Witch of Hollywood.

Interviewer: Well, Margaret Hamilton is a pretty good skanky witch.

Witch: See what I mean? You males are all the same. Poor Margaret Hamilton would be turning in her grave—if she only knew there weren’t any Witches in Pan. It’s just atrocious what we witches have to go through—we get no respect anymore.

Interviewer: In his commentary to Pan, del Toro dishes the Americanization of fairy tales—pointing out how tacky Wizard of Oz looks now 60 years later…

Witch: Witches only get better with age—like good wine.

Interviewer: You have to admit, though, that the Margaret Hamilton witch is somewhat stereotypical—you know the standard old maid Miss Gulch skanky dried-up old bitch type of harpy witch.

Witch: Are you insinuating that…

Interviewer: Please I don’t mean to offend—but like Miss Gulch before she ends up transformed into an ugly wicked Technicolor witch, well, does she really change? Like Miss Gulch is an ugly nosy dog-hating old hag riding her bicycle around—not exactly minding her own business. She doesn’t get better—she gets worse.

Witch: Worse?

Interviewer: Yes, worse—like once she gets her broom and ape-boy minions, she’s the Wicked Witch of Oz. She’s like Capitán Vidal—out to get poor little Ofelia. He could be a witch—just as much as a wolf.

Witch: Nonsense. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Just look at me—I’m a famous Ivy League Witch!!! After all, I have a Ph. D. from Princeton—in Witches, Warlocks and Whatchamajiggers…

Interviewer: Whatchamajiggers?

Witch: Yes, Whatchamajiggers, Whatchamacallits, Thingamajiggers, Thingamacallits, Whatsits, and other Supercalifragilistic Superficialities…

Interviewer: Oh dear me—I had no idea how complex it gets…

Witch: That’s because you’re a standard idiotic smarty-pants writer.

Interviewer: Well, let’s skip that for now.

Witch: You writers think you know everything.

Interviewer: Salem, Massachusetts and many other places held several trials for those who were seen as "evil witches." As a result, many innocent people were killed. What’s your opinion on that?

Witch: I was lucky enough to escape.

Interviewer: Escape? You escaped the Salem Witch Trials?

Witch: Oh yes, and so did all my nieces—all of whom went on to becoming famous opera stars and important officials in the State Department. Why just the other day…

Interviewer: Well, let’s stick with Pan for now. Do Dorothy’s Red Shoes turn you on?

Witch: Are you saying I have lesbian tendencies?

Interviewer: Of course not—have you known any queer Trolls or homo Warlocks?

Witch: I’m beginning to find you rather offensive…

Interviewer: What about the 3 Witches in Hamlet?

Witch: My best friends. What about them?

Interviewer: Do they get down? What a ménage-a-trois…

Witch: You’re just jealous that’s all.

Interviewer: When you’re out flying about on your broom—does that broom handle between your legs give you any skanky erotic titillations? I hear you witches grease your brooms with magic ointments and Viagra salves to get you going?

Witch: You’re a rude male chauvinist pig. CLANK!!!

Interviewer: Hello? Madame Witch? Hello?




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 05, 2007, 10:23:57 PM
The Penn character is actually named Bicke in the movie, so it turns out to have been a kind of riff anyway, nice of Penn to shepard a decent though odd screenplay in the manner he did, and it must've been fun to do a little De Niro, naturally.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 10:50:22 PM
The Penn character is actually named Bicke in the movie, so it turns out to have been a kind of riff anyway, nice of Penn to shepard a decent though odd screenplay in the manner he did, and it must've been fun to do a little De Niro, naturally.

I guess I'm in the wrong forum. I thought this was the Movie Club...

Please excuse me...I do love Penn and De Niro...

But I like Britney Spears better...  :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 10:51:54 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/f23/73f/f2373fa7-f222-4248-be63-5301c258b151)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h863nXDqCM0&mode=related&search

Interview with Britney Spears

Interviewer: Hello, Britney? Britney Spears?

Britney Spears: Yeah—what the fu*k do you want?

Interviewer: Oh nothing much—am I interrupting anything?

Britney Spears: Would I be answering this fuc*ing phone—if I was doing something fuc*ing important?

Interviewer: Well, of course not, I’m doing some interviews and…

Britney Spears: I don’t give interviews. I don’t give a sh*t about anything anymore…

Interviewer: Forgive me—I understand completely.

Britney Spears: You understand nothing—you’re just a smart-aleck fu*king no-good chauvinist pig journalist aren’t you?

Interviewer: Funny you say that. Somebody else just called me that.

Britney Spears: Yeah, well duhhhh. All you men are assh*les…

Interviewer: Well, I dunno. They say it takes one to know one…

Britney Spears: Eat me, will ya? You work for the NYTimes?

Interviewer: Well, I used to. But my boss was a Witch…

Britney Spears: Yeah and I suppose you think I’m a witch too?

Interviewer: Oh, certainly not, Miss Spears. I hope I didn’t offend.

Britney Spears: That phrase sounds familiar…

Interviewer: Oh, I just picked it up from a blog I’m writing for…

Britney Spears: Yeah sure—are you sure you’re not that skanky Detective_Winslow creep that’s been bugging me?

Interviewer: You’ve heard of him?

Britney Spears: That creep called me a muff diver!!!

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/EPH/8142~Muff-Diver-Posters.jpg

Interviewer: How utterly tasteless and crude. What else did he say?

Britney Spears: I don’t give a fu*k what he said—he’s got a toilet full of turds for a brain. And he’s dickless—just as much as he’d clueless about women in general.

Interviewer: All that bad attitude—it’s just awful…

Britney Spears: Yeah just about as bad as you Asshole…

Interviewer: Forgive me, I didn’t mean to offend…

Britney Spears: There you again—just like Detective_Winslow with his slimy caveats saying one thing and doing another.

Interviewer: Like calling you a muff diver?

Britney Spears: Well, duhhhh. He calls people fags too…

Interviewer: He once called me Penis Breath…or was that Jbottle?

Britney Spears: Well, Dickhead—maybe you deserved it?

Interviewer: I beg your pardon?

Britney Spears: So like what question you wanna ask me, dude?

Interviewer: Well, I’ve been interviewing people about movies…

Britney Spears: Yeah, Fu*kface? Like what kind of flicks?

Interviewer: Well, our Movie Club is into del Toro’s Pan now and…

Britney Spears: Yeah—so what? What’s the question?

Interviewer: Well, please don’t be offended—but are you a Witch?

Britney Spears: CLANK!!!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 05, 2007, 10:57:33 PM
I sort of feel sorry for Brittney.  Sure, she's an adult and has made some stupid choices, but it seems like she was put in situations she shouldn't have had to handle from a very young age.  It's gotta be tough begin stuck with morons for parents. 

I was never really impressed with her singing, but she did know how to put on a show, and she worked hard.  I hope she turns herself around.

Won't be checking this until sometime Sunday.  Off to Indianapolis for the weekend.  The museum there has an exhibit of Roman Art from the Louvre. 



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 11:09:37 PM
Please don't leave me with all these Morons!!!!

Oh well, maybe it's for the best...

I'll watch Devil's Backbone...

And get deeper into del Toro...

I know...poor Britney...

But like don't believe everything I write...

I get bored and do Satire dontchaknow?

You're the only one that laughs at my jokes.
  :)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 05, 2007, 11:38:35 PM
"The Assassination of Richard Nixon" is worth seeing for Cheadle and Penn, both do a very capable job in the movie, which subtly weaves it's contempt for the executive branch between the Nixonian era and the present day where there is nothing but contempt for the office.

It's a basic Sean Penn show, if you get all the movie channels look for it.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 05, 2007, 11:49:56 PM
Sean Penn was so cute in Bad Boys (1983).

Oh dear me, how all those sinister, brooding criminal types wanted to get down with him...

And he was such a lovable goof and pothead in Fast Times at Ridgemont High...

Ah those were the days! The dumb naive '80s...

And here we are 20 years later still hot-dogging our way thru what?

Adolescent male egos refusing to grow up...

But hey...don't get me wrong...

Penn is still cool...for about 5 minutes...

Yawn.......
   :)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 06, 2007, 12:08:18 AM
The FILM is from 2004, around the time Sean was doing his IRAQI tour, it's pretty good if you like movies and aren't, well, the obvious.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 06, 2007, 01:03:28 AM
Movie Club v. Movie Forum

The truth of the matter is that I'm somewhat
tired of reality sitcoms, reality shows, reality
news like FoxNews and reality representations
in general...

I'm more interested in something a little more
sophisticated and less propagandistic...

Such as "magic realism"...

That's why we picked del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth
over here in the Movie Club. To discuss it in detail.

It's called a Thread...

Your Movie Forum, jbottle, is a wonderful smorgasbord
of different movies and many delightful moviegoers over
there. Surely there's somebody over there that will talk
about Sean Penn and the war and all that with you?

I talked with Dzimas and some other moviegoers and
the impression I got was another forum about one
movie at a time would be nice. Instead of a water-
cooler gab-fest about "I like this movie" and "I
hate that movie" kind of discussion that really, well,
doesn't go anywhere beyond personal taste...

Just to show you I'm open-minded about movies,
maybe I'll join you and post some non-de Toro
movie comments over there in the Movie Forum...
Like you're doing over here. Would that be okay?
  :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 06, 2007, 01:14:33 AM
Yeah, the only problem, potentially, is that thing about suffering fools, I mean, who does that?

Stick to diatribe, it seems to be you strong suit, seriously, I like movies.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 06, 2007, 01:19:12 AM
Well, then, why not talk about del Toro...

Why fight it? There'll be other movies...

Maybe one you'd like to talk about...

But for now the Thread is Pan...

That's easy enough isn't it?

Why not rent this weekend?

Rather than hot-dog it all the time?




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 06, 2007, 01:26:57 AM
Threadbare, eh...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 06, 2007, 01:33:49 AM
No, puget, I respect the need to be needed, if so, and so, I am on the verge of "ignore," which I generally disavow...

...suffering fools is tough, though, you have to admit.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 06, 2007, 01:54:39 AM

The Movie Club

My main goal now is to simply get thru one movie...

One movie, that's all...

Is that too much to ask?

People act like it's the end of the world...

Just because I started this Movie Club...

And because I'm sticking to one movie...

One movie...

Look back on this Thread...

At all the distractions and kvetching...

Look at the crummy cut and paste stuff...

One lousy movie...what's the problem?

Attention Deficit Disorder? Jealousy?

Give me a break, please...

We're going to finish Pan's Labyrinth...

Despite all the kvetching...

And then you can have this forum...

In the meantime, Carpe diem.

Puget












Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 06, 2007, 01:55:25 AM

I'm afraid it is Monet Madness...dzimas.  :)

Here's a page full of Monet Haystacks...


http://www.impressionist-art-gallery.com/monet_haystacks.html


Stand corrected.  Always thought those particular haystacks were Corot.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 06, 2007, 01:57:16 AM
Seems like we do have similar tastes in movies, hoffman.  I may just order Cria Cuervos myself.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 06, 2007, 02:18:37 AM
Rem Koolhass

The Monet Madness thing...

It's just a narrative thing that some writers use to describe something.

Like Faulkner's twenty or thirty or forty ways of looking at a Blackbird...

Monet used the technique...haystacks offer many perspectives to artists...

...interested in light and way light is different during different parts of the day...

Architects take advantage of it...like Rem Koolhass did with the new Library...

Here in Seattle...glass everywhere and light and openness and beauty...

One of the most open and free and beautiful buildings in the Northwest...

That love of light was Monet's love...even when his eyesight was failing him...

He retreated to his home and lily-pond...painting these huge paintings...

Even blindness didn't stop him...that's how much he loved the light...

It's just a hop, skip and jump from haystacks to lily-pads to death...

Barton and others tell me I write too much...about movies and this and that...

But I'm like Monet...I live in the Moment and I want to write...

Has Paglia, Grass or any other writers stooped to join us mere mortals...

...here in Elba or back in the NYTimes forums?

A few here and there...not many though...

This little space called a Movie Club forum...

The forces involved...light v. darkness...

It reminds me of Pandora's Box, nicht wahr?

"If he tries to climb out into the air as
inexperienced people endeavour to do,
he drowns -- nicht wahr?"
-- Joseph Conrad, Lord Jim


























Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 06, 2007, 02:43:35 AM
The main Seattle Public Library is indeed a very engaging building.  I was impressed by how Seattle had enlisted great architects to give their library system a whole new look.  The new branch library in Ballard is also very nice, if not on the same scale as Koolhaas' prismatic main library.

Architecture has become much more engaging over the years thanks to architects like Gehry, Libeskind, Hadid, Koolhaas and others.  Sketches of Frank Gehry is well worth watching.  Even Dennis Hopper exhaults the work of Gehry in the documentary.

(http://www.sonyclassics.com/sketchesoffrankgehry/images/splash_upper.jpg)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 06, 2007, 02:58:17 AM

prismatic...


Yes, an excellent word to describe the experience
of being inside Koolhaas' idea...

Borges the Librarian...he would have loved it...

As many of us do...here in our little town...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 06, 2007, 02:18:55 PM
I watched Pan with small children and they were fascinated.BTW,so was I.
the counterpoint between a supposedly maigc/terror world and the real monstrous reality is one that never fails to surprise me. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 06, 2007, 02:22:04 PM
Don´t forget Buñuel.He was the first to use magic-realism in cinema, "El perrro andaluz".This style is one of the most difficult in films because any moment it can drop into the idiotic and ruin the effect altogether.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 06, 2007, 04:17:42 PM
]
I watched Pan with small children and they were fascinated.BTW,so was I.
the counterpoint between a supposedly maigc/terror world and the real monstrous reality is one that never fails to surprise me. 


Funny, my brother said the same thing, having seen Pan's Labyrinth sometime between his early summer birthday and the day the Bridge fell on route US 36(?) that crossed the Mississippi River between Minnesota and Wisconsin. He lives on one side but was visiting my sister who was having a medical proceedure on the opposite side. Life in the United States has become all magic realism all of the time for the last six years.

Likewise, your next post:"Don´t forget Buñuel.He was the first to use magic-realism in cinema, "El perrro andaluz".This style is one of the most difficult in films because any moment it can drop into the idiotic and ruin the effect altogether."  Some of us have had that feeling about this second strand of movie fora turned into a club which is what I say to myself about more than one other forum as well.   It's like having your very own George Bush:Decider, to "make your day" whenever you want to post on something else than he's decided is "louche"(another word for magically real in his lexicon).


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 07, 2007, 12:44:54 PM
"Magic Realism" is like "irony," or "parody" or "satire," etc.  It doesn't have any special place in the magic cinema, but yeah, when it fails to do what it's supposed to, boing, you can tell.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 07, 2007, 01:29:16 PM
I've always seen the works of Bunuel as surrealism, rather than magic realism.  In surrealism, the statement seems to be art for art's sake, or politically as a way of imagining a better world by showing the lack in what exists.  There seems to be a more radical element to it than there is to magic realism. 

Magic realism seems to be more about looking for the wonder in the world as it is, an acceptance of sorts, although it seems to have sprung from repressed societies.  It seems a sort of fusion of the physical world of the adult with the longing to hold onto the innocence of childhood.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 07, 2007, 05:07:13 PM
Don´t forget Buñuel.He was the first to use magic-realism in cinema, "El perrro andaluz".This style is one of the most difficult in films because any moment it can drop into the idiotic and ruin the effect altogether.

Like that one about the dinner party and for some reason they're all trapped in the dining room but they don't know why.  And by "trapped", I don't mean they were locked in or whatever.  The doors were open, but for some reason no one could walk through it.    The "any moment" you describe came very early in that one.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 07, 2007, 05:29:04 PM
Are you thinking of The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie? 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 07, 2007, 10:18:22 PM
(http://www.easleys.com/ProductImages/woochie/WitchFaceWO184.jpg)

Where’s the Wicked Witch in Pan?

Nobody’s answered my question yet—why no Witches in Pan’s Labyrinth?

I’m perplexed and flummoxed. There’s a big fat Frog—there’s a tall skinny Faun. There’s an Eyeless Creature Who Likes Chicken—there’s a bunch of Fascist Pigs like Capitán Vidal…

But where’s the Witch?

I guess the standard stereotypical “Wicked Witch of the East, West or Wherever” is, well, politically incorrect today? The only possible Witches I’ve found lately in the movies we’ve been watching are sort of “Good Witches”…like the Clairvoyant Witch in The Others who conducts a séance to find out why the House is haunted. She’s got white-hair and obviously is a well-to-do Lady—plus she goes into a Trance with her eyes turned blind and white when she’s communing with the Living Dead. But she doesn't seem mean—and she doesn’t carp or kvetch or whine on & on forever and ever about everything under the sun and the moon like some Witches I know do.  And besides the Clairvoyant Lady in The Others afterwards can’t remember anything about the furious scribbling Automatic Writing that reveals the Awful Truth. So maybe she’s a Good Witch?

And then there’s the one-legged Witch in The Devil’s Backbone—but again she’s a Good Witch too I suppose looking  after all the Republican children during the Spanish War and hides the gold ingots in her wooden leg for the Great Escape that doesn’t happen. Surely she’s not a Bad Witch like Miss Hamilton even though she goes to bed with one of the grown-up students who betrays them all. Who needs an Evil Witch with an Evil Guy like that? Maybe he’s got a bitchy Anima or some kind of Jungian mind-fuck problem—but I’m not a doctor so I stay away from such psychologizing crapola…

So I don’t know—Evil Witches don’t seem to be de rigueur anymore. At least not like the Good Old Days—when Hollywood turned out fairy tales during the Depression like Wizard of Oz to soothe and distract the moiling unhappy masses.

More recently during the postwar years, for example, there was a whole panoply of Femmes Fatales in Film Noir like Linda Darnell in Fallen Angel (1945) or Waldo Lydecker in Laura (1944). These characters were like Evil Witches in drag—posing in more modern situations of Good and Evil. Evil Witches don’t have to be female dontchaknow—that Waldo Lydecker is truly an Evil Old Queen don’t you think?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 07, 2007, 11:25:48 PM
Why no witch?  Didn't give it much thought until you pointed out the witch in DB.  Do you think it could go back to the respect he was taught for the virgin Mary in his acolyte days?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 08, 2007, 12:40:15 AM

Why no witch?  Didn't give it much thought until you pointed out the witch in DB. 
Do you think it could go back to the respect he was taught for the virgin Mary
in his acolyte days?



Funny—I was just thinking the same thing.

It seems to me that good Catholic boys—whether molested or not by noisome priests resulting in million dollar settlements and divine bankruptcies—have one thing in common. A Good Witch / Bad Witch problem. They seem to have a love-hate affair going on constantly in their minds—like Jacinto (Eduardo Noriega) in The Devil’s Backbone.

Noriega is getting it on with both Conchita (Irene Visedo) and Carmen (Marisa Paredes)—which only complicates his already troubled Catholic school mind. Plus he’s playing another game on the side—with some Franco ugly pigs for some gold ingots. Talk about a mixed-up young man—but aren’t they all?

Noriega reminds me of a younger version of Capitán Vega—but why? One can only blame the Catholic Church for so much—like those million dollar settlements to abused youth who went thru who knows what while choirboys. Perhaps it wasn’t just masturbation—that opened del Toro’s eyes to the “truth.”

Alejandro Amenábar from what I’ve read so far, well, he had some problems adjusting from Chile-exile dealing with “authority figures” in Spain which came out in his early films—and perhaps The Others as well. One wonders how much the Catholic Church contributed to the Rape of the New World by the Spanish neo-nazi Thugs in terms of Aztec, Inca and Mayan civilizations. Or how much the Church had to do with the Peron and Pinochet nazi madness.

Setting the del Toro and Amenábar films in Franco Spanish War Spain is a “statement” in itself—and as magic realism moves from novels increasingly into film there may be further movies made along the lines of  Pan and Devil’s Backbone…

What will they be like? What new monsters will be revealed?

 




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 08, 2007, 08:01:20 PM
Pugetopolis....there was a witchlike of a sort character in Hellboy.  She was the consort of Rasputin and the two of them travelled through time together.  She was quite beautiful, although it was interesting that in the first scene she was two-dimensional looking, but as the movie went on and jumped to present time, she fleshed out.

Desdemona...I can see the fascination with the satanic in this film.  There are also strong Christian overtones.  In a scene near the end, Hellboy has to make a choice whether he will open the portal to hell and allow the apocalypse to begin, there is blatant symbolism involving a rosary and the concept of being marked for Christ. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 10, 2007, 06:15:49 PM
The Haunted Piano

Chopin Op. 69 No. 1 (Valse)

The haunted piano in The Others (2001)…

I’ve heard of haunted mansions—who hasn’t? But I’d never heard of such a thing as a haunted piano—until I saw and heard the one in the Alejandro Amenábar ghost movie.

The DVD is kind of ghostly too—perusing the index of the family album, for example. That’s a pretty sophisticated way of choosing scenes and episodes, don’t you think Hoffman? Each picture of the album is moving and alive—and the moviegoer gets to choose the scenes that way. It’s like the del Toro “Directors Notebook”—where the more serious cineaste can see how the director thinks and delve deeper into the movie with the links leading into the action…

The haunted piano in The Others caught my attention though. Like who’s playing the piano? Is the piano playing itself? Is the piano a ghost too? Is the piano from Kidman’s time or the future? It’s all very tantalizing—especially with the eerie distant Chopin piece. My gawd, it’s surely not Chopin’s ghost is it?

Nicole Kidman hears the piano playing mysteriously at night—she goes to see what’s happening. She interrupts the Chopin piece and closes the keyboard down. Nicole at this point is deep into the ghost thing—not knowing apparently she’s in limbo between worlds?

In this limbo world between Life and Death—do pianos somehow exist? As ghosts? As projections from the Intruders in the future? Is Victor the ghostly piano player from the future? Who’s playing that piano? Kidman from the past? One of the kids?

In the world of the Dead—do pianos have souls? Do they play moonlight sonatas to themselves late at night? Do pianos play Chopin to themselves when they feel lonely?

Or is the haunted piano like us? Lost in limbo not knowing yet which world we belong to? The world of the dead—or the world of the living?

In the meantime I listen to that youtube piece you linked me to—there’s something soothing about seeing real pianist fingers play the piano—rather than ghostly ones playing at night…
  :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 10, 2007, 06:35:53 PM
Pan's Labyrinth

Pan: "She believed in you from the beginning..."

Ofelia: "How do i know that what you say is true?"

Pan: "Why would a poor little faun like me lie to you?"

All the different ways "unreliable narrators" pop-up in movies and books...

Nabokov's Lolita and Pale Fire, for example.

Vladimir is so playful...he reminds me of a boy who never grew up...

All the different ways he pulls the Reader's leg...making fun of himself as well.

Storytellers are like fauns to me...why would a little faun lie?

And yet that's what stories and movies are all about...

I think of OJ and what's his name with A Million Little Pieces...

I think of FDR with his charming reassuring Fireside Chats...

What a storyteller FDR was...like the Wizard of Oz...

We seem to need storytellers to tell us these things...

Whether they're fauns from a fairy tale...

Or Presidents from dustbowl depression times...

Americans have always loved their storytellers...

Sometimes the bigger the tale the better dontchaknow?

We like guys like Vlad pulling our leg in Lolita...

James Mason certainly did that's for sure...

Fabulation, magic realists, scanners darkly...

Maybe we don't want "reliable narrative" all the time?

Maybe we prefer "unreliable narrators" now and then?

Oh grandmother...what a Big Nose you've got etc.

Maybe we just like to be entertained...

Because we're bored...or scared with the world?












Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 10, 2007, 09:42:30 PM
The haunted piano....piano students will tell you that pianos have lives of their own.  Apparently, the only piano they can play perfectly on is the one in their own living room when no one is around to hear them....

But on fairy tales, unreliable narrators and the like.  The more out of control the world becomes, the more people will enjoy this type of entertainment.  The world of fantasy is a world they can control.  And, if they are watching a movie or reading a book, an out of control fantasy makes their own world seem so much more sane. 

"Why would a little faun lie?"

(http://www.boisseree.com/images/artists/Picasso/Picasso_B_0230.jpg)

Here's Picasso's rendering. 

Del Toro said that he used the idea of a faun because Pan would be too terrible.  Pan is shown with horns and cloven feet...probably the origin of our image of Satan.

(http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/Misc/AphroditePan.jpg)


On "The Others:"  I don't own it.  I'll have to pick it up at BLOCKBUSTER and have another look.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 11, 2007, 02:32:55 AM
Looking forward to this box set of Saura,

http://www.criterion.com/asp/boxed_set.asp?id=2000600


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 11, 2007, 03:33:27 AM
(http://www.criterion.com/content/images/full_boxshot/405_box_348x490.jpg)

Dzimas,

Hmm, El amor brujo would dovetail nicely into our del Toro
Amenábar ghost movie discussion. Do you think people tire
of any further Spanish cinema? BTW I noticed the new Mala
Noche release (Gus Van Sant). Probably not many moviegoers
here interested in it tho.  :)

How about Pabst's The Threepenny Opera? You mentioned
it earlier and I liked the idea. After watching Pabst's Pandora's
Box, I'd like to discuss this Weill / Brecht film very much
perhaps.











Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 11, 2007, 03:47:34 AM
I just got The Threepenny Opera in the mail, so I would be up for it.  I have Saura's Carmen, but would be waiting on El amor brujo .


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 11, 2007, 03:49:09 AM
BTW, Pan was the inspiration for Fellini in the famous dance sequence with Sylvia in La Dolce Vita,

(http://jclarkmedia.com/film/images/ladolcevita10.jpg)

http://www.trailerfan.com/movie/la_dolce_vita/trailer


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 11, 2007, 07:35:09 AM
I thought the overlaps in La Dolce Vita and 8 1/2 to be very interesting.  The first time I saw 8 1/2 it seemed to me that Fellini had deconstructed La Dolce Vita, makign it into a more dreamlike journey, which I found very captivating.  So many great scenes standout in this movie, such as the media circus surrounding two children that claimed to see the Virgin Mary.  I suppose it was more autobiographical with Guido being a jaded moviemaker, but then one could say the same of La Dolce Vita. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 11, 2007, 11:30:07 AM
shallow comment, I know, but everytime I see La Dolce Vita it occurs to me that the best costuming award was a no-brainer that year.  How many stays did it take to keep that top on?  The thing defies gravity.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 11, 2007, 12:07:54 PM

I just got The Threepenny Opera in the mail, so I would be up for it.  I have Saura's Carmen, but would be waiting on El amor brujo .


Die Dreigroschenoper, (1962) was decidedly not G.W.Pabst  but Wolfgang Staudte, with such great stars at Curt Jurgens as Macheath (Mackie Messer) and Hildegard Neff as Jenny Diver ( I particular like the "aria",known as Pirate Song, solemnly delivered by Pirate Jenny which, when sung by Lotte Lenya, is filled with vindictive malice for her treatment by a society dominated by men),Gert Frobe as Peachum, and that little known Berliner, Sammy Davis,jr., as the Ballad Singer.

I recently had reason to contact an authority on the lyrics, out in L.A., because I had mixed up some of the lyrics from Army Song with another song in the Oper because it "has been a long time" (I also like Alabama Song as sung by Lotte Lenya) since I heard her rendition;and all those actors above are now dead aren't they?

I worked on two productions for the sheer sake of making a contribution, when The Skylight Theater(then on  St.John's Cathedral Square which can be seen reflected in the glass to the left in this photo from The New York Times as I found it in the Theater Forum here at Melba's Place. http://tinyurl.com/yvykds
on Sept.25th.) because the director,Richardson, was interested in my ideas for the choreography; the other director for whom I had previously worked as an actor in his productions was Helmut Gerhardt from Munich, and who had a lot of lovely plans including pondering where to get the street-organ but, I think as a result of Richardson obtaining the rights for production from Lenya before Gerhardt, that the latter's plans came to naught for the time being. This too was in the 1960s but probably much later than the German film production.

The Pabst production was a talkie from 1931, a review of which you can read for yourself at imdb by someone who doesn't prefer it to the Weimar qualifications.  It occurs to me that Pabst may have made it in French for a more nefarious reason considering the date; post-war, he was persona non grata not having particularly managed to not fail getting his de-Nazification classification. We don't hold that against him as an artist, today but, now is now, and then was then.  So, his film contribution  would be the very contretemps ideologically from Brecht,Weill,Lenya, as the standard internationally agreed upon.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 11, 2007, 12:08:10 PM
PUGET, the catholic church had lots to do with the neo-nazi regimes:Peron,Pinochet and Gral.Videla & co. in Argentina.

Yesterday Chaplain Christian von Wernich was sentenced for having helped the Junta (Videla Arg.) with the people that were tortured form 1976 until 1983.He´d go and tell them to confess quickly to him instead of the militares so they wouldn´t have to put up with pain.Then after confession they were drugged,loaded into a plane at night and thrown into the Rio de la Plata after being drugged.His superior asked forgiveness, so what? Von Wernich was
allowed by him to minister until he was tried ,i.e. two months ago!

Peron in his first years was well seen by the church but then they disagreed over something and Peron allowed people to divorce and marry again and then several churches were burnt (circa 1954).Everybody said that the fall from grace with the *mother church* was what brought Peron´s downfall.

These regimes always agree with the church as they need dominated people.Sheep.

Of course there were exceptions as there were also priests who were *tercer mundistas*(third worldists)  that would help the Montoneros and ERP guerrillas.
We can´t forget that churches of different denominations are great strongholds of power.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 11, 2007, 12:55:27 PM

I thought the overlaps in La Dolce Vita and 8 1/2 to be very interesting.  The first time I saw 8 1/2 it seemed to me that Fellini had deconstructed La Dolce Vita, makign it into a more dreamlike journey, which I found very captivating.  So many great scenes standout in this movie, such as the media circus surrounding two children that claimed to see the Virgin Mary.  I suppose it was more autobiographical with Guido being a jaded moviemaker, but then one could say the same of La Dolce Vita. 


Although it is true that it is all very "autobiographical of Fellini", La Dolce Vita is probably the first film ( I will have to check my source book which was a present to me from the  PUP which gave us gift books each year and discounts until the senior Bush ruined the Princeton Univ.Press with the Reagan tax plan applied in reality)to present his very own personal anima, the mythic giantess whom he films over and over again in his repertoire but I prefer his home-grown version who chases little boys on the beach  for what we infer is a sexual initiation (in either one of the boat houses or "dunes?" although there don't seem to be many of those on camera) that was actually Fellini's experience (although, again, we can see why Anita Eckberg has more antipodal attraction to Marcello!)  Again, whether this was depicted in, Amarcord, or was it in, And the Ship sailed on, too long ago to remember with accuracy but she is a monster woman who reminds you of the Greek Cyclops in her penchant for having an eye out for little boys.

He continues to discuss this important factor cinematographically in the dialogue of almost all of his  films as far as I've seen, she is a thread running through his psyche which has brought his films into being, The Great Mother or Magna Mater of the Roman past, and he likes to give you both sides of her as Pagan Goddess, and "Madonna" as he discussed mother,mothers,wives and mistresses, on one occasion in, Roma, bringing out Anna Magnani because Rome is a mother, a she-wolf, and not Father Roma.

I admit, I clocked scenes in, 8 and 1/2, with a stop-watch to understand  the nature of his transitions to carry the film forward and his camera-work, from the very beginning when that occurred to me. It was obviously, in that direction, the more important film from a woman's point of view than La Dolce Vita but I can't think of a man who hasn't loved LDV.

But my personal favourites are somewhat different: his Satyricon, as his own compared to Petronious Arbiter, for which Fellini had laid the foundations in his 8 and 1/2, with themes on the cultic life , in passing before the camera in 8 and 1/2, are then fully culturally explored  in, Satyricon.

Spirits of the Dead, includes a couple of cameos, particularly: Never Bet the Devil your Head (or,otherwise known as )Toby Dammit,with Terence Stamp and the Maserati.

The White Sheik is a lesser but it has hilarious moments with Alberto Sordi, which I think spins off from Fellini's earlier exploration of, Variety Lights, about a traveling acting company and is thus related to La Strada but in a different emotion although the theme of a woman's infatuation with a star/the big man is obvious. Sad in La Strada, pitiful as love may be; but humored in,The White Sheik.

I have no idea in which of his films that I saw this, possibly in, Roma, but one of my favorite passages, since Fellini does "passages before the camera", is a fashion show of Ecliesiastical fashions modeled by many clerics of varying hierarchical importance swooping and swishing their clerical vestments rapidly upon the catwalk to appropriate music in brilliant color of course.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 11, 2007, 01:03:18 PM
Ps, don't let anyone tell you differently but Fellini is what Italians believe in as Neo-realism, historically post-war or post-Mussolini's style.

One further Ps., Marcello became more attractive as he added years of maturity to his horn-rimmed vapidness of just another Roman fashion plate who happened to be what Italians call "blond".  To get a three in one shot which includes his acting qualities along with those of Jeanne Moreau,you have to get a copy of Antonioni's,La Notte


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 11, 2007, 04:10:15 PM
Interesting thoughts as usual, maddie.  8 1/2 did indeed seem more technical, if that is the right word, with Fellini setting up scenes more than creating a cinematic flow, which is what I found so appealing about La Dolce Vita, not to mention Anita Ekberg's gravity defying dress.  Both draw heavily on religious and mythological symbolism.  8 1/2 seems downright Jungian.  I often wonder if he wasn't completely satisfied with La Dolce Vita, or if he thought it too Hollywood (having courted a big time Hollywood producer) and felt compelled to make 8 1/2.  Anyway, I like both movies very much, and would love to discuss them in more detail at some point.  It seemed Sylvia's husband was a reference to de Laurentiis insisting on a big time actor to play the lead role. I really can't imagine anyone other than Mastroianni.  He literally made the role his own.

(http://cinegor.granadaenlared.com/00403.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 11, 2007, 11:52:44 PM
One of my favorite Fellini films is Amarcord, just as a favorite Bergman is Fanny and Alexander, a favorite Spike Lee is Crooklyn, a favorite Barry Levinson is Avalon, a favorite Truffaut is The 400 Blows, favorite (& only one seen) Tornatore is Cinema Paradiso...

I'm sure there are others I've seen but can't now recall, and would love to hear of others of the type.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 12, 2007, 12:35:32 AM
I thought Crooklyn was one of Spike Lee's weaker efforts.  I got a nice 5-pack of Spike Lee,

http://www.amazon.com/Collection-Clockers-Jungle-Better-Crooklyn/dp/B000E40QC4/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-4086232-9828850?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1192163627&sr=1-2

I still like Do the Right Thing the best.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 12, 2007, 01:06:52 AM
Quote
I thought Crooklyn was one of Spike Lee's weaker efforts.

Judging it as a film, of course it's weaker than Do The Right Thing, as are many other films by many other filmmakers.  I'm just saying it's one I particularly relate to. as I do coming-of-age stories of many varieties.     


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 12, 2007, 01:17:35 AM
Hard to believe that it was so long ago (1989) but Do The Right Thing made a huge impact in the movie world.

(http://www.filmreference.com/images/sjff_01_img0141.jpg)

Danny Aiello was great, as was the whole cast for that matter.  A movie I can watch over and over again.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 12, 2007, 09:45:12 AM
Dzimas,

My favourite Aiello is Dinner Rush (2000) known in the industry as a sleeper, New Jersey director: Bob Giraldi , who usually does musician-oriented features/documentaries.  This is a classic for those who know how Italian restaurants are run, what their purpose is, and how they serve the neighborhood.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 12, 2007, 09:49:14 AM
Second favorite Aiello, as always, Moonstruck, in which he is like so many guys I have known. Devoted to his mother, family and community- oriented, ready to get married and the loser to his one-armed bandit of a crazy baker Nick Cage who has inspired Cher to get younger.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 12, 2007, 09:52:06 AM
Okay,Dzimas, so in which Spike Lee did Rosie Perez do her little dance?
(and Go big time...)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 12, 2007, 09:56:50 AM
And, although his documentary on New Orleans has not been mentioned nor is it my favorite, it is the one in which Spike Lee demonstrated for the camera that white folks can be very funny if they live in the right neighborhood, and are probably funnier in general than white people who say they understand Metairie because they have a cousin there 'in the suburbs' whom they have visited once or twice.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 12, 2007, 10:01:43 AM

PUGET, the catholic church had lots to do with the neo-nazi regimes:Peron,Pinochet and Gral.Videla & co. in Argentina.

Yesterday Chaplain Christian von Wernich was sentenced for having helped the Junta (Videla Arg.) with the people that were tortured form 1976 until 1983.He´d go and tell them to confess quickly to him instead of the militares so they wouldn´t have to put up with pain.Then after confession they were drugged,loaded into a plane at night and thrown into the Rio de la Plata after being drugged.His superior asked forgiveness, so what? Von Wernich was
allowed by him to minister until he was tried ,i.e. two months ago!

Peron in his first years was well seen by the church but then they disagreed over something and Peron allowed people to divorce and marry again and then several churches were burnt (circa 1954).Everybody said that the fall from grace with the *mother church* was what brought Peron´s downfall.

These regimes always agree with the church as they need dominated people.Sheep.

Of course there were exceptions as there were also priests who were *tercer mundistas*(third worldists)  that would help the Montoneros and ERP guerrillas.
We can´t forget that churches of different denominations are great strongholds of power.



This reminded me what I actually came in here about to post to Dzimas although martinbeck3 may have to wait longer to see this round of applause for
Barbet Schroeder's, Terror's Advocate, on Jacques Verges, reviewed this morning for opening:
http://movies.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/movies/12terr.html?8dpc


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on October 12, 2007, 10:03:35 AM
Oh, my G-d!!  Somebody else has heard of Dinner Rush!  madupont, we absolutely love that movie, even though (IMO) it's basically Bob Giraldi saying "Yeah, I can make a Marty Scorcese movie, easy."  I prefer to think of it as an homage.  DR has so many great little moments -- "star chef" said mockingly, "double stripe", "Revenge is best eaten cold," the art critic guy who keeps bumming wine -- I'm so glad you like it, too.

Bob Giraldi is perhaps best known for directing the Michael Jackson video "Beat It."  I know him from directing commercials, as that was my father's business.  (clarifying -- know of, not know "know" him)   I can't believe I almost forgot, he also did the Pat Benatar epic video, "Love is a Battlefield."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 12, 2007, 04:30:49 PM
Cinema Paradiso is a magnificent tribute to all true moviegoers.The last seen is unforgettable.The music,the best.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 12, 2007, 06:10:36 PM

Oh, my G-d!!  Somebody else has heard of Dinner Rush!  madupont, we absolutely love that movie, even though (IMO) it's basically Bob Giraldi saying "Yeah, I can make a Marty Scorcese movie, easy."  I prefer to think of it as an homage.  DR has so many great little moments -- "star chef" said mockingly, "double stripe", "Revenge is best eaten cold," the art critic guy who keeps bumming wine -- I'm so glad you like it, too.

Bob Giraldi is perhaps best known for directing the Michael Jackson video "Beat It."  I know him from directing commercials, as that was my father's business.  (clarifying -- know of, not know "know" him)   I can't believe I almost forgot, he also did the Pat Benatar epic video, "Love is a Battlefield."


harrie, I not only "heard " of:  Dinner Rush but I could watch it over and over because it has so many nuances that I recognize.  It is a little like going to your favourite, preferably smaller town Italian restaurant -- where you can do some "people watching" as they say in smaller towns where the  Italian restaurants might even be safer.   I mean, I feel as if it personally touches my life, how did you like Polly whats-her-face(Walker?), formerly of Thirty Something? She was the very epitome of a proprietor's mistress. Giraldi not only made a Scorsese movie, he made a better Scorsese movie. (Of course, we have to allow for making allowances that Martin Scorsese has gone on to other interesting areas of life; I occasionally catch one of these after the fanfare and hoopla is over).

However, I know what you mean,"know of, not know "know" him" because I have to opt out when telling lulu of my television viewing plans recently; how some people resent if and when you do know what you know no matter who knows it. Because, watching Law and Order for years in the various confabulations of real life straight from the news, having gone through all these actors, I was looking forward to watching Noth(Mr.Big) do Criminal Intent
last night but missed first half because I totally forgot it was on USA. And it didn't play so hot, through no fault of who I know because I knew him when but, more of, rather than not  know, since he was one of many artists in a group of art students who were all friends for many years, so we were acquainted rather than  deeply knowing each other. I think that I had last seen him around Christmas of 1981 at one of the mutual friend's big 50 birthday party; but then suddenly ran into him in an unexpected place like the Guggenheim summer home which is part art museum on a New Jersey campus,in autumn 1982. In retrospect this all makes sense that it would lead to being one of the producers of the Law and Order programming, who did 80 something episodes from 2001 through 2007 (and earned an Emmy). Every now and then, I see his name go by.

Speaking of Michael Jackson, one of the rarest moments when I wrote up my take on greatest real Marlon Brando movies was the discovery that he regularly went up to Neverland to visit with Michael and that they had been friends for many years.   Not odd considering, I still think one of my favorite Brando films is,Reflections in a Golden Eye, with Elizabeth Taylor watching him ride off at dawn above the flashy chestnut haunches of his horse dappled by the sunlight through the moving leaves between her window and the perfectly uniformed Southern military gentleman who is her husband "discovering his homosexuality"; or, John Huston does Carson McCullers.

Here are some of the lines:"Have you ever been collared and dragged out into the street and thrashed by a naked woman?" as said by Liz.

Here's another by Julie Harris who plays his mother,"Alcoholics, paresis, senility. My God. What a choice crew."

Last but not least(and I found these by accident, having read the book in my childhood),  LEONORA/liz says to Weldon/marlon,"So, Firebird's alright, is he?(her horse?)
Leonora: [Lashes him across the face with her horse whip]

Somehow, I THINK there was more to movies back then. I MEAN, as Julie Harris would have said, "who needs 'MAGIC REALISM' when you have real life,dahlin' ?"  Carson McCullers could write with the best of them,Tom Williams,any day or night.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 12, 2007, 07:23:11 PM
Pan's Labyrinth


"Mme Olype Fraisse relates that
in the woods of Bordeac, Gard,
a faun subjected her 66 years
to prodigious abuses..."

--Julian Barnes, "Behind the
Gas Lamp," LRB 4/10/2007



There, I think we've pretty much covered
del Toro and Pan's Labyrinth. Thank you,
dear cineastes, for pretty much sticking
to one film. I know it's difficult with so
many exquisite movies out there to
schmoooooooze and chat about but I've
pretty much accomplished my goal of
doing at least one movie/genre in the
kind of depth that, well, goes a little
beyond TV Guide...  :)











Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 13, 2007, 03:16:59 AM
Cinema Paradiso is a magnificent tribute to all true moviegoers.The last seen is unforgettable.The music,the best.

It's kind of the Italian version of It's a Wonderful Life.  I liked Stanno tutti bene (Everybody's Fine) by Tornatore,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100681/


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 13, 2007, 11:47:07 AM
Maddy...

May I ask if you've seen
Pabst's Pandora's Box yet?
  :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 13, 2007, 06:53:26 PM
If anyone has seen both, how does Dinner Rush compare to Big Night?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 13, 2007, 07:21:09 PM
oh, they are both gorgeous, for different reasons. Stanley Tucci's piece de resistance centers on food of an extraordinary kind, one recipe of which was definitely an Emilia Romagna speciality that takes stamina and concentration to prepare and requires a large group of diners at your table so it is very intimidating because you don't want to fail in your attempt to prepare it for them and that begins to require a lot of practice attempts to pull it off.   The cast is interesting, and it reminds me of places in north Jersey, possibly it was set in Hoboken, I don't recall; if Sinatra had been coming to dinner instead of Louis Prima, I'd have been right on the button.

Danny Aiello's, Dinner Rush is a convoluted drama consisting of many little well-honed slices in miniature of how people behave when socially out to dinner. Some of the behavior is indisputably indicative of out to lunch but nevertheless, the things you have to put up with in that business of running a successful establishment.  Everything from the  sharp intuitive bartender to the affected girls being presented with unusual creations of cuisine who are so blase about dining out in New York. I have to caution you there is a mystery involved here, a crime, and all the players are in place, you know that as they reveal themselves but will never catch on how it will go down. The house is one level with the show-offy wine connoiseur who imposes on the waitress, the people who  have pretensions about the art on the wall; and then there is the kitchen involving discipline, even when there are differences within the family; and then there are pertinent people with lives involved in this place who are right down the street when all of the average evening's activities are going down.  It is a many layered creation and in that sense resembles Stanley Tucci's tympano but the only thing you wait for is the guest to arrive in The Big Night.  With the,Dinner Rush, you don't know what to expect, life is full of surprises, and you have to accept them for what they are.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on October 13, 2007, 09:32:22 PM
What madupont said.  She pretty much covered it. 

I also love both Big Night and Dinner Rush.  BN feels more like I'm watching a stage play being filmed.  I'd say it has a snootier feel, which is not a rip, as I like snoot well enough.  It just feels arty to me, and I never for one second forget that I am watching a performance by artists. 

DR, on the other hand, feels....not like a documentary by any means, but like you're caught up in the crazy pace that is a New York restaurant*.  (Or just about any restaurant, from what I've seen/read.)  You get bits and pieces of conversations that advance the plots; and while it doesn't feel quite like you're eavesdropping from the next table, sometimes it comes close to that. 

The director of DR, Bob Giraldi, also cast the bit (but key) parts extremely well; they seem like real New Yorkers and I am sure, are.  (One caveat -- I'm saying this as a chick who's almost always lived in the NY suburbs and gets into NYC a couple of times a year at best.  But they seem authentic to me, for what that's worth.)

So to echo madupont, I wouldn't call one or the other better or worse, they're just very different animals.  Or apples and oranges, if you want to stick with the whole food theme. 

*Bob Giraldi owns a restaurant in New York, which is where DR was shot.  I get the feeling that a lot of the little story details are things he noted on a napkin or something while eating and/or hanging there.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on October 13, 2007, 09:44:09 PM
madupont, do you think Polly Draper played Aiello's mistress?  I took the story at its word that she was his old partner's daughter.  But then, I'm really gullible. The little Italian place down the street from me is run by a petite woman in her 80s (but she'll kick your ass), so the proprietor's mistress thing never comes up. But the high school football team eats really well.

By affected girls, do you mean Sandra Bernhard and companion?  I thought she showed near-genius in skewering the whole food writing business or, these days, phenomenon (doo-doooo, de doodoo).  Her boorishness was essentially a caricature, but I really enjoyed it.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 13, 2007, 09:46:34 PM

Maddy...
May I ask if you've seen
Pabst's Pandora's Box yet?
 :)


I guess not...

So, dzimas, I just wanted to mention that...

Hoffman has the Criterion Pandora's Box...

And soon she'll be getting Three Penny Opera...

Either Pabst film or both would be okay with me...

That would give us a three-way forum, so to speak...

I watched the "Lulu in Berlin" commentary on the 2nd disc last night...

And am reading the Hoberman essay in the included booklet...

So Weimar cinema might be interesting to get into...

BTW thanks for your support earlier backing me up...

Trying to keep the chosen movie focused is, well, challenging.
 :)








Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 13, 2007, 10:12:34 PM
I watched "Pandora's Box" earlier this week.  Over the next few days, I'll be watching the commentary and second disk and reading the book. 

I can be ready to discuss by the end of the week. 

Dzimas...I watched Saura's "Cria Cuervos" on Friday.  I'm not sure what to make of it yet.  It's difficult to know what is real and what is imagined.  Definitely deserves another viewing.  I know you mentioned you have "Pandora's Box" and "Three Penny Opera."  Might you be up for discussion? 

Anyone else interested in these movies? 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 13, 2007, 11:45:09 PM
Thanks folks, looks like I'll be looking for Dinner Rush real soon.

Another foodie movie my hubs loved was Babette's Feast.

Lhoffman: I love Die Dreigroschenoper but have never seen a movie version, will check the SF library's collection.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 14, 2007, 01:36:52 AM

Maddy...
May I ask if you've seen
Pabst's Pandora's Box yet?
 :)


I guess not...

So, dzimas, I just wanted to mention that...

Hoffman has the Criterion Pandora's Box...

And soon she'll be getting Three Penny Opera...

Either Pabst film or both would be okay with me...

That would give us a three-way forum, so to speak...

I watched the "Lulu in Berlin" commentary on the 2nd disc last night...

And am reading the Hoberman essay in the included booklet...

So Weimar cinema might be interesting to get into...

BTW thanks for your support earlier backing me up...

Trying to keep the chosen movie focused is, well, challenging.
 :)








We can do both, starting with Pandora's Box, and see where it goes in regard to Weimar cinema.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 14, 2007, 06:45:30 AM

We can do both, starting with Pandora's Box,
and see where it goes in regard to Weimar cinema.



Excellent.

This is going to be quite a Movie Club discussion...

I look forward to these two very sophisticated films....

And probably one of the most interesting periods of Film...

German Weimar cinema...






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 14, 2007, 01:12:38 PM
Harrie,  re:#426 and #427

I agree. That waiting for Louis Prima significance to The Big Night does make it feel like you are watching at least the dress-rehearsal of a stage performance; in so far as they couldn't spend all their time with the camera in the kitchen (but I do love watching chefs, who are men, work as long as it is in their real setting, the kitchen, and not somebody being a tv celebrity. With of course the exception of Vincent Schiavelli, oft mentioned by me.

"...also cast the bit (but key) parts extremely well"  You betcha, there's even another Giraldi family member in the cast of Dinner Rush. How better to maintain an interest in a future related career in show biz. But, I am enthused about the Giraldi creation of names for the characters in his production, having forgotten by now that this was Sandra Bernhard,could anything have dubbed her better than "Jennifer Freely".
(although there are two other uncredited dinner guest and uncredited patron, both female, so I am not entirely certain after the interim until I see that scene again with the exotic freebies that were served to two young women, one of whom said she ate there all the time.  Unless, I'm wrong didn't this have a connection to the bartender's love life or some other important person amidst the family employ?). 

Naming may have been entirely done by the writers, but Danny Aiello's "Louis" is so sweet,and can you believe for a moment that his former partner's (murdered in an alley wasn't he?) daughter isn't his mistress with a name like: Natalie Clemente ( had forgotten that her name is Draper and not Walker). Family responsibility is family responsibility after all.

Another very humorous piece of the dialogue is in the food-ordering of the guys who are Louis' competition at book-making( if anybody asks me at this point some technical question like why do you have to cut the pages? as happened in Latin American Literature about Borges, let me say up front this is not an example of that kind of book.

In my home town, they closed down one of our preferred first class restaurants, a very quaint place with its own French Market flower stalls on the weekend, compiled of wonderful wrought iron architecture--as it may have once been a trolley station in an earlier century--, because the so-called "back room" was more like the whole upstairs second floor devoted to book-making as well as gambling, since guys need to have some place to handle these transactions as well as relax; favoured patrons allowed to bet. Yes, it is true, I learned to play roulette early but not there. With that closing,another good space was found for the action, which remained sub rosa  or under that Tutti a tavola...,above a vacant garage where the proprietor of a well-known coffee house --with after hours/hours, because guys must have a place to discuss business after bar - closing, although in the neighborhood per se  family pizzerias are functional as a rule like religion ala religare -- put his mistress into the front upstairs apartment,that did have a nice roof out-back, such as garages do have, for a look all around[my first home in life, above an Austrian bakery had one of these] but of course there was a relatively large, very, enclosed space disguised, beyond her kitchen, between her apartment and the open roof.)-- Now where was I? oh,yeah, the guys want a percentage of Louis' restaurant and guys are the same everywhere so choose your restaurant carefully.

But that is why I have no doubt that Natalie(Polly Draper) Clemente was Louis' mistress, after all, he was probably her god-father if he and her father went back a ways as partners.

Did I leave anything out?   My favourite Italian restaurant?  A place known as High Lawn Pavillion atop Eagle Rock park in West Orange, New Jersey, where they have the nicest waiter who is a  combo somewhere between the guy who played Proust( in Time Regained) Marcello Mazzarello  and  Javier Bardem. Not bad, hey? The other view is over the Hudson to the Manhattan skyline. This place, has become an official memorial viewing site of the damage that was the World Trade Center, out in the parc where somewhere up there Marconi had his test radio transmitting site, Thomas Edison shot up here--movies that is.

http://www.firstbaptistbloomfield.org/westorange.htm   

You will have to scroll half way  down through the historic material to see the Casino as it was, which has had a  complete renovation of the interior in the Northern Italian style built within the original foundations of the architecture so that there is now a terrace on the sunny side of the building as it faces you in the pictures. It is a handy place when crossing the river either from North Jersey to Manhattan or vice-versa, to stop for lunch  or dinner depending on which direction you are headed.  As I said, the guys are the same everywhere; when I went in to catch the Gentileschi exhibit at the Metropolitan, it is automatically assumed you are headed for the opera house. They have a large reproduction of the barrel-top painted Caravaggio on the wall that looks down upon the interior of their entrance or vestibule which stands open before their glassed-in kitchen where you can see the fire burning for pizza baked over open fire, when you pass to the main dining room. I could only be happier if I moved back to the neighborhood, don't you think?

As my next trip, I am holding out to see a performance of  Pirandello's, Six Characters in Search of an Author.  Closer to Paoli? I love that play.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 14, 2007, 03:57:42 PM

"Did I leave anything out?"   



I don't think so...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 14, 2007, 06:24:09 PM
]
Ps, don't let anyone tell you differently but Fellini is what Italians believe in as Neo-realism, historically post-war or post-Mussolini's style.

One further Ps., Marcello became more attractive as he added years of maturity to his horn-rimmed vapidness of just another Roman fashion plate who happened to be what Italians call "blond".  To get a three in one shot which includes his acting qualities along with those of Jeanne Moreau,you have to get a copy of Antonioni's,La Notte


http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/98299/La-Notte/overview


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 03:11:53 AM
(http://www.ideofact.com/archives/Lulu2.jpg)

The Tynan-Brooks Interview

“First sequence: Lulu in the art-deco apartment in Berlin where she is kept by Peter Schön, a middle-aged newspaper proprietor. (In this role, the great Fritz Körtner, bulky but urbane, effortless in the exercise of power over everyone but his mistress, gives one of the cinema’s most accurate and objective portraits of a capitalist potentate.” Dressed in a peignoir, Lulu is casually flirting…”—Kenneth Tynan, “The Girl in the Black Helmet,” The New Yorker, June 11, 1979

The Tynan-Brooks interview is excellent—great minds think alike. That’s what everyone says in the commentaries and features on the second disc of Pandora’s Box. How smart and quick she was—on both sides of the Atlantic…

This created great jealousy on the set of Pandora’s Box—and within the power-playing Hollywood studio system shifting over to sound and cutting the salaries in half. She said no—and sailed off to Germany to Pabst. The producers never forgave her...

The day Brooks sent a telegram to Pabst telling him she’d do the film—Marlene Dietrich was in his office getting ready to sign the contract. Pabst says Dietrich was too old and known then—he wanted somebody fresh and new.

All of Germany was aghast—this unknown actress from Kansas!!! But she was perfect for what Pabst had in mind—and from the minute they met it was a tango of cinematic style and precision. Pabst paid attention to his actresses—wanted them to relax and be themselves. He wanted them to wear their own clothes—and be natural in front of the camera.

The crisp black & white art deco apartment at the movie’s beginning sets the stage for this very slick Weimar sophisticated film. The commentators say Körtner didn’t like Brooks—which may be true. He seems enthralled by her tho—just as his son and Jack the Ripper are. Which says a lot—about Louise… and why Pabst perhaps had a dream of another Garbo... Some directors are like that... they recognize style and class. Hawkes liked Brooks too... she was smart as a whip he said.

Maybe too smart some say...but then how much is too smart?   :)

An Revealing Interview Fragment:

Interviewer: Do you think there are countries that produce particularly good lovers?

Brooks: Englishmen are the best. And priest-ridden Irishmen are the worst.

Interviewer: What are your favorite films?

Brooks: An American in Paris, Pygmalion, and The Wizard of Oz. Please don’t be disappointed.

Interviewer: They’re visions of wish fulfillment. An American at large with a gamine young dancer in a fantasy playground called Paris. A Cockney flower girl who becomes the toast of upper-class London. And a child from your home state who discovers, at the end of a trip to a magic world, that happiness was where she started out.

Brooks: You are disappointed.

Interviewer: Not a bit. They’re first-rate movies, and they’re all aspects of you.




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 04:38:41 AM
The Criterion Collection

I went thru my films tonight—and picked out the ones I have from the Criterion collection. A modest selection so far—but then providing me many hours of movie enjoyment and ponderings over directors, actors, actresses and genre styles.

Hoberman mentions in his essay “Opening Pandora’s Box” included in the two-disc boxed set many different things about Pabst and the movie, but this tidbit caught my eye right away:

“In Voluptuous Panic, his erotic history of Weimar Berlin, theater historian Mel Gordon notes that the late-twenties media phenomenon the Germans called Girlkultur—revolving around sexually independent young women—was largely derived from the Ziegfeld model. Brooks fit the bill. Her Lulu was a new kind of femme fatale—generous, manipulative, heedless, blank, democratic in her affections, ambiguous in her sexuality.”

Was Marlene Dietrich—too, well, weltschmerz? Too world-weary and Blue Angel? What did Brooks have that Dietrich didn’t? That Jamesian innocence-abroad—like Portrait of a Lady?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 04:40:32 AM
Berlin

“Typically, Brooks praised Pabst for employing Gustav Diessl, the only man on the set she found sexually attractive, as her fatal final lover…”

Brooks describes the Weimar vibes in the booklet—the “Lulu in Berlin” feature gives the moviegoer a glance at how decadent and experimental Berlin was back then. I’ve read Auden and Isherwood on Berlin—and how both of them fell desperately in love with a couple of young German boys back then.

“In writing the history of a life I believe absolutely that the reader cannot understand the character and deeds of the subject unless he is given a basic understanding of that person’s sexual loves and hates and conflicts. It is the only way the reader can make sense out of innumerable apparently senseless actions… We flatter ourselves when we assume that we have restored the sexual integrity that was expurgated by the Victorians… I too am unwilling to write the sexual truth that would make my life worth reading. I cannot unbuckle the Bible Belt.”

Brooks said she was a prototypical Midwesterner: “born in the Bible Belt of Anglo-Saxon farmers, who prayed in the parlor and practiced incest in the barn.”


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 04:42:32 AM
My Modest Criterion Collection

Pandora’s Box

The Third Man

The Leopard

Great Expectations

The Testament of Dr. Mabuse

Le Samouraï

The Tin Drum

Solaris

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 15, 2007, 11:22:47 AM
You are farther along in your reading and viewing than I am.  I probably won't be through it all until Wednesday or Thursday. 

On Kortner's dislike of Brooks, if so, it may have been a help to his character.  The editor seems to hate Lulu as much as he loves her.  He seems torn in their scenes together.  And he does understand that she will be the death of him.

Pabst's philosophy on clothing is interesting.  If an actress worked in her own clothes, she would be comfortable, but would she feel more like herself than her character?   Or would Pabst get a certain type of woman (judging from her clothing, I suppose) to play a certain type of role?

I wonder if the dress Brooks wore in the first scene was her own.  The flow of that was beautiful, but it  made her look as if she had no shape.  Maybe aiming for the image of girlishness? 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 11:40:05 AM

If an actress worked in her own clothes,
she would be comfortable, but would she
feel more like herself than her character? 
  

According to the Brooks interview, she
herself was the "character" Pabst wanted.
He acted more like a choreographer with
the cameras and set so that she could be
herself = a different kind of femme fatale
compared with Dietrich, for example, or
more "moralistic" femmes fatales. Brooks
talks about her best coat being shreaded
and ruined so he could get a true reaction
from her during the London down and out
scenes...







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 15, 2007, 11:50:02 AM
Best coat shredded....ouch...that's harsh. 

Have you listened to any of the alternate scores?  I think I prefer the Cabaret Score to the Orchestral.  I watched with the orchestral the first time through, and somehow it seemed to me that there was a disconnect between what I was seeing and what I was hearing. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 15, 2007, 11:59:03 AM
re:Lulu

Part of your first post is already posted in the Movies forum, part of your second as well,when I left notes for Dzimas who expressed an interest in  all things Weimar(simply because I was to see a performance last year that my great nephew was doing here in Philadelphia. I didn't, they switched and learned how to produce for the Fringe Festival and then went on to San Franciso to do a longer run. I think it is very possible that the good Fathers of the particular academic institution with a student theatre that had booked Lulu decided that this was not the play they had imagined. Little Lulu, perhaps.) but,

Here's is a statement from your "liner-notes"? that is complete bull.
"“In Voluptuous Panic, his erotic history of Weimar Berlin, theater historian Mel Gordon notes that the late-twenties media phenomenon the Germans called Girlkultur—revolving around sexually independent young women—was largely derived from the Ziegfeld model. Brooks fit the bill. Her Lulu was a new kind of femme fatale—generous, manipulative, heedless, blank, democratic in her affections, ambiguous in her sexuality.”

When Louise went to Weimar, she discovered what "Girlkultur" was (and I included this to Dzimas) because Brooks was fascinated by being in Europe during the Weimar period (and  you might take a look at what The New York Times has illustrated in recent Grosz that they included in either Magazine for Sunday or the Art Section within the last year to get an idea of exactly what it was that Louise Brooks saw on the street and when out and about drinking in the atmosphere at various watering holes).

"Girlkultur" did not consist of "revolving around sexually independent young women". That's where Mackie Messer comes into it; or, why Lotte Lenya and Kurt Weil were interested in updating  Gay's,Beggars Opera, from English to German in musical style, while Brecht adapted the lyric.

When Brook's director realized how late she was staying out at night and the drinking that necessarily went with it, in her attempt to pattern her role after what she was discovering about the prostitutes of Weimar, he put the clamp down with their contract for fear she would look a tad too worn on camera if he didn't.  Weimar prostitutes were not particularly good looking, if you review Grosz; they were simply trying to survive what Americans would have called, "Hard Times", by just managing to stay alive post-WW1.  Or, take a look at Egon Schiele, following Grosz who best captures the era's ugliness by contrasts of where the money was at and where it wasn't. Schiele finds the sexual beauty in the emaciation of the times re: Vienna.  I think you may find from his photograph that you might mistake him for a current denizen of whatever they are calling it this week.

Then when your quote flashes the name Ziegfield model,you don't understand the contrast with grim street sex Weimar style; upon which it("girlkultur") could not possibly be based, because that wasn't Zeigfield, to make a truthful film  as was candidly made.  

Where Zeigfield has meaning is in New York; although it had a bi-coastal effect. I think you will inevitably find this interesting. When Brooks took her nicely curved legs to a Ziegfield audition, a couple of things came to pass. Charlie Chaplin saw her, and I included the quote of how he described Louise who had been what today we call "a huge fan" of his; Chaplin became likewise mutual. But so did this guy who had been buying up radio stations and later made himself  the executive of a major television  network, William Paley.  He picked up on Louise and made her a lifetime contract on which he delivered; a monthly stipend, although he did marry Babe Cushing who then became Babe Paley, Truman's friend until Capote made the mistake of including a little story about Bill Paley in that  second book, he had to come up with for the two book contract, following-- In Cold Blood.   That was it, story over. No more was writ.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 12:08:11 PM

"...all things Weimar simply because I was to see a performance
last year that my great nephew was doing here in Philadelphia.
I didn't, they switched and learned how to produce for the Fringe
Festival and then went on to San Franciso to do a longer run.
I think it..........................................................."


Here we go again...more exquisite "ambience."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 15, 2007, 12:08:39 PM
Ps. the clothes.

I went through as many of the many "studio-style" photos taken of Louise as I could stand. The collector seemed to have the whole cache.

They are what you would have expected from the motion picture business and our an excellent example of the fashions of the time. But whether they came out of wardrobe, or owe something to Chaplin, and Paley, is another matter.  In them, she photographs quite curvy, used to good clothes and knowing how to wear them as she goes through a change in maquillage to suit her bobbed hair better that how she did her face previously.  I can say that with some authority about the clothing used for photo-shoots because the styles were things that I normally saw worn by women that I knew in my childhood which means that admittedly most American women not on the Coasts were behind the times as far as what was available to Louise and other screen stars earlier. They may have been nearly a decade behind.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 15, 2007, 12:10:41 PM
Well, you know the rejoinder to that one:eph why. And just help yourself to more of the material that I originally posted for someone with some taste.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 12:13:14 PM
(http://www.ideofact.com/archives/Lulu2.jpg)


Have you listened to any of the alternate scores?  
I think I prefer the Cabaret Score to the Orchestral.
 
 

Yes, I prefer the Cabaret Score...   :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 15, 2007, 12:22:23 PM
Brook's photographs....to me she looks like a little girl playing dress-up.  No breasts, untoned thighs, no hips.  But I don't think a more voluptuous image would have worked for Lulu.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 12:42:34 PM
It was the campy title In Voluptuous Panic
by theater historian Mel Gordon about the
erotic history of Weimar Berlin that actually
was the kind of "voluptuousness" I had in
mind...referring to how the Berlin writers,
artists and intelligentsia reacted to the
rise of the Third Reich and the fall of the
Weimar Republic...Isherwood and Auden
get into it...but the fact is that many got
trapped by Hitler's dictatorship before they
could get out...or were tracked down by
Gestapo in Paris like they almost got
Marlene Dietrich...despite warnings from
those who knew what was coming down.
Some like Fritz Lang told heroic stories
about evading Herr Goebbels etc...
People react to panic in different ways...
Some acted like it was a gay cabaret...
Sometimes I feel that we are living thru
a Weimar denouement now as well...
a reason why I wanted to understand this
German period back then thru film...
before grabbing my passport and making
a run for it...
   :)









Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 15, 2007, 12:48:17 PM
Oh no.  I understood your point.  But I wouldn't agree with Madupont's comment that Brooks appeared "quite curvy" in photos she's seen.  In fact, I think part of the point of Louise Brooks in PB was that she had a certain girlish innocence about her.  If Pabst had use an actress with a sort of Marilyn Monroe body type, the effect may have crossed over into camp.

It is interesting to watch the development of the "voluptuous" in German cinema.  Compare the expressionist films of early Weimar to what you see in PB.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 01:17:21 PM
(http://passouline.blog.lemonde.fr/files/2007/04/avedon1.1177314527.JPG)


"...although he did marry Babe Cushing who then became
Babe Paley, Truman's friend until Capote made the mistake
of including a little story about Bill Paley in that second book...
he had to come up with for the two book contract, following--
In Cold Blood.   That was it, story over. No more was writ."



You seem to know so much about Truman and GLBT culture...

I look forward to your insights into queer Weimar Berlin...
   :)




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 15, 2007, 01:21:41 PM
Well, you can look at the photos of the real Louise Brooks for yourself,lhoffman, I either did or not supply them earlier when dzimas expressed his interest in Weimar film in the Movie forum here, not the "club". Her littleness at the time of becoming a Ziegfield Follies dancer was during a period of some belt-tightening in our economy but Charlie Chaplain clearly said she had such "pear-like breasts".

She was very healthy looking in her "studio shots" but look, Weimar comes before Third Reich, it was the grim poverty of post WW1 including Weimar that led to the popularity of the Third Reich and the voting in of Hitler; so if Brooks felt when she got to Germany that she would do her own version of checking things out in a method akin to a latter day's Method, she  slimmed for the role without going so far as to give the camera the wrong results as the consequence of too much excess nightlife.

To do this well, as I said before, in the creation of what became post-film release Vamp across the country once the public had seen this performance, the makeup was applied especially in the straight eye-penciling to emphasize an exaggerated slimness that was also in straight cut of the costuming for this role.  I was trying to get a portrait for my sister-in-law but found it no longer available in which Lulu black on white wears the longest amount  of pearls on one lengthy necklace for the contrast to the black dress and hair. Of course, this had nothing to do with the actual role in the film. But everything to do with the image in post-publicity. It hit off a general trend, regardless of the original sleeziness or skankiness of the character Brooks played in the film itself.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 01:30:11 PM
(http://passouline.blog.lemonde.fr/files/2007/04/avedon1.1177314527.JPG)


If Pabst had use an actress with a sort of
Marilyn Monroe body type, the effect may
have crossed over into camp.


Yes, in Pabst's own words, "Dietrich was too
old and too obvious--one sexy look and the
picture would become a burlesque."

Camp, burlesque, kitsch, cabaret...
these are all subversive strategies
used by the intelligentsia...
against TPTB...






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 15, 2007, 01:49:58 PM
]
(http://www.ideofact.com/archives/Lulu2.jpg)


"...although he did marry Babe Cushing who then became
Babe Paley, Truman's friend until Capote made the mistake
of including a little story about Bill Paley in that second book...
he had to come up with for the two book contract, following--


In Cold Blood.   That was it, story over. No more was writ."



You seem to know so much about Truman and GLBT culture...

I look forward to your insights into queer Weimar Berlin...
   :)



I think that is pretty much general knowledge by now, as a number of contemporary films have been made on what things became in Germany after the elections of 1933. I mean, fairly recent films but alas I don't recall the directors or titles.   What they have been trying to deal with is "why?".

A lot of guesswork,everything from Hitler's drive for dominance or complete control so none of Ernst Raum's men could be turned as an army against him, to whether his art-school tendencies were indicative; but, I guess there must have been a reason that Robert Carlyle was given the role for a tv-movie,The Rise of Evil, when a few Europeans wanted to critique early Bush administration "Two"(not terms,administrations!)

You can just chalk up my insights as result of having been cast to do the dance interlude in a theatrical production with the first partner (as the director directed), but that dancer became who is now today the head choreographer of the Hamburg Operballet. I don't think that I ever took a studio-class from age nine on, where that wasn't the case as we all hung out  together in the studio and dressing room as dance-theatrical lore was passed down to us.

Ps, the photo you have just posted is later T.C.  He arranged his own publicity poses knowing exactly what they would do, rather than in the pop-Warhol connection in which Andy did a "study" in portraits; the original stuff was glamour of an ethereal kind meant to sell his book and was entirely Truman as a very young person, quite healthy and dressed not as Warhol's fashion sense of childhood recall of life in beyond Pittsburgh, but Truman instead imitated the wardrobe of what Tennessee Williams would have worn to a photo shoot. When sober of course, Tom;not Truman. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 01:50:43 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/516755a1JuL._AA240_.jpg)

Berlin’s Weimar Vibe

“The bar at the hotel was lined with the higher-priced trollops. The economy girls walked the street outside. On the corner stood the girls in boots, advertising flagellation. Actors’ agents pimped for the ladies in luxury apartments in the Bavarian Quarter. Racetrack touts at the Hopppengarten arranged orgies for groups of sportsmen. The nightclub Eldorado displayed an enticing line of homosexuals dressed as women. At the Maly, there was a choice of feminine or collar-and-tie lesbians.”—Louise Brooks

—from J. Hoberman, “Opening Pandora’s Box,” Reflections on Pandora’s Box, Criterion Collection


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 15, 2007, 01:51:19 PM
Yes, Brooks would have been far more subtle than Dietrich.  

Interesting in real life, though.  Women with the more boyish type figures seem to become invisible after fifty.  Whereas the more voluptuous type become anything but invisible.  Greengrocers always show them to the best produce of the week, save coupons for them.  Automechanics are willing to give steep discounts.  And it seems that skinny women laugh less.  (Think Gina Lolibrigita vs Twiggy for example)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 15, 2007, 01:58:29 PM
]
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/516755a1JuL._AA240_.jpg)

Berlin’s Weimar Vibe

“The bar at the hotel was lined with the higher-priced trollops. The economy girls walked the street outside. On the corner stood the girls in boots, advertising flagellation. Actors’ agents pimped for the ladies in luxury apartments in the Bavarian Quarter. Racetrack touts at the Hopppengarten arranged orgies for groups of sportsmen. The nightclub Eldorado displayed an enticing line of homosexuals dressed as women. At the Maly, there was a choice of feminine or collar-and-tie lesbians.”—Louise Brooks

—from J. Hoberman, “Opening Pandora’s Box,” Reflections on Pandora’s Box, Criterion Collection



Exactly. You found it. It freeked her director.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 02:01:27 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gPijDqhqL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg)


"You can just chalk up my insights as result of having been cast to do the dance interlude in a theatrical production with the first partner (as the director directed), but that dancer became who is now today the head choreographer of the Hamburg Operballet. I don't think that I ever took a studio-class from age nine on, where that wasn't the case as we all hung out  together in the studio and dressing room as dance-theatrical lore was passed down to us."


Tell me more...

This is the kind of ambience
I'm interested in, Maddy...

Thank you.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 02:10:45 PM
(http://www.louisebrooks.com/1964-louise-brooks-with-suzy.jpg)


Yes, Brooks would have been far more subtle than Dietrich. 
Interesting in real life, though.  Women with the more boyish
type figures seem to become invisible after fifty.
 


Hmmm. The Louise Brooks in "Lulu in Berlin" and the
other commentaries sure doesn't remind me of an
Invisible Lady at all...she's still full of spunk and
incredible intelligence...and she knows how the
studio system screwed her...and yet there she is
with these film historians and commentators...
stunning them with her quick insights into...

And look at her face there at Eastman...with her
lovely proud cat...Louise had so much pride and
panache...despite all she went thru...if only I
can be that way when I get there...










Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 15, 2007, 02:52:20 PM
Elegance, panache....yes.  But she doesn't look like a woman who's laughed at life.


She seems to come close here:

http://www.silentstar.com/web/node/146 (http://www.silentstar.com/web/node/146)


This is quite beautiful:

http://www.silentstar.com/web/node/132 (http://www.silentstar.com/web/node/132)

 
I think this is the photo mentioned by Madupont:

http://www.silentstar.com/web/node/157 (http://www.silentstar.com/web/node/157)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 15, 2007, 02:58:52 PM
But, next time you go out to the market or some public place, notice the interaction between strangers...not the young people, they have their own rules.  Notice the ones over 50.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 03:33:12 PM
(http://www.silentstar.com/web/sites/www.silentstar.com.web/files/images/28%20Pearls.jpg)

Louise Brooks
Photographed by Eugene Robert Richee
Paramount Studios Publicity Photo (Detail)
1928 · Hollywood, California

http://www.silentstar.com/web/node/157

Eugene Robert Richee was Brooks's most frequent photographer. Had he only shot but two frames of her—this photo and the accompanying full-length shot—their collaboration on those alone would still have created an icon and defined the look of the 1920s. Louise summed up their work together in her typical crisp fashion: "Eugene Richee used to take sixty shots in two hours. We never said a word to each other. Perfect relationship."


Thank you Hoffman. I was going to do a Google on the photo Maddy suggested.

It's one of the best portraits of her don't you think?

This crisp black and white fashion...I noticed it right away in the first PB scene...

There in the Berlin art deco apartment...

I like it.   :)







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 03:34:48 PM
(http://www.silentstar.com/web/sites/www.silentstar.com.web/files/images/1927%20Now%20Were%20In%20The%20Air%2001.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 03:38:26 PM
(http://www.silentstar.com/web/sites/www.silentstar.com.web/files/images/1926%20Florida.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 15, 2007, 03:56:57 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/ed4/4bd/ed44bd56-d6f5-47a6-b7c4-dd0cf0c0f8aa)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 16, 2007, 12:21:46 AM
Great photos, puget, especially of an older Louise Brooks.  I won't be able to really comment until I've sat down and watched the film again tonight.  Too tired last night after putting the kids to bed.  I see we share a few similar titles from C, including Le Samourai, The Tin Drum and Fear and Loathing.  I also have Shoot the Piano Player, Mr. Arkadin and Elevator to the Gallows, among other titles.  Seriously considering the Janus collection for Christmas,

http://www.criterion.com/asp/janusstore.asp


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 16, 2007, 08:59:38 AM
(http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDreviews26/a%20pandoras%20box%20louise%20brooks/crit%20pandora%20box%20louise%20brooks%20%20PANDORAS_BOX-19.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 16, 2007, 12:33:51 PM
Another of my favorite actresses from that period is Hedy Lamarr.  I saw her in Ecstasy some years ago.  Hardly recognizable from the glossy Hollywood images,

(http://www.german-films.de/app/filmarchive/images/Hedy_Lamarr.jpg)

It was also interesting to read that she and her husband were pioneers in radio-controlled missiles.  We apparently have cell phones to thank for her work in frequency hopping,

http://www.hypatiamaze.org/h_lamarr/scigrrl.html


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 16, 2007, 02:00:43 PM
DZIMAS ,in that link Hedy Lamarr is seen riding with Mandl

http://www.hypatiamaze.org/h_lamarr/scigrrl.html

Mandl was a Jewish-german nazi who ran away to Argentina and built a *castle* in the hills of La Cumbre, Cordoba.it is still standing though it was looted several times until nothing was left after the owner died in 1977.

He usually went riding there with several of his wives ,not all at the same time :).

One of them might have been Lamarr. He was filthy rich.My father had many anecdotes of him,like he´d buy all the raffles at the La Cumbre Golf Club so that come what may one of his guests would win.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 16, 2007, 10:15:36 PM
Had no idea about Lamarr and radio controlled missiles.  Interesting.

Got through "Pandora's Box" and commentary.  Interesting to note the art in the beginning of PB.  The art related to Lulu has clean lines and a certain elegance about it, while the art that reflects Dr. Schon is quite chaotic. 

The feeling I had that Louise Brooks was a woman who didn't laugh much at life makes a lot of sense when you take into account that she was molested by a neighbor as a child...and that her mother blamed her.  Quite creepy in retrospect, the scenes where she sits on the lap of her first "mentor." 

Madupont....you might like the DVD that comes along with Pandora's Box called "Looking For Lulu."  Covers quite a bit of the history and people you are interested in from that era.

Interesting comment from both the commentary and the Looking for LuLu DVD...Brooks said she learned to act from watching Martha Graham dance, but she learned to dance from watching Charlie Chaplin act.




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 16, 2007, 11:38:18 PM
I watched the first five acts last night.  I was too tired to make it all the way through.  Fascinating the way the scenes are set up.  Very complete, each with beginning, middle and end.  Of course, it is hard to take such a film too seriously with Lulu acting as a petulant child throughout. Quite a contrast between Dr. Schon and Lulu's first mentor, or "father" as she later called him.  There is something incestuous about Lulu's relationship to both men, and then there is young Alwa crying on her lap, professing his love to her, but looking on her as a mother. And then there is that woman, who seems to know all about Lulu's past and is very protective of her.  The dance was really something at the wedding reception.  So much love being expressed here.  So much jealousy toward Schon, but he dismisses her completely as Lulu tries to coax Schon into the bedroom, only to find the awful Schigolch and Rodrigo Quast in there.  Schigolch tossing roses over her bed like one would a grave.  The strong man is an odd fellow.  Hard to imagine him on a trapeze.  But, very much enjoyed the revue.  So much transpires in this short scene.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 16, 2007, 11:48:25 PM
Quote
Schigolch tossing roses over her bed like one would a grave.

Yes!  I missed that imagery at the time, but you've nailed it exactly.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 17, 2007, 10:13:46 AM

Mandl was a Jewish-german nazi who ran away to Argentina and built a *castle* in the hills of La Cumbre, Cordoba.it is still standing though it was looted several times until nothing was left after the owner died in 1977.

 

Hedwig Eva Maria Kiesler (aka Hedy Lamar) was an Austrian-born American Jewish actress (wiki).  Now that's a mouthful.   Interesting to read that Mandl was an arms dealer, and apparently was a good tutor for Lamar.  However, I think she got her cinematic start in Czech films.  At least Ecstasy was Czech.   


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 17, 2007, 10:19:38 AM
Louise Brooks wasn't as young as she looked in Pandora's Box.  I see she was 23 at the time.  She had quite a filmography to her credit before teaming up with Pabst.  "Brooks began her entertainment career as a dancer, appearing in her teens with the revolutionary Denishawn modern dance company whose members included Martha Graham, Ruth St. Denis, and Ted Shawn," according to wiki.  Another interesting tidbit,

At this time in her life, she was rubbing elbows with the rich and famous, and was a regular guest of William Randolph Hearst and his mistress, Marion Davies, at San Simeon, being close friends with Marion Davies's niece, Pepi Lederer. Her distinctive bob haircut, which became eponymous and still recognised to this day, had started a sensational trend, as many women in the Western world cut their hair like hers. Soon after the film Beggars Of Life was made, Louise, who loathed the Hollywood "scene", refused to stay on at Paramount after being denied a promised raise, and left for Europe to make films for G. W. Pabst, the great German Expressionist director.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Brooks

I could see Hearst in Schon.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 17, 2007, 10:45:02 AM
What Lulu wants, Lulu gets!

(http://www.dvdjournal.com/reviewimgs/p/pandorasbox_cc_imgs/pandorasbox_cc_imgs_01.jpg)

Probably my favorite scene. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 17, 2007, 11:44:46 AM
a


Oh no.  I understood your point.  But I wouldn't agree with Madupont's comment that Brooks appeared "quite curvy" in photos she's seen.  In fact, I think part of the point of Louise Brooks in PB was that she had a certain girlish innocence about her.  If Pabst had use an actress with a sort of Marilyn Monroe body type, the effect may have crossed over into camp.

It is interesting to watch the development of the "voluptuous" in German cinema.  Compare the expressionist films of early Weimar to what you see in PB.



I think that you misunderstand; I am referring to the "studio portfolio shots" from when Brooks began to work in films for studios that she left behind when she took a flier on the one particular role that made her, well, rather,"immortal" (as well as just another household name).   I notice in the posts that all three posters commenting will occasionally mention those,"studios", which you seem to forget in regard to this factor of her change of image.  What is significant is that there were fellows out there, who having fallen under her spell, back then, began collecting the photos and buying them up and they are indeed very expensive collectors' items that show Louise Brooks as she was before the creation of the image for Lulu.

And there was absolutely no resemblence to Marilyn Monroe before Lulu.

Take a look at your first Silentstar link in post #460 and tell me who that looks like? I hate to tell you, but take a close look. Britney Speers?

It's really a matter of how our tastes have changed from one end of ninety years ago to the other, although sometimes the conduct of a celebreality at present is motivated very much by the same thing that you've described happened to Louise as a child which led to such convincingly relevant scenes of an abused victim in Pandora's Box where the female-lead vamps that her self-perception is exteriorly expressed as a dominatrix.

Ps. When you get to your third link of the Silentstar links, notice the straight highbrows.  They are unlike the fashion of the time for plucked arched eyebrows;but, what they do is underscore and emphasize the straight across bangs of her bobbed hair thus thinning the face and creating the illusion of a  body that had already been dieted down to slim for this role of Lulu.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 17, 2007, 12:24:04 PM
]
Had no idea about Lamarr and radio controlled missiles.  Interesting.

Got through "Pandora's Box" and commentary.  Interesting to note the art in the beginning of PB.  The art related to Lulu has clean lines and a certain elegance about it, while the art that reflects Dr. Schon is quite chaotic. 

The feeling I had that Louise Brooks was a woman who didn't laugh much at life makes a lot of sense when you take into account that she was molested by a neighbor as a child...and that her mother blamed her.  Quite creepy in retrospect, the scenes where she sits on the lap of her first "mentor." 

Madupont....you might like the DVD that comes along with Pandora's Box called "Looking For Lulu."  Covers quite a bit of the history and people you are interested in from that era.

Interesting comment from both the commentary and the Looking for LuLu DVD...Brooks said she learned to act from watching Martha Graham dance, but she learned to dance from watching Charlie Chaplin act.



I can really understand that last quote above, since I studied the Martha Graham method of dance training since I was age nine. She had formulated it partly from the German dancer, Mary Wigman who was a part of the Modern movement in German Art. It basically begins with the prana and Yoga asanas, which of course has something in common with what Martha Graham studied as a young woman with Ruth St.Denis who was to be the doyenne of "ethnic dance studies" which I also threw myself into early along the line from childhood in accord with musical scores that were interesting for choreography;until I actually found things that I could read further on dance history when I began highschool and they sent us into the library to see how "library science" works (I believe we talked about this once in passing,re: book reports for students) with the intent that we would plan "our vocation" for our post-highschool education in future. I was however already involved with it in terms of hours of dance-studio necessary physically.

I do remember however, that when ever the highschool would pull one of those student recitals or "watch your fellow students perform", I was sure to slap on Max Factor panstick makeup and my assorted costume collection to perform my 14 or 15 year old approximation of Ruth St.Denis as an Indian nautch dancer.

I may be wrong that Kate Hepburn also studied with St.Denis and if not surely with Martha who was her fellow alumna from Bryn Mawr a bit earlier. Graham was the daughter of a Philadelphia doctor, so that's where she headed to
school.[Correction. In looking up the photographs, discovered the Grahams lived in western Pennsylvania not eastern. More on this with archival photos]

During the early Denishawn days, they headed down to Pierre duPont's at Longwood for entertainments on the grass, although he was in process of building a small outdoor theatre; but originally crowds of guests had been entertained at garden parties on the lawn, and Pierre (who played music for relaxation) hired the most up and coming musicians and artistes of the day to entertain his guests. I did meet somebody in the nytimes.com forums down in Nat.Sec who had made his organ recital debut down at the Longwood Conservatory, previously having studied with a man teaching privately in Princeton borough; I think the student recitalist is now employed in some capacity at Lincoln Center.

And,yes, Louise was quite right, Charlie Chaplin "danced". This was obvious on film, that he had developed routines. While as the years went on,Martha Graham proved to be who used dance to better express acting, she liked to act, and consequently many young actors in New York were sent over to her school to take "movement classes for the body"  for actors only.

I have pictures around somewhere of recent coverage of when  the Denishawn
dancers relocated. They broke into the realism of training male dancers.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 17, 2007, 02:10:21 PM
Hard to tell if the new film "Renditition" is "roll out the red carpet," or "please just roll it out," interested in the Saarsgaard perf, but Reese looks a little over the top, always like Alan Arkin, and Jack Gylennhaal has never impressed me one time on film.  I think he's a terrible actor.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 17, 2007, 03:23:28 PM
The Jacobs Pillow photographs at the moment are not cooperating with my computer and enlarging on demand.  Maybe it will work for you

http://www.jacobspillow.org/gallery/

particularly look at the third category down the list:
Images from the Archives at Jacobs Pillow (15)

for the historic element

http://www.jacobspillow.org/archives/ted-shawn.asp

http://www.pitt.edu/~gillis/dance/ruth.html

This little academic archive has convinced me that the biographical backgrounds on Ruth St.Denis and Martha Graham inevitably were mixed up under the duress of publicity by journalists because I have believed that Graham was from Philadelphia not Pittsburgh area,although her father was a most interesting "alienist";whereas it was Ruth St.Denis who had more connection out East but possibly more after having been in California with that admixture around the Duncans of San Francisco and the developments of film-making in L.A. . This is where Graham signed on for the ride to study with St.Denis.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 17, 2007, 03:31:03 PM
Madupont...the links aren't working for me....But as to the difference between Pittsburg and Philadelphia, I suspect that NY and Hollywood publishers don't get it.  But the Pennsylvanians get their own.  I like driving and so occasionally choose to drive to Manhattan rather than fly.  On these drives from Michigan to Manhattan, there are signs in Ohio telling me how far to NYC, and signs in New Jersey telling how far to NYC....absolutely no mention of New York on the drive through Pennsylvania. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 17, 2007, 08:49:31 PM
That's odd?

Try these however because I thought you would have found these by now; they are some that I originally saw, some better, some worse,both her and the fashions. You can notice a variation in her weight from time to time. Putting on weight, then others with a weight loss. Always need to remind yourself that even on the skinnier shots, the camera has added ten pounds.

http://brooksie.vintage-sky.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=38&pos=24

(and, these are the Denishawn photos. As you see, Ted Shawn was into American Indians)
http://brooksie.vintage-sky.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=30&pos=0


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 17, 2007, 11:54:23 PM
Nice sites.  Thank you.  I was able to watch "Lulu in Berlin" today.  Quite interesting, although some of it is contradictory to "Looking for LuLu."  "Lulu in Berlin" is an interview format, Richard Leacock and Louise Brooks.  One interesting contradiction:  The rumor was that Brooks turned down the offer to work in Hollywood talking pictures and on her way out the door, received a telegram from Berlin with an offer to work for Pabst.  Brooks says in this interview that she knew of the offer beforehand.  She would have turned down hollywood either way, but she did know that she had work to do.

Brooks claims that Pabst didn't know she could dance until they were shooting the early dance scene in PB.  The scene called for her to dance for Schigolch, unchoreographed.  Brooks asked what to do and Pabst told her to just dance.  So she pulled out something similar to what she had done in the Denis company.  (Could this be true, or did Pabst know of her work with Zeigfield?)

Brooks also talks about her fascination with Riefenstahl and would study Riefenstahl whenever she hung around the set during the time of her love affair with Pabst.  She wasn't impressed with Reifenstahl's looks or politics, but was a bit jealous of her legs.

On Alice Roberts as the Countess:  "She spoke just enough English to insult me."

On Pabst having her favorite suit ruined to add realism to the movie:  "The skirt had been torn and ripped and dipped in oil.  The lovely blouse was a mess.  The coat he threw away.....I said 'That's my suit.'  Anyone else would have gotten some ragtag...would have bought something....but he wanted something that was mine that I loved so that I would feel terrible in it.  And I did.  Here is was in my beautiful suit and it was ruined....and that's how I was at the end of the picture."  (Although she also says the final scene with Gustav Diessl was the happiest scene in the picture because she found him immensely attractive.  "And we had a lovely time....here he is with the knife that he's going to stick up into my interior thrown on the table and we were singing and you would never know, you'd think we were throwing a Christmas party."

From Brooks essay on the ending:  "It is in the worn and filthy garments of the streetwalker that she feels passion for the first time.  She comes to life so that she might die when she picks up Jack the Ripper on a foggy London street.  He tells her he has no money to pay.  She says 'Never mind, I like you.'  It is Christmas Eve, she is about the receive the gift which has been her dream since childhood...death by a sexual maniac." 


Back to Pandora's Box....I like the piano score, too.  It is quite thoughtful.





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 18, 2007, 12:08:17 AM
I like to score, too, (holding up the "Party Animal" and base frat-boy humor redolent of my participation in the NYTFF), especially when I WINFIRST, apologies).


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 18, 2007, 04:00:14 AM
Quote
Back to Pandora's Box....I like the piano score, too.  It is quite thoughtful.

I found the music a bit too detached from the action, which sadly is true of most silent films, although at times the score did synch nicely with the actions.  It would be great if Kronos Quartet did a score for the movie like they did with Philip Glass for Dracula,

http://www.amazon.com/Philip-Glass-Dracula/dp/B00000JZCI

incorporating the music of Kurt Weill of course.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 18, 2007, 04:06:28 AM
Joy of joys!  You can now get Dracula with the option to listen to it with Glass' score,

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T7FAPQN2L.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000GPIPSS/ref=ord_cart_shr/105-5791205-4542015?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

and at a nice price.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 18, 2007, 08:36:26 AM
(http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/film/undergrads/careers/bow.jpg)

Another silent era siren, probably best remembered for Wings.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 18, 2007, 11:49:21 AM
I've got that Dracula soundtrack with the Kronos Quartet.  I like it better than most of Glass's stuff....probably because of the quartet.  Glass to me never seems to go anywhere...endless loops of the same chord patterns, no melody, few cadences.  If I ever saw the man conduct in person, I'd feel compelled to go up to the podium and give him a little shove. 

As to Clara Bow, the only thing I own of hers is "It."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 18, 2007, 11:50:31 AM
A Kronos Quartet score for Pandora's Box
like they did with Philip Glass for Dracula...
wouldn't that be exquisite? Something
somewhat evil and ethereal. Kronos adds
new meaning to these silent movies...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 18, 2007, 03:37:52 PM
About 5 years, Philip Glass and the Kronos Quartet were in Vilnius and performed their soundtrack for Dracula in the old Lietuva cinema, with the movie playing on a wrap-around screen behind them.  It was grand!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Detective_Winslow on October 18, 2007, 06:10:26 PM
Just curious, but why the fuck would anyone want to watch a movie made in the 1930's?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 18, 2007, 08:32:12 PM
Winslow...beauty, art.  Back in the days before special effects took over, directors had to rely on more than shock and awe to get the point across.  Back then, there was something called writing, acting, plot....


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 18, 2007, 09:59:36 PM
Plus Weimar cinema is déjà vu...

Thirties Deutschland kinda like now...

A brief decadent little pause...

Before the nazi boot...

Comes down on our face...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 18, 2007, 10:12:25 PM
But which do you suppose changed the world more or robbed us of any lingering illusions we might have harbored about the goodness of man?  WWI or WWII? 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 19, 2007, 12:01:54 AM
I guess our thought-provoking Winslow never saw Birth of a Nation or Alexander Nevsky or Wings, all of which were technological marvels in their day, and could still teach directors a few lessons today.  Of course, BN dates back a little earlier.  But, probably my favorite movie from the era is,

(http://www.thefilmjournal.com/images/joan1.jpg)

La Passion de Jeanne d'Arc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rQzsqrkbrU

not that I'm particuarly a religious person, but this film is a true cinematic gem.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 19, 2007, 04:50:24 AM
But which do you suppose changed the world more or robbed us of any lingering illusions we might have harbored about the goodness of man?  WWI or WWII? 

As far as Europe is concerned, I think WWI had the bigger impact.  Before the war, early modernists saw war as a cleansing agent, as in the Futurist Manifesto of 1909,

We want to glorify war - the only cure for the world - militarism, patriotism, the destructive gesture of the anarchists, the beautiful ideas which kill, and contempt for woman.
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/T4PM/futurist-manifesto.html

While Marinetti didn't change his tune after the war, supporting the National Fascist Party of Italy, the movement was pretty much crushed with the loss of two of its leading members, Antonio Sant'Elia,

(http://www.irre.toscana.it/futurismo/opere/immagini/elia/CENTRELT.jpg)

and Umberto Boccioni,

(http://www.noemalab.org/sections/specials/tetcm/2003-04/dinamismo_futurismo/images/foot_baller.jpg)

during the war. Modernism would embrace a more socialist vision, with the aim being to rebuild cities, provide housing and social amenities that were for the People.  I think this socialist vision also infused art and cinema, especially in the epic films of Eisenstien,

(http://www.movieposter.com/posters/archive/main/21/b70-10539)

Hard to really gauge Lang's Metropolis.  It can be read as an indictment against Modernism, especially since he has specific visual references to modern art and architecture at the time, but it seems more an indictment against industrialism which he viewed as anti-human. 

(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PF_NEW%5C08_25_2005/PF_1335175~Vintage-1928-Metropolis-Movie-Posters.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 19, 2007, 07:19:35 AM
(http://filmyear.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/26/triumph.jpg)

Opening Pandora’s Box


About 5 years, Philip Glass and the Kronos Quartet were in Vilnius and performed their soundtrack for Dracula in the old Lietuva cinema, with the movie playing on a wrap-around screen behind them.  It was grand!




Right now I'm on "Three Penny Opera"  and after that, "Diary of a Lost Girl," "Symphony of a Great City."  Then I'll probably be compelled to watch a slew of Fritz Lang....I'd forgotten how much I like the Germans.


Yes, I’ve got to get Three Penny Opera and watch it too—so we can continue our leisurely chat over in the Movie Club—Dzimas’ idea of a Kronos Quartet soundtrack for Pandora’s Box sounds pretty neat doesn’t it—especially when I slipped that 75th Anniversary Dracula DVD into the machine—and listened to it again—really spooky and eerie—like watching it for the first time—funny what a new soundtrack does to enhance a classic silent movie-thriller—wonder what Kronos would do with Louise Brooks—a nice disquieting Dracula’s Daughter moonlight sonata?


I did a little experiment last night. I listened to the Kronos Dracula DVD on my laptop—while watching Pandora’s Box on flatscreen. It was a completely new movie. I sensed the more sinister femme fatale aspect to Lucille Brooks—with Kronos in the background.

The really strange eerie Kronos quartet opening credits of Dracula—completely changed the art deco apartment at the beginning of Pandora’s Box. I don’t know how Kronos does it—just the right touch of strings that’s all it takes. It doesn’t take an orchestra—then the quick shocking strings when Dwight Frye cuts his finger with a paperclip in Dracula’s castle bedroom. That got my attention real quick—and I felt some very real and authentic horror frisson going up the back of my neck making the hair stand up erect. I hadn’t had that feeling since my Midnight Movie Bijou nights—back when I was a kid huddled in the balcony with The Thing and Them and The Creature From the Black Lagoon…looming down on me.

The Kronos Dracula soundtrack on my earphones—made Pandora’s Box much scarier—especially the weird Jack the Ripper scene at the end. That Lucille Brooks found “Jack” the sexiest guy on the set made more sense with Kronos—the fascination she had with death and male beauty. Körtner had strength and power—but Jack had sex appeal…

Tonight I’ll do the same thing with Metropolis and M—listening to Kronos. The thing I have to remember is that sound was new back then—the opening scene of Fritz Lang’s The Testament of Dr. Mabuse for example. Lang was a quick study—learning to use soundtracks effectively with film. The incessant pounding Factory thumping at the beginning—it caught my attention right away.

No wonder Hitler was an avid moviegoer—his own private theater for Metropolis and his other futuristic favorites. Leni Riefenstahl in many ways was closer to him than the Propaganda Dwarf who was very jealous of her. The struggle over the opening shots of Triumph of the Will—the Luftwaffe vision of Hitler’s plane flying down thru the clouds to the Nuremberg Rally—almost didn’t make it on screen. The dwarf wanted generals—but Hitler sided with Riefenstahl…

The way film and the will to power work together—Lucille Brooks paid attention to it. Not just to Riefenstahl or Pabst—but looking at how Weimar culture handled it. Since she already was aware of power-politics—and how it worked within the studio system in early Hollywood.

Film as the ultimate artform of power-politics—all the way from Weimar to FOX-News today…



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 19, 2007, 07:32:13 AM
(http://filmyear.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/26/triumph.jpg)

This morning I watched Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will—

With the Kronos Quartet Dracula soundtrack...

Again the most most interesting thing—

A totally new film...incredibly evil and powerful...

Hitler as Dracula...the SS with Skull and Crossbones...

Night of the Swastika... Night of the Living Dead...



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 19, 2007, 07:32:25 AM
Quote
Right now I'm on "Three Penny Opera"  and after that, "Diary of a Lost Girl," "Symphony of a Great City."  Then I'll probably be compelled to watch a slew of Fritz Lang....I'd forgotten how much I like the Germans.

(http://www.oxdox.com/images/film/12.jpg)

Symphony of a Great City is one of my all-time favorites, absolutely mesmerizing to watch.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 19, 2007, 09:35:33 AM
(http://images.contentreserve.com/ImageType-100/1096-1/%7B1154B4BF-53C4-4959-A2FE-91A2280871AB%7DImg100.jpg)

You can view this movie free here:

http://www.archive.org/details/BerlinSymphonyofaGreatCity

Either Stream or Play/Download. Cheers


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 19, 2007, 11:55:21 AM

(http://www.philipglass.com/images/recordings/dracula.1.jpg)

Glass/Kronos/Dracula

http://www.philipglass.com/html/recordings/dracula.html

“The film is considered a classic. I felt the score needed to evoke the feeling of the world of the 19th century — for that reason I decided a string quartet would be the most evocative and effective. I wanted to stay away from the obvious effects associated with horror films. With Kronos we were able to add depth to the emotional layers of the film.”— Philip Glass

NOTES:

Two trailblazing new music artists — Kronos Quartet and composer Philip Glass — come together once again for a recording of the first original score for the Universal Pictures 1931 horror film classic Dracula, starring Béla Lugosi. Glass's score marks the first-ever for a film which the composer himself considers a classic. "Many films have been made based on Dracula since the original in 1931 — however, none is equal to the original in eloquence or the sheer power to move us." There have in fact been many screen versions of Bram Stoker's classic tale of Dracula, but none more famous or enduring than the 1931 original. Starring Béla Lugosi as the world's best known vampire and directed by horror specialist Tod Browning, Universal Studios' Dracula creates an eerie, chilling mood that has rarely been realized since. Dracula's initial theatrical release coincided with the transition from silent pictures to "talkies." At that time limited technology existed to present the film as a sound picture, so no musical score was ever composed and there were few sound effects. Browning relied on Lugosi's legendary Hungarian accent to give the film its distinctive sound. Glass's new original score for Dracula was commissioned by Universal Family and Home Entertainment Production for inclusion as part of Universal's Classic Monsters collection, to be released on video on August 31. Philip Glass, in commenting on writing this score, said, "The film is considered a classic. I felt the score needed to evoke the feeling of the world of the 19th century — for that reason I decided a string quartet would be the most evocative and effective. I wanted to stay away from the obvious effects associated with horror films. With Kronos we were able to add depth to the emotional layers of the film." Philip Glass and Kronos Quartet made their first collaborative recording in 1985 for the Paul Schrader film Mishima, after which Kronos commissioned the composer's Quartet No. 5, and subsequently recorded it along with three others for a 1995 Nonesuch release.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 19, 2007, 01:35:44 PM
You're quite the cut and paste and italicize artist..


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 19, 2007, 02:11:36 PM
Great forum for lurking around.I feel the K/SF would have done good business in those days.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 19, 2007, 02:29:05 PM
(http://www.avizora.com/publicaciones/biografias/textos/textos_l/images/0012_lugosi_bela_afiche_dracula_01.jpg)

"Listen to them...children of the night........."

"What m-u-s-i-c they make........."




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 19, 2007, 02:41:46 PM
It is a fun forum, martin, and you are more than welcome to join in.  And, old bottle even drops by from time to time just to show us all how jealous he is of the good time we are having. 

Thanks for the link, puget.  Hope you enjoyed the link to The Passion of Jeanne d'Arc, which contains the film in its entirety.  I suppose a lot of these films are in the public domain, until someone like Ted Turner comes along and buys them up.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 19, 2007, 04:45:05 PM
I'll take you word for it funboy, but I haven't read a word of puget's effusive bullshit for several moons now, but if you want to bring me in to piss on it more, well, I'm your boy.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 19, 2007, 05:13:19 PM
...and "Metropolis" is not all that hard to figure...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 20, 2007, 03:07:54 AM
...nothing personal, I hate the word "jealous," and it didn't really apply, I like it if you are having a good conversation, but, yeah, in a civil manner, I don't think that anybody said anything, nothing personal...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 20, 2007, 03:34:30 AM
Then why do you even bother to come over here, bottle boy? You can post all you like in the movies forum, predicting this week's box office hits, reveling in the latest teen flick or soft porn flick that tickled your imagination, or fulminating on the classic works of Paul Verhoeven.  But, no, like hippie who loved to eavesdrop on the old NYTimes forums and tell us what a bunch of hacks we were, you do the same here.  Lighten up, pal!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 20, 2007, 03:52:26 AM
There was the Giorgio Moroder version of Metropolis.  The best thing about it was Freddie Mercury doing "Love Kills."  Pat Benetar's "Here's My Heart" wasn't too bad,

http://www.amazon.com/Metropolis-1984-Re-release-1927-Film/dp/B00000260Q/ref=sr_1_1/002-4086232-9828850?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1192866530&sr=1-1

Years ago when I was living in DC, I would go to the East Wing of the National Gallery each Saturday for screenings of classic silent movies, replete with strings.  I wonder if they still do that.  There was usually a pretty good crowd on hand, and the auditorium was perfect the perfect venue for such events.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 20, 2007, 06:34:28 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/230/d04/230d0490-3c2d-4ce3-9776-35609a227b3a)

Schigolch

Every forum has its sad has-been clown—
still desperate for the spotlight that always
moves on once the drunk clown fades and
his hot-dog tricks become boring and sad…






I'm your boy...



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 20, 2007, 06:40:55 PM
What, validate you by "fuck you"...sure.

And Dzimas, this "movie club" has been nothing but a pugetopolis cut and paste festival, and if you are having fun with that and the pubescent boy he uses as his moniker, great, you guys have a blast.

But I'm still here, and I'm not going to leave you alone.  And if you throw a "jealous" blast, don't expect not to get hammered back in the grill.  I don't did the pedopheliac subculture that's being generated here, because, guess what, I like movies, and puget likes young boys.

He's a sick fuck, and you're not, and you should distinguish yourself as such even if we disagree on whether I'm trying to bully a forum or not.  I'm not, until that creep showed up, and now I'll do whatever I feel like.

Nothing personal, seriously.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 20, 2007, 07:00:13 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/230/d04/230d0490-3c2d-4ce3-9776-35609a227b3a)

Charming conversationalist, isn't she?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 21, 2007, 01:49:27 AM
I wrapped up Pandora's Box last night.  The last three acts are quite a transition from the first five, although Schigolch serves an ominous link.  Somehow the tragedy doesn't work for me.  Maybe if there had been a darker tone set to the earlier acts, it may have worked, but there was too much a comic element to the action.  I couldn't stand Quast and was so glad to see him iced.  I suppose he felt he could have Lulu for himself if he sprung her free and was a bit jealous of Alwa, who sunk into the pit of depravity just as his father had forwarned.  I guess the hardest part for me to imagine is Lulu as a femme fatale in all this.  She seemed more a victim of circumstance.

The Countess is probably the most intriguing character for me.  Pabst creates a very obvious love interest between her and Lulu.  It is she she wants, but Lulu brazenly sends her in the direction of Quast to try to save her own hide.  The Countess would do anything for Lulu, but obviously didn't share her interest in men.

I thought it was quite interesting the way Pabst showed so much anguish in Jack the Ripper's face, seemingly smitten by the lovely Lulu as well, but then he seemed smitten by the Salvation Army girl as well.  Jack desperately tried to fight back his urge to kill, but there were simply too many demons.  Reminded me of Leland Palmer in Twin Peaks. 

(http://onewaystreet.typepad.com/one_way_street/images/28dvd650.jpg)

I tried the second half with the more modern score, but didn't hear much improvement.  The music takes away from the tragedy that befalls Lulu and Alwa, being so light and airy.  Definitely a job for Kronos Quartet.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 21, 2007, 02:27:12 AM

I tried the second half with the more modern score, but didn't hear much improvement.  The music takes away from the tragedy that befalls Lulu and Alwa, being so light and airy.  Definitely a job for Kronos Quartet.


The final Jack the Ripper scene is improved immensely by the Kronos/Glass/Dracula soundtrack. It worked fairly well for me during the opening art deco apartment scene as well.

I guess what I like about the Kronos soundtrack is that it makes the Weimar Period more relevant and authentic to me.

It was a very difficult and complex time for Germany. Especially for German artists, writers and intellectuals caught up between economic chaos... and the nazi pack of wolves waiting to grab power and jumpstart their 1000 year Empire agenda.

Kronos and Glass and Dracula... This alternate quartet soundtrack for me captures the angst and weltschmerz nicely...

Pandora's Box seen and heard this way... is just as scary and horrifying as the classic Universal horror movies...

I look around at the current Zeitgeist... and what do I see? I see Weimar... all around me...





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 21, 2007, 02:56:48 AM

I guess the hardest part for me to imagine is Lulu as a femme fatale in all this.  She seemed more a victim of circumstance.

The Countess is probably the most intriguing character for me.  Pabst creates a very obvious love interest between her and Lulu. 


Louise Brooks imho was more a victim than femme fatale througout her whole life. She was caught up in early Hollywood power-politics when films were shifting to sound and the producers were trying to save money by cutting actor salaries for the new sound equipment. This is one of the things one can learn from the 2nd disc interview with Brooks and how in retrospect she saw her life. She wasn't as burlesque as Marlene Dietrich who almost got the part. In many ways she stayed the small town Kansas girl that she was... the Bible Belt mindset and all that...

I think it's in the Lulu Berlin commentary... where Brooks humorously mentions Alice Roberts difficulty playing the lesbian Countess Geschwitz. The dance scene for example. What Pabst did was to have Roberts concentrate on Pabst's face during the dance scene...which supposedly gave Roberts the, well, proper mindset to be and feel in love with Lulu.

The lesbian bars in Berlin catering to those who liked the Marlene Dietrich tuxedo-drag cabaret scene perhaps influenced Pabst to portray the Countess as the icy aloof smooth lover of Lulu. She reminded me somewhat of Angelina Jolie the lesbian commander in Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (1994).

Sky Captain had many nazi super-science themes like Lawrence Olivier playing Dr. Totenkopf... as well as the giant robots doing in NYC and much of the futuristic decor and uniforms. If the nazis had won the war...the world of tomorrow would be very different today. Phillip K. Dick of course in The Man in the High Castle postulated the reverse...two alternate worlds one in which the Axis Powers rule as victors of WWII... interfacing with our world... Something like Weimar interfacting with the Third Reich...

It's the Glass/Kronos/Dracula soundtrack, however, that made me think these thoughts. Something, dzimas, I thank you for because of the way it opened up Pabst's film for me. Plus it renews my interest in the darker side of Weimar cinema in ways I didn't anticipate...

One of the advantages of doing one film at a time... and really concentrating on it...

Thank you...







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 21, 2007, 11:30:30 AM
Dzimas, re:#513

Basically,the Wedekind plays (he was a playwright) with the theme of Lulu and the Countess have been more recently adapted in the New York theater.  I have absolutely no idea however under what sort of title, nor recall the timing on this one, merely that I saw them reviewed and that was about it; seemed to have left the impression that it did not maintain interest at the time.  If I run across any thing turning up, which is harder than ever to count on these days from the "usual sources", will post.

You may be interested however in how Frank Wedekind, forerunner of Expressionism as a German art-form, all of which was considered "decadent-art", strongly influenced Bertold Brecht as a playwright from a politic point of view.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 21, 2007, 12:27:09 PM
I didn't make the connection, until you mentioned it maddie, but Pandora's Box is very much structured like a play, and Pabst obviously took his ideas from Wedekind, who wrote the "Lulu" plays, apparently even playing Jack the Ripper in one of the productions.  All though, to read the brief bio in wikipedia, Wedekind was much more graphic in his tales, not to mention lurid, whereas Pabst chose to imply these more seamy elements of the life of Lulu.  Interesting essay comparing Wedekind with O'Neill,

http://www.eoneill.com/library/newsletter/vi_1/vi-1e.htm


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 21, 2007, 12:55:32 PM

I am rather surprised in the competitive interest with Movies and Movie Club that no one caught TCM the other night -- which was a night of Tod Browning, the original purveyor of  Dracula.


(http://www.olgabaclanova.com/picture_gallery/movies/dove_cs_3s_sos/three_sinners_693-96_6.jpg)

Olga Baclanova

Three Sinners (1928)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 21, 2007, 12:57:00 PM
(http://www.olgabaclanova.com/picture_gallery/movies/dangerous_woman/dangerous_woman_745-138_6.jpg)

Olga Baclanova

Publicity Photo


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 21, 2007, 12:58:29 PM
(http://www.olgabaclanova.com/picture_gallery/movies/freaks/pgp-22931_commissary_6.jpg)

Baclanova in the MGM commissary, probably during the filming of Freaks, judging by the styling of her hair.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 21, 2007, 01:00:19 PM
(http://www.olgabaclanova.com/picture_gallery/movies/freaks/29_roscoe_in_drag_6.jpg)

Roscoe in drag, having a spat with Hercules about their performance. The script synopsis reveals that act featured Hercules rescuing "Roman Lady" Roscoe from a wild bull.

(Me and Jbottle...)
   :) :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 21, 2007, 01:11:58 PM
That whole "Hercules" thing with Quast was something.  He seemed to serve only one purpose in the movie and that was to spring Lulu from the courtroom.  I don't know why they needed the courtroom scene anyway.  She and Alwa could have fled the night of his father's death and really been fugitives, but I suppose it made for added drama.  If you have someone like Louise Brooks you want to stretch out the action as long as possible.  Has anyone read the "Lulu" plays to see how Pabst put this film together?

I couldn't stand Schigolch at first but he came to play a vital role in the film.  He seemed to be pimping out Lulu with Alwa oblivious to how these little gifts were coming into their garret.  The three of them together really represented the lowest state of depravity, but I guess the two needed some kind of father figure to keep them going, since they were both so innocent.  However, it seemed Lulu had lost her innocence by this point.  Interesting how Pabst chose to let Schigolch have his Christmas pudding while Alwa went off with the Salvation Army, leaving poor Lulu alone in her death. 

I thought Brooks played those closing scenes quite well, and she looked grand in the riverboat scene.  So many lurid elements hinted at, including the attempt to sell her off to the Egyptian.  I imagine the movie caused quite a stir in its day, even if it was a tamer version of the Lulu plays.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 21, 2007, 01:45:45 PM


(http://www.bluecatbooks.com/shop_image/product/446.jpg)

BROOKS, LOUISE Lulu In Hollywood

New York Knopf 1982 First Edition. Quarto. Signed presentation copy from Louise Brooks, inscribed by the author: “To Gareth L. Pawlowski, Louise Brooks, 13 Aug, 1982.” Fine in a fine dust jacket. The intriguing and candid memoirs of the great silent film star. Illustrated. Listed in 100 Books on Hollywood & the Movies.
Price: $3,000.00 other currencies   order no. 10805E
offered by: James Pepper Rare Books, Inc.   (USA)


http://search.abaa.org/dbp2/search.php


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 21, 2007, 02:07:10 PM
Kraft Raschig as Rodrigo Quast (as Carl Raschig)

Also as Mackie Messer's Gang Member

In 3groschenoper, Die (1931)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0021818/


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 21, 2007, 06:47:59 PM
Dzimas,re:#517 and your posted article.

Interesting that this is published in 1982, when I arrived back in New Jersey by August, there were a lot of ordinary library books available to me that dealt with interesting prior events in the neighborhood at the Shore.  Although the first one that I encountered was  Ezra Pound's going away party at which the poet,H.D. threw herself into the ocean  and was retrieved by Dr. William Carlos Williams before she drowned herself(as she wore the same sort of hairdo, at least simulated,as our recent acquaintance Louise Brooks, you can imagine the amount of drinking that went into   impromptu swim in the Atlantic. Hilda Doolittle may not have intended to fake the bobbed hair, as she was into a Sapphic phase and  tied her hair back with "filaments"depicted in classic Greek art. That band to set off bobbed hair had however followed upon the appearance of Lulu and became an international fashion statement).

An article in the paper alerted me that Eugene O'Neill and his wife Agnes(Oona)Boulton had once lived in her father's house in West Point Pleasant; which had a painter's studio because her father had studied  with Thomas Eakins at the Philadelphia Academy of Fine Arts (probably about the time of the students forming the Art Students League of Philadelphia; Eakins went on to teach at the Art Students League of New York, The National Academy of Design,and the Cooper Union). You probably recognize Agnes Boulton's Irish name: Oona. O'Neill and Boulton(also a writer) were the parents of Oona O'Neill who married Charlie Chaplin. O'Neill was a bit livid about that.

This I found out because I immediately went for Barbara Gelb's biography of O'Neill and sought out the house.


The article on the Eugene O'Neill resemblence to Wedekind starts out with,"The American playwright spent many of his young adult years in the alcoholic depths of New York City...". Which is quite an understatement. He met Agnes at the Golden Swan Saloon in Greenwich Village, later known as The Hell Hole, which becomes the setting of, The Iceman Cometh, played rather well I hear by Kevin Spacey and that Richardson daughter of Vanessa Redgrave.

Agnes Boulton soon realized she had an alcoholic on her hands; and, to pry him loose from his pals at the GSS, decided to drag him to her father's house by the same milk train that probably delivered William Carlos Williams and Hilda Doolittle to that houseparty at the Shore. She thought that he could be 'dried out', and that he could actually get something written at the house but he hated the place, went for long walks down past where the diner is today and along the beach to breathe in the salt air and listen to the ocean.  He had been a merchant seaman and written some of his plays about that such as, The Emperor Jones, with Paul Robeson.   But then he would hop on a train back to Greenwich Village or hitch a ride.  Yet, O'Neill made enough money writing for the theatre to send his daughter Oona to one of the very best girls' schools where she met and became life-long friends with Carol Grace(Truman Capote's friend, although not yet) and Gloria Vanderbilt.   Which of the girls was dated by J.D. Salinger? I always thought it was Carol;or, why I said,"not yet". O'Neill had divorced Agnes Boulton four years after the birth of Oona, in order to marry the actress Carlotta Monterey.

To read this biography immediately leads to another biographical work on Louise Bryant and her relationship to Jack Reed, who are of course semi-intimately involved with O'Neill at Provincetown, and the Provincetown Playhouse in Greenwich Village.  Eugene O'Neill is one of the finer roles played by Jack  Nicholson who attended school in Manasquan, New Jersey, near where he was born.


Then, in a bit,your posted article goes on to  say,"...O'Neill's intimate acquaintance with vaudeville, for James O'Neill was famous for his endlessly-repeated role as the Count of Monte Cristo. O'Neill recognized the influence of his father's life as a well-known vaudevillian and once remarked, "I had known the theatre pretty intimately, because of my father's connection with it."

I should say so. Not only intimately but he was born there; during the run when his parents were on the road and they put him in a bureau drawer in the dressing room.  I'm not making this up. It's in the Gelb biography.  But, of course, you have to picture Katharine Hepburn, as she was in --Long Day's Journey into Night, putting little Eugene in the bureau drawer (or Baby Jack,in swaddling clothes, however you prefer).


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 22, 2007, 03:43:23 AM
The only play (of the half dozen I've read or seen) of O'Neill that I really liked was The Iceman Cometh.  The tragic aspects of his characters always seemed forced to me, with the notable exception of Hickey.  It is good to see they did another version of the play.  I can more readily see Kevin Spacey as Hickey,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mhYNX_KCIY

than I ever could Lee Marvin,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070212/

Funny to see Jeff Bridges turn up in this earlier movie version.

Here's a review of the original production,

http://www.eoneill.com/artifacts/reviews/ic1_times.htm


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 22, 2007, 03:47:25 AM
Puget, I think John Lurie could come up with a pretty good score for Pandora's Box as well.  Stranger than Paradise,

(http://www.madman.com.au/wallpapers/stranger_than_paradise_245_1024.jpg)

has some of the same qualities of Pandora's Box, but told with much more humor.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 22, 2007, 09:41:29 AM
I just saw a remake last night of the all time Horror film, The Wicker Man
--which has given me some thought on how our concepts change in this genre according to the era.  The 2006 version, with Nicholas Cage no less, is a let down as it panders to attitude changes currently taking place in our society that are of a political nature.

The original 1973 film, now called Anthony Shaffer's,The Wicker Man, was filmed in Scotland and the plot made perfectly clear that it was about Druids; and what made it so frightening was the premise that there were modern day Druids still practicing.  I can remember being up in Montreal for an exhibition of symbolist artists, a very large scale undertaking in why Symbolism had become important to  Art (and Literature) at a certain period, and discovering some huge paintings by an artist unknown to me and whose subject matter Druids although stylistically very different than ever depicted before.  After viewing several examples of these paintings, one came away with an unsettling feeling for which you could not quite account that must have derived from one's own train of thought when considering what the painter had conveyed in his medium. You were part of the process.

I did not think of this again until seeing Shaffer's film, having by now forgotten the name of the painter, and I sat in front of my tv going along with the premise until the shocking conclusion.

What differs so greatly between that original and the 2006 remake with a cast of well known faces popping up amidst the character actors, is that Anthony Shaffer was the writer of Sleuth, Murder on the Orient Express,
Death on the Nile, etc..

To be sure, his production is the basis of the permission given for the remake, but then the not-so-fine-tooling began which
brought it up to date, when "it" had been what is considered a British cult classic.

I was excited last night to see the new version and am also very sorry that I called attention to it over in Television forum before realizing what it actually is now.

There have been two documentaries made to be shown on tv following the original film of Anthony Shaffer's The Wicker Man, one to discuss how the film was made and has the cast discussing the sources of the material adapted to film. The second documentary discussed the problematics of getting the film shown anywhere because of that source material.  One of the problems was an advisory that it not be shown to children. This is advisable from the point of view that an attraction to playing with fire or enacting something seen is so strong in children.

Of course, nowadays, I don't think it comes with that warning in the latest version by permission of the original owners with copyright, since there are obviously children participating in the film in accord with the story line. It comes with a lot of cheap shots like that of Nicholas Cage, in his harried frantic objective, running through a room with laboratory preserved specimens of fetuses, so that you feel at the very least as if some Rosemary's Baby overtones are coloring this foresty-island nature setting.

I rather wish that they had just left the original alone, instead of trying to make a profit by selling off a concept.  That way it would leave something on film to scare the adults who could then later remind themselves that it was after all only a movie.

                             


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 22, 2007, 10:37:52 AM
Yesterday evening I watched Mulholland Dr. because you people were speaking about it.I think I´ll have to watch it again and take down notes. I understood some of it but I missed the general idea.The sentence "everything is an illusion" is ,I suppose, the clue.The two blond girls were so similar they drove me nuts.
Is there any good link to David Lynch? I found like 9 million,but which are good.Thank you for any help.I had watched Twin Peaks and I feel that he is like a magic babushka box one has to open and marvels come out. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 22, 2007, 10:49:29 AM
...this post really belongs in "Movies".I´ve also seen Elephant, Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 22, 2007, 11:19:46 AM
Thanks, again, Dzimas for the post of the eoneill.library/newsletter
where I found this fascinating coverage of something that I brought up in first response to your post:
Critical reactions to Jack Nicholson's screen performance as O'Neill

I loved the way the end remark was allowed to Oona O'Neill. She had as you can probably understand a most troubled emotional position about her father and particularly after she was aware of how he disapproved of her husband (pretty much for the same things of which he was guilty in his womanizing to which he had sacrificed his young family and leaving Oona without a fulfilling sense of having a father until Chaplin came along).


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 22, 2007, 11:31:26 AM
During Chaplin's legal trouble over the Berry affair, he met Oona O'Neill, daughter of Eugene O'Neill, and married her on June 16, 1943. He was fifty-four; she had just turned eighteen. The elder O'Neill refused all contact with Oona after the marriage, up until his death. O'Neill and Chaplin each seemed to provide elements missing in the others' lives: she longed for the love of a father figure, and Chaplin craved her loyalty and support as his public popularity declined. The marriage was a long and happy one, with eight children. They had three sons: Christopher, Eugene and Michael Chaplin and five daughters: Geraldine, Josephine, Jane, Victoria and Annette-Emilie Chaplin. Oona survived Chaplin by fourteen years, but her final years were unhappy, with grief over Chaplin's death eventually leading to alcoholism. She died from pancreatic cancer in 1991.

AND just for good measure, a prior relationship: Louise Brooks

A specialty dancer in Florenz Ziegfeld's Follies, Louise Brooks met Chaplin when he came to New York for the opening there of The Gold Rush. They cavorted with film financier A.C. Blumenthal and Follies dancer Peggy Fears in Blumenthal's penthouse suite at the Ambassador Hotel. Brooks was with Chaplin when he spent four hours watching a musician torture a violin in a lower East Side restaurant, an act he would recreate in Limelight. The relationship ended at summer's end.

quotes from the context of wikipedia article on Charlie Chaplin


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 22, 2007, 11:51:21 AM
I wrapped up Pandora's Box last night.  The last three acts are quite a transition from the first five, although Schigolch serves an ominous link.  Somehow the tragedy doesn't work for me.  Maybe if there had been a darker tone set to the earlier acts, it may have worked, but there was too much a comic element to the action.  I couldn't stand Quast and was so glad to see him iced.  I suppose he felt he could have Lulu for himself if he sprung her free and was a bit jealous of Alwa, who sunk into the pit of depravity just as his father had forwarned.  I guess the hardest part for me to imagine is Lulu as a femme fatale in all this.  She seemed more a victim of circumstance.

The Countess is probably the most intriguing character for me.  Pabst creates a very obvious love interest between her and Lulu.  It is she she wants, but Lulu brazenly sends her in the direction of Quast to try to save her own hide.  The Countess would do anything for Lulu, but obviously didn't share her interest in men.

I thought it was quite interesting the way Pabst showed so much anguish in Jack the Ripper's face, seemingly smitten by the lovely Lulu as well, but then he seemed smitten by the Salvation Army girl as well.  Jack desperately tried to fight back his urge to kill, but there were simply too many demons.  Reminded me of Leland Palmer in Twin Peaks. 

(http://onewaystreet.typepad.com/one_way_street/images/28dvd650.jpg)

I tried the second half with the more modern score, but didn't hear much improvement.  The music takes away from the tragedy that befalls Lulu and Alwa, being so light and airy.  Definitely a job for Kronos Quartet.

I didn't have such a hard time buying into the tragedy, depending on the score.   I didn't spend as much time with the second orchestral score, but I thought the first one quite fitting.  Lulu seemed tragic and headed for trouble to me from early on when her first mentor has to be hid on the balcony.  A certain seediness there and it seemed apparent that she was headed for trouble.  

I watched it with the Cabaret score and found that viewing quite a bit more ironic than the orchestral.  

Overall I preferred Oliva's piano score.  A couple of stand-outs for me there....the court scene and the whole score in that section built over a drone of an E in the bass while the defense presents its case, resolved into a trill on E and F when the prosecutor steps forward....nice tension builder.  Then when the countess steps forward to defend Lulu, he uses the E again, only this time in jumps based on the e minor chord, mordanted against a minor second.  Also like the pensive quality of the piano when Jack step out of the fog at the beginning of Act 8.  Although he could have moved things along a bit into the scene where Lulu invites Jack up.  Oliva seems to be working here on the idea that playing the same thing at a louder dynamic builds tension....maybe, but better if he'd also had a rising melodic line.  He did resolve it nicely for the scene that begins when Lulu takes the candle and mistletoe from Jack's pocket going into the murder, though.  It fits the idea that Louise commented on, that the whole thing seemed more like a Christmas party than a murder scene.





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 22, 2007, 11:58:55 AM

I tried the second half with the more modern score, but didn't hear much improvement.  The music takes away from the tragedy that befalls Lulu and Alwa, being so light and airy.  Definitely a job for Kronos Quartet.


The final Jack the Ripper scene is improved immensely by the Kronos/Glass/Dracula soundtrack. It worked fairly well for me during the opening art deco apartment scene as well.

I guess what I like about the Kronos soundtrack is that it makes the Weimar Period more relevant and authentic to me.

It was a very difficult and complex time for Germany. Especially for German artists, writers and intellectuals caught up between economic chaos... and the nazi pack of wolves waiting to grab power and jumpstart their 1000 year Empire agenda.

Kronos and Glass and Dracula... This alternate quartet soundtrack for me captures the angst and weltschmerz nicely...

Pandora's Box seen and heard this way... is just as scary and horrifying as the classic Universal horror movies...

I look around at the current Zeitgeist... and what do I see? I see Weimar... all around me...





How did the Glass line up scene for scene with Pandora?  I see the Dracula has 26 scenes.  The first, which introduces Dracula running 1:12...shorter than the apartment scene with Lulu.  Which scene did you match up to the Ripper scene?  In the piano score, there is a dead silence as Jack leaves the murder scene...quite compelling, I thought.  What did you get with the Glass? 



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 22, 2007, 12:00:18 PM
As to Dzimas's comment earlier on unbelievability...what I found incomprehensible was Lulu's attraction to Alwa....sap...big time.  Perhaps the attraction was due to her mistreatment at the hands of "real men?"  but then why reject the countess?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 22, 2007, 12:09:12 PM
Perhaps the dynamics weren't right for Louise, the actress; as it has been brought up several times, she was molested as a child, by a man. I think that would have everything to do with how she played the responses involved to the come-on by the countess;  psychologically shrugging off being the "femme" to the more dominant role of the countess' sexuality.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 22, 2007, 12:10:46 PM
Quote
... but then why reject the countess?


That's a good question. The Countess seemed by far the most appealling of her choices. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 22, 2007, 03:39:18 PM
(http://www.philipglass.com/images/recordings/dracula.1.jpg)

Kronos / Glass / Dracula


What did you get with the Glass? 


I have this Bose Wave Radio/CD in my living room—I just leave it on all the time sometimes. It’s got this CD mode—Track Repeat. So I just pick a track I like—and listen to it until I’m sick of it.

Like Cage—I like chance. So what I’ve been doing with Lulu, Metropolis and M is pretty simple—I pick a track and just let it play. The Bose has a random track thing too—when I get bored with the same track.

I’m so lazy—yet a glutton for frisson. That opening Kronos / Glass / Dracula piece is so creepy—me and cat end up tip-toeing thru the house at night—looking under the bed and peeking down into the basement—just to make sure Bela ain’t there…

Other times I like my earphones—they’re more intimate when it comes to scaring the you-know-what outta me. Especially when I watch Triumph of the Will—with Kronos / Glass / Dracula in the background.

Watching movies this way reminds me of the Monsters of the Id—oozing into our world from the high-tech depths of some strange parallel Forbidden Planet coexistent with ours…

As if some kind of Portal had been opened by the Germans—and something very art deco futuristic like Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (2004) slipped for a little bit sideways in time—giving us a glimpse of what perhaps enthralled Riefenstahl Fritz Lang…

The winged chevron SS skulls gracing the flying robot machines and other special neo-nazi sci-fi effects I thought very Fritz Lang / Metropolis-like…all of which was given a dark edge by Kronos… I liked Angelina Jolie—the Lulu-like Lesbos Commanderess playing Captain Franky Cook.

The thing about Kronos—by turning off the regular movie soundtrack and essentially making it a Silent Film—then putting the Bose repeat into play—there’s a novelty disconnect that happens—adding something new to the Film.

I’ve tried the same thing with Glass’s Symphony #2—the short 4:27 minute first movement—the same hypnotizing repetitiveness as Kronos / Dracula.

Saturday night I watched Son of Dracula (1943) with Lon Chaney Jr, Louise Allbritton and Evelyn Ankers—with Kronos / Dracula and, well, it scared the you-know-what out of me.  But then I’ve always been a sucker for Dracula movies—a bloodsucker that is…
    ;D



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 22, 2007, 09:32:32 PM
There is an interesting feminist aspect to the development of Polly in "Three Penny Opera."  First scene has Polly under her mother's thumb, then turned over to Mackie.  At the wedding, Polly sings the Say No song and her pose is almost a reflection of the bridal manequin...the source of her dress, an object.  As the film goes on, Polly comes into her own, takes over Mackie's gang, buys a bank, saves him from hanging.  Final scene, the Beggar King, the chief crook and the chief of police all brought together due to Polly's good sense.

The camera work here is interesting, too.  The scene that brings about the first change has Polly warning Mackie that he is to be arrested.  The scene opens with Mackie in a position of power, standing above one of his gang members, dictating rules for a robbery in the works.  The gang member must look up to address Mackie.  Polly enters, from above, and Mackie looks up to greet her. 



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 22, 2007, 11:31:01 PM
Never been overly interested in Polly Peachum; I'm a Jenny Diver fan. As a concept, Pirate Jenny provides  the songs of interesting composition: Black Pirate, for instance.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 22, 2007, 11:35:07 PM
I mean what can you do with,"Our Polly is a Sad Slut", sung by Mr.and Mrs. Peachum?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 22, 2007, 11:39:35 PM
Nina Simone does a great version of Pirate Jenny.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 22, 2007, 11:40:18 PM
"...the Marxian principle so dear to Brecht of progress arising from a synthesis of opposites."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 22, 2007, 11:51:44 PM
The roles were cast with actors rather than trained singers, who spoke their lines rhythmically and with vague intonation, their easy linear melodies often doubled by an instrument. (Interestingly, both LPs of the original Beggar's Opera use separate casts for the dialogue and singing.) A seven-piece band sat at the rear of the stage surrounding a fairground pipe organ, and a seedy half-curtain hung from a rod, as if to only barely disguise the theatrical artifice, while amply flaunting a rag-tag attitude.

Classical notes from Peter Gutmann


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 12:01:22 AM
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1559702524/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-9958069-1421637#reader-link

This paperback has the Raul Julia  cover from the Joseph Papp production in 1976; we were just talking about  him the other day in the other side of the house. Raul Julia that is.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 12:10:34 AM
(Seerauber Jenny)

Here's an English translation, by whom I don't know:

Ahh you people can watch while i'm scrubbing these floors
And i'm scrubbing these floors while you're gawking
Maybe once you tip me and it makes you feel swell
In this crummy southern town
In this pit of hotel
But you'll never guess to who you're talking
No
You'll never guess to who you're talking

Then one night there's a scream in the night
And you wonder: 'who could that have been ?'
And you see me kind of grinning while i'm scrubbing
And you say 'what she got to grin ?'
I'll tell ya
There's a ship
The black freighter
With a skull on it's mast-head
Will be coming in

You gentlemen say: 'hey gal, finish them floors
What's wrong with you ? earn your keep here'
You toss me your tips and look to the ships
But i'm counting your heads as i'm making the beds
'cause there's nobody gonna sleep here tonight
No
Nobody
No-one
No-one

Then one night there's a scream in the night
And you say: 'who's that kicking up a row?'
And you see me kinda staring out the window
And you say: 'what she got to stare at now ?'
I'll tell ya
There's a ship
The black freighter
Turns around in the harbour
Shooting guns from her bow

Well you gentlemen can wipe those smiles off your face
'cause every building in town is a flat one
This whole frigging place will be down to the ground
Only this cheap hotel standing up, safe and sound
And you yell: 'why do they spare that one ?
'why?
'why the hell do they spare that one ?'

All the night through with the noise and to do
And you wonder: 'who is that person that lives up there ?'
And you see me stepping out in the morning
Looking fine with a ribbon in my hair
Well just look at me now
And a ship
The black freighter
Runs a flag up it's mast-head
And a cheer rings the air. hey!

My ??? on the dock is a swarming with men
Coming out from the ghostly freighter
They're moving in the shadows where no-one can see
And they're chaining up people
And delivering 'em to me
Asking me: 'kill them now or later ?'
Asking me: 'kill them now or later ?'

Noon by the clock and so still at the dock
You can hear a fog horn miles away
And in that quiet of death i'll say:
'right now !'
'right now !'
And they pile up the bodies
And i'll say: 'that'll learn you.
That'll learn you.'

And the ship
The black freighter
Disappears out to sea
And
On
It
Is
Me !


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 12:16:54 AM
Pirate Jenny lyriken

(Seerauber Jenny)

Ist hier eine englische Übersetzung, durch die ich nicht weiß:

Ahh, das Sie bevölkeren, kann aufpassen, während ich diese Fußböden scheuere
Und ich scheuere diese Fußböden, während Sie gaffen
Möglicherweise, sobald Sie mich spitzen und es bildet Sie Gefühlschwellen
In dieser miesen südlichen Stadt
In dieser Grube des Hotels
Aber Sie schätzen nie zu, wem Sie sprechen
Nein
Sie schätzen nie zu, wem Sie sprechen

Dann ist eine Nacht dort ein Scream in der Nacht
Und Sie Wunder: ' wer das gewesen sein könnte?'
Und Sie sehen mich Art des Grinsens, während ich mich scheuere
Und Sie sagen ', was sie erhielt, um zu grinsen?'
Ich erkläre ya
Es gibt ein Schiff
Der schwarze Frachter
Mit einem Schädel auf ihm ist Mastkorb
Wird hereinkommen

Sie Herren sagen: ' he beenden Gallone, sie Fußböden
Was ist mit Ihnen falsch? erwerben Sie Ihren Unterhalt hier '
Sie werfen mich Ihre Spitzen und schauen zu den Schiffen
Aber ich zähle Ihre Köpfe, während ich die Betten bilde
' Ursache dort ist niemand, die geht, hier heute abend zu schlafen
Nein
Niemand
Niemand
Niemand

Dann ist eine Nacht dort ein Scream in der Nacht
Und Sie Sagen: ' wer ist, daß, tretend herauf eine Reihe?'
Und Sie sehen mich, aus dem Fenster ein bischen anzustarren
Und Sie Sagen: ' was sie erhielt, entlang jetzt anzustarren?'
Ich erkläre ya
Es gibt ein Schiff
Der schwarze Frachter
Umdrehungen herum im Hafen
Schießende Gewehren von ihrem Bogen

Brunnen können Sie Herren jenes Lächeln weg von Ihrem Gesicht abwischen
' verursachen Sie jedes Gebäude in der Stadt ist ein flaches
Dieser vollständige frigging Platz ist unten zu Boden
Nur dieses preiswerte Hotel, das oben stehen, Safe und Ton
Und Sie Yell: ' warum sie, dieses ersparen?
' warum?
' warum die Hölle, ersparen sie dieses?'

Die ganze Nacht durch mit den Geräuschen und tun
Und Sie Wunder: ' wer diese Person ist, die lebt oben dort?'
Und Sie sehen mich, heraus morgens zu treten
Fein schauen mit einem Band in meinem Haar
Gerechter Blick des Brunnens auf mich jetzt
Und ein Schiff
Der schwarze Frachter
Läßt eine Markierungsfahne herauf sie ist Mastkorb laufen
Und ein Beifall schellt die Luft he!

Mein??? auf dem Dock ist ein Schärmen mit Männern
Kommen heraus vom gespenstischen Frachter
Sie ziehen in die Schatten um, in denen niemand sehen kann
Und sie ketten herauf Leute an
Und ' EM zu mir liefernd
Fragen mich: ' töten Sie sie jetzt oder später?'
Fragen mich: ' töten Sie sie jetzt oder später?'

Mittag durch den Taktgeber und so noch am Dock
Sie können Meilen eines Nebelhorns entfernt hören
Und in dem auf stille Art des Todes sage ich:
' im Augenblick!'
' im Augenblick!'
Und sie häufen herauf die Körper an
Und ich sage: ' that'll erlernen Sie.
That'll erlernen Sie.'

Und das Schiff
Der schwarze Frachter
Verschwindet heraus zum Meer
Und
Auf
Es
Ist
Ich! übersetzen Sie
 
 

Sehen Sie auch: Alle unsortierten Lyriken / aller Kurt Weill Index Lyriken / K7 / voll K Index


 Nützliche Verbindungen 
Ich möchte Lyriken verlangen! - kann nicht Kurt Weill Lyriken finden? Gerechter GebrauchLyrikantrag.
Ich möchte einige Verbindungen einreichen - danke!
 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 01:23:47 AM
http://www.threepennyopera.org/music.php

After reading about Weill, please scroll down the cast members listed and you will reach a reproduction that I thought that I would never see again of Lotte Lenya, which was exhibited at the Jewish Museum in NYC several years ago. I had wished that I had saved it  but ....

At this point, almost immediately after as you scroll down, there will be the two examples of her voice recorded with I think they said it was a 30 year timespan.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 01:33:50 AM
http://www.threepennyopera.org/histAmerica.php

second one down, the Capalbo direction with Lotte Lenya, opposite guess who? Jerry Orbach, and many other interesting people, I mean just look at that cast! Isn't it unbelievable?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 01:40:30 AM
Spring 1938 The Nazis stop playing songs from Threepenny at their exhibition of “Degenerate Art” in Düsseldorf, because too many people are enjoying listening to them.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 01:47:36 AM
...you would hear those songs wherever you went in the evening.
               —George Grosz


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 01:59:14 AM
http://www.threepennyopera.org/audio.php

Interviews


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 02:23:29 AM
Intro for the whole darn site; browse, browse, and more browse.

http://www.threepennyopera.org/


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 23, 2007, 04:27:17 AM
Thanks for all the links, maddy. 

Quote
second one down, the Capalbo direction with Lotte Lenya, opposite guess who? Jerry Orbach, and many other interesting people, I mean just look at that cast! Isn't it unbelievable?

Great cast indeed!  I noticed that Bebe Neuwirth was in one of the productions.  That should have been fun to watch.

I guess this means Threepenny Opera is now under discussion.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 23, 2007, 04:51:57 AM
On another note, I could no longer resist the temptation,

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008H2GR/ref=ord_cart_shr/105-5791205-4542015?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

I have long been curious to see how Antoine Doinel ended up. 

Another interesting series about growing up,

http://www.amazon.com/Up-Seven-Plus-21-28/dp/B000SAGGLO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-5791205-4542015?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1193129484&sr=1-1



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 23, 2007, 04:57:01 AM
(http://www.threepennyopera.org/posters/1976ny.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 23, 2007, 06:19:07 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/bcc/21d/bcc21d97-e8e7-470d-aef9-c20cfbce21f5)

Brecht / Grosz

“When I started to write, there was still this idea that literature and art could be a very important tool to fight in historical terms, to improve the condition of victims in society. In this, Sartre was very influential with his idea of "committed" literature. This was very popular in Latin America at the time, though these ideas seem now a bit anachronistic. I don't think we can now believe, as we did in the 1950s, that what Sartre said - "words are acts" - is totally true. I don't think the political or moral effect of an artwork or literary work is immediate and has visible consequences. On the other hand, I do not think that art or writing is something that produces pleasure without consequence. In the case of Brecht, who was more or less a contemporary of Grosz, he was so convinced that writing, producing and directing plays could bring about extraordinary changes in society. It has not happened as he thought. Now, as with Brecht's plays, Grosz's art has become much more appreciated for artistic and aesthetic reasons than for social or moral ones. But that doesn't mean that there is no other effect than what we feel and experience when we see his work. For example, even though his caricatures are so schematic that they divide between good and evil, the sense of what is right and wrong is very instructive and enriching to me. So if you want to be a committed artist today, I think it is worth learning from the example of people such as Brecht and Grosz.”——Mario Vargas Llosa, “You Nourish Yourself With Everything You Hate,” TATE ETC, Issue 9, Spring 2007

http://www.tate.org.uk/tateetc/issue9/younourishwithhate.htm


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 23, 2007, 08:40:09 AM
(http://www.criterion.com/content/images/featured_dvd/185_feature_350x180.jpg)

http://www.criterion.com/asp/boxed_set.asp?id=185


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 10:36:17 AM
Dzimas,

Since I was just saw your post on drummers, have you discovered the jazz musicians in the contemporary performances of DGO? I ran across one with Max Roach, Sonny Rollins,etc.    It's a lot of material at www.threepennyopera.org  --

but, It Brought that All Back to Me, I get very nostalgic about the music in these performances.  The sheer genius of Weill.  (His libretto partner adapting to German, as you know, was a born Augsburger; we have the recipe back home for the beer where the immigrants from there settled --and I can tell you that it is our beer of choice in a state renowned for the production of beer.  All other major brands can not compare. It's either German beer or, "Augsburger".  I'm still trying to catch the last day of the Oktoberfest celebration because it is now all winding down.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 11:03:35 AM

(http://www.threepennyopera.org/posters/1976ny.jpg)
       

Das ist ein Raul Julia                 "poster"


I would have been very curious about the Tim Curry performance. The show itself received an unfavourable review.

Found it most interesting that the first New York performance occurred when Hitler had been elected Reichschancellor in '33.

That's why I would  be dubious about M.V. Llosa's views 1)he is a magic-realist (what does that say right there?) criticizing Expressionism from an ideological viewpoint.

But then I noticed that you took the same criteria re: Patrick Zarate's interpretation of Leni Riefenstahl's, at Das Blaue Licht Net coverage of: Triumph des Willens


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 23, 2007, 12:54:07 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/bdf/6d9/bdf6d967-e3a8-4ae0-8ed2-5e4baff9cdb6)


 :) :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 23, 2007, 12:58:01 PM
 Das ist ein Raul Julia                 "poster"
 

It looks more like Joe Don Baker.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 01:46:25 PM
Pugetopolis

I loved this one:

"His father must have been rough, and perhaps brutal: in his autobiography Grosz mentions that he scared him and his sister Marta by showing them dancing skeletons in the garden."  Quote from Tate Museum article by Mario Vargas Llosa

That's nothing, our Dad showed us the skeleton in the attic. It did not dance. He had put it together himself, from a Gross Lab cadaver from which he extracted the bones that he had boiled down on, Mrs. Petrie's, his landlady's stove in the rooming house where he lived near the medical school. How's that for besting House or Grey's Anatomy. It was that same Depression you see, when a skeleton procured from a pharmaceutical supplier(?) for instance was much too expensive for an ordinary med student to purchase when working his way through college.


"In the case of Brecht, who was more or less a contemporary of Grosz, he was so convinced that writing, producing and directing plays could bring about extraordinary changes in society. It has not happened as he thought." 

I think it did.

This is quite  toward the end of the essay :
"Now, as with Brecht's plays, Grosz's art has become much more appreciated for artistic and aesthetic reasons than for social or moral ones."

Fortunately,as a young person when I went to work for many artists teaching in places like The Art Students League( and other places mentioned earlier when referring to Eugene O'Neill having married the daughter of a man who studied with Thomas Eakins and was thus involved with this movement ) --because I was in a position to as a daughter of man who  was a professor of anatomy, not to mention all that dance study ala the descent from Mary Wigman,
what I found was that most of that generation of artists teaching within a decade after WW2  emphasized the social commentary and moral critique of George Grosz while not at all nonappreciative of his excellent technical skills and aesthetic sense.

I of course had never heard of him until listening to them teach their classes.  They were of course with the exception of one new, somewhat younger painting instructor( at a very Bauhaus design school) and a Hungarian metal sculptor at the university,all of them of German descent. Perhaps half of them were German-Jews; but, not all, one of my faves was a drawing instructor,  with one of those multi-European name combos, who had fought with the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front. Another  teaching at university was part of the Albers group (which I again discovered at the New York Art Students League) which had of course taught on the Black Mountain faculty along with the Black Mountain Poets.

If this period was intrinsically anti-Fascist, what does this say about the aftermath of the last thirty-two years (which just picked up where it left off  immediately before WW2), "Now", moralizing about art when artists identifiy with fascism because it provides so many "opportunities" ?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 23, 2007, 02:40:02 PM
Leni Riefenstahl / Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow

(http://www.dasblauelicht.net/ppdirecttriumpf1.JPG)

(http://img1.jurko.net/wall/paper/10-3.jpg)

Leni Riefenstahl pioneered the technique of filming charismatic leaders, frenzied crowds, symbols and icons of empire, marching soldiers, and powerful athletes. Each and every one of her techniques, made more seductive still by modern technology, enters our drawing rooms on a daily basis today. We only have to open our eyes to the incessant spell that the advertisers of global brands and propagandists of modern empires cast on us to see that the legacy of Leni Riefenstahl is far from dead…


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 23, 2007, 03:11:01 PM
(http://movies.radiofree.com/photos/sky_captain_and_the_world_of_tomorrow_16145.jpg)

(http://www.ueltzhoeffer.com/LOGO%20PICTURE/Angelina-Jolie.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 04:10:46 PM
You might want to get in to the G.W. Pabst film version of Dreigroshenoper and how it compares with stage-versions.  I am interested to hear how that worked out as, until about this last year, I wasn't quite aware that he really existed; he might have owned a brewery and invested in becoming a patron of the theatrical art for all I knew.  Once I saw what he actually looked like and his more recent publicity, I realized the nature of my mistake and that it was somebody else who was honoring his name, although I have not quite yet got the history on that one.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 23, 2007, 06:38:13 PM
My original comment is related to the Pabst version.  Pabst gives Jenny Diver a substantially lessened role in his version.  Many of the songs are cut, although "Pirate Jenny" is still there.  The ending is also changed in the movie.  Instead of Mackie being mysteriously elevated to knighthood, his wife, Polly takes over his gang while he is in prison and buys a bank instead of robbing it.  She puts up the bail to get him out of jail.  At the end, Mackie, the police chief and Polly's father are in business together. 

Polly's machinations were what I was referring to when I commented that it was interesting to watch her move from an object to a person in her own right throughout the movie.  This isn't true of Jenny.  The movie opens with Mackie and Jenny leaving the brothel together.  Polly walks past and Mackie quickly rids himself of Jenny.  Later, Jenny is informed of Mackie's marriage and turns him over to the police in an act of revenge.  Mackie manipulates her by reminding her of past times, and she changes her mind about betraying him and helps him escape.  Later, when he is arrested, she helps him escape from his cell by promising his cellkeeper sex. 

Jenny begins the movie in a brothel and ends there.  Polly, on the other hand, begins as a girl under her parents control, then marries Mackie, takes over his gang, becomes a businesswoman. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 23, 2007, 06:39:45 PM
It's interesting to note what Pabst does with mirrors, glass, reflection in the film.  Something always seems a bit skewed, as if what you see is never what you really get.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 23, 2007, 09:22:44 PM
(http://elm-asse-kultur.de/Kultverein/assets/images/Dreigroschenoper.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 23, 2007, 09:35:48 PM
(http://data1.blog.de/blog/b/biografien-news/img/Lenya.JPG)

Lotte Lenya

“It's the subtlety underneath the obviousness
that gives strength to The Threepenny Opera.”
                                        — Lotte Lenya


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 23, 2007, 10:04:41 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/bcc/21d/bcc21d97-e8e7-470d-aef9-c20cfbce21f5)

Walter Benjamin

“The Threepenny Opera makes it clear how
intimately the counter-morality of the beggars
and rogues is bound up with the official morality.”               
                               — Walter Benjamin


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 24, 2007, 03:05:49 AM
I hope to watch Threepenny Opera by the end of the week.  Interesting thoughts by Llosa.  I have to wonder how much any one book or movie or play or work of art can change anyone's life.  I suppose if one is young and impressionable, it can happen.  Certainly, a good book or movie can spur someone in a new direction.  But, I think that sense of power is incumbant on an audience taking that work of art to heart, and it seems Western audiences are pretty jaded these days.

BTW, I thought they did a pretty good job with Llosa's Aunt Julia in Tune in Tomorrow.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 24, 2007, 09:55:59 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/1ef/fe4/1effe4ad-b50b-4cb5-8502-7d8dadd5dfef)
Otto Dix

Decadence


But, I think that sense of power is incumbant on an audience
taking that work of art to heart, and it seems Western audiences
are pretty jaded these days.


Yes, dzimas, but so was Weimar Germany...

We're jaded and decadent too...but perhaps in a different way...

For example, the somewhat negative reaction to Pabst's choice of Louise Brooks as Lulu in Pandora's Box... What does that mean? That jaded Berliners and Germans wanted something "more" jaded like Marlene Dietrich? Brooks was too innocent? Euro-intellectuals and movie-theatergoers wanted something ironic or gallows-humor-esque to comment or critique the terrible economic situation after WWI?

The nazis had their own critique of course...perhaps even more radical and theatrical than Brecht, i.e. Leni Riefenstahl, Albert Speer's grandiose architectural plans, etc. It almost seems like two magic realisms were competing with each other to seize the reins of of Deutschland power during this time:

Franz Roh—In his 1925 book Nach Expressionismus: Magischer Realismus: Probleme der neusten europäischen Malerei ("After expressionism: Magical Realism: Problems of the newest European painting") he coined the term magic realism. During the Nazi regime, he was isolated and briefly put in jail, a time he used to write the book Der Verkannte Künstler: Geschichte und Theorie des kulturellen Mißverstehens ("The unrecognized artist: history and theory of cultural misunderstanding"). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

Threepenny Opera is, well, itself a Pandora's Box, isn't it? Is one more jaded than the other? Does Pandora portray decadence... while Opera satirizes it along the lines of Brecht?

It seems to me that Pabst, Lang and Brecht/Weil had their fingers on the pulse of what was going on... it was only a matter of time and economics which everyone was embedded in... to see who would, well, what?

Excel in the theatercraft of statecraft? All of this like us... in a time of accelerating decadence?

But what is decadence? It gets complicated...
   :) :) :)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 24, 2007, 10:10:49 AM
Dzimas,

I was referring to Brecht's statement being acknowledged by the public over a period  of onward seventy to eighty years in the case of just this one  artistic creation. In regard to his other works, there are those other intellectuals who think the importance is shared by Mother Courage.  It has to do with the ideas, once set in motion, remain changed.  

This was particularly noted (within the material that I posted from just one site)that with the first performances, the  local working classes came out to the theater, most of them for the first time in their lives and many of them did so for the rest of their lives (although, I can say for myself that I am presently having considerable difficulty, despite the extended performance run of Pirandello's,Six Characters in Search of an Author, in actually getting there).  

Particularly notable was that hearing of this unusual performance of Three Penny Opera through the grape-vine by word of mouth, as it was unlike any thing the "upper" rather than mittel-burgher classes were used to in the format of theatrical performance art (I'm sure lhoffman could tell you that is the case with what was normally associated with opera among German audiences), there was an interesting after-effect, in so far as that segment of the audience having laughed uproariously at themselves through the ironic humor of Brechtian dialogue as well as the wrong-end of the telescope spectacle mirroring back (and that may be what was noted by Lhoffman,re: Pabst's film, "It's interesting to note what Pabst does with mirrors, glass, reflection in the film.  Something always seems a bit skewed, as if what you see is never what you really get.") of self-awareness, self-consciousness about being bourgeois and having had that skewed consciousness. They found their outlook changed.

That consciousness gap between the classes has recently made the news again, one of the columnists in the previously TimesSelect sector of the nytimes.com  entered the fray by bringing up the disconnect between the upper-middle classes unawareness of working class problems at this point in the Bush administration; and she was instantly hit  by a barrage of responses suggesting that she take a good look at plain Middle-class for conditions unknown to the upper-middle as the reduction in standard of living has become so extreme.  

I had it further pointed out to me that the experiences at present of workers being dictated to on the job has caught them at a loss where there is a gap in consciousness due to their particular age as breadwinners for the family; none of them know that they are working under conditions, although they hate,which caused the political crisis under Naziism so that upper-middle class Weimar industrialists could retain their profits and led to a popular vote for the NSDAP.

They haven't been taught the similarities. That itself is a horse-laugh of the Berliner kind.

The posting in here referencing Walter Benjamin  is particularly apt, in regard to  this dual and ironic consciousness. I first become aware of  how this works with the unusual death of young John Kennedy and wife(and her sister) flying out from New York on their own without a flight plan under weather conditions where he possibly did not know that they were flying upside down.

This got me into some momentary trouble without even mentioning the Kennedys, during a blog by a young woman artist that ran for many months in nytimes.com TimesSelect, that is to say it was a Painterly Blog with commentaries of a poetic nature --and one day we were presented with one of those that included her depiction of a book in which Walter Benjamin revisited the Berlin of his childhood. Just for the hell of it, I posted if there was much difference in consciousness between two such Berliner children at the time as Walter B. and let's say Marlena Dietrich?

In the mind of one woman poster there was. Despite their sameness of class, "Of course, there was. Walter Benjamin was Jewish!"

Personally, I don't agree with that. (nobody else did either, at least not publicly)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 24, 2007, 10:22:53 AM
What's really great about this, pugetopolis:

Franz Roh—In his 1925 book Nach Expressionismus: Magischer Realismus: Probleme der neusten europäischen Malerei ("After expressionism: Magical Realism: Problems of the newest European painting") he coined the term magic realism. During the Nazi regime, he was isolated and briefly put in jail, a time he used to write the book Der Verkannte Künstler: Geschichte und Theorie des kulturellen Mißverstehens ("The unrecognized artist: history and theory of cultural misunderstanding"). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

-- is that the Nazis put Expressionist painters into "re-education" camps rather quickly as well, while the burning of books went on, and the exhibit of Degenerate Art went up as "let that be a lesson to you"; they continued to re-educate Expressionists where ever they went, when they occupied a country.  Paris was a field day of Eastern-born artists who had come west, making it to Paris for the same reasons as Picasso leaving Spain. There was a camp just on the outskirts to the north of Paris where Roualt and others were detained, their mistresses brought them packages of food and warm clothing; Picasso went south to Vichy.

I've been too busy recently to catch up my reading on Gertrude and Alice(Stein and Toklas, that is) who accordingly, to Janet Malcom, did the same.

Picasso, of course, was not Jewish; just Communist and that had already been a determining factor in Berlin.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 24, 2007, 10:37:45 AM
AS YOU CAN SEE, this presents a certain irony that a Walter Benjamin or his readers could fully appreciate; the misunderstanding of Nazi authorities arresting somebody and "isolating" them with jail -- because, as Nazis, they were such great appreciators and authorities on authentic art.



"Roh was, then, emphasizing the "magic" of the normal world as it presents itself to us (i.e., how, when we really look at everyday objects, they can appear strange and fantastic) and not the world of magic (in which objects are literally transformed into something fantastic) that the literary school emphasizes."

Previous paragraph:"... his magic realism has a very different meaning from the one used to describe the work of writers such as Gabriel Garcia Marquez and Isabel Allende that dominates our current understanding of the term. Roh, celebrating the post-expressionist return of the visual arts to figural representation, utilized the phenomenology of Edmund Husserl and Martin Heidegger to emphasize that "the autonomy of the objective world around us was once more to be enjoyed...."

Actually this has been happening again periodically, in a return to the figure (in painting) following a period of ersatz Cornell boxes and installations back in the early 1980s.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 24, 2007, 04:45:44 PM
Thank you Maddy...

Weimar cinema and theater very interesting.

Threepenny Opera Criterion copy arrived today...

Enjoyed Pandora's Box very much...

Am looking forward to watching it tonight and this weekend...

It's going to be an exquisitely decadent Thread I think...


 :) :) :)





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 25, 2007, 10:55:17 AM
Quote
But what is decadence? It gets complicated...   

Perhaps decadence is the natural state of things, related to the pursuit of more and lack of satisfaction with the status quo.  And humans understand the science well enough to understand that things left to their own devices collapse back into chaos.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 25, 2007, 11:36:08 PM
Plus, a bunch of people are pussies.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 25, 2007, 11:49:51 PM

Brecht / Faulkner

I was in a Brechtian mood tonight...

I got thru the commentary version of Threepenny Opera...

So asute... so mindboggling... so many film crit perspectives...

One being that Brecht was essentially a poet...

And the the Brecht/Weil songs in Threepenny Opera serve several purposes...

One being of course appealing to the audience... still popular lyrics and songs.

Mack the Knife... various versions by Darin and Sinatra all the way up until now...

Then there's the V-effect... alienating or rather educating the audience...

As to the plot and narrative that usually unfolds for the audience in time...

But with Pabst and Brecht and Weil... the songs interrupt the narrative...

To show what's going on... and what's going to happen... and what's already happened...

I went back and redid some of the Faulkner lyrics... tightening them up...

For Brechtian purposes... to interrupt the Roth Carrothers / Butch Beauchamp narrative...

The pomo pastiche flow I've been posting...

Brecht / Faulkner...   :)



I wanted to share this Fiction post with the Movie Club readers...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 26, 2007, 12:09:20 AM

(http://www.gatewayno.com/images/Faulkner2.jpg)

William Faulkner
—for Noel Polk

[Sung to the tune of Stephen
Foster’s “Camptown Races”]

Faulkner novels here I come—
Doo-dah doo-dah—
Sound and Fury oh so glum—
Oh dah-do-dah day…

Benjy Compson stupid Fool—
Doo-dah doo-dah—
Dirty panties way up there—
In that Old Pear Tree…

Oh that Southern Lit!!!
Oh that Dixie jive!!!
How I love it when it rots—
Oh dah-do-dah day!!!


Love that Quentin he’s so gay—
Doo-dah doo-dah—
Him and Dalton get it on—
Plus Caddy Compson too…

Love those Wild Palms & those Floods—
Doo-dah doo-dah—
Love those Snopes Boyz having fun—
Oh dah-do-dah day…

Oh that Faulkner Lit!!!
Oh that Popeye Puke!!!
How I love it when it stinks!!!
Oh dah-do-dah day!!!


Delta Bourbon Literature—
Doo-dah doo-dah—
Grows like mold on rotten cheese—
Oh dah-do-dah day…

Sanctuary here I come!!!
Corn cobs!!! Corn cobs!!!
Ole Miss Reba has some fun!!!
So do all the Girls!!!

Oh Magnolias!!!
Oh those Pralines too!!!
How I love that Mardi Gras!!!
All those Frenchy Boyz!!!


Light in August my oh my—
Christmas!!! Christmas!!!
How they cut his peter off—
Oh Mulatto Boy…

Same with Henry’s cute boyfriend—
Doo-dah doo-dah—
Tall dark handsome Charles Bon—
Fatal tinge of dinge…

Oh that Land of Jive!!!
Oh that Decadence!!!
Delta boyfriends oh so cute!!!
Plus the Senate too!!!


Tallahatchie Literature—
Snopes Boyz!!! Snopes Boyz!!!
Eula’s got a big Fat Ass—
Oh dah-do-dah day…

Temple Drake she fell in love—
Doo-dah doo-dah—
Alabama Red oh so cute—
Bye Bye Bad Boy Red…

Oh that Memphis booze!!!
Oh that Moonshine glow!!!
Surely worth a Nobel Prize!!!
All those Pecan Pies!!!


Way down South in Baton Rouge—
Huey!!! Oh Huey!!!
Way down South at LSU—
Kingfish Dynasties!!!

Gumbo boyz and garfish too—
Doo-dah doo-dah—
Cajuns Creoles Gators too—
That’s where I fell in Love…

Oh that Bayou Lit!!!
Oh that Swamp Boy Love!!!
Cajun Boyz can be so cruel!!!
Pouty pirogue Lips!!!


Go Down Moses was my Thing—
Doo-dah doo-dah—
How I loved that Broussard Hall—
Oh those quarterbacks…

English Major there I was—
Doo-dah doo-dah—
How I burned the midnight oil—
Tiger Jocks so fine…

Oh those Delta Blues!!!
Oh those Dixie Nights!!!
Honeysuckle busy lips!!!
Oh dah-do-dah day!!!




Those of you Movie Club cineastes who are enjoying Threepenny Opera and have had the time to view the movie with the two Criterion commentators narrating the action and theory behind the Pabst / Brecht / Weil scenes already know the significance of "Mack the Knife" and the other classic songs and how they offset the usual narrative flow with the Brechtian V-effect i.e. Brecht's epic theater method of alienating the audience enough to actually "think" within the play / film and "learn" something about the social issues of Weimar politics and power during that controversial zeitgeist....

I wanted to briefly share what we are doing with decadence in the Fiction forum... and at the same time use Brecht's V-effect to temporarily interrupt the Faulkner flow with some Brechtian humor... since so much of Faulkner is dark, moody and full of Southern decadence.

Southern decadent literature (Faulkner, Capote, Williams, etc.) has similarities with Euro-decadence during the Weimar... in terms of film, stage and lit. I like the compare / contrast method when it comes to doing comparative pomo lit...   

Threepenny Opera is a Pandora's Box with many surprises...
  :)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 26, 2007, 12:32:57 AM

Shadow of the Vampire (2000)

Hoffman Martin—I’m sure by now you’ve both seen Shadow of the Vampire with John Malkovich as F. W. Murnau the director of Nosferatu. Another German genius—but Elias Merhige is pretty good too. His version of Dracula seems Brechtian to me—the way the film is about making a film. And how the compulsive Murnau—would do anything to push Film as the ultimate Artform. Even sacrificing the cast and crew—a devil’s bargain with Schreck…


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 26, 2007, 01:49:45 AM
I haven't seen Shadow of the Vampire.  I'll have to see if I can get my hands on a copy. 

I watched the French version of TPO.  I think I prefer the German.  The French version seems noisy, sometimes distractingly so.  But even with all the noise, there is a feel of a silent movie about it.  Also, Albert Prejean, who plays Mackie, seems a bit more self-aware than Rudolf Forster. 

In the French version, we don't hear Polly speak until the wedding.  I didn't notice, but is this true in the German also?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 26, 2007, 03:08:10 AM
Like I said, you can bring a pussy to a movie, but you can't help him understand it.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 26, 2007, 03:20:05 AM
(http://www.olgabaclanova.com/picture_gallery/movies/freaks/29_roscoe_in_drag_6.jpg)


Like I said, you can bring a pussy to a movie, but you can't help him understand it.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 26, 2007, 04:39:51 AM
Polly


In the French version, we don't hear Polly speak until the wedding. 
I didn't notice, but is this true in the German also?



Polly hardly speaks at all up until the wedding scene—not in the Cuttlefish Hotel, a little on the boat during “Liebeslied.” But she gets warmed up during the wedding commenting on the bridal dinner “junk,” getting the Reverend to stay for the wedding and a comment about being hungry. Then there’s “Polly’s Song.” On the stairs as Polly says goodbye there’s a few little things said.

All of which makes her descent down the steps to assert herself to the Macheath gang by raising her voice, slapping one of the minions and taking control all the more startling. Up until then just a demure Fräulein…


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 26, 2007, 04:43:07 AM
(http://www.allthingsbeautiful.com/all_things_beautiful/images/themythofpalestinepart_1.jpg)
Otto Dix “All Things Beautiful"

The Wedding Party

The wedding party is like an Otto Dix painting…

The poor dumb child-idiot minions sitting at the table with cartoon-looks on their sad uncomprehending faces. Dressed up in suits, surrounded by stolen luxuries, elegant candelabra and lighted candles, exquisite food and wine—all of it thrown-together in an abandoned warehouse basement. Even a wedding bed…

I froze-frame the shot—just to study their faces. They were caricatures of themselves—out of Dix’s painting “All Things Beautiful.”


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 26, 2007, 05:07:39 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/72d/816/72d8169c-e931-42c4-a29a-364724d48964)

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/393/62e/39362e1f-6d31-41e2-80b6-7f2717039859)

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/7a9/751/7a9751c2-888e-47b9-b3c2-b0190cf418a5)

The Minions

Screen-capture shots of some of Macheath's minions.
They all do an excellent job of being a rather stupified
bunch of minions trying to act bourgeois but finding it
difficult...




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 26, 2007, 10:50:18 AM
"a German all time classic silent horror-movie from 1922 called Nosferatu-Eine Symphonie des Grauens (Nosferatu-a Symphony of Horror)." This is what Malkovich as Murnau is filming and why he hires Dafoe as Schreck who played Nosferatu.   

I preferred Klaus Kinski but always mistakenly view anything by Willem Dafoe.  I am sure you will realize as you read these quotes from the dialogue that this film, despite mood,proposes a send up very much in the manner of Gene Wilder directed by Mel Brooks. It is a spoof, which may be the only thing that accounts for complaints of discontinuity in shots that the director and cinematographer intentionally used to convey the happenstance and piecemeal way Murnau approached film-making.

I also watch everything Malkovich does; in particular his European productions of the Patricia Highsmith contributions: Ripley.  I should however particularly in light of what we've discussed thus far like to see his 2006 portrayal of: Klimt, directed by Raul Ruiz ( who directed Time Regained, since they are in the same genre; detailed period realizations of a Creative Artist of the first order).

Memorable quotes for
Shadow of the Vampire

F.W. Murnau: Why him, you monster? Why not the... script girl?
Max Schreck: Oh. The script girl. I'll eat her later.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F.W. Murnau: I will not allow you to destroy my picture!
Max Schreck: This is hardly your picture any longer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max Schreck: Did I kill one of your people, Murnau? I can't remember.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Murnau: They don't need to act. They need to *be*.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F.W. Murnau: If it's not in frame, it doesn't exist!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max Schreck: I would like some makeup.
F.W. Murnau: Well, you don't get any.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max Schreck: There was a time... when I... fed from golden chalices. But now... Don't look at me that way!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F.W. Murnau: Ladies and gentlemen, this is Max Schreck, who will be portraying our vampire, Count Orlock. As you no doubt have heard, Max's methods are somewhat... unconventional, but... I am sure you will come to respect his artistry in this matter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max Schreck: I feed like an old man pees - sometimes all at once, sometimes drop by drop.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max Schreck: I told you, I feed erratically, and often enormously.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Asked what he thought of the book, Dracula]
Max Schreck: It made me sad.
Albin: Why sad?
Max Schreck: Because Dracula had no servants.
Albin: I think you missed the point of the book, Count Orlock.
Max Schreck: Dracula hasn't had servants in 400 years and then a man comes to his ancestral home, and he must convince him that he... that he is like the man. He has to feed him, when he himself hasn't eaten food in centuries. Can he even remember how to buy bread? How to select cheese and wine? And then he remembers the rest of it. How to prepare a meal, how to make a bed. He remembers his first glory, his armies, his retainers, and what he is reduced to. The loneliest part of the book comes... when the man accidentally sees Dracula setting his table.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greta Schroder: Hey, who died?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max Schreck: Go to hell, Murnau!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F.W. Murnau: Why would you possibly want to be in a play when you could be in a film?
Greta Schroeder: An audience gives me life. This... thing only takes it from me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Albin: What is the most wondrous thing you ever saw?
Henrik Galeen: I once saw Greta Schroeder naked.
Albin: That beats ectoplasm!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F.W. Murnau: Go ahead! Eat the writer! That will leave you explaining how your character gets to Bremen!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F.W. Murnau: Death of centuries! Moonchaser! Blasphemer! Monkey! Vase of prehistory. Finally to Earth, and finally born.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F.W. Murnau: Albin, collect the wooden stake and return it to its rightful place; it is necessary for the final frame, to remind us of the inadequacies of our plans, our contingencies, every missed train and failed picnic, every lie to a child.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F.W. Murnau: Time will no longer be a dark spot on our lungs. They will no longer say 'you had to have been there', because the fact is, Albin, we were.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[last lines]
F.W. Murnau: I think we have it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F.W. Murnau: Our battle, our struggle, is to create art. Our weapon is the moving picture. Because we have the moving picture, our paintings will grow and recede; our poetry will be shadows that lengthen and conceal; our light will play across living faces that laugh and agonize; and our music will linger and finally overwhelm, because it will have a context as certain as the grave. We are scientists engaged in the creation of memory... but our memory will neither blur nor fade.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max Schreck: I don't think we need the writer any longer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max Schreck: Tell me how you would harm me - when even I don't know how I could harm myself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fritz Arno 'Fritzy' Wagner: Is the camera loaded?
Paul: Yes sir
Fritz Arno 'Fritzy' Wagner: Good, so am I...
                                           
                                        ***

I did view this one afternoon in about the hottest day in July, when my landlord had a little Amishman up on the roof to repair or paint something; and I realized after a moment, that I would have to turn down the sound, given some of the "language" exchanged in this film all in good humor and to convey the essential "German" characteristic that I grew up with hearing so that it caused my grandmother to always warn my uncles,"Little pitchers have big ears".   As brothers, they had no compunction about their choice of language; this relationship holds between Murnau and Schreck.

Location was Gehaansbierg and Dudelange, Luxembourg; with interiors shot at Castle Vianden,Luxembourg.

I have some aerial shots of the locale around someplace in my favorites, which they better might have used to convey the mood. There is apparently a Letzebuergesh sound version of this film; my grandfather's dialect or rather our relatives are still speaking it over there.

One last, lest I forget to mention it, Eddie Izzard is amidst the cast.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 26, 2007, 02:05:59 PM
Faulkner wrote "The Big Sleep," and is a genius, even if his prose is bourbon soaked and there are a few plot holes in TBS.  Not bad to have a top 100 film under your belt and be in the conversation of the best novelist of the 20th Century, and Nobel Laureate, all while basically trying to save the family farm.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Donotremove on October 26, 2007, 02:11:55 PM
Jbottle, these pussies you cite, which of us are you directing that to?  Which movie is it that said pussy(s) do not understand?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on October 26, 2007, 02:18:18 PM
Well, geez, one of my cats watches an awful lot of  movies, but I don't think he understands them too much.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 26, 2007, 03:17:10 PM
Murnau

Thank you Maddy for the Murnau quotes...

Another German genius like Pabst and Lang...

We can learn so much from these perceptive directors...

About the zeitgeist... and ourselves...


 :) :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 26, 2007, 03:19:05 PM
(http://www.joesherlock.com/46BiSl.gif)

The Big Sleep (1946)


Faulkner wrote "The Big Sleep"………..


Faulkner didn’t write The Big Sleep.

Raymond Chandler wrote it.

Faulkner, Leigh Brackett and Jules Furthman wrote the screenplay.

There’s a huge difference between any NOVEL and a SCREENPLAY.

Faulkner and Howard Hawks consulted Chandler about the NOVEL throughout the SCREENPLAY writing process, e.g. they even called Chandler to see who killed the young chauffeur in love with Carmen Sternwood. He ended up off a dock in the Pacific Ocean… dead and not from a broken-heart either.

Raymond Chandler just shrugged… Who cares he said…

And I’m getting to that point myself… about a lot of things...

You keep making these wild assertions about Films and Writers and Directors (want to see a List????)—without doing any Research or Reading or even Seeing the Movie. Just one-line know-it-all snarky posts...

That’s why I created the Movie Club—to Elucidate Cinema…not Obscure it the way you’re constantly doing it…

This isn’t the NYTimes anymore—your hot-dogging film crit is bourgeois and lacks substance.

For example, it’s obvious you haven’t seen nor want to see the Films we’re discussing—Pan’s Labyrinth, Pandora’s Box and Threepenny Opera. Any yet you constantly post here almost proud of yourself...

Which is your loss…not mine.

You could learn a lot about yourself and Wiemar/Nazi cinema...

If you would just swallow your pride and WATCH Threepenny Opera...

Pabst and Brecht/Weil... they're very relevant now to us...



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 26, 2007, 03:50:17 PM
Pugetoplis....The Wedding Party.....Mackie's gang has that sort of poor dumb child idiot minion quality about it in the French version, too, but here they begin to eat before Polly sings.  Somehow this makes them seem all the more childish. 

Jenny's pirate song makes more sense in the French because it is translated somewhat differently and because her prior relationship is stressed more than it was in the German.  But her whole change of heart makes less sense here because we do know the history.

This Dix reminds me of TPO, too.  But if you look at his war work, you will see an entirely different world.  Quite devastating.

(http://www.beatcanvas.com/painters/dix_metropolis.jpg)

Madupont....too funny....
Quote
I did view this one afternoon in about the hottest day in July, when my landlord had a little Amishman up on the roof to repair or paint something; and I realized after a moment, that I would have to turn down the sound, given some of the "language" exchanged in this film all in good humor and to convey the essential "German" characteristic that I grew up with hearing so that it caused my grandmother to always warn my uncles,"Little pitchers have big ears".   As brothers, they had no compunction about their choice of language; this relationship holds between Murnau and Schreck.





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 26, 2007, 07:42:19 PM
Yeah, I couldn't get into "Pan's Labyrinth," guilty, and was confused by the bug at the beginning and bored and so I ejected it to watch "Deja Vu," which didn't have as much ART GOING FOR IT.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 27, 2007, 08:58:44 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

Capt. Francesca 'Franky' Cook: “Leni Riefenstahl.
I've heard so much about you. It's a pleasure to
finally meet the competition.”


 :) :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 27, 2007, 09:37:26 AM

Well, geez, one of my cats watches an awful lot of movies,
but I don't think he understands them too much.


Harriette

Yawn, I guess he's just another dumb pussy....


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 27, 2007, 02:54:28 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)


Warming up, my dear, for Fritz Lang's M....

It's time to introduce some real Euro-decadence to this wonderful...

Group of enthusiastic klug Cineastes..........

Well, Hoffman... aren't we having fun?

The French wedding scene, yes, exquisitely decadent wasn't it?

The cute young swine... simply famished...

But then, my dear, young hoodlums can be so cute in both Berlin and Paris...

How Brecht despised the bourgeoisie (Bugerschaft)...

Or was it the petite bourgeoisie (Kleinbugertum)...

Or was there any bourgeoisie left to despise...

Reichbanknotes in wheelbarrows...

Galgenleider a la Christian Morgenstern, nicht wahr?

Ah. the Wedding Scene... the only scene Brecht laughed at...

Pabst... perhaps more radical than Brecht herself...

How many Mother Courages does it take?

Louise Brooks... the Queen of Weimar Cinema...

I salute you... I kiss your feet...

Lulu in Berlin!!!!!!!!








Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 27, 2007, 03:10:29 PM
Personally, I'm taking a break from all this vicarious film-buffing for the last day of Oktoberfest before alles kaput. Prosit.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 27, 2007, 03:21:28 PM
Quote
How Brecht despised the bourgeoisie (Bugerschaft)...

Or was it the petite bourgeoisie (Kleinbugertum)...

Or was there any bourgeoisie left to despise...


The scene where his contempt for the bourgeosie is most apparent is the first time we see Polly in her office after buying the bank.  The blank walls, her dress....soulless.

But for all his dislike of the bourgeosie, Brecht didn't seem to have any real understanding of the proletariat.  His proletariat consists of beggars trying to avoid work.....whereas Marx's writing and philosophy understood the dignity of the working class.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 27, 2007, 03:29:10 PM
Personally, I'm taking a break from all this vicarious film-buffing for the last day of Oktoberfest before alles kaput. Prosit.

Cook up a mess of sauerkraut or raise a Doppelbock....

I like to combine mine...
sauerkraut cooked with pork, onion, potato, dark beer.  Perhaps not terribly authentic, but quite tasty.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 27, 2007, 04:09:09 PM
My dear Pugetopolis...

Passport!?  Unfortunately there's nowhere to go.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 27, 2007, 04:10:04 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

Weimar Cinema Insights

Dearest Hoffman and Madupont—

Enjoy these lovely Fall days—they may be our last…

The lessons of Weimar—are quite simple.

First cabaret—then the nazi boot in the face...

Where is my passport?   :(

Puget


Puget


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 27, 2007, 04:10:52 PM
Whoa....my post came before yours.....do you think I might be psychic?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 27, 2007, 04:21:21 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

 :) :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 27, 2007, 04:44:33 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

The Lightness of Being


An enthusiastic second (or third) for Binoche (esp.) and Irons (who can suffer almost to the Liv Ullmann level) in Damage.  We left The Unbearable Lightness of Being out of Binoche's list; she was certainly outstanding in that.  Should I just forego seeing anything of hers more recent than English Patient?
 

Try Paglia’s Big Daddy………….

On the other hand, try reaching beyond social studies…

The lightness…of Being…

Heaven forbid…

Cinema…


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 27, 2007, 05:15:57 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

Cinema is Being...

 :) :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 27, 2007, 05:33:05 PM
So you don't recognize the Hungarian Revolution when you see one?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 27, 2007, 06:05:30 PM


Quote
How Brecht despised the bourgeoisie (Bugerschaft)...

Or was it the petite bourgeoisie (Kleinbugertum)...

Or was there any bourgeoisie left to despise...



The scene where his contempt for the bourgeosie is most apparent is the first time we see Polly in her office after buying the bank.  The blank walls, her dress....soulless.

But for all his dislike of the bourgeosie, Brecht didn't seem to have any real understanding of the proletariat.  His proletariat consists of beggars trying to avoid work.....whereas Marx's writing and philosophy understood the dignity of the working class.


I was under the illusion that it was Hermann Hesse who despised the burgherlicheit? You think not that Brecht was proletarian? When you make such a statement as,"His proletariat consists of...", you realize that you are talking about the proletariat of Peter Gay's, The Beggar's Opera, while  Brecht has merely adapted a work into a new format placing it in Weimar and changed the libretto for Weill by putting it into German rather than the original English.   I keep telling you Karl Marx went out for a beer after supper with Willie Dupont in Trier until he left for the British Museum where he did his research on the History of Economics before he could do any writing. Much of the philosophy, co-authored with Marx, was done with Morgan and Engels which were particularly pithy on how women as a sex are a source of capital historically ever since men lived in caves or came out of them. Which is why I hoped to point that out to you by broaching the topic via Gunter Grass who wrote on that subject by covering the history of the woman in Germany and calling it,The Flounder, but people invariably change the subject by saying they liked reading The Rat.

It's kind of a matter that you can Bugerschaft Kleinbugertum all you want but does the nix-deutsch fool anyone?

I should think as an active party member Brecht understood  the proletariat real well and an opportunist when he saw one or two as well as recognizing the constituency which would return their ballots in  '33.

So now that we've got that clarified that there  are no such words as Bugerschaft nor Kleinbugertum  with which to poet manque pretentiously...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 27, 2007, 06:45:37 PM
I think that if you read the text of the original Beggar's Opera, you will discover that Brecht made quite a few changes.  One of those changes is his treatment of the beggars and the Beggar King.  As to his communism...it seems a bit tepid.  TPO seems to display a contempt for the proletariat with its use of conmen beggars to represent them.  He could have used poor working men and women.  He never joined the East German Communist party, and he certainly seemed to enjoy the trappings of his fame....particularly his Swiss Bank Account.


http://books.google.com/books?id=lD1kDO4eRTwC&dq=john+gay+beggar%27s+opera&pg=PP1&ots=jscqXsTdeJ&sig=YQrjhLjlpELrwlC6QmFr2APa0JE&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Djohn%2Bgay%2Bbeggar%27s%2Bopera&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPP1,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=lD1kDO4eRTwC&dq=john+gay+beggar%27s+opera&pg=PP1&ots=jscqXsTdeJ&sig=YQrjhLjlpELrwlC6QmFr2APa0JE&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Djohn%2Bgay%2Bbeggar%27s%2Bopera&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPP1,M1)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 28, 2007, 02:16:07 AM
.

"I think that if you read the text of the original Beggar's Opera, you will discover that Brecht made quite a few changes.  One of those changes is his treatment of the beggars and the Beggar King.  As to his communism...it seems a bit tepid.  TPO seems to display a contempt for the proletariat with its use of conmen beggars to represent them.  He could have used poor working men and women.  He never joined the East German Communist party, and he certainly seemed to enjoy the trappings of his fame....particularly his Swiss Bank Account."

Let's start where you begin, which in the first place is that you identify too strongly with the characters that you assume are of his concern  and you are doing that in a not so nice middle-class way by accusing him of contempt for the proletariat, which you are not but, because he  uses "conmen beggars to represent them".

That was his exact intent. "The content of many of his plays dealt with fictional tellings of historical figures or events. His idea was that if one were to tell a story from a time that is contemporary to an audience, they may not be able to maintain the critical perspective he hoped to achieve. Instead, he focused on historical stories that had parallel themes to the social ills he was hoping to illuminate in his own time. He hoped that, in viewing these historical stories from a critical perspective, the contemporary issues Brecht was addressing would be illuminated to the audience....
the forerunner of contemporary postmodern theatre practice. This is particularly so because he questioned and dissolved many of the accepted practices of the theatre of his time and created a political theatre that involved the audience in understanding its meaning. " 1.

This postmodernism extends to the films of Lars Von Trier, from the modern theatrical work as basis for films by Rainer Maria Fassbinder: Doblin's,Alexanderplatz. In which Franz Bibekopf is Fassbinder. They did a complete showing this last Winter Season in Manhattan, of the 14 and 1/2 hours, possibly at the Whitney, I've forgotten; afraid I have to watch for it to make the transition through a patron to 14 and 1/2 hours of television viewing.  It's a matter, I think of what you understand about theatrical technique and theory which in his case is Verfremdungseffekt.  You may go to the theatre, particularly musical performances or concerts and when the musical performance is theatrical you have to experience that theory: Verfremdungseffekt.  But, I dare say this is entirely different than participating in the acting of the performance. Therefore, I don't believe you know what you are talking about, whereas I do know what that experience is.

You introduced this notion of his contempt by expressing that he seems tepid in his communism; whereas, he testified before the HUAAC at the end of the 1940s and would no longer be able to work in this country.  I think that I know something of that as well, in that the director for whom I worked ran into this hassling from the Feds because he had not been a Nazi. Simple as that. He came from Munich and he was not a Nazi, therefore....  It's very simplistic.

As a result of Brecht not being able to work here, the East German Communist party invited him to come to  live in East Germany where he continued to work along the same lines that he had always worked, which was apparently in agreement with their ideas as well or you wouldn't have to be particularly concerned  about his Swiss Bank Account.   Let's get real simple about the word Schadenfreude; you dislike him for being communist because with every word you write you express that fascist inclination of the middle classes who don't know why they begrudge a particular artist's work but then on the other hand insist he wasn't communist enough to make it worth your while.   I guess you have to work that out for yourself.

Eugen Berthold Friedrich Brecht doesn't need you for approval

1. wiki


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 28, 2007, 02:43:57 AM
Brecht could very well afford to tell the HUAC where to get off....he had other places to live, and plenty of money to live on....unlike others who became objects of the witch hunt.

And really, you have no earthly way of knowing anything about my socio-economic background.

I think you should watch the film (which is not the same as the theatrical production which is not the same as the Gay production).


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 28, 2007, 02:52:55 AM
And what would you know about the middle or working classes?  Your father was a doctor, your husband a psychologist, or psychiatrist. 

Did anyone in your family even know how to spell the word "union?"


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 28, 2007, 11:50:01 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)


I think you should watch the film


 :) :) :)






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 28, 2007, 01:00:10 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

Charming... as usual...


"............with which to poet manque pretentiously.............."


 :D :D :D



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 28, 2007, 01:32:50 PM
Well, the real heart of it is, I doubt she would know working class if it jumped up and bit her in the butt.  Daughters of doctors have quite a different perception of what comprises the working class than do daughters of gravediggers.


I worked seven days a week, 10, 12 hours a day waitressing to buy my education.  How did she purchase hers?  Plopping herself down on daddy's lap and reminding him it was time to pay the tuition for her lessons in Bachean Virtuosity and her little tete-a-tete's in Tuesday's dance class.....If it's good enough for Martha Graham....oh and by the way, I saw a lovely little scarf I simply must have to replace the one I gave to my drunken poet friend last Friday in the bar. 

But of course her experience makes her uniquely qualified to lecture me on my understanding of what comprised the true proletariat. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 28, 2007, 02:45:16 PM
Watched the first half of Threepenny Opera tonight, and I have to say I was a bit disappointed.  The humor seems to be lost.  The characters move as though they are still acting in a silent movie.  I think this is a production that is better staged than on the screen, although a modern adaptation might be interesting as long as Baz Luhrmann doesn't get a hold of it. 

Brecht was didactic, but in the hands of Pabst the play becomes too heavy handed, an all too obvious social critique of Western capitalism. The scenes are much too long for what is being said in them.  You need the stage to see the larger scope of the production. With a camera at the time, all you could do was hone in on the main characters.  Mackie makes for a very dashing figure and quite a contrast to Old Man Peachum, who seems to have a Faustian beard.  I saw that Krafft-Raschig makes his reappearance as a thug.  But, after an hour my wife said enough.  Will watch the second half later.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 28, 2007, 03:08:06 PM
Watched the first half of Threepenny Opera tonight, and I have to say I was a bit disappointed.  The humor seems to be lost.  The characters move as though they are still acting in a silent movie.  I think this is a production that is better staged than on the screen, although a modern adaptation might be interesting as long as Baz Luhrmann doesn't get a hold of it. 

Brecht was didactic, but in the hands of Pabst the play becomes too heavy handed, an all too obvious social critique of Western capitalism. The scenes are much too long for what is being said in them.  You need the stage to see the larger scope of the production. With a camera at the time, all you could do was hone in on the main characters.  Mackie makes for a very dashing figure and quite a contrast to Old Man Peachum, who seems to have a Faustian beard.  I saw that Krafft-Raschig makes his reappearance as a thug.  But, after an hour my wife said enough.  Will watch the second half later.

Do you think the sort of stiffness of staging was deliberate or a factor of the newness of talking pictures?  (How to produce even sound while the actors are in motion?)  In many scenes, the actors are set up to resemble maniquins.  I thought this was related to the tricks Pabst played with mirrors.  The characters and their lives became the imitation of the reflection rather than the the reflection becoming the imitation. 

As to the scenes being too long for what is being said in them, the approach was a bit different in the French language version.  Here, the music runs over from one scene to the next and there is often background noise to tie scenes together.  The French seems to run shorter, but I haven't checked the running time. 

It is possible that the scenes being too long is also related to the idea of imitation.  In the German, each scene has a definite beginning and end.  It's almost as if the viewer is looking at a photo album.  Photos, mirrors, maniquins all present a manufactured or idealized image of the way things ought to be.  The pictures we see are often at odds with what the characters are saying.  One example, the pre-wedding scene where Mackie and Polly sing rather cynically about the longevity of love.

Baz Luhrmann...don't know him.  Will have to look up some of his work. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 28, 2007, 04:06:48 PM
The Threepenny Opera—Criterion Collection (1931)

Pandora’s Box—Criterion Collection (1929)


The 2-year difference in film-sound technology may explain the difference; perhaps Pabst realized this and that’s why he wanted Louise Brooks rather than Marlene Dietrich to play Lulu. Something fresh and new… somebody like Lotte Lenya but more sexy and alluring?

Weimar silent cinema is interesting…Lang’s Metropolis compared with M. Lorre’s unforgettible “Ich kann nicht” confession…what an impression that must have made on early talkie moviegoing audiences back then…I watched it last night again…

Lang, Pabst…and then all the other German directors and film technicians and cameramen that emigrated to Hollywood…what an infusion of sophistication and classy style…


 :) :) :)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 28, 2007, 05:13:44 PM
You're "Lang, Pabst" joke has gotten kind of old now, but I can see how you would try to flower up your lack of intelligence by going for that old Pabst line, I get it, nice work.

I'm not the brightest bulb in the room but shinola I can tell from shit, what about you?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 28, 2007, 05:32:15 PM
Note to MOVIE CLUB MEMBERS:  Write a horror movie, because "Saw III," unscreend scored 30 large, so you have a 100MM feature unscreened by critics, no, do not go see it we don't care, they know it be there.  I love it.  I didn't even know there was a new one and 30 large and no stars later you got a big ast money maker.

What if you could make one for 6 and have it do 30 theatrically, I mean, that could be the only thing you ever did and walk, and like, keep talking shit and whatnot.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 28, 2007, 05:50:06 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)


"...keep talking shit and whatnot."


Charming... as usual...

 :D :D :D


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 28, 2007, 06:15:05 PM
The Threepenny Opera—Criterion Collection (1931)

Pandora’s Box—Criterion Collection (1929)


The 2-year difference in film-sound technology may explain the difference; perhaps Pabst realized this and that’s why he wanted Louise Brooks rather than Marlene Dietrich to play Lulu. Something fresh and new… somebody like Lotte Lenya but more sexy and alluring?

Weimar silent cinema is interesting…Lang’s Metropolis compared with M. Lorre’s unforgettible “Ich kann nicht” confession…what an impression that must have made on early talkie moviegoing audiences back then…I watched it last night again…

Lang, Pabst…and then all the other German directors and film technicians and cameramen that emigrated to Hollywood…what an infusion of sophistication and classy style…


 :) :) :)




Also relating to a sort of lack of movement in early film, I don't know enough about how films were made to know for sure, but it seems that directors of early films saw them pretty much as stage experiences transferred to film.  There is a feeling of these films being shot in boxes rather than the openness you see in movies today.  Perhaps the sets were smaller.  And the cameras would have been quite a bit larger back then and thus less portable. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 29, 2007, 01:39:30 AM
Hoffman, Luhrmann was the Aussie director who did Moulin Rouge, Romeo + Juliet and La Boheme,

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0525303/

I understand that the movie was a major milestone in its day, but it seemed to me that 3-Penny Opera was staged pretty much the same way as the opera, with Pabst forgetting that the actors were singing their parts on stage, so one isn't expecting action.  But, as a movie, there has to be action to propel it and as such Pabst's version was sorely lacking.  Interesting that in order to gain respectability, early silent films used opera singers.  Here is one book that explores the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Opera-Singer-Silent-Film/dp/0786420650

As far as technical capabilities, D.W. Griffith was the master.  One look at Birth of a Nation, and one is awestruck by the possibilities of the medium.

(http://www.annachen.co.uk/images/Gish-BirthNation.jpg)

I felt the same way watching Alexander Nevsky, although it came along much later.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 29, 2007, 01:57:30 AM
Geraldine Farrar was one of the more famous opera divas to appear in silent movies,

(http://silentladies.com/Farrar/Farrar30.jpg)

http://www.stanford.edu/~gdegroat/farrar.htm


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 12:20:31 PM
Dzimas, that opera film book looks good....would be perfect if it came with a cd.  But I'd forgotten about Griffith.  BOAN comes fifteen years before TPO. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 12:27:40 PM
At first, the idea of using opera divas in silents has a certain irony.  But many of these stars had a real presence that would have shown through on film. 

This sentence on Farrar from your link was amusing:  "When informed that her films were no longer making money, she obligingly tore up her contract and returned to the opera stage."  They sure don't make divas like they used to.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 29, 2007, 01:01:03 PM
Oh, yes, they do. Carrying on in Non-fiction.

"Did anyone in your family even know how to spell the word "union?"  Yes, take a leap down to my name and you'll soon see that I wrote on the origins of the need for unions in a post to desdemona back in August. Skip the in-between stuff unless you are in doubt about unionization. It may be more "literary" an argument than the book recommendation made by nytempsperdu at post #42 on Aug.9th. but at least I eschew politically-ideologically driven scholarship because more simply I studied British History when taking a course of study in British Literature so I would not get confused about the motivating factors that caused various writers to write as they did about what they chose to write. Through no fault whatsoever nytempsperdu has found an interesting speculation of academic publication that was meant to prove Intelligent Design (I.D. Have you got one?)


A trade union or labour union is an organization of workers.
The union has the authority to determine who may be a member of the union and who may not.
These organizations may be comprised of individual workers, professionals, past workers, or the unemployed. The most common, but by no means only, purpose of these organizations is "maintaining or improving the conditions of their employment.

The traces of trade unions existence could be traced from eighteenth century,that to in the Western society (with most changes occurring earliest in Britain) witnessed a transformation from an agrarian culture with craft-based production to a culture shaped by the first industrial revolution. Some of the changes brought on by this new order, such as new work methods and downward pressure on traditional wage structures,...."

I think that I may have noted within my post(not sure, actually),without delving into the profit motive of why the landed gentry chose to become another industrial magnate by participating in what became known as the Industrial Revolution, that where trade unionism picked up politically was when Women's Suffrage in Britain made an alliance pre-WW1 with the Labour Party.




Lhoffman
Hero Member

Posts: 986


  Re: Movie Club
« Reply #620 on: October 28, 2007, 02:52:55 AM » Quote 




And what would you know about the middle or working classes?  Your father was a doctor, your husband a psychologist, or psychiatrist. 

Did anyone in your family even know how to spell the word "union?"
Quote




madupont
 Re: Nonfiction
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2007, 04:22:34 PM »
 
 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on October 29, 2007, 01:09:18 PM
(http://www.catfacts.org/tabby-cat-facts.jpg)

I've just heard they are doing a remake of the classic The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3.  I guess it's just old enough and forgotten enough that the producers think they can get away with it.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 29, 2007, 01:27:47 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)


Oh, yes, they do. Carrying on in Non-fiction.


Ah, the Princeton Stalker strikes again!!!!

I know. Let's do a "union" movie...

How about Marlon Brando and On the Waterfront????

I guess Mad has decided that Threepenny Opera is over now...

Oh well, goodbye Pabst... goodbye Weimar...

Goodbye Movie Club...








Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 29, 2007, 01:36:03 PM
Barton, what is the meaning of that strange post over in Movies which seems to be addressed to becky, barton, desdemona?

I recognized why it was there right away as it said something about three avatars, signed pugetopolis.  Do you suppose that he fell out of bed this morning and landed on his head, or did he just miss that little introduction in Meander one day where our friend from Vancouver greeted you enthusiastically as "Becky! I'm so glad to see you..."

Or, some similar sociable baddinage.

And you replied, "I'm not pbarton. I was Bartonfink....

I thought it was such a funny exchange but it did clarify some other things as to whom you could trust for telling you the truth in having a discussion by posting in the forums per se.  

In no time at all, I discovered somebody with a common interest would just like that turn on a dime and make quite apparent where their self-interest required them to toe the line -- I gather because they were being black-mailed in some way by somebody who would not let go of them.

Since then, it has been mostly name-calling and insults in a variety of forums which someone once referred to as a take-over or power-ploy; for which I doubt that I will contribute any more  reference-material gratis.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 29, 2007, 01:38:46 PM
Quote]
(http://www.catfacts.org/tabby-cat-facts.jpg)

I've just heard they are doing a remake of the classic The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3.  I guess it's just old enough and forgotten enough that the producers think they can get away with it.




Sigh, no Walter Matthau though.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 01:45:24 PM
Quote
.....for which I doubt that I will contribute any more  reference-material gratis.


LOL....it's called WIKIPEDIA!!!  And this gathering of reference material requires no special skill whatsoever.  Anyone with access to the internet can just enter the topic they are looking for and viola...endless information.....Or did you think your internet service gave you special access than none of the rest of us were priviledged to enjoy?  I hope you haven't had to pay for some of the stuff you cut and paste.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 29, 2007, 02:23:00 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

Dear Mad and Desdemona,

You ladies just don't seem to get the point do you?

This Movie Club forum is not the Meandering forum...

Nor is it the Hen-Pecking forum or the Crummy Creative Writing forum...

We're going to continue with Weimar cinema regardless of whether you hate me or not.

If you don't like this Movie Club forum, then by all means go somewhere else.

And please, ladies, why torture yourself with my postings?

Simply put me on Ignore and get on with your busy-bee tacky little lives...

Neither of you have taken the time to watch Threepenny Opera or any of the other movies...

And yet you hang around here as if you're film critics for The New York Times...

The same with Jbottle and all the other people who've fought this forum tooth and nail...

The Movie Club forum will grow and survive... despite your jealousy and kvetching and hatred...

Elba has plenty of forums for all of us... why not give the Movie Club a chance?

In the meantime, both you ladies are now in Ignore...

This Movie Club will continue without you...




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 02:29:34 PM
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/6/64/250px-Alice-queen-hearts.jpg)

"Off with her head...."

and now I find myself wondering about the etiquette of putting someone on ignore.  Is it a bigger dis to put them on ignore without saying anything, or to tell them that you have put them on ignore....

Perhaps ignore ought to be like "in a relationship" over on Facebook where both parties have to agree to that status.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 29, 2007, 02:51:31 PM
I can only speak for myself, Hoffman...

The Ignore button is your friend... it's not a matter of etiquette or hurting someone's feelings...

It's a matter of staying sane in an insane world...

I'm not wasting my time arguing with Mad, Becky or JBottle anymore...

Nor with the exiled homophobes like Detective_Winslow and his ilk...

Gang mentalities have never appealed to me... here in Elba or The New York Times...

Being a writer, Hoffman... it's like I'm used to being alone...

Like William Faulkner and a long line of outsiders like him...

I don't need consensus or a baboon-troup mentality to back me up...

I think on my own two feet... here and now...

It's a struggle... and a test to be alone...

Just ask Louise Brooks...


 :) :) :)










Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 04:16:20 PM
Not so much about hurting one's feelings, as in the logistics of the thing.  Suppose you put them on ingore and they don't know it and so keep quoting (or Misquoting) your posts. 

But, back to movies (off-topic to TPO, sorry)....Finally got to watch Dracula with the Glass soundtrack.  I'd tried many times with the DVD/CD combination, but couldn't get it quite lined up.  I found a copy of the 75th anniversary edition which puts them together.  I don't know which track I prefer.  The original gives the whole thing a rather romantic feeling, and relates to the whole mythology of Dracula.  The Glass makes it seem more about insanity. 

One scene I like in both is at the beginning when Renfield is in the Hungarian village.  There is no translation of what the villagers are saying and the effect is that the viewer is as clueless about Renfield's plight as he is. 

The other edition of the movie on my set is a Spanish edition.  Probabably watch that tomorrow night.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 29, 2007, 04:44:16 PM
Just for the fun of it, Hoffman, since you're a pianist, try a different Glass soundtrack... like the 5th track of Glass' Organ Works...played by Donald Joyce..."Satyagraha" (Atalyst) arranged by Riesman. It will give you a more melancholic heroic view of Dracula the Prince Darkness... closer perhaps to the real Bela and Browning... a more tragic Transylvanian mood... the one I'm into now...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 29, 2007, 04:59:19 PM

Brecht could very well afford to tell the HUAC where to get off....he had other places to live, and plenty of money to live on....unlike others who became objects of the witch hunt.

And really, you have no earthly way of knowing anything about my socio-economic background.

I think you should watch the film (which is not the same as the theatrical production which is not the same as the Gay production).


Talking with you about Three Penny Opera either by Brecht/Weill or Pabst's version or even his Lulu contributions much less mine is not the same as getting an answer for how Gay does a Gay production around here have to be?

You simply are unable to discuss the aesthetics nor the realpolitik; nor is your cohort either for that matter.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 29, 2007, 05:13:23 PM
Quote
How Brecht despised the bourgeoisie (Bugerschaft)...

Or was it the petite bourgeoisie (Kleinbugertum)...

Or was there any bourgeoisie left to despise...


The scene where his contempt for the bourgeosie is most apparent is the first time we see Polly in her office after buying the bank.  The blank walls, her dress....soulless.

But for all his dislike of the bourgeosie, Brecht didn't seem to have any real understanding of the proletariat.  His proletariat consists of beggars trying to avoid work....].whereas Marx's writing and philosophy understood the dignity of the working class.


The irony is  unconscious, I know, in your last line, but having knocked yourself out to prove that I am less working-class than you for whatever strange reason which begins to sound like irresolute jealousy as time goes by, you have given a dubious demonstration of the dignity of the working class which you claim Marx understood. I don't recall that he said any such thing but go ahead take credit for that statement.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 29, 2007, 05:17:24 PM
Oh, and I forgot this one,re:#601, where you manage to defame Brecht while misrepresenting two with one stone's throw. How long are you going to pull that as your forte?

 "Brecht didn't seem to have any real understanding of the proletariat.  His proletariat consists of beggars trying to avoid work.....whereas Marx's writing and philosophy understood the dignity of the working class."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 05:56:47 PM
Desdemona....I was quite kind to Madupont, commented on her posts about the movie....even though it was clear she hadn't watched it.   (That she he still hasn't seen it can be inferred from her  last post commenting on Brecht's portrayal of the proletariat as beggars avoiding work.)  Out of the blue she began making rude remarks, attributing comments to me that I hadn't made.  Her last few posts are an example...she has something there as a quotation from me that she herself wrote.  The other day she posted something I had supposedly said about a movie I've never even seen.  I posted her a link to the primary source for ThreePenny Opera...a play by John Gay, and she displays her "wit" by making a pun on the playwright's name.  How very entertaining.


But anyway, if you want to defend her, knock yourself out.  As to Pugetopolis, I like him.  He's funny and intelligent, I admire his work, and what you see is what you get.





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 29, 2007, 06:00:58 PM
lhoffman?

So now, you compare yourself with the daughter of a grave-digger? This is beginning to sound like Polly and Jenny have at.

"Daughters of doctors have quite a different perception of what comprises the working class than do daughters of gravediggers."

My father was a working class doctor during the Depression.

"I worked seven days a week, 10, 12 hours a day waitressing to buy my education.  How did she purchase hers?"

I paid for my own education. My father did not believe in education for women since they marry and have children and therefore,etc.,etc.,etc.

Everyone knows what I did for a living: I was an artists' model and it was when I went to New York and worked in most of the art schools(as well as the dang photographer(Avedon) mentioned by his highness the pugetoplian that I began writing jazz poetry of the poetry and jazz style used for performance; I then published it in the  underground press on a regular basis. Oh, yes, by the way, maybe I just waitressed in some more interesting venues that causes all this angst on your part; at least, it seems you are creeped out. I  had a coffee house in Greenwich Village to which I was directed , Allmen Bros., which usually means starting work around sun-down at supper-time and you go until well after bar- closing which is late in New York, so you have people dropping in well after bar-closing because they are still walking around the Village,and then you eventually get to close but you still have tables to scrape of candle wax from those drippy picturesque bottles of the Beat era turning into something else.  It occurs to me that your presentation is a one-sided rant.

Not hearing much music with these hours, plus when you get home at dawn, it takes hours to fall asleep so you never get enough sleep before  you have to be back to work, and I'm living in a different location where more time is spent writing with other writers. I took a recess from all that with the return ticket I'd put aside although I remember also having to sell a really great bell from Austerlitz(it was however small) when they melted down the cannon; and didn't come back to New York until several years later to fly the two children of a friend out to a vaguely lower east side location when she had settled in with a guy named Gene Harris who played piano.

Why don't you just get your miserable act together and settle down instead of feeling sorry for yourself.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 29, 2007, 06:14:18 PM

Desdemona....I was quite kind to Madupont, commented on her posts about the movie....even though it was clear she hadn't watched it.   (That she he still hasn't seen it can be inferred from her  last post commenting on Brecht's portrayal of the proletariat as beggars avoiding work.)*.
 
Quote





Excuse me, that was your line, Babe.  I know the show and never claimed to have seen the film or care to see it, and I did not use your lines to describe Brecht .The only film in which I've seen Lenya was in The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone, starring Vivien Leigh opposite Warren Beaty. It seems to be you are attributing comments randomly to me, and about Brecht, and Marx, et al.





"Out of the blue she began making rude remarks, attributing comments to me that I hadn't made.  Her last few posts are an example...she has something there as a quotation from me that she herself wrote.  The other day she posted something I had supposedly said about a movie I've never even seen.  I posted her a link to the primary source for ThreePenny Opera...a play by John Gay, and she displays her "wit" by making a pun on the playwright's name.  How very entertaining."]



You apparently think that I don't know where the play comes from?  Okay, so you are a hypocrite when you have to wiggle out of this routine you are doing.




"But anyway, if you want to defend her, knock yourself out.  As to Pugetopolis, I like him.  He's funny and intelligent, I admire his work, and what you see is what you get."]


He's neither funny nor intelligent but why are you bothering to tell des that,she already knows; especially since she is more intelligent than the two of you put together. 

Your pretense of a mutual admiration society with me is insane because you present yourself as having done me the favor of telling me of John Gay's,The Beggars Opera, although I studied English literature, while you neglect to mention any of the material that I pointed out to you. Three strikes and you are out, count 'em. No more info from me on any topic. You go it alone, and believe what's his face if you want to.





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 06:19:03 PM
Quote
No more info from me on any topic.

No great loss...I can navigate WIKIPEDIA all by myself.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: kidcarter8 on October 29, 2007, 06:23:48 PM
LOL


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 29, 2007, 06:42:16 PM
I'm pulling out my material because of your claims of wikipedia reliance;I have had it with you.  

I put up with this once with your ding bat theories on gnosticism copied from a religious page by you after which you accuse me of making up the author Elaine Pagel, although today it seems okay to get all gnarly about my studying at Graham after I told you she did albeit we were there at different periods of time before either of us lived in Princeton. I told you then, if I present material that is accessible to everyone, I say so. You have yet to present anything in this film discussion that came from your own experience and that's a fact.  I am pulling  out  my material from "your forum or any of your claims to your forums" and then your claims can just sit there for future readers to call your bluff.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: harrie on October 29, 2007, 06:46:07 PM
So does the full moon have anything to do with this?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 29, 2007, 06:55:30 PM
Guess so, harrie.   :-X


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 07:01:40 PM
Ah yes, my dingbat theories related to Gnosticism being that it is difficult to repopulate a religion when the participants frown on creating new life and have sexual practices that are related to that belief.  Perhaps you ought to look it up the next time you're over at WIKIPEDIA.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 29, 2007, 07:03:30 PM
But...but..

I just have to say this class discussion is getting more and more interesting.  Now everyone's bragging about how hard they came up.  


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 29, 2007, 07:04:35 PM
Laurie - that Wikipedia remark - well, it's just been done to death today.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 07:05:20 PM
LOL....yes, I suppose you are right about that.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 07:06:13 PM
And the whole class discussion could be quite a bit more interesting....anyone here (gasp) Middle Class?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 29, 2007, 07:13:21 PM
Not guilty.  I'm upper middle class.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 29, 2007, 07:16:00 PM
That's why I'm so foul-mouthed!

Seriously, though, how do you know what you are?  I guess I'm middle class, coming from a middle class family that eventually crossed the line to upper middle class.  My grandparents were working class, though.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 07:26:33 PM
It is interesting....how do you know what you are.  If you are raised working class and raise your economic status to upper class, are you upper class or does a part of you want to hold onto those roots.  It's far easier to let go of grandparents than to let go of parents.  Then there's the assumption that children will do better economically than did their parents. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 29, 2007, 07:36:15 PM
Des.

Would you believe, lhoffman begins with the premise that Brecht bowlerized the proletariat by turning them into Gay's, The Beggar's Opera,(beggars) or, how uncommunist of him?

This is very similar to the gnostics bash. That the somehow total lack of sex as she reads it out of a page that proved it to her, means that any of the people defended by Count Raymond of Toulouse,Duke of Albi, could not have  effected any influence on the development of the Huguenots across the border from Spanish Navarre into France by the time of Henri IV, the St. Bartholamus Massacre under Catharine of Medici, no Protestant
Reformation,etc.  This gives me a pain.  Any family with 500 years of history is
bound to have seen a few class-acts, that shift you from one class to another, upside down and sideways.  At least I occasionally make the acquaintance of people and become friends with people who have had the same background.
Not often; but that is even publicly debated in a forum from her point of
view.  It isn't enough for her to say she doubts that; she has to debate it.  I give up. Crunch.

What does this have to do with the topic underway in Movie Club? which is apparently not for rent but owned outright by-- is it one or a couple of people for the moment?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 08:34:41 PM
Looking at John Gay's work, Jenny's betrayal and change of heart makes a bit more sense.  In the movie, Brecht has created Jenny Diver to be a combination of Jenny Diver and Lucy Lockit.  In Gay, Jenny is listed in the cast as a "woman of the street."  Gay has her help in the arrest of Mackie by having her take his pistol from him when the officers come to take him away.  Lucy has had a relationship with Mackie and wants to marry him because she is pregnant.  To this end, she helps him to escape from prison. 

The shortcoming in the film version is that Lucy doesn't exist and we are never given to understand why Jenny might decide to help Mackie after she has betrayed him.

As to the whole parade of beggars marching through the streets to disrupt the queen's coronation...not in Gay.  His "beggars" are working men...even if their job is only picking pockets.




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 29, 2007, 09:22:47 PM
The Jenny story (and the Pirate Song) does make sense if you look at Gay's later play, "Polly."  Here's a very brief description of the play in the Yale Bulletin dated last week.

http://www.yale.edu/opa/v36.n8/story13.html (http://www.yale.edu/opa/v36.n8/story13.html)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 30, 2007, 12:15:47 AM
Is MacHeath called Mackie in the movies being discussed? 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 30, 2007, 12:35:13 AM
Yes, MacHeath, Mackie.  I just think of him as Mackie because the song keeps running through my head.  Have you seen the movie version?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 30, 2007, 05:02:21 AM
As much as I enjoy a good fight, I think I will stay out of this one.  I will only say that I found Hoffman's comments regarding Gay's Beggar's Opera appropriate since Brecht drew directly from the opera, right down to the names, to write his own didactic play.  Of course, Brecht's play became more famous, but here is a copy of the original play, along with notes by Risa S. Bear,

http://www.uoregon.edu/~rbear/beggar.html


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 30, 2007, 05:15:03 AM
The Beggar's Opera is a comic farce, poking accurate fun at the prevailing fashion in Italian opera as well as the social and political climate of the age. It established a new genre, the "ballad opera," of which it remains the only really notable example, though its popularity led to the work Sheridan and eventually Gilbert and Sullivan. Gay cuts the standard five acts to three, and tightly controls the dialogue and plot so that there are delightful surprises in each of the forty-five fast-paced scenes.

Too bad Pabst didn't draw more on this humor, but I guess it was the message he was after.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 30, 2007, 06:33:24 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

Threepenny Opera—Some Questions

As much as I enjoy a good fight, I think I will stay out of this one. 

I think I’ll stay out of it too…I’m a lover not a fighter dontchaknow?

But may I ask this question—is Weimar cinema relevant today in terms of class consciousness?

IMHO Weimar cinema is relevant to the political and social conditions in America today… How can Pandora’s Box, Threepenny Opera and Metropolis be otherwise? Here we have an important European nation undergoing apocalyptic economic, social and artistic changes. Just as radical as America went thru during the Great Depression. Just as radical as we’re going thru today—with the war, globalization and the destruction of unions and the American middle-class.

Pabst, Brecht, Lang—these directors as well as the rest of German intelligentsia were asking the same questions and wondering where their country was going? Rather than blindly repeating history—I look to Weimar writers, directors and artists for answers to the questions posed to us today. Not just in the “political forums” here in Elba—but the Fiction, Nonfiction and Cinema forums as well…

What is class-consciousness? Is Weimar class-consciousness the same as our class-consciousness? Is our middle-class being destroyed like the German middle-class was destroyed back then? Is globalization and out-sourcing the end of our unions and middle-class dreams? Has this recycling of the middle-class already taken place in Latin America?

And the final question: How relevant is cinema to social change?






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 30, 2007, 08:25:15 AM
Quote
How relevant is cinema to social change?


Obviously cinema does have an affect on people.  Look at the nerve Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 911 struck among viewers, but to actually change the course of national policy, unlikely.  All though, The Inconvinient Truth has helped popularize the issue of Global Warning and has put added pressure on national governments to curb their carbon emissions. Moore and the kids of Columbine struck a small victory in getting K-Mart to pull small-arms amunition off the shelves, but Fahrenheit 911 wasn't so successful in getting voters to reconsider Bush.  I guess because it was so obvious, given the timing of the release.

(http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/networkmadprophet16.JPG)

As far as drama, I can't see any direct effect it has on people in regard to social change, but certain movies do acquire weight over time.  I think Network is a case in point, given the current state of media journalism.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 30, 2007, 12:26:59 PM
As Hollywood becomes more politicized, we  see more movies with an obvious angle toward social and political reform.  Perhaps the intent was there before, but it was quite a bit more subtle.  I'm remembering back to Michael Moore's first film, Roger and Me, was looked on as sort of an oddity.  Now people take Moore quite seriously.

The movies today seem less subtle, but other than classic subjects (Ben Hur, Sparticus, Cleopatra) has film production always been tied to current issues?  If you want to sell tickets, you have to speak to the people.  Address their concerns with reassurance, terror or cynicism.

 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 30, 2007, 12:28:51 PM
Dzimas....have you come across the text of Polly anywhere?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 30, 2007, 12:32:40 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

Metropolis / Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow

What would Fritz Lang and Leni Riefenstahl do with Cinema today?   

The reason I ask this question is that it constantly recurred to me as I was watching Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (2004)—I kept noticing enticing references to Lang’s Metropolis and Riefenstahl’s Triumph of the Will…

At first I thought it was just my imagination—but then it gradually dawned on me that Kerry Conran and Jude Law and others involved with the film were making clever asides and insider-jokes to other sci-fi dystopian films and actors from the past—as well as to Weimar and German cinema.

Many modern horror films have done the same thing—such as a TV in the living room with The Thing or War of the Worlds playing on the screen in the background while the actual movie is going on. It’s a kind of tribute or filmic footnote within a Film to the filmic heritage within which Hollywood operates—a film within a film…

Later I was able to see how the imdb site brings this out nicely—the many nuances and filmic / literary / acting references in this movie is somewhat breathtaking. The time and energy that went into making these intertextual references is very interesting to me. Writers like Pynchon in Gravity’s Rainbow does it—the internet footnote page we studied during our Gravity’s Rainbow NYTimes Readers Group Discussion is along those same lines…

And so, if I may, I’d like to share with you some of these interesting similarities between Metropolis and Sky Captain--as well as other dystopian views toward the future. With the idea in mind—that cinema is increasingly relevant to utopian / dystopian thought:

Much of the production design was inspired by artists from the 1930s, such as Hugh Ferriss, Raymond Loewy, and Norman Bel Geddes. Renderings of New York City by Ferriss were models for the art deco New York City seen in the film, and the Flying Fortress was designed after drawings of ocean liners imagined by Bel Geddes (note the ship-like qualities of the Fortress in the film). Many other objects and settings used the stream-line designs of Loewy's works.

"Dr. Totenkopf", the name of the mysterious scientist, is the German word for "death's head / skull.”

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/809/38c/80938c2c-a21d-41b2-b42f-8679afae15ca)

The villain, Dr. Totenkopf, is played by Sir Laurence Olivier, who died in 1989. Kerry Conran achieved this by using CGI-manipulated archive footage of Olivier. After Giovanni Ribisi's character unplugs the holographic image of Dr. Totenkopf, Jude Law's character asks him, "Is it safe?" This is a reference to Olivier's famous line in Marathon Man (1976).

The use of Laurence Olivier's image was Jude Law's idea. Law said he had always wanted to work alongside the actor, so Kerry Conran "granted" his wish.

The "Mysterious Woman" (Ling Bai) is a reference to the robot character in Fritz Lang's Metropolis (1927).

In the movie when they show all of the headlines from newspapers around the globe, you can see Godzilla's outline on the Tokyo newspaper. In one of the newspaper shots you can see an "Iron Eagle", which defines the Nazi regime to be in power in Germany, although there is no sign of a preparation for war.


(http://filmyear.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/26/triumph.jpg)

The flying robots are inspired by Max Fleischer's Superman cartoon _Mechanical Monsters (1941).

(http://www.hollywood-elsewhere.com/images/column/0917/skycaptainrobots.gif)

The sound for the beams that the robots use to extract the generators imitates the noise emitted by the death beam in The War of the Worlds (1953).

When Polly is on the phone to her editor, reporting the advance of the giant robots, her line is "They're crossing Sixth Avenue... Fifth Avenue... they're a hundred yards away...". This is a direct lift from Ray Collins's lines in Orson Welles's "The War of the Worlds" broadcast of 1938 as Collins plays a reporter on the roof of "the Broadcast Building" reporting the advance of the Martian tripods.

The number on Dr. Walter Jennings' door is "1138", a reference to George Lucas's THX 1138 (1971).

When Joe and Polly land on the air carrier, they are directed to pad 327. In Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980), the Millennium Falcon landed on platform 327 in Cloud City.

During the first attack on New York City by the robots, around the 00:14:19 mark, the Empire State Building can vaguely be seen in the background of one of the shots. A closer look reveals a familiar figure from King Kong (1933) climbing on its spire.

During the international newspaper montage after the robots attack New York, the Tokyo paper shows a photo of Godzilla attacking the city.

When Sky Captain is approaching the floating airplane carriers, the intercom tells him to land on Platform 3-2-7. This is a reference to Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back, where the heroes land on platform 3-2-7 of the Cloud City in a similar scene.

The first Chronicle newspaper shown in the film contains several actual articles from The New York Times, found in 7 October issues from various years in the late 1930s.

(http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/041104/111916__sky_l.jpg)

In preparation for her role, Angelina Jolie met with and interviewed dozens of British WWII veterans and pilots in order to adapt the proper mannerisms of her character. She also tweaked the script by adding bits of slang that were used during the era.

The logo for the Flying Legion is a winged lion with a banner reading "Ille Caelum Fremitus", which is Latin for "Yon roaring of the skies". The Latin form "caelum" is an unusual, poetic contraction of "caelorum".

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/417/b57/417b575c-1e40-471b-8534-119f31ccca74)

The film originally started out as a six-minute reel put together by Kerry Conran of CGI robots trampling through New York City, The World of Tomorrow (2005) (V). Producer Jon Avnet came across the reel and was deeply impressed, so he approached Conran with the idea of turning it into a full-length production.

The scene in which a zeppelin moors at the Empire State Building is in partial homage to King Kong (1933), in which mooring lines can be seen on the building in the final scene. The Empire State Building's spire was actually designed to dock airships. However, this proved to be impossible, as the dangerous updrafts from New York City's canyon-like streets would have torn the airships from their moorings and sent them crashing to the streets below.

(http://thecia.com.au/reviews/s/images/sky-captain-and-the-world-of-tomorrow-2.jpg)

Kerry Conran never went to New York City while making this film, and had never previously been there. He digitally recreated the entire city by referring to old photographs, some of which are even inserted into the digital environments as backdrops. Originally, the plan was to have every New York City backdrop be a colorized photograph, and that idea remained in effect until mid-production, until it was decided that 3D renderings of the city would allow the camera more of an opportunity to move around.

The "World of Tomorrow" portion of the title is a reference to the 1939-40 New York World's Fair, which was named "The World of Tomorrow".

The design of the "ark" spaceship at the end is taken from When Worlds Collide (1951) and Destination Moon (1950).

The scene inside the spaceship "ark" as Joe and Polly walk across the walkway over the vast depth of the lower spaceship, and the lower sections start slamming shut beneath them is a reference to the huge Krell machinery in Forbidden Planet (1956).

During the first robot scene, a movie theater is seen called the Densmore Theater. This is named after Densmore Street in Van Nuys, California, which is where the World of Tomorrow post-production studio was located.

In addition to the hologram towards the end of the film, the old photographs of Totenkopf are actually of Laurence Olivier. They are modified to add the Unit Eleven logo, as well as to replace Vivien Leigh with Ling Bai.

While the project was still in early development, Kerry Conran originally wanted to produce it as if it were a lost serial from the 1930s, with the film featuring unknown actors, shot in black and white, and divided into chapters each ending with a cliffhanger. All of these ideas were subsequently abandoned in an attempt to gain bigger box office appeal.






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 30, 2007, 12:41:16 PM
Hoffman, I haven't come across Polly. 

I don't know if movies today are any less subtle, but there does seem to be a new political awareness in Hollywood, atleast in the way actors are giving their time and money to a variety of causes.  However, they seem to stick to formula movies so that they can command their $20 million + cuts. 

I have more respect for directors that stick to their visions like John Sayles and actors that pick their roles carefully, like John Malkovich.  Especially when Malkovich has the guts to do a movie like Being John Malkovich.

(http://www.andreas-rauscher.de/images/beingjohnmalkovich.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 30, 2007, 12:43:11 PM
It seems I will have to watch Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 30, 2007, 01:00:10 PM
Seems like Malkovich has done everything.  He surrounds himself with good people, too.  Look at Being John Malkovich....Spike Jones, Charlie Kaufman..

The only thing I remember about Sky Captain is that everything was digitalized.  Sounds interesting to take a look in view of a comparison to German cinema. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 30, 2007, 01:38:15 PM
Sounds interesting to take a look in view of a comparison to German cinema. 

I was just going to suggest that...  :)

Perhaps our next movie could be Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (2004)?

I very much enjoyed watching John Malkovich as Murnau in Shadow of the Vampire (2000)—the whole concept of updating the Nosferatu / Dracula myth along the lines of re-making the German all time classic silent horror-movie from 1922 called Nosferatu-Eine Symphonie des Grauens (Nosferatu-a Symphony of Horror)…

It's like Sky Captain in many ways... revisiting the past and projecting into the future...

In Shadow of the Vampire, as the film crew and actors make their way by train to Transylvania, there’s this over-voice by F. W. Murnau / Malkovich making this rather amazing ode to Film:

“Our battle, our struggle, is to create art. Our weapon is the moving picture. Because we have the moving picture, our paintings will grow and recede; our poetry will be shadows that lengthen and conceal; our light will play across living faces that laugh and agonize; and our music will linger and finally overwhelm, because it will have a context as certain as the grave. We are scientists engaged in the creation of memory... but our memory will neither blur nor fade.”

May I wish everyone a very happy Halloween.  :) :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 30, 2007, 04:01:29 PM
re:http://www.uoregon.edu/~rbear/beggar.html

I still remember a stage production( name unknown) seen when I was away at school and nearly 16 years of age.  It was set in England and about highwaymen. What I hadn't expected was the culmination or hanging of the highwaymen. It gave me lifetime detestation of hanging as capital punishment, whether as shown in the drawn out scenes from,In Cold Blood, or the cell-phone filmed execution of Saddam  Hussein.

In so far as the link above clarifies that Gay's writing deals with beggars and thieves, I really can't see how the adaptation to a modern situation as prevailed in Weimar (which we already know from the information which we all looked at in regard to Wedekind's,Lulu, adapted by film-maker Pabst, and how Louise Brooks investigated what was happening at night observing "girlkultur" [strange word that, interpretation?], three years prior to the election of Hitler, in which the librettist, Brecht, continues with the identification of the principals as they were in John Gay's production, could unwittingly be criticised as demeaning to the characters or a distinction made as to what defines proletariat.

It is a word of Latin derivation and (OED) defines it by 1 a.ROMAN HISTORY   The lowest class of citizens.
b.The lowest class of any community,especially when regarded as uncultured. 2 Wage earners collectively,esp. those without capital and relying on daily labour for subsistence; the working classes.

(as smaller 2 placed immediately below the previous definition goes on to distinguish) dictatorship of the proletariat in Marxist theory, the ideal of proletarian supremacy following the overthrow of capitalism and preceding the classless state.

Thus, rather than the theoretical, Brecht adapts from Gay, in accord with the first definition, which did indeed prevail in Weimar*. If he had underlined the theoretical, which was not in prevalence anymore than it is today, he would surely have been hung by the NSDAP upon their election to the Reichschancellory. We know he emigrated before that could be effected. We also know that this did happen to those who had spoken out against the regime who were incarcerated and hung. There is certainly a lot of pretense that Riefensthal had been one of those somehow entirely unaware that this was so, despite her direct unimpeded contact with the man who okayed her budget.(incidentally, it is not true that those Eagles went up without intent of war. Her shooting at Nuremberg,1934, and at Berlin,1936, follow the election of 1933. The request for funding of munitions, which Hitler had promised "corporate industrialists", was arranged in the US before 1930 or approximately about the time the Weimar production of Three Penny Opera took place at the end of the Twenties, by the Crash(?) so one can see some motivation for the businessmen of the Anglo-American community to make war profits by getting the loans approved to Adolph Hitler).

Weimar*   Culture and Inflation in Weimar Germany, Bernd Widdig, www.ucpress,edu  Berkeley California 94720

I may have suggested this book previously to Dzimas. Inflation accounts for all the particularized Culture of Weimar, which is what is so interesting about its recurrence today.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 30, 2007, 04:14:58 PM

Is MacHeath called Mackie in the movies being discussed? 


In the German productions, he was ordinarily called,"Mackie Messer" which in German is a 'Knife'.   I referred to this earlier in discussing the film made by Pabst with Louise Brooks as Lulu, who dies by the knife,as it was common to the imagery or imagination of the time in street-language. Used for a lot of thing, as for instance in the expression,"cut-purse" thievery.

At the time, when I mentioned to lhoffman, that I had a boyfriend who had done Puccini's, La Boheme, I have tried to recall if he did The Three Penny Opera in the same theatre but I think not or I would not have had the time to choreograph dance numbers to those rhythms of Weill's.  I do recall watching fascinated as he would prepare for the theatre in the early evening and shave with a straight-edge razor, as how often would one see that done in the 1960s?  I was assurred however that it was the best method for obtaining the closest shave, since you want to do it just before performance and before applying stage makeup.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 30, 2007, 04:41:16 PM
Malkovich as Murnau,#677

I was aware of him as a director since, The Dancer Upstairs, with Laura Morante opposite Javier Bardem; but, I was unaware at the time, that he was also the producer.  Malkovich now has 15 productions to his credit as a producer, starting with, The Accidental Tourist.  I guess that I missed The Libertine, but then again maybe not if that is the one where Johnny Depp is the dual Edwardian personality ala Dr.Jekyl and Mr.Hyde but who may be Jack the Ripper or, on the other hand, merely the drug-addicted London detective finding him.

I was terribly enthused about The Dancer Upstairs when realizing Malkovich had directed it; and I rapidly became enthused about Bardem who had played the Quechua-speaking detective hunting a terrorist. This involved viewing every Spanish-speaking role of Javier Barden, who chose to come to New York at about this time, and observing he was the next best quick change artist since Laurence Olivier, while making making every role absolutely believable.

I must say that after first running out and getting that dvd of TDU, my first, and getting used to running them, and the exquisite sound, I watched this three times with long periods of time elapsing between each opportunity of viewing via tv after the primary exposure, before I finally got all the details that this film reveals.  You think you've got it,because the case is resolved, with the first viewing. But you haven't. Each viewing brings the unfolding and discovery of more complex hints, where you go, "Of course!". I hold Malkovich directly responsible for this complexity.  He is a brilliant intellectual who likes to speak lightly, just hinting of "dismissively" toward ponderous concepts. What you thought were just "production values" or coloring up a detail for the camera action, turn out to be things of consequence and of which you knew the significance but it was as if you were asleep when it was on camera the first time that you saw it in the context of the rapidity of the camera work and then where the camera chooses to rest for something in the dialogue or the acting.

I look forward to much more Malkovich.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 30, 2007, 08:57:42 PM
Quote
I have more respect for directors that stick to their visions like John Sayles

Hooray! So happy to find another Sayles fan, would be even happier there were more of his work (sigh).  Which are your favorites?  I have a special fondness for Return of the Seacaucus Seven since it was the first I saw and since it so closely paralleled the experiences of some friends o' mine.  (I used to annoy fans of The Big Chill by going on about how much better Seacaucus Seven was.)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on October 30, 2007, 09:02:55 PM
Quote
Yes, MacHeath, Mackie.  I just think of him as Mackie because the song keeps running through my head.  Have you seen the movie version?

No, read the Gay play long ago and have seen a stage production of Threepenny Opera.  Still keeping the movie in mind for when I next get to browse the library's collection.  Thanks for the answer.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on October 30, 2007, 09:15:53 PM
Dearest Nytempsperdu and Madupont...

Please be informed, my two dear ladies,
that since you aren't interested in the
movies in this Movie Forum... and since
you insist on diverting our attentions
away from the Films chosen by our
Movie fourm... that you are on IGNORE
for as long as you insist on diverting me
and my fellow cineates from the Film we've
chosen to discuss... You and Mad please
my dears, please post in the Movie forum
where I'm sure your astute comments will
be somewhat appreciated.
cc. Admidnistrator.



 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 30, 2007, 10:33:49 PM
Quote
Yes, MacHeath, Mackie.  I just think of him as Mackie because the song keeps running through my head.  Have you seen the movie version?

No, read the Gay play long ago and have seen a stage production of Threepenny Opera.  Still keeping the movie in mind for when I next get to browse the library's collection.  Thanks for the answer.

I dunno....the only MacHeath I know is to be found in TPO.  Pretty much on-topic.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 30, 2007, 10:53:01 PM
"I guess that I missed The Libertine, but then again maybe not if that is the one where Johnny Depp is the dual Edwardian personality ala Dr.Jekyl and Mr.Hyde but who may be Jack the Ripper or, on the other hand, merely the drug-addicted London detective finding him."

Maybe not. I now know that I haven't seen anything. It plays tonight in less than an hour on Encore; the story of John Wilmot, the 2nd.Earl of Rochester.

Bet you don't know who he is?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 31, 2007, 12:04:47 AM
I liked "Sunshine State" a lot and consider "City of Hope" (...if I got the title right) to be a minor masterpiece, I love Sayles and how his socialistic parables never fail as substantive drama, and he can write dialouge and inhabit characters in an way that fuses a literary sensibility with film in a way that is a rare talent.  He doesn't reference fetishistic nazi memoribilia very often, so I apologize for being off thread.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on October 31, 2007, 03:39:13 AM
Those were not two of my favorite Sayles movies.  I liked The Brother from Another Planet, Matewan, Eight Men Out, Lone Star, and has stab at television, Shannon's Deal.  I was surprised to see he wrote screenplays for Piranha, Alligator, The Howling, Clan of the Cave Bear, among others,

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000626/


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 31, 2007, 09:38:47 AM
Dzimas,

Joe Morton is "The" Brother. The whole concept was right on.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on October 31, 2007, 10:53:20 AM
"Limbo" [***SPOILER***]

I haven't seen "Limbo" but I want to because I've read a lot of different accounts about how the ending was vague/frustrating/etc.

Can anyone give me a short plot summary and explanation of what happens at the end, i.e., why it's vague/frustrating/etc., if that is actually the case?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on October 31, 2007, 11:20:15 AM
Re films that look into the future, but with a perspective that is antiquated, I always think of films like "Brazil" or "12 Monkeys" which seem to present a future built out of parts taken from the junkyard of the 19th or early 20th century.  "Sky Captain" was fun, but somehow not too memorable -- I saw it a couple years back and can remember almost nothing about it, usually a sign of style winning out over substance.  Though it could be a sign of memory impairment, too.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 31, 2007, 02:01:43 PM
Sayles started off with Roger Corman; thus the early b-titles.

I liked "Lonestar" and "Brother," too, but I guess I lean toward his political allegories more.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on October 31, 2007, 05:31:13 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

Metropolis / Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow


[In the movie when they show all of the headlines from newspapers around the globe, you can see Godzilla's outline on the Tokyo newspaper. In one of the newspaper shots you can see an "Iron Eagle", which defines the Nazi regime to be in power in Germany, although there is no sign of a preparation for war.


The sound for the beams that the robots use to extract the generators imitates the noise emitted by the death beam in The War of the Worlds (1953).

When Polly is on the phone to her editor, reporting the advance of the giant robots, her line is "They're crossing Sixth Avenue... Fifth Avenue... they're a hundred yards away...". This is a direct lift from Ray Collins's lines in Orson Welles's "The War of the Worlds" broadcast of 1938 as Collins plays a reporter on the roof of "the Broadcast Building" reporting the advance of the Martian tripods.

During the international newspaper montage after the robots attack New York, the Tokyo paper shows a photo of Godzilla attacking the city.






The montage of the newspapers also has a reference to War of the Worlds.  The London edition has the robots emerging from the ground where they had apparently been planted long before. 

No sign of a preparation for war....I think in this time warp there will be no WWII.

The movie is beautiful to look at....almost like a comic book come to life.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on October 31, 2007, 07:01:37 PM
Which reminds me that "Spiderman 3" is now on video, I wonder if anybody in Movie Club has seen that one and can state whether it holds up to the other two. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on October 31, 2007, 08:26:58 PM
Oh,des, wasn't that when he was just practicing to do his Britney Spears imitation? Which I never "got".  I'm sure it's my generation gap.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: desdemona222b on October 31, 2007, 08:46:46 PM
Don't forget to turn your volume up, maddie.  Greatest performance ever.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on November 01, 2007, 12:57:49 AM
Well, who'd a thunk it, City of Hope (title is correct) is one of my favorite Sayles' movies, as well, though I also love the ones Dzimas noted.  The combo of Sayles & Strathairn is always a winner with me.  I knew nothing about Sayles' stint with Corman or tv, but I do know he's written fiction & criticism.  A check with amazon.com has some intriguing items. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 01, 2007, 04:22:26 AM
The only Sayles movie that really left me flat was Silver City. 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0376890/

Seemed like a good idea, but it went all wrong, I thought.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 01, 2007, 04:33:02 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)


Well, who'd a thunk it...

A check with amazon.com has some intriguing items. 


Definitely, my dear. Anything but the real thing.

After finally viewing Lang, Pabst and Sky Captain...

Come back to me and say something constructive...

About cinema...


 ;D ;D ;D







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 01, 2007, 04:45:29 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)


Metropolis / Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow

The movie is beautiful to look at....almost like a comic book come to life.


 :) :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 01, 2007, 05:10:52 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

The Cineaste


"Sky Captain" was fun, but somehow not too memorable -- I saw it a couple years back and can remember almost nothing about it, usually a sign of style winning out over substance.  Though it could be a sign of memory impairment, too.


Style yes...

As to "substance" and "memory impairment," my dear...

Take a good look in the mirror before you go to work this morning...

And then tell me what you see, sweetheart...

Wanna know what I see each day before I go to work?

I look in the mirror and think Roman Polanski...

I look in the mirror and think Johnny Depp...

I look in the mirror and think The Ninth Gate (1999)...

I look in the mirror and think Eraserhead (1977)...

Then I drive to work and come back home...

Then I click on my flatscreen...

And put on my headphones...

Have a nice day, kido....



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 01, 2007, 05:17:52 AM
Another interesting movie along these lines was Europa, aka Zentropa, by Lars von Trier,

(http://www.kinema.uwaterloo.ca/images/Europa%201a.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XL85uhOzm4

which took place in immediate post-war Germany.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 01, 2007, 10:13:04 AM
Dzimas, yes, I did see it,and it is upsettingly hard to take, although it had wide play on one of the film channels (HBO,Sundance,IFC? probably when I was picking up the Philadelphia/Wilmington,Delaware programming however. Perhaps, I should explain that is where moderate Republicanism ends; and, as you go west,where the state capital takes over in Harrisburg, or even a little north into suburban Philly,you get the more extreme form of radical republican pushovers,representatives who want to remain in office until they die because it is a kushy job and they have forgotten how to do anything else for a living should they suffer the loss of their gravy train).

But I didn't plan to see it again any time soon, cogitating that someone had  the chutzpah to  indite post-war Germany from die Wende (deutsch einheit)as a viewpoint; yet, of course, we are regularly reminded that Lars von Trier suffers not only frequent but a more disabling persistent depression.

Watching your sample of Europa Zentropa, I am reminded of Barbara Sukowa's baby-doll,slightly protruding upper-lip, pronunciation of German as a flirtatious come-on but never mind I witnessed plenty of that soft-spoken interaction just four days ago just so I could catch what some people call the zeitgeist,let's face it, the mood, by observing the last day of Oktoberfest. It's upon us again.

Watching the trailer, that's the one that originally caught my attention because the apparent hero of the piece so much resembled a friend of my brother named Deschler whose parents brought him out after the war,which meant they took jobs in a local northern suburb,placement, the father as a chauffeur,the mother as the cook on some kind of small estate like the one that Sukowa's character's parents would have owned(let's just say it is a small world); he, of course,after finishing highschool with my brother, took one of those Kafkaesque jobs as a court-recorder transcribing dictation of the proceedings. My brother was still in jack boots.

Of course, Jean-Marc Barr, did you notice, has a strange resemblence to a younger Kevin Spacey as he first looked when making the transition into films.But, then, as I said, it is a "small world",since the transition was from New Jersey with its pre-war past to California's training theatres until he went bi-coastally back to Juilliard. The most interesting direction after proving himself in films was the benefit that he did for British victims of 9/11, which was held at the Old Vic. Within two years, Spacey took over the artistic directorship of that theatre.

Other than the continuing aspects of our small worldliness, I would any day put Lars Von Trier's Europa/Zentropa up against The Third Man of Orson Welles.  Think about it.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on November 01, 2007, 11:41:29 AM
Puget, I'd appreciate it if you didn't address me as "sweetheart" or "my dear." 

--regards,

Bart


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 01, 2007, 12:30:34 PM
You may have heard what he called some of the rest of us in earlier days(at another venue to be sure).

But alas, look what happened to that venue. The magic carpet was pulled out when the name callers least suspected the carpet would fold;but then they were given no warning.

Which reminds me, I ought go read what the authorized have to say now. I get behind when my mail gets frantically commercialized. I wonder if that was what was meant when she said,"After us,the Deluge"?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Urethra_Franklin on November 01, 2007, 12:37:10 PM
Hey puge,



Have you ever seen Ed Wood's classic "Glen or Glenda"?


I think it'd be right up your alley....




(http://uashome.alaska.edu/~jndfg20/website/glen.gif)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on November 01, 2007, 01:37:43 PM
The Urethra moniker would be funnier if Aretha Franklin weren't such an outstanding singer -- doesn't she get a little r-e-s-p-e-c-t?

I see you've returned, Detective Winslow.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Urethra_Franklin on November 01, 2007, 01:55:39 PM
The Urethra moniker would be funnier if Aretha Franklin weren't such an outstanding singer -- doesn't she get a little r-e-s-p-e-c-t?

I see you've returned, Detective Winslow.




And she's smokin' hot to boot.......




(http://www.uncorrelated.com/images/aretha_franklin.jpg)



Give this lady some r-e-l-a-c-o-r!






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 01, 2007, 02:10:07 PM
Hey puge,
Have you ever seen Ed Wood's classic "Glen or Glenda"?
I think it'd be right up your alley....
(http://uashome.alaska.edu/~jndfg20/website/glen.gif)

Well, I do have this fondness for angora...    :)

(http://www.angoraknit.com/catalog/white%20angora%20gown.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 01, 2007, 05:35:50 PM
I liked it better when he went with moniker's like "john_blutarsky," but he seems to have matured since his appreciation of films went outside the work of Murray/Belushi/Chase exclusively.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on November 01, 2007, 05:46:28 PM
Quote
The only Sayles movie that really left me flat was Silver City. 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0376890/

Seemed like a good idea, but it went all wrong, I thought.

I didn't even know about that one, dzimas, will try to see it for his take on immigrant community (and as part of some weird completeness compulsion).  Thanks for letting me know about it. 

 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 01, 2007, 05:46:48 PM
jbottle,

C'mon, are you referring to U.Franklin or to Pugnacious as Blutarsky; or do you imply that he is one and the same, which I thought most likely?

The interest in photo reproduction you see had not been previously that big with the Detective known as Wilson, had it?

I don't know but it is either one big split personality break down or just a very odd coincidence as always.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 01, 2007, 07:24:26 PM
I used to be known as "jbottle," and I called them like I saw them, but I can't speculate about who is a troll and who is an evolved person of interest who used to reside under the bridge, because I've been there, I was thought of as a troll on 3EYE for putting the two leading homosexual contributors there in broad contrast, yet I was the subject of ad homenim attack.  I was accused of being homophobic by repeating the arguments of an admitted homosexual, I was called "anti-personal trainer" for making an poorly thought out, "roid rage" joke in the middle of revelations about steroid abuse while Mark McGuire's hat size was up 3 in. and his cock in retreat, I was kicked off for sarcasm, jokes, and wit, mostly, and like some who suffered under the kind but stern watch of the girls who were SYSTEM OPERATORS, I understand being the ousider, defending the voiceless on indeterminate probation, I have instant karma with those who enjoy vulgar frat-boy humor as shallow as it is cruel; and yet my loyalty to the medium always o'ershadows my allegiance to the cause of the individual.  I understood the snuffout of my incarnation on 3EYE if the intgrity of the self-congratulatory, self-affirming unbroken chain circle jerk could be maintained, with the friendly fire of a fragged "Brokeback Mountain" skeptic and admitted antipersonaltranarian, fuck it, I get it, but just because I understand doesn't mean I've stopped the fight, and the rage against the dying of the light.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Urethra_Franklin on November 02, 2007, 03:47:56 AM
jbottle,

C'mon, are you referring to U.Franklin or to Pugnacious as Blutarsky; or do you imply that he is one and the same, which I thought most likely?

The interest in photo reproduction you see had not been previously that big with the Detective known as Wilson, had it?

I don't know but it is either one big split personality break down or just a very odd coincidence as always.


Yo cheesedick,



Is puge even a male?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: ponderosa on November 02, 2007, 07:05:43 AM
no, he's a zombie. or is he billy? either way, take heed...

http://www.archive.org/details/What_To_Do_In_A_Zombie_Attack


Title: ooops
Post by: ponderosa on November 02, 2007, 07:41:08 AM
above in reference to the poster formerly employed as a detective. carry on.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 02, 2007, 11:57:20 AM
(http://www.kinema.uwaterloo.ca/images/Europa%201a.jpg)

Zentropa

Charming, isn’t it?

How this movie club has devolved into Zentropa Hell…

At last we seem to finally agree on something…

My dear cineastes… and I use that term loosely…

A truly hellish film like Zentropa…

As long as we’re all in hell now…

Why not discuss this dystopian gem?

We seem to be in the No Exit mode anyway right?

Just look around us here in our lovely little forum?

We have some true "expert witnesses" don’t we?

I’ll start things off…

What does Zentropa mean?


C'mon don't be bashful  ??? ??? ???



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 02, 2007, 12:02:00 PM
Let's face it, you wouldn't understand "No Exit" if it bit you in the heinie.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 02, 2007, 12:11:04 PM
See what I mean?

That was quick...

A true expert witness in hell...

Only too ready to help our movie discussion...


 :) :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 02, 2007, 12:15:37 PM
(http://www.kinema.uwaterloo.ca/images/Europa%201a.jpg)

Zentropa

"Narrator: You will now listen to my voice. My voice will help you and guide you still deeper into Europa. Every time you hear my voice, with every word and every number, you will enter into a still deeper layer, open, relaxed and receptive. I shall now count from one to ten. On the count of ten, you will be in Europa. I say: one. And as your focus and attention are entirely on my voice, you will slowly begin to relax. Two, your hands and your fingers are getting warmer and heavier. Three, the warmth is spreading through your arms, to your shoulders and your neck. Four, your feet and your legs get heavier. Five, the warmth is spreading to the whole of your body. On six, I want you to go deeper. I say: six. And the whole of your relaxed body is slowly beginning to sink. Seven, you go deeper and deeper and deeper. Eight, on every breath you take, you go deeper. Nine, you are floating. On the mental count of ten, you will be in Europa. Be there at ten. I say: ten."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101829/quotes


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 02, 2007, 12:52:36 PM
I've never seen Europa...but as to being bit in the heinie by Sartre, some would know better than others:


Do you know who I was?...Oh, well, it's no great matter. And, to tell the truth, I had quite a habit of living among furniture that I didn't relish, and in false positions. I'd even come to like it. A false position in a Louis-Philippe dining room-- you know the style?--well, that had its points, you know. Bogus in bogus, so to speak.

I'll take a room with a window.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 02, 2007, 01:08:00 PM
Zentropa
A review by Damian Cannon.
Copyright © Movie Reviews UK 1997
http://www.film.u-net.com/Movies/Reviews/Europa.html

Here's a little review to titillate your cinematic IQ... is that the right term?

"A technically dazzling, convoluted encounter with post-war Germany, Europa impresses even as it staggers through an ambiguous plot. Arriving a few months after the surrender, Leopold Kessler (Jean-Marc Barr) finds himself surrounded on all sides by the aftermath of WWII. Although born an American, Leo has German parents and feels, idealistically, that he'd like to give something back to the devastated country. Aimless beyond this basic notion, Leo has been found a position by his zealously bureaucratic Uncle Kessler (Ernst-Hugo Jaeregaard). He will become, like his uncle, a sleeping-car conductor with the Zentropa railway company. Forced to pay out handsomely in order to secure this vacancy, Leo is soon thrust into the Kafkaesque world of the first-class carriage."

Sound familiar? Please read on...

"On Katharina's recommendation, Leo is invited to dinner by Max Hartmann (Jorgen Reenberg), his ultimate boss. Accompanied by his grasping uncle, Leo meets the son Lawrence (Udo Kier) and another guest, Pater (Erik Mork). Dark wartime secrets nip at the heels of those present, throughout the meal, with Pater directing particularly disparaging remarks towards Leo (because he took no side during the conflict). Max has metaphorically dirty hands from allowing his wagons to be used for the transport of an entirely different form of cargo, during the war, while the current climate requires evidence of a clean past. An old friend, US Colonel Harris (Eddie Constantine), may be able to assist in this respect. However, Leo remains stranded in no-mans land as Katharina chases him, Harris tries to recruit him and Uncle reproaches him for not studying hard enough for the coming exam."

I like the next line... talk about forum deja vu...

"Given the reduced importance of character development in Europa, the central figures are placed in limbo."

Limbo...

Cheers...





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 02, 2007, 02:13:30 PM
(http://www.kinema.uwaterloo.ca/images/Europa%201a.jpg)

Zentropa (1991)

Let's face it, you wouldn't understand "No Exit" if it bit you in the heinie.

"You have to realize my father was a professor of anatomy..."

Very interesting. I had no idea you were an authority on anatomy too...

Please elaborate on what you meant by me being bitten on my "heinie" won't you please?

Have you actually seen Zentropa yet? Hmmmmmmm?




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 02, 2007, 02:20:22 PM
Sorry Pugetopolis...you must have misread.  Her father was a physician....working class, you know....However would you have the impression that the man was  professor of anatomy?  (Although, given the Catholic school education, professor makes more sense than working class physician....didn't those types of physicians used to get paid in chickens?)

"The General, speaking one felt with authority, always insisted that, if you bring off adequate preservation of your personal myth, nothing much else in life matters.  It is not what happens to people that is significant, but what they think happens to them." (Anthony Powell)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 02, 2007, 02:39:37 PM
(http://www.kinema.uwaterloo.ca/images/Europa%201a.jpg)

Zentropao

Well, I'm off to the video store...

Dzimas got me interested in Zentropa...

What a Halloween this has been, don't you think?

Trolls and zombies... and a couple of mean old witches...

Still flying around on their ratty old brooms...

Poor unhappy things...

I don't think they like us, Hoffman...

What have we done to upset them so much?

Watch out now, girl! Here they come!


 :) :) :)
 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 02, 2007, 05:13:48 PM
I knew it, I just knew it, that his Highness, the Schwartz, hadn't yet seen the movie when he held forth and read the description off his club literature for the box-collection of the month club of famous last words.

Honestly, lhoffman is developing a better poetic line  than your patter although I highly suspect you send it by message.

Here it is  Big Boy, since you fell into this interest into what is Germane, "a heinie" is what we called the Bosch in the Second World War.  It's a valid word, but their uniforms emphasized that part of their anatomy.

Now for some reflection of your sidekick's brilliant patter,"Her father was a physician....working class, you know....However would you have the impression that the man was  professor of anatomy?  (Although..."

No,lhoffman, he was a surgeon and therefore he taught anatomy, first of all to medical students.  Then he taught surgical technique to the surgical residents. And since he worked his way through school, first beginning in Law before switching to Medicine, he was a working-class physician at the time of the Depression. Treating entire households of people, the average German-style city house in America was a four story affair with people on most floors of it as I tried to explain to you making fun of me and working-class Germans when I had "booked" the non-fiction forum for reading of Peeling the Onion by Gunter Grass; you have a hell of a nerve to lecture me about proletariat vs working class.

"....given the Catholic school education, professor makes more sense than working class physician....didn't those types of physicians used to get paid in chickens?)

Somehow, for a "physicist's wife" you have a lack of knowledge about the profession of a professor in any of the sciences?  My father wasn't Catholic by the way. He hated working in Catholic hospitals, because nuns like you screwed up the surgery schedule for Holy Days and the surgery itself. So Happy Poor Souls Day to you too. But yes, Capuchin monks paid him in home-grown vegetables, since working class physicians "used to get paid in chickens?)", others paid him in fish, Italians paid him in colorful ices,  I sat at the free lunch of the bar, waiting for him to examine entire familys who lived in the flours above the ground floor beer-bars, which is why i never could eat a raw scallion,onion,green pepper or radish until I broke myself of the intolerance in adulthood, I still skip the scallion and raw onion, but you see what he did by practicing medicine in that way was the essential public health not happening today.

Apparently pugetopolis spent the better part of the mid-day afternoon finding out what movies we were discussing in what was not good enough for you to share with your need for a special class of accommodations.  I'm frankly sorry that I ever met you asking your religious questions with your phony piety while others had read The Year of Magical Thinking. Although by now, I think that I know what you were mourning...





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 02, 2007, 06:19:21 PM
My Dear Madupont....as to Peeling the Onion, you had booked the forum for a "discussion" of the book.  Clearly, you began the "discussion" before you finished reading the book.  (I doubt you've finished it yet.)  A discussion involves more than one person, and you were the only one there. 

But who are we kidding?  You weren't discussing Peeling the Onion or even Gunter Grass.  You were discussing your favorite topic....Madupont (this is how I grew up, this is where I lived, these were the very special [far more special than you] people I knew...)  Perhaps this is why you feel so comfortable living in your world of cut-and-paste...no one in history has ever written a sentence that wasn't about you.  And perhaps in one instance you are correct....who else could the phrase "crashing bore" refer to?

I'm frankly sorry that I ever met you...  Well, I don't have to feel sorry myself as I've never met you.  Every sentence you've ever posted to me was indicative of nothing so much as your intellectual laziness and your dazzling skills at cut-and-paste.  Toto tears away the curtain and discovers a very ordinary man.....


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 02, 2007, 06:41:21 PM
Madupont...As to your comment the other day about authorized users at the NYT,  I recall that you were banned from those forums....not once, but twice. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 02, 2007, 07:28:33 PM
I can see now that the two of you  in your folie a deux will not have many takers to join you, as you continue to demonstrate what you think of anybody else's ideas. On the contrary, I have plenty of ideas and I do give credit where credit is due, my life is not cut and paste.  Your own weird distorted idea is a reflection of what you've been doing. The first project of a reading called The Poisonwood Bible, when I brought commentary, it was you who posted pieces from wikipedia on old Testament  "heroines",etc.    I left the Fiction forum.

I don't enjoy your tacky lies.  You have since continued to do cut and paste, plastering in different places when selling the concept of Orientalism ala Edward Said in yet another forum, when I recognized that you did not know the painting you presented nor the concept that Said was discussings but nevertheless this...
went on for quite awhile into other forums you visit like Meander, I'd present you with an example of what Said's "Orientalism"  was in relation to music, as a sexist form, and you,who have studied music,would go "duh...".

This is similar to Mr. Bogus offering somebody's print up of what Magic Realism meant in Nazi Germany,with the irony of the stipulator of the concept going to jail.  Neither of you understand the things that you talk about in a pretense of intellectualism.

Yes, it was my idea and not yours to write this up  because frankly somebody asked what you are about in here. I decided the best answer,of a long topic,is right in here by a demonstration of the usual interaction.

I figure three strikes and you are out playing this game, I am not going to forgive and forget again your hypocrisy and game-playing. Where I supply you with materials,you didn't know were available,and then you insult me for being a fool.

Good Night, and Good Luck.  Say,hi!to Kathi (or, possibly you don't know
                                                              why?)

re: you latest new post
" I recall that you were banned from those forums....not once, but twice." No, you don't because you weren't even there at the time to know of the "petty politics" (going on at what you call the NYT) were  in relationship to the National policies at the time of the Tsunami. One minute I am talking to Fdelangre about his recipe for the traditional New Year's Day cooking and wishing him a Happy Holiday season along with everybody else, and the next thing you know kaput with things as they were in Western Europe forum. Let's face it neither one of you two know anything about that subject. Well, fdelangre is still a member here, in fact he told me about these forums, the name no doubt intrigued him.

And I already told you, I never knew a thing about you until you read a book by Joan Didion that I was reading in a discussion group. As I recall by the time that I left it was another holiday which is a dead give away when the same modus operandi is employed as previously. But apparently you didn't know the half of it, otherwise you wouldn't have ended up here now. You would no doubt still be there, correct?  As I recall, you didn't have much of an important role in making the transition, as the host of this show about Old Films had his own little bunch of rowdies to accompany him with cries of: "No Censorship of Pornography should be allowed. It does no physical harm to women". Ahuh.

It began to equate to,there is no need of any other literature but LBGT
(but he can talk about films...).

I do understand what happened. Apparently one Reader tired of playing the role you decided to take over, the other is still with us under a pseudonym which allows the dodge of having been called the same names being tossed around again in here ad hominem.





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 02, 2007, 07:33:51 PM
As usual, you don't know what you're talking about.....no worry, I don't know what you're talking about either (doubtful anyone does).  But here is the post from the other day that I referred to before,  deliciously ironic (being that the NYT gave you the boot.)  Thanks for the chuckle.

Quote
26   Arts / Movies / Re: Movie Club  on: November 01, 2007, 12:30:34 PM 
You may have heard what he called some of the rest of us in earlier days(at another venue to be sure).

But alas, look what happened to that venue. The magic carpet was pulled out when the name callers least suspected the carpet would fold;but then they were given no warning.

Which reminds me, I ought go read what the authorized have to say now. I get behind when my mail gets frantically commercialized. I wonder if that was what was meant when she said,"After us,the Deluge"?
Reply Quote Notify 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 02, 2007, 07:37:56 PM
You may have lost count, but you told me the other day Three Strikes etc, and you've addressed me several times since.  Alas, I was so hoping that you were a woman of your word.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 02, 2007, 07:49:30 PM
The NYTimes Readers Group Archives

Actually, three times, Hoffman...

...if you include the NYTimes Western Europe Forum...

Same problem... same person...

The NYTimes archives is on disc for researchers...

BTW these archives are rather valuable now...

Several university rare book room collections...

For future media research and scholarship...

Elba continues this seminal tradition...

Nothing is ever really destroyed...

Either the gold or straw...
 :) :) :)




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 02, 2007, 07:57:16 PM
LOL....Apparently I lost count.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 02, 2007, 08:33:46 PM
The Topix Forum—Re: Madupont

Posted in the Publishing Forum
Related Topix: US News, New York Times
http://www.topix.com/forum/business/publishing/TAETDPLOO5FQABOUK

What makes the following postings interesting in terms of Elba politics is this—the posters (Becky, Roadytoad, Dzimas, etc) who disagreed with Madupont’s explanations for her being banned from The New York Times. What sadly and ironically has now become apparent is that Becky defends Madupont now after calling her a liar—and Dzimas seems to have distanced himself from Mad’s somewhat strange projections. I was unfortunately involved with defending the NYTimes Paglia Readers Group Forum from the same tactics being used now to compromise The Movie Club. One needs to know the media-context of such matters—as Whiskeypriest was fond of saying: context, context, context. I trust this post will end the matter—and we can get on with the next film here in the Movie Club.

Groundswell of anger at paper's exposure of secret anti-terror ...

More than a half-dozen groups are leading a rally at the New York Times
headquarters to protest the newspaper's publishing of stories exposing
national security intelligence programs.

Full story: World Net Daily: July 3, 2006

MadupontCampbelltown, PA    Reply » #2 Jul 6, 2006 I go to the LA TIMES to find out there is this connection to a forum that discussed the contretemps between the government and The New York Times? (there was no discussion visible at LA Times other than this connection) All I can say is that while I was supporting The New York Times, as an individual citizen, and against the hypocrisy directed at the Editor in the nytimes forums, a moderator banned me for speaking up in my own self-defense against insults from posters who disdain politics and my exercise of free speech.

nyt friend Portsmouth, VA    Reply » #3 Jul 16, 2006 Not quite right, mad. The NY Times offers a great opportunity for people to speak on issues. However, in the forums they wish for the posters to remain on topic. When discussing a novel that has nothing to do with modern politics they expected the novel to be discussed. You chose to ignore the warnings and continued your little vendetta. Papers and other media have a tough time maintaining the balance of fairness. We'll see what Plame's lawsuit brings. Maybe we'll learn the truth then. As far as papers printing stories, even if the current admin doesn't want them to, is a sign of a strong and free press. Threatening trials for publishing exposes is tyrannical.

Good Riddance Atlanta, GA    Reply » #4 Jul 17, 2006 nyt friend -Madupont didn't get banned from the NYT for posting off-topic. She was banned because she disrupted every forum she participated in with insults, consdension, and off-topic tangents. She was warned several times by the moderator to stop insulting people and she refused, as you say. Good riddance, I say. I love that "while I was supporting the NYT" - ha! As if her presence there was any kind of "support" - more like a real damper to any intelligent conversation.

DzimasVilnius, Lithuania    Reply » #5 Jul 26, 2006 Hello Madupont, I recently found out you had been banned from the NYTimes book forums. For what it is worth, I wrote a letter to the Forums editor asking for your reinstatement. I well understand your frustration with the book forums... obviously a power play. Take a look at the latest actions in the Reading Group Forums. Anyway, I miss you.

longtime nyt readerAOL    Reply » #6 Aug 1, 2006 I hope I'm not intruding but my curiosity is piqued about what would constitue "mounting a power play" on a reading group forum?

Trying to stay "on topic" is all I've ever wanted to do...

Take a look at this Movie Club... It's very difficult staying on topic with any single movie for an extended period of time. The Posting Record speaks for itself. Why is it so difficult to simply pick One Movie... and Stick With It?

I've been called an Egomaniac, a Fag, a Transvestite, a Troll, a Pedophile and most recently a Heinie...

Just because I want to discuss One Movie in Detail... like a professional online cineaste...

Why is being a Moviegoer so difficult?





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 02, 2007, 09:09:02 PM
It's not, you should try it.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 02, 2007, 09:32:06 PM
Forum politics is interesting in general, but I think that the idea was "new venue, new start."  And I was certainly willing to talk with Madupont.  Example:  She loves to bring up the past, a point being the Poisonwood Bible discussion.  As usual, Madupont had not read the book, and so had nothing to contribute to the discussion.  Instead, she posted, uncredited, a list of discussion questions from Sparksnotes.  One of her few original contributions to the discussion was her comment that the name ADA was not to be found in the Old Testament....this after implying to us of her credentials as an Old Testament Scholar.  I attributed her mistake to the lack of vowels in the Hebrew alphabet....knowing of course that no scholar of the Old Testament would have made such a mistake.

She comments on TPO...a film she had not watched.  Again, I was willing to discuss with her.  Out of the blue, she makes rude comments.  New Venue, New Start....hah.

But, as to the idea of Movie Club, perhaps it would be better if there were some concensus on a film to watch.  The idea is a bit different from the Movie forums, where the idea is to comment on several films, old, new, currently playing.  I notice that there are several posters over there who really seem to understand movies.  (I suspect, though, that most aren't interested in discussing one movie at length.)

Dzimas mentioned Malkovich or Sayles.  Pugetopolis mentioned Europa.  I've been watching the works of Guy Maddin....weird and fun.  


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 02, 2007, 09:51:00 PM
Hoffman Dzimas

I agree Hoffman...

But so far, only you, dzimas and I seem to agree to this strategy...

I've enjoyed discussing Lynch, del Toro, Pabst and neo-Lang films with you and dzimas...

That's really all we can expect... that's all we really need...

There can't be any authenic consesus beyond that... not really...

My ignore box is full of cretins and creepazoids now...

They're getting rather restless down there in the dark...

Let's proceed as we have done so far...

Happiness is the best revenge...
:) :) :)










Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 02, 2007, 09:58:01 PM
http://www.pabst.com/


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 02, 2007, 10:27:25 PM
LOL...."We need to see some ID, please."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 02, 2007, 10:37:00 PM
Pugetopolis....I've enjoyed the discussion of the movies so far.  It's interesting that one movie flows naturally into another. 

It seems to me that if concensus can't be reached, then the next best thing is to have concurrent discussions.  Those who aren't interested in discussing at length can post in Movie forum...which I think is the intent...and movies discussions here should be more specific and ongoing.

I'd be interested in watching Malkovich or Europa.  In the case of Malkovich, would we watch a particular film?  As to Europa...I have read that it's part of a trio...would we watch the single film or the complete work?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 02, 2007, 10:41:06 PM
Ignoring...I haven't had to put anyone on ignore except the Detective.  The brain thing he posted really creeped me out.  Perhaps Madupont and I should put each other on mutual ignore...although I suspect many readers will sorely miss the entertainment.   


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 02, 2007, 11:25:52 PM
 :) :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: ponderosa on November 03, 2007, 07:36:51 AM
http://www.pabst.com/

"Hello Almighty, Almighty, this is PBR Street Gang - radio check, over." Chef


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: TrojanHorse on November 03, 2007, 10:20:47 AM

My ignore box is full of cretins and creepazoids now...



...coming from the most ignored on Elba...

1984 was a good book in its day also...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 03, 2007, 11:41:29 AM
...coming from the most ignored on Elba...

Trojan, as long as you don't ignore, baby, everything's just fine.

Seen any good movies lately, hmmmm?
   :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: TrojanHorse on November 03, 2007, 12:34:10 PM
...coming from the most ignored on Elba...

Trojan, as long as you don't ignore, baby, everything's just fine.

Seen any good movies lately, hmmmm?
   :) :)

I'll be honest...I'm not equipped to discuss them at the level most of you folks do...  And I'm not going to pretend I know more than I do.

I can barely distinguish film noir from neo noir and probably blow that about half the time...

It's not that I wouldn't like to learn someday, but still can't quite find the time to educate myself in every area to that extent, so...you've got to pick your battles.  That's why I don't really hang out on this side of the tracks much...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 03, 2007, 12:50:13 PM
(http://www.galeriedupassage.com/site/photos_galerie/a232-241.jpg)

That's okay...

That's why I'm posting over there on the other side of tracks, dear...

Just for you. Please check out the David Lynch photos...

Thanks to Martin...

It takes two to tango in this old world = 2 movie forums...

There's plenty of room in both forums for good movies...


 :) :) :)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 03, 2007, 02:21:56 PM
...coming from the most ignored on Elba...

Trojan, as long as you don't ignore, baby, everything's just fine.

Seen any good movies lately, hmmmm?
   :) :)

I'll be honest...I'm not equipped to discuss them at the level most of you folks do...  And I'm not going to pretend I know more than I do.

I can barely distinguish film noir from neo noir and probably blow that about half the time...

It's not that I wouldn't like to learn someday, but still can't quite find the time to educate myself in every area to that extent, so...you've got to pick your battles.  That's why I don't really hang out on this side of the tracks much...

I don't know much about film either.  That's why I like the idea of discussing in depth....leads to new ways of viewing. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 03, 2007, 02:31:54 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/173/cb4/173cb4af-5adf-4ac5-869d-dcd55a6e302a)

Metropolis / Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow

What would Fritz Lang and Leni Riefenstahl do with Cinema today?   

The reason I ask this question is that it constantly recurred to me as I was watching Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (2004)—I kept noticing enticing references to Lang’s Metropolis and Riefenstahl’s Triumph of the Will…

At first I thought it was just my imagination—but then it gradually dawned on me that Kerry Conran and Jude Law and others involved with the film were making clever asides and insider-jokes to other sci-fi dystopian films and actors from the past—as well as to Weimar and German cinema.

Many modern horror films have done the same thing—such as a TV in the living room with The Thing or War of the Worlds playing on the screen in the background while the actual movie is going on. It’s a kind of tribute or filmic footnote within a Film to the filmic heritage within which Hollywood operates—a film within a film…

Later I was able to see how the imdb site brings this out nicely—the many nuances and filmic / literary / acting references in this movie is somewhat breathtaking. The time and energy that went into making these intertextual references is very interesting to me. Writers like Pynchon in Gravity’s Rainbow does it—the internet footnote page we studied during our Gravity’s Rainbow NYTimes Readers Group Discussion is along those same lines…

And so, if I may, I’d like to share with you some of these interesting similarities between Metropolis and Sky Captain--as well as other dystopian views toward the future. With the idea in mind—that cinema is increasingly relevant to utopian / dystopian thought....

What would Fritz Lang and Leni Riefenstahl do with Cinema today?

Was able to watch Sky Captain, with and without commentary.  Visually stunning, but sometimes I had the feeling that stuff was put in for the cool factor, the idea being that art is larger than life. 

Compare this to the Riefenstahl Triumph of the Will.  The idea here is the opposite.  Life, Hitler, the State are so awe inspiring that the film can only be a mere reflection.  Hitler himself tells the people over and again that what they see here (in the various ralleys) is only a small representation of what was occurring over the rest of Germany. 







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 03, 2007, 02:34:12 PM
WWHD?

That's my main thing with film, like, what would Hitler do?  That's what really turns me on about film.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 03, 2007, 02:37:30 PM
Yes, there is that, but Riefenstahl had an amazing eye.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 03, 2007, 03:24:40 PM
All in good fun, cheers.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 03, 2007, 05:10:26 PM
(http://c250.columbia.edu/images/c250_celebrates/remarkable_columbians/240x240_bio_percy.jpg)
Walker Percy

"We live, Mrs. Schexnaydre and I, on Elysian Fields,
the main thoroughfare of Faubourg Marigny..."
—Walker Percy, The Moviegoer


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 03, 2007, 05:19:41 PM
(http://c250.columbia.edu/images/c250_celebrates/remarkable_columbians/240x240_bio_percy.jpg)
Walker Percy

“I remembered the first time the search occurred to me.
I came to myself under a chindolea bush. Everything is
upsidedown for me, as I shall explain later..." 
—Walker Percy, The Moviegoer


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 03, 2007, 05:24:14 PM
I'd like to be a fly on the wall for when Percy and Shelby Foote got the booze flowing and the women had gone to bed.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 03, 2007, 05:46:20 PM
(http://c250.columbia.edu/images/c250_celebrates/remarkable_columbians/240x240_bio_percy.jpg)

“…in the thick singing darkness of Delta summer evening,
I noticed in the Picayune that another western was playing
at the same theater. So up I went, by car to my aunt’s house,
then up St Charles in a streetcar…through the campus…nothing
had changed…I sat in the same seat…and afterwards came out
into the smell of privet…camphor berries popped underfoot on
the same section of broken pavement.” ..."
—Walker Percy, The Moviegoer




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 03, 2007, 05:56:46 PM
(http://c250.columbia.edu/images/c250_celebrates/remarkable_columbians/240x240_bio_percy.jpg)
Walker Percy


“A successful repetition. What is repetition?
A repetition is the re-enactment of past experience
toward the end of isolating the time segment which
has lapsed in order that it, the lapsed time, can be
savored of itself and without the usual adulteration
of events that clog time like peanuts in brittle.”
—Walker Percy, The Moviegoer




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 03, 2007, 06:17:27 PM
I like old Percy, but I imagine drink getting the better of the other 5 books he could've given us, I like the melancholy suburban one where he is having fainting spells in sand traps, maybe "Lancelot," need to get back to a couple of those, but without question, "The Moviegoer" is a must read, and it's hard to place Percy anywhere other than the Southern Camus, and set it in New Orleans and you get the National Book Award, without googling, I'm thinking '65?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 03, 2007, 07:08:12 PM
(http://c250.columbia.edu/images/c250_celebrates/remarkable_columbians/240x240_bio_percy.jpg)

Think now, baby.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 03, 2007, 07:41:14 PM
(http://c250.columbia.edu/images/c250_celebrates/remarkable_columbians/240x240_bio_percy.jpg)
Walker Percy


“A successful repetition. What is repetition?
A repetition is the re-enactment of past experience
toward the end of isolating the time segment which
has lapsed in order that it, the lapsed time, can be
savored of itself and without the usual adulteration
of events that clog time like peanuts in brittle.”
—Walker Percy, The Moviegoer




Walker Kierkegaard Walker Kierkegaard Walker Kierkegaard....it never ends. 

But would Binx....child of Southern gentility....have become an aesthete had it not been for the horrors of the war?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 03, 2007, 07:42:44 PM
I like old Percy, but I imagine drink getting the better of the other 5 books he could've given us, I like the melancholy suburban one where he is having fainting spells in sand traps, maybe "Lancelot," need to get back to a couple of those, but without question, "The Moviegoer" is a must read, and it's hard to place Percy anywhere other than the Southern Camus, and set it in New Orleans and you get the National Book Award, without googling, I'm thinking '65?

A blog that give a list of books and movies mentioned in The MovieGoer.  Are there more? 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 03, 2007, 07:44:07 PM
I like Thanatos Syndrome.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 03, 2007, 08:15:17 PM
I like Thanatos Syndrome.

How so?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 03, 2007, 08:38:16 PM
I was partially kidding jbottle because the Thanatos has Weimar themes.  I did like it, though.  There are the themes of insanity and wrestling with faith.  The protagonist's wife and his friends become people he doesn't know.  Walker plays with the idea of disruption of speech, something that makes us human.  Then there is the discovery that the water in his town is poison.  Everything that boosts us up is torn down.  I found it quite frightening. 

Then over all is the novel's assertion that we are no better than the Nazis were, that we only value those we claim to love for their usefulness to our own lives.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 04, 2007, 01:57:00 AM
And just to bring it full circle at least what's her name was good with propaganda, now it's just say "yellowcake" and fuck it...

"Thanatos Syndrome" I thought of at the time as a sort of Darwin in Refrain Comedy, but the Catholics like him, so what the hell.  I saw a racoon tonight as curious about me as I was about him, but I never saw him build anything and you almost want to slap him on the back.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 04, 2007, 05:58:54 AM

Another interesting movie along these lines was Europa, aka Zentropa, by Lars von Trier,

(http://www.kinema.uwaterloo.ca/images/Europa%201a.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XL85uhOzm4

which took place in immediate post-war Germany.




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 04, 2007, 06:00:52 AM

Dzimas, yes, I did see it,and it is upsettingly hard to take, although it had wide play on one of the film channels (HBO,Sundance,IFC? probably when I was picking up the Philadelphia/Wilmington,Delaware programming however. Perhaps, I should explain that is where moderate Republicanism ends; and, as you go west,where the state capital takes over in Harrisburg, or even a little north into suburban Philly,you get the more extreme form of radical republican pushovers,representatives who want to remain in office until they die because it is a kushy job and they have forgotten how to do anything else for a living should they suffer the loss of their gravy train).

But I didn't plan to see it again any time soon, cogitating that someone had  the chutzpah to  indite post-war Germany from die Wende (deutsch einheit)as a viewpoint; yet, of course, we are regularly reminded that Lars von Trier suffers not only frequent but a more disabling persistent depression.

Watching your sample of Europa Zentropa, I am reminded of Barbara Sukowa's baby-doll,slightly protruding upper-lip, pronunciation of German as a flirtatious come-on but never mind I witnessed plenty of that soft-spoken interaction just four days ago just so I could catch what some people call the zeitgeist,let's face it, the mood, by observing the last day of Oktoberfest. It's upon us again.

Watching the trailer, that's the one that originally caught my attention because the apparent hero of the piece so much resembled a friend of my brother named Deschler whose parents brought him out after the war,which meant they took jobs in a local northern suburb,placement, the father as a chauffeur,the mother as the cook on some kind of small estate like the one that Sukowa's character's parents would have owned(let's just say it is a small world); he, of course,after finishing highschool with my brother, took one of those Kafkaesque jobs as a court-recorder transcribing dictation of the proceedings. My brother was still in jack boots.

Of course, Jean-Marc Barr, did you notice, has a strange resemblence to a younger Kevin Spacey as he first looked when making the transition into films.But, then, as I said, it is a "small world",since the transition was from New Jersey with its pre-war past to California's training theatres until he went bi-coastally back to Juilliard. The most interesting direction after proving himself in films was the benefit that he did for British victims of 9/11, which was held at the Old Vic. Within two years, Spacey took over the artistic directorship of that theatre.

Other than the continuing aspects of our small worldliness, I would any day put Lars Von Trier's Europa/Zentropa up against The Third Man of Orson Welles.  Think about it.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 04, 2007, 06:36:37 AM
pugetopolis Re: Movie Club
Quote  ..."We seem to be in the No Exit mode anyway right? "

« Reply #718



madupont   Re: Movie Club
« Reply #719 on: November 02, 2007, 12:02:00 PM » Quote 

"Let's face it, you wouldn't understand "No Exit" if it bit you in the heinie."

Lhoffman   Re: Movie Club          Reply #722 on: November 02, 2007, 12:52:36 PM » Quote 

"I've never seen Europa...but as to being bit in the heinie by Sartre..."

pugetopolis
Superhero Member

Posts: 1127

 Re: Movie Club
« Reply #736 

I've been called an Egomaniac, a Fag, a Transvestite, a Troll, a Pedophile and most recently a Heinie...

madupont               
Re: Movie Club
« Reply #728 on: CORRECTION              This is the actual quote of what I said.
        "Here it is  Big Boy, since you fell into this interest into what is Germane, "a heinie" is what we called the Bosch in the Second World War."

















 








 


 











 



 
           















Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 04, 2007, 11:41:15 PM
...not even the ascendancy of Dennis Kucinich could save going into the wild with...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0415965/


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: notrab on November 05, 2007, 12:51:26 PM
Cusack really nailed 1408, so I'm willing to take a chance on what looks like basically fluff.  Sister Joan is along for the ride, so you get the Cusacks doing comedy together, how bad could it be?  Don't answer that.  OK, I'll answer my own rhetorical question:  it could be K-PAX meets Little Miss Sunshine....someday the bear does eat YOU.  So, maybe, caution advised?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 06, 2007, 12:28:31 PM
Great Movie....Depression era Winnipeg, sibling rivalry, a most interesting musical competition, a philosophical treatment of art and the idea of happiness...and funny to boot. 



http://lookingcloser.org/movie%20reviews/Q-Z/saddestmusicintheworld.htm


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 06, 2007, 12:39:22 PM
Watched Grave of the Fireflies (Hotaru no haka) with the family the other night,

(http://www.wingsee.com/ghibli/fireflies/characters/seitaandsetsuko.jpg)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095327/

It really packs an emotional whallop, and brings humanity to wartime Japan through stunning animation.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 06, 2007, 12:44:42 PM
And the animation is beautiful.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 06, 2007, 07:52:05 PM
It has bugs like the Del Toro one:  Does that make it "magic realism"?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 06, 2007, 08:40:23 PM
It's anime by Takahata about a brother and sister whose mother is killed in WWII in Kobe.  The father is away in the war.  But the fireflies referred to in the title are caught by the siblings and used as light in their bombshelter. 

Not sure how animated magic realism would work.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 06, 2007, 08:54:50 PM
(http://img.gkblogger.com/blog/imgdb/000/000/128/015_1.gif)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 07, 2007, 12:35:13 AM
Of course, lights whether or not insects...?

see: Kwaidan(1964)  "...an almost fairy tale-like quality (the graveyard scenes in "Hoichi, the Earless"...)

""Hoichi the Earless" is also adapted from Lafcadio Hearn's Kwaidan (though it incorporates aspects of The Tale of the Heike that are merely referenced indirectly in Hearn's book). It depicts the folkloric tale of Hoichi the Earless, about a blind musician or biwa hoshi whose speciality is singing the The Tale of the Heike, about the Battle of Dan-no-ura, a war fought between Emperor Antoku and Minamoto no Yoritomo during the last phase of the Genpei War. Hoichi eventually finds himself singing to the ghosts of the very heroes that are the subject of his song.

"In a Cup of Tea" is adapted from Hearn's Kott?: Being Japanese Curios, with Sundry Cobwebs (1902).

Lafcadio Hearn (which is a Romany name, by the by) was a resident of New Orleans, journalist by trade, who became an expatriate writer in Japan "gone native", you might say.

I first read him when I was about age 14 and then gradually gravitated to New Orleans to get a grasp on this.

The point being that they don't really bring this up in the review of  Masaki Kobayashi's, Kwaidan, but the eerie lights that dart through the imperial cemetery when the boy musician wends his way there in the dark, for he is blind, and performs his honor song, are the sparks of fiery spirits who will in apparition embody  the sitting of the Imperial Court.

This is why Japanese children gather fireflies, the spirits of the dead. They put them in lanterns.  But it is not "magic realism"; it is Shinto-ism. It is the belief which involves the worship of kami, spirits; it is an "animistic" belief system.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 07, 2007, 12:44:30 AM
"Except for some ghostly fires — such as usually flitted there on dark nights — all was blackness in that direction. But the men at once hastened to the cemetery; and there, by the help of their lanterns, they discovered Hôïchi, ...",from --"The Story of Mimi-nashi-Hôïchi"
by
Lafcadio Hearn


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 07, 2007, 12:51:08 AM
http://www.criterion.com/asp/release.asp?id=90&eid=98&section=essay&page=1


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 07, 2007, 01:44:14 AM
The source for the movie is the book of the same title by Nosaka Akyuki.  He has said it is autobiographical and that he wrote it to help deal with the guilt he felt over his sister's death. 

The fireflies in the film are representative of the fragility of life.  Setsuko asks her brother, "Why do they die so young?"

Dzimas, I seem to recall that your daughter is in early elementary school.  How did she respond to the movie?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 07, 2007, 04:12:57 AM
My little daughter became enthralled in the movie, after some initial objections to the lack of action.  She took it pretty hard as Setsuko faded away.  Had a lot of questions afterward, which is what a good movie should inspire.  Of course, many of those questions were tough to handle, as six-year-olds have a pretty hard time dealing with death. 

I wasn't sure whether the action occurred after a nuclear bombing, given the devastation that took place, but it seemed like extensive bombing campaigns judging by the numerous air raids.  I didn't realize there had been such an effort by the US over Japan prior to Fat Boy and Little Man.  But, the film is clearly meant as a cautionary tale and succeeds to the point of tears.  It carries with it the full thrust of the devastating consequences of war.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 07, 2007, 10:50:39 AM
Dzimas....Nosaka Akyuki lived in Kobe, which was firebombed in March of 1945.  (If you have the 2-disk set, there is an interview on disk 2...runs five or six minutes.)  His sister starved as a result of the destruction of the city.  Fireflies is based on this event.  The movie does make a powerful statement. 

This is really quite unlike other anime I've seen.  But your comment on the slower pace is probably true of much anime (and Japanese movies, in general).  Even in the more violent stuff, the idea is an emphasis on story over action.  The why over the what.

(Howl's Moving Castle was put out by the same studio as Fireflies.  This one was done by Miyazaki who is the go-to guy.   The animation on this one is spectacular.  Quite the visual experience, although the story isn't as good as Fireflies...It explores duality of human nature, how no one is all good or all bad. 



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 07, 2007, 10:53:05 AM
Oh, and the other movie that comes to mind is Princess Mononoake, which addresses environmental issues.   Also quite beautiful to watch.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 07, 2007, 12:09:30 PM
We have Princess Mononoake and Spirited Away as well.  Spirited Away quite literally blew me away the first time I saw it.  Will explore the second disc on Fireflies.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 08, 2007, 12:42:08 PM
IMDB joke of the day:

"Nell" pleasanty.....

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0758053/

Whatever.

I see that "P2," you know, Parking on Level 2 so you can shoot the whole thing in a parking garage in about a month?  You open with the nice day at the office interiors, and bring it in under $15M, must be Lionsgate or the next pretender to the throne of cheap ways to make hundreds of millions ("Saw," etc.).


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 08, 2007, 06:37:36 PM
Dzimas,

http://www.tandempress.wisc.edu/tandem/news/lynchprints.htm


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 08, 2007, 07:39:21 PM
ThreePenny Opera on today's Fresh Air:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16113904



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 08, 2007, 07:41:20 PM
Anyone else seen the works of Guy Maddin?  Saddest Music in the World, Archangel, Twilight of the Ice Nymphs, Dracula?

Does some interesting things with color (and lack of), also seems to have recurring ideas about loss of limbs, vampirism, glass.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 09, 2007, 12:27:27 AM
(http://www.ebertfest.com/seven/saddest02a.jpg)

Isabella Rossellini (Lady Port-Huntly)

“So many movies travel the same weary roads. So few imagine entirely original worlds. Guy Maddin's "The Saddest Music in the World" (2004) exists in a time and place we have never seen before, although it claims to be set in Winnipeg in 1933. The city, we learn, has been chosen by the London Times, for the fourth year in a row, as "the world capital of sorrow." Here Lady Port-Huntly (Isabella Rossellini) has summoned entries for a contest which will award $25,000 "in Depression Era dollars" to the performer of the saddest music.”

http://www.ebertfest.com/seven/saddest_music_in_the_world.htm


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on November 09, 2007, 12:56:42 AM
Hi Hoffman, I heard that on NPR today and appreciated the reviewer's perspective (as well as hearing that "Pirate Jenny").  Haven't seen the Pabst movie, but having MacHeath end as a banker, wonderful!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 09, 2007, 01:02:35 AM
Winnipeg, World capital of sorrow....and the joke being that one of the main characters is Serbian and part of his great sorrow is that WWI was begun by a Serbian madman.  

One idea that seems apropos is that even our deepest emotions don't become real until they are validated by others...hence the whole talk-show business.  There is a line in the film that says something to the nature of "You've taken our most private sadness and turned it into a freak-show carnival."  

Also interesting to note what music each of the contestants chooses.  Some of the music selections seems almost campy, but there is something to the idea that music stirs the emotions.   But hearing or performing music associated with a particular event or time in our lives will inevitably always remind us of that event or time.  The song you were listening to when you first fell in love, the music played at a loved one's funeral...A lifetime can pass and the music still brings it all back.  (Maddin's use of "The Song is You")



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: nytempsperdu on November 09, 2007, 01:04:10 AM
Quote
We have Princess Mononoake and Spirited Away as well.  Spirited Away quite literally blew me away the first time I saw it.  Will explore the second disc on Fireflies.

Spirited Away is pretty heavy duty for a young'un--before it and Princess came along, my daughter enjoyed Kiki's Delivery Service and My Neighbor Totorro as yours might, as well.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 09, 2007, 01:09:25 AM
Hi Hoffman, I heard that on NPR today and appreciated the reviewer's perspective (as well as hearing that "Pirate Jenny").  Haven't seen the Pabst movie, but having MacHeath end as a banker, wonderful!

I always like that reviewer.  And he brought up the very small percentage of songs that Pabst kept from the live show.  I would have loved to be able to sit in on that discussion!

But I liked his interpretation of the "Pirate Jenny."  It's a difficult song and a difficult scene in the movie.  She sings it as she is betraying MacHeath....either as an explanation to him or a rationalization to herself.

Quote
Spirited Away is pretty heavy duty for a young'un--before it and Princess came along, my daughter enjoyed Kiki's Delivery Service and My Neighbor Totorro as yours might, as well.

You know, I have My Neighbor Totorro....no kids left at home, I just like Anime. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 09, 2007, 01:31:00 AM
Quote
Spirited Away is pretty heavy duty for a young'un

Our little daughter enjoyed Spirited Away very much.  It isn't as violent as most of the stuff she watches on Cartoon Network, and carries with it much more emotional impact.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 09, 2007, 02:25:26 AM
I hadn't been to a film festival in a long time, but since my wife and I were given an invitation to the opening of a Scandinavian film festival in honor of Ingmar Bergman, we had no excuses this time,

http://www.kino.lt/scanorama6/index.php?lang=en

We saw Tatt av kvinnen (Gone with the Women)

(http://www.tiff07.ca/images/films2007/704201741481344.jpg)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780621/

which indeed was great fun (and had some good sex scenes bottle) with Peter Stormare as a man wise in the ways of love.  When the young lover asked whether he should go on a vacation with his new girlfriend, he said no, better to build a new relationship by buying a new sofa.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 09, 2007, 02:33:56 AM
(http://www.ebertfest.com/seven/saddest02a.jpg)

Lovely Isabella!  Radiant as ever. Thanks, puget.  I will have to keep my eye out (or maybe I should say leg out) for the movie. They had Blue Velvet on Lithuanian TV last night.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 09, 2007, 03:35:51 AM

Hi Hoffman, I heard that on NPR today and appreciated the reviewer's perspective (as well as hearing that "Pirate Jenny").  Haven't seen the Pabst movie, but having MacHeath end as a banker, wonderful!

I always like that reviewer.  And he brought up the very small percentage of songs that Pabst kept from the live show.  I would have loved to be able to sit in on that discussion!

But I liked his interpretation of the "Pirate Jenny."  It's a difficult song and a difficult scene in the movie.  She sings it as she is betraying MacHeath....either as an explanation to him or a rationalization to herself.




"With Lenya, you feel an obligation to honor who she was," Murphy says. "But from the beginning, Hal said to me that he wasn't looking for a reproduction or an imitation; he was looking for an essence." NPR

I noticed the essence, earlier today.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?storyID=9416&p=5

"In 1985 she performed "Ballad of the Soldier's Wife" on Hal Willner's tribute album Lost in the Stars: The Music of Kurt Weill. Faithfull's restrained readings lent themselves to the material, and this collaboration informed several subsequent works."

(daughter of: "Baroness Eva Erisso, originally from Vienna, with noble roots from the Habsburg Dynasty. Eva was a ballerina during her early years and worked with the German theatrical duo Bertolt Brecht and Kurt Weill."

"As her fascination with the music of Weimar-era Germany continued, she released a recording of The Seven Deadly Sins and performed in The Threepenny Opera. Her interpretation of the music of this era has been critically acclaimed and led to a new album, Twentieth Century Blues, which focused on the music of Kurt Weill and Bertolt Brecht, and a successful concert and cabaret tour."

"In 1993, she played the role of Pirate Jenny in The Threepenny Opera at the Gate Theatre in Dublin. Later she performed The Seven Deadly Sins with the Vienna Radio Symphony."

The last time that I saw her was in the film by Patrice Chereau,Intimacy (by Hanif Kureishi) only I didn't see her as she was virtually unrecognizable to me.  Since then she has put on a great deal of weight but it may be the medication for Hepatitis C which has caused that.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 09, 2007, 11:43:06 AM
"...and had some good sex scenes bottle...with Peter Stormare as a man wise in the ways of love.  When the young lover asked whether he should go on a vacation with his new girlfriend, he said no, better to build a new relationship by buying a new sofa...."

No, you really have to go on a road trip, I mean, buying a sofa in lieu of a romantic or party gettaway seems too suffused with ennui and Old World melancholy to qualify.....even "Morvern Callar," despite hitting most of the right notes a Spring Break movie should have, road trip, drugs, alcohol abuse, nudity by the pool, and hotelsex; even so I was left a little cold by the endeavour.  I felt kind of bad, because it was kind of "nice try, Europe," maybe go less sad and add some driving rock tunes to the mix, a geek/hot girl get to know each other montage set to "Jackie Blue," some amusing and colorful characters such as a burnout associate and two really preppy enemies who have no trouble getting snobby girls.  You may want to save the quaint family-run resort from being sold to evil developers by throwing a huge party or by scheming up some money making plan that is so crazy that it just might work.  I'm a little gunshy about Europe's success with the genre, but thanks for the recommendation.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 09, 2007, 12:37:23 PM
Pugetopolis..."...and there it is big as life, the genie-soul of the place which, wherever you go, you must meet and master first thing or be met and mastered...."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 10, 2007, 01:17:10 AM
Is that from "Karate Kid" or something?  Awesome.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: barton on November 10, 2007, 11:40:20 AM
LMAO.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 10, 2007, 12:01:36 PM
absolutement


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 10, 2007, 01:51:27 PM
(http://www.ebertfest.com/seven/saddest06a.jpg)

The Saddest Music in the World (2004)

“Serbia v. Scotland”

[A tardy Gavillo the Great finally appears on the stage to face the impatient audience.]

[Audience boos.]

Contest announcer: “We’ve heard much talk about his plaintive cello which has drawn enough moisture from hardened old-world eyes to fill the English Channel…”

[Audience grows silent.]

Gavillo the Great: “Now what is that stink?!!!! Is this a hog barn or a concert hall?!!!!”

[Gavillo plays cello.]

[Buzzer.]

[Audience boos.]

Contest announcer: “And now a word from Lady Port-Huntley Beer!!!




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 10, 2007, 02:28:51 PM
(http://www.taliapura.com/tap/images/photographs/saddestmusic_l.jpg)
Talia Pura as Mary, the announcer
of the saddest music contest, along
with co-announcer, Claude Dorge.


The Saddest Music in the World (2004)

[buzzer]

Claude Dorge, contest co-announcer: “ And now Fellow Pigs…
A word from Lady Port-Huntley Beer!!!”

[Audience boos, oinks, raises their glasses.]

“Get up!!!
Get your boots on!!!
Hurry up, Hurry up!!!
Times a wastin’!!!
If you’re not tastin’!!!
Lady Port-Huntley Beer!!!

Can’t wait to drink!!!
One down, two down!!!
Three down oink!!!
C’mon time’s a wastin’!!!
If you’re not tastin’!!!
Lady Port-Huntley Beer!!!




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Urethra_Franklin on November 10, 2007, 03:26:00 PM
What the fuck?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 10, 2007, 03:39:29 PM
(http://dannymiller.typepad.com/blog/images/saddest_dvd_1.jpg)

"I watched a DVD the other day that instantly skyrocketed to my list of 10 all-time favorite films. It’s called “The Saddest Music in the World” and stars Isabella Rossellini as a crazed, double amputee (yes, you heard me) beer baronness named Lady Port-Huntley, Mark McKinney (of “Kids in the Hall” fame) as washed up Broadway producer Chester Kent, and Portuguese actress Maria de Medeiros as his amnesiac girlfriend Narcissa. The story takes place in 1933 in desolate, freezing Winnipeg, Canada, and it’s the most original, demented plot I’ve seen in decades, as Rossellini starts a contest to see which country can produce the world’s saddest music. She’s offering a $25,000 prize which, at the height of the Depression, attracts hordes of contestants, each one wailing a tune more miserable than the next. The film came out last year but the cinematography is absolutely brilliant in the way it evokes the sparkling black and white of the early 30s. Canadian Guy Maddin is my new favorite director and the DVD comes with several of his equally unique shorts. RUN to get this film! In a pivotal scene, Isabella is announcing her contest on the radio, and looking straight in the camera, she slowly and seriously utters the following line in her unique Swedish/Italian accent: “If you’re sad…and like beer…I’m your lady!”

http://dannymiller.typepad.com/blog/2005/01/queen_isabella.html





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 10, 2007, 03:58:47 PM
The commentary on each act is almost as good as the idea for the movie.  For example, when the Siamese flute player takes the stage, "No one can beat the Siamese when it comes to dignity, cats, or twins." 


But for true sadness, it's hard to beat the image of Gavrillo's son's heart preserved in a brine of his tears.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 10, 2007, 04:58:28 PM
(http://www.news.uiuc.edu/WebsandThumbs/Ebertfest/saddest02_b.jpg)

Chester Kent: "Sadness is just happiness turned on its ass."

So many good "one-liners" and campy off-the-cuff asides...

I put the sub-titles on to catch them they're so fast...

TSSITW can be a depressing Great Depression melodrama...

even with its satire and gallows-humor.

Different than Carnivàle (2003) in many ways...

Perhaps a more sophisticated euro-magic realism?

I wonder what sense of humor will be with us when...

the so-called New Depression much-discussed on the Internet

comes down with the stock market, dollar-collapse, housing market and

derivatives crash and all the other doomsday stuff on the blogs?

Personally, I plan to join a traveling carnival as the Penguin Boy.

Or maybe the Bearded Lady?
  :) :) :)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 10, 2007, 07:24:08 PM
Which is more absurd?  The countess's beer glass legs or the victory slide?  Who could think of these things?

But did you notice the scenes where Maddin uses color?  It's almost as if he wants to bring death out of the ordinary realm of sadness by giving it an extra dimension.


I think if I were to join a Carnival I'd have to be Chick.  Powers that rise to the level of the super-hero cloaked in the respectability of  "normal." 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 10, 2007, 07:45:12 PM

Which is more absurd?  The countess's beer glass legs or the victory slide?  Who could think of these things?


Village Voice

Sad Songs Say So Much
Prosthetics and Process: A Shooting Journal
by Guy Maddin
May 7 - 13, 2003

"DAY FOUR Jody says we have to suck it up and film Isabella ourselves, just like other film crews do. I know I'll thank him for this edict someday, but I sure didn't like his bossy tone this morning. Eventually, we warmed to the day's work, mostly because we were wondering how to amputate Isabella's legs on film. Eschewing digital effects as grotesque artifacts of the present, we had all sorts of Méliès-era tricks up our sleeves, but no one knew how they would turn out. Eventually, in a way I cannot under my producer's gag order reveal, we removed her gams and replaced them with beer-filled, glass prosthetics, as per the script. Remembering that her famous father, Roberto, used to direct inexperienced actors by tying string to their toes and tugging whenever it was their turn to speak, I had Larry and Speedy tie a little fishing line to Isabella's glass toe. I felt this filament somehow tethered me across time and through his daughter to the father of neorealism. I was instantly pebbled with goose bumps. I delighted in pulling at this thing to make her kick at me over and over while Luc filmed. I guess I did it too much, though, because soon the beer in the long glass legs started churning up and spilled up a yeasty froth over her garters and into her lap. Speedy daubed away at the extraneous head, according to him one of the worst cases he'd ever seen. Why does directing make me despair so much!!!"

http://www.villagevoice.com/film/0319,maddin,43873,20.html


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 10, 2007, 08:18:20 PM
(http://www.ebertfest.com/seven/saddest02a.jpg)
Lovely Isabella!  Radiant as ever. Thanks, puget.  I will have to keep my eye out (or maybe I should say leg out) for the movie. They had Blue Velvet on Lithuanian TV last night.

Village Voice

Velvet Underworld
David Lynch's traumatizing neo-noir masterpiece turns 20
by Guy Maddin
February 28th, 2006 12:47 PM

"The last real earthquake to hit cinema was David Lynch's Blue Velvet —I'm sure directors throughout the film world felt the earth move beneath their feet and couldn't sleep the night of their first encounter with it back in 1986—and screens trembled again and again with diminishing aftershocks over the next decade as these picture makers attempted to mount their own exhilarating psychic cataclysms. But no one could quite match the traumatizing combination of horrific, comedic, aural, and subliminal effects Lynch rumbled out in this masterpiece—not even Lynch himself in the fun-filled years that followed before he recombined with himself to invent The Straight Story and Mulholland Drive."

http://www.villagevoice.com/film/0609,maddin,72351,20.html




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 10, 2007, 09:09:52 PM
(http://www.culture-cafe.net/album/les_bandeaux_de_culture_cafe/blue_velvet.3.jpg)

Village Voice

Velvet Underworld
David Lynch's traumatizing neo-noir masterpiece turns 20
by Guy Maddin
February 28th, 2006 12:47 PM

"But perhaps it is Isabella Rossellini's femme fatale Dorothy Vallens that is Blue Velvet's greatest gift to posterity. Director and neophyte actress collaborated to retool the old genre's often stock figure, to deglamorize and humiliate the supermodel, to knead her pulpy nakedness into a bruise-colored odalisque of inseminated sensualities and untrusting ferocity. There is something sharply porno-entomological, something of the implacable godless terror with which insects mate and devour, and something terrifyingly true, in the bearing of this bravely performed character. Nuns at Rossellini's old high school in Rome held a series of special masses for her redemption after the release of this film—still a hilarious, red-hot poker to the brain after 20 years. A new print has been struck for the special anniversary two-week run at Film Forum."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 11, 2007, 01:25:47 AM
(http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/ifc_films/the_saddest_music_in_the_world/guy_maddin/music.jpg)
Guy Maddin

Village Voice

Sad Songs Say So Much
Prosthetics and Process: A Shooting Journal
by Guy Maddin
May 7 - 13, 2003

DAY FOUR For years, I've been meaning to put into practice my Anatomy of Melancholy approach to directing. And now I finally get to! Having already copied out on index cards various descriptions of depression gleaned from Burton's ancient tomes, as well as some 40 synonyms for sadness culled from a thesaurus, I now start each day by dealing out all 52 cards, face down, on the breakfast table full of actors who are to work that day. Each performer has a different, sometimes fuzzy idea of a word's meaning—for instance, lugubrious or throboxyc, which is sadder? Actors love restrictions, and why not restrict them in the only fair way possible: with a lottery windfall of commands drawn randomly from a reference book?

The results have been sensational. The trite and the clichéd don't stand a chance under such an acting system. Dialogue clunks from one line to the next with a fragile-X clumsiness, scenes unfold with a Ritalin-thirsty zing! Most importantly, the work done is in the same tenor as my planned super-primitive rip-and-paste editing style. I want to unlearn how to watch movies; I want to flip dyslexically the images of my film to jangle their readability for the viewers; I want to re-create the thrill I felt as a boy when I finally recognized three words in a row!

http://www.villagevoice.com/film/0319,maddin,43873,20.html


____

Madden writes well; differently than Lynch. A different sense of humor. The way he plays with language, e.g. lugubrious & throboxyc as variations on the movie's theme-word 'sadness' is interesting...as well as the song lyrics etc. Of course, the bottom line is seeing the movie...a couple of times to catch the quick dialog...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 11, 2007, 12:01:07 PM
Is there still a word such as "throboxyc?  But, two things:  First, here is a short piece from the Burton.  I'm thinking about Maddin working on TSMITW with this somewhere in the back of his head.

When I go musing all alone
        Thinking of divers things fore-known.
        When I build castles in the air,
        Void of sorrow and void of fear,
        Pleasing myself with phantasms sweet,
        Methinks the time runs very fleet.
          All my joys to this are folly,
          Naught so sweet as melancholy.
        When I lie waking all alone,
        Recounting what I have ill done,
        My thoughts on me then tyrannise,
        Fear and sorrow me surprise,
        Whether I tarry still or go,
        Methinks the time moves very slow.
          All my griefs to this are jolly,
          Naught so mad as melancholy.
        When to myself I act and smile,
        With pleasing thoughts the time beguile,
        By a brook side or wood so green,
        Unheard, unsought for, or unseen,
        A thousand pleasures do me bless,
        And crown my soul with happiness.
          All my joys besides are folly,
          None so sweet as melancholy.
        When I lie, sit, or walk alone,
        I sigh, I grieve, making great moan,
        In a dark grove, or irksome den,
        With discontents and Furies then,
        A thousand miseries at once
        Mine heavy heart and soul ensconce,
          All my griefs to this are jolly,
          None so sour as melancholy.
        Methinks I hear, methinks I see,
        Sweet music, wondrous melody,
        Towns, palaces, and cities fine;
        Here now, then there; the world is mine,
        Rare beauties, gallant ladies shine,
        Whate'er is lovely or divine.
          All other joys to this are folly,
          None so sweet as melancholy.
        Methinks I hear, methinks I see
        Ghosts, goblins, fiends; my phantasy
        Presents a thousand ugly shapes,
        Headless bears, black men, and apes,
        Doleful outcries, and fearful sights,
        My sad and dismal soul affrights.
          All my griefs to this are jolly,
          None so damn'd as melancholy.
        Methinks I court, methinks I kiss,
        Methinks I now embrace my mistress.
        O blessed days, O sweet content,
        In Paradise my time is spent.
        Such thoughts may still my fancy move,
        So may I ever be in love.
          All my joys to this are folly,
          Naught so sweet as melancholy.
        When I recount love's many frights,
        My sighs and tears, my waking nights,
        My jealous fits; O mine hard fate
        I now repent, but 'tis too late.
        No torment is so bad as love,
        So bitter to my soul can prove.
          All my griefs to this are jolly,
          Naught so harsh as melancholy.
        Friends and companions get you gone,
        'Tis my desire to be alone;
        Ne'er well but when my thoughts and I
        Do domineer in privacy.
        No Gem, no treasure like to this,
        'Tis my delight, my crown, my bliss.
          All my joys to this are folly,
          Naught so sweet as melancholy.
        'Tis my sole plague to be alone,
        I am a beast, a monster grown,
        I will no light nor company,
        I find it now my misery.
        The scene is turn'd, my joys are gone,
        Fear, discontent, and sorrows come.
          All my griefs to this are jolly,
          Naught so fierce as melancholy.
        I'll not change life with any king,
        I ravisht am: can the world bring
        More joy, than still to laugh and smile,
        In pleasant toys time to beguile?
        Do not, O do not trouble me,
        So sweet content I feel and see.
          All my joys to this are folly,
          None so divine as melancholy.
        I'll change my state with any wretch,
        Thou canst from gaol or dunghill fetch;
        My pain's past cure, another hell,
        I may not in this torment dwell!
        Now desperate I hate my life,
        Lend me a halter or a knife;
          All my griefs to this are jolly,
          Naught so damn'd as melancholy.


Second:  I've been revisiting West's "Miss LonelyHearts."  Quite interesting in light of TSMITW.  Same premise...the hopelessness of the depression.  What to do?  Where is salvation?  Both find their answer in the grotesque.

"If you're sad and like beer, I'm your lady....."


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 11, 2007, 12:25:03 PM
lhoffman

Quite certainly a lot of Jewish writers like West saw things that way during the Depression both here --and abroad; it was a noted style. Even if he came from that Upper West Side of New York, which I've mentioned before, his move downtown to 23rd, so he could hang with  people like Dasheill Hammett,Lillian Hellman(a couple of writers to whom he gave free rent and meals),and visitors James T. Farrell (from Chicago), or Willam Carlos Williams popping over from New Jersey.

Some of us oldsters read the European equivalents of this writing style over at the old stomping grounds probably ahead of your time but it is a shame Geezer Granddad didn't post again after first showing up here and asking if bodhipoet was around. GG first turned me on to Bruno Schulz,The Street of Crocodiles, although I'd heard of it.  At least I think it was geezergranddad whom I used to get confused with whiskeypriest because then I was a newbie back in the days after the fall of the Twin Towers.

Why back then, I was still coming to terms with Lillian that other Jewish writer, from New Orleans however, An Unfinished Woman.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 11, 2007, 09:24:38 PM
What on earth are you people talking about?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 11, 2007, 11:58:03 PM
Is there still a word such as "throboxyc? 

What does Madden mean when he uses the word "throboxyc" in the following sentence:

"Each performer has a different, sometimes fuzzy idea of a word's meaning—for instance, lugubrious or throboxyc, which is sadder?"

IMHO Madden is setting the upper limit of 'sad' with a fuzzy nonexistent word whose meaning is left up to the actor to interpret. Madden mentions this approach in his Village Voice "Shooting Journal Notes." This method he humorously calls his "Anatomy of Melancholy" approach to directing (See above).

Madden, Pabst, Lynch, del Toro, Lang... they all seem to try out little directing tricks in various films don't they?


 8) 8) 8)





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 12, 2007, 12:04:21 PM
http://internationalrooms.blogspot.com/2007/05/guy-maddin.html


http://thedizzies.blogspot.com/search?q=throboxyc


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 12, 2007, 02:18:46 PM
Pugetopolis...There is something saddest-music-in-the-worldish to be found in the image of Maddin struggling to plant an elm tree in the permafrost..."no amount of work with pick and shovel could so much as chip the soil. I called for the art department to arrive with blowtorches and chisels, which eventually loosened the soil but also charred the roots of the slender, slumbering treelet. We tried tree after tree in this fashion, but always burning, hacking, or snapping them off short."

He wants the elm tree as a remembrance as the contestants in the film want their music to serve as remembrance.  But instead of developing into certain stately tribute the whole thing devolves into the grotesque.



   


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Urethra_Franklin on November 12, 2007, 02:21:09 PM
What on earth are you people talking about?


It appears that Lhoffman and pugetopolis (calpurnpiso?) are cybering.........


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 12, 2007, 03:25:58 PM
Speaking of Grotesque

How did you start working with Isabella Rossellini?

“I met her once in Central Park, actually—and I'm not a very forward person, especially with celebrities. But, we're both dog lovers, as it turns out, and just as she was coming towards me, she stopped to pet a Labrador Retriever, and started a conversation with its owner. And I thought, that Lab's cute enough, I'll use that as an excuse, so I started petting it too. I looked down, and she was basically ignoring me, but she had allowed the dog to hold her hand in its mouth, and I thought, aw, I'll put my hand in the dog's mouth too. And pretty soon both of our hands were in this big drooling dog tongue, in intertwinement. Very slippery. Before we knew it, the dog and its owner were gone, and we were left with our hands hanging in the air, dog spit dripping off. By that time I had worked up the confidence to tell her I knew her ex-husband a bit, or that I didn't really know him, but that he bought one of my films for his archives, "Tales from the Gimli Hospital," and that I was a filmmaker making a film, and that I had a part screaming to be played by her, an amputee beer baroness.”

http://thedizzies.blogspot.com/2007/05/brain-food.html




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 12, 2007, 03:27:22 PM
More Notes on the Grotesque

 “…and the glamorous Isabella Rossellini, who's had to deal with the loss of her legs. (I wonder if the fact that Rossellini lost her legs in a car accident caused by her performing fellatio is a nod to the Myth of Murnau.)” http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0366996/

This brief but charming imdb note has to do with the tragic-comic death of the esteemed German director F. W. Murnau—famous for his films Nosferatu, The Last Laugh, Faust, Tabu: A Story of the South Seas…

“Murnau did not live to see the premiere of his last film; he died in an automobile accident in Santa Barbara, California on March 11, 1931. The car was driven by Murnau's fourteen-year old Filipino valet Garcia Stevenson. Murnau was entombed in Berlin. Robert Flaherty, Emil Jannings and Greta Garbo attended the funeral, and Fritz Lang delivered the funeral speech.” http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0003638/bio

This brief but polite note refers to the fact that Murnau was performing fellatio on the young handsome Filipino valet while they were driving a big Packard convertible along the Pacific Ocean. The young man must have lost it—since the car went over a cliff taking them all to their death. What a way to go—having an orgasm and giving head. Now is that grotesque—or what?




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 12, 2007, 04:33:35 PM
(http://www.kinoforum.org.br/images/filmes/547.jpg)

Sissy Boy Slap Party (1995)

“You all better go back to the gym, you're gaining weight. I gotta go to the shop and buy some condoms. And remember: NO SLAPPING!”—Male Bordello Madame

This little gem of a film has got to be a rare treat for all sick cineastes into the grotesque world of Guy Madden. This musical mantra is a nice little “extra” included in the lovely The Saddest Music in the World dvd.

“Musical mantra derived from machine-gun micro-montage.”
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0234740/

It’s the brief sordid story of a male bordello full of young handsome lollygagging bored nude sailors, hustlers, male prostitutes and other assorted sick grotesque queer riffraff. When the Sugar Daddy or “Male Madame” goes out to buy condoms for the boyz—he warns his gathered young men that he wants no “slapping” while he is away. Of course, this warning lasts fewer than 10 seconds after he has stepped out of the door and quickly the group are insanely homoerotically shockingly “slapping” each other all over and loving every minute of it.

 It’s all very campy and full of mock-SM sexuality. The various and sundry looks of shock and then pleasure on the faces of the slappers and slapped is either grotesque in the eyes of the ogling moviegoer—or it’s seen as pure unadulterated gutter camp by those gay cineastes who have a sick sense of humor (surely not me?)…

A handsome nude bored African-American beats incessantly on a calypso oil drum—driving the mad orgy to heights of shameless Sodom and Miss G strenuous Slappetteville depths of depravity—or heights of exquisite male kitsch—depending on the degree of ogling abnormality of the Moviegoer’s bloodshot Eyeball.

The test of just how grotesque this faggy micro-montage gets depends, I suppose, on whether one has struggled thru The Saddest Music in the World or not. The grotesque isn’t everybody’s cup of tea—The Saddest Music may be too depressing for some vanilla moviegoers. If that’s the case, well, I doubt if they’ll ever get to see this truly camp classic Sissy Boy Slap Party…

On the other hand this little gem may remind some movie bloggers of all the Fun we have discussing films here in our two lovely little movie forums. Slap!!! Slap!!! Slap!!! We certainly do have lots of fun Slap Parties don’t we, my dear fellow moviegoers?

As long as it doesn’t end up in a rude Canadian brawl with everybody drunk on Lady Helen Port-Huntley booze—it’s okay with me. Viva la Winnipeg, my dears!!!!!!


P.S. Sissy Boy Slap Party was included in a TV series episode entitled “The Hours and Times/Sissy Boy Slap Party/Dottie Gets Spanked” in John Waters Presents Movies That Will Corrupt You (2006) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0497299/


(http://www.filmmakermagazine.com/blog/sissy-boy-slap-party.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 12, 2007, 05:16:34 PM
1.
Bryher, H.D., and Macpherson formed the film magazine Close Up, and the POOL cinema group. Only one POOL film, Borderline (1930), starring H.D. and Paul Robeson, survives in its entirety. In common with the Borderline novellas, it explores extreme psychic states and their relationship to surface reality. Bryher herself plays an innkeeper.

Bryher's most notable non-fiction work was Film Problems of Soviet Russia (1929). In Close up she compared Hollywood unfavorably with Soviet filmmaking, arguing that the studio system had "lowered the standards" of cinema. Her writings also helped to bring Sergei Eisenstein to the attention of the British public.

2.
Robert McAlmon
a)
One of his most important and best-received works is Village: As It Happened Through a Fifteen Year Period (1924) which presents a bleak portrait of an American town. The book shows his love for Eugene Vidal (Eugene Collins in the book), Gore Vidal's father, with whom he grew up in Madison, South Dakota, which is documented in Gore Vidal's mid-90s memoir, Palimpsest.
b)
Responsible for publishing Nathanael West


3.
Richard Aldington     M:HD

4.
T. E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia: A Biographical Inquiry, 1955). His biography of Lawrence made many controversial assertions now acknowledged to be true (being among the first to advance the theory of Lawrence's homosexuality, widely considered to be a fact), but its iconoclastic nature was a blow to his own popularity in England, from which his reputation has never fully recovered.








Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 12, 2007, 07:30:23 PM
(http://www.ifctv.com/ifc/img/05072007_branduponthebrain_maddin.jpg)

Guy Maddin on "Brand Upon the Brain!"

By R. Emmet Sweeney
IFC News

Guy Maddin's latest — silent — celluloid concoction can only be called an event. Already a hit on the festival circuit, "Brand Upon the Brain!" will descend upon theaters in Chicago, New York and Los Angeles in the coming months, escorted by an orchestra, a foley crew and a live (celebrity!) narrator. It's another delirious genre mash-up from the Canadian filmmaker, one that tells the sordid tale of one "Guy Maddin," a child raised in a lighthouse orphanage by his psychotically protective mother and catatonic father.

Sweeney: How did your association start with the Seattle-based The Film Company, the production company for the project?

Madden: I got a call in the middle of the night, like one of Josef Stalin's henchman calling and saying "We want you!" — but what they were calling about was something pretty wonderful. As it turns out, The Film Company is a kind of crazy, quixotic, utopian not-for-profit, the only not-for profit film studio in the world as far as anyone knows. They have this weird little manifesto whereby they refuse to accept submissions and scripts from other filmmakers, they just approach them with the green light already flashing. You have been approved to film your project, the only condition is the project can't exist yet, you have to start thinking about it the minute you accept the invitation. They can detect if a script's been sitting around in a drawer for a while, if it's got other producers' breath on it. As it turns out, I didn't have anything kicking around, so I had to create something specifically for them. They said they'd supply everything, so I didn't even ask what the budget was.

Sweeney: Did they give you a deadline?

Madden: I'm an impulsive decision maker with everything, but especially when I'm on set. If things feel right, they feel right within the first couple of seconds. The more I have a chance to think about things, the more hesitant, the more cowardly, everything becomes. They told me I'd be shooting in a month. And that meant since I work in a highly artificial manner which requires sets and props, I had to get a script in shape soon, immediately. Luckily I had a plane ride to Paris, a long plane ride, to daydream. I remember reading a New Yorker article about the teen detective genre and its origins. The origin of the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew.

I decided to make this movie as much of an autobiography as possible, but I needed some sort of fictional construct for it. I decided very quickly that my childhood would be the subject, specifically this central episode of my childhood where my mother and sister were conducting a vicious war over the speed with which my sister was growing pubic hairs. I thought that turning one of the main characters into a teen detective might just be the MacGuffin that Hitchcock always used. He'd always inject something that's not quite true into something to make everything more true. Then it was a matter of things falling into place during that plane ride, and then as soon as I landed I went to my distributors in Paris and e-mailed my treatment to the Seattle people and they started building sets.

http://www.ifctv.com/news/article?aId=19651


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 12, 2007, 08:21:18 PM

Guy Maddin - Sissy Boy Slap Party Director's Cut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldFWvHa4Svg


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 12, 2007, 11:54:45 PM
Pugetopolis...boys will be boys.  I was hoping to find Maddin's Heart of the World.  A six-minute short which seems an encapsulation of Maddin's themes.  He does seem fixated on the idea of sibling rivalry and brothers in love with the same woman.

Don't know if you've seen Archangel, but there are many similarities to Saddest Music.  The story takes place in a Russian town that is so out of the way they don't understand that WWI has ended.  The main character, Boles, has lost a leg in the war.  The house where he is billeted just happens to have a spare.  This also has an amnesiac character, and he and Boles compete for a woman both believe they are married to.   There is also the sibling conflict in that two sisters are interested in Boles.


But here is a trailer for Brand Upon the Brain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVl5Bnj_EO8

On the Saddest Music, what is it that evokes a feeling of sadness (or any emotion) when listening to a particular piece of music?  Life experience or the music's composition? 

By the way, that story about Maddin/Rosselini in Central Park is about the funniest thing I've heard. 



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 13, 2007, 10:42:29 AM

On the Saddest Music, what is it that evokes a feeling of sadness (or any emotion) when listening to a particular piece of music?  Life experience or the music's composition? 


What is it that makes the Kronos/Glass/Dracula string quartet soundtrack so eerie and scary? I don't know...

To paraphrase that Supreme Court Justice struggling to define pornography... I don't know what it is but I know it when I hear it...


 8) 8) 8)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 13, 2007, 06:18:29 PM
Kronos/Glass....I wonder if it would have been as scary if you hadn't known what it was the first time your heard it.  The thing about music is that it impresses itself on the brain into other functions.  If the first time you hear Glass's Dracula you are watching Dracula, it will always remind of you that movie. 






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 13, 2007, 07:28:55 PM
Pugetopolis...Here is an example of what I mean (an incident that I thought of while watching the movie).   One of my grandfathers died when I was six years old.  At the funeral, there were these two ladies from his church who sang "We'll Understand It All By and By."  At six, I  could play the piano pretty well by ear, I knew what music sounded like and I understood that these ladies were terrible singers.  Sitting in the funeral, listening to these ladies attempt to sing this song (meant to give reassurance to mourners),  I was overcome by an uncontrollable urge to laugh.  I looked over at my mother (this was her father) and discovered that she was also apparently overcome by the same urge.   

So here it is some many years later and as I watch The Saddest Music in the World, the song that rushes into my head is "We'll Understand It All By and By".  And along with that song, comes the image of my mother and I sharing a secret joke in a very sad moment.  To this day, I can't hear that song without being overwhelmed by the urge to laugh.

Is the song sad?  It's certainly related to grief.  But for me, it brings a sort of joy, because even though it's totally inappropriate, nothing feels better than to laugh in the midst of grief. 

Winnipeg is voted the saddest country in the world during a very sad time, and the winners of the Saddest Music contest take a celebratory slide into a vat of beer.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 14, 2007, 05:40:59 AM
Quote from: pugetopolis link=topic=190.msg46427#msg46427 date=1194916878[color=blue
[/color]

Guy Maddin - Sissy Boy Slap Party Director's Cut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldFWvHa4Svg


Now that you've mentioned it....

Almost a shame that you have, when I think about it.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 14, 2007, 06:02:07 AM


On the Saddest Music, what is it that evokes a feeling of sadness (or any emotion) when listening to a particular piece of music?  Life experience or the music's composition? 


What is it that makes the Kronos/Glass/Dracula string quartet soundtrack so eerie and scary? I don't know...

To paraphrase that Supreme Court Justice struggling to define pornography... I don't know what it is but I know it when I hear it...


 8) 8) 8)





I saw the Maddin or maddening version of Dracula, probably done on IFC, it was campy,I know it when I see it.  What was probably not obvious to Maddin was that the dancer in the lead role although attractive to him would not possibly motivate a second glance from the person cast opposite. So much for the fear factor.   I turned it off, it was the least of the Dracula films ever made. By comparison, Frank Langella's performance is up near the top but of course surpassed by Gary Oldman for FFCoppola; depending of course how romantic you want to be. Langella was true to form more dramatic.

Madden's "E---za--bell--aahh" however found Oldman quite satisfactory, with the Beethoven factor; which is of course what made the putative meeting in the
park between dog lovers supremely amusing. I write-off self-proclaiming artistes on the merits of their self-promotion. Actual critical acclaim might do a lot more in the affirmative for the long run.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 14, 2007, 10:44:01 AM
Maddin's Dracula (Pages from a Virgin's Diary)...."camp"....I don't see this.  Royal Winnipeg Opera, Gustave Mahler.  There are a few moments in the movie that are over the top, but in general it is quite melodramatic and true to the Bram Stoker novel.  (There are also echos of the early Belo Lugosi film.)

According to the linernotes, Maddin based his film on the Mark Godden Dracula that had been touring for three years.  Godden worked directly with Maddin to produce a version of Dracula would emphasize his (Godden's) vision of the ballet as  violent and chaotic.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 14, 2007, 11:55:52 AM
It certainly was.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 14, 2007, 01:02:31 PM

(http://www.kinoforum.org.br/images/filmes/547.jpg)

Sissy Boy Slap Party (1995)

On the other hand this little gem may remind some movie bloggers of all the Fun we have discussing films here in our two lovely little movie forums. Slap!!! Slap!!! Slap!!! We certainly do have lots of fun Slap Parties don’t we, my dear fellow moviegoers?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 14, 2007, 01:22:47 PM
(http://www.sfpalm.org/events/individual%20events/dracula.jpg)

“No man knows ‘till he does it,
what it’s like to feel his blood drawn
away into the woman he loves!!!”

Guy Maddin—Dracula: Pages From a Virgin's Diary (2002) clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg_hoHIJ3PQ


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 14, 2007, 05:23:23 PM
As usual I went for the Rotten Tomatoes

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/dracula_pages_from_a_virgins_diary/

"...vision of the ballet as  violent and chaotic." lhoffman

My reply: "It certainly was."

Take a look at 6th down the middle  column.

Try another: 7th on the left; how about 10.

Here's a sample: from 2nd page 4th.right down

Movie Review
Dracula: Pages From a Virgin's Diary (2003)

--
C
Critics' Grades and Average EW.com Readers Chicago Sun-Times N.Y. Daily News Philadelphia Inquirer USA Today Variety Boston Globe EW Critics' Average
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- C C


BLOOD LOSS ''Pages''' Cindy Marie Small has a cross to bear
Credits
Limited Release: May 14, 2003; Rated: Unrated; Length: 75 Minutes; Genres: Horror, Musical; With: Tara Birtwhistle and Zhang Wei-Qiang

C
By Owen Gleiberman

Owen Gleiberman
Owen Gleiberman is a film critic for EW
The Canadian filmmaker guy Maddin is a modern rhapsodist of the silent-movie age. He's hardly the first director to use irises, grainy film stocks, or flickering blooms of light and shadow to evoke the era before sound. What sets Maddin apart is his devotion to the primitive Victorian intensity of performers who had to rely on their faces as their only instruments of communication. In a short film like ''Heart of the World,'' his justly celebrated homage to love, acrobats, and the grandeur of early Soviet idealism, Maddin's technique found its perfect form.

In Dracula: Pages From a Virgin's Diary, however, the very pull of Maddin's aesthetic has a paradoxical effect. He seduces us with his facsimile of the herky-jerky gothic style of ''Nosferatu'' and the nearly silent ''Vampyr'' -- movies in which the mystery of the late 19th century looms up, vampirically, before us. But you realize it's all a big tease the moment it emerges that Maddin has draped these gorgeous atmospherics around...a ballet film. He collaborated with the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, whose stage version of ''Dracula'' appears to be marvelously inventive. I say appears, because we can't quite see it. Maddin chops it up into a feature-length antique-bloodsucker video, and the result takes hold neither as dance nor as silent horror dream.

Posted May 14, 2003


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 14, 2007, 07:37:49 PM
Rotton Tomatoes....all those reviewers there and I'm sure you can find some that will agree with you.  But I don't think I give much of a hoot for a reviewer who confuses a musical with a ballet.

Quote
BLOOD LOSS ''Pages''' Cindy Marie Small has a cross to bear
Credits
Limited Release: May 14, 2003; Rated: Unrated; Length: 75 Minutes; Genres: Horror, Musical; With: Tara Birtwhistle and Zhang Wei-Qiang

C
By Owen Gleiberman


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 14, 2007, 07:41:21 PM
(http://www.sfpalm.org/events/individual%20events/dracula.jpg)

“No man knows ‘till he does it,
what it’s like to feel his blood drawn
away into the woman he loves!!!”

Guy Maddin—Dracula: Pages From a Virgin's Diary (2002) clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg_hoHIJ3PQ


Weird thing there....they were all giving her their blood.  Sort of a interesting take on Victorian sexuality, eh?

The Slap fest is quite funny.  When I went to IMBD, though I had to verify my age.  Didn't know what to expect.  But this was not nearly so bad as the reformatory scene in "Diary of a Little Lost Girl,"  (pre-ratings days) which seems to be more about power than about sexuality (and of course is quite humorless). 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 14, 2007, 10:52:41 PM
When in doubt, go to the source....Fresh Air, 48 minute interview with Guy Maddin.  First half Maddin discusses his conception of "Pages from a Virgin's Diary."

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13&prgDate=21-May-2003


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 14, 2007, 11:15:48 PM
Here is a shorter interview with Maddin, about 7 minutes, from Morning Edition:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1285061







Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 15, 2007, 09:14:43 AM
NPR Notes


When in doubt, go to the source....Fresh Air, 48 minute interview with Guy Maddin. 
First half Maddin discusses his conception of "Pages from a Virgin's Diary."


Two fascinating interviews with Guy Maddin

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13&prgDate=21-May-2003

“Winnipeg—a black hole for happy thoughts…”

“The Saddest Music in the World—auditioning different bands and groups that were desperate to illicit sympathy thru music…”

Guy Maddin—“a young boy perfecting idleness…”

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1285061

“Dream-director = Maddin’s primitive filmmaking…”

“Dracula—ballet movie as timeless treatment of male jealousy, hatred propagandizing against romantic rivals, against national rivals, racial rivals…”




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 15, 2007, 09:42:50 AM
 (29 September 1979 - November 1982) (divorced)

Dates from start to finish of Isabella Rosselini marriage to
Martin Scorsese.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 15, 2007, 10:01:32 AM
I didn't even know they were married.

Puget, I ordered The Saddest Song in the World.  Very much looking forward to its arrival.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 16, 2007, 02:46:33 AM
My Criterion copy of Grey Gardens came,

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/415185434_eadbae28f0.jpg)

http://www.criterion.com/asp/release.asp?id=123

and I'm excited to see these wonderful Beale ladies.  The edition also includes The Beales of Grey Gardens.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 16, 2007, 03:26:04 AM
Dzimas, I look forward to what you think about Guy Madden.

So far, Lynch, del Toro, Amenábar, Pabst, Conran/Riefenstahl, Madden...

A pretty good track record for a fledgling forum... thanks to you and Hoffman
.

 8) 8) 8)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 16, 2007, 03:49:44 AM
(http://www.bazuca.com/BazucaHTML/img/galeria/A/ADULTERIO__JOHN%20CURRAN__LAURA%20DERN_NAOMI%20WATTS_22.jpg)

Speaking of Lynch, they had Mulholland Drive on TV last night, and after watching Inland Empire a few weeks back I couldn't help but see a similar relationship between these two Hollywood movies and that of Fellini's Roma movies, La Dolce Vita and 8 1/2.  Seeing Mulholland Drive again helped to better visualize what may have been going on in Inland Empire, not so much in the cross-over actors as in the same mob-movie connections, which was more literally presented in Mulholland Drive, even if it seemed a figment of Betty's imagination.  I think Naomi Watts would have served Lynch's purposes better in Inland Empire, although the connection would have become too obvious in that case.  I don't know, somehow Laura Dern really bothered me in IE.  Not one of her more captivating performances.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 16, 2007, 03:54:55 AM
Quote
A pretty good track record for a fledgling forum... thanks to you and Hoffman.

Thanks to you for suggesting this forum, puget.  Despite the occasional caccle from the peanut gallery, I think this is a pretty good forum.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 16, 2007, 04:01:36 AM
One of the more fetching photos of Naomi Watts,

(http://www.lynchnet.com/mdrive/pics/wattspremiere5.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 16, 2007, 05:49:45 AM
Great re-issue by Criterion,

(http://www.danaddington.com/denny/webbdhood.jpg)

http://www.criterion.com/asp/release.asp?id=414

Walter Salles should take a look at it, if he hasn't done so already.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 16, 2007, 11:54:35 AM
Quote from: Dzimas link=topic=190.msg47391#msg47391 date=1195199193[color=blue
[/color]
My Criterion copy of Grey Gardens came,

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/415185434_eadbae28f0.jpg)

http://www.criterion.com/asp/release.asp?id=123

and I'm excited to see these wonderful Beale ladies.  The edition also includes The Beales of Grey Gardens.


Enjoy!  The Beale ladies(the elder being the aunt of Jackie Kennedy) that I had the opportunity to see on television last year, on film are one of the funniest,saddest commentaries ever filmed.  The realization is so haunting that it inspired a Broadway show that was award winning last year; the awards conflicting with something else cinematic or theatrical the same night and I tried to watch both  in alternation which doesn't work. I was just very curious about the actor who played Edie and had to  have studied this film a lot because she got her voice down pat, as well as her moves, to the extent of winning that award.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 16, 2007, 04:14:54 PM
(http://www.solroed-gym.dk/billed/images/grosz%20s40.jpg)

The Peanut Gallery


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 19, 2007, 06:58:58 PM
The Saddest Music in the World

Maddin's casting of this film is more accessible than ever before (Isabella Rossellini and Mark McKinney, of Kids in the Hall fame, star), as is, perhaps, the plot. The film surrounds a competition in which all of the countries of the world have a musical competition, in order to determine which country's music is the saddest, and therefore, which country has the right to claim the saddest history of any nation. With his latest film, Maddin will most certainly continue to explore his interest in music and sound, which has always been present in the ambient sound mix on the soundtrack to his films, as well as within the narratives of several of his works, most obviously Careful, with the townspeople that must barely make a sound when they speak, so as not to cause an avalanche, as well as the never realized The Dikemaster's Daughter, which would have involved a major subplot involving the members of an opera company.

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/directors/03/maddin.html




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 19, 2007, 07:38:11 PM
Guy Maddin - Dracula: Pages... (2002) clip 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PiCrHwbrnQ


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 20, 2007, 12:30:13 AM

My Criterion copy of Grey Gardens came,
 
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/415185434_eadbae28f0.jpg)
 
http://www.criterion.com/asp/release.asp?id=123
 
and I'm excited to see these wonderful Beale ladies.  The edition also includes The Beales of Grey Gardens.

 
Yikes! that was fast. I no sooner mention seeing this film and the spin-off then it unexpectedly pops up again and I've seen it again this evening. Considering that the Maysles made this in 1975, as I realized by the end of the film, those ladies are no longer with us. Maybe little Edie is lingering but I couldn't help wondering how she would make it when she discovered exterior reality again after their insular world of symbiosis had passed away. [She did but it was rough.]
 
The first viewing and I saw but particularly heard them as quite insane. Second viewing and there is a little more understanding of why they sound so keyed up all the time, more than overlapping their continual commentary on their relationship; they are in a duet of disharmonia.  But, then I remembered to remind myself, yes; and the next thing you know, tomorrow you would become more used to it, pretty soon you will be dropping by just to check on them, as the others do, including the Maysles, just  to see how they are doing, and then they've got you. You too can begin to believe it is normal.
 
Now imagine how many people have had to come to the end of their lives this way because there is nothing there to warn you about this fact, unless you have observed it and understood the lesson. That this is what life is all about in reality.  You have to know it, and figure it out, prepare, and then let go.
 
One of the things that sets this into the correct frame, after a number of visits to the porch and beginning to get the dimensions of that porch from the nearby rooms, by now being familiar with the long neglected wood of this cedar-shake house, is that after a few glimpses over the edge, the Maysles take the camera abruptly to the perspective from this porch, by transfering Edie to the beach  and then sweeping the camera back to that house you get the exact distance, that the trees have continually grown taller as forest canopy and this is contrasted with a neighbor right in between who was insistent apparently in maintaining a landscaping schedule.
 
At this distance, the Beale house could almost pass inspection as up to neighbourhood standard, where humans are living in synchronicity with the Ocean and all that it portends.  The majority of people who reside in this proximity keep two houses at least, seasonally, in different regions, because the Atlantic is incredible.  I recall Edie saying something about not being willing to stand another Winter in this house....   When you really look, during the camera pan from the ocean back toward the spacing of the houses among the bowers of trees, you see the physical degrading of the house even from that distance.


An off-Broadway musical Grey Gardens — A New Musical debuted in March 2006 starring Christine Ebersole, and played on Broadway at the Walter Kerr Theatre from November 2, 2006 thru July 28, 2007 for 300+ performances. The female leads Ebersole and Mary Louise Wilson both won Tony Awards

Grey Gardens, a film starring Drew Barrymore and Jessica Lange, scheduled for release in 2008


How did the two Edies' situation become what the Maysles show you? Little Edie's mother was the sister of Black Jack Bouvier, Jackie Bouvier Kennedy's father.  So right away there is some connection of unstable personality in both sister and brother; the latter perpetually alcoholic. His sister's husband mailed her pseudo paper's of a Mexican divorce, ran off with some young thing, and left.

"When Grandfather died (in 1948), he left $65,000 in trust. Jack B. ("Black Jack" Bouvier, Big Edie’s brother and Wall Street broker) had only one objective — to grab the Beale trust fund to invest for his daughters (Jackie and Lee) and he did. He was supposed to take care of Mother." Instead, Big Edith ended up with $300 per month. Mother and daughter reportedly remained independent by selling off their Tiffany pieces item by item.

With the Kennedy inauguration, secret servicemen showed up at the Hampton estate; it was Jackie Kennedy who put about $32,000 into the house for renovations, to pass the housing code which had been flagrantly violated.

At this point I think that Gore Vidal (another Jackie "cousin" of sorts  as a result of sequential marriages between their families; his mother married Jackie's stepfather,Hugh D. Auchincloss, jr.) was probably already in Ravello with Howard Austen.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 20, 2007, 12:36:00 AM
Ps.  It was Ben Bradlee,editor of the Washington Post, who bought the house eventually. Makes me curious how the estate turned out.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 20, 2007, 09:03:11 PM
One of the more fetching photos of Naomi Watts,

(http://www.lynchnet.com/mdrive/pics/wattspremiere5.jpg)

Naomi Watts, yes. I agree she would have been better than Laura Dern for Inland Empire.

Younger looking and naive, not as hard and cold as Dern.

Interesting parallels with Fellini's Roma movies, La Dolce Vita and 8 1/2.

Let us know when you get your copy of The Saddest Music in the World...

We can wrap up our Maddin Thread and move on to the next movie...

Any suggestions? Monte Hellman's Two-Lane Blacktop looks very interesting...
    :)

(http://www.danaddington.com/denny/webbdhood.jpg)





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 21, 2007, 12:00:31 AM
Still another week before I get the movie, so we can discuss something else in the meantime.  Takes three long weeks for boxes to arrive from the US.  Looking forward to Two-Lane Blacktop, but isn't being released until Dec. 11, so add three weeks to that and it will be early in the New Year before I get it.  The local Videoteka doesn't carry such treats.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 21, 2007, 01:53:49 AM
Dzimas. Perhaps Hoffman has a movie suggestion we can all access—until mid-December? Whatever you’d like to do—maybe something like Blue Velvet since you’ve recently seen it again?

“Videoteka”—an interesting name. Many Eastern European movies?

Btw were you able to take a look at “Niagara” over in the poetry forum? I posted over there because I was using non-discursive narrative to describe the “Marilyn Monroe mystique”—I didn't want to upset the peanut gallery.  :)

Monroe was so beautiful back then and the Technicolor was so rich; different than the usual film noir shadowy suggestive b&w up until then… The Niagara scenery back then in the ‘50s was stunning too—different than the Las Vegas commercialized ambience today. That and I’ve always liked Joseph Cotton’s acting since The Third Man—the innocent naïve American pulp fiction writer caught up in postwar Vienna. The “lecture scene” both in the Graham Greene novel and movie always seemed so witty to me—and that limo ride so funny too...

Anyway, I did that little “pomo-pastiche” with Niagara while Hoffman was away—like a jazz-riff sort of thing. Using screen capture takes… commenting on them… revisiting a classy oldie-but-goodie… great fun if you know what I mean.
  :) :) :)
 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Urethra_Franklin on November 21, 2007, 01:59:10 AM
Maybe less people would ignore you if every word you posted wasn't in italics.............


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 21, 2007, 02:24:24 AM
Quote
“Videoteka”—an interesting name. Many Eastern European movies?

They have a pretty good range at the videoteka (a hybrid name to be sure) but such obscure movies are not in their ken.  Lots of Russian and Eastern European movies as you can imagine.  I would be up for Emir Kusturica.  Underground is perhaps his best movie,

(http://39escalones.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/underground.jpg)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114787/



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 21, 2007, 02:51:09 AM

Checked with Scarecrow Video in the university district & they have it.

I'll get it & hopefully Hoffman can get a copy too.
  :) :)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 22, 2007, 03:17:52 PM
You should see if they have Arizona Dream too:

(http://www.artevod.com/media/8381_arizona_dream10.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KabI4pETyEk


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: jbottle on November 22, 2007, 11:14:04 PM
I liked Vincent Gallo's "North by Northwest" bit at the talent show, really funny, I was expecting more from the director afterward, because I thought it was inventive and all, but nothing...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 23, 2007, 10:47:53 PM
Underground looks good to me.  I'm almost tempted to look for Delicatessen, which is linked below Underground on IMDB. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 25, 2007, 01:02:22 PM
Addendum(from Poetry) in regard to the connection of the Film Industry crops up and
brought in a harvest times three which might be better entered as tripartite post to Movie Club.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 25, 2007, 01:04:48 PM
Movie Club 1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universum_Film_AG

Universum Film AG, better known as Ufa or UFA, was the principal film studio in Germany, home of the German film industry during the Weimar Republic and through World War II, and a major force in world cinema during its brief existence from 1917 to 1945.
UFA was created on December 18, 1917 in Berlin as a government-owned producer of World War I propaganda and public service films. It was created through the consolidation of most of Germany's commercial film companies

In 1921 UFA was privatized. It became the leading production company in an industry that produced around 600 films each year and attracted a million customers every day. In the silent movie years, when films were easier to adapt for foreign markets, UFA began developing an international reputation and posed serious competition to Hollywood.

In the Weimar years the studio produced and exported an enormous, accomplished, and inventive body of work. Only an estimated 10% of the studio's output still exists.

The studio over-extended itself financially in the late 1920s, partly as a result of the expensive production of Metropolis, and was taken over by Alfred Hugenberg in March 1927. Hugenberg was connected to Krupp, sympathetic to the Nazis and the company became a producer of Nazi propaganda films after Hitler took power in 1933. Joseph Goebbels' ministry of propaganda essentially controlled the content of UFA films through political pressure and threat. Because of this climate, Lang, like many of his UFA colleagues, would soon leave Germany and work in Hollywood.




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 25, 2007, 01:09:29 PM
Movie Club 2.

In 1937 the Nazis bought up 72% of Ufa's shares, and in 1942 UFA was totally nationalized by the Third Reich as the monopoly parent company of the German state's film industry, under which were absorbed all other production and distribution companies and studio facilities active at that time. The studio's design was also an inspiration to the newly constructed Manchukuo Film Association.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchukuo_Film_Association

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Manchuria.png    *3



After the end of the Second World War UFA ceased activity, and initially was so associated with the Third Reich that even reissues of its non-political product were accomplished only by removing all reference to the company from the credits. Furthermore, the UFA studios were located in the Soviet Zone of Germany and were subsequently incorporated into the German Democratic Republic (East Germany). The new studio, DEFA (Deutsche Film AG), carried on the UFA tradition with many directors returning from exile, while actors and technicians were recruited from the old company. DEFA went out of business soon after German reunification in 1990, but the UFA studios in Babelsberg now house a number of independent production companies as well as a theme park and museum devoted to the history of German film. Attempts were made in West Germany to resurrect UFA as a production company, but failed to produce more than a handful of films. During the 1960s, the UFA name and logo were coopted by a West German chain of movie theaters. In 1991, UFA was re-established as a major producer of television programs. Today it is part of the transnational Bertelsmann corporation.




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on November 25, 2007, 01:13:17 PM
Movie Club 3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Manchuria.png

The large red area west of Japan is Manchukuo (or, in Chinese, the country of the Manchu which was the last Imperial dynasty prior to Chinese Nationalism). The third dot north in the red area marking a place name is Harbin, known as a PRC commune: Tatsai, an oil field that, last I heard, petered out.

When the Kuomintang or Nationalist party, prior to the Japanese Imperialist invasion of Mainland China, began to join forces or sell out to the Japanese ( a scene carefully documented by Film maker Bernard Bertolucci in his film,The Last Emperor),the object was the reputed oil field.

The Japanese made their first major inroads however in the area south of Bejing, the southeastern peninsula that juts out into the Yellow Sea, known as Shandong(Shantung) which was a former German colony in China from which the Germans shipped coal.  The advantage to the Japanese was that, when the Germans gave up their former colony, the infrastructure remained behind of coal-delivering railway tracks leading into the port for shipment. This meant that Japanese troops landing on the peninsula could speedily move inland using those tracks and consolidate the occupation of a larger area more quickly.

At this point the Japanese Empire became the third part of the axis powers to Nazi Germany.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 27, 2007, 03:41:27 PM
(http://mechanicrobotic.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/sjff_01_img0102.jpg)

All I've go to say is Wow!  I saw Man with a Movie Camera tonight with Michael Nyman and his Chamber Orchestra playing a fantastic score to this classic Soviet film, capturing the frenetic pace of the movie.  It had everything from stop action animation to surreal montages to touching images of everyday life.  It was like Symphony for a Great City on acid.

(http://www.barcelonamusic.net/arxs/uped/Image/michaelnymanband.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 27, 2007, 04:05:47 PM
Yes!  I have Man with a Movie Camera and I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. 

Is that photo of the band from the back of the Underground box?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 28, 2007, 08:04:37 AM
Hoffman, I went to the Nyman concert expecting to hear only extracts and was pleased as punch to get the movie in its entirety.  It seemed to me that Vertov used Symphony of a Great City as a point of departure, but gave the viewer so much more.  The Nyman Band warmed up with a few pieces from Prospero's Books and other Greenaway movies with Sarah Leonard singing soprano.  Don't get nights like this very often.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 28, 2007, 09:43:31 PM
(http://www.thestranger.com/binary/52a8/filmofflead-500.jpg)

Lynch (One)

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=449314


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 29, 2007, 03:03:34 PM
It was interesting watching one of the Russian channels tonight as they had clips from Man with a Movie Camera with members of the intelligentsia commenting on the attitudes at the time.  One of the big things was getting rid of the sense of shame, and showing the body and being more open sexually was a major part of the Socialist revolution.  Of course, this brought with it a fair share of problems, such as veneral disease, which skyrocketed during the time.  Lenin apparently blamed it on the prostitutes.  But, the movie definitely extolls the virtues of the flesh.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 29, 2007, 09:03:39 PM
It was interesting watching one of the Russian channels tonight as they had clips from Man with a Movie Camera with members of the intelligentsia commenting on the attitudes at the time.  One of the big things was getting rid of the sense of shame, and showing the body and being more open sexually was a major part of the Socialist revolution.  Of course, this brought with it a fair share of problems, such as veneral disease, which skyrocketed during the time.  Lenin apparently blamed it on the prostitutes.  But, the movie definitely extolls the virtues of the flesh.

American movies do seem a bit prudish compared to European, and we have our share of STDs, teen-age pregnancies and the like.  I think it has more to do with parents honestly sharing information with their children, along with open discussions of values.

I think you commented earlier on that you had seen Glass conduct Dracula, and now Nyman conducting MWAMC....nice theatre you have there.  I have the Nyman scoring of Man with a Movie Camera and the Alloy Orchestra version as well.  The impact is quite different which goes to show the importance of a score. 

I prefer the Nyman.  Watching this, one feels voyeristic, but with none of the guilt.  The music plays on the emotions without being overdone or sentimental.  Without words, the music takes on a greater import.  Some of the best scenes for me:  The couples in the municipal offices when the shift is from the couple getting their marriage license to the couple getting divorced, the modesty of the woman getting up in the morning and dressing with her back to the camera, the birth of the baby, and that shop window with the bicycle.  Also like the peaceful feeling in the early scene where all the machines and gears shut down.  Also, the scene where the man with the camera is riding alongside the horse and buggy, tearing through the streets while he is perched on the door frame of his convertible.  When the moving film turns into still shots, there is almost the feeling of immortality.

I imagine you enjoyed the architectural display?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 30, 2007, 09:33:32 AM
In many ways, hoffman, I feel very lucky over here, especially when it comes to cultural activities.  For a city of half a million people, Vilnius ranks as a world class city in terms of the quality of its theatre, opera and ballet, and now it is drawing in great concerts from abroad.  Not to mention all the Russian theatre and ballet that comes to Vilnius. 

(http://metoperafamily.org/_post/images/906ononline/withDomashdl39106.jpg)

On another note, Minghella was here two years ago rehearsing his version of Madame Butterfly, praising the quality of Lithuanian opera.  Unfortunately, he didn't take this new found talent on the road with him.  Anyway, Vilnius could boast of hosting the premier of the opera that went onto sold-out shows in London and New York.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 30, 2007, 09:41:38 AM
In regard, to MwMC, the still shots were handled so beautifully, first as still shots, then shown in the cutting room where they came to life, and then finally within the context of the pullulating streets of Moscow.  I found it utterly fascinated the way Vertov moved backward and forward in this movie, oblivious to any sense of a conventional timeline.  I had to keep reminding myself this was 1928.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 30, 2007, 09:50:47 AM
I guess you all are waiting for me to make the first comment on Underground, but I have to see it again before being so bold.  Promise to do so over the weekend.  Kusturica has a new movie coming out,

(http://www.kusturica.ru/i/films/zavet.jpg)

Zavet (Promise Me This)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0479519/

Will be showing in Vilnius soon.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on November 30, 2007, 11:27:15 AM
There was something in Underground that reminded me of John Irving and Kurt Vonnegut.  The zoo scene was obvious, but overall, the inanity surrounding this serious subject made me want to dig out those authors.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on November 30, 2007, 11:54:36 AM
When something hurts deep down inside, humor is often the best way to approach it, the more inane the better, I think. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on November 30, 2007, 09:48:02 PM
(http://www.ci.seattle.wa.us/dpd/stellent/groups/pan/@pan/@plan/@designcommission/documents/web_images/dpd_002083.jpg)
New Ballard Library in Seattle


I imagine you enjoyed the architectural display?


Speaking of architecture, I visited the new Ballard Library in Seattle today. It has grass growing on the roof. The librarian showed me a slit in the wall which was a periscope you could use to survey the weird roof. I thought I was in a David Lynch film. There I was in this strange building full of studious Norwegians reading away oblivious to the fact they were all in a little Grass Shack a la Polynesia... Life as a movie...    :o  :o  :o

 





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 09:35:42 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/2af/15e/2af15e83-87a1-426a-9091-e3e26aa252d2)
Dziga Vertov's Man With A Movie Camera (1929)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 09:45:53 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/d7d/598/d7d5989f-a69c-4ff9-bf98-14727b57f5e1)
Dziga Vertov's Man With A Movie Camera (1929)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 10:08:30 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/098/26f/09826f0c-268f-481e-bdd1-14303fb7287c)
Dziga Vertov's Man With A Movie Camera (1929)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 10:19:41 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/319/62a/31962a73-e0d3-4668-a3c2-9bde429f5d4a)
Dziga Vertov's Man With A Movie Camera (1929)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 10:30:44 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/026/706/026706a3-aea7-4293-829a-921e0bb7ac53)
Dziga Vertov's Man With A Movie Camera (1929)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 10:41:54 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/4ed/b69/4edb692f-6dd6-4744-9ec6-e2f81bcd26d5)
Dziga Vertov's Man With A Movie Camera (1929)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 10:51:32 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/6e1/2ba/6e12ba6c-2542-4587-8629-fb718fe38f84)
Dziga Vertov's Man With A Movie Camera (1929)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 10:56:11 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/cf2/b0d/cf2b0d60-f02e-436b-967d-2fc8827904fd)
Dziga Vertov's Man With A Movie Camera (1929)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 05:41:39 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/f4d/0f4/f4d0f454-425d-4915-84f7-f8d3b2a6496f)

Man With A Movie Camera = Magic Realism

Quote from: Dzimas link=topic=190.msg50715#msg50715  date=1196433698


In regard, to MwMC, the still shots were handled so beautifully, first as still shots, then shown in the cutting room where they came to life, and then finally within the context of the pullulating streets of Moscow.  I found it utterly fascinated the way Vertov moved backward and forward in this movie, oblivious to any sense of a conventional timeline.  I had to keep reminding myself this was 1928.


“The characters are often idiosyncratic, possess unusual, historic or symbolic names and are heavily characterised. The plot often is not linear, labyrinthine, circular or spiral-like, intertwined, anachronic or sporadically chaotic; sometimes parallel, double, co-existing or multiple plots or subplots occur. The setting usually refers to a rather specific historical, geographical and cultural context. There often is a peculiar representation of time and space: time-shifts between co-existing plots, flash-backs and flash-forwards; the creation of a 'mythical' place,”

http://tinyurl.com/2u8oyy



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 06:39:49 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/5c8/9dc/5c89dca8-2834-4e48-88a6-c226302a2157)

Balkan Magic Realism, Latin Magic Realism... Even American History Magic Realism

The reason I mention magic realism is that Underground seems to have a lot of it. Balkan magic realism? I’m watching it again today doing capture shots like I did with Man With A Movie Camera (1929).

Also there’s a discussion starting over in the Latin Lit forum with   Alejo Carpentier’s The Lost Steps—a classic "real maravilloso" novel set in Venezuela…

Magic realism seems to pop up everywhere doesn’t it?

I was shocked to see it pop up over in the History Forum tonight!!!!


http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,33.msg51197.html#msg51197




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 02, 2007, 01:26:10 AM
Magic realism....the first minutes of the movie where we see that the bird on the shoulder of the mentally impaired zookeeper is more aware of the world than he will ever be. 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 02, 2007, 01:59:45 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/839/1d7/8391d75e-55b0-4d3b-8661-cc4ae387a1a8)

The Difference Between Man With A Movie Camera and Underground


It was interesting watching one of the Russian channels tonight as they had clips from Man with a Movie Camera with members of the intelligentsia commenting on the attitudes at the time.  One of the big things was getting rid of the sense of shame, and showing the body and being more open sexually was a major part of the Socialist revolution.  Of course, this brought with it a fair share of problems, such as veneral disease, which skyrocketed during the time.  Lenin apparently blamed it on the prostitutes.  But, the movie definitely extolls the virtues of the flesh.



Some quotes from Underground:

Natalija: "I drink brandy and you've been drinking my blood for 20 years, motherfucker..."

Natalija: "How could you kill me? I've been dead for 20 years!!!"

Natalija: "You lie so beautifully."


It seems to me that Underground is a quantum jump in realist sexuality and violence.

It's like Magic Realism gone sour... it's like Fabulation down and dirty...

The optimism and fascination with the process of early Russian Filmmaking seems naive and childish now...

Compared with the sexual realism and violence of a movie 75 years later like Underground...

To me it's like Magic Realism becoming more postmodern and cynical... more absurd and meaningless.

But then absurdity and meaninglessness often spawn a different kind of realism.

I don't know if it's magic realism in the Borges sense of refined labyrinthine Libraries...

We're reading Carpentier's The Lost Stairs now over in Latin Literature... refined intellectual like Borges.

Maybe I'd call it Magic Horror Realism like the incredibly bloody Slovakian film Hostel (2005).

"Slice and Dice" Magic Realism... Actually it's been around a long time.

Hitchcock's Psycho (1960) with the infamous shower scene was just a taste of things to come.

Underground is much more violent but it's also much more absurd and politically savvy about things.

The world has essentially been on a war-economy since WWII with hundreds of profitable wars going on.

Underground picks up on the irony of this Weltanschauung down in that Yugoslavian dingy basement.

All the loves, intrigues, lies, catastrophes, scams that go into Magic Realism today...

"It is midnight at noon
It is sunshine at midnight
From the sky above
Light is beaming
Nobody knows, nobody knows
What is really Shining..."



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 02, 2007, 03:21:31 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/bfe/f2c/bfef2cd7-51cf-4628-98b9-8a5262c6a29a)

The Floating Bride


Magic realism....the first minutes of the movie where we see that the bird on the shoulder of the mentally impaired zookeeper is more aware of the world than he will ever be. 


The “underground wedding” scene has got to be one of the more surrealistic Magic Realism scenes in Underground, don’t you think Hoffman?

I mean it’s not even subtle—the way the bride floats. At first it’s done with a couple of big muscular Belgrade studs pushing the push-cart with the lucky bride attached and hanging with ropes—seemingly floating along the floor with a couple of other stage helpers blowing air at her so that her lovely hair is flowing as if she were actually floating in air…

Strangely enough though later on in the orgy-esque drunken party (there’s lots of them in Underground) this same bride is then seen actually floating over the lucky mother and father and “in-laws” toward the lucky bridegroom who gazes up in total wonder and youthful romance at his new Floating Bride.

Nobody seems to care that’s she’s actually Floating—without the help of stage technicians or ropes and pulleys or fake wind blowing through her hair. Everybody keeps drinking and singing and dancing—and the crazy band keeps playing and playing on the revolving multi-tiered Wedding Cake.

Everybody seems to have undergone a “suspension of belief” in terms of actual dingy underground reality—in favor of a more romantic “real maravilloso” situation in which the real becomes marvelously if not absurdly much more real than the usual “bargain basement” reality they’ve been used to since the Nazis and Tito—and unknown to most of them much more magical than the Cold War going on above them.

There are as many polymorphously perverse levels of Magic Realism to the plot of Underground—as there are layers in the Wedding Cake with the Revolving Band going around and around. Ingenious subtexts and hidden agendas that may remind us of just what it is to be POMO today—can one believe what’s in The New York Times anymore after they hid the illegal surveillance game going on? Or was that just another Urban Myth?

Are Urban Myths a form of contemporary Magic Realism?

How much Magic Realism can people take or believe in?

Are we like the diners in Brazil who say ho-hum to tacky technology going downhill fast?

Is there any difference between the Underground movie denizens…

And those of us scurrying around like rats above ground today?

Who is really Underground?

Is "Undergroundedness" actually just trashy Magic Social Realism?

So many kinds of ugly kitschy dystopian Magic Realisms...

So little time...






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 02, 2007, 03:48:13 PM
Why do you think magical realism was a byproduct of oppressed cultures?  Is it because their ancestral knowledge is so at odds with their present truths?  The current situation has the feeling of the surreal, while the memories become ordinary?  Or perhaps the current reality is so dreadful only dreams offer escape?

But, being that this is a film...visual art, do we apply the original meaning of the term as put forth by Franz Roh?  Or do we view film as both a literary and a visual pursuit and apply the more literary meaning of the term?  Is Roh's usage at all in vogue?






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 02, 2007, 04:02:45 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/5c8/9dc/5c89dca8-2834-4e48-88a6-c226302a2157)


The above shot has almost the same quality of many of the works of art discussed here (Section 1):

http://www.uh.edu/~englmi/ObjectsAndSeeing_intro.html


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 02, 2007, 04:46:35 PM
(http://www.lavenderlibrary.org/images/BeforeNightFalls2.jpg)

Postcolonialism and Magic Realism


Why do you think magical realism was a byproduct of oppressed cultures?  Is it because their ancestral knowledge is so at odds with their present truths?  The current situation has the feeling of the surreal, while the memories become ordinary?  Or perhaps the current reality is so dreadful only dreams offer escape?

But, being that this is a film...visual art, do we apply the original meaning of the term as put forth by Franz Roh?  Or do we view film as both a literary and a visual pursuit and apply the more literary meaning of the term?  Is Roh's usage at all in vogue?



Some very interesting questions.

My thoughts go back to our Said Orientalist discussion in Nonfiction...

Remember the one in the late great NYTimes Book Forum...   

Dzimas, you and I shared some stimulating thoughts about postcolonialism art and politics back then...  :) :) :)

Even the cover of the book with the young nude Snakecharmer had its own postcolonial angle...

The idea being how much of Empire Art reflected the Europeans themselves...

Rather than the subject cultures of the Empire...

Was The Snakecharmer a reflection of the European mind there in Egypt?

How much of this "Orientalism" was Magic Realism?

Both on the part of the Europeans... being there in their Empire...

And on the part of the Egyptians etc in reaction to being colonial subjects?

Magic Realism thus has a postcolonial context...

Equal and perhaps more important than the Postmodernism one we see in Underground...

Aren't the Yugoslavian undergrounders similar to the conquered people under European Empire rule?

The Latin American magic realists like Carpentier are aware of this, e.g. The Lost Steps...

So that perhaps Magic Realism is a reaction to any kind of dominator culture interaction...

In fact, I feel it myself as a gay writer... my magic realism poetry as a result of the same struggle...

Reinaldo Arenas the Cuban gay poet is the perfect example of Gay Magic Realism...

Reading his work and studying how it develops over time helps me...

Not only to understand Arenas but myself as well...

Each writer invents his own magic realism...

 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 02, 2007, 06:16:49 PM
(http://www.uh.edu/~englmi/i/garciaMarquez/SaintFrancisXavierJose.jpg)

Baroque Details and Magic Realism

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/5c8/9dc/5c89dca8-2834-4e48-88a6-c226302a2157)


The above shot has almost the same quality of many of the works of art discussed here (Section 1):

http://www.uh.edu/~englmi/ObjectsAndSeeing_intro.html


An excellent essay with many paintings that illustrates Zamora's essay.

The Weimar art scene we've already studied with Pandora's Box...

Pan's Labyrinth also many Baroque details making the fantasies real...

Zamora goes on to include Argentine magic realism in art and literature...

I brought it to the attention of the Latin American Lit readers in regard to Carpentier's The Lost Steps.

Baroque gives realism to the magic realism and grounds Underground into the now and the real...

Here are some of Zamora's insights about how the magic realism process works:

http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,36.msg51319.html#msg51319

I’ve been reading an online essay by Zamora about Carpentier and the Baroque—and why the Baroque was important to him in terms of his lo real maravilloso americano approach to his novels.

Here is a small excerpt from her essay that may be helpful to the readers in our discussion of The Lost Steps:

Lois Parkinson Zamora, “Swords and Silver Rings: Objects and Expression in Magical Realism and the New World Baroque”

http://www.uh.edu/~englmi/ObjectsAndSeeing_3.html

“You'll recall that it was the Cuban novelist Alejo Carpentier who first made explicit the connection between Baroque representation and American versions of magical realism. In his 1949 preface to his novel The Kingdom of this World, Carpentier referred to lo real maravilloso americano (the American marvelous real), which he defined in negative terms: lo real maravilloso americano is not European and it is most especially not Surrealism.

In later interviews, he amplified his definition, saying that the marvelous real consists of "the strange, the singular, the unusual . . .

But what is interesting for our purposes is that almost immediately after 1949, he began to link his American marvelous real to the Baroque, eventually conflating the two in ways that render them virtually indistinguishable. Carpentier's engagement of a European art historical category--the Baroque--when he was, in fact, aiming to distance himself from Europe, when he was aiming to differentiate American cultural identity from European cultural models, is noteworthy, and the question is why?

“It is my strong sense that Carpentier recognized the need for the Baroque as a counterbalance to his American marvelous real not for its elaborate ornamentation or for its dynamics of decentering or its theatrical space or its illusionism or its hyperbole--though all of these Baroque characteristics would prove useful; rather, I believe that he needed the Baroque for its realism.

In interviews and essays, Carpentier repeatedly insists upon the realistic character of Baroque representation, and on the importance of Baroque realism to Latin American writers attempting to depict Latin America's histories and people. In a 1964 essay entitled "Problematics of the Current Latin American Novel," Carpentier cites a contemporary poet as saying, "Show me the object; make it with your words so that I can touch it, value it, feel its weight," and then he adds, "The object lives, is seen, lets its weight be felt.

But the prose that gives life and substance, weight and measure [to the object] is a Baroque prose, a forcefully Baroque prose . . . "

Carpentier was a lifelong student of the visual arts, and of art history, and he knew perfectly well that Baroque realism aims not simply to replicate the world, but also to make available to the viewer an invisible realm beyond the real.”



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 02, 2007, 10:50:58 PM
Quote
Underground is much more violent but it's also much more absurd and politically savvy about things.

The world has essentially been on a war-economy since WWII with hundreds of profitable wars going on.

Underground picks up on the irony of this Weltanschauung down in that Yugoslavian dingy basement.

The overriding joke here is that the production in the underground is far more believeable than the production being staged by the professional movie makers.  The underground is far more artistic than what is going on in the real world and, as Marko tells us, All Art is a Lie.

On Blackie....isn't it interesting that we never see him without his own "soundtrack?"


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 02, 2007, 11:40:35 PM
It seems to me that when living in an oppressed culture, the only thing you have left is your imagination, and it becomes all the more vivid for it.  I sometimes wonder if the disillusionment with Socialist Realism gave way to Magical Realism.  Brazil is another great example, although not a product of a South American or Eastern European filmmaker, but rather an ex-pat American filmmaker living in Britain.  Saw The Saddest Music in the World last night and it too has that magical sense of coping with a drepressed world.  Great call, puget!  Really enjoyed the movie.  I thought the father was great, along with the great fun Madden had with the theme he brewed up.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on December 03, 2007, 03:51:59 PM
re:#890  The Floating Bride     and,maybe "the Underground".

I don't think that Franz Roh had yet written his dissertation for his degree, when this painting showed up but the funny thing is how he got into trouble with the return of the object when the Nazis declared Expressionism degenerate.  Obviously, Objectivism came after this other thing which was never called magic realism but here she is, the original floating bride having a birthday.  Her carried-away husband who had been involved with the Revolutionary Underground in Russia,unhesitatingly went south when same Nazis entered Paris until Varian Fry pulled him out of Provence. Some people see him as a kind of fourth Marx Brother, I haven't included those shots but eventually you will discover why; also a little bit like the Jimmy Durante as a sweater girl that you have posted in various spots. Marc and Jimmy could have been cousins. I often get him confused with another Parisian who ended up incarcerated in a detention camp ouside of the city, for being an Expressionist. Their work is not at all alike but I must have gone to see this show in Chicago, in my twenties.  Here she is after much fanfare:
Madame Bella Rosenfeld Chagall
http://www.moma.org/ecards/write_ecard.php?object_id=79360

and another:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1950_Chagall_La_Mari%C3%A9e.jpg

http://www.rollins.edu/Foreign_Lang/Russian/chag3.jpg


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 03, 2007, 04:07:45 PM
(http://www.film-forward.com/saddest.jpg)

Dzimas—I’m glad you liked The Saddest Music in the World. Actually tho it was Hoffman’s idea and she was the one who got me to watch Madden. Hoffman was the one who got the del Toro Pan’s Labyrinth going too after we watched Lynch.

Hoffman is pretty good at discussing film, books, music and art. Several times during the late great Nytimes forums (such as during the Graham Greene discussion and the Sylvia Path readers group), I almost quit because of the Trolls and Peanut Gallery. The same with this Movie Club—but each time her kindness and keen mind encouraged me to continue dialoging and learning…

Most writers I know would rather dialog with themselves than schmooze on a biog—but with reader-moviegoers like you and Hoffman each book and movie opens up many ideas for me. I truly value these insights like our Magical Realism Thread... Ideas that I would never have on my own... Thank you both. We've come a long way since Said and I'm enjoying it very much!

There’s something about these Movie Club Threads—they seem to have a life of their own sometimes don’t they? The way these movies we’ve discussed since we began—segue smoothly together very nicely…

Any thoughts about our next movie? Perhaps another magic realism film?     
 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 03, 2007, 08:58:24 PM
I'm having a run of anime watching right now.  Two of my favorites are Paranoia Agent and Berserk.  But I'm not sure how to discuss those...art? Plot?   Also, they are multi disk sets and might be hard to locate.

But there might be quite a bit to discuss in a movie like Brazil....for instance, ever notice the one-legged, pregnant woman standing in the train cage while all the men take the seats?  Only way he could have pushed that image farther would have been to have all the men smoking....


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 04, 2007, 10:11:06 AM
I would agree that Magical Realism is a product of Postmodernism.  I think Latin American writers and filmmakers gave it a particularly unique feel, but I would include Rushdie, Grass and others in this genre.  Too bad they never made Midnight's Children into a movie, as Rushdie wrote a screenplay for it.  Maybe one day?

That said, I think there is a similar to feel to Kusturica films, and I think this is because of similar political situations, as you noted puget.  The Balkans have been torn apart in about the same way as Central and South America, held together by "iron hands" over the years.  Funny, that Vargas-Llosa used Albania in Aunt Julia and the Scriptwriter.  It was also interesting to see Madden draw on Serbia in The Saddest Music in the World, with Roderick masquerading as Gravillo the Great.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 04, 2007, 10:24:30 AM
There is also the African element.  I don't know if anyone has read Ben Okri's The Famished Road, but it is a feast as far as magical realism is concerned, building on the wonderful world Wole Soyinka created in his earlier books.  Both owe a lot to Yoruba culture.  Too bad no one has tried to make this book into a movie, but maybe one day Nollywood will go beyond its current blaxploitation and try to capture some of the great literature of the country.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on December 04, 2007, 04:55:27 PM
DZIMAS, this reminds me that when Alejo Carpentier wrote, The Kingdom of this World, he left out huge historically accurate elements of the Haitian Revolution and could only deal with the "magical realism" of an event whose roots were in the American Revolution quite prior to the French Revolution but of course led to the Cuban Revolution; and changes in how Africans in numerous African countries changed their attitude, let's just call it Negritude.

I'm not surprised that Serbia or the Balkans  or Albania figure in the writing of a Peruvian; ask elPortenito1

Of course, he will probably answer you with a trope on the Lativians are coming,the Lativians are coming,the Latvians are coming; and I guess you know where that is coming from, possibly close to home. It's an attitude, that I feel is similar to what the Dutch Provos went through post WW2 during the international situationist Sixties and lasted all of about two years.  http://www.marijuanalibrary.org/HT_provos_0190.html/

The after effects are still with the Nederlanders however; they enjoy it. Being different from us, even "their Muslim" problem is not Bush oriented. The film, Antonia's Line, by Marleen Gorris, was replete with magic realism scenes that delighted me while reminiscing at the language.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 04, 2007, 05:52:31 PM
Took another look at Underground today...Dzimas, did you get a chance to watch it over the weekend? 

The first time through, I read it as magical realism, but this time for me, the whole thing took on the sense of hyper-realism...the violence, the sexuality, the animals' instinctual sense of disturbance at impending "catastrophe", even the floating bride seemed less magical realism than a foreshadowing of the underwater scenes.  But, hyper-realism or magical realism, the point comes across of the absurd waste of the whole thing....and this about a "good war."

In the very short interview with the director, he comments that this is a movie about hope and the idea that no one is all good or all bad.  I see this in the ending with the resurrections and the forgive but not forget, but then the island breaks away and starts floating to sea.

 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 04, 2007, 10:30:20 PM

The first time through, I read it as magical realism, but this time for me, the whole thing took on the sense of hyper-realism...the violence, the sexuality, the animals' instinctual sense of disturbance at impending "catastrophe", even the floating bride seemed less magical realism than a foreshadowing of the underwater scenes.  But, hyper-realism or magical realism, the point comes across of the absurd waste of the whole thing....and this about a "good war."

In the very short interview with the director, he comments that this is a movie about hope and the idea that no one is all good or all bad.  I see this in the ending with the resurrections and the forgive but not forget, but then the island breaks away and starts floating to sea.


I had that same feeling, but it goes like this—

Kusturica it seems to me is satirizing even “magical realism.”

I mean how many times can you make fun of that ménage trois? It goes on and on—all the different variations of love and betrayal? All the weddings and bands and parties. After awhile it gets repetitions and boring which is maybe what Kusturica is trying to do?

That both magic and hyper-realism are as fake as Underground?

For example, the “dialogic fabulation” during one of make-out scenes with Marko and Natalija devolves into increasing absurdity as it moves right along:

“No text, in dear,
has Truth to it. The
Truth exists only
as real life”—Marko

“You are the Truth—
you are supposed to
be the Truth.”—Marko

“There is  no Truth—
only your conviction
that what you act 
in the Truth.”—Marko

“No, art is lie,
a big lie. We are all
liars, a little bit
at least.”—Marko

See how the dialog devolves?

A dilemma—at what point does Fabulation simply become Absurdity?

But that’s only half the problem…since Fabulation begins in Absurdity. 

Borges writes that it's absurd to even think we can know reality.

Luis Buñuel's The Exterminating Angel (1962) and Los Olvidados (1950) seems to say the same thing...

In other words maybe Magic Realism is like a Snake biting its own tail. Like the complex symbolism that Borges uses in some of his short stories about the battle between the worship of the Cross versus the eternal returning Circle…

Magic Realism can thus be maddeningly paradoxical—like Kusturica’s version in Underground.

For me the result is a kind of filmic cognitive dissonance—but then what’s new? 

It‘s the story of my life…
   

:D :D :D
 





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 05, 2007, 12:57:00 AM
Speaking of of the absurd...

"Luis Bunuel is one of cinema's most reassuring directors, if only because he confirms time and time again the essential absurdity of existence. Whereas some might seek the mother's milk of closure and affirmation, I am warmed -- rocked to sleep, if you will -- by ambiguity and cynical despair. If a film ends happily or with even a hint of consolation, I am kicked into a cycle of crippling depression. With Bunuel and his delightfully vicious view of mankind, I am lulled into a hellish state of bliss, cackling hyena-like all the way down."

LOS OLVIDADOS
by Matt Cale

http://www.ruthlessreviews.com/reviews.cfm/id/381/page/los_olvidados.html








Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 05, 2007, 01:23:36 AM

It was also interesting to see Madden draw on Serbia in The Saddest Music in the World, with Roderick masquerading as Gravillo the Great.


Yes, the Serbian playoff in The Saddest Music in the World was fun. The whole idea of a kinky contest from all around the world during the Depression was weird, but also "carnivalesque" both in the Mardi Gras sense...and in the way Marquez's son directed some of the episodes of the HBO series Carnivàle (2003)...

Mardi Gras in New Orleans and Latin America seems to me to be the ultimate intense magic realism blow-out going beyond film and literature.

But Carnivàle the HBO series is cool too... in the sense that it's sort of a magic realistic "moveable feast" as the carnival journeys across '30s Depression America with all the things that happen along the way...

The huge sand storm in Carnivàle was awesome...






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 05, 2007, 12:03:55 PM
But art is a lie when it fails to expose the absurdity of human existence.  Look back at art in the Middle Ages....all about beauty and man's value as a creation of God, at least if one was Catholic and could offer financial support to the Church.  Some of the monuments built on the backs of the poor still stand...Chartres, Vizelay, Notre Dame.  And what do these teach us about the nature and power of compassion?  They were built on indulgences...a religious obligation that taught the believers that even God himself had no compassion.  They were funded by greedy  textile owners who had learned that lesson quite well from corrupt popes, cardinals, priests. 

 But then we come to the Twentieth Century and the recognition of the absurdity of it all.  Yeats with his great anti-war poem, Chaplin and Lang with Modern Times and Metropolis...and over it all Picasso and his Guernica.  One thing Picasso and the cubists had to tell us....the world is mightily screwed up.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 05, 2007, 08:41:59 PM
(http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare10/los_olvidados_/los_olvidados_51.16-ff-fsf-01.jpg)
Roberto Cobo (Jaibo)

I visited Scarecrow in the university district today and added a
couple of Latin American magic realist films to my growing
collection: Luis Buñuel's Los Olvidados (1950) and Gus
Van Sant's Mala Noche (1985, Criterion).

Then at the UW Bookstore I got a copy of Aranda's biography
on Buñuel (1985) with an interesting chapter on the
Olvidados film and what happened in Mexico City... So
there seems to be a neo-realist flavor to Buñuel's imagination...
there in magical Mexico City...

My biggest fear is that like once I get into Olvidados it
will be like The Exterminating Angel (1962)...

I won't be able to get out...   
   :D :D :D



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 06, 2007, 02:14:46 AM
I suppose we moved too far in the direction of logic and science, and magical realism steers us back toward our mythological roots, so to speak.  You look at most books and movies these days and they are essentially whodunits, a kind of Forensics 101.  Look at the huge popularity of the CSI series.  Maybe one day they will have CSI: Vilnius.  American viewers have long been obsessed with courtroom dramas, dating back to the Scopes Monkey Trial (how many times has that been made into a movie) or even before to The Devil and Daniel Webster.  I think Toni Morrison deserves a lot of credit for reviving the tradition of Faulkner and giving it a distinct African element in the "unborn child."  I think Joseph Campbell also deserves credit for his wonderful book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, which Bill Moyer drew our attention too once again in his wonderful interview. The Multi-Kulti world we now live in is inspiring a new literary and cinematic look and feel and I like it very much.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on December 06, 2007, 02:20:30 AM
I agree with you, about Toni Morrison; you hit it with the "unborn child".
As well as Campbell; you know I had a stack of his popular book, they had to keep printing them to meet the demand. And now I don't have a one around the house.

Have brought something else for you to look at however.

http://www.nga.gov/programs/film/bucharest.shtm


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 06, 2007, 03:12:00 AM
Thanks for the link, maddy.  We have friends from Romania, so will have to ask about these film makers.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on December 06, 2007, 04:55:42 AM
My niece's husband is of Romanian descent and does anime for the films somewhere in L.A.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 06, 2007, 07:18:20 AM

But there might be quite a bit to discuss in a movie like Brazil....for instance, ever notice the one-legged, pregnant woman standing in the train cage while all the men take the seats?  Only way he could have pushed that image farther would have been to have all the men smoking....


I watched Brazil again last night...

You’re right about the scene with the handicapped pregnant lady standing in the crummy bus while all the men are sitting around… what a nightmare dystopian future…

Jonathan Pryce’s (Sam Lowry) only escape—the magic realism moment when he finally dies at the end of the movie… 









Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 06, 2007, 12:38:02 PM
Pugetopolis....there seems to be almost a feminist aspect about it, too.  But is it positive or negative?  Gilliam has said there is no overt feminist message, but that even he is not sure of what is going on in his subconscious. 

Gilliam gives Jill characteristics that are usually given to the male hero.  She is risking her life to fight the system, standing up for her neighbor whose husband has been a victim of bureaucratic foul ups, she dresses like a man and drives a truck.  In the last scenes, (after she has rescued Sam) we see her driving her truck, Sam in the middle of the front seat with her arm draped over his shoulder.  Then she takes him to a home which she has provided.  (Of course what really makes these final scenes interesting is that Sam is dreaming.  So the question becomes not the traditional "What do women want?", but "What do Men want?") 

Then there is the farce of the older women in their perpetual quest for youth and beauty (culminating in the funeral scene where Sam's mother and Jill are interchangeable.)

And we have Buttle's wife, apparently the more traditional model, who signs the receipt for her husband like a good little sheep. 

Cut over to Sam, who is certainly not the traditional hero figure.

By the way, who is the hero here?  Sam? Jill? Tuttle?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: oilcanboyd23 on December 06, 2007, 12:41:14 PM
Gilliam gives Jill characteristics that are usually given to the male hero. 

I read somewhere that Gilliam and Kim Griest butted heads on the set.  I don't know what the issue was - nude scene, maybe? 


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 06, 2007, 12:52:27 PM
Gilliam gives Jill characteristics that are usually given to the male hero. 

I read somewhere that Gilliam and Kim Griest butted heads on the set.  I don't know what the issue was - nude scene, maybe? 

The nude scene was pretty tasteful.  He had her dressed in a filmy negligee that was not all that revealing.  (I saw the British version...maybe the American was different?)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 06, 2007, 12:53:23 PM
I suppose we moved too far in the direction of logic and science, and magical realism steers us back toward our mythological roots, so to speak.  You look at most books and movies these days and they are essentially whodunits, a kind of Forensics 101.  Look at the huge popularity of the CSI series.  Maybe one day they will have CSI: Vilnius.  American viewers have long been obsessed with courtroom dramas, dating back to the Scopes Monkey Trial (how many times has that been made into a movie) or even before to The Devil and Daniel Webster.  I think Toni Morrison deserves a lot of credit for reviving the tradition of Faulkner and giving it a distinct African element in the "unborn child."  I think Joseph Campbell also deserves credit for his wonderful book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, which Bill Moyer drew our attention too once again in his wonderful interview. The Multi-Kulti world we now live in is inspiring a new literary and cinematic look and feel and I like it very much.

It is an interesting time.  People seem to long for their roots while looking to science to save them.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 06, 2007, 02:09:13 PM

By the way, who is the hero here?  Sam? Jill? Tuttle?


There's no hero...

It's like Las Vegas—the House always wins....





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 06, 2007, 02:33:33 PM
A hero doesn't always win....it's more about the struggle.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 06, 2007, 04:22:52 PM
(http://www.douban.com/lpic/s2601270.jpg)

Mala Noche

http://www.criterion.com/asp/release.asp?id=407

With its low budget and lush black-and-white imagery, Gus Van Sant's debut feature Mala Noche heralded an idiosyncratic, provocative new voice in American independent film. Set in Van Sant's hometown of Portland, Oregon, the film evokes a world of transient workers, dead-end day-shifters, and bars and seedy apartments bathed in a profound nighttime, as it follows a romantic deadbeat with a wayward crush on a handsome Mexican immigrant. Mala Noche was an important prelude to the New Queer Cinema of the nineties and is a fascinating time capsule from a time and place that continues to haunt its director's work.




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Urethra_Franklin on December 06, 2007, 04:24:59 PM
That movie poster is really, really gay.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 06, 2007, 04:53:32 PM
(http://koino.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/mola-noche-1.jpg)

I knew you'd like it...

The movie's even better...

Try it you might like it...

The movie that is...



 :D :D :D


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 07, 2007, 10:58:26 AM
I liked My Own Private Idaho very much as well.  I was glad to see Criterion gave it the deluxe treatment. 

(http://www.thefilmjournal.com/images/idaho.jpg)

River Phoenix came and went too soon.  But Van Sant is hit and miss.  I can't really figure out what he was trying to say in Elephant and why he felt the need to recast Psycho frame for frame, with less than inspiring performances by Vince Vaughn and Ann Hecht.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 07, 2007, 11:03:28 AM
Quote
People seem to long for their roots while looking to science to save them.

Or turning their backs completely on science, as in the case of the wonderfully tailored documentary, A Flock of Dodos,

(http://www.sho.com/site/itv/itv-assets/129643/129643_01_272w.jpg)

in which some intelligent design "scientists" actually compare the geological making of mountains to that of Mount Rushmore, claiming it is God's hand.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on December 07, 2007, 11:07:47 AM
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?storyID=9714&p=4

Another side of  "    ".


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 07, 2007, 01:14:50 PM
(http://ninglun.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/my-own-private-idaho1-thumb.jpg)

“Gus van Sant’s My Own Private Idaho, which of course is a transformation of Shakespeare’s Henry IV. Bit of a theme going there, isn’t there? Apart from nostalgia for the 1990s, that is. Pre-Bush, pre-John…” *sighs*

http://ninglun.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/new-blog-report/


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 07, 2007, 02:06:53 PM
(http://www.thewrittenwordautographs.com/images/510_1.jpg.jpg)

River Phoenix

The opening blowjob scene too much—
It must have blown a lot of people’s minds
Especially innocent naïve teeny-boppers…

But mine too reminding me of Warhol’s movie—
The blow-job one they hissed and booed at
Because that’s all Warhol showed was the face
of the young handsome hustler…

But Gus Van Sant shows more than that—
River Phoenix befriending young Portland
hustlers to get the feel for what male prostitution 
was all about back then…

Van Sant letting Phoenix and Reeves ad lib
Around the fire at night getting into male love
And what that was all about…then camping it
up with Udo Kier in the motel room—slow-mo
three-way fun and games…

Van Sant recapturing again—the immediacy of
Mala Noche boyhood—letting the impromptu
young hustler moment do its thing—giving the 
Idaho script a good rim-job…
 

http://www.gaypoetry.com/design/poetry_dis.asp?dataID=34728



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 08, 2007, 07:51:55 AM
(http://home.uchicago.edu/~jniimi/library1.jpg)

Architect haiku

—for dzimas

morning off the bay—
shining up seattle streets
thru koolhaas glass…


The Koolhaas $165 million Seattle library reminds me of the classy old time movie palaces one sees in film history books.

It’s big—and even baroque with its bigness like the photo above. It‘s not all boxed up like a tacky multiplex mall theater—with walls so thin you can hear the movie next door. It’s big with all sorts of nooks and crannies and alcoves and balconies to be alone in and read even in that bigness. With banks of flat-screen computers to read that way if you want to…lots of people there too.


(http://www.designverb.com/wp-content/images/2007/07/seattle.library.koolhaas.C.jpg)

On the outside it’s ugly and boxy like a couple of orange crates thrown together but that’s okay—the movie palace nuance in the inside is the important thing for me. The actual movie theater is this descending staircase of compartmentalized auditorium spaces which can be expanded like an accordion depending on the size of the audience all the way down from Fifth Avenue to Fourth Avenue.       

The Koolhaas library is the only modern building in Seattle that reminds me of the classic old movie theaters like the Moore Theater up toward Capitol Hill overlooking Elliott Bay. If there is such a thing as a life-as-movie experience then the Koolhaas library is it. Different than Flatscreen movie watching at home or doodling with my computer with its dinky screen at my desk…



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: liquidsilver on December 08, 2007, 05:57:52 PM
Anybody going to see The Golden Compass?  Its supposed to be a little watered down compared to the books but with the Catholic League making such a big deal about it -- its highly tempting to go see it this weekend.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 08, 2007, 06:56:57 PM
Christians hate it.  Atheists hate it.  Sounds like a must-see to me.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 08, 2007, 09:10:08 PM
(http://covers.fwis.com/images/features/bookshelves_2/bookinist.jpg)

Usually I stay home reading and watching movies during Xmas holidays with my stylish ultra Bookmobile Chair hooked up to Blockbuster and Planet Hollywood—but I might have to get off my ass and see this movie The Golden Compass... 

After all, we had a lively movie discussion about del Toro’s Pan’s Labyrinth plus we got to talk about Nicole Kidman in The Others—both movies imbued with something called Magic Realism.

I can see why religious types would object to The Golden Compass—too much Magic Realism isn’t a good thing don’t you know. Especially when Xmas shoppers would rather go to movies than cough up dough for the Church. Or read neo-Tolkienesque writers like Philip Pullman known for his “legendary atheism” in the British press:

“The trouble is that all too often in human history, churches and priesthoods have set themselves up to rule people’s lives in the name of some invisible god (and they’re all invisible, because they don’t exist) — and done terrible damage,” Pullman writes on his website.

“In the name of their god, they have burned, hanged, tortured, maimed, robbed, violated, and enslaved millions of their fellow creatures, and done so with the happy conviction that they were doing the will of God, and they would go to Heaven for it.”

http://mrschu81.wordpress.com/2007/11/24/more-schools-pull-pullman/

So maybe I'd drive down to the Mudville Mall tomorrow and watch this latest magic realist movie. It sounds interesting...



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 08, 2007, 10:42:37 PM
(http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/authphoto_110/24658_pullman_philip.gif)

Philip Pullman

What is magic realism?

The more authors I read and the more directors I watch—the less I know what “magic realism” is.

Is it del Toro’s Pan’s Labyrinth?

Is it Carpentier’s The Lost Steps?

Is it Buñuel’s Los Olvidados?

Is it Madden’s The Saddest Music in the World?

Is it Pabst’s Pandora’s Box?

Is it Lang’s Metropolis?

Is it Lynch’s Eraserhead?

Is it Van Sant’s My Own Private Idaho

All of these films we’ve looked at and discussed—but each one is different and there’s no real consensus about what magic realism is or pretends to be. Film and literary critics opine—inventing Pomo and Postcolonial theories…   

Even the writers and directors don’t know…

For example, notice what Philip Pullman says in this interview question. He can’t explain the mystery of magic realism other than saying he has to write and write and write—with the Book finally saying where have you been, we’ve been waiting for you, we’d almost given up on you????   

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21595083/

Question: “How do you imagine such an epic world in The Golden Compass? Did you look for it or did it come to you?”

Answer: “This is an interesting question, because it’s something I’ve often wondered about myself. When I’m telling a story I know, with part of my mind, that I’m making it up; but with another part of my mind, it feels as if I’m discovering something that is already there, in some mysterious way, and I’m learning about it rather than inventing it. So I can’t give you a definite answer! The one thing I do know is that if I don’t work steadily and try to write every day, no story will get written at all. So I try to do that.”

What more can a writer do but write?

What more can a reader do but read?

What more can a moviegoer do but watch…and wait?






Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 09, 2007, 01:36:34 AM
Puget,  I think Seattle has done a wonderful job with its libraries.  The main library is the jewel in the crown with its grand glass folding envelope.  I also love the Ballard library for its healthy green look.  Koolhaas is a fascinating architect, starting from his whimsical sketches of a Delirious New York,

(http://www.liberonweb.com/images/books/8843562304.jpg)

to his thoughts on  a world gone mad in Content,

(http://www.arcspace.com/books/content/1content.jpg)

I also like his Harvard Guide to Shopping,

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ASVB5224L._AA240_.jpg)

Hard to believe this is the same Harvard Design School Walter Gropius set up many years ago.  Koolhaas makes architecture fun in much the same Frank Gehry does.  It is great to see a theorist being able to do such engaging buildings.  Usually, they are unable to make the leap such as Robert Venturi who did the art museum in Seattle, which comes across flat by comparison.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 09, 2007, 01:38:19 AM
I'm looking forward to Golden Compass as well.  I have the Pullman fantasy novels and think they are first rate.  It appears they have done a grand job of creating the look and feel of the novels if nothing else.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on December 09, 2007, 12:05:02 PM
re:#931

"...we got to talk about Nicole Kidman in The Others—both movies imbued with something called Magic Realism."

The Others is standard genre occult horror movie; not Magic Realism.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 09, 2007, 12:55:30 PM
re:#931

"...we got to talk about Nicole Kidman in The Others—both movies imbued with something called Magic Realism."

The Others is standard genre occult horror movie; not Magic Realism.


(http://www.boingboing.net/_albums_i38_jimwoodring_sluggo.jpg)



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on December 09, 2007, 01:06:51 PM
Yes


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 09, 2007, 01:30:32 PM
(http://www.upress.umn.edu/images/S01/0816638071.big.gif)

Nnyhav in Latin American Literature has given our readers group   some excellent definitions of magical realism. I picked these two since they relate to The Others—how both genres bleed into each other. We’re reading Alejo Carpentier’s The Lost Steps—which segues nicely with Philip Pullman’s The Golden Compass.     

[Magical realism] takes the supernatural for granted and spends more of its space exploring the gamut of human reactions (Susan J. Napier. The Magic of Identity: Magic Realism in Modern Japanese Fiction. Magical Realism.  Ed. Zamora and Faris, p. 451).

Magical realism refers to the occurrence of supernatural, or anything that is contrary to our conventional view of reality [it is] not divorced from reality either, [and] the presence of the supernatural is often attributed to the primitive or 'magical' Indian mentality, which coexists with European rationality. Floyd Merrel explains that 'magical realism stems from the conflict between two pictures of the world'. Magical realism is thus based on reality, or a world with which the author is familiar, while expressing the myths and superstitions of the American Indians, [and it] allows us to see dimensions of reality of which we are not normally aware. (Amaryll Beatrice Chanady.  Magical Realism and the Fantastic Resolved versus Unresolved Antinomy. New York: Garland Publishing, 1985.  16-31).


http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,36.msg50367.html#msg50367





Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on December 09, 2007, 02:58:00 PM
pugetopolis


re:#931

"...we got to talk about Nicole Kidman in The Others—both movies imbued with something called Magic Realism."

The Others is standard genre occult horror movie; not Magic Realism.

]


You'll notice I did not use the term "supernatural" which is so much horse-droppings. I called it standard genre occult horror movie; almost good at that but quite often dragging while Nicole lost her grasp of reality.


what's in a name?
December 01, 2007 - Graham Greene made a distinction between his literary endeavors and the trifles he called "entertainments."
[he considered. The Third Man, a trifling entertainment]

Carol Reed did not because Produced by
Hugh Perceval ....  associate producer 
Carol Reed ....  producer 
Alexander Korda ....  producer (uncredited) 
David O. Selznick ....  producer (uncredited 

subbing for Orson? Somehow the film comes out still looking like an Orson Welles film(who is uncredited, along with Korda, for the writing). Now that is:

"Magick Realism"



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 09, 2007, 03:48:19 PM
(http://cinemexicano.mty.itesm.mx/imagenes/roberto_cobo.jpg)

Roberto Cobo (1930-2002)

We’ve been discussing magic realism here in Movie Club for awhile now—movies like del Toro’s Pan’s Labyrinth and Alejandro Amenábar’s The Others.

We also discussed some Weimar magic realism with Pabst’s Pandora’s Box and Lang’s Metropolis

But I keep returning to “lo real maravilloso americano” for some reason—Buñuel’s Los Olvidados (1950) for example and a more recent film Gus Van Sant’s Mala Noche (1985). Both are black and white realistic movies—but, well, you know Buñuel. Neo-realism has its own magic. The same with  Van Sant’s cult film Mala Noche about the Portland Oregon poet Walt Curtis and his love for young Chicano boys… The new Criterion dvd is very well done…with some excellent interviews.

Roberto Cobo (1930-2002) who plays El Jaibo in Los Olvidados had a long career in Mexican film—doing over a hundred movies. He was 20 years old when he played the nefarious young gangster in Buñuel’s Los Olvidados (1950). He reminds me of “Johnny” in Van Sant’s Mala Noche. Apparently he barely survived the 1985 Mexico City earthquake.   

Looking down over the long list of his filmography—I wish I could see more of his movies… He was an incredibly handsome young man...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0167952/




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 09, 2007, 04:20:04 PM
I've been looking at Los Olvidados...may get it after Christmas.  (Do people get to eat in this one?)

Picked up Pamuk's book of essays and there is a good one on Salmon Rushdie and Magical Realism.  Pamuk traces the roots of magical realism back to Rabelais....doesn't give details (I suppose he could fill an entire book) but I'm thinking he has in mind Gargantua and Pantagruel?  If so I would ask how Bakhtin's concept of grotesque realism might fit into the whole evolution.  (Somehow the idea always enters in here that life is carnivale....)

But as to the idea of Grotesque Realism, we know this existed at least in art as far back as the Middle Ages.

(http://vr.theatre.ntu.edu.tw/fineart/painter-wt/bruegel/bruegel-09x.jpg)

(http://www.mclink.it/personal/MH0077/IlGiardinoDeiMagi/Giardino%201/images/astori%204.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: madupont on December 09, 2007, 05:00:46 PM
Looks like: No Country for Old Men


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 09, 2007, 06:31:38 PM
(http://filmsdefrance.com/1950_Los_Olvidados.jpg)

Looks like young stuff to me...


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 09, 2007, 06:48:20 PM
(http://www.timeout.com/img/22325/w513/image.jpg)

Estela Inda and Roberto Cobo in Los Olvivados


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 09, 2007, 07:11:32 PM
(http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20041203elpepicin_5/XLCO/Ies/20041203elpepicin_5.jpg)

Roberto Cobo y Estela Inda en una escena de Los olvidados


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 10, 2007, 05:18:48 AM
(http://www.delphl.cec.eu.int/Cinema/Photos/theothe.jpg)

I do think we need to be careful how many movies we place in the "magical realism" camp.  I have to agree with maddy that The Others was good ol' fashioned Gothic, a throw-back movie that relied on suspense to keep this viewer entranced.  I thought it was one of Kidman's best efforts.  There seems to be a return to this creepy old style of movie making, but it isn't always successful like the remake of The Omen, which was absolutely chilling in its original form.  Of course, it helps having actors like Gregory Peck and Lee Remick and a little boy named Damien who you wouldn't want to have in a first grade class.  I'd like to think slasher films have run their course, but when you have Saw 4 and a remake of the original Halloween with all the gore of the latter installments, it seems slasher flicks will be around for a long way to come.  The Hollywood equivalent of "snuff" films, fulfilling that sadly voyeuristic thrill of many people to watch someone die a gruesome death, rather than ponder our fates in world that is still filled with mystery and suspense.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 10, 2007, 06:09:16 AM
(http://www.ebertfest.com/seven/saddest02a.jpg)

Notes On Feminist Magic Realism

1. I’ve been thinking about some comments you made earlier about Brazil (1985) and feminism…



Pugetopolis....there seems to be almost a feminist aspect about it, too.  But is it positive or negative?  Gilliam has said there is no overt feminist message, but that even he is not sure of what is going on in his subconscious.  
 

2. It wasn’t until later when I started getting into Buñuel’s Los Olvidados (1950) and Gus Van Sant’s Mala Noche (1985) that I realized how relevant what you said about Brazil was for me and my lifestyle—and how I watched movies…  

3. I’ve pretty much played it “straight” so far with all the films we’ve discussed here in the Movie club. There were some possible gay angles to explore with Madden’s The Saddest Music in the World (2003)—for example Sissy Boy Slap Party (1995) included in the dvd extras—but other than sharing the link I didn’t divagate too much into the camp aspects of modern New Queer Cinema.  

4. By New Queer Cinema I mean films like Mysterious Skin (2004) directed by Gregg Araki and written by Scott Heim—as well as Tarnation (2003) directed and written by Jonathan Caouette.

5. Gus Van Sant’s Mala Noche (1985) is probably the precursor for New Queer Cinema—but my “gay radar” also zeroed-in on Los Olvidados (1950) as early queer cinema as well. Probably because Roberto Cobo is so incredibly handsome and sexy.

6. Which got me into Buñuel and his sense of sexuality in films. Going thru Cobo’s filmography, l was fascinated to find out that one of his film roles was playing La Manuela—a “drag queen” in El Lugar sin limites (1978). The movie is about family honor, greed, machismo, homophobia, and the dreams of whores colliding in a small Mexican town.  

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076336/

7. El Lugar sin limites reminded me of what you said earlier about Brazil and the role Gilliam gives Jill in the movie:



Gilliam gives Jill characteristics that are usually given to the male hero.  She is risking her life to fight the system, standing up for her neighbor whose husband has been a victim of bureaucratic foul ups, she dresses like a man and drives a truck.  In the last scenes, (after she has rescued Sam) we see her driving her truck, Sam in the middle of the front seat with her arm draped over his shoulder.  Then she takes him to a home which she has provided.  (Of course what really makes these final scenes interesting is that Sam is dreaming.  So the question becomes not the traditional "What do women want?", but "What do Men want?")  


8. The funny thing about this so-called insight into my moviegoer sensibility is that it probably doesn’t have anything to do with film crit theory or New Queer Cinema. It’s more like a totally personal “gay-radar” flashback to all the films I’ve been attracted to in the past. And the ones that pop-up on the screen that interest me.

9. Earlier I quipped that maybe everybody has their own personal “magic realism” when it comes to dealing with so-called “reality.” Everybody seems to have their own “flavor” of magic realism. So that the real reason I started the movie club was to explore the magic realism I discovered in the HBO series "Carnivàle" (2003).

10. Rodrigo Garcia (son of magical-realist writer Gabriel Garcia Marquez) was one of the directors of the "Carnivàle" series. Earlier Garcia was director of photography for the Spanish TV adaptation of his father’s novel "El Verano de la Senora Forbes." That and the dvd "Carnivàle" interview and the Great Depression plot made me want to know more about this “magical realism.”

11. Beginning with Lynch’s Eraserhead (1977)—I pretty much let the Thread meander along its own way thru Pabst, Lang, del Toro, Amenábar, Kusturica and now Buñuel and Van Sant. Similar to the way we did the Faulkner Thread in Fiction—like a “jazz riff” rather than just reportage. The same with the BBB Thread in The New York Times. Riffing seems to work with poetry, prose and film—I got the idea from Ralph Ellison’s Invisible Man. As you know, he was a musician into jazz—writing the way he played...

12. For example, my personal approach to Carpentier’s The Lost Steps in Latin American Lit is basically the same—ad lib my way into the heart of darkness. Trusting dialogic imagination—to get me there…  
  


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 10, 2007, 06:35:55 AM
Earlier I quipped that maybe everybody has their own personal “magic realism” when it comes to dealing with so-called “reality.”  

I think this is very definitely true.  Tennessee Williams made a wonderful comment about the stage being black box and when the lights came on you brought the audience into your world for a brief moment in time.  The key being to hold them as long as possible.  I think the movies that work are the ones that draw deep down into the plexus, not just use tricks to keep the audience captive.  That said, what do you all think of The Master and Margarita, which I would have to think is a prime example of magical realism set in repressive Stalinist times? 

(http://images-cdn01.associatedcontent.com/150_0000028804_0000056525.jpg)

Bulgakov looking a little like the devil himself in this picture.  He certainly held me spellbound throughout the novel.  Too bad Bortov couldn't do the same in the movie.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 10, 2007, 07:34:31 AM
(http://www.stainlesssteeldroppings.com/images/others_ver1.jpg)

The Others

I have to agree with maddy that The Others was good ol' fashioned Gothic, a throw-back movie that relied on suspense to keep this viewer entranced. 

That would make an interesting discussion—whether Amenábar’s The Others is just another regular old-fashioned run-of-the-mill “ghost story” or not.

Personally I think del Toro and Amenábar are Hispanic magic realists bent on bending genres in new ways. For example, the difference between The Others and the film adaptation of Henry James’ The Turn of the Screw, i.e. The Innocents (1961), is like the difference between night and day.

I suppose one way to see the difference is the way that Amenábar uses Time in The Others—with that surprise ending when Nicole Kidman realizes she and her children are dead already and they’re passing thru a period of adjustment to that “new” condition with the help of the already dead “Servants.” 

Time gets even more complex with the “Outsiders” intruding into the not-so-typical Haunted House—through a séance conducted by the new “living” owners of the mansion and their young son whose boyish imagination senses the ghostly presence of the ghostly Dead who don’t realize they’re actually dead yet. Apparently it takes awhile according to Amenábar for the Dead to realize they’re dead and now somewhat “dearly departed”…   :)

How does this Plot compare with The Innocents? Nowhere in The Innocents is there such a vast and convoluted Labyrinth of Borgesian flashbacks like in The Others. Deborah Kerr, Peter Quint, Miles and the other characters in The Innocents seem hopelessly one-dimensional compared with Amenábar’s characters, plot and surprise ending.

The complexity and interaction between the worlds of The Living and The Dead in The Others is due to the mediation and subversion of the audience’s expectations resulting in a surprise ending that can only be called one thing—magical realism… 

Imho Amenábar’s The Others isn’t your typical Jamesian ghost story by a long shot…
     




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 10, 2007, 10:00:28 AM
(http://blogs.indiewire.com/reverseshot/archives/la_vie_en_rose_01.jpg)

Continuing in this free-floating vein, my wife and I watched La Vie en Rose the other night.  I thought it was wonderfully done, treating Edith Piaf's story through a series of reflections rather than a standard biopic.  It was beautifully filmed with a heartfelt performance by Marion Cotillard.  Quite a transformation,

(http://en.epochtimes.com/news_images/2007-6-6-marion-cotillard73742714.jpg)

I had no idea she had been in love with a prize fighter.  Jean-Pierre Martins was a little too beautiful as Marcel Cerdan, but he had the broad shoulders of hefty middleweight. 

(http://www.commeaucinema.com/images/galerie/52340_984b99ba68118dea742b37348e15c5ac.jpg)

The concert scenes are wonderfully handled and the story-telling becomes appropriately more disjointed as Piaf's world begins to fall apart.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 10, 2007, 12:20:50 PM
Feminist magic realism, gaydar, etc....we watch movies like we read books.  The viewer/reader brings self to the experience.  If a movie is totally outside a viewer's experience, that movie is not going to resonate with the viewer.  Along with bringing self to the viewing, the viewer also injects self into the viewing....He watches passively from the outside while stepping in and reacting at a visceral level.  The slasher movies Dzimas mentions perhaps speak to the fears of the viewers.  Fear of a violent world, of helplessness, fear of overwhelming anger...and the desire to overcome.   

The other side of this is Dzimas' remark on Tennessee Williams.  How does a writer reach a diverse audience?   Perhaps it goes back to Jung's idea of the collective unconscious or the shared experience of humanity that persists at the cellular level?


Dzimas, I didn't realize there was a movie of Master.  This is a book I enjoyed so much that I think I would have to pass on the movie on principle.



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 10, 2007, 01:46:29 PM
Quote
How does a writer reach a diverse audience?


I think there are more shared emotions than most people realize and a good writer or a filmmaker can reach across most cultural barriers.

Quote
Dzimas, I didn't realize there was a movie of Master.


The movie was no great shakes, hoffman.  It stretched out over 10 parts and was shown on Russian televison.  There were two or three earlier ones including a joint Yugoslavian/Italian version that was pretty bad.  The best version I have seen is a stage version in Vilnius.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 10, 2007, 03:19:34 PM
(http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare/brazil/title-uni.jpg)

Brazil (1985)


Of course what really makes these final scenes interesting is that Sam is dreaming.  So the question becomes not the traditional "What do women want?", but "What do Men want?" 


Brazil is like The Others—it has a “surprise ending ”… 

Sam is dreaming at the end of the movie. The magical realist question is how long has he been dreaming and how far back does the dreaming go?

Is the flying dream an infinite regress like holding two Borgesian mirrors up to each other and watching the corridor of images go on and on forever?

Or is the flying dream just something Sam does like daydreaming when he gets bored or is in pain with the dystopian madness around him?

Or was the whole movie up until the torture scene just a dream as well—just a part of the magic realist process that is Dreaming itself?

In other words, is Sam a reliable narrator?

Are Sam and Jill any more reliable narrators—than Nicole Kidman and her kids in The Others?

Both Brazil and The Others have "surprise endings"—when the moviegoer realizes this then everything seems to make sense.

Or is it just the beginning of seeing how magic Narrative can be—
thru imitating the dream process more and more lucidly?

Isn't that an important part of moviegoing?

Sitting in the dark—lucidly dreaming?

Suspending belief—just enough to enjoy the experience.

Isn't that magic?




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 10, 2007, 03:52:45 PM
(http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare/brazil/title-uni.jpg)

Brazil (1985)


So the question becomes not the traditional "What do women want?", but "What do Men want?" 


Perhaps the question isn’t "What do women want?"

Or "What do men want?" 

But rather what do men and women mean?

How do we give meaning to our lives like right now?

Or are we all dead already like Nicole Kidman?




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 10, 2007, 05:07:58 PM
(http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/cerdan-marcel-22.jpg)
Marcel Cerdan(the "Casablanca Clouter")

Oooh La La!!!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 10, 2007, 09:29:16 PM
Sam as a reliable narrator.  Probably less so than Kidman at the end of The Others.  Nicole understands her situation while Sam retreats further into himself. 

We could see all of Brazil as Sam's imaginings if we view it all as flashback.  Otherwise, I think the dream begins when Jack starts the information recovery...no Tuttle, no little house on the lea, no future nicely arranged by Jill so that he can continue is passive existence.

Interesting notes by Gilliam on the whole "knife-man/acid-man" business.  Gilliam said that his father had something on his ear that had to be removed and so went to the acid man who put the solution on his ear, covered it with a bandage and told him to go to the park across the street and come back in an hour.  Gilliam's father was in quite a bit of pain.  When he came back after an hour the doctor removed the covering and discovered that quite a bit of Gilliam's father ear was missing.  Makes the scene in the coffin quite a bit gorier, don't you think?

Won't be posting much after today until next Tuesday.  Going to NYC for a few days, then on to my daughter's graduation.   


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 11, 2007, 01:33:27 AM
Congratulations to your daughter, hoffman.  Our oldest daughter is in her second year of university.

The beauty of Brazil is the way Sam becomes increasingly locked into his dreams as a way to escape the torture being inflicted on him.  The whole world, even his mother, conspire against him.  I thought the transformation of his mother and how she ultimately takes on the image of his muse fascinating.  Gilliam has a wonderful way of twisting things back on themselves. 

I have Tideland and plan to watch it this week.  Has anyone else watched it?


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 11, 2007, 02:04:33 AM
(http://www.jennyday.co.uk/users/666/11984_Edith%20Piaf.jpg)

Edith Piaf - La Vie En Rose

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Oi8WnVELo



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 11, 2007, 02:22:18 AM
Édith et Marcel,

(http://boomer-cafe.net/version2/images/stories/elleseux/cerdan/1948_orly_cerdan-piaf.jpg)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085477/


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 11, 2007, 02:28:17 AM
Pugetopolis....that clip is beautiful.  Sort of has the quality of vinyl on an old phonograph.

When I was growing up, my parents had a really old victrola like the one below.  There were seven kids at that time, and we took turns winding the thing up.  Basically, you could play pops on it because the wind lasted less then twenty minutes.

http://i1.iofferphoto.com/img/item/291/673/06/o_antiques_VICTROLA.jpg

When I was 7 or 8, my two oldest sisters got an electric record players for Christmas.   Instead of winding up and listening to 78's, they could put on 33s (lot of Jerry Lewis and the Playboys) or 45s (second sister was crazy for Frankie Valley and the Four Seasons....play after play of "Sherry Baby.")  But what goes around, etc....young people today who see themselves as hip prefer vinyl to CDs or Ipod.

Dzimas...I've seen "Tideland" in my BLOCKBUSTER.  I'll have a look at it next week.  


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 11, 2007, 02:43:05 AM
Quote
Pugetopolis....that clip is beautiful.


Agreed.  Padam, Padam has always been one of my favorites,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Fj8tKui20&feature=related


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 11, 2007, 02:47:27 AM
Quote
young people today who see themselves as hip prefer vinyl to CDs or Ipod.

I find this very amusing, hoffman, since one would have to have an excellent (and should I add very expensive) amp, turntable and speakers to actually hear the difference. 

What I love about CD's is their compact quality.  I recently got a box set of Kerouac and was very dissapointed to have it come in a vinyl sized box that doesn't fit with any of my CD's even the bulky box set of Jazz in Paris CD's I have, which seems to have taken its size from the old 78's.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 11, 2007, 02:59:21 AM
Yes, I don't quite get the idea behind CD packaging.  The things are virtually indestructible and so would work quite well packed into a miniature of the old cardboard record sleeves.  Maybe the idea is that people will buy remasters when the package reminds them of buying old favorites.

I like the Padam, Padam, Padam, too.  And I think "Padam" is not translatable?  Puts me in mind of one of my all-time favorite movie scenes.  I could watch this over and again.  The words are nonsense, but he is really singing here.  And even through the schtick, he is a man of such beauty and grace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_du8fjUN0Kg&feature=related


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 11, 2007, 03:12:31 AM
Not as indestructible as one might think.  CDs and DVD's scratch pretty easily, resulting in sticking and skips not much unlike the old vinyls, which is why cardboard sleeves alone are not the best packaging.  I have a couple like this.  I like the foldout cardboard CD booklets very much, and the old-time mini-album book that Dylan did for Modern Times.  The long cases, such as Santana's and ELO's retrospectives, are also very nice, as slick photo pages are bound between the covers with the CDs fit nicely into the two ends.  Endless possibilities.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 11, 2007, 09:32:04 AM
Endless possibilities.

Listened to disk #2 of the Criterion Mala Noche boxed set last night.  The way Criterion opens up the possibilities for serious cineastes is very nice.

Criterion and the HBO Carnivàle boxed sets for both seasons are truly my favorite pastime when it comes to enjoying moviegoing—intellectual moviegoing. The interview commentaries like the one with director Garcia add to one’s understanding about magic realism in the series and many episodes are imbued with that.

I’m looking forward to further classy HBO and Criterion endeavors such as Pabst’s Pandora’s Box and Threepenny Opera. I enjoyed our discussions very much and am even more interested in Weimar film now. I’m watching Lang’s “M” this week along with some of his other work like his American movies.

One of the advantages dvd moviegoers have today is the ability to study the complete Filmography of genius directors like Pabst, Lang, Lynch and Hitchcock and see how they develop over time from film to film. It’s like studying novelists and poets over time which adds depth to my own humble day to day existence. 

As we become sophisticated electronic cineastes more and more thanks to HBO, Criterion and other dvd venues—who knows where we’ll be headed. Lynch imho is one of the more innovative directors with his dvd oeuvre expanding into experimental areas using Photoshop and other devices to enhance his vision of film.

I’m sure that Pabst and Lang if they were alive today would be doing the same thing as Lynch—embracing and extending the future of film in new and exciting ways…       


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 11, 2007, 10:58:31 AM
While it is fascinating to have the option of seeing multiple takes of one movie, editing is sometimes a good thing as in the case of Apocalypse Now, which was much better in the theatrical version than it was in Coppola's extended version.  I see they are also coming out with a multi-disc set of Blade Runner this Christmas, arguably the best science fiction movie ever made, with numerous versions including Ridley Scott's mock-up version.  Brazil likewise got the deluxe treatment a few years back.  I haven't had the patience to sit through all the versions.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 11, 2007, 11:18:22 AM
I haven't had the patience to sit through all the versions.

I have...

 :D :D :D


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 11, 2007, 11:23:19 AM
I think a director's cut is due when the studio has adversely altered a film, like they did Heaven's Gate.  It was virtually impossible to follow in its truncated studio release, but a breathtaking epic vision in Cimino's 4-hour intended version.  The same was true of Wim Wenders' Until the End of the World.  But, I was fortunate to see the version Gilliam intended in Brazil.  He had to fight very hard for that release.  Criterion includes the studio version, but I haven't watched it.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 11, 2007, 11:29:11 AM
Hi Movie Clubbers(?)!

Edith Piaf,wonderfully moving, both the real one and Cotillard.Youtube is the greatest invention.

Magic-realism,according to mb3: when the fantastic doesn´t surprise or scare anyone it is just like they are not surprised by it, merely a part of life.

Cross my heart: in LatAm real life magic-realism is a constant player.  


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 11, 2007, 12:28:15 PM
How so, Martin?



Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 11, 2007, 02:32:08 PM
Quote
Cross my heart: in LatAm real life magic-realism is a constant player. 


MB3, I heard the same thing from my Colombian girlfriend in college as well.  She said the events in 100 Years of Solitude were all very real to her.  It was hard for me to see it as anything other than fantasy.  Obviously, it has a lot to do with what you grow up with.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 11, 2007, 03:22:35 PM
There is no way I can explain it properly but crazy things, mostly ridiculous and funny or awesome happen if you keep your eyes open.Your Colombian girlfriend was right.The further you get away from Buenos Aires the more. Then there is the way you tell things.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 13, 2007, 02:47:04 AM
I've often wondered what was Gilliam's intended ending for The Fisher King.  It seemed to me that he intended Parry to die when the kids seized upon him in the street, but that the studio said no way and so Gilliam tacked on that crazy ending which gave a nice warm glow to the movie, if satiric at the same time.  All in all, I enjoy FK, especially for its fantastic performances and great cameos. 

(http://144.122.31.143/blogs/sururi/images/tom%20waits%20-%20fisher%20king.jpg)

This movie is due a special realease that sheds more light on the subject.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 13, 2007, 07:31:03 AM
A ribald and wonderful interpretation of the music from 3-Penny Opera,

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002TX9SY.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Two-Penny-Opera-Tiger-Lillies/dp/B0002TX9SY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1197548817&sr=1-2


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 14, 2007, 04:15:33 AM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002TX9SY.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)

Great songs, dzimas!!!

Biting contemporary new Weimar Satire Lyrics ...

It fucking fit my mood perfectly tonight know what I mean?


2 Penny Opera:

Piss On Your Grave

I murdered Mary,
with my stiletto heel,
I thrust it through her heart,
and laughed as she did squeal.
I murdered Joseph
in exactly the same way,
and after they buried Joseph,
I pissed upon his grave.

Pissed... pissed... pissed... pissed...

I murdered the disciples
in a frenzied knife attack,
I sneaked up behind them
and I stabbed them in the back.
I murdered John the Baptist
in exactly the same way,
and after they buried John the Baptist,
I pissed upon his grave.

Pissed... pissed... pissed... pissed...

And then I went up to Heaven,
St Peter let me in,
I stabbed St Peter
as he forgave me for my sins.
I murdered the Good Shepherd
in exactly the same way,
and after they buried the Good Shepherd,
I pissed upon his grave.

Pissed... pissed... pissed... pissed...

And then I went to God,
I went to Number One,
I murdered God,
and God, it was fun.
I murdered God
in exactly the same way,
and after they buried God,
I pissed upon his grave.

Pissed... pissed... pissed... pissed...

And then I went down to Hell,
where Satan was my friend...
But then Satan too
came to a sticky end.
I murdered Satan
in exactly the same way,
and after they buried Satan,
I pissed upon his grave.

I pissed I pissed I pissed ...




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 14, 2007, 04:30:46 AM
2 Penny Opera:

Moon Over Soho

As the moon shines over Soho,
the thieves all settle down,
and a corpse is floating downstream,
well I wonder, how it drowned.
And the moon shines on a body
and that body oozes blood;
is it Macky, with his switchblade,
or is it an act of God?
Well, the moon shines over Shoreditch
and the bells of bow did shine,
and an old dog sucks the marrow from a bone,
the human kind.
Well, the moon shines on a corpse,
and a body is unearthed;
was it Macky, with his switchblade,
or was plague or cholera the curse?
Well, the moon shines in the gutter,
and a rich man's stomach floats,
and the rich man's purse is empty,
was it Macky that made him croak?
As the moon shines over Soho,
and the thieves all settle down,
and a corpse is floating downstream,
well I wonder, how it drowned.
Well it's... Macky
back in town.




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 14, 2007, 04:44:29 AM
Glad you enjoyed it, puget!  Recently heard The Tiger Lillies in Vilnius.  What a treat! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JwA0c8aLno&feature=related

An intoxicating blend of cabaret, circus and just plain ribald songs.  Their tribute to Gorey, with Kronos accompanying them, is not to be passed up,

(http://bp3.blogger.com/_4tfldNjTxTI/RpKds5bcETI/AAAAAAAAAE4/MfYH2xP_eFo/s320/The+Tiger+Lillies-The+Gorey+End.jpg)


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Dzimas on December 18, 2007, 07:29:10 AM
(http://img5.allocine.fr/acmedia/rsz/434/x/x/x/medias/nmedia/18/36/07/12/18660030.jpg)

Watched Princess Mononoke last night.  Impressive, to say the least.  Our little daughter sat enthralled in the story next to me.  All sorts of questions afterward, which is the way it should be.  I thought it was simply fantastic the way Miyazaki dealt with the idea of the Forest God.  The only thing disconcerting was the overly Americanized dialog (I see Neil Gaiman is credited for it) and voices such as Billy Bob Thornton as Jigo.


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 18, 2007, 12:19:44 PM
(http://www.criterion.com/content/images/featured_dvd/414_feature_350x180.jpg)

Dzimas and Hoffman—

Got a copy of Two-Lane Blacktop (1971) last night—Xmas shopping at Scarecrow Cinema in the University District…

Adding it to my choice criterion collection—something a little different to add some macho “realism” to my so-called “magic realism” routine lately…

That del Toro Borges Carpenter Saramago el realismo mágico y lo «real maravilloso» gang—they can he so demanding… 

 :D :D :D
 
“Drag racing east from L.A. in a souped-up '55 Chevy are the wayward Driver and Mechanic (singer/songwriter James Taylor and the Beach Boys' Dennis Wilson, in their only acting roles), accompanied by a tagalong Girl (Laurie Bird). Along the way, they meet Warren Oates's Pontiac GTO-driving wanderer and challenge him to a cross-country race—the prize: their cars' pink slips. Yet no summary can do justice to the existential punch of Two-Lane Blacktop. Maverick director Monte Hellman’s stripped-down narrative, gorgeous widescreen compositions, and sophisticated look at American male obsession make this one of the artistic high points of 1970s cinema, and possibly the greatest road movie ever made.”

http://www.criterion.com/asp/release.asp?id=414




Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: Lhoffman on December 18, 2007, 09:18:18 PM
Two-Lane Blacktop....don't know this film, but it sounds like a lot of fun!


Title: Re: Movie Club
Post by: pugetopolis on December 18, 2007, 10:17:30 PM

Nine Views of River Phoenix
for Gus Van Sant


(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/307/713/307713fa-6486-4a75-a7da-e09f3f915b5b) (http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/ff2/f8f/ff2f8fdf-82cf-4fce-88d0-922d2f1fe876) (http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/2e8/d0d/2e8d0daa-4451-4b1f-8060-b0e6f01b94aa)
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/f26/ae1/f26ae100-9017-4d5b-8aa5-73ecb81c18a6) (http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/1e0/d06/1e0d0672-188f-4f69-9086-3399a3002592) (http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/3fb/106/3fb106d2-bc3f-4e59-b667-f848bb38c920)
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/931/869/93186904-b64e-4256-911f-d11d9bac9203) (http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/