Escape from Elba

Books => Meander Where You May => Topic started by: Admin on April 16, 2007, 08:46:57 PM



Title: Meander Where You May
Post by: Admin on April 16, 2007, 08:46:57 PM
Discuss any literary topic that strikes your fancy.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on April 22, 2007, 03:37:31 AM
Where are all the old messages (that were posted before the reorganization) of the Elba site?  Um, this is not literary, but where is the "Food" discussion?  You know, the one for talking about food and its preparation and such matters as might be raised in that regard.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: prairiepop on April 22, 2007, 08:52:16 AM
Yo, donotremove!  Had the same problem--where's the OLD stuff, said I...well, I bookmarked the old site and kept it, have bookmarked/icon'd the new one, and can can check who's being outrageous on the old site whilst [don't you love that elegance?] waiting for things to mulch up in the new one.  Sigh.  Good question for the webmaster/admin, tho, is will any of the old site stuff be transferred onto the new?  Will all of it disappear?  Good suggestion about the Foodie topic, probably admin will start folding in some golden oldies topics...but don't you love the style blox? Say yes! Written in letters of fire!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Admin on April 22, 2007, 09:02:28 AM
I can bring back the food and dining section.  There didn't seem to be much interest at the time so I didn't migrate it, but I can certainly bring it back. 

I'm going to try to export messages from the other forum but because the ciphers were incompatible, I need members to re-register here so I can try to tie the posts with the member


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: prairiepop on April 22, 2007, 03:51:21 PM
Good thinking, admin!  Once more of us have re-registered, you can become the Great Mover and shift some of the nuggets we dug up...?  On second thought [Maybe not ALL of 'em from National, OK?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: liquidsilver on April 22, 2007, 08:11:48 PM
I will see how easily I can make the migration -- I'm not really sure on the feasibility yet.  If you want to look at the old forum, you can see it here:

http://www.escapefromelba.com/forums2/

I'll wipe it out eventually but for the time being I'll leave it up until I figure out whether I can export the data or not without corrupting this database


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 22, 2007, 10:56:58 PM
Liquidsilver -- by the way, were you ever known by another name on the old Meander?  Thanks for link to old Exiles.



whiskeypriest


Posts: 125
Joined: April 5, 2007
Group: Members
April 20, 2007 @ 12:30 PM
QUOTE:
On the whole, a slow reader as always.
By the way, how you coming on A Frolic of One's Own?



Whiskey -- a quick search indicates it remains on my shelf. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 22, 2007, 11:00:57 PM
Is it still possible to reply to a particular post?  I wanted to greet donotremove, a familiar name, but find no "reply" on his/her post.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on April 23, 2007, 11:48:28 AM
Teddy, I don't understand all I know about it, but I think this (here, now, where I'm writing and appearing) is a "thread" started by the administrator.  You just go to the bottom of the present posts and click on "reply" (far left).  I do not know how to start a new thread (I hate these thread things, anyway).  Regardless of all that tech stuff, a big Texas Howdy to my favorite Canadian.  I mostly lurk but I'm just delighted that you're "around."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on April 23, 2007, 11:52:06 AM
Liquidsilver -- by the way, were you ever known by another name on the old Meander?  Thanks for link to old Exiles.



whiskeypriest


Posts: 125
Joined: April 5, 2007
Group: Members
April 20, 2007 @ 12:30 PM
QUOTE:
On the whole, a slow reader as always.
By the way, how you coming on A Frolic of One's Own?



Whiskey -- a quick search indicates it remains on my shelf. 
liq was always liq, but he pretty much was confined to the sports forums, I think.

Oddly, Frolic is in one of the boxes of books in my basement, the bookmark firmly implanted at page 47.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: liquidsilver on April 23, 2007, 11:55:58 AM
Is it still possible to reply to a particular post?  I wanted to greet donotremove, a familiar name, but find no "reply" on his/her post.

You can use the quote button which will dump the post that you are responding to in the editor as a quote.

You can also click the 'messages icon' to the left of the subject.  This works best if someone else has called their message by a different subject as it will put a 're:' in front of the subject of your post's reply -- if that makes any sense.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on April 23, 2007, 12:11:49 PM
Is it still possible to reply to a particular post?  I wanted to greet donotremove, a familiar name, but find no "reply" on his/her post.

You can use the quote button which will dump the post that you are responding to in the editor as a quote.

You can also click the 'messages icon' to the left of the subject.  This works best if someone else has called their message by a different subject as it will put a 're:' in front of the subject of your post's reply -- if that makes any sense.
Would it be at all possible to make the font on the quoted posts any smaller?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on April 23, 2007, 01:21:18 PM
woweee wow!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: prairiepop on April 23, 2007, 04:29:53 PM
Yo desdemona!  move IT move IT move IT


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 23, 2007, 08:47:08 PM
Teddy, I don't understand all I know about it, but I think this (here, now, where I'm writing and appearing) is a "thread" started by the administrator.  You just go to the bottom of the present posts and click on "reply" (far left).  I do not know how to start a new thread (I hate these thread things, anyway).  Regardless of all that tech stuff, a big Texas Howdy to my favorite Canadian.  I mostly lurk but I'm just delighted that you're "around."

Donot -- I have my answer from Liquid Silver -- it's the Quote button!  What an astonishing array of formatting buttons -- including all the expressive face icons Meander went to battle over a few years ago!  :o


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 23, 2007, 08:50:37 PM
Is it still possible to reply to a particular post?  I wanted to greet donotremove, a familiar name, but find no "reply" on his/her post.

You can use the quote button which will dump the post that you are responding to in the editor as a quote.

You can also click the 'messages icon' to the left of the subject.  This works best if someone else has called their message by a different subject as it will put a 're:' in front of the subject of your post's reply -- if that makes any sense.

Liquidsilver -- thanks again!  This is an amazing achievement -- the whole thing.  I only hope you're not psrain -- but Whiskey assures me you're mainly a denizen of the Sports forums = by the way, the Vancouver Canucks seventh game against Texas Stars (Donotremove -- that's your team) tonight and the way they've been playing, may well lose in this first battle of the Stanley Cup Playoffs.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 23, 2007, 08:53:30 PM
Liquidsilver -- by the way, were you ever known by another name on the old Meander?  Thanks for link to old Exiles.



whiskeypriest


Posts: 125
Joined: April 5, 2007
Group: Members
April 20, 2007 @ 12:30 PM
QUOTE:
On the whole, a slow reader as always.
By the way, how you coming on A Frolic of One's Own?



Whiskey -- a quick search indicates it remains on my shelf. 
liq was always liq, but he pretty much was confined to the sports forums, I think.

Oddly, Frolic is in one of the boxes of books in my basement, the bookmark firmly implanted at page 47.

Ha -- just where you left it.  To re-cap -- inspired by your moving eulogy to the writer and that book, I began it thinking you'd long since finished -- only when I painfully stalled and shamefacedly fessed up, did you mention you'd never finished it either.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 23, 2007, 09:00:33 PM
woweee wow!

Des -- reading you is always a very moving experience.

Next post will be literature oriented or I won't post at all.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 23, 2007, 09:13:20 PM
woweee wow!

Des -- reading you is always a very moving experience.

Next post will be literature oriented or I won't post at all.





Happy Birthday VN.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 23, 2007, 10:35:15 PM
Hey there,Teddy,Whiskey,Donot,Des and other old timers.Thanks Jenn!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 23, 2007, 10:40:12 PM
Hey there,Teddy,Whiskey,Donot,Des and other old timers.Thanks Jenn!

Ahoy, Bo -- Welcome aboard! .. (Canucks 1 - Star 1)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 23, 2007, 10:54:38 PM
How does one come in on the last post viewed.One of the things I missed most in my exile was The monthly book nomination with Whiskey.I longed to post"The Stray Shopping Carts of Eastern North America" as a non-fiction choice.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 23, 2007, 11:29:54 PM
How does one come in on the last post viewed.One of the things I missed most in my exile was The monthly book nomination with Whiskey.I longed to post"The Stray Shopping Carts of Eastern North America" as a non-fiction choice.

Re coming in on last post, I don't know how to do that either Bo -- there's a "last" button that will take to you to last, but I find when I post it goes back to the main board and have to click Meander and then last I think it is.  Liquid Silver may be able to answer.

Ever read anything by Kingsley Amis? 

Cheers and back to the game.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 23, 2007, 11:47:08 PM
Just Martin his son.I got into this series by Alan Furst who writes these very atmospheric pre WW2 novels that take place in Europe.Not deep in plot but wonderful in settings and mood.I turned Eireman onto them in another forum.Also just finished up the more obscure Edith Wharton Novels.Since leaving the NYTimes forums I joined a Yahoo and Google group.Started a Yahoo group for my male high school buddies and started a Blog .Read some WW2 flyboy history "Masters of the Air" a collection of H.P. Lovecraft per eiremans reccomendation.Also read the whole"Flashman Series" which is is a warped way to read British History but wicked fun and  I still have a large pile of unreads.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 24, 2007, 12:06:46 AM
Hey Bingle! I was wondering what happened to you in Yahoo.Yes there was one Flashman movie made that  was based on one of the early books where Bismark blackmails him into impersonating The Crown Prince of Denmark.As I recall the actor who portrayed Flashman I thought an odd choice.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 24, 2007, 12:15:20 AM
Bingle the movie was "Royal Flash" from 1975 and I'm pretty sure that was book 2.Malcolm McDowell played Sir Harry Flashman.I have never seen it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on April 24, 2007, 02:05:55 AM
Howdy, Bo.  I'm a Furst fan, too.

Teddy, what was the score?  I was watching the "Planet Earth" series re broadcast on the Science Channel (playing catchup from not getting to see it Sunday night on the Discovery Channel since I was watching "Bleak House" on PBS, which has a thousand characters and I can't keep track of hardly anybody.)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 24, 2007, 02:32:43 AM
It was 4-1 Vancouver and from the pics I saw online it looks like they wore the retro original Canucks uniform with the blue/green and just the hockey stick as the logo.Another old NYTimes poster Anna turned me onto Siegfried Lenz recently.She read his novel "The Good German" in german but my used bookstore had a collection of his short stories in English"The Selected Stories of Siegfried Lenz." It's divided into sections the first being formulatic stuff about life under one man rule.One or two of those were okay but the other three sections are more traditional stories of village life and life at the end of WW2.Some are slyly humorus some very beautiful.After reading the short stories I want to read the novel which looks like it is from the view of the son of a Nazi Official in Northern Germany in a smaller town.The son is not as enamored of the Nazi way as his father and some others are.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on April 24, 2007, 08:52:52 AM
Good morning, everyone, and howdy, bosox.  I'm experimenting with the various formatting options.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on April 24, 2007, 08:54:48 AM
Would anyone be up for a discussion of something by Gunther Grass, now that it looks like we can actually talk books in Meander again?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on April 24, 2007, 05:29:39 PM
Bosox, that title "The Good German" seems to ring a bell.  Hasn't a movie recently come out with that title?  Same Siegfried Lenz?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 24, 2007, 06:27:31 PM
Donot,Thats the reason I keep typing the wrong name in.Lenzs book is in fact"The German Lesson" and is from 1968."The Good German" is the movie of recent vintage I keep confusing it with.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 25, 2007, 01:22:44 AM
How does one add a pic under ones name?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on April 25, 2007, 10:43:15 AM
I see much of the gang is here.  Seems like a much more fun place than the NYTimes, where the forums have become a mere shadow of their former selves, yet a discussion still lingers on Lolita.  I like all the cool stuff you can choose from.  In regard to The Planet Earth, DNR, I just got the delux box set from BBC which includes The Blue Planet as well.  9 CDs in all.  Great why to introduce the kids to this wonderful planet we live on.  My eldest daughter seemed to get a lot of food for thought out of The Inconvenient Truth.  I'll be giviing a powerpoint presentation on sustainable design tomorrow before a group of real estate developers and contractors in Vilnius.  It will be interesting to see how it goes.  Great to see your words again Teddy.  Missed you over at the Times Lounge.  Also, good to see Bo, Whiskey, Des and others.  Thanks Liquid for setting up these forums.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on April 25, 2007, 10:47:50 AM
Welcome, dzimas.  Not sure where else you are checking in here, but I wonder of you've given any thought to the possibility that, if the Heat gets swept by the Bulls, they may be coach hunting in the offseason....

bo -

If you see that small blue button that says profile, and click on it, it should give you the edit profile option.  There's a box to c&p a url for a picture.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on April 25, 2007, 10:55:56 AM
Yea, whiskey, the Gators better hurry up and sign Donovan to a contract.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on April 25, 2007, 10:57:56 AM
120 trillion miles is a long way, but it sure most be exciting to discover a planet that may support life:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070425/ap_on_sc/habitable_planet


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: sgrobin on April 25, 2007, 11:04:32 AM
Dzimas, hey - good to see you resurface.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: jbottle on April 25, 2007, 06:50:44 PM
Yeah, but that's just a "planet," that we can percieve using our crude "science," whether there is life there or "intelligent life" is just, like, some kind of theory.  Sure, we could send out a rocket, but it would get there long after our sun has gone down, and any "time capsule" with episodes of "Three's Company," different formulas about math and science, a Rubic's cube, a pet rock, and a few Trojans would probably be taken out by asteroids, or burn up due to unexpected heat, or, what if, when we got there, they had already gotten all the episodes from "Three's Company" from an "Alternate Reality," but, what if they were like, "Cool.  I don't think we have anything from season three." 

It's most definitely exciting but I remain skeptical.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Burningcoal on April 25, 2007, 11:20:20 PM
Donot,Thats the reason I keep typing the wrong name in.Lenzs book is in fact"The German Lesson" and is from 1968."The Good German" is the movie of recent vintage I keep confusing it with.

The Good German is be Joseph Kanon. George Clooney made (and starred in) the movie, which was done in black-and-white to match the Euro-retro-noir subject. (I haven't read the book or seen the movie, but I've been told that the book is an engaging read although not necessarily high art.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Burningcoal on April 25, 2007, 11:26:26 PM

Ever read anything by Kingsley Amis? 


Hi Teddy! I read Lucky Jim a LONG time ago and thought it was hilarious. Did you see there's a new biography of Amis that's been getting praised all over the place? (Amis was great friends with Philip Larkin.)

Can you or someone else direct me to the bar here? I could really use a drink...


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Burningcoal on April 25, 2007, 11:49:26 PM
Also, I was the fan of Gaddis who kept trying (and failing) to get his A Frolic Of His Own read by others--can't recall what was so off-putting about it to others, but I was probably obnoxious in some way.   
I'm sure it was the book, not you. Isn't it full of endless minutiae about a lawsuit involving a piece of public sculpture in a city park, or something like that? I think I made it past Whiskeypriest's page 47, but probably not much further than that. I think it's safe to say I was missing something, because I know a few people who just LOVE that book..


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 25, 2007, 11:57:08 PM

Ever read anything by Kingsley Amis? 


Hi Teddy! I read Lucky Jim a LONG time ago and thought it was hilarious. Did you see there's a new biography of Amis that's been getting praised all over the place? (Amis was great friends with Philip Larkin.)

Can you or someone else direct me to the bar here? I could really use a drink...


Ha - a person after Amis's own heart.  It was the article on the new biography reviewed by Adam Gopnik in the New Yorker, in fact, that prompted me to ponder of what I'd read of his years ago -- I think Lucky Jim.  Might take another look.  Interesting to read Gopnik's analysis of the difference between Brit humour and American humour.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 25, 2007, 11:58:40 PM
Howdy, Bo.  I'm a Furst fan, too.

Teddy, what was the score?  I was watching the "Planet Earth" series re broadcast on the Science Channel (playing catchup from not getting to see it Sunday night on the Discovery Channel since I was watching "Bleak House" on PBS, which has a thousand characters and I can't keep track of hardly anybody.)

Donot -- as Bo says it was 4-1 -- though 2 were on an empty net left by the excellent goalie Turko.

Now, however, they're a playing a different sort of Team - the powerful, offensive team - the Anaheim Ducks and it's been predicted they will be beaten in five games.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 26, 2007, 12:00:22 AM
I'm an old timer too, bosox, as bingledue & blingledue (and even bingleduetoo in Meander2 'til theft of laptop put me out of that group--can't do yahoo or google groups at work, can hardly get PC time from kid at home).  I was also a Flashman fan (late '70s, as I recall) and still can't figure why there isn't a whole series of movies based on same (wasn't there one?)

P.S. Very first line after Hello is "Last unread posts since last visit."

P.P.S.  Wonder if they really have to put "total time"--could make one think of it as time wasted.

 

Bingle/Blingledue!  (Didn't quite recognize you with new name..)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 26, 2007, 12:03:29 AM
Whiskey,Is there any way to move a pic from my documents into that spot.I just firured out how to do these things in my blog and now this.Maybe I'll look for a pic with a shorter URL.Teddy I'm getting the Ducks-Canucks on a local station from down in Orange County.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 26, 2007, 12:15:52 AM
Also, I was the fan of Gaddis who kept trying (and failing) to get his A Frolic Of His Own read by others--can't recall what was so off-putting about it to others, but I was probably obnoxious in some way.    I've only now gotten to my second Gaddis, Carpenter's Gothic, which I posted about in Fiction.  Still have The Recognitions to look forward to.  

  

NY - Profuse apologies but I can't remember you recommending Gaddis! -- I'm thinking of about 1999 when Whiskey had just noted in I think the Books Suggestions forum - possiby pre-Meander - that he'd read an obit of Gaddis and went on to talk about Frolic -- anyway, I didn't read too clearly. 

I did try it and at that time there was a discussion on punctuation as it occurs in fiction through the centuries and Laurence Sterne's use of the dash was talked about -- and Gaddis likewise used nothing but dashes for punctuation.  It was, as (shoot -- Ducks just scored on the weary Canucks yet again) - noted above, a tale of a lawsuit and minute legal ins and outs -- but I only got to about page ten.

Bleak House also is a tale of legal ins and outs but mainly encapsulated in first sentence -- then on to the story.

No offence to Gaddis -- I'm pretty certain the lack was in self.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 26, 2007, 12:18:47 AM
Teddy the name Adam Gopnick rang a bell and indeed he is the author of"Paris to the Moon" about his and his familys years in Paris when he wrote "Paris Journal" for The New Yorker.If I'm not mistaken he has written one recently about his New York neighborhood of recent years.I actually picked up last weeks copy of The New Yorker cause a friend said the article on Manny Ramirez was interesting and it was.I loved the cartoon about the Shotgun Bar Mitzvah.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 26, 2007, 12:20:11 AM
Whiskey,Is there any way to move a pic from my documents into that spot.I just firured out how to do these things in my blog and now this.Maybe I'll look for a pic with a shorter URL.Teddy I'm getting the Ducks-Canucks on a local station from down in Orange County.

Bo - It's pretty sad so far and to add insult to injury some jerk down the hall blows a horn everytime the Ducks score and yells "go Ducks" (wise guy I guess).

If I were to make excuses, I'd say the Ducks were very well rested, whereas the Canucks only had one day to rest after gruelling seven game series.  But I don't make excuses -- by all logical accounting the Ducks will win, and indeed look to handily take this first game.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 26, 2007, 12:25:08 AM
Teddy the name Adam Gopnick rang a bell and indeed he is the author of"Paris to the Moon" about his and his familys years in Paris when he wrote "Paris Journal" for The New Yorker.If I'm not mistaken he has written one recently about his New York neighborhood of recent years.I actually picked up last weeks copy of The New Yorker cause a friend said the article on Manny Ramirez was interesting and it was.I loved the cartoon about the Shotgun Bar Mitzvah.

(What's excellent about these new forums is the allowance for editing -- I've managed to nip in and clean up a couple of things after posting in the last few seconds -- )

Bo-  I always enjoy Gopnik's writing as well as of course movie critics Anthony Lane and David Denby.  There's another writer == Jane Kramer is one of my favorite contributors to the NY  - most recent article "The Pope and Islam".

I'm going to have to thumb through to find the cartoon - can't remember seeing it!

On the books front, there was an indepth article on deceased Chilean writer Roberto Bolano's "The Savage Detectives" by Daniel Zalewski (I'm checking as I write this).  If I'm going to read a new writer - it may well be him if I can find the book.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 26, 2007, 12:30:21 AM
Well Clean my Pigsty! The issue I have is the Adam Gopnick on Kinglsley Amis one.I just picked it up two days ago and have only read the Manny story so far.I was busy finishing Edith Wharton  last night.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 26, 2007, 12:35:31 AM
Well Clean my Pigsty! The issue I have is the Adam Gopnick on Kinglsley Amis one.I just picked it up two days ago and have only read the Manny story so far.I was busy finishing Edith Wharton  last night.

Bo -- Well I think you might enjoy that article!

Excellent that you're reading Wharton -- an author I've never read.

Well, time to log off and lick wounds re this game -

I note that I was inadvertently logged on for a couple of hours while watching the game -- and it advises every (just scored again - dagger in heart) one how long each individual has been logged on -- I wonder if LiquidSilver could kindly remove that shaming feature.

5-1 first game defeat.  Vancouver must re-group.

Goodnight.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on April 26, 2007, 10:59:38 AM
Bosox, I credit Gopnik's "Paris to the Moon" for most of what I know about the French (along with "Fifty million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong".)  I read the New Yorker online and always read anything Gopnik writes, and am never disappointed.

When I click "next" I am taken to the end of the next page of posts, not the beginning.  Of course I'm still learning my way around this site.  Perhaps I'm doing something wrong.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 26, 2007, 11:04:11 PM
All those emoticans have been red x's the past two days on my screen also Bingle.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 26, 2007, 11:28:40 PM
Teddy; I didn't mean to imply that I brought up Gaddis & A Frolic Of His Own
first, but I do remember my enthusiasm about it and being surprised at the general  lack of same...no matter, I can see how Gaddis's writing can be off-putting because one must always, always read between the lines, which are usually lines of dialog that proceed by stagger--people going from thought to thought in incomplete sentences, interrupting themselves, etc.  In Frolic  much of the story of a man who ended up suing himself had to be gleaned from parsing fictional court documents, even a Supreme Court decision.  I thought it was all a splendid joke on lawyers and the law that I wanted to share. 

The beauty of the ever-proliferating web is that one can always find somewhere others who want to follow any particular thread.  (I was, and am, also a fan of Barbara Kingsolver...'nuf sed about that!)

Condolences of the athletic variety...






NY -- Well - you've inspired me again to read it -- I've got the same pleasant to the touch soft back - and now at bedside again.  I think key may be to making it through to 1/4 point and then free sailing.





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 26, 2007, 11:30:37 PM
Oy, Teddy (smacking my forehead)  I can't see the pix next to "Smiley" "Wink" etc., but if you can, please apply "Embarrassed" to me! It took me until this afternoon to realize that at the time Gaddis & Frolic were being discussed, I had a different screen name--no wonder no one recalls me that far back.  (Choosing to believe that's the only reason...)

Dunno if it had anything to do with b'day observance, but last night's final Jeopardy! answer was "Nabokov"--all 3 contestants got it right, all 3 misspelled it.  (Clue had to do with him teaching the works of his countrymen at Cornell.) 



NY -- I think you're being more than a bit hard on yourself .  Regardless of name -- had you recommended this in MWM I should remember.  The key is -- had you by any other name recommended it in any other forum but MWM -- I may well not have seen.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 26, 2007, 11:31:45 PM
Oy, Teddy (smacking my forehead)  I can't see the pix next to "Smiley" "Wink" etc., but if you can, please apply "Embarrassed" to me! It took me until this afternoon to realize that at the time Gaddis & Frolic were being discussed, I had a different screen name--no wonder no one recalls me that far back.  (Choosing to believe that's the only reason...)

Dunno if it had anything to do with b'day observance, but last night's final Jeopardy! answer was "Nabokov"--all 3 contestants got it right, all 3 misspelled it.  (Clue had to do with him teaching the works of his countrymen at Cornell.) 



Just found this ... http://www.williamgaddis.org/frolic/index.shtml


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on April 27, 2007, 07:41:46 AM
Good to see you too, grobin.  I've been catching some of the NBA games, if I'm up that early in the morning.  The West Coast games better suit my timetable.  Much of the buzz here in Vilnius surrounds Chicago and Clevelend, where Songaila and Ilgauskas play.  Kleiza, another Lithuanian, plays for Denver. 

Bookwise, I started Murakami's Underground, but haven't really gotten into it yet.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on April 27, 2007, 07:48:06 AM
Well I'll be damned, I see that Songaila is a Wizard now. Shows you how much I've been keeping up with the NBA.  Chicago picked up the tall lanky Andriuskevicius.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on April 27, 2007, 08:19:47 AM
Teddy; I didn't mean to imply that I brought up Gaddis & A Frolic Of His Own
first, but I do remember my enthusiasm about it and being surprised at the general  lack of same...no matter, I can see how Gaddis's writing can be off-putting because one must always, always read between the lines, which are usually lines of dialog that proceed by stagger--people going from thought to thought in incomplete sentences, interrupting themselves, etc.  In Frolic  much of the story of a man who ended up suing himself had to be gleaned from parsing fictional court documents, even a Supreme Court decision.  I thought it was all a splendid joke on lawyers and the law that I wanted to share. 
Splendid joke on lawyers, eh?  Careful - it doesn't cost us anything to sue the likes of you!

I abandoned Frolic in large measure because it was starting to look very much like a busman's holiday.

The beauty of the ever-proliferating web is that one can always find somewhere others who want to follow any particular thread.  (I was, and am, also a fan of Barbara Kingsolver...'nuf sed about that!)
Oooh!  Wonder if the mention of The Scottish Author will have the same effect here.  Do you really think it is a coinkidink that as soon as we started seriously considering a discussion of one of her books the NYT closed down everything?  The whole of the forums, kingsolvered at one fell swoop.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on April 27, 2007, 08:21:30 AM
Oy, Teddy (smacking my forehead)  I can't see the pix next to "Smiley" "Wink" etc., but if you can, please apply "Embarrassed" to me! It took me until this afternoon to realize that at the time Gaddis & Frolic were being discussed, I had a different screen name--no wonder no one recalls me that far back.  (Choosing to believe that's the only reason...)

Dunno if it had anything to do with b'day observance, but last night's final Jeopardy! answer was "Nabokov"--all 3 contestants got it right, all 3 misspelled it.  (Clue had to do with him teaching the works of his countrymen at Cornell.) 


What screen name were you using?  I don't recall anything before bilingualdude.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on April 27, 2007, 09:53:38 AM
<b>Oooh!  Wonder if the mention of The Scottish Author will have the same effect here.  Do you really think it is a coinkidink that as soon as we started seriously considering a discussion of one of her books the NYT closed down everything?  The whole of the forums, kingsolvered at one fell swoop.</b>

Har!  You're right!  The Kingsolvering to end all Kingsolvering.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on April 27, 2007, 09:57:10 AM
Whoops! My HTML tags didn't work.  Didn't want to quote ALL of whiskey's post, which included two other quotes within it.  The only place I see to post now is "Quick Reply", and it doesn't have formatting.  Oh well, no big deal.

TGIF!  I am making an offer on a house this weekend!  First home other than the little house I shared with my blighted ex many years ago.  This is such a buyer's market, folks.  My head is spinning with thought of what all that property will require just for upkeep.  Also needs thousands of dollars worth of landscaping, but will do that gradually. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on April 27, 2007, 10:05:00 AM
Format using [].


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Burningcoal on April 27, 2007, 11:39:26 PM

TGIF!  I am making an offer on a house this weekend!  First home other than the little house I shared with my blighted ex many years ago.  This is such a buyer's market, folks.  My head is spinning with thought of what all that property will require just for upkeep.  Also needs thousands of dollars worth of landscaping, but will do that gradually. 

Congratulations, assuming it all works out. But where are you that this is such a buyer's market? Around here it seems like things are taking a bit longer to sell, but prices haven't really dropped much.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: jbottle on April 28, 2007, 12:31:55 AM
The plain reason Gaddis sucks is that lawyers can't write worth a shit.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on April 28, 2007, 12:35:48 AM

TGIF!  I am making an offer on a house this weekend!  First home other than the little house I shared with my blighted ex many years ago.  This is such a buyer's market, folks.  My head is spinning with thought of what all that property will require just for upkeep.  Also needs thousands of dollars worth of landscaping, but will do that gradually. 

Congratulations, assuming it all works out. But where are you that this is such a buyer's market? Around here it seems like things are taking a bit longer to sell, but prices haven't really dropped much.

I live in the Atlanta, Georgia area.  I  am buying in a little hick town called Dallas that is still considered part of metro Georgia.  

I say it is a buyer's market because here it is.  There are thousands of new houses in inventory everywhere.  Anyway, I found a house that was completely rebuilt after a fire  - literally everything is brand new and built to very good standard, but it is on about a 3/4 acre lot that is just beautiful.  It's on a slope, and there are thousands of dollars worth of retaining walls built on the property, but the grounds are not in good shape.  But, we will make that a continuing project.  The house itself is a real find and I'm going to see what I can get away with.  


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on April 28, 2007, 12:36:42 AM
The plain reason Gaddis sucks is that lawyers can't write worth a shit.

Shhshhhshhh....don't say that in front of whiskey.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on April 28, 2007, 02:25:33 AM
I see that the Sunday book review has one on a new bio by Edith Wharton.I read a lot of Wharton the past two years but Bios rarely interest me much.Maybe in this case.Anyhoo the last two Wharton novels I read were lesser ones"Twilight Sleep" which I think is the lest of any Wharton I have read so far.Just seemed disjointed though it is still better than most writers today and the one I just finished"Mother's Recompense" which I really liked.Much more like a Wharton Novel like"Custom of the Country","The House of Mirth" etc.Now I've pulled "Iceland's Bell" by Halldor Laxness out of the pile.I read his Nobel Prize winning"Independent People" a few years back and was surprised how well written it was.Nnyhav where ever he is of late mentioned it a year or so ago.I like the new novel fine so far but am somewhat let down I am 50 pages plus into an Icelandic novel and not one sheep has been mentioned or eaten though shoes and shoelaces have been talked about as dinner fare.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 28, 2007, 11:11:17 AM

I say it is a buyer's market because here it is.  There are thousands of new houses in inventory everywhere.  Anyway, I found a house that was completely rebuilt after a fire  - literally everything is brand new and built to very good standard, but it is on about a 3/4 acre lot that is just beautiful.  It's on a slope, and there are thousands of dollars worth of retaining walls built on the property, but the grounds are not in good shape.  But, we will make that a continuing project.  The house itself is a real find and I'm going to see what I can get away with.  

Congratulations Des!  I'm a bit bitterly envious as here it's a sellers market and the apartment I sold for less than I bought it a few years ago, having been told no one would pay more for such a place, I note is now going for about twice as much.  Housing prices have spiked in Vancouver to a ridiculous degree, so that fairly modest houses sell for a million dollars and so on.  I must remain contented to rent until lottery win.

Exciting news for you, though - sounds great!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 28, 2007, 11:21:55 AM
(Just memorized Larkin's "This is the Verse" but don't think I'll recite at family birthday dinner table tomorrow.)

Looking for "Lucky Jim", Amis's first, I could find only his last "The Biographer's Moustache" - so am about to embark upon that.  Apparently Amis despised Nabokov and Bellows as "fancy-pants".  Gopnik says "what is really depressing about Amis's later novels is not how bitter they are but how tiny - tiny in motive, in complaint, and in understanding.  One sees why writers of his son Martin's generation had almost to overpack their novels with cultural and cosmological allusions and ambitions; so much had been left out."  But also -- "Glad though you may be that you never had to meet Amis, it's hard, as you crawl out from under the sofa at the end of his Life, not to feel a little sorry that there will be no more of his kind.  Whatever the next generation of ornery Englishment is like, they won't be like that."



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 28, 2007, 11:26:37 AM
For raven fans -- http://www.spiegel.de/international/

(Scroll about 1/4 way down right hand side to "Clever Ravens" link..)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on April 28, 2007, 11:29:22 AM
The plain reason Gaddis sucks is that lawyers can't write worth a shit.

Shhshhhshhh....don't say that in front of whiskey.
Like all such statements, more than a kernel of truth for the general rule.  But there are exceptions, like Learned Hand.  And Wallace Stevens.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 28, 2007, 11:31:36 AM
I see that the Sunday book review has one on a new bio by Edith Wharton.I read a lot of Wharton the past two years but Bios rarely interest me much.Maybe in this case.Anyhoo the last two Wharton novels I read were lesser ones"Twilight Sleep" which I think is the lest of any Wharton I have read so far.Just seemed disjointed though it is still better than most writers today and the one I just finished"Mother's Recompense" which I really liked.Much more like a Wharton Novel like"Custom of the Country","The House of Mirth" etc.Now I've pulled "Iceland's Bell" by Halldor Laxness out of the pile.I read his Nobel Prize winning"Independent People" a few years back and was surprised how well written it was.Nnyhav where ever he is of late mentioned it a year or so ago.I like the new novel fine so far but am somewhat let down I am 50 pages plus into an Icelandic novel and not one sheep has been mentioned or eaten though shoes and shoelaces have been talked about as dinner fare.

So that's where Chaplin got the idea .. (nutritional potential of shoe/boot leather ..)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on April 30, 2007, 03:44:48 PM
(Just memorized Larkin's "This is the Verse" but don't think I'll recite at family birthday dinner table tomorrow.)

Looking for "Lucky Jim", Amis's first, I could find only his last "The Biographer's Moustache" - so am about to embark upon that.  Apparently Amis despised Nabokov and Bellows as "fancy-pants".  Gopnik says "what is really depressing about Amis's later novels is not how bitter they are but how tiny - tiny in motive, in complaint, and in understanding.  One sees why writers of his son Martin's generation had almost to overpack their novels with cultural and cosmological allusions and ambitions; so much had been left out."  But also -- "Glad though you may be that you never had to meet Amis, it's hard, as you crawl out from under the sofa at the end of his Life, not to feel a little sorry that there will be no more of his kind.  Whatever the next generation of ornery Englishment is like, they won't be like that."



Martin Amis wrote a great memoir that has a lot of information about his father.  It's a really interesting book - lots of material about various literary friends like Saul Bellow. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on April 30, 2007, 11:53:52 PM

Martin Amis wrote a great memoir that has a lot of information about his father.  It's a really interesting book - lots of material about various literary friends like Saul Bellow. 
[/quote]

Thanks Des -- I may well look for this after The Biographer's Moustache, which is pretty funny -- I wouldn't say great by any stretch, but nice details I appreciate about facial expressions, etc.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: readalot on May 02, 2007, 07:56:00 AM

This is my first day (at EFE) and my first post.
Now that you have that valueless data, i need to ask a question
to all:

Anyone interested in Ancient Roman Lit. ?
My interests run from Roman History (a new interest), Joyce, Yeats, General History,
Trollope, T.S. Eliot, Wallace Stevens, Dickens, Bio. (currently reading Walter Isaacson's "Einstein")  .....in short, i am all over the map and just enjoy a "good read".
I feel relieved that a really swell (swell?!) Forum site has developed and has many
former
 NYT Forums members.
I look forward to checking in (here) a few times a week.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on May 02, 2007, 12:14:27 PM
whiskey -

"Full Member"?  125 posts?  I'm not even a "Junior Member" yet.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 12:41:26 PM
whiskey -

"Full Member"?  125 posts?  I'm not even a "Junior Member" yet.

Whiner :-)

Cheers,
~Karl


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 02, 2007, 12:55:08 PM
whiskey -

"Full Member"?  125 posts?  I'm not even a "Junior Member" yet.
Better get posting, then!  88 more and you are a full member too!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on May 02, 2007, 01:23:58 PM
Whiskey, I think your "Full Member" status is bogus.  Besides, what is "Full Member" supposed to mean, anyway?  Does it have anything to do with that cruel accusation from the irate Polish dude in Book Reviews????? 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 02, 2007, 01:32:24 PM
Does it have anything to do with that cruel accusation from the irate Polish dude in Book Reviews????? 
Heh.  How DARE he accuse me of having a bigger penis than he does!  Why I oughta... thank him, I guess.

"Full member" merely means you've posted 100 times.  Jr. member is made at 50.  Can't wait to see what you become at, oh, 500.  "Jerk-off time waster" is my bet.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 02:03:36 PM
Just finished re-reading Crime and Punishment this morning; and last night I read Pushkin's Queen of Spades . . . great resonance, since Pushkin's character Herman was one of the sources of Dostoyevsky's Raskolnikov.

Cheers,
~Karl


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on May 05, 2007, 04:00:17 PM
On advice from those on American History where I originally asked this question, I am seeking an answer here.

I have been writing children's book for publication on the web for over two years. It has been what keeps me going with a disability that took me out of teaching before I was ready. There is no cost to the books, and they range over a variety of genres.

Now, as friend has forwarded me an ad for writing children's books for a fixed price. I have to make a bid. I think it will take me about 150 hours to do the 27 books according to a reading program formula. What I don't know is how much writing is worth on a per-hour basis.  Can anybody give me a clue? I was making about $20 an hour as a teacher. Is that a fair price? There will be no royalties, or future money. The books will be included in a reading program that is to be offered for free to schools without much in funding. That suits my preferences for how my works should be used.

I want the bid to be low enough to get the work, but not so low that I kick myself later for being too cheap.

I welcome all suggestions!

Anne in Virginia


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: thanatopsy on May 05, 2007, 08:35:32 PM
Don't have an answer but since you know the subject perhaps you can answer my query:

As a child, the first childhood reader I ever read was entitled "Painty Pony".  It may have been about a young Native American child and a pony.  I tried to find it on ebay and in the library but found absolutely nothing.

Do you have any idea how I may trace this little book?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 05, 2007, 08:50:15 PM
Don't have an answer but since you know the subject perhaps you can answer my query:

As a child, the first childhood reader I ever read was entitled "Painty Pony".  It may have been about a young Native American child and a pony.  I tried to find it on ebay and in the library but found absolutely nothing.

Do you have any idea how I may trace this little book?

Thanatopsy...could you possibly be thinking of "Painted Pony Runs Away?"  It was published in the late fifties.  The author's name is Jessie Brewer Mc


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 05, 2007, 08:52:44 PM
sorry..I accidentally pushed a wrong key....anyway.....

The author is Jessie Brewer McGaw (I remember because my aunt was Jessie Brewer).   I think the full title is something like "Painted Pony Runs Away As told by Little Elk. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 05, 2007, 08:55:35 PM
Thanatopsy...here is it on Ebay...but, sadly, no picture. 


http://cgi.ebay.com/PAINTED-PONY-RUNS-AWAY-Jessie-McGaw-VG-FREE-SHIPPING_W0QQitemZ160068799527QQcmdZViewItem


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: thanatopsy on May 06, 2007, 01:15:12 PM
Thanks for the tip. Will follow up on your advice.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 07, 2007, 12:10:04 AM
Des or Whiskey,Was Jan around the last few months of the forums? I think she would like it here.I came across her email last night going through my address book.I emailed Goliard but so far no response though he did post in a Yahoo group last week.Poet was pretty much gone by the time I left unless he made yet another return!Alaska Ranger posted in Yahoo till he met a ladyfriend who moved to the wilds of Alaska with him and he vanished except for a brief return.Avoice though is alive and well in his retirement forum.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 07, 2007, 01:19:08 AM
I haven't heard from jan in months.  I'd keep leaving out bait for her, and she never took it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 07, 2007, 01:36:02 AM
The Shakespeare forum was a great place to go fishing in the old forums.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on May 07, 2007, 08:52:05 AM
On advice from those on American History where I originally asked this question, I am seeking an answer here.

I have been writing children's book for publication on the web for over two years. It has been what keeps me going with a disability that took me out of teaching before I was ready. There is no cost to the books, and they range over a variety of genres.

Now, as friend has forwarded me an ad for writing children's books for a fixed price. I have to make a bid. I think it will take me about 150 hours to do the 27 books according to a reading program formula. What I don't know is how much writing is worth on a per-hour basis.  Can anybody give me a clue? I was making about $20 an hour as a teacher. Is that a fair price? There will be no royalties, or future money. The books will be included in a reading program that is to be offered for free to schools without much in funding. That suits my preferences for how my works should be used.

I want the bid to be low enough to get the work, but not so low that I kick myself later for being too cheap.

I welcome all suggestions!

Anne in Virginia

I don't know anything about writing children's books, but as a technical writer, I can tell you that in this field anyway, one charges by the page.  $10.00 per page for original material is not out of line.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on May 07, 2007, 12:18:59 PM
Bosox, Avoice is in a retirement forum?  Which one?  Do you suppose he's got Martin's e-mail addy?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on May 07, 2007, 03:01:59 PM
This system seems to be rigged because I am quite certain whiskey has not made 221 posts!!!!!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 07, 2007, 03:11:35 PM
This system seems to be rigged because I am quite certain whiskey has not made 221 posts!!!!!
You are wise to avoid the political fora, des.  Very, very wise. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: yankguy on May 07, 2007, 03:19:17 PM
Whiskeypriest is a liberal. 

Everybody taunt:   HA HA HA HA HA.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: thanatopsy on May 08, 2007, 09:12:57 PM
Lhoffman,

Nope, the book there was not about "Painty Pony".  I shall have to continue to search for it.

Thanx for your kind help.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 08, 2007, 10:39:22 PM
Thanatopsy, Good luck.  It's always exciting to find something we loved in childhood.  I hope you find it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 09, 2007, 05:54:12 AM
Have been reading A Journey Without Maps.  Wonderful book.  Loved the scene where Greene described seeing a movie based on one of his books in some washed up old town, I believe Teneriffe, and commenting on its quality.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 09, 2007, 05:55:18 AM
Yea, whiskey, I see the political forums picked up right where they left off -- nowhere.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: karlhenning on May 09, 2007, 12:34:17 PM
I don't meander there.

Cheers,
~Karl


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 09, 2007, 07:59:15 PM
I looked last night but sometimes the story makes my head spin it goes all over the place.Still it's fun.I like that someone made G.Jones a Ms.G.Jones.Oh how he would love that and The Red Sawn Hotel is from"At Swim Two Birds" I loved Whiskeys "Truly Dire Straits" line.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 10, 2007, 02:34:10 AM
Um,Make that The Red Swan Hotel.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 10, 2007, 02:45:02 AM
By the way I was reading some of the reader comments on"At Swim Two Birds" last night at Amazon U.K. and I loved I think it was the first review from a guy in Surrey.He gave it five stars but had this comment."I might have missed the point but I think all the pages in this book,apart from the beginning and the end,could be rearranged and it would have made just as much sense."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 10, 2007, 03:01:03 AM
Dzimus,I read somewhere today about the tipsy college students in Vilnius slipping into the zoo and getting a Giraffe pissed off.Also the NYTimes travel section had a nice article either this past sunday or the sunday before on the city.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 10, 2007, 03:02:18 AM
Make that Dzimas.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 10, 2007, 05:28:04 AM
Yea, karl, they should have a warning on the political forums - enter at your own risk!  Order a recent collection of Stories by Nabokov, translated and edited by Dmitri.  Looking forward to it.  The other day I got a laugh out of a mini SUV called a Pajero Pinin,

 http://www.m1911.org/pinin.htm


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 10, 2007, 10:26:20 PM
Wouldn't the professor be truly terrifying behind the wheel of the Pinin!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 11, 2007, 12:38:13 AM
It is kind of hard to imagine Nabokov behind the wheel of a Pinin.  I ordered an Everyman's edition of the book the other day. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 11, 2007, 11:14:29 AM
Dzimas...I think Everyman Editions are my favorites.  Do you know who wrote the intro on that one?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: prairiepop on May 11, 2007, 02:24:22 PM
Wasn't there an Italian car designer named Pinin Farina?  Or would Nabokov have driven a Volver...  My personal vehicle [considering my age here] would be a Hudson River Bracketed.  Nice to meander again with the jumping-off places so generously supplied by the hons, schols and academaroonies hereabouts.  Triple-named writers would drive triple-named vehicles...thus, Mary Roberts Rinehart would want an Armstrong-Siddley Sapphire.  Exceptions could be made...Ford Madox Ford comes to mind.  Two cars in his garage, right?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 11, 2007, 03:11:05 PM
Certainly much more sporty,

http://www.breithaupts.com/totc593.htm

I haven't received my copy of Pnin yet, Hoffman, and the Everyman's Library home page doesn't say who wrote the introduction.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 11, 2007, 11:13:34 PM
It is kind of hard to imagine Nabokov behind the wheel of a Pinin.  I ordered an Everyman's edition of the book the other day. 

Dzimas -- I hope you enjoy!

I belong to the Nabokov List-Serve and seldom contribute as most who do are highly accomplished academics.  E-mails arrive each day -- hundreds remain in Nabokov folder.   Des I believe once joined and overwhelmed and exasperated by constant heavy influx into in-box unsubscribed.

Reading Kingsley Amis now -- his last novel "The Biographer's Moustache" -- enjoying finally in the second half, but to think that he disliked Nabokov, infinitely his superior I'm afraid, is interesting -- especially in light of his son, Martin's, appreciation of Nabokov, his "essentially amorous style" etc.

You're not Gintaras are you, perchance?



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 11, 2007, 11:16:48 PM
Certainly much more sporty,

http://www.breithaupts.com/totc593.htm

I haven't received my copy of Pnin yet, Hoffman, and the Everyman's Library home page doesn't say who wrote the introduction.

Pnin -- excellent choice for a happy start.  Some might say Nabokov's "most accessible".  I balked when my brother-in-law described it thusly at dinner table, though not sure what snobbish instinct made be balk, except to think all his others (except may Ada?) ought to be "accessible" to any good reader.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 11, 2007, 11:21:30 PM
Just finished re-reading Crime and Punishment this morning; and last night I read Pushkin's Queen of Spades . . . great resonance, since Pushkin's character Herman was one of the sources of Dostoyevsky's Raskolnikov.

Cheers,
~Karl

Karl -- what was the translation of Pushkin?  VN in his Russian novels class infamously slammed the popular and critically acclaimed Dostoevsky for that very novel, and the sympathetic villain.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 11, 2007, 11:31:23 PM

Ever read anything by Kingsley Amis? 


Hi Teddy! I read Lucky Jim a LONG time ago and thought it was hilarious. Did you see there's a new biography of Amis that's been getting praised all over the place? (Amis was great friends with Philip Larkin.)

Can you or someone else direct me to the bar here? I could really use a drink...

Burningcoal - Lucky Jim was what I was looking for but naturally my local library didn't have so instead took out the very last novel I believe that K. Amis wrote -- "The Biographer's Moustache".  A search via Google brought up the person who believes he inspired the novel -- in that he did write a biography some years ago of Amis, to which Martin took exception apparently.  At any rate, as often seems to happen, seemed embarrassingly thin and shallow until about mid-point and then the sheer story of it has finally gripped me a bit ( I find myself in fact writing in that smart (though perhaps not so smart)-Brit style as I write this).  The protagonist (and I suspect true villain) a thirtyish lower-middle class journalist with aspirations to becoming a literary phenomenon himself via successful novel attaches to a semi-critically acclaimed/famous novelist in his seventies, a major snob about class, with a much younger wife from rich family, in the hopes that by writing his biography, he will gain a step up towards achieving his own fame.  Of course, despite having a girlfriend of sorts, he embarks upon an affair with the middle-aged but attractive wife of the novelist.  Anyway - he's about to go to a weekend country affair at a Duke's (Hungerstream) thanks to the wife/lover advising that her husband wants him to be there, and that he should invite his girlfriend -- then bursting into tears.  There it is.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 11, 2007, 11:41:20 PM
Bo,

I can't help but mention another thing that Gopnik has written that I think is excellent and that is in not the in the last but maybe the New Yorker before the last, regarding the tragic massacre of students by madman recently in Virginia -- and gun control (or the lack thereof) in the US.  Even Bill Clinton defended the status quo on Larry King saying -- "well, we're not going to criticize the gun sellers because they did everything right and legally and we got all we possibly could getting the law changed to make them even make the checks they did" -- to paraphrase (not quoted perfectly by any stretch).  I had had a helpless feeling that other countries' massacres could be brought up (Canada-Montreal some years ago, etc.); the point made about a madman always being able to access a gun if he really wanted etc.  Gopnik finally gave me the ammo so to speak to get past that -- the fact there have been lessening numbers in countries that tighten laws after massacres, rather than growing numbers, as in the US, where comparitively speaking, guns would seem to be handed to them on a silver platter.  At any rate, his article is the best thing I've seen on that tragic bloody massacre.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 11, 2007, 11:47:36 PM
Bosox: Hope you'll come back to Creative Writing--your hummingbird spit liqueur name got the biggest laugh from me over there, more please!



I must meander over to the Creative Writing forum -- sounds .. very .. interesting ...


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 11, 2007, 11:49:27 PM
Quote
he's about to go to a weekend country affair

Wonder if he'll be called upon to sing madrigals.  If so 'twill be a direct reference to the country weekend at the home of the department head in Lucky Jim which I wish I could send you and hope it turns up in your reading, even if as "guilty pleasure" or not even "guilty"--there should be reading for every mood, and Lucky Jim is similar (to me, anyway) to another favorite, Stella Gibbons's Cold Comfort Farm, also recommended as jolly good fun (and a splendid spoof of Hardy, certainly, and even D. H. Lawrence, perhaps).  

Thanks nytemperdue (is there a shorter name you can be called by!)!  I will keep eye out for madrigals!

I saw a nice movie called CC Farm -- wonder if it was based on Gibbons book?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 12, 2007, 12:01:00 AM
The movie was based on the book.Back in the early days of PBS there was a Brit Tv import shown in the states that I thought a bit darker than the movie.It came off more like Tobacco Road British Countryside .A bunch of my high school buddies and I happened to come across it one night probably in 73 after smoking some fine herb and it was truly one of the strangest funniest things I ever watched.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 12, 2007, 12:25:28 AM
The movie was based on the book.Back in the early days of PBS there was a Brit Tv import shown in the states that I thought a bit darker than the movie.It came off more like Tobacco Road British Countryside .A bunch of my high school buddies and I happened to come across it one night probably in 73 after smoking some fine herb and it was truly one of the strangest funniest things I ever watched.

Thanks, Bo -- marvelous! 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 12, 2007, 12:36:58 AM
(Don't normally say "marvelous" -- it's Amis..)

Cold comfort farm - about a girl who whips a bunch of louts into shape -- kind of reverse of the usual fairytale where poor young transforms herself to enter into the good life?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 12, 2007, 12:37:24 AM
One in the same, teddy.  I've been a slow convert to Nabokov, but now can't seem to get enough of him.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 12, 2007, 12:41:30 AM
One in the same, teddy.  I've been a slow convert to Nabokov, but now can't seem to get enough of him.

Gint -- good to read you!

Well -- I hope you will note here any thoughts you may have on anything you are reading.  Have you read any of his short stories?  A couple to mention:  "The Vane Sisters", "Spring in Fialta".  I got "SIF" wrong - until Philo shed some light on the narrator.  One that still confounds me is "That in Alleppo Once".



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: ehkzu on May 12, 2007, 05:42:19 AM
How do you add a picture avatare to your profile?

I notice Bosox18d was able to. I whipped up a URL (http://tinyurl.com/38onq8) which the profile page duly noted--but I get nada. What's Botox's secret of success? I know my pic isn't too large--I purposely made it quite compact.

BTW any Browncoats in this thread?

--Ehkzu


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 12, 2007, 11:40:35 AM
teddy -

What confounds you about Aleppo?  It is simple and straightforward, like all of VN's short stories....

eh -

Maybe try the url without the short cut in it.  I've had no problems getting the avatar to appear.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 12, 2007, 08:46:54 PM
"Aleppo" and "A Matter of Chance" both seem Nabokovian boiled down to the bones.  Both deal with loss of love and status related to loss of homeland...with a bit of Nabokov's love of coincidence thrown in.  Separation, loss, death...what's a Russian emigre to do? 

Has anyone read "Gods?"  Nabokov placed it on his list of his ten least favorite writings, but I liked the feel of it very much.

 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 12, 2007, 10:27:52 PM
teddy -

What confounds you about Aleppo?  It is simple and straightforward, like all of VN's short stories....

eh -

Maybe try the url without the short cut in it.  I've had no problems getting the avatar to appear.

Whiskey -- a sharp intake of breath at first sentence.  A sigh of relief at second sentence. 

I'd like to put a picture my great great grandfather took of Seattle waterfront in the 1860's but have no clue how to begin.  I will try and ask for advice if needed.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 12, 2007, 10:30:17 PM
"Aleppo" and "A Matter of Chance" both seem Nabokovian boiled down to the bones.  Both deal with loss of love and status related to loss of homeland...with a bit of Nabokov's love of coincidence thrown in.  Separation, loss, death...what's a Russian emigre to do? 

Has anyone read "Gods?"  Nabokov placed it on his list of his ten least favorite writings, but I liked the feel of it very much.

 

Lhoffman -- I'm going to re-read the story.  And haven't read "Matter of Chance" that I can remember -- so one to try after Aleppo.

When I've re-read, I'll put my questions here.   Haven't read "Gods" - who's the author?  Nabokov's strong opinions - many of them harsh against accepted judgements of literary saints, are part of his appeal to cultish following that includes yours truly.   That doesn't mean he wasn't wrong sometimes ...


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 12, 2007, 10:44:20 PM
Teddy..."Gods" is one of Nabokov's early short stories (1924). 
 
[/quote]

 Nabokov's strong opinions - many of them harsh against accepted judgements of literary saints, are part of his appeal to cultish following that includes yours truly.   That doesn't mean he wasn't wrong sometimes ...
[/quote]

There is a scene in the first chapter of Nabokov's "The Gift" where two Russian emigre poets walking home from a literary salon discuss the "great" Russian writers (by name!).  The conversation begins, "You see, the way I look at it, there are only two kinds of books:  bedside and wastebasket.  Either I love a writer fervently, or throw him out entirely."

The other poet replies, "A bit severe, isn't it?  And a bit dangerous.  Don't forget that the whole of Russian literature is the literature of one century and, after the most lenient eliminations, takes up no more than three or three and a half thousand printed sheets, and scarcely one-half of this is worthy of the bookshelf, to say nothing of the bedside table.  With such quantitative scantiness we must resign ourselves to the fact that our Pegasus is piebald, that not everything about a bad writer is bad, and not all about a good one good."

....Wonderful stuff. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 12, 2007, 10:47:16 PM
hmmmm...no nice little blue quote box.  I wonder what I did =(


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 12, 2007, 11:03:12 PM
Teddy..."Gods" is one of Nabokov's early short stories (1924). 

Another I need to read (smoothly moving on) -- did you say he hated it?

Quote
There is a scene in the first chapter of Nabokov's "The Gift" where two Russian emigre poets walking home from a literary salon discuss the "great" Russian writers (by name!).  The conversation begins, "You see, the way I look at it, there are only two kinds of books:  bedside and wastebasket.  Either I love a writer fervently, or throw him out entirely."

The other poet replies, "A bit severe, isn't it?  And a bit dangerous.  Don't forget that the whole of Russian literature is the literature of one century and, after the most lenient eliminations, takes up no more than three or three and a half thousand printed sheets, and scarcely one-half of this is worthy of the bookshelf, to say nothing of the bedside table.  With such quantitative scantiness we must resign ourselves to the fact that our Pegasus is piebald, that not everything about a bad writer is bad, and not all about a good one good."

....Wonderful stuff. 

Wonderful indeed!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 12, 2007, 11:18:08 PM
Has anyone read "Gods?"  Nabokov placed it on his list of his ten least favorite writings, but I liked the feel of it very much.

Must .. learn .. to read .. more .. carefully ...


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 12, 2007, 11:25:48 PM
Nabokov and "Gods"

In the Vintage Edition of his short stories (edited by son Dmitri), there is a facsimile of a list written by Nabokov titled "Bottom of the Barrel".

The Wingstroke
Vengeance
The Seaport
Gods
The Fight
The Razor
Christmas Tale
The Enchanter

(Thought there were ten, but I now find only eight.)  I wish he had listed his favorites. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 12, 2007, 11:31:55 PM
Nabokov and "Gods"

In the Vintage Edition of his short stories (edited by son Dmitri), there is a facsimile of a list written by Nabokov titled "Bottom of the Barrel".

The Wingstroke
Vengeance
The Seaport
Gods
The Fight
The Razor
Christmas Tale
The Enchanter

(Thought there were ten, but I now find only eight.)  I wish he had listed his favorites. 

I've got the Vintage edition and now as I write this found Bottom of the Barrel!

I see none of my favorites are on VN's list.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 12, 2007, 11:35:35 PM
I note on the following page his list of "Stories written in English", which happens to include what I believe are some of his best, i.e. "Signs and Symbols", "The Vane Sisters", "That in Aleppo Once". 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 12, 2007, 11:45:32 PM
I note on the following page his list of "Stories written in English", which happens to include what I believe are some of his best, i.e. "Signs and Symbols", "The Vane Sisters", "That in Aleppo Once". 

I haven't read "Signs and Symbols" yet.  I'll have to take a look at it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 13, 2007, 01:09:38 AM
Nabokov and "Gods"

In the Vintage Edition of his short stories (edited by son Dmitri), there is a facsimile of a list written by Nabokov titled "Bottom of the Barrel".

The Wingstroke
Vengeance
The Seaport
Gods
The Fight
The Razor
Christmas Tale
The Enchanter

(Thought there were ten, but I now find only eight.)  I wish he had listed his favorites. 
But note that by "bottom of the barrel" Nabokov meant merely that they were the last of his stories to be published in English.  He did not intend that as a comment on their quality.  For instance, one of those Bottom of the Barrel is "The Enchanter."  Christmas Tale, if I remember it properly, was a pretty good story.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 13, 2007, 01:11:54 AM
I note on the following page his list of "Stories written in English", which happens to include what I believe are some of his best, i.e. "Signs and Symbols", "The Vane Sisters", "That in Aleppo Once". 

I haven't read "Signs and Symbols" yet.  I'll have to take a look at it.
You definitely should.  It's probably my favorite of his stories.  It has one of my favorite passages in all of Nabokovia:

Quote
This, and much more, she accepted - for after all living did mean accepting
the loss of one joy after another, not even joys in her case - mere
possibilities of improvement. She thought of the endless waves of pain
that for some reason or other she and her husband had to endure; of the
invisible giants hurting her boy in some unimaginable fashion; of the
incalculable amount of tenderness contained in the world; of the fate of
this tenderness, which is either crushed, or wasted, or transformed into
madness; of neglected children humming to themselves in unswept corners;
of beautiful weeds that cannot hide from the farmer and helplessly have to
watch the shadow of his simian stoop leave mangled flowers in its wake, as
the monstrous darkness approaches.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 13, 2007, 01:30:26 AM
To all the mothers out there.Happy Mothersday!.Still trying to get over the Sabres loss tonight but since I spent five hours digging and planting today my body is to sore to get depressed about it.Listening to Tom Hulce do that goofy laugh helps.Amadeus(sp) on local PBS station.They went from East of Eden last week to this.Can't wait to see what next weeks film is.Plus as far as I can tell from the ads  Martin Sheen is the host but I haven't seen him either week so he must appear very early.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 13, 2007, 01:32:05 AM
I was just thinking that I haven't seen"My Favorite Year" in a long time.Now that's a classic.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 13, 2007, 01:38:59 AM
I was just thinking that I haven't seen"My Favorite Year" in a long time.Now that's a classic.
One of my favorite Peter O'Toole movies.  No one but no one goes over the top - when the role calls for it - like O'Toole did in his prime.  His two Henry II movies (Beckett, especially Lion in Winter) and MFY are the best examples.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 13, 2007, 01:53:16 AM
I have never peeked over at IMDB on that flick.There are so many memorable lines and scenes.The Aunt in the wedding gown at dinner.His Jewish Mom remarried to the Filipino Bantamweight.The uncle asking did you stoop her?"So Swannie",Ma he's an actor not a river. The scene where he's hanging on a ledge beneath a party"I think Allan Swann is beneath us"Of course he's beneath us he's an actor'"


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 13, 2007, 01:57:30 AM
I see fro IMDB the correct spelling is Shtup her


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 13, 2007, 09:35:47 AM
Happy Mother's Day to all mothers out there (of the good variety - by which I mean as opposed to "that mother f..").

I will be taking mine a basket of chocolates and other other sundry things, as my sister will give her her yearly Spring hanging basket of flowers.  May recite "mother of great merit"..


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 13, 2007, 09:39:31 AM
But note that by "bottom of the barrel" Nabokov meant merely that they were the last of his stories to be published in English.  He did not intend that as a comment on their quality.  For instance, one of those Bottom of the Barrel is "The Enchanter."  Christmas Tale, if I remember it properly, was a pretty good story.

Oh, thanks for clarifying this Whiskey -- I think I'd always had this wrong, years ago also, thinking that he meant they were his least impressive, according to him!  (One shudders at thought of all the things one gets wrong in life, that lead one meandering down a totally inappropriate path. Even memories of incidents thought of in a certain way for years, that when one reports them are clarified by another witness, in that something else was in fact said before or after the particular thing .. etc)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 13, 2007, 09:45:26 AM
I was just thinking that I haven't seen"My Favorite Year" in a long time.Now that's a classic.

I love that movie also, Bo, and had the good fortune to see it again, for about the third time, a few months ago.  Apparently based on a true incident when Errol Flynn was snagged to go on Sid Caesar's "Show of Shows" -- the early, live, TV show in the 50's.  He was indeed taken under a young TV writer's wing in order to make sure he didn't stray too far or go on a bender on the night.

O'Toole superb in the role, able to poke fun at his own fame it would seem, his fine boned, handsome face somewhat ravaged by alcohol and age in real life lent his scenes a poignancy.  I admit to a weakness of enjoying reading the Turner Classic Movies articles on movies (I have it as a "Favorite" for my schedule/time zone) and recall that O'Toole did in fact give the director some grief during the making of this movie on account of drinking -- but I may be thinking of an earlier movie.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 13, 2007, 09:51:52 AM
Actually -- Mel Brooks was the young writer.  From the TCM site:

"My Favorite Year was inspired by Mel Brooks' real-life experience with Errol Flynn when he appeared on Sid Caesar's Your Show of Shows. Mel Brooks (the producer of My Favorite Year) was a junior writer at the time and was assigned the role of chaperon for the former swashbuckler, who was hitting the bottle hard. Indeed, Richard Benjamin described Brooks's involvement in My Favorite Year as being more than just financial. It was the former comedy writer's experiences with Flynn that helped Benjamin find the right tone for the film - a mixture of awe and comic exasperation toward a once famous star who was trying to hide his insecurities through heavy drinking.

Not surprisingly, Peter O'Toole, once a heavy drinker himself, received an Academy Award nomination for Best Actor for his flamboyant portrayal of Swann. With the exception of his performance in The Stunt Man (1980) two years earlier, My Favorite Year was O'Toole's most critically acclaimed performance since The Ruling Class in 1972 and he still hasn't topped it."

Reminds me that "The Stunt Man" is a movie I'd almost forgotten -- I believe may have seen once and must make a point of renting.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 13, 2007, 10:07:00 AM
To all the mothers out there.Happy Mothersday!.Still trying to get over the Sabres loss tonight but since I spent five hours digging and planting today my body is to sore to get depressed about it.Listening to Tom Hulce do that goofy laugh helps.Amadeus(sp) on local PBS station.They went from East of Eden last week to this.Can't wait to see what next weeks film is.Plus as far as I can tell from the ads  Martin Sheen is the host but I haven't seen him either week so he must appear very early.

You mean the Sens won after being down 2 when I last looked last night?  A check of the Hockey site tells me this is true - yippee!

I'm so sorry Bo if Buffalo is your team, but I'm rooting for the last Canadian team left in the thing, while continuing to lick wounds over "Canucks Quack" headline and fact.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 13, 2007, 11:19:11 AM
Canucks, etc....There is something romantic about the last Canadian team winning, but  Detroit is  just across the river.  I figure....hey, close enough.

Whiskey, Dmitri Nabokov writes of the Bottom of the Barrel list in his introduction the short stories:

Quote
Nabokov had long expressed the intention of issuing a final batch, but was not sure whether there were enough stories that met his standard to make up a fifth Nabokovian---or numerical---dozen.  His creative life was too full, and was truncated too suddenly, for him to make a final selection.  He had penciled a brief list of stories he considered worthy of publication and labeled it "bottom of the barrel."  He was referring, he explained to me, not to their quality, but to the fact that, among the materials available for consultation at the moment, they were the final ones worthy of publication....

I think you're right, though, that the list doesn't imply that these were his least favorites. 




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 13, 2007, 11:57:02 AM
Don't think I could do this:

Quote
PARIS (AP) -- Paulo Coelho hates seeing books neglected, gathering dust on his shelves. And so he leaves most of what he reads in parks, bus stations, his local Japanese restaurant, for random readers to find.

"One day the shelves in my apartment collapsed, and I saw all my books on the floor, and I thought to myself, why do I have these books, to impress my friends?" the author of "The Alchemist" said, explaining how he lugs bags of books around to give them away. "I feel a book must travel."

And so the walls of Coelho's otherwise luxurious Paris apartment are lined with near-empty wooden bookcases, giving the place a strangely spare atmosphere despite the moldings, high ceilings and carefully arranged sofa cushions.


Here's a link to the rest of the article

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BOOKS_PAULO_COELHO?SITE=ININS&SECTION=ENTERTAINMENT (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BOOKS_PAULO_COELHO?SITE=ININS&SECTION=ENTERTAINMENT)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 13, 2007, 12:20:47 PM
More than once I thought about giving my books the heave ho, then Hurrican Opal came along that damaged most of them beyond salvation.  I said I would never collect books again, but here I am 12 years on with my shelves stuffed once again.   I do think about culling my shelves, but I could never simply give them away like that either.  I think some books deserve a good home and living in Lithuania I don't have to worry about hurricanes anymore.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on May 13, 2007, 01:17:55 PM
I love to give books away. For years, they went to a library drive which sold the books cheap to new readers.

Recently, my mother in law opened a little shop in town and she sells used books as well as other things that were once treasure and aren't any longer. So, we have a big box in the living room collecting the books we will give to her to sell. They were once read, treasured, but now clutter the shelves I need for the new books I am buying, reading and treasuring.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 13, 2007, 02:57:27 PM
Dzimas, your weather is I think very similar to southern Michigan's.  Pleasant summers, colorful autumns.  I think you get a bit more rain than we do and less snow in winter, though.  Seems quite beautiful in photos I've seen.

Weezo, I sort of pictured you holding on to your books for research.  But then, I know that you have a generous heart.

I think I keep far too many of my books.  Our basement is finished and all the walls have bookshelves (humidifier keeps them smelling fresh).  Son's room...including his bed, end table, dresser...full of books (which I have to re-locate when he comes home.)  Computer table is full of books.  They seem to have a life all their own.  There is a lovely little book by Carlos Maria Dominguez called "the house of paper" about a man who has taken his enormous library and built himself a house on a very remote coastline in Uruguay.  Eventually, the books become his house. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 13, 2007, 03:05:13 PM
By the way, Dzimas (and other movie/Graham Greene fans)....Got this in my E-mail from Amazon today:

Quote
Dear Amazon.com Customer,

We've noticed that customers who have expressed interest in M - Criterion Collection (Special Edition) have also ordered The Third Man - Criterion Collection (2-Disc Edition) on DVD.  For this reason, you might like to know that The Third Man - Criterion Collection (2-Disc Edition) will be released on DVD on May 22, 2007.  You can pre-order your copy at a savings of $11.96 by following the link below.

  The Third Man - Criterion Collection (2-Disc Edition)
Nelly Arno
List Price: $39.95 
Price: $27.99
You Save: $11.96 (30%) 

Release Date: May 22, 2007

 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 13, 2007, 03:21:35 PM
I got a less expensive copy through amazon.co.uk:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Third-Man-Orson-Welles/dp/B000HEVTEA/ref=sr_1_1/026-0045393-2766073?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1179083986&sr=1-1


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 13, 2007, 05:32:37 PM
By the way, Dzimas (and other movie/Graham Greene fans)....Got this in my E-mail from Amazon today:

Quote
Dear Amazon.com Customer,

We've noticed that customers who have expressed interest in M - Criterion Collection (Special Edition) have also ordered The Third Man - Criterion Collection (2-Disc Edition) on DVD.  For this reason, you might like to know that The Third Man - Criterion Collection (2-Disc Edition) will be released on DVD on May 22, 2007.  You can pre-order your copy at a savings of $11.96 by following the link below.

  The Third Man - Criterion Collection (2-Disc Edition)
Nelly Arno
List Price: $39.95 
Price: $27.99
You Save: $11.96 (30%) 

Release Date: May 22, 2007

 
The Third Man is the greatest movie ever made, says I.  I have the earlier Criterion Edition of the movie; so wonderfully much better than the old VHSs (two) I wore out, which even new sounded as if under water.  I'll pass on the new one, despite my love for the film; the original CE is beautiful and don't think the incremental increase in quality justifies the expenditure.  Especially not with the wonderful people at Criterion about to issue, for the first time ever on video, Billy Wilder's great Ace in the Hole this summer.  Probably the most cynical movie ever from a major movie director.

bo -

"Stone, ladies are unwell.  Gentlemen vomit."  My Favorite Line.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on May 13, 2007, 07:15:08 PM
Laurie,

Don't worry, the books we got rid of were not any I could use for research. They were a lot of how-to books long outdates, and some not-very-good fiction that I'd accumulated when I did book clubs.

I've submitted a bid to do stories with controlled vocabulary for a reading program, and sent a manuscript to someone who is doing a collection of children's books for sale online. They are stories about Sara, the Pineapple Cat, a yellow and white striped cat. My first submission to the site is partly based on adventures of our own cats, neither of whom are yellow. The cat, after getting frisky on fresh catnip (our cats have done it!) climbs a trellis to the roof, sits on the roof ridge, and then sobers enough to realize she can't safely get down, and she has to wait for her owner to come home from work and push a board up the roof from a ladder, for her to climb down on. Our cats have climbed the now deceased pussy willow and gotten on the roof. We didn't have to rescue them, since they were able to get back on the tree and back down it. First time Rescue did it, he was still a small kitten, and was mewing from the edge of the roof when I called him to come in for dinner. After I saw where he was, he jumped onto the tree and came down before I had to call hubby. Snowkitis has also sought the safety of the roof when something wild scared her in the yard.

So, with those two projects underway, I will turn to writing that Teddy Roosevelt story that's been in my head for a few weeks now waiting until I got a round tuit.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 13, 2007, 09:53:00 PM
Anne...I've always wanted a round tuit, but have never been able to get one.   ;)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on May 13, 2007, 09:55:48 PM
Laurie,

Never fear, it is doable. When son John was in high school he was given a gift by one of his girlfriends. It was a circle of red construction paper with the word "tuit" on it. He hung it on his bedroom wall where it remained until we changed the room to a sitting room. I asked him what it was supposed to be, he replied, "It is a round tuit".... made perfect sense.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 13, 2007, 10:29:40 PM
Whiskey

Quote
The Third Man is the greatest movie ever made, says I.  I have the earlier Criterion Edition of the movie; so wonderfully much better than the old VHSs (two) I wore out, which even new sounded as if under water.  I'll pass on the new one, despite my love for the film; the original CE is beautiful and don't think the incremental increase in quality justifies the expenditure.  Especially not with the wonderful people at Criterion about to issue, for the first time ever on video, Billy Wilder's great Ace in the Hole this summer.  Probably the most cynical movie ever from a major movie director.

bo -

"Stone, ladies are unwell.  Gentlemen vomit."  My Favorite Line.
 
 

Better than "au hasard Balthazar?  The best DVD's in my collection are Kirosawa's "Ikiru" and Kieslowski's "Decalogue."  Maybe "Wings of Desire".  But I don't own "The Third Man."  Think it's worth the price if you didn't already own it?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 14, 2007, 12:30:40 AM
You own Dekalog?  I am jealous - my #3 movie ever, after Third Man and Sunset Blvd.  I keep seeing it at various stores, picking it up, staring at the 70.00 price tag....

Obviously I think the price is worth it for The Third Man - but see if you can locate one of the older ones (single DVD) at a cheap price.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 14, 2007, 02:04:30 AM
So many good movies, hard to pick a top five, but when it comes to film noir, I love Ascenseur pour l'échafaud:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051378/

and Tirez sur le pianiste :

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054389/

both of which I have on Criterion.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 14, 2007, 02:06:17 AM
Hoffman -- mercifully, it doesnt' get as cold in Lithuania as it does in Michigan.  We are more a maritime climate, like Massachusetts, despite the higher latitude.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 14, 2007, 02:11:11 AM
But, if I had a Top Five, If... would probably be in it:

http://www.amazon.com/If-Criterion-Collection-Malcolm-McDowell/dp/B000OPPAEW/ref=cm_cr-mr-title/002-1948969-6965627


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 14, 2007, 02:18:32 AM
Of course, you can always pick up a used copy, but amazon.co.uk still has many of the Criterion movies in the original single DVD format, and usually for around 10 bucks.  Hit and miss on the transfers, however, which I guess is what you pay for with Criterion.  I like the way Criterion has repackaged some recent classics like Naked Lunch and The Tin Drum, with lots of extra material, which I couldn't resist.   One of my favorites is the Criterion edition of Brazil:

http://www.amazon.com/Brazil-Criterion-Collection-3-Disc-Boxed/dp/B000G8NXZK/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-1948969-6965627?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1179123466&sr=1-2


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 14, 2007, 11:12:17 AM
Quote
You own Dekalog?  I am jealous - my #3 movie ever, after Third Man and Sunset Blvd.  I keep seeing it at various stores, picking it up, staring at the 70.00 price tag....

I am lucky.  I have a good source for used DVD's....and they are usually a safe buy as there isn't too much you can to do a DVD.  I was able to pick up Decalogue and Kieslowski's Color Trilogy for $40.  But I haven't come across "The Third Man" yet. 

Dzimas, I have "Brazil," too.  I'd rank it pretty highly.  It's got a little of everything thrown in...Sci-fi, fantasy, comedy...a likeable bureaucrat. 

I think if I had to pick favorites, most would be works of Fritz Lang.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 14, 2007, 11:28:44 AM
Metropolis is my favorite sci fi movie ever.  Dearly love to get the most recent restored version.

I need a good source for used DVD's.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 14, 2007, 11:57:41 AM
I have a very poor copy of Metropolis, but I still love it.  The Otomo anime version is good as well....some of the best animation I've seen.

(As an aside...gotta love the "salute" to Rotwang in the form of the mad Dr. Strangelove.)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 14, 2007, 12:02:48 PM
Teddy...thank you for recommending "Signs and Symbols."  One fine work of writing.  You can almost picture the couple, having the same discussion night after night, walking a wire between hope and hell....and the phone rings.

Also an interesting passing reference to the young man's famous cousin, a chess player.  So the deranged Luzhin in this story is the cousin of the deranged chess player in "The Defense."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 14, 2007, 12:05:59 PM
I saw the Georgio Moroedor scored version when I was in college; the visuals were incredible, but the music annoying.  Caught the most recent restored version on The Greatest Channel on Cable - or more accurately, Dish Network - known to some as Turner Classic Movies.  And then, a few weeks ago, I had fallen asleep on the couch and awoke to the scene where Maria is being chased through a maze by, essentially, a beam of light.  What an amazing hallucinatory experience that was.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 14, 2007, 11:47:05 PM
Quote
One of my favorite Peter O'Toole movies.  No one but no one goes over the top - when the role calls for it - like O'Toole did in his prime.  His two Henry II movies (Beckett, especially Lion in Winter) and MFY are the best examples.

I'd add The Ruling Class to the best examples of O'Toole Over the Top, for sure.  I remember going to see it at Don Pancho's Art Theater on Central Avenue in Albuquerque NM--with a date, yet, whose idea of a movie it certainly was not (and whose idea of a date I certainly was not shortly thereafter...just as well.)

Metropolis is my hubs' favorite sci-fi  and I can't decide on mine, though I admit to a certain fondness for Buckaroo Banzai (I once knew the full title). 

[On edit: Just last night I saw another top favorite sci-fi, or social sci-fi, movie: Brother From Another Planet. Any other John Sayles fans around?]

NY - I remember really liking The Brother from Another Planet -- but the only thing I can remember is his finger .. pointing it, doing something with it -- charming movie..


Title: Metropolis
Post by: Dzimas on May 15, 2007, 05:52:59 AM
Metropolis was extremely daring in its time but it isn't one of those movies that has weathered well, principally because so much of the original was lost, never to be retrieved.  Any restored version is an amalgam of pieces collected through the years.  I have an overlong version with a new musical soundtrack on VHS that was put out be Eureka Video.  For what its worth, this is the authorized edition on DVD:

http://www.amazon.com/Metropolis-Restored-Authorized-Alfred-Abel/dp/B00007L4MJ/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1948969-6965627?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1179222556&sr=1-1

but my favorite film from that era remains Berlin, Symphony of a Great City:

http://www.amazon.com/Berlin-Symphony-Great-Walter-Ruttmann/dp/6305301697/ref=sr_1_1/002-1948969-6965627?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1179222741&sr=1-1


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 15, 2007, 05:55:01 AM
Metropolis is my hubs' favorite sci-fi  and I can't decide on mine, though I admit to a certain fondness for Buckaroo Banzai (I once knew the full title). 

http://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Buckaroo-Banzai-Across-Dimension/dp/B00005JKEX/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-1948969-6965627?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1179222875&sr=1-1


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: karlhenning on May 15, 2007, 01:54:09 PM
Without a quarter!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 16, 2007, 08:31:48 PM
Shucks, Nytemps...I always enjoy your comments....


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 16, 2007, 10:38:58 PM
Shucks, Nytemps...I always enjoy your comments....

And I enjoy your posts here as well as your wit on the Creative Writing forum.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 17, 2007, 12:42:25 AM
I am coming into the home stretch of "The Biographer's Moustache" and admit I've gotten a mite interested in these characters, the protagonist about to take a dive I believe for the lower regions.  He's I guess Amis's version of Kinbote, in a sense, a much simpler version -- in fact, nothing like Kinbote.  He simply wants to use Fane (the writer whose biography he's writing) to gain possible access to fame for himself -- or a means to open a window -- unlike Kinbote, who was crazed and fed upon John Shade.

Gordon (whose name I snagged for a character for the CW forum), now blinded by his emotion, to say nothing of lust, the mistress of which is his subject's wife, has lost all objectivity and is about to screw Fane, a seeming class-obsessed nitwit in his own right, yet, in fact, a person of some substance, unless he's pulled the wool over Gordon's eyes in one ramble over the fields of their aristocratric host, which substance Gordon at this point seems to be putting out of his mind for his own ends.

What's interesting about the English form of speech, as depicted by K. Amis, is the almost anti-intellectual, yet at the same time anti-real quality -- when people speak, it's always in a sort of back-handed way, a back-draft, saying the opposite of what's meant, etc -- so that becomes the language, the meaning read between the lines.  Charmingly the opposite of "in your face", down to earth New World speech.  Passionless.  Sprightly.  Occasionally very funny.




Title: Lolita
Post by: Dzimas on May 17, 2007, 02:07:02 AM
Whiskey, A Journey Without Maps won by default in the June Monthly Reading Group.  Shouldn't take much effort on your part given how well versed you are on all things Greene.  It is kind of sad seeing the Times reduced to a few struggling forums, although we had a good discussion on Lolita.  I haven't been following the current one on Lover of Unreason.

It was interesting to me that both Amis and Nafisi (Reading Lolita in Tehran) saw the Lolita as a parable on totalitarianism.  While there was a sense of totalitarianism lurking in Hum's character, I saw it more as a kinky satire on the sweet bird of youth, allowing Nabokov to let fly on his impressions on all things Americana, especially the obsession placed on youth.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 17, 2007, 02:24:53 AM
Did Mosca stick around till the bitter end or did he leave to insult folks elsewhere?I noticed a few years ago after Mary and I outed him as living in Rochester where I grew up that his phone number and address vanished when one searched for him on Yahoo under his Greg Bejerk or what ever his last name was.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 17, 2007, 06:00:13 AM
Actually, mosca calmed down quite a bit and tuned out once the forum purge was announced.  I have no idea what he is up to now.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 18, 2007, 12:19:26 AM
NY --

Probably a prudent move. Can you remember a debate held on one of the forums, about a controversial book by an anthropologist (?Salins) re the Captain Cook voyage to Hawaii that led to his death, the Hawaiian natives who took Cook & Co. for gods, Salins the proponent of the "gods" theory (natives became disenchanted and then did in Cook) vs another anthropologist who thought this an error --= I took Salins argument and others took the other anthropologist's argument.  Greg -- if indeed it was Mosca who set up this debate, said he'd been in touch with Salins, who was going to comment on the forum when debate was over -- but never did, and just evaporated.  Never could quite gauge if Greg had really done this and been embarrassed himself by the failure of it, or if he'd been having us on all along.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 18, 2007, 12:26:16 AM
I remember that debate well, Teddy.  It got rather ugly in the end.  Sahlins felt the natives were bound to their rituals, whereas Obeyesekere felt the natives could engage in power politics just as well as the Europeans, and that Sahlins treated the native rituals too literally.  I tend to agree with the latter view.  I imagine mosca was bluffing on his connections, but it seemed that anthropology was his strong suit.  He and Bradford had some nasty arguments over various authors.  I had my run-ins with mosca as well, but harbor no ill feelings.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 18, 2007, 12:35:59 AM
Ah, Dzimas, thank you for this!  I've been investigating on-line -- but you've got it I see.

Sahlins vs Obeyesekere. 

That you think Mosca was having us on helps a lot -- at that time, I recall being somewhat frustrated.  I had taken Sahlins' view in the debate -- but certainly respect your view.  I'm not sure that a "fallen god" would be much better or worse than a non-god to begin with -- or what the offense there might be regarding the concept of the former, or if it's really that important.  It seems Cook's men behaved badly, I recall, and Hawaiians' violence rather a plausible response, regardless of precisely why.







Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 18, 2007, 12:46:00 AM
One thing that stuck with me was the natives' method of categorizing like things -- ie pigs were of the same "species" as - say - dill weed -- or something.  A completely different system from the European taxonomy, needlesstosay -- but intriguing.


Title: Cook/Lono
Post by: Dzimas on May 18, 2007, 09:55:07 AM
Teddy, recently I was reading that Capt. John Smith misread the mock execution that was staged by Powhatan in which Pocahantas "saved" the good captain.  I suppose if you are on the receiving end of one of these rituals you would take things seriously, but it got me to thinking of the Cook/Lono debate.  Apparently, such rituals were standard fare among Powhatan's people at the time, and that such a ritual was a way of bringing someone of power into the tribe as a lesser chief.  Obeyesekere seemed to think that Cook was being exploited by the feuding tribes of Hawaii in a similar way, and when he failed to play along with the ritual, things turned nasty.  Obeyesekere tended to fly off on tangents that tested my patience but on the whole I thought he made a pretty good argument for the power politics that were occurring on Hawaii at the time and that Cook fell into the midst of one of these clashes.  But, it was Dr. Samuels (the ship's doctor) account ,which I found on the web at the time that convinced me that there were many holes in Sahlins' theory, at least the way mosca presented it, as Samuels noted that the crew was able to recover virtually all of Cook's fallen body and give him a proper burial at sea.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on May 18, 2007, 01:22:43 PM
Dzimas,

According to Rountree who did extensive study of the Eastern Algonquin speakers and the Powhatan, such ceremonies are NOT common. While it still may have taken place, it was not a common occurance. The common ceremony to include a "foreigner" into the tribe was a trial of walking on hot coals, not staging a head bashing with a savior. This DID happen to a Spaniard in Florida, which was published about the time Smith returned to England to nurse his leg. It is possible he read that account and somehow got it mixed up in his head about his own experience.

I still like Rountree's assertion that Pocahontas, as a prepubescent child not of a chiefly mother, would not likely have been in her father's house after dinner - she'd have been out with her sisters doing the dishes!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on May 18, 2007, 07:16:20 PM
I have just shared this link on American History, but in case there is anyone interested in history who is not on that list, but is here:

http://hnn.us:80/articles/38375.html

This is an article by a historian about the demise of the level of research going into books and even textbooks in our times. He complains that stuff is getting into print without a thorough going over for absolute accuracy. Maybe that's a good, probably it's a bad. It would seem to be the continuing source of the ever-circulating myths.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on May 18, 2007, 10:14:27 PM
Oh, I hate when I do that. Or write an email promising an attachment and then forget to include the attachment.



Title: How Natives Think
Post by: Dzimas on May 19, 2007, 02:40:24 AM
You are probably right, weezo, so it was a special case in regard to Smith.  Will have to read more on the subject now that my appetite is wetted.

nytempsperdu, the thing that most turned me off about Sahlins was the title of his book, How "Natives" Think: About Captain Cook, For Example,

http://www.amazon.com/How-Natives-Think-Captain-Example/dp/0226733696/ref=sr_1_4/002-1948969-6965627?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179555910&sr=1-4

I think the latter half of the title has been reworded since it was first published to make it sound a little less paternalistic.  Sahlins seems to subsribe to same view as Julian Jaynes that native people were predominantly "bicameral" in their thinking and therefore unable to see beyond their mythmaking and rituals.  There are a lot of conservative Christians and Muslims who fall into this category as well.  But, if natives were so literal minded why all the wonderful abstract representations?  It seemed to me that they could see beyond their rituals and take advantage of them for their own gain, such as one tribe claiming Cook as their own over another tribe.  As Obeyesekere pointed out, Cook had previously landed on Hawaii and come in contact with a different tribe, so there was already plenty of buzz generated about these great sailing ships and a captain dressed in such plumage as to suggest he carried with him great importance.  I imagine the more literal minded among the natives may have considered him a god or the reincarnation of Lono, but I think the chiefs probably viewed him as a worthy ally in their inter-island battles.

Todorov wrote a much more fascinating book about the Conquest of America,

http://www.amazon.com/Conquest-America-Question-Other/dp/0806131373/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1948969-6965627?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179556335&sr=1-1

In which Cortez was able to use his new found stature to full advantage, but also notes that events had conspired againts Montezuma, who was apparently so fatalistic as to believe the end of his empire was foretold, and that Cortez was the deliverer of this fate, that he all too easily succumbed to the conquistador. But, Montezuma's brother felt something was amiss and led an insurgency that ultimately led to the downfall of the Aztecs, as they had a hard time coping with Cortez's hardened battle tactics and the way he was able to allay satellite cities against Tenochtitlan.  Fascinating reading, as is Octavio Paz's The Labyrinth of Solitude, which explores the subject as well, but on a more personal level.

So, in the end Marshall Sahlins was simply too literal-minded for my taste.


Title: Re: Cook/Lono
Post by: teddy174c on May 20, 2007, 12:15:14 AM
Teddy, recently I was reading that Capt. John Smith misread the mock execution that was staged by Powhatan in which Pocahantas "saved" the good captain.  I suppose if you are on the receiving end of one of these rituals you would take things seriously, but it got me to thinking of the Cook/Lono debate.  Apparently, such rituals were standard fare among Powhatan's people at the time, and that such a ritual was a way of bringing someone of power into the tribe as a lesser chief.  Obeyesekere seemed to think that Cook was being exploited by the feuding tribes of Hawaii in a similar way, and when he failed to play along with the ritual, things turned nasty.  Obeyesekere tended to fly off on tangents that tested my patience but on the whole I thought he made a pretty good argument for the power politics that were occurring on Hawaii at the time and that Cook fell into the midst of one of these clashes.  But, it was Dr. Samuels (the ship's doctor) account ,which I found on the web at the time that convinced me that there were many holes in Sahlins' theory, at least the way mosca presented it, as Samuels noted that the crew was able to recover virtually all of Cook's fallen body and give him a proper burial at sea.

Dzimas, you've got an excellent memory.  (I've had to look up Sahlins, Obeyesekere, death of Cook, etc, to refresh my memory about what the chief points for each side of the debate were.)  Found this summary:  http://lilt.ilstu.edu/gmklass/foi/readings/captcook.htm

In retrospect, Sahlins theory would seem to be awfully neat -- coincidences happen but the coincidences of the timing of the Europeans' arrival with start of season of Lono (god of peace) worship, the route around the Island which the European ships took being the same as route traveled by Hawaiians in rites carrying icon of Lono, the unexpected return of the ship happening just as the Lono season ends and war god is worshipped (and violence therefore in ascendancy), all fitting perfectly in with the Cook/Lono theory, just seems too neat, especially when just looking at the final swift events that led to the death of Cook on the beach.  A more simple and obvious reason would seem to be simply that the Hawaiians had been pushed around by the foreigners long enough, despite having given hospitality, respect, food, etc., and said goodbye, the foreigners now had come back and Cook lost it demanding return of an animal and item that had been stolen, and some of the Hawaiians killed him (their chief had also been messed with, and a Hawaiian killed if I recall correctly).

In Sahlins' defense, as per his answer to Obeyeskere in summary of debate above, he apparently hadn't actually said the Hawaiians thought Cook himself was Lono, but possibly a "form of Lono".  According to one, the first thing said by a Hawaiian upon boarding the ship was "where's Lono?" -- as if this form of the god was expected before Cook was even seen, etc.  I don't have a problem with the notion that some of the Hawaiians perhaps in their own ethnocentric fashion may have believed that the foreigners were somehow conveniently/supportively contributing to or playing into their own rites of the season by arriving in tall ships at that moment -- but I suspect that if so, it wasn't long before the all too human aspects of Cook's men rendered those notions into something more akin to "it's our season of Lono, and we'll let you participate until it's over"..


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 20, 2007, 12:33:52 AM
OK, I refuse to kill another conversation, so I offer the opinion that what this place needs is a place for Odd News Items upon which we can comment.

To begin, I offer for your consideration, this: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-gorilla051807,0,925794.story?coll=la-home-center

Would some cunning linguist tell me if "Diergaarde" is pronounced "Dear God" and would others say if anyone but me thinks "Yvette de Rave" is highly unlikely to be anyone's real name (to me, it sounds like one of my dear City's beloved female impersonators).


NYT -- Are gorillas not normally mild-mannered?  I wonder if being kept locked in a cage enraged or maddened the gorilla, or if a certain percentage of animals, like humans, have a mental illness (ie could a gorilla suffer from hallucinations, delusions..?l

I don't know how "Diergaarde" is pronounced, but while on this topic ..

I've always said "bored with" -- as in "I'm bored with this or that" but note the phrase is usually written "bored of".  The first time I saw it so written was in Mad Magazine spoof on the Lord of the Rings -- ("Bored of the Rings"), and I thought was bad  grammar, jarring to the ear.  Except that now I note "bored of" all the time, and in thinking about it, we say "tired of" (not "tired with"); though it's "fed-up" with (not "fed up of") and "angry with" (not "angry of").  I guess "bored of" will never sound right to me, but I expect I've been wrong all along.  I wonder what the grammatical rule for this might be.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 20, 2007, 12:46:20 AM
I have just shared this link on American History, but in case there is anyone interested in history who is not on that list, but is here:

http://hnn.us:80/articles/38375.html

This is an article by a historian about the demise of the level of research going into books and even textbooks in our times. He complains that stuff is getting into print without a thorough going over for absolute accuracy. Maybe that's a good, probably it's a bad. It would seem to be the continuing source of the ever-circulating myths.


I really enjoyed Fausz's essay, weezo, depressing and frightening though it is regarding number of errors in, and our blind acceptance of, historical writing on subjects like Jamestown -- veering from myths about noble "first Americans", to pc reaction playing down massacres, key dates switched, leading to more myths, etc.  I'm interested now in Fred Fausz's books on Jamestown.


Title: Wild Chimps
Post by: Dzimas on May 20, 2007, 03:22:04 AM
Teddy, they were discussing the high degree of infanticide and cannibalism that occurs within chimpanzee communities on BBC the other day, so I have to wonder that gorillas aren't exactly at peace with each other either, especially when there are intruders in the mist.  I was shocked to hear that infanticide is quite prevelant in chimpanzee communities, apparently a way to drive off unwanted females.  The worst apart about is that it is other females killing and eating the baby chimps, which Goodall first noted in her studies, and has been further corroborated,

http://community.livejournal.com/anthropologist/1082191.html


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on May 20, 2007, 02:47:07 PM
Dzimas,

(appropo comment at which to jump in)  I was not sure if you ever received my thank you message to you after my shock of finding your name on a message about 3/4's of the year after you had sent it.

I was canvassing one day in the on-line community discovered in the Katrina aftermath, at the point when it became obvious that Obama was about to announce. But I had lost track of where we had left off and went to search under my name, by using the search feature, when I walked into this wall of  ongoing vehement  disparagement from another source that was recording whenever my name was mentioned.


It took a minute or two to  process that, perhaps even a time-out, which means when I returned to find out if I was seeing correctly, I realized that it  was your name on a message  for which I am very thankful.

What I decided to do was address a thank you to you at the number given that registered your message, so here we are almost a year later and I want to assure you that I am really grateful for your kindness in taking a stand for me under those circumstances.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on May 20, 2007, 05:17:29 PM
Hi, Maddy.  Don't forget to stop by the Gardening discussion and tell me if you attended the Herb and Garden Faire that was held recently in Lancaster, PA.


Title: NYTimes
Post by: Dzimas on May 21, 2007, 02:44:33 AM
No problemo, madupont.  I missed the worst of that battle but thought it very unfair that NYTimes should cut you off.  I'm glad to see you back in the forums where you belong.  I really don't get that newspaper.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 21, 2007, 06:16:24 PM
NYTemps...I don't remember what I read in eighth grade either, but I certainly wish it had been Macbeth dot com...too funny    ;)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 21, 2007, 07:47:22 PM
Sign of the Times:  Kid's 8th grade English class is reading the Scottish play (and seeing the Roman Polanski & Orson Welles movies to write a comparison paper--what a way to end the school year, and this follows their readings of Animal Farm and The Wave.  (This teacher apparently has a thing about abuse of power, which is good, I guess.  I have no idea what I read in 8th grade, but I know what I didn't.) 

Anyway, when one kid read a line  that went something like "Hark, MacBeth doth come" the class heard it as "MacBeth dot com" which, of course, is how the play will be referred to in the class (and maybe by me unless my middle age memory loss comes to my rescue).

Ha!  That's very funny NY.  Sounds to me like an extraordinary class your child is in --


Title: Re: Wild Chimps
Post by: teddy174c on May 21, 2007, 07:56:19 PM
Teddy, they were discussing the high degree of infanticide and cannibalism that occurs within chimpanzee communities on BBC the other day, so I have to wonder that gorillas aren't exactly at peace with each other either, especially when there are intruders in the mist.  I was shocked to hear that infanticide is quite prevelant in chimpanzee communities, apparently a way to drive off unwanted females.  The worst apart about is that it is other females killing and eating the baby chimps, which Goodall first noted in her studies, and has been further corroborated,

http://community.livejournal.com/anthropologist/1082191.html

Dzimas,

This is grim news -- I do seem to remember seeing in a Jane Goodall's documentary the incident of the first killing mentioned in the above article, when it was thought to be a freak incident/aberration.

I guess not surprising -- not so different from close relatives, the humans, when you think of all the wars and blood shed over, essentially, territory (despite religion being used as reason).


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on May 21, 2007, 08:21:54 PM
NY Temp,

A wonderful story! Thanks for sharing!


Title: Tintin turns 100!
Post by: Dzimas on May 22, 2007, 03:40:59 AM
The creator of Tintin turns 100! 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070521/ap_on_en_ot/tintin

The proposed new trilogy has long been overdue.  I often confused Tintin for his dog Snowy.  I guess Rin Tin Tin had something to do with this.  It was interesting to read that the first book was a satire on the socialist ambitions of the Soviet Union,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tintin_in_the_Land_of_the_Soviets

But, my guess is that Spielberg will pretty much take the stories at face value.


Title: The Territorial Imperative
Post by: Dzimas on May 22, 2007, 03:53:36 AM
Teddy, the book that often came up during the anthropological digressions in the non-fiction forums was Interpretation of Cultures by Clifford Geertz:

http://www.amazon.com/Interpretation-Cultures-Basic-Books-Classics/dp/0465097197/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1948969-6965627?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179819735&sr=8-1

I haven't read it, but I tracked down a first edition through abebooks.  It was first published in 1973, but apparently remains one of the key books in anthropological studies.

Years ago, I read an interesting pair of books on the origins of mankind for a sociology class.  One by Robert Ardrey, The Territorial Imperative, and the other by Richard Leakey, People of the Lake.  Ardrey, who wasn't an anthropologist by profession, argued that Australopithecus was an omnivore, much like the chimpanzee, but Leakey insisted that this proto-human was a vegetarian, living a pretty much docile life, like he imagined the chimpanzee to be living as well.  Evidence at the time seemed to support Leakey's assertations, but these latest articles on chimpanzees seem to have proven Ardrey to be more correct in saying that mankind has a territorial imperative built into his DNA, and it has been exercised from the beginning.


Title: Re: The Territorial Imperative
Post by: teddy174c on May 22, 2007, 09:42:57 AM
Teddy, the book that often came up during the anthropological digressions in the non-fiction forums was Interpretation of Cultures by Clifford Geertz:

http://www.amazon.com/Interpretation-Cultures-Basic-Books-Classics/dp/0465097197/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1948969-6965627?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179819735&sr=8-1

I haven't read it, but I tracked down a first edition through abebooks.  It was first published in 1973, but apparently remains one of the key books in anthropological studies.

Years ago, I read an interesting pair of books on the origins of mankind for a sociology class.  One by Robert Ardrey, The Territorial Imperative, and the other by Richard Leakey, People of the Lake.  Ardrey, who wasn't an anthropologist by profession, argued that Australopithecus was an omnivore, much like the chimpanzee, but Leakey insisted that this proto-human was a vegetarian, living a pretty much docile life, like he imagined the chimpanzee to be living as well.  Evidence at the time seemed to support Leakey's assertations, but these latest articles on chimpanzees seem to have proven Ardrey to be more correct in saying that mankind has a territorial imperative built into his DNA, and it has been exercised from the beginning.

Dzimas -- fascinating stuff.  Interesting that after a life time of work in the field, Leakey missed this behaviour in chimps possibly because the particular chimps he observed didn't have territorial problems at the time -- (now, thanks to man's encroachment, the behaviour will presumably be seen much more).

Re "territorial imperative built into his DNA", it would seem to be a no-brainer -- isn't the history of man's wars and invasions,  essentially to do with territory and resources? 



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 23, 2007, 01:37:42 AM
Teddy, it seemed anthropologists at one point liked to think of early hominids living in a garden of eden as well.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 23, 2007, 03:14:09 AM
I was reading Nnyhavs Blog a few nights ago and he was talking about Halldor Laxness and his novel "Iceland's Bell" which I just started.It is as good or better so far than his Nobel Prize winning "Independent People".Certainly a lot more upbeat.The late Laxness has a few other novels translated into English and I want to read them also.On another note I came across a new Bernd Heinrich  tonight this one a memoir about his and his fathers life.Heinrich is a superb writer of nature especially ravens and had a beautiful book about raising an orphaned owl.Teddy and Arvds are fans along with myself.I had a friend say that I should read"Where Bigfoot Walks" by Robert Michael Pyle from around 1995 and "Wickerby" by Charles Siebert another nature type book this one describing his crime ridden area in NYC vs the girlfriends family property in rural Quebec also from some years ago.Along with"Snow" and "Portrait of a Lady" I have a nice early summer lined up with Nature/Literature.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 23, 2007, 05:26:42 AM
One wins the Nobel Prize for literature for the body of his or her work, not a single work.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on May 23, 2007, 03:43:57 PM
I was shocked—simply shocked, my dears—to stumble on a rather recent somewhat tacky exchange of opinions about our sweet dearest maddy—the shining jewel of the NYTimes! (Please see the link below.)

How could people be so insensitive and cruel to such a nice loquacious intelligent all-knowing lady like Madupont? After all, she was only defending the sanctity of the NYTimes and poor beleaguered “Tricky Micky” Sussman over there.

So happy to see the old gang again—especially in Creative Writing. Definitely a breath of fresh air!

http://www.topix.net/forum/business/publishing/TAETDPLOO5FQABOUK



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on May 23, 2007, 05:17:43 PM
My last post to the NYTimes Readers Group

I hate to tell you this, uglyrump and commuterguy:

1 The Reading Group is dead.

2 This Voting forum is a sinking ship.

3 And you two rats are the last rats to abandon ship.

4 Lifeline is the biggest rat—he’s dominated this vote forum not me. Him and his scabby nose and rats.

5 I’ve been chatting away like we’re suppose to.

6 Not carping and kvetching like you two.

7 Sussman knows it’s a Ship of Fools.

8 Podcast authors are much more interesting than us.

9 Who cares what Readers have to say?

10 Look at your whiney posts—that’s why.

11 That’s why the Readers Group is dead.

12 No brain cells up there baby!!!!

13 Long live the Readers Group.

14 Long live slimy Lifeline.

15 Long live poshlust.

http://forums.nytimes.com/top/opinion/readersopinions/forums/books/voteforthereadinggroupbook/index.html?offset=387&fid=.fac5bc6/387 



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on May 24, 2007, 11:24:44 AM
Pugetopolis, I hope you will not drag all that tacky baggage from the old NYT Forums over here.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on May 24, 2007, 02:04:44 PM
Tacky baggage?

There you again, donny. Telling me what to post and how to post and what not to post about.

Get real please, donnyboy. You're a "retired" school teacher now so please don't "lecture" or "scold" or be "bossy" with me. Your pushy somewhat "alpha male" Lounge Lizard personae over in the "forum whose name can't be mentioned" didn't bother me that much then or now. Go ahead and do what you want. I don't care anymore about you, lifeline, msussman or any of the other NYTimes creeps.

But with a title like "Xscape from Elba--Exiles from the New York Times" it does seem rather difficult to me to escape the consequences of what happened to us over at the NYTimes and to try and avoid the pitfalls and mistakes that caused problems over there.

Rather than doing a "closet-case" routine on it dontchanow.

Perhaps "tacky baggage" can't be avoided such as prejudice, homophobia and rudeness? Or "lurkers" who never contribute to the Readers Group discussion but only wanted to pigeon-hole, politicize and put-down people with snarky" one-liners like your comment above. Some people carry around their own "coffee-klatch" mentalities no matter where they go. Sound familiar donny?

But then "meander" may mean something more narrow and restricted to you. Meander to me means freedom to discuss the past and learn from it. Isn't that why we're "exiles from the NYTimes"? Something went wrong over there. Obviously.

And before you tell me to "shut-up" and not discuss it, perhaps you should pause a moment and think about why you're here and what happened over there.

Without blaming me, of course -- your standard repertoire. :-)















Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 24, 2007, 06:23:06 PM
Pugetopolis...I'm surprised that Lifeline can still post over there.  I tried to respond to McFleming's and your posts a few days back and was locked out.  Apparently they can block who they choose...I'm not quite sure what got me kicked off though.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on May 24, 2007, 11:33:42 PM
The blogosphere

Hoffman…try it again. The NYTimes pulls little tricks like that—giving you the brush-off with a false-flag inaccessible post. They’ve pulled it with me and a lot of others. The idea being after the first rejection—then people will go away.

The glitches we went thru over there were meant for one thing—to get rid of us. That’s why Lifeline is allowed to cut and paste spam even now in the End Times—the more the better from msussman & company’s point of view. Drive the readers away and show how the readers forum has fallen onto hard times and spam-queen skullduggery. "Put them out of their misery," as msussman said in a post.

Basically so that msussman can advance his career and buttress the pay podcast venue. Why not? The blogosphere is moving in that direction with youtube and podcasts anyway A recent NYTimes article gave it their blessing—the Old Gray Lady moves on, baby. Who are we to dare question TPTB who run Bookville Inc.

Your blog “Books R Us” is doing fine. I like the Elba blog here too—obviously others have more time, energy and courage than me. I’m simply a very minor poet who asked why not a poetry forum? Instead they purged our Paglia “Break Blow Burn” May forum first—and then went after the rest. It was too successful—they had other plans.

The amazing thing in all that was being blamed and blacklisted by management and old-guard malcontents for a corporate decision to push podcasts over forums—which didn’t catch me by surprise. Anybody that’s worked in an office knows office politics well—especially in the newspaper business with the NYTimes at the very heart of some intense ongoing politics. Money talks, bullsh** walks.

So many of the rats jumping ship pointed their finger to us—rather than lifeline, msussman and the various and sundry charming trolls that came and went. The Gravity Rainbow forum was a case in point. Some of the smarmy old guard were jealous & not ready for the success of our Paglia pre-blog dialoging with over 900 posts in BBB. But all that is history now and I have other writing projects to attend to. Like a book of urban haiku poetry.

Adapting to the blogosphere aesthetic will be a major challenge for many print-readers and older forumites. The new collegiate crowd has embraced the blogosphere completely—I learn something new each time I’m at the B&N book temple in the university district.

Long live books—and blogs too.    :-)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 25, 2007, 12:01:53 AM
Teddy, it seemed anthropologists at one point liked to think of early hominids living in a garden of eden as well.

Dzimas.  Ha! And St. Augustine spoke of the wailing baby (evil driven) bred into all of us .

To digress completely.

Saw what I think is a very good movie on Victoria Day (Monday, May 21st - Canadian stat holiday) - "Away from Her'" directed by Sarah Polley (of "Road to Avonlea" fame), a 28 year old Canadian actress/director -- based on Alice Munro's short story "The Bear Came Over the Mountain", starring Canadian icon actor Gordon Pinsent and Julie Christie -- re a couple beset by Alzheimer's.

At any rate -- I haven't read the story -- if anyone has, please advise (apparently printed in 1999 New Yorker.)

I would be intersted in reading the details in the life of an American architect living in Lithuanian.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on May 25, 2007, 05:09:01 AM
I've been eyeing the Everyman's Library collection of Alice Munro:

http://www.amazon.com/Carried-Away-Selection-Stories-Everymans/dp/0307264866

Maybe one day, teddy.  I had mused over the title "Reveries of an Itinerant Architect: Have T-Square, Will Travel" but I'm pretty much homebound these days.  Coming up on my 10th year in Vilnus.  I've been thinking "Vilnius Days," as of late.  So much to tell, but to find the time to tell it.



Title: A Journey without Maps
Post by: Dzimas on May 25, 2007, 05:20:14 AM
For what it is worth, pugetopolis and hoffman, I have been reading A Journey without Maps, and plan on taking part in a discussion should Mick plug us in on June 1.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on May 25, 2007, 12:43:42 PM
The creative writing board here is insanely funny and addictive.  (I couldn't work that comment into the stream of semi-consciousness over there, so...)

Carry on.  Continue meandering.  If you come to a fork in the road, take it.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on May 25, 2007, 02:36:26 PM
"Take that next fork in the road--or it will fork you, baby."
--Graham Greene, Journey Without Maps


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on May 25, 2007, 03:50:33 PM
Dzimas, I have the book and plan on reading it.  May have to do it here, though, because the NYT won't let me post. 

I'll try again if the Greene discussion sets up there.  I don't know why they booted me....

Who knew...me a rebel...think I'll go buy a leather jacket. ;)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on May 25, 2007, 04:32:12 PM
"Saw what I think is a very good movie on Victoria Day (Monday, May 21st - Canadian stat holiday) - "Away from Her'" directed by Sarah Polley (of "Road to Avonlea" fame), a 28 year old Canadian actress/director -- based on Alice Munro's short story "The Bear Came Over the Mountain", starring Canadian icon actor Gordon Pinsent and Julie Christie -- re a couple beset by Alzheimer's.

At any rate -- I haven't read the story -- if anyone has, please advise (apparently printed in 1999 New Yorker.)"

Dear Teddy,

I am hoping for this movie to appear almost immediately because, when I read the review, I knew the story: it was coming back to me but I am very vague on it.  I know that Colburn and I discussed another of her works and how she does them, so it bothered me why I recognized this entire story (and, I must admit, I might have cast it differently back then); all that I recall is that I did talk with someone else about this particular story in the nytimes.com forums because, it was so right on, in the motivations, if you will pardon the expression? Despite the fact of the Alzheimers, there is the matter of intent perhaps very deep but surfacing nonetheless. I'd compare it to having practiced the piano all your life; and, then when nobody expects it, because you are obviously "past it", you sit down one afternoon and begin to play, to the astonishment of all those who witness this divertisement (perhaps, in a community for senior citizens?).  I used to think that Alice was my mother's age or, as she had been, because of a strong physical resemblence; after hearing some of what her daughters had to say, I realize that  Alice Munro and I are closer to being contemporaries. I sent "Castle Rock" off to one of my younger sisters for Christmas.

Well, I have good news for you. http://www.newyorker.com/
Because of the movie, you are in luck.  When you get to web-site, look carefully at the left margin and scroll down to video where it says:
 Julie Christie           short story        click and you're on.

I am off to read it and would love to discuss it with you. I am eager to hear your interpretations of her sparse use of language which merely has to suggest to you that you know what she is saying.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 25, 2007, 11:08:38 PM
I've been eyeing the Everyman's Library collection of Alice Munro:

http://www.amazon.com/Carried-Away-Selection-Stories-Everymans/dp/0307264866

Maybe one day, teddy.  I had mused over the title "Reveries of an Itinerant Architect: Have T-Square, Will Travel" but I'm pretty much homebound these days.  Coming up on my 10th year in Vilnus.  I've been thinking "Vilnius Days," as of late.  So much to tell, but to find the time to tell it.



Dzimas -- well I hope so.  If Gopnik can report from Paris ..

(Great title!)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 25, 2007, 11:11:16 PM
The creative writing board here is insanely funny and addictive.  (I couldn't work that comment into the stream of semi-consciousness over there, so...)

Carry on.  Continue meandering.  If you come to a fork in the road, take it.



Becky -- I agree -- it's hilarious and zany, crude, campy, chaotic, -- fodder for the analyst's chair (if he can figure out who's who)!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 25, 2007, 11:13:45 PM
"Saw what I think is a very good movie on Victoria Day (Monday, May 21st - Canadian stat holiday) - "Away from Her'" directed by Sarah Polley (of "Road to Avonlea" fame), a 28 year old Canadian actress/director -- based on Alice Munro's short story "The Bear Came Over the Mountain", starring Canadian icon actor Gordon Pinsent and Julie Christie -- re a couple beset by Alzheimer's.

At any rate -- I haven't read the story -- if anyone has, please advise (apparently printed in 1999 New Yorker.)"

Dear Teddy,

I am hoping for this movie to appear almost immediately because, when I read the review, I knew the story: it was coming back to me but I am very vague on it.  I know that Colburn and I discussed another of her works and how she does them, so it bothered me why I recognized this entire story (and, I must admit, I might have cast it differently back then); all that I recall is that I did talk with someone else about this particular story in the nytimes.com forums because, it was so right on, in the motivations, if you will pardon the expression? Despite the fact of the Alzheimers, there is the matter of intent perhaps very deep but surfacing nonetheless. I'd compare it to having practiced the piano all your life; and, then when nobody expects it, because you are obviously "past it", you sit down one afternoon and begin to play, to the astonishment of all those who witness this divertisement (perhaps, in a community for senior citizens?).  I used to think that Alice was my mother's age or, as she had been, because of a strong physical resemblence; after hearing some of what her daughters had to say, I realize that  Alice Munro and I are closer to being contemporaries. I sent "Castle Rock" off to one of my younger sisters for Christmas.

Well, I have good news for you. http://www.newyorker.com/
Because of the movie, you are in luck.  When you get to web-site, look carefully at the left margin and scroll down to video where it says:
 Julie Christie           short story        click and you're on.

I am off to read it and would love to discuss it with you. I am eager to hear your interpretations of her sparse use of language which merely has to suggest to you that you know what she is saying.



Thanks so much for this Madupont!  I've printed off and e-mailed to my mother.  Will read and share views as soon as I finish.




Title: Architecture in Lithuania
Post by: Dzimas on May 26, 2007, 05:54:20 AM
Teddy, you can get an inkling of what I do in Lithuania by visiting this website:

www.ferguson-studio.com

Leaning more toward eco-architecture these days.  Got a client right now who is interested in doing a staw-bale house.  We'll see how it goes.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on May 26, 2007, 06:24:25 AM
Dzimas,

Beautiful buildings shown on your website. It must be quite interesting to be in Lithuania. Do you speak the language? Or, do enough of the residents speak English to get along. When my sister went to Finland on business, she found it easy to get along with just English, since so many pride themselves ono speaking good English.

Interesting idea of building a house out of hay bales. What will happen as they decompose? I've heard of it done stateside, but the haybales were plastered over inside and out to ward off the decay. Is that what you are doing?



Title: Straw bale houses
Post by: Dzimas on May 26, 2007, 08:39:34 AM
Glad you enjoyed the site, weezo.  I speak a little Lithuanian, but communicate mostly in English.  Unfortunately, my family all speaks English now, including my 6-year old daughter, so I don't get the practice I should.  Straw bale can be clad in any material, including natural plaster.  Lithuanians like thick walls, so strawbales are a nice alternative to cement blocks and log construction.  Properly compressed strawbales withstand a 2-hour fire test, making them suitable for residential construction, and are vermin and insect proof.  The idea has been around a long time.  Some strawbale houses are as old as 100 years. Here's a picture of one in Nebraska that dates back to 1925,

http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/info/components/envelope/framing/strawbale.html

Like ethanol for cars, strawbale construction is enjoying a resurgence in America and Europe.  Many how-to websites and books are now available.  The key is to avoid moisture intrusion into the hay bales, by properly waterproofing the foundation.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: thanatopsy on May 26, 2007, 08:53:50 AM
www.ferguson-studio.com

A real neat web site! :)


Title: Re: Architecture in Lithuania
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 26, 2007, 11:12:29 AM
Teddy, you can get an inkling of what I do in Lithuania by visiting this website:

www.ferguson-studio.com

Leaning more toward eco-architecture these days.  Got a client right now who is interested in doing a staw-bale house.  We'll see how it goes.
You know, considering how much Eastern Europeans smoke, that may not be the optimum choice for building materials.


Title: Re: Architecture in Lithuania
Post by: teddy174c on May 26, 2007, 12:06:53 PM
Teddy, you can get an inkling of what I do in Lithuania by visiting this website:

www.ferguson-studio.com

Leaning more toward eco-architecture these days.  Got a client right now who is interested in doing a staw-bale house.  We'll see how it goes.
You know, considering how much Eastern Europeans smoke, that may not be the optimum choice for building materials.

Whiskey - and considering the vodka also ... (Flame feeder or quencher?)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on May 26, 2007, 12:09:52 PM
Teddy, why are you calling me "Becky" ?

best regards,

Barton Fink, formerly Bartonphink of the NYT, formerly Nilson2001 of the NYT, formerly a quivering zygote





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 26, 2007, 12:11:06 PM
Teddy, why are you calling me "Becky" ?

best regards,

Barton Fink, formerly Bartonphink of the NYT, formerly Nilson2001 of the NYT, formerly a quivering zygote





Apologies Barton -- I thought you were Becky aka Desdemona!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on May 26, 2007, 12:13:02 PM
Mention of Victoria Day reminds me of how much I like the Torontonian SF writer Robert Sawyer, whose newly published "Rollback" is a wonderful character study of an elderly couple who are divided by the uneven results of a longevity treatment.  Sawyer is transcending genre.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on May 26, 2007, 12:14:40 PM
No offense taken, Teddy.  And I'm posting on the most trifling matters, as I continue my quest for the airy heights of Junion Member-hood.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on May 26, 2007, 01:02:14 PM
No offense taken, Teddy.  And I'm posting on the most trifling matters, as I continue my quest for the airy heights of Junion Member-hood.
Junior Member?  Piffle.  We Hero Members see you Junior Members as little better than newbies.

I sure hope that liq takes my advice and makes the level after "Hero Member" "Jerk-off Time Waster."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on May 26, 2007, 01:42:51 PM
No need, we all understood that that was implied by "hero."



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on May 26, 2007, 03:10:11 PM
I've been eyeing the Everyman's Library collection of Alice Munro:

http://www.amazon.com/Carried-Away-Selection-Stories-Everymans/dp/0307264866

Maybe one day, teddy.  I had mused over the title "Reveries of an Itinerant Architect: Have T-Square, Will Travel" but I'm pretty much homebound these days.  Coming up on my 10th year in Vilnus.  I've been thinking "Vilnius Days," as of late.  So much to tell, but to find the time to tell it.



Dzimas -- well I hope so.  If Gopnik can report from Paris ..

(Great title!)



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on May 26, 2007, 03:29:47 PM
Teddy:

I bought Gopnik's,From Paris to the Moon, recently at a cheap price, while picking up things to support a Library which would enable them to buy more books; and truth be told I bought the above because it was at the time of the French elections and I needed some cross-section of current sociology by arrondisement despite my friend at the Labor Bureau who doesn't think the electronic elections could be thrown.

Otherwise, Gopnik, on literature, leaves me cold. Magazine articles in relation to literature are a mistake. They just are not the same as peer review for which NYRB is the best option.

Which reminds me, do we Meander into Alice's genre or who is on Fiction, I hadn't checked and they might be busily engaged?

B


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 26, 2007, 06:55:59 PM
No offense taken, Teddy.  And I'm posting on the most trifling matters, as I continue my quest for the airy heights of Junion Member-hood.

Barton,

Until I ready Whiskeypriest's right now, I'd been planning to ask you if there was anything beyond "Senior Member".  (I was going to suggest something like "person in desperate need of a life" -- but Whiskey's is much funnier.)  Glad to see that I have now reached the exalted Junior Member status.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 26, 2007, 06:56:47 PM
No need, we all understood that that was implied by "hero."



Ha!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 26, 2007, 06:59:39 PM
Teddy:

I bought Gopnik's,From Paris to the Moon, recently at a cheap price, while picking up things to support a Library which would enable them to buy more books; and truth be told I bought the above because it was at the time of the French elections and I needed some cross-section of current sociology by arrondisement despite my friend at the Labor Bureau who doesn't think the electronic elections could be thrown.

Otherwise, Gopnik, on literature, leaves me cold. Magazine articles in relation to literature are a mistake. They just are not the same as peer review for which NYRB is the best option.

Which reminds me, do we Meander into Alice's genre or who is on Fiction, I hadn't checked and they might be busily engaged?

B


Madupont -- I haven't read Paris to the Moon, though read a rather negative review of it in the New Yorker which prejudiced me against it (surprises me now that the NY would print an article slamming one of their regular and valued contributers -- but that's good I guess) -- not smart.  Everything I've read of his I think I've really enjoyed.

I read "The Bear Came over the Mountain" (printed, thanks to you, from your link to the New Yorker ) last night and would be happy to discuss it with you here.

Alice Munro seems a natural born story teller -- I imagine her endlessly prolific, with little agonizing or editing necessary, but who knows, perhaps this and other stories were painfully worked over before the final cut.  Her stories seem to flow, with, as you say, not a word out of place, or without purpose -- yet are not spare, in the sense that she doesn't artfully expand on true observations, describe natural beauty, human quirks, etc.

Describing the outline briefly, it would seem to be a tragic story of the "movie of the week variety", about one half of an elderly couple afflicted with memory loss, committed to a care facility, but in fact is a rather triumphant story about love of the kind we're not so used to reading about or seeing, which is young love - no this is a story about love at the end of a life together, rather than the beginning.

Some samples of Munro's writing prowess:

"Plenty of snow was left, but the dazzling hard landscape of earlier winter had crumbled.  These pocked heaps under a gray sky looked like refuse in the fields".

Regarding Marion, the hard-edged wife of Aubrey, the morose, wheelchair-bound  friend or "boyfriend" of Fiona at the facility, whom Grant is hoping will return Aubrey to the facility to visit Fiona for her sake, to make her happier again:

"Being up against a person like that made him feel hopeless, exasperated, finally almost desolate.  Why?  Because he couldn't be sure of holding on to himself, against people like that?  Because he was afraid that in the end they were right?  Yet he might have married her.  Or some girl like that.  If he'd stayed back where he belonged.  She'd have been appetizing enough.  Probably a flirt.  The fussy way she had of shifting her buttocks on the kitchen chair, her pursed mouth, a slightly contrived air of menace - that was what was left of the more or less innocent vulgarity of a small town flirt."

Interesting to consider what changes are made to a story to make it "cinematic", in this case, such as splitting the main care person Grant befriends into two people for the movie (with the Supervisor taking on the more officious, less-likable characteristics -- or so it seems to me), the albeit brief bedroom scene in the movie that doesn't exist and is only hinted at as a possibility in the story, -- but for the most part, I think the movie does Munro proud.  Would be interested to read what she thinks.









Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on May 27, 2007, 01:43:17 AM
Teddy, I've read Gopnik's "Paris to the Moon" and enjoyed it.  I read it along with "60 Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" (sorry I don't remember the author).  I came away from both books with a different view of The French.  A positive one, overall.

Dzimas, speaking of architecture, what say you about this?

  http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/26/arts/design/26visi.html


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on May 27, 2007, 02:18:26 AM
Teddy,

"Regarding Marion, the hard-edged wife of Aubrey",  there is a balancing value given in the text, to even out for that scene which you suggest varies in movie from short story, that  "the albeit brief bedroom scene" which takes place in the senior care center because Aubrey is leaving.    Munro has "hinted at as a possibility in the story," in the last three lines at the end of the second page before the last scene, in which Fiona is waiting(unbeknownst to us and possibly to her) for Grant to pick her up and take her back home.

This second to last scene takes place after the description you have given of Marion as Grant views her sitting in her own kitchen; after which she leaves two messages, rather quickly, on his answering machine. This is what he thinks:
"He had  that to think of as he dialled the number that he had already written down. That and the practical sensuality of her cat's tongue."

Prior to that, "He hadn't remembered anything about Aubrey's wife except the tartan suit he had seen her wearing in the parking lot. The tails of the jacket had flared open as she bent into the trunk of the car. He had got the impression of a trim waist and wide buttocks."

Here, Munro uses an elision in time quite rapidly; two short sentences describe what she is wearing today when he arrives at her house prior to that kitchen scene where he figures her out, which you have described above. Before entering the house, Munro puts these thoughts in Grant's perceptions, "He was right about the waist---the tight belt showed she made a point of it."

So there is more complexity of intent,motivation beneath the surface of any scene's conventional behaviour; we only see the surface but that's just some of  her spare or sparse style. She is equally spare, in the shortest language that she chooses to use in describing that motivation.

"Would be interested to read what she thinks."  On second reading of your comment, I gather you mean what she thinks of the movie made from her story?  I haven't yet caught her speaking about what she thinks of any or her stories, through any number of interviews that have been done. Although, in one television interview with a particularly British-accented interviewer who is not timorous about asking Alice about pot-smoking, you watch an elderly Alice Munro cover by a divide between herself as mother of a young woman who has written about when she was at the age of smoking,and Alice as herself in those earlier years. With this, an elision once again, of free association, she immediately says something to the effect of we lived rather "poorly" in those years. She does not mean to say that was the economic situation, because she enlarges on this a bit by saying that "we had a sense of being able to do our life over"(I paraphrase here from memory), at which point I figured out which years she was about to say those were.

From somewhere in the 1960s to somewhere in the 1970s, in which Munro admits "we just did what we wanted. Couples changed to new marriages. Those who were still married, merely once, almost were apologetic about it, explaining they were rather slow because they were new at it."

Believe it or not, that experience came up with great opposition to it from the posters during a discussion of one of the stories in, Runaway. Prior to the reading discussion, Jonathan Franzen had done nearly a half-page of The New York Times praise of Alice Munro in the Book Review, and the letters that came in to Book Review came from the "Conservative Right", who objected to such writing (of both writers) being allowed in the NYT.  I immediately wrote to both publishers that this had been the reaction. By the time that everyone had said what they had to say about various stories and had dropped out of the discussion, I finally encountered the story that made perfect sense to me which is a melange of three different phases of the female character's life. And I knew that I was about to deal with a sense of moral outrage from one or perhaps two posters who were there to post moral outrage. In the end, point by point examining the character's motivations as part of a "period culture", which one has to accept as having been the way things were done. Finally, I resorted to the bottom line, that the mores and proprieties of Ontario were then not what they are in the US today.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 27, 2007, 11:40:08 AM
Teddy,

"Regarding Marion, the hard-edged wife of Aubrey",  there is a balancing value given in the text, to even out for that scene which you suggest varies in movie from short story, that  "the albeit brief bedroom scene" which takes place in the senior care center because Aubrey is leaving.    Munro has "hinted at as a possibility in the story," in the last three lines at the end of the second page before the last scene, in which Fiona is waiting(unbeknownst to us and possibly to her) for Grant to pick her up and take her back home.

Thanks Maddy -- I had actually forgotten the lovemaking "scene" (in the sense Fiona in the movie says and you know they are going to make love and you see the beginning and end without actually seeing the scene itself, only Grant humorously and guiltily zipping himself up afterwards as an attendant walks by) in the care centre between Fiona and Grant, which I don't think is even hinted at at all in the story -- though you may prove me wrong -- (unlike the pretty clear suggestions of what will and then does transpire with Grant's thinking process after Marion leaves the calls, and then his appearance with Aubrey at the centre in the final scene). 

To my mind Munro brilliantly depicts the plausible thought process of Grant as he ponders Marion's need after listening to her messages, and what her state of mind and loneliness actually is, and depicts his conflicting thoughts and feelings about this (from being a little pleased and flattered to coolly considering her flesh, neck, etc and ultimately, for Fiona's sake, endeavouring to prime himself for an act essentially of prostitution one might say -- though this would be a tad harsh --with the lines you quoted -- "The walnut-stain tan - he believed now that it was a tan - of her face and neck would most likely continue into cleavage, which would be deep, crepey-skinned, odorous and hot.  He had that to think of [my italics] as he dialled the number that he had already written down.  That and the practical sensuality of her cat's tongue.  Her gemstone eyes").

In the movie there is one perhaps 5-10 second scene showing them actually lying side by side post-sex, with expressions of -- what, embarrassment, amusement, then Marion's face crumbling into almost tears -- as if to suggest the emotion of finally finding intimacy with someone after years and years -- or alternatively, acute embarrassment and dismay at how it has gone (or not gone) -- (I suspect the former).  Anyway -- movies aren't so adept at elision so I guess screenwriter felt the need to drive the point home.

Another thing to consider about Grant's intimacy with Marion -- how the motivation for it is so different from when he fooled around with his young women students 20-30 years earlier (which is another story, but Grant's sensations and motivations at the time of those infidelities sensitively, acutely described by Munro).


Believe it or not, that experience came up with great opposition to it from the posters during a discussion of one of the stories in, Runaway. Prior to the reading discussion, Jonathan Franzen had done nearly a half-page of The New York Times praise of Alice Munro in the Book Review, and the letters that came in to Book Review came from the "Conservative Right", who objected to such writing (of both writers) being allowed in the NYT.  I immediately wrote to both publishers that this had been the reaction...

That's intersting about your experience with Munro's stories on the other site -- I can't believe the "conservative right" would be up in arms against her (I supposed they'd do same with Updike's stories set in the unfaithful sixties).  What a bunch of morons.



Title: Journey Without Maps
Post by: Dzimas on May 27, 2007, 01:10:04 PM
Thanks for the positive feedback on my website.

I've been enjoying Journey Without Maps this weekend.  Greene has a wonderful way of taking you on a safari, but it is odd how few times he mentions his "cousin," on his travels through West Africa.  I would have thought he would have done more to bring her into his travel log, but she remains outside his pale of vision, telling more about his porters than he does her. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on May 27, 2007, 02:57:51 PM
"Calculating God" was enjoyable -- speculation about godlike intelligence along with a charming first-contact storyline and some crazy fundamentalists thrown in.  One of his lighter novels.  And provokes a desire to visit the Royal Ontario Museum and finally see those Burgess shales.

"Mindscan" his most recent before "Rollback," was mind-blowing.  It generates the sort of "what is the self?" migraines that you can get from reading Ray Kurzweil.





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on May 27, 2007, 04:33:17 PM
"I can't believe the "conservative right" would be up in arms against her ..."  Teddy174c « Reply #264 on: Today at 11:40:08 AM »

The particular story of how Alice's heroine( who seems very deeply Alice in personality since she leaves a clue in something that she is reading which turns out to be a textbook from when she taught "Classics", kind of like our friend Theta from Ancient Literature and Myth but, this text throws a whole different light on the story because it was actually taught at Berkeley during the McCarthy era and addresses one of my favourite conundrums, Why did the Greeks at the height of their scientific realizations and investigations revert -- to superstition and mythos? The writer of that text says it was political.) deals with how she gets pregnant  after meeting a man who makes an impression on her as she does the Trans-Canadian railway stint on a lark --which, of course, is something Munro really did in life, moving from Ontario to Vancouver and then eventually back again because of stories that she wanted to write--but with a change of husbands in between.

That for openers on the beach in B.C. is the burning funereal pyre of her husband in the Greek manner with all their friends assembled.  She then goes through a series of flashbacks and you discover the daughter, born of her spontaneous idea of pregnancy and marriage, is the only person who hasn't been told that her father is dead. She's away.

Now if this isn't unconventional enough to disturb the Conservative right, there's the factor of Alice's heroine going home to live with her dying mother, during her own gestation period. Mother and daughter of those two generations, prior to the eventual daughter in the womb,  are taking care of each other. Mother would otherwise be a very lonely woman because her only visitor is a minister of some other faith from a local church who is doing what ministers do; the heroine's parents however were free thinkers who raised an only daughter in this cozy little home.  The minister, when confronted by the existence of a pregnant daughter of a dying woman, says something unfortunate, which causes a scene when you consider someone as outspoken as Alice Munro.   So strike two for the conservative right.

Then we find ourselves in the era of communes and religious organizations, maybe not Moonies but how about Kathy Bates? when the heroine's daughter disappears into one of them and the K.B. personae refuses to cooperate with the deserted mother and furthermore gloats.   We find out later, much later, that the daughter just went off, married as did her mother, making her own life as her mother before her. I can just tell you the conservative right  representatives were tickled pink at how that all turned out. May not be the Rapture but it smacks of vengeance is mine saith the Lord.

Now that I've done the parallel bars here. I will start a different post on what I meant to post but my "machine" as I call the computer was acting up in the late morning.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on May 27, 2007, 04:52:08 PM
teddy174c
« Reply #261 on: May 26, 2007, 06:59:39 PM »
 
"Alice Munro seems a natural born story teller -- I imagine her endlessly prolific, with little agonizing or editing necessary, but who knows, perhaps this and other stories were painfully worked over before the final cut.  Her stories seem to flow, with, as you say, not a word out of place, or without purpose"
 
Teddy,
 
I guess that I'll have to take it back, as to her process. Leaving behind interviews  which were televised because they were connected to occasions when she received awards, I decided to poke around in the reviews which sometimes contain "interviews" by the reviewer; and, here, she expands on her method. I already knew that a great part of her style which you caught right away(  "little agonizing or editing necessary") was the result of not having time or a place in which to write while raising three children.
 
 never intended to be a short-story writer,'' says Alice Munro, leaning back and laughing in a chair in her publisher's office. ''I started writing them because I didn't have time to write anything else - I had three children. And then I got used to writing stories, so I saw my material that way, and now I don't think I'll ever write a novel.''

That was nineteen years ago.

''I don't really understand a novel,'' Ms. Munro says. ''I don't understand where the excitement is supposed to come in a novel, and I do in a story. There's a kind of tension that if I'm getting a story right I can feel right away, and I don't feel that when I try to write a novel. I kind of want a moment that's explosive, and I want everything gathered into that.''

Teddy, I would guess that is why I particularly liked the scene (in her story), it hit me with a sense of real satisfaction when I first encountered it, and on this second encounter, I feel that is what ties the story together, on the bottom of pg.12 of the printout (and continues at the top of pg.13) where Grant arrives home and picks up Marian's phone message(s).  That's the "explosive" where he recognizes her for who she is, according to his former infidelities.

I also had a stronger sense on first reading(although Munro's style was at the time a mystery to me, as it was to many others, and we were all groping for each other's assistance as we pursued her narrative blindly down this corridor feeling for clues) that then the senior care center departure, the tiniest of scenes, which clarifies the story, reveals Fiona's "intent".  That even if she had made a transition into a final phase of her life( I am thinking here of, how in India,the Brahmin belief, in the four stages of  our life as human beings takes place: we prepare, we household, we retire from our family responsibilities,and finally we let go and wander), at a deeper level she had released what she had earlier repressed.  Within Alzheimer's, her nature simply acted out what she might otherwise have done.  It indicates the different choice, made at a point in the past, which presently reveals itself as the difference between the characters of Fiona from Marian. I considered it an extremely revelatory moment, the explanation of her actions.  The psyche evens the score  and breaks through as the physical breaks down. One can take it either way as a reader, that it was "intentional" or, there is "No Mind at all", as the Zen masters argue.

Ps. I answered my own guess, anyway, since you have filled me in on what the movie adds to handle it as they see it, and I wrote this just above several hours before reading your account of film will be film. I have a very big feeling Munro would not be enamoured of all that "interest" displayed  by Lalaland's, oh, I forgot, isn't this a Canadian production?--prurient interest, but then they do have to flesh it out a bit because they don't know how to create "Action!" when faced with words. It never occurs to them to direct the scene as in theatre and have the actors actually say the words, considering how experienced someone like Julie Christie is at being able to convey emotions as subtle as mere words. Of course, in this story, they have to do something blatant with Marian because it is all in Grant's head within the story as Munro published it.  We get it, when we read it. The movie-goer is by now conditioned to  expect something less subtle than the life of the mind.

But the management of production companies are so cleverly ahead of the game when making the deal,the writer has no option after their literary agent previously made the deal with the publishers which included movie rights, along with paperback rights, and sometimes foreign printing or production rights in the case of tv.   I've often said that in most cases, with far less talented writers, the writer is glad of the money and is usually virtually "no comment" on what the movie did with their book

 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 27, 2007, 10:59:37 PM
Maddy,

Thank you for your most enjoyable and thought provoking post.  I should say, I would not normally be able to have this kind of conversation with anybody in the flesh, in my daily life -- including loved relatives.

"I can't believe the "conservative right" would be up in arms against her ..."  Teddy174c « Reply #264 on: Today at 11:40:08 AM »

The particular story of how Alice's heroine( who seems very deeply Alice in personality since she leaves a clue in something that she is reading which turns out to be a textbook from when she taught "Classics", kind of like our friend Theta from Ancient Literature and Myth but, this text throws a whole different light on the story because it was actually taught at Berkeley during the McCarthy era and addresses one of my favourite conundrums, Why did the Greeks at the height of their scientific realizations and investigations revert -- to superstition and mythos? The writer of that text says it was political.) deals with how she gets pregnant  after meeting a man who makes an impression on her as she does the Trans-Canadian railway stint on a lark --which, of course, is something Munro really did in life, moving from Ontario to Vancouver and then eventually back again because of stories that she wanted to write--but with a change of husbands in between.

That for openers on the beach in B.C. is the burning funereal pyre of her husband in the Greek manner with all their friends assembled.  She then goes through a series of flashbacks and you discover the daughter, born of her spontaneous idea of pregnancy and marriage, is the only person who hasn't been told that her father is dead. She's away.

Now if this isn't unconventional enough to disturb the Conservative right, there's the factor of Alice's heroine going home to live with her dying mother, during her own gestation period. Mother and daughter of those two generations, prior to the eventual daughter in the womb,  are taking care of each other. Mother would otherwise be a very lonely woman because her only visitor is a minister of some other faith from a local church who is doing what ministers do; the heroine's parents however were free thinkers who raised an only daughter in this cozy little home.  The minister, when confronted by the existence of a pregnant daughter of a dying woman, says something unfortunate, which causes a scene when you consider someone as outspoken as Alice Munro.   So strike two for the conservative right.

Then we find ourselves in the era of communes and religious organizations, maybe not Moonies but how about Kathy Bates? when the heroine's daughter disappears into one of them and the K.B. personae refuses to cooperate with the deserted mother and furthermore gloats.   We find out later, much later, that the daughter just went off, married as did her mother, making her own life as her mother before her. I can just tell you the conservative right  representatives were tickled pink at how that all turned out. May not be the Rapture but it smacks of vengeance is mine saith the Lord.

Now that I've done the parallel bars here. I will start a different post on what I meant to post but my "machine" as I call the computer was acting up in the late morning.

I read a Munro short story or two set in Victoria, which must have been about the time of what you are talking about above, but can't remember this one.  The first thing I read of Munro's was "The Lives of Girls and Women" - -I thought of it as a novel, but I guess was in fact a bunch of linked short stories set in small town Ontario.  Interestingly, my mother, raised in small town Princeton, BC, "identified" (as good readers are not supposed to do, according to Nab) with various characters in the story -- the fact is, perhaps the Canadianisms, the small town observations, the universally appealing truths, appealed to us both.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 27, 2007, 11:18:46 PM
Teddy,
 
I guess that I'll have to take it back, as to her process. Leaving behind interviews  which were televised because they were connected to occasions when she received awards, I decided to poke around in the reviews which sometimes contain "interviews" by the reviewer; and, here, she expands on her method. I already knew that a great part of her style which you caught right away(  "little agonizing or editing necessary") was the result of not having time or a place in which to write while raising three children.
 
 never intended to be a short-story writer,'' says Alice Munro, leaning back and laughing in a chair in her publisher's office. ''I started writing them because I didn't have time to write anything else - I had three children. And then I got used to writing stories, so I saw my material that way, and now I don't think I'll ever write a novel.''

That was nineteen years ago.

 


This makes me say again that I might have been mistaken to think of "The Lives of GIrls and Women" as a novel -- when Munro herself I expect considered it a series of linked short stories.

''I don't really understand a novel,'' Ms. Munro says. ''I don't understand where the excitement is supposed to come in a novel, and I do in a story. There's a kind of tension that if I'm getting a story right I can feel right away, and I don't feel that when I try to write a novel. I kind of want a moment that's explosive, and I want everything gathered into that.''

I also had a stronger sense on first reading(although Munro's style was at the time a mystery to me, as it was to many others, and we were all groping for each other's assistance as we pursued her narrative blindly down this corridor feeling for clues) that then the senior care center departure, the tiniest of scenes, which clarifies the story, reveals Fiona's "intent".  That even if she had made a transition into a final phase of her life( I am thinking here of, how in India,the Brahmin belief, in the four stages of  our life as human beings takes place: we prepare, we household, we retire from our family responsibilities,and finally we let go and wander), at a deeper level she had released what she had earlier repressed.  Within Alzheimer's, her nature simply acted out what she might otherwise have done.  It indicates the different choice, made at a point in the past, which presently reveals itself as the difference between the characters of Fiona from Marian. I considered it an extremely revelatory moment, the explanation of her actions.  The psyche evens the score  and breaks through as the physical breaks down. One can take it either way as a reader, that it was "intentional" or, there is "No Mind at all", as the Zen masters argue.


Very interesting.  I think you are talking about Fiona's decision to go to the care centre, to separate (in the movie, she actually sends a note to Grant via a care aid on the first day, when Grant persists in hanging around, that says "please go") from Grant -- vs. Marion's fresh and current - and perfectly understandable and human and valid when you think of it -- need to reach out to this available man and find intimacy, perhaps love.  By "released what she had earlier repressed" -- do you mean regarding the past infidelities?  Interesting -- it's what Grant suspects, and it's something that's still there, that's she's aware of, but I don't think that's the key.  When you talk about "within Alzheimer's", the essential self coming through, reminds me of what's referred to in geriatric assessments as the "pre-morbid personality" -- where the psychiatrist tries to identify via family members and friends, what the patient's personality was like before he became ill and began losing memory -- sometimes people become even more like how they already were (jerks, aggressive, kindly, etc) -- sometimes they switch to a very different persona.  I think you are speaking of repressed resentment over infidelities finally gently coming to the surface -- but I could be wrong.  Re:  "the psyche evening the score" and the Brahmin belief re last stage that we "finally let go and wander" -- this I think may be close to the Munro intent -- it's beautiful.  Maybe Fiona's decisions, when she had the clarity to make them, were something of a mixture, also keeping in consideration her nature -- her "ironic and vague" essence (this phrase rather more poignantly handled in the movie believe it or not, than in the story!).


Ps. I answered my own guess, anyway, since you have filled me in on what the movie adds to handle it as they see it, and I wrote this just above several hours before reading your account of film will be film. I have a very big feeling Munro would not be enamoured of all that "interest" displayed  by Lalaland's, oh, I forgot, isn't this a Canadian production?--prurient interest, but then they do have to flesh it out a bit because they don't know how to create "Action!" when faced with words. It never occurs to them to direct the scene as in theatre and have the actors actually say the words, considering how experienced someone like Julie Christie is at being able to convey emotions as subtle as mere words. Of course, in this story, they have to do something blatant with Marian because it is all in Grant's head within the story as Munro published it.  We get it, when we read it. The movie-goer is by now conditioned to  expect something less subtle than the life of the mind.

Yes this is Canadian actress/director, all of 28 years old, Sarah Polley (Of "Road to Avonlea' renown), who puts in the mouth of Fiona in the care centre something like -- "tired of the American crap/junk movies" -- or some such thing (not in story) -- so the "obligatory sex scene" -- is in fact hardly exploitative, or gratuitous or sexy.  Just interesting to note the ability of text to "elide" and suggest that such a think might be taking place -- but movies, somehow, can't or won't do this.  And perhaps they shouldn't -- it's an art turning a novel or story into a screenplay I guess, about which I'm ignorant.  I know VN went through some pains during the process of his Lolita being turned into a screenplay (I believe, by himself!)  It would be most interesting to take a short story like "The Bear Came Over the Mountain" and word for word, in exact narrative sequence, transliterate it over to a movie.


Cheers,
Teddy


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 28, 2007, 09:03:22 PM
Talk about killing a forum ... Enough of "TBCOTM"!

"Calculating God" was enjoyable -- speculation about godlike intelligence along with a charming first-contact storyline and some crazy fundamentalists thrown in.  One of his lighter novels.  And provokes a desire to visit the Royal Ontario Museum and finally see those Burgess shales.


The Burgess Shale!  My interest in possibly visiting this famous fossil site was sparked by reading Stephen J. Gould's "Wonderful Life" -- but then when I read about it, learned that 1.) you can't go alone to the site, but rather with a group led by a professional and 2.) you have to be extremely fit, as it's a rugged hike. 

3.) I wondered, would I even know what I was looking at or appreciate it?

Anyway - now curiosity sparked by this Sawyer book and if I can find it any time soon, I'll read it.


Title: Book burning
Post by: Dzimas on May 29, 2007, 04:46:06 AM
Once again it seems like it is the political and sports forums that generate the most discussions.  No wonder a Kansas City bookstore resorting to burning its vast stockpile of books, claiming they couldn't even give them away.  The owner, who was interviewed in BBC this morning said that they have over 35,000 books sitting in stacks that would fill most of a truck trailer, and that it simply become too much of a hassle to unload them bit by bit around the city, so he decided to have a funeral pyre, but the fire department sprayed water on their efforts since they hadn't gotten a permit first,

http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/13398967/detail.html


Title: Re: Book burning
Post by: teddy174c on May 29, 2007, 09:44:22 AM
Once again it seems like it is the political and sports forums that generate the most discussions.  No wonder a Kansas City bookstore resorting to burning its vast stockpile of books, claiming they couldn't even give them away.  The owner, who was interviewed in BBC this morning said that they have over 35,000 books sitting in stacks that would fill most of a truck trailer, and that it simply become too much of a hassle to unload them bit by bit around the city, so he decided to have a funeral pyre, but the fire department sprayed water on their efforts since they hadn't gotten a permit first,

http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/13398967/detail.html


Dzimas -- glad to see at least a few people decided to snap up some books before they hit the flames.  Good story.

(In the meantime, where is it again in the South that a museum has been built to show/"prove" the "scientific truth - word for word" of the Bible -- from Adam and Eve, to Noah's Ark etc?)

There are a lot more people, especially young people, plugged in to Ipods on my commute than reading.  Which isn't to say they don't read at home or school -- just that things digital now take up a lot more time and space, thanks to great advertising, I suppose great sound, etc.



Title: Creation Museum
Post by: Dzimas on May 29, 2007, 10:20:09 AM
Is this the one you were thinking of:

http://www.creationmuseum.org/

I imagine it had a pretty good turnout on Memorial Day, assuming it opened on time.  At 60,000 square feet, it seems they have a pretty big story to tell.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on May 29, 2007, 10:21:21 AM
Teddy,

I would be surprised if the saying "curling up with a good book" survives the next generation. It may be that kids will curl up with their Ipods or other electronic instruments, but the desire to read a paper book that is stored on a shelf, is diminishing more each year. The odd correlary is that more and more people are writing now than in the past, new books come out much more often than in my childhood. Perhaps it started with the revolution of the ninteen-sixties, that people decided to express themselves rather than just be told how to feel.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on May 29, 2007, 11:04:08 AM
Ted, it's my understanding, if Sawyer's descriptions of the R.O.M. are accurate, that one can see a good representation of the Burgess Shale specimens in the R.O.M. and save one's legs.  In the book, there is a subplot where fundies are plotting to blow up the BS specimens.

Oh unfortunate acronym there.





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on May 29, 2007, 01:59:05 PM
Barton,

I hate acronyms, expecially when used excessively. Conventional wisdom is to write out an acronym once, then use the acronym in the rest of the piece. It is reader-unfriendly to use acronyms which can be mistaken for other acronyms. BS has a traditional meaning - its hard to use it for other purposes.

In short,  I have no idea what you wrote in your last post, so am relieved it wasn't addressed to me.


Title: Re: Creation Museum
Post by: teddy174c on May 29, 2007, 10:09:58 PM
Is this the one you were thinking of:

http://www.creationmuseum.org/

I imagine it had a pretty good turnout on Memorial Day, assuming it opened on time.  At 60,000 square feet, it seems they have a pretty big story to tell.

That's the one, Dzimas, -- thanks!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 29, 2007, 10:17:14 PM
Teddy,

I would be surprised if the saying "curling up with a good book" survives the next generation. It may be that kids will curl up with their Ipods or other electronic instruments, but the desire to read a paper book that is stored on a shelf, is diminishing more each year. The odd correlary is that more and more people are writing now than in the past, new books come out much more often than in my childhood. Perhaps it started with the revolution of the ninteen-sixties, that people decided to express themselves rather than just be told how to feel.



Weezo -- as soon as I saw your phrase "curling up" I couldn't help but think of the folks I see on my commute and elsewhere, wired in to their Ipods, hunched over laptops and/or squinting down at various wondrous tiny tech devices -- one might almost say they were "curling up" over these devices.  Now, I'm not one to talk I guess, being curled up here in a way in front of this screen -- my main tech addiction.  After reading your post, I boarded a bus at 7:04 ish this AM.  A young lady, wired into Ipod, clutching Starbuck's coffee in one hand and I guess cell, or game device in the other walked down the aisle as the bus driver kept shouting "Miss, miss..." trying to clarify something to do with her ticket/payment.  The girl did not hear, oblivious, until about the fourth shout.  I'm sounding like an old fogie, because the last time I was wired in to music was about 15 years ago with a Sony Walkman listening to Bruce Cockburn tapes -- yes, in those days little tapes -- as I jogged down to the Seabus.

The ads for Ipods are pretty brilliant -- young, slender silouettes gyrate and boogie insanely to the music.  Usually it's sex that sells.  Really, I think, these ads are catering to people's need for sex, being attractive etc.  Yet, when people are actually plugged into these devices in real life, they are blocked off -- you can imagine someone screaming for help, and them not turning around.  Anyway, the desire to connect probably lures them to the device, yet the device cuts them off.   Anyway, I'm open to argument over this.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 29, 2007, 10:21:38 PM
Ted, it's my understanding, if Sawyer's descriptions of the R.O.M. are accurate, that one can see a good representation of the Burgess Shale specimens in the R.O.M. and save one's legs.  In the book, there is a subplot where fundies are plotting to blow up the BS specimens.

Oh unfortunate acronym there.


Barton -- I thought the major collection was in the New York Natural Museum of History - but good to know some of the fossils remain in Canada.  I went to my local library last night because after an on-line search of their catalogue would appear the book in question was "in".  A check of the computer in the library, confirmed such.  So I checked the carousel of Sci Fi books and found several by Sawyer, (sci fi tales of androids, Humans, Hominids, etc) but not that one, despite it apparently being in.  The reference desk librarian advised it in fact should be there according to "status' but that sometimes they went - ahem - "missing", that she would put on hold for me, and that I should "keep on them" regarding the book.  I returned home, and found Graham Greene's THE MAN WITHIN, and put it on my bedside table, possibly to start after I devour the entire latest New Yorker. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 29, 2007, 10:28:09 PM
Barton and Weezo -- Re the "BS" acronym -- I was actually going to use - but decided against for obvious reasons (though Gould probably would have thought it appropriate in referring to Charles Doolittle Walcott's interpretations, and subsequent scientists whose names ellude me might have thought it appropriate referring to Gould's) ..


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 29, 2007, 10:30:15 PM
Which makes me realize, I still haven't read Gould's "I Have Landed".


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 29, 2007, 11:17:36 PM
Teddy,did you ever read John McPhee's "Coming into the Country" about Alaska and given your fondness for The New Yorker have you ever picked up Joesph Mitchell's great book on old offbeat New York"Up in the Old Hotel"I would think maybe the library would have them or a used book search on ABE if you don't want to pay full price.Mithcell's book is either 724 or 794 pages or something between.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 30, 2007, 12:10:15 AM
Bo -- I've never read either, but both sound extremely appealing.

(It's true, I'm a great admirer of the New Yorker and treasures that lie within.)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on May 30, 2007, 12:17:40 AM
Teddy,did you ever read John McPhee's "Coming into the Country" about Alaska and given your fondness for The New Yorker have you ever picked up Joesph Mitchell's great book on old offbeat New York"Up in the Old Hotel"I would think maybe the library would have them or a used book search on ABE if you don't want to pay full price.Mithcell's book is either 724 or 794 pages or something between.

A search for John McPhee in my library's catalogue brings up two titles "Annals of the Former World" and "Uncommon Carriers".

A search for Joseph Mitchell brings up "check your spelling" -- a search for "Up in the old Hotel" brings up nothing but surrounding titles.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on May 30, 2007, 01:11:38 AM
Teddy,I sent you the Amazon links for both books so you can see what they are about.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on May 30, 2007, 04:37:11 PM
“The New Media, which is a fusion of Talk Radio and Internet Websites…”

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2217


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on May 31, 2007, 04:22:05 PM
“Internet based organizations such as ALIPAC, NumbersUSA, FAIR, MCDC, American Patrol, and many other organizations and Bloggers collect and distribute articles, videos, and podcasts, often blocked by the Associated press from wide distribution. Many of these organizations have e-mail support lists that reach allied media and citizen activists.”

"The old media censorship, bias, and blackouts on illegal immigration issues have created an information black market for us," says William Gheen. "Their failure to provide the public with accurate and balanced information about this crisis has created a lot of growth for what we do."

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2217

Oh, I get it now. That’s why there was a purge. Not just natsec—but all the other forums too.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 01, 2007, 12:12:12 AM
Teddy,when I was looking at the new Bernd Heinrich on Amazon last week they put up that if you like this book you'll like this.The book that caught my eye was"Where Bigfoot Walks" by Robert Michael Pyle.I got my copy from ABE today and after twenty pages I'm hooked.The book though is not just about Bigfoot.As the readers at Amazon who did not like it all said they expected a book about bigfoot only but everyone of them said if you want a well written lyrical book on nature it was wonderful.He talks about the myth of Giants around the world but a lot of it deals with mans impact on the natural world.He deals with the Indian Legends and the nut cases but mostly it is about trekking through one area of the Cascades.The author happens to be a lepidopterist of renown in the Northwest and did the book"Nabokov's Butterflies" with V.V. Nabokov and your friend Brian Boyd. I typed in the title to ABE and #24 listing is at a bookstore in Vancouver.Shawn Mooney Books.  P.S. The hardcover I bought is from 1995 when it was written.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 01, 2007, 08:22:29 AM
Teddy,when I was looking at the new Bernd Heinrich on Amazon last week they put up that if you like this book you'll like this.The book that caught my eye was"Where Bigfoot Walks" by Robert Michael Pyle.I got my copy from ABE today and after twenty pages I'm hooked.The book though is not just about Bigfoot.As the readers at Amazon who did not like it all said they expected a book about bigfoot only but everyone of them said if you want a well written lyrical book on nature it was wonderful.He talks about the myth of Giants around the world but a lot of it deals with mans impact on the natural world.He deals with the Indian Legends and the nut cases but mostly it is about trekking through one area of the Cascades.The author happens to be a lepidopterist of renown in the Northwest and did the book"Nabokov's Butterflies" with V.V. Nabokov and your friend Brian Boyd. I typed in the title to ABE and #24 listing is at a bookstore in Vancouver.Shawn Mooney Books.  P.S. The hardcover I bought is from 1995 when it was written.

Thanks kindly for this, Bo -- I thought the name Robert Michael Pyle rang a bell!  (I was discouraged up at my own library the other evening to find no titles at all by Bernd Heinrich, but that's par for the course)  A check of the inner flap of Nabokov's Butterflies indicates Pyle's other books:  "Wintergreen", "The Thunder Tree", "Chasing Monarchs: Migrating with the Butterflies of Passage".   

 I do like the sound of "Where Bigfoot Walks" (along with the latest Heinrich title you gave me and I couldn't find which I now forget)it very much and it will give me another pleasant goal to meander over to Shawn Mooney Books which a google search indicates is on Pendrell Street -- .



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: thekid on June 02, 2007, 07:55:08 AM
On Joseph Mitchell FWIW:

Up in the Old Hotel is the kind of book you can dip into at any old place and almost immediately become enthralled.  I believe it contains Joe Gould's Secret, which was also published seperately in the Modern LIbrary a few years ago.  Joseph Mitchell is a character in Jay McInerney's novel, Bright Lights, Big City


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on June 02, 2007, 04:04:55 PM
The Second Purge

“Where he merely suffered conventional first-night nerves, she experienced a visceral dread, a helpless disgust as palpable as seasickness.”—Ian McEwan

Ah yes, another one of those tacky ominous msussman memos in garish scarlet at the top of the NYTimes readers group page:

“Forums are undergoing maintenance and will back be in service Sunday evening.”—msussman

http://forums.nytimes.com/top/opinion/readersopinions/forums/books/index.html

“Maintenance”—such an innocent word.

Sort of like the ugly little “Rotor-Rooter Man” coming for one last visit.

Thus the “Second Purge” of readers, writers and intellectuals comes to its somewhat predictable “Einsatzkommando” end…along with its gassed Forum community and Readers Group.

“Time to put you out of your misery,” as msussman said.

How appropriate that our last book discussion was Lover of Unreason—a biography about Ted Hughes’s lover and David Wevill’s wife. Assia Wevill who ended up like Sylvia Plath—with her head stuck in the “oven.”   

May I wish msussman tanenhaus and company all the best with their nice little podcast interviews and nice little blogs and busy little journalistic entrepreneurship.

Even though the “book business” is doomed anyway…

Along with the “newspaper racket” as well…

Riding the blogosphere is like riding the tiger across the river…









Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 02, 2007, 08:19:36 PM
"The Forums are undergoing maintenance .." message brings back memories -- fondish now, though at the time we weren't amused -- of the endless upgrades the forums underwent.  Usually things got worse afterwards, though occasionally we learned to live with the changes and sometimes even to prefer them (such as the  -- what was the word we used at the time, for the "dancing .. moving" fora -- listed in order as used, etc).  When they took away the "delete" and "edit" function -- that seemed the end .. though somehow we adapted.  Mick was, and is, in my opinion, the perfect host, diplomatic, patient, kind, though often seeming to have to do the bidding of NYT suits -- as I'm sure is the case in the recent sea change to "blogs" and elimination of 99% of the forums. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on June 02, 2007, 10:03:06 PM
Whiskeypriest was right, my dear Teddy. You’re the epitome of tact, suavity and sophistication. I’m always impressed by how mature people are up there in Victoria and Vancouver whenever I visit from down here in Seattle. A trip on the Princess Marguerite used to be the highpoint of summer vacations for me—and I have many fond memories from back then. I guess the light-rail system and the Olympics will be next—but I’ll always have a book in my lap wherever I go.








Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 02, 2007, 11:19:11 PM
Whiskeypriest was right, my dear Teddy. You’re the epitome of tact, suavity and sophistication. I’m always impressed by how mature people are up there in Victoria and Vancouver whenever I visit from down here in Seattle. A trip on the Princess Marguerite used to be the highpoint of summer vacations for me—and I have many fond memories from back then. I guess the light-rail system and the Olympics will be next—but I’ll always have a book in my lap wherever I go.



(Whiskeypriest said that ?!..)

Pugetopolis -- the Olympics, let's hope for them.  The anti-poverty league is up in arms against them, invading and trashing public offices, calling for housing for the poor before the Olympics (valid point, but their methods are vile); many people here, including yours truly, look somewhat cynically upon them -- but I guess when the time comes, we'll all hope things go smoothly.  In the meantime, massive contruction projects are taking place around the city, including the RAV line connecting downtown Vancouver to the Airport in time for 2010, (many businesses along the construction corridor dying a not so slow death).  The Princess Marguerite -- I had to look that up -- seems replaced by another ferry. I believe that service went into retirement in the 80's.  Never had a chance to take it.

The Governator was in town the past couple of days, promoting mutual/coordinated environmental strategies.  Given the star treatment.

Decades ago went to Seattle with a friend -- and was there introduced to the bagel..

Many Canadians flood South regularly for better shopping deals, more variety, and beauty of Washington and Oregon natural topography, camping spots, tulip edens, etc.





Title: Re: Meander... So This Is Where You All ARE!!!
Post by: snyggokul on June 02, 2007, 11:44:16 PM
Ha !  :D Finally found you guys !

 :-[ Well, NOT that I often posted or anything, but I DID lurk a lot AND READ your more-often-than-not wonderful posts !!!

Man... WHAT is going on at NYT Book Forums ???  ::)


I'm still trying to find my way around here , so if I make mistakes, pls forgive me... But Xscape from Elba looks GREAT


Title: Re: Meander... So This Is Where You All ARE!!!
Post by: teddy174c on June 02, 2007, 11:49:20 PM
Ha !  :D Finally found you guys !

 :-[ Well, NOT that I often posted or anything, but I DID lurk a lot AND READ your more-often-than-not wonderful posts !!!

Man... WHAT is going on at NYT Book Forums ???  ::)


I'm still trying to find my way around here , so if I make mistakes, pls forgive me... But Xscape from Elba looks GREAT

Sny -- what was your former name on the NYT? 

Liquidsilver is to thank for recreating all the NYT forums. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: snyggokul on June 03, 2007, 12:04:37 AM
Oh, exactly the same : You won't remember me cuz I hardly ever posted there ,  but I DID read many of the wonderful posts .

Liquidsilver's job, huh ? He should be canonized !!!   ;) Heh...

The basic reason why I hardly ever post is lack of time, but I'm trying -- (o.0) harder this time -- to change this and I am soooooooooooooo happy to see you guys together here.

Let me use this quotation to summarize my point :

"Great minds discuss ideas,
average minds discuss events,
small minds discuss people."  
-- Hyman G. Rickover, admiral, US Navy  


Title: What Have U Guys Been Reading ?
Post by: snyggokul on June 03, 2007, 12:25:10 AM
But... Tell me, tell me : What Have U Guys Been Reading ?

In the middle of a sleepless night this past week I found in my very chaotic library a book I've had forever and simply gobbled it up : The Family by Mario Puzo, 1st published in the 1970s , I think ... Cesar Borgia and his incestuous love for his sister with the connivance of their father Rodrigo Borgia OR Pope Alexander VI .... I find myself fonder and fonder of historical novels these days...

Then I also read a short novel by Guy de Maupassant, called in Portuguese A Inconstante ( which in English would mean "inconstant" or "fickle"; any ideas ? ) , but I simply could NOT what it is originally called, since the stupid book was a cheap edition that never brought this information...  ::) ...


Title: A Journey to the Western Islands of Scotland
Post by: Dzimas on June 03, 2007, 02:24:19 AM
I've started in on Johnson and Boswell's Journey to the Western Islands of Scotland in anticipation of a trip later this summer.  Unfortunately, it gets off to a rather depressing start as Johnson doesn't have much positive to say about the Lowlands.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on June 03, 2007, 08:38:08 AM
I have just raced through reading the Poisonwood Bible, the first novel I have read in many moons, since I tend to read more pragmatic books, mostly history in recent years. I am so overwhelmed by the power of the story in the book, and for perhaps that first time, really getting into how the author crafted the story. She moves from subchapter through subchapter, exposing the tale through the eyes of each of the main characters, moving the prose from lyrical for one character, childish for another, and pragmatic for another. She brings the soul of Africa up into the light. There are parallels to the history reading I've done on Native Americans, as she describes the tribal system of existance where material goods do not take center stage, and sharing is the way of life. It is a book I will return to often, to digest the flow of words used to make vivid images of characters and place.



Title: Re: A Journey to the Western Islands of Scotland
Post by: teddy174c on June 03, 2007, 09:35:19 AM
I've started in on Johnson and Boswell's Journey to the Western Islands of Scotland in anticipation of a trip later this summer.  Unfortunately, it gets off to a rather depressing start as Johnson doesn't have much positive to say about the Lowlands.

Dzimas, which reminds me -- I've got that book too still to be read.  Rick Steeves, in his travel book "Europe through the back Door" has a small section on "the worst" that is admittedly subjective, but he warns people against.  Re the British Isles:

"Let's start with the dullest corner of the British Isles, south Scotland.  It's so boring the Romans decided to block it off with Hadrian's Wall.  Hadrian's Wall, near the town of Haltwhistle, is far more intriguing than the area it.  Like Venice's St. Mark's Square at midnight and Napoleon's tomb in Paris, this sight covers history buffs with goose bumps.  London, York, Bath, and Edinburgh are the most interesting cities in Britain.  Belfast, Liverpool and Glasgow are quirky enough to be called interesting.  Oxford pales next to Cambrige, and Stratford-upon-Avon is little more than Shakespeare's house -- and that's as dead as he is.  The west coast of Ireland (the Dingle Peninsula), Snowdonia National Park, and the Windermere Lakes District are the most beautiful natural regions of Great Britain and Ireland.  The York Moors disappoint most creatures great and small."   Steeves jokes "these are just my personal feelings after more than 100 months of European travel.  And if you disagree with any of them, you obviously haven't been there".


Title: Re: What Have U Guys Been Reading ?
Post by: teddy174c on June 03, 2007, 09:46:04 AM
But... Tell me, tell me : What Have U Guys Been Reading ?

"The Biographer's Moustache" for a late dose of Kingsley Amis and short story "the Bear came over the Mountain" by Alice Munro.

There's a large array to choose from right in my dwelling place here including the above mentioned Boswell, plus new ones to look out for recommended by forum friends, such as nature writer Heinrich's latest and Pyle's "I Walked with Bigfoot" plus a couple of others, John McPhee's "Coming into the Country" and Joseph Mitchell's great book "Up in the Old Hotel". 

Right here I've got "I have Landed" by late writer Stephen J. Gould, "The Man Within" by Graham Greene and "The Dillard Reader" (collection of Annie Dillard's writings). 

There's a Chilean writer whose last book was reviewed in the New Yorker a few months ago and thought I should leap forward into Found it -- Roberto Bolano -- last work "The Savage Detectives" --


Title: Re: How it's done
Post by: Furphy on June 03, 2007, 09:56:04 AM
This is not really a reply but I can't for the life of me see how you simply post a new post.

I have discovered a magic way to make reading Proust as easy as pie.

If you will but spend three to five years reading late period Henry James before picking up In Search of Lost Time you will experience no difficulty at all in reading MP's long and winding sentences.

If everything is relative...except that dictum....then this is the way to go.


Title: Re: A Journey to the Western Islands of Scotland
Post by: Furphy on June 03, 2007, 10:48:45 AM
I've started in on Johnson and Boswell's Journey to the Western Islands of Scotland in anticipation of a trip later this summer.  Unfortunately, it gets off to a rather depressing start as Johnson doesn't have much positive to say about the Lowlands.


I think you'll get more of a tour around Samuel Johnson's psyche than you'll get around Scotland.

And of course things will have changed a bit in the last 200+ years.


Title: Scotland without a map
Post by: Dzimas on June 03, 2007, 11:11:13 AM
Teddy, I take anything Rick Steeves says with a grain of salt.  I tend to favor the Knopf and DK guides, and the Knopf guide to Scotland sure is beautiful.  We'll probably put the Isle of Skye on our itinerary, simply because it is the most accessible.  We will be splitting our time between Edinburgh and Inverness, and Skye is a day trip from Inverness.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on June 03, 2007, 11:13:04 AM
As you say, furphy, I'm reading Johnson more for Johnson than I am Scotland.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 03, 2007, 11:24:48 AM
Dzimas -- good point by Furphy.  I've got a lonely planet guide to Great Britain and huge Scotland section includes descriptions of both Skye and Inverness -- re the former "An ethereal light squeezes through the clouds and bathes the rugged splendour that reaches sublime levels with the striking Cuillin Hills that thrust skywards in the south" and Inverness -- "When you arrive in town, throw the luggage down on the bed and head straight down to the river for a stroll; ... the places you find are invariably friendly, and make you realise why this is considered one of Britain's best cities for quality of life .."  Gives cheap, medium and high end lodging information.  I think I'm a frustrated armchair traveler -- hence this accumulation of travel books (though good to know re Knopf -- I expect yours are the best -- my brother-in-law doesn't like Steeves either).

I expect you will have a wonderful adventure and as an architect revel in the ancient structures. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Furphy on June 03, 2007, 11:39:27 AM
Talk about a disappointed traveler! My guidebook promised me that everything in the Maison Rose in Montmartre is pink, even the cutlery. Well the outside walls of this restaurant are pink enough in all good conscience but nothing else in the place is rosy. I was halfway through my bowl of onion soup when I realized that I had been had.

There is no place on earth I am more likely to get lost than in Montmartre and I had spent at least an hour finding the restaurant from the Metro stop several blocks away.

My pilgrimage would have been in vain if not for the really good spaghetti I ate chez Rose.




Dzimas -- good point by Furphy.  I've got a lonely planet guide to Great Britain and huge Scotland section includes descriptions of both Skye and Inverness -- re the former "An ethereal light squeezes through the clouds and bathes the rugged splendour that reaches sublime levels with the striking Cuillin Hills that thrust skywards in the south" and Inverness -- "When you arrive in town, throw the luggage down on the bed and head straight down to the river for a stroll; ... the places you find are invariably friendly, and make you realise why this is considered one of Britain's best cities for quality of life .."  Gives cheap, medium and high end lodging information.  I think I'm a frustrated armchair traveler -- hence this accumulation of travel books (though good to know re Knopf -- I expect yours are the best -- my brother-in-law doesn't like Steeves either).

I expect you will have a wonderful adventure and as an architect revel in the ancient structures. 


Title: Re: How it's done
Post by: Lhoffman on June 03, 2007, 12:01:12 PM
This is not really a reply but I can't for the life of me see how you simply post a new post.

I have discovered a magic way to make reading Proust as easy as pie.

If you will but spend three to five years reading late period Henry James before picking up In Search of Lost Time you will experience no difficulty at all in reading MP's long and winding sentences.

If everything is relative...except that dictum....then this is the way to go.

LOL  LOL  LOL  LOL  LOL  LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 03, 2007, 12:03:10 PM
Dzimas....Scotland is wonderful!  But, prepare for any weather.  We visited Edinborough Castle on the first day of summer last year.  It snowed. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: kitinkaboodle on June 03, 2007, 01:03:41 PM
And, if I may jump in here, pubs have very definite hours of operation (unlike Ireland).  Sunday mornings can be a bit tricky for breakfast as well, unless you're going the B & B "route".
Have a few wonderful recommendations for some fine, small hotels if interested.
And, the golf is fantastic anywhere there! 


Title: Scotland
Post by: Dzimas on June 03, 2007, 01:27:49 PM
Thanks, kit, but have already booked accomodations.  Found a two-bedroom apartment in Edinburgh through the Internet and a B&B in Inverness called the Moyness House.  Very friendly owners in the e-mail exchanges.  Would love to play golf while I'm there but not possible with the family.  Still, would like to see Royal St. Andrews.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 03, 2007, 04:34:06 PM
Dzimas,

If you happen to discover where the heck Auchtermukdee is, let me know?


Title: Re: How it's done
Post by: madupont on June 03, 2007, 04:42:18 PM
This is not really a reply but I can't for the life of me see how you simply post a new post.

I have discovered a magic way to make reading Proust as easy as pie.

If you will but spend three to five years reading late period Henry James before picking up In Search of Lost Time you will experience no difficulty at all in reading MP's long and winding sentences.

If everything is relative...except that dictum....then this is the way to go.

LOL  LOL  LOL  LOL  LOL  LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


All too true.  As I meant to tell  nytempsperdu( on finding a complete set of A la recherche du temps perdu ) when discussing Kennett Square, I began to read and realized that you must have the complete set of volumes in order to read back and forth from volume to volume.  If you don't know the people that he is talking about in several Norman families, what's the point?  It's beautiful clever gossip with a droll sense of humour.


Title: Re: How it's done
Post by: Furphy on June 03, 2007, 06:23:36 PM
Although Marcel does spend time with his grandmother at Balbec on the Normandy coast, we don't know that his family has its roots in that region. We are given the impression that Marcel is sent there for the sake of his health and nerves.

Combray (Illiers) is much closer to Paris, near Chartres in fact, and that seems to be his mother's home town. As it is the area where both the Guermantes and Swann have their country homes. So I shouldn't think the designation of Norman families is quite correct.


This is not really a reply but I can't for the life of me see how you simply post a new post.

I have discovered a magic way to make reading Proust as easy as pie.

If you will but spend three to five years reading late period Henry James before picking up In Search of Lost Time you will experience no difficulty at all in reading MP's long and winding sentences.

If everything is relative...except that dictum....then this is the way to go.

LOL  LOL  LOL  LOL  LOL  LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


All too true.  As I meant to tell  nytempsperdu( on finding a complete set of A la recherche du temps perdu ) when discussing Kennett Square, I began to read and realized that you must have the complete set of volumes in order to read back and forth from volume to volume.  If you don't know the people that he is talking about in several Norman families, what's the point?  It's beautiful clever gossip with a droll sense of humour.


Title: Re: How it's done
Post by: teddy174c on June 03, 2007, 07:45:58 PM
Although Marcel does spend time with his grandmother at Balbec on the Normandy coast, we don't know that his family has its roots in that region. We are given the impression that Marcel is sent there for the sake of his health and nerves.

Combray (Illiers) is much closer to Paris, near Chartres in fact, and that seems to be his mother's home town. As it is the area where both the Guermantes and Swann have their country homes. So I shouldn't think the designation of Norman families is quite correct.

"near Chartres" -- now that has a nice ring to it..

Furphy, I have yet to read the famous Proust work -- I believe it consists of nine volumes.  Anthony Lane in his article in the New Yorker recently on "The Tintin Century" noted how when as a child and he was ill, he got to stay home and read the enchanting comic books about the boy reporter hero -- "illness has its compensations".  I seem to remember him saying Henry James said the same thing -- but maybe I'm thinking of Goliard, who I recall loves James as do you, and his similar comments about the pleasantness of illness -- and come to think of it, Nabokov said exactly the same thing, too, about his childhood pleasure in illness and fever.  The rich adventures taken bedridden were infinitely more exciting than what was likely to be had at school.  Now Proust was bedridden a fair bit was he not?  I wonder if this aided his artistry in allowing his memory to meander at length and at will, in that peculiarly pleasant state, and gather up details to later be committed to paper and history?

I read just one or two James' stories and for me it was  a bit like trying to wade through quicksand (though admittedly have never actually tried that).

More details of your Paris trip would be most enjoyed! (Especially re food, sights, people, aromas, etc..)


Title: Re: My trip
Post by: Furphy on June 03, 2007, 10:42:52 PM
I'm not a conventional tourist. I'd rather eat an ice cream on the Ile St. Louis than go to see the sights on the Ile de la Cite.

Sometimes I do things a little backwards. I went to sit in the Place Dauphine on my first evening in Paris. It wasn't until Wednesday of that week that I picked up a copy of Anatole France's The Gods Will Have Blood and found that the protagonist of the book was living in the very same Place Dauphine during the French Revolution.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Furphy on June 03, 2007, 10:45:42 PM
And I see, Ted, that you have twigged me.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 03, 2007, 11:43:45 PM
 Re: How it's done
« Reply #318 on: Today at 07:45:58 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Furphy on Today at 06:23:36 PM
Although Marcel does spend time with his grandmother at Balbec on the Normandy coast, we don't know that his family has its roots in that region. We are given the impression that Marcel is sent there for the sake of his health and nerves.

Combray (Illiers) is much closer to Paris, near Chartres in fact, and that seems to be his mother's home town. As it is the area where both the Guermantes and Swann have their country homes. So I shouldn't think the designation of Norman families is quite correct.

"near Chartres" -- now that has a nice ring to it..

Teddy and Furphy,

If we assume of course that grandmother's Balbec is the Bolbec on the route from Le Havre to Yvetot, then we're getting somewhere. This is an area familiar from Guy de Maupassant. Many of the short stories of GdM are set in this region.

Do either of you recall whether Proust goes on to mention Les Andelys and Louviers  in his memories.(oh, right,Teddy is out on that score). I seem to remember that being the case, although I know of those places from other family sources, collected correspondence.

I had a friend who lived on Ile St. Louis, convenient to her father's profession on the adjoining Ile de la Cite, they left their apartment for Nice because of the Occupation of Paris and then went on to Algiers.

Now, you have got me curious to find the title of the Anatole France  that teddy has so nicely described,"more exciting than what was likely to be had at school."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 04, 2007, 12:19:53 AM
And I see, Ted, that you have twigged me.

Took me awhile!

Funny you should mention ice-cream.  I was in Paris for all of 2-3 days when I was ten years old -- and what I remember most clearly was the delicious hard scoop of ice-cream I enjoyed there -- the flavour of which I've forgotten.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 04, 2007, 12:28:38 AM

Now, you have got me curious to find the title of the Anatole France  that teddy has so nicely described,"more exciting than what was likely to be had at school."


Madupont,

I wonder if you are in fact thinking of Georges Prosper Remi, aka "Herge", who wrote and illustrated the Tintin (and Snowy) comic books.  I remember throughout my childhood and life I guess, catching glimpses of them here and there, but never delving into -- perhaps where I was, they weren't in English (they've been translated into many languages).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herg%C3%A9  (Did Anatole France write the "The Little Prince" story?)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 04, 2007, 12:33:08 AM
And that would have been(the correct title): Revolt of the Angels, from Anatole France (his pen-name).  I know how that happened, I probably intended to read his, Island of the Penguins, and possibly did but it was not immediately available so I read what was. Penguins were not nearly as interesting following the more risque Angels. I never went back, having graduated from Maupassant to Anatole France by age 10 or 11; no more Penguins (that was the result of Mr. Popper's Penguins,anyway).

I did find myself going back to Guy de Maupassant by the time that I began high-school (by which time, I went forward to Emile Zola).

Of course, one could more simply approach Proust as the Understanding of Consciousness, and forget from whom he learned such things as he had become conscious of as he looks back, and remembers who taught him what.

Incidentally,Wim Wenders borrowed Anatole France's idea about angels for his eventual film with Bruno Ganz as the angel.  Somebody else also took a hint of how to turn the idea into Barbarella.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 04, 2007, 12:34:31 AM
Make that Antoine de Saint -- Exupery ..!

That's interesting.  As I began to post this post to correct my error above (rather than modify previous post) re author of The Little Prince, a red warning came up, saying "while you were trying to post this another post was posted, do you want to review your previous post first?" or something like that.  Went ahead and posted this (before this other correction) and found Madupont you'd posted.




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 04, 2007, 12:38:32 AM


I wonder if you are in fact thinking of Georges Prosper Remi, aka "Herge", who wrote and illustrated the Tintin (and Snowy) comic books.  I remember throughout my childhood and life I guess, catching glimpses of them here and there, but never delving into -- perhaps where I was, they weren't in English (they've been translated into many languages).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herg%C3%A9  (Did Anatole France write the "The Little Prince" story?)

[/quote]

No, in both cases.  But St. Exupery would be correct.    Never heard of the comic books. I was more interested in Prosper Merimee(sic), the librettist.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 04, 2007, 12:42:09 AM
Sorry Madupont -- I misread this, not seeing the gap between two key words .. "France" and "that"

"Now, you have got me curious to find the title of the Anatole France  that teddy has so nicely described,"more exciting than what was likely to be had at school."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 04, 2007, 01:31:02 AM
I've had those red-letter days too. Often a post just disappears. 

Furphy's,"Combray (Illiers) is much closer to Paris, near Chartres in fact, and that seems to be his mother's home..." is a bit of a leg-pull.

The actual Illiers-Combray in gratitude to Proust has officially taken the name that he gave to their commune in the Department Eure et Loir. He quite often invented fictious names for places so as not to closely identify the real life(real live)characters he describes in his remembrances.

Now there are two trains of thought to follow here, as he so often is taking one to a destination. 1) It is not at all odd for the characters to be living in some place as "furphy" describes, if this was to bring them closer to Paris, which was the center of their world in present time and in fact during past time, even if the home of their family was in Normandy where Proust has invented places like "Bric-a-bec" and "Cric-a-bec" in the style of the old northern language of the region.

But, 2) in actuality, when he goes to visit his uncle, it is in Auteuil.  (That's the current scholarship.) It is in the 16th.arrondisement, with the Bois de Boulogne,etc. I take it this uncle was his mother's brother,or as furphy tells us,"and that seems to be his mother's home.

I'm going to have that ice-cream cone and go to bed!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 04, 2007, 03:21:22 AM
Teddy interesting that you should mention  Roberto Bolano.In the NYTimes sunday book review which is the Summer Reading Issue a survey was done of what authors are reading and  a Nicole Krauss mentions Bolano and his book"A Night in Chile" and then she says four more of his novels have been published here.Another writer Elizabeth Gilbert mentions she has just moved to New Jersey and so reread two favorite books about the state"The Pine Barrens" by John McPhee which I read and loved years ago and"The Meadowlands" by Robert Sullivan which I have not heard of.That said I have to email Arthur(Goliard)  again and tell him about this site.Hre has become a recluse in the last year.In the same book review Joe Queenan has a a dry funny essay about the summer highschool reading list for American Students and it really hasn't changed much since I was in High School 30 plus years ago.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 04, 2007, 10:11:36 AM
Joe Queenan

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/books/review/Queenan-t.html?em&ex=1181102400&en=9f71e92b4104e826&ei=5087%0A


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 04, 2007, 01:18:41 PM
Summer Bummer

Lhoffman,

No one ever made us read anything over the summer when I was in high-school! Nor, during the school-year for that matter. At a college-prep school, they just trusted us to do "extra-curricular reading" and then we would do reports,written or oral (possibly for annoying the teachers? I knew that my Spanish teacher hated my insights on Spanish theatre, so that, I have been forever turned off, with one exception. And Adalbert Reisz always caught me out, if I was stretching my comprehensive ability applied to history.  But, since we had a library where we were taught library-science so that we could use the library during study hall periods, I opted for Pearl Seidensticker Buck, and then Lafcadio Hearn

." No one ever gets to Balzac and Proust without first going through Camus." Untrue. My friend raised in Algiers during the Second World War introduced me to Camus,  way after the other stuff by Balzac and Proust, because I was by then 19 going on 21.  Of course, you can always go back to B. and P. because they were extremely productive. B. to get back the furniture out of hock; and I still can't tell if P. was driven into life because Memoriam was just over the shoulder of  remembrance, since surely he wasn't looking for pocket change to afford his night's out in pursuit of memories to be awakened before morning.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 04, 2007, 03:11:05 PM
teddy174c

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2007/06/04/trillium-20-award.html

Yes, it is that time again, for the Trillium awards in Ontario.  They neglected to mention Munro, who pleasantly informed us that one of the things about writing in Canada,with or without kids in the house at the time, is that you are offered encouragement in a financial sense such as we used to have here in US as funding for the arts.   By now, I am so over-extended(not my credit!) that I've even forgotten exactly what was it Ondaatje has just written this time?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 04, 2007, 07:18:42 PM
Madupont...I don't remember if I had summer reading lists, but I've always felt sorry for kids who had to write reports whose sole purpose seems to be to take all the joy out of reading...counterproductive.   I've noticed that kids really seem to enjoy reading when they have an adult who seems interested in talking about books with them.


Title: Re: Ice cream without the squirrels
Post by: Furphy on June 04, 2007, 09:48:35 PM
I did try Berthillon’s famous ice cream while in Paris. I had a scoop of peach and a scoop of cherry and they were good.

Then another night I stopped at Josephine Vannier and had a scoop of violet and a scoop of vanilla on my way back to the hotel.

I had a Croque Monsieur for dinner one night and wanted to follow it up with a good old dish of French vanilla. But the waitress insisted that I must have chocolate drizzled on it or sprinkled on it or must someway infect my vanilla with yucky chocolate something. So I passed on desert that night.

It was on this trip that I really learned to hate chocolate and dream of founding a movement for those of us who do not think that chocolate is god.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on June 04, 2007, 09:58:44 PM
Whaaaaaaa?

Dethrone Chocolate?

Heavens to murgatroy! Life without chocolate would simply not be life at all!



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 04, 2007, 11:40:36 PM
Teddy interesting that you should mention  Roberto Bolano....state"The Pine Barrens" by John McPhee which I read and loved years ago and"The Meadowlands" ...

I should read that more often Bo, thanks. There was a lengthy article on Bolano in the New Yorker a few issues ago.  "The Pine Barrens" -- would those be the same as the pine barrens in Albany, where Nabokov's blues manage to hang on, surviving on a special species of lupine that blooms when the barrens are burned by natural forest fires, periodically?



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 04, 2007, 11:52:46 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2007/06/04/trillium-20-award.html

"Yes, it is that time again, for the Trillium awards in Ontario.  They neglected to mention Munro, who pleasantly informed us that one of the things about writing in Canada,with or without kids in the house at the time, is that you are offered encouragement in a financial sense such as we used to have here in US as funding for the arts.   By now, I am so over-extended(not my credit!) that I've even forgotten exactly what was it Ondaatje has just written this time?" madupont

Madupont -- just read a review ot the latest Ondaatje book by Louis Menand in the New Yorker -- its title is "Divisadero".  Menand rather dislikes Ondaatje's writing and oddly, though I've never actually read anything Ondaatje has written -- or perhaps I have, but have only seen him interviewed, have seen the movie "The English Patient", Menand strikes an (unfair) chord with me.  I think a combination of the placid, soulful eyed interview and the rebellious Elaine in Seinfeld episode who dared to say "I hate this movie" (even though the movie bears little resemblance to book apparently) happened to conjure up a writing style something very like what Menand describes in his article.

"Many readers respond to Ondaatje's anti-novelistic aesthetic.  But it is frustrating to read continaully against the grain of expectations, and it is even a little annoying to be expected to pick out the patterns in the metaphors, to be oblinged to trust that there are patterns, while the author looks on silently.  'The novel has been quite slow in picking up what the other arts are doing', Ondaatje has said.  'For years they have been doing things that are much more suggestive, much freer of chronological sequence.'  The impulse to experiment is worthy; one wants it to yield more than suggestion".

(I have to say -- did Woolf and Joyce and countless others play with time, etc etc?)





Title: Re: Ice cream without the squirrels
Post by: teddy174c on June 04, 2007, 11:55:49 PM
I did try Berthillon’s famous ice cream while in Paris. I had a scoop of peach and a scoop of cherry and they were good.

Then another night I stopped at Josephine Vannier and had a scoop of violet and a scoop of vanilla on my way back to the hotel.

I had a Croque Monsieur for dinner one night and wanted to follow it up with a good old dish of French vanilla. But the waitress insisted that I must have chocolate drizzled on it or sprinkled on it or must someway infect my vanilla with yucky chocolate something. So I passed on desert that night.

It was on this trip that I really learned to hate chocolate and dream of founding a movement for those of us who do not think that chocolate is god.

I can't believe the waitress could force the chocolate drizzle!

Furphy -- aside from that, sounds like a bit of a slice of heaven, that evening, that Croque Monsieur etc.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 05, 2007, 12:00:09 AM
Joe Queenan

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/books/review/Queenan-t.html?em&ex=1181102400&en=9f71e92b4104e826&ei=5087%0A

Thanks for this LHoffman and Bo -- whew, I'm glad he came down on the side of the teachers/reading in the end!

I can't recall ever being given summer reading -- but maybe was out of the country at the time. 


Title: Re: Life without Chocolate
Post by: Furphy on June 05, 2007, 12:15:55 AM
Au contraire! I am not trying to deprive anyone of chocolate but am tired of having the nasty crap pushed at me every time I turn around.



Title: Re: And here it began
Post by: Furphy on June 05, 2007, 01:11:03 AM
I've just been reading Proust's description of the ancient church of Combray.

I am fortunate in being able to identify where my literary passions began. There is no doubt in my mind that this bit of Proust awoke my love of Gothic architecture. These half dozen pages had more of an effect on my imagination than did the real thing....the cathedrals I was taken into in France when I was a child.

I would rather read Adams on Chartres or Temko on Notre Dame than visit them myself. I found both of these famous edifices smaller and darker than I had expected. They don't move me the way that a first rate mind writing about them can.

The Sainte Chapelle in Paris? Now that's another matter.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 05, 2007, 11:45:39 AM
Though I am bent on soon reaching Full Member status, I will stop for a moment to admit that I am often moved by a large edifice.  However, if they are overly penile, my awe is somewhat tempered with envy.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 05, 2007, 12:17:10 PM
teddy147c  re: #336

Whether Menand likes it or not, I was set back on my heels when I requested a book-reserve on The English Patient after seeing the film, the brilliant story conveyed on the screen,etc.   In fact, the book is very tiny by comparison but is perhaps very worth reading for the characterization of the Canadian nurse played by Juliette Binoch in the film. You will discover quite a bit less about the Hungarian count,Almasy ( a real person, whom I seem to remember served with the Afrika corps during Rommel's campaign; a  German friend sent me material back in the Western Europe forum about the time that Pope Benedict was elected to some controversy about his age at the end of WW2,but I'm not sure it is still available in my archive ) who was her patient in Italy ( which somehow manages to convey the bombing of the great Benedictine monastery).

As you may not have guessed, Ondaatje's book is rather more devoted to her lover, the "sapper" from northern India, a Sikh, with whom Ondaatje felt something more in common, as you notice the subject of some of his other novels, the bottom-line was when this fellow with the British allies corp of engineers discovers that the bomb has been dropped on Hiroshima.

I realize it is sometimes difficult to get with it, after reading quite a bit of Ondaatje's poetry from what was then Ceylon now Sri Lanka; but obviously Menand did not grasp that this is the new way to get with it as pointed out in the commentary in regard to Roberto Bolano (where there is a review attached to the Survey that points out why that is the direction in which literature is heading).


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 05, 2007, 01:32:47 PM
I think that what got me started, teddy,was this suggestion by Norah Ephron in the Survey. “The Ministry of Special Cases,” by Nathan Englander. Because it compares so unfavourably, despite the review  praise albeit caution, with what Bolano suggests.

martinbeck3 in Latin American Literature forum got extremely stirred up about how everybody could get copies (he eventually got around to The Savage Detectives)and how long it would take to get copies for: A Night in Chile. As well as,Distant Star, to where he lives in Argentina? bocajuniors who had previously lived there then told or by then had told some extremely excruciating accounts of what had occurred during the Operation Condor period in all of these countries. It was the first that I had heard about the drowning at sea when dropped from an airplane which happened to people heavily weighted down so that the bodies of the "disappeared" would not resurface. This was of course not entirely a South American inspired phenomenon from coast to coast. It wasn't until this last year that I had the opportunity to see the film by that name on either IFC or the Sundance Channel,"Operation Condor". (which reminds me there is another film on the schedule for viewing this month which I meant to  look up for exact title, as I've seen it twice now, starring Emma Thompson opposite Antonio Banderas. By really odd coincidence, the actor Christopher Reeve prior to his accident and long illness flew down on his own flight plan to make a stunning arrival and lead a demonstration in protest of the closing of theaters and arrest of actors,directors, and writers.

I suggested to martin that he go to New Directions for the books because it seemed to me that the first two Bolano books had been published by James Laughlin  before he died. So they actually have been in print for thirteen years in one case, and seven in the other. This started a trend and the new editor decided to go with it, publishing not only Bolano but Latin American and Spanish literature for the increasing demand.  On the web-site, I immediately ran into the controversy in regard to translation, so I should perhaps not have been as critical of Menand for being dogmatic. But the point has been made that we should be thankful to Chris Andrews for his translation of Bolano, able to capture the long line in English of Bolano's painterly style mastered by having been a long practiced poet before he ever wrote a novel in a burst of creativity those short years before he died.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: kitinkaboodle on June 05, 2007, 02:21:44 PM
Anyone here who has actually read any Roberto Bolano?  If so, please recommend/suggest where to begin...


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 05, 2007, 02:22:41 PM
For what it is worth, I miss the Blooming Lampost and the potentially remunerative position of Kult confessor.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 05, 2007, 10:11:21 PM
teddy147c,

In regard to #344 Banderas

http://www.sundancechannel.com/films/500062862



IMAGINING ARGENTINA


Christopher Hampton, Director
Antonio Banderas and Emma Thompson star in Christopher Hampton's (CARRINGTON) adaptation of Lawrence Thornton's award-winning novel. During the reign of Argentina's rightist military junta of the late '70s, government henchmen kidnap an outspoken journalist (Thompson). After receiving no word of her fate, her husband (Banderas) discovers he possesses psychic powers that enable him to envision what has become of the "disappeared" - 30,000 Argentinean political activists and intellectuals who were secretly tortured and murdered.

Nudity, Violence, Adult Language, Adult Content

Wednesday June 6 at 12:35PM
Saturday June 16 at 10PM
Friday June 22 at Noon
Tuesday June 26 at 7PM

Director Christopher Hampton
Producer Geoffrey C. Lands
Producer Raul Outeda
Producer Santiago Pozo
Screenwriter Christopher Hampton
 
Cinematographer Guillermo Navarro
Editor George Akers
Composer George Fenton
Actor Antonio Banderas
Actor Hector Bordoni
Actor Irene Escolar
Actor Emma Thompson
Actor Fernando Tielve


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 05, 2007, 10:31:12 PM
Anyone here who has actually read any Roberto Bolano?  If so, please recommend/suggest where to begin...

http://www.ndpublishing.com/authors/bolano.html

Begin anywhere. I began with Estrella Distante/Distant Star; but should have begun with -- A Night in Chile.

Watch for bosox posts, as he may be thinking of reading.

For everyone else turning to the link, check out the far left column where at the very end it mentions that  the translator:Chris Andrews was born in Newcastle, Australia, in 1962. He teaches in the language department of the University of Melbourne. In 2005, his translation of Roberto Bolaño's Distant Star won the Vallé-Inclan Prize.

Where is he now? Valle-Inclan, that is.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 05, 2007, 10:55:26 PM
Anyone here who has actually read any Roberto Bolano?  If so, please recommend/suggest where to begin...

http://www.ndpublishing.com/authors/bolano.html

Begin anywhere. I began with Estrella Distante/Distant Star; but should have begun with -- A Night in Chile.

Watch for bosox posts, as he may be thinking of reading.

For everyone else turning to the link, check out the far left column where at the very end it mentions that  the translator:Chris Andrews was born in Newcastle, Australia, in 1962. He teaches in the language department of the University of Melbourne. In 2005, his translation of Roberto Bolaño's Distant Star won the Vallé-Inclan Prize.

Where is he now? Valle-Inclan, that is.


Thanks for this and all the above, Madupont.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 05, 2007, 11:07:37 PM
I don't think I'll be getting around to him until late Fall.Too many unread books pilied up here with several more on the way.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Beppo on June 06, 2007, 07:15:53 AM
Anyone here who has actually read any Roberto Bolano?  If so, please recommend/suggest where to begin...

I've read both Distant Star and By Night in Chile, the latter of which I still have a copy of. Drop me your google co-ordinates and perhaps we can do a trade off somewhere  :) ideally by the Seine in July although I'm open to suggestions.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: kitinkaboodle on June 06, 2007, 07:42:18 AM
Yes, can't think of a better way to while away a summer day!  Not yet, anyway, being that it's still quite early...


And, the next question is would you read any more of Roberto?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Beppo on June 06, 2007, 07:45:34 AM
Okay - that's that fixed then. I'll organise the red rose in the lapel and we'll exchange sometime mid-July. Let's call it Operation Red Squirrel. Gives you plenty of time to come up with a swap  8)

Would I read any more - definitely. I will be getting his latest at some point but as yet (for me) I think it needs to be gotten via the web but I don't as yet order books from the web for some reason...



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: kitinkaboodle on June 06, 2007, 07:51:04 AM
Red Squirrel?  So romantic.... :-*


I know, something about a book in hand....


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 06, 2007, 03:19:55 PM
Funny, I order most of my books online these days - I discovered they're cheaper that way.

Just moved into my new house and I don't have a bookshelf there, only boxes and boxes labeled "Books". 

Beppo, I'll meet you on the left bank of the Seine at Pont Neuf with a copy of The Power and the Glory in hand.  Look for the one with the sunglasses and the big zebra-striped tote.  Then run like hell!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 06, 2007, 03:26:58 PM
Anyone here ever read "Shakey"?

Very cool biography about Neil Young.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Beppo on June 06, 2007, 04:45:06 PM
Funny, I order most of my books online these days - I discovered they're cheaper that way.

Just moved into my new house and I don't have a bookshelf there, only boxes and boxes labeled "Books". 

Beppo, I'll meet you on the left bank of the Seine at Pont Neuf with a copy of The Power and the Glory in hand.  Look for the one with the sunglasses and the big zebra-striped tote.  Then run like hell!

Noted  :D



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: valle-inclan on June 06, 2007, 10:43:17 PM
Hello, everyone. Long time no see.

Thought I'd drop by and see the new digs, and maybe throw out some book thoughts into the aether.

Currently reading Claire Tomalin's excellent bio of Thomas Hardy, which also has me returning to his novels. Just finished Haruki Murakami's latest, After Dark, which was a bit of a disappointment. I'm a very big fan of his, and this just wasn't one of his best efforts. Standard Murakami irony, wit, ennui, surreality . . . but it lacks something. The surreal aspects seem forced and his heart doesn't really seem to be in the whole thing.

Course, it might just be a bad translation. Though, Rubin is one of his best interpretors.

Oh, well. I can always go back and reread Dance Dance Dance, or Norwegian Wood to get back to Murakami land. A place I love.

Hope all is well, all ye Meanderers!!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 06, 2007, 11:46:24 PM
Greetings, Valle!  How nice to see you.


Title: Re: Edmund Gosse
Post by: Furphy on June 07, 2007, 12:21:18 AM
In answer to a question asked elsewhere in Cyberland:

Yes, Valle, I have read several of Edmund Gosse's books.

Not just Father and Son, a great favorite of mine but books like
From Shakespeare to Pope and The Jacobean Poets.

These are generally surveys with discussions of poets, playwrights and prosaists....both famous and fairly obscure....varying in length from several paragraphs to an entire chapter.

The reason Gosse isn't read anymore is because he isn't available anymore. You might find a tidy little 125 year old volume of his in some library but the odds aren't good that you will do so.

And someone unkind might point out that the reason all of his books save the autobiography are out of print is because they have nothing special to say.

But I do like old things better than new and I wouldn't in the least mind having another go at Gosse.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: valle-inclan on June 07, 2007, 02:06:21 AM
Thanks, Teddy. Good to see you, too.



And, Furphy, thanks for the word on Gosse. Will look for his Father and Son. I think I'll get further into my Hardy world of Wessex and woe, but will look for flying Gosse as well.


Title: Journey Without Maps
Post by: Dzimas on June 07, 2007, 06:44:14 AM
Nice to see you again, valle.  It has been a long time.

We are trying to stimulate a discussion on Graham Greene's Journey Without Maps in what is left of the the old NYTimes book forums, in case anyone is interested in joining in.  Look in the Vote for the Reading Group Book forum, since mick has yet to give the book a separate heading.  A few of us try to keep the embers glowing, witht he hope that the Times may one day soon restart the forums, which mick apparently promised would happen. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 07, 2007, 10:40:25 AM
With all due respect, I have to wonder, who the hell needs the NYT?  It's more fun over here, and I've boycotted the NYT website.  In my opinon, they just tossed a lot of good people into the abyss after getting free copy from them for many years, so I decided to return the favor.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on June 07, 2007, 10:46:05 AM
I agree with you, des, but it is kind of lonely discussing Graham Greene in this void, since I was the one who suggested Journey before the forums went belly up. Fortunately I have hoffman and pugey to chat with.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 07, 2007, 11:20:58 AM
I agree with you, des, but it is kind of lonely discussing Graham Greene in this void, since I was the one who suggested Journey before the forums went belly up. Fortunately I have hoffman and pugey to chat with.

If it's any consolation, I think the cream of the crop came to this wonderful site, so eventually we'll get back to actually discussing books.  I think everyone is trying to settle in, so to speak, and it's rather exciting to have Queen Teddy back and the feel of the old Meander site.  Also, CW is something I'm finding very entertaining  here.  Why don't we try agreeing on a discussion to take place over in Fiction?  (I warn you though, I am not personally up for Greene.)  Why do you think I offered (sorta) Beppo my copy, which I must admit I wouldn't really give away for sentimental reasons?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on June 07, 2007, 01:33:57 PM
Des,

On Fiction, we're now reading The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver. The discussion is to begin in July. If you haven't read the book, and enjoy differing points of view in a story, the book is excellent. It also contains some interesting observations on Africa in mid-20th century, and some American trivia from that time as well.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 07, 2007, 01:39:22 PM
Well thank you very kindly for the invitation, weezo.  I will check in on the discussion and see how it's going.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 07, 2007, 03:24:04 PM
Re: Meander Where You May
« Reply #348 on: June 05, 2007, 10:31:12 PM »

"Where is he now? Valle-Inclan, that is."

Valle,

It is so good to have a real tech around. I'm glad you made it back.

(Less sure that I'm glad that I made it back....)

As you always said, "What are you reading now?"

Colleen would say,Hi!, but she left the country....(At least, for now it isn't this country.)

So, how is Camus these days?

Hope you can recognize everyone here by their new names.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: valle-inclan on June 08, 2007, 12:14:58 AM
Thanks for the welcome, folks.

And, Maddy. Camus still reads great.

Recently was in France and stopped by a winery in Beaune. On one of the tables down in the cellar, the name Meursault was engraved. Saw it later in the rows of bottled wine. Camus probably got the name of his character from the surrounding area.

As for recognizing everyone . . . I think so. May have to brush up on the names again. Nice digs, though.


 :)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on June 08, 2007, 12:57:29 AM
It's still free, nytempsperdu, just a shadow of its former self.  I tried to get the handful of persons discussing the book to come over to the fiction or non-fiction forum here, but they prefer to discuss Journey without Maps there,

http://forums.nytimes.com/top/opinion/readersopinions/forums/books/voteforthereadinggroupbook/index.html

Just screen out lifeline, if you are interested.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on June 08, 2007, 02:32:50 AM
I agree with you, des, but it is kind of lonely discussing Graham Greene in this void, since I was the one who suggested Journey before the forums went belly up. Fortunately I have hoffman and pugey to chat with.

"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself — so like a brother, really — I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again. For everything to be consummated, for me to feel less alone, I had only to wish that there be a large crowd of spectators the day of my execution and that they greet me with cries of hate."
-- Albert Camus, The Stranger


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 08, 2007, 07:56:16 AM
Funny, I order most of my books online these days - I discovered they're cheaper that way.

Just moved into my new house and I don't have a bookshelf there, only boxes and boxes labeled "Books". 

Beppo, I'll meet you on the left bank of the Seine at Pont Neuf with a copy of The Power and the Glory in hand.  Look for the one with the sunglasses and the big zebra-striped tote.  Then run like hell!
Hell, we moved seven years ago and I still have those boxes.

Still in Hotlanta?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 08, 2007, 07:59:57 AM
I agree with you, des, but it is kind of lonely discussing Graham Greene in this void, since I was the one who suggested Journey before the forums went belly up. Fortunately I have hoffman and pugey to chat with.

If it's any consolation, I think the cream of the crop came to this wonderful site, so eventually we'll get back to actually discussing books.  I think everyone is trying to settle in, so to speak, and it's rather exciting to have Queen Teddy back and the feel of the old Meander site.  Also, CW is something I'm finding very entertaining  here.  Why don't we try agreeing on a discussion to take place over in Fiction?  (I warn you though, I am not personally up for Greene.)  Why do you think I offered (sorta) Beppo my copy, which I must admit I wouldn't really give away for sentimental reasons?
Journey Without Maps is non-fiction.  It is an account Greene wrote of a trip he made through Liberia with his cousin, whom he almost never mentions.  Read it years ago.  No idea what box it is in.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 08, 2007, 08:02:08 AM
Des,

On Fiction, we're now reading The Poisonwood Bible by XXXXXXXXXXXXX. The discussion is to begin in July. If you haven't read the book, and enjoy differing points of view in a story, the book is excellent. It also contains some interesting observations on Africa in mid-20th century, and some American trivia from that time as well.

Shhhh.  You want to kill off this forum too?

I may very well have the time to read it, though if so may not be able to post.

I did read The Ammalgamation Polka by Stephen Wright (not the comedian) during a total of 13 hours of flights and layovers yesterday.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 08, 2007, 10:13:08 AM
[[/quote]

Still in Hotlanta?
[/quote]

Well, in METRO Hotlanta, but in the bumpkin redneck part way off in the cut, as we say here.  But my little half acre is such a pleasant, woodsy little refuge - I just love it.  We are trying to simply keep to ourselves, although my son experienced an unpleasant introduction to the Paulding County sheriff's deputies the other night.  He inadvertently made an illegal left turn at about 2:00 AM (it's black as pitch out here at night in some areas and I had made the same mistake in broad daylight.)  He said the blue lights and sirens went on and they screeched up into the parking lot of the store as though there had been a robbery.  Corey had NO idea they were after him and blithely walked into the store.  They called him out and looked at his driver's license.  "Where you comin' frum?" one deputy asked.  Corey responded with his address.  "Well that's not whut it sez heeyer, retorted the deputy, looking at Corey's license."  "We just moved here a couple of weeks ago."  Then the other deputy walked up to him.  "Where you comin' frum?" What the hell?  There are ZERO bars or places of ill repute open at that time of night out there, where do they think he's coming from and why do they care???



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 08, 2007, 10:15:13 AM
Des,

On Fiction, we're now reading The Poisonwood Bible by XXXXXXXXXXXXX. The discussion is to begin in July. If you haven't read the book, and enjoy differing points of view in a story, the book is excellent. It also contains some interesting observations on Africa in mid-20th century, and some American trivia from that time as well.

Shhhh.  You want to kill off this forum too?

I may very well have the time to read it, though if so may not be able to post.

I did read The Ammalgamation Polka by Stephen Wright (not the comedian) during a total of 13 hours of flights and layovers yesterday.

I have that book, but haven't read it yet.  Did you enjoy it?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 08, 2007, 10:57:50 AM
Yeah.  Probably a mistake to read it on the plane, though.  Concentration on Wright's language pays off.  It is often quite funny in an arch sort of way.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 09, 2007, 01:06:30 AM
Well -- I spotted Bolano's "The Savage Detectives" in hardback in a bookstore in Edgemont Village in North Vancouver -- cost $38 Canadian I believe it was -- so I think I'll pursue it in library.

It's always a bit difficult to get a good discussion going on any particular book in a freestyle forum such as Meander, as you need at least three or four motivated people to take part, people who've read the book obviously, recently or in the not too distant past, and are willing to take part.  My difficulty is when I've read something and ask if anyone wants to discuss, usually no one else happens to have read the thing recently -- or wants to discuss -- and if it's something I plan to read, I'm too slow.  I did manage an interesting discussion of sorts with Madupont on the Munro short story.

I guess that was (or is) the good thing about the NYT Monthly Book discussion = it's structured, people vote and commit.

When I first arrived at the Books forums, hopped over in 1998 from the Maureen Down forum, to the Nabokov forum where I found Whiskey, Ginger and I believe Philostrate discussing Lolita.  It so happened I'd in the previous few years discovered Nabokov, read a bunch of his books, and so this forum seemed like manna from heaven -- indeed it was; a Pale Fire discussion took off from there.  I knew I was a latecomer as others at the time fondly recalled a certain "Gilligan's Island" themed discussion on yet another forum -- and there was  Lit Theory forum with fully engaged, erudit, witty and knowlegeable participatants.  Plus there was the "Forum Suggestions" forum where people vented peeves about how the forums were run, suggested new forums etc.  It was there I suggested the "Meander where you May" forum and wish was granted Christmas of 98 I believe it was.  Bosox and Chartres and Goliard joined along with all the others and what a joy that was.

At any rate -- this  morning finished reading an eloquent personal history in the latest New Yorker by ex-Haitian writer -- Edwidge Danticat about a woman she'd grown up with for a period of her childhood when both were taken in by amazing uncle and aunt when parents left during regime of Papa Doc. 

I find I'm such a pathetically slow reader than I have several New Yorkers folded over to articles that I'm midway through reading.  Still to finish Paul Mcartney article in earlier one.

"The Man Within" -- Whisky - have you read that?  I'm thinking of starting it.

Des -- there was a personal history by Gunther Grass on his time serving under the SS at the end of the war.

Chartres, -- fascinating comment re preferring the writing to the thing -- I've often thought of that -- Annie Dillard I think recommended reading the best writers on history and historical sites rather than going there and I can't remember her reason why (if an environmentalist of course the reason would be obvious -- save all that airplane fuel from spewing out into the sky) -- but I expect her reason was -- to save time.

Still -- I envy those who get to travel -- the little I've done as an adult I have to say this about:  the movement forward, gives you instant purpose, it's a lot of fun and it's an adventure.





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 09, 2007, 06:05:20 AM
teddy174c 

« Reply #380

"Annie Dillard I think recommended reading the best writers on history and historical sites rather than going there and I can't remember her reason why ...but I expect her reason was -- to save time."

It was to save time. Back in the Seventies, Dillard was regarded somewhat more as a poet  who had returned to the countryside(an old tradition)--in a way like May Swenson ,or was it May Sarton? which ever one invented the "furry person".

But, of course, when you are on the site of where you are going to sit and write, you have to pursue  your observations of nature, meditations on the discoveries made in reclaiming the house whichever May was up in New England doing that, not to mention the kitchen garden if you have removed yourself far enough from the usual supplies; and the latter leads to yet new observations of natural science. A very Thoreau outlook in those years because of the war, we knew we were under surveillance because of his concept of civil disobedience. Or, you could go country-Japanese, with Gary Snyder who was preparing  what some said was survival camp(but that was merely because he had been a forest ranger in solitude on the look out tower, or Smoky the Bear Bodhisattva) but, in reality was the life-style of the post-fossil-fuel century, which is now fast upon us, preferably without nuclear generation, as he had just returned from Japan.

He used to reassure college audiences that humans had lived all the early centuries of our existence with some high carbon fuel but done quite well without fossil fuel --and that they, indicating the college audience, or we, if signifying mankind in general, the sangha, would be able to do it again and we would still be here. His addressing people attending school in those years was a lecture somewhere between anthropology which was his field and the Asian traditional teachings by resonance from master to disciple.

So, in some sense, Annie Dillard was on the Taoist path as a recluse observing nature closely and jotting down what she saw.

Strangely enough, after reading a bit of her publishings and comparing that experience, I discovered that my eighty-something at the time great-aunt was also reading Annie Dillard from the point of view of a generation that had been born into that circumstance to immigrant parents settling wild country when, of course,that was the acceptable occupation of a young lady, thus the effect of reading Annie was something like an exchange of letters between young women as she had been.

Then we went on to Wendell Berry, I sent a book of his poems off to Hazel and she went bananas, causing her to recall farming in the late 19th.century, raising imported lifestock, in some detail. She recommended that (in exchange) I read Vergil (or, Virgil, as the case would be) because that was how they had farmed.

Ps. I have the same problem with The New Yorker, about two years' worth.


Title: Re: Being there in books
Post by: Furphy on June 09, 2007, 10:08:50 AM
It's not just a matter of jet fuel or time, Ted.

But to shuffle around Notre Dame with 65,000 tourists and their cell phone cameras hardly helps one to "be in the moment" at any historical or literary site. And then to find, perhaps, a McDonald's set down where George Washington embarked on his trip across the Delaware River?

Thankfully I had the good sense to go to Balzac's house in Passy on a Sunday morning. I don't think there were eight people in the house and that included the curators. I was able to commune with the man and think Balzacian thoughts without distraction.

Another day I had hunted up Henry James' apartment on Rue Cambon and was trying to imagine him peering from the window to check the weather before he left for his favorite cafe. Just then a woman who had embarked from the Houston airport with me, haled me from the crowd of passersby. Yes, my moment with Henry was spoiled by the one human being in Paris eager to talk to me lighting upon me just then.

Hit and miss, hit and miss. I just walked the streets of Paris and enjoyed the few unexpected finds that I happened upon quite by accident.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 09, 2007, 10:23:25 AM
teddy174c 

« Reply #380

"Annie Dillard I think recommended reading the best writers on history and historical sites rather than going there and I can't remember her reason why ...but I expect her reason was -- to save time."

It was to save time. Back in the Seventies, Dillard was regarded somewhat more as a poet  who had returned to the countryside(an old tradition)--in a way like May Swenson ,or was it May Sarton? which ever one invented the "furry person" ...  So, in some sense, Annie Dillard was on the Taoist path as a recluse observing nature closely and jotting down what she saw.

Strangely enough, after reading a bit of her publishings and comparing that experience, I discovered that my eighty-something at the time great-aunt was also reading Annie Dillard from the point of view of a generation that had been born into that circumstance to immigrant parents settling wild country when, of course,that was the acceptable occupation of a young lady, thus the effect of reading Annie was something like an exchange of letters between young women as she had been.

Then we went on to Wendell Berry, I sent a book of his poems off to Hazel and she went bananas, causing her to recall farming in the late 19th.century, raising imported lifestock, in some detail. She recommended that (in exchange) I read Vergil (or, Virgil, as the case would be) because that was how they had farmed.

Ps. I have the same problem with The New Yorker, about two years' worth.

Thanks Madupont -- I expect you are absolutely right about Dillard's point there -- nice story about your great-aunt, and point about the "acceptable occupation of young women"  I have a book called "The Country Flowers of a Victorian lady" - "The book of Memory" - a labour of love in fact of this amateur artist Fanny Robinson, a book of her illustrated flowers and poems, that I'm only now picking up to look at carefully.  The intro says "Of course, sketching and painting in watercolour were standard to a middle-class girl's education in her time, and the art of illumination was also considered an appropriately genteel puruit for women.  Botany, too, was seen as an "amusement for the ladies", and many popular guides to wildflowers and garden plants were written by, and for, women." 


Title: Re: Being there in books
Post by: teddy174c on June 09, 2007, 10:36:26 AM
It's not just a matter of jet fuel or time, Ted.

But to shuffle around Notre Dame with 65,000 tourists and their cell phone cameras hardly helps one to "be in the moment" at any historical or literary site. And then to find, perhaps, a McDonald's set down where George Washington embarked on his trip across the Delaware River?

Ha -- of course, a key point!  Come ot think of it, that's why I've thought if ever I do travel anywhere beyond Victoria, I'll have to research the heck out of where I plan to go, and when, -- ie as off-season, off time, as possible -- because any line-up or crowd would make the endeavour pretty useless. 


Thankfully I had the good sense to go to Balzac's house in Passy on a Sunday morning. I don't think there were eight people in the house and that included the curators. I was able to commune with the man and think Balzacian thoughts without distraction.

Another day I had hunted up Henry James' apartment on Rue Cambon and was trying to imagine him peering from the window to check the weather before he left for his favorite cafe. Just then a woman who had embarked from the Houston airport with me, haled me from the crowd of passersby. Yes, my moment with Henry was spoiled by the one human being in Paris eager to talk to me lighting upon me just then.

Hit and miss, hit and miss. I just walked the streets of Paris and enjoyed the few unexpected finds that I happened upon quite by accident.

Furphy, this is a delightful story.  I can picture you looking out the window, trying to see what James saw, only to have the then rudely interrupted by the now, with distracting arm movement of this lady coming into line of vision.  And the business of "hit and miss" -- I would expect this is what seasoned travel writers find also.  When an ideal situation, setting, is carefully planned, and expected, for some reason, it tends to disappoint -- but the unplanned things ....

Re: picnics -- in books and movies and my imagination, the eating outdoors, is very appealing to me, an ideal sensory situation in fact.  However -- in reality, the picnic is very uncomfortable, with ants crawling up legs, cold, blinding sun, moisture, etc.  I guess the French do it right eating outside with tables and cloths - rather than sprawling on thin blanket on the ground.  Apparently, my grandfather didn't like North American I guess style picnics and I think he was ahead of his time to admit to their being overrated.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 09, 2007, 12:08:02 PM
The French feel they do everything right.  But I'm stunned to learn that they don't do it as in, "Dejeuner sur L'Herbe." 



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 09, 2007, 12:36:54 PM
barton -- good point -- though still better than this ..

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/211887



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 10, 2007, 01:26:34 AM
Furphy   Reply #382

"And then to find, perhaps, a McDonald's set down where George Washington embarked on his trip across the Delaware River?"

Never. But you might find Geraldo Rivera with microphone in hand. That has been known to happen.

"Another day I had hunted up Henry James' apartment on Rue Cambon ..."

You see, to avoid that sort of impasse, when in that neighborhood commune with the spirit of Coco Chanel.

Would Henry mind?


teddy174c  Re:#383
"The book of Memory" - a labour of love in fact of this amateur artist Fanny Robinson, a book of her illustrated flowers and poems, that I'm only now picking up to look at carefully.  The intro says "Of course, sketching and painting in watercolour were standard to a middle-class girl's education in her time, "

Oh, that would be Hazel's sister,Jean.  We went up to the attic one day to drag down some old magazines tied in bundles, the original Vanity Fair ; and that was when I discovered the attic would also have been a ball-room. It even had a Turkish Corner, Then Hazel pointed out a folding screen of the kind which used to be found in every lady's boudoir,"Jean painted that.", of course it had grown quite dark with age but you could see the inevitable tumbling loose floral bouquet that had been the requisite decor.


Title: Medieval History
Post by: snyggokul on June 10, 2007, 06:35:42 PM
This past week I read by great medievalist Jacques Le Goff an interesting little book which in Portuguese is called (literal translation = "God in the Middle Ages: Conversations with Jean-Luc Pouthier" ) . I'm beginning to think this one has not been translated into English; I wanted to mention it to a friend in Texas, but could not find it in English. Anyway, the link to the original in French is here: 

http://www.amazon.fr/Dieu-du-Moyen-%C3%82ge/dp/2227471603/ref=sr_1_5/402-6207808-7427313?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181512544&sr=8-5 (http://www.amazon.fr/Dieu-du-Moyen-%C3%82ge/dp/2227471603/ref=sr_1_5/402-6207808-7427313?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181512544&sr=8-5)

Thought the book would give me some food for thought for this very short ( actually 3-hour only ) course I'm taking tomorrow evening on God & the woman : philosophy & mysticism in the Middle Ages with very good Brazilian philosopher Luis Felipe Pondé.

And THEN, in my very caotic library, I found this VERY old book by Johan Huizinga, the old master on medieval times,  The Waning of the Middle Ages,  read so long ago that if it weren't for some notes in the margins I'd maybe doubt having read it... Delightful & illuminating read indeed:

http://www.amazon.com/Waning-Middle-Ages-Johan-Huizinga/dp/0844669849/


Title: Re: Medieval History
Post by: teddy174c on June 10, 2007, 09:59:10 PM
This past week I read by great medievalist Jacques Le Goff an interesting little book which in Portuguese is called (literal translation = "God in the Middle Ages: Conversations with Jean-Luc Pouthier" ) . I'm beginning to think this one has not been translated into English; I wanted to mention it to a friend in Texas, but could not find it in English. Anyway, the link to the original in French is here: 

http://www.amazon.fr/Dieu-du-Moyen-%C3%82ge/dp/2227471603/ref=sr_1_5/402-6207808-7427313?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181512544&sr=8-5 (http://www.amazon.fr/Dieu-du-Moyen-%C3%82ge/dp/2227471603/ref=sr_1_5/402-6207808-7427313?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181512544&sr=8-5)

Thought the book would give me some food for thought for this very short ( actually 3-hour only ) course I'm taking tomorrow evening on God & the woman : philosophy & mysticism in the Middle Ages with very good Brazilian philosopher Luis Felipe Pondé.

And THEN, in my very caotic library, I found this VERY old book by Johan Huizinga, the old master on medieval times,  The Waning of the Middle Ages,  read so long ago that if it weren't for some notes in the margins I'd maybe doubt having read it... Delightful & illuminating read indeed:

http://www.amazon.com/Waning-Middle-Ages-Johan-Huizinga/dp/0844669849/

Thank you snyggokul -- these books look most interesting!

I can't find an English translation either for the book you mention -- though find many other translated titles of Le Geoff.

I wonder if your course will include discussion of Julian of Norwich -http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/julian.htm-



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 10, 2007, 10:01:17 PM
Christopher Plummer as Nabokov lecturing on Kafka's Metamorphosis (courtesy of You-Tube)..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boSFjzWJXcU



Title: Re: Medieval history
Post by: snyggokul on June 11, 2007, 12:01:50 AM
teddy,

Thanks for the link to Julian of Norwich; will let you know if she is mentioned during the course.

It was already a very short course, with two 2-hour meetings, supposed to begin last Monday and finish tomorrow, but then Prof. Pondé became ill with a nasty cold + a fever and the course was re-scheduled as a 3-hour course to happen tomorrow evening only.

I decided to take it anyway because professor is supposed to be good, the theme is of interest to me, with the re-scheduling came a discount of about 40%, and the course is taking place at my fave bookstore, which has just opened its new store, and thus has become the biggest bookstore in Brazil (with an area of 4300 square meters).

See 2nd and 3rd pics (this one with a lovely dragon at the children's section ) in this article. The 1st pic is of its owner, Pedro Herz, in his penthouse, from where one gets a beauuutiful view of São Paulo, my very dear 'hometown' :

http://vejasaopaulo.abril.com.br/revista/vejasp/edicoes/2009/m0129481.html

Yep, Le Goff has many of his books translated into English, but apparently not this one yet. Now, if you like Medieval history, go for Johan Huizinga; he is considered one of the best medievalists ever.


Title: Re: Medieval history
Post by: teddy174c on June 12, 2007, 11:02:50 PM
teddy,

Thanks for the link to Julian of Norwich; will let you know if she is mentioned during the course.

http://vejasaopaulo.abril.com.br/revista/vejasp/edicoes/2009/m0129481.html

Yep, Le Goff has many of his books translated into English, but apparently not this one yet. Now, if you like Medieval history, go for Johan Huizinga; he is considered one of the best medievalists ever.

Thank you Snyggokul.  I would like to hear about your course when you have finished.

I lived in Sao Paulo in 1972 I think it was when I was fifteen.  My mother and father and I were put up in a high rise apartment building and I took a school bus up a long winding road to the American Graded School every day -- was pretty terrified there for the most part.

This was the year a building burned down, helicopters circled and nothing could be done.

I remember food and smells:  thick milkshakes, thick french fries and steaks; we went to a place called Interlagos horseback riding around a wonderful lake, freestyle -- parents stayed at some restaurant drinking caparinhas and getting pretty sloshed while my visiting from Canada 18-19 year old sister and I rode.

Buses were plentiful and my sister who was better at learning Portuguese than I and a quick study at learning the routes around the city, led the way.  Some buses smelled strongly of garlic.  There was a shopping mall - was it called Jules and Jim?  Whenever I hear a certain song that I can't now remember I think of that and a certain tangy hamburger sauce.

For a holiday we went to Rio (and I remember stopping at these wonderful roadside inns with meat on spits) - which was known as the "fun" city as opposed to Sao Paulo which was known as the "serious business" city.  The government then -- I can't remember except that it was thought to be some kind of semi-dictator and criminals didn't fare well, as were shot according to the tabloids en route the police station "for blinking fast" etc.

We would have cafe com leitche and beautiful warm crunchy outside, soft inside, Portuguese buns for breakfast.  There were vibrant market places.

It was pretty beautiful, and delectable in Sao Paulo - some houses with lovely thick palms at entry way.

I was trapped in the apartment with parents and played the piano loudly and sang -- I now shudder thinking of the poor neighbours.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 12, 2007, 11:35:37 PM
teddy174c

Have you had a chance to read the Guenther Grass reminiscience in The New Yorker as yet?

I was first of all astounded by the photographs; even more so, as his story unfolded.  His family were  like people(adults) as I remembered them from that period of time; and the children, let us not forget the children. You wrote such a very evocative  account of what sounds like a similar age during another period of time although with some of the same occurences which stand out to a child.

Grass certainly makes a point, whereas we,the public,are expecting somewhat an apologia which he gives us in tone and then explains how it is the same tone as various other writers who have had that experience,and you realize after awhile, by the tenth or the thirteenth page that he is reminding you of Iraq.

Of course, I'll say it frankly before someone enters from stage right and wishes to quibble about it, but I never expected him to apologize. To me, the reason why becomes obvious in the reading. Those experiences in the Russian woods remind me of the accounts that I often attribute to Polanski but are really Jerzy Koskinski and/or Elie Weisel


Title: Brazil in 1972 + Medieval Times
Post by: snyggokul on June 14, 2007, 03:05:01 PM
teddy,

(0_0) Oh, wow ! You were here in 1972 !!! You should come back someday for a visit , teddy; you'll find a VERY different country and a MUCH bigger and developed São Paulo !

Buses are much more modern now, and we have one of the cleanest and most modern subway systems too.

People still drink caipirinhas and our shopping malls now are as good as the ones you find in New York or Paris.

Rio is still very beautiful and fun, but it is unfortunately too violent , as the slums spread and the drug dealers sort of 'command' them; their money buys weapons that are more modern & powerful than the ones our police force has OR would have the authorization to use, anyway...

This situation is beginning to change now, for with the Panamerican Games beginning in Rio next month, the army is going up the slums -- (o.0) something they should have done a long time ago , for the simple reason this IS after all our own war -- to make sure people are protected and to intimidate the drug dealers -- and 18,000 police officers are spread all over Rio.

São Paulo is still the business center , just that MUCH, MUCH more modern and with an offer of awesome restaurants, fancy pubs, & night clubs, dozens of theater plays, shows, art exhibitions, hundreds of cinemas... You name it; São Paulo now offers inhabitants and visitors plenty to see and do.

Lula, the leftist who used to incite & gather thousands at that time in protests is now  our President, twice elected by the people, and this is finally a democracy, still with serious  problems due to corruption, denounced all the time at large scale by our free press. This is an altogether different country, teddy; you should definetely try to come to Brazil again !

*********************************

The COURSE: The only bad aspect of it was its lasting only 3 hours. The professor is sooooooooooooo good, of the type that can talk forever about his subject & still find an incredible amount of interesting things to say .  I took some 12 pages of notes just about the 1st part of the class.

His emphasis was on the interesting and positive aspects of the Middle Ages, so commonly associated with all that is dark, one big reason for this being the  Catholic church with its Inquisition, and all. He talked for quite a while about their notion of authority in the Middle Ages and how this starts to be completely deconstructed in the Modern Age, and of sovereignty x democracy with its emphasis on the people, about the women who wrote at the time -- but nope, no time to mention Juliana of Norwich or any other woman; though during the coffee break he and I did talk a bit about Eleanor of Aquitaine, whom I REALLY like -- and about their notion of God , with everyone's constant  questioning about the meaning of life, of God, etc.

Other aspects he discussed were : how the bourgeoisie builds the economy in the Middle Ages -- always comparing to our times -- AND how they dealt with their sexuality, when he made us all laugh, of course, by saying they were probably happier in this aspect  than we are now, since there was no pressure towards performance or success; their recognition that they were basically sinners, gave them lots of freedom to go ahead and be sinful...  Oh, of course it was then that he talked about the literature of Chivalry and the ascetic ideals that ruled the lives of men and women, with the impossibility of true love happening through marriage, since perfect love was for them the one that is impossible to reach, etc.

It was a GREAT class; everyone left the place feeling eager to read &  know much more about the different aspects of the Middle Ages...  



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 14, 2007, 11:00:03 PM
 teddy  re:#380 "Des -- there was a personal history by Gunther Grass on his time serving under the SS at the end of the war."
 
 
Peeling the Onion
by Günter Grass
translated from the German by Michael Henry Heim
ISBN-13: 978-0-15-101477-4
ISBN-10: 0-15-101477-9
$26.00

In this extraordinary memoir, Nobel Prize-winning author Günter Grass remembers his early life, from his boyhood in a cramped two-room apartment in Danzig through the late 1950s, when The Tin Drum was published.

During the Second World War, Grass volunteered for the submarine corps at the age of fifteen but was rejected; two years later, in 1944, he was instead drafted into the Waffen-SS. Taken prisoner by American forces as he was recovering from shrapnel wounds, he spent the final weeks of the war in an American POW camp. After the war, Grass resolved to become an artist and moved with his first wife to Paris, where h began to write the novel that would make him famous.

Full of the bravado of youth, the rubble of postwar Germany, the thrill of wild love affairs, and the exhilaration of Paris in the early fifties, Peeling the Onion—which caused great controversy when it was published in Germany—reveals Grass at his most intimate.

teddy: this is from Harcourt, just ran across it today which means that I should have known that The New Yorker story was the grabber as there is not identification whether this is on the Fall List, was released for summer reading, or could have been out on the Spring List?

I have to go back and look at the text on-line again because I chose not to make notes on the pages of The New Yorker when I began to read; but I was taking mental notes of things to follow up about places that he mentions in the 1940s.

Previously, I had noticed his habit of being able to tie in places and events, so that he can write parallel stories with alternating chapters about different periods of time, while I was reading -- Crab-walk, a book which had been offered or presented as a possibilty to the readers to vote upon for a discussion at the once upon a time forums we know so well.

No one was particularly interested in the moderator's suggestion. I was, however, fascinated, because writer and I were of similar age and we had just recently discovered the "internet" as a place where the known computer could take you conversationally or interactively, perhaps, into dangerous waters....    A metaphor of that kind surfaces spontaneously. Grass enjoyed writing about the generational gap that he described and that there were political intensities in the period in which he wrote Crab-walk; but, because of this new form of communication, which brought together people over distances who carried allegiances from the past, it became rather tricky to avoid stepping on  ideological toes when hitting the keys.

Our moderator of course could mention, that he had noticed things do not sound the same, or rather read the same, when you can not see the little gesture, or really hear the inflection invisibly accompanying the text, when a dialogue takes place.  Everyone figuratively nodded their invisible heads in agreement and I didn't think too much of the obvious at the moment. Later, I had reason to ponder why someone who analyzed literature to a degree could really put much stock in that idea and overlook the facts of what writing can do.

In Crab-walk, Grass deals with that as a modern temperament impeding communication, as just one of the themes running through this short little book which deals with the camaraderie of malevolence and the many oversights of political enthusiasm of the kind we so readily witness in our present day experiences.

I'm afraid that this particular book, which he presented so cheerfully to the public, was the very thing that  apparently entitled people to go racing back and forth across the stage waving flags from stage left to stage right and vice-versa, gleefully and maliciously accusing the writer of being guilty in the most surreptitiously shameful way.

I didn't really expect him to answer their charges.  But, he must have known at heart that the tides would turn just about exactly when they did; and I am looking forward to reading this "answer" in future.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 15, 2007, 11:06:07 AM
teddy -

I've been intending to read the Grass book for a long time.  Wish I could generate some interest among others in a discussion of it.

As for your envy of travelers, I feel the same way.  Sometimes I "shop the fares" just for the heck of it - the temptation to jet over to Europe is an endless temptation.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 16, 2007, 03:33:28 AM
I mentioned this book"Where Bigfoot Walks" by Robert Michael Pyle  that I was directed to while buying another book at Amazon.It's from 1995 and I am 2/3rds of the way through.It is a great read  not so much about Bigfoot as about the possibility of it's being and mans impact on the natural world.It is about the area of Mt.Saint Helens mostly and the author is a Butterfly dude.Lepor.....whatever and was involved in Nabokov's Butterflies with Brian Boyd.Anyhoo he talks about taking a dump in the woods at one point and saying most nature writers never mention daily functions in the narrative.He then mentions a book"How to Shit in the Woods" That is a serious book and I only wish I had heard of it when we had the old bi -monthly non-fiction vote.


Title: Re: Not literary but I am using a book so....
Post by: Furphy on June 16, 2007, 09:43:02 AM
Still reading Proust slowly and mindfully. But the big excitement of my week was knitting my first sock.

Everyone made turning a heel sound so dreadfully difficult. I faced doing so with the trepidation I felt going into childbirth.

I followed the instructions....they weren't difficult....and turned the prettiest little heel you've ever seen.

I rewarded myself with a gorgeous skein of Opal sock yarn.

Now it's back to the needles.....

I am beginning to feel the same way some gun nuts feel. The only way you'll ever get my double points away from me is by prying them out of my cold, dead hands.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 17, 2007, 12:36:27 AM

Of course, I'll say it frankly before someone enters from stage right and wishes to quibble about it, but I never expected him to apologize. To me, the reason why becomes obvious in the reading. Those experiences in the Russian woods remind me of the accounts that I often attribute to Polanski but are really Jerzy Koskinski and/or Elie Weisel


....I didn't really expect him to answer their charges.  But, he must have known at heart that the tides would turn just about exactly when they did; and I am looking forward to reading this "answer" in future.

Thanks Madupont,

Interesting you mentioning wondering about his need to apologize.  Reading the reminiscence, keeping in mind it was a translation, what I found fascinating was not, I guess, that lack of apology -- of course how could he apologize really?  He was a soldier doing what he was supposed to do for his country.  Soldiers don't ask questions.  They do or die. He neither apologized, nor excused himself, saying he volunteered and wasn't at all pressured by his parents who it would seem were less than fanatical about Hitler.  What struck me, rather chillingly, because naturally -- how else would it be, was just how, at the age of 15 through 17, from the time he joined up to the time he miraculously escaped death as the Soviets advanced and the villages burned, he didn't ponder at all Hitler's screaming aggression or just what his country was doing, even though his family knew that Jews were "having a bad time", though they couldn't really understand why because certain friends/tradespeople they knew liked were Jews, etc. 

His main reason for wanting to join up, it would seem, was to escape the misery and poverty of his existence at home, to wear a flashy uniform, get away from his home and the misery of the toilet situation, and have something to do.  If he felt any sort of emotion or pride in his leaders' rampant aggression or had any inkling of the mass murders of its citizens, he didn't describe it in this reminiscence.  What was chilling, was that he didn't seem much different from most people, in those sorts of circumstances.

This is all I've read of his -- didn't even know he was taken prisoner by the Americans, so can't really comment much more on his writing. 


Title: Re: Brazil in 1972 + Medieval Times
Post by: teddy174c on June 17, 2007, 12:48:43 AM
teddy,

(0_0) Oh, wow ! You were here in 1972 !!! You should come back someday for a visit , teddy; you'll find a VERY different country and a MUCH bigger and developed São Paulo !

I'd love to come back and visit some time snyggokul.  Sao Paulo was pretty developed when I was there -- so can't imagine it now!

Buses are much more modern now, and we have one of the cleanest and most modern subway systems too.

Actually -- I thought the buses even then were superior to what we have in Vancouver now -- in terms of frequency of buses.  I can't remember taking the subway -- so I think that must be new.


"Rio is still very beautiful and fun, but it is unfortunately too violent , as the slums spread and the drug dealers sort of 'command' them; their money buys weapons that are more modern & powerful than the ones our police force has OR would have the authorization to use, anyway... This situation is beginning to change now, for with the Panamerican Games beginning in Rio next month, the army is going up the slums -- (o.0) something they should have done a long time ago , for the simple reason this IS after all our own war -- to make sure people are protected and to intimidate the drug dealers -- and 18,000 police officers are spread all over Rio."

A few months ago I watched the movie "City of God".

It's interesting how international scrutiny will bring on clean-up efforts.  In Vancouver we have the infamously "poorest postal code" in Canada -- the Downtown Eastide, where drug addicts eke out existences on the streets and in cockroach and bedbug-ridden hotels run by unscrupulous landlords who receive the welfare cheques for the residents' rooms, and instead pocket them, providing the addicts with drugs instead (conviently supplied in a hotel room), and turn them out to sleep on the streets instead.  Meth labs are abundent.  Hells Angels run the waterfront and drugs that come in there.    Well, with the Olympics coming up in 2010, there's a frantic speed up of efforts to get this stuff cleaned up -- I guess if that's the reason, better than not happening at all.  Housing is the issue -- without a clean, safe, stable place as a start, there's not much hope to begin tackling the addiction problem. 




*********************************

"The COURSE:  His emphasis was on the interesting and positive aspects of the Middle Ages, so commonly associated with all that is dark, one big reason for this being the  Catholic church with its Inquisition, and all. He talked for quite a while about their notion of authority in the Middle Ages and how this starts to be completely deconstructed in the Modern Age, and of sovereignty x democracy with its emphasis on the people, about the women who wrote at the time -- but nope, no time to mention Juliana of Norwich or any other woman; though during the coffee break he and I did talk a bit about Eleanor of Aquitaine, whom I REALLY like -- and about their notion of God , with everyone's constant  questioning about the meaning of life, of God, etc.

It was a GREAT class; everyone left the place feeling eager to read &  know much more about the different aspects of the Middle Ages...  

[/quote]

Sounds like a great class and an inspiring teacher -- thanks for wonderful description.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 17, 2007, 12:58:51 AM
teddy -

I've been intending to read the Grass book for a long time.  Wish I could generate some interest among others in a discussion of it.

As for your envy of travelers, I feel the same way.  Sometimes I "shop the fares" just for the heck of it - the temptation to jet over to Europe is an endless temptation.



Des --  I hope you do generate some interest -- I found his reminiscence interesting and now at least am alerted thanks to your original mention. 

Sounds like you've got a nice new home and piece of land now, so probably can resist temptation for awhile.  What's the name of the Brit writer for the Guardian -- George Monbiot?  He's the left wing ecological writer, who's written a book called "the heating of the planet" or something like that -- was here in Vancouver a few months ago, talking about the top ten things you can do to help reduce green house gases -- the number one thing being to reduce the number of flights you take a year, given that the amount of carbon dioxide one airplane spews into the atmosphere is so huge and destructive.  He said ironically, many celebrities who proclaim their ecofriendly views, even raise money for same etc, have private lear jets they zip around on to various restaurants in different cities -- and he names them in the book I believe.  Whereupon, the brilliant hostess joshed him "so now you're going have to swim back to England.."

 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 17, 2007, 01:03:58 AM
I mentioned this book"Where Bigfoot Walks" by Robert Michael Pyle  that I was directed to while buying another book at Amazon.It's from 1995 and I am 2/3rds of the way through.It is a great read  not so much about Bigfoot as about the possibility of it's being and mans impact on the natural world.It is about the area of Mt.Saint Helens mostly and the author is a Butterfly dude.Lepor.....whatever and was involved in Nabokov's Butterflies with Brian Boyd.Anyhoo he talks about taking a dump in the woods at one point and saying most nature writers never mention daily functions in the narrative.He then mentions a book"How to Shit in the Woods" That is a serious book and I only wish I had heard of it when we had the old bi -monthly non-fiction vote.

Bo -- I had big plans to make it my one energetic goal today today, recovering finally from "bitch of a cold" (as described by colleague suffering from same), to walk to Indigo Bookstore (about a 40 minute walk from here) in the gloomyish day, to get the Pyle book.  Prudently called them first and they don't have it.  So will hunt at the Pendrell Street address.  Did see a Heinrich book - with with "Winter" in title (2003) (not "Ravens in Winter") at Book Warehouse, and may pick that up tomorrow, though was looking for the newest one ("The Snoring Bird" I believe).  That's interesting -- about area of Mt. St. Helens, bodily functions etc -- that HTSITW book sounds like a famous title I'd heard years ago, but didn't realize that was his at the time I got the Nabokov's Butterflies!


Title: Re: Not literary but I am using a book so....
Post by: teddy174c on June 17, 2007, 01:07:21 AM
Still reading Proust slowly and mindfully. But the big excitement of my week was knitting my first sock.

Everyone made turning a heel sound so dreadfully difficult. I faced doing so with the trepidation I felt going into childbirth.

I followed the instructions....they weren't difficult....and turned the prettiest little heel you've ever seen.

I rewarded myself with a gorgeous skein of Opal sock yarn.

Now it's back to the needles.....

I am beginning to feel the same way some gun nuts feel. The only way you'll ever get my double points away from me is by prying them out of my cold, dead hands.

There is poetry in your knitting Furphy.  (I once learned just the basic knit stitch and knitted a long pink and white scarf at age ten but never learned how to "cast off" and I guess didn't ask mother for help, so it ended up wrapped up with kneedles in closet for years and I guess finally tossed out.)  Is there a baby on the way somewhere?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 17, 2007, 01:12:48 AM
Bo -- just realized - Pyle just mentioned the bodily functions in the woods book -- didn't write it ..




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 17, 2007, 02:00:30 AM
Teddy the 2003 book would be "Winter World" about Animal survival.Its pretty good but"Ravens in Winter" is one of Heinrich's classics.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 17, 2007, 08:32:40 AM
Quote
Pyle just mentioned the bodily functions in the woods book...
Pyle?  Really?  If anyone should write about bodily functions in the woods it's someone named Pyle.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 17, 2007, 09:20:31 AM
Teddy the 2003 book would be "Winter World" about Animal survival.Its pretty good but"Ravens in Winter" is one of Heinrich's classics.

Thanks Bo -- that was it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 17, 2007, 09:21:58 AM
Quote
Pyle just mentioned the bodily functions in the woods book...
Pyle?  Really?  If anyone should write about bodily functions in the woods it's someone named Pyle.

Whiskey -- ha!  (Actually - that thought rippled under the surface of my consciousness and now wish I'd snagged it before you did ..)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 17, 2007, 10:24:07 AM
teddy174c    Reply #399

I hadn't imagined, you mean that you have never read any of the great works of Gunther Grass?

Now, I'm rather sorry that I could not send but of course, you must have seen, the photo of his parents at the top of the article in your copy of The New Yorker. What struck me about their appearance was that one could not casually say with any certainty  what their "origins", a thing about which the administration in their time was fanatic about, and of course if certificates bore out apparent information  approvable there was absolutely no doubt that Gunter would have gone when called up. I can say that since many young men, at least a little older than he, were called up from my own home town here in the US, receiving formal notification that it was their duty to respond because they had been born in Germany and therefore as "sons of Germany" must defend the Fatherland. It was on a par of receiving your draft notice to report because your number came up  in the US during the Vietnam war. That succinctly is why no apologies are necessary


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 17, 2007, 11:28:46 AM
Apologies, Madupont, if I incorrectly led you to believe I'd actually read any books by Grass!  One of these days..

This is a link to a family history of my roots, that has now been filled in a bit more.  It has been transcribed from the family biography of George Robinson, Vancouver Island pioneer.  The biographer of GR is descendent Randolph Vickers (my relative, 10 years older than my father, on the Victor Earnest side); the transcriber for on-line perusal, is his daughter, Vicky.  George Robinson is my great-great grandfather - my father's mother's mothers's father.  My father's mother's mother (his grandmother in fact) was Amanda, daughter of George Robinson, sister of Victor Ernest. 

http://www.crunchers.bc.ca/robinson/index.html


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 17, 2007, 12:32:46 PM
Speaking of family -- Happy Father's Day to all fathers hereabouts!

(I'm going up to visit mine shortly ..)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 17, 2007, 12:54:44 PM
teddy174c re:#410

After quick perusal, with that particular  background, you will love the naval history aspects of Crab-walk; that's the alternate chapter story,computer on the other.


  re: #399 quote

"...just how, at the age of 15 through 17, from the time he joined up to the time he miraculously escaped death as the Soviets advanced and the villages burned, he didn't ponder at all Hitler's screaming aggression..."    I think he "miraculously escaped death" because he was to survive, as readily evident in all of his novels about the characteristics common to German civilization as well as its incivility and uncivilized Spasms that become rationalized as only natural in the face of economic events which inspire mad conquest of  resources  for the well-being of the "volks" just like us.

Having known other survivors of the conquest of Berlin by the Mongol advance of the Red Army, it certainly can be done by ordinary civilian women living in those huge apartment blocks who later came to the US and worked in slaughter house tanneries( I have to giggle here because of course the owner was a Jewish friend of mine).

Age 15 through 17 is a bit young don't you think when we don't even do that here (yet!) although we do go into the high-schools and set up card tables at least twice a month to recruit  those susceptibles who want to own their very own video-game devices/players.

Succinctly, this was possible because of the existence of the Hitler Jugend (there was also a girls division for "patriotic" meaningfulness, involving maedchen ,but the exact title is not retained in my memory), one of whose members showed me clearly how he survived winter in a  local US bund-camp, by looking up the location on a map hanging on the wall of his parents' local German gauleiter's office, while he was home on a trip to visit his parents at sometime back in the 1960s.

These groups had been instituted early on in the school system, to gently dislodge school children from loyalty to their families in order to catch any ambivalence or unpatriotic political positions expressed at home. When children were rewarded by their peers' approval, regimentation of attitude was pretty simple with a school-teacher looking on and taking note, recording anything noteworthy that she could manage to extract from her(or, his) young charges.  It's just an early version of tapping the phones and skimming the spinning of the internet that we know today. One readily witnesses the peer approval ratings in various fora over the past "few?" years. Often expressed by the same nasty little "South Park" critter mentality that even Orson Welles was not capable of inventing. Once we finally acquired our very own Leader "screaming aggression".



"about his need to apologize"   It was the  currently self-righteous German public who demanded an apology from him, when some news item based on past records hit the newspapers and the internet, and this was comparable to an attitude in Europe and here that pretended to be aghast and critical when learning the same about current Pope Benedict who served actually at that early age given above because an aged Hitler was by that point at the end of the war calling up for school-boys( just as Napoleon had), who were in fact tiny little kids somewhat emaciated by the food-rationing but who could handle the ack-ack guns to bring down air-craft. Photographs show Hitler "reviewing" them and patting them on the shoulder.

The public attitude was the consequence of a New Perspective adopted in Germany, in which Germans are now criticizing the American and particularly English bombardments that caused the fire-storms in Dresden and Hamburg, on the thesis that keeping quiet for a couple of generations  and more was from intense guilt after the fact which had not allowed Germans to overcome equally intense suffering experienced by witnessing the destruction of the above two cities .  ( I believe Sebald first began to publish about this trend, because he didn't even really know his origins to start with and ended up teaching in Manchester, England when memories began to surface and where he died in an automobile accident just a few years ago.)

In other words, these conflicted emotions are not only a part of the present day German psychology but I first heard about the "German suffering" in the US, from a student of Bharati Blaise Mukerjee, who took me to see her at a point when he was very annoyed about my "Jewish" literary studies as a basis of analogs in poetry, since I was reading them in public and publishing them sporadically in the Underground Press. (She was teaching epic poetry at the time.)  Since her student was born at Hamburg and his mother had taken her children out of the city before the bombardment, he talked angrily about the fire-bombing, in a way perhaps not emotionally accessible to those of us just a bit slightly older than himself who could not feel too sympathetic toward those who had destroyed many another European city; which of course had already started in the Thirties in Spain at Guernica.

The upshot in the US was when I gradually came to know that the justification stance was propagandizing an Aryan Supremacist movement in the Northwestern regional United States, which picked up more membership in the Southwestern states as well. It was not until quite recently that the phenomenon picked up steam in more Western Germany itself which involves a certain amount of anti-Americanism just as it certainly also does in the US.

So, no, I don't really think nor would even imagine that Grass is part of a some far right Western German neo-nazi youth cult. Why? for exactly the reasons expressed in his prior novel,Crab-walk.





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 17, 2007, 01:29:57 PM
Thanks for father's day greetings (I can really use them, being the father of teenagers and early 20somethings) and my very best to others who are fathers.


Title: Pale Fire
Post by: Dzimas on June 18, 2007, 08:13:53 AM
It was a long bus ride between Vilnius and Lviv, so I took Pale Fire along with me to enjoy the ride.  The Polish countryside was a blur as I found myself steeped in the Zemblan world of the good Dr. Kinbote, as he disected the poem of John Shade.  Not sure what to really make of the narrative, but Nabokov sure paints a colorful world.  Stopped off briefly in Zamosc,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamo%C5%9B%C4%87

which seemed to have a bit of a Zemblan air to it.  A Renaissance town dating back to the late 16th century.  It was hard to focus on the more lyrical passages as my wife engaged me in crossword puzzles.  So, I decided to save the body of the book for later.  Will tell more about Lviv later, when I have time to pen some thoughts on this lovely city.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: thanatopsy on June 18, 2007, 08:38:42 AM
Right wing Republican Mike Huckabee objects to  mini skirts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQbKTsb1GZk

Poor guy!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 18, 2007, 09:26:49 AM
teddy174c re:#410

After quick perusal, with that particular  background, you will love the naval history aspects of Crab-walk; that's the alternate chapter story,computer on the other.


Thanks Madupont -- Crab-walk then will be my place to start when I read Grass.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 18, 2007, 09:27:25 AM
Thanks for father's day greetings (I can really use them, being the father of teenagers and early 20somethings) and my very best to others who are fathers.

Hope you had a good one Barton -- !


Title: Re: Pale Fire
Post by: teddy174c on June 18, 2007, 09:34:53 AM
It was a long bus ride between Vilnius and Lviv, so I took Pale Fire along with me to enjoy the ride.  The Polish countryside was a blur as I found myself steeped in the Zemblan world of the good Dr. Kinbote, as he disected the poem of John Shade.  Not sure what to really make of the narrative, but Nabokov sure paints a colorful world.  Stopped off briefly in Zamosc,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamo%C5%9B%C4%87

which seemed to have a bit of a Zemblan air to it.  A Renaissance town dating back to the late 16th century.  It was hard to focus on the more lyrical passages as my wife engaged me in crossword puzzles.  So, I decided to save the body of the book for later.  Will tell more about Lviv later, when I have time to pen some thoughts on this lovely city.

Thanks for link to Zamosc, Dzimas.  What a terrible history / brave people through WWII when it was to be called "Himmlerland" (or whatever name that was).

So glad you're reading PF -- what a great book to read on a train come to think of it, in those, vaguely Zemblan, parts, as you note.

Did you read the notes as you went through the Foreword or did you skip and just read the Foreword straight through?  (I'll guess: read straight through -- with wife nudging for crossword advice, you wouldn't have advanced much beyond page 2 at the Boyd-recommended rate/style).


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 18, 2007, 09:39:31 AM
Right wing Republican Mike Huckabee objects to  mini skirts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQbKTsb1GZk

Poor guy!

Enjoyed that clip.  Yeah -- that's got to be a # top priority issue for any serious candidate to wrestle with.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 18, 2007, 12:34:31 PM
Dzimas writes:

"It was a long bus ride between Vilnius and Lviv, so I took Pale Fire along with me to enjoy the ride.  The Polish countryside was a blur as I found myself steeped in the Zemblan world of the good Dr. Kinbote, as he disected the poem of John Shade.  Not sure what to really make of the narrative, but Nabokov sure paints a colorful world.  Stopped off briefly in Zamosc...."

I drove to Home Depot to buy some cement bricks.  While waiting at a light, I perused a flyer full of coupons for Arby's.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 18, 2007, 01:49:59 PM
Dzimas,

You have no idea how many names I recognized on the lists of historic names, and on the map as well, as the familiar names of people that I went to school with as a young person, or people I've met in the last decade through my son.

Here's a film that I'm sure you are familiar with but if not...

Die Geduld der Rosa Luxemburg (1986), in German & Polish, Directed by Margarethe von Trotta. IMDB link

The film, which stars Barbara Sukowa as Luxemburg was the winner of the Best Actress Award at the Cannes Film Festival.


Title: Pale Fire
Post by: Dzimas on June 19, 2007, 12:06:55 AM
I skipped to the notes, teddy, as Kinbote recommended, and read the poem afterward, leafing through the notes for some of the more unsual references.  It was interesting the way he contrasted the Soviet repression with Zembla with the way he believed Shade's wife repressed him.  Reminded me a little of An Invitation to a Beheading.  I never know what to make of Nabokov's narrators.  He seems to have great fun with the idea of multiple interpretations.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 19, 2007, 12:29:42 AM
http://www.niupress.niu.edu/niupress/scripts/book/bookResults.asp?ID=405

Table of Contents
Introduction
1—Historical Background—Poles and Jews to the 1850s
2—The Winds of Change, 1856-1863
3—Defeat, Development, Recovery, 1864-1880
4—Traumatic Years, 1881-1882
5—Beginnings of Modern Polish Antisemitism, 1883-1892
6—Progress and Reaction, 1893-1903
7—Revolution, 1904-1906
8—Breakdown, 1907-1914
Conclustion—Polish-Jewish Relations in European Context
Notes
Select Bibliography
Index

ALSO: Astoundingly many books at this site,Northern Illinois Univ. Press,
that deal with Russian and Soviet cultural history


Title: Lviv
Post by: Dzimas on June 19, 2007, 12:39:22 AM
Lviv may not have been as exciting as a trip to Home Depot, but it had its moments.  What struck me the most about Lviv was the lack of any visible water source.  Apparently, it was settled more for strategic reasons than anything else and water remains a relatively scarce commodity, with rationing taking place in a city of approximately 1 million people.  Lviv dates back to the Gothic period but is most famous for its Renaissance square, which is delightful to walk on a hot summer day.  An imposing city hall fill the center space with fountains dedicated to Diana and Neptune and two others at the corners.  You can readily see the confluence of cultures in the various quarters.  Sadly, the Jewish influence has been virtually obliterated.  I was drawn to the Armenian church with its brightly painted celings, including an interesting array of constellations in one of the vaults.  The church has a strong Byzantine feel, but dates from the later Renaissance period.  Gypsies accost tourists as they enter.  One woman using her baby literally as a wedge to try to squeeze me against the wall to pry some money from me.  My wife had the greevnas.  I finally managed to break free of her.  Part of the castle wall remains around the city.  The Planning Institute has adopted the spaces along the gallery, where we visited and had a long chat with the preservation department.  The head of the department had to been to America in the last couple of years, so he was telling me of his travels after the presentation of their projects.  A lot of work going on in Lviv.  The city center is under UNESCO protection, but the grand Secession part of the city, built during the Austro-Hungarian period, is pretty much being left up to the devices of the developers, who are turning the buildings into grand hotels and casinos and shopping malls.  Everywhere you can find little gambling halls with electronic games, as you can through many Eastern European countries.  Gold coins with little happy faces, which don't seem so happy after you have been fleeced. We found a nice little coffee shop that billed itself as a "World of Coffee," and had an astounding array of roasted beans on display.  The coffee was excellent and we sampled the delicious pastries.  An large hill rises behind the city, where a castle once stood.  Only one remnant of a wall remains, but you can climb to the top and get a panoramic view of the city that stretches out in all directions, broken up by various parks.  You could see some rolling hills in the distance, but Ukraine pretty much looks like a Plains state. The city cementery is renown for its mausoleums and we had a guided tour through it, finding out more than we needed to know about the various leading lights of the city ove the centuries.  One of the more interesting stories was that of two mathematicians who liked to challenge each other to solving equations over coffee.  The only problem was that they wrote out their answers on napkins which the waiter usually threw away.  Finally, the wife of one of them gave them a notebook to record their numerical flights of fancy in a book that was preserved as the "Shkotska book" or "Scottish book," since the cafe was known as the Scottish Coffee Shop.  Unfortunately, the two mathematicians weren't buried together to continue their games in the after life.  Banakh was the more famous of the two.  Unfortunately, the coffee shop no longer exists as well.  We stayed at the George Hotel, with a relief of St. George slaying the drag in the pediment of the roof.  Marvelous interior stair hall, with bright blue vaulted ceilings  Fortunately, the developers haven't gotten hold of the building yet, so a night's lodging remains reasonable, if you don't mind sharing a hallway bath.  Breakfast is served in the "Oriental Room," repleat with painted Chinese murals on the walls.  Our time was short, but sweet.  Found some beautiful stamps in a postal kiosk to commemorate the trip.


Title: Re: Pale Fire
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 19, 2007, 12:29:51 PM
It was a long bus ride between Vilnius and Lviv, so I took Pale Fire along with me to enjoy the ride.  The Polish countryside was a blur as I found myself steeped in the Zemblan world of the good Dr. Kinbote, as he disected the poem of John Shade.  Not sure what to really make of the narrative, but Nabokov sure paints a colorful world.  Stopped off briefly in Zamosc,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamo%C5%9B%C4%87

which seemed to have a bit of a Zemblan air to it.  A Renaissance town dating back to the late 16th century.  It was hard to focus on the more lyrical passages as my wife engaged me in crossword puzzles.  So, I decided to save the body of the book for later.  Will tell more about Lviv later, when I have time to pen some thoughts on this lovely city.
Of course, as my wife would note, travelling from Vilno to Lviv should take you from Poland to Poland....

If I recall aright, Zamosc played a significant role in The Deluge.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 19, 2007, 12:39:30 PM
Quote
I skipped to the notes, teddy, as Kinbote recommended, and read the poem afterward, leafing through the notes for some of the more unsual references.
As much as I esteem teddy, I note you are following the advice of a raving lunatic.  The poem is a necessary part of the book, and should be read before assaying the notes.  Otherwise, you will not get the disconnect between the poem (reality) and the notes (lunacy) that you should get.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 19, 2007, 12:46:51 PM
That's the whole point...following the advice of a lunatic. Read the notes first, following the trail Kinbote leads.  Then read the poem, then the poem along with the notes. 

Kinbote's (or Shade's?) lunacy is the clue to what's really going on in the book.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 19, 2007, 01:25:40 PM
That's the whole point...following the advice of a lunatic. Read the notes first, following the trail Kinbote leads.  Then read the poem, then the poem along with the notes. 

Kinbote's (or Shade's?) lunacy is the clue to what's really going on in the book.
He also suggests buying two copies of the book.  Did you do that?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 19, 2007, 02:39:06 PM
LOL...two copies...no.  But much of Nabokov's work seems to be about the division that is found in Russian literature.  In his commentary on  Russian Literature, he speaks at length of the effect of the Europeanization of Russian culture.  Russian aristocrats did not even allow their children to speak Russian.  Nabokov learned to write and speak in English before he spoke in Russian.  The Russian traditions and language were looked upon as backward, certainly inferior to the French or other European. He writes about it on a more personal level in Speak, Memory.  Nabokov's Uncle Ruka spoke in a "fastidious combination of French, English, and Italian, all of which he spoke with vastly more ease than he did his native tongue.  When he resorted to Russian, it was invariably to misuse or garble some extremely idiomatic or even folksly expression, as when he would say at table with a sudden sigh: 'Je suis triste et seul comme une bylinka v pole....'"

It seems to me that this split plays an important role in Pale Fire.....the bumbling deposed King tries to make sense of the Professor Poet.  (Although, I tend to think that Kinbote and Shade are one and the same....which would further emphasis the idea of the Euro/Russian split.   


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 19, 2007, 03:07:46 PM
Lhoffman re:#429

"Russian aristocrats did not even allow their children to speak Russian."

Wasn't this exactly what caused a problem for Irene Nemirovksy? Sad to say. As a result, she did not perceive herself as she was being perceived. What had seemed like a haven in Paris did not take into account the radicalization of the police employed as the Right wing Nationalist movement increased among the French by the time that she was living there. 

This meant that she was unknowingly not in the same status as a White Russian for instance who was a doorman, a waiter, or a musician in a Parisian restaurant, although the object of the eventual occupying forces was to resolve in some way any one in residence who had arrived from "the East".

Presently, we have the same kind of folks resenting immigration here despite knowing the causes, but they like to argue anti-immigration in that forum here anyway.  Live and learn.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 19, 2007, 04:00:03 PM
Nimirovsky and Vladimir's brother Sergei Nabokov, as well.  But I think there is rather a disconnect in your citing these as examplars in the current immigration debate.  You may take the moral argument that immigrants have a right to come to America to make a better life for themselves and their families.  But I don't  think most of the immigrants who are the center of the current debate can be equated with the wealthy intellectuals who were forced to flee Russia in the early 1900's.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on June 19, 2007, 04:11:28 PM
Quote
I skipped to the notes, teddy, as Kinbote recommended, and read the poem afterward, leafing through the notes for some of the more unsual references.
As much as I esteem teddy, I note you are following the advice of a raving lunatic.  The poem is a necessary part of the book, and should be read before assaying the notes.  Otherwise, you will not get the disconnect between the poem (reality) and the notes (lunacy) that you should get.

I picked up the disconnect just in the passages the "raving lunatic" cited, and read the poem afterward.  But what is reality in this case?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on June 19, 2007, 04:13:14 PM
Of course, as my wife would note, travelling from Vilno to Lviv should take you from Poland to Poland....

Actually, the charter for Zamosc was signed in Vilnius, and Lviv predates Polish rule. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 19, 2007, 04:29:19 PM
Lhoffman


My point was that ,
"wealthy intellectuals who were forced to flee Russia in the early 1900's. ",  were in some cases, as was Irene Nemirovsky's, going from the frying pan into the fire.   

The attitude of those who choose to round them up remains the same.

Her difficulty arose from being acceptable and respectable to the Czar's court, and she perceived herself in that way because of the extensive education, some of which was language, but following emigration there was the virtue of having acquired the protocol at well that prevailed at court.

The first time I felt that way about what was an old familiar story was when I perused the Nicholas and Alexandra exhibit at the Riverfront Museum in Wilmington, Delaware.   All the oddities and tschotschkes in the progression through the rooms lead to the darkened exit where the execution in the cellar is portrayed.

Which is what makes her deportation and death comparable, in some way, as tragic, as the death of Anastasia
 
 
 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 19, 2007, 05:14:34 PM
Which is why you cannot equate Nimerovsky with the current immigration debate.  I suspect that if immigrants were perceived as being educated, speaking our language and understanding the protocols of our society, that there would be no debate at all.  In fact, I know this to be true, as I live quite close to the Canadian border....not a lot of debate going on about "illegal" Canadians here. 

It's not about immigration per se....it's all about the dollar.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 19, 2007, 07:32:47 PM
Quote
Latest Member: martinbeck3
We do have a search feature, right?


Title: Re: Lviv
Post by: teddy174c on June 19, 2007, 11:49:56 PM
Lviv may not have been as exciting as a trip to Home Depot, but it had its moments...  Gypsies accost tourists as they enter.  One woman using her baby literally as a wedge to try to squeeze me against the wall to pry some money from me.  My wife had the greevnas.  I finally managed to break free of her.  Part of the castle wall remains around the city.  The Planning Institute has adopted the spaces along the gallery, where we visited and had a long chat with the preservation department.  Gold coins with little happy faces, which don't seem so happy after you have been fleeced. We found a nice little coffee shop that billed itself as a "World of Coffee," and had an astounding array of roasted beans on display.  The coffee was excellent and we sampled the delicious pastries.  An large hill rises behind the city, where a castle once stood.  Only one remnant of a wall remains, but you can climb to the top and get a panoramic view of the city that stretches out in all directions, broken up by various parks.  You could see some rolling hills in the distance, but Ukraine pretty much looks like a Plains state. The city cementery is renown for its mausoleums and we had a guided tour through it, finding out more than we needed to know about the various leading lights of the city ove the centuries.  One of the more interesting stories was that of two mathematicians who liked to challenge each other to solving equations over coffee.  The only problem was that they wrote out their answers on napkins which the waiter usually threw away.  Finally, the wife of one of them gave them a notebook to record their numerical flights of fancy in a book that was preserved as the "Shkotska book" or "Scottish book," since the cafe was known as the Scottish Coffee Shop.  Unfortunately, the two mathematicians weren't buried together to continue their games in the after life.  Banakh was the more famous of the two.  Unfortunately, the coffee shop no longer exists as well.  We stayed at the George Hotel, with a relief of St. George slaying the drag in the pediment of the roof.  Marvelous interior stair hall, with bright blue vaulted ceilings  Fortunately, the developers haven't gotten hold of the building yet, so a night's lodging remains reasonable, if you don't mind sharing a hallway bath.  Breakfast is served in the "Oriental Room," repleat with painted Chinese murals on the walls.  Our time was short, but sweet.  Found some beautiful stamps in a postal kiosk to commemorate the trip.

Thank you so much for this Dzimas.  What a marvelous trip. 

Re the gypsies -- fascinating article in New Yorker about gypsies about a year ago -- the writer lived with a group of gypsies for awhile.  Politically incorrect though it may be to say -- begging / stealing is part of the culture it would seem.  Literacy is not.  (I have a wonderful lesbian ex-boss colleague who chided an employee once for using the term "gypped" to mean "screwed money-wise" -- which chiding seems kind of stupid in restrospect as 1) the woman hadn't really been alluding to gypsies, and 2) had she been so, she would have been for the most part accurate). That's not to say that all folks of gypsey descent are thieves -- only that it's stupid to try to sweep away plain facts of the (rather fascinating if a tad disturbing) culture.

Anyway -- thoroughly enjoyed reading about this this morning before work, especialy the breakfast, which I imagined..  Are you heading to Scotland now?




Title: Re: Pale Fire
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 12:02:53 AM
I skipped to the notes, teddy, as Kinbote recommended, and read the poem afterward, leafing through the notes for some of the more unsual references.  It was interesting the way he contrasted the Soviet repression with Zembla with the way he believed Shade's wife repressed him.  Reminded me a little of An Invitation to a Beheading.  I never know what to make of Nabokov's narrators.  He seems to have great fun with the idea of multiple interpretations.

Dzimas -- heartening to hear.  That's an interesting pinpoint observation re Kinbote's comparing Sybil to the Soviets! (I hadn't recalled that as I expect I haven't remembered many, many things.)

As Brian Boyd notes in "Nabokov's Pale Fire - the Magic of Artistic Discovery" -- "If we have followed this trail to the end, we know to trust Nabokov; we know to follow our curiosity, even when it can lead at times to uncertainty and frustration, as well as to the surprise of discovery.  I first followed this particular path when I was sixteen years old and ever since have let Nabokov lead me to discoveries more rewarding than we have any right to expect.  Nabokov knows that not every reader will trust him enough to follow this trail.  [ie certain lawyers who shall remain nameless. teddy].  Those who think he aims only to tease, to taunt, to prove his own superiority, will of course resist starting up the track at all.  But Nabokov knows that life also offers too many simultaneous prompts to our curiosity for us to be able to follow them: what's the name of that flower? what's this really made of?  how does this work? why does that happen? Life can be frustrating, bombard us with what we do not know, so that we can give up on curiosity, unable to choose where to turn next, but Nabokov suggests that not to trust in our curiosity at all, not to follow any trail, is the surest way of missing out on life's limitless surprises ..."



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 12:18:03 AM
Quote
I skipped to the notes, teddy, as Kinbote recommended, and read the poem afterward, leafing through the notes for some of the more unsual references.
As much as I esteem teddy, I note you are following the advice of a raving lunatic.  The poem is a necessary part of the book, and should be read before assaying the notes.  Otherwise, you will not get the disconnect between the poem (reality) and the notes (lunacy) that you should get.

Whiskey -- a clever, lawyerly point.  But don't you think a person who's read the notes and notes within the notes pointed to in the Foreword, arrives at the Poem (finally), infinitely greater prepared to fully appreciate that disconnect?  Any reasonably responsible reader would naturally follow the alluded to ("see my note") note within the commentary as it arrives.  Having been taken for longer detours than expected, he might, by the second or third note, begin to feel he's being had by Kinbote, and might refuse to follow the last ones -- but, really, how could he think that when such treasure troves are offered up in the notes -- a sneak preview in a way of "things to come" that enrich his stock of awareness at an early stage.  The only thing I might concede to is -- if it's too difficult to read the notes, if a person is strapped for time, or having a tough time, he might be forgiven for plowing straight ahead on the first read of PF, but should read it properly the second time around.


And re: the raving lunatic -- I'm look at the Foreword now and -- I may be wrong because we've discussed this already at great length in the PF forum -- but doesn't Kinbote suggest reading and rereading the whole commentary first -- not just the notes in the foreword (which, granted, lead to more commentary notes that add up to a sizable chunk of the commentary), as I think I'd misremembered him saying?    And I guess it was Nabokov himself, not Kinbote, who somewhere joked about a person needing an extra finger or two to be able to hold the pages of all the notes leading to other notes within the Commentary.  I may be wrong, and somewhere Kinbote may say that..



Title: Re: Canadian invasion
Post by: Furphy on June 20, 2007, 12:22:51 AM
Odd that. And yet the Canadians are so seldom identified with graffiti, gangs, a high drop out rate and boom box cars.

You don't seem to give much weight to "the protocols of our society". But I'd so like to go into my kitchen without hearing the thudding music from the illegal inlaw unit built so that its wall adjoins ours.

No, I didn't appreciate these people using a jack hammer on their foundations during my Thanksgiving lunch. And I'll never forget having to spend long days riding a bus up and down the peninsula when I had been diagnosed with cancer, was sick from chemotherapy and would have liked to be at home having a nap. But God forbid that the neighbors should have stopped hammering and pounding for one minute during the two years they spent building the illegal inlaw unit.

It isn't always race. And it isn't always money. Sometimes real bad manners will earn a cultural group alot of animus.




Which is why you cannot equate Nimerovsky with the current immigration debate.  I suspect that if immigrants were perceived as being educated, speaking our language and understanding the protocols of our society, that there would be no debate at all.  In fact, I know this to be true, as I live quite close to the Canadian border....not a lot of debate going on about "illegal" Canadians here. 

It's not about immigration per se....it's all about the dollar.




Title: Re: Lviv
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 12:25:34 AM
begging / stealing is part of the culture it would seem.  Literacy is not.  (I have a wonderful lesbian ex-boss colleague who chided an employee once for using the term "gypped" to mean "screwed money-wise" -- which chiding seems kind of stupid in restrospect as 1) the woman hadn't really been alluding to gypsies, and 2) had she been so, she would have been for the most part accurate). That's not to say that all folks of gypsey descent are thieves -- only that it's stupid to try to sweep away plain facts of the (rather fascinating if a tad disturbing) culture."

It occurs to me that a line of reasoning like mine above is dangerous as can lead to some horrible things -- and have lead to horrible things in history.  Because such attitudes lead to justification for acts of unspeakable brutality upon people.  That's not my intent for the gypsies obviously -- (they've already had that).  


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 12:26:51 AM
That's the whole point...following the advice of a lunatic. Read the notes first, following the trail Kinbote leads.  Then read the poem, then the poem along with the notes. 

Kinbote's (or Shade's?) lunacy is the clue to what's really going on in the book.

Lhoffman -- nicely said!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 12:35:19 AM
LOL...two copies...no.  But much of Nabokov's work seems to be about the division that is found in Russian literature.  In his commentary on  Russian Literature, he speaks at length of the effect of the Europeanization of Russian culture.  Russian aristocrats did not even allow their children to speak Russian.  Nabokov learned to write and speak in English before he spoke in Russian.  The Russian traditions and language were looked upon as backward, certainly inferior to the French or other European. He writes about it on a more personal level in Speak, Memory.  Nabokov's Uncle Ruka spoke in a "fastidious combination of French, English, and Italian, all of which he spoke with vastly more ease than he did his native tongue.  When he resorted to Russian, it was invariably to misuse or garble some extremely idiomatic or even folksly expression, as when he would say at table with a sudden sigh: 'Je suis triste et seul comme une bylinka v pole....'"

It seems to me that this split plays an important role in Pale Fire.....the bumbling deposed King tries to make sense of the Professor Poet.  (Although, I tend to think that Kinbote and Shade are one and the same....which would further emphasis the idea of the Euro/Russian split.   "abokov's Uncle Ruka spoke in a "fastidious combination of French, English, and Italian, " -- which reminds me somewhat of Humbert Humbert's accent -- or similar to it anyway.


LHoffman -- This is very interesting -- Nabokov did have an English and a French governness.  But he spoke all his life of never achieving in English what he did in Russian, writing-wise (though at the end, he may have admitted the reverse ended up being in fact true).  He spoke of that "Russian throb" of sensibility.  He admired Tolstoy, Pushkin, Chekhov, Bely. 


Title: Lviv
Post by: Dzimas on June 20, 2007, 12:39:12 AM
I had a horrible experience at the Belarussian border once, furphy, but I don't hold it against Belarussians in general.  Have no bad feelings toward the Roma either.  Culturally, they have given much to Europe, including Flamenco music and dance.  I just found it odd that this particular woman would use her baby as a wedge, placing the baby between us as she pushed me toward a wall, to try to pry some money out of me.

Glad you enjoyed the piece, teddy.  One of the other things that struck me about Lviv was the integrated cemetery -- Catholic, Orthodox, Uniate, Soviet mausoleums and headstones all mixed together, resulting in some very interesting juxtapositions.  There is a strong Polish influence, as there is in Vilnius, but over 80% of Lvivians are Ukranians and many of them practice a hybrid Orthodox- Catholic religion or Ukranian Uniate religion.  We got a chance to travel around the region as well, noting the fascinating wood Uniate churches that were designed to recall boats, such as this one,

http://brama.com/travel/pics/diary8.jpg

From someone else's travel diary, not mine.


Title: Pale Fire
Post by: Dzimas on June 20, 2007, 12:49:16 AM
I just assumed Kinbote was making all that stuff about Zembla up as he searched for personal references in Shade's poem, as Zembla seemed to be more a state of mind.  Although, there apparently was a department of Zemblan studies at the university he taught at.  I was led to believe, he simply stole the poem after the incident that took place on the lawn, which was why the scholars were after him.  As in Lolita, one is led on merry chases, including that of the deposed king through his escape from Zembla, with many amusing scenes.  Poor Gradus comes across as Nabokov's vision of a crude proto-Soviet, not much unlike Bulgakov's Poligraph Poligraphovic in The Heart of a Dog.  The pair of spies seem like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern as they search through the castle for the royal treasure.  It was also interesting to read Kinbote's views on religion and how these views were contrasted with Shade's apparent atheism.  Nabokov doesn't strike me as a religious man, so I assumed these traits were ones he chose to give Kinbote, a displaced aristocrat.  Seemed like Zembla was some cross between Slavic and German culture in Kinbote's mind.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Detective_Winslow on June 20, 2007, 12:50:09 AM
Is it true that you shit your pants the moment you die?


Title: Re: Canadian invasion
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 12:53:57 AM
Odd that. And yet the Canadians are so seldom identified with graffiti, gangs, a high drop out rate and boom box cars.

You don't seem to give much weight to "the protocols of our society". But I'd so like to go into my kitchen without hearing the thudding music from the illegal inlaw unit built so that its wall adjoins ours.

No, I didn't appreciate these people using a jack hammer on their foundations during my Thanksgiving lunch. And I'll never forget having to spend long days riding a bus up and down the peninsula when I had been diagnosed with cancer, was sick from chemotherapy and would have liked to be at home having a nap. But God forbid that the neighbors should have stopped hammering and pounding for one minute during the two years they spent building the illegal inlaw unit.

It isn't always race. And it isn't always money. Sometimes real bad manners will earn a cultural group alot of animus.


[/quote]

Furphy,

I have a neighbour above me who does some kind of migraine inducing ball bouncing exercise routine for hours most evenings, weekends and so on -- clueless re how this might affect person (ie me) below.  I've mentioned to landlord who tells me he's a "nice guy who works out".  A group of young twenty-somethings was finally evicted a couple of months ago, for endless partying, shouting, swearing, and after smarmily apologing to neighbour who asked them to pipe down at 3:00 in the morning because he had to go to work the next day, continuing on undaunted (until finally evicted) --

Loud cell phone users shout their conversations completely unselfconsciously on daily commutes, presuming I guess that all those within a 60 foot radius are glad to be held hostage to their stupid conversations, and so on, and so on.  I doubt you'd be much more impressed here.  (Sorry if I sound bitter.)



Title: Re: Lviv
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 01:06:15 AM
I had a horrible experience at the Belarussian border once, furphy, but I don't hold it against Belarussians in general.  Have no bad feelings toward the Roma either.  Culturally, they have given much to Europe, including Flamenco music and dance.  I just found it odd that this particular woman would use her baby as a wedge, placing the baby between us as she pushed me toward a wall, to try to pry some money out of me.

Glad you enjoyed the piece, teddy.  One of the other things that struck me about Lviv was the integrated cemetery -- Catholic, Orthodox, Uniate, Soviet mausoleums and headstones all mixed together, resulting in some very interesting juxtapositions.  There is a strong Polish influence, as there is in Vilnius, but over 80% of Lvivians are Ukranians and many of them practice a hybrid Orthodox- Catholic religion or Ukranian Uniate religion.  We got a chance to travel around the region as well, noting the fascinating wood Uniate churches that were designed to recall boats, such as this one,

http://brama.com/travel/pics/diary8.jpg

From someone else's travel diary, not mine.

Beautiful wood church, Dzimas - thanks.  I've never even heard of the Uniate religion.  Before ever going to such a place I'd have to research it so as to be able to halfways appreciate what I was seeing.


Title: Re: Pale Fire
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 01:13:57 AM
I just assumed Kinbote was making all that stuff about Zembla up as he searched for personal references in Shade's poem, as Zembla seemed to be more a state of mind.  Although, there apparently was a department of Zemblan studies at the university he taught at.  I was led to believe, he simply stole the poem after the incident that took place on the lawn, which was why the scholars were after him.  As in Lolita, one is led on merry chases, including that of the deposed king through his escape from Zembla, with many amusing scenes.  Poor Gradus comes across as Nabokov's vision of a crude proto-Soviet, not much unlike Bulgakov's Poligraph Poligraphovic in The Heart of a Dog.  The pair of spies seem like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern as they search through the castle for the royal treasure.  It was also interesting to read Kinbote's views on religion and how these views were contrasted with Shade's apparent atheism.  Nabokov doesn't strike me as a religious man, so I assumed these traits were ones he chose to give Kinbote, a displaced aristocrat.  Seemed like Zembla was some cross between Slavic and German culture in Kinbote's mind.

Dzimas,

The part of the book I found most confounding is that "connective part" - in New Wye - the Kinbote/Botkin relationship, the reference to the Great Beaver, the picture of King Charles -- if you want to look at all of Zembla as a figment of Kinbote/Botkin's imagination, then these things make it difficult -- where does "reality" leech into "imagination".  There are all these different theories -- first of all the "Shadeans" believe that Shade makes up Kinbote.  The Kinboteans believe that Kinbote makes up Shade.  Boyd comes around to a "Hazel theory" -- whereby the ghost of Hazel inspires mad lonely Kinbote (lonely, out of place, like herself), to make some sort of symmetry out of his crazy commentary -- by introducing assassin Gradus etc.

Both PF and Lolita, come to think of it, have a foreword that discusses the editing/annotating by strange/less than trustworthy editor, biographer,  of the about to be read book/poem.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 01:24:48 AM
Boyd argues "multiple author" theory -- both Shades (John and Hazel) and Kinbote, have a hand in crafting the Commentary ("synthesis").  In fact he argues that "it is the dead Shade himself who inspires the Gradus story."   Think electricity, glowworms, ghosts .. kindness, symmetry, artistry ..

Just such a mass of treasures in such a slender book.


Title: Pale Fire
Post by: Dzimas on June 20, 2007, 02:00:23 AM
I agree that it is a treasure, teddy.  Certainly many ways to interpret the quixotic relationship between Shade and Kinbote.  But, given the name Shade, I'm tempted to side with the Kinboteans. Seems Hazel is more a foil that Kinbote may have placed between himself and Shade, as he did the staff of the university.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 20, 2007, 02:04:00 AM
I am slowing down on "Where Bigfoot Walks" cause I don't want it to end.It has been a very pleasant surprise of a book.If he is hiking/camping out in the high country or driving from town to town on back roads its very good.From what I read this afternoon when he was in the Trinity Alps."At one point,midly stuck in the snow in the reliable but decidedly not off-road Tempo.I sat and listened to the night.Suddenly I heard a long,falsetto moan followed by yips,both far off and not at all like coyotes.Then it sounded nearer,as I listened intently.I shifted,it stopped;I shifted again,it called.As I moved back and forth,it yipped rapidly.It was the air escaping from the foam of my back seat! I felt like an idiot,but this confirmed how little it takes to make suggestions to the suggestible."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Detective_Winslow on June 20, 2007, 02:07:17 AM
bosox:

Do you jizz in your red stockings?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 20, 2007, 02:28:14 AM
Teddy,did you find a copy of the Pyle/Bigfoot book yet? I heard from Diane by email and she arrived home from the road to find her copy waiting.She has not started yet and I assume she'll be posting in American History soon.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 20, 2007, 02:44:32 AM
dzimas, re:#444

When you get to Scotland, you may discover more of the Romany Chai but don't be surprised if they look like Ellen Barkin. Or, anybody else for that matter. There they are called,"Tinkers".


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 20, 2007, 05:37:52 AM
Quote
he might be forgiven for plowing straight ahead on the first read of PF, but should read it properly the second time around.
Well now, if the point to following the notes is to give you a sneak preview into Kinbote's madness, there's not much point to reading it that way the second time through, now is there?  I believe it is important to have read the poem before reading the Commentary because it gives one a sound grounding in the putative reality of New Wye and the Shades to weigh against the Zemblan narrative.

Of course, my view is the "proper" way to read the book the second time through is from the Index backwards through the references.

By the way, the author of the "run out of fingers" joke is Boyd.

dzimas -

Unless I am mistaken, there is no department of Zemblan studies at the college.  Kinbote is apparently ins a department devoted to Nordic studies of some sort - his department chair's name, which I will not attempt, is apparently Swedish.  There is, however, one scene where Zembla is discussed in the faculty lounge.  It is an interesting scene because, as reported, the faculty not only discusses Zembla as an actual place, Emerald looks up a picture of the deposed King of Zembla in a reference book.  It is a bit of a blow to the "Zembla is immaginary, but the New Wye portions are real" view, since if the New Wye portions are real, so is Zembla.  And if Zembla is not real, Kinbote is also making up at least some of the New Wye stuff.  Of course, the scene comes very late in the book, as Gradus approaches and the New Wye reality and the Zembla madness begins to merge, so perhaps this is a reflection of the looming Gradus.

One of the interesting things about reading the book from the Index backwards is the looming realization that the only New Wye personages in the Index are the Shades ("Shade, Sybil - passim" is my favorite joke in the book) and Vasily Botkin.  Which is particularly nice since a reader may only dimly recall the name being mentioned, and the Index references are not a whole lot of help.


Title: Pale Fire
Post by: Dzimas on June 20, 2007, 05:53:04 AM
Maybe I'm confusing Russian studies with Zemblan studies, but Zembla came up several times in regard to conversations with his colleagues.  Linking the image of the deposed king to himself came up late in the novel, almost as an afterthought.  It seemed like Kinbote now wished to assert himself as King Charles.  Of course, one can go on and on about which part(s) is (are) real and which part(s) is (are) imagined, especially since this is a novel.  I assumed the New Wye depictions to be relatively accurate in this context, while the Zemblan fantasies seemed to be something drawn from Kinbote's sense of alienation.  It is only answered in the end how Kinbote came up with the index cards of the poem, which differs from the explanation given earlier, in which he says that Mrs. Shade had entrusted the original copy to him for editing and publication.  The novel reads fairly straight forward, leading one to initially take the sequence of actions at face value, but of course one can never do that with Nabokov, as he spins his webs of deceits.  Shade however remains periphery to Kinbote, not just from the point of view taken.  I half expected Shade to turn out to be Odon within the context of the story, but then I realized that the whole Zemblan thing was just poppycock, at least as far as it related to Kinbote.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on June 20, 2007, 05:54:51 AM
Anyway, since Kinbote is the narrator, he can add whatever he likes to the narrative to make his case, including weaving Zembla into the context of New Wye.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on June 20, 2007, 06:04:12 AM
When you get to Scotland, you may discover more of the Romany Chai but don't be surprised if they look like Ellen Barkin. Or, anybody else for that matter. There they are called,"Tinkers".

Madupont, it was interesting reading in T.M. Devine's The Scottish Nation: A History, 1700-2000 that a sizable Lithuanian community had settled in Scotland in the late 19th century, but it was quickly absorbed into Scottish society and one is hard pressed to find out much about the workings of this community in its intial period.  Scots are even more well traveled.  Found a remnant of a Scottish community in Narva, Estonia, of all places, where they had initially been invited by Peter the Great.  Scots were also the first to try to establish a link between the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific at the Strait of Darien, now Panama.  This venture apparently bankrupted Scotland, leading to their subsequent annexation into Great Britain in 1704 (as I remember) with the Treaty of Union. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 20, 2007, 06:08:08 AM
Quote
Shade however remains periphery to Kinbote, not just from the point of view taken.
See teddy?  See?  That's what comes of an over emphasis on the notes!  The Shades shoved to the periphery, the madness front and center!

(dzimas - you are being inserted into an ancient battle.  I apologize.  Feel free to ignore.)


Title: Pale Fire
Post by: Dzimas on June 20, 2007, 08:24:25 AM
That's OK.  Each to his or her own interpretation.  I don't see that it matters whether you read the poem before or after the notes, since Kinbote's notes dominate the book.  I suppose by reading the poem first you more quickly dismiss Kinbote as a charlatan, but that doesn't change the fact that it is he who is narrating this story as told through the body of the notes.  Shade comes across as a reasonable fellow.  Made me think of Wallace Stegner for some reason.  God knows why?  I guess it was because I found some common ground in Angle of Repose.


Title: Re: Pale Fire
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 09:33:34 AM
I agree that it is a treasure, teddy.  Certainly many ways to interpret the quixotic relationship between Shade and Kinbote.  But, given the name Shade, I'm tempted to side with the Kinboteans. Seems Hazel is more a foil that Kinbote may have placed between himself and Shade, as he did the staff of the university.

Dzimas -- well your interpretation is as valid as any.  Can you remember how she used to twist words - put second syllable first I think it was and then somewhere Kinbote seems to spew out a word that way?  What's going on there, one might ask.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 09:36:08 AM
Teddy,did you find a copy of the Pyle/Bigfoot book yet? I heard from Diane by email and she arrived home from the road to find her copy waiting.She has not started yet and I assume she'll be posting in American History soon.

Bo- Diane wisely ordered it.  I'm still hoping to actually find a hard/soft copy here in Vancouver somewhere.  It's not in our major chain (Indigo/Chapters), nor did I find it in a Book Warehouse close by.  So, now that you've inspired me again to find, I may on weekend trek over the Lionsgate Bridge to the West-End and Pendrell Street to that used books store you mentioned and -- or, smarter still, call first, and find there.  If not -- the major library ought to have. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 09:47:11 AM
Quote
he might be forgiven for plowing straight ahead on the first read of PF, but should read it properly the second time around.
Well now, if the point to following the notes is to give you a sneak preview into Kinbote's madness, there's not much point to reading it that way the second time through, now is there?  I believe it is important to have read the poem before reading the Commentary because it gives one a sound grounding in the putative reality of New Wye and the Shades to weigh against the Zemblan narrative.

Whiskey - a lawyerly cornering -- if I used the phrase "sneak preview" that was a dumb one, because following the trail to the treasures before reading the poem, enlightens the reader before arrival there -- "sneak preview" hardly does justice to that voyage.  I would say this.  After taking a trip through Kinbote's convoluted mind, interpretrations, to Zembla and back, one is ready to appreciate Shade's New Wye based poem in its full, poignant, epic, grandeur.


"Of course, my view is the "proper" way to read the book the second time through is from the Index backwards through the references."

Now you introduce the Index -- that's meant for third reading!

"By the way, the author of the "run out of fingers" joke is Boyd."

It was Boyd!  Thanks. 

dzimas -

"Unless I am mistaken, there is no department of Zemblan studies at the college.  Kinbote is apparently ins a department devoted to Nordic studies of some sort - his department chair's name, which I will not attempt, is apparently Swedish. "

Natchodag?

My favorite prof. at the college is one Pnin of course -- who we only hear about (being laughed about of course, or put down by Kinbote himself as a "martinet" I believe) and I'm not sure he is ever actually named (his name being described as a sneeze).  However we smile to catch a glimpse of him sitting in his office rather contentedly at some point -- having made it with his little white dog one presumes, to a safe place (if being part of Kinbote's book can be be called a "safe place").




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 09:50:28 AM
I am slowing down on "Where Bigfoot Walks" cause I don't want it to end.It has been a very pleasant surprise of a book.If he is hiking/camping out in the high country or driving from town to town on back roads its very good.From what I read this afternoon when he was in the Trinity Alps."At one point,midly stuck in the snow in the reliable but decidedly not off-road Tempo.I sat and listened to the night.Suddenly I heard a long,falsetto moan followed by yips,both far off and not at all like coyotes.Then it sounded nearer,as I listened intently.I shifted,it stopped;I shifted again,it called.As I moved back and forth,it yipped rapidly.It was the air escaping from the foam of my back seat! I felt like an idiot,but this confirmed how little it takes to make suggestions to the suggestible."

Bo -- Ha!  What a funny story.  Pyle's book  I will definitely hunt for.


Title: Nabokov
Post by: Dzimas on June 20, 2007, 09:53:18 AM
Teddy,

With Nabokov, it seems one has to be cognizant of every word, every turn of phrase, as if trying to unravel some Medieval mystery, as in The Name of the Rose.  Nabokov must have had great fun seeing other persons try to dicipher his novels, as they read like intricate compositions.  I have to wonder how much Pale Fire intertwined with his voluminous study of Eugene Onegin.  


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 09:54:16 AM
Quote
Shade however remains periphery to Kinbote, not just from the point of view taken.
See teddy?  See?  That's what comes of an over emphasis on the notes!  The Shades shoved to the periphery, the madness front and center!

(dzimas - you are being inserted into an ancient battle.  I apologize.  Feel free to ignore.)

Whiskey -- recall that this is just Dzimas's first reading.  The natural evolution for readers is to move from Kinboteanism, to Shadeism at second reading, to multiple authorism on 3rd/4th reading -- the lurch is away from Kinbote at some point, to back to him in a different context (i.e. the guy has help from some Shades) -- if one is a Boydean that is.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 20, 2007, 09:55:19 AM
Anyway, however one approaches it, one of the many, many neat things about Pale Fire is how its structure almost demands that you reread the book as you read it, and consider all sorts of variables and interpretations as you go along.  A passage from the poem may speak of some prosaic event in Shade's life, in the commentary we see Kinbote taking the passage and twisting the reference into some Zemblan shape, while the index adds a startling gloss on the commentary itself, that may bend the whole matter back on New Wye, or off entirely elsewhere.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 20, 2007, 09:58:28 AM
Quote
Shade however remains periphery to Kinbote, not just from the point of view taken.
See teddy?  See?  That's what comes of an over emphasis on the notes!  The Shades shoved to the periphery, the madness front and center!

(dzimas - you are being inserted into an ancient battle.  I apologize.  Feel free to ignore.)

Whiskey -- recall that this is just Dzimas's first reading.  The natural evolution for readers is to move from Kinboteanism, to Shadeism at second reading, to multiple authorism on 3rd/4th reading -- the lurch is away from Kinbote at some point, to back to him in a different context (i.e. the guy has help from some Shades) -- if one is a Boydean that is.


Well, teddy, one thing Kinbote has in common with Humbert Humbert - along with a preference for sexual partners who are not yet entirely ripe - is that they are intoxicating story tellers, and it takes an act of strong reading will to shift your gaze from where they direct it to the underlying story their monstrousness conceals.  The poem Pale Fire helps a reader to do that, and I think reading it first, before the commentary, keeps the Shades at more of a forefront than reading the commentary first, and getting lost in the fireworks display, would.


Title: Re: Nabokov
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 09:59:52 AM
Teddy,

With Nabokov, it seems one has to be cognizant of every word, every turn of phrase, as if trying to unravel some Medieval mystery, as in The Name of the Rose.  Nabokov must have had great fun seeing other persons try to dicipher his novels, as they read like intricate compositions.  I have to wonder how much Pale Fire intertwined with his voluminous study of Eugene Onegin.  

Dzimas -- that's what Nabokov is infamous for, some even have called him "cruel" to the reader.  If I'd read these things about his writing style before I read Lolita, I probably never would have embarked upon any of his books at all -- because not too crazy about Chinese puzzle, challenges, games sort of writing as a rule.  Thus, whenever we get into these discussions about the complexitities and possibilities within a novel such as Pale Fire and I return to the book to read a few lines or paragraphs, the first thing that strikes me is how clear and funny and pleasant and even rather simple to read it it is -- and am surprised and refreshed anew.  

I do think Nabokov probably enjoyed these efforts on the parts of his readers, though, especially when they ventured off his intended path (gently providing a word here or there to steer them .. but never giving away the whole meaning as he did with "The Vane Sisters" -- by the way which may provide clues to this book).


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 10:03:32 AM
Quote
Shade however remains periphery to Kinbote, not just from the point of view taken.
See teddy?  See?  That's what comes of an over emphasis on the notes!  The Shades shoved to the periphery, the madness front and center!

(dzimas - you are being inserted into an ancient battle.  I apologize.  Feel free to ignore.)

Whiskey -- recall that this is just Dzimas's first reading.  The natural evolution for readers is to move from Kinboteanism, to Shadeism at second reading, to multiple authorism on 3rd/4th reading -- the lurch is away from Kinbote at some point, to back to him in a different context (i.e. the guy has help from some Shades) -- if one is a Boydean that is.


Well, teddy, one thing Kinbote has in common with Humbert Humbert - along with a preference for sexual partners who are not yet entirely ripe - is that they are intoxicating story tellers, and it takes an act of strong reading will to shift your gaze from where they direct it to the underlying story their monstrousness conceals.  The poem Pale Fire helps a reader to do that, and I think reading it first, before the commentary, keeps the Shades at more of a forefront than reading the commentary first, and getting lost in the fireworks display, would.

Whiskey -- Well I wouldn't suggest against reading the poem in its entirety first before even starting the foreword.  I would just suggest that after starting the Foreword, you might as well follow the notes as they are placed within it -- the writer put some nice notes there, why not read them?  But no problem -- in fact I'd agree that reading the poem straight through at some point, before during or after would be a good idea to catch its poignancy, rhythm etc, without being jogged off track by Kinbote at least once.  But since Kinbote's commentary is the thing, connecting us with threads back and forth from the poem (which I think he's tinkered with anyway) -- at some point you have to read them together.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on June 20, 2007, 10:04:19 AM
I don't see much relationship between Kinbote and Humbert other than their solitary nature.  I don't even imagine their voices being the same.   There is a deeper struggle going on in the mind of Kinbote, whereas as Humbert was a sanctimonius prig.  I had no empathy at all for Humbert, whereas I find myself having empathy for Kinbote.  He strikes me as one of those Medievalists lost in his anachronistic world.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 10:07:09 AM
Late for work!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 20, 2007, 10:20:58 AM
I don't see much relationship between Kinbote and Humbert other than their solitary nature.  I don't even imagine their voices being the same.   There is a deeper struggle going on in the mind of Kinbote, whereas as Humbert was a sanctimonius prig.  I had no empathy at all for Humbert, whereas I find myself having empathy for Kinbote.  He strikes me as one of those Medievalists lost in his anachronistic world.
Well, I wasn't likening their characters, but their ability to mesmerize with words.  Both Pale Fire and Lolita are sort of like sleight of hand tricks; the Shades and Lolita herself being the cards the narrators do not want us to see being palmed. 

But also in a sense Humbert Humbert and Charles Kinbote do not want us to see themselves, either.  It is pretty obvious with Kinbote - the whole Zemblan story is an exercise in hiding himself, as is the shoving of Botkin down a memory hole.  But Humbert hides himself as well ("Is mask the keyword?")  and part of the joy of Lolita is trying to wrench control away from Humbert so you can stare directly into his loathesome eyes.


Title: Nabokov
Post by: Dzimas on June 20, 2007, 10:39:48 AM
Whiskey, I think more of mirrors or shards of glass than I do masks in reading Nabokov.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 20, 2007, 12:03:21 PM

Don Lord of the Flying Red Horse,Teddy Our Lady of the Aurora Borealis,Whiskey Konfessor of the K/SF,Madupont Lady of the Perpetual Knowledge and all the rest of My Beloved Brethrens and Sistererns!!!! I can´t imagine how I dropped in here,I can´t for the luv of the B.L. see how I navigated these stormy waters and came unto thee!!! This is another proof of the power of the Blooming Lampost.
when I recover from this emoshun I shalt write something mean-in-full.
thine truly
The Apossel
p.s. Avoice Alive!!! Our O.Proffet still profetizing...
Sorry, gotta leave thee ,getting some oxygen to recover .


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 20, 2007, 12:52:12 PM
Will any of you post the link to the yahoo place where Avoice and other distiguished minds post?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 20, 2007, 12:57:47 PM
Will any of you post the link to the yahoo place where Avoice and other distiguished minds post?

Greetings Martin!

(Furphy, might have link to Avoice, Yahoo site..)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on June 22, 2007, 02:26:58 AM
Avoice is registered here as far as I know.  Check the members list.  I don't know that he "profits" anymore except in a lawyerly way. Perhaps the light from the Bloomin Lamp Post dimmed for him and he grew tired of the game.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 22, 2007, 03:28:36 AM
Teddy,I noticed an ad in the NYTimes arts section on thurs for a new Ann Dillard novel.I recall several years ago sending you a link from a Provincetown paper about her living in Wellfleet on the Cape and it appears this novel is about Cape Cod so I hope it is not a departure from her earlier style or a need for money.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 23, 2007, 01:52:26 AM
I was passing my used bookstore today which has been closed for close to two months because the owner Andy had a mild heart attack.After hearing rumors he was selling inventory then that he was coming back he had a lady from Powells books in Portland going over his inventory.So Andy is leaving L.A. and moving to Seattle where his brother is.He told me to take a book as a gift for all the books I've bought from him over the years and I spied on his desk halfway down a pile a small coffee table type book"Lord Rochester's Monkey" by Graham Greene.It's from 1974  but states it was written from 1931-34and is a bio of John Wilmot,the second Earl of Rochester (1647-1680)and from glancing at it quite a rake.Lots of art work and color photos also.I had never heard of the book before.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 23, 2007, 10:17:12 AM
I was passing my used bookstore today which has been closed for close to two months because the owner Andy had a mild heart attack.After hearing rumors he was selling inventory then that he was coming back he had a lady from Powells books in Portland going over his inventory.So Andy is leaving L.A. and moving to Seattle where his brother is.He told me to take a book as a gift for all the books I've bought from him over the years and I spied on his desk halfway down a pile a small coffee table type book"Lord Rochester's Monkey" by Graham Greene.It's from 1974  but states it was written from 1931-34and is a bio of John Wilmot,the second Earl of Rochester (1647-1680)and from glancing at it quite a rake.Lots of art work and color photos also.I had never heard of the book before.
I've heard of it, read about it, but never seen it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 23, 2007, 10:42:19 AM
Guys, that's because it was something that came up during,"The Power and the Glory" days.   I'd also like to read the book about Capri, written by another author re: Graham.

I'd say that Bosox just became the owner of a rare book, not too likely to have a reprint in another edition.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 23, 2007, 06:35:34 PM
It looks like ABE has four pages of the book for sale.But that includes a paperback version also.Mine alas doesn't seem to be a first edition.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 24, 2007, 12:36:24 AM
Is it a Viking 1974?

I'm curious now, did your's turn  out to be on the $1.00 end from Studio,or on the other end at $148.00 ?

Hold on to it awhile and it will increase in value.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 24, 2007, 01:07:26 AM
It is Viking 1974 and it's in very nice shape.The idea of value though at certain used book stores on ABE seems to be a bit on the high side.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 24, 2007, 10:23:04 AM
It's like that all over. I dawdled when I saw the listing for a special book which had been mentioned by the knowledgable lady who was the responsible person guiding Myth and Ancient Literature at nytimes.com

I think it was while the usual discussion group attempted to discuss a fairly recent dissection of Shakespeare and we were getting shattered, along about Marlowe, by invaders from outer space who wanted to take over the forum and drive us all to distraction.

It was at this point that theta mentioned, in aside, the insightful vision of Hughes,better known on this continent as the husband of Sylvia Plath, although he had been Poet Laureate in his own country. Theta passed along the title of his collegiate thesis that explained all of what Shakespeare had mystically discovered. It was hermetic knowledge to say the least.

She warned me, it would be very hard to locate, as when she studied it,she had access to a university library. Darn, and I had given up the Firestone for the back-country bible readers in German?

But out of curiousity, I put out a search and was startled, maybe through Alibris, when I noticed a local listing -- that is, in my own locality, and for a reasonable price at that.  All I would have had to do was phone or e-mail. But I dawdled because it sounded like a private sale of one item; and they are the sort of thing more than well worn and with pages oft missing.

Hardly a quarter year later, I went to the usual local book sale in a small library that does a Spring-cleaning, and while perusing the book tables, some title set off a train of thought and I struck up a conversation with a very solid person who seemed quite perspicacious about what she would not select from the books that she turned over.  By awesome coincidence, not only was she a book dealer but the very one that I had not contacted about the ever rarer copies of the Hughes thesis. It had gone for just barely over a third of the price required currently, and all because I had dawdled about getting over there, just down the road in the next township over, to inspect the book for myself.

Hang in there. I'm told it is well-worth reading.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 25, 2007, 12:47:10 AM
Teddy,the Sunday NYTimes book review has Bernd H's new book.I'd send the link but that site is so bloody slow.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on June 25, 2007, 10:13:22 PM
So there you are. And here we go.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 25, 2007, 10:16:10 PM
NNYhav....sort of off topic, even for meandering, but great blog you have there!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on June 25, 2007, 11:15:47 PM
LH -- As I recall, nothing's offtopic hereabouts -- glad you like it, but it's more for my own benefit, mostly a running reading diary, to force me to think a little more about what I read. I'm now reading W.S.Merwyn's Summer Doorways: A Memoir, 1/2way thru; next planned purchase is John Williams' Stoner, just reissued by nyrb -- anybody know it?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 26, 2007, 12:34:18 AM
Teddy,I noticed an ad in the NYTimes arts section on thurs for a new Ann Dillard novel.I recall several years ago sending you a link from a Provincetown paper about her living in Wellfleet on the Cape and it appears this novel is about Cape Cod so I hope it is not a departure from her earlier style or a need for money.

Bo -- looks to be The Maytrees, her new (and I believe second only - the other being "The Living" - an historical fiction novel set in Northwest US) novel -- in the sense of being fiction, a bit of a departure from her main style -- non.

http://www.amazon.com/Maytrees-Novel-Annie-Dillard/dp/0061239534


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 26, 2007, 12:41:19 AM
So there you are. And here we go.

And how good to see you nnyhav.

I'm reading sci fi novel a meanderer recommended awhile back -- Calculating God by Robert Sawyer.  So far, a light and pleasant visit to the Royal Ontario Museum and narrator/protagonist/paleontologist there, who is visited by alien - giant spider-like (though in fact with skeleton and muscle and high intelligence) who has landed at the former planetarium next door.  Best of Burgess Shale collection is kept at the ROM (part from the Smithsonian) -- and the alien wants to do some studying.  Alien states to narrator that God caused the threee great extinctions on earth and his own planet, plus one other planet he's visited, all at the same times -- something narrator can't fathom, as for one thing, as a scientist, he doesn't believe in God.  This dismays the alien, whose superior intelligence has led him and his fellow beings to believe there is a God -- based on scientific fact.  At any rate -- the narrator, it turns out, is very ill.  I am hoping the alien will help him out.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on June 26, 2007, 08:17:12 AM
So there you are. And here we go.

And how good to see you nnyhav.
[...]

It's great to be back in the old Meander. Who's Melba?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 26, 2007, 09:21:59 AM
As in -- "escape fro .. " ?

Ha!

(A search for mysterious member Melba. yielded only your highlighted question and countless repeats of our forum header ...)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: kitinkaboodle on June 26, 2007, 09:49:30 AM
Does anyone here have any Thailand travel experience(s) they would share?

Thanks!
Kit


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 26, 2007, 10:05:56 AM
My ex mother-in-law went there and seemed to have some complaints, most of which made me wonder just what she had been expecting of a crowded city (Bangkok) in a developing country in the tropics.  Maybe she was getting a cheap kidney and didn't want to tell us about it.

Anyway, I heard it was really hot and humid and crowded and full of insane drivers and the streets stink of piss and garbage.  I imagine it's nicer if you get out in the countryside, though.  Victoria BC in July is more my speed.

 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 26, 2007, 10:12:14 AM
Does anyone here have any Thailand travel experience(s) they would share?

Thanks!
Kit
I've had Pad Thai.  Does that count?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: kitinkaboodle on June 26, 2007, 10:16:30 AM
Barton, I do agree with you re: BC  Vancouver is one of my most favorite cities... and you're right, hard to beat that weather in the summer months.  Thailand has come up as a suggestion for a November get-away for a rather mixed group of (former) college buds.  We're still in the discussion stage...



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on June 26, 2007, 10:54:22 AM
I saw that Goliard had signed in as well, but it seems he is still lurking.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on June 26, 2007, 11:18:55 AM
Teddy -- you might enjoy this rant about the SciFi ghetto-fit-already:
http://mumpsimus.blogspot.com/2007/06/shibboleth-of-literary-establishment.html
I'm becoming more sympathetic to the notion that midlist litfic is as much genre as anything.
(But I still prefer it above all others.)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: kitinkaboodle on June 26, 2007, 11:19:26 AM
Does anyone here have any Thailand travel experience(s) they would share?

Thanks!
Kit
I've had Pad Thai.  Does that count?

 ;D
Me too, and Tom Yum -- soup -- and can get more fairly close to home.  Actually, this would be more of a country-side trip.  Not at all sure what we'd be eating!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 26, 2007, 11:24:48 AM
She's Napoleon's concubine.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 26, 2007, 11:42:56 AM
"Okay, so the Times polled lots of writers and critics, and we could say that's "the literary establishment" if we really want to give a few employees at one newspaper the right to determine such a thing, but it doesn't follow then that this is "the literary canon". While it might be possible to speak of some writers like Shakespeare and Keats as "canonical", it makes no sense to use the term "literary canon" to talk about anything recent, because there is simply too much disagreement amongst everybody -- no-one could possibly write up a list of canonical works or writers of the past twenty-five years and come to much agreement. It's hard enough to get anybody to agree about older writings, and even then the concept of canons is up for lots of debate, because you always have to ask who it is who is mandating these canons, who has the authority to enforce their power, what cultural and social factors affect their production and promulgation, etc. (At the beginning of his essay, Sanford asserts that there are only 25,000 readers of litfic in the U.S. -- even if all these people agreed about all the books in "the canon", what would it matter?)"

quote from oh, that, mumpsimus, a difference of opinion one had with his Imperium mosca.  I said it was Henry the VIII's literary opinion.

Actually, some of this has been licked at the times referred to because after Cavett San attacked the issue of what publishers do to writers and all the writers with the same experience had a group therapy session of agreement with him, a new blog appeared. I am not totally sure that I would even begin to be able to find it again. It was stunning. So very erudite elderly gentleman with little energy to be overly involved with such things did give us a new take on John Updike who is not the New Englander so many of us supposed, nor the sophisticated New York commuter to the suburbs. He is in fact John Updike of Reading, Pennsylvania who respected John O'Hara, fellow Pennsylvanian, a one, a two, three, as the master of the short story form. I agree, there's something to that choice. I have everyone of the collected books that I could find in New Jersey,after looking up the local home of the master and visiting his grave-site.  There's a reason, he drank. Lack of appreciation.

But, has any one here read (gentle soul) Updike's, Gertrude and Claudius; I'd be interested in opinions?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 26, 2007, 12:31:49 PM
KITTIN,I was in Thailand in 1971.It was the hiding place of many desertors -I hate the word- from the US army and where the soldiers went for holidays.In a hotel ,best described in Hotel California-Eagles- I was offered by them my first marihuana,inhaled through a long huge pipe which knocked me off rite there and then only to wake the next morning and baffled as nothing was stolen from my knapsack.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 26, 2007, 12:38:08 PM
Nyhav -- I was glad to see you post the sci-fi ghetto article.  I've been annoyed for years by the whole notion of a literary elite, or that there's some literary mainstream that is snobbishly ignoring genre stuff.  Sturgeon's Law, "90 percent of everything is crap," applies.  A lot of SF isn't well written and endlessly recycles tired formulae and cliche characters.  Most of Philip K. Dick's stuff is badly written and usually improves when it's turned into a screenplay.  Dick was an idea man who didn't write that well, but dreamed brilliantly.  A few do get it right, most recently the Torontonian Robert Charles Wilson, who characterization is so vivid as to make him the Updike of SF.  Some writers, like Jonathan Lethem, borrow SF motifs and then go their own direction and flow into the mainstream.  Good speculative fiction is there and accessible for the small niche of readers who are interested.  There is no ghetto, just people who prefer some other neighborhood more.

    


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on June 26, 2007, 01:19:12 PM
Was just telling hubby that I was printing out information on John Updike to add to my collection of Famous Pennsylvanias, and he recognized the name, and when I mentioned the titled, he took exception to my pronunciation of "Rabbit Redux" .... I said redoo, and he said it should be redoe ... which of us is right, and is it based on French or another language?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 26, 2007, 03:02:09 PM
Was just telling hubby that I was printing out information on John Updike to add to my collection of Famous Pennsylvanias, and he recognized the name, and when I mentioned the titled, he took exception to my pronunciation of "Rabbit Redux" .... I said redoo, and he said it should be redoe ... which of us is right, and is it based on French or another language?


Latin root, it's pronounced re-ducks.  In French, a "doe" sound would be spelled deaux in many cases, and "doo" is roughly "dieu", though they aren't exactly the same.  Or an "ou" is used for the "oo" sound - eg, Boudreaux, pronounced "Boo-droe".


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 26, 2007, 03:07:43 PM
Re-ducks....in the sense of something returned.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 26, 2007, 09:50:26 PM
My ex mother-in-law went there and seemed to have some complaints, most of which made me wonder just what she had been expecting of a crowded city (Bangkok) in a developing country in the tropics.  Maybe she was getting a cheap kidney and didn't want to tell us about it.

Anyway, I heard it was really hot and humid and crowded and full of insane drivers and the streets stink of piss and garbage.  I imagine it's nicer if you get out in the countryside, though.  Victoria BC in July is more my speed.

 

Barton and Kit,

I feel a bit better now about Victoria being my only vacation destination for the past few years, travelling to low budget Hotel Douglas a couple of times a year via public transport (buses and ferry and bus again) from North Vancouver.  For a walker, it's great, because it's pretty flat, and a lot can be seen in a pretty small space -- plus the Beaconshill Park - Dallas seawall walk back to the inner harbour makes for a lovely couple of hours hike.

Plus -- if your roots are thereabouts to explore, there's that interest as well (imagining G.R. walking in the same air space along Government Street near where his photography studio was ..)

At Cafe Mexico on Wednesdays the Margaritas are $3.00.  It's probably not the greatest of Mexican food but I'm comfortable there now and enjoy at each visit.

One of these years now, before too decrepit, wouldn't mind being transported somehow to - say - Europe.

(As I write this, the work-out guy above me is bouncing his endless ball above my head ...)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on June 26, 2007, 09:54:20 PM
Dessie,

Thanks so much for the reply. When hubby and I were discussing it, he asked if it was Latin, and having had 2 years of Latin, I said no.

Guess I got egg on my face for that, and both of us for mis-pronouncing it.

Can't wait till morning to tell him we were both wrong!!!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 26, 2007, 10:08:00 PM
I saw that Goliard had signed in as well, but it seems he is still lurking.

Dzimas -- what good news!  I do hope he posts here..


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 26, 2007, 10:21:22 PM
Teddy -- you might enjoy this rant about the SciFi ghetto-fit-already:
http://mumpsimus.blogspot.com/2007/06/shibboleth-of-literary-establishment.html
I'm becoming more sympathetic to the notion that midlist litfic is as much genre as anything.
(But I still prefer it above all others.)

Just read it and enjoyed, nnyhav -- thanks.  I scorned old boyfriend once for loving the books of Ursula leGuin just because she was a Sci Fi writer, -- though I'd never actually read any of her novels.  I presumed that a genre fiction like sci-fi was inferior to real lit.  I don't see why, though, such a wrapping couldn't encase something spectacular -- there's nothing stopping that.  Interesting comment you make re "midlist litfic" being "as much a genre" -- perhaps there are certain "elite" wrappings we're oblivious to.

I do have to admit, though, that the particular sci fi novel I'm reading now, so far, is fun to read, a page turner, but at a level aimed for say an eight year old.

My sister likes "fantasy" -- I guess genres bleed into one another.  She absolutely loved the Philip Pullman trilogy ("The Golden Compass", "The Subtle Knife", "The Amber Spyglass") -- I guess classified as bright, children's fantasy lit?  I didn't like it though that much -- though I love the universally popular Harry Potter -- which she also likes. 

Annie Dillard's non-fiction, non-speculative -- Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, fired up in me a shiver, a sense of the mysterious, the awesome, more than any space creature has so far.

My sister found her book "too poetic". 

So, there's the question of taste - of what appeals uniquely to any individual.

Shakespeare, in his time, it seems, was appreciated by simple folk, and smart ones too, but not considered part of the "elite canon" in his lifetime?  (Being a writer of lowly plays, after all?)

If I'm wrong, correct me.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 26, 2007, 10:22:28 PM
Was just telling hubby that I was printing out information on John Updike to add to my collection of Famous Pennsylvanias, and he recognized the name, and when I mentioned the titled, he took exception to my pronunciation of "Rabbit Redux" .... I said redoo, and he said it should be redoe ... which of us is right, and is it based on French or another language?


Latin root, it's pronounced re-ducks.  In French, a "doe" sound would be spelled deaux in many cases, and "doo" is roughly "dieu", though they aren't exactly the same.  Or an "ou" is used for the "oo" sound - eg, Boudreaux, pronounced "Boo-droe".

Des -- this is most impressive!

(I couldn't help but note, that a certain person on the CW forum, in advising you how to turn on the "ignore", had one "Teddy" as the person to be ignored -- I hope you know that wasn't me, and I hope you haven't put me on "ignore"!)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on June 26, 2007, 10:23:08 PM
A surprise package awaited me when I got home -- Nabokov Studies #10, and I thought my subscription had run out. A quick pagethru shows the usual obligatory Lolita essays, a couple on Pale Fire (Cantos 3 and 4 -- the former disappointing, the latter too long to assess at a glance, and besides it's on what's always been a rough patch for me, Shade shaving, so I'll have to read it more attentively), and longer promising-looking essays on Nabokov in Dec of '25 (no not the other way round) and on "An Intertextual Spiderweb in Nabokov's 'Cloud, Castle, Lake'". The volume semifestschrifts DBJohnson's contributions.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on June 26, 2007, 10:37:49 PM
Teddy -- you might enjoy this rant about the SciFi ghetto-fit-already:
http://mumpsimus.blogspot.com/2007/06/shibboleth-of-literary-establishment.html
I'm becoming more sympathetic to the notion that midlist litfic is as much genre as anything.
(But I still prefer it above all others.)

[...]  Interesting comment you make re "midlist litfic" being "as much a genre" -- perhaps there are certain "elite" wrappings we're oblivious to.

[...]

So, there's the question of taste - of what appeals uniquely to any individual.

Shakespeare, in his time, it seems, was appreciated by simple folk, and smart ones too, but not considered part of the "elite canon" in his lifetime?  (Being a writer of lowly plays, after all?)

If I'm wrong, correct me.


Let me correct myself first. I prefer genre litfic to genre F&SF or detective etc. I would define it as putting precedence on style and structure over story. Sometimes nothing much happens. But I prefer what transcends genre above all. Whatever genre it's assigned. Which it can transform (which was claimed for Le Guin for fantasy -- and Harold Bloom put John Crowley's Little, Big in his Western Canon). What matters is that it's good, that it stands the test of time, and sometimes you can tell without having to wait.

Shakespeare is an exceptional case.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 26, 2007, 10:59:56 PM
Let me correct myself first. I prefer genre litfic to genre F&SF or detective etc. I would define it as putting precedence on style and structure over story. Sometimes nothing much happens. But I prefer what transcends genre above all. Whatever genre it's assigned. Which it can transform (which was claimed for Le Guin for fantasy -- and Harold Bloom put John Crowley's Little, Big in his Western Canon). What matters is that it's good, that it stands the test of time, and sometimes you can tell without having to wait.

Shakespeare is an exceptional case.


Thanks, nnyhav -- lucidly, wonderfully well put.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 26, 2007, 11:01:33 PM
Martin,

Enjoyed your Thai post. 

Have you read anything by Chilean writer, Roberto Bolano?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on June 26, 2007, 11:09:18 PM
Bo,

As per your discussion with Madupont -- the Greene sounds like a wonderful find!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 26, 2007, 11:16:36 PM
teddy174c, re:#514     and nnyav,re:517
"Shakespeare, in his time, it seems, was appreciated by simple folk, and smart ones too, but not considered part of the "elite canon" in his lifetime?  (Being a writer of lowly plays, after all?)

I'd rather say that he wrote "popular theatrics",(you'll hate this. Intended to be, without to do, as our addictive tv series); but, he unfailingly reproduces the entire scale of the language that his audiences use (and found in the same play at that). So there was something for everyone.

I like the speeches in the historical plays best.  Yet, Macbeth is not particularly easy to understand as to context, other than murder plot that is the very center of the story.  One gets a bit lost in the fringes unless you specialize.  I thought that a difficulty in Othello as well, due to my youth at the time, I am sure; but by repetition a mad passionate jealousy inspired by a less heroic character's envy will eventually fit into a time and a place and a culture that makes sense(similarly to,The Merchant of Venice actually, as almost the other side of the coin.

Our administrator has nicely placed the latest Romeo and Juliet yesterday in the Theater sector of Melba's Place (I saw it that way also nnyhav)since it is that season again with Shakespeare in the Park. After reading the reviewer from the nytimes.com, I decided that I prefer Franco Zeffirelli; at least  eight years after a movie about him, Tea with Mussolini.

Ps. nnyav, Escape fro Melba is like one of those bad jokes about a guy who has to change his favourite watering hole because, when he goes to join his friends for a drink in the evening, there is Melba, his ex-wife with her new boyfriend. And by the time that he gets to the next place on his rounds, to see who might be there, somebody, anybody to talk with, surprise there's Melba who snuck out the back door with her friend and hopped on to the back of his motorcycle ,so as not to make things unpleasant where they both knew everybody,etc.


Title: Just a Hello
Post by: snyggokul on June 26, 2007, 11:26:37 PM
Hullo !

This is just to say hello and let you guys know that I haven't shown up lately cuz I've been in bed for the past entire week with this nasty virus -- evil thing , really -- desguised as the 'Flu' that is sooooo absolutely debilitating that I could NOT take advantage of the time at all, not even to at least READ in bed.  >:(  Humpf ! Read? I could not understand the news on the local paper !!! (Eyes rolling...)

Now, teachers, as you all must know, are NOT supposed to get sick, so as soon as I catch up with all that was left behind undone and uncared for, I'll show up again, OK ?

Hope you are all well.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on June 27, 2007, 08:34:46 AM
So I'm still not satisfied with my understanding of Canto IV of "Pale Fire", but the NS#10 essay, read on the train this AM, helped:

Dustin Condren, "John Shade Shaving: Inspiration and Composition in a Selection from Pale Fire"
Abstract: Charles Kinbote's aesthetic frustrations with his beloved poet John Shade reach their apex at the start of Pale Fire's final canto, which features long descriptions of the poet shaving in the bathtub. Kinbote tries to elevate the passage with a desperate (and faulty) reference to a similar moment in the oeuvre of A. E. Housman. Kinbote unwittingly sends the reader on an allusive journey in which we find that that the act of shaving is the figure used by both Nabokov and Housman in describing the agony of poetic composition and the transient bliss of inspiration. What Kinbote originally reads as a mocking parody turns out to be a genuine, though playful, statement of artistic method.
(via http://listserv.ucsb.edu/lsv-cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0705&L=nabokv-l&P=4362 )

The last time I devoted to analysis (10/05 blog), I concentrated on the poet/critic allusions via John & Sybil Shade, wholly neglecting Kinbote. Condren fills in -- Housman:Kinbote::Pope:Shade -- and particularly the bit from Housman's lecture "The Name and Nature of Poetry":

“Poetry indeed seems to me more physical than intellectual. A year or two ago, in common with others, I received from America a request that I would define poetry. I replied that I could no more define poetry than a terrier can define a rat, but that I thought we both recognized the object by the symptoms which it provokes in us. One of these symptoms was described in connexion with another object by Eliphaz the Temanite: 'A spirit passed bfore my face: the hair of my flesh stood up.' Experience has taught me, when I am shaving of a morning, to keep watch over my thoughts, because, if a line of poetry strays into my memory, my skin bristles so that the razor ceases to act, This particular symptom is accompanied by a shiver down the spine; there is another which consists in a constriction of the throat and a precipitation of water to the eyes; and there is a third which I can only describe by borrowing a phrase from one of Keats’s last letters, where he says, speaking of Fanny Brawne, `everything that reminds me of her goes through me like a spear.’ The seat of this sensation is the pit of the stomach.”

Beyond pointing out the relevance of the Biblical reference, Eliphaz in the Book of Job, Condren does some clever twisting words with Eliphaz, as having IPH in the middle and Hazel wrapped around. The rest is just aftershave lotion.

Prior referents include Richard Rorty, "The Barber of Kasbeam: Nabokov on Cruelty"
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/english/NEH/RORTY.HTM
Leona Toker, "Liberal Ironists and the Gaudily Painted Savage"
http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/tokerp1.htm


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: kitinkaboodle on June 27, 2007, 09:06:08 AM
KITTIN,I was in Thailand in 1971.It was the hiding place of many desertors -I hate the word- from the US army and where the soldiers went for holidays.In a hotel ,best described in Hotel California-Eagles- I was offered by them my first marihuana,inhaled through a long huge pipe which knocked me off rite there and then only to wake the next morning and baffled as nothing was stolen from my knapsack.



Martin --
Thanks for the input.  I imagine that you replied in much the same way... ::) 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 27, 2007, 11:28:45 AM
So I'm still not satisfied with my understanding of Canto IV of "Pale Fire", but the NS#10 essay, read on the train this AM, helped:

Dustin Condren, "John Shade Shaving: Inspiration and Composition in a Selection from Pale Fire"
Abstract: Charles Kinbote's aesthetic frustrations with his beloved poet John Shade reach their apex at the start of Pale Fire's final canto, which features long descriptions of the poet shaving in the bathtub. Kinbote tries to elevate the passage with a desperate (and faulty) reference to a similar moment in the oeuvre of A. E. Housman. Kinbote unwittingly sends the reader on an allusive journey in which we find that that the act of shaving is the figure used by both Nabokov and Housman in describing the agony of poetic composition and the transient bliss of inspiration. What Kinbote originally reads as a mocking parody turns out to be a genuine, though playful, statement of artistic method.
(via http://listserv.ucsb.edu/lsv-cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0705&L=nabokv-l&P=4362 )

The last time I devoted to analysis (10/05 blog), I concentrated on the poet/critic allusions via John & Sybil Shade, wholly neglecting Kinbote. Condren fills in -- Housman:Kinbote::Pope:Shade -- and particularly the bit from Housman's lecture "The Name and Nature of Poetry":

“Poetry indeed seems to me more physical than intellectual. A year or two ago, in common with others, I received from America a request that I would define poetry. I replied that I could no more define poetry than a terrier can define a rat, but that I thought we both recognized the object by the symptoms which it provokes in us. One of these symptoms was described in connexion with another object by Eliphaz the Temanite: 'A spirit passed bfore my face: the hair of my flesh stood up.' Experience has taught me, when I am shaving of a morning, to keep watch over my thoughts, because, if a line of poetry strays into my memory, my skin bristles so that the razor ceases to act, This particular symptom is accompanied by a shiver down the spine; there is another which consists in a constriction of the throat and a precipitation of water to the eyes; and there is a third which I can only describe by borrowing a phrase from one of Keats’s last letters, where he says, speaking of Fanny Brawne, `everything that reminds me of her goes through me like a spear.’ The seat of this sensation is the pit of the stomach.”

Beyond pointing out the relevance of the Biblical reference, Eliphaz in the Book of Job, Condren does some clever twisting words with Eliphaz, as having IPH in the middle and Hazel wrapped around. The rest is just aftershave lotion.

Prior referents include Richard Rorty, "The Barber of Kasbeam: Nabokov on Cruelty"
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/english/NEH/RORTY.HTM
Leona Toker, "Liberal Ironists and the Gaudily Painted Savage"
http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/tokerp1.htm


Wow, nnyhav - that is some pretty deep stuff there.  My volume of Pale Fire is in a random box out of about a dozen boxes of books in my garage!  Just moved - no bookshelf - now I guess I'll go crazy unless I find a way to get a bookshelf.  But I'm SO housepoor at the moment.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 27, 2007, 11:53:24 AM
MADUPONT,Roberto Bolaño is excellent -he died some years ago-.In the old LatAmLit in the NYT we discussed "Estrella distante"-distant star?-.
It´s about a case of double personality during the years of fire in Chile.A man that fascinates women,visits poetry workshops,so as to spy among the intellectuals.He takes pictures of torture victims and makes exhibits.A fascist named Weider.

Guess what? At present there are lots of upper class fascists among the Chilean.Plenty of nazis,well,more or less like we have here in Argentina but over there for some ignote reason they are not looked down. Down in Chilean south there are even some *secret* places like Colonia Dignidad,where children are indoctrinated and visitors are not allowed in.The police has a hard time getting into the Colonia and anyhow with some exceptions they are the same kind of sht.

Bolaño is to Isabel Allende what good theatre is to soap opera.As you can see I don´t like Isabel though both describe those years the difference is obvious. I don´t think anybody would have paid any attention to her novels had she not been Allende´s niece.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 27, 2007, 11:57:59 AM
Sorry, that should ´ve been TEDDY.I wonder why I had Madupont(Lady of the Perpetual Knowledge) on my mind  :-[

KITIN, please don´t imagine I wrote the Bolaño post in *much the same way*.I am at work (!) pretending I´m busy contacting foreign clients ;) 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on June 27, 2007, 03:33:58 PM
Dessie,

Unless you need a high-style bookcase, you have some low brow alternatives. Buy some cheap shelving (the unpainted stuff made of sawdust is cheapest, although I, myself prefer wood so it can be made pretty later. Use bricks, concrete blocks, milk crates, or tall books to support the shelves, and fill in the rest of the books from there. The boards will come usually in 4 ft sections, although the wood is in 8 ft or 10 ft sections. It is possible to saw wood with a steak knife, although it is time-consuming. It you use milk crates for support of the shelves, you have extra space for smaller books or special collections inside the milk crates. I have also, when I had access to a large number of milk crates, used them, as they were for both displaying and moving books from location to location. Easy to set up in any artistic arrrangement. There is still, 25 years after we moved here, a couple of pieces of "furniture" made from milk crate, including on the porch, where they make nice shelves for garden implements.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 27, 2007, 04:19:43 PM
Thanks for the tip, weezo.

nytimesperdu -

Maybe we should take it to CW?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on June 27, 2007, 04:48:32 PM
Desdamona, on my screen your posts #525 and 530 were "hidden" (meaning that nothing appeared in the post space) until I clicked on the little red X in a box on the right.  Why is that?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on June 27, 2007, 06:21:26 PM
Lifeline

—for Mick Sussman

lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline
lifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifelinelifeline

http://forums.nytimes.com/top/opinion/readersopinions/forums/books/voteforthereadinggroupbook/index.html?offset=690&fid=.fac5bc6/690

http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,39.msg16324.html#msg16324


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 28, 2007, 10:16:24 AM
Donot -

Dunno.  I checked my account settings.  Perhaps liquid is punishing me or something?   ???

Just kidding about liquid.  ;D


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 28, 2007, 10:19:50 AM
Is anyone else seeing me as "hidden"???


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 28, 2007, 10:21:50 AM
"... It is possible to saw wood with a steak knife, although it is time-consuming...."

Once, in the 80s, I was able to install a ceiling fan with a plastic spork and a tarnished dime.  It took ten months, but the result was well worth the effort.  I am currently spiking together railroad ties in my garden using my manhood, wrapped in electrical conduit.  You just have to have the "con du it" attitude and you'll achieve wonders.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 28, 2007, 10:25:36 AM
"... It is possible to saw wood with a steak knife, although it is time-consuming...."

Once, in the 80s, I was able to install a ceiling fan with a plastic spork and a tarnished dime.  It took ten months, but the result was well worth the effort.  I am currently spiking together railroad ties in my garden using my manhood, wrapped in electrical conduit.  You just have to have the "con du it" attitude and you'll achieve wonders.



HA - I have a mental image going now, bart!!!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 28, 2007, 11:46:29 AM
PUGET, please don´t call the devil. You´ve gone crazy?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 28, 2007, 12:00:23 PM
JUST-IN-CASE:

Exorcism
   In the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord and God, by the intercession of Mary, spotless Virgin and Mother of God, of St. Michael the Archangel, of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul, and of all the saints, and by the authority residing in our holy ministry, we steadfastly proceed to combat the onslaught of the wily enemy


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 28, 2007, 12:06:16 PM
DESDEMONA, I´m afraid you´ve fallen in the claws of He Who Never Sleeps.It is Him who hides you.
Repeat the following thrice times thrice:

 "We cast you out, every unclean spirit, every satanic power, every onslaught of the infernal adversary, every legion, every diabolical group and sect, in the name and by the power of our Lord. We command you, begone and fly far."

 

 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 28, 2007, 12:10:37 PM
martin -

It WORKED, by golly!!!!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on June 28, 2007, 12:41:30 PM
Desdemona, you are still appearing hidden to me unless I click on that little red x over on the right.  I'm going to ask Admin about it.  Perhaps some tweaking done on the EscapeFromElba site does not agree with my IE 6.0.  This is a recent thing.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 28, 2007, 12:41:42 PM
DONOTREMOVE,Lord of the Flying Red Horse,
someone had the Fiery Pen youtubed with her choir doing Mozart´s Gloria.She´s none of the soloists(*) ,neither the long haired one nor the one with the beard,she´s at the back with the whole lot of them.
(*) she wishes she was!

Behold and Venerate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afWKbc1UNpU

p.s.this mite also help with Puget´s convocation of He Who Never etc., i.e.Mr.L.Line


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 28, 2007, 12:57:13 PM
Desdemona, you are still appearing hidden to me unless I click on that little red x over on the right.  I'm going to ask Admin about it.  Perhaps some tweaking done on the EscapeFromElba site does not agree with my IE 6.0.  This is a recent thing.

Donot - I just recently made a change in my settings that I thought I just undid. Did you turning your browser off then re-entering the website?  I just made a change to my profile that should have fixed it.  Let me look again and see if it worked. 



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 28, 2007, 01:09:08 PM
Tempsperd -- thanks for the blue ribbon.  While I'm making myself useful, I have cast out evil by sacrificing two gerbils to Reggie, the Enormous Gelatin and moral center of the universe.  Used a spork for that, too.  God, but sporks are handy.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 28, 2007, 03:35:01 PM
DESDEMONA, I´m afraid you´ve fallen in the claws of He Who Never Sleeps.It is Him who hides you.
Repeat the following thrice times thrice:

 "We cast you out, every unclean spirit, every satanic power, every onslaught of the infernal adversary, every legion, every diabolical group and sect, in the name and by the power of our Lord. We command you, begone and fly far."

 

 


Funny, you should mention it. But I tried to get in touch with you yesterday, first in the post  as usual, and zip, up in smoke. So then it occurred to me, nuts, this isn't necessarily for public approval ratings, I think I shall Bolano down to the message service where I ran into some very strange cryptics before finishing up. I decided to throw up my hands in disgust.  I was writing to you about your latest findings and comparing them to how those worked out up here, although there is still an up here increasingly enough to drive you nuts.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on June 28, 2007, 03:51:14 PM
Martin, thanks for the link showing the Fiery Pen's choral group.  Unfortunately I am dial up and don't have "fast enough" pixies to get the Youtube effect.  I only get 2-3 second spurts which makes  Internet videos look like they've been broken and repaired with a bad splice.  I'm going on the fast track in late September, so I'll be "in" with all you Youtubers then.

I can relate to your tale of the tents in the loft. I can tell you from years of experience.  They never go away for good.  They always come back.  With wives, lovers, children, and roaches.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 28, 2007, 04:24:07 PM
"They always come back"  Donotremove

That's why my mother sold the house(and moved into an apartment)  after my father died. Three sisters three brothers, remarriages, long-distance travelers. When she moved back into an apartment after forty plus years, she said,"Where do I shake out the mop?" From the balcony(?) 

I sent her an owl for the balcony to keep  away the pigeons. A great stone owl tall enough to scare the bejesus out of them; which I think was the problem anyway.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on June 28, 2007, 09:46:30 PM
pugetopolis - 9:20 PM ET June 28, 2007 (#384 of 384)
"Can there be poetry after Auschwitz?"--Theodor Adorno

Lifeline

—for Sam Tanenhaus

“Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store. Well I'm happy to be back. But I have to go to the bagel store.”

http://forums.nytimes.com/top/opinion/readersopinions/forums/books/voteforthereadinggroupbook/index.html?offset=696&fid=.fac5bc6/696


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on June 29, 2007, 01:34:26 AM
I finished the Robert Michael Pyle book"Where Bigfoot Walks" and I would not hesitate to tell someone to read it.One of those gems you stumble across.Seeing as the 4th is coming up I think I'll do McPhee's "The Founding Fish Next" but not sure what fiction to pull out of the pile.I was going to go up to Lake Tahoe for the week but with all the smoke from the fire and my brothers old Berkeley Buddies descending on the house well as soon as I fell asleep they'd steal all my drugs.I'd rather go up there alone,eat mushrooms and talk to the Owls.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 29, 2007, 01:40:26 AM
Bigfoot:

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/watercooler/watercooler_article.aspx?storyid=77266


Title: Opus
Post by: Dzimas on June 29, 2007, 03:08:19 AM
Not exactly the most erudite reading, but I received a copy of 25 Years of Opus in the mail this morning, covering his years both with Bloom County and Outland.  I don't think enough can be said as to how much Bloom County, Far Side, and Calvin and Hobbes reshaped the way we look at Sunday comics.  The recent beautiful collections of Far Side and Calvin and Hobbes elevate these serials to high art (relatively speaking).


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on June 29, 2007, 03:25:54 AM
Funny to see Bigfoot in the news again.  I see another search party has been organized to track down this mythical beast,

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/06/27/bigfoot.ap/index.html?eref=rss_space

I was in the UP some years ago but found no trace of the beast, but I discovered Jim Harrison,

http://www.amazon.com/Wolf-False-Memoir-Jim-Harrison/dp/0385291604/ref=sr_1_4/105-5791205-4542015?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183101924&sr=1-4


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 29, 2007, 11:22:19 AM
Bloom County, The Far Side, and Calvin & Hobbes are all great to read in collections.  To what degree they "reshaped" Sunday comics I can't say....it was Peanuts, many years before, that brought adult irony and philosophic musings to the funny papers, IIRC.

Most hated comic strip:  Garfield.

Dullest comic strip from my childhood:  Nancy

Most enigmatic humor:  Zippy



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 29, 2007, 11:28:21 AM
"Nancy" really was SO lame, but nevertheless I was interested in it.

In my childhood, my own favorite was "Barney Google and Snuffy Smith", my least favorite was "Brenda Starr."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 29, 2007, 11:38:49 AM
Brenda Starr anthologies are pretty scarce, that's for sure.

I neglected to mention Pogo -- one of the greats. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on June 29, 2007, 11:53:01 AM
Zippy & Life in Hell were great -- kept me after The Reader for years ...
the last nyrb has a good article on Krazy Kat, alas not online

Best conversion of vapidity: Dysfunctional Family Circus http://dfc.furr.org/
sort of an http://icanhascheezburger.com of the early net ...


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on June 29, 2007, 11:54:20 AM
There's also this:

http://www.losanjealous.com/2006/09/27/you-got-nietzsche-in-my-family-circus/


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 29, 2007, 12:06:23 PM
LOL.

And maybe get a little Sartre in "Ziggy," too?  "Hell is other people."





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 29, 2007, 12:14:22 PM
Bloom County, The Far Side, and Calvin & Hobbes are all great to read in collections.  To what degree they "reshaped" Sunday comics I can't say....it was Peanuts, many years before, that brought adult irony and philosophic musings to the funny papers, IIRC.

Most hated comic strip:  Garfield.

Dullest comic strip from my childhood:  Nancy

Most enigmatic humor:  Zippy


As suck arse as Nancy was, it is a veritable font of wit and wisdom compared to Family Circus, Fred Bassett, or Broom Hilda.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 29, 2007, 01:34:10 PM
I think what primarily interested me in Barney Google and Snuffy Smith was a vigilant determination to actually see a strip that had Barney himself in it.  I think I read it every Sunday for several years with an appearance frin Barney maybe once or twice.  I was so thrilled.

The bizarre artwork in Nancy was the thing I found interesting.  What sort of crazy mind would think to draw something or someone like that, and what perverse sense of fashion did this guy have where Nancy's wardrobe was concerned?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on June 29, 2007, 03:44:03 PM
Desdemona, no, you are still hidden unless I click on the x.  I tried Mozilla to no effect.  I've emailed Admin but have no response as yet.  So far, your posts are the only ones that are hidden like that.  Thank goodness I can still view them by clicking on the x.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 29, 2007, 04:01:29 PM
Wow, donot.  I feel so ... so ...isolated.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 29, 2007, 04:02:26 PM
Try clearing your cache, donot.  Do you know how to do that?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: jbottle on June 29, 2007, 04:24:31 PM
But in that one called "Blondie," like Dagwood would start making these really huge sandwiches when he got home from work, you all have to admit that had a palpable "lol" quality that many others did not.

"Hagar the Horrible" was an actual fave because it was great-looking, even if the jokes were lame, but I also liked "The Wizard of Id" for the drawings and boorish humor. 

With Dagwood, it was hard to square how he scored Blondie, and I forget most of the humor, other than the sandwich jokes, always great in a pinch.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: jbottle on June 29, 2007, 04:57:07 PM
Nevermind, I just figured out that Blondie started off as kind of a floozie who went after Dagwood because of his dough, his family ran Bumstead Motor Works, but then they got married and moved to the suburbs and became emblematic of the 50's nuclear family ideal. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 29, 2007, 07:27:23 PM
No, no, no, bottle. The Bumsteads go way back to the Thirties, along with the Katzenjammer kids, and Pop-eye and Olive Oil.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on June 29, 2007, 09:33:11 PM
(http://www.uwm.edu/~jenor/nancy.gif)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: jbottle on June 29, 2007, 09:48:21 PM
Maud, yeah, I realize that it went back to the thirties, but by the time I started reading it, it was like "Ozzie and Harriet" or "Leave it to Beaver," basically, they had gotten married and were raising kids in the post-war era..., so what did I get so wrong???  You know in his early twenties in the Depression Era, playboy, avoids combat (?), gets married, cranks out a few hippies, I totally get it, I think.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 29, 2007, 10:40:53 PM
I guess that I outgrew the comics before that happened because I simply do not remember that these people went on in some constant non-aging  condition on the one hand  while continuing into each decade  on the other hand as if they could somehow live in synch with each new passing decade.  So you may be right and I just had better things to-do as the decades went by.

They were fixed into an era for me, the Depression and the gradual New Deal but I can't recall them becoming post-war option picked up neighbours of the Nelson family. Dagwood as a "playboy" would have to be a total  anachronism since his total style is the nebish at some white collar office who has made it past office-boy. Unless, just unless you happened to have someone pass you clandestinely the 8-pagers that were making the rounds in the Fifties in which Blondie and Dagwood introduced Middle America to both ends of possibility.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on June 29, 2007, 10:49:09 PM
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i38/jimwoodring/sluggo.jpg)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: jbottle on June 29, 2007, 11:28:37 PM
Maud:  I was on a website that said Dagwood started out as a single playboy of cosmopolitan society and that she was from the wrong side of the tracks but hot and spunky, you know, the whole screwball comedy thing, he is playing debonair while being a goof, she is playing at stupid while playing an angle, so evidently he was single and eligible and from a well to do family with an ongoing industrial concern:  She a fly by the seat of her pants type gal entertaining various quite fantastic offers from multiple suitors.

And then when they fell in love and got married the popularity of the comic took off and sort of accidentally coincided with the baby boom, etc., that's what I got out of it.  He eventually became a struggling middle-class suburbanite with screaming kids and an asshole boss and she tolerating his metaphorical sandwich excesses, cleary made while he was intoxicated in the kitchen late-night.

She probably felt relieved that he was more interested in a hoagie, or dagwood, in his condition and then he passed out in his lounge chair and was ready for the next cartoon pretty much none the worse for wear, just as in real life, but funnier, and with immortality and a stable waistline.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on June 30, 2007, 12:32:29 AM
jbottle,re:#453

"the popularity of the comic took off and sort of accidentally coincided with the baby boom, etc.,"

Oh,oh, which baby boom?     Are you referring to '48 or earlier?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on June 30, 2007, 01:29:54 AM
Barton, I was referring to the graphic quality of these cartoons,

(http://www.rblords.com/~razor/ch/ch880221.jpg)

The innovative use of the board and the sense of movement and emotive character artists like Bill Waterson and Berke Breathed gave his characters.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: jbottle on June 30, 2007, 05:10:37 AM
'48

I guess, though there seem to be many born during the war as well.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on June 30, 2007, 10:06:31 AM
This is one of my favorite C&H
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/harrieb/CalvinReadyToHaveFun.jpg)

I'm partial to it because where they haven't walked isn't really illustrated yet, conveying that your future adventures are what you make of them. In other words, you paint your own canvas of your life, as C&H are about to do.  Or maybe it's just a neat comic and I read too much into it.

Though I like this one as well
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/harrieb/hobbes3.jpg)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: chauncey.g on June 30, 2007, 10:42:12 AM
In other words, you paint your own canvas of your life, as C&H are about to do.

at the very least, looks like they have a map to share.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on June 30, 2007, 10:55:07 AM
Dzimas, thanks for clarifying.  Comics like C&H were innovators, graphically, moving out of the row of boxes and using a drawing style to leave open the imaginative world of a child. 

Whisky, I have vague memories of Fred Basset from my brief time living in New England, where it ran in the local papers.  Perhaps that is as well.





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on June 30, 2007, 12:00:53 PM
In other words, you paint your own canvas of your life, as C&H are about to do.

at the very least, looks like they have a map to share.

Fair enough.  But Calvin being the male of the species, I doubt he'll even glance at it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: chauncey.g on June 30, 2007, 12:23:01 PM
In other words, you paint your own canvas of your life, as C&H are about to do.

at the very least, looks like they have a map to share.

Fair enough.  But Calvin being the male of the species, I doubt he'll even glance at it.

Even fairer enough.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on June 30, 2007, 12:46:39 PM
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i38/jimwoodring/sluggo.jpg)

Thanks for the great laugh, pugey!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 30, 2007, 02:01:01 PM
Two other comic strips that were bad beyond belief; far worse than anything in Nancy: Mark Trail and the Ryatts, both drawn by the same person.  In fact, the artist drew the female leads in the two strips identically, except for hair style, so that when you had both strips in your paper, it appeared as if, when Mr. Ryatt was at work, Mrs. Ryatt was stepping out with some back woods guy for a little adventure.  Very immoral, Ithought.

The primary sin - besides an utter absence of humor - of The Ryatts was the glaring coninuity error.  In the course of a three panel conversation, Mrs. Ryatt would be doing the laundry, cooking dinner and vacuuiming.

Mark Trail, on the other hand, had a perspective problem.  The artist loved to draw these intricate wild life figures, which he would set in the extreme foreground of the panel that made it look unesaily like Mark Trail was about to be the morning meal of a gigantic wren.  Also, for some reason, Trail's St. Bernard would vary in size from a toy poodle to the Hound of the Farking Baskervilles from panel to panel.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 30, 2007, 02:03:10 PM
Bill Watterson is almost a neighbor.  He lives in the next suburb south of here.  I ought to drop by and visit some day.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: chauncey.g on June 30, 2007, 02:59:16 PM
The primary sin - besides an utter absence of humor - of The Ryatts was the glaring coninuity error.  In the course of a three panel conversation, Mrs. Ryatt would be doing the laundry, cooking dinner and vacuuiming.


The secondary being the perpetuation of the traditional role model. Was she barefoot in either panel? Preggie?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on June 30, 2007, 04:49:59 PM
I don't know the Ryatts, but I do remember Gil Thorpe, the high school coach.  Perhaps he had the bad strip market cornered in southern New England or something.

Somewhere I have a comic masterpiece of sorts (at least to me) -- a handwritten/drawn postcard from Berkeley Breathed addressed to me and everything.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on July 01, 2007, 03:24:20 AM
After reading the first two chapters of John McPhee's "The Founding Fish" this afternoon I think McPhee could write an entire book about "The Stop Sign" and make it interesting.Just a great writer who gets into the subject.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 01, 2007, 01:22:42 PM
Harrie, while there may be something to the stereotype of men not asking directions, I think the thing about not reading maps is dead wrong.  In fact, the most compulsive map readers I know are male, and I've even heard of studies that show that men are more prone to obsessive geographical study.  The only time men don't look at maps is when they're convinced they've already memorized said map by poring over it for hours beforehand.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 01, 2007, 05:57:02 PM
I don't know, barton. I've obsessed about maps since I was a kid; and,after a good rain for instance,I preferred to walk in the gutter imagining where boats were going along the stream draining away. When I got to school, I'd have to find some  quiet point rather quickly, at which i could draw up the map as I had imagined it on the journey to school. I look up maps, to be positive I am picturing the location accurately, not trusting to my previous inspections. This isn't even about going somewhere but rather about time and place coinciding with accuracy in discussing the history of a place or person.  An interesting mention in the news may have me delving into where a person was in relation to tangential areas. I SAVE maps from past locales as well as having  useful or interesting maps on the walls and some folded maps handy near the computer. Then there are the comparative maps that accrue to this reputedly non-feminine preoccupation. I look to know where I'm going, where I am, and where I've been.

And on that first point, categorically, I don't even drive. Tell me do you suppose, barton, should I consult a psychiatrist or, better yet, a cartographer since I already known a psychiatrist in a social context who probably would not know what I was getting at. While to me, it would be getting to....


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on July 01, 2007, 06:18:30 PM
Edith Wharton owned a motor car, and James liked to go on long rides with her. On one occasion, they were gone all day and lost; she remembered him asking directions from a passer-by in the town of Windsor. This is Wharton’s account of the incident:

While I was hesitating and peering out into the darkness James spied an an­cient doddering man who had stopped in the rain to gaze at us. “Wait a moment, my dear — I’ll ask him where we are”; and leaning out he signalled to the spectator.

“My good man, if you’ll be good enough to come here, please; a little nearer — so,” and as the old man came up: “My friend, to put it to you in two words, this lady and I have just arrived here from Slough; that is to say, to be more strict­ly accurate, we have recently passed through Slough on our way here, having actually motored to Windsor from Rye, which was our point of departure; and the darkness having overtaken us, we should be much obliged if you would tell us where we now are in rela­tion, say, to the High Street, which, as you of course know, leads to the Castle, after leaving on the left hand the turn down to the railway station.”

I was not surprised to have this extraordinary appeal met by silence, and a dazed expression on the old wrinkled face at the window; nor to have James go on: “In short” (his invariable prelude to a fresh series of explanatory ramifications), “in short, my good man, what I want to put to you in a word is this: supposing we have already (as I have reason to think we have) driven past the turn down to the railway station (which in that case, by the way, would probably not have been on our left hand, but on our right) where are we now in relation to . . .”

“Oh, please,” I interrupted, feeling myself utterly unable to sit through another parenthesis, “do ask him where the King’s Road is.”

“Ah —? The King’s Road? Just so! Quite right! Can you, as a matter of fact, my good man, tell us where, in relation to our present position, the King’s Road exactly is?”

“Ye’re in it,” said the aged face at the window."


http://snipr.com/1nr7l


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 01, 2007, 06:34:39 PM
Harrie, while there may be something to the stereotype of men not asking directions, I think the thing about not reading maps is dead wrong.  In fact, the most compulsive map readers I know are male, and I've even heard of studies that show that men are more prone to obsessive geographical study.  The only time men don't look at maps is when they're convinced they've already memorized said map by poring over it for hours beforehand.

barton, it's a joke. 

madupont, I read maps too.  But maybe I should warn you that occasionally the hubby says "I'm so glad I married a butch woman."   He means it in the nicest of ways, I am sure.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: jbottle on July 01, 2007, 06:57:52 PM
The only thing worse than not using a map or stopping to ask directions, is when the sigboth hit me (on the arm) when we were lost in Charlotte, NC, where I eventually used my sense of direction to get us to dinner about thirty minutes late.  When she said "What ARE you DO-ING???  JUST TURN AROUND!!!" I said "SHUT...THE...FUCK...UP..."

"Don't talk to ME THAT WAYYYY [whack]!!!"

Rinse.  Repeat.

Not a good scene, but I personally do not take driving or direction advice from females, and I know that makes me an asshole, but that's something I have come to terms with, I still love myself even though I am an asshole who doesn't listen to girls who talk while I am driving and trying to figure something out...the yelling only exacerbates the problem and makes me lose focus from reorienting myself, so I felt justified in using everthing but the "C"-word against her...


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 01, 2007, 07:02:25 PM
Ah, my experience with two husbands, one of whom would never ask directions or consult a map either. I read the maps and he ignored me and we got lost a lot. When the gas was almost out, he'd stop at a gas station and finally ask for directions as if he didn't need them.

Second husband. Improvement in many ways. Does not read maps. Knows I can read them well. Drives, with me holding the map, and when he's lost expects me to find a way out of our dilemma before I can figure out enough landmarks to find where we are on the map. He will stop pretty quickly and tell me to go in a store and get directions, then argues with me until HE goes in and gets the same directions.

Men are a luxury!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 01, 2007, 08:07:37 PM
jbottle,

So you use that term too.  Abbeviated to sigboth. I use the whole term; significant bother. It only made sense to me.  One can always bother to change the significant bother.

That's all I have to say. Other than that, no comment.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on July 01, 2007, 08:11:41 PM
Henry James Lost in The New York Times

http://snipr.com/1nr7f

I was having my tea and crumpets as usual, dearest Edith, this morning while meandering as usual my meandering way as I usually do every meandering morning through the charming New York Times whilst for some strange reason I became rather queerly diverted—or perhaps I should say I took a dreadfully wrong detour, dearest Edith—and low and behold—there in the midst of my rather meanderingly maddening divertimento of literary divagations—I somehow without any literary forethought or intention whatsoever found myself not only diverted from my original rather “meander where thou may” somewhat modest goal but—well, surely it was those infernally seductive meandering crossword puzzles that undoubtedly having already confused my poor put-upon meandering mind—“What mind?” my dear Edith, I can hear you saying in that charmingly no-nonsense cosmopolitan way of yours—but by then it was quite obvious—the fact is whatever or whoever or whichever was my intended meandering goal—with or without helpful directions or a heavenly godsend map—was something I now forgot totally and completely—finding myself impossibly flummoxed and strangely at a loss for words—was it perhaps classical music or was it opera?—but then that’s being fallacious of me since as you know, dearest Edith, there is one fact about me that is indubitably and without a doubt fictionally true—and that is I’m never without a loss for words no matter how lost or meanderingly forgetful I am—when suddenly, my dear, I had the strangest sensation of a rather frighteningly new maudlin meandering miasma taking over my mind—worse than I’ve ever felt before—unless it was that night I stumbled across that sinisterly handsome Peter Quint and poor lovely naïve Deborah Kerr—there in that  damp louche castle tower that shockingly dark and stormy night long ago—yes, it was simply awful, my dear Edith!!!—talk about a simply frightfully hair-raising and terrifying “turn of the screw” experience, my dear…      




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on July 01, 2007, 09:21:08 PM
poetry in mortis:
http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2007/06/dieku_1.html


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on July 01, 2007, 10:26:01 PM
Some Booze Haikus

http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2007/06/dieku_1.html

Wonderful 5-7-5 syllable haikus comprised of snapshots of tombstones called "DieKu", mysteriously appearing on the streets of New York recently. Enigmatically penned by "Nick Beef - NYC"

Corona Brewer
Noble Golden Beer Skillman
Wetmore Lips Aleman


____________________________________________


Coors Silver Bullets
Ridgeway Very Bad Elf Ale
Naughty Nellie’s Ale

Pyramid Snowcap
Rogue Hazelnut Brown Nectar
Rogue Shakespeare Stout Ale

Mad River Steelhead
Pike Brewing Kilt Lifter Ale
Hair of the Dog Rose

Hoppy Holidaze
Marin Brew San Quentin Stout
Monchsof Schwarzbier

Orkney Skull Splitter
Mendocino Black Eye Stout
Oskar Blues Old Chub

Kodiak Brown Ale
Midnight Sun Arctic Devil
Orval Trappist Ale

Hairy Eyeball Ale
Great Divide Old Ruffian
Full Sail Slipknot Ale




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 02, 2007, 09:34:37 AM
I. M. Pei beer freebie p.m. - I!

(ale palindrome to follow soon)

Henry James must have been a pragmatist, like his brother Willy.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 02, 2007, 09:35:52 AM
Ale map, Pamela?



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 02, 2007, 09:41:18 AM
If there is an ale map, I am soooo the cartographer. 

barton, is this what confinement has done to you? 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 02, 2007, 09:55:06 AM
No,  I was just drawn in by the chance to construct a palindrome that neatly dovetailed two themes from prior posts:  booze and maps.

I'm on foot today.  This isn't a Jimmy Stewart/Rear Window scenario, by any means.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 02, 2007, 09:56:44 AM
Though it would be fun to open a Mexican restaurant with a famous actors theme to the menu, and serve up a "Raymond Burr-ito."



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 02, 2007, 10:01:32 AM
Though it would be fun to open a Mexican restaurant with a famous actors theme to the menu, and serve up a "Raymond Burr-ito."



An overstuffed burrito, I would guess.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on July 02, 2007, 12:42:13 PM
http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Beppo on July 02, 2007, 03:52:23 PM
Me and a workmate keep having these amateurish discussions about economics brought on by the massive rise in house prices in Britain over the last few years with us both agreeing that it is virtually impossible for an average wage first time buyer to buy a house now. But no matter how hard we try we can't begin to explain it to ourselves. It's not as if salaries have risen the same way. I wonder if anyone knows any good books on this subject?   


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 02, 2007, 04:04:07 PM
Greetings From Asbury Park, NJ‘  early performances with Gus Van Sant at The Stone Pony

" a landscape seen from that most essential machine for American living, the car." In reverse you could look at it as a jeep with a large white dog; essential equipment when doing the essential grocery shopping at the greengrocers in Coltsneck, N.J.

Neither the Boss,Bosie,Baron Corvo,or John Julius Norwich would attempt to write haiku in 17 syllables of English for GodSake.

Gee I moved from South Africa to Indonesia to Russ-ia back to S. Africa
to Brazil to S.Africa to Saudi Arabia back to Russ-ia to the Netherlands
and now I'm going to France because all good Americans go to Paris when they die.
(who said that?) Man, do I love map 129, the truth will set you free, who say dat?

Why the Uranian poets will moon you.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Beppo on July 02, 2007, 04:52:02 PM
I don't know how easy or effective it would be or if it is possible for a full-member to say such things but these books forums mimic the NYT forums as they were post-slaughter. There were a few forums that existed before the slaughter that in the end weren't getting much posts but might well take off here in the exiles forum. I was thinking of a forum for literature that stems from the non-English/Spanish speaking world. It would offer another option for reading fiction. Maybe promote a situation where there are a few discussions going on at the same time. The one forum that used to deal with this kind of thing (thoughts on forums) was called Books Forum Suggestions. What would ideal Books Forums look like is, I think, the question that lurks below this post? Also there were forums for haiku, poetry, Shakespeare. There are others here who are better qualified to speak on these things so maybe they will add their thoughts.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Beppo on July 02, 2007, 05:19:40 PM
The best holiday I ever had was motoring to Italy via France and Switzerland. I wasn't driving but sitting in the car reading the map. We were supposed to drive round London via the circular M25 but ended up driving straight through the heart of London during what felt like rush hour. The problem was that we were towing a caravan. And the car wasn't really equipped for all that stopping and starting. It's one thing to be reading a map leisurely dreaming of sunnier shores and another thing to have an irate driver grimacing at you, pouring over your every word as he navigates across 5 lanes with his home town "We come from..." winking at other motorists who were no doubt thinking "They come from...", yes that explains it. We hit the gradients of Switzerland confidently but it was misplaced.       


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 02, 2007, 08:06:07 PM
Don't know of any good books on the real estate topic, Beppo, but I had decided I would never be able to buy something on my own too.  I got a better job and now I've been enjoying my new home for about 2 months.  And I got in without paying a cent - even got my earnest money back at closing.  I'm in America, though, so there may be no comparison.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on July 02, 2007, 09:05:15 PM
Ray’s Boat House Weekend

Skinny Dip Summer
Maritime Imperial
Alaskan Amber

Mirror Pond Pale Brew
Missoula Moose Drool Brown Ale
Deschutes Black Butte Porter





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on July 02, 2007, 10:07:47 PM
Ray’s Boat House Weekend

Skinny Dip Summer
Maritime Imperial
Alaskan Amber

Mirror Pond Pale Brew
Missoula Moose Drool Brown Ale
Deschutes Black Butte Porter

Did you spend your afternoon in a liquor shoppe?  There's one about a mile from my house that advertises 376 kinds of beer....






Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on July 02, 2007, 11:00:44 PM
Laurie -- No, just a lazy summer Sat afternoon at Ray's Boat House sampling microbrews and chatting about Turn of the Screw with a couple of literary friends. I stumbled across some of James' notes on where the young Miles character in the novel came from -- a ghostly tale told to him by the Archbishop of Canterbury. But apparently there's more to it than that...

http://www.nku.edu/~emily/rauch.html


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on July 02, 2007, 11:03:46 PM
Me and a workmate keep having these amateurish discussions about economics brought on by the massive rise in house prices in Britain over the last few years with us both agreeing that it is virtually impossible for an average wage first time buyer to buy a house now. But no matter how hard we try we can't begin to explain it to ourselves. It's not as if salaries have risen the same way. I wonder if anyone knows any good books on this subject?   

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=465517&in_page_id=1770

200,000 homes given to migrants

The number of state-subsidised homes given to foreign families is four times higher than previously claimed, ministers admitted yesterday.

They confirmed that 200,000 citizens of foreign countries hold the keys to council or housing association homes.
The figure means that one in 25 of the five million state sector homes is occupied by those who are not British citizens.
Six weeks ago Downing Street gave the impression that one in every 100 social homes is occupied by a foreigner.
The latest figures, confirmed yesterday by the Department of Communities, deepened the row over which families get social housing.

Culture Minister Margaret Hodge said in May it was unfair that newly-arrived migrants should jump to the top of the housing queue. She said this had created tensions among working class white families.

Since the 1970s houses and flats have been handed out on the basis of "need", replacing the waiting list system which gave local families homes once they had waited long enough.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on July 02, 2007, 11:09:12 PM

Why the Uranian poets will moon you.


full moons & half-moons—
those uranian poets
know how to do it


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 03, 2007, 02:02:56 AM
Don O. Tremove -

Did you ever figure out why you weren't reading Desdemona's posts?  Apparently, if you click the X under someone's screen name, you put them on your ignore list.  There should be an X box where the "Quote" link usually is.  If you click that, you'll restore her.

I'm moving to Chicago.  Where the fog apparently comes in on little cat's feet, or something.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 03, 2007, 02:10:07 AM
Hog Butcher for the World,
     Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat,
     Player with Railroads and the Nation’s Freight Handler;
     Stormy, husky, brawling,
     City of the Big Shoulders:

They tell me you are wicked and I believe them, for I
     have seen your painted women under the gas lamps
     luring the farm boys.
And they tell me you are crooked and I answer: Yes, it
     is true I have seen the gunman kill and go free to
     kill again.
And they tell me you are brutal and my reply is: On the
     faces of women and children I have seen the marks
     of wanton hunger.
And having answered so I turn once more to those who
     sneer at this my city, and I give them back the sneer
     and say to them:
Come and show me another city with lifted head singing
     so proud to be alive and coarse and strong and cunning.
Flinging magnetic curses amid the toil of piling job on
     job, here is a tall bold slugger set vivid against the
     little soft cities;

Fierce as a dog with tongue lapping for action, cunning
     as a savage pitted against the wilderness,
          Bareheaded,
          Shoveling,
          Wrecking,
          Planning,
          Building, breaking, rebuilding,
Under the smoke, dust all over his mouth, laughing with
     white teeth,
Under the terrible burden of destiny laughing as a young
     man laughs,
Laughing even as an ignorant fighter laughs who has
     never lost a battle,
Bragging and laughing that under his wrist is the pulse.
     and under his ribs the heart of the people,
               Laughing!
Laughing the stormy, husky, brawling laughter of
     Youth, half-naked, sweating, proud to be Hog
     Butcher, Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat, Player with
     Railroads and Freight Handler to the Nation.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 03, 2007, 02:21:00 AM
You'll like it. Old Town on Friday or Saturday nights in summer. Sundays at the Art Institute. Go to the Palmer House. Go to the Opera House in the Fall (go to Ravenna now).

  Oktoberfest at 17 West Adams     The Berghoff    These are the people who made the beer for the Chicago World's Fair pavillion. 
 
 Mark your calendar: This September 12th, 13th & 14th! 
 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 03, 2007, 04:48:18 AM
To Urania

Everything has its limits, including sorrow.
A windowpane stalls a stare. Nor does a grille abandon
a leaf. One may rattle the keys, gurgle down a swallow.
Loneliness cubes a man at random.
A camel sniffs at the rail with a resentful nostril;
a perspective cuts emptiness deep and even.
And what is space anyway if not the
body's absence at every given
point? That's why Urania's older than sister Clio!
In daylight or with the soot-rich lantern,
you see the globe's pate free of any bio,
you see she hides nothing, unlike the latter.
There they are, blueberry-laden forests,
rivers where the folk with bare hands catch sturgeon
or the towns in whose soggy phone books
you are starring no longer; farther eastward surge on
brown mountain ranges; wild mares carousing
in tall sedge; the cheekbones get yellower
as they turn numerous. And still farther east, steam dreadnoughts or cruisers,
and the expanse grows blue like lace underwear.

Joseph Brodsky (1981)



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 03, 2007, 09:47:30 AM
Whiskey, my first and favorite big city.  When my parents hit the road, we had Denver, St. Louis, Dallas, and Chicago all within roughly a day's drive.  Most of the time, we picked Chicago.  I love the waterfront, the Shedd, the Art Institute, the burb with all the FL Wright houses, the U. Chicago campus, the Museum of Science and Industry, etc.  And it's a friendly town, in a way that seems to me rare in a large city.



 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 03, 2007, 09:51:30 AM
It is also a good deal more expensive than Cleveland, at least in terms of housing.

I look forward to the pizza.  My wife looks forward to the Miracle Mile.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 03, 2007, 09:55:37 AM
A cool lake breeze in summer will cost ya, mos def.  Seems like the north shore is really spendy, but I have friends of a friend in Naperville, to the west, and it's quite affordable.  Depends on your tolerance for taking the train.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 03, 2007, 09:57:10 AM
I've visited Chicago on a handful of occasions.  As an architect, Chicago is a treasure trove of early modern American buildings, ranging from Louis Sullivan's Oak Park to the Monandock Buidling to Mies' Lakeshore residential towers and the IIT campus.  It was considered the hub of the modern movement at the time.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 03, 2007, 09:59:31 AM
Whoops, meant to include Louis Sullivan's Carson Pirie Scott Department Store.  Oak Park being famous for Frank Lloyd Wright's early houses.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 03, 2007, 10:09:10 AM
And the Blackhawks might even have half a team this year.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: jbottle on July 03, 2007, 12:35:09 PM
"As an architect, Chicago is a treasure trove of early modern American buildings..."

Chicago is an architect, just kidding, do it all the time myself.  Of course you meant:  "As an architect, I find Chicago..."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 03, 2007, 12:43:25 PM
If Chicago can be a hog butcher and stacker of wheat, I don't see what rules it out as an architect.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 03, 2007, 12:58:30 PM
whiskey -

When are you guys set to move?  I'm sure job opportunities are much better there, in spite of the increase in living expenses.  Anyway, best of luck to you and your wife - moves are stressful, I find, even when they're well-planned.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 03, 2007, 01:08:05 PM
Yeah, well-planned.  Accepted the job yesterday.  I start a week Monday.  Fortunately, a great relo package.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 03, 2007, 01:33:34 PM
Wow!  I am so happy for you, Steve!  Congratulations!!  I have a cousin who lives there - she's an officer with Prudential, if I'm thinking correctly - anyway, it's one of the big insurance companies there. She a girl from Pecos who made good in the big city.  She LOVES it there - lives in Evanston.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 03, 2007, 01:41:22 PM

Whisky, I'm guessing your new employer is happily unaware of your penchant for goofing off on the Internet all day.  Or, for all I know, "Superhero" membership at Melba is a shining star on your resume.  In the former case, my silence is easily purchased with a Chicago-style hotdog.  Or some pro bono work -- it's a suit involving the neighbor's cat and a bottle of seltzer water.  Piece of cake.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 03, 2007, 02:25:44 PM
Whiskey, thanks for the "ignore" info.  Didn't know we had it here.  I accidently put her on ignore when I clicked that red X .  I thought it would reveal the picture that is supposed to be there (I just see a blank box).  Anyway, I'm back on track now.  Desdemona is again revealed from head to toe.

You didn't like retirement? 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: kitinkaboodle on July 03, 2007, 02:32:26 PM
Just recently returned from a short visit (my first) to the Second City, enjoyed a game at Wrigley Field and saw Wicked not much more time for anything else, people there seemed great...
I'd go back in a heartbeat.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 03, 2007, 02:37:04 PM
Bad news for weinie lovers everywhere:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19570566/wid/11915773?GT1=10212


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Beppo on July 03, 2007, 03:49:07 PM
Desdemona, Pugetopolis - thanks.

I said to my colleague yesterday - I have some people on it - fear not: soon we will understand our predicament. He came back to me today saying so, how did you get on? I was tempted to swing a theory by him about involving China, call centres and offshoring (outsourcing) but he deserves better. Tomorrow, I said, tomorrow.

Desdemona - so do you have a garden?





 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 03, 2007, 04:07:54 PM
Yes, I do, Beppo.  I have such a beautiful lot - it is on a steep slope that has been terraced with native rock hardscaping.  It is heavily wooded on each side for privacy and I have lentana in full bloom, a lovely little pear tree, and grapes, among other things.

I had taken it for granted what the lowest amount an acceptable house would be, but when I did Internet searches in an area that is admittedly very far out from Atlanta, I was shocked to find that prices were quite low.  I lucked out because I found a little house on almost half an acre that had burned down and was completely rebuilt with everything brand new.  It's not the Hamptons or anything, but I am very happy with it.

I am aware of the dreadful price of real estate in England, though, especially in the London area.  I worked in London for 3 weeks once, and one of the ladies I met commuted from Manchester so she could afford a home of her own.  She lived in some little bed and board during the week in London, I believe.  I know you must know people who do that, too, but it's not for everyone.

Anyway, deepest sympathy - I know how frustrating it is to want your own place and to feel you'll never be able to achieve that goal.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 03, 2007, 04:09:25 PM
Desdemona, veggie corn sticks are known as weinies?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 03, 2007, 04:31:23 PM
Ooooops, Donot.  I misread it - thought it said corn dogs.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Beppo on July 03, 2007, 05:06:59 PM
Desdemona

That all sounds just great - good for you. Hope you enjoy your garden and wooded surroundings. 



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Beppo on July 03, 2007, 06:01:54 PM
Whiskey

That's quite an inspired decision you seem to have taken there. Combined with the Sandburg poem I can almost feel the energy oozing from the screen.

Wow!  :o

Do you have many books to shift?

 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 04, 2007, 12:56:10 AM
It is also a good deal more expensive than Cleveland, at least in terms of housing.

I look forward to the pizza.  My wife looks forward to the Miracle Mile.


You will love the square, thick Sicilian pizza.  I think, you meant the Magnificent Mile?

Don't know how I could have forgotten the Museum of Science and Industry.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 04, 2007, 01:00:19 AM
oh,Ps. whiskeypriest -- those little cat feet fog-outs are mostly an Autumn happening although they may begin as early as late summer, in the evenings; sometimes again in Spring with the warm-up. Slow driving is required for this weather but Chicago drivers drive like maniacs. It occurs to me you are going to arrive in the midst, or middle, between the Hiliaryites and the Obama contenders for the final campaign.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 04, 2007, 01:01:50 AM
dzimas, re:#619   

Joseph Brodsky was the favorite poet of my brother Tom.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 04, 2007, 01:07:53 AM
One more for whiskeypriest (this is not a threat, this is an experimental theatre group)

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRiyXS6gKx8

In Chicago.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 04, 2007, 03:15:27 AM
Thanks for the grammar note, jbottle.  I can see now how that could be confusing.  Maybe Joe Chicago.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 04, 2007, 08:20:59 AM
Whiskey

That's quite an inspired decision you seem to have taken there. Combined with the Sandburg poem I can almost feel the energy oozing from the screen.

Wow!  :o

Do you have many books to shift?

 
Fortunately, I never took most of them out of the boxes the last time we moved.

Onward and upward.  I will be oppressing the working man on behalf of a major airline.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 04, 2007, 09:54:12 AM
It is also a good deal more expensive than Cleveland, at least in terms of housing.

I look forward to the pizza.  My wife looks forward to the Miracle Mile.


You will love the square, thick Sicilian pizza. 

You can call that big, doughy, overloaded concoction what you will, but it is not pizza.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 04, 2007, 11:57:49 AM
Ah, now I remember!

I was in Chicago once. On a flight from Green Bay home to Richmond, I did a stopover in Chicago and treated myself to a wonderful piece of pizza. It was covered with everything you could want and never think of, and the dough was thick enough to eat the large piece out of hand and not need the plastic fork provided.

Compared to my one undersized bag of pretzels on the flight, it was a culinary treat!




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 04, 2007, 04:30:05 PM
Ah, harrie, you come from Jersey? or somewhere East of Lake Michigan?

Notice, weezo says she is coming from Green Bay; home of Lombardi's Packers.

By luck, for some reason, a Sicilian family moved into my area and opened Palermo (which, I hope nobody takes offense, is better than having your pizza made by Mexicans in franchises to serve "foreign food" to religious conservatives whose politics has a similar bent). Much better. Otherwise I prefer to make my own.  When one gets too remote to understand the politics of Philadelphia's northern suburbs compared to the people who really run things from the South side and have long gone further south into Delaware, you sometimes do not have a choice between Sicilian and Neapolitan pizza when only Mennonite pizza is your choice: heavy on the onions, sparse on everything else.

We are coming into that time of year when everything contributes to the best ingredients for making your own, which is better than working in a place where the ovens are a 500 degrees, although it does add pounds.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 04, 2007, 04:40:26 PM
Maddie,

Perhaps I should ask this on Food Matters instead of here, but tell me what you put on your pizza that is dependent on the season? Feel free to reply on the appropriate thread.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 04, 2007, 04:49:36 PM
Ah, harrie, you come from Jersey? or somewhere East of Lake Michigan?

Connecticut, near New Haven.  It makes me kind of contractually obligated to set the record straight on what constitutes real (ie, Neapolitan, thin crust) pizza.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 04, 2007, 08:50:04 PM
whiskey -

Again, congratulations - "Super Hero Member"!  Woweee!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 04, 2007, 09:08:41 PM
Harrie, out of curiosity since I enjoy both thin crust pizza sometimes and thick crust pizza at others, about equally, why do you consider thin crust pizza "real" pizza>


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 04, 2007, 09:24:39 PM
Harrie, out of curiosity since I enjoy both thin crust pizza sometimes and thick crust pizza at others, about equally, why do you consider thin crust pizza "real" pizza>


Weezo, it's a regional thing.  People in/from New Haven swear up and down that New Haven is the birthplace of American pizza.  A big chunk of immigrants from Amalfi settled in New Haven, bringing with them the Neapolitan, thin crust pie.  New Haven is also the home of Pepe's, Sally's, and Modern -- in the eyes of some, the Holy Trinity of pizza. 

The only proper pie has a thin crust, slightly charred around the edges, with not too much sauce and not too much mozz (pronounced "mootz", aka mozzarella).  I hope you realize I'm saying this tongue in cheek; though there are people, some of whom I know personally, who might fight to the death defending the honor of their New Haven pizza.

In real life, I believe that what a person eats is up to them. But as a former New Haven resident, and current resident of the surrounding area, I'm compelled to have certain knee-jerk reactions to certain pizza talk.  Maybe I've been microchipped or something.

But I will say that living for a year in South Carolina -- where pizzas regularly had cheddar (shudder) on them and mozz was almost impossible to find in the grocery store -- made me really appreciate traditional New Haven pizza.  Our first meal upon moving back was a pie at the place down the street, and it was comparable to .....maybe the s-e-x word.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 05, 2007, 02:28:08 AM
Well, for starters, to make a compromise between New Haven Amalfi Neapolitan and Chicago style Sicilian pizza, you opt out and do what the French do. You take a piece of bread, by which I mean the entire sliced through loaf(horizontally) either the bottom or the top --or both, and lay that out on a baking pan with low sides.

Then you slice the onions, many, which are still Vidalias at this season of the year, as thinly as possible, any way you can do it, halving the onion, whatever. And you take a saute pan deep enough to hold your cache of onion slices in which you put some olive oil or some grape-seed oil, which is good for you, on very low, you use a long-handled fork or something whatever you've got on hand, maybe tongs and swish the onions around evenly and pop the cover on.  You are sweating the onions, whether you know it or not. Eventually,as you check them out as you go along, to be sure they do not stick and stir them up again, you add some French thyme from your garden or some dried sprinkled over the top lightly,let the onions continue to carmelize golden by checking on them under their lid. When you finally take it off, and say,"done", the onions are distributed on the loaf and peppered and sprinkled with cheese, gruyere is fine, but so is asiago or mixed Italian cheese shreds.

This is much better than that stuff that comes out of boxes from the freezer. Although you have thyme with onions which is natural, if you want to break the law--home grown marjoram is  the natural food additive to cheese. At this season of the year it tends to form little balls of tight buds with a scrim of white as it is about to bloom; I usually snip a bunch of these off with my finger-nails and get them into the cheese by layering cheese one, marjoram two, another cheese three.

Of course it occurs to  you that having gone this far, if the Canadian tomatoes are in your neighborhood,you can slice those atop the "pizza bread" (it has been too cool and rainy to produce early tomatoes regionally except in the hot-house). If the cheese was very mild, I often opt for a squiggle of anchovy paste on or near the tomato slices. Place in the oven until melt down.  Eat with some of those small French Olives, I forget the name, but they are black, and have a glass of chilled white wine.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 05, 2007, 10:36:19 AM
This belongs on the food forum, but as long as I'm here:  anchovy paste or anchovies on a pizza is a crime against humanity.  (not to mention anchovies) 

All a pizza requires atop the thick and chewy crust:  cheese, olive oil, basil, oregano, garlic, and onion.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 05, 2007, 02:36:49 PM
You aren't Italian are you, barton?  Or even Sardinian? or, Corsican? French?  What I hate are the gigantic capers packed in salt.  But,  hey, while still on the subject, Even the Germans would take two anchovies and cross them atop their raw steak tartare(hamburger raw, ah, Brecht) or  the raw egg that sometimes accompanied it . As I've just finished off half a sandwich of braunschweiger wrapped with a slice of bacon, you know where I'm coming from. I think it depends which century you were born in, really, as to what food is still available to eat. Maybe in a decade or two, nothing? Who knows, enjoy it while you've got it


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 06, 2007, 07:56:29 AM
The pizza sucks in Lithuania.  Some enterprising Lithuanian-American billed her pizza as "Chicago-style," and it was the worst I had tasted during my time in Vilnius.  The restaurants come up with all sorts of unique combinations, which I guess satisfy the local market, but leaves me scratching my head as I look through the menu.  The end result, I've sworn off pizza.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 06, 2007, 09:45:22 AM
Mad:  I'm not Corsican or Sardinian, but I have been exiled on Elba for a while.

Seriously, my only thing about pizza is the avoidance of the various excesses described here.  Harrie's mention of cheddar made me shudder, too.  And a lot of places think a heavy application of salty sauce will....I don't know what they are thinking...maybe they want to sell more beverages?  And many parts of the U.S. seem to think Italian means tomato sauce on everything.  I'm just saying great things can happen when one gets away from the convention of a tomato sauce.  Some flavors blossom in its absence.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 06, 2007, 10:01:27 AM
I love a good white pie myself; but tomato sauce is a great source of lycopene (or lycopenes?), so it's hard to write it off completely.  (Too much tomato sauce, like too much of anything, just makes a mess.)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 06, 2007, 10:05:11 AM
I think that pizza, is basically, a round of bread, a slather of tomato sauce, and a topping of shredded cheese. Anything else is gilding the lily, and without tomato sauce and cheese, I'm not even sure you want to call it pizza. Years ago, we frequented a pizza place - it was a franchise and I can't recall the name. It offered up a variety of pizza's, but all had the basic tomato sauce on them, even the ham and pineapple, which was a favorite. The place was run by an Egyptian family, and one of the things not on the menu were potato wedges, dredged in the pizza flour and baked. They were delicious, but not on the franchise menu, so you had to catch it when the family made them for themselves and would share them with customers present at the time. The place also featured nightly live music, a nice couple - he played the banjo and other stringed instruments very well, and she played the tamborine and sang reasonably well. She was from Hawaii and a Scorpio like myself, and made all her own gowns. He was a displaced NASA engineer who was enjoying his retirement playing music. She was about 20 years his junior.

Richmond was not at the time, much on live entertainment since they still did not allow folks to buy mixed drinks in public. All you could get were beer and wine. Beer does go well with pizza, and, since it was a family atmosphere, we could take the boys with us and enjoy a night out every week.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 06, 2007, 04:51:46 PM
Print on Demand

I am curious what the above mean on my contract as an author on what is my first published book under my own name in the paper realm. I have asked the publisher to explain the term. Do they print one book at a time? Do they have a series of short runs of publication? I can imagine that with computerization, it would be easier to fill an order of say 5-10 books on demand, but I'm not sure that is what is meant.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 06, 2007, 06:31:43 PM
I may have misread, because I didn't really "see" the term and mistook it as a title to your post!  But, if this is published on-line, the person, who wants a copy, pays "on demand". In other words they present it when ordered.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 06, 2007, 06:36:54 PM
No, you are right. You are talking about printing.  Let's see if I can explain this a bit better. I just talked to the printer. When they downsize an operation,they may opt to print digitally on a high speed printer, from a text that is in the computer. This allows them to print small batches of 5-10 books at a time.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 06, 2007, 07:09:50 PM
Maddie,

That's what I thought it meant, but I wanted to be clear. I remember back in the 90's when I wrote a chapter in a three book set, it had a first printing, then went into a second printing. It didn't concern me enough to wait to sign the contract. Now, to wait to see what the book looks like when its done. The illustrator may take as long as until December to finish his work, so I guess it will be after the first of the year until I see it in the flesh for the first time.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 07, 2007, 10:01:42 PM
Weezo, you were asking about this in Immigration yesterday,etc.. Here's another angle that came up in that discussion but just barely, touched upon, that's it. Here will be a first rate contribution.

http://blackvoices.aol.com/black_news/headlines_features/canvas_news_articles/_a/spike-lee/20070627111109990002


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 07, 2007, 10:16:41 PM
Maddie,

I look forward to seeing that movie when it comes on television. I tend to think that black soldiers over sadly overlooked. There were black union soldiers, and the movie Glory is a fictionalized version of their story. But there were black confederates, and I don't think there are more than 2-3 books and no movies about them. There were black soldiers in WWI and WWII. My next-door neighbor was in WWII, but all he got to do was clean officers uniforms and serve officers meals. But he came home to his family - it was a safe job in post-Pearl Harbor Hawaii.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 08, 2007, 02:32:34 AM
That is really the best kind,  weezo, he was very lucky. At the time of incipient Gulf War,my son had just completed his time in service and had come to visit me. When I saw him off from the airport, as he returned home, I noticed a bunch of kids run past me and was startled to realize they were not what they appeared to be, some kind of Girl Guides(like the British) and Eagle Scouts in desert issue with flat shade hats, who looked as if they had just  recently finished high school because I'd seen an awful lot of youngsters on university campus for more than a decade. They seemed extremely naive in comparison. After that, when ever I went grocery shopping in those areas off Route One where the people from Trenton come out to the small shopping malls , I found myself telling check-out girls and guys that if they had anyone at home who was considering signing up rashly, as my son had when jobs were slow and he and his buddies were at the stage of  talking each other into joining them in ill considered moves, " tell them, to stay out of this one ". I am even more convinced now but I think that I learned this from my father from the very beginning, as he'd walked for miles from a very small village to get himself into the Navy before he had finished high school  and lied about his age.  After which he complained to get out, and his mother came and retrieved him; she had already lost a son  in the 1st World War and gone overseas to see his grave. My father finished with his "dumb,dull" school years, and then worked his way through med.school. My brothers were very lucky that way also, the timing was such that there was no reason for them to be in service; except for my youngest brother, of course,since he was the most like his Dad, and he went off to see the world at the right time without being in harm's way. I hope my family continues  to bear this out.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 09, 2007, 08:49:20 AM
Well, today is whiskey's first day on his new job.  We'll see how long it is before he posts here.  Hey whiskey!  Holla!  ;D


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 09, 2007, 10:08:40 AM
Well, today is whiskey's first day on his new job.  We'll see how long it is before he posts here.  Hey whiskey!  Holla!  ;D
You are one week early.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 09, 2007, 11:00:52 AM
Oh. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 09, 2007, 11:11:41 AM
Why is navel lint always bluish-gray, no matter what color clothes you wear?



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 09, 2007, 11:21:55 AM
Well, today is whiskey's first day on his new job.  We'll see how long it is before he posts here.  Hey whiskey!  Holla!  ;D
You are one week early.

Does that mean we can't have the party yet?  Because the caterer's coming, the band's setting up, and the police have already put out the sawhorses.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 10, 2007, 11:32:23 AM
Sure, duck the question.  Admit it:  you have no idea.  It's a mystery.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 10, 2007, 11:55:55 AM
barton -

I have no idea what you're talking about - my navel lint is whiter than newly-driven snow.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on July 10, 2007, 05:18:49 PM
Lifting titles:
http://www.povonline.com/2002/News060102.htm#060202a
http://www.bookreporter.com/reviews/0446690392.asp


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 11, 2007, 07:35:30 AM
Dainu Svente, is a festival of songs held each year in Vilnius.  A three-day event that brings Lithuanian choral and dancing groups from around the country, and every four years from around the world.  It was a pretty soggy affair this year, as all that singing and dancing seemed to awaken Perkunas, the great god of thunder.  My son had to endure three days of rain with repititions before the final big event Sunday night with over 17,000 persons assembled in one choral group underneath an old Soviet bandshell in the main city park, singing a wide array of traditional and not-so-traditional folk songs.  Lithuania has one of the largest collections of folk songs in the world, and it is part of UNESCO's living heritage.  The event was carried out during the Soviet years as well.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 11, 2007, 10:02:55 AM
"Lithuania has one of the largest collections of folk songs in the world...."

Our nation has always been somewhat envious of Lithuania and its rich supply of folk songs.  I remember, in grade school, when we had exhausted the possibilities of Little Brown Jug and Oh, Susanna, we would have to fall back on Lithuania in order to finish out the music hour.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 11, 2007, 10:44:44 AM
Somehow it is hard for me to picture you singing Lithuanian folk songs, barton, but here is a sampler,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrOg3x0H9Qs&mode=related&search=

a bit stylized perhaps.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 11, 2007, 11:14:26 AM
 :-\


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 11, 2007, 11:31:28 AM
dzimas,

I like the little bounce, that recovers from the first bounce as the guys move laterally stage right.  I used to do a lot of this stuff on Saturday nights on the South Side of an industrial valley in the Midwest of America where the dancers simply got together to keep the folk traditions alive.  But this is interesting to see how the influence in reverse has spread out because I'm sure that I saw a little Jerome Robbins choreography break out in the background as we came to the finale of this number; the shooting out of the arms to the side from the shoulder. Looked like Billy the Kid.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 11, 2007, 11:43:12 AM
Dzimas

http://www.naxosdirect.com/title/8.550282

Wrong choreographer. Eugene Loring.  I actually saw it done by American Ballet Theater and I've got it mixed up in my mind with Martha Graham which is probably Appalachian Spring. But since that was sixty years ago, what can I say? Scratch Jerome Robbins, his guys were probably in Navy  uniforms but I'll have to check to find out why the choreography reminds me of his work.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 11, 2007, 11:48:45 AM
Another link:

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/copland/acintro03.html

which gives you some idea, since Rodeo was commissioned for choreographer Agnes de Mille, sister of Cecil B. de Mille, how this style of dance moved out into the commercial theater and THE MOVIES!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 11, 2007, 12:03:07 PM
DZIMAS,

One of my teachers was Olga Bielinska who, like most of the girls teaching children for a living, would not only audition for the chorus of visiting theater productions but, streak off in the winter to work as extras in the big ice-skating extravaganzas, following in the skate tracks of Sonia Heine.  Most of the girls did this to keep their muscles limber, as they had to be independent of their own teacher in order for all to make a living. Our teacher in common was a freckled redhead  who had caught the eye of Dylan Thomas.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 12, 2007, 03:12:51 AM
Nytempsperdu,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 12, 2007, 03:49:26 AM
I wasn't taking barton literally.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 12, 2007, 03:54:04 AM
Maybe I should have linked this video instead,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2ggCc3THi4

albeit not Lithuanian in character.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 12, 2007, 04:46:34 AM
Maddie, the folk dances on which Cholina drew in creating her stage production, Zmonems, or People, are much heavier footed, as I'm sure you imagine, but the basic movements are similar.  She's perhaps the most interesting choreographer in Vilnius at the moment.  She did a wonderful tribute to Marlene Dietrich, in Songs of Women,

http://www.ach.lt/EN/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: thanatopsy on July 12, 2007, 08:05:45 AM
HAPPY ORANGE DAY!!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 12, 2007, 10:00:40 AM
Val Kilmer is expecting a big crowd.

Congrats on more temps perdu, Ny!

Just finished reading The Stranger, about which I should post somewhere else no doubt, but I do want to say that I find part II, the ridiculous trial of Meursault, having interesting parallels to the trial of Seinfeld and his friends.  The absurd efforts to prosecute Meursault on the basis of bad character, rather than deal with the facts of the murder of the Arab, seemed like they mighth have provided Larry David with some inspiration.  Meursault drank cafe au lait in the presence of his mother's coffiin!  Meursault went on a date!  Meursault went to see a film the following evening and IT WAS A COMEDY!  J'accuse!



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 12, 2007, 12:10:00 PM
BOCAJUNIORS:

if you´re not strolling down Bondi Beach (Aus.) or worse webdead, this should bring you back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7curI97XilY


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on July 12, 2007, 12:38:53 PM
Just finished reading The Stranger, [...]
Just after George W. finished reading that, he suggested that the French intercede in Lebanon.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 12, 2007, 05:14:36 PM
Maddie, the folk dances on which Cholina drew in creating her stage production, Zmonems, or People, are much heavier footed, as I'm sure you imagine, but the basic movements are similar.  She's perhaps the most interesting choreographer in Vilnius at the moment.  She did a wonderful tribute to Marlene Dietrich, in Songs of Women,

http://www.ach.lt/EN/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36


I not only imagine but I have done. It would have been difficult to take a ballet class in the mid-1940s without learning something about Russian culture. About a decade later, I was sitting watching a folk dance rehearsal one afternoon in the darkened auditorium of Univ.of Wisc.-Madison, from a more or less central position of the the theaters seating arrangement  but high enough on the rise to watch their floor-patterns, when someone tapped me on the shoulder.  That someone apparently resembled a younger version of Boris Pasternak, that slightly wolvine blond esthete quality, and began explaining what was taking place on stage.

"I know."  I really had wanted to just observe, for particular techniques, and not entertain what had the aura of a pick-line.   This did not deter him, in the least; so I tried the other tactic by suggesting that the Baba Yaga is a striking idea.  Doesn't work, it is all -- how do you know so much about Russian culture?   As I remember, 50% Diaghilev,Nijinsky's career, and other ballet impresarios, having an inclination to respond to balalaikas, a preference for playing Russian composers in a minor key, and 50% post-war Theodore Bikel usually does it.  I was soon to learn quite a bit more, specifically Mayakovsky, and a bit later that Russians like to meet each other at some central point on the map where they can all gather for the major holidays and begin singing which is their forte. 

But by then, I hung out at the Russian Tea Room  for a light lunch of borscht and pirozhki, and drank my tea in a glass when that was what was called for under the circumstances. I had meanwhile learned to hold my cigarette according to custom and repeat the pronunciation that I recalled to do the role of Luba Luchenko in -- Darkness at Noon, for which other directors commended me for having my accent down.

The cause of all this oddly enough was more than Stanislavski's Moscow Theatre  "method" ; or, otherly. Eugen was born actually at Linz,Austria, but in a box-car on a railroad siding just as the Red Army decided to pass by. Thus, his blond Pasternak type resemblence.  They liberated him back to the USSR where he became an agronomist and by the strangest of wry humoresque occurences he became part of an exchange program to perfect the potato according to Wisconsin standards at the height of the McCarthy era.  You tell me?

Odd, yes.  Still more odd is the inconstant feminine nature in this world which prevented my having any desire to live in the Eastern sector of Europe. I didn't even think about it at the time. Never occurred to me.  Otherwise, I may or may not have made your acquaintance before now. It's an entirely unconscious way of coming up with the life that you will end up living instead.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 12, 2007, 09:19:27 PM
barton -

I just couldn't take The Stranger seriously - silly Camus, he's so, well, French existentialist.  Morbid, self-pitying, a guy, in short, who is probably totally into his navel lint.

whiskey -

I have finally gotten seriously about reading Boswell's London Journal 1763 - 1763 and I'm about halfway through.  If you haven't read it, well, you must.  It's hysterically funny, and the story of how it was discovered is fascinating.  I had no idea that Yale houses all of Boswell's manuscripts, letter, etc.  There is a description of how he got nervous during his first assignation with an actress he had been wooing - he eventually rose to the occasion only to get a ferocious dose of the clap.  His convalescence is described in agonizing detail.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 12, 2007, 09:22:04 PM
The nerve of these people I work for!  A few weeks back they informed us that they were monitoring our keystrokes.  Today they announced they are monitoring our web usage.  So I have this job where I don't have anywhere near enough to do much of the time, and I dare not even look at my bank balance, let along contribute to these forums all day!  It's like torture.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 12, 2007, 10:30:16 PM
Dessie,

It won't meet your need for a fix, but you can eat your lunch on work time, and spend your lunch time online. Or, go to someone else's computer .... Or, buy lunch for your techie/IT person and let them fix your computer to get online from under the company network. If it costs most than lunch, you get to decide! Or, you could buy a laptop with either wireless access, or connect to a straight phone line, and get online all you want on your laptop. I think you can also use some cell phones that want, but I'm not really into gadgets, so I'm not sure.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 13, 2007, 03:03:19 AM
Nytempsperdu, I've read all but the last one of Alexander McCall Smith's Botswana novels featuring the #1 lady detective, Precious Romotswe. loving wife and companion of J L B Matekone, owner of Speedy Motors on Zebra Lane.  I've read some of his fiction set in Scotland--44th street is in the title, and the little boy, Bertie, is a riot when telling his part of the stories.  Talk about fractured history!  You have to read those in the right sequence so that Bertie "evolves."

I got you a cake.  And I ate it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 13, 2007, 07:32:20 AM
Quote
Boswell's London Journal 1763 - 1763
Well, that should be short!

Seriously, in packing up and sorting through books to thin out the herd, so to speak, I ran across my maternal grandmother's copy of that.  Never got around to reading it.  Maybe when I unpack....


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on July 13, 2007, 10:18:01 AM
I've been glued here on days off doing extra transcription work (interviews) so haven't posted -- but thank you Martin for thoughts on Bolano above --

Whiskey, - congrats on your move to the great "second city" -- why do I think of great hot dogs when I think of Chicago?  I think brother-in-law mentioned them once and they've stuck in mind.

Des -- company sounds a bit tough! 

Reading "Calculating God" by Robert Sawyer -- Sci Fi book, enjoying thoroughly - hope to discuss more soon.

Have received "Where Bigfoot Walks" (with a bend in it -- so a discount) -- hope to begin before another month passes.  Looks to be great - right up my alley.

Heat wave here in Vancouver finally subsiding (after even more miserable than usual June).

Off to the salt mine.

(I see no posts by Goliard, yet -- alas)..







Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 13, 2007, 10:37:26 AM
Quote
why do I think of great hot dogs when I think of Chicago?
They put tons of crap on them - sweet pickle relish, dill pickle, hot peppers, cucumbers, tomatoes, cole slaw...  Frankly, I think it over does the cucumber related condiments.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 13, 2007, 10:43:04 AM
Desde -- Camus doesn't remain an existentialist, though.  After presenting the absurd nature of human existence in The Stranger, presenting a man who feels himself outside of moral and social conventions and speaks with an oddly ingenuous directness,  Camus sort of recants in The Plague.  Sartre considered The Plague to be a humanist response to existentialism, and considered Camus to be his worthy opposite, in fact.  Camus was, above all else, a good novelist, and didn't see himself as a philosopher.  In the second part of The Stranger, he actually goes back to the older French tradition of satire, in which a naive person, or "ingenu" is used to poke fun at social conventions and traditional morality.    


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 13, 2007, 03:54:26 PM
Whiskey,

I do look forward to your perceptions of the great city you are moving to. Please tell us about the sights, what is a must see, and about the smells, does the city still smell like the stockyards? How is the lakeview? bordered by a park, or lined with tall skyscrapers?

One of the reasons why there is so much cucumber in spicey additions to hot dogs is because cucumbers tend to be a "bumper crop" that is destined to the pickling pot for lack of anything better to do with the excess. Cucumbers do not freeze well and are not (as far as I know) a great source of vitamins, so all you can do with all those cukes is pickle them in the greatest variety. My favorite way to enjoy a hot dog is with mustard and pickle relish. I do like them sometimes smothered in chili so they must be eaten with a fork. As a child, I ate them often cooked and eaten with sauerkraut. My kids would only eat sauerkraut seasoned with brown sugar. My second husband, a typical southerner, does not like sauerkraut at all.

BTW, if you ask hubby how he went from a 300 pound behomoth to a the nice, tall, slim fellow I met 23 years ago, he will tell you he went on a hot dog diet. Lunch and dinner were a plain hot dog, no bun, no relishes, maybe a bit of mustard only. He ate them for about a year, and shed more than 150 lbs. There is merit in them there dogs!!!



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 13, 2007, 10:42:41 PM
Maddie,

Yes he did! He is only gaining again now that he is retired and spending too much time as a couch potato. His evening raids of milk and cookies are making his jeans tighter and tightest! But, then I've put on pounds since I retired, after a live spent as a hundred pound skinny girl, and now topping the scales at 130! Ugh! But, I just treated myself to biscuits and sausage gravy as an evening snack, followed by another biscuit with orange marmalade ... and I'd been eating slim all week since Steve was away, but tonight I got HUNGRYYYYY!

Tomorrow, I will go back to eating slim!



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 13, 2007, 11:16:13 PM
nytempsperdu   Reply #707

"Red tea, lady. Red tea."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 13, 2007, 11:29:36 PM
So I've gone two days at work now without checking my personal e-mail or posting over here.  It's miserable!  They are saying we can't even use the internet at lunch or after hours unless it's work related..

 >:(


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 13, 2007, 11:33:13 PM
Quote
why do I think of great hot dogs when I think of Chicago?
They put tons of crap on them - sweet pickle relish, dill pickle, hot peppers, cucumbers, tomatoes, cole slaw...  Frankly, I think it over does the cucumber related condiments.
-- Off topic, so to speak:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT1zjs0y6Z4

Don't let any of those pink pistol whipping lesbians catch you in the Loop. I'll never forget the day that they raided the Best American Novel of the Last 25 Years Survey.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 14, 2007, 03:58:43 AM
Nytempsperdu, it was a strawberry loaf cake with cream cheese frosting.  After the cake cooled (strawberry cake smells so good it's hard not to peck around the edges while it cools.)  For frosting I mixed fresh strawberries (mashed) with cream cheese and powdered sugar.  Piled it about an inch high.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 14, 2007, 08:35:48 PM
Donot....

Okay, now drop one of those recipes off, frosting included, in the food forum.

Also when  you do those buttermilk things, do you come up with salad dressing by any chance?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 15, 2007, 02:26:58 AM
Jaysus, Maddy.  I thought I did the buttermilk salad dressing thing.  Somewhere here abouts.  Who knows which discussion it was in.  Recently there was a discussion with chain gang lyrics.  I haven't run across it since I posted.  Haven't a clue where it was.  By The Bloomin Lamp Post, we may need a search feature.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 15, 2007, 08:28:59 AM
Buttin' in here.....here's the buttermilk dressing recipe.  It's contained in Post #262 in Food Matters.  Why it was posted there, I will never figure out.....


"Buttermilk dressing is just buttermilk, vinegar, sugar, and salt and pepper.  Put some buttermilk (a cup?) in a bowl with a Tbsp of sugar, add vinegar (slowly, a tsp at a time) until buttermilk thckens, season to taste.  Pour over shredded cabbage and chopped white onion and chopped green pepper and let stand in fridge for at least four hours, turning now and then."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 15, 2007, 11:55:23 AM
DEDEMONA, Our Lady in Distress,here is what you can do:get Blackberry and post unto us/or get a laptop and lock thyself in the bathroom -or is it toilet over there?-

You can hide either behind a large old accounting book -excuse: investigating something like" there´s something rotten in the state of Denamark" or some such line,-or under the desk-excuse: felt something furry touch thy foot-.

Remember: where there´s a will,there´s a way.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 15, 2007, 01:08:49 PM
So I've gone two days at work now without checking my personal e-mail or posting over here.  It's miserable!  They are saying we can't even use the internet at lunch or after hours unless it's work related..

 >:(
  You really must get your priorities in order.  Quit.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 15, 2007, 02:58:31 PM
KSF ALERT
DONOTREMOVE,Lord of the Flying Red Horse

thee like most Heethens only remembers to pray when the going gets ruff.So where art thy long over dooo fees?

Beeing troo to His human nature The Humbel Apposel is doing his thing kneeling by the Blooming Lampost for the Copa America Cup final this afternoon.

Look what they have put up at Ye Olde Insane Asylum (NYT):

 http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z_CbVId8so8

Kute! that´s what will have to face this afternoon.I´m getting together with several friends to do a little hooliganning at the club while watching how we kill them Brazilian team-.

We´re going to beat them to a pulp.

Here is what WE´ve got fo them: regardez (fr.) monsieur :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z_CbVId8so8


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 15, 2007, 03:09:56 PM
Control yourself, Martin.  Remember you are an example to your community, a business man with the obligation to show restraint when watching futbol games.  Remember how untidy it was last time when The Fiery Pen had to speak to the Judge on your behalf?  Do not beg a reoccurance of THAT, my friend.  At least wear some sort of disguise.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 15, 2007, 07:22:53 PM
harrie, it's all a matter of timing, as I was still asleep at 8am after reading the recipe yesterday in the appropriate place, and it depends if I'm in the zone. I have my doubts about how much buttermilk I can handle on a good day. He says he makes pies with it! I made biscuits with green stuff and h...no, make that red jalapenos and ciboulette and fine herbs. Donotremove does have the correct answer for what has gone wrong with cole slaw for years                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   in this part of the world,anyway.

I had the incorrect answer for how to handle potatoes so I will have to bake some and eat humble fish pie, I suppose.

Anybody up for a game of Negev?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 15, 2007, 07:33:00 PM
harrie, it's all a matter of timing, as I was still asleep at 8am after reading the recipe yesterday in the appropriate place, and it depends if I'm in the zone.

I'm sorry, madupont, I wasn't trying to be snotty, just making light -- or trying to -- of the fact the recipe was actually in the appropriate place all along.  Given that I partook in the pizza discussion in Meander, I don't feel I have too much right or credibility in telling anyone where to post what. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 15, 2007, 11:10:30 PM
martin -

You would have a better chance of beating Brazil if your team would stop scoring goals for them.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 16, 2007, 02:22:44 AM
No problem,harrie,

I did eat the potato with the skin intact baked in the microwave, and made a poached haddock with white wine, bouquet garnie, a little garlic powder, a sprinkle of shallots and grind of pepper, topped with  chives; and when it was done, which is a matter of minutes, you put in 2-4 Table-spoons of butter into the liquid where it melts instantly as you whisk it a bit which automatically breaks up the boneless fish,thicken slightly with a small amount of flour into which some half-and-half(the cream/milk kind, not the ale and stout).

The potato goes into a shallow dish when you have halved it, this is the big white potato with the thin skin, pierced before baking, which really works out better than standard baking potatoes do in a microwave-- and then you ladle the haddock over your potato and find out what's left on television.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 16, 2007, 05:37:05 AM
Whiskey drinkers might enjoy Peat, Smoke and Spirit,

http://www.amazon.com/Peat-Smoke-Spirit-Andrew-Jefford/dp/0747245789/ref=sr_1_1/105-5791205-4542015?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184578448&sr=1-1

Jefford builds a history of the Isle of Islay around its famous single malts, which include Lagavulin and Laphroaig.  The book has a nice feeling to it as he weaves the history of the Hebrides with walks around the island, and caps each chapter with a taste of one of the fine malted whiskies.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 16, 2007, 05:54:44 AM
Rest well tonight, whiskey, and enjoy tom'w.  How're the digs?  Corner office with great view and all the perks?  Hope you'll fill us in.

(BTW, what are skittles, anyway?)
My start date has been pushed back at least one week.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 16, 2007, 11:54:39 AM
Seems like I've heard that skittles is some kind of game.  I think the sort of game for idling away long periods of free time.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 16, 2007, 11:58:32 AM
Are not Skittles the bite-size (fruit-flavored) treat?  My dentist hands out big bags of them to patients.  I've never tried washing them down with beer....


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 16, 2007, 12:46:36 PM
Skittles is a variety of nine pin bowling.

Also, tasty fruit candies.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 16, 2007, 01:56:44 PM
DON, I´m really depressed.The Argie team played a shameful game and deserved to lose.To top it all we shot a *gol en contra*.Shot against ourselves.I won´t go into technicalities suffice to say that my ultra-friend Miguel was called a *mufa*(moofah= guy that brings bad luck)  behind his back and heard it and it was a miracle it didn´t all end in a brawl.The FP being present shot the guys with some creative swearing ,reminding them why didn´t the go back to the womb of their mothers the same way they came out of it,but in other words and left banging the door,whilst I walked quickkly to the Pehjoe 206 not looking back just in case I had to save her her honor as usual.   

That team is a sorry mirror of my country.Take them  one by one ,they are great,put them all together and they can´t accomplish a frigging thing.The coach  was afraid to appear at the end , the earth swallowed him.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 16, 2007, 02:05:46 PM
" . . . the earth swallowed him."

Wait, wait, Martin.  I'm on my way out to the back yard to pour sand over my head.  I've already put on the sack cloth (I haven't decided yet whether to flail myself.  It is, after all, your team not mine.  I no longer do futbol.  Not since my early teen years, which was before you were born.)

" . . . some rain must fall."


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on July 17, 2007, 03:44:34 AM
Rest well tonight, whiskey, and enjoy tom'w.  How're the digs?  Corner office with great view and all the perks?  Hope you'll fill us in.

(BTW, what are skittles, anyway?)
My start date has been pushed back at least one week.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on July 17, 2007, 03:49:02 AM
...you don't know what you're doing, eh? El Potenito? (I'm replying to meself since I can't yet find the "button" to post a decent post of my own.)

 So, here I am, from fetuciniconalio to fasulo1, to elportenito to bocajuniors and now back to my favourite identity: El Portenito, I can se that You all are here, gregarious lot of sentimental fools. Answer me, you bastards!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 17, 2007, 05:16:49 AM
Bocajuniors!! I knew that was you I saw over in Central and South America and LatAmLit.  Hot Dog.  Glad to see you at last.  Martin will be jumping up and down.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on July 17, 2007, 06:00:01 AM
Hy Donot!...I posted to you in the NYT's "books we will like to read Miss"., or something like that. I explained to Martin the consequences of going cold turkey without having where to post. But I'm better now and they let me into the garden when the days are warm. The fact is that here in Sydney IS freezing, they say the coldest days in July in the last 21 years, and i believe them, this is as cold as bloody Buenos Aires in July, and is not a compliment.

I''m home taking some days off work, caughing and taking antybiotics, because the caughing is so violent I think I'd damaged some muscle in my right side, either that or my kidney is getting dettached from the rest of the equipment. For the first time, I'm wearing a "singlet" (wifebeater) which happens to be dark blue, my wife is having some wild fantasies about going to bed with a shearer, the pain in my lower back gives her fantasy even more realism. She asks me: "how many have you shorn today, daah-leeeeng", puting a nasal twang to her delivery to make it sound more Aussy, and I say dismissively: "ah, just the average, pet". What happens after is not fit for this "place", all I can tell you is it involves energetic rubbing with a strong smelling substance and wool garments are included in the strange ritual. Then we sleep.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 17, 2007, 06:15:57 AM
Shee-it, Elportenito. You get all the good stuff, even from a default position. Who'd of imagined that women would fantacize about balling a sheep shearer?  Don't forget to stop by the food and gardening sites.  I'm sure you'll find your way to all the political ones.

We're having Summer here.  Although, here in Texas we've had so much rain I'm sort of moldy.  Been dry the past few days, though with the high daytime temps in the middle 90s.

I'm really, really glad to see you, my brother.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 17, 2007, 10:55:09 AM
Boca!  I remember you from the late great Ethics forum at the NYT.  Greetings.

Harrie, I'm wondering about a dentist who hands out candy to his patients.  While I can't fault this as a business plan, it does seem a little too obvious.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 17, 2007, 11:13:18 AM
Harrie, I'm wondering about a dentist who hands out candy to his patients.  While I can't fault this as a business plan, it does seem a little too obvious.

Now that you mention it, it's always stuff that sticks to your teeth and never comes off, even with several brushings.  Hmmm, you think he's up to something?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 17, 2007, 11:34:05 AM
elpo -

Still fighting for the workers' revolution in your native land from a comfy armchair five thousand miles away, I take it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 17, 2007, 09:50:28 PM
El Portenito

Aren't you glad you came back to this ?    How would you describe that armchair?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on July 18, 2007, 12:11:06 AM
wiskeypriest: actualy the chair is not that comfy, I shall change the cushion soon.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 19, 2007, 06:43:24 AM
wiskeypriest: actualy the chair is not that comfy, I shall change the cushion soon.
No, leave it be.  One must sacrifice something for one's ideals.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 19, 2007, 10:09:36 AM
Elport:  Are you still dreaming about that girl you saw on the train?  That was you, wasn't it, who was asking ethical questions about pretty girls seen in mass transit situations?



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 19, 2007, 10:19:12 AM
Elport:  Are you still dreaming about that girl you saw on the train?  That was you, wasn't it, who was asking ethical questions about pretty girls seen in mass transit situations?


Actually, that was Mr. Bernstien.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 19, 2007, 12:33:35 PM
BOCA,what girl? what train? what mass traffic situation?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 19, 2007, 01:20:50 PM
About half a dozen regulars hung out at the Ethics forum (in the NYT Magazine section of the forums) and knocked around questions of ethics and responses to Randy Cohen's column.  Boca, if memory serves, had something about this girl he would see on a train and some complex ethical considerations related to that.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 19, 2007, 07:07:46 PM
Barton -

I am quite impressed with your precognition some weeks back regarding the resurrection of Winona Ryder.  She reared her little tiny head in the press yesterday - did you catch it?  She has five movies slated to make this year.  And she really did say she doesn't feel guilty about the shoplifting conviction because it didn't hurt any human being.  When you're from Petaluma, that's how things are, yuh new?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 19, 2007, 07:32:39 PM
I didn't catch the Winonan bulletin.  But I can well believe that Ms. Ryder would be far more guilt-wracked at eating a cheeseburger than shoplifting.  IIRC, she was raised in a family rather like Joaquin Phoenix's, i.e. communal vegans.  BTW, did you know that there is a town out here on the northern plains called Winona?  (it's in MN)  And, as it happens, the Ryders were originally from MN and named their daughter after the town.

I would have gone for Bemidji, myself.  Duluth isn't bad, either. 



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 19, 2007, 07:34:36 PM
If it's a boy, however, I'd recommend these MN cities...

Rochester

Albert Lea

St. Paul




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 19, 2007, 09:48:11 PM
Yes, I recall reading about the commune she was raised in - was it in California?

My parent's live in Marin county - once my mother and I were watching a movie with her in it, and Mom remarked that she was "from Petaluma".  The "I didn't think anyone was from Petaluma" was my father's rejoinder.   

There is a Duluth, Georgia - it's part of metro Atlanta.

My daughter is named after a town - Chelsea.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 19, 2007, 10:57:13 PM
I was named after St. Eve....


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 20, 2007, 02:11:18 AM
Speaking of Minn-E-Soe-tah towns, I once knew a lady who lived in Fergus Falls who had a goat named Roy Rogers.  They also have a duck crossing there.

I loved the way Ms Ryder wanted to lick the arm of that fellow she was enamored of in "Mermaids", in which Bob Hoskins nearly stole the show.  She can lick my arm anyday.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 20, 2007, 03:25:55 AM
barton, re:#749

Yes, but did you know that natives of Phoenix are called Phoenicians?

That stunned me.    I did know about the Winona thing, however because I met a dude from there who was into hydroponic everything and looked vaguely a little bit too much like John Travolta in his younger good looking days (before jbottle posted the ballooning shots),especially the blue eyes.  He was lounging around on her bed when my friend Mother Goose introduced him to me.  They made beautiful grass together in the back yard because you can do that in Polish neighbourhoods in the Midwest and she was otherwise known as Mother Superior.

Winona the Petulant is a pain in the butt. The best role that she managed to carry was not all that big but was importantly the young wife of Daniel Day-Lewis, in  The Age of Innocence.

Neither Heathers, and didn't she do an opposite Johnny Depp, but was it Edward Scissorhands? nor opposite Angelina Jolie in Girl Interrupted are anything but B work.  I can't remember anything else she has done that matched up to how Scorsese type-cast her


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on July 20, 2007, 08:48:35 AM
"Elport:  Are you still dreaming about that girl you saw on the train?  That was you, wasn't it, who was asking ethical questions about pretty girls seen in mass transit situations?""



barton; ...ahhhh!!!....that girl!!!...yes, now I remember, well, you know, some times life gets a bit boring here in Australia (like nearly every minute) and I let my imagination fly. Is good to see Martin interested in those ethical conundrums of ethical me.

 I wish i could go back to the "ethical" forum and copy that post of mine, some times I'm proud of meself, you know? Others my choice of coordinates of time and space are completely off the mark, like the exact moment 9/11  was happening I was posting some humorous musing of mine on the NYT's forums, and the next day I was blamed for my insensitivity towards tragedy, etc. What I do!!...how would I know siting in Sydney what was going on on the other side of the world in order to be solemn.

The great mistake is trying to find any meaning in life and to expect life to agree with our view of it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on July 20, 2007, 08:50:50 AM
as the Brazialian song goes:


"a vida e pra viver"

But then again, that's all Brazialian to You.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on July 20, 2007, 08:52:06 AM
...why did I write "Brazi-a-lian twice?......and not Brazilian.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 20, 2007, 09:10:36 AM
So George Bush is presiding over a meeting of a national security meeting in which the main subject is, of course, Iraq.  After stoically receiving reams of bad news, Bush is about to wrap up the meeting when an aide comes in and whispers in Defense Secretary Gates's ear.  Gates nods, and turns to the president.  "Mr. President," he says, "I have just received some bad news.  Two Brazillian soldiers were killed in Iraq this morning."

Bush's face drains of all of what passes for color.  "Oh my God!"  he screams, and begins to weep.  He buries his face in his hands and sobs.  The rest of the group exchange looks, touched that the deaths of two Brazillian soldiers would cause such a reaction in the stoic Bush.

Finally, Bush takes his head out of his hands, and with red-brimmed eyes, asks, "How many is a brazillian?"


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: kitinkaboodle on July 20, 2007, 09:14:52 AM
Perfect. ;D


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 20, 2007, 09:33:19 AM
Good one!

Winona seems to really divide the chamber here.  Female posters refer to "the Petulant," or her "little tiny head" or her "big vacant eyes," while males seem to fancy an arm licking.  I thought she was good in The Age of Innocence, and also in Coppola's Dracula.  And who can deny that she outperformed Dick Cavett in Betelgeuse?





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 20, 2007, 10:51:47 AM
What did Boca write about in his famous post in the ethical forum. I am interested because I think there are two Bocas,one the one we know  :-\
and the other is a philosopher of everyday life which is the only philosophy I am interested in.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 20, 2007, 10:52:42 AM
WHISKEYPRIEST, that was sadly so an excellent joke.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 20, 2007, 11:51:23 AM
There you go, Martin.  Boca is not only more than several, he has even more sides.  I've seen posts, back in the NYT days, that blew my socks off, so full of insight and common sense (to me anyway) as they were.  But remember.  He's a guy who painted his kitchen green and when asked what color green said, "It's green green." ;D

But don't hold your breath for Boca/Elportentia to become consistant.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 20, 2007, 12:19:57 PM
Winona seems to really divide the chamber here.  Female posters refer to "the Petulant," or her "little tiny head" or her "big vacant eyes," while males seem to fancy an arm licking. 

I like Winona Ryder -- well, her work; the shoplifting thing is just not cool -- a lot.  But then, I'm very manly.  Mostly, I like her earlier work: Heathers, in which I thought she was excellent; Scissorhands; even the Alien flick.  While I think her talent is still plenty intact, her choices of roles have been pretty poor.  I sort of wonder if her youthful, perpetually ingenue-y looks have held her back some; that is, maybe she hasn't been offered some of the better, meatier roles out there because she still looks about 20, despite being in her mid-30s (? I think).  BWTHDIK?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 21, 2007, 09:13:51 AM
Anyone know when the new Harry Potter book is coming out?  I can't seem to find any information on it anywhere.

 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 21, 2007, 09:57:06 AM
According to the local tv station, it was to be released at midnight last night. You should be able to buy it today.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 21, 2007, 10:54:27 AM
LOL, whisky.

Every so often a "the death of reading" story will cite Harry Potter.  Apparently, some alarming percentage of adults will read zero or one novel per year, and the one novel is an HP installment because their kids are reading it.  Talk about the infantilization of culture.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 21, 2007, 11:28:43 AM
I saw that tv cut to the British booksale at Midnight, and all the kids who had come in costumes, finally the interviews when some reporter with a mike asked a somewhat teen-ager, holding her new acquisition, if she intended to start reading as soon as she got it home, something like that... It was a bit like the old openings for matinee of Disney films,the noise,the screaming...

My idea of sharing was to pop on a bus with my son, off to the suburbs where I grew up and knew the people were so close-minded that nobody would attend for fear of their souls (and possibly having to explain to their party chairman why they had been seen attending a matinee of): The Yellow Submarine. We bought our refreshments, and went to all the seating imaginable for an empty house; so we just propped up our knees against the back of the seats in front of us and had a good time.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on July 21, 2007, 11:31:49 AM
I was planning on taking the wife on kids on the West Highland Steam Train in Scotland, but have been forewarned that Harry Potter fans have lit on this train as the Hogwarts Express.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on July 21, 2007, 12:08:08 PM
A lot of folks bow to far lower forms of pop culture than Harry Potter.  If you like it, don't think of it as kid lit, think of it as a kitchy vice  ;)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on July 21, 2007, 03:20:42 PM
Here's the epigraph from the new HP:

Oh, the torment bred in the race,
the grinding scream of death
and the stroke that hits the vein,
the hemorrhage none can staunch, the grief,
the curse no man can bear.

But there is a cure in the house,
and not outside it, no,
not from others but trom them,
their bloody strife.  We sing to you,
dark gods beneath the earth.

Now hear, you blissful powers underground---
answer the call, send help.
Bless the children, give them triumph now.


....Aeschylus, The Libation Bearers

and also:

Death is but crossing the world, as friends do the seas; they live in one another still.  For they must needs be present, that love and live in that which is omnipresent.  In this divine glass, they see face to face; and their converse if free, as well as pure.  This is the comfort of friends, that though they may be said to die, yet their friendship and society are, in the best sense, ever present, because immortal.

William Penn, More Fruits of Solitude

Hmmmm...I sense dark things lie ahead....

But the real problem isn't Harry Potter or (dare I say it) Celebreality.  The problem lies in the fact that the masses don't appreciate the difference between art and idolatry.  Critical reasoning is never applied and the biggest by-product of pop culture becomes a population of lemmings waiting to jump off the next cliff.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on July 21, 2007, 11:08:57 PM
NYTemps....(More information than you asked for.....)I noticed the change in books 5 and 6 of HP, also, and I wondered whether Rowling had always had this in mind or whether it was her response to 9/11.   If you've read books 1-4, you notice the type of danger is quite different than in books 5-6.  In the first books, the danger was supernatural and fantastical in nature.  In the last two, the nature of evil seems to have changed.  Book 5, The Order of the Phoenix, would have been written between 2000 and 2003, Book 6, The Half-Blood Prince, 2003-2005. 

Here is what I wrote after reading book 6 two years back...it's lengthy so you may want to scan (or even skip it  ;) )  I think my conclusion about unsuspecting children may have changed since its writing....primarily due to discussions I have had with students.

I finished "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" a few days ago. I had the feeling, as I was reading, that this book is not at all the sort of book as the others in the series. The over-reaching theme of the first five books is the triumph of good over evil, as well as the power of love to conquer even death itself. This book is also about good versus evil, and the fact that Harry was saved from a certain death by the power of his mother's love is specifically spelled out for the reader. The difference between this book and the others, I think, lies in the quality of the evil present here. In the first five books, the evil is somewhat insubstantial. There are headless ghosts and goblins and werewolves, etc.--creepy stuff all right, but nothing nothing one can actually glom onto in the light of day. The feeling I had reading this episode, however, was that the evil was real, tangible, and something to be dealt with on a day-to-day basis. The stage is set in the first chapter, "The Other Minister." Rowling makes it a point to portray the politicians as inept and buffoonish, certainly not beings one would trust to make sure that all is right with the world. When Harry stops off at the Weasley's house before going on to Hogwarts, Mrs. Weasley's clock shows every member of the family to be in "mortal danger." Mrs. Weasley explains, "It's been like that for a while now, ever since You-Know-Who came back. I suppose everybody's in mortal danger now... I don't think it can be just our family." The word "security" is frequently tossed about. This paragraph, in which Dumbledore cautions the students, could have been lifted directly from a Homeland Security Advert. "I cannot emphasize strongly enough how dangerous the present situation is. and how much care each of us at Hogwarts must take to ensure that we remain safe. The castle's magical fortifications have been strengthened over the summer, we are protected in new and more powerful ways, but we must still guard scrupulously against carelessness on the part of any student or member of staff. I urge you, therefore, to abide by any security restrictions that your teachers might impose upon you, however irksome you might find them....I implore you, should you notice anything strange or suspicious within or outside the castle, to report it to a member of staff immediately..." The book ends with the death of a person who has represented to Harry all that is safe and secure, and this person is murdered by someone he trusted absolutely.

I really liked the first five books of the series. I was impressed that an author could write books so compelling that children would read 5 or 800 pages over a week-end. I also like this book, I like it very much, but I do not think it is suitable material for children. I grew up a fairly sheltered child. My parents looked out for me and tried to present the world as a good place to be. Children today are bombarded constantly with images of bloodshed and violence. September 11 changed the way children everywhere view the world. "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" seems to be Rowling's response to the violence of the world. Her message seems to be that children must take matters into their own hands because they cannot trust the adults in their lives to look after them properly. This is such a bad message to send children in an unstable world. It can only add to their insecurity. I've read studies done on the children of the London Blitz that conclude that these children have grown up to be stable, successful adults because they knew that the adults in their lives could be called upon to protect them. Even when their houses were being bombed and they never knew from one moment to the next what would be happening around them, these children knew that the adults in their lives would sacrifice anything to their children's safety. Giving children the message that the adults in their lives---parents, teachers, politicians--are untrustworthy or incompetent can only undermine their sense of security and well-being. This message was not so blatant in the previous Harry Potter books because the evil had a quality of unreality or of the super-natural. Rowling has done great things for the world of children's literature. For that she deserves praise, but this book seems to be Rowling's response to September 11. It is her catharsis perhaps, but not something she should dump onto the minds of unsuspecting children.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Furphy on July 21, 2007, 11:16:28 PM
Speaking of terror.

My office is now being managed by a group of Scientologists.

Everyone is being sent off to the Org... not to study the religion, for that would be wrong...but to learn how to communicate and study and work.

It was suddenly discovered last week that I, too, am a little shakey in the communication department. It was suggested that I'd probably want to go to a few classes at the Org. But I made it pretty plain that I had no intention of going near the Church of Scientology for any reason.

Since it was made clear to me that I had to do something about my attitude...I'm told I'm not cheerful enough...I'm off for stress counseling this week.

My how thoughtful of my employer! First you stress 'em out and then you pay to unstress 'em.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Furphy on July 21, 2007, 11:21:36 PM
I am amazed that anyone who knows me...I am a 57 year old woman...thinks that I am an empty vessel into which just any philosophy of life can be poured.

I have my own damn philosophy...part Proust, part Abe Lincoln, part Dr. Johnson..and I want nothing to do with L. Ron Hubbard, thank you very much.


Title: Re: The good news is
Post by: Furphy on July 21, 2007, 11:31:47 PM
I am wearing a sock I knit with my own two little hands.

It is made of a Trekking yarn in sefl-striping pink, yellow, green and blue.

A friend watched me picking up the gusset stitches along the sides of the heel flaps and distributing them onto my double pointed needles. This is a fairly elaborate process and clearly has a purpose.

But after watching for some time in silence, Wes asked me "Is that going to be anything in particular?"

As if one simply sits down to knit and may end up with a hat or a cabbage or some other random item!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 22, 2007, 12:33:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s5_ikLAnLg

This is "novel" not to be disturbing the Fiction posters.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on July 22, 2007, 08:34:09 AM
martinbeck3: Well, Martin, I'm a ethical being too, apart from the carnality which emanates from my stunning handsomness, slightly deminished by the pasing of time, but always on the stright and narrow of a strict conduct when it comes to the art of living. The arethe of the ancient Greeks, if ya know what I'm talking about. And my Italian cooking is not bad either. In other words, a Renaissance man by all means.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 22, 2007, 09:55:06 AM
Fur -

Assuming you do not work for the Church of Scientology itself, requiring membership in a church - or descriminating against soemone because they do not join a church - or requiring someone to attend religious training or seminars, or counseling (somehow I suspect the "stress counselling" is not likely to be grounded in psychological theory), is against the law.  You should consult a lawyer out there about your treatment.


Title: Re: Stress counseling
Post by: Furphy on July 22, 2007, 10:02:26 AM
Oh, Whiskey, the stress counseler is an independant California cool/Zen kind of guy who is not a Scientologist. I made sure of that with the sane partner in my firm who found him.


Title: Re: In solitary
Post by: Furphy on July 22, 2007, 10:22:26 AM
Before any one suggests that I should just leave this job, let me point out that I had/have one of the more serious and expensive Pre-existing Conditions that would likely be written out of any future health insurance policy I might get at home or on the job.

So quitting my job is a last ditch option.

But the policy of isolating me from my co-workers isn't even working. One of those that I am not supposed to talk to has asked me why this is so. He keeps asking "Is it because you know too much."

That is basically the problem. I know too much about the eccentric behavior of some of the owners. But the fallacy in their thought process is in thinking that other employees won't notice the same eccentricities unless I point them out.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 22, 2007, 12:49:39 PM
Oh,dear.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on July 22, 2007, 04:50:25 PM
I don't know if this would work with Scientologists, but it usually works for me.  Go to the classes/meetings, take notes, nod meaningfully on occasion, don't necessarily agree but say "Okay" or something equivalent -- and then do whatever the hell you want.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 22, 2007, 06:35:36 PM
FURPHY, I agree with Harrie.Tell them you fell off your bike today (Sunday) and...behold you saw the light of St.Science or whatever it´s called and just follow the waccos.You can´t be reasonable where unreason is the name of the game.I lived through the years of fire in my country (Arg.)and I know that is the only way to get along.Just smile and say *cool* to show a positive attitude.Good luck! Deep inside you know you are totally free, but not everyone is born to be a hero.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 22, 2007, 06:44:17 PM
PORTEÑITO: so a *Renaissance (spelling?) man*,the *arethe*,whatever that means ,it doesn´t sound like the merchant sailor who labored hard from morn till night in the docks and on board and now lives the lonely life of an expat.I think you might be for example an-in-her-40´s-amazon looking lady who has followed many a general knowledge course.   


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 22, 2007, 07:07:13 PM
BOCA, in case you feel com saudades here are the Fiery Pen and the choir singing with Los Fronterizos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNeT6rIiv4


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Furphy on July 22, 2007, 07:14:28 PM
Hi, Martin. How's the Bloomin' Lampost?

Just seeing your sweet face again cheers me right up.




FURPHY, I agree with Harrie.Tell them you fell off your bike today (Sunday) and...behold you saw the light of St.Science or whatever it´s called and just follow the waccos.You can´t be reasonable where unreason is the name of the game.I lived through the years of fire in my country (Arg.)and I know that is the only way to get along.Just smile and say *cool* to show a positive attitude.Good luck! Deep inside you know you are totally free, but not everyone is born to be a hero.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 22, 2007, 07:38:31 PM
FURPHY, who were you back then?

Thee goest and tellest the St.Science gang thee is a member of the K/SF and venerates the Blooming Lampost(which,by the way got snowed over last before last Sunday).Blooming Mirakel if thee asks me. If you sendest the doo fees I will send a BL diploma plus you can have the Platinum one for a miserbelle U$A 10 thous.Thus thee will keep the Scientists speechless.

ANYONE´S GOT THE SUNDAY EVENING BLOOS? 

BEHOLD THE K/SF SUNDAY RITES AND RONGS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcTk8975Rj8

this counts as going to service or mass or temple or mesquite ,so thee wil not have another mortal sin on thy vast list of mortal sins for sleeping over this morning deaf to the church/tempel/mesquite bells.

 

 



Title: Re: Who was I then?
Post by: Furphy on July 22, 2007, 08:20:50 PM
I was a French cathedral. Now I'm an Australian water wagon.

Such is life.....


Title: Re: Who was I then?
Post by: nnyhav on July 22, 2007, 08:44:34 PM
I was a French cathedral. Now I'm an Australian water wagon.

Such is life.....
Actually, such is haiku.
Oops, wrong board ...


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on July 22, 2007, 10:43:01 PM
Fur -

Assuming you do not work for the Church of Scientology itself, requiring membership in a church - or descriminating against soemone because they do not join a church - or requiring someone to attend religious training or seminars, or counseling (somehow I suspect the "stress counselling" is not likely to be grounded in psychological theory), is against the law.  You should consult a lawyer out there about your treatment.

Bravo, Whiskey!


Title: Re: Stress counseling
Post by: teddy174c on July 22, 2007, 10:47:36 PM
Oh, Whiskey, the stress counseler is an independant California cool/Zen kind of guy who is not a Scientologist. I made sure of that with the sane partner in my firm who found him.

Furphy,

I supposed one might argue your employer is sensitive and supportive to send you to such counseling -- though, ideally, it would be your wish as well! 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on July 22, 2007, 11:00:44 PM
Wrapped up with unusual speed Nebula Award winner Robert Sawyer's "Calculating God" -- I take back what I said about it being aimed at 8 year olds.  It's of the Sci-Fi genre and protagonist, dying of cancer, teams up with what must be one of the pleasantest aliens whoever touched down in fiction -- Hollis, a vertebrate yet spider-like creature, calm and magnanimous, who talks in syllables from each side of "mouth" (Hell (right side)  oh (left side))who is from a planet a couple of hundred years more advanced than earth, and has come down to earth essentially "seeking God" via study of the Burgess Shale fossils, now on display in the Royal Ontario Museum, curator of which is our atheist protagonist and narrator.  Together they discuss many things, while abortion clinic bomber maniacs from the southern States aim for the Burgess Shale fossils, whose  insanity of crazy forms they deem to be a hoax designed to dupe the aliens (whose visit is widely publicized) into believing the earth wasn't created only 4000 some odd years ago, etc.  Enjoyed references to the (still living I guess at the time this was written) Stephen J. Gould).

Wrapped it up quickly because Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows sat gleaming on my book shelf, having been picked up at 9:00 AM yesterday from Book Warehouse.  Now fully engaged -- maybe infantilism but gives the same rush of escapist joy I got at age ten from reading adventure stories.  Tormented by news casts showing sixteen year olds 2/3 of the way through having picked it up at midnight -- very silly for an adult~!

Anyway,

Dumbledore gone, I am glad there appears to be hope for Dudley -- I'd imagined all sorts of plump blond boys tormented by the depiction of Dudley -- well, here, early on, he breaks free of his mother (Harry's wretched aunt) shakes Harry's hand, acknowledging the latter saved his life in the last installment..

At any rate,

Onward.

(After this -- "Where Bigfoot Walks" by Robert Michael Pyle)..



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 23, 2007, 01:31:07 AM
Oh Jaysus, Teddy.  Your mentioning of Hollis, the invertebrate vertebrate who speaks in syllables, singularly, from each side of his mouth nearly choked the breath out of me, I laughed so hard.  I've been sitting here talking like that (to see what it would be like) and laughing some more and getting my teeth all tangled up.  What a nice finish for a weekend.  Thanks.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on July 23, 2007, 03:29:51 AM
The Back Page essay in the Sunday NYTimes mag was from a author in So. Cal and was about the different folks who cut her lawn after her no good husband left her and daughter and took the lawnmower w/him.The first person was a friend that was a landscaper but left when she got married.The bumpersticker on the back of her truck read"Grow Your Own Dope-Plant a Male" An aside to Whiskey.On July 23rd 1967 the Red Sox completed a 4 game sweep on the road against the Indians.So we start again 40 years later.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on July 23, 2007, 03:42:34 AM
While watching the British Open which came on at 6:am here I was flipping the remote a bit later and came across a childrens show on PBS shown only once a week I have seen a few times before.It's a rather different type of animation more 3d about a young Irish Pig and his buddies done human like .It's called"Jakers!The Adventures of Piggley Winks and sometimes it is rather interesting.The guy who does it I think is a son in law of Mel Brooks cause Mel does the voice of the wise ass sheep that is the head of the flock on Pigglys fathers farm.So there are always two story lines going on.The sheep and the farm family and friends.Anyhoo this morning was about a book that had to be read for school and that Piggly tried to get out of reading by trying to con various friends and adults into telling him about.Of course he gets interested in the book and it turns out to be the legend of Finn McCool.Though to me it looked like Phinn McCool on the cover of the book when he finally picked it up though maybe that is the old spelling.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 23, 2007, 09:48:04 AM
Ted -- glad you liked Calculating God.  I found Hollis one of the more inventive ET creations of the genre.  Sawyer seems to grasp firmly that someone evolved on another planet isn't going to look much like us.  And he puts the whole picture together so plausibly.

Haven't watched the Red Sox in a while, living far from the baseball universe, but saw the seventh inning, possibly the longest and most satisfying for a Red Sox fan possible, of a game with the White Sox this weekend on the local Fox station. (sox fight sox on fox?)  The inning lasted almost an hour and the Red Sox racked up 7 runs.  The White Sox bullpen underwent some kind of total meltdown.  I almost felt sorry for them.





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 23, 2007, 10:51:25 AM
teddy174c


The Road from Danzig
By Timothy Garton Ash
http://www.nybooks.com/


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on July 23, 2007, 09:40:43 PM
Oh Jaysus, Teddy.  Your mentioning of Hollis, the invertebrate vertebrate who speaks in syllables, singularly, from each side of his mouth nearly choked the breath out of me, I laughed so hard.  I've been sitting here talking like that (to see what it would be like) and laughing some more and getting my teeth all tangled up.  What a nice finish for a weekend.  Thanks.

Ha -- Donot, I think you might enjoy the whole book, then!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on July 23, 2007, 09:47:11 PM
While watching the British Open which came on at 6:am here I was flipping the remote a bit later and came across a childrens show on PBS shown only once a week I have seen a few times before.It's a rather different type of animation more 3d about a young Irish Pig and his buddies done human like .It's called"Jakers!The Adventures of Piggley Winks and sometimes it is rather interesting.The guy who does it I think is a son in law of Mel Brooks cause Mel does the voice of the wise ass sheep that is the head of the flock on Pigglys fathers farm.So there are always two story lines going on.The sheep and the farm family and friends.Anyhoo this morning was about a book that had to be read for school and that Piggly tried to get out of reading by trying to con various friends and adults into telling him about.Of course he gets interested in the book and it turns out to be the legend of Finn McCool.Though to me it looked like Phinn McCool on the cover of the book when he finally picked it up though maybe that is the old spelling.

Bo -- Well - just lost a post -- to sum up: rooted for the young Spaniard -- sorry he didn't make it.  Would like to see Ratatouille.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on July 23, 2007, 09:55:55 PM
Ted -- glad you liked Calculating God.  I found Hollis one of the more inventive ET creations of the genre.  Sawyer seems to grasp firmly that someone evolved on another planet isn't going to look much like us.  And he puts the whole picture together so plausibly.

Barton -- you must have been the one to first write the post that inspired me to look for and read it -- many thanks!  (It was the mention of the Museum setting and the Burgess Shale fossils.)

Yeah -- Sawyer does a very good job. I wonder if there's something "Gouldian" in that very plausible (I think) idea of different intelligent creatures evolving very differently, physically, and mentally.  (Think of the "moral" strengths and lack of math skills of the Wreeds, the different metaphors around morality used by the Forhelnors (sp) - (to do with integration rather than "up" or down" as we have "upstanding", "on the up and up", "rise above" etc -- that have, to describe evil -- "it's all on the right" or "it's all on the left" -- (their problem being the divided brain that leads to speech from one then the other side of mouth)).  Anyway the God Hollis's folk seem to believe must have created the universe - or the solar systems within - doesn't seem to have much to do with any morality at all --   As hope dwindles for Tom re getting cured of his cancer, he then seems to want to try to find proof of this creative designer.  I was glad he went for the trip to that black five fingered thing that protected all three planets from from the supernova.  The DNA from all going into that new baby -- I had to wonder "but who will SHE mate with" -- but anyway, ...

There was something rather gentle and hopeful about this book -- nothing of the sci-fi wham bang special effects I'd dreaded.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on July 23, 2007, 09:56:45 PM
teddy174c


The Road from Danzig
By Timothy Garton Ash
http://www.nybooks.com/

Thanks for this Mad!  (I'm not sure if or when I'll ever actually get around to reading Grass -- but I appreciate this thoughtfulness in posting.)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on July 23, 2007, 10:14:57 PM
"Last night's incipient insights have pretty much dissipated ("Whew" do I hear you cry?) so will just say re Potter postulations that there's a plenty there for seekers of fantasy, but likewise plenty for those fond of English boarding school stories (certainly no more horror than Tom Brown's Schooldays or many another of the genre), or even for those seeking references to other BritLit, or to those reflecting on what skills might be helpful to young 'uns living in a dangerous age.  Yes, Rowling's books are overlong, with many a character that might have been parted with however reluctantly, and they're certainly short on subtle nuance, but still, there's plenty of subtle nuance to be sought and found elsewhere.  Meanwhile, the highly imaginative and bloody brilliant woman richly deserves the favour(s), titular and otherwise, coming to her.   And so say I." nytimesperdue

NY -- Well said!  I was wondering if Harry might be the least interesting of the friends -- but then again thought maybe not.  I like his occasional ruefulness, thoughtful reflections -- such as early on here, Harry thinking back, upon finding article on Dumbledore that describes his youth and family, dismayed it had all been about him - Harry, and that Harry had never asked D about himself.  I mean, we could hardly blame Harry for that -- but these are nice touches of Rowlings; the growing up of the hero in more than the ways of skills, strength and acts of heroism.

That very first book was an experience of immediate joy (to my surprise), and the second and third too -- and it's hard to recapture that sense of joyful surprise, but I'm enjoying this new book at least as much as the last.  I hope that little elf creature "Dobby" returns.

Will be interesting to see how Rowlings writes - if she bothers to handle at all, and one might ask, does it have to be necessary -  re the sexual/emotional maturing among sixteen/seventeen year olds (in "real" life I could imagine it spoiling everything - or the adventures, the focus, the idealism, the -- spoiling because all energy would be sucked into it .. ) -- but already there seems tenderness between Harry and Ginny, of quite a mature nature.


"Furphy: Much as previous suggestions must surely appeal to you, I'm sort of hoping you go along with some part of the program, am just betting you can do a real number on whatever sessions you attend--sure would love to read same hereabouts, and I'd bet I'm not alone.  (Cue chorus)"  


Well -- it so happens I've been doing transcriptions of interviews conducted by students pursuing their Masters in Leadership and there is a lot of discussion about the state of employee mental health, how companies now offer employee assistance programs, etc and ideally show support, and have an open door policy for employees to come in and discuss what's making them anxious, depressed, family problems, etc.  I think back to my own horrendous anxiety at one place of employment (in fact, I don't think it was the job for me) and the employer asking me if everything was all right, and being made aware of the employee assistance program -- but that terrified me, I thought of it -- his questions, as odd, prying, sinister.  Now, doing these interviews, reading about people at a much higher level than myself who accept these services and take full advantage of all help, return to work, get supports, -- I realize my attitude was wrong, etc.

So -- it's the way of the world now is what I'd say to Furphy, and probably for the good.  You're not alone.  The only thing is -- do you actually feel like doing this, do you have what the employer might call "insight"?  If you think they're out to lunch (and for all I know, they may be) and the religious pressures to conform are somehow part of this, I don't blame you.  Now knowing what I've learned, I would say, just for a break -- take full advantage!  If it gives you some time off, time to vent -- why not? 

Or - as NY suggests -- at the very least you might have some amusing anecdotes to blow the lid off the stuff (if it's idiotic)!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on July 23, 2007, 10:16:21 PM
NYTemps...I like the books, too, but more for kids over ten years old.  After the last book came out, I spent quite a bit of time talking to students about it.  The kids who were older weren't all that bothered by the terror angle.  Many thought that the fourth and fifth books had actually helped them to deal with the idea of terrible things happening, and they were old enough not be be bothered by the lack of a happy ending.  The general feeling seemed to be that terrible things don't always have a satisfactory conclusion and that a conclusion, good or bad, is something that takes time.  

I don't like them for young children because I think they are too intense.  The argument is always made that young children are reared on fairy tales, which are quite gory and scary, but fairy tales don't take two years to resolve.  The other problem is have with books four and five, is that parents seem to take pride in handing these over to their kids without knowing anything about their content.  At the very least, a parent ought to read these along with the child....if the child is an advanced reader, the parent and child can alternate reading to each other.  I think many parents of younger children would be quite surprised to hear the conclusions their children have drawn from these books.  


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 24, 2007, 11:18:36 AM
http://FUPHY!!!!!

CHARTRES:HI-PREESTESS OF THE K/SF

I AM SO HAPPY TO SEE YOUR BEAUTIFUL SELF


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 26, 2007, 10:20:50 AM
Let's all remove our clothes and drop acid, man!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 26, 2007, 10:28:24 AM
Hold on Barton.  If you offer a naked foot to Chartres (Furphy) she'll put a knitted sock on it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 26, 2007, 11:48:38 AM
I wouldn't recommend playing mind games with the Scientologists, if that's their way of weeding out their employees. They apparently have a lot of supporters who have made a ton of money while "Believing" as they were told. And, Money, always will out.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 26, 2007, 08:32:23 PM
Proof that cats are evil:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070725/ap_on_fe_st/death_cat;_ylt=AtFnzoVinZEmMZSu8etr6Zqs0NUE (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070725/ap_on_fe_st/death_cat;_ylt=AtFnzoVinZEmMZSu8etr6Zqs0NUE)


Title: Re: Interesting to note
Post by: Furphy on July 26, 2007, 09:23:28 PM
You're right, Madupont.

I wonder which of you would like to work in the hostile environment that I work in.

The work I do is stressful enough without having this nonsense foist upon me.

Thank God I have my cats...and knitting....at home to bring me comfort.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 27, 2007, 09:53:09 AM
Quote
Thank God I have my cats...and knitting....at home to bring me comfort.
Just don't let the cat "innocently" curl up next to you while you are sleeping.  It will suck your soul away and you'll wake up dead.  And then where will you be?  Besides dead, I mean.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 27, 2007, 11:18:13 AM
They used to believe cats would suck the souls out of babies, as cats would be attracted to the milk breath and be caught licking around the babies mouth after it had been suckling.

Now, of course, we have television.

 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: TrojanHorse on July 27, 2007, 09:35:21 PM
Why is navel lint always bluish-gray, no matter what color clothes you wear?



I'm not sure...I've never been in the Navy


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: TrojanHorse on July 27, 2007, 09:37:06 PM
Admittedly, this would be funnier if spoken... as opposed to written...



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: TrojanHorse on July 27, 2007, 09:40:55 PM
They used to believe cats would suck the souls out of babies, as cats would be attracted to the milk breath and be caught licking around the babies mouth after it had been suckling.

Now, of course, we have television.

 

You are quickly becoming my "most humourous" poster...

If I were still running the "LOW Highlights"   I do believe you would be a finalist each week...


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: avoice on July 29, 2007, 02:18:56 PM
They used to believe cats would suck the souls out of babies, as cats would be attracted to the milk breath and be caught licking around the babies mouth after it had been suckling.

Now, of course, we have television.

 



You mean that cat's don't suck out the souls of babies?  


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 29, 2007, 02:23:39 PM
Thanks, Trojan.  All these years of toiling away in obscurity and finally some recognition.

Babies suck the energy out of parents, this much I know.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 29, 2007, 03:03:23 PM
They used to believe cats would suck the souls out of babies, as cats would be attracted to the milk breath and be caught licking around the babies mouth after it had been suckling.

Now, of course, we have television.

 



You mean that cat's don't suck out the souls of babies?  
Holy crap!  Does martin know you're here?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on July 29, 2007, 11:56:05 PM
They used to believe cats would suck the souls out of babies, as cats would be attracted to the milk breath and be caught licking around the babies mouth after it had been suckling.

Now, of course, we have television.


You mean that cat's don't suck out the souls of babies?  

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/4/328


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on July 30, 2007, 12:21:37 AM
MEOW!...a death predicting cat and contagious obesity...all in the same issue of New England Journal of Medicine....can't wait to see what's next.   

Think somebody over there is reading the supermarket tabloids? 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on July 30, 2007, 06:03:06 AM
...I did contract obesity once from a cat which I then passes to various members of my extended family. The cat later died but by then it was too late. This was in the days before kittyliter, se we had to use supermarket tabloids in the cat's toilet box.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on July 30, 2007, 06:04:59 AM
please excuse my strange accent while writing, my fingers are doubtfull.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 30, 2007, 06:58:09 AM
The only thing I contract from our cats is some silky-furred loving! Rescue is my faithful bedtime companion, curling up at my feet while I read, then settling near my chest when I close the book and turn out the light. If he is stubbornly sitting in the moonlight when I call him to come in for the night, I only have to say "It's time for bed", and he hops down from his perch and heads for the bed. Snowkitis, on the other hand, only joins us in bed on a cold winter night, where the extra heat is most welcome. Cold nights are two cat nights at our house.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 30, 2007, 10:29:05 AM
I'm an ailurophile, but haven't had a cat since mine vanished about five years ago.  Now I befriend neighbor cats and value their efforts in licking out the smelly remnants from sardine and tuna tins, freshening my trash.

Why does Melba keep closing the door behind me when I click on links here??  I've just noticed it lately, I'll click on something and then the server won't allow me to navigate back here to whatever page I was on with the backwards-arrow thing.  I'll live, but it's puzzling.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 30, 2007, 11:22:59 AM
Have noticed that too.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 30, 2007, 11:43:56 AM
nnyhav re:#822

That's what my mother's forebears must have said. However I had a black cat who slept with me in the kitchen "junior crib" during the late days of the Depression. I vaguely remember being upset when the cat was gone one day. My father apparently did not like them to be indoors. And in those heartless times, saw them as laboratory specimens.

Nevertheless, my curiosity was aroused after whiskey posted one story,lhoffman had read another, et al.  So I dialed up the NEJM which has a very informative on-line edition as you've noticed and I read far too much of in hard copy much earlier in life. But your post reminds me, I noticed what it is that disturbs people about the William Empson poems. He was clinical by nature, could he have studied medicine or the biological sciences? There was some input into his life at some point, because it clearly showed in the particular poem of his pining for love lost, in which he chooses to use a very clinical description of the physical effects left behind by his lost love. Maybe he just picked that up from listening to the physician's diagnosis of his ailment; but he is also renowned for his matter of fact enthusiasm for sexual congress in itself plain no chaser.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on July 30, 2007, 12:21:07 PM
Barton, Melba doesn't seem to have a hold on my back feature (the <- at the top left on my ISP tool bar).  A temporary glitch, you think?  I'm glad that this site runs as well as it does and I'm still curious about who's paying for it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 30, 2007, 12:28:34 PM
I've heard it's some eccentric rich guy who lives in Bismarck, North Dakota and will only handle doorknobs with a kleenex.

But, if it's not, I'd be glad to chip in to cover the costs.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on July 30, 2007, 12:45:41 PM
nnyhav re:#822
[...]
Nevertheless, my curiosity was aroused after whiskey posted one story,lhoffman had read another, et al.  So I dialed up the NEJM which has a very informative on-line edition as you've noticed and I read far too much of in hard copy much earlier in life. But your post reminds me, I noticed what it is that disturbs people about the William Empson poems. He was clinical by nature, could he have studied medicine or the biological sciences? There was some input into his life at some point, because it clearly showed in the particular poem of his pining for love lost, in which he chooses to use a very clinical description of the physical effects left behind by his lost love. Maybe he just picked that up from listening to the physician's diagnosis of his ailment; but he is also renowned for his matter of fact enthusiasm for sexual congress in itself plain no chaser.
I always thought him more of a classicist, though his modernist interest as litterateur got him in trouble -- he was sent down from Oxbridge for possession of French belles-lettres. But, notwithstanding his anatomical delvings, he made his mark more in biochemistry with the development of Empson Salts, which he perfected in Bath.

Lhoffman, I guess the shuttering of Weekly World News explains it -- NEJM's where those fat cats landed, on both feet.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 30, 2007, 01:01:52 PM
Today is Steve's first day on the new job -I confirmed it with him late last week.  Anyone want to join the pool betting on which work day he first posts here from work?

I take Day 2.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 30, 2007, 01:18:52 PM
Belles-Lettres

NNYhav just used this term in a post, and I saw the term in the book I'm reading. I'm curious what the term actually means. Anyone?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 30, 2007, 04:19:04 PM
French Literature as such if deserving of remark  from the Academie.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 30, 2007, 04:27:45 PM
nnyhav #382

I understood the material to say that he was sent down because of the prophylactics found in his rooms by housekeeping staff. I immediately thought "good lord",convent school. They always looked for the cigarettes in our modess boxes while we were in chapel for vespers.

I believe Magnesium sulphate makes up Epsom salts, which does not cause Epsom Downs, although it is a mineral water, whereas you can make up Empson downs as much as you please.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 30, 2007, 09:02:22 PM
If Belles-Lettres is French literature, why would a man be reading to put on airs if he doesn't speak French? I'm reading William Cooper's Town, and a few chapters back, it mentioned that Cooper who wanted to be a part of the "gentry" after the Revolutionary War, used the town library heavily. The book listed what he read, but referred to some group of titles as Belles Lettres. How would reading French literature in English help someone get into the "upper crust". I am having some trouble understanding what the man isn't doing that the "gentry" does not approve of him, other than thinking a bit too much of himself and trying too hard to please those with "old money".

Maybe, I'm just too much of a "commoner" to have a clue what this issue is.




Title: Re: William Cooper's reading matter
Post by: Furphy on July 30, 2007, 09:39:08 PM
Cooper would have been reading essays, memoirs and collected correspondence of literary or historical personages.

Such things as Madame de Sevigne's letters, Lamb's Essays of Elia and Ruskin's lectures are the sort of thing so designated.


Title: Re: What the dictionary says
Post by: Furphy on July 30, 2007, 09:45:14 PM
belles-let·tres      /Fr. b?l?l?tr?/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[Fr. bel-le-truh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–plural noun

1. literature regarded as a fine art, esp. as having a purely aesthetic function. 


2. light and elegant literature, esp. that which is excessively refined, characterized by aestheticism, and minor in subject, substance, or scope. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 30, 2007, 11:04:39 PM
weezo,  this definition is from the Columbia Encyclopedia

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition.  2001-05.
 
belles-lettres
 
 
(bl-l´tr) (KEY)  [from the French for literature, literally “fine letters”], literature that is appreciated for the beauty, artistry, and originality of its style and tone rather than for its ideas and informational content. Earlier the term was synonymous with literature, referring particularly to fiction, poetry, drama, criticism, and essays. However, belletristic literature has come to mean light, artificial writing and essays extolling the beauties of literature.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 30, 2007, 11:46:08 PM
weezo,

"2. light and elegant literature, esp. that which is excessively refined, characterized by aestheticism, and minor in subject, substance, or scope"

from, furphy's definition.

Compares with this last sentence from the Columbia Encyclopedia definition:

"However, belletristic literature has come to mean light, artificial writing and essays extolling the beauties of literature."

Which means that we have but one definition left that say essentially more or less the same, not as the above but as the proper definition.

1.1. literature regarded as a fine art, esp. as having a purely aesthetic function.  (again, furphy)

compared to Columbia Encyclopedia:
"[from the French for literature, literally “fine letters”], literature that is appreciated for the beauty, artistry, and originality of its style and tone rather than for its ideas and informational content. Earlier the term was synonymous with literature, referring particularly to fiction, poetry, drama, criticism, and essays"

There is no suggestion  of ordinary correspondence, even on so diligent a level as the daily inquiry of Madame de Sevigne's as to her daughter's well being, as fulfilling the obligation in style of French literature. Because the language itself literally means "fine letters" does not imply that it refers to correspondence.

Although such a work as, Les Liaisons dangereuses, by Choderlos de Laclos, may be called an epistolary novel because it lends credence or verisimilitude, its chief advantage other than seeming realism is that it does away with the "omniscient narrator" (a characteristic that our old friend in African-American literature, red who eventually changed his pseudonym to blue, disliked with a passion although he seldom attempted to define it. When we read The Known World, by Edward P. Jones, it seemed obvious that all of the chapters,  were not just  alternating, but had a viewpoint expressed by one of the novel's characters rather than an "omniscient narrator".

Thus whether in French or English, belles-lettres is not literally " a letter from one person to another" or letters of correspondence between them.

It is in fact distinctly a work of literature that may have originated long ago in the ability to style elegantly with a goose-quill pen those alphabetical shapes that form words and sentences hour upon an end. Madame de Sevigne, of course, had that leisure at hand.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 31, 2007, 12:22:52 AM
Furphy and Maddie,

Thanks muchly for both of your contributions to my understanding. I am amused by the fact that the literature so described had little purpose other than filling the paper with pretty words instead of substance. I can't imagine a greater waste of reading time. I can imagine that a lot of poetry falls into that category, which probably explains why there is a great body of poetic literature which I have never been induced to sample. Taylor does a fascinating job of portraying Cooper as a wanna-be who never was. Even his wealth was on paper rather than in hard cash. And, such a fuss over whom he has dinner with when he's not home with wifey and kiddies, who are rarely mentioned in the book. Cooper is portrayed as a man's man - pulling his weight in the early settlement. An odd combination, his readings and his actions. The book is a good read.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on July 31, 2007, 12:30:09 AM
Quote
Taylor does a fascinating job of portraying Cooper as a wanna-be who never was.

Do you think that's because Taylor seems to want to focus only on Cooper's pursuit of gentility rather than on his accomplishments?  After all, Cooper became a judge and a congressman, fathered James Fennimore and founded Cooperstown, NY.  Even though the land deal that Cooperstown was a bit shady, his downfall seems to be related more to the fortunes of politics than to anything else.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on July 31, 2007, 09:34:21 AM
Desde -- I'll take day four in the St. Eve pool.  I was wondering why he'd let himself be killed off so easily in the CW forum.  Look for him in the sequel.





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 31, 2007, 09:58:24 AM
Laurie,

I get the impression that Taylor likes to look at the less publicized side of things. I just finished reading his American Colonies and he was brutal on the issues of Natives and Blacks. According to Taylor, the land deal wasn't shaky because of politics, but because of Cooper's intent to become rich and important and his shady deals were more sloppy business than politics.

BTW, I am going to put an announcement on education for my new series of books. Check it out and let me know if it will be useful to you come school-time!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 31, 2007, 02:02:59 PM
weezo, re:#842
"filling the paper with pretty words instead of substance."  In English, that would have translated as, and was,
"the appropriate word to convey the significance". My great aunt told me that emphatically, from the Scot's oral tradition and a pretty complete selection of British and American writers, which I read to her until about three or four years before her death at age 97. 

There is a great deal of substance in Les Liaisons Dangereuses that would have been extremely useful to the Price sisters for instance as time went by, rather that things learned at Bible College (merely only supposing that might have happened as it oft does in Pennsylvania).


" probably explains why there is a great body of poetic literature which I have never been induced to sample."  I am surprised that you would say that as an educator fond of American History.  As Bob, over at that forum can tell you, in our youth, better yet, in grade school, we had to learn to memorize and recite a great deal of historic American poetry in order to get their language for instance --which formed their thought--goes far to explain why they did what they did and why they believed as they did.

In fact, Laurie can probably tell you about ( "fathered James Fennimore ")also  possibly his grandniece,Constance Fenimore Woolson, the great friend of Henry James, who died in Venice at the age of 54; where he hid her connections to him post haste, and then suffered a romantic guilt trip par excellence.  It's that kind of nitty-gritty that my great-aunt warned me is out there. One doesn't have to go to the Congo to have an accident but that's a good place to start just the same.

Oh, by the way,since you asked, although it didn't occur to me,"why would a man be reading to put on airs if he doesn't speak French? Because, as a famous writer known in Europe, at the impoverished end of his life, he went to Paris because he was famously read there.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on July 31, 2007, 02:26:06 PM
Maddie,

I was a special ed teacher who taught English and History to LD and mildly retarded kids. I did try to bring them much more than the usual fare for such children, but I didn't get into the classics. I did my share of memorizing poems. When the poetry board opened, I shared two poems I know from memory. But, my repertoire is limited, and I'm not one to sit around reading a book of poetry or going into great depth into my reading.

Like Taylor, I disdain people who put on airs, and do not pay the "due deference" to my "betters". As my father repeatedly told us growing up, no matter who you are talking about, they still put on their pants the same way, one leg at a time (he also had a more colorful version of what the "betters" do like the "commoners" do. In my last years working, I was gigged for not paying "due deference" to a "doctoral student" who was teaching a class for teachers and doing a lousy job, which I pointed out too widely. When I first started doing a website and was given the authority to run it as it suited me, I had a guy try to horn in on me, and I put him at arms length. I told him what he could do to solve his problem. He wanted more power than I had to grant, and appealled on the basis that he was a DeD. Then he went over my head to a Dr and complained. It was brought up at the next administration meeting. The Dr. announced the problem, and suggested if he ever needed someone to fight for him, I'd be his choice. I explained that I'd told the DeD that DeD's were a dime a dozen and I cut them no slack. Then I asked the Dr., whether he was a PhD or a DeD. Of course, he was a DeD, and everyone had a good laugh.

To explain, I was managing the feeds from the Cleveland Freenet for Academy One. There were some feeds from homeschoolers, and the DeD with the snotty attitude, wanted to control that part of the newsgroup since he was involved with home schooling. The home schoolers were posting some pretty insulting things about public school teachers, and our teachers were complaining. I told the snotty DeD to add some posts to his newsgroups to push the outrageous stuff to the background, and he wouldn't do it. In the end, I just cut off the homeschool feeds and that was the end of that. But, not until I'd told the snotty guy that DeD's were a dime a dozen and gave Va Pen's admininistration a good laugh at his expense. "Due deference" my eye teeth!






Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on July 31, 2007, 03:27:22 PM
Bart - I may have lost already. 



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on July 31, 2007, 09:09:54 PM
Madupont   re: 846

Thank you for reminding me of Constance and by extension, of The Master.  I liked that book very much and hadn't thought of it for a while. 

Perhaps Constance may be best remembered  from James' Portrait of a Lady?

Here is a link to a page with some very lovely photos (scroll down)....and wasn't Constance simply beautiful?

http://www.fictionalcities.co.uk/veniceconstancehenry.htm


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on July 31, 2007, 10:20:17 PM
Madupont   re: 846

Thank you for reminding me of Constance and by extension, of The Master.  I liked that book very much and hadn't thought of it for a while. 

Perhaps Constance may be best remembered  from James' Portrait of a Lady?

Here is a link to a page with some very lovely photos (scroll down)....and wasn't Constance simply beautiful?

http://www.fictionalcities.co.uk/veniceconstancehenry.htm

Constance Fenimore Woolson, Mackinac:
http://www.powow.com/radioactive/tour2005_02.html

from "The Old Stone House" (**SpoilerAlert**):

[...] Hugh's monument stood on a little eminence overlooking the lake. It was of marble, a slender shaft broken at the top, with a profusion of roses growing over the broken place, carved in the marble with life-like fidelity, so that the stone itself seemed to have blossomed. Below, on one side of the base was Hugh's name and age, and on the opposite face was the sentence, "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

"I like it;" said Mr. Leslie, standing with uncovered head beside the grassy mound; "it expresses the idea of the broken young life, and the roses of hope, faith, and even joy which have grown up to cover the place."

"It is appropriate that it stands here overlooking the lake," said Sibyl. "Hugh was so fond of the water, and, on this very lake he lost his life,--gave it up for the sake of others."

"And I like the monument on account of the sentence," said Bessie, who sat by the side of the grave arranging a bunch of autumn leaves.

"The monument is only raised to Hugh's earthly memory," said Aunt Faith. "Hugh is not here; I never feel that I am nearer to him here than at home. But I like to honor the place where his mortal body lies, and I like to think when I die, those who love me will likewise honor my grave."

Bessie completed her wreath and laid it on the mound, and then they all went back to the old stone house, quiet and thoughtful, but not sad; the faith within their hearts was too earnest, and the hope too bright for sadness.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on July 31, 2007, 11:14:29 PM
NNYhav...Nice photos on that site.  I've vacationed on Mackinac several times.  Usually stay at Mission Point, but one year, we stayed at Haan's Bed and Breakfast...not in the Constance Fenimore Woolson room.  The wonderful thing about Mackinac is that there are no cars allowed.  You can get there by ferry, boat or plane.  Getting around the island is walking or biking. 

I used to have Woolson's book, Anne, which my mother gave me when I was younger.  My maiden name was Douglas, and growing up, I had an imaginary friend named Anne, so my mother thought this would be an ideal book for me to take along on vacation.   The book began on the island, but I recall as it went on that Anne moved to NYC and there was a murder involved. 



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on July 31, 2007, 11:17:25 PM
Lhoffman re:#849

This hit me like a ton of bricks:
"The palazzo where Constance Fenimore Woolson stayed in Spring 1894, and from which she committed suicide by jumping from the window of her bedroom into the calle, photographed below."  

(much less so, any current literary controversy in academia, which is always very boring)

The quote opened up a whole new way of seeing the motivations, despite Colm Toibin,who provided the most atmospheric way into all the relationships, between the brothers Willam and Henry James, William and his wife, William to himself!, the very interesting sculptor whom we suspect must be based on the reality of an actual sculptor; and then trailing behind someplace whether mentioned immediately or not,are these whisps of ghosts, cousin Minny(MillyTheale)Temple,sister Alice James, and finally the spectre of Constance.

All of sudden, we have a passing whoosh of a very strong minded, strong willed person who wavered (and we see how she formed certain persons as heroines in several novels that were never before suspected) misjudged her leap and actually killed herself although we are now struck that she may have intended rather to get attention she felt denied and was seriously perturbed about. Seldom mentioned, that it appears she became Kate Croy, and Charlotte Stant; although I'm a little lost about your reference to Portrait of a Lady except of course that it was written in Venice.  But, I thank you ever so much for this field day of literary cross-reference.

It is a shame to consider the loss,  by the family that had owned it, of  part of that grand house that provided such key scenes in the strenuous relationships of Kate Croy, Merton Densher,Milly Theale.  I sometimes felt that I lived there long ago, too long ago to know why,but long enough to remember being there. It has to do with a number of articles lost forever, a set of three interlocking Murano glass ashtrays, a pair of graduated moorish crescent millefiori earrings. Not only should scholars go to poke around and tour the sites, but we all should go before the whole thing sinks beneath the waves;yet, that is apparently the problem. We all are going and everyone describes it that way after being there.

Last but not least, I love Colm Toibin's way of writing; I know that I shouldn't say it, but he absolutely beat the pants off Michael Cunningham's shrill tribute to Virginia Woolf,The Hours, when Toibin published,The Master.




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on July 31, 2007, 11:27:30 PM
NNYhav...Nice photos on that site.  I've vacationed on Mackinac several times.  Usually stay at Mission Point, but one year, we stayed at Haan's Bed and Breakfast...not in the Constance Fenimore Woolson room.  The wonderful thing about Mackinac is that there are no cars allowed.  You can get there by ferry, boat or plane.  Getting around the island is walking or biking. 

I used to have Woolson's book, Anne, which my mother gave me when I was younger.  My maiden name was Douglas, and growing up, I had an imaginary friend named Anne, so my mother thought this would be an ideal book for me to take along on vacation.   The book began on the island, but I recall as it went on that Anne moved to NYC and there was a murder involved. 
I gave Anne to me Mum. But if you do be bringin up The Brother's bizness, at least include da link:
http://www.mackinac.com/haans/index.html
(last up there last May, myself)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on July 31, 2007, 11:42:55 PM
NNYhav...should've thought of the link.  Now I can see if I remember which room we stayed in.  But it is beautiful, isn't it.  Thinking of taking a drive up there in a couple weeks...or maybe wait until September when it's truly peaceful.   Where did you stay where you were there?

Madupont...On Cunningham's Hours:  a bit hard to outdo Mrs. Dalloway.  And as to Constance and Portrait, I had it in mind that Isabel was a mixing of his cousin Minnie Temple and Constance. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on July 31, 2007, 11:48:49 PM
LH: At The Brother's. I'm not so on the outs with my family, more on the inns.

(excuse the eccent, I've been reading Myles na gCopaleen, I have.)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 01, 2007, 12:09:35 AM
LH: At The Brother's. I'm not so on the outs with my family, more on the inns.

(excuse the eccent, I've been reading Myles na gCopaleen, I have.)

Just been looking over this site:

http://web.ncf.ca/bj333/HomePage.flann.html#Yes,More%20of%20It

I knew of Flan but not Myles.  Some pretty fun stuff here.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 01, 2007, 12:15:01 AM
Dave,your brothers place looks nice and the rates seem very reasonable.But there is a pic of the dining room but no mention of what they serve up for breakfast.Us foodies like to know that kind of stuff.It is only breakfast I assume.Dinner in that room would be quite the thing.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 01, 2007, 12:16:03 AM
LH: Oh, pardon me, you meant which room ... they put me up in the attic (not pictured), along with all the other crazy relations.

Bo: Baking, not bacon.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 01, 2007, 12:17:39 AM
LOL....I didn't realize he was actually your brother....I thought you meant it in the street sense, as in "Can you help a brother out?"


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 01, 2007, 12:20:16 AM
Lhoffman and nnyhav,

Interesting visits to Mackinac. The western shore of Lake Michigan had the same landscape but constantly eroding. I played for hours there as a child, taking the forested hill down to the beach and abandoned boat houses. Those hills were full of  Native American arrow-heads.

One of the more delightful sensations was where a park was built for watching the boats out on the vast body of water to which there is no end in sight.And often ships hauling iron ore, or coming in from the St.Lawrence (by the way, those "lighthouses" that you mentioned, on each side of the break-water, are buoys that you can listen to on foggy nights at this time of year as the temperature begins to drop. It is now, however so warm that Lake Superior is 75 degrees F. water-temperature.
The wide descent of the hill park was cleared or vice versa, a wide clearing was made across a width of hill where it was still descending, and if you lay on your back and close your eyes as evening begins with the sun setting behind you, and then suddenly open your eyes, you will become so dizzy that you have to concentrate on the sky because you can feel the curvature of the earth moving forward and sense that you might simply be thrown off into the Lake.

Another thing that nnyhav mentions --the Northern lights are as common as meteor showers at this time of year. You step into the yard, out in the countryside, so that you can help friends find their way to their car  parked on the gravel driveway of the barn, when one of you looks up and says,"My god, what is that...???   There are jagged peaks and abrupt slashes of electric colors, purple,green, dancing and pulsating high in the heavens and descending to the horizon, sometimes entirely encircling you.  You feel like you should run into the house and hide under a bed.  But then, you all look in every direction for an explanation and to keep a lookout for what might happen next. Then you decide the best thing to do is enjoy it by going out to the meadow and dancing in a circle around the pear tree. Eventually, you decide you have to go back in the house to warm up, end up  having coffee, just enough to sleep on, and everybody decides to stay overnight and crashes out where they are until breakfast. When they start asking questions and compare what they experienced the night before. This is what happens if you go out visiting on an ordinary warm summer night around the Great Lakes. You have an experience; usually of some ancient sort.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 01, 2007, 12:30:31 AM
Today is Steve's first day on the new job -I confirmed it with him late last week.  Anyone want to join the pool betting on which work day he first posts here from work?

I take Day 2.

OK then -- I'll take Day 3.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 01, 2007, 12:37:10 AM
The western shore of Lake Michigan is quite beautiful...deep blue.  We used to stop over at Traverse City or Muskegan when driving my son and daughter to music camps.  I think the very best view I've seen of Lake Michigan is at the Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes.  There is a nature path there and one of the overlooks are phenomenal.

http://www.nps.gov/slbe/photosmultimedia/photogallery.htm

The other really beautiful drive is around the eastern edge of the thumb from Detroit up to Port Austin.  Once you get past Selfridge AFB, the drive is quite nice.  There have been times when I've stood on the very tip of Port Austin and the lake on one side would be blue, the other side green.   On the way back home, we drove straight through the middle of the thumb, stopping on the way at the various cemetaries. There was a devastating fire there in 1881 and the story of exactly how devastating can be read in the tombstones.  


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on August 01, 2007, 08:31:04 AM
donotremove:

"and I'm still curious about who's paying for it."


You, the American taxpayers, who else?.....these sites are run by monks wearing heavy thick cassocs.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 01, 2007, 09:41:15 AM
Lake Michigan is beautiful. I've walked along the shore at Manitowoc. BTW, have you ever taken the ferry from Michigan to Manitowoc? I understand it is a nice experience. One of my nieces worked on the ferry during her college days.

I had a friend back in the days when I was finding interesting people to correspond with my students. He was getting his doctorate from Syracuse, and was studying educational philosophy. I put him to discussing philosophy and morality with my students, keeping it secular since they were in a public school, and he did a masterful job. One of my girls "fell in love" with him, and he came to visit my classes one year. She was so disappointed that he was a short, round, bald-headed man! I have no idea how she had pictured him in her mind, but the reality was a real let-down for her! He got his degree, took a position at Western Michigan, moved to the Upper Peninsula, met his true love, and I've heard only once from him since.


Title: Just a thought
Post by: TrojanHorse on August 01, 2007, 07:37:27 PM
Since this is Escape from Elba, should we have a topic called "Napoleon Syndrome?"


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 01, 2007, 10:08:43 PM
Stars at Mackinac, and on the da U.P., were incredible ... no light pollution, air way clear, nothing to contaminate it on its way across western Ontario etc ... Little farther south, across the lake -- the 'rents (just arrived in the attic up there) sent along a bit of newsfeature 'cuz we'd been talkin'bout open air concerts:
http://www.theweekextra.com/news/0707/071907alpinevalley.html
They didn't know that I was at that particular Dead show though ... we were favored with a double rainbow on the drive up too. Now they're bustin' Parrotheads. Heartbreaking ... if only a minor infarction.

Amendum: came across another alpine valley by chance just now (from five years ago):
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/000393.html
Excelsior!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 02, 2007, 05:14:49 PM
nnyhav,

Small world, I hope somebody is saving all this information for whiskeypriest who will have summers on his hands in Chicago;I told him about Madison as much as possible for starters. Was going to mention Lake Geneva.

I am still laughing about your notes re: Empson, to Donne, to Thomas and the lilting sound of Llareggub in Welsh.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 02, 2007, 05:22:47 PM
Sheesh, nnyhav, did you go to Whitewater?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 02, 2007, 05:25:20 PM
trojanhorse #865

Basically, there is no Escape from Elba. Napoleon died at Longwood. So much for that syndrome.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 02, 2007, 10:52:02 PM
Mad, you had to go and mention Lake Geneva. Whence the 'rents retired (last up there last May, myself). But no, I grew up, at least partly, a bit north of Chicago, in an age when the main reason for crossing the state line was beer. College was elsewhere. (Glad you enjoyed the notes connected with Empson, but they're not of my provenance, and besides, a girl can't go on laughing all the time ...)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 02, 2007, 11:14:19 PM
nnyhav, have no concept of 'rents retired. Did you know that on the other side of the state line, you had to gradually move northward to the next county, and the next, and so on to be served beer? It was a rite of passage for males of the species. Glad to hear you did not go to Whitewater and take Library Science or some such.  It was never supposed to be a college in the first place and managed to have a racist standoff once the locals were given the opportunity to actually take a degree in anything--in the midst of the 1960s no less.

It was really the Donne and Thomas and Eliot that brought back childhood memories. Empson doesn't seem the kind of man who thought he was writing for children; now, would he?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on August 03, 2007, 09:57:43 PM
Teddy -

We both lost - Steve actually worked diligently this week!   :-\


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 03, 2007, 10:12:19 PM
Why don't we start complaing about United Airlines and making threats of legal action for removal from flight for a few drinks that led to that lampshade/riding the foodcart incident  on a cross country flight full of nuns on way to a retreat.Then he has a legit excuse for responding.


Title: Re: When what to my wondering eyes did appear....
Post by: Furphy on August 03, 2007, 11:10:32 PM
I got on the Samtrans 391 bus this morning as I do every day on my way to work.

The chances of finding anyone reading on this bus are slim.

The chances of finding anyone reading in English are slim to none.

The chances of finding anyone reading Proust are astronomical.

But there, before my very eyes, was a man nose deep in the second or third volume of the Scott Moncrieff/Gilmartin translation of Proust's magnum opus.

I was so astonished that I spoke to him, mentioning that I too was reading Proust just now.

He spoke not a word to me and now I'll never know how a man reading Proust came to be on that bus. Is he a scholar? A student? A free lance genius?

Ah, sweet mystery of life.....


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 03, 2007, 11:21:12 PM
Oh,well, as with Proust, he may have had his own reasons for preferring to read Proust than any number of reflections from literary ladies; more of a man's man in his literary interests. I think to myself, what would Proust have read, if he was not always and forever writing? As such, he might be disinclined to entertain even the nicest of enthusiastic  approaches from an individual of the opposite sex.


Title: Re: Who'd a thunk it?
Post by: Furphy on August 04, 2007, 12:20:33 AM
I never expected to see the day when the book I want to buy most is Ann Budd's new book on knitting socks.

It has one doozy of a red and yellow striped sock pattern that I am just dying to try out.

Oh, the dear delights of knitting socks! The craft has a culture all its own. I belong to a sock knitting group online that has over 11,000 members and generates 300+ posts a week.


Title: Re: Squirrley Brits
Post by: Furphy on August 04, 2007, 12:25:12 AM
I loved the story about the squirrel who shoplifts candy from the local market, Bo.

It reminds me of the Brits at the foreign exchange office. By now everyone in the office, regardless of national origin, is fixated on sweets. There is an official sweets drawer that is raided by all staff members at need and at will. From time to time a call goes out that the supply needs to be replenished and then everyone must pony up some cash or bring in several bags of sweets of their own choosing.

And the chewing gum consumption! If you've got any money in a 401(k) plan be sure to invest it with Wrigley's.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on August 04, 2007, 10:03:51 AM
Stars at Mackinac, and on the da U.P.,
That's 'the Yoop."  Pronouncing it "U.P." will mark you as a rube amongst rubes.

Ah, no posting privileges in forums or message boards from UAL puters.  Holy snaffinarses, I'm going to actually have to work!

Hope all are well.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 04, 2007, 10:06:03 AM
Bummer, Whiskey.  As in billable hours?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on August 04, 2007, 10:07:34 AM
I don't work on the billable hours basis anymore.  Straight salary.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on August 04, 2007, 10:39:57 AM
Good luck keeping the skies friendly, Whisky.  If the work ever does slow down, what about a blackberry or other mobile net device?



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on August 04, 2007, 10:43:12 AM
By the way, my 9:30 p.m. CST flight from ORD to CLE last night left at 12:45 a.m. CST.  Any idea who I should complain to, other than perhaps myself?

They already have me talking in acronyms and airport codes.  How "O'Hare" translates to "ORD" is beyond me.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on August 04, 2007, 10:50:14 AM
And I don't even want to know about LAX.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 04, 2007, 11:33:16 AM
Oh, I know about LAX. That's where the friendly but addictively conditioned Japanese-American gamblers disembark with all their copy-cat ostentatious consumerism. And the belly-button revealing down on their hard luck lower class wandering wander around in a daze left out of society in general.

ORD is a code I can crack if I really try since my sometimes really communicative brother works for the enemy. In the whiskey vernacular that is.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 04, 2007, 12:39:00 PM
ORD is designated because of Morse Code use. In terms of International flight it would designate O'Hare as KORD. Check with your International Civil Aviation Organization.  My brother was employed with this field of work for longer than whiskey is old.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 04, 2007, 01:35:06 PM
This father´s 63 year-old heart is surely fit.

The wonder of love.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-wpNGQzRqQ



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 04, 2007, 05:05:18 PM
Bulwer-Lytton '07:
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/english/2007.htm



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 05, 2007, 06:18:04 PM
Angelica's first steps (my great-niece)..

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-2209236764511110298


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 05, 2007, 06:33:25 PM
Des,

Maybe it's not such a bad thing -- I seem to have a vague sense of a memory that at some point a number of years ago when Whiskey was making major contributions to several of the books forums on a regular basis, a job ended and went on to the next -- though perhaps there was no connection.


Title: Re: Who'd a thunk it?
Post by: teddy174c on August 05, 2007, 06:34:56 PM
I never expected to see the day when the book I want to buy most is Ann Budd's new book on knitting socks.

It has one doozy of a red and yellow striped sock pattern that I am just dying to try out.

Oh, the dear delights of knitting socks! The craft has a culture all its own. I belong to a sock knitting group online that has over 11,000 members and generates 300+ posts a week.

Furphy - Ha!  The wonders of the Internet ..

Must be nice to be all set for Christmas gifts.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 05, 2007, 06:36:41 PM
This father´s 63 year-old heart is surely fit.

The wonder of love.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-wpNGQzRqQ



Martin -- This reminds me I meant to say I enjoyed You Tube video of your wife and orchestra - beautiful!

This was a very moving video too albeit differently.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 05, 2007, 06:37:44 PM
I am devastated by a death that has just occurred about 2/3 - 3/4 of the way through The Deathly Hallows -- a favorite character whose passing I think saddens me more than any that have happened before.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 05, 2007, 07:45:41 PM
Teddy,

I spent the day with a rowdy crowd of great nieces and nephews! One lives here, the 3 month old. The rest, 15 mos, 3 years, and 5 years, were visiting from Michigan and had been here all week. I arrived armed with toys, home-made books, and fried chicken. I came away feeling well loved. I am imagining what such a visit will be like in the years to come as they all get older!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 05, 2007, 10:40:30 PM
Weezo -- that's a lot of little ones!  Sounds like a wonderful day.  I can already see similarities between my great-nephew and his Dad, (my nephew), when he was four, five, six, both the first born sons -- in the canny drinking in and studying of the adults, the skillful attempts at manipulation already at such a young age, (four), the attempts to divert attention from his little sister (the one above), alternating with kindly gestures towards and talking to her.  I remember my older nephew at about 6-7 pinching or pushing my younger nephew age 3-4 in a children's playground, and me feeling (and acting) protective towards the younger one.  At any rate -- when in theory all seems possible for such children who are so well loved and fortunate to be born where they are, I also wonder if the blueprint genetic map isn't already written, the particular values instilled, the path set by both DNA and environment. 
 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 05, 2007, 10:49:07 PM
The city of Vancouver is coming to the end (we hope) of a garbage strike, with the union and the City of Vancouver in negotiations finally as I write this.  The strike has unfortunately coincided with some major summer events - including the Celebration of Light (four days of fireworks from end of July through last night, with huge crowds gathered on the beaches, crowds that have traditionally left piles of garbage in their wake) and today the Gay Pride parade, also a huge event.  However, citizens have pitched in to "pack in-pack out" their garbage, and volunteers have picked up after the events, so the mountains of garbage have not materialized and in fact been less than in previous years for this reason. 







Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 06, 2007, 12:50:42 AM
Teddy,

Certainly, there is always discussion of who the little ones look like. I noticed that the 15 month old boy has my father, his great-grandfathers wayward blonde hair. The six year old girl, is a carbon copy of her mother and grandmother, but with my longer face, which is mitigated by her new glasses. The three year old is so much like her aunt. In the second generation from my parents, there is a pechant for the boys with the name John either as first or middle name, to be the spitting image of their grandfather, my father. There is a thread of autism that runs through the first and second generation from my parents, but in the children I saw today, there is no evidence of that thread. It is strongest with my sister Chris, who has two autistic sons out of three, and there is autism in her husband family as well as ours.

The children I saw today are living in middle class families. Both parents of all the children are college educated. I'm sure that is why the five year old put the pieces together and is a fluent reader at the end of Kindergarten. The genes were there, and the environment fostered the possibilities. She is the most dedicated reader of all the stories I write.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 06, 2007, 02:10:00 PM
TEDDY,Our lady of the Aurora Borealis, thank you.I just can´t imagine the Canadians leaving garbage behind after being in a park.

WEEZO, all the children of my extended and expanded family read and write by the end of their last kindergarden year...and talk and shout and fight and jump on sofas and play with the playstation full blast and the TV on, plus the PC games all at the same time until they are thrown by yours truly out into the frozen winter lawn or closed into the Showcase Cinemas to watch Harry Potter the umpeth or Citizen Simpson.They are only saved because they look so lovely.

Beware of kids, they shall inherit the earth together with the coakroaches.
signed: the Humbell Apossell


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 06, 2007, 02:19:44 PM
LET´S MEANDER THIS WAY:

new K/SF meeting to be held in this humbell abode:

http://www.burj-al-arab.com/

Please star saving to pay for the Humbell Apossell´s room.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 06, 2007, 02:21:43 PM
today I fell like ich bein an arab

i hope i´ll be not persekooted by the CIA and FBI for  ANAMAC (anti american activeetees).


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 06, 2007, 04:28:57 PM
[...] signed: the Humbell Apossell

Just look within at where you find yourself!

Euphemism of the Day: H-E-Double-Hockey-Puck-Sockers


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 06, 2007, 04:48:25 PM
Read an interesting article on the golden anniversary of On the Road,

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/generalfiction/story/0,,2141675,00.html#article_continue

Apparently the orginal 1951 text will finally see the light of day.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 06, 2007, 10:24:04 PM
Teddy,

... my sister Chris, who has two autistic sons out of three, and there is autism in her husband family as well as ours.

The children I saw today are living in middle class families. Both parents of all the children are college educated. I'm sure that is why the five year old put the pieces together and is a fluent reader at the end of Kindergarten. The genes were there, and the environment fostered the possibilities. She is the most dedicated reader of all the stories I write.

Weezo,

I hope for their sakes my great nephew and niece develop the joys of reading as your five year old has done (as well as being read to, as most kids do).  Currently, cars and movies are my nephew's main interests, although, his grandmother being a teacher-librarian and avid reader (in fact she ordered the first Harry Potter for her school library well before it spiked in popularity with the masses, having thought it pretty good) and expert on children's literature, I think chances are good. Though it's a private matter really I guess -- children take to literature or they don't of their own accord.

What grade did/do you teach.  Do you write for your young relatives only or are you published? 




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 06, 2007, 10:25:49 PM
TEDDY,Our lady of the Aurora Borealis, thank you.I just can´t imagine the Canadians leaving garbage behind after being in a park.

Martin -- Well .. I will leave you to your pleasant delusions of Canadian cleanliness ....

Suffice it to say, the rats are having a field day -- so I hope the strike is about to end..


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 06, 2007, 10:36:43 PM
Teddy,

I am published, in that my stories are on the web. Each one can be personalized to the child who will read it. If your nephew is interested in cars and motory things, find books about the things he is interested in, and use them to  lure him into reading. Sorry, I cannot promise to write such stories. I'm not very mechanically inclined. If he was, or would develop, an interest in history, my stories would interest him. I do have some other series, and am working on developing a geography series that will include travel to interesting places. To see the books, go to http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/books

In addition, I have one story "in press" that should be published after the first of the year (not sure exactly how long these things take). The illustrator has until Dec 1 to complete his/her work. That is not a personalized story, but a cat story.

And, I am negotiating with a publisher in South Africa who hopes to be able to print the personalized books per order. I don't know when or if that will come to be.

So, while I started out writing for my family, it has grown past that point. My family members are still the ones I want most to impress, since I can gauge their reaction better than just taking the thanks from those who email me about the stories.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 06, 2007, 10:53:03 PM
Teddy,

I am published, in that my stories are on the web. Each one can be personalized to the child who will read it. If your nephew is interested in cars and motory things, find books about the things he is interested in, and use them to  lure him into reading. Sorry, I cannot promise to write such stories. I'm not very mechanically inclined. If he was, or would develop, an interest in history, my stories would interest him. I do have some other series, and am working on developing a geography series that will include travel to interesting places. To see the books, go to http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/books

In addition, I have one story "in press" that should be published after the first of the year (not sure exactly how long these things take). The illustrator has until Dec 1 to complete his/her work. That is not a personalized story, but a cat story.

And, I am negotiating with a publisher in South Africa who hopes to be able to print the personalized books per order. I don't know when or if that will come to be.

So, while I started out writing for my family, it has grown past that point. My family members are still the ones I want most to impress, since I can gauge their reaction better than just taking the thanks from those who email me about the stories.



Wow -- I'm going to peruse these (I have Halloween Hayride with music up now as I write this) and try a couple of these out with Robert next time he comes over!  Thanks!



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nytempsperdu on August 06, 2007, 11:09:09 PM
Have been away and am not even close to catching up in a number of subjects hereabouts, but in case whiskeypriest happens by, I did want to note that in the Polish phrase book being studied by daughter & SIL for upcoming trip beginning in Krakow, in the section entitled "Sex Phrases" is one the English translation of which is "Never mind, I'll do it myself."  Ah, the practical Poles!!!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 06, 2007, 11:35:06 PM
Teddy,

Glad you are enjoying the stories. There are two halloween stories because the first one I wrote was "too scary" for Libby, so I wrote the Halloween Hayride, and then made the original a bit scarier, for the Haunted Hayride. Both stories are based on a Hayride that a local farm used to run until their kids got too old and went off to college.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 07, 2007, 03:28:07 AM
Read an interesting article on the golden anniversary of On the Road,

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/generalfiction/story/0,,2141675,00.html#article_continue

Apparently the orginal 1951 text will finally see the light of day.


“It is better to be out than in. It is better to be on the lam than on the cover of Time Magazine”
                                                                                                                                   — Nelson Algren

There is only one thing wrong with this picture, and that is that the highbrow stimulus still has to be imported. Algren, who is coming to write more and more like Céline, has no difficulty selling his fiction. On the other hand, an author like Jack Kerouac, who is in his small way the peer of Céline, Destouches, or Beckett, is the most famous “unpublished” author in America. Every publisher’s reader and adviser of any moment has read him and was enthusiastic about him. In other words, anybody emerging from the popular field has every advantage. It is still extremely difficult to enter American fiction from the top down.
                                                                                                                                --  Kenneth Rexroth
Disengagement:
The Art of the Beat Generation

Literature generally, but literary criticism in particular, has always been an area in which social forces assume symbolic guise, and work out — or at least exemplify — conflicts taking place in the contemporary, or rather, usually the just past, wider arena of society. Recognition of this does not imply the acceptance of any general theory of social or economic determinism. It is a simple, empirical fact. Because of the pervasiveness of consent in American society generally, that democratic leveling up or down so often bewailed since de Tocqueville, American literature, especially literary criticism, has usually been ruled by a “line.” The fact that it was spontaneously evolved and enforced only by widespread consent has never detracted from its rigor — but rather the opposite. It is only human to kick against the prodding of a Leopold Auerbach or an Andrei Zhdanov. An invisible, all-enveloping compulsion is not likely to be recognized, let alone protested against.

After World War I there was an official line for general consumption: “Back to Normalcy.” Day by day in every way, we are getting better and better. This produced a literature which tirelessly pointed out that there was nothing whatsoever normal about us. The measure of decay in thirty years is the degree of acceptance of the official myth today — from the most obscure hack on a provincial newspaper to the loftiest metaphysicians of the literary quarterlies. The line goes: “The generation of experimentation and revolt is over.” This is an etherealized corollary of the general line: “The bull market will never end.”

I do not wish to argue about the bull market, but in the arts nothing could be less true. The youngest generation is in a state of revolt so absolute that its elders cannot even recognize it. The disaffiliation, alienation, and rejection of the young has, as far as their elders are concerned, moved out of the visible spectrum altogether. Critically invisible, modern revolt, like X-rays and radioactivity, is perceived only by its effects at more materialistic social levels, where it is called delinquency.

“Disaffiliation,” by the way, is the term used by the critic and poet, Lawrence Lipton, who has written several articles on this subject, the first of which, in the Nation, quoted as epigraph, “We disaffiliate . . .“ —John L. Lewis.

Like the pillars of Hercules, like two ruined Titans guarding the entrance to one of Dante’s circles, stand two great dead juvenile delinquents — the heroes of the post-war generation: the saxophonist, Charlie Parker, and Dylan Thomas. If the word “deliberate” means anything, both of them certainly deliberately destroyed themselves.

Both of them were overcome by the horror of the world in which they found themselves, because at last they could no longer overcome that world with the weapon of a purely lyrical art. Both of them were my friends. Living in San Francisco I saw them seldom enough to see them with a perspective which was not distorted by exasperation or fatigue. So as the years passed, I saw them each time in the light of an accelerated personal conflagration.

The last time I saw Bird, at Jimbo’s Bob City, he was so gone — so blind to the world — that he literally sat down on me before he realized I was there. “What happened, man?” I said, referring to the pretentious “Jazz Concert.” “Evil, man, evil,” he said, and that’s all he said for the rest of the night. About dawn he got up to blow. The rowdy crowd chilled into stillness and the fluent melody spiraled through it.

The last time I saw Dylan, his self-destruction had not just passed the limits of rationality. It had assumed the terrifying inertia of inanimate matter. Being with him was like being swept away by a torrent of falling stones.

Now Dylan Thomas and Charlie Parker have a great deal more in common than the same disastrous end. As artists, they were very similar. They were both very fluent. But this fluent, enchanting utterance had, compared with important artists of the past, relatively little content. Neither of them got very far beyond a sort of entranced rapture at his own creativity. The principal theme of Thomas’s poetry was the ambivalence of birth and death — the pain of blood-stained creation. Music, of course, is not so explicit an art, but anybody who knew Charlie Parker knows that he felt much the same way about his own gift. Both of them did communicate one central theme: Against the ruin of the world, there is only one defense — the creative act. This, of course, is the theme of much art — perhaps most poetry. It is the theme of Horace, who certainly otherwise bears little resemblance to Parker or Thomas. The difference is that Horace accepted his theme with a kind of silken assurance. To Dylan and Bird it was an agony and terror. I do not believe that this is due to anything especially frightful about their relationship to their own creativity. I believe rather that it is due to the catastrophic world in which that creativity seemed to be the sole value. Horace’s column of imperishable verse shines quietly enough in the lucid air of Augustan Rome. Art may have been for him the most enduring, orderly, and noble activity of man. But the other activities of his life partook of these values. They did not actively negate them. Dylan Thomas’s verse had to find endurance in a world of burning cities and burning Jews. He was able to find meaning in his art as long as it was the answer to air raids and gas ovens. As the world began to take on the guise of an immense air raid or gas oven, I believe his art became meaningless to him. I think all this could apply to Parker just as well, although, because of the nature of music, it is not demonstrable — at least not conclusively.

Thomas and Parker have more in common than theme, attitude, life pattern. In the practice of their art, there is an obvious technical resemblance. Contrary to popular belief, they were not great technical innovators. Their effects are only superficially startling. Thomas is a regression from the technical originality and ingenuity of writers like Pierre Reverdy or Apollinaire. Similarly, the innovations of bop, and of Parker particularly, have been vastly overrated by people unfamiliar with music, especially by that ignoramus, the intellectual jitterbug, the jazz aficionado. The tonal novelties consist in the introduction of a few chords used in classical music for centuries. And there is less rhythmic difference between progressive jazz, no matter how progressive, and Dixieland, than there is between two movements of many conventional symphonies.

What Parker and his contemporaries — Gillespie, Davis, Monk, Roach (Tristano is an anomaly), etc. — did was to absorb the musical ornamentation of older jazz into the basic structure, of which it then became an integral part, and with which it then developed. This is true of the melodic line which could be put together from selected passages of almost anybody — Benny Carter, Johnny Hodges. It is true of the rhythmic pattern in which the beat shifts continuously, or at least is continuously sprung, so that it becomes ambiguous enough to allow the pattern to be dominated by the long pulsations of the phrase or strophe. This is exactly what happened in the transition from baroque to rococo music. It is the difference between Bach and Mozart.

It is not a farfetched analogy to say that this is what Thomas did to poetry. The special syntactical effects of a Rimbaud or an Edith Sitwell — actually ornaments — become the main concern. The metaphysical conceits, which fascinate the Reactionary Generation still dominant in backwater American colleges, were embroideries. Thomas’s ellipses and ambiguities are ends in themselves. The immediate theme, if it exists, is incidental, and his main theme — the terror of birth — is simply reiterated.

This is one difference between Bird and Dylan which should be pointed out. Again, contrary to popular belief, there is nothing crazy or frantic about Parker either musically or emotionally. His sinuous melody is a sort of naïve transcendence of all experience. Emotionally, it does not resemble Berlioz or Wagner; it resembles Mozart. This is true also of a painter like Jackson Pollock. He may have been eccentric in his behavior, but his paintings are as impassive as Persian tiles. Partly this difference is due to the nature of verbal communication. The insistent talk-aboutiveness of the general environment obtrudes into even the most idyllic poetry. It is much more a personal difference. Thomas certainly wanted to tell people about the ruin and disorder of the world. Parker and Pollock wanted to substitute a work of art for the world.

Technique pure and simple, rendition, is not of major importance, but it is interesting that Parker, following Lester Young, was one of the leaders of the so-called saxophone revolution. In modern jazz, the saxophone is treated as a woodwind and played with conventional embouchure. Metrically, Thomas’s verse was extremely conventional, as was, incidentally, the verse of that other tragic enragé, Hart Crane.

I want to make clear what I consider the one technical development in the first wave of significant post-war arts. Ornament is confabulation in the interstices of structure. A poem by Dylan Thomas, a saxophone solo by Charles Parker, a painting by Jackson Pollock — these are pure confabulations as ends in themselves. Confabulation has come to determine structure. Uninhibited lyricism should be distinguished from its exact opposite — the sterile, extraneous invention of the corn-belt metaphysicals, our present blight of poetic professors.

Just as Hart Crane had little influence on anyone except very reactionary writers — like Allen Tate, for instance, to whom Valéry was the last word in modern poetry and the felicities of an Apollinaire, let alone a Paul Éluard, were nonsense — so Dylan Thomas’s influence has been slight indeed. In fact, his only disciple — the only person to imitate his style — was W.S. Graham, who seems to have imitated him without much understanding, and who has since moved on to other methods. Thomas’s principle influence lay in the communication of an attitude — that of the now extinct British romantic school of the New Apocalypse — Henry Treece, J.F. Hendry, and others — all of whom were quite conventional poets.

Parker certainly had much more of an influence. At one time it was the ambition of every saxophone player in every high school band in America to blow like Bird. Even before his death this influence had begun to ebb. In fact, the whole generation of the founding fathers of bop — Gillespie, Monk, Davis, Blakey, and the rest — are just now at a considerable discount. The main line of development today goes back to Lester Young and bypasses them.

END OF FIRST PART,WHICH GOES ON TO PLASTIC ARTS. by Kenneth Rexroth


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 07, 2007, 07:09:50 AM
On the Road: The Original Scroll

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/067006355X/ref=ord_cart_shr/105-5791205-4542015?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 07, 2007, 10:07:22 AM
Influences aside, I think Kerouac struck a nerve (obviously) and was never able to grips with the phenomenon he created in On the Road.  I loved Burroughs' comments, cynical as always but spot on.  I look forward to reading the original version, as apparently Kerouac elaborates on a number of the situations, such as that between Cassidy and Ginsberg.  Cassidy totally defined the image of the "free spirit."  I loved Tom Wolfe's descriptions of him in The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test.  Anyway, it is good to see that Kerouac is not forgotten, unfortunately the branding of his name goes too far.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 07, 2007, 11:17:29 AM
Dzimas re:#910

You really think this new sales pitch is the "original version"? I merely acknowledge it as more hype in pr for a probable movie which people will later make comments upon in the movie forum at this venue in some displeasure about how things were conveyed and by whom.

Incidentally, Ginsberg has covered that Cassady interlude on which Carolyn walked in, turned on her heel and slammed the door, "Not with my husband...." that sort of thing.  Ginsberg had been going through therapy at Columbia, and loosened up his wardrobe and his affiliation with William Carlos Williams whose influence upon his poetry is obvious. The psychiatric prognosis was if Ginsberg could take off his tie,shirt,and suit, for a looser garment, he might actually be able to acknowledge his sexual preference by actuating it.  NEAL was willing to give it a try. Later,Ginsberg had a long-term significant other partnership for the rest of his life with Peter Orlovsky.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 07, 2007, 11:19:24 AM
Dzimas,

Much as I admire O'Hagan's capacity to conduct an interview, having just seen and heard him expertly conduct the Normal Mailer and Gunter Grass interview at the New York Public Library for The Paris Review, he occasionally misses the beat on the factuality of the point he wishes to emphasize.

"It also, as Kerouac's friend and fellow Beat writer, William Burroughs,"  Hardly a "fellow Beat writer; although he wrote things we still read, they are just Bill who was actually an heir to the business machine company whose name he bears  That connection allowed him to get off on a murder charge, nicely legally arranged as a pay off of a Mexican judge, when Bill shot his wife in the head. But that was back in the days when Burroughs was still growing grass as another sort of business venture on his Texas ranch. I'd have to guess that eventually it was Bill's money that took him and Allen Ginsberg and Gregory Corso to Paris  and later on to North Africa, since by now all three of them are deceased and no longer available to conjecture back in memory while you sit down and have a drink together(at least in the case of the latter with whom I did exactly that in Madison,Wisconsin in Feb.1981).  Burroughs had access to money not as readily available to the two poets, which allowed him to have inordinate influence with his own ideas on poetry when it came to how they spent their time in the further development of their early  work. Like the character depicted in A Beautiful Life, by  Russell Crowe as John Nash, cutting out scraps of underlined phrases from magazines and newspapers and  hanging them on the walls of his garage to analyze for putative CIA agent Ed Harris who requested the fulfillment of this assignment, William Burroughs  was cutting out scraps of copy for Ginsberg and Corso and himself to shuffle together randomly to combine as poems as they sat around getting high at their gite ,#9 Rue de la Coeur,Paris.         

Along about paragraph five in Sean O'Hagan's coverage,that starts out with a Bob Dylan quote, the account of the "Road" influence upon American culture just goes to show how derivative our media culture has been.  We are a bunch of copy-cat personality disorders in lieu of ego and we do this in great abandon to what ever the latest fad going that hypes us into the false perception that we are somebody with a self that unfortunately at present is without substance honored by the contemporary political administration.       

Two paragraphs later, O'Hagan goes on to say that even before Kerouac is actually published we get this influence and," the intense way he lived some kind of precursor to the 'nowness' that the Beats strived for in both art and life.", is how he describes Jackson Pollack notorious and intense as only a drunk  can be. Jack Kerouac of course also had this problematic bent.

"Twelve years later, Kerouac was dead. The physical cause was cirrhosis of the liver, brought on by years of alcohol abuse".  Not exactly, but most people assume that is how an alcoholic dies. Jack had phlebitis for years. When he died in 1969, it was of an aortic aneurysm that hemorraged in his belly. Ginsberg, Orlovsky,and Corso, and a few others attended the funeral in great mournful sadness but it changed very little about how their own lives would end.

Even this "1960s Moved to Florida to escape media attention and care for his mother." is an exaggeration wrought from ignorance, apparently by someone named Hugh Montgomery, editor or fact checker of some kind at the Observor or The Guardian Unlimited.  This is how the myths got going in the first place.

Jack never went to St.Petersburg to care for his mother(there was some kind of a football game taking place there in October) but he always went home to Mama Kerouac, he had done that his entire life when things failed him, following whatever roading; and as you probably noticed he leaned likewise on an entire series of women who were there for him, close at hand, until he could get back to his mother for real. Jack had an early fear of death ingrained in him; his mother had lost another son, Gerard, whom Jack agonized about from very early on in his own childhood because he closely identified and felt that if Gerard could just go like that so might he. And that he did.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 07, 2007, 11:28:55 AM
Dzimas,

I gather you have daughters or a daughter.  I think you might agree with me about where Jack could not draw the line in his conduct, if maybe later I tell you about an incident from the point of view of Papa Rexroth.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 07, 2007, 11:31:48 AM
Maddy, it may be hyped but it took six years to get the book into print, with much editing along the way, so yes I buy into the hype surrounding the original scroll.  I think it will be great to see how Kerouac conceived the book.  You blather on and on about the period as though you lived it. Maybe you did, but for me it was the sense of ecstasy with which Kerouac wrote, trying to capture the moment as best he could.  It is too bad that Cassidy is virtually forgotten and most people think of Kerouac when the heros of his two major works were Cassidy and Snyder.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 07, 2007, 11:37:25 AM
As I understand, Jack denied all paternity rights to Jan Kerouac.  She wrote a book sometime back but I didn't read it.  Kerouac is a hard person to figure.  He was basically conservative, not at all the free spirit he has been projected as being.  He couldn't deal with his overnight stardorm, denied any relation to the generation of "road warriors" he inspired, including the Merry Pranksters.  Basically, he seemed caught in a time warp, unable to deal with the changing times.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 07, 2007, 11:40:12 AM
By the way, the Library of America will also be issueing a collection of Kerouac's writings:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1598530127/ref=ord_cart_shr/103-5711346-4722226?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

Surprised Desolation Angels isn't included.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 07, 2007, 11:47:59 AM
Excuse me, that should be Neal Cassady.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 07, 2007, 02:01:28 PM
Jesus, I wasn't referring to Jan Kerouac!  I was speaking of Jack's drunken conduct of making sexual advances toward Rexroth's underage daughters;  when he participated in readings with the rest of the guys that made the trip out to San Francisco.  Since Rexroth had arranged the first public readings (and perhaps I should have posted that excerpt in his own words), he was also habitually the host, throughout the years that he lived in the apartment on Pine in San Franciso, for continuing soirees that they all attended from the time of Louis Zukofsky,through the Berkeley writers like Gary Snyder and Philip Whalen, Robert Creeley who had the same difficult in reading through a drunken bender because he could not pronounce the words and be understood when he went on reading tour, and then the little group that made up the later Naropa School of Disembodied Poetry, unfortunately named after the world's oldest historic university in India, but that was the threesome Kerouac, Ginsberg,Corso.  The neighbours Kathleen and Eldridge Cleaver were, during the Black Panther split between the San Francisco and Oakland factions of the party, about the last of it until Rexroth was offered the house on Pepper Lane, above Montecito.  At that point, Mary and Katharine were old enough to not want to relocate to Santa Barbara and preferred to remain in San Francisco as admittedly everything was happening there in the Haight; whereas he had originally wanted to relocate to Oxford, UK

I lost a previous post having to do with Malcolm Cowley more politically akin to Rexroth but a Greenwich Village habitue who did not sit around for six years waiting as editorial consultant for Kerouac to put his crumbled pocket notes and slips of paper into stacks. What you are dealing with,is somewhat unadmittedly by publishers, a case of Kerouac unwilling to piece his own notes together or write a book, and Cowley did not. Eventually, rather than get dropped on his head, he went for burn out on Benzedrine in a non-stop production. If you ever in those years had to sit through somebody bending your ear while they were high until they crashed, you'd have a clearer picture of this production.

Which accounts for how it can now blithely be rewritten in very unKerouacian sentiments to appeal to the sexual mores common to our era that were not considered by Roman Catholic Kerouac as whatever you prefer to imagine a man with a brother-complex approving.  He wanted his long lost brother back but otherwise, as far as we can trust the criteria of the  women who insist on his heterosexuality -- It is what it is.  And he drank and took overdoses of drugs to deal.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 07, 2007, 02:48:01 PM
I suppose there are a lot of interpretations of Kerouac's intoxicated behavior.  I saw a clip of him playing piano in an inebriated state on the Buckley show in some documentary.  I believe it was What Happened to Kerouac?   Carolyn Cassady said that the heavy binging didn't occur until after the success of On the Road, although he was a man who loved to drink.  Seemed that he tried to clean himself up on several occasions, but such was not to be.  Obviously, he was a mixed-up man.  His writing is inconsistent, as were his manners, but it seemed that more than one woman had a special affinity for him.  Joyce Johnson offers a touching account of her relationship with Kerouac in Minor Characters.  By the way, the movie is still on, and Salles is still slated to direct it.  I heard that Kirsten Dunst has been picked to play Carolyn.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: caclark on August 07, 2007, 03:45:52 PM
If we compiled a list of literary greats who drank to excess and behaved atrociously at times, it would read like a who’s who in literature. This is tabloid stuff to be distinguished from due appreciation of great literature. I don’t have to admire an author as a man in order to admire his work.

The most petty and silly criticism of Kerouac I ever heard was Truman Capote saying, that’s not writing, that’s just typing. But consider the source, a Kerouac rival with aspirations of his own for literary acclaim.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 07, 2007, 03:57:10 PM
Dzimas

Yes. I saw that, and I can't help but hope that you get Harnett in spades which was what I started to say before blowing a post out the window. The profit motive of the 50th.anniversaire is right on target. You get a bank like  Coppolla writing in the margins to pay Salles to direct in his lovable style of innocent young men before they end up on the infamous list , and wow, obviously, there is a reason to re-bowdlerize the original edition's version the great novel of the Beat Generation.  As a member of it, I protest.

Mr. Kerouac was not the first person that came to mind as group leader. I knew he was for some guys who had just came back from service and were catching up on new things to be done and they ended up pretty much that way  in habits although they were in  things like High mathematical computer tech responsibility with two kids and then the new marriage for whatever reasons unknown; in a way, they too had been On the Road. From town to town, country to country, annoying the wife to pieces when she began to catch on what the travel involved. To their credit they also read Roth.

But, as for literary interest, we read the important European writers of the era, The theatre of the Absurd, God is Dead and all that. We were pretty aware of the jack-ass years of Senators McCarthy and Nixon.

I certainly did hang around the musicians you liked because having some background myself, I could write lyric, backing it up against how they were working and, little expected being asked by them to check it out with them but that was just the frosting on the cake on top of running it by someone whose critical judgement was experienced in Poetry and Jazz readings of that kind.  Rexroth and Charlie Mingus had written a little something for the San Francisco Opera, known as The Seven Deadly Sins; so, when I made an off-night at The Blue Note, and observed Mingus tutoring Jackie Mclean in the intricacies of music notation and interpretation that was just an extra to meeting the genius composer of jazz who was, to those unable to grasp that factor for lack of their own musicality, merely a madman in his displays of temper.

By the weirdest of coincidences he married a woman whose family lived down the block in our mutual hometown. She has kept his music alive ever since, although she accompanied him to India so that his ashes could be scattered where the rivers conjoin in the north.

When the war in Vietnam had begun, having given my current writing, in another genre entirely, to Rexroth for his criticism, I began doing the booking of his reading tours on the collegiate circuit which were merely literary cover to present an anti-war position to students up for the draft.

And so it goes. Enough said.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 08, 2007, 10:41:23 AM
[...] signed: the Humbell Apossell

Just look within at where you find yourself!

Euphemism of the Day: H-E-Double-Hockey-Puck-Sockers

Whas dat? please translate for the Humbell Apossell,he is a friendly alien. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 08, 2007, 11:01:46 AM
Maddie,one the Julio Cortázar´s best stories ,"El perseguidor" is based on the life of Charlie Parker and *in memoriam*,so he says.It is included in "Las armas secretas".We read it with the LatAm.lit at the NYT. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 09, 2007, 05:18:32 AM
Maddy,

Sue Mingus has done a wonderful job in making so many of Mingus' recordings available.  I recentrly received his concert at UCLA, and it is a valuable document for Mingus fans.

The article from the Guardian I linked talks about the branding of Kerouac.  Coppola has apparently held the movie rights to the novel since 1968 and has on several occasions embarked on making it, but pulled back each time.  I suppose the thunder of he novel had receded a bit, and Coppola was looking for the right time to make it.  Later he created his "buddy movie" in Rumblefish (1983), and I guess decided not to revisit that territory.  I could almost see Matt Dillon, Mickey Rourke and Diane Lane in the leads at the time.  Hopper could have played Burroughs.

I don't know who we will get in the Coppola-Salles version, if they choose to go through with it.  Thank god Joel Schumacher didn't get a chance to make it with Billy Crudup and Brad Pitt in 2001, although Schumacher apparently wanted Colin Ferrell to play Sal. This being the guy who gave us Batman and Robin, along with Flatliners and Falling Down.  Salles apparently wants to shoot the entire film with a hand-held camera with unknown actors, but I doubt anyone will bankroll such a project.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 09, 2007, 12:48:03 PM
Maddie,

I couldn't help but wonder if you are included in Women of the Beat Generation:

http://www.amazon.com/Women-Beat-Generation-Writers-Revolution/dp/1573241385/ref=ed_oe_p/103-5711346-4722226?ie=UTF8&qid=1186677996&sr=1-4


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 09, 2007, 05:23:30 PM
Reader,I was up reading some newspapers online when the monitor started moving then the desk then the bldg. started shaking.I thought it only a mid 3.something and find out it was a 4.5 but it was close to L.A. proper.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 09, 2007, 07:32:11 PM
Dzimas, re:#926

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/11720   Letter     Leroi Jones  by C.O.P. Committee on Poetry

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/13528


["...some of this confusion has been caused by the fact that there are actually three generations of Beat women writers. The first generation (chronologically) are those born around the time of William Burroughs, and who thus anticipate the Beat writing sof the 1940s and 1950s or who were writing contemporaneously to the first work of the three men most definitely tied into the Beats--Burroughs, Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg. Women of the first generation thus include Jane Bowles and Helen Adam. A second generation grew up, the same age as the younger Beats (such as Ginsberg, Lew Welch, McClure, Corso). These women include Lenore Kandel (b. 1932), the late Elise Cowen (1933-1962) and Joanne Kyger (b. 1934). Finally there are two women Beat writers of a following generation--the age of Bon Dylan. These are Anne Waldman and Janine Pommy Vega. This last generation seems oddly underpopulated, as though Waldman and Pommy Vega were playing some kind of version of "I Am Legend." ]

With that in mind, I can recommend something I read  in just the last few years, on the recommendation of a review that was in the nytimes.com.  I looked for it today,over there and it is not racheting up; what do they do with old reviews, dump them in the Atlantic Ocean in planes tipping off the runway at what was the old Idlewild now JFK ?  I found it hysterically amusing because it says it all, although you'd never pick that up from the seriousness of the tone at Amazon or from the picaresque of the two links above at nyrb; and it is quite a good description of what life was actually like in "Greenwich Village" so called, although everyone has a different story from a particular slice of life at a variety of locations.

http://www.amazon.com/Recollections-My-Life-Woman-Years/dp/0670851663/ref=dp_return_1/002-5779211-1532832?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books&qid=1186695496&sr=1-1

I caught myself laughing all the way through this book and then told my son that if he ever wanted to know what was going on just prior to his birth, here it is.  It does continue that way in the immediately following years  of the 1960s.

But I attempted to cover some of that in an old book forums discussion at the nytimes,sometime just shortly after Gregory Corso's death (he was one of the few who was native to the city),which had to do with Philip Roth's novel, The Human Stain, a riff to fictionalize the biography of Roth's friend,Anatole Broyard who was important to many of us.  He was, as well disguised as the fact is now, the only literary reader and critic with any smarts that The New York Times had in those years.  He never wrote a book. Instead he simply wrote thousands upon thousands of these short pieces, as the books came in from the publishers to The New York Times, telling you how they compared, stacked up to great literary achievements of the past. I hope they did not dump his reviews off the runway at JFK.

Of course, he did come out with a book(just not a  novel) titled, Kafka was the Rage, a memoir of Greenwich Village. It was about what it was like to come home from the Navy after WW2 and make a life for yourself in the Village. Broyard was a New Orleanian who was raised in the Bed-Stuyvesant whose family could not comprehend a young man going to live out of the parental house to find out who he was. None of our families could understand that kind of thing in the decade following the war. He ran a bookstore on Cornelia Street and took the subway up to Midtown to put in his "essays" at The New York Times. I suspect they paid him by the word.

Oh, I know what you'd like, it strikes me now, the official biography of my room-mate east of 2nd Avenue, one block from Ginsberg's. And within walking distance to St.Marks Place where the ladies read their poems in the years after I left for the Midwest. If you think these guys were mental cases as public Road-runners, my female room-mate, who was recommended through Art Farmer to Dave Bailey, which is half of the Gerry Mulligan quartette, was the perfect exemplification of the female of the day. They don't get much crazier. 
(to be cont.'d)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 09, 2007, 07:57:57 PM
Dzimas,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Grizzuti_Harrison

Of course,she did regular reviews at the Book Reviews in The New York Times but I was amazed when reading these before I ever went on line at nytimes.com; because she seldom said anything good about another writer.

The publishing house editor mentioned in the linked article was of course Emile Capouya, poetry editor at Macmillan who died just recently in the last few years. She was working there at the time we shared an apartment on 9th.street.

The reference to her religious conversion to Roman Catholicism had very much more to do with after her having been to Rome. It was through writing the travel articles and being able to afford discovering the locale where her family originated in the Abruzzi region, that the impression of Italian Catholicism really rubbed off on her.

She was not writing at the time that we lived in the same apartment because she was a reader and came home each day with a new load of manuscripts that had to be read before she returned to the Macmillan office the next day.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 09, 2007, 08:05:59 PM
Dzimas,

I think you can pick up, through reading the second-link from nyrb, given the snobby tone taken by the official literary establishment, why I might opt for sitting out that locale geographically. As a lot of us have known it is possible to write in the Midwest, you may go through acute withdrawal symptoms of not being able to hear the approach of a subway underground through an open window on a summer night but that too is a process you have to pass through. Kenneth Rexroth had  come from the Midwest, born in Indiana, but growing up like topsy in Chicago before heading out to the West, on foot, in the Twenties, and down the Coast.
 
When he decided to come back to the Midwest, from San Francisco, I had, of course, no idea of his real reasons for doing so. He just figured out a way to get the trip paid for,academically speaking. We walked and traveled about and I didn't discover why until it was all over, because he decided to dictate to me, sans typewriter or any recording device, just to hear what it sounded like, the walking text of--An Autobiographical Novel. It wasn't until I opened the book for the first time, years later, that I realized what he had done. He literally recited the entire book, as his memories came to him, watched for my reactions, then when he went home to S.F., he again dictated it into tapes for transcription, quite usually his daughters got stuck with this assignment in the same way that I typed my father's reference materials for when he was professor of anatomy or teaching surgical technique to interns who became residents in Surgery.
 
In regard to the book that you mentioned in post, the only one of these with whom I really could see eye to eye and who was  a big help to me from the feminist  point of view in revealing poetry from the self( and I am not referring to the Seventies literary movement because I really believe there would not have been an interest at that time in the literature written by women, if it had not been for the earlier crazy ladies like Diane DiPrima laying the ground work of reading in public and printing folios at home in the kitchen), had been a very calm, collected Denise Levertov who had the same relationship to William Carlos Williams as I had to Kenneth Rexroth; although there was definitely a bigger age difference, perhaps just short of fifty years in their situation. It was very definitely the education of one generation to another for both of us; the kind of thing you would expect Gary Snyder to be able to explain without explaining but, I find that it gets left up to me, as Asian as that tradition is.  Denise Levertov, after her earlier poetry such as Jacob's Ladder, did eventually do a translation of the Bhagavad Gita with Allen Ginsburg who was a student of Neem Keroli Baba who sent him away from Hanuman temple,Varanasi.
 
The book from your post is very much like material I posted, that had been available on line, about that whole development  from Jane Bowles, Josephine Miles, on through. Not under very fortuitous circumstances when I discovered the people were not discussing poems as fully as the standards deserved in an anthology reading 2006, they were unaware of the continuum of the schools of interaction, you might say,poets virtually unknown to them.  When you don't know who Marianne Moore is or Edith Sitwell, there's a generation missing somewhere. How do these people, who wrote, fit into their time.
 
To compensate for that from the very first in the mid-1960s, I began the development of coffee-house readings by gathering together poets, where readings had never been done before, at the invitation of a friend who just happened to have the appropriate bright shiny coffee house that was moody and Venetian by night.
 
It worked. And I had my own editor, in an underground press of his pleasure to assemble, at a time when ( as I mentioned about that second link), the establishment media was not very interested in our opinions about the War in Vietnam, or what were the more important values rather than war.  Sometimes these things work better in an environment that is familiar and with no dues attached.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 09, 2007, 08:32:28 PM
Reader,you must have had a good shake then.I'm near Fox Studios and Century City on the westside and it felt pretty good to me.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 10, 2007, 02:11:51 AM
Bo, does that mean you can walk over to Pink's for a dog?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 10, 2007, 02:28:49 AM
Pink's is several miles back towards L.A./Hollywood.I was there last year for the first time in years.Avoice is a Pink's fan.I get my dogs from Rochester,N.Y. on my yearly fall trip there or have them shipped out.A company called zweigles out of Roch.They pop open on the grill and get good and charred.Red and White hot dogs.The freezer is now empty of them but Oct. is coming.Avoice it turns out is a Buffalo native and we live several miles apart now in la-la land.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 10, 2007, 11:01:52 AM
MADUPONT Our Lady of the Perpetual Knowledge:

those are great stories! You should write your memories.I always knew you were a Wise Woman.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 10, 2007, 11:29:35 AM
HARKEN!!!HARKEN!!!
O.Proffet says we shood eet Hot Dogs charred,according to his other apossell Bosox.

In B.A. we eat *chorizos* with french bread.These are eaten along the street,close to parks or by the Costanera Avenue by the Rio de la Plata.
These are illegal stands.Usually an oil tank opened at the center lengthwise with charcoal burning, a grill and that´s that.The *choricero-men* usually keep the *chorizos* fresh by dumping them hanging from a string in the river or in another tank. Rats are constant visitors but fire cleans it all,except for whatever was put into the *chorizos*.They are delicious like everything dangerous.At least I´ve never died yet.

Long live the K/SF!!!!!!!!!

BTW:
three mirakels of the first order have happened thanks to my prayers at the Blooming Lampost. I begged for my country to come out of poverty and suddenly there have been bags of dollars apppearing in the whereabouts of Ministros and other members of this Kirchner´s administration.

MIRAKEL I :The Lady Minister Felicia Micelli had a bag with U$A 60.000 appearing in her personal bathroom in her personal office.No one could tell why?

MIRAKEL II: one other member of This Admisnitration forgot a paper bag with U$A 300.000 in a taxi in Cordoba city.Claimed it wasn´t his.How honest!

MIRAKEL MOST AWSOME II: U$A 800.000 appeared at the B.A. customs in the samsonite of Mr.guido Antonini Wilson member of the entourage of His Emminence President CHAVEZ.

As you see Argentina is being daily blessed by the K/SF and so it is.

You peepel over in the US shoold start praying to the BL for some mirakels as you surely need them .

Ask and it shall be given.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 10, 2007, 02:59:43 PM
Mother of God, Martin.  Your stomach must have Olympic grade antibodious germs that protect you from Chorizos dangled in the Rio de la Plata (to keep them fresh??), Bless the Bloomin Lamp Post for all charity to thee and thy extended family.

Our politicians get the same largess but seldom forget where they stash it (like in the freezer) or leave it in taxi cabs.  They usually hire bagmen to take care of the tacky details.  Of course they give them a fancier title than bagman--how too mafioso.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 10, 2007, 04:36:18 PM
Reader, surely you meant "e-mail" not mail (like in U.S. Postal Service)?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 10, 2007, 10:51:00 PM
Reader, surely you meant "e-mail" not mail (like in U.S. Postal Service)?


Notice the color? I had to take it back, it turns out you weren't right and I wasn't wrong, after all.  Ain't that a hoot.  He simply multiplied. Self insemination, no doubt.

Please explain oroya fever to St. Martin Becket the Third.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 10, 2007, 10:58:46 PM
Pink's is several miles back towards L.A./Hollywood.I was there last year for the first time in years.Avoice is a Pink's fan.I get my dogs from Rochester,N.Y. on my yearly fall trip there or have them shipped out.A company called zweigles out of Roch.They pop open on the grill and get good and charred.Red and White hot dogs.The freezer is now empty of them but Oct. is coming.Avoice it turns out is a Buffalo native and we live several miles apart now in la-la land.


Remind me to put you on the mailing list for Usingers. Currently, I'm getting my hot-dogs  from Stuttgart, Germany but they will probably raise the price quickly if Una Merkel has anything to say about it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 10, 2007, 11:04:19 PM
MADUPONT Our Lady of the Perpetual Knowledge:

those are great stories! You should write your memories.I always knew you were a Wise Woman.


What did I say now?

Oh,well, re:##936  Be sure to check out those bills very closely in the packets and be sure that those aren't pictures of George W. Bush decorating the money.  His father used to leave those bundles around your country, never dreaming he would be surpassed by junior, and I figure this way--
he may have been inaugurated but he ain't canonized, not yet anyway.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 11, 2007, 01:56:38 AM
I've had Uzingers before.They are good but I wouldn't go out of my way to get them.As for German Hot Dogs Rochester had several German Sausage shops when I grew up and my father bought all of the types.Not a big fan on some of them but the Weisswurst w/the parsely in them were sublime.Very delicate .We steamed them and just a nice piece of rye and some grainy mustard on them .


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 11, 2007, 03:18:12 AM
I've had Uzingers before.They are good but I wouldn't go out of my way to get them.As for German Hot Dogs Rochester had several German Sausage shops when I grew up and my father bought all of the types.Not a big fan on some of them but the Weisswurst w/the parsely in them were sublime.Very delicate .We steamed them and just a nice piece of rye and some grainy mustard on them .


My fave too, always like them for Easter breakfast with scrambled eggs and bran muffins with plenty of molasses in the recipe.  Sometimes give them away for Christmas presents to my Amish and Mennonite neighbours who don't get the real thing here.  My grandmother used to cook them, first plumped up in a few inches of water in the covered shallow pan as my mother showed me. Then they are drained and slowly fried in butter, being sure to prick them with a fork. The worst problem is how to brown them on all sides without their falling over, you  have to wrestle with them a bit.

Grandmother may have been more inclined to substitute a little dark beer for the water to steam them; and, then following the browning, she might stir some sour cream into the pan and actually serve these over mashed potatoes, with red cabbage on the side, fine cut, sweet-sour and piquant.  I would want to find honest to god rye rolls, which are absent in many parts of the country where the concept is not really understood. Panera makes a great rye with caraway by the way.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 11, 2007, 03:43:01 AM
I did take a few weisswurst over the years and fry them in butter after steamed but my dad always shook his head.A few times they did not do well.I read somewhere once where they were better for breakfast cause they were so delicate but the sausage shop my dad went to on sat mornings made them right before.These had the flecks of parsley you could see right through the casing.Another thing I loved as a kid was the blood sausage my mothers Belgian parents who lived next to us would eat all the time.My brothers would not touch the stuff but I loved it.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 11, 2007, 11:14:12 AM
One of the many pleasures of my recent trip to Scotland was sampling this fine beer:

http://www.innisandgunn.com/theglass.htm

Sadly, it wasn't widely available.  I had it in a restuarant called Maxine's, just off the Royal Mile, and couldn't find it anywhere else along High Street, or anywhere else on my travels.  I was also able to complete my sampling of existing Islay malts.  There are a few "lost" distilleries that still have bottles floating around.  I don't know what it is about this island, but they sure know how to make a single malt.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: geezergranddad on August 11, 2007, 05:56:04 PM


Hello old friends. Kudos to person responsible for this site. A special hello to Teddy. Chartres needs to join us.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 11, 2007, 06:01:00 PM
Don't know who you are, but anyone who uses the term "geezer" in their handle has got to be a good guy. Welcome aboard.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 12, 2007, 02:23:18 AM
Geezergranddad, praise the gods you've found your way home.  We hit 100° today in Dallas for the first time this year, and Labor Day is just around the corner!  You okay, heatwise, down there in Round Rock?  Of course, we've had it easy up till now.  Just now getting dried out from all that rain.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on August 12, 2007, 09:54:30 AM
martinbeck3: you try to impress the ladies by pretending you're eating chorizos from the illegal stands at the Costanera, and that you willingly ask the chorizo man to take a "fresh" chorizo kept in pristine conditions by the holly waters of the River Plate. and after the aforementioned chorizo is grilled to perfection you procede to eat it.

TAHT'S NOT TRUE, MARTIN!!! (yes, I'm yelling from atop my computer chaire, like in the good old days) NOBODY can perform such feat AND survive.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on August 12, 2007, 09:58:22 AM
martinbeck3: Yes, Martin, I did "say" ""chaire", since I started to read La Chanson de Roland my perfect inglish tend to get contaminated by ancient French, ""c'ést  la vie", Martin ( and did you too?...wink, wink, nudge, nudge)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 12, 2007, 06:04:43 PM
BOQUITA, you´ve become estranged from your roots! Don´t tell me that you´d be afraid to have a *choripan* in the Costanera!  The old "carritos" are coming back in the shape of old oil tanks some with a colorful beach umbrellas.This is after-2001 new business.It´s called free entreprise.The Conde Nast Traveler mag recommends them.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 12, 2007, 06:13:07 PM
GEEZERGRANDAD,WELCOME!!! I´m so glad good winds brought you here.

I googled the *geezer*part of your name :

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geezer

that´s ultra Kult Kool.

All this time i though it meant a geyser!   


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 12, 2007, 06:17:59 PM
DON AND MADDIE, don´t worry about me I´started having *chorizos* in the Costanera when I was a kid.My parents took me and my brother almost every Sunday evening as my mother refused to cook then (not a religious rule,but the maid had her day off).Doña Elenita!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 12, 2007, 06:22:26 PM
MADUPONT, I said that I always knew you were a Wise Woman and you prooved so in that post on all the people you used to know in Greenwich Village back in the real good Greenwich village days.It was something like a Bloomsbury group,and anybody who lived there and then should write her/his memories. It´s lit. history.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 12, 2007, 08:17:24 PM


Hello old friends. Kudos to person responsible for this site. A special hello to Teddy. Chartres needs to join us.

Greetings dear Geezer!  How excellent to see you!  Chartres is Furphy in these parts.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 13, 2007, 02:33:00 AM
Teddy,

He's going to wonder what "these parts" are.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on August 13, 2007, 08:49:34 AM
martinbeck3:

..but Martin, is you who mentioned the chorizos (saussages) being kept "fresh" before grilling them by hanging them into the river's waters. I'm I not right to be afraid, very afraid of choripanes in such dangerously moist sircumstanceses?.....


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 13, 2007, 01:17:35 PM
BOCA,i also said that fire cleans it all.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 13, 2007, 01:24:21 PM
http://www.who-sucks.com/food/101-frightening-ice-cream-flavors-from-around-the-world


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nytempsperdu on August 13, 2007, 10:53:46 PM
Yum, nnyhav, thanks for eliminating any post prandial ice cream urges!  I didn't see if garlic ice cream was on the list, tho' its existence came to my ken because of the annual Gilroy Garlic Festival just South (out of smelling distance) of here.  When she saw that durian made the list, my resourceful daughter pulled off her bookshelf Mark Frauenfelder's  The World's Worst, A Guide to the Most Disgusting, Hideous, Inept, and Dangerous People, Places and Things on Earth and read me this entry:

"Most Disgusting Fruit: Durian is the kind of crop the monster from Alien would grow in her backyard.  Weighing as much as 10 pounds, this Southeast Asian fruit has a hard greenish shell studded with hard spikes, like some kind of living medieval weapon.  Growing at the top of 40-foot-tall trees, durian fruits have been known to drop from their branches and kill people below. 

It takes a mighty whack of a machete to persuade a durian to yield its cache of grayish yellow sluglike pods.  With an odor somewhere between sweetened garlic and pig manure, the fruit's stench is so overpowering that it can be smelled through a car's closed trunk. 

Despite the fact that--or more likely, because--durian is so foul, it's considered a delicacy by millions of people.  People love it or hate it, there is no in-between.  Those who adore it as the "King of Fruit" in its native Indonesia, Malaysia and especially Thailand (which dominates the export market) are willing to fork over what amounts to a month's salary for a prime specimen.  In Singapore alone, $30 million worth of the fetid fruit slithers down gullets of fearless gourmands each year.  The government of several Asian countries forbid people from bringing durian onto any type of publid transportation.  Most hotels have a ban on the fruit, and rental car agencies issue fines for cars that are returned smelling of it.

Many visitors to these countries are tempted to try durian.  Here are some reports published on the internet: 

"I nearly vomited from the smell alone.  I would describe it as a cross between dirty diapers and propane."

"It's like eating ice cream in a sewer." 

"It really does smell like decaying flesh combined with rotting eggs."

"It was similar to eating a cheesecake covered with a layer of feces."

"That is the single most disgusting thing I've ever experienced in my life; get it out of my face."

The civet cat, common in Southeast Asia (and which plays a starring role in Most Disgusting Beverage, is a fan of durian, and some attribute the cat's tastiness to its feeding on this fruit."


Any possibility of succumbing to ice cream temptations before I forget about this?  None!



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 13, 2007, 11:40:03 PM
Teddy,

He's going to wonder what "these parts" are.

Ha!  (I presumed Geezer would realize I meant - these new Meandering parts as opposed to other discussion group parts ...)



Title: Re: Pass me the mustard, Martin
Post by: Furphy on August 13, 2007, 11:53:44 PM
I love a good linguisa sausage on a toasty bun. Whenever the day is dull and life seems cheerless, I head over to What's Up Dog? for a fix. There isn't much in my world that can go wrong that a good hot dog won't fix.


Title: Re: Sweeny Todd redux
Post by: Furphy on August 13, 2007, 11:57:52 PM
Tempsperdu may remember that several years ago the man who owned Silva Linguica became angry at the health inspectors who visited his factory and killed two or three of them.

The Silva guy died in prison. His sausage is still sold. But he certainly cut off his own nose to spite his face.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 14, 2007, 12:27:27 AM
There is a place outside Rochester called Wahls(not to be confused w/ a  small grroup of hamburger places by another Wahl) that serves a differnt odd flavor each April Fools day.Some of the recent ones I recall were Sauerkraut,Coleslaw and Guinness.I know there are regional flavors in the U.S. also.New England has a Grape Nuts Icecream and there is one in Hawaii I can't recall name of.Speaking of the Eggplant flavor in Dave's Link I saw on the news this morn where a lady cut open an eggplant and the seeds in the slice spelled"GOD".


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 14, 2007, 12:32:17 AM
One of the things I miss most about my years in/near Provincetown was being able to walk into any of the small traditional places on Commercial Street and get Linguica and Eggs for breakfast.If you got homefries w/it the grease from the sausage leaked into the home fries on your plate making it extra tasty.Most of the places are gone though pushed out by the Gay Disneyland Provincetown is whoring its soul to.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on August 14, 2007, 01:36:33 AM
http://www.who-sucks.com/food/101-frightening-ice-cream-flavors-from-around-the-world
Squirrel ice cream!  Yum!


Title: Re: Sweeny Todd redux
Post by: whiskeypriest on August 14, 2007, 01:37:50 AM
The Silva guy died in prison. His sausage is still sold. But he certainly cut off his own nose to spite his face.
Provided it did not wind up in the dogs....


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 14, 2007, 01:47:08 AM
Aha, Whiskey, you have found your way through the first days of a new job and back to your old haunt! Good to see you back!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 14, 2007, 01:51:23 AM
I'd forgotten about the Squirrel Ice Cream.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on August 14, 2007, 09:25:18 AM
Nytemps, I enjoyed your Portrait of Durian Gray.

Sounds sort of like the people who eat globefish, in Japan, called "fugu" and loaded with deadly neurotoxin unless it's prepared just right.  Eating as macho sport.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 14, 2007, 01:17:51 PM
This looks and is great but...

http://www.lacabanabuenosaires.com.ar/web/rcab/rcab_offers_bbq.jsp

...beware!!!! among this delicious meat and chorizos there might be some much beloved "morcilla" a sausage made of blood (of the cow...),"molleja" some glands that go in the throat...of the cow...,"chinchulines" or cow´s-we hope-clean intestines and some other treats.

And I eat all of that and I am very grateful and I find it delicious and when the FP told my Canadian friend Steven what he was eating he nearly fainted.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on August 14, 2007, 01:40:15 PM
Here's an appropriate quiz for the minions - take it to determine which book you are:

http://bluepyramid.org/ia/bquiz.htm

I am Ulysses.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 14, 2007, 02:45:12 PM
speaking of Michelangelo ...

(No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be ...)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 14, 2007, 02:59:40 PM
Nytemps, I enjoyed your Portrait of Durian Gray.

Sounds sort of like the people who eat globefish, in Japan, called "fugu" and loaded with deadly neurotoxin unless it's prepared just right.  Eating as macho sport.



Fugu could be on your plate and you'd never know it until they try to save your life at the  hospital. 

I read a blog yesterday that reported this in imports from China of Blowfish(which is the above referred to as globefish/fugu) incorrectly labeled as monkfish. At your supermarket.  I've made it a point not to eat monkfish, right from the start.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 14, 2007, 03:34:03 PM
martinbeck3,

The molleja is something my mother taught me to like considerably although a molleja by any other name  is  euphemistally known as sweet-breads in the US.

Not only that, but she was always intensely happy to receive boudin noir, since my grandfather made his own sausages each season until he was too old to do so but one of the grandchildren/nephews has taken over that art and my mother would always save me some in the freezer, when the winter package arrived. I have no idea if it is from cow, a good possibility,or from another of his sausageable creatures my grandfather had available. As bosox reminded me, I like veal sausage best but he prefers the hot dogs who originally got their name from wiener-brat.

Mother served what you call molleja for brunch(also as FP does for special guests), her recipe goes something like this, you carefully clean in three changes of vinegar-cold-water rinse, eliminating tough membrane skin or fat, pat dry with paper towel and keep chilled while attending to other ingredients. She would find some thin, fine ham, and some small chicken breast, because by the time that you add the "molleja", you have quite a large serving of meat. All of this is sauteed after you slightly flour the sweet-breads. I have not made this for years, so do not ask me the timing on this part of the preparation. Also:

you will saute clean mushroom caps for a sauce made from the drippings of all the meat and mushroom preparation in the saute pans in which you stir in a small amount of flour as when making a roux to thicken the sauce. To this you add broth or stock, usually chicken, if too dark,add sherry and cream. Best to deglaze the pan with the sherry in the first place.

All of this was served on toast upon which you layered the ham, the white meat of the chicken breast,and the sweet-breads with mushroom covered in the sauce.  These are traditional dishes served left over from another more elegant era, in the days when you found fresh parsley cut to sprinkle on top (today people think it is normal for a leaf of Kale to be served on the plate with their entree).

The morcilla is a different matter, from the countryside, has a fabulous texture and taste, and the only supplier in the US that I know of is in San Francisco, I believe it was called Henri brand-name, last seen about ten years ago. Although the back-country Cajuns of Louisiana/Texas border regularly make and serve this blood sausage, for holidays in particular like the Feast of Fools and Mardi Gras. At home on a farm, it may more likely be a late night meal for someone special with chunks of home-made bread, fried potatoes with onions, and some preserved fruit.

Now, you've made me hungry.
Oh, Ps -- you know the incorrect rumor was started that molleja was the result, or the part of the bull, following the corrida, as somehow better than being dedicated the ears. Therefore in this country, they often refer to it as "mountain oysters".


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 14, 2007, 03:40:54 PM
des,re:#997

This is Ironic.   I'm  William Faulkner's, The Sound and the Fury, and I hope some people around here just appreciate the perfect irony as they engage in Absalom,oh,Absalom.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on August 14, 2007, 03:52:32 PM
des,re:#997

This is Ironic.   I'm  William Faulkner's, The Sound and the Fury, and I hope some people around here just appreciate the perfect irony as they engage in Absalom,oh,Absalom.

Maddie -

My goodness, what would Quentin #1 say about that? 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on August 14, 2007, 03:55:01 PM
I retook the test, changing the answer to the first question - after all, in conversation I am long-winded, but my writing is concise.  I ended up being Siddhartha - Groovy.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 14, 2007, 04:28:57 PM
I have no idea.  Do you like to read Hermann Hesse?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 14, 2007, 06:27:43 PM
Don't quite know what to make of this, and embarrassing as all get out to admit, but I'm Lolita.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: harrie on August 14, 2007, 06:51:45 PM
Anyone want to trade for The Mists of Avalon?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 14, 2007, 07:45:52 PM
OK, I did it. I'm "Loosely Based". Says most have never heard of me. I have never heard of me!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 14, 2007, 09:01:25 PM
Reader....I did know about Vivian Darkbloom, but I don't remember where I came across it.  Was it in Lolita?  I think Speak, Memory ended before that name came up.  And now, I'm going to have to search my Nabokov collection and see if I can remember where it was.  What a nice way to spend the rest of the evening.

How did you find it?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nytempsperdu on August 14, 2007, 09:15:34 PM
nnyhav: I'm Eliot, too, TSk, TSk.

Re strange foods, my mate sometimes watches Food Network, says some very odd ice creams are made on Iron Chef, and there is a new show on it or travel channel featuring somebody Zimmern (?) eating most peculiar things all over the world.  Would like to have been in on meeting where that was pitched.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 14, 2007, 10:19:47 PM
...the grease from the sausage leaked into the home fries on your plate making it extra tasty.Most of the places are gone though pushed out by the Gay Disneyland Provincetown is whoring its soul to.


(http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/824-he-likes-it.jpg)


Yeah, baby. Rummy in your nice photo seems to like da sausage, da grease and whoring his soul too.

Think he likes da squirrel ice cream? Hm-hmmm good...


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 14, 2007, 10:24:16 PM
http://www.who-sucks.com/food/101-frightening-ice-cream-flavors-from-around-the-world
Squirrel ice cream!  Yum!

Welcome back, oh Great One.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 14, 2007, 11:06:31 PM
WEEZO

http://www.amazon.com/Loosely-Based-Novel-Storey-Clayton/dp/1589394097/ref=sr_1_1/002-9958069-1421637?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187147013&sr=1-1


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 14, 2007, 11:10:16 PM
desdemona,

Did I ask you about your back before? Sorry, if I surprised you, I was think of furphy with the Scientologists.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 14, 2007, 11:22:26 PM
Anyone want to trade for The Mists of Avalon?


I'll give you a clue. You just have to adjust your way of thinking. With just six questions, all you have to do is change one of your answers and you turn into a different book. If one goes in for that sort of thing. I changed one major attitude to something that used to be true of me but recently has not because of a flipping prejudice garnered this Spring
--and just like that I changed into you! Or, rather the Mists of Avalon. Tell you what, you take Faulkner , and in a snap, you will be back beggin' for Avalon, honey.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 14, 2007, 11:33:38 PM
This is great fun, all you have to do is adjust your answers and you will find out tons of stuff about yourself, like you could be anybody.Perhaps.
Until you get back to where you were before. Then you have to quit. This is better than the traveling thanka of the  Malachakra, Great Wheel of Re-incarnation. Try it sometime but don't get stuck.


Title: Re: Sweeny Todd redux
Post by: teddy174c on August 14, 2007, 11:50:28 PM

The Silva guy died in prison. His sausage is still sold. But he certainly cut off his own nose to spite his face.

To repeat what Whiskey said -- provided it did not end up in the dogs..


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 15, 2007, 12:20:58 AM
Finished Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows a few days ago.  Glad I didn't read the Christopher Hitchens review (at the end of which he said that although a glimmer of hope might be discerned at the end for further books, he would hope young readers would move on to Pullman, "a far better writer" or words to that effect, instead, etc.) and Christian Science Monitor review (that complains that Harry doesn't grow - and that Snape should have been the protagonist [likely because they require a Christian awakening and Harry was already basically good without such obvious benefit])- until afterward.  Am trying to find a post someone wrote about a month or so ago on HP and am having difficulty.

Spoiler Alert for All Who Haven't Yet Read the Final Installment

My complaints, after feeling initially fully sated, came slowly, in a more childish than critical vein -- ie, I would have liked one last glimpse of the Dursleys, though that would have admittedly broken the pattern (they begin, but don't end, the books).

Did she have to kill D***y to show Harry the way of true goodness?

Got a bit confused about all the paraphernalia (sword, snitch, wand, etc).

Something a little disturbing about Harry's needing to be "willing to die" at the end --though his pure courage admirable.

The happy ending, initially so satisfying, after a bit made me wonder -- the suburban nuclear family happiness, nothing wrong with that, but -- what the heck did Harry, Hermione end up doing for a living, or did I miss that?  Or did they not need to, having magical powers?  If Hogwarts is now forever safe for their children, what adventures will they have?  How will they grow?

After these complaints, this:

Rowlings is a great story teller.  Scene with Kreacher hilarious (after the one that made you lunge for the kleenex).

Despite Hitchens complaints, I enjoyed (while also thinking rather long) the early escape-trek taken together by the main three and their tent, the visit to Harry's birthplace, and wonderful description of (the none too healthy) Bathilda Bagshot etc.

Harry is I think a hero more in the movie hero, occasionally anti-hero, style -- and some other characters might have been interesting to probe (ie Snape, Neville, Malroy, Dudley, ) -- but they would have yielded very different books.

Hermione - I sometimes thought Rowling slipped her the best ideas under the table so to speak (not apparently being able to do so overtly for fear of turning off the boys), but here Hermione does a fair bit of nurturing (not that there's anything wrong with that), cooking (though she does complain about that to Ron), and sqealing -- still comes up with some great ideas as the brainiest of the three.

Harry is a modern day good leader -- allowing others to reap plenty of the glory, when they need it the most.

Rowling can write:  when Harry hits rock bottom just before the end, looking at Dumbledore and Snape in the pensieve, hearing Dumbledore's words re Harry's fate -- this is a piece of writing that would make me agree that shouldn't be read by those younger than -- say -- thirteen, as too harrowing.  I woke up insomniac and weighted down and had to read through that section before I could go back to sleep.

Did anyone else read this?

Anyway, onward after a couple New Yorkers (best magazine in the world) to "Where Bigfoot Walks".










Title: Re: Pass me the mustard, Martin
Post by: pugetopolis on August 15, 2007, 06:05:08 AM
There isn't much in my world that can go wrong that a good hot dog won't fix.


I couldn't agree more, my dear.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 15, 2007, 09:04:07 AM
Thanks, Maddie, for the link to the book that is supposed to be me. I'm not sure I see myself in it, except that it is a combobulation of the syncophants of various voices. The price isn't low enough for me to order it at this time. Perhaps at a later time. But, I'm not sure I'm really into the angst of young adulthood to the extent that it is plot of the books. Perhaps at another time.


Title: Re: Pass me the mustard, Martin
Post by: Lhoffman on August 15, 2007, 11:25:31 AM
There isn't much in my world that can go wrong that a good hot dog won't fix.


I couldn't agree more, my dear.

 :D :D :D


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 15, 2007, 11:29:30 AM
The book test said I was Huck Finn!!!! My father drank but not that much.Tom Sawyer and Sandokan where the two books I liked best.Well, at least I didn´t come out as Heidi.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 15, 2007, 11:34:08 AM
TEDDY,awesome.Harry Potter latest book ENGLISH EDITION is third in the best-selling list of La Nacion(like the NYT).


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 15, 2007, 11:43:39 AM
The NYT has completely shut down the Books section of the of the old Forums.  Only the archives from past monthly book discussions remain available.  Let's hope that you-know-who doesn't try to come over here.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 15, 2007, 01:10:49 PM
The book test said I was Huck Finn!!!! My father drank but not that much.Tom Sawyer and Sandokan where the two books I liked best.Well, at least I didn´t come out as Heidi.

Huck Finn....from what I've read of your posts, that does feel like you.  Pretty sweet!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: desdemona222b on August 15, 2007, 02:04:41 PM
The NYT has completely shut down the Books section of the of the old Forums.  Only the archives from past monthly book discussions remain available.  Let's hope that you-know-who doesn't try to come over here.

It's about time - I'd go over there occasionally and just wince.  Perhaps because they haven't archived the most recent voting group, he'll never find the link to this site. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 15, 2007, 02:07:57 PM
All Lifeline all the time.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: obertray on August 15, 2007, 03:47:21 PM
The NYT has completely shut down the Books section of the of the old Forums.  Only the archives from past monthly book discussions remain available.  Let's hope that you-know-who doesn't try to come over here.

Uhhhmmm... I hope I'm not that person... I don't think I am... But I've been accused of being oher persons at other times and I seem to have the timing down such that I show up at the wrong time....

Anyway, Greetings Books folks,

I saw this over at the NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/science/14tier.html?em&ex=1187323200&en=2590af4760a81047&ei=5087%0A  and was sort of discussing it in Religion  and wom\ndered if there were folks of the Sci Fi demographic who might have comments on it.

I made the comment that it resembles the Asimov short story (as if he wrote only one) and wondered if anyone had the proper quote from the story (the post is in Religion and Politics).

Thank you for your attention.

Please note, I think these forums are quite luxurious.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 15, 2007, 04:16:50 PM
BOCA, go ahead and take the book test.I bet you come out as Das Kapital.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 15, 2007, 04:18:26 PM
Ms.Hoffman,I presume.Yes, ladies tell me I´m sort of sweet.That´s the trick. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 15, 2007, 04:35:44 PM
OBERTRAY,welcome Groucho!

THE REST OF YOU brethrens  and sistererns :

please don´t call on the devil! Don´t even menshun the L word! I bet the Beest is 1 heck of a hacker.

Now I´ll have to do some Kult S/F hidden rites to keep the Him that Lines away.

I am now ascending the spireetooal ladder from Humbell Apossell to Shaman of the Andes.Does that make me a spiritual climber?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 15, 2007, 06:46:47 PM
Methinks, it was the intent of the Times to turn the forums into a paying proposition, and too many just said nix to the subscription and blog ideas.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 15, 2007, 06:58:30 PM
The big "surprise" this week was learning that the Times is discontinuing their Select Services....no more paying to view articles and editorials. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on August 15, 2007, 07:34:27 PM
Obert:

I'm a sci-fi buff.  If you find Bostrom's ideas interesting, you might enjoy writers like Robert Charles Wilson, several of whose novels (Darwinia, The Harvest) deal with this theme of virtual recreations of ancestors and related matters.  I mention Wilson, who is notable for actually being a pretty good writer (hint of genre cynicism correctly detected).  There's also a physicist at Tulane, named Frank Tipler, who has written a speculative nonfiction book or two on the same subject -- Tipler really goes over the top with it, postulating an Omega Point computer which, at the end of time, resurrects everyone who has ever lived. 

I'm still trying to figure out how to freeze the program, like that fellow did in "Vanilla Sky" for Tom Cruise -- think of the mischief one could do!

 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: kitinkaboodle on August 15, 2007, 07:43:49 PM
The book test said I was Huck Finn!!!! My father drank but not that much.Tom Sawyer and Sandokan where the two books I liked best.Well, at least I didn´t come out as Heidi.

Book Test Result:

Lolita?  Nah...'tis flawed surely!


Title: Re: What book am I?
Post by: Furphy on August 15, 2007, 09:19:26 PM
I'm Barbara Tuchman's "Guns of August". I think I may be the only non-fiction work on this shelf.


Title: Re: What book am I?
Post by: teddy174c on August 15, 2007, 10:20:39 PM
I think I may be the only non-fiction work on this shelf.

Furphy -- well -- you've certainly always seemed very real to me!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: obertray on August 15, 2007, 11:26:17 PM
Thank you Barton.

Be seeing you.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 16, 2007, 12:28:18 AM
Obertray, no, it's not you.  Unless you are a 55 year-old ex Manhattanite now living in West Jerusalem who insists that everyone read articles he finds interesting in the world's newspapers--not the links, mind you, no, he prints out the whole damn thing, post after post after post.  And, he's pro Palestinian.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 16, 2007, 03:06:17 AM
That's because Michael has to ride that crippled bicycle through Palestine to get to his clinic and the cafeteria and what not before Shabbos as well as back to the city. No matter how many times, he went over it, I did not get the whole picture but there were the endless accidents , temporary cripplings of one small necessary function or another and, when he'd stop to rest, he would inevitably discover some exciting thing to read on the top of a garbage heap or can, which is how we resolved that it was actually Donald Rumsfeld neglecting the biological test pets out on the island too close to populated Manhattan, likewise Deptford no doubt, and what about all those biochemists burnt to a crisp in their automotive accidents?

My lips are sealed as to where the anthrax might have come from, knowing the geography all too well made the whole thing too suspicious to me.

But this was all a cover because what I wasn't ready for was looking up the review articles, since I remembered the story in the papers about the lab problem. And searching the archives of The New York Times revealed a real challenge, are you ready for this donotremove? Michael used to work there. He had a little something going with a lady reviewer who shall be nameless although she is still trying very hard to be the last remaining reviewer aboard ship no matter how much of the place is closed down.  That's the problem, she aced Michael and without knowing which end was up, he had to give up his place on the upper West side, remember how he would sign on or sign off, "This is Michael, formerly of the upper West side of Manhattan now living on the west side of Jerusalem."? It would be cheaper to live in Israel with a permanently sporadically broken bicycle and a clinic pass and keeping all the rules of kosher familiar from the upper West side of Manhattan.

I seem to remember, he usually showed up on Sundays, early, when Sabbath was definitely over. He'd enter through the portals of Book News and Reviews and eventually he looked around the place and wrote where we hung out. For those who mistakenly suppose he was in some way related to you know who, he wasn't even him in the least; just because two guys have the same name and both have worked for The New York Times doesn't mean a thing.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 16, 2007, 06:46:59 AM
Interesting. Why not ask karlhenning over in the still ongoing classical music forum? They’re still chatting it up over there. The NYTimes seems to like elitist opera lovers and classical music queens…

For some reason, Mick Sussman and his ilk became disenchanted with the Readers Group. Whether it was jealousy or business pressure from above with the Select fiasco or whether it was just plain laziness—the fact is they dumped the group in the gutter with lifeline.

I knew the last monthly discussion with the Assia Wevill biography would be difficult—because of the tragic Hughes-Plath-Wevill ménage-a-trois. I nominated and voted for it—I tried to keep the discussion on track—by concentrating on the poetry that came out of that nightmare. Poets aren’t necessarily the epitome of bourgeois manners—perhaps that’s why their insights can be so startling & uncouth. After all, they’re only human beings…

But the sudden decision by NYTimes deciders to purge the forums didn’t help the discussion much. And it wasn’t just lifeline that queered the discussions. Gravity’s Rainbow was another controversial book—that met with some rather subversive literary intrigue. If I were a pulp fiction writer, I’d write a crummy novel about it but it bores me now. There’s nothing worse than office politics—especially in the Big Apple.

The NYTimes with its fine literary tradition now prefers opera queens and crossword puzzles to reader’s opinions. Literary critics and podcast interviews are still kosher—but everyday readers like you and me are pretty much just white trash now. Perhaps with the Select fiasco—there needs to be a regime change in NYTimes management?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Furphy on August 16, 2007, 09:00:50 AM
"And, he's pro Palestinian."

I'm pro Palestinian too. Is it against the law to be so?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 16, 2007, 09:11:02 AM
nnyhav: I'm Eliot, too, TSk, TSk.

Re strange foods, my mate sometimes watches Food Network, says some very odd ice creams are made on Iron Chef, and there is a new show on it or travel channel featuring somebody Zimmern (?) eating most peculiar things all over the world.  Would like to have been in on meeting where that was pitched.
Maybe it was sposed to be this book instead:
http://www.indialog.co.in/publications/Hichcock.asp
and IIRC durian icecream was #96 on the list -- so where's the what flava you quiz?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: obertray on August 16, 2007, 09:47:33 AM
You know, if they just asked me to pay for playing on the forums, I probably would have. If they had included the forums in Times Select, I probably would have cussed and kicked and paid and been the happier for having done so (I missed a lot by not going Times Select).

I've been on much worse forums than the NYT. Now I've been on a much better one (if there's a kitty jar somewhere, please tell me).

I didn't even really mind the ads so much. Heck, I used Juno for at least a year back in the day they had the banner at the top of the screen for we freebers, I could live with it. Now I pay for internet access, I don't have the banner.

This is not to say that the NYT might not have ben much better off tossing me off their site, "I'm obnoxious and disliked, I know that's soooooo!" But they didn't so, their bad!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: teddy174c on August 16, 2007, 09:53:13 AM
nnyhav: I'm Eliot, too, TSk, TSk.

Re strange foods, my mate sometimes watches Food Network, says some very odd ice creams are made on Iron Chef, and there is a new show on it or travel channel featuring somebody Zimmern (?) eating most peculiar things all over the world.  Would like to have been in on meeting where that was pitched.
Maybe it was sposed to be this book instead:
http://www.indialog.co.in/publications/Hichcock.asp
and IIRC durian icecream was #96 on the list -- so where's the what flava you quiz?

Dave -- scanning too quickly, for a confused minute I thought Hitchcock had cut a record -- like William Shatner, etc.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on August 16, 2007, 10:17:03 AM
Obert:

"Be seeing you."

Not for a while.  Last time I took off running down the beach in my flimsy Village canvas sneakers, I had the presence of mind to carry a fork with me.  Our angry white balloon constable was no match for it.  So I kept going.  Turns out we're on the coast of Kent!



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 16, 2007, 11:32:12 AM
Furphy, no, it isn't afaik.  I'm pro Palestinian myself.  That was just another fact about Michael that I listed.  Lots of Jews are pro Palestinian.  Not enough to tip the Israeli government to act with any charity towards Palestinians, though they do throw a few bones at them now and then.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 16, 2007, 12:27:42 PM
nnyhav: I'm Eliot, too, TSk, TSk.

Re strange foods, my mate sometimes watches Food Network, says some very odd ice creams are made on Iron Chef, and there is a new show on it or travel channel featuring somebody Zimmern (?) eating most peculiar things all over the world.  Would like to have been in on meeting where that was pitched.
Maybe it was sposed to be this book instead:
http://www.indialog.co.in/publications/Hichcock.asp
and IIRC durian icecream was #96 on the list -- so where's the what flava you quiz?
Dave -- scanning too quickly, for a confused minute I thought Hitchcock had cut a record -- like William Shatner, etc.
Hey, I like the idea -- a Hitchcock rap record! Goöd effenink ... didn't they do something similar with Serling a while back?

Congratulations on your promotion to Sr. Member.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 16, 2007, 02:23:23 PM
Dzimas, the only thing missing is the Wm.Burroughs linked that folded on me. I shall see if I can locate it again later.

http://www.wordsareimportant.com/photos/kerouacscrolldetail.jpg

http://lckorg.tripod.com/id12.html

http://lckorg.tripod.com/

http://www.emptymirrorbooks.com/keenan/b1965-2.html   

Cassady photos        Never forget, he died at the maximum old age of 42.
http://www.emptymirrorbooks.com/keenan/b1966-3.html

http://www.emptymirrorbooks.com/keenan/m1996-5.html 

Women of the Beat Generation

http://www.emptymirrorbooks.com/keenan/citylights-6.html
 
Diane Di Prima (this is where the library atmosphere just became too much for me and I left it at that. You have to compare these photos with the cover of the paperback where she is sitting on top of the piano in her tight over-the-calf-length pants and sandals with tied lacing that go up the leg from the ankle. 
 Recollections of My Life as a Woman: The New York Years by Diane di Prima (Paperback - Mar 26, 2002)
 



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 16, 2007, 02:53:09 PM
Dzimas

Still not finding what I had on Burroughs but he's mixed in here amidst the complete and total history which covers almost everything.

http://www.lib.virginia.edu/small/exhibits/sixties/index.html


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 16, 2007, 03:01:19 PM
And I'm a Jr. Member! Yay!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Furphy on August 16, 2007, 05:44:33 PM
Sorry to be touchy, Donot. Just tired and stressed out to the max.




Furphy, no, it isn't afaik.  I'm pro Palestinian myself.  That was just another fact about Michael that I listed.  Lots of Jews are pro Palestinian.  Not enough to tip the Israeli government to act with any charity towards Palestinians, though they do throw a few bones at them now and then.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 16, 2007, 05:55:20 PM
KITIN ,TS & Sandokan were my favorites as a kid! When I grew up (+ or-)I had my one real life Lolita in the person of my first cousin Jorgelina (Georgina).Blue eyes and flaxen hair to the waist.She took after our grandfather but better looking ;)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 16, 2007, 06:00:49 PM
Those guys at the NYT were nuts to think anyone would pay to read their paper on line when there are so many free good ones. That´s what an overdose of self-esteem got them .


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 16, 2007, 11:32:17 PM
And searching the archives of The New York Times revealed a real challenge, are you ready for this donotremove? Michael used to work there. He had a little something going with a lady reviewer who shall be nameless although she is still trying very hard to be the last remaining reviewer aboard ship no matter how much of the place is closed down. 

For those who mistakenly suppose he was in some way related to you know who, he wasn't even him in the least; just because two guys have the same name and both have worked for The New York Times doesn't mean a thing.

I'm a bit confused, Mad. Are you saying lifeline worked for the NYTimes? Like Ezekiel Savage? Savage even posted  the Book forum was going to be axed the day before it happened. He said he worked for a lady friend at the NYTimes.

And this "lady reviewer who shall be nameless".

Why should she be nameless? Like who is she? Is she the "forum moderator" who axed the book forum?

And when you say "just because two guys have the same name and both have worked for The New York Times doesn't mean a thing" -- what do you mean by that?

It seems to contradict everything else you've said.

Could you please elaborate some on your fascinating message?


Is this just hearsay and gossip? Or can you verify in some way what you've been saying?










Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 17, 2007, 01:26:12 AM
Quote
For those who mistakenly suppose he was in some way related to you know who, he wasn't even him in the least; just because two guys have the same name and both have worked for The New York Times doesn't mean a thing.



This is the part that confuses me, and I've been hunting all over Wikipedia for clues but I keep coming up empty.  And who is You Know Who? 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on August 17, 2007, 09:55:07 AM
martinbeck3: You too read Sandokan, "el tigre de la Malasia" (The Malasian Tiguer ). Mine were soft cover, my father bought them in some second hand books shop in Avenida de Mayo. I bet yours were bound in soft leather with gold lettering, you bloody oligarch!!!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on August 17, 2007, 12:07:09 PM
"Corrupting Dr. Nice" is hilarious sci-fi from John Kessel -- time-travel screwball comedy.  If you like writers like Jonathan Lethem or Connie Willis, this is worth a look.  

Sure is sticky here in Lincoln, Nebraska.  Global warming --- does it all have to happen in the summertime?



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 17, 2007, 01:32:32 PM
Well, reader, if Mick = Mike and Sussman = Lifeline, then all I can say is that “they” sure did spend a lot of time spinning their wheels with spam at the NYTimes….

Why didn’t they just shut it down and keep opera, crosswords and classical music? Why the death of a 1000 cuts? Why torture the Readers who loved reading books and trusted Sussman & the editors of the NYTimes?

My guess is that Mick Sussman got some heat for the Readers Group book votes and discussions. There were some very lively discussions with Lolita, Gravity’s Rainbow, Lovers of Unreason as well as that infamous book by Paglia named BBB.

For example, I remember Sussman moaning and groaning about the vote for Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita--it turned out to be one of the most successful books the Readers Group ever discussed. Madame Sussman used to participate in the forums like James’ Portrait of a Lady. Not bad either—for a lawyer. Not as good as Whiskey, but Sussman tried. But I guess Mick kind of turned sour on Literature—the result being a screwball comedy direct from some kind of twisted “formerly Manhattan” twilight zone.

Naturally, being a pulp fiction true detective story writer, I smell a Big Rat running around behind the wainscoting—worthy of a Raymond Chandler pot-boiler dontchaknow. Who needs sci-fi, when you’ve got avatar games like this going on, Blanche? (BTW what are you doing in that hellhole Nebraska, girl?)

Mad seems to always be full of intriguing little tidbits—verging on science fiction and fantasy. When she mentions “a lady reviewer who shall remain nameless,” well… And then that bit about creep-face working for the NYTimes, well... naturally gauche inquiring minds like mine want to know, baby.

Meandering online pulp fiction mystery stories are great fun to read—especially when you're a Reader right in the middle of one. Isn't that sort of how all of us esteemed Elbanians ended up here, right?

C'mon now, Mad. Please elucidate and don't be so coy...





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 17, 2007, 01:52:41 PM
The idea that Mick Sussman and Michael from Jerusalem are one and the same is silly beyond belief.  I read that post, too, and I think Maddie just lost control on one of those long, tangential sentences that peppers her posts so that it appears she's saying that but isn't really.  Maddie does run to some paranoia, but surely . . . .

I think Sussman just got tired of the Books Forum--all of it.  Nothing criminal about that.  Getting "burnt out" is something that happens.  We don't have to invent a conspiracy to account for it.

As for "over here," as I have said in the past, I hope we do not bring the nasty from the old NYT Forums over to this site.  We should be happy to allow for bad hair days, mistakes, misinformation, junk postings to build up the numbers, and all such human foibles as that.

And, no, this post is not directed at you, Pugetopolis.  It is directed at all of us.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 17, 2007, 05:08:10 PM
The idea that Mick Sussman and Michael from Jerusalem are one and the same is silly beyond belief. Maddie does run to some paranoia, but surely . . . .

And, no, this post is not directed at you, Pugetopolis.  It is directed at all of us.

Well, that's refreshing...

A mild chastisement -- rather than the usual 1000 lashes with a wet noodle...

The fact remains, however, than many of us feel that Mick Sussman betrayed us and purposely let the Readers Group not only fail...but languish for months at the mercy of a scabby-nosed mooching Troll who spammed a once vibrantly intellectual community of Readers into a blithering Blob of Confusion and Hopeless Expectations...

How cynical can you get? Mad is quite correct and so is Reader and Hoffman. Mr. Sussman and the NYTimes deciders failed us. Just connect the dots...

Allowing Lifeline to dominate and torture many of the older Readers used to taking book-chatting and book-discussions seriously was in itself much more than a "bad hair" day for Mr. Sussman. The same with the esteemed NYTimes book and editorial staff who allowed this to happen...dangling the hope for a better forum in the near future.

Playing this kind of cynical game with the Readers Group was not only tacky...it was cruel. It's more like intellectual S/M verging on kicking retirees, handicapped people, shut-ins and loyal fans of different authors -- just because Sussman got burned out? Just because Sussman had a "bad hair" day? C'mon wake up and smell the coffee...

Your ability, Donny, to defend the obvious and play the "don't ask, don't tell" closet game always amazes me.

I admire your chaise-lounge commitment to democratic ideals and literary fair-handedness...even when the deck of cards is fixed. But in this instance, if Maddy knows something, then let her say what she wants to say.

Madame Mad is an adult and can speak for herself...just like the rest of us. Plus she's good at it...she's been around these forums a long time and knows how things work...

Like I said...inquiring minds would like to know.





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 17, 2007, 08:12:27 PM
Quote
My guess is that Mick Sussman got some heat for the Readers Group book votes and discussions. There were some very lively discussions with Lolita, Gravity’s Rainbow, Lovers of Unreason as well as that infamous book by Paglia named BBB.

Wow...guilt load there.....you mean WE closed down the readers' forum?  AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 17, 2007, 08:13:37 PM
(And here I thought those discussions were by far the best......)

 :o


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 17, 2007, 09:05:28 PM
caclark  re:#1032

I had the impression from donotremove's post that we were talking of the same fellow, if you say Lifeline then so be it, I never particularly noticed that usage, as he always said he was Michael from the Upper West side of Manhattan, now of the west side of Jerusalem, etc.

But he asked me to find the review on that book which he'd found. I remembered the story in the news and was able to track in the archives at that time.
Now, the archives are not intact today, anymore than our moderator was leaving the discussions intact about books; he was tossing them out, I'd go to look something up and it would be cut.   For instance, I could go back to Sept.11,2001 and read what was being discussed of Louis Menand's book and learn the reactions of the posters to what was happening and happened on 9/11.  But the more recent material, like Steve Coll's book on the CIA and the war in Afghanistan, etc. was clipped. Considering that  Coll was a roving correspondent for The Washington Post, may have had some reason to hatchet his book's discussion, I don't know. Michael Sussman certainly had participated in the discussion.

From what I learned by responding to
"lifeline"(?) is that he quite possibly was trying to convey information, does anyone know when this began? I don't recall, I just know that I was ousted following the public rebuttal of Byron Calme(sp), from the Wall Street Journal( who was sent to be public editor of the NYT) to the Editor in Chief William Keller following the front page/full page editorial  of Keller in defense of Freedom of the Press and free speech. This has to do with the FISA laws. The Public Editor then wrote scathing, or he thought it was, commentary of his own, and I thought what in the world?,criticizing Keller by stating,"yes, but when did you know Bill, what you found out, and why didn't you say something two years ago?"

Does this imply that Keller knew before the election of 2004?  Anyway, I decided, that since the Public Editor left from his sabbatical at NYT. and was replaced that he always had been a plant to keep an eye on things, because his way of expressing himself was tantamount to how Ann Coulter manages. That same twisty  "got cha!"

Therefore, when I was put on the spot, I went to an outside editor and told my story and found out who was interested because of their own legal views.

But the point everybody seems to be concerned about is elsewhere, so I continue Michael from the ...West Side had worked at the New York Times as a reviewer  that was why he found that particular book and asked me to post the reviews, he didn't tell me,"I reviewed that book and...".

He took a chance that somebody would do him a favor.  I did. I looked for the information that the books dealt with, then found who had written on it, then found who reviewed it, then found there was other information on the reviewer, and of course he knew that would be there.  It is not a hell of a lot different than the Anatole Broyard background of another reviewer referring to Broyard as "illegitimate"; this is a matter of record of why he was calling him out but the motive because he was jealous of Broyard's reviews at The New York Times.

Same here, eventuality being eventuality, someone wrote down in a small article that was accesible why West Side Michael got the shaft;he was involved with another reviewer who still writes;and,frankly is rearranging the files today.  That's what editing is all about, deciding what is "extraneous" opinion; someone with seniority  decides:oh, we have plenty on that topic as it is, well, of course I'll save mine because I have been put in charge of saying what needs editing.  But then, I recall our moderator saying he was a book editor too so no comment.

The rest of it,I couldn't say.  I wasn't there,remember?



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 17, 2007, 09:38:06 PM
Well, that certainly clears up matters doesn't it...

Sort of..... 

Kind of........





Title: Re: Why they pulled the plug
Post by: Furphy on August 17, 2007, 11:05:03 PM
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but I don't think it was anything we said or didn't say that brought about the demise of the books forums.

They simply weren't a money maker. When the ads did appear in our Nirvana they were so inappropriate for the kinds of people inhabiting there. And we all said so and stuck our joint and several tongues out at the Times telling them that we would never spend a nickel with their sponsors.

Remember the really big movie ad with the sulky young people and what a lot of loud laughter it provoked?

I did rather foolishly suggest that books or at least book sellers be advertised on site but that idea apparently didn't fit anyone's plans.

Anyway, I don't think that anything we said on site was likely to shock the Times or it's readers.  It's just that they must have spent a great deal of money on tech support and their ever crashing server. It's likely that they just got tired of the trouble and expense and pulled the plug.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 18, 2007, 01:37:32 AM
" . . . they just got tired of the trouble and expense and pulled the plug"--Furphy

That's what I think, too.  Newspapers' bottom line is a serious thing nowadays.  All of them, big and little, are cutting out any fat they can find. Hell fire, I'm doing the same thing with my budget here at the house.

Pugetopolis, Maddy can connect the dots any way she wants.  It's okay with me.  I am a friend.  Still, Michael, West Jerusalem, bike riding, public computer user who is being abused by the Israeli government with the Wisconsin Plan scheme to force people off the dole (although I believe they've stopped that now that he turned 55) used to review books for the NYT?   :-\ ;) 8)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 18, 2007, 02:09:00 AM
I agree with Mary and Donot but what was the point of keeping them around.The book forums had been overun by clowns who either did not talk books or fancied themselves some kind of Wit and everyone just had to know how clever they were.That was why 2/3rds of the old posters who actually talked books went elsewhere.As for cutting costs the Times has been shameless about it.First they raised the natl edition 25cents then two weeks ago cut 1.5 inches off every edition.The actual paper is very strange to hold now.When you open it up 3 inches of newspaper are gone.Which is why I have switched to Sunday only delivery and I'm thinking of cutting 1.5 inches off my check for next payment.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 18, 2007, 02:18:54 AM
Michael used to review books for the NYT?   :-\ ;) 8)

Lifeline used to review books for the NYTimes? That's hard to believe.

If that's true, then is that why they let Lifeline hang around for so long and post everything he wanted to?

Professional courtesy to a fellow card-carrying union-member journalist???? I don't think so.

I find that very hard to believe, Maddy and Donotremove. It's all rather flummoxing and futile anyway.

Furphy is probably right; it was a money thing.

But if that's true, why did they keep the Book forum twisting in the wind for so long?

They got rid of all the other forums except for Opera, Classical Music and Crossword Puzzles.

These three forums still active -- because they're money makers?

Again, I don't think so. I still smell a big fat rat...












Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 18, 2007, 02:58:17 AM
The book forums had been overun by clowns who either did not talk books or fancied themselves some kind of Wit and everyone just had to know how clever they were.That was why 2/3rds of the old posters who actually talked books went elsewhere.

I don't think that's true at all.

The Nabokov Lolita discussion as well as the Paglia BBB discussion and the Pynchon Gravity's Rainbow discussion had more readers, participants and postings than any other Readers Group monthly book discussions the NYTimes ever had. If anything, the Readers Group was gaining readers -- not losing them.

I think your remarks are simply sour grapes, because I don't remember you participating in any of those three Readers Group discussions. And I have backup copies of those discussions to prove what I'm saying. Sour grapes and jealousy played a big role in the Book forums when some of the younger readers got more active and interested in the Readers group as well as some of the other forums such as Urban Poetry and Fiction.

Perhaps "anal' would be a better word to characterize your criticism. You know "anal" -- like the offensive Rummy Rumsfield-Fireman butt-fucking photo you continue to flaunt on this website. I find this photo very offensive and who knows how many people have been driven away from Elba because of its blatant homophobic cynical humor. It's just as insensitive and ignorant as your comments about Provincetown selling its soul to the devil just because they welcome the GLBT community to live and vacation there like anybody else in this country.

I don't think this picture is funny at all and I doubt if the former secretary of defense thinks it's funny either.

May I suggest you choose a less ignorant image to represent yourself in this forum with, my dear.

(http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/824-he-likes-it.jpg)













Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 18, 2007, 03:32:27 AM
Puge, you can't banish someone like Lifeline unless you have "invitation only access", which some of the old NYT discussions had.  But Books was open, and Sussman did remove tons of Lifeline's posts (and X'd out his IDs, to which Lifeline would just change his trailing number.)  Finally, Sussman just gave up, especially after some of us (me included) started to actually read some of Michael's posts--the ones that were about him and his daily rounds--and were posting back to Michael.

God.  Those newspaper article posts were everywhere.  Even in Parenting, for chrissakes.

Well, the poor waif is out there in the Jewish night, newspaper article print outs bulging from every pocket, with nowhere to lay his wordy eggs.  Sheesh.  Is that a tear in my eye?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 18, 2007, 03:59:36 AM
Donny, you don't even know if Lifeline exists. Your tears could be for naught, my friend.

We've seen enough Trolls come and go in the Book Lounge as well as the other book forums to know that there are many Trolls out there in the internet aether just waiting to do what they do.

Most of them like Trolvig are out to just do one thing: to cause trouble and get attention. I know because I've kept records of all the ones that attacked me and filed them away under Homophobia. Because that's my weak point from their point of view -- Christ even the haiku poets from Scotland were on my case simply because my haiku weren't politically correct, i.e. my love was directed to something they hated.

But not all Trolls are mean-spirited and cruel -- some exist to play the violin and make a sucker out of you. Especially you since you're pretty much a good sport and have an open heart for those not as lucky as us or those with problems or those down and out. It's okay with me if you make excuses for them or feel sorry for them. Obviously the Man with the Red Horse is a fair-minded man and treats people by the golden rule.

But personally, despite what Maddy says, I don't think Lifeline exists -- except as the Avatar for somebody else. It really doesn't matter who or what organization is promulgating this Avatar and what he was doing to ruin and drag down the last vestiges of the Readers Forum. It's all rather academic now isn't it?

IMHO however the worst kind of Trolls are like Bosox18d -- out in the open and in your face with their prejudice. At least with Lifeline there wasn't any hoity-toity better-than-thou denigrating jealous sour grapes prejudice like Bosox18d & her garbage.

I miss the Book Lounge a lot. You were a good moderator of that forum.

But that was then; this is now....












Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 18, 2007, 04:11:43 AM
Actually, The Corrections (Dec. 2001) held the record for most posts, around 1400 as I remember.  Of course, it benefited greatly from all the controversy that surrounded the book.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 18, 2007, 04:17:10 AM
Speaking of the red horse, how do you put a picture up anyway?  Are there some instructions somewhere on Melba and I've missed it?

I gotta go to bed.  If I stay up much longer I'm going to eat so many more peanut butter and crackers my butt soon won't fit in this chair.  I need a cigarette.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 18, 2007, 04:19:47 AM
Puge, I don't know the answer to your question, but you limiting it to the GLBT Melbas is not fair.  All of us Melbaites that are not homophobic--which is the majority as far as I am able to tell from the texts of posts--should ponder the question as well.

Bosox is not a heavy poster.  He never was, even at the NYT discussions (of course, I didn't go to a lot of the discussions.  Mostly just books and food.)  He and Mosca were often a pair in non fiction. But I did notice that picture when it went up here.  I was surprised.

What to do?  Await events, I guess.  Your post over in Meander should stir something up.

Very well. I'll post what I posted in the Gay forum over here.

Threads don't seem to go anywhere over there anyway.

How can one dialog with Winslow and his ilk.

They only guilt you to death and kick the dead.





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 18, 2007, 04:31:57 AM
Dzimas,I must have missed a post on monthly book readings.As I recall"At Swim Two Birds" was one of the shorter groups but there was a book after that that really lacked posts.What forum did The Great Debate take place in?We even did a novel in American History"Cloudsplitter" during the golden age of the forums.Who can forget Teddys "Dillard Sundays"Those early years were great cause Mick always joined in on the book of the month and Whiskey came up with some very interesting titles in non-fiction usually to vote on.Who can forget the Cow Picture book or PDR and other assorted interesting titles.Then there was that Indian Film Director....


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 18, 2007, 04:37:10 AM
Speaking of the red horse, how do you put a picture up anyway?  Are there some instructions somewhere on Melba and I've missed it?

I gotta go to bed.  If I stay up much longer I'm going to eat so many more peanut butter and crackers my butt soon won't fit in this chair.  I need a cigarette.

Donny, to post a picture you've got to have a link to it first of all.

Then when you have the link, simply press the button up above your post-- the one on the second row that's second from the left. It's between the "beachball" and the "blue globe." When you move your cursor over it, it should tell you it's for images. Press it and you'll get this: 2 [img] parenthetical markers. Then insert your link between the 2 parenthetical closed markers.

For example, Bosox's image can be found in his/her profile page in the members section up above. Right clicking on the image and then moving down the drop-down list to the "Properties" whatchamajigger will give you the link.

The link to Bosox's image is "http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/824-he-likes-it.jpg" which makes it even more offensive in my book implying that "he-likes-it"

Bosox knows better than that and I don't realistically think he can defend that image -- not with its obviously crummy connotations implying what it implies...

Experiment with these Elba buttons -- you can always preview or delete it.

Good night.




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Furphy on August 18, 2007, 10:22:57 AM
And Bosox is a real and steady reader. He reads the nature, travel and history books that he enjoys.

He just doesn't feel any need to show off in public.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on August 18, 2007, 10:45:31 AM
Reader52 -- haven't read Gibson in a few years.  While I liked Neuromancer, and some of his cyberpunk stories,  I think his style started to wear on me a bit, or maybe I lost interest.  It probably is time to see what he's up to these days, thanks for mentioning him.  I think the last thing I read of his was Virtual Light, so it's been a while.   At that time, it seemed like a case of the quip, "the future isn't what it used to be."





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 18, 2007, 03:17:49 PM
And Bosox is a real and steady reader. He reads the nature, travel and history books that he enjoys.

He just doesn't feel any need to show off in public.



Elba haiku

Furphy so frumpy—

Bosox homophobic pig

Same old same old shit.


http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,112.msg25691.html#msg25691


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 18, 2007, 04:10:37 PM
The Vomitorium

Meanwhile back at the Vomitorium, Gordon paused a moment…
 
They were all there as usual. All the inmates…

After the Titanic sank, they’d simply jumped in a lifeboat and moved over to a new Ship of Fools.

There was the Argentine diva and the Georgia Peach…

The cranky Bosox playing with himself…

What’s her name reading her New Yorker

There was Henry James, as usual, cruising Miles and Peter Quint.

What a nice pair of lovers they made…

Madame De Farge knitting there by the pool…scowling at the men.

She had that jaundiced guillotine look in her eyes…

How she hated Mexican food—especially big enchiladas

Donny secretly smoking his cigarettes in the locker-room…

Whiskey gorging himself on squirrel ice cream…

Hoffman, Reader, Charles & Sussman playing bridge…

Mad in her straitjacket meandering away as usual…

Liquid Silver plotting revenge & revolution…

Lifeline dead in the deep end of the pool…

Gordon yawned. Ho-hum…

Some things just don’t change


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 18, 2007, 08:25:45 PM
Ah, but in the real word of newspaper publishing the Crossword Puzzle is the greatest draw for subscription-paying readers.   As it emanates from Manhattan, although it has a Washington,D.C. edition, etc. which I loathed, it has an Opera-going, Classical Music performance attending subscriber list.   You are apparently out of touch with this particular metropolitan area.  Even Walt Whitman loved it. He cruised here.

When it comes to this:

"Mad in her straitjacket meandering away as usual…" , you are putting yourself into the knee-jerk level of a mosca and you don't even know what self-pushed button of his that he was responding to; but I take particular offense at the denigration you decide to toss off while lecturing bosox about his homophobia, you feel like being demeaning in this way is somehow flash?

By the way, the writer from Jerusalem was there posting before you ever crashed the party. So, get real.  What might concern you more is the real laboratory out there off of Long Island that isn't getting Federal inspection and updating, kind of a Katrina waiting to happen; that's what the former reviewer was talking about.

Don't expect any empathy for yourself and yours when you can't live up to equitable respect for others but, I know your come-back  would be  something to do with you don't need any, narcissism will out. Smug.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 18, 2007, 08:37:35 PM
Dzimas,

"That dim waystation of undergraduate debauchery on Morningside Heights."-Diana Trilling.


During the 1940's, the West End Bar served as a gathering place for the students of Columbia. It was the social hangout of the campus. After a long day of studying, students would visit the West End for its food, drinks, and fun. (If it had been a particularly hard day, one could even drown their sorrows away in a cold glass of beer.) Unlike the Columbia campus, the West End was open to females. As a result, the Bar became a meeting place for students from Columbia and Barnard (Columbia's sister school). Despite the fact that the West End served as the hangout for the entire campus, it was also frequented by the Beats throughout much of the forties and fifties. Not only did some of their most crazy antics occur at the West End, Lucien Carr rolling Jack Kerouac down the street in a barrel, but it was also their meeting place. In fact, the importance of the West End showed up in Jack Kerouac's The Town and the City. Most of his characters were based on regulars at the bar.

Sarah Doran

St. Paul's Chapel
This is one of the few original campus buildings not designed by the architectural firm of McKim, Mead, and White. In Vanity of Duluoz Kerouacâs fictional; alter-ego says: Iâm passing St. Paulâs Chapel on the campus, and going down the old wood steps they had there, here comes Mueller [David Kammerer] boundering eagerly, bearded, in the gloom, up my way, sees me, says: ÎWhereâs Claude ? [Lucien Carr] Îin the West End.â ÎThanks. Iâll see ya later!" And I watch him rush off to his death.â This is one of the many references in Kerouacâs work to the murder of David Kammerer by Lucien Carr. Nineteen-year-old Lucien Carr was a brilliant, bold, sophisticated, and rebellious student at Columbia who was a mentor to Kerouac and Ginsberg. David Kammerer, a thirty-three-year-old former St.Louis P.E. instructor, had become obsessed with Carrâs physical beauty and hounded him across the country, from Missouri to Maine to Illinois to New York. Michael Schumacher writes in his biography of Allen Ginsberg. "To people who knew[them], the situation was sad pathetic :Lucien was decisively heterosexual, and the tall, bearded Kammerer,[was obsessed] with Lucien to the point of forsaking his life and self-respect in his hopeless pursuit ..." His harassment of Carr intensified until one night after everyone had drunk far too much in the bars, Kammerer and Carr walked alone to Riverside Park, quarreling all the way. There, Kammerer made a drunken threat against Celine Young, the woman Carrr was living with, and then jumped on Carr, telling him he loved him and demanding sex again, and threatening to kill him and take his own life. Lucien pulled out his Boy scout knife and stabbed Kammerer and then weighted his body and threw it into the Hudson River. Lucien shaken, went to Burroughâs apartment and then to Kerouacâs for advice. He and Kerouac talked it over. They drank a few beers, went to Times Square for hot dogs, watched Kordaâs The Four Feathers in a movie house, and then went to the Museum of Modern Art. Two days later, Carr turned himself into police. Kerouac and Burroughs were arrested for failing to report the crime; Burroughs father bailed him out, while Kerouac went to jail. Carr was charged with second degree murder and served time in a reformatory. Kerouac and Burroughs collaborated on a mystery novel, And the Hippos Were boiled in Their Tanks, that was based on Kammererâs murder.

******reprinted from Bill Morgan's The Beat Generation In New York******

Ryan Westervelt



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 18, 2007, 08:43:27 PM
Dzimas,  Part two, on the West End Bar, from the "usual sources".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_End_Bar

This is by the way, although you probably have not been following  these posts, where the obviously remembered and therefore renowned Michael from the upper West Side lived  before  he couldn't afford to any more.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on August 18, 2007, 09:16:19 PM
Reader....I did know about Vivian Darkbloom, but I don't remember where I came across it.  Was it in Lolita?  I think Speak, Memory ended before that name came up.  And now, I'm going to have to search my Nabokov collection and see if I can remember where it was.  What a nice way to spend the rest of the evening.

How did you find it?
Catching up... first, I was Light in August.  Which is odd, all in all, because I have mostly been living out of hotels - Giordano's delivers! - all month long and have put on weight.  But enough of that.

Vivian Darkbloom, you will doubtless recall, was a close friend of Clare Quilty's, who authored the remen...  rem... book about him, "My Cue" which many critics believe to be her best work. 

I note also Arthur Phillips's The Egyptian is dedicated in part to the invaluable example of Ms. Vivian Darkbloom, although the book is much more indebted to a somewhat paler fire than the one Humbert Humbert sparked.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on August 18, 2007, 09:24:44 PM
Speaking of the red horse, how do you put a picture up anyway?  Are there some instructions somewhere on Melba and I've missed it?

I gotta go to bed.  If I stay up much longer I'm going to eat so many more peanut butter and crackers my butt soon won't fit in this chair.  I need a cigarette.
Under profile, it gives you an option reading, I think, Forum Profile Information.  Click the "I have my own picture" button and insert the url for the picture and you too can honor a 70's Russian movie no one but you seems to have seen!


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 18, 2007, 10:01:06 PM
Don't expect any empathy for yourself and yours when you can't live up to equitable respect for others but, I know your come-back  would be  something to do with you don't need any, narcissism will out. Smug.

"You have a point. An idiotic one, but a point." -- Addison DeWitt


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 18, 2007, 10:06:05 PM
Whiskey, Giordano's delivers halfbaked by FedEx here cf http://www.giordanos.com/shop/home.php?cat=1 . Not quite the same as being there, but better than the alternatives (except maybe Gino's East).

Furfy, some Brit culture for ya:
Knitted Homes of Crime: http://www.freddierobins.com/work_3d/knittedhomes.htm (via quiddity)
Hammering Sam Johnson: http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/news/story/0,,2146655,00.html (via bookdaddy)


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 18, 2007, 10:32:11 PM
(http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/824-he-likes-it.jpg)

This is a profile pic from one of our Elba posters.

It shows Rummy Rumsfield being butt-fucked by a butch nude Fireman. Bosox18d is the proud displayer of this homophobic photo; Bosox18d has also made some disparaging remarks about Provincetown selling its soul to the devil because it welcomes members of the GLBT community to live and vacation there.

My question is this: how should GLBT members of Elba handle such homophobic displays by supposedly adult posters in this forum? Obviously ignorant posters like Winslow will continue to kick us and guilt us about aids and our lifestyle. There can be no dialog or threads with such people.

But bosox18d was a former member of the esteemed NYTimes book group and I can only shake my head at how supposedly intelligent book-reading NYTimes-subscribing human beings can be so bigoted and totally insensitive to alternate life styles. It's as if the civil rights movement never existed and gays are still being treated as subhuman creatures that should be shoved into gas chambers like the Nazis did with the Jews. Or lynched and castrated like the blacks in the Deep South.

What's especially flummoxing to me is that Chartres defends this ugly man despite his sexism and homophobia; and Madame Mad strikes back at me like a venomous snake simply because I object to such displays of ignorant homophobia.

How can one be polite with homophobes? They don't change; they just get worse.

I wonder how both these fine ladies would feel if they themselves were forced to assume the position Mr. Rumsfield has scandalously been put into -- bending over for a gauche muscular naked Fireman?

Think about it, Chartres and Mad. I wouldn't wish that on you or anybody else.

I'm shocked -- simply shocked by such sniveling cynical hypocrisy!!!!!

And no, I'm not interested in arguing with people about gay rights. I tire of doing that with this group.

I simply want to draw attention to something in this Meandering forum...

Something that's rotten and stinks.





Title: Re: If memory serves....
Post by: Furphy on August 19, 2007, 12:09:27 AM
Was it you, Bo, who was trying to think of the book with fewest posts in any monthly reading group?

I believe that was Monica Ali's "Brick Lane" which had 56 or so posts total for the month.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 19, 2007, 12:12:27 AM
Puget,

I did not reconize that the pose was supposed to suggest that Rumsfeld was getting what he deserves. I guess I didn't pay it too much attention. I suspect it is more of a political statement, if that IS what it is suggesting, than it is a homophobic one. I think you are over-reacting. Perhaps with cause, perhaps not.

I have visited the Gay Rights board a few times, but it really is not something I am truly interested in. I have no problem with people living as they choose, marrying as they choose. If they choose to adopt children, I expect them to be stable, loving parents to the best of their ability and not leave the child standing out in the cold or embroiled in some custody battle. I expect the same of heterosexual parents who adopt children. Beyond that, I do hope they will behave with customary decorum in public and do what they will behind closed doors.

I wrote a poem about male homosexualtiy in college and entered it in the campus poetry contest. It won second prize. I was told later by the head of the judging committee that had they known it was written by a woman and mother, it would have won first prize. The judging was anonymous, and the judges didn't want to encourage "that sort of thing" on the campus so they gave it second place. They assumed it was written by a young male.

Be careful how you make judgements, and don't just go on your first gut reaction. It could be wrong.


Title: Re: Thanks, NNY
Post by: Furphy on August 19, 2007, 12:14:50 AM
I had missed the item on the Reynolds portrait of my beloved Sam Johnson.

If I make it to the end of Henry Adams' two part history of the early years of our Republic by Christmas, I intend to give next year to the Brits.

I haven't read Austen in simply ages and it's got to be five years or more since I took dear, silly old Boswell down off the shelf.

And Johnson's "Lives of the Poets" is certainly worth another go.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: bosox18d on August 19, 2007, 12:28:03 AM
Mary, Yes it was I asking about the reading group with fewest posts.I'd forgotten all about that book.Our local PBS station has been showing classic films every Sat Night at ten.Last week was the superb"Strangers on a Train".Before that was a two part showing of"Once Upon a Time in America" the first time I have actually watched it all the way through.There have been a few others since it started this summer but I just saw the listing for tonights film is"Bridges of Madison County" Someone at KCET must be smoking crack to consider that an American classic.The series is hosted by Martin Sheen.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on August 19, 2007, 12:32:02 AM
bosox: Isn't that a picture of a fireman and that person who when the archellogical museum in Bagdhad was robbed said something like "sht happens"?....


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on August 19, 2007, 12:32:56 AM
boasox: I'd meant to write archeollogical instead.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: elportenito on August 19, 2007, 12:45:37 AM
florianopolis: Can't you see how happy Rummy looks in the picture?...what's your problem?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 19, 2007, 01:03:05 AM
There are two possible interpretations of the photo.  The photo is either meant to denigrate Rumsfield by implying that he's gay (and isn't there something a little junior highish in the idea that the easiest way to insult a man is to call him "gay"?), or it shows a gay man raping him.

How is this not anti-gay?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 19, 2007, 01:06:36 AM
Port, what time is it in Sidney?  You sittin' in that green kitchen thinking about spelling archeological?  An no way you spell it looks right?

I'm reading a book about the world's slums.  You got any slums in Sidney?  Squatters?  Homeless?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 19, 2007, 01:12:04 AM
Puget, I suspect it is more of a political statement, if that IS what it is suggesting, than it is a homophobic one.

(http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/824-he-likes-it.jpg)


Please notice the title of the url link: http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/824-he-likes-it.jpg

Now what do you think "he-likes-it" means?

Ice Cream, Cookies and Cake? Tea, Marmalade and Toast?

C'mon now, there's a naked guy behind Rummy.

A big naked hairy guy with a grim look on his face.

Put 2 + 2 together and what do you get?

It doesn't look innocent to me.

There are different ways to make a political statement...

Without slurring and denigrating gays as "fudge-packers."

That's what "he-likes-it" means to me.

Rummy likes to get butt-fucked.

Are we in a state of Denial here?

Gimme a break, weezo.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 19, 2007, 01:23:32 AM
florianopolis: Can't you see how happy Rummy looks in the picture?...what's your problem?

(http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/824-he-likes-it.jpg)

C'mon now boca.

I wouldn't wish that off even on a Republican...


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 19, 2007, 01:35:24 AM
There are two possible interpretations of the photo.  The photo is either meant to denigrate Rumsfield by implying that he's gay (and isn't there something a little junior highish in the idea that the easiest way to insult a man is to call him "gay"?), or it shows a gay man raping him. How is this not anti-gay?

(http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/824-he-likes-it.jpg)

Well, Hoffman, there's a third possible interpretation of bosox's photo.

Rummy was having a news conference in the Pentagon.

It was an important conference and FOX-News etc was all there.

It was broadcast live across this wonderful country.

And it was simply chance and coincidence that a naked Fireman showed up.

Naked as a blue jay and interested in only one thing.

And it wasn't a fire to put out either...

It was just a quirk...it didn't mean anything.

No hidden agenda...no political statement...no gay slur.

It was just a strange coincidence that's all...

Puget is just being paranoid as usual...

Don't pay any attention to him...

He's probably a Young Republican anyway.....



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 19, 2007, 03:46:53 AM
There does seem to be some screening going on here.  I briefly had a photo of man tossing a caber, in reference to my recent trip to Scotland, which I noticed had been replaced.  I can only assume that some "authority" found this photo offensive, as the photo is still available through Yahoo! images. 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 19, 2007, 11:10:23 AM
There does seem to be some screening going on here.  I briefly had a photo of man tossing a caber, in reference to my recent trip to Scotland, which I noticed had been replaced.  I can only assume that some "authority" found this photo offensive, as the photo is still available through Yahoo! images. 


Ha!  What could possibly be offensive about Caber Tossing?  Ancient sport and all...and in my family, Scottish games rule!

It is a entertaining, though, that Anglo males seem to enjoy games with sticks.   Irish, British have their cricket, Americans have baseball, Canadiens have hocky.....of course NOBODY can one up the caber!


Title: Re: Just wondering
Post by: Furphy on August 19, 2007, 11:24:32 AM
What if I, as a member of the world's most persecuted majority, find Puget's picture offensive?

Objectifying women as mere sexual playthings has always left us vulnerable to abuse, rape and murder.

And the title of the lead article? Woman as a predatory Black Widow spider. Hardly flattering.

We need to all keep our noses clean or be careful that we aren't living in glass houses before we take to chucking stones about.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on August 19, 2007, 11:35:19 AM
Quote
There does seem to be some screening going on here.
That doesn't seem like liq to do that.  I suspect there's another reason.
Quote
I briefly had a photo of man tossing a caber, in reference to my recent trip to Scotland, which I noticed had been replaced.
Of course, the real athletes are the caber catchers.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 19, 2007, 11:51:20 AM
Furphy,

Thank you for making a most excellent point about the pictures. I find Puget's picture much more offensive than Bosox's which I do think is funny now that I have been told what it is about. I didn't need an explantion for Puget's - it was just in bad taste.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 19, 2007, 11:54:00 AM
Re: Meander Where You May            
« Reply #1068 on: August 18, 2007, 04:10:37 PM »
                              
Re: Meander Where You May
« Reply #1076 on: August 18, 2007, 10:32:11 PM »



"and Madame Mad strikes back at me like a venomous snake simply because I object to such displays of ignorant homophobia".

"I'm shocked -- simply shocked by such sniveling cynical hypocrisy!!!!!"

You would be but it sounds so campy. It is vogue--ing to pretend that what I posted was not an objection to your derogation of me  in a putative poem that you spammed into two different locations among these forum(just as you do by assumming two different identities). Your pretensions when you cry wolf to get sympathy are that you know whereof you speak and something tells me that as a matter of fact I have known more homosexuals in all of the arts and literature and subsidiary occupations, in my lifetime, than you would have like to have known "don'cha know ", as you always say with your affected  Henry Millerism.

Is this "chance and coincidence":


Date  Subject From  
 August 17, 2007, 12:40:10 PM None Reader5232  

Pages: [1]    


 Author Topic
Reader5232
Full Member

Posts: 218



    None
« Sent to: madupont on: August 17, 2007, 12:40:10 PM » Quote Reply Remove

My dear madupont,

I must say that despite our occasional disagreements -- and even outright quibbling -- I quite enjoy your presence here.

reader5232
 
 
 
 

Pages: [1]  

   Powered by SMF 1.1.3 | SMF © 2006, Simple Machines LLC    

I find this in my messages in the afternoon prior to you publicly scrawling your idea of poems in which you freely refer to me in a nasty manner indicating prejudice although you think it isn't anything near as ugly as your critique of a logo used by another poster. You had to get in a few more nasty remarks about other people including myself before finishing your so innocent righteous tirade of self-aggrandizement.  

Who declared you as the group's Number 1 resident homo"exsual" anyway? as if we were not quite aware of where everybody is coming from long before you went into your act out of nowhere.

"I wonder how both these fine ladies would feel if they themselves were forced to assume the position Mr. Rumsfield has scandalously been put into -- bending over for a gauche muscular naked Fireman?

Think about it, Chartres and Mad. I wouldn't wish that on you or anybody else.

I'm shocked -- simply shocked by such sniveling cynical hypocrisy!!!!! "



Sure you are.




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 19, 2007, 02:28:46 PM
It's hard for me to be offended by True Detective magazine.  It sort of goes back to the days when young men read that magazine and young women read such as True Romance.  Everything in those magazines was exaggerated:  good, evil, love, sex.   I suppose you could say that True Detective leads to objectification and false expectations of women in the same way that reading Harlequin romances leads to objectification and false expectations of men.  These magazines had a bit of a cachet of naughtiness about them...but geez....this was back in the fifties.  We see worse stuff than this even in comic books.

Back in its glory days, Dashell Hammet wrote the occasional piece for this magazine, and apparently it was quite popular with law enforcement officials...all the way to the top and J. Edgar himself. 

Charles Addams (New Yorker) used to doctor up the crime scene photos...a task he sometimes found offensive.  He had some idea that those photos were quite effective as is.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 19, 2007, 03:15:56 PM
$106,000 Blood Money, "The Big Knockover", "The Girl with the Silver Eyes", "The House on Turk Street".  "Dead Yellow Women",  "Nightmare Town",  "The Gutting of Coufignal" Woman in the Dark: A Novel of Dangerous Romance (published in Liberty magazine in three installments in 1933)

http://histmyst.org/mysteries/hammett.html

Prior to writing, Dashiell Hammett was a Pinkerton man and it changed his outlook from right to left. He had to write for magazines because he married a woman named Nell who was a writer and they had two little girls. One has written about him as recently as 2001.  The rest of us just know him as the debonair romantic fellow whom Lillian Hellman respected and adored until he died.

As far as detective magazines, my grandmother's preferred reading were those newspaper style yellow journalism style horrors you found piled at the barber shops back in the Thirties and Forties. I have a hunch my uncles dropped them off at her house. She loved these,as many a Scotswoman or Englishwoman does(some prefered Ian Fleming), as dearly as General Pershing.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 19, 2007, 03:19:56 PM
Drats, I was going to say, I missed, Strangers on a Train? But then I thought about it, I hate that guy. I just like Farley Granger. And what I was thinking of was how I have been missing Patricia Highsmith, the writer of these insights.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 19, 2007, 03:21:05 PM
I was surprised myself, whiskey, given how much goes unnoticed in these forums, but anyway I will leave the caber tossers and catchers to their own domain.  I think any avatar gets stale after awhile.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Dzimas on August 19, 2007, 03:32:17 PM
I hope no one is offended by Rita Hayworth.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: barton on August 19, 2007, 04:11:12 PM
No, indeed.  Rita Hayworth, IIRC, is the poster behind which Tim Robbins excavates a hole in his prison cell wall, in The Shawshank Redemption.

Re

"Of course, the real athletes are the caber catchers."

Their trophies are usually awarded posthumously.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 19, 2007, 04:15:12 PM
I was surprised myself, whiskey, given how much goes unnoticed in these forums, but anyway I will leave the caber tossers and catchers to their own domain.  

ca·ber (ka'bar)
n.
A long heavy wooden pole tossed end over end as a demonstration of strength in Scottish highland games.
[Scottish Gaelic cabar, pole, beam, rafter, from Vulgar Latin *capri?, from Latin capra, she-goat. See chevron.]


Blanche, Hoffman and Dzimas—maybe it’s the Latin capra (she-goat) reference that’s, well, somewhat politically incorrect?

Gawd knows, there's enough cranky old she-goats hanging around this joint dontchaknow....

Or maybe the poles were too phallic? Or those young Scots who caught the poles—maybe they were too faggy?

After all, my dears, they do wear kilts don't they?

And sometimes no Abercrombie & Fitch underwear under the kilts either!!!

Vast new vistas of etymological correctness are opening up even as I speak.

Naturally, I’m shocked…







Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Donotremove on August 19, 2007, 04:34:01 PM
---------Interruption with stupid question Alert----------

What does IIRC stand for?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 19, 2007, 04:35:33 PM
(http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/824-he-likes-it.jpg)

Furphy,

Thank you for making a most excellent point about the pictures. I find Puget's picture much more offensive than Bosox's which I do think is funny now that I have been told what it is about. I didn't need an explantion for Puget's - it was just in bad taste.

My dear weeeezo--you find Bosox's picture "funny now" that you've been told what it's about?

Geez, you must have slept through health classes in HS.

Butt-fucking and blowjobs just aren't safe-sex, dontchaknow?????

How can you say Bosox's picture is funny now that you know it's about unsafe sex?

And what's wrong with my picture? It's just a normal straight heterosexual picture of a goodlooking woman?

Same as Dzimas' nice photo of Rita Hayworth...



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 19, 2007, 04:51:03 PM
(http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/824-he-likes-it.jpg)

Seems to me some folks are forgetting how HIV is contracted - with the exchange of body fluids - any body fluids. Urine seems to be an exception, but I'm not willing to chance it on a toilet seet, but saliva, seman, and female fluids, in addition to blood exchanges whether being sprayed on in the emergency room, or using intravenious drugs can be a source. And, yes it is a shame whenever ANYONE contracts HIV no matter their sexual orientation. And no, a blow job is no safer than anal sex. Geez, some of you must have slept through health classes in HS.

Not only that, weeeezo, you yourself have posted over in the Gay Forum about unsafe sex practices:

And no, a blow job is no safer than anal sex.

Bosox's picture is about anal sex which is about the most unsafe thing in the world to do.

You think that's funny? I don't. You must be living in La La Land....

You think Bosox's pic is okay, funny and excusable -- after saying what you've said in the Gay Forum.

You thing aids and butt-fucking are kosher ways to make a political statement about Rummy?

Geeze, you must have not only slept through HS health classes, but you must be brain-dead too.

Thousands have died from it and Africa is getting wiped out by it.

Bosox's pic promulgates this unsafe sex...and you laugh at it.

You and Frumpy are rather queer ducks if you ask me.....




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 19, 2007, 04:58:58 PM
Puget,

Back when I was in high school, they didn't talk about sex, even in Biology class. All we learned in health class was to put on clean socks everyday.

As for "safe sex", there is none. But the acts you describe keep one safe from pregnancy, and can be rendered as safe as any other sex with a condom in place. And, what is "normal" about the front knockers on the babe in your pic? They are about as fake as they get! And, how can you be sure she's heterosexual? No clue!

BTW, if the picture offends you so much, why do you keep including it in your posts? Can't get enough of it?


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 19, 2007, 05:58:28 PM
(http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/824-he-likes-it.jpg)

Puget, BTW, if the picture offends you so much, why do you keep including it in your posts? Can't get enough of it?

See what I mean?

You you just can't help yourself, can you weeeezo?

You just had to get that little homophobic dig in there didn't you?

Implying I like butt-fucking and just can't get enough of it...

Talk about left-handed ad hominem quack-quack.....

I never have been a great fan of butt-fucking and I don't plan to start now.

I keep posting Bosox's pic because I want everybody to see what's going on here.

And your tacky comments about me not getting enough of it simply reinforces what I'm saying.

Maybe it's a generational thing -- like you said your peer group didn't have HS sex ed classes.

You changed your socks and maybe used a rubber...but that's it.

Well, weeeezo, that was then; this is now.

Perhaps your esteemed modern maturity age group comes from a Pre-Stonewall generation ignorance.

But everybody knows about aids and unsafe sex now.

Even you seem to spout it on the soapbox over in the Gay forum.

But for you to continue to back-up Bosox and his pic only means one thing to me.

Who's worse -- the Fireman backing-up Rummy...or you backing-up Bosox!!!!!

I suppose butt-fucking is a tacky way to denigrate males in both high places...and low.

And as far as my True Detective pulp fiction cover is concerned, well, all I can say is what you said.

Can't get enough of it, hmmmm?





Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 19, 2007, 06:55:34 PM
Puget,

When I asked if you couldn't get enough of it, I was referring to seeing the picture. I don't care to know details of your personal sex life.

For the life of me, I have no earthly idea why you are going on so much over a picture. This is supposed to be a discussion of literature, and I don't recall seeing you address that subject. If you have anything to say about what I have posted on the Gay Forum, that is the place to address it. I do not read that forum with any regularity, and if you quoted me on that forum, it was probably some time back and in response to what was going on at the time.

If you are deliberately trying to get the goat up of folks on here, I hope that all will respond to you in an even-handed manner or put you on ignore. That may have worked back on the times, but there is a slightly different group on here now.

You have a choice. Come up to where the flavor is, or continue to drink that sewer water you keep spitting out, but you won't raise my blood pressure. As to my use of condoms, you may be a bit surprised to find out what use I made of that topic over my lifetime. But, we'll let that wait for a suitable forum!

As to your picture - if they don't bounce, they aren't real, they are foam rubber. The picture was drawn long before silicone implants.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 19, 2007, 07:58:53 PM
ReaderOO7,re:#1103
          oops! pugetopolis

That isn't Dzima's picture of Rita Hayworth. That's me.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 19, 2007, 08:22:17 PM
Puget, When I asked if you couldn't get enough of it, I was referring to seeing the picture.

What a crazy answer that is...

But that's okay, weeezo. I don't take it personally. I'm used to it.

After all you're the so-called Poll Manager aren't you -- and you should know better right?

BTW this a Meander Forum not a book forum -- you're still stuck back in the NYTimes era, weeeezo.

Or are you going to start telling me what to talk about in Meander now?

Obviously, you don't like the "flavor" of this Thread. Why?

I can't seem to get a straight answer out of you.

IMHO you're stuck in a state of denial about Bosox...

And denigrating males with your homophobic repartee...

Even Republicans don't deserve that kind of crap...



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: weezo on August 19, 2007, 09:11:55 PM
Puget,

Read the heading for the Meander list and stand corrected.

As for Republicans, the deserve what they dish out, and most of it is crap. We don't need a Patriot Act, we don't need net nannies checking for commies and other assorted free thinkers, and we don't need a king in the white house. What we need is a national health care plan, a living wage even for the poor, and a stable social security system that folks can look forward to in their twilight years. For starters. And, we sure as heck don't need to test the kids to find the incompetent teachers. If the principal doesn't know who can't teach, get him/her out of there.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 19, 2007, 09:12:38 PM
I hope no one is offended by Rita Hayworth.

... Rita Hayworth! It pleases me to be given this glorious woman to use as a term of comparison, for this time has no understanding of her at all. She speaks, her face and body and the timbre of her voice speak to men on their own, as they say, morosely distant from wives and homes, half-drunk in the dim bars of half-empty hotels. She stands in bathroom doorways, in a skirt and brassiere, waiting for a light. She is perfectly and ideally dead, as she should be. What, in this age of speeding trash and moronic facts, would such a body even have to do?

— "Things that have Stopped Moving", Gilbert Sorrentino, The Moon in Its Flight


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 19, 2007, 09:48:03 PM
Puget, Read the heading for the Meander list and stand corrected. As for Republicans, the deserve what they dish out, and most of it is crap. We don't need a Patriot Act, we don't need net nannies checking for commies and other assorted free thinkers, and we don't need a king in the white house. What we need is a national health care plan, a living wage even for the poor, and a stable social security system that folks can look forward to in their twilight years. For starters. And, we sure as heck don't need to test the kids to find the incompetent teachers. If the principal doesn't know who can't teach, get him/her out of there.

Literary? What does your Republican rant have to do with Literature?

At least my comments were True Detective pulp fiction criticism -- postmodern lit crit to be precise.

Just ask the esteemed  Waldo Lydecker and Addison DeWitt -- my literary mentors...




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: nnyhav on August 19, 2007, 09:53:16 PM
Superhero-related injuries in paediatrics: a case series.
Davies P, Surridge J, Hole L, Munro-Davies L.
Department of Paediatrics, Queen's Medical Centre, Nottingham, UK.

Five cases of serious injuries to children wearing superhero costumes, involving extreme risk-taking behaviour, are presented here. Although children have always displayed behaviour seemingly unwise to the adult eye, the advent of superhero role models can give unrealistic expectations to the child, which may lead to serious injury. The children we saw have all had to contemplate on their way to hospital that they do not in fact possess superpowers. The inbuilt injury protection which some costumes possess is also discussed.

from which: "Three of them tried to imitate Spiderman and one Superman. Three were injured after initiating flight without having planned for landing strategies."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&list_uids=17337680&cmd=Retrieve


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 19, 2007, 10:03:43 PM
Literature? You want Literature?

Well, here's some Literature for you -- fresh from the Creative Writing Forum where we've been having great fun publishing social satire and lampoons since Elba has replaced the crummy NYTimes book forums. Desdemona has this ongoing storyline with the various readers contributing plot and character development as the Narrative lurches forward from one scene to the next...and guess what? You're a part of the Great American Novel, now, my dear Weeeeezo!!!! I hope you enjoy your little cameo...

http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,39.msg25836.html#msg25836  

The Vomitorium (cont)

“What is that gawd-awful putrid smell?”

Gordon wrinkled his nose—looking around the pool.

“That’s our new guest,” said Desdemona.

She pointed over to the poor creature moiling about with Bosox in the corner under the ratty palms. They were busy discussing something rather heatedly—and every once in awhile Bosox would stop and cut a fart. They weren’t normal farts—they were exceptionally putrid fetid farts that stank to high heaven…

“Such rude foul-smelling Flatulence,” said Gordon, almost gagging into the pool. Gripping the sides of his chaises-lounge, he bent over almost vomiting but controlled himself.

“If you think that’s bad,” said Desdemona, “wait till you meet Bosox’s buddy, Weeeeeezo the Whacko.”

Weeeeeezo the Whacko? Oh, that one. The one over in Meandering forum who raised such a ruckus over that tacky queer Rummy-Fireman butt-fuck photo? So that’s him.”

“Yeah, that’s Weeeeeezo, honey,” said Desdemona.

“I see,” said Gordon. “That’s why Weeeeeezo likes Bosox?”

“You got it, girl,” said Desdemona.

One could actually see the greenish-stench drift over the pool like swamp gas in somebody’s terrible bayou nightmare…

Gordon shook his head. “Christ, another Flatulence Queen.”



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: whiskeypriest on August 19, 2007, 10:42:11 PM
Quote
from Latin capra, she-goat.
That she goat was always one of my least favorite of the old time directors.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 19, 2007, 11:50:53 PM
nnyhav

"Just ask the esteemed  Waldo Lydecker and Addison DeWitt -- my literary mentors...", pugnacious from Pocatello

I'm quite sure they are categorically what Sorrentino meant by: Things that have Stopped Moving....

Although they went in for some film poeticizing and were "too" of my very favourite actors, I'm not sure that the Pocatello punk does more than filmy poetics flimsily at that, since they definitely were not literary mentors.  Although there are others I seem to remember that would do just as well, it's coming to me through the Crystal Ball, Dale, Dale something or other but nuts, it is not clearing.

Shame, though that Pugetsounds more like and takes after his literary dead Dad George more than Clifton, his mother.

And wasn't Victor Parmalee, the Violet that lhoffman was seeking given time...? How would whiskey have had it so wrong? Not Nabokov after all.
I wonder what ever happened to francesassa?
Just what was the relationship between Gilbert Sorrentino and Robert Creeley? (that he should write  "Afterword"?)

Does lewd and lascivious owe this literary information to weezo whom he so rudely  caricatured?

Not to your knowledge?




Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 20, 2007, 12:26:08 AM
" I'm Addison DeWitt. I'm nobody's fool, least of all yours."

"We all come into this world with our little egos equipped with individual horns. If we don't blow them, who else will?"

And Waldo:  "I cannot stand these morons any longer. If you don't come with me this instant I shall run amok."

"Let's not be psychiatric."

And I wouldn't be too quick to second guess the Whiskey Priest's knowledge of Nabokov (although, I am a bit surprised that Mother Mad hasn't already seen this):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Vivian_Darkbloom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Vivian_Darkbloom)
 
 


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 20, 2007, 12:29:44 AM
I wonder what ever happened to francesassa?

I'm not worried about francesassa -- I'm more concerned about you, Mad.

http://www.topix.net/forum/com/nyt/TAETDPLOO5FQABOUK



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 20, 2007, 01:49:44 AM
lhoffman,re:#1117

Me thinks you give too much credit pertaining to the whiskeypriest's Nabokovian knowledge. I had an old confrere from Europe working beside me in Nat.Sec (who did show up here for a moment or two and then decided this was obviously a put-on. Very sensible man) but anyway, in the old days as you can say around here, Whiskey began giving him/her, whichever, a depiction of the Nabokovian family politics that was all scat. From a European point of view that could be dreadful, I clarified the generational mixup because there are times when I owe one to someone who has done me a favor and not a bum-steer. Then I reminded  your authority of choice, yes, I was there in Princeton for the printing and publishing of both volumes.

Nabokov:The European Years

and, Nabokov: The American Years

written by Brian Boyd.

I realize that has given me a distinct draft, as if it were a personal criticism but in literature one might take better care of information. Sowing disinformation is another matter. But who is into that. Not wp.



Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 20, 2007, 01:52:54 AM
ps.lhoffman

As you can see the fictional aspects hardly apply, which you have suggested; simply no match for the historical facts.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: madupont on August 20, 2007, 02:44:16 AM
Reply #1118, again mr.pugetopoli, if you didn't like the notices, I collect them personally myself, have quite a collection, who are you in the stew of the righteous?   Beside the point isn't it that you weren't even there; sincerely, after throwing  a tantrum for attention, disrupting the Nat.Sec. forum, you flew out of there on your broom and so have no idea which of the dwarts threatened to haul Keller out of the building(of course, announcing it right in his on-line edition, that's smart!)because, in their words, "he ought to be shot", "he ought to be hung,".

I did my research and found when the flack was going to take place, ironically funny Monday when dolt barred my computer access.  I sent it to another editor down the street who got it out.  You see, I know the  managing editor at the L.A.Times (the last time, I looked,anyway) so that was the heading or the lead-in on what you seem to be creaming over, which are just a bunch of people who left their pings  while sounding reckless.

Save Dzimas.  As I said, I didn't get that note until nigh unto seven months later, which I told him as soon as I got here,after just another friend notified me from the Paris bureau  that this place was open. He liked the name of course but he really didn't urge me in until I covered the French elections for him because he was busy with the pre-election campaign work for his party on a daily basis after having set up a forum to keep tabs on the attitude out there in the English-speaking world. By the way, how did you like my Beatles rendition of a classic that eventually became Romeo and Juliet? Don't you think you could have done so much more with it, after hankering for Ovid, knowing as you do so much Hughes. But, oh, by the way, if there were any of your little toady-pixies there, they say Hi and hello and how are you, as they recite your rallying cry exactly.

What I find fascinating about the home-grown petulance, whose authors I recognize by their style, although it is thirteen months later, is that one bummer in there where it turns out yes they finally did get around to a trial and smirk the jerk got off with his commutation after outing an agent. Thirteen months later looking back, that manuevre hasn't helped us one twit with the once greatly proclaimed occupation of Iraq. I wonder who authored that silly little post, no don't tell me, let me guess.
As for frances, I know exactly where she is; unless of course she has gone on vacation. So don't be concerned about me, since you are not exactly Dashiell Hammett or Herschel Dammit.

I am too busy sorting out how Sorrentino who gave up drinking hit up Creeley or if that was a post-mortum nicety on Robert's part; and too sort of busy.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 20, 2007, 02:45:19 AM
Distinct draft/personal criticism or no, Whiskey was right about the source for Vivian Darkbloom.  It's all well and good to be familiar with Boyd, but even better to be acquainted with Boyd's subject.  

Vivian Darkbloom appears in his Lolita, perhaps because this novel concerns itself with the idea of a double.  Vivian Darkbloom is an anagram of Vladimir Nabokov, and, if you have the Boyd at hand, you can probably find mention of other anagrams used by Nabokov.

I don't have Ada, but somewhere in the back of my mind, I recall from leafing through that it is annotated by Darkbloom.  It could be Nabokov had her write the prologue...my recall on this isn't certain.  Either way, Darkbloom is nothing but a wry little figure of Nabokov's imagination.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: Lhoffman on August 20, 2007, 02:51:23 AM
Quote
He liked the name of course but he really didn't urge me in until I covered the French elections for him because he was busy with the pre-election campaign work for his party on a daily basis after having set up a forum to keep tabs on the attitude out there in the English-speaking world. By the way, how did you like my Beatles rendition of a classic that eventually became Romeo and Juliet? Don't you think you could have done so much more with it, after hankering for Ovid, knowing as you do so much Hughes. But, oh, by the way, if there were any of your little toady-pixies there, they say Hi and hello and how are you, as they recite your rallying cry exactly.

Well I for one would certainly love to see your coverage of the French elections.  What paper might I find that in?  Also, most interested in reading some of your poetry....nothing special...only the stuff you've copywrited and published.


Title: Re: Meander Where You May
Post by: pugetopolis on August 20, 2007, 03:23:52 AM
ps.lhoffman As you can see the fictional aspects hardly apply, which you have suggested; simply no match for the historical facts.

Pardon me, Madame Madupont, but let's see now if I've got this straight...

You know all about the Nabokov family (scat and otherwise)...

You were there at Princeton for the printing and publishing of both volumes of Brian Boyd's Nabokov:The European Years and, Nabokov: The American Years...

You helped edit Rexroth's papers in San Francisco when he taught in California...

You personally knew Kerouac, Burroughs, Ginsberg and all the other famous Beatniks back in the fabulous Fifties in the Big Apple...

You have important connections with the editors of the NYTimes, the LA Times & the French intelligentsia...