Escape from Elba

Books => Latin American Literature => Topic started by: Admin on April 16, 2007, 08:47:44 PM



Title: Latin American Literature
Post by: Admin on April 16, 2007, 08:47:44 PM
Discuss the latest Latin American works.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on May 01, 2007, 08:40:54 AM
Hello "Admin"
You have done a great job! Congratulations.
I bought "Las peliculas" (book suggested to read in this froum) in a recent trip to Caracas. I'm reading... anybody else?
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: jayneg on May 02, 2007, 06:38:34 PM
I am reading Las Peliculas too.  Thoroughly enjoying the familiar Chile/California connections and the choice of movies so far.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: sergio on May 03, 2007, 04:20:44 AM
Saludos ha todos los participantes del Latin American Literature; no he podido conseguir el libro leen actualmente, espero conseguirlo pronto; ¿en cual editorial esta publicado?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: jayneg on May 03, 2007, 09:14:56 AM
My copy of Las peliculas is published by Rayo, part of HarperCollins publishers


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on May 08, 2007, 03:22:53 AM
I have Peliculas too and am slowly reading...about a third of the way through.  Excellent suggestion ! I'm enjoying it so far...and somehow I ordered two copies, so I sent one to someone I know in Nicaragua who has been wanting some new books to read...

could this be a blog by the same author ? http://laspeliculasdemivida.blogspot.com/ (http://laspeliculasdemivida.blogspot.com/) and I think Sergio that if you may wish to find an edition printed by "Alfaguara" http://loslibrosrobados.blogspot.com/2006/09/las-pelculas-de-mi-vida-de-alberto.html (http://loslibrosrobados.blogspot.com/2006/09/las-pelculas-de-mi-vida-de-alberto.html) because I think "Rayo" is the north american publisher ?

and I also found a copy of a new book entitled "words without borders" and it has short stories from all over the world, including some never before translated into English with work from Spain, Mexico and other latin american countries.  I'll be back to list some of the authors soon, if you like.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on May 09, 2007, 08:47:24 PM
Mine is Alfaguara.
I'm out of town (Without book :-) I'll be back this weekend and continue reading.
Glad to see you here S2B, Jayne and Sergio.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: jayneg on May 11, 2007, 11:17:54 PM
No time for reading right now.  Over halfway thru - but lots of family commitment right now.
End of school year - total madness.
Nonetheless, let's not let the momentum fade.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on May 31, 2007, 10:43:54 PM
??? who is this anyway  ;)

(http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/6152/2603624480059771939S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2603624480059771939mtQrtC)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on June 01, 2007, 01:44:12 PM
(http://www.ellaberinto.net/images/docs/saramago.jpg)

Hmmm...let me see


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on June 01, 2007, 08:37:50 PM
did you guess Saramago ?

guess again :)


Title: Las Peliculas
Post by: jayneg on June 02, 2007, 02:29:21 PM
Anyone else out there finished Las Peliculas?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: snyggokul on June 03, 2007, 01:58:26 AM
To anyone who has not yet had a chance to read Joaquim Maria Machado de Assis :

http://www.centerforbookculture.org/context/no12/Ghose.html (http://www.centerforbookculture.org/context/no12/Ghose.html)



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on June 03, 2007, 02:48:06 PM
did you guess Saramago ?

guess again :)

http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,2091801,00.html

 ::)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on June 05, 2007, 05:24:49 PM
ay...Beppo saw who it was, after close examination  ;)

jayneg...got distracted by some lit I needed to read before the end of the school year, though I will be back to Peliculas soon...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on June 07, 2007, 03:42:01 PM
What could they be saying?

(http://lamar.colostate.edu/~jcarlyon/d_borges.jpg)





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on June 09, 2007, 01:56:14 AM
"It often seems that I have only typical and common things to say..." - JD

well then,

"Don't talk unless you can improve the silence."  -JLB

not bad for actual quotes from the men themselves ;)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 20, 2007, 12:44:56 PM
S-2-B, :D,that´s Gabriel Garcia Marquez arriving at Aracataca (Macondo) on the "yellow train" with his wife on the 40th. anniversary of the first edition of  "Cien años de soledad".That is the first time he goes back to Aracataca.

I :)t´s great seeing so many of you here.

I am reading  Saramago´s Ensayo sobre la Ceguera.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on June 20, 2007, 01:17:41 PM
Martin!

So happy you are here, where's junior?  I am over in immigration being a nuisance.  Settle in. Much love and besas


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 20, 2007, 04:02:06 PM
MADUPONT, I don´t know where Bocajunior  is. My best enemy and co-patriot surely got lost when we were all  kicked out of the NYT.Being an Argie ,like me. I bet he´ll find his way in here back from exile.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on June 21, 2007, 03:22:04 AM
Martin, my Brother.  Praise the gods you are found.  And The Firey Pen is still singing Mozart and Greeks are buying lots of plates for weddings?  Is any of the new Argentinian political "darkness" I'm reading about affecting you or your family?  I, too, hope Boca finds his way here.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on June 21, 2007, 12:43:17 PM
M&M&D...glad you stopped by  :)

real life has interfered with my reading lately, though I am mid-way through "the movies of my life" by Fuguet and "Delirio" by Restrepo has found its way back to the next in line on the stack to read...didn't you read this a while ago MB3 ?

currently we're in the midst of relocation...to Singapore...and I'm gathering as many titles as I can find to bring along with me as I have no idea what it will be like sourcing LAL there...though I will be close enough to Australia to make a visit to the land of the Junior  ;)  and that International Bookstore near QVB in December...

"Movies" is easy enough to put down after reading each chapter, each 'vignette' which means I'm easily distracted...

keep in touch ! I'll be here as often as I can.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 22, 2007, 12:12:04 PM
Does any of you know where the rest are lurking? Who created this site? How did you all get here?

I don´t have Bocajuniors´mail so I don´t know how to contact him, I´ll try and get him through what´s left of the NYT forums.

He should be very happy our Boca Juniors Fútbol Club got The Cup.

You do know that in Arg. *fútbol* is soccer? Don´t you?

http://www.tea.edu/Archivos/DamePelota/bocareydecopas.jpg


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on June 22, 2007, 01:47:10 PM
Martin re:#22

Oh, they are all at the usual places(and I do mean all). Although several have popped in recently and then popped out again.  We came by word of mouth, through the grape-vine; and you are in a sense asking the same question about which I wanted an answer, so I therefore lurked, as donotremove says,and for the longest time, without getting a concrete answer, although -- because some of the pseudonyms have been altered to protect the characters, I have had insights that this may have been an original offshoot from a much earlier period of time when there was a definite rebellion against the idea of Meander being turned into a Lounge.

With the closing down of that hang-out, perhaps their liquor licence was revoked(?) because of two many owners owning too many places, you know, kind of like the Mafia has to find enough relatives to keep things in the syndicate as places to conduct business,

I was afraid that eventually that would happen without people having direct connects by e-mail,etc.  I mentioned that at one point that discouraging people from around the globe being in connection with each other during an age of globalization was tantamount to a mortal sin; of course the importance of the underlying implication was pooh-poohed. By one who didn't give a snap, oft said, what you thought about mortal sin or communications if it wasn't all about him. My how the mighty have fallen on their knees to complain about being there.

Others are happy as tartes and harangue artists overseas at the UK --although they all claim to have been here and they didn't say that they didn't like the place so maybe they get away with more over there?  There are a lot more of their kind where they came from which I imagine was the basic problem to begin with, why they colonized the world, but they are still complaining and want to take over France next. Sarkozy beat them to it.

Whisqe has not mentioned noticing boca around about what's left.  I continued around but in other nooks and crannies as well as writing for the overseas trade under a nom-de-plume (which reminds me, how is the Fiery Pen? the writing classes, the plummage,etc.); although he did say that he missed you guys (plural, I think?)

A number of people traipse over there for esoteric rituals, by the book, but as I'm in the dark, I have no word of the level of the eyes wide shut initiates; although I did eavesdrop once through a crack and was truly unimpressed, when I  had recalled Colburn's directions about how to drop down a rabbit hole and walk through the looking glass, by standing on a friend's shoulders. The usual people were pontificating and then she dropped me back to street level again because she is usually in a hurry to remain out of the country as much as possible.

That reminds me, I should hurry overseas, myself,to report to the Paris Bureau of Naught But Sightings (otherwise known as Non-BS).  But lately, I just hang out in the Immigration area here if I have anything to say which I usually do.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on June 22, 2007, 04:27:06 PM
Martin, the fellow with the ID LiquidSilver is the one who set this site up.  I don't know anything about him.  Some thought he was Mick Sussman (or a computer wise pal of his) but I personally haven't a clue.  Drat.  I wish we had some way to contact Bocajunior.

You can see who all is registered here (by their ID name) by clicking on "members" at the top of each page--you know, along with "home" and other choices.  The ID names are in alphabetical order.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on June 24, 2007, 09:35:48 AM
Howdy Martinbeck - Bocajuniors should know about this place as it was linked quite a few times on the NYT before it went down. If not and you would like to take a chance on alerting him you could fire a message up on to the NYT forum boards which is currently being held to ransom by Lifeline - it couldn't do any harm.

You said you were reading Saramago - me too. 'The Year of the Death of Ricardo Reis', the translation into English. I'm taking it slowly but I do like Saramago - his little wise asides. I was wondering if you got a chance to read that book by Bioy Casares on Borges?

BTW - its Jorge/Catto/PM here just in case you was wondering...good to see you  ;)

There are some posters who as yet have not been seen in these parts - maybe if an outbreak of reading happens they may drop in.

Liquidsilver as yet has no bank account for the "fees". Perhaps you should send him some from your one in the Caymens - maybe buy you some posts - shift you forward from the most honourable "Junior Member" status... ;D

     


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on June 26, 2007, 12:17:14 PM
Thanks everybody for yor warm welcome.I´d love to know how you can place a picture below your profile.In case anyone wonders what I look like,I look like Russell Crowe in Master of Land and Sea (so says my aunt Ely and sundry ladies)

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0311113/Ss/0311113/MC-37R.jpg.html?path=gallery&path_key=0311113

Well, back to this:

Catto,Jorge,Beppo:great to see you here,too.The book you  mention is a recollection of the conversations JLB had with Bioy over the years and Bioy faithfully registered in a sort of diary that was now published. I can´t remember the exact name,nor can my librarian(!) -over the telephone- and he´s the *good one*.

Don and Madupont:thanks for asking about the fiery Pen.She´s fine now singing with a professor. :-\ live and learn.The extended family is going through a crisis-after the summer holidays- Sebastian,the oldest divorced sweet Carolina and has got another one.The FP says she´ll never meet her.Meanwhile he´s living in our *exteded loft* in a sort of tent the FP has put up for privacy and his two kids (Tomy and Fran 3 and 4) spend every other weekend with him here and every Friday nite.So now our calm and cool  loft looks like a gypsy tent.Thank goodness business is great and new politicians -a new breed of them- have won the last electio.Kirchner trembles.   

I hope Mick is around in any shape.I like him very much and I was  sure he must have fought bravely for us against the Philistines.I also suspect Admin could be him,too.

S-2-B, where are you going to? Sing-a-pore.My goodness!!! and I wouldn´t go live in Chile just across the Cordillera de los Andes! 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on July 02, 2007, 05:36:22 PM
Martinbeck

I've checked out the book on Amazon - it's very long and looks like a great read but as yet no translation into English by the looks of things.

Been thinking about Bocajuniors - in the end he may just have decided that the time differences between Australia and the Americas were such that it wasn't possible to keep turning on to the forums just as most people were preparing to switch off. I'm minimum five hours ahead (or nineteen behind) and it can be difficult to keep motivated when there's only a small window for 'live' communication. I suppose it's even more obvious here since you get to see who is logged in at the same time. To be up and energetic and to see your name down there as the sole poster might be difficult to take.

I don't know - maybe this is all bullshit and he's sunning himself on Bondi.

 

 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 03, 2007, 11:53:18 AM
BOCAJUNIORS: BOLBÉ TODO STÁ PERDONADO



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 03, 2007, 12:06:51 PM
BEPPO, if the above line from Borges ;) doesn´t bring Boca back nothing will.(*)

As you know I am reading Saramago´s "Ensayo sobre la ceguera".I´m not saying anything knew but it´s a page turner.It´s written without any "full stop, into the next line" (like my English teachers used to say) but the trick works very well because it reflects in the way one reads it,like you can´t stop until you get to the next chapter,then and only then,you can catch your breath.

I am wondering how he will end the story.I just can´t imagine how S. will get out of this plot he´s got himself into.

Both Saramago and Borges say blindness is not black but white,like a cloud over the eyes. I wonder if it´s black when they go to sleep.

SUNDRY LURKERS:
yes, I know Saramago is Portuguese but he was adopted at the LatAmLit forum some two years ago.Apparently his great grandfather on his cousin´s side had been born in Brazil and taken as a baby back to Lisboa.

ANYBODY remembers Myriam, the Lit Prof from Israel who wrote great posts on Saramago 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 03, 2007, 12:09:51 PM
google translation of the JLB quote for BOCA:

"Boca get thee back,everything is forgiven"

This was a typical ad in the papers when I was a kid and people that disappeared did so because there had been a family brawl. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 03, 2007, 12:28:38 PM
BEPPO,I am waiting for the Conversations with JLB by Bioy which I´ve ordered by mail. Pretty expensive for us Argies U$A 30 but I bet worth every buck.

SUNDRY LURKERS,
Saturday night I visited the Victoria Ocampo house -close to my humble abode-. This is a gorgeous huge old house (her parents´) which she had donated to the UN or some other such org. and they never took care and it was falling to pieces. It now belongs to an Arg. org. and it was recycled fabulously well.

The FP dragged me there to listen to some singers playing Modern Classical Songs written by them,the ordeal!!! I couldn´t make out neither what they were singing nor the music it was like a kid playing with the keyboard. 

I suppose I should take this claim to the Music dep. in this fora (notice the fluent use of Latin).

This woman Victoria Ocampo was the founder of the Sur editorial house who were the first to notice Borges.She was one of the most important intellectuals of her day and a personal friend of both Borges and Bioy ,who married her sister the poet and writer Sivina Ocampo.

see The House:

http://www.villaocampo.org/ing/historico/villaocampo_1.htm
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on July 03, 2007, 05:30:32 PM
Martinbeck

You mentioned the word 'disappeared': I was thinking of that link nnyhav pasted in not long before the NYT closed:

http://www.slate.com/id/2159221/

What do you think?

Have you read any Sabato?

Madupont mentioned a film a little while ago called 'Imagining Argentina' - have you seen it?

(Apologies in advance for all the questions)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on July 03, 2007, 11:14:55 PM
Martinbeck

You mentioned the word 'disappeared': I was thinking of that link nnyhav pasted in not long before the NYT closed:

http://www.slate.com/id/2159221/

What do you think?

Have you read any Sabato?

Madupont mentioned a film a little while ago called 'Imagining Argentina' - have you seen it?

(Apologies in advance for all the questions)

Beppo, I know you're asking mb3 but since my handle's invoked ... apologies in advance for all the answers.

As much as I like Clive James I think he overstates the case. Worse than that, he imposes his own imputations of motive and a sanitized version of the circumstances (Dirty war). Fascists and communists are always best enemies -- they need each other as excuse for excess (not calling anybody here either one, but btw, you got a rather ambiguous handle in these parts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beppo ).

mb3 put me on to On Heroes and Tombs. I haven't been able to find The Tunnel in English (except Gass).

As for the movie, try the Lawrence Thornton book of the same title instead. Or as well.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 05, 2007, 12:25:18 AM
martinbeck3, re:#31

Reading about your weekend activity, I was beginning to get blown away. Victoria Ocampo, interesting woman, I think I'm going to have to hold on to your most interesting web-site and start researching all the connections. I'd read a little and bells would go off, all those contacts culturally. She reminds me of Vita Sackville-West (I'm wondering if I can lift a picture...) who was the grand-daughter of Josefa de la Oliva (née Durán y Ortega, known as Pepita).

Nope, could not lift the picture. Will have to leave the link and you can look at it for yourself all you wish--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vita_Sackville-West

As you will note, Vita was also a Victoria, as was her mother.

You note the strong Spanish profile. Both Victorias, and my great-aunt were from the same generation(I almost wrote the "dame" generation).

Oh, by the way, before I forget, look closely at her grandmother's name, Josefa de la Oliva, which is just the feminine of Joseph (my grandmother was a Josefine, diminutive was Fini or Fine), and Beppo is of course the male diminutive of Jose or Joseph.

Where it got interesting was when Victoria  Ocampo's mother was described as La Murena. My mother's variation of that name, for the very same reasons given in the description, was        .  Most of her school friends not understanding the derivation of the name, thought of the closest approximation of some celebrity that they knew with a name that sounded like that(      ) and, as a result , my mother's diminutive (because of notes that young women left for each other in nursing -school) became Rene -- but pronounced Rini or Re Ne which rhymed with what everybody had called her.

From then on in reading through these articles, I kept hitting those things which our lives had shared in common.  For instance, I know why she built the house at Mar de Plata. It's the very essence of the modern international style (but, also at the same time, the antique original Mediterranean house ) with straight clean lines. Ocampo had a tendency toward that, no clutter. All you have to do is look at those pictures of the exterior of the Villa  Ocampo and you can see why, she had to have something different after awhile, some alternative, you can not continue to live in the past.   Martin, believe it or not, knock out the balustrades, which apparently somebody did, and in your mind's eye remove that balcony level, of this French-Victorian relic, and I went to school in a building exactly like that! Probably built in the exact same period of time. They called it Ste.Colette's Hall. I hated every minute of it.

However, I must say that the photos of her interiors are really exciting, she strips them down as much as possible to the bare essentials but comfortable. There are only two other household interiors that I know of that have this sparse straight-edged quality: the house of Pierre duPont, at Longwood which had once been a Quaker farm-house but which he radically changed to a Latin house with a prominent glassed in courtyard or solarium rising to the second floor level just beneath the windows. This way he could bring back to Pennsylvania selections of tropical plants he found in Florida, plunk them down in the solarium, shove the furniture in between them so you could sit around among the plants awaiting something as if in a lobby reading your paper. He soon covered the glass exterior with wisteria "Uncle" Eleuthere had brought from France in the earlier part of the century and it twisted upward to shade the tropicals in summer, bursting into purple clusters each May, by winter it withdrew again  to let in the sun for the plants under glass.

His furnishings were, however, sparse just like Victoria's, he'd withdraw to his office beyond the courtyard, lay out his slide-rule for planning his Conservatory and fountains, and his account books because he had been the family accountant ever since he was 18 years old and was weary of it. He felt like a traveling salesman, having to make the rounds of the company towns, checking the books; he just wanted to stay at home collecting plants and, like Victoria,  having visitors who were usually the entertainment for other guests while having galas on the grass-lawns as his collection expanded.

More than once in national security forum at the old hang-out nytimes.com, a musician showed up from the Lincoln Center area of Manhattan who told me all about his debut  at Longwood and presented me with a bunch of links that nobody at Longwood can locate anymore. They told the history of all the interesting visitors who showed up as they did at Villa Ocampo, just as this web-site that you supplied, with pictures from another era.     

The other person who lived in a similar manner to Victoria Ocampo was Dr. Barnes. He made a fortune by inventing something called, "Argyrol"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnes_Foundation

He handed a large sum of money to a trusted friend who was going to Europe and told him to buy as much of the new modern art as possible in Paris. Barnes then hung it within the rooms of the house in a way that dismayed many who did not understand what he was doing which was meant to make obvious the relationships within works of art. He then opened the house to the Negro children of Philadelphia to be taught about art and have the opportunity to produce it.  I thought you should know that so in reading about the legal battles that have ensued about the transfer of the legacy to the Philadelphia Museum of Art, you would more readily understand how that  specifically precludes the program that has benefited children who would otherwise not receive this education.

I was interested that Victoria Ocampo also went to visit Peggy Guggenheim and give a series of lectures, I ponder whether on Art or Literature since Peggy was one of the great collectors (and later gallery owner) once again of the "new modern art'' but, instead of the French Impressionists of the Barnes Foundation, she took a personal interest in Jackson Pollack, the next generation. The Guggenheims kept their summer home at the Jersey Shore, it was a much subtler version than Villa Ocampo,a style to which Peggy's father, Samuel, was overly used to and from which they needed to break away.

Victoria obviously had a lot of friends. Her visit to Mussolini is so typical and drove her in the other direction by the time of the Condor. I  have no doubt that her publishing of many of the world's most avant-garde writers which began at the former period helped shake up  her discernment. "Fascists and communists are always best enemies...", as nnyhav mentioned, I'd go so far as to wonder if there is ever anything else when people pretend to be bland, middle of the roaders. For every Henry Miller, there's a T.S. Eliot (in Ocampo's, Sur ; I looked at that title and it reminded me of Big Sur, where Henry Miller lived for nearly forty years, moving to Pacific Palisades at the end of his life.) In other words, like Victoria Ocampo, everyone is a combination of these two antipodes politically, in different proportions at differing times.

The reason that I brought up "Imagining Argentina" which I've seen at least twice and the second time was earlier this Spring when it was done back to  back by HBO with, "Operation Condor". Most people mistake this title with the Robert Redford, Day of the Condor.  It isn't. Operation Condor was a program designed by GHW Bush to provide training to military police in South America for open border sweeps so there would be no impediment to the pursuit of refugees from  political terrorism; this is a documentary which recounts everything in detail. They,military police, were able to come here for refinements in training at Fort Benning, Georgia, over seen by the now retired statesman Negroponte. The same techniques finally came to light in the latest war, both in Iraq and at Guantanamo.

The most telling anecdote in the film has to do with a photograph of GHW Bush talking with Mayor Ed Koch of Manhattan. The senior Bush tells Ed, warns him that there have been a series of assassinations using explosives under car and that Ed might be in danger.

(by the time that the story is finished, you have to wonder what was old man Bush's intent? Because Ed,nonchalantly in his jolly old elf mannerism smiles up at George and suggests, of course you will provide me with CIA protection. To which Bush replies, Sorry, no, the CIA provides intelligence, you'll have to provide your own protection.  Koch was rattled to say the least.)

more about the other half of the film duo, to be continued.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 05, 2007, 01:54:03 AM
continuation to martinbeck3

http://www.amazon.com/Imagining-Argentina-Lawrence-Thornton/dp/0553345796/ref=sr_1_3/002-5779211-1532832?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183610252&sr=1-3

or, tiny-url:

http://tinyurl.com/28seuo


I realize that you have, martin, only so much patience for Antonio Banderas, we already discussed one of his
ventures into the film version of a story by Isabel Allende, so now another one comes along written by Thornton --in which he is a playwright and director of a small theatre whose journalist wife, Emma Thompson "disappears".     

If you must, therefore, think of it as a movie starring Emma Thompson. I also have only so much  patience and was willing to accept him as the assassin of Trotsky, with my younger sister saying such things as, "Is it really true, that Frida Kahlo was the lover of Trotsky?"  I mean, she was dumb-founded. Thereupon her education commenced, her daughter, my niece, often liked to go and visit Kahlo's Casa Azul. Since, then, "Mom," my sister, hangs out with the Bolivian Circle, and Hugo Chavez sends aid to our  home town. What a world.

About that playwright,however, in Argentina.  I was hunting up a little known poet, in our time,hoping for samples of his work, as he is still alive teaching somewhere, as far as I tracked down. As it turned out, F.D. Reeve is the father of deceased actor (and activist) Christopher Reeve. Dig this:

" In 1987, he led a public rally in support of 77 Chilean actors, directors, and playwrights who had been sentenced to death by the dictator Pinochet for criticizing his regime in their works. Pinochet canceled the sentence after the ensuing media coverage, and Reeve was awarded with three national distinctions from Chile for his actions."  How did he do it?

The last time that I saw Christopher Reeve, he was in his jump suit heading for the men's room in a laundromat across from the Rocky Hill airfield.  The description I read, before it got edited out of this version of wikipedia, said that Reeve hopped into his plane at the airfield and flew down to Chili, where he hopped out of his plane just like Superman and led the protest march with banners flying, What the hey could Pinochet do about it? Everybody knows Superman.  Reeve was just that way.

Here's the other description from this  reworked article:

In the fall of 1987, 77 actors in Santiago, Chile were threatened with execution by the dictator Pinochet. Reeve was asked by Ariel Dorfman to help save their lives. Reeve flew to Chile and helped lead a protest march. A cartoon then ran in a newspaper showing him carrying Pinochet by the collar with the caption, "Where will you take him, Superman?" For his heroics, he was awarded the Grand Cross of the Bernardo O’Higgins Order, the highest Chilean distinction for foreigners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Reeve


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on July 06, 2007, 08:41:39 AM
Hey nnyhav, thanks a lot - nice to see you. I'm more aware of Clive James as a TV presenter than anything else - I'm aware he writes poetry and has a few books in circulation. I was tempted to buy his latest because I quite like the sweep of the essays especially seeing who he was writing about. I don't know if you've read it but from the link at Slate he looks to be laying into a few people.

As for the handle - I knew there was something nasty about the name but couldn't recall until it was too late. Now that you've mentioned it I may need to draw another from my big bag of monikers. IdleJack comes to mind.

We never did get round to furthering our various threads on Borges e.g the compass in Tlön. Hope in some way it can continue here.



 



Title: SNOW IN BUENOS AIRES
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 10, 2007, 09:40:26 AM
HI! Later I´ll post properly but look at this:

another proof of magic realism being real in LatAm:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X33t6SqZT9w



Title: Re: SNOW IN BUENOS AIRES
Post by: nnyhav on July 10, 2007, 10:31:49 AM
another proof of magic realism being real in LatAm

Hey, that Live Earth thang rilly worked! But now we need a new tango, right?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2053468.ece


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: snyggokul on July 10, 2007, 10:39:45 PM
Hey, martinbeck,

Nice film and music in the youtube. The only thing I really did NOT like about it was to see that poor black dog in a chain, under snow & without a sweater.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 11, 2007, 01:17:07 PM
Let´s see:one at a time -I feel honored in the forumites interest in my country-.

SNYGGOKUL: poor animal! you´re rite! surely there was no time to knit him a woolen sweater.To ease your worries, I think that at the end he is loose and walking around with the guys.


NNYHAV(master the linkmeister!) It had to be you finding that tango I´d never heard of.

ANYBODY PLAYS THE PIANO?:

http://www.elmurocultural.com/Tango/Vaccaro/vaccaro01.html#


BEPPO: the Slate article is right Borges was totally deaf to what went on around him both in Argentina and in Chile.

As an excuse for this a professor once told me that JLB admired the "militares" because he was tied to his family´s tradition, a family that had had many Independency Wars heroes,but in the XIX cent ! .He lived in the past and  hated Peron, who had persecuted him (named him Inspector of Poultry!).

It should also be said that many of the desaparecidos had belonged to the Montoneros and ERP groups which had terrorized B.A.during Isabel Peron´s admisnistration.Isabel had asked the militares to "annihilate the terrorists".Then the militares led a coup against her and went further in their "annihilation",beyond anybody´s imagination.

The reviews for Imagining Arg. were terrible and  I´m sick n´tired of Banderas pouting on screen.Emma Thompson is great.You´re right Madupont.


NNYHAV, did you read Sabato ? On Heroes and Tombs is fantastic.THE Arg.novel. 

Did I tell you that there is a Borges short -very very short story- telling the same story ,excusing the redundancies.I´ll look it up later a I´m supposed to be working hard.   





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 11, 2007, 01:25:59 PM
MADUPONT (Our Lady of the Perpetual Knowledge)

My answer to your posts deserves some profound thinking  :) so I´ll get on to it as soon as I´m freed from "the mill with slaves".

EVERYBODY: funny I picked that quotation "eyeless in Gaza..." as both JLB and Sabato (the latter only at the end of his life) were blind and I´m reading Saramgo´s "Ensayo sobre la ceguera" -that by now has become quite repetitive- a short story would have done better unless the end justifies it.We´ll see .
"Que coraje criticar a Saramago!" (needs no translation).

MYRIAM FROM ISRAEL: WHERE ART THOU?

Does anybody know?



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on July 11, 2007, 03:58:20 PM
Martin, what do you think about Christine running for president?  You think hubby will be running things anyway?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 12, 2007, 11:47:52 AM
DONOTREMOVE, I think Cristina Kirchner is just bidding time for her husband´s second election,so that they will perpetuate themselves in power just like a royal family. 

Cristina was picked by her husband as head of their party -a branch of the of the peronista party-there were no free party elections like you have in US ,like now between Obama and Hillary.

The country is doing more or less well but not thanks to Mr.K. but to the international situation.You know, the Chinese wanting more food etc.

We are running short in electricity and fuel as the price has been static since 2000 and inflation has not so now large factories and company buildings have electicity cuts for 8 hours or more. No one is going to invest if they can´t decide on their costs and prices,obviously.

I think that the people are slowly waking from their peronista dream.I hope the the presidential elections in 4 years time will bring a change.I have no hopes for the October elections.       


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 12, 2007, 11:51:12 AM
BTW, if anyone looks for a real good film on the infamous years see "La historia oficial":

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089276/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 12, 2007, 05:27:22 PM
MADUPONT:

Look at this:

http://www.ilab.org/db/detail.php?booknr=334467183&source=vialibri&lang=en

Victoria Ocampo was a friend of Vita Sackville-West and Virginia Woolf.

My grandmother was called Josefina and everybody called her Pepita.She was a darling. Died when she was 99, but really 100 because she always pretended to be a year younger.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 12, 2007, 11:16:57 PM
Glad you caught it. I noticed the picture of Virginia, among Ocampo's guests;but, I also noticed that Victoria O.'s style began to strongly resemble Vita's at a certain period of time. (and what was Virginia doing there?)  Vita often dressed in striking outfits inspired by her Grandmother, she knew that she was made to wear that black sombrero,well, let's face it, she dressed like a gaucho.

When Vita was attending some evening invitation to a society function, she would cool it and look as feminine as Victoria Ocampo in her formative years, except that Vita prefered her feminine wardrobe to be at least flamboyant.  It was when she sat down to write, expecially in later years, when they took a place called Sissinghurst that she and Harold went in for their usual hobby of planning the garden but, she also had a tower into which she would climb for the privacy of writing and almost always masculinely attired. For an example of how this plays out in her writing, take a look at Orlando. And, I mean, take a look: at the film with Tilda Swinton prior to trying to make sense of the writing as one of those projects for another time, as you have enough on your plate as is.  But a movie is a movie and this one is an exception. It even has the great Quentin Crisp in one of his last roles, as Queen Elizabeth I

You will never be able to take an English person, of either sex, seriously again, after this philosophical eye-opener that is also food for thought.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on July 13, 2007, 08:38:25 AM
nnyhav - regarding a new tango, I'd say yes sirreee!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 13, 2007, 11:26:18 AM
THANKS A MILLION READER!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 13, 2007, 11:27:16 AM
MADUPONT,Victoria Ocampo was the owner of an editorial house and magazine Sur so it´s no surprise that she would be in contact with Virginia Woolf.Victoria was a feminist and she "drove a car with her sleeves rolled up!".Her sister Silvina who married Bioy Casares was a lesbian and her lover was a younger Argie poet(ess) whose name I can´t remember. I think all the Ocampo group -Borges included- could be the Argie version of the Bloomsbury group: well to do, intelligent,not forced to work,book worms.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 13, 2007, 12:05:40 PM
Really cannot locate the Boca over at the nytimes.com unless you are referring to the literary vote?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on July 14, 2007, 05:25:34 AM
Soccer ?! missed the semi final between Mexico and Argentina while en-route back to the northland from 1deg50min (Singapore)

I have in my hands a copy of the a book by Rudolfo Anaya entitled "Curse of the ChupaCabra" which is YA fiction, however, I have yet to read it as I am still reeling from jetlag...it seems it was written in English ?

yes MB3, Singapore for a couple of years...and while on a visit there I went to the National Library and two very large bookstores and did not find even one untranslated title in Spanish  >:(  though the library had plenty GGM on the shelves in English

so it will be a lonely literary time, unless I can stock up before I go or as I mentioned, head south to the International Bookstore in Boca's stomping grounds there...

I will catch up with the meanderings here when I get into synch again...though just to mention I used to have Myriam's email address somewhere, I can't find it now  :(  and I have a copy of the book "Imagining Argentina" which I've had for years...I think there was a follow up title I think I have entitled "Naming the Spirits" while not as powerful is certainaly evocative...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on July 14, 2007, 06:37:24 AM
Trivia:

Borges dedicated Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote to Silvina Ocampo and The Garden of Forking Paths to Victoria Ocampo.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 15, 2007, 12:18:16 PM
BEPPO AND SUNDRY LURKERS:

Don´t forget that JLB behind all those "artist in an ivory tower" air was quite a lady´s man.I think all the dedications were a way of saying thank you to them.Like sending 24 roses.many were married.

Silvina was a lesbian though and Bioy was The Ladies Man,a friend of my aunt had an affair with him when he was in her 40´s and she in her 20´s.

I remember the name of the Argentine poet(ess) that was Silvina´s lover:
Alejandra Pizarnik(I´m not into poetry ).Critics say she was broke off.

http://www.ggbb.org/about/broads/alejandra.html

Silvina was quite ugly,she had a mind but no beauty with that huge nose.Not like Victoria.Silvina when older got into the habit of rubbing her face away with acid from her pictures.The Fiery Pen remembers her from her childhood summers in Mar del Plata as the Bioys had a tent close to her family´s.The FP says she was " as ugly as a witch but thin and tall", the latter makes up for her,usually in the FP´s language anybody who is "thin and tall" can get away with crime.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 15, 2007, 12:34:35 PM
NNYHAV & BEPPO
I HAD THIS BLINDING VISION AND SUDDENLY:

my mind was properly illuminated with the following tango

"The snow in B.A. falls mainly in the plains(*)

...and so on.How creative of I, how inspirational!

(*) plains= pampas

Nobody can doubt that even though I don´t like poetry I have this amazing gift for tango lyrics !!!!

BOCA, if thee,my co-patriot art around watching us from webheaven:
this 1 is for thee:

"No llores hermano ,no llores
no llores que Olga no viene
mientras sigan aullando los lobos
mientras siga callendo (sp.cayendo?) la nieve"

"No llores hermano ,no llores,
que B.A. está cubierto de nieve
mientras sigan aullando los gatos
mientras en el Chocon(*) no llueve"
(*) Chocon= the electical plant down in Patagonia

Nobody can translate such versifying,it should be left undtouched by vile hands.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 15, 2007, 12:37:12 PM
READER please , what´s Negev?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 15, 2007, 01:33:48 PM
Found NEGEV is not a thing nor the short for Negative Empire and Governmental War on Violence  but a writer whose work is being read at the Lunatic Asylum there-to-fore I posted Boca over there .I told him about today´s football match Argentina-Brazil in the Final for the American Cup.If that doesn´t bring him back to life nothing will.He´s totally depressed in his mittle-european genes and won´t get up at 6 am. aussie time to watch it.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 15, 2007, 06:30:03 PM
The Negev is a desert.

(a one line poem by madupont)  I have been writing today about deserts and desert customs, as I did yesterday including  about killer-ladies instead of lady-killers who have lived there.
 
S2B
That was the worst part about the scenes played by Banderas, for:
Imagining Argentina.  He was quite believable in other areas such as discovering the Germans who live as if in a bird sanctuary.  But he must have made a concession in his mind as to how he was to convey "contacting the spirits".  I think that he told himself,well,I run a theater, it is like acting if I tell these people one by one what I sense has happened to their loved ones who have disappeared.

Disturbingly enough he often did experience scenes shot in the film as harrowing hallucinations, such as watching his wife be pushed over the edge of a building and falling many floors to the ground and actually walking up to her body.  So he is in a crazed state when  he starts tracing where she could have been taken, laughing at an owl who leads him to where she has been, as he's learned that much from the Germans who explain the significance of all the birds who visit their house and walk the lawns. This goes on until he recognizes his wife quite by accident at a fiesta and the family is reunited.

Technically, for his little concession, it is a seance but the religious aspects of  psychologically  envisioning the dead (or, not),he realizes is comforting to all these women who attend, the majority are women, in what appears to be part of a church because his theatre has been busted up and boarded up by the authorities. So, at most what Banderas tries to effect is something that falls more on the side of the professiona; theatrical charlatan who Reads Minds at random for the audience. He throws his head into his hands, stretched fingers apart, like a table tapper about to make a table float into the air by getting everybody to concentrate and touch hands around the table.  It is performance art.

Thus, as a film, it is very uneven in interpretation as compared to a book, although there are times where I have read some unusual views right here in river city when a forum works by opinion, not this forum of course, I am speaking of novels, poems,plays in English that somehow go awry in this venue or that.

Nevertheless the good of the book is there, when the film has introduced viewers inadvertently to something unknown to them politically. That fact is likewise encountered and not a day goes by without a wrangle about what's best for the world.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on July 16, 2007, 11:17:17 AM
martinbeck

Just got a chance to watch the youtube video. That's a long time to wait for some snowfall - 90 years!



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on July 16, 2007, 07:03:14 PM
Picked up today from the library, Cultural Amnesia by Clive James.

The essay on Sabato says some interesting things about the Tango. "No two tangos are the same," states the author, no doubt echoing the sentiments of many a noble dockside city gaucho. James is a big fan of the Tango and it comes through when reading the Sabato essay but the text is fuelled by a quote from Sabato which for me in a way - and these things are easy to think in retrospect - says more about the Tango in a few pages than anything I've read beyond The History of the Tango by Borges. James criticizes Borges for laying wreaths on a subject that was in his opinion still evolving and when you discover that James dances the Tango it comes as no surprise. It also turns out that the Tango is the national dance of Finland.

   



   



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on July 17, 2007, 03:35:54 AM
Clive James is a good man, he said very nice things about Argentina some long years ago ina documentary, and to say nice things about Argentina you need to be a very good friend and a very generous soul, and Clive is both. He's also a very good tango dancer, allthough he's a bastard in a few other matters.

That Finland has the Tango as its national dance only proves the song about Finland Monty Python used to sing and which they included in a casette for sale, was right, Finland IS a boring non-eventfull place, but in a nice sort of way, that's if you like glass a lot. The Finns also drink a lot, and Finish girls used to climb the gangway of Argentine merchant ships in order to get free bottles of cheap Argentine made hospital grade spirit in exchange for some particular favours greatly in demand among merchant seamen in those days and probably today and tomorrow too.

As ussual, I don't have anything relevant to say, except a few words about the meaning of life, but that after I go to the toilet. Excuse me.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on July 17, 2007, 03:43:50 AM
Hola elportenito!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on July 17, 2007, 03:59:39 AM
and "who" in the old currency are you, beppo?......strange that my grandfather used to call me "Bepo" whe a I was a wee bairn, or thereabouts.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on July 17, 2007, 07:42:29 AM
madupont: Imagining Argentina more than a film is a childish insult to our sufferings during those years of fascist American sponssored dictatorship.

It doesn't work like that in real life, you have nightmares, yes, but they're just that, nightmares. No bloody communication with any dead, The dead, unfortunately, are dead forever. Nothing will bring them back, and nobody can "talk" to them, not even once, not even a word.

What is lost is lost, that's why a crime against humanity is A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, and nothing can diminish its terrible impact, there are no ifs and maybes.

Banderas should have shown some moral fibre of sorts, some ethics, the same goes for Emma Thompson,and both should have at least questioned the script or outright reffuse the roll. But they are just your a average air-headed self-centered narcisistic stars, mersenaries by other means.

May they enjoy the money they've got for their "job".

Emma Thompson  dressing as a man to escape her inprissonment. Please!!, that would be acceptable in a El Zorro movie which is pure pasatist entertainment and even a bit of comedy. But this bloody Hollywood oportunistic concoction was pure celluloid vomit on the whole of the Argentine people. Other countries who's citizens went through similar experiences would have voiced a strong protest. We Argentines are not that  good at lobbying.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on July 17, 2007, 07:54:25 AM
madupont: But you know madupont, we're living in a new era, of horrors which were unimaginable then, when Argentina was being physicaly and intelectualy disembowelled. Today's horrors are supported by a whole new propagandistic scaffolding that makes "irony" the poisson of the soul. Noothing realy matters anymore. Nothing deserves the time, we've been taught how to think like the rulers do, so that in ressembling them more every day we no longer see the horro they're causing, and the worst horror is semantic, our language is being dismantled of meaning, and new meanings are given to the same words, there is an accepted liturgy of the horror and the media is the new preacher of the gospell. As with blasphemy before, today too, we know we can say everything but that, and the price to be paid is the same, burning at the stake.

So that never before we were as un-free as we are today. If our own life has been commodiffied, what hope of freedom is left for us commodities?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 17, 2007, 12:46:27 PM
ELPORTEÑITO,welcome! good to have a co-patriot around.

EVERYBODY, I´ve tried my best over at the Lunatic Asylum Forum to bring Boca over here short of typing clearly this URL but my worst nightmare is that He Who Can´t be Named hacks this one to.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on July 17, 2007, 12:58:41 PM
Martin, are you saying that Elportenito is NOT Bocajuniors?  Over in the reader's monthly pick in the NYT, Boca posted to me that he had signed up over here and was using his old ID name of Elportenito.  I say it IS he.  Back in the fold at last.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 17, 2007, 01:06:22 PM
PORTEÑITO is BOCA lo and behold,the Blooming Lampost works in mysterious ways :o. :o :o !!!!!!!!!!

I went to the LatAm lit forum and THAT Porteñito didn´t sound like Boca.Then I came here,read his posts and Yes He was Boca!

Thanks Don.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 17, 2007, 01:12:07 PM
BOCA BEST-ENEMY & CO-PATRIOT

Glory unto the old K/SF.So you got what I meant.

Here is a welcome present I know only you will truly and heartily appreciate

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUtFOHPS2D0

dropped a tear or two?

Beppo is The Laird of the HI!-Lands.El escocés.Got it?





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 17, 2007, 09:32:43 PM
Martinbeck3

http://www.cafonline.com/index.php


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 17, 2007, 09:36:04 PM
el portenito, re:#66

"Emma Thompson  dressing as a man to escape her inprissonment. Please!!, "

I see, you saw the movie. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 17, 2007, 09:40:56 PM
martinbeck3

Your friend (or perhaps 'compatriot' is better) Boca appeared over at the NYT in the Vote thread this morning.  Perhaps he may be convinced to make the journey over here.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 17, 2007, 09:44:02 PM
 Re: Latin American Literature
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2007, 12:05:40 PM » Quote Modify Remove 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really cannot locate the Boca over at the nytimes.com unless you are referring to the literary vote?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on July 18, 2007, 01:05:19 AM
It's moot now, Maddy.  Boca WAS briefly over at the NYT reader's pick.  He's over here now as Elportenito.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on July 18, 2007, 01:16:06 AM
martinbeck3: can you please expalin this to me, is the heading of an article in today's Clarin:


"River acordó la venta de Carrizo a la Lazio

Los dirigentes decidieron transferir al arquero a cambio de diez millones de dólares, de los cuales siete y medio quedarán limpios para el club. Ahora, Passarella deberá buscar un reemplazante para el arco: ya suena el nombre de Justo Villar, de Newell's"



What!!!?????....Amadeo Carrizo kept playing for all these last 27 years for River Plate and I didn't know it?....amazing what a good diet can do!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 18, 2007, 08:28:19 PM
We have to believe that our name is our destiny.This is Juan Pablo Carrizo who was the arquero suplente at the Copa America.Well, he got sold right away to the Lazio.

That is why we end up having extraordinary players that have hardly had a chance to play together before they face a world cup.No wonder we lose.

I think we might follow this discussion over at the Other Sports forum.

There was a play called "El centro forward murio al amanecer"(*), right?

(*)" The centerforward died at the break of day".

That would be the literary note.

Apparently so:

http://www.fernandobarletta.com.ar/photo.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 19, 2007, 04:04:22 PM
martinbeck3

Are you absolutely sure, el alvoral  isn't Gus VanSant?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 19, 2007, 04:48:07 PM
MADUPONT,what is el alvoral?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 19, 2007, 05:22:20 PM
BOCA, sad news.The Negro Fontanarrosa has died this afternoon.In Rosario total strangers embrace each other.What a writer!What humor!What drawings!

http://www.negrofontanarrosa.com/main.htm




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 19, 2007, 05:28:31 PM
Some Fontanarrosa (sorry no translation)

http://www.foros.net/viewtopic.php?p=33331&mforum=ntvgnec


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 19, 2007, 05:38:01 PM
A short Fontanarrosa biography in Enlgish.

http://lambiek.net/artists/f/fontanarrosa_r.htm


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on July 20, 2007, 08:16:07 AM
El Negro Fontanarrosa  is a great Argentine cartoonist and will keep being one per secula seculorum. Amen.

then, being human, he died. But that is something ordinary that happens to all. But not ALL can come up with a figment of their imagination called Inodoro Pereira or Boogy El Aceitoso, that is the part that counts.

Dieing, anybody can die, no great merit in that.



Vale Negro!!!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on July 20, 2007, 08:18:24 AM
....pare,no auye, Mendieta, que me asusta a las gayinas!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on July 20, 2007, 08:19:34 AM
y, yes, I'm sad, Martin, and worse from far away.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 20, 2007, 09:49:05 AM
martin,
Theater Review | 'Un Hombre que se Ahoga': Chekhov Compacted, in Spanish


This Argentine adaptation of Chekhov?s ?Three Sisters? is arranged as efficiently as a businessman?s valise.


http://theater2.nytimes.com/2007/07/19/theater/reviews/19homb.html?ex=1342497600&en=3ceebde9f984b297&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Ah,shoot. no energy in the link. You will have to take a look in the Theatre section up top , and when you click to enter, once in the door just click back to previous because it was the prior review with snapshots from the show.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 20, 2007, 10:18:47 AM
NEGRO FONTANARROSA IN MEMORIAM:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8mkt2wte74

..."Morir es una costumbre
   Que sabe tener la gente"


Jorge Luis Borges
Milonga de Manuel Flores
Para las seis cuerdas


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 20, 2007, 10:39:00 AM
Madupont, the link opens beautifully.Thank you.

I don´t know if I´d have liked that Chekjov by Veronese,who is quite good.Chekjov and Ibsen are my favourite playwriters.

Chekjov is much admired hereabouts. I feel we Argie bourgeousie are quite chekjovian like the critic says "the grim feeling that life is happening beyond the tree line"," the stasis", probably because there is a parallel between our present social history and that of Chekjov in his day as shown in his work specially in The Cherry Orchard.

We have go down as a country from being the 8th. or so in the 30´s to our present one,something like 77th.or about.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 20, 2007, 10:50:08 AM
Ah, good, it did it after all, no problem. Do I sound like one of those computer techs from India? Good, no problem.

El Portenito were you in at the nytimes.com before they fired the cartoonist Rall?  He was the anti-war,anti-Bush cartoonist that they got pig in a poke and it took them awhile to catch on. He would do the Adventures of el Presidente Busho, in a high peaked general's hat who played with small airplanes while the rest manuevered behind in the sky destroying humanity in general. If you weren't tuned into that political, the drawings and concept made absolutely no sense to readers who had not ever thought that way; gradually they began to catch on however what the joke was, and they complained.  That was while people on the correspondent's roster was still feathering their careers by  giving detail descriptions of what a thorough investigative turn-over-every-stone war Bush was conducting and the public was lapping it up. After the word came down from the Board, the editor in chief fired the most successful writer who appeared to be in bed with Scooter Libby, Cheney's house-boy, and gradually the nice friendly neighborly ombudsman type of public editor was told to take a leaves of absence as he was on a temporary assignment at nytimes. anyway.

Eventually he was replaced by a man who pretended he did not know exactly why he was a guest of The New York Times but since the Wall Street Journal had sent him over he would "represent our interests". Not exactly.  Everytime I came in and screamed, he would delegate his sidekick to answer the mail  as the token  from the nytimes.com personnel office     who would have to do what he was told.  I would get a format reply and this went on for two and a half years.  I just want you to take a guess exactly when they bolted the door and I could not contact any of you. It was a very ironic date with history.

In the month following the editor in chief putting a full front page editorial on The New York Times in regard to Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Speech, things got very nasty in the forums, and the Public Editor sent over from the Wall Street Journal suddenly revealed what he was there for when he critiqued Bill Keller's editoria by putting in a good word for the president by inferring well, Bill when did you actually know what you knew and are telling us now, how come you waited so long, was it until after the 2004 elections. Thus putting the onus on Keller but but for a minute criticising the President or his administration.

I surveyed whatever was surfacing in the peoples'press because people were saying ugly things down in National Security Forum about Keller ought to be hanged, and Keller ought to be shot, and what I found out was a meeting was to be held on the following Monday kitty-corner from the Times building in a protest demonstration and if necessary they would enter the building to get Keller. I posted that the week before that was to occur. That evening I was told I was on probation anyway. "What do you mean,'probation',it is the first I've heard of that." The next day was a holiday which came and went as the usual 4th. of July, and the following morning I could not enter the forums. People thought this meant I could not post there. In actuality, it meant I could not even read that part of the nytimes. because it always stated, "No Access".

It was a good seven to eight months later, when Barack Obama first suggested that he might announce that he would run for the presidency, and I had been canvassing in the black community and getting hate mail from the  more hysterical white community while the black middle class in Washington D.C. was saying why he would not run, in their wisdom, and I lost my "page" one day, of where I was supposed to be picking up where I left off.  While doing a search, when my name came up, I found out what everybody had said about me to express themselves when I was no longer there.  Wow, what an insight.  I was defended however by one intelligent person who is probably wondering at this point why but that was the way it was.  Right down the street from there another on-line editor wanted to print my letter since he digests the news that is across the other periodicals with on-line editions or should go on line --because he had his own pissing contest going with the forums' person in charge(of us, or you, or them, or us....) I won't tell  you what happened after that because it is too long a story.

But just before I came over here, I sat in for a friend who had his electioneering work to do during the French Election; and wouldn't you know it, someone immediately walks in the figurative door to post on European Political elections and announces to the world from The Guardian Unlimited that madupont is here who was banned from the nytimes.com forums. My friend  came back in from the street and said firmly in his wonderfully accented English as only a Frenchman can speak up,"I invited madupont here while the election is on because I am very busy.", and they all shut up.

isabel_k , of course, would probably say Hi! to you but I think she lives in the States now. We never get any fun to be able to talk about real English literature around here since she deserted the flock and formed her own British rump group. You know, real Daphne de Maurier, real Edith Pendleton, real Somerset Maugham and not Christopher Hitchens!the Liberals' sell-out.  And we probably never will.

So what have you been doing in the meantime, reading the funnies while waiting the soccer game to resume. I shouldn't have said that; considering the only games I ever saw were by Bavarians.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 20, 2007, 10:57:37 AM
Well, my gosh, have you looked at our numbers lately?

(actually we only look at them to see if we won the lottery)

No, i know what you mean about the tree-line, I felt that way too sitting in my parents back yard entertaining a niece.  But there was no menace in the tree-line at the time. Then, by the time that both my parents were dead, I realized as I looked at the places they knew, "What was that all about anyway?" The niece is however quite emphatic. I am waiting to hear from her what is going on.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 20, 2007, 05:21:18 PM
MADUPONT,here on named Che Madupont.Persecuted by the press and all.You should feel honored.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 23, 2007, 10:33:12 AM
In Her Absence

Written by Antonio Muñoz Molina
Translated by Esther Allen 


See a larger image
 
 
Overview
"Part mystery, part comedy of manners...The Flaubert of Madame Bovary and the Henry James of The Turn of the Screw meet in the unresolved enigma of In Her Absence."
— LE POINT

During working hours, Mario is a dutiful bureaucrat, scrupulously earning his paycheck as an employee of the provincial Spanish town where he lives. But when he walks through the door of his apartment, he is transformed into the impassioned lover of Blanca, the beautiful, inscrutable wife he saved from the brink of personal crisis. For the love of Blanca, Mario eats sushi and carpaccio, nods in feigned understanding at experimental films, sits patiently through long conversations with her avant-garde friends, and conceals his disgust at shocking art exhibits.

Then, little by little, a strange and ominous threat begins to weigh on the marriage.

How can love survive its own disappearance? The desperate answer that Antonio Muñoz Molina proposes in this short, circular novella is a model of literary strategy and style, a splendid homage to Flaubert.

Paperback with Flap: $13.95

Fiction

126 pages, 5" x 7 3/4"

ISBN-13: 9781590512531
ISBN-10: 1-59051-253-7

Released: July 2007, In Stock

Other Press Books

 http://www.otherpress.com/bookpage.php?bkID=510
 
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 23, 2007, 01:48:07 PM
Maddie:I now undersand why you thought it was me who voted for that book.It feels like me.I do understand him so ! I suppose then he throttles her,rolls her up on a carpet and throws her down into a deep river with her feet in a cement bucket.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 23, 2007, 01:53:01 PM
MRINGEL MRINGEL MRINGEL MRINGEL CALLING FROM SOUTHAM

so many questions about the last Saramago (Ensayo sobre la ceguera) and more on the interview La Nacion published.Is he O.K. in the head? 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 23, 2007, 03:55:15 PM
martinbeck3  re:#94.

It's that way everywhere. Something about the times in which we live,the best of times for the (President Bush)Man who would be King until he caught a glimpse of what happens to the way he looks, when it is--the worst of times for his constituents, the citizens on the premises, and the citizens where ever his bad magicians have cast their spell for him around the globe.  He became a fashion and perhaps should have only aspired to be somebody like Oscar de la Renta.

We now have posters suggesting that his General will have the answer.

You and I know that when you start taking Generals seriously, it is time to take a vacation as far away as possible and find out how to get a long term visa as a world traveler without coming back.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 24, 2007, 11:13:28 AM
Maddie,don´t complain about your country.Listen to this: yesterday you had the members of the Democratic party answering LIVE in Youtube.You have like 24 candidates in one party.

Compare:

we have one candidate (Ms.Cristina F. de Kirchner) chosen by the her husband (alone) without any internal elections in their party.We call this *fingerchoosing*(a dedo).

Ms.Cristina won´t answer or give any interview to the Arg. press.

When she gave her one and only speech to the members of her party(!) she sounded like a female Mussolini.Shouting angrily -I wonder why- and pointing doen with her ring finger energetically whenever she said something strong.From then on we haven´t heard anymore.

I think she´s picked the style from watching old Evita´s newsreels.

If you want to read a good Evita book,read SANTA EVITA by TOMAS ELOY MARTINEZ who,by the way teaches at Rutgers uNIVERSITY,he also wrote another book on Perón.

These Kirchners are a sort of fancy peronistas.The peronistas will never allow our country to return to what it once was.They want to have masses of uneducated citizens.You just can´t begin to imagine what public schools are.   


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on July 24, 2007, 02:42:51 PM
http://www.spamula.net/blog/2007/04/xul_solar_1.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on July 24, 2007, 05:53:05 PM
Martinbeck3: I don't think the people here has time for Crish-tina Kirchner. Let's talk about Paris Hillton instead.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on July 24, 2007, 06:43:49 PM
martinbeck3

I think the Democrats have only two candidates and as it were the Republicans are playing the field with enough men to make a soccer team, correct?

So far I have never voted for Hilliary; I feel that she can make cookies, for the soccer team, of course.

I don't want to read any more Evita Peron books, or see any more Evita Peron movies, one was enough and a few articles in the peridicals with photos of the Snow White glass coffin  was sufficient for all time. Like  the importunate one, elportenito says,talk with Paris Hilton and you will someday end up with the same thing, same story, stranger things have happened. Even I once knew a lad from Venezuela, actually, I think that I met two of them who did not know each other, but whereas one was obviously working at something, the other gave you the feeling that you ought to be asking, "What are you doing here?"   Ms.Hilton could marry somebody just like that and start a war while hanging out in Switzerland.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on August 01, 2007, 09:36:46 AM
...I was just pasing bye to see if the geraniums needed watering.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 01, 2007, 10:25:48 AM
Maddie, I don´t know whant an *alvoral*is.
Porteñito, the malvones are fine the geranios so so with the helada.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 01, 2007, 10:30:21 AM
I am reading El vuelo de la Reina by Tomas Eloy Martinez.O.K. I hope the Reina is not Crishtina. 

I think I will remove myself to father´s estancia until October.I´m sick of this sorry bunch of candidates.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 03, 2007, 11:08:41 AM
NNYHAV Master the Liknmeister.

Thank you for the Xul Solar link.

Belive it or not,I didn´t know there was a Xul Solar museum. It´s just up there in town.So close to my house ! That´s great I´ll try and visit it this week-end.Rainy,cold weekend made to order.This guy was some sort of magician of some kind.He and Borges,I´ve always suspected them to be part of a secret society.

JOHN60,the Druid Gentleman would be a great help if he was around.
   


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on August 03, 2007, 11:25:51 AM
Martin, John60 is around.  He posts now and then in other discussions.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 03, 2007, 11:42:24 AM
Thanks Don.I´ll Honor the Search Feature and find out his hereabouts.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 03, 2007, 05:43:38 PM
Look:

http://www.spamula.net/blog/2007/04/xul_solar_1.html

The third Xul Solar picture -the air-boat- looks very much like the Memorial del Convento description of the flying machine.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on August 03, 2007, 10:29:24 PM
I had the same impression.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on August 04, 2007, 01:56:31 AM
Martin, if ya'll want to group read a book, you can ask Weezo to put you up a poll.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on August 04, 2007, 06:51:32 AM
donot:...why would Martin want to be put up a pole?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on August 04, 2007, 10:35:52 AM
Elportentia, you've been busy this morning (or whenever you started out on this last rash of postings.)  Reminds me of a goat I once had who came up on the porch to leave me little round pills of poop.  That goat had utter disdain for me even though he was dependent on me for everything.  I miss that goat.

You think we don't know we've got ca-ca for government just like you and most of the rest of the world has?  Man, the rich and corporations have us all by the balls, citizen and government.  Americans and Aussies don't take to the streets.  Argentinians (and other South American countries) do.  Lordy, I wish we world citizens would get up on our hind legs.  We're in the majority for Christ's sake.  We ought to set a date and take to the streets around the world.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 06, 2007, 01:18:37 PM
BOCA, I already put up a pole the Blooming Lampost.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 06, 2007, 01:41:05 PM
Yesteday evening a cable channel started showing a series of four Borges interviews,recorded in the mid 80´s by the Spanish TV.They each last 1/2 hours.

In this first interview Borges said two important things:

a)ALL of his latter work is contained in his first one , Fervor the Buenos Aires(wow!).Interesting to notice when interpreting any of his work.That means a thorough re-read of FDBA.A not unpleasant task.

b) and this is gross: Borges said that LatAm. is not ready for democracy and that it would be ready in 300-400 years!.This really saddens me.It diminishes the man.

He said that two of his ancestors were *adelantados*,or Spanish conquerors, Juan de Garay (who founded B.A: in the 16th cent.) and Geronimo Luis de Cabrera (who founded Cordoba in the same cent.)

Later on all the men in the Borges family were soldiers except for his father (who suffered the same sight condition he did) and himself.They were soldiers during  the Wars of  Independence in the XIX cent. This is the only excuse I find for Borges the man.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 06, 2007, 01:58:16 PM
martinbeck3

For a man of his age to have said,
...not ready for democracy and that it would be ready in 300-400 years!. is equivalent to saying,"not ready for Primetime Players". The elderly are often quite sarcastic and sardonic in their utterances after having witnessed all this take place in their prime time.

Take a gander at this:

http://seesdifferent.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/the-incomprehensible-dem-cave-in-on-the-fisa-amendment/

This means, in a very technical political way, we are not allowed to say anything smart ass in our communications with you by e-mail, phone, or computer, though I'd love to have the ACLU lawyers run over this some more for the details in the fine print which none of the voters on this actually saw....

How do you like those adelantados?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 06, 2007, 04:01:05 PM
I hope you are right. Borges was very ironic in his remarks but there are some things about which no one can be *witty* about.re/ the 70´s in Arg.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on August 06, 2007, 05:14:41 PM
Martin, Borges may be more right than you imagine.  Look at what the U.S. has done with Democracy and we've been operating under the illusion that we have had a Democratic system for some 250 years.  I guarantee you, we ain't got it right yet if the last seven years is any example.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on August 06, 2007, 07:46:31 PM
"ALL of his latter work is contained in his first one"

He might also have said all of his prior work is contained in his last one.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on August 07, 2007, 05:06:09 AM
donot: I assume you were referring to my outbursts on Obama somewhere else?.....those are the only little "drops" of wisdom I can relate to your obfuscation with me regarding your awareness of how bad things are and not needing me to remind you (or anyone else) about it.

But a goat?.....I like cats, I would rather be compared to a cat leaving odoriferous messages in other people's porch.



_________________________________________________________________________________________________________



(now seriously. does the "do not remove" have the dramatic connotation I imagine?...)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 07, 2007, 07:51:29 AM
(now seriously. does the "do not remove" have the dramatic connotation I imagine?...)
http://xkcd.com/295 ?...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on August 07, 2007, 01:01:27 PM
Elportentia, my brother.  Excuse me, but I could have sworn you had a highly developed sense of humor.  Not?

The pills left on the porch by my goat was just a metaphor for your knee jerk type comments on past, current, and future events.  Filtering everything through one prism, as it were.  But this is noted and allowed for because I know the sides of you that show thoughtful and sophisticated reasoning.  Just as I cared for and put up with my goat, I would hope you would reciprocate.

The Donotremove refers to that silly tag on some goods (the tag shows the content and origin of materials used) that says you can't remove the tag under penalty of law.  Oh me, the folks of my generation and my parents generation who would nearly swoon when I removed such tags from anything of mine.  The talk behind fans (or fingers to the lips) at gatherings about my foolhardy behavior and how my parents must suffer under the burden of having to own up to being related to me. :)

Elportentia, I remain your friend and servant, Donotremove.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 07, 2007, 04:00:30 PM
"ALL of his latter work is contained in his first one"

He might also have said all of his prior work is contained in his last one.

Quite right but he chose to say his first one.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 08, 2007, 10:38:29 AM
So it is! I had just imagined Borges had thought of the idea not picking it from Dante but from several authors and philosophers.

I´d love to read El Aleph.It´s a story I can read forever and find new things about it.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 09, 2007, 08:13:20 AM
Post away Reader, post away...



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on August 09, 2007, 08:43:18 AM
donotremove: Got it.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 09, 2007, 02:58:22 PM
Three short comments on The Aleph:


First is a very charming scene where Borges has Borges comment on his sense of wonder upon discovering that letter in books didn't rearrange themselves when the book closed.  I wonder if Borges is commenting on the writing process and the power of the author exerted over the word. 

Second is an amusing joke where Borges comments that he was passed over for the National Book Prize and the madman got second.  I think that was the year Borges won second prize for one of his own stories.

Third, if you were to find an Aleph (much potential for madness) and gazed into the thing, would you have to know what to look at?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 09, 2007, 03:16:36 PM
You might look for it here:

http://www.themodernword.com/borges/borges_links.html

I'd hunt it down for you, but if I don't get on my treadmill soon, I'm not going to get to it today.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 09, 2007, 05:08:53 PM
This is really interesting:

http://plato.stanford.edu/search/searcher.py?query=aleph

READER, who were you in the other life i.e. nyt forums?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 09, 2007, 05:44:44 PM
Welcome MACC!

Here is The Aleph:

http://www.phinnweb.org/links/literature/borges/aleph.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 09, 2007, 07:01:22 PM
Reader....Sorry for the time waster...I hope you found something of use there.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 09, 2007, 07:12:03 PM
Reader

I agree.

And yes (NYT) the same fellow...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 09, 2007, 07:36:01 PM
Borges states in the Afterword to The Aleph:

In "The Zahir" and "The Aleph" I think I can detect some influence of Wells' story "The Crystal Egg"(1899).

http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/W/WellsHerbertGeorge/prose/timeandspace/crystalegg.html



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on August 09, 2007, 08:34:18 PM
Dont forget the early story about the Arab and the drop of ink and the first line of Adam Bede.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 09, 2007, 08:40:25 PM
"WITH a single drop of ink for a mirror, the Egyptian sorcerer undertakes to reveal to any chance comer far-reaching visions of the past."


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 10, 2007, 12:29:39 PM
 Mathematics
In set theory, The Hebrew aleph glyph is used as the symbol to denote the aleph numbers, which represent the cardinality of infinite sets.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 10, 2007, 02:22:36 PM
To cut pages for those who are old enough to remember buying fresh copies of editions as yet unread or unhandled by others, usually in fine bindings, and never parted with, you took a very good long - bladed scissors, never a letter-opener or even the risk of a sharp "       "
knife because a slight change in pressure might tear the page and someway damage it forever despite careful lightweight translucent taping,lhoffman would know what I mean because it was often used on sheet-music as well.

A sharper and a sharper's card, is a gambler who cheats at hards and has access to a marked deck. He might not deal the game himself but chance to insinuate the deck into the game through some innocent such as yourself who did not know that sharper's mark their cards to win.

I have to read the Aleph now that she is functioning but I presume Beatrice arrived with Dante in the wings somewhere; are they by any chance touring the levels of the Inferno or just Purgatorio?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on August 10, 2007, 02:26:27 PM
Reader, when I find a book with pages that have escaped the publisher's knife, I slip a sharpened mail opener (that I keep for this purpose) in between the pages and slice carefully but quickly (to get a clean edge.)  The results never look good when the pages are evenly clean edged and woe unto anyone without a library grade paper cutter and a very good eye that tries to set things aright along the page edge. :(


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 10, 2007, 02:36:26 PM
MCC
Ps, that little gauge of the bio-life/real life gave the real me a surprisingly longer life than I would have imagined. Half way through you get really scared, for all those things are true, and then they lighten up and you get brownie points for reforming  but I must tell you that although the treadmill is much safer at certain ages, after a certain age it does not change the shape of your destiny.  I found that very annoying because I had been working out really actively with the visiting tv Israeli ESPN whatever his name, to remember the routines in the space that I had at the time, when suddenly I had some orthodontist work done and was so drugged for over three months that I lost my sense of balance and had one minor accident after another. I caught a railing when slipping on ice on a door-sill, and then could not hold a pen, but could type just fine.  Does that make any sense.

I still was cloudy. By the time that I got outside again, after a fast trip to California, and moving back into rural America, where I could be outside growing things, I did not particularly regain "definition", muscle tone, or loss of weight from outdoor, fresh air work outside and climbing and descending three or four stories on and off throughout the day of housekeeping.

But, the gauge indicated I am going to live with it much longer than imagined.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 10, 2007, 05:20:59 PM
martinbeck3

I found the story delightful. Will you swap me one reference for another. I should like to know the literal meaning of Beatriz last name,Viterbo?
Because it is nagging me that I know it, other than "life" (of) "earth" like it is some well-known soft-drink that it is good for  your health of perhaps even sparkling water!

I still maintain that she is the poet's Beatrice.

What I swap for the above is how much I enjoyed the name of the company that wrecked the house and the cellar,earthy placement of the invisible Aleph. The story's hero saw an advertisement or an article with the name they were known by: Procrustes & Co.

The Procrustean myth has to do with stretching, as one of the tortures to make the victim fit the circumstance; but here it also implies that the boastful writer who won the second prize in Literature (do you have any idea how often this happens? And how disturbing to the hero of the tale to put up with this egoist, who produces, and produces, and produces, but quite what we can not tell) is stretching the truth.

I knew someone like this, who followed me for years, and was terribly convinced that he resembled Allen Ginsburg and therefore his writing was as good as and as meaningful as that of A.G.   I had to go through numerous ruses to avoid this person and hide things from him so that he would not interfere with my life and that of others; while his mother thought that like all the other girls he became fixated upon, I must be after her fortune(he was an only son).  He is still out there someplace like the guy in this story; and I duck, every time I see anyone who vaguely resembles him or how he moves, from a distance, before he comes toward me! Like the hero of Borges story, you are forever affected by having known one of these and endangered of being utterly influenced.

Now I want to post a link to a person telling a story very much as far-fetched as this which I posted about in Fiction to lhoffman and johnr that
deals with this theme of the Hebrew letters and the mystic symbolism today in Israel at present and not a word of it is true;so it begins to be like the experience of Borges' hero who simply can not take the word of this madman but when in what seems a folly of doubt and fright begins to experience this odd phenomena mirrored in the mind.

I freaked and fortunately found outside information as to who the teller of the story and why he perceived things like the mad poet of the world in the aleph.  Hope you are ready for this.

http://www.thegoldenreport.com/asp/jerrysnewsmanager/anmviewer.asp?a=817


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 10, 2007, 05:38:28 PM
Yes, Beatriz is so named after Dante´s Beatrice.See Reader´s POST (123) ,where Eco is quoted as having said that the first aleph appears in la Divina Comedia.

Viterbo,as far as I know is a city in Italy.I´ll google it up as suddenly I´m as mistified as you. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 10, 2007, 06:22:19 PM
"Sometimes learning a fact is enough to make an entire series of corroborating details, previously unrecognised, fall into place."

I quite like this line. It blends a reality into The Aleph, that is—in the words of the mysterious narrator of Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius—"not too incompatible with the real world".




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 10, 2007, 06:36:30 PM
BEPPO, just read and enjoyed the Welles story. It wouldn´t surprise me that Borges had also read it  and got the Aleph idea from it (though not only from it).


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 10, 2007, 06:38:09 PM
Did Borges write something on Welles?



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 10, 2007, 07:24:07 PM
martinbeck - I read it at lunchtime today and enjoyed it also.

Reader - I wrote this and then re-read your posts but I have little time availble tonight as work is all consuming at the moment. I see other things in your posts that are interesting comments but it will have to wait until tomorrow. Yes, Borges has written quite a bit on Wells. I picked up on that part of the story also - the cut relating to books. If someone had to apply to The Aleph the same level of scrutiny that "Borges" is reading into Carlos Argentino Daneri's poetry then they might be allowed to speculate that the line contains everything referred to by madupont and donotremove but also contains speculative material—"...so as not to find, months later, that they were still intact"—it's a peculiar line. I mean, it's easy (after madupont) to see what it should mean - a man leaving books in the hope that the intended recipient takes to them; a man using books as a potential catalyst to serenade a woman—possible if she reads them. But it seems that Beatriz doen't, so they're cut to remove that disappointment. But what of donotremove's suggestion?     

   

 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 10, 2007, 07:38:53 PM
Reader

When the story goes—

"Beatriz, Beatriz Elena, Beatriz Elena Viterbo," I said. "Beloved Beatriz, Beatriz lost forever—it's me, it's me, Borges."

—that for me is an indication that the narrator is "Borges", but not necessarily in that order. Sorry to be ambiguous but when Borges writes his name in a story it might mean something more.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 10, 2007, 09:27:53 PM
There is something nagging at me from the text that seemed to refer to Dante.  I can't get my hands on the story right now, but can anyone find a reference to the Inferno?  I will try to find it later this evening. 

Viterbo is an ancient Italian village, although it would have been really cool if it had meant something relating to life in the sense that all life was contained in the Aleph.  Don't know if the word has any meaning. 

(Andy Goldsworthy....saw him somewhere a couple of years back, either in New York or Western Michigan....quite spectacular.  I would think it would be frustrating to build these structures just to tear them down.  He has made a movie that is quite interesting to watch.)

(Did the life expectancy....tested 14 years younger than my actual age.   Gave me 41 more years to live.  I guess I'm going to need a few more hobbies  ;D  )


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 10, 2007, 10:40:56 PM
Lhoffman, incredible, you must be a child?

Viterbo may be familiar to you as the spot where the Tuscia opera festival takes place.

Ironically, the name which has been attached to a falsified history through the ages, translates (Since Dante wrote the first up to the minute studies in rhetoric: De vulgari eloquentia) as: the Quarter of the Elbii.

Sound familiar?  Escape from Elba, go post with the Elbii


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 11, 2007, 12:51:22 AM
A child??  ChildLIKE....but I actually started turning grey in my twenties. 

I think what reminds me of Dante begins in the first paragraph:  Beatriz/Beatrice and unrequieted, eternal love.  Dante/Daneri.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: geezergranddad on August 11, 2007, 06:22:33 PM
Does poet ever visit this site?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Ricolo on August 12, 2007, 11:07:52 AM
continuation to martinbeck3

http://www.amazon.com/Imagining-Argentina-Lawrence-Thornton/dp/0553345796/ref=sr_1_3/002-5779211-1532832?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183610252&sr=1-3

or, tiny-url:

http://tinyurl.com/28seuo


In the fall of 1987, 77 actors in Santiago, Chile were threatened with execution by the dictator Pinochet. Reeve was asked by Ariel Dorfman to help save their lives. Reeve flew to Chile and helped lead a protest march. A cartoon then ran in a newspaper showing him carrying Pinochet by the collar with the caption, "Where will you take him, Superman?" For his heroics, he was awarded the Grand Cross of the Bernardo O’Higgins Order, the highest Chilean distinction for foreigners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Reeve

Those artists were never condemned to death by Pinochet. For they never were arrested and brought to trial. They just said that they had received anonymous death threats by agents of the DINA. It was a publicity stunt so far as I know.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 12, 2007, 12:28:46 PM
As you will note the quote is from an entry at the source beneath it(and as lhoffman pointed out, I take no responsibility for the claim , I use their information as everybody does, because it is an international common resource, to discuss ideas).

Which means that it is likely to be publicity in the same manner as that which you mentioned. But the real responsibility, if they be rumours,would then be to check with Lawrence Thornton as to the basis of his information. Anonymous threats by agents are now common experiences in the US that most people don't know what to make of because of the peculiar apparatus set up for their delivery under the guise of something else; they do however originate from the same source that financed the crack down in Argentina. Nothing mysterious about that. From what martin mentioned upon his coming to forum in due course, things are pretty much at present repeating the pattern that I recall from my childhood in how social-educational gatherings are conducted which creates a  lower middle-class-workers elite in support of the party they presume will prevail because it did before or, as in my era, they hoped would prevail after the crushing defeat of a particular cultural image at least two decades earlier.

These things move in waves you know.  Here we are undergoing another wave of that same incorrect reading of history.  I hardly had time to communicate personally with Martin to compare the same phenomena occuring in two different places right on schedule or how it now compares with my own observations in my own past but those accidents of blowing a message that has to be announced through an e-mail  under our new FISA commendations would be no doubt the work of my coincidental-angel who flits around eracing communications on a regular basis.

So what do you do for a hobby(?); unless it is literature per se that attracts you to these forums.  Mine consists of pursuing ideas like why would Ariel Dorfmann contact Reeve( who was a very private person in the seclusion of his home neighborhood where I was a neighbor for a time) if not for the very purpose of directing the light of publicity upon developments in the Pinochet regime? That's the bottom line.

My own interest had to do with whether there was any relationship between Reeve's antecedent and those of another former neighbour in the area, Anne Morrow Lindbergh, which accounts I should think for the airfield in our neighborhood that first gave me the realization that Christopher Reeve was still regularly in town.  Anne's father was of course ambassador from the US to Mexico prior to the Crash of '29. But that gives me another thought  to pursue. It's been nice talking with you.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Ricolo on August 12, 2007, 01:23:14 PM
My interest is mainly literature and movies. But being a native of Chile, just on the other side of the cordillera where Martin has his abode, I couldn’t help reacting to the propagandistic slant of that story in Wikipedia. Pinochet was responsible for many crimes, but he never subverted the independence of the judiciary, not even the army tribunals.
I don’t see the monetary connection of the dirty war in Argentina and the US. Although the US supported with monetary aid El Mercurio in Chile during Allende’s regime, Allende simply cut the supply of paper to El Mercurio whenever its criticism of his administration was too strong.
I haven’t seen boca around town. Bondi beach is a tad too cold this time of the year.
Nice ‘talking’ to you too.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 12, 2007, 01:46:09 PM
Reader - I watched a short twenty minute TV piece on Goldsworthy not so long ago. 

(http://senorcafe.com/archives/reed%20screen.jpg)

The image above was the one piece I remember most.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on August 12, 2007, 02:06:47 PM
Gosh, Beppo, that looks like uh . . .uh . . . ,well, you know.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 12, 2007, 02:22:34 PM
http://senorcafe.com/archives/reed%20screen.jpg

Donotremove - You're not yoking.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 12, 2007, 02:26:27 PM
donotremove

That was in the story that I posted, from the  guy who is a Jew for Christ , in Jerusalem translating the symbology that is photographed but in his own read-in style(as Reader mentions can be done although maybe it shouldn't? Not clear on the point. But the image is a universal symbol originating in India (the Tibetans call it,Yab-Yum)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 12, 2007, 02:35:03 PM
Beppo,re:#160
"a man using books as a potential catalyst to serenade a woman—possible if she reads them. But it seems that Beatriz doen't, so they're cut to remove that"

Okay, now tell me, since we know what you call "serenade" is the image of a book used as it was in the tradition that Borges and milieu have inherited from  "courtly love" in which the Provencal poet plays a piece of music and composes impromptu, generally, improvises, a piece of lyric to his lady love whom he will never make love to in any other way. Or, so we've been told.   Some months ago, I posted in music to ask if anyone was listening to the particular program of Sting singing these lyrics from the English lyricist? Which is an adequate example of the work that goes into it.  Does this mean Sting is in love?  Hope not because I have a friend who will be sorely disappointed in that he is"the ideal man of Leonardo Da Vinci" and I shall never tell. Perhaps, he is?

In which case you have -- cut to the chase, got to admit that Borges cut the leaves as a convenience to his lady love as a gesture of courtly love.

But why did Dante's Beatrice not accept his poems?  Do you recall? He persisted none the less, because it was the purest love.  Now tell me the secret, the riddle of the Aleph which is the beginning....


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 12, 2007, 05:39:22 PM
What does 'borges' mean in English?

'Borges' refers to the character 'Borges' who resides in the works of the writer known as Borges.     



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 12, 2007, 06:15:10 PM
very good answer beppo. Someone has to say these things. At the moment elportenito is saying his views of the banking news in Spanish for the edification of weezo and Bob; when thanatopsy  arrives to look in at American History this may all change. I don't know if elportenito understood as yet that thanatopsy has a Taino language exposure from the islands in the Caribbean, but this could be Portuguese influence, no?

I came here to post on my favorite religious heresy.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 12, 2007, 06:18:12 PM
beppo,

"madupont
Superhero Member

Posts: 1169


 
  Re: Popular Music
« Reply #210 on: June 13, 2007, 09:13:00 PM » Quote Modify Remove 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone's around and is not listening already, PBS is doing a program of Sting doing Dowland's Music on the Lute and from his song-book.

Started at 9:00p.m. "

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/shows/sting/index.html




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 13, 2007, 02:31:30 AM
beppo, Part 1. of my favourite religious heresy

madupont
Re: Fiction  #520 

But then  lhoffman egged me on and I wrote Part 2. as well.  Somebody has got to say these things.

I'm only mentioning (all) this, in light of the Aleph confusion here abouts. It is merely the Hebrew version of the Alpha, from the ordinary point of view, until you start occulting it up ala Borges with all the similar referential ideas that have been mentioned.
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 13, 2007, 11:29:25 AM
beppo, Part 1. of my favourite religious heresy

madupont
Re: Fiction  #520 

But then  lhoffman egged me on and I wrote Part 2. as well.  Somebody has got to say these things.

 


Don't thank me...just doing my job.  :)   But as far as favorite heretics, the Phibionites got it all over the Cathars.  But the big downfall of Gnosticism is that these various sects seem to have something against reproduction....How to keep the religion thriving?  That was one problem nicely addressed by the Catholic faith and their emphasis on Genesis 1:28....Be fruitful etc.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on August 13, 2007, 12:24:55 PM
I'm confused again.  I thought Borges cut the pages so he could not later see that Beatrice had not cut them.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 13, 2007, 12:58:02 PM
On cutting the pages:  "I would not be obliged, as I had been on occasions before, to justify my presence with modest offerings of books---books whose pages I learned at last to cut, so as not to find, months later, that they were still intact."

But, I wonder if the implication of the translation is different from the original.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 13, 2007, 12:59:50 PM
Johnr60

That was someone's interpretation.  On the other hand, when the question came up as to what 'cut the pages' meant, I immediately answered, why those of us who bought when we did (donotremove's answer was also there following my own) found that our pages were uncut and that we would have to proceed to cut them, what proceedures we took.

I guess this has to do with how much one has lived; as, cut the pages is nothing at all like cut the crap or cut the coke.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 13, 2007, 01:11:12 PM
johnr60

Ps. if you look at the sequence of posts, you can see that was where I came in, checked the links,and responded to the first  questioning post,from experience.  I had not yet read the Aleph.  Which is rather a simple story charmingly done.  But I'm beginning to see that whereas there used to be a Latin American Literature forum, the people who were interested in keeping that alive are there on the one hand and on the other those once told to stay out of the forum. But then this forum as it was in the past, even then, attracted argumentative people  who stalked around the other forums to clarify some comment, but fortunately that is no longer the case.

Meanwhile I have a wonderful present for elportenito but he's probably sleeping by now; so I'll wait.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on August 13, 2007, 01:15:42 PM
hoffman

JLB assisted in the translation

mad

you lost me


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 13, 2007, 01:41:22 PM
beppo, Part 1. of my favourite religious heresy

madupont
Re: Fiction  #520 

But then  lhoffman egged me on and I wrote Part 2. as well.  Somebody has got to say these things.

 


Don't thank me...just doing my job.  :)   But as far as favorite heretics, the Phibionites got it all over the Cathars.  But the big downfall of Gnosticism is that these various sects seem to have something against reproduction....How to keep the religion thriving?  That was one problem nicely addressed by the Catholic faith and their emphasis on Genesis 1:28....Be fruitful etc.


I don't think that the Catholic "faith" has nicely addressed anything but at least they taught us church history by the time that we were in seventh grade. All those matters, that you have had to look up from some Church history resource; alas, however while they taught us this, they taught us nothing, absolutely nothing about anything else in World History and therefore we knew nothing about anybody else's history in the entire world.  Since my father enjoyed reading History, I was able to balance the deficiency of historic one-sidedness by reading from his books at home.  

Incidentally, the Roman Catholicism, of either the Byzantium Empire or the Holy Roman Empire for that matter, is not a "faith".  Faith,Hope,and Charity are the Cardinal Virtues.  Believe me,    I studied both Canon Law and theology in the convent with a woman whom we called, "the Religion Nun",
Sr. Generosa, an immensely huge, warm, kindly outgoing person. The guy who came in, as I heard the story through the grapevine, who would have been an assistant priest, at a certain point when the vocations were divied up, made a botch of explaining marital duties to the marriageable girls not destined to be postulants for the novitiate, and the girls finked on him by telling the nuns at our dormitory who were menopausal virgins from a control-freek system. They turned him in.  I wont say,"to what". I didn't stick around to find out.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 13, 2007, 03:54:16 PM
To *cut the pages* is an exact translation.Thanks to this discussion I now know what JLB meant.I didn´t know why he had Argentino cutting the pages.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 13, 2007, 03:57:34 PM
I THINK IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA NAMNING THIS FORUM "IBERO-AMERICAN LIT."

This way we would integrate both Spanish and Portuguese lit. and then we wouldn´t have to invent LatAm ancestors for Saramago and others they´d be included. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 13, 2007, 05:29:24 PM
martinbeck3 -- Good Idea

06:18:12 PM Yesterday
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/shows/sting/index.html
[This is the English version of sad, melancholic love]

You know Henri of Navarre, born in the Pyrennees was Spanish, right?
One day elportenito asked what is this language? (he was trying to read the Chanson de Roland; and if he is not asleep, he is reading it now). explained how the Romance languages of Old Latin World varied from North to South getting very sticky at each border of each vast little barony.

Yet if there had been no Provencal language for serenades and poetic lyrics of courtly love, would that brusque,somewhat grotesque soldier at arms from Navarre, who knew that he lived in the Spanish Empire, have had to ask Jewish bankers in the Netherlands (who also knew that they lived in the Spanish empire) to send him some privateers, after Catherine de Medici poisoned her only son fit to be King of France, and by accident no less, so that Daniel Auteuil/Henry of Navarre could marry Catherine's daughter (who like Borges' Beatrice was in the habit of catting about in masquerade to get laid in dark alleys ) and everybody lived happily ever after at the Louvre no less when our man from the Pyrenees became King.

What would life have been like had he been sent to Sud America a bit gnarly and died in the Andes? I don't think he was a forebear of Borges but no doubt Borges sometimes had somebody like him in mind when he wrote stories of faint heart never won fair lady because there was always Beatriz or Margot.

I have a message for el portenito  in case he ever gets around to casting Roland for the movies; a star wants to audition.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito on August 14, 2007, 10:02:50 AM
madame du pont:

"he was trying to read the Chanson de Roland"

I wasn't trying, I was.  I see Roland as a chubby, short youngish man, but still strong enough to put up with butchering Muslims of whom, as the writer/s of the book painfully demonstrate, he and the rest of the brave Francs, didn't know much about them. You don't ask questions about the ones who worship the wrong god, you just do your duty and butcher them.


All this, plus the exhibition at the Art Gallery of New South Wales, The Arts of Islam from the Khallili Collection still on and untill the 23d  September, led me once and for all to get The Qur'an, a new translation by M.A.S Abdel Haleem, published by Oxford World Classics in soft cover for the Masses.

So when I finish reading La Chanson de Roland I'll get my head around The Qur'an.  I will love to read the  Sarajevo Haggadah, of which I have a  copy  that I bought at Bosnia Hersegovina's National Museum, where the original Haggadah is kept, but unfortunately I can't read Hebrew, so I have to content my self with looking at the beauty of it like just another iliterate in this world.

At least the good old frogs (the French, in Australian parlance) didn't twist their spelling around their incipient language as poor old Chausser did. Speaking Spanish also helps to read ancient French and to rejoice in finding in La Chanson the future "english" words of ancient French origine.

In other words, pure enjoyment ,7 euros for La Chanson and 20 Aussie dollars for The Qur'an, as we Argentines say: "me divierto barato" (I have fun cheaply)





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 14, 2007, 01:05:08 PM
What about my previous question of re-naming this forum Ibero-American lit. so as to include the Spanish and Portuguese writers?

At present I am reading Rosa Montero(Sp)´s "La loca de la casa"(the madwoman of the house) the madwoman being the mind of a writer. It´s a biography of the author and of other writers about "fantasy,passion fears and doubts among writers*...and readers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Montero


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 14, 2007, 04:14:02 PM
Apologies, elportenito, I will send you resent by mail.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 14, 2007, 05:11:46 PM
I know we´ll exclude Italian writers who are *latin*,too but it´s another language.They can be read in Ficition.Otherwise we´ll have to include the French and the Romanian and god knows how many more would claim their Latin roots :)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 14, 2007, 05:14:02 PM
READER,are you reading "El aleph"? Do you know that there is a Borges tour in B.A. that takes you to the house mentioned in the story?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 14, 2007, 08:52:29 PM
The heterotopia is capable of juxtaposing in a single real place several spaces. Several sites that are in themselves incompatible…they have a function in relation to all the space that remains. This function unfolds between two extreme poles. Either their role is to create a space of illusion that exposes every real space, all the sites inside of which human life is partitioned, as still more illusory…or else, on the contrary, their role is to create a space that is other, another real space, as perfect, as meticulous, as well arrange as ours is messy, ill constructed and jumbled.
Michel Foucault.

Does this have something to do with it? Or The Aleph is about the anxiety of the poet facing the limitation of consciousness that prevent us from keeping memory of the dead and also the limited ability of language and literature to fix the ever changing universe in a poem?

I read The Aleph this afternoon after reading some of your posts.Reading Borges is always a pleasure.
 :) I’m glad to see most of the “old” NYT crowd here.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 15, 2007, 12:23:08 AM
macd,

I recognized your initials from nytimes.com but it has been so long ago for me that I am trying to recall our interactions and what books we discussed? Give me a clue?

I have to leave something for martin, somewhere, so it might as well be here.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 15, 2007, 12:24:40 AM
martinbeck3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I&eurl=


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 15, 2007, 12:32:32 AM
READER,are you reading "El aleph"? Do you know that there is a Borges tour in B.A. that takes you to the house mentioned in the story?


Which house, though? You remember that the house where he saw the Aleph was torn down?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 15, 2007, 07:37:02 AM
Hi Madupont. The first book I read with the NYT forumites  was "Baltasar and Blimunda" and the last, I think, was Yo El Supremo…in the middle some Restrepo, Marcia Marquez, Juan Rulfo, etc.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 15, 2007, 07:56:43 AM
"Beatriz Viterbo c'est moi" :
Angular Vision in Estela Canto's
Borges a contraluz
 http://borges.uiowa.edu/vb1/balder1.htm

Borges dedicated El Aleph to Estela canto and she wrote Borges a contraluz.  Here some comments and extracts of the book.

Funny that Borges has denied any intentional relation with Dante in TA when we read how he used to call Estela and himself: Beatriz and Dante


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 15, 2007, 12:01:41 PM
MADDIE, when I noticed that I had to choose between the music I was listening to in my PC or Cheney...I think he is a liar.   


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 15, 2007, 12:04:07 PM
...oh! I forgot.the house was torn down in the story but as far as I know it exists.I´ll look it up and come out with something less vague.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on August 15, 2007, 12:13:57 PM
Martin, if Cheney's lips are moving he is lying.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 15, 2007, 03:33:14 PM
macd,re:208,

That's exactly why I asked beppo what I did(?) because I took Borges "literally".  Alas, I thought at first that I had copy of Purgatorio,Inferno, and Paradiso still with me. Nope. What I have had was  Dante's little book,"La Vita Nuova" (and I can't find that either since my sister-in-law was here 10 months ago? Nevertheless, I will move some boxes and hunt through the shelves, sort out and pack books until I find it for shipping or what? My books give themselves away, no kidding, then I give away the remainder. It never fails).

I seem to have the illustrated mixed up with Milton's, Paradise Lost, which stood on my staircase for years in hopes that my son would just take it upstairs and look it over. What he would do was leave me book reports also between the  bannister posts, that he done for school. I knew we were getting somewhere when I read his version of The Good Solder Schweik, done at the same age that I had read it in high school.

William Blake did of course both Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise(Lost) for sure.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 15, 2007, 04:13:48 PM
MACC, WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!!
good to see you and as usual you´ve come with some excellent input.Will answer shortly  as I feel it deserves the time.I am at the mill with slaves -mine,but all the same i´m the 1 that works the most-tomorrow trade fair,just imagine! Arg. growing (*)economically and that means i have to work harder.

(*) in spite of Mr.Kirchner


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 15, 2007, 04:37:21 PM
Madupont

When I wrote (after madupont) I was referring to the fact that you had clarified what the sentence probably meant - but I must admit to still being slightly confused as to what is involved in cutting pages of a book. Any further information on this would be most welcome.

Alas I haven't read any Dante.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 15, 2007, 09:56:25 PM
Hi Beppo…Catto?

I think Borges writing is full of allusions, symbolism and figurative speech…but in that sentence about the books he presented to his love; the act of cutting the pages is —from my point of view— just the way he finds to avoid realizing his presents were just received and put away without provoking any interest. Once the pages are cut, there is no way to know if the book has being read or not and he can keep the illusion that it was. Maybe that is the expectation of the poet in regards to the reader in general...
Am I reading too literally?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 15, 2007, 10:01:16 PM
Hi Martin!
Thank God in this new forum Macc is Reader...so I will know that when you write macc, you mean macd... :-)))))))
I look forward to read your comments.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 16, 2007, 02:26:55 AM
beppo,re:#214

Very few in these forums  have read Dante,nothing to get hung about, although it comes up in this forum because Borges himself refers to the parallel of  Dante and Beatrice with Borges and Beatriz; and now we are presented from the university of Iowa with a paper by Prof. Balderston at Tulane in New Orleans that clarifies Borges and Estelle are Borges and Beatriz are also, Nunc-stans and Hic-stans,Dante and Beatrice.

It becomes more apparent then that academics at numerous universities, not just the two mentioned, read Dante continuously to crack some code. Yet they know that Beatrice is Dante's guide through the nether world because she is untouched, and although he composes his cantos of the underworld,and the Inferno, and Paradise, his purpose is to be dedicated to Beatrice who is blessed (or, in another parlance, we are told "to follow our bliss").

However , one catch, we are told on the first page of Aleph that Beatriz married Roberto Alessandri(then divorced); and I remember  something in Balderston's description about the literary give and take of Estelle and Borges that she eventually married but not to Borges whom she was not particularly eager to wed, and while they seem to have some sordid literary implications and complication, I particularly liked note 6 at the finale because that skirmish over the return of a book is so typical, as to who owns the definitive literary history of a relationship, the story is already written and Borges says he cut the pages. Meaning what, you ask?   Let's not be too romantic with language but,  since they are his poems, he opens his heart to her.  Therefore, he cuts the sealed pages that he brings from the publisher or rather receives from the publisher.

Here, I will explain it again. When I first bought books of my own and was no longer a child reading what my parents had read, I would select books like Roland for instance that elportenito is reading, or a novel by Anatole France to  find out what was between the pages. They arrived in their cases, sealed. To read their secrets, their mysteries, you have to cut between the pages, cut open the edges.  And never having been faced with that, you understood now why books had that interesting old, very read look about them.  All was revealed. Now, the only question was Should I open these pages one at a time and prolong the interesting discovery page by page, or do this all at once as it must eventually be done anyway.  I can assure you that I no longer remember which I chose. Only the fantastic smell of the clean new pages is remembered very vaguely, and it is an odor mingled with beeswax,incense and holy water without a doubt. Which means, from that point of view, Dante is apparently dressed like a priest.

One gets over that allusion in time and realize that he dresses like a scholar. In ignorance, we perceive Beatrice as a woman, a female companion on his journey; but, then what would we know. It's virginity that gets in the way of knowledge. What a shock it would have been to discover she probably could not read at all, "What in the world?"  It wasn't thought necessary for her role in life. Eventually, we grow to notice that Beatrice herself is barely taller than a child.

For Borges however who desires that Beatriz will eventually lead him to a place where there is an acceptance of his words, his poems, uh,uh, nothing doing, she's really Estelle who comes right out and writes it all down and publishes it too and therefore she never really was that Beatrice anyway but she was for awhile Beatriz. That is what Balderston discovered in his research.   In Borges story, I'm far more interested in how much he detests his pompous poetic rival before, during, and after the Aleph is revealed and reveals all.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 16, 2007, 04:11:42 AM
Another suggestion for more reading - expand the forum to where a direct influence on Latin American Literature can be read here or vice versa thereby allowing us to read Dante and others. This could get out of hand but I'm sure enough voices would be raised if it did. If this was acceptable does anyone have any suggestions who else could fall under the umbrella and who has to stay out in the wet?

Madupont - thanks. More (hopefully) later...

Macd - How goes Venezuela?  :)         


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 16, 2007, 08:18:43 AM
[...]
Alas I haven't read any Dante.
And alack.

Borges aside, Inferno is must reading, like Homer & Virgil, like Cervantes & Shakespeare. Borges not aside, even more so (though I'd throw in the sagas as well). Nothing to do with JLB's bio, everything to do with his reading, and writing, life.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 16, 2007, 12:52:20 PM
Bolaño -- Amulet and otherwise
http://www.texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=2567

I read it half a year ago -- didn't think to play up the angle that both Bolaño and Hofmannsthal were ex-poets
http://nnyhav.blogspot.com/2007/02/midwinter-midweek-readings.html

Looking forward to Nazi Literature in America, and then 2666 next year ...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 16, 2007, 01:25:52 PM
Bolano wrote exquisite poetry.

But that happens, there is a change in our metier because of some other event in our life which we might not even realize causes this delicate shift.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 16, 2007, 01:32:44 PM
ps,

The post Laughlin era at New Directions, since his death, has opened up(not differently than he might have done) to the reality which the general consciousness is bucking preferably by ignorance.  As North Americans,the publishers just moved on into the recognition that we are on the verge of having a bi-lingual nation in the US. You could say that they are subtle about it but obviously, when you begin a publishing program of Spanish language writers, something major is going on.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 16, 2007, 01:50:39 PM
ps,

The post Laughlin era at New Directions, since his death, has opened up(not differently than he might have done) to the reality which the general consciousness is bucking preferably by ignorance.  As North Americans,the publishers just moved on into the recognition that we are on the verge of having a bi-lingual nation in the US. You could say that they are subtle about it but obviously, when you begin a publishing program of Spanish language writers, something major is going on.
And German too! Hey, I guess Bolaño's next one is a twofer ...

But thanks for reminding me to check in on what they're up to:
http://www.ndpublishing.com/newtitles.html
Top o'the list is The Maias by Jose Maria Eca de Quieros, and Portugal's already been established as part of LatamLit thanks to Saramago (esp The Stone Raft).


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 16, 2007, 02:13:36 PM

Macd - How goes Venezuela?  :)         

To make it short: straight to the abyss.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 16, 2007, 02:32:17 PM
Quote
It becomes more apparent then that academics at numerous universities, not just the two mentioned, read Dante continuously to crack some code. Yet they know that Beatrice is Dante's guide through the nether world because she is untouched, and although he composes his cantos of the underworld,and the Inferno, and Paradise, his purpose is to be dedicated to Beatrice who is blessed (or, in another parlance, we are told "to follow our bliss").

I may have missed something here, but I think you meant "Virgil is Dante's guide, etc."


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 16, 2007, 02:47:14 PM
Quote
It becomes more apparent then that academics at numerous universities, not just the two mentioned, read Dante continuously to crack some code. Yet they know that Beatrice is Dante's guide through the nether world because she is untouched, and although he composes his cantos of the underworld,and the Inferno, and Paradise, his purpose is to be dedicated to Beatrice who is blessed (or, in another parlance, we are told "to follow our bliss").
I may have missed something here, but I think you meant "Virgil is Dante's guide, etc."
Beatrice takes over from Virgil in Paradisio. But that would make Heaven the nether world. Hmm...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 16, 2007, 03:14:05 PM
Ya...I usually only think of the Inferno as the netherworld, too....perhaps it all depends on perspective?  ;)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 16, 2007, 06:36:27 PM
The netherworld is another term for what the Greeks consider Hades where the common lot of men are but shades who were not heroes in life deserving of Olympian attention.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on August 16, 2007, 06:41:56 PM
macd

Am I reading too literally?

Of course not.  If Borges can parody Dante and Beatrice why cant he parody Borges?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 16, 2007, 07:04:17 PM
nnyhav re:#227

Dante is at last rescued by Virgil after his love Beatrice intercedes on his behalf (Canto II), and he and Virgil begin their journey to the underworld.* Check Delacroix below.

(Dante made Virgil his guide to Hell and Purgatory in The Divine Comedy

A fictional depiction of Virgil was Dante Alighieri's guide through hell and purgatory in Dante's epic poem The Divine Comedy)

That said, Beatrice guides him through Heaven.


madupont
Superhero Member

Posts: 1275


 
  Re: Arts and Exhibitions
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2007, 09:26:02 PM »

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does this look like Delacroix to you?

http://www.navigo.com/wm/paint/auth/delacroix/barque-dante.jpg

Anyway, somebody posting noticed that this painting is reputed to be the inspiration for the Annie Leibovitz photo on the dvd cover for the 5th season of The Sopranos. That turned out to be the case and I could have posted this in television but I'm still figuring out this "Delacroix", who appears to have fallen between Michaelangelo and David.
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 16, 2007, 07:12:20 PM
Borges is not talking about Borges, even though he uses his name.  Borges is really talking about us.  We are Beatrice.


Most assuredly, we are not Beatrice. She is an actual Florentine woman with whom Dante was in love.  Borges uses the greater poet to compare himself more favorably; by the artistry of his writing in the Aleph, he may deserve that favorable comparison. But again, the Aleph is not akin to the Abyss. You are sometimes very lacking in any basic knowledge of Judaism and Hebrew, so could hardly comment on Kabbalism.  Your comparison is like commenting that Alpha is not so different than the abyss because you have not yet gone beyond that point?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 16, 2007, 07:18:47 PM
Reader5232, re:#234

Now you dispute that Baldstron at Tulane is somehow less learned than you, after Beppo offers his research {"That, perhaps, is one of the reasons Borges puts Borges into the story (and the same goes for Beatriz/ice)."} of exactly why Beatriz replaces Estelle to Borges version of his experience


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 16, 2007, 07:26:06 PM
The heterotopia is capable of juxtaposing in a single real place several spaces. Several sites that are in themselves incompatible…they have a function in relation to all the space that remains. This function unfolds between two extreme poles. Either their role is to create a space of illusion that exposes every real space, all the sites inside of which human life is partitioned, as still more illusory…or else, on the contrary, their role is to create a space that is other, another real space, as perfect, as meticulous, as well arrange as ours is messy, ill constructed and jumbled.
Michel Foucault.

Does this have something to do with it? Or The Aleph is about the anxiety of the poet facing the limitation of consciousness that prevent us from keeping memory of the dead and also the limited ability of language and literature to fix the ever changing universe in a poem?

I read The Aleph this afternoon after reading some of your posts.Reading Borges is always a pleasure.
 :) I’m glad to see most of the “old” NYT crowd here.



MACD AND ALL, I see a binding knot between the first and the second paragraph.I think El Aleph is both the *heterotopia* -as explained in that quote of yours, I never thought that concept existed- ,I repeat there is a close *nexo* between the heterotopia and the distress of a writer having to pick up the parts he is going to include in his story and what he´s got to leave out.Funes el Memorioso is a clear example of why this was so important to JLB.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 16, 2007, 07:41:11 PM
I read in an article on a new literary magazine from La Nacion a very interesting interview-conversation between Amis and Tomas Eloy Martinez.In this conversation Martinez says that the pilot that wrote in the air in Estrella Distante is really Raul Zurita, a Chilean poet who spent all of his Guggenheim prize money writing on the NYC skies verses that had a Biblical sound.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 17, 2007, 12:48:50 AM
Clap, clap, clap

Great posts guys. I enjoyed all of them… I will re-read TA and think a bit more about the epigraphs…

Since we can’t say or write everything at one time, we have to write or speak as if things followed each other in order when they are really simultaneous… not like this in eternity or infinite…to “find” the aleph for the poet maybe is to face the impossible (Beatriz/Borges) or to clumsily try to describe it (Carlos Argentino) ... :-\




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 17, 2007, 01:04:21 AM
re: Borges dislike of vacant lots.

The concept of the Aleph and the vacant lot seem diametrical opposites...and yet Borges seems to tie the Aleph to madness.  What's more, when the house was razed (turned into a vacant lot?), Argentino regained his sanity.

Borges also had a dislike of mirrors.  A mirror is very similar to the Aleph in that both seem to reflect eternity.

The Aleph in Kabbalism, and in mathematics as well...Aleph is related to the concept of infinity.  Not too much difference between infinity and an abyss.  Peer into either infinity or an abyss, probably the first thing you'll notice is a vanishing point.   No wonder Beatrix and Argentino were mad.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 17, 2007, 07:46:55 AM
I read in an article on a new literary magazine from La Nacion a very interesting interview-conversation between Amis and Tomas Eloy Martinez.In this conversation Martinez says that the pilot that wrote in the air in Estrella Distante is really Raul Zurita, a Chilean poet who spent all of his Guggenheim prize money writing on the NYC skies verses that had a Biblical sound.
Thanks, that makes sense ...
http://www.clippinger.com/annabelle/zurita.html
Oy! Dante again!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 17, 2007, 01:54:15 PM

But, please
don't bother,
to tell that writer
from Yoknapatawpha.


Sorry, I don't get it...never read Faulker...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 17, 2007, 07:07:26 PM
Faulkner drank while he wrote. I brought a critique ror that forum today, positive I presume but I will put in the Faulkner bag where it belongs.

"Faulkner doesn't seem to have the patience for the one word after another approach.  He might be forced to write one word after another, but those words never in the end seem to read in a way that is chronologically behaved."

Of course your second sentence remarks about what is apparently his strong suit as your other posters are mentioning.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 17, 2007, 07:37:45 PM
#240 martinbeck3

and nnyhav  re:##245      Zurita's Form: Swirling Into Meaning

"Zurita was deprived of sleep and taken out for questioning about a briefcase full of poems that he had with him.  The poems were of an experimental style and had small drawings on them.  Repeatedly he was asked by different interrogators what were the meanings of these poems.  Repeatedly he refused to explain them, ...

The danger of physical reprisal for poets who were of a collectivist sensibility was real...

...  to impose a free market economic system and at the same time to control the circulation of ideas by permitting only those that expressed individualistic values" ( Poets, vi). 
A useful question would be: how can one write poetry within such a system?  Another option to exile or to the retreat of 'creating in private circles,' is the masking or subterfuge of social critique as it appears in the poems."

(I was about to say, but what does this have to do with self-censorship?  Then she goes into it):

[Someone is telling Zurita: "get/ those evil thoughts out of your head/".   It may be Zurita censoring himself, as I suggested earlier, in which case he is willingly complying with the pressures to conform his thinking, or it may be the voices from the outside telling him what not to think.  This ambiguity does not require him to commit to either definitively, and because of this, he cannot be held accountable for a negative social commentary.  This pronoun confusion then allows for social critique but also is an effective form of self-defense against his government's harsh and often violent intolerance for critique. 

Another possible layer of meaning is situated in the poetic.  Zurita may have used ambiguity to de-center his reader for poetic purposes.  He could have been locating himself within (and straining against) a poetic tradition that identifies an absence of pronoun antecedents as a radical departure.  A reader could therefore trace his radicality to issues of  clarity, and as such, issues of style.  This allows space for the poetry to be read as elitist and individualistic--a reading quite in keeping with Pinochet's ideologies for art.  The ambiguity, the lack of easily accessible meaning narrows the scope of Zurita's readership.  It is a poetry for the literary world. ]

(But, she goes further):

[...The very presence of the notion of "recourse" in White's observation is significant.  It suggests the artistic limitations that Zurita and poets like him were facing.  Here, also we discover the editor's imprecision.  For Zurita, it is 'el Duce,' rather than 'Il Duce,'the latter of which was the term used to describe Mussolini.  White comprehends the richness of the allusion to Mussolini, but he makes the mistake of precise allocation to him.  In the reference to "el Duce" Zurita manipulates the historical memory of a leader who was so out of step with the needs of his people that they eventually murdered him by means of a brutal lynching.  That he uses allegory to talk about this leader is important.  The allusion to Pinochet is as certain as allegory allows.]


THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR INCLUDING THIS.

one post-script,"questioning about a briefcase full of poems that he had with him."   I literally had this happen to me, for attending a reading. It would have been better perhaps, since I had been severly beaten,if the police had seen to my having a physician's treatment prior to their incarcerating me  overnight, at which time I was brought out on bail by Wavy Gravy whom I knew rather as Hugh Romney. I don't think he was quite into his Wavy Gravy days quite yet.

Something for martinbeck3 --

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5052096054843836584&q=goldpants%2Bproductions


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 18, 2007, 09:16:49 AM
 […]
Subtlety is a potent method for burying critique.  One way this subtlety can be accomplished is through the use of metaphor and its potential ambiguities.  What may have been a stylistic choice for Zurita early on in his poetry turned out to be a choice that ensured his poetic (and physical) survival.   Metaphoric ambiguity became a smokescreen for Zurita, from behind which he could critique his society at length.  Metaphor was subterfuge, and mask.  […]
http://www.clippinger.com/annabelle/zurita.html

A good example of this kind of writing under a military regime, is Piglia’s "Artificial Respiration", which I think we read at the NYT Forum.

A different approach would be to ignore what is happening around, and live in an ivory tower:

[…]
But if he created a fairyland, he did not live in one, and even in the exalted last years of his life as a blind icon there were voices among his countrymen ready to remind him that he should have tried harder to use his ears. His apparently detached political position was not regarded as beyond cavil by other Argentine writers, who admired his art but questioned his relaxation into international eminence at a moment when his homeland was in the grip of terror.[…]

http://www.slate.com/id/2159221/

A third one would be exile…difficult, but imminent in my case. Not because of my writing in this forum, of course…




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 18, 2007, 06:05:57 PM
macd,re:#273
"A different approach would be to ignore what is happening around, and live in an ivory tower"


My brother referred to that as " interior migration".   Quite a large part of the North American population involves themselves with that at present.   Even these forums are a part of the exercise of avoidance.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 20, 2007, 12:34:40 PM
I also like “interior migration”; I will add it to my personal dictionary, with your brother permission. But I find it has a very different connotation than “ivory tower”.
Your reference to the US population can be applied likewise to Venezuelans. And yes, this forum is a good example…at least in my case.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 20, 2007, 12:39:24 PM
What does “leet” means in this forum… I have to confess that I could have make this question in my previous post but  in this way I may change my “newby” condition sooner :-))))))


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 20, 2007, 02:12:30 PM
macd

The term interior-migration as discussed in #255   is incorrectly perceived by the poster, since it has nothing to do with "periodicity" nor
does it imply "a group,a people" but is very much an individual decision to avoid exile; or as my brother put it, "Pull down your bamboo blinds, retire to books and typewriter,...".  He wouldn't mind you using the term correctly; he passed away at least a couple of years ago this coming September, a bit young for it with a push out of his "interior migration" which I am aware could happen to a great many more people in accord with the economic news.

Back at the time that he said it, we were of course involved with Vietnam and gradually more of Southeast Asia.  I found a way of dealing with it, when the usual periodicals do not want protest for their publication, as we have seen from Spring of 2003 until the Mid-term elections this last May   "Interior migration" then consisted of those references from,
Zurita's Form: Swirling Into Meaning.  Or, ambiguity in poetry; which I only quoted but attaching the briefest comment, about three days ago.

You can work from the common allegorical which a culture "believes"in; and then criticize that the culture does not practice it but contradicts it.

Those were  mainly suitable for "the Underground Press"  which was of course very obvious and bought hot off the press as soon as it arrived in a head-shop.

The next step is to institute a venue for the poetry reading, a friend offered me a place and the atmosphere could not have been better, it was like a traditional European coffee-house but for Americans at a time when they were listing to Bob Dylan and Joan Baez.  But, I was also offered one of those officially sanctified "High Art" readings through an art collector from a family of "industrialists" who approached me about doing a reading under the auspices of the Art Museum that she was supporting as an interim-director,asking me to bring a few others, are there other women seemed to be the question and of course there were. It was billed as Four Women Poets.

That made it more possible to initiate the coffee-house readings of poets because there was a definite tendency at the time for the male contingent competing with each other to take over the floor  as fast as they can. It balanced out. But that is why I used the example (last year at nytimes.com) of Denise Levertov getting up at the Six Gallery in San Francisco, in regard to the first public reading that Ginsberg did of Howl(and which led to an obscenity trial).  Although readings like I discuss in above paragraph had been arranged by women of influence in the San Francisco community, the arrival of East coast Beat poets moving into the area and being received by the local California Renaissance poets meant a double portion of male poets on that scene.  I've talked to Gary Snyder, about what that was like, on his numerous reading tours over the years when I'd go visit him.  What Denise did, who is a very mild mannered lady, was to get up, push her way to the mike, and proceed to read with numerous expletives men were not used to hearing ladies use in public or in poetry, which shocked them into accepting her presence. She eventually worked in collaboration with Ginsberg  on some religious issues relating to the war, like a translation of the Bhagavad Gita.

But in submitting my poems for criticism before any of the rest of the above decisions, when establishment publication of confirmation of your position was out of the question, I came into a nice arrangements of booking readings that actually went into the English departments of college and universities in which very experienced and accepted poets who were conscientious objectors or war resisters, although apriori by their maturity accepted by the establishment, were able to use the academic format in which to speak out against the war.

Of course this was followed by something else,or actually an overlap:

The San Francisco Gate did a piece on all this and spoke to a few poets of the time & place. Here's Lawrence Ferlinghetti.
[I was hoping that the photo would come through. Maybe I'll have to follow recommendations to put it in with my posting name as discussion in Meander overnight(?) because there is a lot of difference between how he looked when he wrote Coney Island of the Mind and how people later saw him at City Lights]


"Before, up through the Human Be-In, the Haight was really sort of innocent, clean. I remember the early Jefferson Airplane, which was very lyrical. I was going to Fillmore quite a bit. (Poet) Andre Voznesensky and I performed in between sets of the Jefferson Airplane at the old Fillmore. Bill Graham generously offered us the stage. I was reading translations of Andre's poems. He was doing them in Russian. There was a light show going on.
I was onstage right next to Allen Ginsberg at the Human Be-In. I had an autoharp, which I was playing in those days. Luckily, they never allowed me to perform because it would've been a disaster. There was a sea of 10,000 faces. Don't know how many they actually counted. I remember, in the sunset, this lone parachutist descended on the crowd."

When Ferlinghetti says, " I was reading translations of Andre's poems. He was doing them in Russian. There was a light show going on..."  this was in fact exactly what we were doing besides reading our own poems in a coffee house open reading.  We read Michaelangelo, because we had someone who could read it properly in Italian when I read the translation.  I read Karl Solomon, because of his influence upon Ginsberg, little known about, when reading Ginsberg poems which were based on Congregational prayer in Hebrew as the format he employs. etc.

And life goes on to the next disruption.  Speaking of which, in reading over some review last night, I realize now that the following period in the Seventies came up with a "modernist" style of metafiction, and people who have written since seem to get stuck into what was fashionable when they began so they continue being disruptive rather than productive to suit the present time.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 22, 2007, 01:50:38 PM
Three short comments on The Aleph:


First is a very charming scene where Borges has Borges comment on his sense of wonder upon discovering that letter in books didn't rearrange themselves when the book closed.  I wonder if Borges is commenting on the writing process and the power of the author exerted over the word. 

Second is an amusing joke where Borges comments that he was passed over for the National Book Prize and the madman got second.  I think that was the year Borges won second prize for one of his own stories.

Third, if you were to find an Aleph (much potential for madness) and gazed into the thing, would you have to know what to look at?


In reference to The Sharper's Cards (from a footnote):

                                 "I have not managed to see Daneri for quite a long
time; the newspapers say he'll soon be giving us another volume. His happy
pen (belabored no longer by the Aleph) has been consecrated to setting the
compendia of Dr. Acevedo Diaz to verse."

Eduardo Acevedo Diaz (1882-1959) won the Premio Nacional
for his novel Cancha Larga; JLB's entry that year,
The Garden of Forking Paths, won second prize.

I remember years ago being in Spain and watching a couple of sharpers at work. No-one was to know they were together. One of the guys, well-dressed, respectable looking would be playing and winning money (guess your card from about three on the table) and then would walk away holding the small wad. Of course, this was to tempt onlookers to have a go and they would for the most part always lose. I guess they travelled through most of Spain so that by the time they got back to the beginning again there was a whole new bunch of tourists available to fall for the scam.       


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 22, 2007, 02:40:29 PM
Beppo...The scam aspect is one I hadn't thought of.  Makes it even funnier.  Of course, I had to look and see if Borges actually had written a story called "The Sharper's Cards."   I didn't think so, but one can wish.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 22, 2007, 03:24:05 PM
Lhoffman

I'm sure one of the onlookers during a busy spell where the card guy's back was momentarily turned tried to bend one of the corners of the cards ever so slightly and got caught and then all hell broke loose with the dismayed trickster shouting at the guy, "How could you! I'm trying to make an honest living here and you attempt to cheat me?"  It was quite funny.   


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 22, 2007, 03:37:20 PM
Edits & Quotes from Edwin Williamson's recent biography on Borges

Borges was romantically linked with Estela Canto at the time of writing The Aleph. She had "had affairs with writers but preferred men of action, and when she met Borges, she was involved with an Englishman, 'a British spy who constantly travelled all over Argentina and Brazil.'" He would regularly turn up at Canto's apartment, leave a book with the maid and then disappear preferring to meet later. "He told Estela that he was writing a story about a place that contained all the other places in the world and that he would like her to help him with the enumeration of all the places he wanted to name. She declined thinking it a ploy to engage the attention of budding poetesses." Over the next couple of months Borges would repeat the request several times over. He compared her smile to that of the Mona Lisa and her movements to that of a knight on a chess board.

http://www.delos.fantascienza.com/delos53/img/borges/borges-estela_canto.jpg



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 22, 2007, 04:17:45 PM
[...]
Alas I haven't read any Dante.
And alack.

Borges aside, Inferno is must reading, like Homer & Virgil, like Cervantes & Shakespeare. Borges not aside, even more so (though I'd throw in the sagas as well). Nothing to do with JLB's bio, everything to do with his reading, and writing, life.

Thanks nnyhav - it's been awhile since I've heard that word.

I've got (and read up to a point) the most recent translation of Don Quixote by Edith Grossman but struggling with translations of Homer and Virgil. (I've got Chapman's Homer and paperback versions of H&V - but the latter two (excuses!excuses!) I struggle to get out to. Any thoughts on comely translations?



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 22, 2007, 04:40:28 PM
[...]
Alas I haven't read any Dante.
And alack.

Borges aside, Inferno is must reading, like Homer & Virgil, like Cervantes & Shakespeare. Borges not aside, even more so (though I'd throw in the sagas as well). Nothing to do with JLB's bio, everything to do with his reading, and writing, life.
Thanks nnyhav - it's been awhile since I've heard that word.

I've got (and read up to a point) the most recent translation of Don Quixote by Edith Grossman but struggling with translations of Homer and Virgil. (I've got Chapman's Homer and paperback versions of H&V - but the latter two (excuses!excuses!) I struggle to get out to. Any thoughts on comely translations?
Homer: Robert Fagles (we can say that here[1]) (Chapman is like doing Cervantes via Smollett, historical interest primarily)
Virgil: I read Robert Fitzgerald, but Fagles has a new version
Dante: Ciardi for the whole Commedia (helpful notes); for just Inferno, shop to taste
(Cervantes: I went with Putnam [Sam, Hilary's dad] on Nabokov's advice, pre-Grossman)
Some swear by Mandelstam (sp?)

[1] in early NYTBF it was he who could not be named (bad word filters)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 22, 2007, 05:03:04 PM
[...]
Alas I haven't read any Dante.
And alack.

Borges aside, Inferno is must reading, like Homer & Virgil, like Cervantes & Shakespeare. Borges not aside, even more so (though I'd throw in the sagas as well). Nothing to do with JLB's bio, everything to do with his reading, and writing, life.
Thanks nnyhav - it's been awhile since I've heard that word.

I've got (and read up to a point) the most recent translation of Don Quixote by Edith Grossman but struggling with translations of Homer and Virgil. (I've got Chapman's Homer and paperback versions of H&V - but the latter two (excuses!excuses!) I struggle to get out to. Any thoughts on comely translations?
Homer: Robert Fagles (we can say that here[1]) (Chapman is like doing Cervantes via Smollett, historical interest primarily)
Virgil: I read Robert Fitzgerald, but Fagles has a new version
Dante: Ciardi for the whole Commedia (helpful notes); for just Inferno, shop to taste
(Cervantes: I went with Putnam [Sam, Hilary's dad] on Nabokov's advice, pre-Grossman)
Some swear by Mandelstam (sp?)

[1] in early NYTBF it was he who could not be named (bad word filters)

Thanks²


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 22, 2007, 05:28:50 PM
beppo,re:#262

Good looking girl that Estela Canto


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 22, 2007, 05:33:08 PM
nnyhav and beppo,

I remember John Ciardi from about the time when he began that project, I read him faithfully every week in the Saturday Review of Literature. That was during the John Birch era when they decided which books were fit for libraries and William Buckley,jr. was on tv teaching us extravagantly erudite words we should know if we were to be anybody (as he looked down his nose at his guest, to be sure the invited guest was beneath him?).


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 22, 2007, 05:35:48 PM
I have the Fagles of Virgil and Homer....both very nice. 



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 22, 2007, 05:48:31 PM
beppo,re:#262

Good looking girl that Estela Canto

Yes - she's pretty. That's a book by Henry James Miss Canto is holding to the camera which may mean the photograph is a bit of a joke. Williamson writes: "She could not abide Henry James finding him convoluted, inhibited, fearful, but this view infuriated Borges, who would counter with sarcastic remarks about her literary tastes."   


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 22, 2007, 07:40:18 PM
NNYHAV,Master the Linkmeister,as usual a masterful link,where,btw, I picked this Zurita verse:

 " As in a dream, when all was lost Zurita told me

 it was going to clear

 because in the depths of the night

 he had seen a star.Then

 huddled against the boat's planked deck

 it seemed that the light again

 lit my lifeless eyes.

That's all it took.  I was invaded by sleep:

    (Anteparadise, 5).

The Bolaño book we read here where he has this pilot that writes in the sky the one that Tomas Eloy Martinez says he is Zurita.Well, the book is "Distant Star".



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 22, 2007, 07:57:27 PM
MADDIE,that´s quite a character Wavy Gravy.Don´t tell me you also knew him!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 22, 2007, 08:14:28 PM
I think that the Beatriz mentioned in EA is Beatriz Bibiloni Webster who JLB was having an affair at the time and being a married woman he changes her Italian surname,Bibiloni, to Viterbo.Borges has a poem dedicated to this woman.He also wrote Inferno,1,32 in El Hacedor so undoubtedly Dante was in his mind.

There is now a big commotion because in the Auster-Eloy Martinez interview the former said that Borges was a minor writer who did well in writing poems and short stories as he would never have been able to write a novel.

The La Nacion (trans.NYT) blog is burning.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 22, 2007, 08:18:11 PM
MACD, you surely think *how is it possible to write about LatAm lit. at a time like this!*. I heard this morning over the radio that Chavez is going to put all minors from 3 years on in the custody of the state and their parents would only be able to see them two days a month.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 22, 2007, 09:31:06 PM
I read in an article on a new literary magazine from La Nacion a very interesting interview-conversation between Amis and Tomas Eloy Martinez.In this conversation Martinez says that the pilot that wrote in the air in Estrella Distante is really Raul Zurita, a Chilean poet who spent all of his Guggenheim prize money writing on the NYC skies verses that had a Biblical sound.
[...]
There is now a big commotion because in the Auster-Eloy Martinez interview the former said that Borges was a minor writer who did well in writing poems and short stories as he would never have been able to write a novel.

The La Nacion (trans.NYT) blog is burning.
In Paul Auster's case, NYT stands for New York Trilogy, which pales before anything of Borges'. But if he can pull off the trick of changing from Martin Amis into Paul Auster in the course of an interview, my hat's off to him.

Googlenewssearching "La Nacion" and "Borges" only came up with
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-6868078,00.html
'Jorge' Lucas Borges is back.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 23, 2007, 08:06:58 AM
I think that the Beatriz mentioned in EA is Beatriz Bibiloni Webster who JLB was having an affair at the time and being a married woman he changes her Italian surname,Bibiloni, to Viterbo.Borges has a poem dedicated to this woman.He also wrote Inferno,1,32 in El Hacedor so undoubtedly Dante was in his mind.

There is now a big commotion because in the Auster-Eloy Martinez interview the former said that Borges was a minor writer who did well in writing poems and short stories as he would never have been able to write a novel.

The La Nacion (trans.NYT) blog is burning.


Well,that explains his exercise in changing one thing for another and, personally, I've been saying there is a heavier meaning to the Aleph, that is the tradition of replacement of one letter of the alphabet for another or it having a number as well, and that it should be looked at "kabbalistically" even if Borges is just playing with it experimentally as an idea but thus far we've come up with a number of things that he substitutes to stand in for another that is actually happening in his life but he fictionalizes it, thus alarming the characters a little bit which is probably his emotional intent anyway because he reveals them --within literature--and they know it but he can always claim nonsence "this is just a short story that I tossed off. I made it up. It couldn't possibly be you." 
I had a similar experience with hints in an Edith Wharton sketch for a story, that she dropped, as female writers are more likely to do when they have a self-revelatory juicy story to tell as an emotional catharsis but then find it too revealing to continue, because it dealt with incest(it also dealt with a Beatrice/Beatriz, if I remember correctly, and I never thought previously why she would have referred to herself in that way).  But there is not a detail, including title and names of characters that does not have  a significance, although "occulted" hidden from the casual eye or casual reader. After several years, having forgotten until yesterday or so about Wharton's concept, I would have contented myself that it was just a fiction of an idea; when, suddenly I read a new input that her biographer acknowledged her clues reveal she was attempting to reveal an indelicate situation.  Chalk it up, to women having been raised to have a sense of shame, puder(pudice, pudicitia). They are educated differently then men, to retain the illusion and the differentiation.  If that is done effectively, the woman never even catches on that this is all an imposed system of values.  I once tried to explain this to a young male homosexual friend, whose parents had given him growth hormones when he was young, in hopes of emphasizing his masculinity, in the meanwhile he adopted many female mannerisms and I explained to him that women do exactly the same and that we are taught to be women, so that from a female point of view we should not take it too seriously where it co-opts advantages and discriminates against us but we should at least be aware of it.

The Biblioni to Viterbo transliteration was something I did check out because it nagged at me that I knew it from somewhere, yes, exactly where the pudencia was being inculcated; and I was surprised that lhoffman didn't pursue it (as she had with why heresy was out of the question) when she thought she might but Viterbo in Italy is of course the location of the Palace of the Popes, to which they relocated at a moment in history where it might be wise to go north.   

And, in answer to your question, yes, I knew him but as Hugh Romney because in those days he was too young to have come up with his Wavy Gravy potential(which is possibly why his taking a cover-name at that time like an incognito that would make his parents satisfied; although about the story of getting it from B.B.King on acid is something else again), since he was still improvising and not even thinking ahead enough to check out a phone book and discover where Columbia University was, something I had been discussing in Meander for Dzimas who is a Jack Kerouac fan. Hugh, or WG could simply have phoned and asked them where Ginsberg was reading that night but instead, being Hugh, he simply  presumed it was in Greenwich Village although he did not have the faintest idea where in the Village nor his way around and so that was how we met.    Although I lived within blocks of where Ginsberg was living, I had no idea where he was coming and going because frankly I did not meet him while I lived there because he and Burroughs and Corso took their trip to #9 Rue de l'Coeur, Paris from where they went on to Tangier although Corso took off for Lappland for godsake as like elportenito he was an experienced merchant seaman.

Hugh or WG overcame his ignorance of Village geography by the time that I returned on a trip for a "friend" of mine (my husband's mistress) who was relocating to New York with her kids whom I flew with out there; in a few days, I discovered that Romney had relocated to the Village right on the corner where everything was happening,Positively Fourth Street,and ran another small coffee house/club where Bob Dylan might drop by, I should be so lucky. But in any case, we both missed the famed Alan Ginsburg Reading( with Corso ) at McMillan Hall/Library on Columbia U. campus for  which Hugh had been searching unaware he was downtown and it was uptown.

Gregory Corso moved into Hotel Chelsea, I went back to the Midwest and caught up with him later after he had begun the move into his daughter's house probably aware that he was preparing for his last illness.     

Anyway, you are the first to break the Hugo Chavez news here, not a sign of it yet in the usual sources.

But, I have to tell Beppo that I agree with  Estela Canto,"...could not abide Henry James finding him convoluted, inhibited, fearful," and instead of being sarcastic about her literary tastes,Borges should have "listened" to what she was trying to tell him and to which he was deaf as well as blind.  For instance, James' "Kerouacian" sentences from a pre-Kerouac era. Notice, without knowing whether she read  James in English or in translation, you yourself prefer to write Spanish in succinct, to the point, expression.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on August 23, 2007, 08:36:40 AM
MACD, you surely think *how is it possible to write about LatAm lit. at a time like this!*.

Yes. I sit in front of the computer with the intention to post or open a book with the intention to read,  just to realize that my mind is somewhere else.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 23, 2007, 09:17:00 AM
Back to The Aleph ... I just read Danilo Kis' The Encyclopedia of the Dead, and found it one of the better commentaries (or mirrors) on the former.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 23, 2007, 02:15:34 PM
nnyhav

Thanks again - got all those Fagles' today.

The Ciardi translation of Dante (unexpectedly) was there as well but I could not remember if that was the person you mentioned so left it went back the next day and purchased.





 

 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 23, 2007, 04:55:28 PM
nnyhv,

I have a hard time getting a fix on Paul Auster, it seems; until I look for him under "movies".  But this is because for years, I have had him confused with Howard Auster.  One can not find much of anything about him other than from one source and that is because he was like Caesar's wife beyond reproach. Thought you might to peruse some of these. When a photo goes missing, there is an accompanying link.

http://theasylum.wordpress.com/tag/vidal-gore/    pictures but not as good on auster

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/books/2006/11/jay_parini.html

http://www.pierretristam.com/Bobst/07/bb010207.htm
A Vidal Bit: Howard's End
“So this is the big fucking deal everyone goes on about?”

For more than half a century, Gore Vidal lived with his companion Howard Auster, mostly in Ravello, Italy, at times in Los Angeles. Auster was not the love of his life. Readers of "Palimpsest," Vidal’s first memoir (1995), might remember that Jimmy Trimble was—a 20-year-old killed in the wasteful, pointless battle for Iwo Jima. In that book Vidal let on that he slept with thousands of men, but lived sexlessly, but no less fondly, with Howard. Howard died in November 2003, from cancer and other illnesses. As Tennessee Williams once wrote, “Vidal is not likable, at least not in any familiar way, but he and [Paul] Bowles are the two most honest savages I have met.” It’s the savagery I’ve always admired in Vidal, savagely witty as no other American writer of the last few decades. Savagery and, for the last few years (as in Inventing a Nation, his book on the Founders) surprising tenderness. Here, from "Point to Point Navigation," his latest memoir (Doubleday), is his account of the death of Howard Auster, as savage and poignant an account of a companion’s death as you’re likely to read. Leto is the nurse.

 

“Don’t you want to talk?” I asked. There was a long silence, then he shook his head.

“Why not?”

“Because,” he said, “there’s too much to say.” […]

 
Vidal and Auster in Arizona during the filming of "Billy the Kid," with Val Kilmer, a movie Vidal wrote. 
Leto arrived with his supper which he put on a table in front of the armchair. I went downstairs to get a sandwich. A few minutes later Leto shouted, “Mr. Auster has stopped breathing!” I ran upstairs. He was still in the armchair, facing the window. He had eaten most of his dinner. In front of him was a tin of some vitamin concoction that he liked. Leto said, “He just drank that drink and took a deep breath and then he—stopped.” I sat in the chair opposite and did all the things that we have learned from movies to determine death. I passed a hand in front of his mouth and nose. Nothing stirred. Montaigne requires that I describe more how he looked—rather than how I felt. The eyes were open and very clear. I’d forgotten what a beautiful gray they were—illness and medicine had regularly glazed them over; now they were bright and attentive and he was watching me, consciously, through long lashes. Lungs, heart may have stopped but the optic nerves were still sending messages to a brain which, those who should know tell us, does not immediately shut down. So we stared at each other at the end. He had been sitting straight up when I came in the room but now, very slightly he slumped to the left in his chair. Leto had gone to ring 911. “Can you hear me?” I asked him. “I know you can see me.” Although there was no breath for speech, he now had a sort of wry wiseguy from the Bronx expression on his face which said clearly to me who knew all his expressions, “So this is the big fucking deal everyone goes on about.” In my general state of confusion I was oddly comforted that in death he was in perfect easy character much as he would have been that evening if he had lived to sing “ New York,” the song the people in Ravello often begged him to sing fortissimo.

Jim Carney who works for us at times kept me company while the newly arrived team from 911 hurled him onto the wood floor time and again. If he’d had a spark of life, all that pummeling would have extinguished it. When they finally finished, I thought they were going to take him to whatever hospital they had come from, so I said, “Could you take him instead to Cedars-Sinai, that’s his regular hospital.” One of the medics said, “He’s not going to a hospital, he’s going to the mortuary.”

Then Jim and I were left with Howard on the floor between us covered by a sheet, black socks on his feet. Leto wept. I envied him—the WASP glacier had closed over my head. It took over an hour for the ambulance to come take him away. During the wait, I pulled back the sheet for one last look at those clear gray eyes—could they still see?—but the substance of the eyeballs had collapsed and two gelatinous streaks of the sort snails make had coursed down his cheeks. I would not see him in any corporal form again until the ashes at Rock Creek Cemetery.

But, curiously, last night I finally saw him clearly in a dream-a frustration dream. We were in a side street in Rome where the entrance to our old flat should have been but was nowhere to be found. Yet every- thing else was as it should have been, including a greengrocer whom we knew. Howard had grabbed a handful of fava beans and started to shell them. For what it is worth the fava bean itself resembles a miniature fetus and the Pythagorean cult believed that each bean contains the soul of someone dead, ready to be reborn. In the dream Howard was eating these forbidden fetuses—preparing for rebirth?
 
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                                                                                                   http://stevenba.blogspot.com/2007/04/last-mystery-of-vidal.html


http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20061113_growing_up_with_gore_vidal/           more vidal less auster


http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/03/01/home/vidal-palimpsest.html?_


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 24, 2007, 12:14:57 PM
NNYHAV, o.k. Amis-Auster.whatever!!!!!!! :)

One day I will get some courage together and attack that Trilogy.I know I MUST.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 24, 2007, 12:19:26 PM
MACD:

VENEZUELA.

The last I heard is that Chavez in his latest TV program "Haló Presidente" said that everybody had to change the time back 1 hour so that they will get up and go to sleep with the sun and thus be more alert and adjust the biological clock to the sun.As if Venezuela was fkng Findland! He spoke for 6 hours,didn´t he?  He´s worst than Fidel,apparently this one is gagga from too much anesthesia (as if he ahd been anything else ever).


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 24, 2007, 12:26:38 PM
MADDIE, Wharton shared with Borges the prudery of those years.Not just because she was a woman.

After reading about Kerouac and all those guys I feel like reading the Beatnik group lit. 

I would give years of my life-sex included,like Vidal- to live in that villa La Rondiania in Ravello or the Axel Munthe house in Capri (San Michele). 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 24, 2007, 12:51:39 PM
Martin, tell me about César Aira. Bolaño seemed to think well of him:
http://bostonreview.net/BR32.4/article_estrada.php
Not a lot in translation; what's best?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on August 25, 2007, 12:04:03 PM
This week's Magazine section of the New York Times has an in depth piece about Jose Saramago.  Here's the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/magazine/26saramago-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&ref=magazine&pagewanted=all

Enjoy.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 25, 2007, 12:46:41 PM
Thanks, donotremove


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 25, 2007, 04:11:19 PM
NNYHAV, I didn´t read Aira but here critics think the world of him.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 25, 2007, 04:23:17 PM
DON, thank you. I am now totally disconnected from the NYT and would never have found it by myself.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 25, 2007, 05:02:17 PM
martinbeck3

I know the feeling. They don't respond to you personally, if you write to them when something is amiss, you get a format in reply.  After awhile I figure out the problem* and write a nice letter of apology to my secret person who came to work there somewhat recently and will spend time going through the flack with me and always stating, "that's all right, I'm new here, what better way to learn where everything is?".

They have by the way changed quite a few things.

I am still looking for where I put the interior photos of that house in Amalfi. I never could figure out how the heck they climbed up to it, even when I saw the  back view which shows the walks, etc. You apparently drive up  just to a certain area and then have to walk. Since he has a bum knee, as it said in one of the articles, and has it since he was quite young, it must have been sheer hell (but privacy). Although he had very unusual guests to say the least, that you would never suspect would make friends with a writer who was such a carmudgeon, until you think about  it a minute and realize they all had some common politics. Mostly bi-coastals as we say here. People who live on either the West or East coast but for professional reasons also have to travel to the other; which is why Vidal kept a house in the Hollywood Hills.   I always lose my sense of direction there because I became used to the ocean being on the other side directionally.


I'm half way through the Saramago article. By the way, how did his,
"The Gospel According to Jesus Christ" compare to or with Nikos Kazantzakis'?

"problem"* such as in the nytimes.com article on Saramago where they speak of his admiration for Michaelangelo's  "Laurentian" Library stairway at San Lorenzo. For a moment, you note the incongruity of Laurentian which usually refers to D.H. Lawrence who often was called Don Lorenzo when he was in Taos, New Mexico at Mabel Dodge's. So, you hit the feature that the nytimes.com installed which define things to readers who may be unfamiliar with the term, and....

( I beg you to hit this word: Laurentian, and read the response which they could have edited as nonapplicable to the subject.  Even if it should turn out that I discover that they have a library devoted to  D.H.Lawrence at Florence something I shall check out right now. If it is that, I shall say thrice mea culpas and maybe an Ave or something.)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 25, 2007, 05:14:36 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurentian_Library

I have said my three mea culpas because --The Library conserves the Nahuatl Florentine Codex, the major source of pre-Conquest Aztec life. Among other well-known manuscripts in the Laurentian Library are the sixth-century Syriac Rabula Gospels; the Codex Amiatinus, which contains the earliest surviving manuscript of the Latin Vulgate Bible; the Squarcialupi Codex, an important early musical manuscript; and the fragmentary Erinna papyrus containing poems of the friend of Sappho.

And here is the staircase: http://www.abcgallery.com/M/michelangelo/michelangelo66.html

and:  http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/giorgio.vasari/michel/pic75.htm


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on August 25, 2007, 10:29:44 PM
Magic Realism

“I don’t care much for facts, am not much interested in them, you can’t stand a fact up, you got to prop it up, and when you move to one side a little and look at it from that angle, it’s not thick enough to cast a shadow in that direction.”—William Faulkner to Malcolm Cowley

(“As we read these words, written more than forty years ago, in the 1980s, we see how Faulkner created such joy for generations of great Latin-American novelists. That “disregard” for fact gave him weight and standing, since idea, conception, strategy were all. Garcia Márquez, Fuentes, Vargas Llosa, Donoso, and before them all, Borges, could create their invented worlds out of Faulkner’s “I don’t care much for facts.”—Frederick R. Karl, William Faulkner: American Writer, New York: Ballantine: 1989, 739.)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 26, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
Funny, I just blogged on Carpentier's The Kingdom of This World, wherein he prefatorily coined "lo real maravilloso"; I know GGM attributes this all to him & to Faulkner, but I don't know about any interaction between the latter, whereas Carpentier did have dealings with the Surrealists ...

I can't say that either Faulkner or the Magic Realists are my cuppa. Anyway, something on Faulkner as export (France, Spain, Italy):
http://nnyhav.blogspot.com/2007/02/multiple-perspectives-of-faulkner.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 26, 2007, 01:11:54 AM
nnyhav,

Italo Calvino, The Baron in the Trees, was my favorite circa 1983?

"it's what followed that grabs me -- Primo Levi, Bassani, Lampedusa, Eco."     Ditto !


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 26, 2007, 03:22:48 PM
MADDIE ET AL. , loved the word *bi-coastal* .Look. if there weren´t any books left, still the library would be worth if only for the staircase:

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/giorgio.vasari/michel/pic75.htm
 

I didn´t read Kazantzakis but saw the film on Jesus.I think Saramgo´s novel is beautiful and both his and K´s thesis do not defer that much.They are closer to reality than whatever the Catholic religion has to say. 

There is a story by Borges "El milagro secreto"(Ficciones) and also in "Tres versiones de Judas" from where both K and Saramago could have taken a few ideas for their gospels.

Undoubtedly both have been inspired by *adopcionism*:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoptionism


NNYHAV Guess what  ? Gaitan the Argie.rugby player nearly died of a heart attack of some awful cause but THAT is a miracle so the doctors said.

...and... Alejo Carpentier defined clearly what the Real Maravilloso was in The Kingdom of this World and guess what? The white people that ran away from Haiti during the revolution went to live in New Orleans .And this is history.

Hence no wonder Faulkner has that magic strain to his voice. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 26, 2007, 06:54:21 PM
martinbeck3,

Not only the white people. Haiti is a peculiar place, today one half of Santo Domingo.  Once it was San Domingue. The revolution against the French as such devolved under Black former slave leadership was a real slave revolt and therefore the  next rank down the ladder was what some in New Orleans would at the time call mestizos because it took awhile for the city to turn French again and the people were then known as Gens Libres de Colour. The flack starts when Creoles insist that they being white are the only Creoles (and other whites who do not live there believe them)and that there are no Creoles of color. A creole is defined according to the old and lasting tradition as an American (either continent) of European ancestry born over here.

In the case of Haiti/San Domingue, they definitely were. They are an interesting people. Especially when it came  to defending the city against the British, when they were a resident population that had their military corps as Free People of Color.  Lieut-General Russell Honore, seen restoring order to New Orleans following Katrina is one of these descendents. He knew his role was to assert authority contrary to white Marines,etc. who are conditioned to respond to command according to hierarchy and he used it because they were letting their difference get to them in how they related to the emergency-deprived citizens.

What I am saying is that hundreds, I do not know specific numbers anymore and it could be in the thousands of Free People of Color fled the massacre of the slave uprising in Haiti and came to New Orleans where they had to start over and find something to do for a livelihood (because their property was confiscated).   Contrary to Western preferences of belief, this is a typical "class" revolution, class-warfare. People prefer to think that this does not exist so they are not being taught that about it, in  this northern part of the Americas.

One of the hardest thing for people to get a handle on was when we discussed a little book that won a Pen Award, by Edward P. Jones, of Richmond,Virginia, The Known World, in the nytimes. book forum/fiction, or discussion of the month, whatever.  The readers, though getting emotionally empathetic with some of the pathos gone bath water, until they threw the baby out, could not seem to wrap their heads around the idea that in this period, before Emancipation , when free people were still sold back into slavery, there was an entire class of African-Americans who owned slaves.       The idea was somehow offensive to them as white people because it suggests something.  What was offensive to me, is the recognition all around me that Free People were sold back into slavery by bounty hunters who didn't care who they picked up.  I just happen to live in one of those places on the route of the Underground Railway where this was the average possibility and took place in my neighborhood during the period of Abolitionism.

Incidentally, following the original 1802 massacre by the Black slaves in Haiti, the massacre has been a recurrent event. Five years ago, before they could get the Bicentennial Celebration of the Revolution against the French off the ground, the Bush administration involved itself by "liberating" a few of their hostages in Federal custody from the S.A. drug trade and sending them into Haiti to start a panic of violence.

The official account in wikipedia for instance, in English, refers to this judiciously as " a local militia hostile to Aristide capturing the city(of Gonaives) and driving out the police force". The Haitian community in New York can tell you differently. Before he left office, Secretary of State Colin Powell showed his successor to be, Condileeza Rice, the ropes of how these things are  handled. They had the kidnapped Aristide(former priest) delivered to them, they told him what was The Plan, that he would never see his homeland again, in fact he was not to set his foot in this hemisphere again. Wikipedia tells me, he went to Venezuela. Amy Goodman was called by a friend to witness what would occur when he took a private plane into central Africa and rescued Aristide who called him on a cell-phone. Ms. Goodman did not mention Venezuela. How does this hype by two secretaries of State add up? 



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 26, 2007, 08:47:05 PM
[...]I didn´t read Kazantzakis but saw the film on Jesus.I think Saramgo´s novel is beautiful and both his and K´s thesis do not defer that much.They are closer to reality than whatever the Catholic religion has to say. 

There is a story by Borges "El milagro secreto"(Ficciones) and also in "Tres versiones de Judas" from where both K and Saramago could have taken a few ideas for their gospels.
Haven't read either one yet (Saramago's on the list well before Kazantzakis) but I have read Mario Brelich's The Work of Betrayal of which I once blogged: "The most challenging, and ambitious, read of the month was an exigetical novel, Mario Brelich's The Work of Betrayal, which puts Poe's Dupin as hermeneutic dick on the case of Jesus and Judas, a different reconciliation of History, Myth, and Psychology, arguing that the truth resides in Gospel lacunae and apparent inconsistencies; less precise than Poe (and more Jesuitical than Dupin) and certainly less concise than Borges' 3 Versions, which it might be said to combine and elaborate." And I am currently reading Borislav Pekic's The Time of Miracles. Seem to be more versions than a gnostic can keep track of ...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 26, 2007, 10:57:09 PM
martinbeck3,
This is my consensus of the article on Jose Saramago by Fernanda Eberstadt, publishin the Sunday Magazine at The New York Times


“The Gospel” polarized readers, both in Portugal and abroad, and led to Saramago’s self-imposed symbolic exile in the Canary Islands. pg/7

[which goes along way to explaining what Fernanda Eberstadt said on pg/2]:

...a pied-à-terre in a modern middle-class neighborhood of Lisbon. Inside, the house, shuttered dark against the encroaching sunlight, is as impersonal as a hotel suite. Virtually the only books on the living-room shelves are those by the author himself. (His compound in the Canary Islands, by contrast, has a university-size library, which he makes available to students.)

[I had figured immediately    on page 2 that if the government is going to confiscate his books to punish him, he leaves them with those books in Portugal which he can always replace with his publisher, although he probably has them already at his residence in the Canary Islands.  I can say that because I also had a grandfather who was a pig farmer on the kind of scale you'd expect in Portugal

And then the article ends with Fernanda Eberstadt  saying,"of proofreaders with the power to overturn history with an inserted “not.” (and I am wondering who the heck did the proof-reading over at the nytimes.com magazine  for Sunday? It gets worse and worse each year.)]


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 27, 2007, 01:24:31 PM
MADDIE, try reading The New Yorker. I don´t care anymore for the NYT there´s something rotten there,included the review of Black Book.

NNYAV, what is the *thing* below your name ? Are you a gnostic?   


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 27, 2007, 02:38:39 PM
NNYAV, what is the *thing* below your name ? Are you a gnostic?   
What *thing*?
I am agnostic. (I think.)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 27, 2007, 03:49:52 PM
The *thing* is that sort of array of ruins like right where I put my avatar,well,you put that *thing*.

So, you presume you are a gnostic which is a perfect answer for a gnostic.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 27, 2007, 03:54:49 PM
Oh, *that* *thing* ... Magritte's The Art of Conversation (two tiny figures nearly discernible at its base). My anthropologies (sorry, man).

And a gnostic agnostic? I dunno.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 27, 2007, 04:25:06 PM
[...] Ashbery as their "poet laureate" [...]
Pugey, I just know you find this somehow relevant to LatAmLit. Please explain to those of us who don't.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 27, 2007, 05:12:41 PM
"Of course, we all know that there is only one requirement for U.S. poet laureate: no gays." 

Untrue at best. Now, you will ask me who they are. And after  naming a few, you will accuse me of "outting" them.  Forget it.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 27, 2007, 07:06:08 PM

....Now, you will ask me who they are. And after  naming a few, you will accuse me of "outting" them.  Forget it.

It's not as if you had inside information or anything. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on August 27, 2007, 07:22:43 PM
[...] Ashbery as their "poet laureate" [...]
Pugey, I just know you find this somehow relevant to LatAmLit. Please explain to those of us who don't.

There is the "remote" possibility that there may be in the vast continent of South America a "gay" poet or two.

Maybe even a couple of SA forum members who are members of the GLBT community. I know that the recent Rio celebration had two or three hundred thousand gays celebrating Mardi Gras dontchaknow.

I 've gone through all the SA postings and as far as I can see there's been no gay lit discussions to mention.

I don't know why this so. Is it the "muy macho" stereotype?

You'll have to admit that the attitude of both the right and left in various SA countries and dictatorships isn't very incouraging for gay lit or gay poetry.

The news that John Ashbery may be the next Poet Laureate of the US is good news for everybody -- except homophobic individuals like Madame Mad and Detective_Winslow.

If this news can in any way further the rights of GLBT North and South American poets and writers, then I think my NYTimes message is relevant to SA Literature...

Tell me why it isn't.

If there are any GLBT SA Lit forum members online, then I think they have the right to know what's happening here in the USA in regard to gay lit as well as to the magic realism note I posted earlier.

"Don't ask don't tell" may be military law -- but Literature is not run by a junta.










Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 27, 2007, 07:57:18 PM

....Now, you will ask me who they are. And after  naming a few, you will accuse me of "outting" them.  Forget it.

It's not as if you had inside information or anything. 


That's very peculiar because it suggests how little you are in the know.  Contrary to the position taken by both you and the poetaster, I have never known any American poets who hid in the closet which is a pretty funny metaphor as it  tickles me because it is somewhat the reverse.


 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 27, 2007, 08:58:35 PM
That's very peculiar because it suggests how little you are in the know.  Contrary to the position taken by both you and the poetaster, I have never known any American poets who hid in the closet which is a pretty funny metaphor as it  tickles me because it is somewhat the reverse.

Peculiar....that's me all over.  But it has been my experience that those who are truly "in the know" don't feel the need to constantly inform others of their very special connections.   You are quick to disparage the work of others (when you're not posting it as your own), but I've yet to see any works you've composed.

I know you went to Princeton and all...perhaps you were legacy?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 27, 2007, 10:10:44 PM
[...] Ashbery as their "poet laureate" [...]
Pugey, I just know you find this somehow relevant to LatAmLit. Please explain to those of us who don't.
There is the "remote" possibility that there may be in the vast continent of South America a "gay" poet or two.

Maybe even a couple of SA forum members who are members of the GLBT community. I know that the recent Rio celebration had two or three hundred thousand gays celebrating Mardi Gras dontchaknow.

I 've gone through all the SA postings and as far as I can see there's been no gay lit discussions to mention.

I don't know why this so. Is it the "muy macho" stereotype?

You'll have to admit that the attitude of both the right and left in various SA countries and dictatorships isn't very incouraging for gay lit or gay poetry.

The news that John Ashbery may be the next Poet Laureate of the US is good news for everybody -- except homophobic individuals like Madame Mad and Detective_Winslow.

If this news can in any way further the rights of GLBT North and South American poets and writers, then I think my NYTimes message is relevant to SA Literature...

Tell me why it isn't.

If there are any GLBT SA Lit forum members online, then I think they have the right to know what's happening here in the USA in regard to gay lit as well as to the magic realism note I posted earlier.

"Don't ask don't tell" may be military law -- but Literature is not run by a junta.

If you happen to have something to say about any GLBT LatAm writer, or for that matter anything in the neighborhood (e.g., Goytisolo, cf my link following your magic realism post<s>), go for it. But why should every discussion host a Gay Rights discussion? Should Xtians proselytise over there, like love the sinner and all that? Hell, might even save a soul or something -- but it has been my experience that those who are truly "in the know" don't feel the need to constantly inform others of their very special connections. But then I'm agnostic, dontchaknow ... or dontchu?

Adding bonus link on Goytisolo, wherein Ashbery comes up (hey, Elizabeth Bishop counts too! Brazil sojourn):
http://nnyhav.blogspot.com/2006/03/facades.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on August 27, 2007, 10:46:22 PM
As a matter of fact, I am interested in a gay Cuban writer.

Reinaldo Arenas. Have you read any of his novels?

I'm reading The Palace of the White Skunks now.

Recently I had the distinct pleasure of seeing the movie Before Night Falls.

Many young Cubans were going to LSU after the Revolution in Cuba.

Many families of professions like doctors, lawyers, engineers suddenly became Exiles...

Most of the ones I knew were majoring in engineering...

But some had read Borges and we would discuss him in the dorms.

The Revolution...talk about magical realism. Maybe magical realism in reverse...

Since you've posted many times that you're "agnostic," you might like this line from Skunks:

"God. god. If You'd ever existed. You'd have died by now of having to listen to all the complaints from these people that believe in You..." (page 50)

There, my friend. Have I passed the litmus test for relevance? Am I kosher now?  ;)







Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on August 27, 2007, 11:06:28 PM
Adding bonus link on Goytisolo, wherein Ashbery comes up (hey, Elizabeth Bishop counts too! Brazil sojourn):
http://nnyhav.blogspot.com/2006/03/facades.html

BTW Thank you for the Goytisolo link.

And yes, Bishop's Spanish translations and her relationship in Brazil are fascinating.

She taught here in Seattle briefly soon after Roethke's death...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 27, 2007, 11:16:03 PM
No, I haven't yet gotten to Arenas; only just picked up Carpentier, before him, Cabrera-Infante ... there are still too many authors with whom I have to acquaint myself ... what's the best by him?

(It's a little scary that my link also refers to the Brelich book. Perhaps it's a sign ...)



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on August 28, 2007, 12:39:46 AM
Yes, I noticed that.

“It's worth noting that while the Gnostic tendency in Borges' fictions is well-known (and given the orthodox dismissal of Gnostic heresies), Brelich's narrator takes pains to stick to established Gospel in making his case.”

This "Gnostic tendency" in Borges’ fictions—we discussed it over in what was once the NYTimes forums. If I remember correctly, it was Hoffman and I in Fiction discussing the Other.

We were discussing Borges’ “The Other” and “August 25, 1983.” The idea of dreaming about yourself as Other is a fascinating topic—Borges goes into excruciating detail about these two encounters. I’ve experienced the same type of Other dream—that’s why I was interested in Borges and Double Lit.

The context of our book discussion was a unique kind of Double—the Double of “conjoined twins” with certain novels like Dunn’s Geek Love, Jackson’s Half Life, Lori Lansens The Girls, DBC Pierre’s Ludmila’s Broken English, Tara McCarthy’s Love Will Tear Us Apart and last but not least the classic Chang and Eng by Darin Strauss.

Thus, Borges’ two stories of doppelgangers dovetailed nicely into our literary divagations. It was in the Fiction Forum—I have the hardcopy filed away. I dip into it occassionally. A real tragedy—to lose that resource…

I was intensely into Borges at the time because of all the Fiction—or Twin Lit as we sometimes called it—only Borges’ narratives about the Double seemed relevant and close to my dreaming experiences with the Double. These 2 stories didn’t really help me that much though—in terms of anything new.

And then I read “The Theologians”—about John of Pannonia and Aurelian:

“The Wheel fell to the Cross, but the secret battle between John and Aurelian continued.”

As Borges says in his footnote: “In Runic crosses the two enemy emblems coexist, intertwined.”

Thus, in my own mind, I came to the conclusion that my Other, my Double, my Doppelganger—coexisted within me, intertwined as my Enemy.

Not only that but “This has occurred once, and will occur again” as Borges says. Which I interpret to mean that my Double was like an uroboric Snake swallowing itself. More modern writers like Phillip K. Dick have written about Gnosticism and the Double as well. I consider certain Fictions within the genre of science-fiction = magic realism. Both genres interest me...

It was around then that the NYTimes started undergoing changes resulting first in the purging of the BBB poetry forum—followed by the purging of all the Forums…

Our Borgesian discussion was interrupted—which leads me to where I am now. Scanning Carpentier and other magic realists is daunting and I plan to read them—but for now I trust Borges’ insights the most. Of all the magic realists, his Fictions are closer to mine.

Second on my list is Faulkner because as Borges says in Selected Non-Fictions: “Faulkner has played powerfully with time, deliberately shuffling chronological order, deliberately complicating the labyrinths and ambiguities.”

Plus this: “The ‘pure present’ is no more than a psychological ideal—and thus some of Faulkner’s decompositions are more confused—and richer—than the original events.

I see my dreams as “decompostions.” More confused and richer than waking moments. They are Double scenarios—like Jacob struggling with his Angel. Although sometimes I wonder…


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 28, 2007, 12:56:18 AM
I don't find the exact date, but the interesting thing about Borges and "religion" is that he seems to have discovered "The Gospel of Judas" a good thirty years before the experts did.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 28, 2007, 01:23:20 AM
lhoffman re: #306

You are not a very careful reader; you are prejudiced as well.  If you weren't, then you would have picked up the information more correctly than how you have distorted it.

About  a year and a half ago, I made very clear that I am not posting my own published work; I post in a different name than the name in which I am published; and having run into this animosity of people thinking they have the right to proof of some kind reveals how dangerous it is to make any information available.  It gives you access to things that I have no intention of letting you have. As usual you have made a mountain out of a mole-hill, and since it is quite purposefully provocative, it makes your inquiries suspect.  

To live in Princeton would have given me the opportunity to thank the person who helped me with the studies that I did more than a dozen years earlier and who was helpful to me because he respected my mentor. The latter died in 1982. The former died sometime shortly before I arrived.  Another purpose he had in being of assistance beginning about 17 years earlier was because no women had ever been allowed to study at Princeton shortly before that time.  He trained one young woman very carefully to take over his position, and he was exceptionally kind to me for the sake of my teacher whose translations were as renowned as  his own work.  It has nothing to do with me.

If you can't figure out why you took such offense on the Sunday morning when I suggested that because the posters were comparing their family "constellation" since the posters at the moment were all of them women and all had sisters, all I suggested was a very simple writing exercise that is helpful. It would be useful.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on August 28, 2007, 01:45:37 AM
Madupont....you are right that I don't read (your posts) very carefully.  But you are wrong when you say I took offense at your post back in the Poisonwood Bible discussion.  If you really want to know why I am offended, I will tell you.  I am offended because there have been many times I have attempted discussion with you and instead of giving me YOUR opinion, you send me back  cut and paste, often with no citation.  I also take offense at your constant name dropping and your assumption that I am so shallow as to care which famous people you might know.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on August 28, 2007, 02:54:59 AM
Ay Caramba!!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 28, 2007, 08:17:57 AM
Martin

The book by Bioy Casares it seems doesn't have an index but there is one available online if you require it. Quite large at 130 odd pages!

Check out The Literary Saloon.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 28, 2007, 12:06:41 PM
lhoffman,re:#314
"you send me back  cut and paste, often with no citation." As I recall quite well, I did that to present the basic facts on the identity of the person according to their official biograph at wikipedia,--" I also take offense at your constant name dropping and your assumption that I am so shallow as to care which famous people you might know." -- because I don't know her. That person being Elaine Pagels. I thought you should have her academic credentials before presuming that she was not qualified to discuss gnosticism (which is an area of religion that a large part of the world recognizes historically as a fact and thus comes up in a number of disciplines as I notice when discussing time-lines and places and cultures) or to publish her findings and opinions on it.

You then accused me, publicly of plagiarism, in these forums. Suit yourself.

I think that I should roll back to read beppo, which is what I came in here to do.
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 28, 2007, 12:45:48 PM
NNYHAV, So,Magritte.Cool.The *things* on the picture are letters,aren´t they?

PUGET, gay writers that we read in LatAm lit back in ye olde days of the NYT:
Manuel Puig,"Boquitas pintadas",Betrayed by Rita Hayworth, (great forum,tango and boleros included),Reinaldo Arenas "Before Night Falls".

Lesbian Arg. writers:Silvina Ocampo (wife of Bioy Casares) and poet Alejandra Pizarnik .That I know of. We didn´t read those but posted on them.

BTW did you know that B.A. has been named gay friendly city? There are cruisers coming into BA harbor.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 28, 2007, 12:51:11 PM
Martin

The book by Bioy Casares it seems doesn't have an index but there is one available online if you require it. Quite large at 130 odd pages!

Check out The Literary Saloon.

BEPPO, the book I meantioned are the conversations between Borges and Bioy which were carefully written,practically daily, by Bioy.I haven´t bought it yet.It´s quite expensive.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 28, 2007, 01:00:26 PM
Martin - these are the links to the book and to the index of the book - I think it's the same one but not certain.

http://www.complete-review.com/saloon/archive/200707c.htm#zn6

http://www.complete-review.com/saloon/archive/200707c.htm#zl8



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 28, 2007, 01:09:45 PM
BEPPO, that´the book all right.It was published after both Borges AND Bioy AND  Silvina Ocampo were dead so that is probably the cause for the bad editting. Bioy was always Borges Salieri, a friendly Salieri but all the same a Salieri.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 28, 2007, 02:32:22 PM
That's a great way to express it. Really.

Last night, I had to resist saying, re: Arenas,:  Been there, done that.

The exposition of Reynaldo Arenas presented to the public, by Javier Bardem, was one of Bardem's more brilliant professional portrayals. Well, they are all great but this was obviously to interest you the poetry of a transplanted poet.

Also, your line about the editting of the dead. Truly bad. This is big time in the US right now. I just mentioned it to Dzimas in American History.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 28, 2007, 02:39:49 PM
Beppo, Thanks immeasurable for inviting us to the saloon instead of the salon!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 28, 2007, 03:16:10 PM
[...]
Not only that but “This has occurred once, and will occur again” as Borges says.
[...]
It was around then that the NYTimes started undergoing changes resulting first in the purging of the BBB poetry forum—followed by the purging of all the Forums…
It started before you arrived. There had been forums devoted exclusively to Borges and to Nabokov. When those were expunged, I departed. I came back briefly again for LatAmLit before it was also spat out of the cyberverse like a watermelon seed ... but 'twas fun while it lasted. (And I'm not even an old-timer!)

Some "Otherness" for ya, gives new meaning to "traduttore, traditore"
http://www.themodernword.com/Borges/Zahir_and_I.html

Gnosticism may also refer to hermeneutic strata. Or nested allegories.
(So, Martin, ya think those are letters?)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 28, 2007, 05:07:54 PM
...hermeneutic,strata,nested allegories...are you sure this is English?

and yes, I think they are letters the two guys are speaking below in the picture.

Now I´ll go to the gym,clear my head after difficult work and  words

¡¡¡¡¡¡¡  ahoy to the muscle !!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 28, 2007, 06:55:15 PM
...hermeneutic,strata,nested allegories...are you sure this is English?

and yes, I think they are letters the two guys are speaking below in the picture.

Now I´ll go to the gym,clear my head after difficult work and  words

¡¡¡¡¡¡¡  ahoy to the muscle !!!!!!!!


Absolutely, one of the Dead Poets whose photograph I had slipped into the Poetry mess wrote this,Herald of the Autochthonic Spirit (1981),which is about 2 decades before his death, and which I was glad happened, about 8 months before the devastation at the World Trade Center because there was no truer Lower Manhattan denizen than Gregory Corso.

We sat in a bar near the Madison Art Center to which he had come from the Walker in Minnesota's twin cities, back then, back to back readings, and over Remy Martin discused Hermeneutics.  You see, he was born on the Feast Day of the Annunciation (or, the Angel Gabriel, which ever way you prefer) so they named him Gregory Nunzio Corso.  Like Martin Scorsese, you are reminded around him that he should have been a Priest. But not the usual kind, for everybody knew he was a puta, one of those smiling but whimsical either winged or small boy creatures that hangs out around Cupid and Venus. A trickster. He understood that Gabriel was Mercurial as well, the messenger of the gods, who entered everywhere and from whom nothing could be hidden. Caravaggio had told him.

He babbled on like that most of the night, the younger generation didn't particularly get where he was coming from and they didn't know he was esoteric, and he was only in his fifties! They had discovered women's liberation and male chauvinists, and males who supported political correctness, so they were somewhat disgusted that he had come from the underworld and had knowledge of the darker regions.  My god, they had invited him to come visit them and read, and then paid him absolutely no attention and rather shunned him in fact for being older than they were and coarse somehow. Well, yes, there's that name, the via  Corso , so somehow from the very start,abandoned and neglected, he know he was a Messenger who had traveled ancient roads. Today, he is buried next to Shelley.

I think that before the night was through,keeping vigil through the night, we read each other's cards, while one of the colder nights of the year transpired at a windchill of thirty degrees below F.

Fortunately, I had a wonderfully patterned monocoloured wool scarf made in Italy in my kit bag, suitable for a man, when sending him off back to his daughter's, whom he would terribly need in the years to come. Thank gods,she had become a nurse.  She took care of him there in Minnesota, and again on Horatio Street, then back to die at a hospital in St.Paul; there are so many legends it is hard to tell, one says this thing, another says that. He was buried following a funeral at the Judson Church on Washington Square, no, he wasn't. Where did he go? To Rome. At the Protestant Cemetery, so he could be with Shelly. He had sped around the world on winged feet and now slipped to rest beloved by friends.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on August 28, 2007, 09:07:38 PM

He babbled on...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 28, 2007, 10:55:17 PM
Keep Off The Grass
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/6958580.stm

via http://chasemeladies.blogspot.com/
(http://images.google.com.co/images?q=tbn:YP2IjF6dlAAJ:http://www.abc.net.au/science)URGENT! Please send 300 kilos of white mice. No time to explain.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on August 29, 2007, 12:09:46 AM
Thanks nnyhav—I enjoyed reading the “Chase me Ladies” humor piece. Especially some of the astute comments about narcissism
 
NARCISSISTS' MANIFESTO

“There will never be anyone else like you in the future of the universe. There has never been anyone exactly like you since human life began. That’s why being yourself is more important than anything else.”

____

"I've done some research and it turns out have only been about thirty people like me before - fortunately, all of them were caught and sentenced before they could do any real damage."—Flying Rodent

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/hhutton/4296850502131490321/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 29, 2007, 08:05:40 AM
Followup, from latest Newsweek:
Quote
[...] China has banned Buddhist monks in Tibet from reincarnating without government permission. According to a statement issued by the State Administration for Religious Affairs, the law, which goes into effect next month and strictly stipulates the procedures by which one is to reincarnate, is "an important move to institutionalize management of reincarnation." But beyond the irony lies China's true motive: to cut off the influence of the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled spiritual and political leader, and to quell the region's Buddhist religious establishment more than 50 years after China invaded the small Himalayan country. By barring any Buddhist monk living outside China from seeking reincarnation, the law effectively gives Chinese authorities the power to choose the next Dalai Lama, whose soul, by tradition, is reborn as a new human to continue the work of relieving suffering.




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 29, 2007, 12:13:31 PM
I wonder if those chinese will come around BA as the Argie Shaman knows fool well HE is the re-encarnashun of the Dalai Lama who died mowing the lawn.What an unbearable Lightness of Being this fking world! Even Zen monks die in axidents.There is nothing you can count on.2 bad.

p.s. anybody seeking comfort or advise of any sort just rite his plee in Meandering for the Argie Shaman to answer   :-\    :-\
 :-\


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 29, 2007, 12:17:37 PM
NNYHAV, MASTER THE LINKMEISTER, that´s one hk of an anecdote if you didin´t invent it.But giving you the benfit of the doubt and as you have never lied, I´ll take as true. Now Mr. Corse (i´ll google him up,just in case) made a great mistake speaking to those sss tudents in *difficult*.These days a person below 30 years of age has a vocabulary of exactly 356 words.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 29, 2007, 01:05:46 PM
There are two lamas, Dalai and Panchen. The Beijing authority kept the Panchen Lama ages ago. The Dalai Lama lives at Dorje-ling, and not in Tibet, with a monastery full of what had been child monks or those they still brought out one way or another, so that option is centered elsewhere as it is. They make their own living by printing tankas and by sewing garments.  

Not all lamas are from there anyway, other than those Tibetans, which I pointed out by chance in the American History forum recently as the lama who is the teacher of a friend of mind happened to have his photo at the top of a cataloguing of the work of Joseph Needham, the historian of the development of sciences in China who published the series,Science and Civilization in China. I recognized the little man, quite old, as soon as I saw his smiley face(kind of like the above). He once saved my friend when she was camping in the hills of California with her son who was very young at the time, and she had an accident which made it difficult for her to function and return home. She said that the two monks, one older, accompanied by a younger, just happened to come along and fixed her right up and got her back out of there. Okanta has been a follower of that lama ever since.

Allen Ginsberg had several Tibetan monks with him during the process of his dying at home in New York not too many years ago. Because  he was quite weak, he had the support of one of those hospital beds that allows you to be raised in a semi-upright position, since the upright meditation position is usually preferred and monks usually die seated in meditation.

There are lamas  in many parts of the world, as I started to say, one of whom, Lama Anagarika Govinda was an Austrian like Heinrich Harrar, the man who taught the Dalai Lama about science when the DL was a youngster fascinated by technical things like movies,etc. Harrar has escaped from a British internment camp in India and made his way north with a countryman of his. Both were imprisoned as enemies during the Second World War.   Lama Anagarika Govinda was a cheery looking old man and I no longer recall how he became a lama, where he lived with his wife whether it was Nepal or California or where ever but obviously when he died was his reincarnation born somewhere? I would have liked my friend, also Austrian by birth, to have had a chance to talk to him as he probably could have told her a great deal from the point of view of their common background, when she went to India.

Besides these recognized and revered lamas floating around and who will reincarnate, I long ago noticed that the readings of the planetary positions in the natal chart of people whom I've known indicate strong proclivities to being "likely lamas; likely reincarnates" but, then why in the places that they were born?   What this says is that the Chinese authorities are simply shooting the breeze; if probable and possible lamas are born outside of Tibet, why be so concerned about cracking down there? More than likely because the recent youth movement there has been more rebellious rather than being pacifist and the Dalai Lama knows this, has visited with some of those who show up and has no judgment against them but blesses them in finding their way.  This story was covered several winters ago in the nytimes.com and I e-mailed the link on to my friend Okanta.  

She and I are of different opinions about what is exactly a tulku, when I describe my understanding of it as I've seen illustrated in the Secret of the Golden Flower which was long ago recommended to me by Kenneth Rexroth, Okanta says it is not how she understood what her little lama told her. And that is very possible, as the Vedas clarified just as an example that when it comes to religious enlightenment there are at least three levels of understanding and why some people may be very fixated on Fundamentalist Christian "faith" for instance, another group go as active seekers to find some practice that will clarify things, then there are those who understand.  

Sometimes those whose birth indicates they were possible lamas on the way, are evidently all too understanding  but there are things they have not worked through. They do not choose when the path divides. One of these trekked over and over again down from the Andes across the Amazon with no difficulties whatsoever but after returning thin as a rail tried an average life including the average things that the average do, which involved substituting one kind of high for another and the last that I was told he intended to work for the CIA because he was so experienced. That was the last I saw of him.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 29, 2007, 01:18:16 PM
martinbeck3, re:#332  and #333

Brother Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk, they speak very little but he wrote a lot, died when he touched an electric fan in Japan when he was there for a conference between Buddhists and Christians.

Stuff happens.

Corso's take on the language uses the most simple street smarts in his poetry which I sometime later discover on a passing reading have no way to miss references to more esoteric stuff but the language is simple.

For entertainment and reading material while incarcerated as a fairly young man in an upstate New York penitentiary, he read the dictionary, whether this was in a prison library or just a paper-back given to him who knows? one imagines what they want. But he started incorporating, anything that struck him as particularly pertinent into his poems. Almost anybody who knew him was wowed by his work.  It was always obvious that the rhythms he developed were as outstanding as the notion which originally set him off in the composition.  Probably the best known to most readers are  Marriage;  and Bomb.  Ferlinghetti at City Lights published the chap book, Gasoline, by Corso, in the Beat series.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 29, 2007, 01:36:37 PM
MADDIE, stop talking for a while and watch the noo re-inkarnashun of the Lama at work in Plaza Constitucion,BA,Arg.:

BEHOLD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ckh8bRv_IE&mode=related&search=


SORRY,SOMETHING WENT TERRIBLY WRONG.
I´m just starting.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 29, 2007, 02:36:12 PM
[...]SORRY,SOMETHING WENT TERRIBLY WRONG.
I´m just starting.
What, more blooming lamaposts?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 29, 2007, 04:10:33 PM
 8) yeah! loved the Lamapost !!!

from this moment on I´ll move the Shaman to meander in due respect to LatAm writers.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on August 29, 2007, 04:16:28 PM
Mr. I Ching
Chief State Administrator—SARA
State Administration for Religious Affairs
Beijing China

Dear Dead One,

We’re very sorry that you recently kicked the bucket.

Unfortunately your visa papers for Reincarnation are not in order. You failed in your previous lifetime to file the necessary paperwork with the State Administration for Religious Affairs in order to be reincarnated.

As you know, the new Reincarnation regulation, which goes into effect next month, strictly stipulates the procedures by which one is to reincarnate.

We here in the State Administration for Religious Affairs take this matter very seriously and we see the new rules as an important step toward institutionalizing the management of reincarnation.

We’ve decided to make this new law retroactive like the Nazis—doing a sweep of all Tibetan undesirables, intellectuals and sexual inverts.

According to our records, you fit rather nicely into all three banned categories. So that even if you’d filed the papers in time, your Reincarnation status is not only moot but retroactively truant and criminal.

Therefore we’re sending our Reincarnation Hit Squad to search the Other Side to inform you about your spiritual status with the State which in now Zip—both Now and Then as well as the Future…

Please fill out the enclosed Form 666 for your Appeal Rights in regard to SARA—the State Administration for Reincarnation Affairs.

Failure to complete Form 666 will result in all your past lives being voided by the State—please see SARA Form 666 for details.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us.

Sincerely yours,
I. M. Ching
SARA CHINA






Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 29, 2007, 05:50:55 PM
martinbeck3, re:#332  and #333

Brother Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk, they speak very little but he wrote a lot, died when he touched an electric fan in Japan when he was there for a conference between Buddhists and Christians.

Stuff happens.

Corso's take on the language uses the most simple street smarts in his poetry which I sometime later discover on a passing reading have no way to miss references to more esoteric stuff but the language is simple.

For entertainment and reading material while incarcerated as a fairly young man in an upstate New York penitentiary, he read the dictionary, whether this was in a prison library or just a paper-back given to him who knows? one imagines what they want. But he started incorporating, anything that struck him as particularly pertinent into his poems. Almost anybody who knew him was wowed by his work.  It was always obvious that the rhythms he developed were as outstanding as the notion which originally set him off in the composition.  Probably the best known to most readers are  Marriage;  and Bomb.  Ferlinghetti at City Lights published the chap book, Gasoline, by Corso, in the Beat series.

Perhaps I'm being particularly impertinent, but ...

From http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Merton-Search-His-Soul/dp/0877935246/
Customer Reviews:
Pregnant With Contemplative Fodder
[...] If you are a fan of Thomas Merton you might like this book. [...]
Merton wrote, "My brother, perhaps in my solitude I have become as it were an explorer for you, a searcher in realms which you were not able to visit - except perhaps in the company of your psychiatrist."

or electrician, or someone like him ...

"The first time I read the dictionary I thought it was a long poem about everything" -- Steven Wright


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 29, 2007, 06:15:08 PM
and while on Buddhists: until the next reincarnation, Dave Flood:
http://www.legacy.com/nwclassifieds/deathnotices.asp?Page=Notice&PersonID=93072970

http://davidjflood.hotmail.com.namezero.com/smallstepsinspirationsfromacancersurvivor/id24.html

(http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/news/nation_world/sept11anniversary/oneyearlater/photos/flood.jpg)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on August 29, 2007, 08:10:18 PM
until the next reincarnation...


“So long to wait,” I murmured.

“Not for me,” he said shortly. “For me, there’s almost no time left. At any moment I may die, at any moment I may fade into that which is unknown to me, and still I dream these dreams of my double...that tiresome subject I got from Stevenson and mirrors.”

“Don’t you realize that the first thing to find out is whether there is only one man dreaming, or two men dreaming each other?”

“I am Borges. I saw your name in the register and I came upstairs.”

“But I am Borges, and I am dying in a house on Calle Maipú.”

—Jorge Luis Borges, “August 25, 1983,” Collected Fictions, New York: Penguin, p.490



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on August 29, 2007, 10:01:21 PM
nnyhav,

THE IMPORTANCE OF WORDS
Poet Robert Bly says although birds rely on instinct, poetry blueprints the human soul. In other words, the words and ideas we take into our cells have a subtle influence on our behavior.

I also particularly liked the comment  by Stephan Wright, on the dictionary; as I feel that way not only at first experience(and cannot even recall when that was)but over and over again, that it is one poem.

Well, actually Corso did himself a little more that, I ponder now whether that dictionary was at Harvard? He got himself there as fast as he could and began auditing; with the result that students and faculty underwrote his first published book of poetry --what was that title again, Vestal Lady of Brattle -- or, was it Vestal Lady in Brattle?  I always forget.

I also knew Robert Bly, "before" a number of things like men getting in touch with themselves in the woods.  He'd done that for years as it was or as he was. You'd never know it to see him as a visiting guest on the reading circuit.  But, he has perhaps become increasingly interested in the healing aspects of -- I hate to say this,poems.  There is this cross-fertilization process that went on over decades and decades with these poets running into each other out on the road, sometimes having a little time to kill time, usually not, but they familiarized themselves with each other's rap, and Snyder --Gary Snyder that is--was particularly good at being able to convey "diksha" or  how resonance works when you hear what is said and then you hear something coming back from you that was set off by this interaction between teacher and disciple. Very important in India, repetition of mantra, or among the sangha of Mahayana Buddhists or an anthropology major like Gary who decides to go off to Daitokuji and sit zazen for the duration of the Vietnam war.

Bly is kind of a lovable cuss though, he's such a Midwesterner about it which is why we met, one state over at the time, and last time I heard him reading it was his translations of the songs of Mirabai.  Prior to that, it was his take on Rilke. Now, everybody has had a taste of Rilke. I heard the oddest story one night from an old friend of mine, a Swiss-American poet named George John whom I'd known from some time in the mid to late 1950s and about the last time that I saw him in 1980-81, he tells me out of the blue that it was his family who took Rilke in and took care of him when he had fallen into hard times. Time having gone by, I've wondered since why he was the kind of a person who would not mention it? Or, was the emphasis on why he was then telling me now? It was the last time that I saw him and I realize he could not possibly be any longer alive as he was aging back then.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 29, 2007, 10:21:59 PM
—Jorge Luis Borges, “August 25, 1983,” Collected Fictions, New York: Penguin, p.490
"Yes," he replied slowly, as though piecing together the memories, "but I don't see the connection. In that draft I bought a one-way ticket for Androgué, and when I got to the Hotel Las Delicias I went up to Room 19, the room farthest from all the rest. It was there that I committed suicide."
[...]
["]That hotel in Androgué was torn down years and years ago—twenty, maybe thirty. Who knows?"
_________________

Some limited and waning memory of Herbert Ashe, an engineer for the Southern Railway Line, still lingers in the hotel at Androgué, among the effusive honeysuckle vines and in the illusory depths of the mirrors.

—Jorge Luis Borges, “Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius,” Collected Fictions, New York: Penguin, p.70
_________________



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 30, 2007, 11:32:49 AM
Here is the Hotel Adrogué:

http://www.todoadrogue.com.ar/historia/hotellasdelicias.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 30, 2007, 11:35:49 AM
some old photos of Adrogué (circa the time Borges visited the place):

http://www.todoadrogue.com.ar/historia/hotellasdelicias.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 30, 2007, 05:07:26 PM
(http://www.todoadrogue.com.ar/historia/07.jpg) then and now (http://www.agencianova.com/data/fotos2/39843_casa.jpg)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on August 30, 2007, 05:56:05 PM
"Glass is destined to play an important role in metal-architecture. In place of thick walls whose solidity and resistance is diminished by a large number of apertures, our houses will be so filled with openings that they will appear diaphanous. These wide openings, furnished with thick glass, single- or double-paned, frosted or transparent, will transmit—to the inside during the day and to the outside at night—a magical radiance."  Gobard, "L'Architecture de l'avenir," Revue générale d'architecture (1849), p.30 [S.Giedion, Bauen in Frankreich <Leipzig and Berlin, 1928>, p.18].

TAP. WB


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 30, 2007, 08:06:11 PM
Adrogué

Nadie en la noche indescifrable tema
Que yo me pierda entre las negras flores
Del parque, donde tejen su sistema
Propicio a los nostálgicos amores

O al ocio de las tardes, la secreta
Ave que siempre un mismo canto afina,
El agua circular y la glorieta,
La vaga estatua y la dudosa ruina.

Hueca en la hueca sombra, la cochera
Marca (lo sé) los trémulos confines
De este mundo de polvo y de jazmines,
Grato a Verlaine y grato a Julio Herrera.

Su olor medicinal dan a la sombra
Los eucaliptos: ese olor antiguo
Que, más allá del tiempo y del ambiguo
Lenguaje, el tiempo de las quintas nombra.

Mi paso busca y halla el esperado
Umbral. Su oscuro borde la azotea
Define y en el patio ajedrezado
La canilla periódica gotea.

Duermen del otro lado de las puertas
Aquellos que por obra de los sueños
Son en la sombra visionaria dueños
Del vasto ayer y de las cosas muertas.

Cada objeto conozco de este viejo
Edificio: las láminas de mica
Sobre esa piedra gris que se duplica
Continuamente en el borroso espejo

Y la cabeza de león que muerde
Una argolla y los vidrios de colores
Que revelan al niño los primores
De un mundo rojo y de otro mundo verde.

Más allá del azar y de la muerte
Duran, y cada cual tiene su historia,
Pero todo esto ocurre en esa suerte
De cuarta dimensión, que es la memoria.

En ella y sólo en ella están ahora
Los patios y jardines. El pasado
Los guarda en ese círculo vedado
Que a un tiempo abarca el véspero y la aurora.

¿Cómo pude perder aquel preciso
Orden de humildes y queridas cosas,
Inaccesibles hoy como las rosas
Que dio al primer Adán el Paraíso?

El antiguo estupor de la elegía
Me abruma cuando pienso en esa casa
Y no comprendo cómo el tiempo pasa,
Yo, que soy tiempo y sangre y agonía.

—JLB
__________________________________________

Let no one fear in the bewildering night
that I will lose my way among the borders
of dusky flowers that weave a cloth of symbols
appropriate to old nostalgic loves

or the sloth of afternoons—the hidden bird
forever whittling the same thin song,
the circular fountain and the summerhouse,
the indistinct statue and the hazy ruin.

Hollow in the hollow shade, the coach-house
marks (I know well) the insubstantial edges
of this particular world of dust and jasmine
so dear to Julio Herrara and Verlaine.

The shade is thick with the medicinal smell
of the eucalyptus trees, that ancient balm
which, beyond time and ambiguities
of language, brings back vanished country houses.

My step feels out and finds the anticipated
threshold. Its darkened limit is defined
by the roof, and in the chessboard patio
the water tap drips intermittently.

On the far side of the doorways they are sleeping,
those who through the medium of dreams
watch over in the visionary shadows
all that vast yesterday and all dead things.

Each object in this venerable building
I know by heart—the flaking layers of mica
on that gray stone, reflected endlessly
in the recesses of a faded mirror,

and the lion head that holds an iron ring
in its mouth, and the multicolored window glass,
revealing to a child the early vision
of one world colored red, another green.

Far beyond accident and death itself
they endure, each one with its particular story,
but all this happens in the strangeness of
that fourth dimension which is memory.

In it and it alone do they exist,
the gardens and the patios. The past
retains them in that circular preserve
which at one time embraces dawn and dusk.

How could I have forgotten that precise
order of things both humble and beloved ,
today as inaccessible as the roses
revealed to the first Adam in Paradise?

The ancient aura of an elegy
still haunts me when I think about that house—
I do not understand how time can pass,
I, who am time and blood and agony.

(trans Alastiar Ried)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 30, 2007, 10:39:28 PM
Going through the house (and Collected Fictions):

Quote
"Yes," he replied slowly, as though piecing together the memories, "but I don't see the connection. In that draft I bought a one-way ticket for Adrogué, and when I got to the Hotel Las Delicias I went up to Room 19, the room farthest from all the rest. It was there that I committed suicide."
[...]
["]That hotel in Adrogué was torn down years and years ago—twenty, maybe thirty. Who knows?"

—“August 25, 1983,”  (490)

Quote
Some limited and waning memory of Herbert Ashe, an engineer for the Southern Railway Line, still lingers in the hotel at Adrogué, among the effusive honeysuckle vines and in the illusory depths of the mirrors.

—“Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius”  (70)

Quote
... the house was less than a hundred years old but is was gloomy and dilapidated and filled with perplexing corridors and pointless antechambers.

—“The Shape of the Sword" (140)

Quote
A maze is a house built purposely to confuse men; its architecture, prodigal in symmetries, is made to serve this purpose. In the palace that I imperfectly explored, the architecture had no purpose. There were corridors that led nowhere, unreachably high windows, grandly dramatic doors that opened onto monklike cells or empty shafts, incredible upside-down staircases with upside-down treads and balustrades. Other staircases, clinging airily to the side of a monumental wall, petered out after two or three landings, in the high gloom of the cupolas, arriving nowhere. I cannot say whether there are literal examples I have given; I do know that for many years they plagued my troubled dreams; I can no longer know whether any given feature is a faithful transcription of reality or one of the shapes unleashed by my nights.

—“The Immortal" (188)

Quote

... Seen at closer quarters, the house belonging to the Villa Triste-le-Roy abounded in pointless symmetries and obscure repetitions; a glacial Diana in a gloomy niche was echoed by a second Diana in a second niche; one balcony was reflected in another; double stairways opened into a double balustrade. A two-faced Hermes threw a monstrous shadow. Lönnrot walked all around the outside of the house as he had made the circuit of the villa's grounds. He inspected everything; under the level of the terrace, he spotted a narrow shutter.

He pushed at it; two or three marble steps descended into a cellar. Lönnrot, who by now had a sense of the architect's predilictions, guessed that there would be another set of steps in the opposite wall. He found them, climbed them, raised his hands, and opened the trapdoor out.

A glowing light led him toward a window. This he also opened; a round yellow moon defined two leaf-clogged fountains in the dreary garden. Lönnrot explored the house. Through foyers that opened onto dining rooms and on through galleries, he would emerge into identical courtyards—often the same courtyard. He climbed dusty stairs to circular antechambers; he would recede infinitely in the facing mirrored walls; he wearied of opening or half opening windows that revealed to him, outside, the same desolate garden from differing heights and differing angles—inside, the furnishings in yellowing covers, chandeliers swathed in muslin. A bedchamber stopped him; there, a single flower in a porcelain vase; at the first touch of his fingertips, the ancient petals crumbled. On the second floor, on the uppermost floor, the house seemed infinite yet still growing. The house is not so large, he thought. It seems larger because of its dimness, its symmetry, its mirrors, its age, my unfamiliarity with it, and this solitude.

A stairway took him to the belvedere. The moonlight of the evening shone through the lozenges of the windows; they were yellow, red and green. He was stopped by an astonished, dizzying recollection.

—“Death and the Compass" (153-4)

afterthought—not unlike Elba


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Ricolo on August 31, 2007, 07:53:23 AM
NNYHAV, MASTER THE LINKMEISTER, that´s one hk of an anecdote if you didin´t invent it.But giving you the benfit of the doubt and as you have never lied, I´ll take as true. Now Mr. Corse (i´ll google him up,just in case) made a great mistake speaking to those sss tudents in *difficult*.These days a person below 30 years of age has a vocabulary of exactly 356 words.

almost a word per day, add a few swear words ...



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 31, 2007, 11:38:56 AM
Great links and quotations NNYHAV,thank you.

Here goes another example of the type of symmetrical buildings typical of the turn of the XIX cent. Again Adrogué,which was a holiday place ! Now a roaring ,quite ugly suburb.

http://www.adroguetenisclub.org.ar/

I don´t know why the econd link where I posted some lovely old pictures didn´t come out.I´ll try again.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 31, 2007, 12:13:14 PM
No way.I wonder where I picked them from.Magic-realism?

I enjoyed your quotes and noticed the translation sounds fine,though not the poetry one.That is a Difficult One.Well, at least you can read it.

At present I am reading "Corazon tan blanco" by Javier Marias.He is one of the new Spanish writers and a very good one.

 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on August 31, 2007, 11:36:57 PM
This is a bit weird ... I take an expedition north on my lunch break to hit the bookstore: I find that, just as the Hotel Las Delicias was replaced by Admiral Brown's House of Culture, so too was the bookstore previously known as Labyrinth Books now divested and to be referred to henceforth as BookCulture:
http://www.bwog.net/articles/labyrinth_books_book_culture_update
Anyway, I picked up (among other things) two books with Buenos Aires provenance, Cesar Aira's How I Became a Nun, and Witold Gombrowicz's Bacacay (yes, so it was written in Polish, he was a BA resident, even if the stories themselves predate his arrival, the book itself was published in the middle of his BA days). Also, Alvaro Mutis' Adventures and Misadventures of Maqroll (thanks to whoever mentioned it here back when here was back there).


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 01, 2007, 04:15:16 AM
(http://www.todoadrogue.com.ar/historia/07.jpg)

afterthought—not unlike Elba

I have this recurring dream. I keep meeting my double in this strange hotel.

Like that hotel in Adrogué. Many rooms and corridors. Very old and familiar...

And when I open the door...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 01, 2007, 01:27:17 PM
There is a story by Cortazar,"Lejana", where this woman keeps imagining she has a double in Budapest.Finally she travels with her husband to this city and there on the river that joins Buda with Pest...

 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 01, 2007, 05:03:32 PM
http://www.waggish.org/2007/08/19/borges-the-house-of-asterion


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 01, 2007, 05:57:09 PM
(http://www.todoadrogue.com.ar/historia/07.jpg)

“Will he be a bull or a man? Will he perhaps be a bull with the face of a man?
or will he be like me?—Jorge Luis Borges, "The House of Asterion"


I have this recurring dream. I keep meeting my double in this strange hotel.

Like that hotel in Adrogué. Many rooms and corridors. Very old and familiar...

And when I open the door...he's always there waiting for me.

He's the Minotaur Kid -- he's built like a brick shithouse.

He's just like me -- except he's got exquisite teenage horns.

His Venus-torso is sleek and his hair is jet-black.

Sometimes he's a young handsome gaucho...

Other times he's a Cuban exile...

After the Revolution he came to me...

At nights in the university...

That's when the dreams began...

The dream of the House of Asterion...

A round yellow moon defines his nice legs...

By the two leaf-clogged fountains in the dreary garden...

Double stairways open into a double balustrade...

Where he waits for me like a lion with an iron ring in his nose.

Inside, the furnishings are Argentine mauve, chandeliers swathed in muslin.

A bedchamber stops me; there, a single hyacinth in a porcelain vase...

At the first touch of my fingertips, the ancient petals take over the room.

The hotel seems infinite yet still growing...

It always seems larger than last time...

Its dimness, its symmetry, its mirrors, its age, my unfamiliarity with it, and his solitude.

A stairway takes me up to him in the belvedere...

The moonlight of the evening shines through the lozenges of his eyes...

They are yellow, red and green...

He is stopped by an astonished, dizzying recollection...

Even more than me...

He knows me better than I know him...

But soon I take care of that...



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 01, 2007, 07:46:57 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/541/922/541922b9-deff-42f5-b100-7e7ec38371e7)

Adrogué

“The ancient aura of an elegy / still haunts me when
I think about that house— Jorge Luis Borges, “Adrogué”


I don’t understand how time passes—
Sometimes so slowly it aches…
Other times time too quickly,
So quickly it’s all blood and tears…

How many times have I forgotten—
Only to wake up with him in my arms:
The young Minotaur god in the garden…
Virgin as the roses in the pubes
Of the first Adam of Paradise?

It happens this way—the 4th dimension
Opens up like a garden of a thousand
Forking paths—a mirrored labyrinth
From which there is no escape…
No escape…

There is this plantation patio—
Old voodoo drums in the background.
The kid is frozen in a dark fountain
And it takes a kiss to wake him.

I know him because I’ve seen him—
A rich planter in Port-au-Prince:
Jacques Tourneur’s teenage son—
I Walked with a Zombie (1943).

In the humid shade the fountain—
Dripping dripping intermittently…
The strange smell of eucalyptus
The indistinct statue hazy ruins.

The night takes on the sloth—
Of old nostalgic loves and then
That’s when the glistening statue
Comes to life and looks at me.

This is the world of Night—
Beloved world of lust & jasmine
So dear to Rimbaud my master
And his slave Verlaine.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 01, 2007, 08:28:29 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/dc4/001/dc4001f6-5623-4f06-b556-634d321d1f92)

"Adrogué entered literature through Jorge Luis Borges’ eerie parable “Death and the Compass,” set where Borges and his family summered in a hotel (now demolished) with a turret like Triste-le-Roy’s in the story, with strong-smelling eucalyptus trees in the park, and fountains. Borges told Victoria Ocampo in 1967 about Adrogué: “When I think of Adrogué, I do not think of the actual Adrogué dilapidated by progress, by telephones and motorbikes, but of that tranquil, lost labyrinth of quintas, plazas, and streets that met and diverged, with iron railings.” Just the scent of eucalyptus, anywhere in the world, threw him back to that place. Estela Canto’s personal memoir of her times with Borges evoked Adrogué’s Hotel Las Delicias, where the Borges family spent summer because they could not afford the grander Mar del Plata hotels: “In the forties Las Delicias was a rundown building, with a nostalgic charm, and the unexpected elegance of the new poor. Palm trees and ferns in flower boxes vanished, but the great windows with red, blue and yellow glass rhombi fascinated Borges. In “Death and the Compass” he described these rhomi, giving them a magical meaning.” The most desolate vision of this place comes from Borges’ poem titled “Adrogué,” published in 1969, in which Borges intensely recreates this place where he was happy. Amidst its dust and jasmines and eucalyptus trees with their “medicinal smell,” he remembers every detail from” mica paving stones” to a “lion’s head” and the red and green colored glass. But the past is a “closed circle,” inaccessible to Borges who is made of “time, blood and death’s agony.”—Jason Wilson, Buenos Aires, New York: Interlink, 2007.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 02, 2007, 12:27:35 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/4eb/970/4eb9702d-c431-4f4f-9bff-7f12990b91c8)

"En cualquier parte del mundo en que me encuentre cuando siento el olor de los eucaliptos, estoy en Adrogué. Adrogué era eso: un largo laberinto tranquilo de calles arboladas, de verjas y de quintas; un laberinto de vastas noches quietas que mis padres gustaban recorrer. Quintas en las que uno adivinaba la vida detrás de las quintas. De algún modo yo siempre estuve aquí, siempre estoy aquí.  Los lugares se llevan, los lugares están en uno. Sigo entre los eucaliptos y en el laberinto,  el lugar en que uno puede perderse. Supongo que uno también puede perderse en el Paraíso. Estatuas de tan mal gusto y tan cursis que ya resultaban lindas, una falsa ruina, una cancha de tenis.  Y luego, en ese mismo hotel "Las Delicias", un gran salón de espejos. Sin duda me miré en aquellos espejos infinitos. Muchos argumentos, muchas escenas, muchos poemas que he imaginado, nacieron en Adrogué o se sitúan en ella. Siempre que hablo de jardines, siempre que hablo de árboles, estoy en Adrogué; he pensado en esta ciudad, no es necesario que la nombre". (1981)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on September 02, 2007, 01:03:07 AM
Supongo que uno también puede perderse en el Paraíso. Estatuas de tan mal gusto y tan cursis que ya resultaban lindas, una falsa ruina....

This is pretty funny if I am translating it correctly....it seems he is equating the ruins (and other monuments, (except Androgue?)) with kitsch. 

De algún modo yo siempre estuve aquí, siempre estoy aquí.
And this is almost religious in its depth:  Somehow (some ways?) I have always been here, will always be here.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 02, 2007, 06:04:02 PM
"En cualquier parte del mundo en que me encuentre cuando siento el olor de los eucaliptos, estoy en Adrogué. Adrogué era eso: un largo laberinto tranquilo de calles arboladas, de verjas y de quintas; un laberinto de vastas noches quietas que mis padres gustaban recorrer. Quintas en las que uno adivinaba la vida detrás de las quintas. De algún modo yo siempre estuve aquí, siempre estoy aquí.  Los lugares se llevan, los lugares están en uno. Sigo entre los eucaliptos y en el laberinto,  el lugar en que uno puede perderse. Supongo que uno también puede perderse en el Paraíso. Estatuas de tan mal gusto y tan cursis que ya resultaban lindas, una falsa ruina, una cancha de tenis.  Y luego, en ese mismo hotel "Las Delicias", un gran salón de espejos. Sin duda me miré en aquellos espejos infinitos. Muchos argumentos, muchas escenas, muchos poemas que he imaginado, nacieron en Adrogué o se sitúan en ella. Siempre que hablo de jardines, siempre que hablo de árboles, estoy en Adrogué; he pensado en esta ciudad, no es necesario que la nombre". (1981)
The wikipedia entry on Adrogué has a loose translation from the Spanish; I don't have Spanish but I have some Borgese, so I'll give it a shot:

In whatever part of the world I find myself, when I come upon the scent of eucalyptus, I am in Adrogué. Adrogué is just this: a large quiet labyrinth of high tree-lined streets, of gates and manors; a labyrinth of vast quiet nights that my parents enjoyed wayfaring. Manor-fronts in which one could divine the life behind the facades. In some way, I have always been here, I am always here. These places accompany oneself, these places are within oneself. I wander among the eucalyptus and in the labyrinth, the place that one can lose oneself. One might as well lose oneself in Paradise. Pretentious statues in poor taste but pretty still, a fake ruin, a tennis court. And then, in the same hotel "Las Delicias", a grand salón of mirrors. Without doubt I found myself in those infinite mirrors. Many arguments, many scenes, many poems that I imagined were born in Adrogué or were situated there. Whenever I speak of gardens, whenever I speak of trees, I am in Adrogué; I have thought of that city, which it is unnecessary to name.

And with the eucalyptus in Adrogué once again:

Let us consider a life in whose course there is an abundance of repetitions: mine, for example. I never pass in front of the Recoleta without remembering that my father, my grandparents and great-grandparents are buried there, just as I shall be some day; then I remember that I have remembered the same thing an untold number of times already; I cannot walk through the suburbs in the solitude of the night without thinking that the night pleases us because it suppresses idle details, just as our memory does; I cannot lament the loss of a love or a friendship without meditating that one loses only what one really never had; every time I cross one of the street corners of the southern part of the city, I think of you, Helen; every time the wind brings me the smell of eucalyptus, I think of Adrogué in my childhood; every time I remember the ninety-first fragment of Heraclitus, "You shall not go down twice to the same river," I admire its dialectical dexterity, because the ease with which we accept the first meaning ("The river is different") clandestinely imposes upon us the second ("I am different") and grants us the illusion of having invented it; every time I hear a Germanophile vituperate the Yiddish language, I reflect that Yiddish is, after all, a German dialect, scarcely colored by the language of the Holy Spirit. These tautologies (and others I leave in silence) make up my entire life. Of course, they are repeated imprecisely; there are differences of emphasis, temperature, light and general physiological condition. I suspect, however, that the number of circumstantial variants is not infinite: we can postulate, in the mind of an individual (or of two individuals who do not know of each other but in whom the same process works), two identical moments. Once this identity is postulated, one may ask: Are not these identical moments the same? Is not one single repeated term sufficient to break down and confuse the series of time? Do not the fervent readers who surrender themselves to Shakespeare become, literally, Shakespeare?

http://www.androhsu.com/phpwiki-1.3.10/index.php?pagename=BorgesOnMemory
(misattributed therein to "A New Refutation of Time", unless there's a new new refutation?)

refining...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 02, 2007, 06:35:59 PM
(http://www.todoadrogue.com.ar/historia/07.jpg)

Supongo que uno también puede perderse en el Paraíso. Estatuas de tan mal gusto y tan cursis que ya resultaban lindas, una falsa ruina....

This is pretty funny if I am translating it correctly....it seems he is equating the ruins (and other monuments, (except Androgue?)) with kitsch. 

De algún modo yo siempre estuve aquí, siempre estoy aquí.
And this is almost religious in its depth:  Somehow (some ways?) I have always been here, will always be here.


Adrogué seems to be the ultimate archetypal City of Borges’ literary imagination—the ultimate labyrinthine Paradise from whence so much of his work flows.

 Adrogué may seem kitschy today—the statues vulgar and petty, the motorcycles, the modern day rush and bustle of traffic—but then it’s his boyish and adolescent imagination we’re talking about here. And the obvious stimulus trigger of eucalyptus to his memories and flashbacks of Argentina back then.

The smell of eucalyptus in SF hits me the same way—eucalyptus seems to always remind me of that city by the bay. And the times I spent there as a young hippy on Nob Hill…later publishing my first book of poetry there. SF, City Lights, Gay Sunshine Press, the Muse—all of it comes back to me with the gentle odor of Eucalyptus.

As does the smell of magnolia, honeysuckle and wisteria from humid, semitropical Louisiana…and Baton Rouge the old Banana Republic Deep South city of the dead with its sad Huey P. Long campus still living in the Thirties…

Sometimes I think that smell has its own memory—its own way of reaching out to us from the fourth dimension of dreams and childhood remembering—that isn’t accessible to the rational left-brain discursive prose we’re used to when it comes to writing memoir or discussing books…

According to my trusty SDL translation machine, your two passages seem to translate this way:

Supongo que uno también puede perderse en el Paraíso. Estatuas de tan mal gusto y tan cursis que ya resultaban lindas, una falsa ruina....

“I suppose that one can also be lost in the Paradise.  Statues of so badly flavor and so vulgar that already they turned out to be pretty, a false ruin.”

De algún modo yo siempre estuve aquí, siempre estoy aquí.

“Of some way I always was here, always I am here.”

I read this as Borges discussing Adrogué as the ur-city of his Argentine imagination—just as Yoknapatawpha County is the ur-place of William Faulkner’s American imagination.

These archetypal “magic realist” labyrinthine ruins—these are the places where writers and poets lose themselves. It is by being lost that the Narrative of the fourth dimension becomes known. It’s through telling, retelling, looping back, getting lost, moving deeper and deeper into the Maze—that in my humble opinion the meaning of Adrogué to Borges can be found. It's like stepping back into the Heraclitus flux ("You shall not go down twice to the same river") and experiencing the Moment again whatever that Moment was that haunts you or takes you down a Labyrinthine path into the forked paths or the Library of Babel or the Circular Ruins or the Works of Herbert Quain or Tlön, Uqbar or Orbis Tertius...

Here is the complete translation of that seminal passage:

"Anywhere of the world in which find me when I feel the smell of the eucalyptuses, I am in Adrogué.  Adrogué was that: a long tranquil labyrinth of wooded streets, of iron gates and of fifth; a labyrinth of vast quiet nights that my parents liked to travel through.  Fifth in which one guessed the life behind the fifth.  Of some way I always was here, always I am here.  The places are carried, the places are in one.  I continue between the eucalyptuses and in the labyrinth, the place in which one can be lost.  I suppose that one can also be lost in the Paradise.  Statues of so badly flavor and so vulgar that already they turned out to be pretty, a false ruin, a tennis court.  And then, in that same hotel "The Delights", a great parlor of mirrors.  Without doubt I looked at myself in those infinite mirrors.  Many arguments, many scenes, many poems that have imagined, they were born in Adrogué or they are situated in her.  Provided that I speak of gardens, provided that I speak of trees, I am in Adrogué; I have thought about this city, is not necessary that the name". 




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 02, 2007, 06:50:49 PM
(http://www.todoadrogue.com.ar/historia/07.jpg)

"I think of Adrogué in my childhood; every time I remember the ninety-first fragment of Heraclitus, "You shall not go down twice to the same river," I admire its dialectical dexterity...

Are not these identical moments the same? Is not one single repeated term sufficient to break down and confuse the series of time? Do not the fervent readers who surrender themselves to Shakespeare become, literally, Shakespeare?[/i]

http://www.androhsu.com/phpwiki-1.3.10/index.php?pagename=BorgesOnMemory
(misattributed therein to "A New Refutation of Time", unless there's a new new refutation?)

This is why I'm interested in "magic realism."

As I mentioned to Hoffman above:

I read this as Borges discussing Adrogué as the ur-city of his Argentine imagination—just as Yoknapatawpha County is the ur-place of William Faulkner’s American imagination.

These archetypal “magic realist” labyrinthine ruins like Adrogué—these are the places where writers and poets lose themselves. It is by being lost that the Narrative of the fourth dimension becomes known. It’s through telling, retelling, looping back, getting lost, moving deeper and deeper into the Maze—that in my humble opinion the meaning of Adrogué to Borges can be found. It's like stepping back into the Heraclitus flux ("You shall not go down twice to the same river") and experiencing the Moment again whatever that Moment was that haunts you or takes you down a Labyrinthine path into the forked paths or the Library of Babel or the Circular Ruins or the Works of Herbert Quain or Tlön, Uqbar or Orbis Tertius...


One can step into the Heraclitus flux again and again...by telling, retelling, looping back, getting lost, moving deeper and deeper into the Maze as both Borges and Faulkner did. Borges seems to use interesting almost surrealist models like the Library of Babel to do this House of Mirrors trick. Faulkner seems to stick closer to home by letting the novel itself be the Gate through which his storytelling powers mature, develop and awe us lucky Readers...

Or rather perhaps seduce us down the meandering path into our own Adrogué-esque imaginations?



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 02, 2007, 11:18:11 PM
http://www.vqronline.org/articles/1991/summer/irwin-journey/

Scroll south to II for Faulkner.

Cf
http://www.library.vanderbilt.edu/speccol/haagao.shtml
I hadn't realized that Borges' translation was the conduit between Faulkner & GGM etc ...

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/411BR2D8N0L._AA240_.jpg)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 12:17:54 AM
http://www.vqronline.org/articles/1991/summer/irwin-journey/

Scroll south to II for Faulkner.


Excellent link. Thank you.

"One can perhaps see most clearly Faulkner's influence reenforcing that of Poe in Borges' third detective story, "Ibn Hakkan al-Bokhari, Dead in His Labyrinth," where the situation of the two young men puzzling over the facts of a very old murder and constructing alternative stories to explain what really happened is strongly reminiscent of the situation of Quentin and Shreve in Absalom, Absalom! And in a sense Borges' self-definition as a writer depended upon his ultimately convincing himself of that very fact which Quentin, in the city of Poe's birth and his own death, never seemed able to convince himself—that he didn't hate the South."

http://www.vqronline.org/articles/1991/summer/irwin-journey/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 12:25:14 AM
"Borges' most explicit examination of his own "southerness" as a writer, and consequently a particularly instructive instance of the influence of Poe on his work, is to be found in the short story with which he ends the 1956 collection Ficciones—"The South."

...As the narrator says, "An old sword, a leather frame containing the daguerreotype of a blank-faced man with a beard, the dash and grace of certain music, the familiar strophes of Martin Fierro, the passing years, boredom and solitude, all went to foster this voluntary, but never ostentatious nationalism." The opposition that Borges draws in the tale between the urban north and the rural south, between Buenos Aires (as a city of emigrants and the descendants of emigrants, a city of imitation Europeans) and the pampas (where all those traits that are distinctively Argentinian are to be found) amounts to a symbolic geography in which the journey to the South will be acted out."


http://www.vqronline.org/articles/1991/summer/irwin-journey/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 12:31:47 AM
"But where Borges on his recovery wrote a short story (a story in which Menard's work of doubling the Quixote is a figure for Borges' work of doubling Poe's detective stories), Dahlmann on his recovery makes a trip to the South. This parallel equates the journey to the South with the act of writing, in particular, with the attempt at some new type of writing, some imaginative exploration. And here again we see the influence of Poe, for in several of his best known stories Poe figuratively represents the act of writing as an exploratory journey into terra incognita, into some new realm of the human imagination."

http://www.vqronline.org/articles/1991/summer/irwin-journey/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 12:41:14 AM
"Riding the train to his ranch, Dahlmann occupies himself by reading the first volume of The Thousand and One Nights that he had acquired on the day of his accident, feeling somehow that he is "traveling into the past and not merely the south." Disembarking at a station near his ranch, Dahlmann becomes involved in a senseless quarrel in a cafe with three drunken toughs, and one of them challenges him to a knife fight. Dahlmann knows that he should refuse, that he does not have a chance, but he has chosen the life of the South and part of that life is this death. Dahlmann is without a weapon, but suddenly an old gaucho—"in whom Dahlmann saw a summary and cipher of the South (his South)—threw him a naked dagger, which landed at his feet, It was as if the South had resolved that Dahlmann should accept the duel.... He felt that if he had been able to choose, then, or to dream his death, this would have been the death he would have chosen or dreamt."[/i]

http://www.vqronline.org/articles/1991/summer/irwin-journey/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 12:43:41 AM
Thus it is that in Borges' second detective story, "Death and the Compass," the criminal concludes his intellectual duel with the detective, who, says Borges, thought of himself as "a kind of Auguste Dupin," by trapping and killing him at the fourth point of the compass, which is to say, in the South."

http://www.vqronline.org/articles/1991/summer/irwin-journey/


Title: Re: Borges, Faulkner and the Magic Realists
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 01:40:48 AM
Las Palmeras Salvajes and The Wild Palms

http://www.library.vanderbilt.edu/speccol/haagao.shtml

This is a very interesting essay. It begins with a very brief succinct distinction between Faulkner and the magic realists.

“Jorge Luis Borges published a Spanish translation of William Faulkner's The Wild Palms in 1940, which Gabriel Garcia Marquez and other Latin American writers have cited as a major influence on their work. Although many similarities exist between Faulkner's work and the writings of the magical realists, two differences are apparent even to the layman. Firstly, Garcia Marquez is in some ways an "easier read" than Faulkner, even to a native English speaker. Secondly, the fantastic element is much more apparent in Garcia Marquez than in Faulkner. When reading Faulkner, one asks, "what does that sentence mean?" When reading Garcia Marquez, one asks "how can what that sentence obviously means, be possible in  realistic, or even internally consistent world?". Both Faulkner and the later magical realists are attempting to do justice to a world filled with ambiguity and confusion. Faulkner does so by creating confusion as to what objective situation his words are referring to, whereas the magical realists specify their object clearly, but present the reader with an object whose internal logic is ambiguous and confusing. It would make sense for Borges' translation of Faulkner to be an intermediate step in this progression. I contend that this translation does provide such a step, both by reducing the purely linguistic ambiguity and confusion in Faulkner's original, and perhaps also by introducing some confusion into the referent of that language.”

Then it goes into Borges’ critique of Faulkner’s novel techniques as "menos atrayentes que incomodas, menos justificables que exasperantes" ("less attractive than uncomfortable, less justifiable than exasperating"). Borges’ style is "quizas mas apretado que el de Faulkner" ("perhaps tighter than that of Faulkner").

Then it gets more complicated—for example, Borges cutting a 165 word Faulkner sentence to 111 words. What happens when this happens? It’s not just a slide from English into Spanish…

Faulkner is known for his “super-sentences”—mammoth uber-sentences that create a tremendous “cognitive load” on the reader. Although simply shortening the sentence length is only a crude measure of the linguistic difficulty of translation—certain words are loaded:

“The narrative voice explains that a character eschews both pajamas and cigarettes because his father had once said that these objects were "for dudes and women". The word "dude" may be used here to refer to a regional stereotype, or to allude to gender-based stereotypes and homosexuality. By translating "dudes" as "maricas", Borges commits to the second interpretation. Unfortunately, since the word is only used once in the original text, we can't observe whether Borges would have translated it differently in another context.”

And then there is the matter of time.

Borges outdoes Faulkner—by decreasing language difficulty and increasing conceptual difficulty.

For example, Faulkner’s troublesome sentence:

"as you have been ever since there was a not-you to become you, and will be until there is an end to the not-you by means of which alone you could once have been"

Borges translates as:

“…the not-you is not only necessary for the existence of you, the purpose of the not-you is to enable your existence.”

Which gives new meaning to the whole paragraph in The Wild Palms:

“I was outside of time. I was still attached to it, supported by it in space as you have been ever since there was a not-you to become you, and will be until there is an end to the not-you by means of which alone you could once have been - that's the immortality - supported by it but that's all, just on it, non-conductive, like the sparrow insulated by its own hard non-conductive dead feet from the high-tension line, the current of time that runs through remembering, that exists only in relation to what little of reality (I have learned that too) we know, else there is no such thing as time.” (p. 137)

Borges replaces "else there is no such thing as time" with "outside of this, time does not exist." Borges thus simplifies and complexifies at the same time.

“Instead of just describing the characters subjective experience of time and stating that no more objective perception is possible, Borges goes the extra step and begins to speak of a truly relative universe. Not only is it impossible to be sure that subjective experience corresponds correctly to objective reality, it is now quite possible that seemingly contradictory statements (time exists, time does not exist) can be simultaneously true in whatever objective universe does exist. Faulkner's phrase does not suggest that a universe without time would be possible, whereas Borges all but challenges us to picture it.”

Thus Borges puts a “magic realist” spin on Faulkner…





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 03, 2007, 10:08:14 AM
There was a place like Adrogue, long after Borges'Adrogue was gone, it was called Mendeville, and you could reach it by train from Villa Lugano, the same dirth roads and the same iron fences, only smaller and not as grandiose as the old Adrogue, it smelled of burnt leaves and grasses in the evening, and it had that melancholic sadness of the things you know without knowing, when you're still too young to know, that they won't last long and that what you're seeing is not the present but shards of the past that still remains unaware of the present. Mendeville and Adrogue are today only names of places which are no longer Mendeville and Adrogue.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 03, 2007, 10:10:38 AM
martinbeck3:

" Duermen del otro lado de las puertas
Aquellos que por obra de los sueños
Son en la sombra visionaria dueños
Del vasto ayer y de las cosas muertas."


I know a place like this, I saw it again at night, and I knew all them were asleep there.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 03, 2007, 10:14:24 AM
martinbeck3: Now let's cut all this borgean crap, and let's talk about what really matters.

What are you doing showing that picture of Martin karadagian  dressed in canary yellow?....And what about the reincarnation of the Dalaylaralay in Argentina?....are we finally getting trascendental and beyond choripan and the material world?.......keep me posted, please.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 03, 2007, 10:26:12 AM
BOCA, we all knew an Adrogué once and you have described it perfectly.My Adrogué was San Miguel my grandparents´*quinta*(villa).Did you know that they were called *quinta*because it was supposed to be a fifth (quinto) of your estancia dedicated to growing vegetables and fruits,and poultry) for the families that lived there.

Do or don´t you like my picture? I think el Gran Martin Karadagian best expresses my avatar.

Do you posses one? One avatar I mean... or several?

Loved the JLB krappen you posted.Good way to start a Sunday morning.
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 03:24:03 PM

"...and it had that melancholic sadness of the things you know without knowing, when you're still too young to know, that they won't last long and that what you're seeing is not the present but shards of the past that still remains unaware of the present.

Very beautiful, Boca. You write well...

And Martin...yes, we all have our own Adrogué...

Thank you nnyhav...for the exquisite links...

I'll get back to Fiction now...

And let you gentlemen continue with your forum.

I understand more now about Borges and Faulkner...

And the magic realists...





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 03, 2007, 03:40:43 PM
BOCA, see *te vamo´a saca´bueno* ( we are going to take the best out of you).Even people whose mother tongue is English think you are a very good writer.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 03:56:47 PM
(http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20011229/sp2.jpg)

For some reason, Martin, I have this image of Carlos Arano as your true Avatar…



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 03:58:55 PM
nnyhav

http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,34.msg28553.html#msg28553


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 03, 2007, 04:15:32 PM
here is an interesting link on Faulkner´s and Poe´s influence on Borges:

  http://www.vqronline.org/articles/1991/summer/irwin-journey/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 03, 2007, 04:16:52 PM
I have the new edition of the Wild Palms translated by Borges.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 03, 2007, 06:30:54 PM
http://www.waggish.org/2007/08/19/borges-the-house-of-asterion

This story is of course also told by Kazantakis, which was just another reason for the Orthodox Church of Greece to ban The Last Temptation.

The opener of the story you link above, has that pithy line about there is no wonder that I am the offspring of a queen. Kazantakis in order to reveal the derivations in his culture that add up to The Last Temptation, goes back to the Taurean religion of Minos and literally describes  the impregnation of the queen.  There are Greeks today who talk with me very carefully, when on line because they would still be in trouble with their government's orthodoxy, to discuss even the Mystery cults, even if they themselves are a  physicist, for instance. There are at other times, a definite nonacknowledgment that there ever was a similarity of the early written language as found on the Rosetta stone with that of the people on the other side, the eastern shore of the Mediterranean.

So, in this version as given above, you might see it as a pre-Mycenaen mythology of the Cain and Abel story, since the Monster is his brother and in that world, which is ours, monsters were born all the time at the dawn of a new Age through one kind of revolution or another, some natural disaster.

Other thoughts upon first reading this, as one thing leads to another, Jean Cocteau's Orphee (1950) is a film with the same peculiarities as Androgues' Hotel Delicias. Set in post-war France, the poets meet as they always do at some cafe des poetes in Montparnasse, the decor of private homes, once hotels or vice-versa, hotels once private homes, have all the decor one would not find out of place in Paris. That is until you notice that the wall sconces along the corridors seem sculptural and the classic Greek sculptural Directoire arm of the sconces turn to light your way and seem to follow you as you pass by. The death-mask portraiture on the walls also opens their eyes as you pass.  (Raul Ruiz used this same concept effectively in his film Time Regained, of Proust's, In Search of Lost Time)

With Cocteau, Jean Marais as Orphee reaches through the mirror which ripples like mercury/Mercury  to enter the Underworld in search of his dead wife, he steps in and out of this mirror on his journey, while on the street outside the Cafe des Poetes, the denizens of the underworld come and go in a black limousine, with fogged windows,which is escorted by an escort of black-leather jacketed motorcyclists. You feel like you have stepped into Oliver Stone's New Orleans of Clay Shaw,via rue de Jim Garrison investigates what ever happened to JFK.  If not for having seen Cocteau's film before Stone's.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 03, 2007, 06:42:18 PM
Continued from last post above:

Not to put too fine a point on it, we should not forget what Stanley Kubrick regularly does and did for Stephen King's,The Shining, and Jack Nicholson as a writer who thinks being a caretaker for the winter in a hotel that begins to resemble Androgues' Hotel Delicias is just about write/right for finishing his novel but, which drives him mad,the novel or the Hotel?

Which Jung tells us represents our anima, our female nature, like everybody, I can say, I've been there, done that,AND you know what annoys me about the recurrent squatters that I find have invaded my old household of which I am the concierge? it's that they don't know diddly-squat about literature, the literary life, or writing. Oh, well back to the Pontalba apartments for the nonce until the exterminators clear out the house.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 06:59:43 PM
"You feel like you have stepped into Oliver Stone's New Orleans of Clay Shaw,via rue de Jim Garrison investigates what ever happened to JFK. 

??????????????


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 07:01:05 PM
AND you know what annoys me about the recurrent squatters that I find have invaded my old household of which I am the concierge? it's that they don't know diddly-squat about literature, the literary life, or writing. Oh, well back to the Pontalba apartments for the nonce until the exterminators clear out the house.

?????????????????????


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 07:15:30 PM
(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MEPOD/10179885~Spanish-Witch-Returns-Home-after-a-Flight-Accompanied-by-Her-Familiar-an-Owl-Posters_i1883481.jpg)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on September 03, 2007, 07:59:24 PM
"You feel like you have stepped into Oliver Stone's New Orleans of Clay Shaw,via rue de Jim Garrison investigates what ever happened to JFK. 

??????????????

 :D :D :D


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on September 03, 2007, 08:00:04 PM
AND you know what annoys me about the recurrent squatters that I find have invaded my old household of which I am the concierge? it's that they don't know diddly-squat about literature, the literary life, or writing. Oh, well back to the Pontalba apartments for the nonce until the exterminators clear out the house.

?????????????????????


 :D :D :D :D :D


Title: Re: Borges, Faulkner and the Magic Realists
Post by: nnyhav on September 03, 2007, 08:18:56 PM
Las Palmeras Salvajes and The Wild Palms

http://www.library.vanderbilt.edu/speccol/haagao.shtml

This is a very interesting essay. It begins with a very brief succinct distinction between Faulkner and the magic realists.
[...]

Not bad for an undergrad paper, is it?

Quote

And then there is the matter of time.

Borges outdoes Faulkner—by decreasing language difficulty and increasing conceptual difficulty.

For example, Faulkner’s troublesome sentence:

"as you have been ever since there was a not-you to become you, and will be until there is an end to the not-you by means of which alone you could once have been"

Borges translates as:

“…the not-you is not only necessary for the existence of you, the purpose of the not-you is to enable your existence.”

Which gives new meaning to the whole paragraph in The Wild Palms:

“I was outside of time. I was still attached to it, supported by it in space as you have been ever since there was a not-you to become you, and will be until there is an end to the not-you by means of which alone you could once have been - that's the immortality - supported by it but that's all, just on it, non-conductive, like the sparrow insulated by its own hard non-conductive dead feet from the high-tension line, the current of time that runs through remembering, that exists only in relation to what little of reality (I have learned that too) we know, else there is no such thing as time.” (p. 137)

Borges replaces "else there is no such thing as time" with "outside of this, time does not exist." Borges thus simplifies and complexifies at the same time.

“Instead of just describing the characters subjective experience of time and stating that no more objective perception is possible, Borges goes the extra step and begins to speak of a truly relative universe. Not only is it impossible to be sure that subjective experience corresponds correctly to objective reality, it is now quite possible that seemingly contradictory statements (time exists, time does not exist) can be simultaneously true in whatever objective universe does exist. Faulkner's phrase does not suggest that a universe without time would be possible, whereas Borges all but challenges us to picture it.”

Thus Borges puts a “magic realist” spin on Faulkner…


I would rather put it that Borges fabulates. Where Faulkner extends language, Borges extends concept. This displacement of the difficulty I don't see as going the extra step, but as solving the same problem a different way. I beleive Borges owes more to Poe than to Faulkner in this regard. (But Poe also contributes something to magic realism, through the lineage Jules Verne to Raymond Roussel to the Surrealists to Alejo Carpentier.)


Title: Re: Borges, Faulkner and the Magic Realists
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 08:28:52 PM
"...to the Surrealists to Alejo Carpentier."

Yes, you mentioned Alejo Carpentier earlier...

Any thoughts you'd like to share about Carpentier?

...or the Surrealists?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 03, 2007, 08:34:23 PM
I've been thinking about Borges...

And the way he "fabulates" and "conceptualizes..."

Faulkner's technique seems to come out with Quentin and Shreve...

...in Absalom as they "fabublate" the Sutpen history?

http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,34.msg28575.html#msg28575



Title: Re: Borges, Faulkner and the Magic Realists
Post by: nnyhav on September 03, 2007, 09:14:15 PM
"...to the Surrealists to Alejo Carpentier."

Yes, you mentioned Alejo Carpentier earlier...

Any thoughts you'd like to share about Carpentier?

...or the Surrealists?

Not really, or not yet anyway; had my say on the blog (oh what the heck excerpted below, given the Haitian continuation). But on the strength of the preface to The Kingdom of This World, I picked up Edwidge Danticat's The Dew Breaker yesterday at the usedbookmonger; also, more in Borges territory, Gershom Scholem's Major Trands in Jewish Mysticism ... earlier in the week, Louis Aragon's Paris Peasant was added to the TBR shelf. But all that's for later ... though now I'm going to have to check out The Wild Palms, too ...

Twas buddhapoet put me on to Carpentier. Twas he put me off of him too.
_________________________

Alejo Carpentier, The Kingdom of This World (trans Harriet de Onis): "Magical realism" begins here (as lo real maravilloso in Carpentier's original preface to this novella), and here is much sparer and so more powerful than it later became (in Boom works such as The Explosion in the Cathedral—b'dum-pssh—). The life of the protagonist, Ti Noël, spans the Haitian slave rebellion against whites, then blacks, ending with mulattoes in the synthascendent, while religion shades from Catholic to Vodou — written while the former waged holy war on the latter. This is less to the point than the animism bracketing the story.

Graham Greene, The Comedians: I'd put off reading this until had a better sense of Haitian history, for which the preceding sufficed. Planned as an "entertainment", it became much more,
http://www.nytimes.com/books/00/02/20/specials/greene-haiti.html
a book that had an effect, and yet the cycle continues. More timely if less timeless than Carpentier. I suppose who the comedians are depends upon the stage set for them.


Title: Re: Borges, Faulkner and the Magic Realists
Post by: pugetopolis on September 04, 2007, 01:27:20 AM
I suppose who the comedians are depends upon the stage set for them.

...or the tramp steamer you put them in.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 04, 2007, 02:18:20 AM
"The Pontalba buildings (erected 1845-1856) are to the sides of Jackson Square. Some people debate whether or not these were the first apartment buildings but there is not a doubt that these buildings were a great accomplishment for a female entrepreneur, Baroness Pontalba. Note the initials in the grillwork as you pass the buildings. It is interesting that she kept both initials. Her husband was a French minister who tried to kill her. She escaped to New Orleans but was injured by the Minister. Before her apartments were there, the site occupied military barracks. The tall windows and taller ceilings were made especially for this climate since heat rises. The apartments were designed by the elder Gallier from a famous family of architects.
P.T. Barnum brought Jenny Lind, a famous singer, to visit New Orleans in 1851 and she was invited by the Baroness to stay at the apartments for free. Jenny Lind, the “Swedish Nightingale” sang to fourteen packed houses in New Orleans. Upon Lind’s departure, the Baroness auctioned the furniture where Lind had stayed. The auction brought $3,060.50.

Sherwood Anderson, a writer, rented part of these apartments to which he invited many other writers including William Faulkner, Somerset Maugham, Edna St. Vincent Millay, Katherine Ann Porter, Thornton Wilder, and Booth Tarkington. The Drawing Room Players who later started Le Petit Theatre De Vieux Carre rented the Lower Pontalba Buildings."



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 04, 2007, 02:28:00 AM
nnyhav,re:#395

"Twas buddhapoet put me on to Carpentier. Twas he put me off of him too."

Why was that?

Geezergranddad asked after him,recently. So, I sent him the address.


Title: Re: The New Comedians
Post by: pugetopolis on September 04, 2007, 06:38:04 AM
(http://www.todoadrogue.com.ar/historia/07.jpg)

the new comedians

“i am practically…the invisible man.”
—jorge luis borges, the craft of verse


they say there’s a point of no return that goes unnoticed most of the time—like that voyage on the medea—a tramp steamer from nyc to port-au-prince—a scrubby little cargo-ship peddling the sullen sea—another ship of fools for you & me—full of toffs and tarts—sauve qui peut—life a comedy—a comedy of errors—i laughed & laughed until i cried—it was a more tacky tragedy than i expected—there aboard the dumpy medea—here aboard the sleek elba—ships full of practical jokers like me—kitschy journey to the extreme point of comedy…

the hotel trianon was getting dumpy—the bougainvillea needed cutting back—the palms were leaning down too close—“will you get me another mint julep, please?”—there i was reclining in a wicker chaise lounge thinking about nothing—my mind so very elsewhere that hot humid night—i felt deader than a doornail—way down there in the deep end of the pool—the verandah stretching on either side of me—this luxury-hotel for papa doc and the haiti élite—such a nice vacation spot for disillusioned tourist connoisseurs like me…

later on of course—there was little to balance the fear and boredom—even the trianon soufflé au grand marnier lost its appeal—the drums went silent—the singing stopped—the boungan boy spoke in tongues—older than creole—older than latin—older than fox-news—tall lean darby jones’ eyes turned up—so high only the whites showed—he was carrefour my mother’s lover—standing nude there at the crossroads—in the middle of the cane field at night—my mother took a zombie lover—my mother walked with a zombie—zombie love put her in a deep trance—they kept her in a dark tower—by an ancient garden fountain—my father was a zombie—haiti was my home…

“you have no rouge or lipstick?”—the purser said no—“you must kiss me at the foot of the gangway”—why me the purser said—“an evening of riotous abandon”—can you manage your skirt i asked—“of course, old man—this isn’t the first time”—we went down the gangway arm in arm—“i was never a modest woman”—he did look more beautiful without his moustache…

“i played boadicea once—lord mountbatten herself in the audience”—i lifted my leg his skirt was caught—“does deceiving peron again count as resistance?”—i shrugged not knowing what to say—where was evita when you needed her?—we were nearing the venezuelan embassy—“where are you taking me?”—buenos aires was quiet as a cemetery—dead as a port-au-prince night of the living dead—i rang the buzzer—the ambassador answered the door—he was wearing a skimpy puce kimono—never had i seen him so less than immaculate—“this is borges,” i said—“he needs asylum”—the ambassador looked amazed—“luis?” martha asked—standing at the top of the stairs—“my dear,” the ambassador said—“may i introduce our esteemed new poet laureate refugee…”




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 04, 2007, 08:21:36 AM
martinbeck3:

"Do you posses one? One avatar I mean... or several?"

..son los avatares de la vida,senora, as they would say Miranda's butcher shop.

If Karadagian is your avatar...then you and dpecheny must be the same person, isn't it, Martin?. I mean the beard....

Martin, seriously now: What the capita "F" is an avatar?, sounds Indian, does it have to do with coconut milk and pungent spices?.....


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 04, 2007, 08:25:31 AM
florianopolis:

"Very beautiful, Boca. You write well..."


More like Argentina was a poem then.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 04, 2007, 08:33:49 AM
martinbeck3:

".....Even people whose mother tongue is English...."


Martin, I don't think is polite to talk about other people's mother's tongue. Sisters', maybe, but not mothers'. Obviously you didn't grow up amongst Italians, eh Martin?


BTW, as we speak Dubya is shaking hands with Morris Iema and other Australian "dignataries" at the airport. Condolcessa is also here in all the magnificense of her fetherless-parrot's smily face.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 04, 2007, 08:35:26 AM
martinbeck3:...ok, make that: featherless instead.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 04, 2007, 08:40:04 AM
Condolcessa, as descrined by an old tango:

Chueca, vestida de pebeta,
teñida y coqueteando su desnudez etica
parecía un gallo desplumao,
mostrando al compadrear
el cuero picoteao.

Yo que se cuando
no aguanto más,
al verla así rajé,
pa' no llorar.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 04, 2007, 08:43:20 AM
Condolcessa as seen at Sydney airport tonight:

Flaca, dos cuartas de cogote,
y una percha en el escote,
bajo la nuez.

Chueca, vestida de pebeta,
teñida y coqueteando su desnudez etica
parecía un gallo desplumao,
mostrando al compadrear
el cuero picoteao.

Yo que se cuando
no aguanto más,
al verla así rajé,
pa' no llorar.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 04, 2007, 09:46:32 AM
Translation (?)

Thin, two quarters of nape of the neck,
and a hanger in the neckline,
under the nut. 

It collides, dress of pebeta,
stained and flirting its bareness etica
seemed a rooster desplumao,
showing al compadrear
the leather picoteao. 

I that itself when do
not endure more,
al to see it thus I tore,
pa' not to cry. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 04, 2007, 09:47:53 AM
Borges in Buenos Aires

A branch of the Buenos Aires Municipal Library—his job to read (especially Kafka), write, and translate—a never-ending process—from 1937 Borges worked as a cataloguer at the Miguel Cane Library—at first the Catalog did not interest him—he usually disappeared into the basement—then the proof of the falsity of those false catalogs—it consumed him day and night—faux-cataloguing inspiring one of his most famous short stories—the years at the suburban library passed—he was fired in 1946 by Peron—the Library inside his head kept growing—supplemented with thousands and thousands of false catalogs—then once again—when Peron came back—Borges was removed from his post by the Péron regime—demoted from Librarian—to poultry inspector at the Buenos Aires Municipal Market—a position he declined—Borges wasn't a chicken queen…


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on September 04, 2007, 06:01:52 PM
Dante, Ciardi, Terza Rima

                      Canto I

Midway in our life's journey, I went astray
  from the straight road and woke to find myself
   alone in a dark wood. How shall I say

what wood that was! I never saw so drear,
   so rank, so arduous a wilderness!
   Its very memory gives a shape to fear.

Death could scarce be more bitter than that place!
   But since it came to good, I will recount
   all that I found revealed there by God's grace.

How I came to it I cannot rightly say,
   so drugged and loose with sleep had I become
   when I first wandered there from the True Way.

But at the far end of that valley of evil
   whose maze had sapped my very heart with fear
   I found myself before a little hill

and lifted up my eyes. Its shoulders glowed
   already with the sweet rays of that planet
   whose virtue leads men straight on every road,

and the shining strengthened me against the fright
   whose agony had wracked the lake of my heart
   through all the terrors of that piteous night.

Just as a swimmer, who with his last breath
   flounders ashore from perilous seas, might turn
   to memorize the wide water of his death—

so did I turn, my soul still fugitive
   from death's surviving image, to stare down
   that pass that none had ever left alive.

And there I lay to rest from my heart's race
   till calm and breath returned to me. Then rose
   and pushed up that dead slope at such a pace

each footfall rose above the last. And lo!
   almost at the beginning of the rise
   I faced a spotted Leopard, all tremor and flow

and gaudy pelt. And it would not pass, but stood
   so blocking my every turn that time and again
   I was on the verge of turning back to the wood.

Inferno, I, 32 (J.L. Borges)

In the final years of the twelfth century, from twilight of dawn to twilight of dusk, a leopard looked upon some wooden planks, some vertical iron bars, men and women who were always different, a thick wall and, perhaps, a stone trough filled with dry leaves. The leopard did not know, could not know that what he craved was love and cruelty and the hot pleasure of rending and the odor of a deer on the wind; and yet something within the animal choked him and something rebelled, and God spoke to him in a dream: you live and will die in this prison, so that a man I know may look at you a certain number of times and not forget you and put your figure and your symbol in a poem which has its precise place in the scheme of the universe. You suffer captivity, but you will have furnished a word to the poem. In the dream, God enlightened the rough beast, so that the leopard understood God's reasons and accepted his destiny; and yet, when he awoke, he felt merely an obscure resignation, a gallant ignorance, for the machinery of the world is overly complex for the simplicity of a wild beast.

Years later, Dante lay dying in Ravenna, as little justified and as much alone as any other man. In a dream, God revealed to him the secret purpose of his life and labor; in wonderment, Dante knew at last who he was and what he was and blessed his bitter days. Tradition holds that on awakening he felt he had received and then lost something infinite, something he could not recuperate, or even glimpse, for the machinery of the world is overly complex for the simplicity of men.


Translated by A. Kerrigan

(http://lathamstudios.com/bonniesblog/UserFiles/Image/LeopardMiniBJWeb.jpg)




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 04, 2007, 08:47:01 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/5f9/3f0/5f93f08a-5d23-4e5e-8ab6-6407ac9d5937)

http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/5f9/3f0/5f93f08a-5d23-4e5e-8ab6-6407ac9d5937


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 04, 2007, 09:06:38 PM
[Inferno, I, 32 (J.L. Borges)

In the final years of the twelfth century, from twilight of dawn to twilight of dusk, a leopard looked upon some wooden planks, some vertical iron bars, men and women who were always different, a thick wall and, perhaps, a stone trough filled with dry leaves. The leopard did not know, could not know that what he craved was love and cruelty and the hot pleasure of rending and the odor of a deer on the wind; and yet something within the animal choked him and something rebelled, and God spoke to him in a dream: you live and will die in this prison, so that a man I know may look at you a certain number of times and not forget you and put your figure and your symbol in a poem which has its precise place in the scheme of the universe. You suffer captivity, but you will have furnished a word to the poem. In the dream, God enlightened the rough beast, so that the leopard understood God's reasons and accepted his destiny; and yet, when he awoke, he felt merely an obscure resignation, a gallant ignorance, for the machinery of the world is overly complex for the simplicity of a wild beast.

Years later, Dante lay dying in Ravenna, as little justified and as much alone as any other man. In a dream, God revealed to him the secret purpose of his life and labor; in wonderment, Dante knew at last who he was and what he was and blessed his bitter days. Tradition holds that on awakening he felt he had received and then lost something infinite, something he could not recuperate, or even glimpse, for the machinery of the world is overly complex for the simplicity of men.


Translated by A. Kerrigan


Rilke's panther, Nabokov's ape?
http://www.sci.muni.cz/~jzeman/various/Rilke.html
http://ask.metafilter.com/58855/Whos-the-ape-who-drew-its-own-cage
(a final or initial shiver?)

(http://www.thebeckoning.com/poetry/rilke/thepanther.jpg)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 04, 2007, 10:02:56 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/435/d84/435d840b-70fb-4711-9bf2-b106fcf74467)

http://www.tribe.net/template/pub,PopPic.vm?picURL=http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/435/d84/435d840b-70fb-4711-9bf2-b106fcf74467&altText=inferno4.JPG

The Medea = NYTimes book forum
The Elba = Exiles of the NYTimes
Borges = Dante
Peron = Pride


Title: Re: Borges, Peron and Today
Post by: pugetopolis on September 05, 2007, 12:07:34 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/feb/b9f/febb9f5c-0358-4efe-b334-e859d7d4329d)

Rilke's panther, Nabokov's ape?

Perhaps beppo, martin, elportenito or you can help me with something. What was it like in Argentina under Peron? What's it like to live under a Dictatorship? What was it like in Argentina when Peron came back a second time? How did Borges the Poet and Librarian react? Especially the second time? He says he felt like the Invisible Man? Why? Didn't he get any support from friends? Did he feel like a caged Panther? Did he feel like a caged Ape? Did he feel like an Exile? Then off to Europe? Just curious...I feel that way too...When I read the NYTimes...like the last couple of weeks...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 05, 2007, 08:16:43 AM
nnyhav,re:#395

"Twas buddhapoet put me on to Carpentier. Twas he put me off of him too."

Why was that?

Geezergranddad asked after him,recently. So, I sent him the address.
Buddhapoet could be offputting. He could also be offput; he sometimes found me too academical; I sometimes found him too salesmanic (herpetoleogenously). For all that, our tastes often converged, albeit from different directions (but not so much in LatAm, aside from Borges). Anyway, don't let anybody tell you de gustibus non disputatum, especially when in agreement ...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 05, 2007, 09:12:00 AM
pugetopolis:


   "erhaps beppo, martin, elportenito or you can help me with something. What was it like in Argentina What's it like to live under a Dictatorship " 


 Midway in our life's journey, I went astray
  from the straight road and woke to find myself
   alone in a dark wood. How shall I say

what wood that was! I never saw so drear,
   so rank, so arduous a wilderness!
   Its very memory gives a shape to fear.

Death could scarce be more bitter than that place!
   But since it came to good, I will recount
   all that I found revealed there by God's grace.

How I came to it I cannot rightly say,
   so drugged and loose with sleep had I become
   when I first wandered there from the True Way.

But at the far end of that valley of evil
   whose maze had sapped my very heart with fear
   I found myself before a little hill

and lifted up my eyes. Its shoulders glowed
   already with the sweet rays of that planet
   whose virtue leads men straight on every road,

and the shining strengthened me against the fright
   whose agony had wracked the lake of my heart
   through all the terrors of that piteous night.

Just as a swimmer, who with his last breath
   flounders ashore from perilous seas, might turn
   to memorize the wide water of his death—

so did I turn, my soul still fugitive
   from death's surviving image, to stare down
   that pass that none had ever left alive.

And there I lay to rest from my heart's race
   till calm and breath returned to me. Then rose
   and pushed up that dead slope at such a pace

each footfall rose above the last. And lo!
   almost at the beginning of the rise
   I faced a spotted Leopard, all tremor and flow

and gaudy pelt. And it would not pass, but stood
   so blocking my every turn that time and again
   I was on the verge of turning back to the wood.
                                               

Does this , puget,answer your question?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 05, 2007, 09:30:15 AM
pugetopolis: I don't know what Borges felt under Peron's government. As a dictatorship, Peron governemts (*which BTW, were elected governments both of them, Peron didn't take power, he was VOTED as president in normal democratic elections) were mild in comparisson with the dictatorship which started in March 1976 (I won't go into this so that you won't get bored) this dictatorship which killed 30,000 Argentines was backed by Jorge Luis Borges, he agreed with the military then.

Borges was a great writer, and somehow, he could be said was the escence of what an Argentine is, but this at the same time is not a co,mpliment to him or the the rest of us. Borges had in himself that confluence of contradictions which teared appart the country to this day. In borges the fascistoid gene which more or less is carried by all Argentines to some extent, was exsascerbated to the extreme, without being a confesed fascist, Borges had that incling towards an intellectual authoritarianism common to all men of genius as he was, but also common to the average Joe. He couldn't help being intelligent in the things he was intelligent about, but in matters partaining to everyday life he had the intellect of a six years old child or a little gorilla. Like most people with aristocratic forebears, he was an Arese hole, plain and simply.

I saw him once, signing books at a small book shop somewhere at the north end of Florida St, he already looked like a wax statue at Madame Toussaud's , a whiteish transparent complexion, he looked like Borges one would imagine Borges should  look. That was around 1974/5. Long, long time ago. He was then still alive.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 05, 2007, 09:48:34 AM
Condolcezza Farro according to a premonitory tango:

CAMBALACHE  (seccond hand goods store)

as translated by pugetopolis:


"Thin, two quarters of nape of the neck,
and a hanger in the neckline,
under the nut. 

It collides (bow legged), dress of pebeta,(as a teenager)
stained (with her hair dyed) and flirting its bareness etica (etic nakedness)
seemed a(plucked) rooster desplumao,
showing (while boasting her purported ellegance)al compadrear
the leather (beak pinched skin) picoteao. 

I that itself when do (knowing well when I can't take it any more)
not endure more,(seeing her in that state)
al to see it thus I tore, (I ran away to avoid crying)
pa' not to cry. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 05, 2007, 10:49:09 AM
elportenito1

Avatar --

I once came to the door of my great-aunt who had requested my presence. I had dressed in accord with the occasion.  She took one look at me and said, "My goodness, you are an avatar."; or, so I thought.

I had misunderstood her. She had said,"My goodness, you are an atavar".

The mystery that remains between the two is that they are both the latest thing in a long line.

As, when you said," it sounds Indian with coconut and....", Krishna, the shy one, dark hued, was the avatar of Vishnu.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 05, 2007, 10:56:37 AM
nnyhav,re:#213

Gotcha.  The descriptive word example is a bit like my tale above. I thought at first you may have meant he was salamandrine.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 05, 2007, 11:39:03 AM
beppo,re:#408

Thanks for the sample. I shall have to look up Anthony Kerrigan's translations of Neruda. 

For me, the truth of the matter is that Ciardi's translation is as uncomfortable as Ms.Hollander's but in each case it is the contemporary English preference current at the time of publication for each translator.
When Acocella decided to refer to it, by review,of a new translation, the English quoted was "condescending. As you bring to light in your choice of particular verses where Dante encounters the Leopard, Dante was a much more gentle soul than the grandiose declaration of God opens Hollander's opus.

Ciardi, in English, has a certain trippy off-hand mannerism of the Fifties, which is a carry-over from the sort of Archy & Mehitabel verse ("Marquis used Archy to poke fun at this latest fad, and also at free-verse poetry, which then was spreading like influenza through New York's Greenwich Village." circa 1916)popular when he was growing up.

What I apparently failed to convey, in that other forum where this came up, is that even without reading for meaning, when reading the Italian, the lyric flows comfortably and can deliver a better understanding.

Dante continues the vocation  of the Greek Rhapsode


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 05, 2007, 11:47:28 AM
nnyhav,re:#213

Gotcha.  The descriptive word example is a bit like my tale above. I thought at first you may have meant he was salamandrine.
I suppose I could have narrowed it down with ophioleogenously, but t'other seemed more euphonic.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 05, 2007, 01:13:30 PM
pugey -- elport's Inferno cite answered your question best, but not wrt Borges:

1977 article on Borges fronting Videla
http://www.bostonreview.net/BR03.2/kovacs.html

neoconned Hitchens on Williamson on Borges
http://www.powells.com/review/2004_08_24.html



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 05, 2007, 01:19:27 PM
It was strange -living in the days of the Junta- there was a prohibition to get together with more than x people,I can´t remember how many,so there were no rock concerts.If someone told on you for smoking pot you were taken to the precinct,then tied to a bed and the *picana eléctrica* was used to torture you.Anybody could tell on you.You never knew.For example the ex-boy friend of a girl you were dating.You were not allowed to wear tank tops and girls were forbidden to use tops ,those things that wrap around leaving the shoulders bare.If you went to the Cosmos Cinema (artistic films club ) you could be arrested.We tried not to laugh too loud in the street because then police could ask you for your *cedula* -papers- and start asking questions trying to see what you were laughing about! You always had the feeling that you had made something wrong that would make somebody important mad and you would be punished.In the neighborhood people would mutter,"So and so is a Serpico","So and so and his children are guerrilleros","Remember that guy that lived over there,I think he was arrested some nights ago"." There have been people vanishing I´ve heard of" ,"Vanishing where to ?" "Well, they vanish ,how come you don´t know what it means?". All very weird.Not real-maravilloso at all.
  

I agree with what Porteñito says about Borges. I think he backed the militares because he had this complete confusion between the militares who were his ancestors and the Junta ones. Plus he was the typical intellectual in his ivory tower.That is why the Swedes didn´t give him the Nobel.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 05, 2007, 01:26:14 PM
MADDIE, what does Jung tell represents the anima? The Hotel.

If you have BDH Poet´s mail do tell him to come over here.He was working at an art gallery in Santa Fe or thereabouts,last I heard of him.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 05, 2007, 01:28:10 PM
BOQUITA,an avatar is who you are in the web.Like your *doble*.I think Martin Karadagian-el Gran Martin de Titanes en el Ring- is real cool.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 05, 2007, 01:30:04 PM
PUGET,thanks for that linkl on The Wild Palms.Faulkner IS difficult!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 05, 2007, 01:34:35 PM
NNYHAV, I agree with you that the best description ever on *lo real-maravilloso* is in that brief prologue to Carpentier´s The Kingdom of this World.
Well, the guy invented the word! The surrealists sound very poor and like they are making a useless effort.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 06, 2007, 04:06:33 AM
MADDIE, what does Jung tell represents the anima? The Hotel.

If you have BDH Poet´s mail do tell him to come over here.He was working at an art gallery in Santa Fe or thereabouts,last I heard of him.


It's that other person that Puget keeps talking about having.  Jung figured that out while Freud was being an ordinary resident in psychiatry. While Freud was engaging in the physical manifestation of psychoneurosis, Jung was tracing cultural material for his own theory of the collective unconscious cross-cultural but they both did as they did at a moment in history that was, to say the least,inopportune.   A bit like Borges getting himself "co-opted".

Basically Jung says there is a spiritual side or half of  you that is the opposite sex of your usual operational status.  It gets projected outward toward the world, fastening on some poor soul who just happens to be passing by and you either make a mountain or a mole-hill out of their existence until it is over and you move on to the next phase, a step up if you have grown, or learned anything from that experience, but it is much the same.

At any rate if women are appraising men by some undeveloped characteristic of themselves, on the same premise, of overvaluing the object of desire and having to work this out one notch at a time, the basic homeground is a little like that quinta that I think you spoke of your grandparents having with 1/5th.did you say(?) planted. With women it gets passed along the maternal line as an interior.  They are unconscious of it.

In fact this so annoyed Simone de Beauvoir, after her fling in Chicago with Algren, although I don't know what she had so much to complain about compared to George Sand for instance, that de Beauvoir started analyzing how women decorate (which makes me think she never read Edith Wharton)and after pointing out how women furnish objects with clothes in a household, like extensions of themselves, she comes up with this pithy line that I merely paraphrase: "Another little world entirely centered around a hole".  It would probably have been better for literary history if Dorothy Parker had said this.

Maybe she had that dream? Or, she stumbled into a showroom with an art-deco sign on it that said "meubles" which woke her up. But sometime, women arrive at this unconscious interior that is terribly familiar.  If she is just wandering around in it, all is well for the time being. But, wait until it turns into a commune. Some of the collective encountered there are, like the Pontalba apartments, of both sexes, very ordinary in New Orleans in which people generally suppose you are just cross-dressing.

In fact that is I think the conversation I had with bodhipoet when he was making brunch and had the perfect outfit and I didn't explain any too  well the roles we play that we are expected to play. He went to Albuquerque where he had friends and I had friends in the arts, and then he bought an art gallery on the square at Chapel Hill and the last I knew he was entertaining two lady painters from Santa Barbara to a show, so I left it at that as a busy period for him. Well having an art gallery  would be kind of the same thing, "anima", as objects, rather than a person, projected outward as an art. Filling up a space.

So, obviously the Hotel Delicias at Androgues is one of those major mandalas for having a weird experience in a larger than average "art gallery". It or they  usually have certain things always in common,but whether it is a good trip or a bad trip depends.  You know those stairways that go nowhere.  Mine used to have books which give way beneath anyone who tries to make an ascent on them. That was lesson number one. Nothing as major as Cat Man Strouthers having to save the day when Jack Nicholson's typewriter only produces one sentence in The Shining; or anything as absolutely inconvenient in your life plan as Oscar Wilde's: busting him in his hotel suite and being sued for major alienation of affections within a family which was really the bottom line and, in the peculiar quirk of the day among the English, ending up in Reading. Like,"compulsory Reading".

Does this give you some idea of the concept of the unconscious,anima being projected as a "place". We usually think of it as a person;but, in this story about the hotel at Androgues, he experiences the place.





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 05:49:21 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/feb/b9f/febb9f5c-0358-4efe-b334-e859d7d4329d)

Borges, Peron and Today

Midway in our life's journey, I went astray

Sounds familiar…

Peron didn't take power, he was VOTED as president in normal democratic elections

Sounds familiar…

It was strange -living in the days of the Junta

Sounds very familiar…

I suppose I could have narrowed it down with ophioleogenously, but t'other seemed more euphonic.

Sounds like déjà vu…

“The Wheel fell to the Cross (in Runic crosses the two enemy emblems coexist, intertwined), but the secret battle between John and Aurelian continued”—Borges, “The Theologians,” Fictions, 203



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 05:50:38 AM
pugey—elport's Inferno cite answered your question best, but not wrt Borges:

“Shortly after the coup, the new head of government, General Jorge Videla, invited Borges to lunch…

“One such work entitled Cosmogonias appeared in September 1976. This luxurious volume contains only six poems by Borges (of which four had appeared in previous collections) Each poem is accompanied by sumptuous illustrations done by a well-known Argentinean artist. This is the ultimate coffee table book, the supreme object in the cult of Borges…”

“In addition to deluxe editions, the cult of Borges has spawned a new subgenre which might be called paraliterary or hagiographic works "on" or "with Borges." An entire shelf could be filled with all the "interviews," "talks," and "dialogues" in which he has recently participated…”

“To those who are familiar with his writings, Borges's transformation into a public personality is of supreme irony. As he once noted, "My opinions have no importance. Only my works matter." This is not false modesty on the author's part. He considers the details of his life to be without interest. Like Henry James or Flaubert, Borges has defined his existence in terms of two activities: reading and writing…”

“Borges's protagonists tend to be shadowy figures. Their creator is interested in their works rather than in their origins, background, or psychological motivation. Thus while their ideas are presented in a concrete fashion, they are nearly nonexistent as men…”

“In numerous poems, essays, and short stories he suggests that the notion of individual personality is but an illusion fostered by an equally false notion of linear time. At other intersections of space and time an individual may be totally different--even the opposite--of what he appears to be now…”


If you went to the Cosmos Cinema (artistic films club ) you could be arrested. We tried not to laugh too loud in the street because then police could ask you for your *cedula* -papers- and start asking questions trying to see what you were laughing about!


Sounds eerily familiar…



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 05:51:56 AM
pugey—but not wrt Borges:

“Thus in The Other Death the coward dies as a hero on the battlefield; in The Circular Ruins the dreamer is an invention of someone else; in Pierre Menard, Author of 'Don Quijote' the reader is the creator of the work of art.”

“In Pierre Menard the notion of interchangeable identities receives its fullest and most complex elaboration. Menard is a contemporary French man of letters who sets out to compose two chapters of Don Quijote. His aim is not to copy but to invent them…That is to say, in the act of reading, Menard develops the implications of Cervantes's text, thereby transforming the Spaniards work into a kind of "palimpsest" in which traces of Menard's future are visible...”

“In this paradoxical manner, Borges underscores the importance of the reader in the creative process. Like the author, the reader actively participates in the elaboration of the work of art…”

“For this reason, in the preface to his first collection of poems published in 1923 (Fervor de Buenos Aires) Borges apologized to his reader for having "usurped" his verses and said, "it is but a trivial and fortuitous circumstance that you are the reader of these exercises and I am the author…”

“If the reader is such an important element in the creative process, if (as is the case of Pierre Menard and Cervantes) reader and author are fused, then an author's name and the details of his life ultimately do not matter…”

"The fact that when I am writing I am stressing certain peculiarities of mind and omitting others has led me to think of Jorge Luis Borges as a creature of fancy. This suspicion is strengthened by the existence of so many articles and studies that deal with him…"

“In a famous passage entitled, "Borges and I," he even suggests that the other Borges, "the one whom things happen to," has preempted his very existence…”

“And that is the paradox underlying the current cult of Borges in Argentina…”



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 05:53:43 AM
BOQUITA, an avatar is who you are in the web. Like your *double*.

“…the principle of "biographical invisibility"

I picked up and opened my copy of Edwin Williamson’s Borges: A Life. I hadn’t read it yet—but now I must. The chapter I opened to was “Borges Against Peron (1950-1955) with page 311 beginning:

“The paranoia that imbues “The Waiting” reflects the rising tension in Argentina at the time…”

My Double leaned back with his drink and said: “It’s already happening again…”



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 05:56:38 AM
pugey—but not wrt Borges:

“In addition to falsifying his image, the cult of Borges has taken on certain ideological overtones…”

“It now provides indirect justification for the present government in Argentina. Borges's support of the military regime of Videla seems to be founded upon his intense dislike of Videla's predecessor, Juan Peron. This dislike began in the 1940s even before Peron became President for the first time. A liberal who had favored the Spanish Republic, Borges objected to Peron's fascistic policies and in particular to his support of Nazi Germany. When Peron became President, he demoted Borges from his post as municipal librarian to the rank of poultry inspector. He even imprisoned the writer's mother and sister…”

“When the Peronists were again elected in 1973, he called it a "government of scoundrels." In an interview with a Brazilian newspaper in 1975 he said: "When I think of the cases of torture [in Argentina] I have the impression that my country is disintegrating morally as well as economically." In March 1976, when a friend informed him that Isabela Peron had been overthrown, Borges embraced him and wept. When he met Videla, he thanked him for "having liberated the country from the infamy which we bore…”

“Borges hated Peron because he was a demagogue who practiced torture and suppressed civil liberties. And yet, he has now become a staunch supporter of a regime which is not substantially different. One can only conclude that he no longer espouses those principles of democracy which Peron threatened to destroy thirty years ago. In fact, when he was in Chile last year to receive that country's highest medal he said: "In and of itself a dictatorship doesn't seem reprehensible, one has to consider the particular circumstances. In itself empires don't seem to be wrong. The Roman Empire and the British Empire did a lot of good…”



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 05:57:56 AM
It was strange -living in the days of the Junta…You always had the feeling that you had made something wrong that would make somebody important mad and you would be punished…

“It is difficult to reconcile this image of Borges, spokesman for military dictatorships such as that of Videla or even Pinochet, with that of the Borges who wrote Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius, the story of a group of scholars who invent a planet…”

“They elaborate all of the aspects of life on Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius—its philosophical system, languages, ethics, and customs—Tlon becomes "real"…”

“Implicit in Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis, Tertius and in many of his stories is Borges's belief that the universe is incomprehensible. Any efforts to order experience are ultimately revealed to be false and inadequate. His skepticism extends to the realm of politics...”

“If that is the case, then he has betrayed those ideals which have infused all of his works. One can only conclude that the other Borges, the public figure, has taken over at last. Years ago the author himself foresaw this possibility: "little by little I am giving over everything to him, though I am quite aware of his perverse custom of falsifying and magnifying things..."

“In spite of his awareness of this danger, Borges has allowed his namesake to enter the political arena, where he now plays a key role in the propaganda apparatus of the Videla government. It is indeed to be regretted that he has become that government's most prestigious spokesman for the status quo, for it is a status quo built upon the destruction of democratic institutions and the repeated violation of human rights…”

“An example of this was seen in May 1976, when Borges met with Videla. Three other writers were present: Ernesto Sibato, Leonardo Castellani, and Horacio Esteban Ratti, President of the Writer's Union (SADE).”

“Because he objected to their presence, Borges undermined the potential power of public opinion which the Writer's Union had hoped to muster. In this instance, as a "living monument of national letters," he gave tacit approval to the regime's repressive policies…”

“Abroad, potential critics of the regime may be disarmed--after all, a government which has the support of Jorge Luis Borges can't be all that bad.”



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 05:59:51 AM
de gustibus non disputatum

After reading Katherine Singer Kovac’s “Borges on the Right” essay in The Boston Review, I stopped dead in my tracks. This business of the Other is serious business—when the Other is appropriated, commandeered and subverted by TPTB for their own nefarious purposes.

I looked behind my chair, I looked under my bed, I even looked in my closet. This Other of mine that I’ve been cultivating, spoiling like a kept boy—this adolescent literary doppelganger of mine. I can feel him reacting to what I’ve just read...perhaps as Borges did with "The Other" and "August 25, 1983."

That he says he knows better than me what I’m writing now is somewhat disconcerting...the nerve of him saying that he is the real me...

Biographical invisibility can be so tiresome...

Not only in short stories and dreams...

But also there in Buenos Aires and the Beltway...


Title: Re: What's This Got To Do With Latin American Literature?
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 06:23:51 AM
"...Oscar Wilde's: busting him in his hotel suite
and being sued for major alienation of affections
within a family which was really the bottom line and,
in the peculiar quirk of the day among the English,
ending up in Reading. Like, "compulsory Reading"."


 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

What does this have to do with Borges, Peron or Latin American Literature?

Why does Madupont keep interrupting Threads in different forums?

Her Elba contributions would be more appreciated if she would only stay on topic.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 08:58:38 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/feb/b9f/febb9f5c-0358-4efe-b334-e859d7d4329d)

Dear nnyhav, elportenito, martinbeck, beppo,

Thank you for helping me with my question about Borges and Peron. I understand now more about the political and cultural background of Borges' novels, short stories and poetry. I also understand now why many people feel perplexed by Borges and why he perhaps didn't get the Nobel Prize.

I have the Edwin Williamson biography and will be reading it this weekend.

I revised and shortened my responses to your helpful answers in the above notes. Absorbing that much information and responding to it takes a great deal of effort. I'm exhausted now after reading all this Borges material and won't be able to post here in your Latin Literature forum until next week sometime.

Hoffman and I will be reading Faulkner's Wild Palms next week -- hopefully we can get into the nuances of Borges' translation. Perhaps if you gentlemen have time, you could help us with some of the Spanish translation? We'd like to know why Gabriel Garcia Marquez and other Latin American writers were so impressed with Wild Palms -- in terms of Borges' translation.

(It's been drawn to my attention that the Borges.png picture accompanying my Borges-Peron notes above doesn't show up on some Explorer browsers, so I've reposted it as a Borges.jpg picture.)

Thank you again for the interesting conversation...

Puget


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 06, 2007, 10:10:28 AM
re:#435

In responding to a post from martinbeck3 who had a valid question,listed in a quote at the top of my response:

Quote from: martinbeck3 on September 05, 2007, 01:26:14 PM
MADDIE, what does Jung tell represents the anima? The Hotel.

Responded to at 4:06:33A.M. Today

You will find a valid answer addressing the issue in regard to the Hotel Delicias at Androgue




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 06, 2007, 10:56:11 AM
PUGET, that´s right Madupont was answering my question on how a hotel could be  the anima.

I wonder if she is not your anima :)    :)    :)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on September 06, 2007, 01:50:40 PM
I'm off on holiday - Catalonia - see y'all in twa' weeks...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 06, 2007, 02:47:06 PM
September in Portugal
http://www.wordswithoutborders.org/?lab=HatoumIntrusive

Bolaño
Self Portrait at Twenty Years
http://www.threepennyreview.com/samples/bolano_f07.html
Review, Savage Detectives et al
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n17/kunk01_.html
Coming to America
http://www.ndpublishing.com/books/bolanonaziliterature.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 06, 2007, 02:47:41 PM
I'm off on holiday - Catalonia - see y'all in twa' weeks...



Have a good time,Beppo.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 03:50:29 PM
PUGET, that´s right Madupont was answering my question on how a hotel could be  the anima.

I wonder if she is not your anima :)    :)    :)

More like my enema than my anima  ??? ??? ???


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 03:55:55 PM
PUGET, that´s right Madupont was answering my question on how a hotel could be  the anima.

Oh, I get it. Mad's insightful Jungian remarks include "London" hotels not just "Buenos Aires" hotels?

That's how she can get to trash Oscar Wilde too?

"...Oscar Wilde's: busting him in his hotel suite
and being sued for major alienation of affections
within a family which was really the bottom line and,
in the peculiar quirk of the day among the English,
ending up in Reading. Like, "compulsory Reading"."


 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

What does Wilde's hotel have to do with Borges, Peron or Latin American Literature?




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 06, 2007, 04:03:30 PM
I would  have sworn that I saw him in here last night. I didn't bring him up out of nowhere.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 04:20:42 PM
I didn't bring him up out of nowhere.

It's hard to follow any of your meandering messages, my dear.

Sometimes I think your laptop is an Ouija Board and you commune with the dead.

I suppose that's why you got kicked off the NYTimes Book Forum twice...

And now you're playing the same game here...

Your vaudeville act was tired and old then...

The same now, Mad....



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 06, 2007, 05:07:17 PM
nnyhav,re:#440

Although I had been aware of the first Bolano book-- now due for publication at New Directions, at the time that I was last  at that website (might have been for that nice photo of Denise Levertov, or, what she was like when she first arrived from Europe and long before we met. I was looking for a really good bio to post), the excerpt about Edelmira Mendiluce was not yet up. Or, did you  have a connecting link?  It was astounding to read  following what I had replied to martinbeck the night before. When you posted  the link for --Nazi Literature in America, Edelmira was the perfect example of this trait in which like a Construction artist of the 1980s, she constructs a room before she writes about it.  I would have said, before she can write about Poe's Room, she has to put the room together or she wouldn't write a thing; which is very weird because she doesn't actually write it (the Shining syndrome, all over again) but instead does what those Eighties Construction artists did, who never intended to "Write". They simply wanted to show their "piece" in some gallery, maybe a co-op, and "document it" on paper.

It did have an eerie similarity to the aura felt when reading a book about Longwood that I recommended to Furphy last weekend, she wanted a good bio of Napoleon (and I could not remember who the biographer was of what I had read as a young person), also depending on whether she wanted to read it in French or English, in other words from what viewpoint, but it all came down to this ending at Longwood.

The actual title is --
 The Black Room at Longwood: Napoleon's Exile on Saint Helena by Jean-Paul Kauffmann 
 

Anyway have been looking forward to the release of NLiA , by the new editor at New Directions. The former editor who was the founder of New Directions, James Laughlin, now deceased, was an intimate friend of my mentor Kenneth Rexroth. I think that I should have gone to work for him about 25 years ago instead of getting side-tracked.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 06, 2007, 05:15:02 PM
The former editor who was the founder of New Directions, James Laughlin, now deceased, was an intimate friend of my mentor Kenneth Rexroth. I think that I should have gone to work for him about 25 years ago instead of getting side-tracked.

Yawn. More name-dropping, Mad?

The next thing you'll say is you knew all the Beatniks...and Walt Whitman too!

I'd love to see your vanity license plates, my dear:

"I Knew Them All..."


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 07, 2007, 08:23:52 AM
beppo: You'll like Catalunya, go to the little medioeval towns of:Besalu, Pera Tallada,and eat butifarra with mongetes. and always remember:

Els catalans no som espanyols!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 07, 2007, 08:37:57 AM
nnyhav : Thank you for the articles


1977 article on Borges fronting Videla

http://www.bostonreview.net/BR03.2/kovacs.html

especialy the above, from 1977, we didn't then had access to it. Do you know that the Junta government prohibited the teaching of modern mathematics at secondary schools?.....And all university deans and many professors were replaced with others chosen by the Junta, etc.

neoconned Hitchens on Williamson on Borges

http://www.powells.com/review/2004_08_24.html 




But I don't think things are any better now.





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 09, 2007, 02:31:53 PM
http://www.powells.com/review/2004_08_24.html

Was it just old age or was it disgust with the unions and masses...

...that turned Borges into a fascist pig?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 10, 2007, 01:36:56 PM
PUGET, half or more of Argentina was tired of strikes, bombs,shooting of union leaders,Falcon cars going full speed with rifles pointing out and guys that would kick your car if you passed by too close, and al the anarchy of Isabelita´s rule -after Peron died- so the coup was welcomed by many who imagined order would be restored.

I suppose that JLB ,being the super-anti-peronista he had been all his life agreed to.If you mix this,with his upper class birth and his admiration for the militares (remember he was not admitted into military school because of his eyesight) as shown in so many of his poems ,specially the ones dedicated to his heoic ancestors who died in battle you have an explosive cocktail.

It is a pity that when things turned for the worst he didn´t repent and kept quiet about all the attrocities.It is also strange because he had always hated Mussolini and Hitler and he had been pro-allied forces during WWII and admired USA´s democracy (see his poem on JFK, his essay on Whitman).

This is a black stain on his life, an attitude the world will never forgive and which shames many of us his admirers.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 10, 2007, 09:59:13 PM
The same thing happened to Ezra Pound in Italy...

He ended up in St. Elizabeth's for 13 years as a "fascist."

Oddly enough he wrote some of his best poetry during that time...

And ended up with the Bollingen Prize...

Poets seem to get in the middle of things don't they?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 11, 2007, 10:12:48 AM
...nothing strange about Borges' behaviour. He was a member of Argentina's "aristocracy", the ussual New World story, if you scratch a few generations back you'll see someone escaping to the New World for whatever reason, and in the meantime doing some dirthy business in order to start a new life, maybe murders, rrobery under arms, or dealings with people in high places. Then few generations back their descendants, surrounded by wealth, slaves and pampered life, forget or  simply can't remember or imagine theorigines of their fortune, and despice anyone who can't show their "immacukate" "nobel" background.

This leads to a jaundiced view of life in general, and the country where they live in particular, it could be a plantation in Southern USA or a meat salting works in the still to be Argentine Pampas and now simply a backwards outpost of the Spanish Empire as Buenops Aires was in the XVIII and XIXth centuries. There you would've found Borges' forebears. Rancid olygarchs who would in the future give birth to the fascistoid upper class who comulgated with the Great Satan of the Pampas: Jorge Rafael Videla when he started his reign of terror and death. To this days you'll finf his apollogetic supporters at the newspaper sponsorerd forae in Argentine cyberspace.

In the same way that the death of a gaucho was no news for the estancia owners in Borge' historic family circle, to these ad-honorem apollogetic obsequious nitwits the deaths caused by Videla and his cohort of demons is also something merely anecdotical, in the great order of things which they purport to understand and dominate,  the pledge of ordinary men and women is worth nothing, their voices a mere source of contemptuous  merryment.

Borges backed the military coup because he always despiced the "chuzma" that was for him the people of Argentina, his idealized "South" was populated by mythical characters made of something else than what realy was and of which the South realy was made. This South of the city of Buenos Aires where the Pink Corner was or so Borges tells us,smelled in reality of sweath, something Borges never realy understood as intrinsecal to the human condition.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 11, 2007, 10:33:02 AM
and now for some "magic realism"...


Sect leader facing rape trial to use faith as his defence.
 
Ian Munro Herald Correspondent in New York and agencies


September 11, 2007


THE US is both religious and religiously tolerant, but if the nation's founding fathers could have imagined someone like Warren Jeffs, they may not have been so ready to embrace freedom of worship.

Jeffs, 51, the leader of a polygamous Mormon sect, is about to stand trial for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl. He is reputed to have dozens of wives, some inherited from his father.

The girl was married to her 19-year-old cousin in 2001, and the marriage consummated weeks later, all at Jeffs insistence. She will be the principal witness against Jeffs, who took over formal leadership of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints when his father died in 2002.

As the church's leader, or "prophet", Jeffs claims to be in direct contact with God and therefore determines who can marry whom. The girl reportedly twice told Jeffs she did not want to marry or have sex. He is allleged to have told her it was her spiritual duty and that it was sanctioned by God.

In addition to the girl, two men are expected to give evidence about Jeffs's interference in their sexual relations with their wives, and about his instructions to persist with underage weddings regardless of state law. By Jeffs's reasoning, to oppose him is to oppose the will of God, although divine guidance failed him in August last year. He had been on the run when police stopped him for having an illegible car number plate, and he was arrested.

While the trial is about justice for one woman, it is also likely to excite public interest for its insights into the 12,000-strong community Jeffs leads.

The community, where immodest, short-sleeved shirts and movies are banned, exists in two towns either side of the Utah-Arizona border in remote desert country - Hildale and Colorado City.

Jeffs reportedly has excommunicated more than 100 men, taking their wives and children from them and placing them with other men.

Teenage boys are expelled for going to the movies, or looking at girls with interest. A welfare worker in nearby St George says teenagers are expelled almost weekly and left to fend for themselves in a mainstream society for which they are unprepared. Many end up in trouble with the law.

In the past five years about 2000 teens had been ordered out with no support and forbidden to contact their parents, said Michelle Benward, vice-president of the support group New Frontiers for Families.

"The mothers are living in such fear," Ms Benward said. "Most of them have 10 or 12 children. If they are once held as misbehaving they are told they could be reassigned to another husband or their other children can be taken away.

"There's thousands that have either been invited to leave or have left because they can't deal with the level of scrutiny. I have a couple of hundred I have contact with … hundreds of boys and 10 girls."

Polygamy is illegal in Utah, although it is not a factor in Jeffs's trial. However, the trial will hear evidence of Jeffs urging his followers to maintain the practice.

A spokesman for the Utah Attorney-General, Paul Murphy, said there were 30,000 polygamists in the state. Instead of charging people with polygamy, officers were told to focus on child abuse, fraud and domestic violence.

Mr Murphy said jury selection had begun last Friday.

Defence lawyers will argue that Jeffs is being prosecuted for his faith. Officiating at a wedding ceremony did not make him an accomplice to rape, a defence lawyer, Walter Bugden, is reported to have said.

Ms Benward, who is about to open a home for excommunicated teens, said it was not polygamy but Jeffs who created problems for his cult.

"There are other polygamous groups in Utah that do very well. The problem is having a tyrannical, obsessed, deranged leader."


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 11, 2007, 12:46:15 PM
Seems to be a certain lack of discrimination in all the recrimination ...
http://www.thevalve.org/go/valve/article/more_on_dawkins/

AFAICR, Borges' only comment on LDS (not the fundy sex sects) concerned their genealogy project, one echoed in the afterword to The Encyclopedia of the Dead by that other cryptofascistoid, Danilo Kiš
http://www.themodernword.com/Borges/borges_infl_kis.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 11, 2007, 01:00:48 PM
BOCA:

you are forgetting that most guerrilleros were not working class people but "aristocrats" -like Abal Medina,Patricia Bullrich and so many others) and upper middle class like Galimberti and 99% of ERP and Montoneros.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 11, 2007, 01:14:54 PM
elportenito1 re: #455

I'm supposing that you are, or are not, familiar with the US tv series on HBO Big Love, which investigates all the twists and turns of Utah polygamy by   sugaring the plot in a comedic vein to make it palatable introduction for the thought process to cope with as one by one the facts drop on your plate.

For instance, why the hero of the series, with the three wives with kids (and a business) was run off as a teenager by The Prophet, played by Harry Dean Stanton, and succeeded anyway unlike the unprepared reported in the news article, if the the leader, of such an illicit group not recognized by government except when it presents itself as a fundamentalist religion, I repeat: if the leader has the right to control the proportionment of wives with emphasis on their child-bearing ability, in order for the older board members  to prevail in the vote they do what the pecking order did since tribalism. They run off the coming up adolescent boys who are becoming interested in girls.

In regard to the other matter that martinbeck 3 and you have both explained re:#454, may I offer another closer to home food for thought.

I never read Borges, so was curious to see how he was interpreted here in this forum.  When I read a writer who is being translated, I have since the 1950s always begun reading the exiles who must live abroad to continue their work, even if it is difficult for them to be away from their original inspiration; the best of them understand that they have what used to be called a "cosmopolitan" vocation.

I think, as a rule of thumb, if you find one of the top publishing houses in the US laying out publicity money for reviews in the best read large circulation periodicals,whether dailies, weeklies, monthly or quarterly literary publications, especially while what used to pass for the CIA is actively pushing a disinformation program to present either the Administration "interests" or the official yet also sub-rosa line of some particular party (for instance, it is interesting that if you go on line to the Republican National Committee, at this time, to ask about any interesting quote found in the on-line media that you wish to quote back to them for verification, you will find no contact on their website, nada. They operate as a closed system)--

and this apparatus suddenly heralds the find of a new literary trend, i.e. "magic realism" which was not defined as early as some readers seem to imply, and the promulgator who is of course a Genius of the first order, a new literary great, as they did with Borges, who gradually will be taken up within academe (one of the reasons that currently the enthusiastic red-state spinner still vituperates against "liberal intellectuals
teaching in the universities", is because they are that out of touch with the reality of their own party loyalties  to their own brand of intellectuals who profess Americanism at the approved universities and colleges which they have always supported) and the inevitable papers will okay your degree and your placement which will give you a free pass to fuck over and gut the wage-earner, heavy duty, much more than even the sect in Utah, although the LDS itself does keep all our US genealogies on tap);well, as I've observed the process of popularization, I avoid the left-over cliches condemning the Thirties and I don't submit myself to literary brainwashing from the so-rewarding Right.

An interesting point about Ezra, Pound not Ibn, although I named a bear that, because Teddy Rooseveldt was not my schtick, the bear had to be a prophet who saw wheels within wheels, Kenneth Rexroth was at Aix,Provence when Ezra Pound saw the desirability of staying in Rapallo. They were connected through William Carlos Williams.  I have on occasion written about that closer connection with the poet H.D. who was engaged to Pound and the events that occurred with Williams and others attending a house party in New Jersey, a beach party of sorts for which they had come down from New York, just before Pound left for Europe; during the course of the party,H.D. tried to drown herself and was rescued by Dr. Williams.  I did a lot of research there for several years in the early 80s, since Eugene O'Neill also lived there in the vicinity for a short while at the Jersey Shore.

When Pound was in England he began working on the Fenollosa readings of the Chinese characters. A number of poets began working from this format to present reworkings of Chinese poets. When Rexroth returned from Aix,Paris,etc., he mentioned to his close friend James Laughlin, because he himself had "had it up to here", that Jim ought to go over to Ezra's to take up the job that he had turned down since Pound was looking for a secretary.  The result of which was that Laughlin startled into reality did perceive one inspiration from what Europe had that the US did not, and Jim Laughlin came back to found New Directions as a small house to start with which would have international writers to publish as in Europe.  I believe he started on the Bolano project prior to his death because I have copies with earlier publication dates than those  in new editions after Jim's death when a protege continued the program of translations from Spanish.

Pound, however married Dorothy Shakespear, founder of Shakespear and Co., bookstore in Paris.  The poet that I mentioned(in regard to Rilke) to nnyhav, George John, at the end of WW2, when he was demobilized, took his buddies to the bookstore requesting to be allowed to visit Gertrude Stein and Alice, so that he could question Gertrude thoroughly and they could look at the famous paintings. That's what G.I.s did in those days.

Following the original Pisan Cantos, Pound's greatest contributions were to Economics, which some note are the content of his later Cantos. Lest somebody go up in arms, I think it is apparent where this quote comes from since it "desires a citation"but it says with clarity what I think will interest you as to how it applies today, so why should I reword it?:

"Pound believed that economics was the core issue at hand. Specifically, his talks were largely about usury and the notion that representative democracy has been usurped by bankers' infiltration of governments through the existence of central banks, which made governments pay interest to private banks for the use of their own money. He maintained that the central bank's ability to create money out of thin air allowed banking interests to buy up American and British media outlets to sway opinion in favor of the war and the banks. Pound was not the first prominent American to make this assertion; for example New York City Mayor John Hylan had publicly said the same thing back in 1922 when he said "these international bankers control the majority of the magazines and newspapers in this country." Pound believed that economic freedom was a prerequisite for a free country. Inevitably, he touched on political matters, and incorporated anti-Semitism into his denunciations of the war. [citation needed]"

If he had kept his mouth shut instead of fixating on Jews, who were being marginalized and about to be exterminated in Europe) more might have listened and none of us would be enduring what we have once again on our hands now. Same banking,same media,same politics as usual.

If you go back to that source and  read how  Pound was  monitored by our gov't in the US, sort of a pre-FISA ( I mean, you didn't think George,jr. came up with this non-Constitutional stuff all on his little pea-brained own did you?), you begin to understand why the poets came to visit him in St.Elizabeth's asylum until he could be released. While there he translated the Confucian classics.

Allen Ginsberg, in close reading of the Cantos, which had used Fenollosa's fragments for characters, when using the concrete imagery which remains in Chinese poetry and language structure, grasped the parataxis and applied it, although I think in many ways that attribution overlooks how William Carlos Williams,Ginsberg's mentor, had originally used this.

This again, is something I more thoroughly studied from the early 70s. Somebody gave the whole shebang complete Cantos as a present to me at that time, and then stole it back from me while I was in the process of moving and bundled all those works including the Rexroth editions together while I was relocating. I have appealed to those who survived Rexroth to apply a little pressure for me but apparently this is useless when dealing with somebody's anal complex of acquisitiveness.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 11, 2007, 01:31:46 PM
BOCA [...]
you're just going to confuse things by referring to slicknoodle as bocajr


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 11, 2007, 02:09:52 PM
elportenito1,

By the way, that former mayor of New York, Hylan was not the only one who discussed the banking/government connection pre-Crash of '29.

The Republican Congressman from Minnesota, Charles Lindbergh,sr. was the first. "He published a few books. In 1913, he wrote Banking, Currency, and the Money Trust, and in 1917 he wrote "Why is Your Country at War?," blaming high finance on the U.S. involvement in World War I. According to Eustace Mullins, plates of this book were confiscated and destroyed by Government agents"


His name as given above, father of the renowned aviator Lucky Lindy,was an alias.  He knew about the northern tier of the Midwest, same as did the father of the Baroness von Blixen,Karen Blixen aka Isak Dinesen,the Danish writer. Her father went to Wisconsin and lived among the Chippewa. Lindbergh's father came from Sweden, perhaps from Germany, where he was an extortionist who had pulled a bank heist--which is why he knew so much about bankers and banks--but was also a bigamist, who naturally gravitated to Minnesota out of the limelight until his  knowledge got the better of him and in a short time his son was known throughout the world and married to J.P.Morgan's lawyer Dwight Morrow.

So, Jack Perkins who wrote, I was an Economic Hit-Man, was not the first.

Incidentally as Perkins points out, this banking connection was in place before Head of CIA GHW B began dabbling in South American politics as well as Central American, by being able to loan American tax-payer money for para-military police operations there, as well he had in Africa which brought about the killing of Patrice Lumumba.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 11, 2007, 02:19:54 PM
... blaming high finance on the U.S. involvement in World War I. ...
If it wasn't for WWI, finance wouldn't have become elevated? A dubious preposition ...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 11, 2007, 05:10:32 PM
... blaming high finance on the U.S. involvement in World War I. ...
If it wasn't for WWI, finance wouldn't have become elevated? A dubious preposition ...


nnyhav,

"blaming high finance on the U.S. involvement in World War I."  I first heard of this, although the above quote is not from the same volume, in --
The Airman and the Carpenter: The Lindbergh Kidnapping and the Framing of Richard Hauptman by Ludovic Kennedy.

I'm not sure which edition that I read,Viking? Collins? because one day at the beginning of March 1988, I walked up the long block across from John McPhee's childhood home, to buy some milk or something at Davvison's on the corner of Nassau and Maple streets in Princeton. When I got to the corner to cross the street, I freeked at what I saw in the newspaper box and couldn't belief it, so I put in a quarter or two, whatever, to pull out the headline which said, Lindbergh Baby Kidnapped.   

It was of course the anniversary of that event. Princeton people take their history terribly seriously. For some reason, I had not realized that, for ten months, I had been occasionally going back and forth to Hopewell and it hadn't rung any bells in my head vis a vis the kidnapping.

I immediately went to the Witherspoon street public library and found this book.  From then on, I read almost every book to better get to know all the local characters like Colonel Schwartzkopf of the Jersey State Police who was the father of the man we know better in terms of the Gulf War. Later, when I lived down the street from their house out at Lawrenceville, I began to get a better picture  of all that was involved. I have a friend who was raised at Princeton Junction who responded(when I described the house) that she could picture little Norman running behind the hedges in a baby-blanket for a cape, with a folded  newspaper helmet on his head and a wooden sword in his hand.

Let's skip to the chase. Dwight Morrow was called by Morgan, at the end of the War to end all Wars, to  gather together a consortium to finance aid to European survivors and to administer it.

Previous to the war, Woodrow Wilson had been the president of Princeton University, then Governor of New Jersey (Morrow lived in Englewood,N.J. by the way, if I remember correctly), and then became a Democrat President. Most of his legislation was notably of the kind considered overwhemingly Democrat today, and then he topped it with the Federal Reserve System. You are undoubtably familiar with the whole Versailles fiasco and the other legends about pettycoat government but in any case the Republicans had strong motivations to get a handle on some of this. Whereas Morrow took care of the legalities, Pierre duPont was Morgan's --what should I call it, his,"Felix Rohatyn of the day ". Pierre, who had been the family's Company  traveling book-keeper since he was eighteen, was able to juggle figures in a way that Morgan appreciated so that loan repayments were not due until dates later than payments due  American Life Assurance Company (was I believe the insurance company) about which Ludovic Kennedy describes this transaction.

Despite his continued services in partnership with Morgan, Dwight Morrow was also named Ambassador to Mexico from 1927 to 1930 under the Coolidge administration and had the forethought to take his daughter Ann along with him on an official trip there that coincided with the arrival of young Lindbergh whom he seated next to his daughter.  Whatever he knew about the young man's  father, in terms of his actual background or his attitude toward the relationship of banking and government, he raised no objection to the engagement which he brought about.

 
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 12, 2007, 10:17:42 AM
martinbeck3: ..."me hirve la cabeza"....madupont left me speechless.

Well....is always those who've learn to think the ones who stirr it, isn't it, Martin. And books cost money and learning takes time and time is money and oligarch have plenty of both in their hands, ergo: Structured thinking like gourmet eating is for the few. Which doesn't nescessary mean that being among the few should make you a bastard. You can be called Osvaldo Pugliese or Atahualpa Yupanqui and still get your royalties and your Communist Party membership, all with the same hand.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 12, 2007, 10:25:03 AM
madupont: Aix en Provence, nice place, I've been there three months ago. A smart dressed nunn, in jeans and a blue blazer jacket  and crowned by stylish white hair took us for a tour of the Cathedral's cloyster, just by chance.

 You know, madupont, you are a bit of a Borgesean character, your encyclopaedic knowledge and your ability to recall such amount of data and then string it in sentences reminds me of Funes el Memorioso, one of Borges' characters. You should read Borges.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 12, 2007, 08:49:57 PM
You know, madupont, you are a bit of a Borgesean character, your encyclopaedic knowledge and your ability to recall such amount of data and then string it in sentences reminds me of Funes el Memorioso, one of Borges' characters. You should read Borges.

Elportenitio...tell me. Do I remind you of any Borges character?  :)

Just curious, my friend...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 12, 2007, 11:16:48 PM
It's Portuguese month at http://www.wordswithoutborders.org/

mad: OK, it was just that wars are so often blamed on the financiers that it struck me as odd to see that trope reversed.

reader: I'm afraid to ask ... (fyi slicknoodle derives from 'fettucciniconolio', boca's prior handle)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 13, 2007, 03:49:59 AM
(http://www.alvarovillarrubiaonline.com/images/albums/NewAlbum_7ca74/tn_1_Javier_Bardem.jpg)

Reinaldo Arenas

“Like all the writers of his/her generation,
s/he (I think this technique works, don’t you?)
imitated Fifo and had secret sexual fantasies
about the great leader.”—Reinaldo Arenas,
“The Anglo-Campesina,” The Color of Summer,
New York: Viking, 2000.


pound fell for mussolini—
like james fell for the queen…

evita wasn’t the only one—
borges secretly loved him too.

like many argentine aristocrats—
borges was a peron closet-case.

disillusionment sets in tho—
like with reinaldo arenas.

tonight this brief note—
scribbled in the margins.

on page 198—
the color of summer



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 13, 2007, 09:23:08 AM
madupont: Aix en Provence, nice place, I've been there three months ago. A smart dressed nunn, in jeans and a blue blazer jacket  and crowned by stylish white hair took us for a tour of the Cathedral's cloyster, just by chance.

 You know, madupont, you are a bit of a Borgesean character, your encyclopaedic knowledge and your ability to recall such amount of data and then string it in sentences reminds me of Funes el Memorioso, one of Borges' characters. You should read Borges.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 13, 2007, 09:40:52 AM
Gee-whiz,el portenito1,

Maybe I have photos of you? My friend from the former Western European forum likes to send me his slides every now and then;when I didn't hear from him following Bastille Day, I took it for granted he took his vacance and was somewhere off and about. Not odd, you might coincide in the same area of the Cote d'Azur.  In his case, born and bred and the banlieu outside Paris but working in the city, this is normally what Frenchmen do in the hot-months of summer. They get longer time off than same level workers in the US but Sarkozy promised them their custom will end, and the creche system so women can work, to be more in accord with the Bushes whom Sarko visited at Kennebunkport.

S. doesn't want any gd Socialists making waves on his private beach where he was previously Mayor at Neuilly.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 13, 2007, 10:12:13 AM
el portenito1,re:#470

I don't feel like a Borges character; he would never have known me.
You forget that I received my education from someone who was a member of the I.W.W. and taught on the same faculty as Marcuse. (as I said, my father did not believe in the education of women.  Nowadays, more often I still encounter men who prefer that women not appear to be their intellectual equivalents. But, you see, I have nothing to gain for accepting that status; or any other projection).

I'm sure Aix is not the same this past June as it was 77 years ago when Rexroth first went, somehow in conjunction with connecting to the painters and writers about the manifesto of Surrealisme. They say he went out of Hoboken on a tramp steamer? In any cage Picasso's ideology was being widely adapted among surrealistes; the between the Wars,world-wide Depression was underway. (and it was certainly not the same at Aix in 1949 after the war but Rexroth was a journalist as well as poet).


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 13, 2007, 10:16:47 AM
Reader5232,re:#467

Funny, I see him as Apollyon.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 13, 2007, 11:25:06 AM
Me,I am just like the Great Martin Karadagian & of course I´m a He since the midwife cried out "Macho!" holding me by my legs,head down and spanking my then, scant sss.The rest can speak for themselves.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 13, 2007, 12:54:10 PM
Speaking of Reynaldo Arenas, I've been thinking of suggesting to the new Movie Club forum that we discuss Before Night Falls (2000) with Javier Bardem playing Arenas.

I realize Boca will probably give me a thousand lashes with a wet noodle, but I'm also reading The Color of Summer now and like it very much. I got to know many young Cuban exiles at LSU and Before Night Falls is really up my alley so to speak.  :)

Johnny Depp could be my Lt. Victor any old day, baby...



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 13, 2007, 01:01:53 PM
Careful there maddie,

You are inviting all kinds of responses with that one.





Are you perhaps available tonight?”
Mrs. Bellairs asked. I yawned—looking
up at the ceiling and down at the floor.

“We're having a séance tonight,”
she said as this Tower of Babel came
tumbling out of her twisted mouth—
burying me alive in a ton of mystery
pulp fiction paperback bullshit. Could
I possibly survive the avalanche of
such a skanky oeuvre?

http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,112.msg30472.html#msg30472


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 13, 2007, 01:13:52 PM
[...] NNYHAV, Did you go by the same handle at the NY Times?  I haven't 'known' you long enough to set up a projection. [...]
Whew! Anyway, same handle, not chosen by me, in fact imposed by NYT pre-forum in automatic registration days (from work-assigned aacount). I was mostly around the forums mid-00 (mostly in Nabokov) to late-03 (shortly before Nabs & Borges [& Will] were exiled); revisited LatAm there more recently but more sporadiacally. (No worries, didn't recognize your handle either.)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 14, 2007, 12:10:10 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/415/984/41598488-ccf5-4d0e-b148-1fa8e1a9cc39)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 14, 2007, 02:02:22 AM
Actually, Depp was supposed to play Arenas who of course was even better looking than Bardem who was playing him.  Bardem's only likely comment to his brother overseas was, who is the chick with the fine ass?  "Your co-star, Johnny Depp, in drag."

I though Julian Schnable was awfully tacky, art for money's sake. But, by then, while they are looking around for the poems, there ain't any left,as somebody has said, "Why I couldn't give them away,when he was alive." Guess where they ended up? Go ahead, guess. Every stinking scrap, all portfolios, stashed away at Princeton in the Rare Books and Manuscripts, with which I communicated for five years before I ever laid eyes on the place. I stood there in curiosity, in front of a show-case, stunned. Realizing that I'd read every one of the classics in there but, suddenly I could feel the presence of an objectionable annoyance over my left shoulder, and when I slowly turned to take a look at who was so incessantly vibing me to desist from  impeding him, there was this six foot Celtic back-packer with red hair who was thumping annoyed that they had permitted women to invade his space.  Damned if it is Reunion Week.  Fine with me, I went into the hall and ran into Shir Tung's Faery Princess.  We exchanged names as they were interchangeable.

"Did you see the 'crib sheets'?, she asked.  Crib sheets,"oh,yes, very excellent."  Test question, surprised that I knew what they were.

Too late, anyway. The old man is dead. Came as a boy, to serve his master. Too late to thank him now.  Imagine growing up here and wondering who the heck these people are?  Took good care of the books though. Gave me every one, I ever asked for.

 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 14, 2007, 02:26:18 AM
The same thing happened to Ezra Pound in Italy...

He ended up in St. Elizabeth's for 13 years as a "fascist."

Oddly enough he wrote some of his best poetry during that time...

And ended up with the Bollingen Prize...

Poets seem to get in the middle of things don't they?



This has been nagging me all day for some reason, as to what this was about?

Do you know who put up the money for the Bollingen?

The Mellons out of Pittsburgh.  They started the Mellon bank; or, Mellon Financial.

I was pretty sure that I had something remaining, something larger but an old, very dirty small book on the Stone Classics translated by Ezra Pound.
Whoever the editor was in 1928 chose this for the back cover: "The study of Chinese culture has been a dominant concern in Ezra Pound's life and work."

Who would hae thunk it?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 15, 2007, 03:37:01 PM
http://dogmatika.com/dm/more.php?id=2994_0_1_0_M


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 15, 2007, 04:07:01 PM
"People say: they didn't really grab innocent college kids off the street, torture them, drug them and throw them naked from airplanes," he says. "But that's exactly what they did. The things you think I made up in this novel are what's straight out of the historical record, and what seems straight out of the historical record is what I made up."--Nathan Englander

http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,112.msg29964.html#msg29964


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 16, 2007, 06:31:39 AM
Reinaldo Arenas

hoffman

You asked me about Arenas' poetry. Not much has been published but here is a couple of links from Village Voice and Princeton:

“He was a considerable poet, too. Poetry, as in Borges's case, was his greatest love, and arguably his highest gift. His epic poem, El Central, records and re-creates the atrocities committed against the Cuban people through the ages—and does it more succinctly and more gracefully than the novels do. At least a dozen of his poems will one day take their place among the most beautiful written in Spanish. Many writers have laid a claim to immortality with fewer—and less original—works.”—Jaime Manrique, The Village Voice, December 6-12, 2000


http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0049,manrique,20375,1.html

Manuscripts Division
Department of Rare Books and Special Collections
Princeton University
1993, 2001

http://libweb.princeton.edu/libraries/firestone/rbsc/aids/arenas.html

The Reinaldo Arenas Papers consists of typescripts and manuscripts of novels and novellas, short stories, plays and screenplays, poetry, nonfiction, correspondence, and miscellaneous and printed material.

Drafts of the poetry collections El Central, Voluntad de vivir manifestándose, and Leprosorio



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 16, 2007, 06:48:30 AM
The Postmodern Poetic Narrative of Cuban Writer Reinaldo Arenas / La narrativa postmoderna del escritor cubano Reinaldo Arenas (1943–1990)

http://www.mellenpress.com/mellenpress.cfm?bookid=5849&pc=9

In Spanish.

This study focuses on the works of Cuban writer Reinaldo Arenas, one of the most prolific and controversial Latin American authors in the second half of the 20th century. Through the analysis of the five novels of the pentagony and other texts, this study follows the tragic journey of the antihero protagonist, from adolescence into adulthood, registering the correlation between his existential crisis and the narrative historical discourse. Despite the ostracism Reinaldo Arenas suffered for ten year, this study illumines how he established through his work a meditative dialogue with himself and the common man; this perspective formulates a permanent literary and philosophic reflection with thinkers and writers of his country and the West, as a basis for a rejection of the Cuban reality. The resultant interdisciplinary and postmodern dialogue constitutes one of the most significant and distinctive contributions of his work.

Reviews

"This book is a lucid and solidly documented study on Reinaldo Arenas, the most radical and subversive voice of the Cuban narrative of the last 45 years. The author has a keen knowledge of the prevalent approaches to the literary text in contemporary literary criticism, and this allows her to do an original reading of Arenas’ texts from a new perspective of the paradigms of Postmodernity, assigning his writings a permanent transgressor dimension, in opposition to the official totalitarian discourse that the Cuban political power sustains. This relevant vision adds a different view to the studies on Reinaldo Arenas, and makes possible to categorize the work of the Cuban narrator as Postmodern and authentically revolutionary ... This work is a relevant text in the bibliography on Reinaldo Arenas. It is the result of a profound and meditated study that portrays a creator who, with a transcending humanist and ethical vision, has left as a legacy a powerful sense of commitment in the struggle for affirming the will to be ourselves against the monsters of our time." - Professor Reinaldo Sánchez (retired), Florida State University



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on September 16, 2007, 12:55:46 PM
Pugetopolis....thank you for the links.  I'm putting mythology aside for a bit, and after I finish Faulkner and Ten Days that Shook the World, I am going to start on the novels of Arenas.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature Reading
Post by: S2B on September 19, 2007, 12:42:47 AM
Greetings from the equator...almost...1deg50min aka Singapore

I've landed, been offline for far too long, and here you've all been ruminating on and on for pages ! While offline, I decided to pick up my copy of Restrepo's book, Delirio, and am enjoying it immensly...I think you  have read it too MB3, no? (excellent avatar by the way :D)

The LAL lit here is very limited (Borders has a small section, very expensive, only a few classics worth reading, and I've already read them) which I had anticipated, so did bring a few titles along with me.

However, in searching the National Library I do see a few titles in translation, and that is better than nothing ! so in the next few days I'm heading in to pick up a copy of "Nada - a Novel" by Carmen Laforet...has anyone read this one?

Interesting that once again I'm promoting the female writers of the LAL authors...we've done Borges, Arenas, Puig, Cortazar, and more...what are you all reading (and I only read back to page 28 here to catch up, will read more when I am able) ?!



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on September 19, 2007, 03:32:35 PM
S2B, glad you are back.Yes, I read Delirio and it´s excellent.Did you read Restrepo´s "La novia oscura" with us at the NYT forum ?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 20, 2007, 10:13:51 AM
reader: Well....we Argentines all have a little Borges inside our battered dictatorialized minds. And this  is not exactly a self-compliment.

If you remember "me" since I was bocajuniors, then who "were"  you then?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 20, 2007, 10:15:10 AM
florianopolis: I don't see you as a Borges character, you are your own man.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 20, 2007, 10:27:16 AM
madupont: You "sound" like a lady with many years of having lived. Aix must be, I deduct for what I've seen, a pale image of its old self. Easter European accordionists play old French songs, the ussual burgeoisy being elegant beyond my Australianized Argentine understanding. And everythings is still yellow, the air, the walls, sandstone is yellow in Sydney, but in Aix is a screeming yellow. For some reason I half-like France, nothing wrong with the French, they're even lovelier in the provinces than they are in Paris (no pun intended), but there's something that doesn't completely click with me. Spain and the Spaniards with their arid soil and semi-arid demenoire and the family-like Italians are my people.

The Italians above all, they talk to you (if you can speak their lingo, especialy) as if you've been known to them from birth. You think anything within mutual respect's boundaries can be possible with them. The Spaniards not so much so. We Argentines might speak their language, sort of, but we are not the same, not even those Argentines who are descendants of Spaniards. That's because every Argentine no matther what the origines, is in fact a chrypto Italian.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 20, 2007, 10:30:16 AM
E CHE VIVA L'ITALIA!!!!, bogami, bome!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 20, 2007, 10:37:01 AM
martinbeck3: (sottovoce..) Martin, please, stop prancing around dressed as Martin Karadagian, yellow doesn't go with you and besides,you're enbarrasing all of us with a bit of a Argentine sence of elegance left in us. Remember the sky blue summer throwsers and the raw hide belt and the cherry colored mocassins,and the Chemisse Lacoste white teeshirt, and the cattle tally keyholder. Please  go back to being your old self!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on September 23, 2007, 06:18:10 PM
I'm off on holiday - Catalonia - see y'all in twa' weeks...



Have a good time,Beppo.

Thanks.

Had a good time.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 23, 2007, 06:34:32 PM
So how was the Hotel Catalonia? Such a lovely place ...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on September 23, 2007, 07:33:08 PM
So how was the Hotel Catalonia? Such a lovely place ...

Ah, the Hotel Catalonia was utterly delightful - already visted Barcelona previously so that's a must see but the lack of sunshine in the previous years was evident as we abandoned all hope of travel and joyfully laid our tired bones down on the sand below the one thing that had been missing in our lives - confident of 'sunny today and sunny tomorrow'. All thoughts of train journeys, reading maps, checking timetables, the Girona Kabbalist, the Catalunyan countryside were completely obliterated by the friendly heat of the sun. The clouds permeated our minds as we vanished listening to the lapping waves, watching the foaming caps*. We couldn't summon the energy to interrupt what became a much needed break. Eventually we managed to book a boat trip to Blanes - I'd been jokingly writing this before I caught your post. I'm back to work in 8 hours so I'd better retire for the evening.

The man that stepped off the boat in Blanes in 2007 was a character of the esteemed books forum Escape From Elba; his name was Beppo McFarfrae. By 2068, one of his grandsons, the Right Honourable George McFarfrae OBE was the respected member of the British Parliament for the sleepy suburb of Ashgrove: in his spare time of the evenings, like all good citizens, his contributions stretched to the not altogether tiresome charade of 'Poll Manager' for the online community portal Bloggervision.      

The last days of holidays are always tricky. Anything to remove the thought of returning to work.

* That's a couple of hundred pages of The Iliad for you.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 24, 2007, 12:39:46 AM
elportenito, re:#493

"the family-like Italians are my people."  Definitely, they do come with families (or, as with my friend Corso, without family; and so he created one slow but regularly and sure, until after several wives, he had some children, which was definitely a good thing). 

So far, most of my life has always had  a few Italians and their families.
Because my father had an unprofessional(but Italian) partner in medical practice, this led to having a sister replacement who might not have been there if my father hadn't delivered her by Caesarean birth. This very karmic relationship remained inevitably traumatic nevertheless.

Then there was the man who can be called my "godfather",from Palermo, whom I'd known since childhood. His name was Salvatore.  But he expected people to call him Sam.  Just the same, by the time that I was thirteen or so, I was  in a sort of mythical violent love with that Sicilian bandit, Salvatore Giuliano. I kept his picture carefully under glass on the desk where I did my homework for the first two years of high school. As you know, they shot him.  Sam, from Palermo, however was there for my father's memorial service.

I had an Italian landlady in New Orleans, known as Mrs. Peter, which is the custom there to call a married or widowed woman, as she was, by her husband's name, otherwise she was Mrs. Pecopo who had come as a girl  from Italy to be his bride. She told me how the "Black Hand" had killed him. Gregory Corso's mother had come from Italy like that, when people worked very hard and long trips back and forth, like Mr. Matta who lived in the east or Italian section of Princeton where the stone cutters had come to build the campus; Mr. Matta had worked as a stoker on a steamer come back and forth from Italy to America by  1927. On the other hand, Gregory's mother came soon after, and then went back, finito. She didn't like
the husband.           There were, however occasional Italians in Princeton who would tell you they were from the Argentine and said no more about it. 

Meanwhile, back home, at one period of time a strange thing had happened when Italians were displaced by an attempted urban renewal,from where they had settled in the market district at the turn of the century and well through Prohibition, and they relocated north of the main drag where the Polish had been there before them, which meant the local neighborhood church was St. Hedwig's. This led to "marriages"; the offspring of which were truly wily.

A true artist remained on the far south side, although he socialized quite a lot north of the line, Julio (or Giulio)Orlandini who had apprenticed with his father Matthew in a studio that would pass on to him where the family did ornate plaster work. Orlandini was an elegant gentleman of an artist, because of his customers, I suspect; and often told me that he had plans to revamp his part of town preserving some old buildings and designing "vistas", to create an artists' quarter which the town really needed if it was to politically survive, you know, something to balance the long term intransigeance. I understand, he did it; I haven't seen it as yet.

My favourite woman, by the name of Della,  was one who had to compete with her mother-in-law over her husband/the mil's son. Thus, she became a mystic with almost the most practical way of putting things. Her daughter is the sole Italian in my life now, a sculptor who usally spends some part of the year in Carrara, but I think she may be in Rome now (consoling a widower) since she had lived there at times, had an apartment near the so-called Protestant Cemetery where Corso is buried now next to Shelley; or exactly where he wanted to be.

My friend Nikki, however, as we agreed at the beginning, comes with three sisters, and with their progeny the family continues.  I miss Della sometimes, though;irreplaceable. It is impossible to miss Gregory Corso because now he is among the immortals, puta like Carravagio but immortal nonetheless.





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 24, 2007, 09:42:00 AM
madupont: Salvatore Giuliano, you mean "Turridu", my auntie's husband's sister fell pregnat to Turridu somewhere in the dry Sicialian hills, she then emigrated to Argentina where the baby was born, she called him Turrito, in memory of her beloved bandit who was a true turro, hence the name she gave to her son: Turrito.

Sicilians used to dress their kids in short pants and  "chalecos" (can't remember the English word for it, could it be waistcoats?) made of velvett, either black or dark blue velvett, a white long sleeved shirt perfectly starched and a little tie and the "charol" black shoes with their mirror-like shine. That was the perfect Sicilian cild of the times  of my childhood.  Those Sicialian kids are now my age, and they probably would no longer look the same in symilar attire. Tempus fugit, madupont.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 24, 2007, 09:47:46 AM
reader:

"I was Mick Sussman."

Don't do that again, Mac Corgy, you realy scared me, imagine, a person like Sussman talking just like that to a member of the iliterate working classes!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on September 24, 2007, 09:53:18 AM
madupont: I wouldn't lie to you, of all I say to you above only the Sicilian kid's attire part is true, the rest I've made it up.My aunty married just another Yugoslav's son, first generations tend to marry inside the tribe. I was more adventurous, in a country full of Latin women to pick and chose from (yes, it is sexist, but what the heck,stuff it!!!) being mono-genetic and mono-cultural would have been  like drinking water at a winery.

Long live extra-racial marriage (and sex)!!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on September 24, 2007, 10:52:21 AM
Ah, well, I thought you meant like John (and Aida) Turturro. (? no?)

(you know then, who I meant though?)

"I was Mick Sussman", gave me a shock too! Anything is possible.(I personally did not like how he paid no attention to the Cassirer family other than one; that was all he could say,"to me,there are no other Cassirers other than..." --short-sighted of him,when I wrote him a letter on the review he included on the Nadine Gordimer fiasco of having her biography written by someone who should have been thankful to get the job instead attempting to coyly sell her short).

"being mono-genetic and mono-cultural would have been  like drinking water at a winery."

"Long live extra-racial marriage (and sex)!!!!"   I tend to agree with that.

Ps. the guy that I was talking about "an elegant gentleman of an artist, because of his customers, I suspect; and often told me that he had plans to revamp his part of town preserving some old buildings and designing "vistas", to create an artists' quarter which the town really needed if it was to politically survive, you know, something to balance the long term intransigeance." was no doubt working for this one:
 
http://tinyurl.com/yvykds

As they have been building theatre spaces like mad


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 26, 2007, 10:34:25 PM
The Insufferable Gaucho by Roberto Bolaño
http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/features/2007/10/01/071001fi_fiction_bolano
[...]


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 27, 2007, 09:22:15 PM
nnyhave --

Your avatar; perfect for Borges, Bolano, Rulfo.  What author(s) would you pick for, say, Cornell?
Gil Sorrentino, Perec & Calvino,
Manganelli,
http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/italia/mangang2.htm
Monterroso,
http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/monterra/complete.htm
maybe David Markson ...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 28, 2007, 04:02:17 PM
The first question was hard. The second question indicates that the first answer was inadequate; it is also a harder question, and so much less likely to elicit a satisfactory response.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 28, 2007, 10:26:28 PM
OK. Common denominator: well-grounded witty formal pomo experimentation. (To me, Faulkner is different. I'd have to figure out what artist corresponds ... Picasso?)

Gilbert Sorrentino: http://jacketmagazine.com/29/index.shtml
specific recommendations:
http://www.centerforbookculture.org/dalkey/backlist/sorrentino_gilbert.html
(Mulligan Stew, Imaginative Qualities of Actual Things, Splendide-Hotel, Crystal Vision ...)
http://www.coffeehousepress.org/lunarfollies.asp

Georges Perec: http://www.centerforbookculture.org/context/no11/Motte.html
Life, A User's Manual is the standout -- but I've read and enjoyed everything by him.

Italo Calvino: http://www.italo-calvino.com/
I would recommend anything translated by William Weaver.

Giorgio Manganelli you'll enjoy (I think complete-review underrates All the Errors)

Monterroso I'm still looking for that one myself. (hey, he's the only LatAm author on this list, but Cornell seems more northern to me anyway)

Markson is a maybe because his more recent maxim-collage-approach is less to my taste, but I did enjoy Wittgenstein's Mistress.

I think I'd add Stanislaw Lem to the list: http://world.std.com/~mmcirvin/vitrifax.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on September 29, 2007, 12:58:53 PM
The difference between who and why is oy!

Well-grounded in its materials, opposing pomo (postmodern) abstraction. Experimental in not relying on established forms but playing off them; witty in that play (with words not on them). But that's just my take.

It would not have occurred to me to associate these authors with one another this way without Cornell as referent. It would not have occurred to me to associate the various objects in many of the boxes had Cornell not put them together.

(My tentative Faulkner/Picasso relation has to do with fragmented multiple perspective being integrated.)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on September 29, 2007, 01:07:57 PM
pomo (postmodern)

I read that three times as porno and associated it with Joyce's aesthetics



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 30, 2007, 02:28:26 AM
Pomo Picasso / Faulkner

(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/015/feb/015febe6-df81-43eb-b3b1-ec3a294dbb3f)


(My tentative Faulkner/Picasso relation has to do
with fragmented multiple perspective being integrated.)




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 30, 2007, 06:01:47 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/015/feb/015febe6-df81-43eb-b3b1-ec3a294dbb3f)

Postmodern Picasso Interview

—for nnyhav and reader

Picasso—“The first question was hard.”

Faulkner—“The second question indicates that the first answer was inadequate.”

Picasso: “It is also a harder question.”

Faulkner: “And so much less likely to elicit a satisfactory response.”

Picasso: “I forget what the first question was?”

Faulkner: “That’s the most difficult question of all.”

Picasso—“That third question is a hard question.”

Faulkner—“So much more likely to elicit a shitty answer.”

Picasso—“That’s a stinky question.”

Faulkner—“You know these postmodernists; they jest and camp.”

Picasso—“What is camp?”

Faulkner—“Surely you jest.”

Picasso—“That’s a hard question…”





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on September 30, 2007, 06:40:41 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/015/feb/015febe6-df81-43eb-b3b1-ec3a294dbb3f)

Postmodern Picasso Interview

—for nnyhav and reader

Picasso—“The first question was hard.”

Faulkner—“The second question indicates that the first answer was inadequate.”

Picasso: “It is also a harder question.”

Faulkner: “And so much less likely to elicit a satisfactory response.”

Picasso: “I forget what the first question was?”

Faulkner: “That’s the most difficult question of all.”

Picasso—“That third question is a hard question.”

Faulkner—“So much more likely to elicit a shitty answer.”

Picasso—“That’s a stinky question.”

Faulkner—“You know these postmodernists; they jest and camp.”

Picasso—“What is camp?”

Faulkner—“Surely you jest.”

Picasso—“That’s a hard question…”







Dear Reader,

Well, you must be busy busy busy with all those lovely links
nnyhav so graciously provided you for your exquistie digital
delectation. Hmm--hmmm-gooooood!!!!

There's this little thing about POMO that many overlook but
that's a "hard" question to answer. Which elicits and even
more difficult question. And that is...how "camp" is one's
sensibility?

Faulkner can be very camp and so can Picasso...

The campiest short story by Faulkner I've read is one
entitled "Afternoon of a Cow" with Faulkner assuming
the character of Ernest V. Trueblood "much in the
manner of a postmodernist writer such as Paul Auster."
(Fargnoli & Golay, William Faulkner A-Z, page 5).

Sincerely yours,
E. V. Trueblood, Esq.




So many questions...so little time.

POMO camp is quite the quite. Faulkner's
tongue-in-cheek "Afternoon of a Cow" is
rather tres "magic realist" in the portrayal
of Ernest V. Trueblood who is Borgesian
just as much as Borges is in his short
stories "The Other" and "August 25, 1983"
in which Borges creates a "Double" who
is himself: his dream self, future self,
dead self...

Faulkner is much more mudane and
campy...Miss Trueblood is the finiky
side of Faulkner...who always did feel
rather defensive about the, well,
"unmanliness" of being a writer
rather than being a plumber or
bull-fighter or rough trade...









Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on October 01, 2007, 12:22:38 AM

via book/daddy: Beckett for Babies
http://crookedhouse.typepad.com/crookedhouse/2007/09/post.html


See what I mean Reader?

Most so-called POMO promoters lack one thing: camp or even
a minor sense of humor. And without that how can postmodernism
appropriate modernsim...or play the "subversive" game with
modernist icons like Picasso and Faulkner...

Instead, we get the same old snarky one-liners and long lists
of cut & past links leading off into nowhere. There is no discussion
since there's nothing to discuss...how can there be any discussion
when somebody just throws out a link here or a link there etc

You see what I mean? Those that parrot POMO often poop out...
Intellectually that is.







Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on October 01, 2007, 05:55:29 AM
S2B, glad you are back.Yes, I read Delirio and it´s excellent.Did you read Restrepo´s "La novia oscura" with us at the NYT forum ?

Oh, Delirio...how interesting that the author presented both the nature and nurture argument for the character Agustina being bipolar, nature in that her family histories revealed all carried a rather manic way about them, and nurture in the relationships she had in the past...wonderful read ! and I didn't join in with "novia oscura" back when, though I may have to now

however, I've jumped the waters and I want to adopt Carmen Laforet into the LAL group...we managed it with Saramago, and now, Laforet deserves the same, with her incredilbe novel "Nada" I challenge those of you here who are curious to take a look...

I'll be back here more regularly once the transition to this new place at the equator is more complete...and bocajr though I won't make it as far south as Sydney at the end of the year, I will be visiting that land you've adopted, again...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 01, 2007, 09:58:38 AM
HI!LATAM LIT LURKERS AND OTHER FRIENDS:
here we have President Chavez singing "La Adelita" to the great writer Elena Poniatovsky. (soekkib,sorry wrong keys:spelling?Boca if you please):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCDVKb8_UJw


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 01, 2007, 10:11:41 AM
 we not only have Borges,Cortázar and all the rest ,we have LOS PUMAS

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on40wY7S3bc


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 01, 2007, 10:25:08 AM
BEPPO (Laird of the Hi! Lands) thy brave country comes next.I wish thee luck but I wish Argentina more luck.

..."y que gane el ma´mejor "

google trans...." an´let the better best win"


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 01, 2007, 11:33:37 AM
GO LOS PUMAS!!!!! (carajo!!!)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 01, 2007, 12:27:58 PM
bamo´Puma´CARAJO!!!!!!!!!!

I don´t see Mr.Beppo von Scotland rooting much.....ehemmm


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on October 01, 2007, 01:11:03 PM
I think he's rooting for Troy.

Obligatory link: http://www.savagejaw.co.uk/trojan/index.htm


Title: And the dark came swirling down across their eyes...
Post by: Beppo on October 01, 2007, 07:58:08 PM
bamo´Puma´CARAJO!!!!!!!!!!

I don´t see Mr.Beppo von Scotland rooting much.....ehemmm

Make sure there are plenty of tissues around that night because you guys are gonna cry so many tears the Seine will be in danger of bursting its banks. And make sure your supporters get out early that evening if they want a drink or two because the first tactic of the Scots support is to drink the city dry so that the opposition's vocal chords are diminished and unsatisfactorily lubricated. That operation swings into action about Wednesday. Then we'll drown you out in the stands and we'll dance better than you in the streets. In short the Pumas will be delivered back to reality and they'll wish they took up soccer or tiddlywinks. Any travelling support should make sure to pack a weepy DVD to take the edge off your soon to be glorious defeat. There'll be no room at the inn for second prizes so we'll be sure to leave you some vin blanc to drown your sorrows in one of the suburban bars. :D


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on October 02, 2007, 07:59:59 AM
what, no reading until the season is over ? and it seems that it is never over  ;)

MB3 it is Elena Poniatowska...and I read "Paseo de la Reforma" many years ago...what a dense piece of literature, and an excellent read !


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 02, 2007, 12:42:29 PM
BEPPO,next i´ll answer you.Just you wait.He who laughs last laughs better,like my granny Pepita used to say & she died at 99.

READER, it is very hard for me to concentrate as this Sunday Boca will be facing River (football) from 2 to 4pm and then the Pumas will be facing Scotland :-\

If I survive I will be here with some hot news.

EVERYBODY:is it *postmo* or *posmo*? I think i rather be posmo with a nook in my heart for everything camp. I think in my trade camp rules ,you should see the trade fairs ::).unbelievable!!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 02, 2007, 12:51:42 PM
NNYHAV, MASTER THE LINKMEISTER,
thank you for the Bolaño story.I´ll read it Sunday or maybe right now as no clients are coming in. Bolaño was considered last August at the "Congress Bogota 39" in Colombia as  a Master.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 02, 2007, 05:39:19 PM
NNYHAV,

I read the Bolaño story and the customers starting coming in.Believe it or not.
Maybe it was the FP wiping the entrance steps with white vinegar to scare out bad vibes...mysterious are the ways.... :-\

O.K. I finished it all the same and I think it´s very interesting since I lived a similar experience when Argentina melted down in 2001-2002 going to the estancia -ranch- of a friend. Everything looked unreal.It is a weird sensation.
Bolaño is correct there were like 10 different currencies and more than 3, I think there were 5 presidents in 1 week.There were and still are soup kitchens.The painters that arrive at the ranch know better than the gauchos (peones) how to fix a roof.No wonder. Gauchos are the laziest by any name."Cows where are you?" That was the same question I asked myself back then though the Aberdeen Angus I used to see were not replaced by rabbits but by sunflowers.Even the old cook appeared.she made delicious food with bits and pieces we were able to buy in B.A. before going to the ranch.supermarkets were raided by mobs back then.

I think the comparison of B.A. with Lyons and Prague is quite accurate.
"The Great Stepmothers" we as argies have had and according to statistics we will be getting at this month election ,our Presidenta Cristina Kirchner.God save my country!

The name Severo Infante ,that´s good,his childhood friend.*Serious Child".
there is a mistake when Bolaño -Chilean-says that Pereda was wearing bombachas, which is correct but never "chiripas" those haven´t been worn since the mid XIX cent.

Well, as usual thank you so much for your wonderful links.


Title: The spine of the Borges...
Post by: Beppo on October 02, 2007, 06:28:21 PM
martinbeck3

I thought I'd better try and upload some images so that when the inevitable celebrations take place for the Scots this weekend I'm well placed for posting you guys some images of the soiree - possibly even some moving images  :)

If it works this is my copy of The Total Library by Borges - it sure has seen a lot of usage over the years and now I wish I'd maybe gotten it in hardback.

http://picasaweb.google.com/mcg.paul/Refutations04

ps I'm following the example of whiskeypriest who I believe invented the 'one finger on the podium' guideline...

pps mb3 - just jesting with the rugby thing - you guys have actually got quite a good team so as you say - may the best team win!







Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 02, 2007, 07:32:51 PM
Your copy´s cover looked like something else until I saw it closely.

Hey! How dare you joke over rugby? There are some things that admit no joking  whatsoever !! >:( (clear-no-nonsense word,should always be used with at least one exclamation mark).   



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on October 02, 2007, 07:46:24 PM
Okay! Okay! When I spoke to some guys today about Argentina and Rugby they were surprised that Argentina played rugby. They quickly assumed their global status to be similiar to that of Romania. Then I told them that it's something like 6-0 to Argentina fixture-wise and they were flabbergasted.

We're getting away from literature.

The images I uploaded were in some way linked to Reader's post about imagining what people look and sound like - maybe we'll get to see what mb3 looks like one day!!  :)





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 03, 2007, 05:20:03 AM
martinbeck3: You're still coming to the forum dressed in that canary colored thing?, what have you done to the old attire, you've sent it to the cleaners?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 03, 2007, 05:29:58 AM
Martin: You should see them at the immigration forum, the same old faces, the same old xenophobics.

I'm tired, Martin, pass me the camomile tea. I'm starting to feel like San Martin in his exile. Would you like to impersonate Aguado and lend me some bucks? I need a new tv.How's things at the china shop?

you must certainly be out of the 2001 blues.

I'm geting old, I guess, I'm starting to feel for old oligarchs like you.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 03, 2007, 01:29:08 PM
BOQUITA,viejo choto y shoroso! donde está la garra para mandarme a cagar por oligarca! Mirá hemano me parece que te metiste con los discipulos de algun guru puto de esos que te hacen perder el alma.Cuidado! OOOOMMM y te cortan los huevos y te pones gordo y manso como gato capon.

google trans.c´mon Boca!!! 

let´s make the old juices flow:
 

A GOZA´AZUCA´!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONC6hoxLGN4


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 03, 2007, 02:06:23 PM
If your team dances this before the match on Sunday it will have the same effect of the Haka.Take like 10 bagpipes and I promise everyone will leave the field and you will win the match out of plain desertion

a gozá , azuca!!! (let´s rejoice,sugar!!!,not you *sugar* the music)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTSyO1v7tms

hey! why was your picture crossed out ,were you dancing the highland flip with no undies?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on October 03, 2007, 02:32:25 PM
Ha! That's another tactic you guys will struggle with - we're hoping to march all the way round the stadium twice in the pre-match warm-up.

As for the undies - if it's good enough for ogres..

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mcg.paul/ShrekReadingBorges

...hang on I've been told that's a smock, it's a smock! Still, at least we educate our Ogres!

 
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 03, 2007, 03:49:32 PM
Beppo, Shrek reads Borges! A smock is not Shrek but this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smock


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on October 04, 2007, 04:56:53 PM
Shrek likes to check these things out for himself:

http://picasaweb.google.com/mcg.paul/ShrekLooksUpSmock/photo#5117587808917960034


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 04, 2007, 05:08:51 PM
That great Beppo! How do you do it! Remember that I´m supposed to be working.So what you meant is that Shrek wore a smock! I thought it was a big t-shirt.
From Borges to Shrek.What´s the world coming to !


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on October 04, 2007, 06:09:10 PM
martin - just a bit of fun but if you want to try it out for yourself all you need is a digital camera. You then sign up for Picasa via Google which takes all of a minute and then upload the images from the camera. Once uploaded you just add them to a web album and link it from the page. 



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 05, 2007, 11:02:58 AM
Go the Pumas!!!

( I hope Saint Andrew knows a bit about rugby)

We know Ceferino , the Gauchito Gil and The Defunct Correa had been reading about it in the big field in the sky.

Personaly I can't see Ceferino being TOO enthusiastic about a bunch of ranch owners running behind a pigskin, but even so, he will understand the sircumstances.


Go The Pumas!!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 05, 2007, 11:05:09 AM
Martin: there's no quorum, mate. The place is deserted, you can even feel the tumbleweed bobbing across.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 05, 2007, 12:12:35 PM
BOCA, every day your prose gets better and better. It´s true.

I agree on your metaphor of the wind blowing but this happens because nobody is reading and posting and besides there is no fresh blood not having people dropping by like in the NYT.

I don´t think we all have to read the same book.Just read and comment on whatever LatAm lit. event crosses your mind.

Now both Diario Clarin and La Nacion come on Saturday with an excellent magazine on Cultura. It takes me all week to get through both.See if you can get it in Aussiland.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 05, 2007, 12:47:23 PM
BEPPO & BOCA, want to be furious.Just listen:

guess what an Aussie player said the rugby match between Argentina and Scotland was a lost of time as neither team knew how to play *real* rugby.

The Irish on the other hand are such great guys that once they recovered from having lost ,turn round and clapped at the few Argies that were in the stadium.
Gentlemen.

I wonder why USA doesn´t play rugby or *soccer*.Who invented that word?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 05, 2007, 12:56:27 PM
martinbeck3

I used to go to soccer matches at the Bavarian Club here in the US back in the Sixties. I guess they still chase each other, especially at this time of year for Oktoberfest.

Seems to me that I ran across an old rugby player just the other day but I can't recall where or his identity from the past, either some school or community team here in US,


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 05, 2007, 03:46:22 PM
MADDIE,the English where the ones that introduced football in my country and rugby,too.They were very influential in Arg.social history.Very nice people.I still have several Anglo-Arg. friends I meet now and then.BOCA,I bet, will have to say something about this.

There are many English schools like the one I went to.There, rugby is taught like THE sport for guys.Many years ago they had real english-from-england school teachers.Some had even been in England during WWII.

Football is played by any child from the moment they are born.On nursery rooms you can se the tiny t-shirt of the father´s favorite club hanging from babies´little beds (cribs?)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 06, 2007, 11:42:02 AM
I can not imagine going to an English School, martin, although I used to think that the private day-school, up the street with large playing fields, which my father and I would pass on the way to open fields where we could kick up pheasants at this time of year just for the exercise in the evening, must have been rather special.  The facilities changed hands apparently some time in recent years according to one of my sisters who keeps me informed when I'm wondering about some bit of news that I've heard that doesn't make sense.

However, during WW2, we were a German-American community, as we always were from the start, long before I was born and the culture was something of which you reminded me when you arrived in what I call the Melba's Place forum because you mentioned a number of things that are presently happening in Argentinian society with its special clusters of "cultural education" and clubiness distinctly unBritish; and I wanted to say to you at the moment, that wow, I've seen this all before, how this works, when there is a moment to take sides and support the "old order", so I was going to compare with you some phenomena seen, observed, and experienced in my childhood, and throughout my youth and subsequently at unexpected other moments of my life whenever I was in that environment.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 06, 2007, 01:35:18 PM
MADDIE, where on earth did you live when you used to kick pheasants on the butt for fun  ??? Did I get that right or did you kick *peasants*.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 06, 2007, 01:37:24 PM
martinbeck3:

"guess what an Aussie player said the rugby match between Argentina and Scotland was a lost of time as neither team knew how to play *real* rugby"


Those must have been Australia's last words before losing with England 12-10

The Irish are the Irish. sentimental as Italians.(only that contrary to the Italians,they CAN"T cook for Jack shaiza)


Martin: I wen't with La Patrona an Junior to see The War on Democracy few hours ago (3:31 AM here in Sydney...can you believe it?) the film is mostly for Gringos, there's nothing in it that we don't know, I would have wished John Pilger would have dedicated a bit o time to Argentina. Junior knew most of what was being said in the doco, but the archive images  were new to Junior.

As the old American song used to say: "teach your children well..." (who used to sing this song?...was it Boris Garfunkel & Hijo?....)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 06, 2007, 01:46:29 PM
madupont: Be;ieve me, if you went to an English school in Argentina you were a rancid olygarch, as Martincito was then. I bet he even had a MARKLYN electric train with bridges and working lights. I instead, madupont, had to make my own toys out of scrap metal. My led soldiers were made of the led I would steal from water pipes in the neighbourhood, my soccer ball was made from the skin of dead dog or cats killed by cars on the road. That's how bad things were, meanwhile, Martin was playing rugby with the children of English company managers and eating fruitcake and drinking Earl Gray tea. We at home had only mate cocido and bread. I could keep going, but I have to go to sleep. 3:44 AM on this side of the Pacific ocean.





2:30 pm in Buenos Aires, Martin, isn't  it time to start preparing fresh scones for the five o' clock tea?.....


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 06, 2007, 02:13:22 PM
BOCA,allow me to shed a tear for your sorry childhood.You sound like a tango.You are just missing "la vieja lavando ropa en el pileton".So what? In an hour the FP is going to put the scones in the oven.My Italian granny gave her the recipe.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 06, 2007, 04:51:15 PM
Are you sure those aren't "biscotti", martin?

"MADDIE, where on earth did you live when you used to kick pheasants on the butt for fun   Did I get that right or did you kick *peasants*."

You don't kick them "on the butt".  Kicking up pheasants is how you learn to begin hunting up game-birds. Sounds very English doesn't it?
But before the First World War that was the only way he and his mother and four brothers and two sister got to eat meat -- by hunting. It used to get me, when he took me to stay at my grandmother's, he would start the day and insist that I come along to cross pastures and keep an eye out for the bull so we could go fishing for breakfast; in his case nostalgia for this earlier phase of his life.  But I learned to like eating fish for breakfast now and then.

Kicking up pheasants though is a bit more like Mellors, the gamekeeper in D.H. Lawrence, Lady Chatterley's Lover, in which you don't kick peasants on the butt, you pinch them because they like it.   I hate to tell you Martin, but we were the peasants although we had our ups as well as our downs.  I could go on like this forever like that poet, what's his name? who hangs out pontificating,"we came from our Uplands and raced our horses on the Downs".



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 06, 2007, 04:56:45 PM
Ps, in order to do this, you have to do like el portenito 1 and know how to cast your own lead for ammunition; not for birds of course. My youngest brother still regularly did this when he came back from Europe where he had been in service until sometime in the early 1960s in Berlin.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on October 07, 2007, 05:26:14 PM
Boo-hoo. We're out.

Well done the Pumas!





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on October 07, 2007, 11:30:12 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/magazine/07wwln-q4-t.html?ref=magazine


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 08, 2007, 02:14:06 PM
I considered posting that last night as well but then lost track of the page while writing up a review somewhere between movies and television. Wondered very much what the response of posters at LAL would be as to how, who and when the trope "magic realism" occurred.

I happen to agree with lhoffman that Bunuel was at the time(and the place) of,The Discreet Charm of the Bourgouisie, reviewed as "surrealisme" and not magic realism. Could that be said of Le Chien Andaluz?



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 08, 2007, 03:59:05 PM
MADDIE,it´s a thin line that divides surrealism from magic-realism.Magic-realism is more baroque.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 08, 2007, 04:03:53 PM
BEPPO,you gave us a tough time.Anyhow,you are allowed to drown your sorrows in whiskey.At the club, where we were watching the match I had a Sotsman sitting on the bar´s bar beside me.Believe he had two whiskeys during the match and when the match finished I asked him ,"So where in Scotland were you born" and the guy andswered "No,I was born here but my father was Scottish!!! Thick blood.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on October 08, 2007, 06:35:41 PM
BEPPO,you gave us a tough time.Anyhow,you are allowed to drown your sorrows in whiskey.At the club, where we were watching the match I had a Sotsman sitting on the bar´s bar beside me.Believe he had two whiskeys during the match and when the match finished I asked him ,"So where in Scotland were you born" and the guy andswered "No,I was born here but my father was Scottish!!! Thick blood.

One thing I remember about the game was the faces of your guys during the national anthem. At first I thought it was a non-singing version of the anthem but then all the players broke into song right on cue and some were welling up with tears. Then when we sang it was all very civil—no real passion there which I think you need for rugby. The Pumas won that contest and apart from the last 10 minutes where we showed some flair I'd say the better team won.

     



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 08, 2007, 08:25:32 PM
el portenito1

My sister sent this to me as plot summary since she figured it never occurred to me to look it up but...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1029172/plotsummary

...after I looked it up, you may not remember because it may have been before you  arrived on Elba but I've been telling this to everybody here,the Guardian, anywhere they want to listen since I figured it out for myself that this is what the senior Bush was doing in office since circa 1980 something.  Actually, Operation Condor was the film (not the Robert Reford film Day of the Condor,etc.)from Sundance channel that blew me away which showed the senior Bush involvement since Ed Koch was mayor of Manhattan, and I put two and two together with the John Negroponte School of the Americas in Fort Benning, Georgia, his attention to detail in Central America, the blow-back in Chiapas when my friend got there with her SDS background(You know the one with the Austrian father and the Yugoslavian mother), and how Negroponte has since retired in hopes his name won't be blackened by history so that he is not remembered for all his good contributions to diplomacy . Puke! just like the anaconda recipe.

There is also the special tango that I choreographed to describe the junior Bush  visiting a charming hostess in S.A. one Sunday morning quite early while martin was still snoozing and missed all the action on camera. It was, how should I say, C'est a dire plus nonpareil !


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 08, 2007, 08:28:03 PM

BEPPO,you gave us a tough time.Anyhow,you are allowed to drown your sorrows in whiskey.At the club, where we were watching the match I had a Sotsman sitting on the bar´s bar beside me.Believe he had two whiskeys during the match and when the match finished I asked him ,"So where in Scotland were you born" and the guy andswered "No,I was born here but my father was Scottish!!! Thick blood.


Just kidding but say, that probably really was a Sotsman because no real Scotsman would say he was Scottish no matter how sotted he was. He would straight up say he was Scots.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 08, 2007, 08:58:21 PM

MADDIE,it´s a thin line that divides surrealism from magic-realism.Magic-realism is more baroque.


Baroque?   Bar-o-que...is that anything like kare-o-ke?  Sounds "broke" to me, as a matter of record, somewhat like the dripping watch dial in the Salvador Dali "nuclear mysticism" painting would bring Surrealist painting close in proximity to the Baroque period of Diego Velazquez?  But is it like this --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Diego_Vel%C3%A1zquez_015.jpg

or, more like this --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RokebyVenus.jpg

but, maybe this is the answer -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Velazquez-Meninas.jpg

where we learn that Dali even imitated Diego's moustache:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DiegoVelazquez_MeninasDetail.jpg







Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on October 10, 2007, 09:21:44 AM
;^})

Read Aira's How I Became a Nun Monday; loved it; blogged it. Now need to find An Episode in the Life of a Landscape Painter. In other news:

http://www.vqronline.org/articles/2007/fall/bolano-nazi-literature-americas/
in http://www.vqronline.org/south-america/

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/columnists/story/0,,2186554,00.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 10, 2007, 04:42:29 PM
BOCA & BEPPO:

Here is the HAKA NACIONAL ARGENTINO (for use by Los Pumas)

 http://youtube.com/watch?v=DDUP-RlGbw8


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 11, 2007, 01:54:48 PM
MADDIE, don´t let Chavez fool you. He´s a fascit.He has said that children should be taken away from their parents when they reach three years of age and return home once a month! He admits no different thinking.He´s a Peron/Fidel clone. You can never tell it´s the 80% that vote him.Voting in our countries is not what is in USA. It´s manipulated in the most dirty way.If that happens in Argentina now, I can´t even begin to imagine what it´s like in Venzuela.

Baroque? Like Baroque painting ,say ,how do you spell it? have you read Arnold Hauser? He gives the best description of how social reality influenced art and the chapter on baroque is excellent.

http://www.litweb.net/biography/336/Arnold_Hauser.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 11, 2007, 02:01:57 PM
THE SCOTSMAN, he said in Spanish,"Soy escoces" and I said,"You what?!"
"Si,soy escoces porque mi padre era escocés".No mention of his mother.

I hope I don´t have a South African sitting beside me next Sunday.That´s gonna be A Match! We only won twice against them.The first time in 1963 and some years ago,I think that it was in 198... something but we were not playing under the name of Los Pumas because of some political question.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 12, 2007, 06:47:54 PM
martinbeck3
Sr. Member
Posts: 330Re: Latin American Literature
« Reply #570 on: October 11, 2007, 01:54:48 PM » Quote
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"MADDIE, don´t let Chavez fool you. He´s a fascit.He has said that children should be taken away from their parents when they reach three years of age and return home once a month! He admits no different thinking.He´s a Peron/Fidel clone. You can never tell it´s the 80% that vote him.Voting in our countries is not what is in USA. It´s manipulated in the most dirty way."

So where did I say, "Chavez, what?"   As far as voting in anybody's countries is not what is in USA.  You have got to be kidding; it is manipulated in the most dirty way, here. Which is what accounts for voting in other countries not being what it ought to be.
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on October 13, 2007, 02:52:30 AM
 :o

7 November 2007 is the release of GGMs "Love in the time of cholera" ... where have I been that I haven't realized how soon this will be happening ??!! Where did the time go since the announcement of the movie project in 2004 ??!! And is it time to read it again before it is seen ?!

Any opinions out there ? What have you heard from GGM about the upcoming release ?

I left my copy back on the other side of the pacific, and haven't seen a copy in its original language since I've been here at 1deg15min...I'll have to head to a few bookstores just in case they'll be stocking a few copies because of the movie...sigh...

and for all you sports fans, I apologize for the literary interuption  ;)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 14, 2007, 10:09:12 AM
stubbie: I say DON'T you EVER see that film if you've read the book, as I did, many twenty years ago. It'll ruin your reading by destroying your own creation of the characters faces and the architecture of the place and landscapes.

A book should never be turned into a movie. Methinks.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 14, 2007, 10:11:07 AM
Go Los Pumas Carajo!!!!!!!........5:00 am, Sydney time, Los Pumas and the bloody Poms, face to face.



GO THE PUMAS CARAJOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 14, 2007, 10:15:01 AM
...Lady Di and La Difunta Correa will be barracking for Argentina.


La Difunta Correa because she was Argentine...and Lady Di because she's a very pissed off spectre of a princess.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on October 16, 2007, 05:45:25 AM
That was my strong opinion...I never saw a movie of a book I had read, and I won't be seeing the movie edition of GGM...however...

...my strong opinion is now just my opinion, the strength has gone out of my conviction that movies are literature's enemy, and what happened was Peter Jackson...I never wanted to see LOTR, and yet, after re-reading all the Tolkien books with my eldest when the movies were released, I was then convinced to see them with him.  What they can do these days with special effects, with LOTR, really blew my mind.

Now of course, Love in the time of cholera is a different type of story, and I do have faces that fit some of the characters (why is it I see Anthony Quinn in my mind ? hmmmm and maybe my own features too on some characters) otherwise I am happy to have half-formed images of faces in my mind as I read most books.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 17, 2007, 10:04:08 AM
What on earth is LOTR?

p.s.I´m only today getting over the Pumas match. Now we go Saturday against France,*les enfants de la patrie*,we´re going to kick them to hell and back once more.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 17, 2007, 10:17:40 AM
What I hate most of this World Rugby Cup is the sswhole these frenchies have placed playing the trumpet with the most idiotic music all through the match.Is there no good soul will shoot the fkr?

TRIBUTE TO THE PUMAS GREATEST RUGBY TEAM EVER:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8p668rROxc

WHAT EVERYBODY HAS TO UNDESTAND:

THESE GUYS WERE NEVER PROFESSIONAL.THEY PLAYED RUGBY SINCE THEY WERE 4 .

they became pro only when they joined the European clubs.
they trained for the love of the game at night after work or school all through cold and rainy winter nites
they finished their weekly training close to 12 pm and went back home on a bicycle or 8 in a car
most never got there because they were not good enough
many never got there because they were hurt forever and couldn´t walk any more
scrums are killers specially when you´re not trained as a pro is for lack of time -did you notice their necks?-

GLORIA A LOS PUMAS




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on October 18, 2007, 10:42:39 AM
The question MB3 is "What in middle earth is LOTR?"  ;D  with the names Tolkien and Jackson,  I thought that acronym would be easily deciphered...I can tell you're brain damaged by all the rugby action lately  ;) and I hope you pick up an interesting book soon   ;D  ;D  ;D


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 20, 2007, 01:04:12 PM
martinbeck3:  The best Third in the world.

You know how much an Aussie rugby player earns a year?...$ 700,000 Au. dollars a year. (or some $ 1,600,000 pesos a year) and even so they came back home early.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 20, 2007, 06:20:40 PM
LOTR,I saw the movie.A glorified Roadrunner.who is Jackson? GRANDE PUMAS CORAZON ARGENTINO!

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyK4uVmVJso&mode=related&search=

I BET YOU´RE GONNA LOVE THIS ONE BOQUITA!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 20, 2007, 06:27:30 PM
Boca here is the real Haka Nacional I bet now you cry:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=DDUP-RlGbw8


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on October 21, 2007, 09:57:52 PM
Peter Jackson : NZ filmmaker of LOTR, and King Kong, and I hear he's doing a movie version of the Halo series of games, and he's collaborating on another game for the Halo universe too...which will please all the Halo fans ? unless it was Halo3 ? don't know, and don't want to have to...

it seems I have access to more European lit here at the equator than LAL, so I'm waiting for a copy of "Lady in Blue" by Javier Sierra...and wish I could get a copy of "Sor Juana's Second Dream" by Gaspar de Alba, who is I suppose a Chicana author...

isn't rugby over yet ??!! I heard that South Africa won...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 22, 2007, 10:16:57 AM
S2B, yes, it´s over we came in third.Now, I´m recovering my senses -and my voice- slowly. Next Sunday we vote President. This country is great fun.

I read Javier Marias.He´s the son of Spanish philosopher Julian Marias.I read "Corazón tan blanco".He is supposed to be The New Great Writer.I liked the novel .It´s O.K. but not that much.
 
LATAM.LIT READERS:
Wouldn´t it be a good idea if this forum was to be named Hispanoamerican Lit. Like I said before? What do you think? ahould l suggest Admin?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 23, 2007, 08:03:28 AM
martinbeck3: Have a read, this is from CLARINS blog on The Pumas:

""Fui compañero y amigo de Pato Albacete durante muchos años en el colegio Manuel Belgrano y todavia no puedo creer que halla llegado tan alto, me enorgullece mucho y lo felicito a Pato y al equipo.

Publicado por: Juan F Cuello"


SEEEE?.......Pato Albacete and I went to the same High School?...see you later. Got to watch a docco on Bolivia on SBS tvas we speack.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 23, 2007, 12:23:08 PM
See Boquita what I mean about the olygarchs of today.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 23, 2007, 02:16:12 PM

Peter Jackson : NZ filmmaker of LOTR, and King Kong, and I hear he's doing a movie version of the Halo series of games, and he's collaborating on another game for the Halo universe too...which will please all the Halo fans ? unless it was Halo3 ? don't know, and don't want to have to...

it seems I have access to more European lit here at the equator than LAL, so I'm waiting for a copy of "Lady in Blue" by Javier Sierra...and wish I could get a copy of "Sor Juana's Second Dream" by Gaspar de Alba, who is I suppose a Chicana author...

isn't rugby over yet ??!! I heard that South Africa won...



Why not read Octavio Paz Anthology, on Sor Juana, from Harvard Univ. Press; it has been mentioned that this is also in paperback.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 23, 2007, 04:56:14 PM
I read the book a while ago.It´s no easy go but very interesting.That was a surprising woman.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 24, 2007, 09:19:50 AM
martinbeck3:  The real mackoy.


Ka Mate
(All Black Haka)
Traditional
(modified by Te Rauparaha 1810) This haka is performed by
the New Zealand All Blacks
before rugby test matches.




Kapa o Pango

with full explaination

 
 

 Leader
               KA MATE!                  KA MATE!
               We're going to die!           We're going to die!   
               We were at war                                   
Chorus
               KA ORA,                   KA ORA!
               We're going to live!          We're going to live!
               But now there is peace.                             
Leader
               KA MATE!                  KA MATE!
               We're going to die!           We're going to die!   
               We thought we were all going to die
Chorus
               KA ORA,                   KA ORA!
               We're going to live!          We're going to live!
               but now we are safe
All together
               TENEI  TE  TANGATA        PU'RU-HURU
               This is the man,              so hairy
               because our leader,            so strong and masculine,
               NA'A  NEI  TIKI           MAI  WHAKA-WHITI  TE ...
               who fetched,                  and made shine the
               has unified us and brought back the sunny days of
           ... RA!  UPANE!         KA  UPANE!
               sun!    Together!             All together ... !
              peace.    We are all working in harmony, side by side,
               A UPANE!        KA UPANE!
               Together!                     All together ... !
               moving in unison like the hairs on our chief's legs

               WHITI TE RA!
               To sun shines!
                    to prolong these sunny days of peace.
                HI !                      Yeah!


Pronunciation
Maori pronunciation is basically one syllable per vowel , ("Ka ma te", "ta nga ta") with the vowels having a Latin rather than English sound. The 'wh' is aspirated almost like an 'f' (f is good enough for most people). And the final Hi! is pronounced 'Hee,' not 'High.'

PU'RU-HURU is the All Blacks' pronounciation of puhuruhuru
NA'A is the All Blacks' pronounciation of Nana.

 


The ancient Ka Mate haka
The All Black haka is an ancient haka, says Patricia Burns (1983). It was modified in about 1810 by the warrior chief Te Rauparaha of the Ngati Toa tribe when he added to the end of a longer haka.

Margaret Orbell (1967) pointed out that in the ancient usage of the Ka mate haka "te tangata puhuruhuru" (the hairy person) symbolised unified strength. And that "Whiti te ra" (the shining sun) symbolised light, life, peace.

She noted that the original version of the haka had "Upane, ka upane" (together, all together). When men are united, all together, they became the Hairy One, powerful enough to bring about the triumph of life over death, that is, to transform war into peace. Consequently this haka was performed to affirm the making of the peace process between tribes. "Ka mate, ka ora" conveys the feelings of the reunited groups: "We thought we were all going to die, but now we are safe."

E H Schnackenburg of Kawhaia (1948) says that this haka formerly celebrated the triumph of Maui in capturing the sun, an allegorical story telling of how the sunny days (times of peace) were too short and the nights (periods of war) were too long. So as the sun came up one morning, Maui lassoed it and slowed it down to make longer days, the message being that a strong, brave, ingenious leader is needed to ensure peaceful times.

Similarly, the purpose of rugby football tours, in their pre-commercial days, was to affirm the bonds of peace and unity between isolated regions and countries.

Te Raupauraha's parody of the old haka
The meaning of this old haka was completely inverted by the Ngati Toa warlord Te Rauparaha after he escaped retribution for slaughtering and eating a group of innocent travellers.

Te Rauparaha is said to have been a boy when Captain James Cook was in New Zealand. Although not of the highest rank, he rose to the leadership of Ngati Toa because of his aggressiveness and his skill in battle.

At a feast given by a friendly Waikato tribe, his young wife Marore was accidently served up a meal without any chiefly garnishes. So Te Rauparaha organised a war party and killed about 150 people of another Waikato village to get human flesh to feed to his wife.

Not surprisingly this got a violent reaction from other Waikato tribes. They besieged Te Rauparaha, and by 1822 he was forced to take his people away from Kawhia on a migration which was to eventually bring them to Kapiti Island.

One day Te Rauparaha and his gang had come up the Whanganui river and were crossing the volcanic plateau heading for Kawhia. They detoured to Lake Rotoaira to get some fish as food for the journey. On the way there, his group spotted a number of Ngati Te Hou travellers, and one of his party asked, "Why go to Rotoaira when food is here?" They followed this suggestion, and attacked, killed and ate some, but not all, of the Ngati Te Hou travellers.

The survivors carried the news back to their tribe, who mounted a war party to avenge this abomination. They were in hot pursuit when Te Rauparaha reached the village of a tribe friendly to him.


He hid in a pit for storing kumara (sweet potato) and waited in the dark for his pursuers to find him.

He heard sounds above and thought he was done for when the top of the pit was opened up and sunshine flooded in. He was blinded and struggled to see those about to slay him (I'm going to die!), when his sight cleared and he instead saw the hairy legs of the local chief who had hid him (I'm going to live!). Te Rauparaha climbed a ladder up out of the pit and later performed his parody of the old haka, changing the old phrase "Upane, ka upane" (together, all together) to "Hupane, kaupane" (up the ladder).

Margaret Orbell (2001) has commented on these different interpretations of Ka Mate:

"About Ka Mate: all the different interpretations of this have acquired a life of their own, to such an extent that they could be regarded (even those I don't agree with) as having their own validity. My book Maori Poetry gives my own reading of this haka, including the fact that I think the Te Rauparaha story is a later development. I think this is true of the Maui one also.

But it is part of the power of Ka Mate that it does attract such other interpretations, and personally I wouldn't now try to change anyone's mind on the subject -- I'd just accept the plurality of readings it receives."

 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 24, 2007, 09:21:25 AM
martinbeck3:

Te Rauparaha's life

Te Rauparaha was the son of Werawera, of Ngati Toa, and his second wife, Parekowhatu (Parekohatu), of Ngati Raukawa. He is said to have been a boy when Captain James Cook was in New Zealand. Although not of the highest rank, he rose to the leadership of Ngati Toa because of his aggressiveness and his skill in battle.
At a feast given by a friendly Waikato tribe, his young wife Marore was accidently served up a meal without any chiefly garnishes. So Te Rauparaha organised a war party and killed about 150 people of another Waikato village to get human flesh to feed to his wife. This got a violent reaction from other Waikato tribes. They besieged Te Rauparaha, and by 1822 he was forced to take his people away from Kawhia on a migration which was to eventually bring them to Kapiti Island.

  In 1827, European ships started trading at Kapiti. Te Rauparaha's power over his allied tribes rested on his control of the trade in arms and ammunition.
Kapiti Island, 1844 
Using this new technology, he spread terror throughout the Cook Strait region. Captives were taken to Kapiti to scrape flax to be traded for muskets, powder and tobacco.

He also wanted to control the supply of greenstone, and the South Island, where greenstone was to be found, was open to conquest as the tribes there had not yet acquired guns. In about 1827 Te Rauparaha took a war party across Cook Strait, where several Rangitane pa were taken.

Te Rauparaha resisted European settlement in those areas he claimed he had not sold. A major clash came in 1843 when Te Rauparaha and Te Rangihaeata prevented the survey of the Wairau plains. In the crisis that followed Te Rauparaha stayed on the defensive. By avoiding war with the settlers, he contributed greatly to its peaceful resolution.

On 16 May 1846 there were again rumours of an imminent assault on Wellington. The new governor, George Grey, decided that Te Rauparaha could not be trusted and arrested him. The Ngati Toa people never fully understood the reason for the warrior chief's arrest.

In January 1848 Grey finally released Te Rauparaha, after 18 months of imprisonment. At the time of his release, Te Rauparaha did not know that the sale of Ngati Toa land at Wairau had been a condition of his being freed.

Grey had acquired the land which Te Rauparaha had never sold. It was Te Rauparaha's son Tamihana, who had signed over the Wairau to Grey, having been informed that only the sale of the Wairau would ensure Te Rauparaha's freedom. Te Rauparaha died at Otaki on 27th November 1849.

Summarised from the Dictionary of NZ Biography, and from Burns. FULL DNZB ARTICLE


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 24, 2007, 03:49:31 PM
Gee! and they say New Zealand is so peaceful.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 26, 2007, 08:34:27 AM
martinbeck3: Once They Were Warriors.

See if you can get  New Zealand's  film under that title. It speaks about the problems in today's Maori society, the violence,the alcohol and its ussual consequence, violence against women.  But if you want to take it easy then try to get the film lenght cartoon Footrot Flats, about life in a New Zealand country town, a man and his dog, called Dog and Horse, the cat.

http://www.oneil.com.au/footrot/index.html

http://www.fortunecity.com/oasis/canyon/429/reisenz/theend.jpg


New Zealand IS a peacefull place, except for when things like the sinking of Green Peace's ship at the hands of French secret agents by means of a bomb happen, and cause the death of a Spanish fotographer, as it happened some twenty years ago. The French agents were rewarded by a holiday on one of France's islands in the Pacific.

When it comes to their country and sovreignty ,Kiwis show more dignity than Aussies, that's a fact, especialy now, when Australia has become an echo of the EEUU and Israel's  foreign policies.


Go Helen Clark!!!!...we need more looks like this., kind of:



"What the FK is he saying...?!!!"

http://wmmbb.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/clarke-and-bush.jpg


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 26, 2007, 08:39:39 AM
Once Were Warriors, the movie:

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00004RCKI.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.laurahird.com/frankspage.html&h=475&w=332&sz=52&hl=en&start=36&um=1&tbnid=KP2nPnY8yQQz-M:&tbnh=129&tbnw=90&prev=/images%3Fq%3Donce%2Bthey%2Bwere%2Bwarriors%26start%3D18%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 26, 2007, 11:02:57 AM
I saw Once They Were Warriors.It is an excellent film.it reminded me of life in our villas msieria or Brazilian favelas.Was The Piano Lesson also a N.Zealand film?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on October 26, 2007, 03:54:28 PM
Been reading an Alejo Carpentier novella recent days - El Acoso - The Chase.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on October 26, 2007, 04:01:49 PM
mb3 - third place in the rugger was excellent - your guys were the walking wounded versus the 'boks.

BTW - I noticed last week that the father of Argentinian soccer is a Scotsman - did you know this? Is there a statue of this man in BA somewhere? Should I form a petition?  :)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 27, 2007, 02:26:33 PM
el portenito,re:#596

"New Zealand IS a peacefull place, except for when things like the sinking of Green Peace's ship at the hands of French secret agents by means of a bomb happen, and cause the death of a Spanish fotographer, as it happened some twenty years ago. The French agents were rewarded by a holiday on one of France's islands in the Pacific."

News of this came up again just before this last Spring election in France which Segolene Royal lost to Sarko.  It was her brother who sunk the Green Peace ship, and when we first heard of this,I think it was in the FirstPost, UK, an online daily, Segolene Royal never batted an eyelash when people called to confirm "the rumor". It's old hat to her. I think her brother's name was/is Patric Royal ; and the Green Peace ship was in the Marianas to protest French nuclear testing as I believe this was where they first began their own atom bomb tests. What's the status in northern Australia on that presently?



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 27, 2007, 02:47:53 PM
el portenito, continued:

corrected and more details on my post's information

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10404445

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1500930&objectid=10412861

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1500930&objectid=10404936


But, gee, I was merely preparing to post to you about former Maori cannibalism since that topic was worth a few posts in American History in regard to whether Amerindians, First Nation, or Native Americans did, when,where, and why.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on October 28, 2007, 07:48:37 AM
martinbeck3: Amazing!!!...I came up with  dated shaiza about the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior, and just few days after all this news related directly or indirectly to the matter, and that policemen who arrested the Frenchies killing his wife.

So the brother of La Royal was involved in the Frenchie's acts of patriotic pyrothechnics, eh?.

The world is a hankerchief, We should complain to the laundry. (el mundo es un panuelito)

But put yourselves in the Frenchies shoes. Imagine you just want to have some fun exploding atomic bombs in the atmosphere because you're French and as such are allowed to be a selfish bastard (une egotiste) and this stupid ship painted in gay colors comes along and disturbs your fun. Wouldn't you be allowed to kill and maim in order to keep having your fun in someone else's seas?. Ofcourse you would.
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on October 29, 2007, 09:34:18 AM
el portenito,

"Wouldn't you be allowed to kill and maim in order to keep having your fun[profit] in someone else's seas?."  We were discussing this a couple of days ago in Movies about--Michael Clayton--which had just opened, without specifically mentioning anything that had to do with the plot, so as not to spoil it for those who had not yet seen it.

But basically, the film has to do with Corporatism which is very much on the minds of everyone who has to have any dealings with the US which has influenced the rest of the world into participating with this phenomenon internationally. 

As a way of doing business, the US version began basically as an interaction, influencing paternalistically with rewards and punishments (see, Jack Perkins"Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"), in the immediate hemisphere,which meant rewarding corruption almost entirely in Latin-American countries (with the inclusion of an earlier Empirialist enterprise in the Spanish-speaking Philippines. Consider how it didn't take a century for this to become globe-spanningly  face to face with itself in the mirror, with a hop from the Philippines to the Malay peninsula, and there you are among Muslim guerillas who are not adverse to thinking graciously of Osama bin Laden.)

I think that is why early Bush administration doctrinaires over at the old nytimes forums who were still stuck on the nuances of fascism in Europe, like what kind of braid to put on their uniform for their Halloween costume this week, I mean that is why they really still read the books which made them look like intellectuals, but what I'm getting at is they immediately fell into line, with these childlike desires, since they never grew up, and you constantly heard them bring up the word "Empire" like there was a direct line from Caesar to Mussolini to Bush?     

Uh,uh, it is something more like Eisenhower spoke of as soon as he got himself off the battlefield and out of Europe, when he warned of military-industrial complex it was as if he knew a secret to tell us that the civilians didn't know; but he couldn't put it any other way until he had his chance to serve in the White House too.  Now, it is obvious because we allow uneducated figure-heads of corporations to serve in office immediately at the White House. That was their reward for obedience to the corporate interest.

This has little to do with the electorate who take their physical exercise to express their excess of abusive energy in the little forums, who think it is all about one party versus one party. At least, when it comes to North Americans, it's always good guys versus bad guys, what used to be cowboys and indians is now black hats versus white hats on film remakes about desperados.

Which is why I have to hand it to George Clooney, in so far as picking roles to play, or plowing the money earned back into the production of an expose that provides you all the details from soup to nuts of how the interaction of a corporate enterprise is put together on an international scale. Or, the inadvertent cooperation between a dissolution of a dictatorship by a democracy(call that green hats by khaki hats, if you like) to disguise the interactiveness which can continue by some other name as long as you run-up a false-flag on the pole with a line of red herring, after you are done with the smoke-screen(if you pardon the rhetorical jive of another era used to express what becomes the international piracy that pertains to this one. Like sell bad-shit to China because you assumed they were slope-heads with lower intelligence, and then, while they are busy banking and playing the market to undercut you, act really surprised that they are subtly poisoning  you bit by bit.

Prior to last April, when I received the suggestion of participating in a forum, I perceived it as a nice gesture to keep me occupied but soon glanced the method had more to it than what a guest could read on an average day before signing in as a member here.  A strong reason for taking a good look at the Socialist party ticket in a French election, while there seemed to be no particular program than "conserving" the proletarian gains of the post-war era/of the last fifty years, was the reality of  how one prevents a liaison directly between heads of state of two governments both of which are fronting far right programs. There were no options. But I quickly discovered, by analysing who were the talking heads who propogandized for the right wing candidate by providing their intellectual support that they were the same kind of
heads we had in the media here in the US as academic intellectuals out of the Chicago School of neo-cons. Whereas in Europe, you can't risk them feeling insulted, which one never would have dared do in the post-WW2  US, on religio-racist-ideological grounds, the playing field has changed once again and would you believe it in the US the booby traps are set with trip wires of sexual reference such as sexual identification politics?  Or, defamation of class-status by "aspersions"?

Of course, since the uninitiated mostly fall for the line spun by the spinners, I doubt that I can just hang out here anymore than I did "there" without a cordon of ACLU card-carrying-members.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 29, 2007, 10:51:30 AM
This is a beautiful Borges poem I discovered googling for Granada.It is written on entering the city:(sorry I didn´t find the translation,so I bet we´ll be onl a few enjoying this perfection)


Alhambra
de Jorge Luis Borges



Grata la voz del agua
a quien abrumaron negras arenas,
grato a la mano cóncava
el mármol circular de la columna,
gratos los finos laberintos del agua
entre los limoneros,
grata la música del zéjel,
grato el amor y grata la plegaria
dirigida a un Dios que está solo,
grato el jazmín.
Vano el alfanje
ante las largas lanzas de los muchos,
vano ser el mejor.
Grato sentir o presentir, rey doliente,
que tus dulzuras son adioses,
que te será negada la llave,
que la cruz del infiel borrará la luna,
que la tarde que miras es la última.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 29, 2007, 11:04:00 AM
BEPPO, I didn´t know it was a Scotsman who created football in Argentina.Of course you should let your embassy here build a statue of the man,he deserves that and more.Just let them know you Scot people don´t like the English very much.

Thank you for your congrats. on out third place in the Rugby Cup.To us it was like a first place.

On Friday I went to a dinner to collect money for the people of the Tigre delta and a shirt of our team signed by all the rugbiers was auctioned. Somebody paid $-pesos- 1800 ,some U$A 600 not much over there but here a it´s a lot.

Later I´ll post on "El acoso",right now I have to work.

FRIENDS AND LUKERS ALIKE:

Just getting over our presidential  election. Right now Our Queen Cristina K. is entering the Olivos Villa WALKING ON ROSE PETALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!  live proof of magic-realism.Lord have mercy on my country.


Title: Evita syndrome grips Argentina
Post by: pugetopolis on October 29, 2007, 11:20:20 AM
(http://www.writers.net/user/home/photos/21687.jpg)

Evita syndrome grips Argentina

But the decision is in line with Argentina's long tradition of pushing wives of powerful leaders into positions of power, starting with Evita Peron, the wife of the movement's founder, Juan Domingo Peron, in the 1940s.

In the 1970s, General Peron's last wife, Maria Estela Peron, known as Isabelita, stood as his running mate. She succeeded him as president when he died in July 1974 but was overthrown in a military coup in March 1976.

Many analysts prefer to compare the Kirchners to Bill and Hillary Clinton. Mrs Kirchner, 54, is a lawyer with her own political base, having served in the lower house of Congress before being elected to the Senate.

Argentina's power couple have been playing coy about their political intentions for more than a year. At one point, Mr Kirchner, 57, teasingly said the Peronist candidate would be "a penguin", mentioning both the masculine and feminine forms of the word, which is used as a nickname for people from his native region of Patagonia.


http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/evita-syndrome-grips-argentina/2007/07/03/1183351210241.html




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on October 30, 2007, 01:19:39 PM
QUEEN CRISTINA didn´t win in any of the large cities:B.A.,Rosario,Mar del Plata,Bahia Blanca,Codoba,and my neighborhood:San Isidro and next door neighbor:V.López.

The New Queen reigns supreme in all the rest of the country among the uneducated and poor.Typical of the political line that runs from Dictador Rosas (mid.XIX cent.) to our days including Peron: they pay so as to be voted not only in money but with houses and food donations.It is in the poorest parts where Cristina got most votes.

That is why the peronistas want a population that is poor,uneducated etc.because that is the only way they can keep theri power. 



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on November 02, 2007, 07:46:47 AM
martinbeck3: You know what you are?...you are an antinepotite. You hate nepotists. You pretend to be fair, but deep inside those who opose nepotism lays the hatred for all peronists.

Let my (peronist) people go!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on November 02, 2007, 07:57:27 AM
martinbeck3: Yes, The Piano was (is) a New Zealand film, I saw it some time ago, I must confess that it didn't leave much in me, to the point that I don't recall much about it, like that Aussie film with the floating glass church, i think Kate Blanchete was in it when she was still only "famous" in Oz. What the heck that film was about?.....why would or should I care about some nut building a glass church in the Australian bush in the nineteenth century?....


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on November 02, 2007, 08:54:05 AM
BEPPO, I didn´t know it was a Scotsman who created football in Argentina.Of course you should let your embassy here build a statue of the man,he deserves that and more.

Martin, not a lot is known about the guy. There's some info on the web but just the basics.

Just let them know you Scot people don´t like the English very much

But martin, we don't like anybody very much, especially after the summer we have just experienced. No wonder we have all our underground moon festivals over here. Good heavens, where would we be without that!

Later I´ll post on "El acoso"

It's the first Carpentier I've read. I have noticed recently though (new catalogue online) that the big important library in this here city has quite a number of Latin American authors on its 'reference only' shelves. Which is good. I used to enjoy reading in the library but usually too busy/lazy to head there these days. Sabato, Bolano, Arenas, Carpentier, Paz, Fuentes etc..all there. And of course lots of Borges - stuff that's out of print.

Have a good day!

 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 08, 2007, 12:28:59 PM
BEPPO, back into battle! Well,the Lady won and life goes on.

The LatAm. lit. authors your library has are the best.We´ve read them all -but just a book here and there- over in the NYT forum. I´ll be delighted to go over any of them when you read them

http://www2.ups.edu/faculty/velez/FL380/Carnotas.htm

I re-read El Acoso and found some interesting notes on the margins of my copy,conclusions we had come to in the old forum.

FROM THE OLD NOTES:
Listening to Beethoven´s Eroica while reading this story would be a good idea.
Luis Buñuel tried to film "El acoso" he was frustrated in his attempt.The novel´s cinematographic structure seems to have seduced him.He wanted it to last as
long as Beethoven´s symphony.Francisco Rabal was to play in it (circa1956).

MORE FROM BACK THEN:
"El Acoso is a syntheis of Carpentier´s experiments with the notion of time,his theories applied to the literary narration.The equilibrium between the diverse occurrences that continue accumlating like a dramatic charge around the characters is the result of a tension that Carpentier mantains until the last instant of the story.Everything in this drama of the terrorist persued by his persecutors seems to depend upon the diabolical will that lets the minutes fall like grains of sand in an hourglass and with each the fateful execution approaches...The ethical substratum of the drama is ,as in the allegories of Kafka,gathered in the in the atmosphere or the tale,intense like a presentiment or like an echo of something that still must be said.Nothing has a meaning in itself -not even int he classic perfection of the detail-but rather in the final and total concatenation where the secret significances are defines,where time,detained for an instant,or better 46 minutes the length of Beethoven´s "Eroica" symphony ,resumes its circular progress inciting us to begin again to read the story,assimilating ourselves to that lapse of time which reflects the pace of life ."

p.s. what was the name of the Scotsman that introduced football in Argentina?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 08, 2007, 12:49:17 PM
martinbeck3

Do you want yesterday's UK scores to go with that?

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?news=sportspages&issueID=364


http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/sportsdaily


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 08, 2007, 04:04:53 PM
MADDIE, thank you for the links.I see the Pumas coach Loffredo is joining the Tigers.That is what is sad about our players -football,rugby and basketball- as they excel they are bought by foreign clubs and then we are left with little to face world cups but a group of guys that come back to play for their country from all parts of the world and have little chance of playing together,which is essential.

I wonder why USA doesn´t have a rugby and soccer history since you were colonized by English.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 08, 2007, 05:28:22 PM
martin,

It were the Germans who arrived deciding to kick the ball around in short pants. Football as seen today became what it is after Paul Robeson played on the Rutgers team in northern New Jersey instead of in his home town of Princeton.

The German version of rough and tumble soccer often socked anyone who got in the way, or elbowed him out of the way or he might inadvertently get knee-d,  as they worked the ball in their progress, falling to the ground, rising, you know the drill.

Eugene O'Neill made it up to Paul Robeson because O'Neill, like F.Scott Fitzgerald,  did not manage to stay at school, Princeton remained a hard drinking school to this day, by casting him in his plays about merchant seamen and the Caribbean, such as The Emperor Jones, for the Provincetown Playhouse, and Robeson moved from the theatre to the movies and then back to the theatre because of the quality of his voice for which he was world renowned.

Rugby is something I have not yet differentiated in my mind but it does sound more English than soccer.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on November 08, 2007, 05:38:00 PM
Isn't Rugby sort of air-borne croquet?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on November 08, 2007, 06:26:51 PM
mb3 - thanks - will read more in detail tomorrow - I like the idea of listening to Beethoven's Eroica in unison with the text. I'll struggle to concentrate for the next few days as I'm heading to New York City again in two weeks time - just booked tonight - bullied into it by my better half - it may take a day or two to sink in as I've wanted to visit NYC since I was in shorts. Never been to America. Last time we were supposed to go I tripped and bust my wrist up pretty badly, preventing us from going, so I've to be on my best behaviour for the next couple of weeks. I'm quite excited!

nnyhav - I'm visiting your (extended neighbour) hood!

I know you've been reading Walter Benjamin's The Arcades Project - a friend dropped by to visit the other day and dropped off Benjamin's Crossing by Jay Parini - I've read about half of it so far midst reading Peeling the Onion, which I've also been reading, both give differing perspectives on that period of time. I wondered if you'd read it?

ps. Any tips on getting the best out of NYC on a short trip? 

madupont - Since I read elsewhere that the work of Günter Grass is considered to be of the type European Magic Realism, I suppose it wouldn't be out of place to just say, here in Latamlit that I'm almost finished the memoir Peeling the Onion and enjoying it immensely. Especially the parts that deal with Grass's war experiences. I'm beyond that part now and into Grass as stonemason and I feel it's dipped slightly, but should be finished soon. I have The Tin Drum but haven't read.

edit: martin - link to the soccer info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Argentina


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on November 09, 2007, 12:24:25 AM
Martin, I'm reading about the night of the generals in Argentine in 1976 ("Shock Doctrine," Naomi Klein).  Thank the gods you and your family have survived to this day.  It wasn't long after that that Bocajunior migrated to Australia, wasn't it?  He missed the bodies washing up on Plata's shores, or perhaps he saw some and decided to sit this one out in another country?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on November 09, 2007, 12:27:41 AM
nnyhav - I'm visiting your (extended neighbour) hood!

I know you've been reading Walter Benjamin's The Arcades Project - a friend dropped by to visit the other day and dropped off Benjamin's Crossing by Jay Parini - I've read about half of it so far midst reading Peeling the Onion, which I've also been reading, both give differing perspectives on that period of time. I wondered if you'd read it?

ps. Any tips on getting the best out of NYC on a short trip? 
I just finished with The Arcades Project and am segueing into Gershom Scholem's Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism (which is dedicated to Benjamin). Don't know Parini; I've read a lot of Grass, though not this nor The Tin Drum.

Actually, you'll more likely be in my immediate vicinity, times2 -- if there's time ... but the one thing not to miss in NYC is the Metropolitan Museum of Art. (Excepting yours truly, of course.)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 09, 2007, 04:20:59 AM

Isn't Rugby sort of air-borne croquet?


NOPE! I'm try to get the picture from mind-transference from your mind to mine and I kind of see this polo mallet swinging in the air with the horse dashing into a cricket match such as thanatopsy was more than a little annoyed about down on the Main Line because they had a race policy at the club down in Haverford.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 09, 2007, 04:36:50 AM
Yes, Beppo, you will wish that you could live at the MET, in which ever your favourite hall. I haven't even begun in the Greek collection. With that in mind, I realized as the fires began to be brought under control in California --that the Getty has one of those rare Greek,Etruscan,Roman collections; and I began to wonder if they have an "evacuation plan" for collections of that kind when housed in a fire area? 

My niece replied that they had just been over there with guests, and that it was a good question; the preservation of these things from "natural disaster" considering the hit Baghdad took that decreased "world culture".

Of course that was then (2003) and now is now; so, as of last Saturday or was it Sunday(?), I realized that when you remove that many of the local citizenry as well with the invasive tactics of somebody who was a cheerleader at Harvard and/or Yale, does this not qualify as the beginning of the end of civilization?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 09, 2007, 04:50:05 AM
Question for the Leadership of the Blooming Lamp post circle, who wears a Yellow abbreviated jump suit and is either known as marvin beck the third or is it martinbeck3?

Was it you, or how many have read: Love in the Time of Cholera? Was there a discussion? I just read an opener tonight and, as is oft said around here,"it blew me away".   They are selling paperback copies of it for $14.95 ( I suppose because the film is due to open. Which is a more likely reason than Oprah appointing it her club read; because they usually just pop for the hard-cover edition and have lunch).

From what I read, which was meant to pull me into going all the way, I can't call this  "magic realism" because this sounds to me too much like real life by a writer with an extreme sensibility to everything that is happening; albeit a few whackos here and there, for the setting, as they are obviously more attuned to reality than most of the roster of candidates around Melba's place on any given day.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 09, 2007, 03:40:43 PM
So much I want to post to you and so little time.Right now I have just finished work -5.30 pm.- and I have to get out ASAP to my tae-bo class so I don´t get to look to much like my avatar -the Great Martin Karadagian-.Then on my way back I shalt be happily met by the FP and her offsprings that have camped here every other weekend since Sebastian got divorced.They jump onto the PC and put on their own DVD´s on MY tv with such films as Shrek3 or "100 %Wrestling"where we get to see the same matches over and over,the more they see it the more they like it. The FP has retired from cooking so it´s either Sebastian cooking -he´s more into quantity than quality- or me -Blooming Lampost forbid-so I bet it´s pizza or *empanadas* delivery. 

BEPPO, be careful in yonder NYC.As soon as I have time I will post my experience in that city when we visited it for the first time.Awesome city.Nowhere but there can such things happen.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on November 11, 2007, 08:15:45 PM
nnyhav - I'm visiting your (extended neighbour) hood!

I know you've been reading Walter Benjamin's The Arcades Project - a friend dropped by to visit the other day and dropped off Benjamin's Crossing by Jay Parini - I've read about half of it so far midst reading Peeling the Onion, which I've also been reading, both give differing perspectives on that period of time. I wondered if you'd read it?

ps. Any tips on getting the best out of NYC on a short trip? 
I just finished with The Arcades Project and am segueing into Gershom Scholem's Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism (which is dedicated to Benjamin). Don't know Parini; I've read a lot of Grass, though not this nor The Tin Drum.

Actually, you'll more likely be in my immediate vicinity, times2 -- if there's time ... but the one thing not to miss in NYC is the Metropolitan Museum of Art. (Excepting yours truly, of course.)

nnyhav - it would be surreal to catch up with you in New York. We're there from the 24th to the 28th - if you're in town and have the time we could arrange it, along with the spinning of a coin to see who would need to be wearing the obligatory cravat/carnation!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on November 14, 2007, 08:59:26 AM
martinbeck3 (aka Karadagian): Salu la barra!. Tomorrow I'll post an article on New York, published yesterday in The Sydney Morning Herald. NY seems to be a victim to developers gentryfying everyhing that was once typical on behalf of yuppyness (if that vintage word is still in use in the USA)




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 14, 2007, 10:16:07 AM
Yes,sir

They did it to my home-town in the Midwest until there is really no reason to go back -- and visit what?  I'm the kind of person who enjoys flash-back memories, elportenito1, and without the flash as you walk down the street -- there's no memory.

The first time that I saw what they  did, to Times Square in Manhattan, I freaked.

But you are quite right, more and more disappears because of "Progress"--not on your life; it is really called "real estate speculation".

One day over in American History, we were bemoaning what happed to the train stations, Grand Central Station and Penn Station. Thanatopsy and I were recalling how we used to be able to ride the L (the elevated)but then Yesterday, I learn that Norman Mailer when he ran for Mayor wanted to build an L that ran around the entire city because he thought that one cross-town bus wasn't enough and there ought to have been three at least.

Somebody warn Beppo! Never get on a cross-town bus. You will want to get out and walk but they won't let you get out of the bus.

One really bad day, I received an e-mail advertisement from Caswell-Massey, the oldest pharmacist in the US, since colonial times, and there was a shot that they kept of Columbus Circle as it originally looked; and suddenly I realized that I would never see it again as I had in my floundering to make my way along all the subway lines when I was young. It's no longer there although I am enthralled with the idea that they made a huge cultural complex  out of what used to be Lincoln Center in the vicinity; which destroyed Columbus Circle as it was.

It used to be simple to visit the campus of Columbia University as they then destroyed a percentage of Spanish Harlem to achieve expansion.

Places to see:The Angel of the Waters.

http://www.centralparknyc.org/site/PageServer?pagename=virtualpark_southend_bethesdaterrace

When you are at the Metropolitan, you are next to the northern part of the park and 17 blocks south is this famous spot.

Do not pass up Washington Square and when there try to remember it as a place where people lived around it as their own recreational park in another century.(Sort of like Gramercy Park,today)    Gee, we have to find the web-site of Songlines, for Beppo, so he will know what he is looking at around the entire city! You will probably need a guided tour of Greenwhich Village, when you get to Washington Square.

I personally like the Financial District, Wall Street for walking on Sundays, all is quiet then,when you come down from 8th. Street in the Village, west of the Square.

It seems to me we posted a lot of things about the area and several others in American History forum since we began in here. Bob is somewhat an expert of the history of that area,New York,East Coast,all of the history of the US for that matter.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 14, 2007, 10:26:04 AM
Beppo

http://www.nysonglines.com/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on November 19, 2007, 07:48:38 AM
martinbeck3: As promised...on 11-14-07


New York, New York - too bad, you've missed it

Date: November 14 2007


Ian Munro

There is fear in this city once again, but it is not the uneasiness wrought by the mean streets of 20 and 30 years ago.

Certainly there are still dangerous and edgy places here. Only last week a teenage boy who happened to live in a "bad" building was shot dead for no apparent reason. Brooklyn residents relate hearing gunshots frequently over summer. Sometimes someone is shot, sometimes it passes without sirens piercing the night.

Pick up the Times any day of the week and there they are, in the briefs columns, accounts of fatal stabbings and gun play, too routine to register much more than a few lines.

But this is a different kind of fear. Visitors and residents alike remark on how New York actually feels safe now, and reflect on how much it is has transformed itself. So far has it come, in fact, that now there are residents who believe it has become too sanitised, too homogeneous and far too expensive for any lasting diversity to be maintained.

It is possible to regret the passing of a neighbourhood in which the streets were an open and perilous drug market, through which residents walked homeward with a key protruding from a fist in case there was no option but to fight. We know this because it is among the recollections in a book warning of the "suburbanisation of New York".

Seven months after its release the fears the book raises are still echoing through mainstream media. Indeed, New York may well be the world's greatest city, but it may also be the world's most self-regarding city too, if it can edge out Paris on that score. Walk into a Barnes & Noble bookstore in Manhattan and there is a virtual sub-section of pictorial and coffee table books on the city itself. Not only tourist guides, but numerous titles recording its history, its place in cinema, its changes.

Those who write grimly of the suburbanisation of the place voice fears that its old edginess, the stuff that drove earlier generations of residents away, is now a kind of real estate commodity used to lure the wealthy back. It is as though the sense of past dangers affords a frisson that acts as marketing bait.

Look at street fairs, they say. Once they were a means for neighbourhoods to support themselves, and each 'hood fair was different, presenting foods and goods that reflected their inhabitants' ethnicity.

Now, and this is true, every street fair seems the same. Even Seventh Avenue has a street fair, right outside Carnegie Hall, and it is the same as all the others. The same gyro and taco stands, the same stalls selling juice, and rugs and manchester. Yes, manchester.

And the stores: Starbucks, Rite Aid, Duane Reade, Barnes & Noble, all pushing into Manhattan, driving out neighbourhood stores that have brought diversity and uniqueness.

There is, this argument runs, a loss of sense of place as rising rents bleed the place of its culture. The present exploits the past as it obliterates it. Thus the "bargain district" is still promoted as such even as it becomes a place where there are no bargains and haggling is unknown.

The latest example of this phenomenon, although it is a New Jersey thing, is the destruction of the building that featured as Satriale's pork butchery in the TV drama The Sopranos. Replacing it is an apartment block, nine units, in a project called The Soprano.

New apartment complexes, luxury condos are deplored by even the guides on tourist buses who lament the soaring rents, the families pushed to the outer boroughs.

So the message seems to be that if you have not been to New York, too bad, you missed it.

Except that it is a Manhattan-centric view of the city. No-one is going to argue that the Bronx and Brooklyn have lost their edge.

Nor has the Bowery entirely lost its famous bums. And the Lower East Side still has Katz's delicatessen, famous for its World War II plea to "send a salami to your boy in the Army", and for Meg Ryan's most remembered scene in When Harry Met Sally. When the developers move in there, then the place will be lost.

The city's final saving grace will be the one it has always had: migrants. While more than 1 million residents moved out in the 1990s, they were replaced by new arrivals.

In any case, it is not that everyone agrees with this notion of sanitised city stripped of its charms. One blogger responding to the book said: "Grit and character? Overrated … I'll take 2007 and any perceived loss of character any time over 1985, when the streets were dirty, unsafe and perfumed with that inimitable mix of urine and rotting food."



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on November 19, 2007, 07:49:57 AM
martinbeck3: Fortunately Villa Caraza keeps being true to itself.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on November 19, 2007, 10:04:11 PM
More Nazi Literature in America:
http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/features/2007/11/26/071126fi_fiction_bolano


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on November 20, 2007, 05:55:19 AM
nnyhav: I don't know if Rousselot's literature was or is nazi, I know that one Juan Carlos Rousselot , a tv "personality",was intimately linked to the fascists cohorts of general Jorge Rafael Videla.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 22, 2007, 11:11:22 AM
NNYHAV, I thought it was a true story by the 2nd. page I realized it was not.I think the poet who committed suicide is real and she is Alejandra Pizarnik.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on November 24, 2007, 01:06:32 AM
Hye Martin and other old friends,
Macd told me about this exile place...Great!! congratulations.
Do you still discuss books?
What about discussing Saramago's Memorial de Convento? (Baltazar & Blimunda - english version)
Or " O ano da morte de Ricardo Reis"?
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on November 24, 2007, 07:36:29 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/feb/b9f/febb9f5c-0358-4efe-b334-e859d7d4329d)

http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,112.msg49153.html#msg49153

martin, nnyhav, elportentio   :) :) :)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on November 24, 2007, 10:17:33 PM
(http://www.newyorker.com/images/2007/11/26/p233/071126_r16830_p233.jpg)

Álvaro Rousselot’s Journey

Although it may not warrant an eminent place in the annals of literary mystery, the curious case of Álvaro Rousselot is worthy of attention, for a few minutes, at least.

Keen readers of mid-twentieth-century Argentine literature, who do exist, albeit not in great numbers, will no doubt remember that Rousselot was a skilled narrator and an abundant inventor of plots, a sound stylist in literary Spanish, but not averse to the use of Buenos Aires slang, or lunfardo, when a story required it (as was often the case), though never in a mannered way, at least in our opinion—that is, the opinion of his faithful readers.


http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/features/2007/11/26/071126fi_fiction_bolano




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on November 25, 2007, 08:28:12 PM
Miriam :) good to see you here...I recently finished "Delirio" by Restrepo, though have been somewhat distracted since then, and looking to see what kind of LAL I can find here in Singapore (not very many titles available, and all seem to be translated) I have also read "The Lady in Blue" (La Dama Azul) by Sierra

I've been looking at my copy of GGM's "amor...colera" and wondering if I should read it again in protest of the movie ;) Madupont, have you continued reading the copy you found ?

Beppo and MB3...my copy of 'El Acoso' is back at homebase, though I did read a few by Carpentier, eg "Cathedral" and "Pasos" and did we read "Kingdom" ?! can't remember...

anyone else thinking about the Fuentes title "Silla del Aguila" ? the English translation was recently published...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on November 26, 2007, 09:54:44 AM
Hello S2B,
So good to meet old friends.
The film "time in cholera times"... Garcia Marques said once he will never let anyone make a film after his novels...unfortuantly he was persuaded by  ::) some people from a media we all adore, movies, but in my short and long experience, few novels became great movies.
How can any "human being" represent the characters in "one hundred years..." or "love in cholera"?
Saramago was also tempted and "Blindness" will be soon on the screens, in English...another stupidity and both G.M and S, do not need not the fame nor the money.
I suggested once to discuss Funtes "Terra Nostra". a great book.
Let's see what people will say here.
And you? travelling all the time? great!!!
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 26, 2007, 02:44:49 PM
S2B,re: #636

"I've been looking at my copy of GGM's "amor...colera" and wondering if I should read it again in protest of the movie  Madupont, have you continued reading the copy you found ?"   I didn't find a copy, I was notified of it by Random House.

On the other hand,  I can't see the movie either, as I had predicted there is a form of face-off battle over who is showing the bigger,better, or badder Bardem this last week in the U.S.

It would be a kind of "who makes the most Box Office" war.  I wouldn't blame that too much on GGM.  It is the nature of contracts in the book business when an agent dickers with the publisher for a two book contract but which seems less likely with Marquez, there is also the matter of film rights, other reproduction such as tv rights, foreign distribution in these media as well as the book (as you are no doubt aware of the screen writers' strike in the U.S.; as well as a stage hand union strike in Manhattan, whereas my friend in Paris complains mostly of leaping on to the metro from the subway platform much earlier in the morning and cars being extremely packed when he is on his way to work  from his family home to the south of the city, because of the transportation strike. A strike against Sarkozy?).

Meanwhile, as a result of the death of Norman Mailer, I decided to go for it and read, as promised for discussion, his last book,  The Castle in the Forest,  which I had put off since nearly a year ago.  Same publisher, by the way, as the book by Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

It is now in the Everyman's Library of Contemporary Classics (Love in the Time of Cholera) which means another royalty payment once it was obtained from Knopf publishers which is a division of Random House.

I was sent one page in English and realized that the writing is far superior to anything else generally available in English.

As far as the film having been made, I found it unquestionably interesting that even when the locale had been preplanned with a production company, another more enticing offer was made in a personal phone call from the president of Columbia,S.A. who insisted it has to be made in Marquez' homeland.

The cinematographer is Affonso Henriques Beato, a Brazilian, whose most recent previous work was, The Queen, written by Peter Morgan. That sold me, as if Javier Bardem and a shooting location in Columbia was insufficient.

I will very likely buy the book, which is why I asked who had read or posted previously, as I can not manage to get the on-line e-book on the recommended Random House links to e-tailers which is how I would prefer to read it; they could not deliver 477 pages of Norman Mailer to me as planned. At my age, I read far more effortlessly by computer than from the page.  I also know that eventually, I will have to write by dictation.




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 26, 2007, 02:47:52 PM
mringel,re:#637

"both G.M and S, do not need not the fame nor the money."

Marquez would undoubtably have a place for it  "    ", considering his social-consciousness.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on November 27, 2007, 02:15:18 AM
Hye Madupont,
"considering the social consciousness"...
Unfortuantly I do not have any information about the acts G.M is taking in order to help poor people.
G.M generation, and Saramago, Amado etc. are included, were influenced by the ideas of communism.
Well, even my generation, and I am much younger than these authors, comunism and its ideas seem to be the best one can think of in order to make justice in this world.
Life went on and we all know what happened in Russia, China etc. or even in the idea of the Kibboutz, which was based on social ideas.
G.M, S. and others still say they belong to the comunist party, but as Saramago says: I am a hormonal comunist, it is in my hormones...
And we can understand communism is in his mind, but I am not sure that it affects his deeds.
So, we are not going to discuss any book?
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 27, 2007, 03:50:17 AM
mringel,

Such a deal, for the holidays, the publisher sent an advertisement that I should be allowed 15% off "any book". So we will see how this works.  If I can locate the GG Marquez title amidst the disclaimers, I shall consider myself lucky.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on November 27, 2007, 04:05:52 AM
mringel did I read that correctly, "Blindness" is coming to the theater ?
???  >:(  :-\  :'(
you will always be the voice of saramago to me  ;)

and I will not ever see either GGMs nor S's movie version...however...though movies seem to be the nemesis of literature (note a previous short discussion here of LOTR and it's ground breaking work which I will say has muted my antipathy to all film versions) I do know that *if* any movie were to entice a movie goer to pick up a different title of GGMs or Saramago (like B&B, which we discussed long ago) then I must admit that they can serve a purpose, those movies...

where are you discussing Mailer madupont, did I miss something here in LAL ?!

'Terra Nostra' is a book I had in my hands for a short while, however, this two year move to Singapore has meant that I left homebase with very little in the way of literature and had to leave that one unfinished (in fact, had to return it to the library); the prices here are daunting, and the LAL selection is abysmal (I would probably have better luck in Australia in December during our visit)...

if we decide on a book (and why not Cholera if madupont finds a copy s/he wishes to read) then we can discuss !


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 27, 2007, 09:52:38 AM
HI MRINGEL! Good to see you found your *sendero* to Elba.Welcome!

HI ALL!

I read this year "Ensayo sobre la ceguera"-Bindness- but I´ll love to read it again together with you all now that Mringel is back with us. ¡UN LUJO!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 27, 2007, 09:59:56 AM
BOCA AND PUGET:

I bet the part of the poem you ,Boca, will utterly rejoice in is:

We want happy workers—
We don’t want Union Poetry
None of that Solidarity stuff…

Boquita, I see thee "derramando lagrimas de profunda emocion".(spilling teard of the deepest emotion).


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on November 27, 2007, 11:53:46 AM
Hye Martin and all friends,
Thank you. I feel like Alice entering the wilderness...
I read Love in Cholera 3 or 4 times. It is a great book and each rereading is a great pleasure.
So beautiful is this story, so fantastic, so well written, so romantic. All the good reasons for me to read it again.
As to Saramago's "Blindness". I actually read it again now (for the 10th time), as I am invited to talk about this romance in front of teachers, as this romance is "entering" the national exam in literature....
I must admit that I am amazed by the fact that although I read this book so many times, some important phrases escaped my view...well, blindness is the title of the book.
Blindness is a book we can discuss for a long time...so much to say, so much to "hear", so much to "see".
I'd love to have a discussion upon this book.
By the way, Martin, my son came back from the 6 months "big trip" to south america. He loved Buenos Aires, the town that his father was born in. He loved it all. of course he did all the treks in Peru, Chile, Argentina, Brasil, Colomboia and Bolibia.
I decided I want to make a shorter trip, but I hope I'll be able to see some of the great views he saw.
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 27, 2007, 04:10:15 PM
About B.A.:

No nos une el amor
sino el espanto
será por eso
que la quiero tanto


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on November 27, 2007, 04:45:56 PM
Met up with Beppo last night. We've each procured a copy of Carpentier's The Lost Steps. Left him & sig other safe & sound at times2 ...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 27, 2007, 07:44:58 PM
NNYHAV, so the Laird of the Hi!-Lands is in NYC! I can see him wearing a kilt down 5th. Av.What did you two guys do? Visited any kool watering whole like a troo member of the K/SF or just go around with a Carpentier under your arm.Wish I´d been there.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 27, 2007, 07:47:07 PM
MRINGEL, the fact that I prefer Blindness doesn´t mean I won´t be game for reading El amor en los tiempos del colera.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on November 27, 2007, 10:05:29 PM
I just checked at the library and I can get a copy of Blindness here (English translation) because I left my copy at homebase...the book is incredible, I read it before we read B&B for discussion through the NYT forum, and I would happily read it again and discuss it here...I also have a copy of Cholera to re-read in case there are more interested in that discussion...

though the holiday season is nearly upon us...so I will be traveling downunder for a few weeks, and not online very much at all.  This trip will not find me anywhere near the boca/portenito haunt, unless he has moved north ?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on November 28, 2007, 12:24:07 AM
Martin,
If I was asked which are the three books I'd like to read and reread it will be:
Blindness
Love in Cholera
One hundred years of solitude

So, for me it will be a great pleasure to discuss one of these books.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on November 28, 2007, 04:05:29 AM
what about "pasos perdidos" that beppo and nnyhav have procured ?

we could do : Blindness, Cholera, Lost Steps

at least that is my vote...now I must go see if I can find a copy of Carpentier here...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on November 28, 2007, 01:06:48 PM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/feb/b9f/febb9f5c-0358-4efe-b334-e859d7d4329d)

Big Daddy


BOCA AND PUGET:

I bet the part of the poem you, Boca, will utterly rejoice in is:

We want happy workers—
We don’t want Union Poetry
None of that Solidarity stuff…

Boquita, I see thee "derramando lagrimas de profunda emocion".(spilling teard of the deepest emotion).


Martin and Boca—

My “Big Daddy” satire posing Borges as Big Brother was simply a tongue-in-cheek look at Peron and Borges—and how writers whether they like it or not get “embedded” in politico-literary issues like Borges, Lorca, Orwell, Mailer, Roth, Gibson, Philip K. Dick. Even poets like Auden, Ginsberg and Philip Larkin get sucked into it…       

I can’t speak for Argentina or Latin American Literature—but it seems to me that “globalization” and the outsourcing of American jobs and industry will continue regardless of elections and increasing dystopian ennui. The same with immigration politics for Tyson Inc. and other large American corporations dependent on Hispanic, Somali and other work-forces being integrated into America’s globalized economy.

What will this globalized LMR (Labor/Management Relationship) be like? Other than George Orwell’s 1984—what does Dystopian Literature have to say about such matters? Does magic realism and the Cuban writer Alejo Carpentier "lo real maravilloso" (roughly "marvelous reality") have anything to do with Big Brother and Globalization?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 28, 2007, 01:40:56 PM
  Re: Fiction
« Reply #1422


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 28, 2007, 02:54:49 PM
I´d vote for Los Pasos Perdidos that I have never read.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on November 28, 2007, 04:24:04 PM
I think Ill have a problem to get this book here... :(


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on November 28, 2007, 04:29:19 PM
O.K
I saw that 5 books of Carpentier were translated here
I'll look at the library on the title in Spanish.
I hope I'll find Passos Perdidos.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on November 28, 2007, 04:30:58 PM
(http://www.longitudebooks.com/images/book_large/AMZ18.jpg)

I vote for Carpentier's The Lost Steps.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on November 28, 2007, 08:08:52 PM
I'll go get a copy from the library of "Lost Steps" and get started next week, my copy of that Carpentier title is, as usual, back at homebase...I do hope that mringel can find one too ! Please say you are able...and then we can move on to "Blindness" or "Cholera" or ? next...



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on November 28, 2007, 08:11:04 PM
I just had to post this somewhere, and thought you might all find it thought provoking...I am an optimist though, and do hope that this is just comments from 'the dark side'  :-\



http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

FRED Columns
Things Lost

Reflections on an Empty Time

November 26, 2007

A conceit of our age is that we are the apex of civilization, having advanced beyond all others, these latter amounting by comparison to mere foreshadowings of Us. In the sciences and their rampaging child, technology, we are as remarkable as we think we are. Yet it is as if all our mind and heart have focused on these, leaving nothing for other endeavors. Among civilizations we are as specialized as Sparta, an idiot-savant.

The United States holds three hundred million souls, or people anyway, enjoying an historically high degree of wealth, leisure, and access to universities, or to places called universities. All that is needed for a truly Florentine flowering of the arts, of thought and culture, of manners, we have. Yet by most measures of cultivation, the country is a desert. A literate Florentine of the fifteenth century would regard it with horror. I suspect that he would regard Florence with almost equal horror. The buildings remain, but the spirit has flown.

The barrenness is not unique to the United States, but seems to be a correlate of techno-industrial civilization.

Consider the things that have been occupations of elevated societies from Fifth-Century Athens onward. What do we have? Almost no poetry worthy of the name exists, and no readership for it. As recently as the nineteenth century, a new book of verse from Byron became instantly what we today call a best-seller.

Symphonies die, regarded as elitist, which is thought to be a bad thing. The culture produces little music suitable for other than tailgate parties; most that is good comes from blacks, who are least under the spiritual dominion of the sciences. Sculpture means absurdities designed for sale to bureaucratic committees charged with beautifying malls. Curiously, excellent painters abound, but the public takes no notice. Architecture means cubes to contain cubicles. Theater lies insipid and unattended.

How many play an instrument? If philosophy exists, it hides. Apart from immigrants, the number of people who have mastered another language verges on none. Few understand why one might want to. Isn’t Seinfeld in English?

We have become a gilded peasantry, gurbling about laugh-tracked sit-coms, jiving to the ill-tempered barking of rap. Why?

I suspect that banality and emptiness go inseparably with the kingship of scientism, which is the application of the scientific tenor of thought to realms in which it does not belong. In part the reason is the wider distribution of greater wealth, in many but not all respects a good thing. When a hundred million of the gravely unschooled can afford SUVs, they become in effect the patrons of the arts and, as patrons usually do, they get what they want. Instead of Ludwig II nourishing Wagner, or Frederick the Great, Bach, we get Warner embracing Eminem. Art follows money. And so universal enrichment means universal impoverishment.

But there is more to it than this. The scientific habit of mind has killed off both religion and the spiritual wonderings behind so much of art. Thought has become purely materialistic in the philosophical sense. Today among the nominally educated it is regarded as uncouth to mention death or to wonder what might lie beyond. Among many of the less educated a hard and sterile Protestant fundamentalism flourishes, but it is an embittered, brainless thing. One does not easily imagine Jerry Falwell sculpting David or writing sonnets. The Catholic Church of Renaissance Italy was corrupt and venal, but it was magnificent and able to ponder things not expressible in equations. Perhaps it didn’t have truth, but it had style.

Writing a Wagnerian score requires (I think) a sense of the transcendent. To write The Lord of the Rings or to paint Leda and the swan, one need not believe in Norse gods raging in battle against chill skies, or a muscled Zeus throwing thunderbolts, or Pan leering from darkling forests. You need a mind that doesn’t smell of electrical insulation. This, few now have. The sciences are remorselessly literal. They do not admit of transcendence, wonder, or magnificence. People today drink this terrible narrowness with their mother’s milk and seldom get beyond it. They do not know what they have lost.

Thus a desert sunset is not a vast expanse of molten dunes on some unimaginable shore, stretching away in cascades of failing colors to the blue-black of the coming night and hinting of…what? That is the question. What is the wind saying?

No. A sunset is differential refraction, roygbiv, lambda equals, dispersion, water vapor, thermal upwellings caused by….

Scientism is of course utterly materialistic, having no way of dealing with (and therefore not admitting the existence of) anything other than space, time, matter, and energy. However, the sciences have been enormously successful in doing what they do. Thus we have airliners and curious pronged boxes crawling about on Mars. These are impressive, which gives to them overwhelming moral authority. They do not deserve it.

Scientism and religion are brothers in intent; they have just chosen different roads. Both are evasions.

Religion sees life as a passage, scientism as a condition; religion as a moral order, scientism as a material order. Thus the religious person thinks we come into this strange world (from where?), reside briefly, and leave for somewhere else (where?). Death seems to him a fact of some interest. It is a leaving. Often it is frightening. He makes up stories to relieve his unease. He may believe that a loving god put us here and awaits us, despite an immense lack of evidence.

The adherent of scientism comforts himself by insisting that the questions don’t exist. We didn’t come from anywhere and aren’t going anywhere. We are just momentary arrangements of matter, like bubbles in a test tube. The bubble bursts, the ripples subside, and we are simply…gone. There is no evidence for this either.

Finally, we have divorced ourselves almost completely from the natural world, and even more for respect for it. Once we were specks on the landscape. The mountains were vast and forbidding; one walked in them with a sense of awe, or at least of being small in a large place. You could lie beside a brook babbling through a forest and reflect that the world contained things other than the trivialities of human existence. This produced I think a tranquility that made for contemplation, a frame of mind conducive to what we call tiresomely “creativity.”

Now we are become a blight on the earth, with the tinker-toy minds of chemists, rushing about in noisy machines and leaving beer cans everywhere. I do not see how a Vivaldi or Corot or Milne can exist under such conditions. And they don’t.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on November 28, 2007, 09:58:54 PM
Whoever Fred is, S2b , I agree with him;  so did Henry Adams (in another forum) and the prophet Spengler. 

Seems tho we have a group reformed.  Pick one , I'll read it, but might I suggest, with others, that we widen the scope.  Examples might be those about Latin America like Under the Volcano  or the Bridge at San Luis Rey.

I wonder how Amazons Kindle might help those with no access to the books.

Nice to see you Mir.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on November 28, 2007, 10:14:57 PM
Hard to have a sense of the transcendent when the aim of society is the achievement of mediocrity.  And the idea of elitism seems to be frowned upon in our democratic society....we all must be equal otherwise people will feel bad about themselves.  Can't be having people run around with low self-esteem....


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on November 28, 2007, 11:02:24 PM
the aim of society is the achievement of mediocrity.

that bears repeating

the aim of society is the achievement of mediocrity.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on November 28, 2007, 11:53:52 PM
Johnr60
Thank you
It was nice to get up in the morning and see you are here.
Looking forward for our next discussion.
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on November 29, 2007, 02:37:38 AM


Hard to have a sense of the transcendent when the aim of society is the achievement of mediocrity.  And the idea of elitism seems to be frowned upon in our democratic society....we all must be equal otherwise people will feel bad about themselves.  Can't be having people run around with low self-esteem....


Thank you, Hoffman, for your astute comments. After reading Fred’s rather dreary depressing essay “Reflections on an Empty Time,” I was beginning to feel somewhat depressed.

Fred went on and on didn’t he? Surely, as you say, we “can't be having people run around with low self-esteem....” Luckily, as you know, I’ve been reading an even more depressing writer, Philip Larkin who turned down Margaret Thatcher’s invitation to be Poet Laureate. Instead Ted Hughes got it and ran with it. Philip Larkin was rather depressed most of the time...

For example, here’s a brief note from Philip Larkin to Kingsley Amis from a letter dated 3 January 1982:

“So now we face 1982, sixteen stone six, gargantuanly punched, helplessly addicted to alcohol, tired of living and scared of dying, world-famous unable-to-write poet, well you know the rest. The country’s down the drain. Soon to be an off-shore gambling island supported by prostitution and exhibiting the Queen. When will people realize that this is a dead era for writing like 1500-1588?”—Philip Larkin,  Selected Letters of Philip Larkin (1940-1985), edited by Anthony Thwaite, London: Faber and Faber, 1992

It was such a relief finally realizing the awful Truth—that we are all  living in a “dead era for writing like 1500-1588.” Somehow that mollified the uneasiness and ennui that Fred’s essay left me with…

But even better, Larkin’s comments lifted any responsibility from my stooped shoulders that would make me feel depressed or guilty-feeling about writing in general or posting in any of these forums—since after all we are all living in a “dead era for writing like 1500-1588.”

 :D :D :D


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on November 29, 2007, 10:33:59 AM
S2B

Take a good look at Fred's get up in the shot to the left of column, where have you seen that before?

Fred Read was either an admirer of Hunter Thompson; or, he envied him.
But he cannot become him by putting on motorcycle glasses, a cigar in his mouth,and twisting his cap backwards.  He doesn't write as well; and that's no surprise is it?  He's a complainer.

The people who made the most money under the current administration are not exactly in a state of emergency that the administration which they supported did away with Funding to the Arts.

Fred could ram his putative bike up the steps of Congress, in the same way that Norman Mailer took on the Pentagon, the actively participated in material, not just philosophized, which he later wrote about in: Armies of the Night.   In other words, he didn't write about it before and then not go to the protest.   Millions of us did not know what was going on immediately following that period because it was going on from Central America throughout the Southern Continent indiscriminately without borders as active military-police suppression of the
critical arts by killing off the artists and anybody else who happened to be standing there when that occurred. That was brought about by the same mastermind who designed the US gov't today. He wanted to see how it worked.

Now they've moved on to stage two, poison your food supply with what it is illegal to sell in North America while telling you it is a "Free"Trade agreement.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on November 29, 2007, 12:47:44 PM
Kewl! I'll be falling in to Lost Steps shortly. (3MB, our watering whole was Labyrinth Books. But we did visit yer MoMA -- deChirico sez Hi!)

2x13 ways of looking at magic realism:
http://www.public.asu.edu/%7Eaarios/resourcebank/definitions/

(Welcome back, Mr. Angel!)



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on November 29, 2007, 02:41:52 PM
(http://www.boingboing.net/_albums_i38_jimwoodring_sluggo.jpg)

Quote from: Reader5232 link=topic=36.msg50359#msg50359
date=1196357758

"I stepped out of the light just in time ..."

It sounds so dramatic, but the [meta?]physics
of it seem even more interesting.


Pardon my French...

but fuck the metaphysics...

Give me the magic realism, dude...







Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on November 29, 2007, 03:33:18 PM
Quote from: Reader5232 link=topic=36.msg50440#msg50440


Uh huh

What's the difference?


Obviously, dude, you'll have to read the book to find out...

 ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 29, 2007, 04:08:18 PM
I´ll be getting "Los pasos perdidos" tomorrow and start on it now that all of you
can get it,too.

I don´t agree so much with Fred Whatever.If you think of all the writers and artist of the past you are putting XX centuries of art (not counting in Greeks,Romansetc.) against one cent.,ours and here we have been reading some excellent writers that lived in our times,without including all the other arts and languages.

Medicocricity has always been the rule that is why "genios" are an esception.I on´t think that it took very many books to make a best seller in Byron´s time. Most population back then was totally illiterate.I don´t think for one moment that the masses flowed to the Vaticano to see the latest Michelangelo any more than they flow now to see any art exhibit.Now they stay home and watch TV and then they stayed with the pigs and drank some strong spirit had sex with a wench or sheep and went happily to sleep.Well, that´s a brief synopsis ofmy vision of the history of art  :)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on November 29, 2007, 10:50:50 PM
Quote
After reading Fred’s rather dreary depressing essay “Reflections on an Empty Time,” I was beginning to feel somewhat depressed.

Fred doesn't depress me.  He makes me mad that people don't want better for themselves. 

He can also be pretty funny.  "I am going to revitalize the American mayonnaise industry. Yes. Such is the patriotism rampant in this column. We will fill the nation’s swimming pools with the purest domestic variety, and then drown the entire staff of the public school system in it. I personally will tie cinderblocks to them.

My love of country is great: I will use no Chinese mayonnaise."
 

or

"I have decided that intelligence is pernicious, and should be extirpated. It just causes trouble. Practically every damn fool, deleterious thing our sorry race has done can be traced to intelligence. It is a bad idea. When it is not merely a bad idea, it is usually a waste of time.

Consider. William Buckley is very smart. So is Gore Vidal. Yet in their debates they wrangled like excessively elegant cats and could never agree on anything, except that they were both very smart. So what was the use? Two taxi drivers in a Chicago bar could have failed equally well to decide anything. Or they could have come to opposed and equally erroneous conclusions.

Generally intelligence has no effect on conclusions, which are glandularly determined. It just rationalizes hormonal inevitabilities."


And as to Larkin...when it mattered, he stood up and refused to play the game. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on November 29, 2007, 10:58:41 PM
Re popular metaphysics:  I think I would call magical realism a subset of metaphysics...or is it the other way around?  ;)

What is the nature of things?  What is real? 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on November 29, 2007, 11:32:22 PM
The edition Beppo and I have in hand:
(http://www.upress.umn.edu/images/S01/0816638071.big.gif)http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/C/carpentier_lost.html

Just cracked the introduction, by Timothy Brennan, to learn not only more about Carpentier but also about the title borrowing from Surrealist "Breton's volume of essays, Les pas perdus (1924), which means, significantly, both 'the lost steps' and 'the not lost'."

But what pulled me up most was this description of the narrator: "He is busy wasting his life, meandering in New York, toying with the idea of defrauding his benefactors with fake scholarship ..." -- hey, touché, have to be careful what I say, eh?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on November 30, 2007, 05:51:44 AM
Lal Friends,
I cannot get the Lost steps...
But, I do have in my hands El Siglo de las luces - Explosion in the Cathedral. I do remember we once wanted to discuss this book. So, maybe you have already discuss it.
I also can reach 4 other books of Carpentier:
The Kingdom of this world - Il reino de este mundo
War of times - Guerra del tiempo
Manhunt - El acoso
Reason of state - Recurso del metodo
:(
Maybe I'll find The Lost steps in English, but if it is not in the library, it will take sometime to buy it.
So, I'll have to lurk here if the all of you have already started the Lost Steps...
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 30, 2007, 10:31:35 AM
These are the  ones we read:Concierto barroco,El reino de este mundo,El acoso.Guerra del tiempo.





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on November 30, 2007, 02:59:05 PM
Oohhh
You've read so many books of Carpentier.
I am going to read everything I can, in the next weeks.
If I'll find The lost steps in English, I'll be happy to join the discussion.
M


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 30, 2007, 06:23:08 PM
O.K. now I´ll get TLS (Los pasos perdidos)I was going to this morning but then when I read Myriam post I didn´t as it is quite expensive (most books here come from Spain,Euros).

From what I googled up it is sounds great.The difference between *civilizacion y barbarie* in LatAm it is a current issue.Look at Chavez etc.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 01, 2007, 12:10:34 AM
Martin,
Look at
www.bookfinder.com
I am quite sure you can find a used copy of the book, for a few dollars.
Books are expensive all over the world.
As my private library is quite loaded, I buy only the books which I cannot find here (Portuguese books...)
Public libraries are great in my town and I can take 3 books and more at once.
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 01, 2007, 11:38:38 AM
Martin,
Go to this site
http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=17-9780140261936-0
you'll find
Pasos Perdidos for 13.5 american $, ship included...
good luck!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 01, 2007, 12:35:05 PM
martinbeck3

I loved your post #607 "and when you've got a minute ...." you'll enjoy reading John Berger who lives with the peasants in the South of France who keep warm with the animals living on the ground floor to let the heat rise during winter.  He was once an English Art critic who pointed out to the public at large, in newspaper columns, that art tastes were those of the Sovereign Patrons both Monarch,Guilds, Presidents and Corporate Business, until he published a book on that subject, small but lethal, and retired to France to write a major work in several volumes about what we lose when we have lost the life of peasants.  I thought he was dead by now? But noticed the recent New York Review of Books was advertising another book of his that seems to indicate he's still there keeping warm a little above the animals.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 01, 2007, 12:57:48 PM
MADDIE,I read several short novels by John Berger some years ago.The FP thought they were *asquerosas*= *gross* ::)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 01, 2007, 03:21:03 PM
Like, Pig Earth?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 05:09:51 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9d/Alejo_Carpentier.jpg)
Alejo Carpentier (1904-1980)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 06:13:25 PM
"But what is the history of Latin America but a chronicle of magical realism?"— Alejo Carpentitier

Colchie, Thomas (editor), A Hammock Beneath the Mangoes: stories from Latin America; Penguin Group, 416–417(1991).

"For what is the story of [Latin] America if not a chronicle of the marvealous in the real."— Alejo Carpentitier

Gosser Esquilín, Mary Ann. Caribbean Identities Reconstructed and Redefined in Women's Narrative Texts: Marie Chauvet, Myriam Warner-Vieyra, and Ana Lydia Vega. Latin American Issues, 13(2) (1997).

Is there a difference between "real maravilloso" and magic realism? Or should we call it “fabulation”? Or should we perhaps simply read the novel and let it happen? I’m open to whatever the Latin literature group would like to do... 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 01, 2007, 06:22:03 PM
It’s snowing outside today. I’m reading The Lost Steps.

I’m up to Chapter VI (Friday 9th)—perhaps it’s too late.

The magic has already set in…  :D

“The next day, as we could not go out, we tried to adjust ourselves to the reality of a beleaguered castle, a quarantined ship, which events had forced upon us. But instead of sloth, the magic situation that reigned in the streets manifested itself within our protecting walls in an urge to do something.”


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 02, 2007, 08:17:53 AM
Hello Lal friends,
I ordered a copy of The lost Steps in bookfinder shops.
It will arrive to my home in 3 weeks.
Martin, did you manage to buy the book?
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 02, 2007, 05:57:17 PM
Magic Realism


2x13 ways of looking at magic realism:

http://www.public.asu.edu/%7Eaarios/resourcebank/definitions/


Thank you for the excellent definition page for Magical Realism.

I’ve been reading an online essay by Zamora about Carpentier and the Baroque—and why the Baroque was important to him in terms of his lo real maravilloso americano approach to his novels.

Here is a small excerpt from her essay that may be helpful to the readers in our discussion of The Lost Steps:

Lois Parkinson Zamora, “Swords and Silver Rings: Objects and Expression in Magical Realism and the New World Baroque”

http://www.uh.edu/~englmi/ObjectsAndSeeing_3.html

“You'll recall that it was the Cuban novelist Alejo Carpentier who first made explicit the connection between Baroque representation and American versions of magical realism. In his 1949 preface to his novel The Kingdom of this World, Carpentier referred to lo real maravilloso americano (the American marvelous real), which he defined in negative terms: lo real maravilloso americano is not European and it is most especially not Surrealism.

In later interviews, he amplified his definition, saying that the marvelous real consists of "the strange, the singular, the unusual . . .

But what is interesting for our purposes is that almost immediately after 1949, he began to link his American marvelous real to the Baroque, eventually conflating the two in ways that render them virtually indistinguishable. Carpentier's engagement of a European art historical category--the Baroque--when he was, in fact, aiming to distance himself from Europe, when he was aiming to differentiate American cultural identity from European cultural models, is noteworthy, and the question is why?

“It is my strong sense that Carpentier recognized the need for the Baroque as a counterbalance to his American marvelous real not for its elaborate ornamentation or for its dynamics of decentering or its theatrical space or its illusionism or its hyperbole--though all of these Baroque characteristics would prove useful; rather, I believe that he needed the Baroque for its realism.

In interviews and essays, Carpentier repeatedly insists upon the realistic character of Baroque representation, and on the importance of Baroque realism to Latin American writers attempting to depict Latin America's histories and people. In a 1964 essay entitled "Problematics of the Current Latin American Novel," Carpentier cites a contemporary poet as saying, "Show me the object; make it with your words so that I can touch it, value it, feel its weight," and then he adds, "The object lives, is seen, lets its weight be felt.

But the prose that gives life and substance, weight and measure [to the object] is a Baroque prose, a forcefully Baroque prose . . . "

Carpentier was a lifelong student of the visual arts, and of art history, and he knew perfectly well that Baroque realism aims not simply to replicate the world, but also to make available to the viewer an invisible realm beyond the real.”




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 02, 2007, 06:02:24 PM
(http://www.uh.edu/~englmi/i/garciaMarquez/SaintFrancisXavierJose.jpg)

The Lost Steps

Here is a small example of Carpentier’s use of Baroque imagery—I’m using the Harriet De Onís translation until I get the other one soon. This meeting with the Curator of the Museum of Organography is ornate and fascinating—and the way the Curator handles the impatient Narrator is both clever and promising of things to come…

“In the familiar mirror with its heavy rococo frame crowned by the Esterházy coat of arms, I saw myself sitting stiffly like a child taken visiting. Cursing his asthma, crushing out a cigarette that was choking him to light up one of stramonium, which made him cough, the Curator of the Museum of Organography trotted about the little room crowed with cymbals and Asiatic tambourines, making our tea, which was fortunately to be accompanied by Martinique rum. Between two shelves hung an Incan quena; on his desk, waiting to be catalogued, lay a sackbut of the time of the Conquest of Mexico, a beautiful instrument whose bell was a Tarascan head with silver scales, enamel eyes, and open jaws that turned a double row of copper teeth on me…”—Alejo Carpentier, The Lost Steps, Trans. Harriet De Onís, pages 16-17



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 02, 2007, 11:31:33 PM
Is this Carpentier Alejo Carpentier the musicologist?  His studies primarily involve Cuban dance forms and folk music, and his father studied cello with Pablo Casals.  If this is the same guy, does much of his musical background filter into his writing?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 03, 2007, 01:44:59 AM

Is this Carpentier Alejo Carpentier the musicologist?  His studies primarily involve Cuban dance forms and folk music, and his father studied cello with Pablo Casals.  If this is the same guy, does much of his musical background filter into his writing?


Yes, Hoffman... which makes it even more interesting...

Especially for you a talented musician and teacher...

I hope you'll read Carpentier with us and share your insights with us?




 



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on December 03, 2007, 03:41:46 AM
Aaarrggghhh  >:(  the National Library copy is *missing* and so they've put a search out for me...I hope to know within a week if they have another copy I can read of "The Lost Steps" ... there aren't any copies in the local megabookstores (I still plan to visit the used bookstore I found later this week as well) and it would take until mid-January for anything from amazon.com to reach me here  :-\

I did find an interesting book while scouring the library shelves though, "The Hive" by Camilo Jose Cela (winner 1989 nobel prize) and may have to console myself by reading it.  This book was first published in Argentina, it was banned for some years in Spain...somewhat outside the LAL arena, however, with mringel here again I know no one will mind if we continue to adopt these Spanish/Portuguese authors into our reading family  :)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 03, 2007, 05:39:18 AM
S2B

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0374521999/ref=sib_dp_pt/105-2297998-8025217#reader-link

This amazon link gives you a preview of the first 24 pages of Carpentier's The Lost Steps.

The De Onis translation...  It will give you a start on the novel...
    :)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on December 03, 2007, 07:22:51 AM
Now *that* is magic  :)  thank you Puget, I can get started while waiting to hear from the Library


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 03, 2007, 02:51:55 PM
I´ve got the book and really cheap in my *magic library*.The guy told me to look after the store while he went downsatairs into the cellar where he had old- new editions and came back with a copy for less than half the price I´d been asked.

As soon as this store gives me some free time-and the FP with her extended family which has grown still more extended as the two who divorced last summer came back with their new couples where one has one kid and the other FIVE!!! - The FP believes in adding not substracting that means we are now a  gypsy tribe.Thank god for open spaces like the shores of the Rio de la Plata.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 04, 2007, 12:03:33 PM
MADDIE
yes,"Puerca tierra" as I read the spanish version.Not easy to find English books here. "It´s full of gross bodily fluids",the FP dixit.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 04, 2007, 12:49:21 PM
NNYHAV ,Master the Linkmeister,once again thank you for that great link where several critics  opine on  magic realism.
"Magical realism, unlike the fantastic or the surreal, presumes that the individual requires a bond with the traditions and the faith of the community, that s/he is historically constructed and connected. (P. Gabrielle Foreman. Past on Stories: History and the Magically Real, Morrison and Allende on Call. Magical Realism. Ed. Zamora and Faris"
I have always thought it was so.

PUGET, Southern Sq.,
thank you,too for the link .I so enjoyed the counterpoint of styles between :
"Aduanero" Rousseau vs. Xul Solar
 Garcia Marquez vs. Borges

HOFFMAN
Alejo Carpentier said that all LatAm music comes from the baroque

S2B
don´t miss the film La colmena or El espiritu de la colmena,I can´t remember which of the two is based on The Hive.They are Spanish films:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070040/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083743/


LATAM LIT FRIENDS
I have repeated on and on in this and the other LatAm lit. forum that magic realism is a reality in Latin American that I felt very proud to see that Alejo Carpentier said the same thing . I nearly fainted,well,not That much.

In Arnold Hauser´s book  Social History of Lit. and Art -vol II- the two first chapters on the baroque are a must for whoever wants to analyze magic realism and his other book "Manierism".


This is an excellent film if you want to catch the idea of the baroque and its influence on magic realism:
 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099107/



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on December 04, 2007, 07:37:25 PM
Hello there to all ye!

I'm still on the recovery from some kind of timezone mishmash/jet-laggery. Having to return to work straight after coming back from New York City was a bit of a curveball but it's a small price to pay for what was a great experience. And meeting nnyhav as well! Anyway, count me in for the discussion of The Lost Steps when it kicks off.  I've still a bit to go...
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 05, 2007, 06:17:20 AM
Beppo,
The word Mishmash...what is its source?
I think we speak the same mother tangue...
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on December 05, 2007, 06:37:09 AM
martinbeck3:


"I bet the part of the poem you ,Boca, will utterly rejoice in is:

We want happy workers—
We don’t want Union Poetry
None of that Solidarity stuff… "


My son went today to the State Funeral for Berny Banton, a ordinary Australian and a giant of a man. Plenty of the solidarity stuff. If you're curious enough check the Sydney Morning Herald online for tomorrow, Thursday 6th December, 2007.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on December 05, 2007, 06:48:15 AM
s2b: Thank you for Fred's column, can't agree more with it. We're well paid brutes. There's  this deep feeling that things will be lost and won't be re-created ever again.

Who reads poetry anymore?. I bought  a few tens of clasics from the Penguin clasics, soft cover, on cheap newsprint, the kind of books I used to buy in my youth, back in Argentina, and now I've found that for this or that I never have the time to sit down and realy enjoy the reading.

This doesn't bid well, we're bussy out of nothing, I don't know about you guys, but I'm still in working age, so my days are spent mostly commuting and working and then eating, watching the news, and by then, falling asleep on the keyboard trying to have some semblance of social interaction with thinking individuals, either here, whenever I "visit" , or other blogs and forums in Spanish, just to fool my self thinking that I'm still an Argentine like Martin, back there in Martinez or Olivos or any of those posh Buenos Aires' suburbs where oligarchs like him live.

I want time!!!, whendo I wan' it?, NOWWW!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on December 05, 2007, 06:58:07 AM
mringel:

"The word Mishmash...what is its source?"

The word is of Serbo-Croatian origine and it means "squashed mouse"  (this is a joke that only makes me laugh...very lonely joke..ha...ha ha... hummm)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on December 05, 2007, 09:56:54 AM
Babeltlön
http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2007/12/future-warehouse-of-unwanted-books.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 05, 2007, 12:38:41 PM
(http://www.grazian-archive.com/quiddity/Ginsberg/Cover.jpg)

American Weimar
—for Allen Ginsberg

Dipping into Dystopian Lit—
Can be lots of Entertainment like
A phone call from the Big Apple…

“I don’t have time for prose anymore”—
Allen Ginsberg told me from NYC
“That’s why I like your poetry.”

“I try to write it quick,” I said—
“Down, dirty and fast like Bukowski   
In the dark with a hangover.”

“Poetry is shorthand” he said—
“Spontaneous verse the name of 
The Americanist Blog Muse…”

“I thought you were dead” I said—
Long-distance clairvoyance not
My usual modus operandi…

He laughed telling me—
“You’d be surprised, baby, you’re
Still just a naïve chicken poet…”   

I told him I was getting paranoid—
I kept feeling I was like living
During American Weimar times…

“Honey wake up and smell it”—
He said telling me “It’s later than
You think—it’s already 1935.”     

http://www.gaypoetry.com/design/poetry_dis.asp?dataID=34711





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 05, 2007, 01:11:01 PM
NNYHAV,Master the Linkmeister
that link surely was astonishing! It is totally Borgean or maybe Kafkian.Speaking of magic realism well this fact from *real reality* is more than any writer could have imagined and how nonsensical.What´s the point?

BEPPO,great to have you join in. NYC is a crazy place where crazy things happen,isn´t it?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 05, 2007, 01:49:45 PM
NNYHA,
A great link, I agree
So many books are being published each day....and still there is a place for all of them in libraries.
It reminds me also of Borges "Babel library".
Kafka used to say that he is a book, borges talked about One book, and a rehearsel of it in other books.
Herman Hesse spoke about library of the world and tried to choose the books to put in this library. Then he thought that if a human being reads 12 books in his whole life, it is o.k. So quantity is not the issue, and here in LAL, dealing with magic realism, the proof to this thought can be found in each book written in south america (or in Portugal and maybe Spain).

Beppo,
It is interesting, as the word Mishmash has quite the same meaning in Hebrew....and unlike many words which entered into hebrew from many other languages, this word is originaly hebrew.
I found out that in some languages a word can sound and mean the same. for example: the word Medida in Portuguese and Hebrew has the same meaning...and in American literature one can easily find a Mishmash languages...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 05, 2007, 02:03:32 PM
Mringel...It makes sense that many words would be the same in Hebrew and Portuguese.  The Hebrews settled in the Iberian peninsula as early as 500(ish) BCE.  By the founding of Portugal in the 1100's, there were many Jewish communities.  The Jews lived quite happily in Portugal until Manuel I came to power sometime in late 1400's early 1500's and began to remove Jewish children from their parents to be raised by nice Catholic families.  Then of course came the inquisition....


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 05, 2007, 02:05:10 PM
Pugetopolis, American Weimar Magic Realism.  But I suspect you have many more muses than Mr. Ginsberg...and all of them smile on you.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 05, 2007, 02:30:04 PM
Pugetopolis, American Weimar Magic Realism

"American Weimar Magic Realism"... nice phrase. It sounds so derigeur and nightmarish like "Brazil."

Sometimes I think the Latin American and Euro-Fabulists are way ahead of us. Borges' translation of Faulkner's Wild Palms and our discussion in Fiction still has me thinking about things like the "Moment"...

And the different spin Borges put on Wild Palms with his translation of Faulkner...

Reading Carpentier's novel makes me think the same thing. You've got this disillusioned rather baroque-thinking Musicologist on the verge of doing this "Journey of Darkness" trip into the dark reaches of some strange Amazonian-esque river... I can't help but think of Wild Palms with its double-storyline.

As I read deeper into the novel, I get the feeling that the Musicologist is being set-up by the Curator of the Museum of Organology for a Wild Palms journey like the one in "Apocalypse Now." That movie got kind of over-fabulated if you ask me; or maybe not depending on how one defines Viet Nam War Baroque.

The Lost Steps starts out somewhat slowly with over-detailed Baroque discriptions about the wife and her stale drama career, but I'm sure that's just setting the stage for whatever happens next, don't you think?






Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on December 05, 2007, 10:30:06 PM
In our neighborhood this time around:
http://www.quarterlyconversation.com/TQC10/winter08.html
includes articles on Aira, Cortazar, Eco de Queiros ... 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 06, 2007, 03:41:49 AM


Babeltlön
http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2007/12/future-warehouse-of-unwanted-books.html




Thanks,nnyhav!  I particularly liked ending up in the stereopticon view of the British Museum which is so menacingly different an interior from the exterior just a shot away from the Bloomsbury digs. It is hard to imagine Karl Marx seated in the interior and then going out for a cigar to remind himself where he really is as he writes the History of Economics. A former poster from the first year of the War left us behind at The New York Times knowing he was called up because he was a field artillery specialist who had studied at the War College (which I passed one day to visit the graves of Apache children along the roadside at Carlisle Indian School). He sent me an e-mail postcard of the exterior air-view of the British Museum on his way to Verdun. He had to walk the battlefield before shipping out to Iraq. You get the footing of it to plan your artillery positions while talking to the dead.

This, in effect, is what poets do. They scout locations to conjure up the dead who will speak to them what must yet be said. I learned this from...
experience.

Then, at Christmas, he sent another post-card of the Eiffel Tower. The strange thing about his selections was that they were grayed, black and white, as if seen through fading cannon smoke. Before Mr. Bush's war, his pictures of Napoleon's tomb at the Champs du Mars/Invalides were in shining military colors.

Back to Babeltlon

One crosses a bridge or enters an arcaded passageway and suddenly you are back with Umberto Eco, in the dialogue of -- In the Name of the Rose. I always think of Bill Everson,who was brother Antoninus when I listened to him, his terrible anger at discovering the name of the rose. He was angry in the manner of the grande inquisitors. Possibly, this novel by Eco is the most complete novel ever read, easy to understand, complex in signification. Why easy? Because if one has their earliest recognition of the cleverness and kindness of monks, the jongleurs of the garden and the kitchen and the cell, you understand the completeness of the world in leaving the World; although the significant complexity signifies nearly as much depth as Hesse's Glass Bead Game of which our world is composed. Gratia plenum


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 06, 2007, 07:33:00 AM

Even for Albuquerque, that's pretty Albuquerque.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on December 06, 2007, 12:10:37 PM
Some thoughts upon having completed reading The Lost Steps:

Disorientation: Narrative shifts from stage to backstage include displacements in time. Story moves forward as subject goes backwards (and movement westward is another etymology for disorienting): this is an anti-modernist tract in modernist drag. The critic turned upon himself, the mask depicting a mask slipping to reveal a mask. The narrator's misdirections are difficult to resolve, unreliability not necessarily of motive. There's a lot to say about time, music, creativity, and how each is reflected in the unfolding of the narrative itself, but it can wait ...

Aside from the malleability of time, this strikes me as apart from magic realism, perhaps because the perspective is from outside, unattained. The opposition to Surrealism is real enough though, and taking on the fashions and fascisms of the time is no surprise, but Nietzsche and especially Ludwig van get a bum rap (maybe it's that Ludovico thang) -- I said anti-modernist already, but it's also anti-decadent, with a sort of Rousseauic flavor. Perhaps it's the anti-Heart-of-Darkness.

Random observation: The phrase "the kingdom of this world" (title of his earlier novel) occurs twice, once midway through and once near the end, capitalized only in the later instance.

Will save the archaeology (i.e. digging deeper into the text) til after other readers finish and my thoughts and afterthought coalesce ...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 06, 2007, 07:32:51 PM
nnyhave,re:#649

"Random observation: The phrase "the kingdom of this world" (title of his earlier novel) occurs twice, once midway through and once near the end, capitalized only in the later instance."

The title,"The Known World" was used by the Richmond,Virginia writer,Edward P.Jones, for the same purpose, to imply the separation of this world from the ideal other world which the innocent have religiously trained into them and therefore not ready for the shock of what cruelty  is effected upon the nonsuspecting idealistic.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on December 07, 2007, 08:12:53 AM
Beppo,
It is interesting, as the word Mishmash has quite the same meaning in Hebrew....and unlike many words which entered into hebrew from many other languages, this word is originaly hebrew.
I found out that in some languages a word can sound and mean the same. for example: the word Medida in Portuguese and Hebrew has the same meaning...and in American literature one can easily find a Mishmash languages...

Thanks mringel - I'll keep my eye out for any others.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on December 07, 2007, 08:20:25 AM
BEPPO,great to have you join in. NYC is a crazy place where crazy things happen,isn´t it?

Someone who'd been there recently said to me that they felt like they were at the centre of the world when they were in Manhattan. I agree. The busiest place I've ever been in and probably the most exciting...

 



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 07, 2007, 01:53:05 PM
PUGET, very interesting parallel between The Lost Steps and Heart of Darkness and Wild Palms.
 
NNYHAV, as soon as I hava done some progress on my reading I´ll look for the subjects you point.

LatAm lit friends, I am just starting on(?,sounds funny) the book but  from the criticism I´ve googled I think Puget´s parallel is very appropiate.Do you know that here in LatAm. the struggle between civilazation and *barbarie* has been a constant subject with our writers like Sarmeinto and Asturias.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 07, 2007, 01:54:59 PM
BEPPO, one(1) day, alas! when I don´t have debt and work breathing down my neck I´ll tell you my NYC adventure.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 08, 2007, 01:25:53 AM
Lal friends,
I hope I'll get the book before this discussion will progress too much...
I'd love to be a part in the real literature discussion.
I am terribly busy these days: I have a new grandson!! just born, and I am going to move to a new apartement in a month.
A new office room, with new home library, where all my books will be "setteled down".

I was only once in New York and it may surprise you, Beppo and you, Martin: I did not like it at all.
People say that NY is such a city that you like or don't like.
I don't feel at ease in big cities. Madrid is too big for me, too dramatic, while Barcelona is a city I could live in.
Well, Lisbon was and will be my favorite city. A small beautiful city, merged with old and new, water, hills, narrow alleys, cafes every 5 steps, old bookshops. A mystery and welcoming feeling at the same time.
When I land in Lisbon airport (something I did so many times), I feel I just came home, as if I never leaved the place.
It is probably true that my ancestors were portugueses...if not, it would be difficult to explain this feeling.
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on December 08, 2007, 10:03:33 AM
Congratulations Abuelita  ;)

I too am still waiting to hear from the library about the missing or the archieved copy of Lost Steps, I've been to all the other local sources and have not found it...it looks like I might find a copy in Australia (at least A&R show it in Spanish and English editions on their website) when I'm there later this month, however, that will be much too late to join in here :-\

waiting...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 08, 2007, 11:57:58 AM
Listen Up!  Microsoft has just discovered what a friend phoned to tell me their Computer Tech  has put up bulletins throughout their workplace that a New Virus gets into your e-mail and then sends you an e-mail which tells you that A FAMILY MEMBER IS TRYING TO CONTACT YOU

DO NOT OPEN.  IT WILL TURN OFF YOUR COMPUTER. WHEN YOU START YOUR COMPUTER AGAIN, IT WILL DESTROY YOUR HARD DRIVE


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 09, 2007, 01:40:01 AM
S2B,
Thank you
It is a great joy to have grand children, especially in our age.

I hope you'll find the book in Australia and read it quickly, and then be a part of the discussion.
I am still waiting for mine...until then I read other books of Carpentier and Magic Realism is in every phrase of the book.

Being a literature teacher for many years, I recommended my students to read the book without reading critic articles upon it. Just to experience an individual reading and interpretation.
I was never disappointed, on the contrary, they always saw and understood things that some great Prof. did not notice.
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 09, 2007, 03:41:13 PM
(http://cinemexicano.mty.itesm.mx/imagenes/roberto_cobo.jpg)

Roberto Cobo (1930-2002)

We’ve been discussing magic realism over in Movie Club for awhile now—movies like del Toro’s Pan’s Labyrinth and Alejandro Amenábar’s The Others.

We also discussed some Weimar magic realism with Pabst’s Pandora’s Box and Lang’s Metropolis

But I keep returning to “lo real maravilloso americano” for some reason—Buñuel’s Los Olvidados (1950) for example and a more recent film Gus Van Sant’s Mala Noche (1985). Both are black and white realistic movies—but, well, you know Buñuel. Neo-realism has its own magic. The same with  Van Sant’s cult film Mala Noche about the Portland Oregon poet Walt Curtis and his love for young Chicano culture… The new Criterion dvd is very well done…

Roberto Cobo (1930-2002) who plays El Jaibo in Los Olvidados had a long career in Mexican film—doing over a hundred movies. He was 20 years old when he played the nefarious young gangster in   Buñuel’s Los Olvidados (1950). He reminds me of “Johnny” in Van Sant’s Mala Noche. Apparently he barely survived the 1985 Mexico City earthquake.   

Looking down over the long list of his filmography—I wish I could see more of his movies… 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0167952/




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 10, 2007, 09:33:19 AM
Magic Bookstore

remember I´ve often mention how i can get almost any book there,well now it can see it in this video:

http://www.lnteve.com/video88-boutique-del-libro


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 10, 2007, 09:49:39 AM
BTW, how do you like my new avatar the great Sandro de America. Everybody criticized the guy in the yellow jumpsuit so i decided this one will be more to the liking specially for the ladies in these intellectual fora  ;).
Sometimes he gets grabbed by an epyleptic fit while singing but the female public says it is  most interesting to see how he can perform through it and overcome his handicap.

PUGET, as soon as I have some time i´ll visit the movie club forum.I love  Amenabar´s films besides "Los otros" and Pan´s Labyrinth, I´ve seen "Mar adentro" (a true story of a guy that fought so that he could be disconnected from the wires that kept him alive) dignity is the word i´d choose for  the way Amenabar directed this story. "La lengua de las mariposas" and "Abre los ojos" which later was done in USA as Vanilla Sky, a sorry pastiche.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 10, 2007, 12:09:37 PM
Martin.
Gostei muitissimo o Boutique del libro.
Felizemente, pode encontrar boutique como este em muitas cidades...
Verdade, Argentina e Argentina
Ler, tomar cafe, falar etc...e sobretudo a atmosfera...
Saramago was mentioned in this short video...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on December 11, 2007, 02:45:37 AM
MB3 I want to live there...in your magic bookstore.  How wonderful ! and I adore your new avatar.

I have Pan's Labyrinth with me on DVD and must watch it soon...

still waiting to hear from the library  :(


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 11, 2007, 12:41:49 PM
HI! I´m posting on some parts of The Lost Steps that have drawn my attention:

Why the quote from Deuteronimus at the beginning? My Bible knowledge is close to nil though at school i could name how many times Jesus had woken the dead or cast the evil spirits etc.

I like how the book begins I fell for the trick and thought it was a real place not the scenery of a show,"all the world´s a stage and men and women..." (?)

Why the title Los pasos perdidos? Maybe because of A La Recherche du Temps Perdu,time lost,lost in time,going back in time ?

I wonder how  it was translated into Enlgish "...la luna del conocido espejo ",the Esterhazy mirror. I hope it is not translated as *moon*.

Loved the metaphor"...cuando agotamos los tiempos de la anarquía  amorosa"(my trans."when we tired the times of amorous anarchy") "anarquía amorosa", awesome! who wouldn´t read a 1000 lines in these 2 words!

The character´s theory of how music started-by copying the sounds of animals and birds,just like primitive paintings- is quite convincing, rhythmical-magic-mimmetism Carpentier calls it.

Cortázar in Rayuela (Hopscotch) has this character La Maga and I think she owes a great debt to Carpentier´s Mouche the astrologer with her funny group of friends and gurus.

Have I been reading too quickly.I can´t find the character´s (I) name?

At the end of chapter 1: how *He* misses the times gone by,the past,another way of living.Maybe this is the clue to the title,this search for the past times he had known and wondering if the men in Goya´s painting Cronos had had these same*saudades*. MRINGEL: how could i translate this word?

When Carpentier describes -beginnning of chap.2- how a house in the tropics decays as soon as the owners have left for a trip,how the roots take over,I´d say how this house ,built by Le Corbusier, the maximim authority in architectural modernism is overgrown and taken over by the jungle.

I lived through that same experience when I left my contemporary bungalow in Buzios (Br) for a month trip to Buenos Aires.When I returned the ivy, a sort of magic bean, had grown and covered the whole house so that I couldn´t see it form the garden ,it looked just like a huge bush.This same ivy had gone into the house through a whole in the door and grown inside the house but yellow in color for lack of sun ,metres and metres of it rolling over furniture and rooms.The *potus* plants the FP had put into several jars with water had also grown with yellow leaves ,but they were not dead leaves they were very alive.

See what i mean when I say that magic-realism is not scary or ridiculous or just a literary trick but very real in LatAm?   


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 11, 2007, 01:30:45 PM
Martin...there was something in the theory that music arose as mimitism of nature that got me thinking about the quality of the human voice....not singing, but just speaking.  Language is music, and the message is different depending on inflection, rise and fall, dymanics.  Even without benefit of facial expression, we understand intent from tone. 

A La Recherche du Temps Perdu...there is something Proustian to be found in Los pasos perdidos



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 11, 2007, 03:45:50 PM
Martinbeck3,re:664
"gone into the house through a whole in the door and grown inside the house but yellow in color for lack of sun".

Ah,yes. I once had a land-lady from "Asturias" who had some fantastic a-storias.

Astorias, in Queens that is; when her female relatives and friends came to visit, it was much clearer that they had originally lived in the magnificent tropical Caribbean. Carmen has made some changes, as a blond who married a man named Johnson. Her house had the foundation partially built into the slope of a hill.

By the end of the 1980s, the migration had intensified to get out of the boroughs of New York, crossed gradually over the so-called once "North" Jersey and descended gradually looking for work and places to live. Pretty much more of the same. Much of it resulted from the Central American wars of the previous end of decade.

In order to move from the eastern part of the state at the Jersey Shore to the western part of the state toward the Delaware, I took out a newspaper subscription to search for a rental. Eventually, I met Carmen who had a semi-basement apartment for rent; in which, I had street level windows in my Spanish tile bathroom that looked like it came right out of Lina Wertmuller's film,Film d'amore e d'anarchia, ovvero 'stamattina alle 10 in via dei Fiori nella nota casa di tolleranza...' (1973).

As you will note, in the US, known as: Love and Anarchy.  It was conveniently designed, the bathroom that is, by an Italian mason whom I eventually met on a snowy,icy day just before the end of his life.

The next room, my favourite, I once described to desdemona222,was the former Laundry room, not where the washing was done because that had evidentally been where the bathroom was now but, my bedroom had been where the laundry was folded and ironed, and stacked in built in bead-board cabinets for another century. The Ceiling to ground-level windows providing light, probably once for plants now was a sitting place where I could step over from the book shelf built into my bed and sit on the wide platform of the window for my reading room.

From there,the door exited to a tiny hall with "snecks" on the cupboards,an old colonial form of hardware, to your left toward the back-door to the porch;to the right, you entered the living room with parquet floor,pull-out couchbed,more built-in bookcases for students. Or, you could walk straight ahead into the pass-through kitchen and into the open-light of a dining room now firmly on the ground at the bottom of the slope.

This last room exited into what New Jerseyeans refer to as a "mudroom",which had an adjacent door from that parquet-floored living room, the doors at right angles. The front-door, where I placed the large sized colonial mailbox,immediately next to the living-room door, opened to an uphill sidewalk; but the room had plenty of windows viewing the cul-de-sac so I could watch the activity of the neighborhood. It was also perfect for a writing table on which I could place the Olivetti Lettera.

This did not last, one day I came back from my walks to discover the town area by area and discovered also a pale yellowish vine attempting to have enough light to become green.  It was coming from under the house,under the baseboards, it was jointed with a single leaf to each joint which in retrospect I think is today's popular "bamboo-Plant for Good Luck". I immediately went for my gardening gloves and yanked it out which was quite tough as bamboo is very persistent and marches on ahead of a founding plant.  Bamboo grows quite well in New Jersey. Because of the Alejo Carpentier books, I learned that it got here from Haiti.

"Let us consider one last curious-and perhaps even "marvelous" fact, as Carpentier himself might affirm: Toussaint Louverture, at age fifteen, voluntarily traveled to a certain former British colony in 1779 to serve as a drummer boy. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the implications of this occasion have yet to be studied by scholars."

In other words, he had been here before me, with Washington's army and did not remain to live nor his descendents to live in what I often have referred to as, "the smallest ghetto in the United States".

"...many major figures of the Revolution are left out: Toussaint Louverture, along with Dessalines and Alexandre Pétion. To interpret these exclusions, it is helpful to consider that in Carpentier's prologue to El Reino de este mundo he launches an attack on the surrealist movement in Europe. Carpentier argues that surrealism is a tired, pretentious movement based on artificial codes for the fantastic; in his opinion, it is necessary to "return to the real," for the American continent is full of marvels that need only be documented, such as a journalist would. At the end of the prologue lies Carpentier's famous question, "What is the history of America if not a chronicle of the real maravilloso?" (This technique is not to be confused with magical realism, which involves creative invention rather than the documentation of observable phenomena.)"

These quotes are from a graduate paper at the Univ.of Pennsylvania.

I first learned about Alejo Carpentier through a fellow poster of many years, known as Red or perhaps Blue, anyway he changed his name from one to the other whichever, when they did away with the African-American Literature forum at the hands of the Sussman. Red or Blue lives in Florida and was an expert on the literature, music and films of the African diaspora. We may have been reading,The Known World, at the time of the changeover in which negritude was done away with and swamped by American literary "Fiction".  He hung around for awhile also in our new basement, the substacks of fighting between fiction and nonfiction, reading Hannibal(as the Italians say, Annibale) and the Punic Wars.  I don't think that he has the faintest idea that we are here in "exile" but he certainly taught me a lot about Walter Mosley,Stanley Crouch,Henry Louis Gates,Jr. and a multitude of others, James Baldwin, who left for France during the days of Josephine Baker and was visited by a very young Henry Louis Gates,jr. who interviewed the novelist in exile.


 



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 11, 2007, 04:43:17 PM
Ps,martinbeck3,

"A La Recherche du Temps Perdu...there is something Proustian to be found in Los pasos perdidos." quote Lhoffman

Not really, although I was going to mention in your translation was the first time that I caught those were not architecturally lost steps but a going back to something unknown.

Proust had merely forgotten. It is the nature of writing, as I early discovered while writing to my teacher at Santa Barbara,post-San Francisco for most of his lifetime, that the constrainment of learning how you must write causes the well-springs of memory to disgorge things you really hadn't thought before about your past life until you had lived long enough to compare the past to something else you had lived. Then it is a revelation.

Proust chose to live with as much solitude as possible because of an illness, and closeted himself for the long hours  necessary to write his memoirs; then he would skip out with the chaffeur to feed his observations on the real world for the creative click to take place of making the comparison.  People often read Proust without knowing that, although his descriptions of his social life and intimate friendships are all there.  I found it strangely revealed in the film by Ruiz, that time regained was all in Proust's head by his senses alerting him to memories which he fortunately could reconsider knowing he would die rather early(which,in some sense he luckily did before the Third Reich led to the occupation of Paris, for he was Jewish on his mother's side of the family. He would have died miserably).

The nature of Proust's writing was the revelation of "consciousness" alerted by the senses and, again, had nothing to do with either surrealism or magic realism (although film could produce such a false conclusion because it has to work with images; this does not however mean or signify that Marcel Proust wrote in this way. He writes in passing of how delusions are sometimes caused by defective senses perceiving falsely because of disease in the organism. One then gets the appearance of things leading to false impressions). It is then also not real maravilloso(sic)*  (the spelling of the grad student, correct or incorrect?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 11, 2007, 09:52:22 PM
"...the constrainment of learning how you must write causes the well-springs of memory to disgorge things you really hadn't thought before about your past life until....etc. etc. etc. etc.........."

Ain't that the truth...   :D :D :D


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 11, 2007, 10:36:32 PM
(http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/14810000/14813707.JPG)

Martin—just a brief note.

The version of Los pasos perdidos I’m reading is the 2001 University of Minnesota edition—the same one I believe that nnyhav and beppo are reading. That way we can refer to the same pages in our discussion.

The original Spanish version was published in Mexico City in 1953. May I ask if that’s the book you’re reading?

If so, that would make things easier for us non-Spanish speaking readers—like during our earlier Borges’ translation-discussion of Faulkner’s Wild Palms in Fiction… 

Thanks.




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 12, 2007, 12:10:14 AM
Martin,
I loved your comments upon The Lost Steps. I am waiting to start my reading soon.
The word "Saudades" is a
word for a feeling of longing for something that one is fond of, which is gone, but might return, in a distant future. It often carries a fatalist tone and a repressed knowledge that the object of longing might really never return.
This is what I found in Wikipidia, and although in this site one can find errors, here is a very good link to the origin of this word (which is not easy to translate or find in other languages).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade#Expanded_definition

Many young men and women from my country are traveling to South America before they start their university, and they all visit Brazil. When they come back they use easily the word "Saudades", indicating a part in their body, usually under their chest in order to describe the feeling of Saudades….It is not longing to something or someone, it is a deeper feeling of yearning…

As to Proust, mentioned here. It is true that Proust never left his room in the alley. Writing his contemplations, his memoirs, while outside this room there was a real War, and he never mentioned it in his writing.
Can we judge him for that? I doubt. Ignoring the world around him gave us his magic writing.

I agree with Lhoffman    about music and human voices. The orchestra of voices in a novel is something I find very interesting. If we look deep inside literature texts, we can find different voices uttered by men and women…
Languages are music: some (like Portuguese, French, Spanish and Italian) sounds like a best piece of classical music. Some languages (not to offend anyone, I'll not mention to which I refer...) sounds like a cacophony….
My real hobby in life is learning foreign languages. For me, to speak in another language is like playing the same theme, but in many different variations.
In Portuguese and also in Spanish we say: "Sonhei contigo"  - I dreamed WITH YOU, not upon you.
Whenever I use this expression, I feel the meaning is different; a romantic music enters into the dream….etc. etc.
If we'll discuss once "Blindness" of Saramago, I have a theory about this issue.
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 12, 2007, 05:33:33 PM
(http://www.longitudebooks.com/images/book_large/AMZ18.jpg)

Then there’s the Noonday Press (1989) version—
may I ask which book are you reading, Maddy?

I too have mucho "Saudades"—hoping that both
mringel and s2b will soon get copies of Carpentier’s
The Lost Steps and be able to join our discussion
very soon now…


 ;) ;) ;)





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on December 12, 2007, 07:51:41 PM
Still waiting for the library to contact me...I will contact them today to ask about the status of my 'Pasos Perdidos' loan from the archives...otherwise it will be at least another week before I can event attempt to find it in Australia...I'm enjoying all of your posts ! please continue !


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 13, 2007, 12:41:11 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NFSM48FBL.jpg)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 13, 2007, 12:44:12 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NFSM48FBL.jpg)

And last but not least—especially in this Latin American Literature forum—there’s the Penguin Los pasos perdidos Spanish-language edition (1998)…

…with its provocative cover of a young man seemingly intertwined in the Orinoco jungle with his face covered with hair and his intense blue eyes staring out at the reader. The youth perhaps is a character in the novel—I don’t know yet since I haven’t read it all yet.

Perhaps the youth is waiting for the effete dilettantish fop of a musicologist to shed his weltschmerz for la naturaleza (nature)…to distance himself from the European literary coteries of escapist pre-WWII surrealists who knew nothing of the horrors of Latin American dictatorships and bloody cruel revolutions…

Perhaps the youth is Carpentier himself—the epitome of refined cosmopolitan aesthete decadence…anxious to finally flee from his boredom and contempt for the Parisian bohemian he was becoming or could have become… discovering perhaps rediscovering his own la naturaleza (nature) in all of its magic realism…


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 13, 2007, 04:40:18 PM


(http://www.longitudebooks.com/images/book_large/AMZ18.jpg)

Then there’s the Noonday Press (1989) version—
may I ask which book are you reading, Maddy?

I too have mucho "Saudades"—hoping that both
mringel and s2b will soon get copies of Carpentier’s
The Lost Steps and be able to join our discussion
very soon now…


 ;) ;) ;)







Well, you know how it is,“Other people's obsessions
are more often funny than tragic.”    I was going to say that I was reading Joseph Conrad's NotN but actually I've been reading Proust because I am trying to figure out the comment by miriam mringel,"...Proust never left his room in the alley." and I'm thinking,"What alley?". And that will be that.

We used to have a poet around the nytimes forums by the name of valleinclan,after the poet from Galicia,Ramon del Valle-Inclan(the forum poet was however also a computer tech person and he always asked me that question, What are you reading? which,in your case, I think is such a supercilious comment  when applied to any book forums, "don'tcha know"(quote from Henry Miller).

I hadn't the least doubt your ability to compose bookcovers with  your own face was a novel idea. Something in the expression of the eyes gave it away. If they ever come looking for you for false representation or "hate-posting", (new offense, kind of Orwellian, don'tcha think? Just another one of the computer misdemeanors and felonies of the times),they will  have your wanted poster right at hand. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 13, 2007, 05:01:06 PM
Alejo Carpentier’s Los pasos perdidos


(http://www.longitudebooks.com/images/book_large/AMZ18.jpg)

Then there’s the Noonday Press (1989) version—
may I ask which book are you reading, Maddy?

I too have mucho "Saudades"—hoping that both
mringel and s2b will soon get copies of Carpentier’s
The Lost Steps and be able to join our discussion
very soon now…



I simply asked which version of the book you were reading…

Since you were opining so much about our book choice.

Actually reading the book is the most important thing.

Isn’t that what a book discussion is all about?

That’s how we did it in The New York Times

Why not just read the actual Book, my dear?

Instead of cut-and-pasting from the Internet all the time?

Instead of politicizing books and dropping names all the time?

Always calling me things like “bigot” and denigrating me?

Why not just relax and actually read Faulkner or Carpentier?

Nnyhav, beppo, martin, mringel, s2b and I voted for it.

And we’re reading it too—unlike some people…

I’m asking you politely, my dear—please get off my case.

If you don’t like the Latin Lit book choice—then Adios!!!




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 13, 2007, 05:21:19 PM
pugetopolis,

What made you assume that I was reading the book?  If I want to post on a book or have a passing comment on an author that's my own gd business and not yours. There used to be a perfectly competent person who knew Latin literature, just as there was a perfectly competent person in Mythology and Ancient Literature, and a more than competent person in History, and several in Movies, until the inventiveness would not resist what you refer to as,  "politicizing books ".

Most people in this forum know the politics of the writers discussed, they even had to explain it to you. But you politic by pushing out people you don't want in any forum. So get off of my case! I've had two books in two months that I was unable to discuss because of your politic tactic.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 13, 2007, 05:33:44 PM
Martin,
I loved your comments upon The Lost Steps. I am waiting to start my reading soon.
The word "Saudades" is a
word for a feeling of longing for something that one is fond of, which is gone, but might return, in a distant future. It often carries a fatalist tone and a repressed knowledge that the object of longing might really never return.
This is what I found in Wikipidia, and although in this site one can find errors, here is a very good link to the origin of this word (which is not easy to translate or find in other languages).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade#Expanded_definition

Many young men and women from my country are traveling to South America before they start their university, and they all visit Brazil. When they come back they use easily the word "Saudades", indicating a part in their body, usually under their chest in order to describe the feeling of Saudades….It is not longing to something or someone, it is a deeper feeling of yearning…

As to Proust, mentioned here. It is true that Proust never left his room in the alley. Writing his contemplations, his memoirs, while outside this room there was a real War, and he never mentioned it in his writing.
Can we judge him for that? I doubt. Ignoring the world around him gave us his magic writing.

I agree with Lhoffman    about music and human voices. The orchestra of voices in a novel is something I find very interesting. If we look deep inside literature texts, we can find different voices uttered by men and women…
Languages are music: some (like Portuguese, French, Spanish and Italian) sounds like a best piece of classical music. Some languages (not to offend anyone, I'll not mention to which I refer...) sounds like a cacophony….
My real hobby in life is learning foreign languages. For me, to speak in another language is like playing the same theme, but in many different variations.
In Portuguese and also in Spanish we say: "Sonhei contigo"  - I dreamed WITH YOU, not upon you.
Whenever I use this expression, I feel the meaning is different; a romantic music enters into the dream….etc. etc.
If we'll discuss once "Blindness" of Saramago, I have a theory about this issue.
Miriam


Okay, Mringel, so having gotten that over with, I really do ponder why you chose the expression,"...Proust never left his room in the alley."?  I think perhaps he did comment upon the War to End All Wars, which ended so close to the end of his life, at least he speaks of it in terms of Baron Charlus. Charlus would no doubt have been too old for that war or already dead?;but the military association with him throughout Proust's writing is always there.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 13, 2007, 05:36:22 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NFSM48FBL.jpg)

I hadn't the least doubt your ability to compose bookcovers with your own face was a novel idea. Something in the expression of the eyes gave it away. If they ever come looking for you for false representation or "hate-posting", (new offense, kind of Orwellian, don'tcha think? Just another one of the computer misdemeanors and felonies of the times), they will have your wanted poster right at hand.  

My dear Madupont—you’ve totally flipped out, my dear!!!

The Alejo Carpentier Los pasos perdidos book cover I posted can be found anywhere on the Internet—for example here at Barnes and Noble:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?ean=9780140261936&z=y

Or Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Steps-Perdidos-Penguin-Ediciones/dp/0140261931

It’s getting to be quite laughable—surely you’re just jesting, my dear?

Accusing me now of “computer misdemeanors and felonies”—as well as “false representation or "hate-posting"?

Actually I’m somewhat flattered though...

The boy on the cover of Carpentier's Penguin Spanish edition of Los pasos perdidos is very handsome.

Much more handsome than me—even though I have blue eyes too.


 :D :D :D



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 13, 2007, 05:38:24 PM
Yes, how strange.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 13, 2007, 06:18:12 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NFSM48FBL.jpg)

My dear Madupont—

The only true surprise in my life—is the next surprising accusation you post about me here in Elba.

Now you’re saying I’m posting book covers with my face on them—just to gratify my ego and lust for internet power?

Surely you jest? Surely you’re pulling my leg?

The Penguin Carpentier book cover is right there on Amazon and Barnes & Noble—if you don’t believe it then check out the links.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?ean=9780140261936&z=y

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Steps-Perdidos-Penguin-Ediciones/dp/0140261931

Why are you accusing me of such a crazy thing?

Aren’t you being rather paranoid and overly-suspicious?

I think you should apologize to me for your false accusations: “computer misdemeanors and felonies”—as well as “false representation or "hate-posting"?

The sooner the apology the better, my dear Madupont.




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 13, 2007, 07:49:41 PM
Yes, it's right there along with--Das Reich von dieser Welt. So what?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 13, 2007, 08:19:39 PM
Yes, it's right there along with--Das Reich von dieser Welt. So what?

The protocol is simple—liquidsilver said to address the offending party and ask for an apology first.

I don’t consider calling me a “nazi” to be a kosher apology.

Please try again, my dear Madupont......




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 13, 2007, 09:30:30 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9d/Alejo_Carpentier.jpg)
Alejo Carpentier

I knew this Cuban writer would be controversial.

I knew Los pasos perdidos would be provocative.

That’s why it’s been translated into 20 languages.

And published in more than 14 Spanish editions.

One of those editions is the Penguin 1998 edition.

The controversy has already begun with this edition.

The blue-eyed boy on the cover has started it.

Why is the youth blue-eyed there on the cover?

Shouldn’t he be brown-eyed some have asked.

I don’t know—I didn’t pick the Penguin cover.

But already fascism has reared its ugly head.

Apparently some people don’t like blue-eyed Hispanics.

I knew this novel and author would be controversial.

That’s why I voted for it and want to read it.

Martin, nnyhav, mringel, s2b are reading it too.

I expect it to be a very lively discussion.

Timothy Brennan in his introduction calls it:

“Carpentier’s most heralded novel.”

André Rousseau wrote in Le Figaro Littérataire:

The Lost Steps is the greatest novel to have appeared in Latin America in our time.”

Gabriel José de la Concordia García Márquez learned from it.

And I want to learn too…


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 14, 2007, 03:26:04 AM

Why the quote from Deuteronimus at the beginning?


Martin,

You asked about the Deuteronomy quote at the beginning of Chapter One of Los pasos perdidos.

And thy heaven that is over thy
head shall be brass, and the earth
that is under thee shall be iron.
—Deuteronomy xxviii, 23

The Deuteronomy quote seems to signify the mental and spiritual condition of the bored dried-up protagonist—with the sky above as dry as brass and the land below hard and dried-up as iron.   

Heaven … brass … earth … iron—these are strong Oriental figures used to describe the effects of long-continued drought.

The protagonist is like "Palestine" in the Bible which in this instance is wholly incapable of cultivation—his creativity is gone and he’s lifeless.

The journey up the river into the moist Ecuadorian rainforest is just the opposite situation = la naturaleza (nature)…

On a more personal level the protagonist = Carpentrier trying to distance himself from the dried-up lifeless European literary coteries of escapist pre-WWII surrealists who know nothing of the marvelous baroque beauty of the jungle rainforest which he journeys into...

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/28-23.htm


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 14, 2007, 03:28:52 AM
Los pasos perdidos  

The delicacy and beauty of Carpentier’s prose:

Page 165—“What amazed me most was the inexhaustible mimetism of virgin nature. Everything here seemed something else, thus creating a world of appearances that concealed reality, casting doubt on many truths. The alligators lurking in the depths of swamps, motionless, jaws ready, seemed rotten, scale-covered logs. The vines seemed snakes, the snakes vines when their skins did not simulate the grains of precious woods, their eyes the markings of moth wings, their scales those of the pineapple or coral rings.”   

Page 167—“Everything lied, in that unending shift of appearances and imitations, in that baroque proliferation of lianas, where the playful howling monkeys suddenly shocked the foliage with their mischief, their indecencies, and their mowing, like overgrown children with five hands.

Alejo Carpenter, Los pasos perdidos, Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 2001.   



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on December 14, 2007, 12:06:31 PM
I have no idea what that Bible quote means, or how Carpentier is using it but it should be remembered that the Jews were talented smiths and that iron was much more valuable than brass and more current. 

Possibly in smelting, brass gave up more vapor than iron, but the first place I would look symbolically at the mention of iron would be to strength, power, sharpness.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 14, 2007, 12:39:50 PM
I have no idea what that Bible quote means, or how Carpentier is using it but it should be remembered that the Jews were talented smiths and that iron was much more valuable than brass and more current. 
Possibly in smelting, brass gave up more vapor than iron, but the first place I would look symbolically at the mention of iron would be to strength, power, sharpness.

John

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/28-23.htm

I'm no Biblical scholar either, but from what I've read of The Lost Steps so far the Deuteromomy quote seems to point toward the "steps" as something lost and found, i.e. the dried-up desiccated milieu before the river journey and the slow realization the "young" musicologist goes through. I say "young" because I assumed he was older but if indeed the musicologist is a disillusioned young man then the youth on the cover of the Penguin Spanish-language version could be the young "blue-eyed" musicologist himself portrayed with hair growing from his face in a jungle background?

I've asked a SF rare book dealer to find out the artist's name on the 1998 Penguin cover just out of curiousity since it's caused such a flap so early in the discussion. I did the same with Faulkner's first edition cover of The Sound and the Fury and came up with some interesting results.

I defer to your interpretation since you're the Jung/Campbell/Myth expert, but here is the complete text from the Deuteronomy link I quoted from:

<< Deuteronomy 28:23 >>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"The heaven which is over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you, iron.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The sky above will look like bronze, and the ground below will be as hard as iron.

King James Bible
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

American Standard Version
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

Bible in Basic English
And the heaven over your heads will be brass, and the earth under you hard as iron.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Be the heaven, that is over thee, of brass: and the ground thou treadest on, of iron.

Darby Bible Translation
And thy heavens which are over thy head shall be brass, and the earth which is under thee, iron.

English Revised Version
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

Jewish Publication Society Tanakh
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

Webster's Bible Translation
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

World English Bible
Your sky that is over your head shall be brass, and the earth that is under you shall be iron.

Young's Literal Translation
And thy heavens which are over thy head have been brass, and the earth which is under thee iron;

Deuteronomy 28:22 "The LORD will smite you with consumption and with fever and with inflammation and with fiery heat and with the sword and with blight and with mildew, and they will pursue you until you perish.
Deuteronomy 28:24 "The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed. (NASB ©1995)

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

The language here is remarkable: `Thy heaven;' that part of the atmosphere which was over judea, instead of being replenished with aqueous vapours, should become, with respect to moisture, like brass: and consequently their land would become as hard as iron, and wholly incapable of cultivation; while the clouds might give showers in abundance, and the earth be moist and fruitful in other regions. Le 26:19 1Ki 17:1 18:2 Jer 14:1-6 Am 4:7

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Beneath Brass Bronze Earth Hard Head Heads Heaven Heavens Iron Sky

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Beneath Brass Bronze Earth Hard Head Heads Heaven Heavens Iron Sky

Geneva Study Bible
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be {k} brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

(k) It will give you no more moisture than if it were of brass.

Wesley's Notes

28:23 Brass - Like brass, hard and dry, and shut up from giving rain. Iron - Hard and chapt and barren.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

23. heaven … brass … earth … iron—strong Oriental figures used to describe the effects of long-continued drought. This want of regular and seasonable rain is allowed by the most intelligent observers to be one great cause of the present sterility of Palestine.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

28:15-44 If we do not keep God's commandments, we not only come short of the blessing promised, but we lay ourselves under the curse, which includes all misery, as the blessing all happiness. Observe the justice of this curse. It is not a curse causeless, or for some light cause. The extent and power of this curse. Wherever the sinner goes, the curse of God follows; wherever he is, it rests upon him. Whatever he has is under a curse. All his enjoyments are made bitter; he cannot take any true comfort in them, for the wrath of God mixes itself with them. Many judgments are here stated, which would be the fruits of the curse, and with which God would punish the people of the Jews, for their apostacy and disobedience. We may observe the fulfilling of these threatenings in their present state. To complete their misery, it is threatened that by these troubles they should be bereaved of all comfort and hope, and left to utter despair. Those who walk by sight, and not by faith, are in danger of losing reason itself, when every thing about them looks frightful.

 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 14, 2007, 02:22:03 PM
Desiccated milieu

Los pasos perdidos

Page 4—“I stepped out of the light just in time, for the hunter’s shot sounded and a bird fell to the stage from the second drop… The laces of her costume for the climax had grown dingy, the black taffeta of the dance scene had lost the stiffness that had made it rustle like a whorl of dry leaves at every curtsy.”

Page 4—“Even the room’s walls looked bedraggle, with repeated traces of fingermarks in the same place, and revealed their long association with make-up, withered flowers, and disguise.”

Page 5—“It would have taken the genius of a tragedienne such as the world had never seen for Ruth to rid herself of the parasite that was sucking her blood…”

Page 5—“The day after one of them had died…something of the air of a daguerreotype…”

Page 8—“stirring a breeze that smelled of dust and old wood.”

Page 11—“From the asphalt pavement rose a bluish haze of gasoline laced with acrid smells from garbage cans in courts where an occasional panting dog lay like a skinned rabbit, trying to find a cool spot on the hot floor.”

Page 19—“After we had drained the hours of amorous anarchy…”

Page 19—“his emergence on a planet still bristling with gigantic skeletons…”

Page 21—“I could hear my own voice echoing with such lying resonance from the copper of the gongs that I completely bogged down in the middle of an unforgivable gaffe in organographic terminology…”

Page 24—“I seized the opportunity to run away. I wanted a drink. The only thing that interested me at the moment was to get to a near-by bar whose walls were covered with pictures of race horses.”






Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 14, 2007, 02:40:31 PM
Dear friends,
I looked at the quoted sentences from Deuteronomy xxviii and it is not that simple as it is.
This is a chapter which deals with the blessing and cursing caused by believing or not believing in God.
It refers to the Israeli people, not to the land…
The phrases concerning the blessing are shorter than the sentences dealing with curse.
The first half of the sentences of cursing is contradictory to the blessing sentences. The second half is in contrary to another chapter in Deuteronomy (vii-viii).
Moses is promising the people that if they'll obey God's will they will be blessed with miracles, also when they'll arrive to the holy land.
If not, they will not return to the bad situation they were in Egypt.
Deuteronomy is privileged to Joshyahu, a later king of Yehuda, and not to Moses and some Christians say that because Jews did not accept Jesus, they received the curse that Moses gave them….

Well, from what I read until now in Carpentier, and it is not a deep reading, I found out that he uses a lot the holy book. .Many  writers of this decade have a profound knowledge of the bible and the New Testament. Some of them use their knowledge in a very ironic way, like Saramago did in "The gospel according to Jesus Christ". Decelerating they are communists, atheist etc. never convinced me enough… you cannot deny your education, your mentality and your culture.

After reading The Lost Steps (which has been shipped to me 2 days ago), I hope to be clever enough to understand why Carpentier quoted the above sentences from Deuteronomy xxviii, 23
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on December 14, 2007, 04:14:31 PM
Let me just add, to stir the pot.  The Egyptian word for iron is something like "heaven sent" as is the Babylonian (verify please Mir) and in the seven alchemical stages between earth and the sun, Mars is Iron, Venus copper, Mercury tin.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 15, 2007, 01:55:26 AM
John,
good to see you here.
Unfortunately, I do not speak any dialect of Arabic, so I cannot give you an answer if the word iron means "heaven sent".
You wrote in your previous message that Jews were talented in iron smithing.
This is not correct, as the fact is that Philistines (Plishtim) long held a monopoly on iron smithing, a skill they create and developed, knowing how to put more heat in the ovens…
This fact is the result of their superiority in the first war between them and the Israelis of that time. In order to win a battle against the Philistines the Israelis leaders used new strategies.
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 15, 2007, 02:22:58 AM
Perhaps the meaning of the Deuteronomy quote will come out as we read further into the text. As whiskeypriest said over in The NYTimes book group: “Context, context, context.”   


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on December 15, 2007, 10:51:53 AM
puge:

I agree with your notion of wet and dry.  What interested me was how brass and iron would relate.

mir:

Yes.  I have the bad habit of combining the heritage of the people of the region, but if you put Jewish metallurgy into Google you'll get a ton of responses.  Theyd learned a lot of stuff in Babylon.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 15, 2007, 11:05:35 AM

Some of them use their knowledge in a very ironic way, like Saramago did in "The gospel according to Jesus Christ".  


“The narrator is slightly split, as if, like Saramago’s Ricardo Reis, he were always just on the verge of realizing he is the figment of someone else’s imagination.”—Fernando Eberstadt, “The Unexpected Fantasist,” NYTimes 8/26/2007

Yes, mringel—I think you’re on the right track about Carpentier’s use of the Deuteronomy quote in an ironic sense.

Both Saramago and Carpentier seem to me to be ironic pessimists who like to use unreliable narrators to satirize both religion and politics:  

“The objectivity of the narrator is a modern invention, we need only reflect that our Lord God didn’t want it in his book.”

As well as with Orwellian pronunciamentos like:

“I’m not delivering any news if I tell you the world is a piece of hell for millions of people,” Saramago said to me. “There are always a few who manage to find a way out, humans are capable of the best as well as the worst, but you can’t change human destiny. We live in a dark age, when freedoms are diminishing, when there is no space for criticism, when totalitarianism — the totalitarianism of multinational corporations, of the marketplace — no longer even needs an ideology, and religious intolerance is on the rise. Orwell’s ‘1984’ is already here.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/magazine/26saramago-t.html?pagewanted=6&_r=1

It seems to me that Carpentier in Los pasos perdidos had pre-WWII decadence in mind—while Saramago opened the POMO door wide open with such subversive works as The History of the Siege of Lisbon which ingeniously turns history completely upside-down…

The thought occurred to me that Carpentier’s protagonist in Los pasos perdidos could be the basis for Saramago’s “Reis”—the same kind of absurdist “man without qualities” in his novel The Year of the Death of Ricardo Reis?

Both characters seem on the verge of realizing they're figments of someone else’s imagination...

Funny, I feel that way myself lately watching Fox-News and the 2008 Election zoo taking place.  :D :D :D





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 15, 2007, 01:24:44 PM
John,
You are right.
If you Google you can find different versions to the same word or sentence.
The Bible is only a very good example of how many interpretations are to every sentence.
'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' as much as reading is...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 15, 2007, 01:55:45 PM
Puge,
You wrote:
"Both Saramago and Carpentier seem to me to be ironic pessimists who like to use unreliable narrators to satirize both religion and politics"Saramago is a pessimist. He declares of being such a person. I am not sure we can say that he uses an unreliable narrator. In my opinion and after reading all his novels, journals etc. I think he is one of the cleverest writers I've met, and he pretends, sometimes, that the narrator is unreliable, while he himself, the real writer, is always in the text. This is one of his techniques which serve his irony notions and confuse his readers.

Than you write:

"It seems to me that Carpentier in Los pasos perdidos had pre-WWII decadence in mind—while Saramago opened the POMO door wide open with such subversive works as The History of the Siege of Lisbon which ingeniously turns history completely upside-down…
Since I know so little of Carpentier, I can only agree with what you said about Saramago's The History of the Siege of Lisbon, which is a great book and besides turning history upside down, it is an ars-poetic book, dealing with how a writer describes his writing.

And more:
"The thought occurred to me that Carpentier’s protagonist in Los pasos perdidos could be the basis for Saramago’s “Reis”—the same kind of absurdist “man without qualities” in his novel The Year of the Death of Ricardo Reis?"  
I am quite sure Saramago read Carpentier, as he used to read hundreds of books before he started to write novels. As a Portuguese, he did not have any problem of reading Spanish, even without studying the language.
But, Ricardo Reis is not Satamago's invention. It is Fernando Pessoa's heteronym, one of 72 others. What Saramago did in this wonderful book is a genius use of Pessoa's writing, Ricardo Reis odes, (Pessoa in a figment).
Tabucci, the Italian writer wrote a small book (small by all means), with the title: "The three last days of Fernando Pessoa". Using the letter Pessoa wrote to his friend describing how the heteronyms came into his mind.  The book is interesting, but not original.
Saramago chose Reis as his protagonist and confronted him with Pessoa in a poetic book, where sentences from the odes of Reis are in between prose sentences…
Reis is a man who looks at the world from distance… (Quote from one of Reis poems...)
"Man without qualities", right! But in a very different way of looking at such a man than what Musil did in his book and Saramago says that Musil is one the writers who influenced his writing… (Did you read this book?)
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 15, 2007, 05:48:36 PM
(http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/jpg/es-pilar390.jpg)

Pilar del Rio

“If I’d died before I met you, Pilar,
I’d have died feeling much older.”
—José Saramago

pilar del rio serves coffee in demitasses
she’s elegant from seville
she’s saramago’s second wife—
nearly 30 years younger than him
she meets him in the mid-’80s—
lecturing in lisbon…
del rio’s e-mail avatar “blimunda”—
from baltasar and blimunda
a novel…


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 15, 2007, 07:25:25 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NFSM48FBL.jpg)

The Accidental Fantasist

I’m an accidental fantasist…

Or “fabulist” as nnyhav would perhaps say.

I’m entering Latin Literature thru the backdoor—thru Borges’
translation of Faulkner’s Wild Palms. The way Borges opened up the idea of time—thanks to that earlier seminal  graduate student essay nnyhav linked us to here in the Latin Lit forum—in Wild Palms with  the possibility of going beyond Faulkner into alternate fabulist worlds is the reason I’m here.

The influence of Faulkner on Fabulist Latino writers is great—but what Borges, Carpentier, Marquez and company did with Faulkner is what interests me. Please see our Faulkner discussion in Fiction.

The same with Fabulist film directors such as del Toro (Pan’s Labyrinth), Amenábar (The Others) and Buñuel (Los olvidados). The reason I started the Movie Club forum was to study de lo real maravilloso cinematically—as well as the Weimar magicians Pabst and Fritz Lang...   

I wanted to ground myself as a fabulist poet first with Borges then Carpentier. I had already been exposed to Cuban Lit at LSU in the early Sixties after the Revolution with the influx of young Cubans on campus. The sons of exiled doctors, lawyers and engineers became my friends in the dormitories and classes...

For some reason the Latino imagination is striking a chord with me now again—perhaps because Latin American Literature thru writers like Isabel Allende have used novels like The House of Spirits to exorcise the ghosts of the Pinochet dictatorship in Chile.

Every country has its fascist ghosts like Nixon, Peron and Pinochet. They learn from their mistakes and always get better the next time. The failure of the Left to recognize Graham Greene’s the new Ministry of Fear in all its new military-industrial-intelligence complexification is what makes José Saramago shake his head today:

“Salazar died in 1970, and his successor, Marcelo Caetano, proved incapable of liberalizing a regime that was preposterously obsolete. Portugal was the poorest nation in Western Europe — a nation whose chief exports were cork, sardines and cheap labor. Yet for 13 years, it was mired in three simultaneous wars halfway around the world. These wars, waged against independence movements in its African colonies of Angola, Mozambique and Guinea-Bissau, consumed more than 40 percent of the national budget. The conflicts were nasty, bloody and increasingly unpopular at home.”—Fernando Eberstadt, “The Unexpected Fantasist,” NYTimes 8/26/2007

Sound familiar? The irony being the American Empire started off much richer than Portugal—but now we’re bankrupt… Ho-hum—just 40 percent of a national budget? Billions of dollars—it boggles the human imagination.

What about a writer's imagination? One might ask if one were a Fantasist writer or poet—is there a way out of this Nightmare?

Is there perhaps time for one last Saramago novel—one last Fantasist parable for this nightmarish neo-nincompoop scenario we find ourselves in today?

I doubt it—but we’ll see…





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 15, 2007, 09:42:20 PM
Thank you, mringel, for your helpful comments.

I plan to read Saramago in depth as soon as I finish reading Carpentier.

I found the NYTimes article I quoted very helpful in pointing the way to this next writer.

Obviously Saramago is a very important writer at this time...




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on December 15, 2007, 10:06:26 PM
mir  and puge

I love you and I hope I can get a copy of this book soon.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 15, 2007, 10:40:39 PM
Great, John.

I enjoyed our past Beowulf and Huizinga discussions very much.

I look forward to your Carpentier thoughts soon.

Happy holidays and happy reading to you as well.

Puget


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 16, 2007, 11:24:11 AM
Thank you John, it will be a great pleasure to have you in this discussion.

Puge,
I hope that after Carpentier, we'll vote for "blindness" of Saramago.
click on Google and you'll find better photos of Pilar.
I saw her 3 years ago in Coimbra,Portugal, when I was invited to the ceremony in which  Saramago got a Doctor of honour from Coimbra university.
She is a beautiful woman and S. dedicated many of his books to her.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 16, 2007, 12:57:54 PM
(http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/jpg/es-pilar390.jpg)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on December 16, 2007, 06:39:09 PM
Finished Los pasos perdidos yesterday. First thought after - wish I could do that. Makes me want to learn about architecture and listen to more classical music and learn more the names of plants and trees and all those lovely musical expressions that give the reading a rich poetic quality.
     


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 16, 2007, 11:40:10 PM
re Deut. 28....The remarks made by Mringel are a good start, the idea of blessing and curses counterbalancing one another.  But it is also important to remember that this text was spoken by Moses on the occasion of the Israelites entering the promised land. 

I very much liked the scene late in the book where the narrator is offered a guitar in lieu of a music.  Carpentier had me sucked into the whole otherworldly quality of his story, then hit me over the head with a dose of pure reality.  I laughed out loud after reading this paragraph...too many music parents over the years....

But on my remark on Proust earlier in the week:  I wasn't referring to the idea of magical realism at all.  I don't find that in Proust.  Rather, this novel and Proust's Lost Time seem to have in common the ideas of timelessness, the weight of memory and the function and meaning of music.  The time element is particulary interesting to me because Carpentier makes a point of noting the calendar dates throughout the book.  The sense of timelessness is revealed in the narrator's discoveries as he progresses into the lost world.  The priest reads from an ancient text while paper and books rot away in the damp air.  When the narrator enters the city he feels that he has stepped into Genesis, the beginning of all.  Throughout the novel, there is the sense that timelessness is superior to back there.  Time becomes a place more than a mere passing of the minutes, hours, days of one's life.

The narrator's journey is interesting also apart from the sense of timelessness and his development of the musical theme.  Quite often as I was reading the question seemed to be:  What does it mean to be human? 

John....I hope you are able to get this, I think you will like it quite a bit.  There is a feel about it of "Deep is the well of the past...."


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 16, 2007, 11:45:16 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NFSM48FBL.jpg)





The "what does it mean to be human/where does humanity begin" aspect is illustrated quite nicely on this cover.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on December 17, 2007, 02:51:57 AM
I was only once in New York and it may surprise you, Beppo and you, Martin: I did not like it at all.
People say that NY is such a city that you like or don't like.
I don't feel at ease in big cities. Madrid is too big for me, too dramatic, while Barcelona is a city I could live in.
Well, Lisbon was and will be my favorite city. A small beautiful city, merged with old and new, water, hills, narrow alleys, cafes every 5 steps, old bookshops. A mystery and welcoming feeling at the same time.
When I land in Lisbon airport (something I did so many times), I feel I just came home, as if I never leaved the place.
It is probably true that my ancestors were portugueses...if not, it would be difficult to explain this feeling.
Miriam

Visited Barcelona about 2/3 years ago. Train from the airport - our first sighting of Barcelona was walking up the stairs from the subway straight onto La Rambla - in a way, thinking about this, I wish we'd entered New York that way and headed straight up the stairs onto somewhere like 42nd street. As with other cities it's good to have visited these places - apart from anything it allows for a directional sense of things when mentioned in books, for example (And films..)

We should be visiting Lisbon next year. It's on the horizon...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 17, 2007, 04:44:08 AM
Puge,
Yes, this is the photo of Pilar and Saramago I reffered to.
In an hour I'll be on the train in order to arrive to the north of my country, where I'll talk before literature teachers (for around 3 hours!!!) about "Blindness" by Saramago.
I prepared a short PPT in which I planted pictures and pieces of video of Saramago and about this author.
It is, for me a great joy to talk about this great writer and "Blindness" is a book one can talk about for hours.
As it is also a book of the interpretation....

Beppo,
I loved your comment about Carpentier.
I hope my English will allow me to enjoy and understand every nuance of this book.
Lisbon - a good horizon!!! I plan to be there also on May or June 2008.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on December 17, 2007, 08:53:58 AM
you are all just killing me here  ;)  :-\  I'm the one unable to get a copy of Los Pasos Perdidos, however, I'm off to the land downunder in just a few days, and one of the bookstores there says they can get a copy...

I concur, after LPP, comes Blindness...I know I can get that here at 1deg15min  :)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 17, 2007, 10:16:19 AM

Blindness

''Why did we become blind, I don't know, perhaps one day we'll find out, Do you want me to tell you what I think, Yes, do, I don't think we did go blind, I think we are blind, Blind but seeing, Blind people who can see, but do not see.''

''The blind man and the blind woman were now resting, apart, the one lying beside the other, but they were still holding hands, they were young, perhaps even lovers who had gone to the cinema and turned blind there, or perhaps some miraculous coincidence brought them together in this place, and, this being the case, how did they recognize each other, good heavens, by their voices, of course, it is not only the voice of blood that needs no eyes, love, which people say is blind, also has a voice of its own.''

http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/04/reviews/981004.04millert.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

(José Saramago, Blindness, translated by Giovanni Pontiero,
New York: Harcourt Brace, 1998)




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 17, 2007, 10:20:05 AM

Throughout the novel, there is the sense that timelessness is superior to back there. Time becomes a place more than a mere passing of the minutes, hours, days of one's life.

The narrator's journey is interesting also apart from the sense of timelessness and his development of the musical theme.  Quite often as I was reading the question seemed to be:  What does it mean to be human? 


Time was important in Wild Palms in terms of defining the characters of the two stories—with Borges it seems to me opening up the possibility in his translation of alternate Fabulist / Fantasist definitions of what it means to be human.

Carpentier uses the journey motif like Faulkner as a sort of linear approach to something that is portrayed as atemporal and nonlinear. Which to me is Mother Nature with all her various aesthetic synchronicities happening at once:

Page 165—“What amazed me most was the inexhaustible mimetism of virgin nature. Everything here seemed something else, thus creating a world of appearances that concealed reality, casting doubt on many truths. The alligators lurking in the depths of swamps, motionless, jaws ready, seemed rotten, scale-covered logs. The vines seemed snakes, the snakes vines when their skins did not simulate the grains of precious woods, their eyes the markings of moth wings, their scales those of the pineapple or coral rings.”

What does it mean to be human in the midst of such “inexhaustible mimetism of virgin nature”?

Is that where the musicologist is journeying to?

Not a journey into a Heart of Darkness—but a journey out of Saramago Blindness?

Is that why the young man on the cover is becoming more hirsute?
 

 :D :D :D



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 17, 2007, 10:42:08 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NFSM48FBL.jpg)

The "what does it mean to be human/where does humanity begin" aspect is illustrated quite nicely on this cover.

What does it mean to become more hirsute

The young man’s face with fine hair growing out of it everywhere makes it look like he’s either returning to virgin nature or coming out of virgin nature which makes one ask oneself your question—"what does it mean to be human/where does humanity begin?" 

Which to me is the same question that Said’s Orientalism brought up. That question involved our discussion about “The Snake Charmer” on the cover in terms of how self-reflexive the painter Gérome was when portraying colonialism / postcolonialism values?

In other words how do we represent being human in complex and different situations?

Postcolonial / postmodern writers—are they reliable narrators?

Fabulist / fantasist writers—are they any better?

Not because of their reliability—but the reverse




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 17, 2007, 01:58:18 PM
Now you see, I didn't see the character on the cover as being hirstute.  I saw him as being covered with sod and roots, becoming part of the earth and of time going all the way back to the beginning.  A bit of the idea of "saudade" that Martin mentioned and the definition provided by Mringel via Wikki and related to a yearning for the old ways, old days, things past.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on December 17, 2007, 10:17:18 PM
Throughout the novel, there is the sense that timelessness is superior to back there. Time becomes a place more than a mere passing of the minutes, hours, days of one's life.

The narrator's journey is interesting also apart from the sense of timelessness and his development of the musical theme.  Quite often as I was reading the question seemed to be:  What does it mean to be human? 

Time was important in Wild Palms in terms of defining the characters of the two stories—with Borges it seems to me opening up the possibility in his translation of alternate Fabulist / Fantasist definitions of what it means to be human.

Carpentier uses the journey motif like Faulkner as a sort of linear approach to something that is portrayed as atemporal and nonlinear. Which to me is Mother Nature with all her various aesthetic synchronicities happening at once:

Page 165—“What amazed me most was the inexhaustible mimetism of virgin nature. Everything here seemed something else, thus creating a world of appearances that concealed reality, casting doubt on many truths. The alligators lurking in the depths of swamps, motionless, jaws ready, seemed rotten, scale-covered logs. The vines seemed snakes, the snakes vines when their skins did not simulate the grains of precious woods, their eyes the markings of moth wings, their scales those of the pineapple or coral rings.”

What does it mean to be human in the midst of such “inexhaustible mimetism of virgin nature”?

Is that where the musicologist is journeying to?

Not a journey into a Heart of Darkness—but a journey out of Saramago Blindness?

Is that why the young man on the cover is becoming more hirsute?
 

 :D :D :D

Nabokov was fascinated by mimicry (particularly in lepidoptera but more generally as well); I also stumbled on the following this past weekend, by another of my favorite authors:

" November 12, 1945.-- Under the title La Vie des sauterelles, L. Chopard has published an excellent book that is in fact a study of the mores of the Orthoptera. No doubt that latter word would have frightened the reader if it had been put on the cover, and would have driven away potential buyers just as surely as the praying mantis striking what is known as the 'spectral attitude'. Praying mantises are indeed members of the order Orthoptera, along with cockroaches, grasshoppers, crickets, locusts, stick-insects, and earwigs. Each of these families of insects presents some curious or bizarre trait that might in itself serve as the foundation of a philosophy.
" Among their strange ways, the most singular are obviously those that fall under the rubric of 'mimicry'. It is in fact among the Orthoptera, and especially among stick-insects, that we find the most astounding examples of this 'imitation' of their surroundings. Regular visitors to the vivarium at the Jardin des Plantes [cf Nab's ape, Rilke's panther] are already familiar with the Phyllia, which mimic leaves in both shape and color, right down to the fibrous ribs. Their eggs resemble seeds. But certain leaf grasshoppers go them one better in terms of mimesis: their shapes mimic not simply leaves, but even in some cases leaves gnawed on by a caterpillar, including the sort of lacework created by the ribs that the caterpillar found too tough to eat. Among other things, their wings can resemble leaves under attack by mildew, in various stages of decomposition. Finally, one species even imitates the little black dots formed by the eggs of a devouring larva on the leaf that it mimics, along with lines similar to the 'tunnels' dug by larva inside the leaves of the tree on which the imitating grasshopper lives. Other grasshoppers, which imitate a piece of bark, take their obsession with verisimilitude so far as to include cracks revealing the bare wood underneath.
[...]
" No satisfactory interpretation of these facts have been put forward to date, particularly concerning the [above]. It's been proven that birds and lizards have no difficulty recognizing the leaf-insects; it's even been claimed that these leaf-insects go so far as to gnaw on each other. It seems impossible, too, to come up with an 'evolutionary' explanation. It is difficult to imagine the process that might lead grasshoppers to strive, generation after generation, to imitate a leaf gnawed by a larva that's left its eggs nearby. One desparate biologist has invoked the infraconsciousness of these little beasts, which strikes me as going off the deep end, butterfly net in hand."
-- Raymond Queneau, from Letters, Numbers, Forms, trans Jordan Stump

For myself, parody is the sincerest form of butterfly.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 18, 2007, 05:27:42 PM
I´ve been busy selling just like the*gitano* of my avatar. Sales in Arg. have grown in my line 40% ,in spite of the Reina Cristina K. ::)

HOFFMAN,I think what I called Proustian in TLS is the timelssness.Like a sort of Bergsonian durée.

MADDIE, loved the description of your place in Carmen´s house. Maybe the bamboo good luck plant was a seed Toussaints carried in his pocket. Toussaints means All Hallows -yeah,like Halloween- in Sp.it´s Santos and many Italians use the name Santo and Santino.

MIRIAM,PUGET,JOHN60,BEPPO, loved the posts between all of you they are so rich (*pithy* is the Sussman word for it,learned it from him)

In my Sp. version the bible quotation says "metal" not brass.

PUGET, I see by your quotations -post 689- that the English translation sounds as beautiful as the Sp. version.

I think the cover with the hairy faced guy with blue eyes shows the exact meaning of the struggle betweem civilization and *barbarie*.

How on earth do you say *barbarie* in English?

MIRIAM:
"The famous saudade of the Portuguese is a vague and constant desire for something that does not and probably cannot exist, for something other than the present, a turning towards the past or towards the future; not an active discontent or poignant sadness but an indolent dreaming wistfulness...",

what a perfect explanation of *saudades*, this time wikipedia hit the nail.

S2B, i´m halfway down the book so we´ll be sort of together in analyzing and sharing our super-knowledge  ::) of the tongue of Cervantes  ::)

ASAP , more comments on the book but right now I have to tun off to my spinning(*) class so that during the holidays i can eat like a gargantuan pig.

(*) spinning on a byke not this spinning:

http://www.joyofhandspinning.com/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 18, 2007, 08:59:26 PM
Martin...I like that idea, Bergsonian Duree.  Do you know that Bergson married Proust's cousin Louise?  It is quite possible that the two spent much time discussing Bergson's theories of time and evolution and that these discussions led to Proust's creation of Recherche. 

Bergson had the interesting view of evolution as of an arc rather than as lineal.  Evolution leads first to progress in the species, but eventually arcs or circles back to the beginning.  There was something of this idea in TLS and the question of who was the more developed species.  Was it the New York artistes and architects who created art based on memory without meaning or the race to be found in the jungle that resembled the Genesis of it all and who were perhaps only discovering ritual and symbolism?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on December 18, 2007, 11:53:23 PM
PreEnglishPub review from Publishers Weekly:

Nazi Literature in the Americas Roberto Bolaño, trans. from the Spanish by Chris Andrews. New Directions, $23.95 (280p) ISBN 978-0-8112-1705-7

The title chosen by Bolaño (1953–2003) for this slim, fake encyclopedia is not wholly tongue-in-cheek: given the very real presence of former (and not-so-former) Nazis in Latin America following WWII, this book, despite being fiction, still had j’accuse-like power when first published in 1996. The poets described herein, though invented, seem—even at their most absurd—plausible, which is the secret to this sly book’s devastating effect. And as one proceeds from an entry on Edelmira Thompson de Mendiluce (“In high spirits, Edelmira asked for the Führer’s advice: which would be the most appropriate school for her sons?”) to one on Carlos Ramírez Hoffman (“His passage through literature left a trail of blood and several questions posed by a mute”), it becomes clear that there is a single witness to all of these terrible figures, one who has spent time in one of Pinochet’s prisons and is bent on coolly totting up the crimes of fascism’s literary perpetrators. Some readers will recognize figures and episodes from Bolaño’s other books (including The Savage Detectives and Distant Star). The wild inventiveness of Bolaño’s evocations places them squarely in the realm of Borges—another writer who draws enormous power from the movement between the fictive and the real. (Feb.)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 19, 2007, 01:11:57 AM
Martinbeck3, re:#716

"and many Italians use the name Santo and Santino."    You bet; he also came to Carmen's house often. He was the plumber, his soul presented itself in the mode we remember best from Il Postino (that film about the postman who brought the mail to the house of the poet in exile).

Just the other side of the undeveloped garden and past the garage was another driveway and hill to a house where there was a second Carmen whom I visited from time to time. An older woman, who had been a teacher of some kind, now lived a very religious routine, to Mass each morning at St.Paul's to which she walked or pushed her bicycle in a frankly clerical sort of outfit, all in brown with the broad-brim hat of senior seminary graduates, she took her long strapped shoulder bag around her neck and worn toward the front of her body to protect the contents of the bag and yet it was as much like a scapular meant to protect her.  Immediately following her prayers in attendance at Mass, she had her daily swim at the YWCA, dried off and walked back home again. She was a Cuban exile of mixed Irish and Cuban descent.

I visited her when I was having problems with the first Carmen who apparently had a obsessive curiosity about other women and began mistakenly relating to me as if I could have been  her daughter, after reminiscing to me about this girl who would have had to be quite a bit younger than I was. I began to understand that was a way to relate for a landlady who always inappropriately dealt with what landladies must take care of to retain their tenants.

Carmen from Astoria,Queens usually brought a bottle of wine home with her when she left work for the day, and she drank it as her "recreation" although it combined somewhat dramatically(according to the neighbors) with her prescribed dosage of lithium salts which more usually control bi-polar disorder of mania and depression.  She not only pounded on their doors, the neighbors' doors, when they were having a meeting of borough officials to which she would demand entrance (while they sat quietly and pretended they were not there), then she would drive to borough hall next day and start something up on the spot. How were they supposed to relate to this?


"How on earth do you say *barbarie* in English?"  I think you say,"barbarism", or "barbarity" (depending on how poetic you want to make the contrast to civility sound)?

I also think that what you suggest of "saudades" is a yearning. Whether directed to the past, that can not be attained presently, or desiring the immediacy of the future possibility and fulfillment.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 19, 2007, 07:00:52 AM
Four Views Los pasos perdidos
—for Alejo Carpentier


(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/7a1/a17/7a1a17f8-5c21-432a-9873-98123cf3c718) (http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/a51/4ac/a514acab-3770-45b8-9d06-cb63f66a04ce)
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/4a6/8ec/4a68ec69-d88e-4760-817c-31b946f544cc) (http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/3e0/2d5/3e02d513-19bb-4b76-ae4b-399ea14a59db)

For myself, parody is the sincerest form of butterfly.

“Among the leading reasons for which Nabokov undermines his protagonist Hermann as an artist, reducing his aspirations to madness, is a kind of authorial disgust at Hermann's failure to be a successful writer and a refined intertextualist. Though Hermann claims that he has read more than a thousand books, he is not able to rework them creatively into meaningful references in his own writings. Nabokov uses his character's failure as an intertextualist to show that a writer who is unable to use literary tradition for his own purposes is doomed to fall out of this tradition. Intertextuality becomes a complex device that helps Nabokov destroy a character incapable of weaving meaningful allusive structures into his own writings. Hermann cannot go beyond the mimetic principle of art, and Nabokov punishes him by gradually developing in his protagonist a peculiar "multiple personality disorder" which brings together the voices of multifarious literary characters who eventually destroy Hermann's own identity.”

—Galina Patterson, “Nabokov's use of Dostoevski: Developing Goliadkin "symptoms" in Hermann as a sign of the artist's end,” Canadian Slavonic Papers, Mar-Jun 1998

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3763/is_199803/ai_n8792387



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 19, 2007, 07:30:26 AM
(http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/sbo0264l.jpg)

The wild inventiveness of Bolaño’s evocations places them squarely in the realm
of Borges—another writer who draws enormous power from the movement
between the fictive and the real.

From Nazi Literature In The Americas
Roberto Bolaño
 
Edelmira Thompson De Mendiluce
Buenos Aires, 1894–Buenos Aires, 1993

"In 1929, the stock-market crash obliged Sebastian Mendiluce to return to Argentina. Meanwhile Edelmira and her children were presented to Adolf Hitler, who held Luz and said, “She certainly is a wonderful little girl.” Photos were taken. The future Führer of the Reich made a great impression on the Argentinean poet."

Luz Mendiluce Thompson
Berlin, 1928–Buenos Aires, 1976

"In 1953, the year in which Stalin and Dylan Thomas died, she published the collection Tangos of Buenos Aires, which contained, as well as a revised version of “I Was Happy with Hitler,” some of her finest poems: “Stalin,” a chaotic fable set among bottles of vodka and incomprehensible shrieks; “Self Portrait,” one of the cruelest poems written in Argentina during the fifties, which is no mean claim..."

“from Nazi Literature in the Americas” is part of the Fall 2007 issue of Virginia Quarterly Review

http://www.vqronline.org/articles/2007/fall/bolano-nazi-literature-americas






Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on December 19, 2007, 08:33:06 AM
Nabokov: "The mysteries of mimicry had a special attraction for me. Its phenomena showed an artistic perfection usually associated with man-wrought things.... When a butterfly has to look like a leaf, not only are all the details of a leaf beautifully rendered but markings mimicking grub-bored holes are generously thrown in. 'Natural selection' ...  could not explain the miraculous coincidence of imitative aspect ..., nor could one appeal to the theory of 'the struggle for life' when a protective device was carried to a point of mimetic subtlety, exuberance, and luxury far in excess of a predator's power of appreciation. I discovered in nature the non-utilitarian delights that I sought in art."
sorry not to have included earlier; more on Nabokovian mimesis (I've embedded in amber comments links to VNA's paper dealing w/ teleological aspects):
http://www.thevalve.org/go/valve/article/na/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 19, 2007, 10:50:19 AM
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/8ae/486/8ae486e7-eb51-426f-a800-be26121426c5) (http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/627/8cc/6278cc72-91f1-437e-98cf-78f5a252d978)
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/c52/707/c52707e8-a0b4-4ce5-9a59-4bb9a8d72183) (http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/2b2/12c/2b212ccb-6088-402c-9117-9033c18bc177)

Notes on Nabokov

"Examine the essence of shunning."—Coleman Dowell

“Natural Selection,” in the Darwinian sense, could not explain the miraculous coincidence of imitative aspect and imitative behavior, nor could one appeal to the theory of “the struggle for life” when a protective device was carried to a point of mimetic subtlety, exuberance, and luxury far in excess of a predator’s power of appreciation. I discovered in nature the nonutilitarian delights that I sought in art. Both were a form of magic, both were a game of intricate enchantment and deception.”—Vladimir Nabokov

Nabokov’s Lolita and Pale Fire are like butterflies…

The mimetic subtlety, exuberance and luxury of Lolita and Pale Fire is far in excess of what most readers expect.

By that I mean Nabokov is a master unreliable narrator—with all the tricks of magic realism and narrative up his sleeve.

Lolita and Pale Fire are both intertextual sleight-of-hands...

They are texts-within-texts that are constantly deceiving, enticing and deflecting the reader deeper and deeper into Nabokov’s mimetic subtleties and subtexts.

The reader can open Pale Fire anywhere—the story begins immediately.

Commentary, index, poem, preface—these texts are mimetic texts. They mirror themselves intertextually—Nabokov even suggests splitting Pale Fire in two sections to make the poem-commentary texts more accessible for the reader.

Literary critics differ as to where to begin Pale Fire—whether to read it like a normal book from beginning to end or immediately start consulting the supposedly objective commentary footnotes and index as one reads the “Pale Fire” poem.

But of course unreliable narrative jumps out at the reader no matter where he or she begins reading—reaching the point where the reader even doubts the true author of the texts.

Did Kinbote author just the commentary—or was it all a figment of his imagination? Preface, poem, commentary, index—all the result of his “unreliable narrative.”

Which is the same question in terms of Lolita—who is Humbert Humbert? At what point in Nabokovian narratives does unreliable narrative begin? When does the reader know—that he’s been fooled by the textual mimicry and magic realism?

Isn’t this the hide-and-seek butterfly game an author plays with his reader?

Books as game-texts = between magic and realism = intertextual play between words & reading.

Reading as game-texting = intertextual enchantment and mimetic deception.

Writing as the essence of intertextual shunning = ..............




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 19, 2007, 06:51:03 PM
PUGET,those pictures (both the cover and Nabokov´s) are super,speaking of mimmicry and parody! Still I see the cover face as a coconut with blue eyes ,not hairs or plants.As if a guy was wearing a mask made from a coconut.I love coconut in any form.

MADDIE,I wonder at the second Carmen.How do people manage to organize their lives so obsessively? Do they feel great in their daily routine repetition?The other Carmen:mixing wine with lithium on a daily diet ,quite S/F kool  :)

HOFFMAN, I´ll be damned! Bergson married Proust cousin Louise !!!and I didn´t know. I bet you got that information from the Intellectual Hello Weekly.

NNYHAV,I have to read "Nazi lit. in the Americas".I´mm sure I can,with some effort, find who some of them are.
Then there is his last novel "2666" about the women´s deaths in Ciudad Juarez.
As usual,Master the Linkmeister great links ,the valve.org I´ve put down with my favorites. 

MIRIAM, speaking of *saudades* and *la durée*: I dreamed I was back in Buzios Br.,visiting my ex-partner with the FP and plants were was overgrown and it had suffered many *ampliaciones* so that it was now a huge untidy thing growing up the *morro*,but still I wasn´t furious with my *socio* just full of saudades for how young we had been then.I even put up with Manolo -a parasite who lived off  Mario and thought he was Oh! so sophisticated and then ended up beating his woman for betraying him and I have now been told he´s gone gay.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 19, 2007, 08:28:33 PM
O.K.now no more chit chat and let´s get on with the story.These are bits and pieces I´ve underlined and wrote notes aside.Please notice that my edition is such piece of sht the pages keep dropping off as soon as I turn them.
I´ll start commenting on chapter 2  # 4 and go on until chap.3 half way down (if anyone cares to check it up).
 
Wednesday,June 7:
like in the dream I told Miriam,the jungle takes up what a good architect had left behind,something modern and takes it to pieces in no time.AC mentions Le Corbusier.I´d say Oscar Niemayes-who is today 100 years old and still living."A city where the tropical threatens"(my trans.)

The Worm *el Gusano*  who no one has seen but they knew it existed is probably *decay* lurking.

As He travels further into the jungle He recognizes the language spoken in his childhood where the word "agora" intead of *ahora* is mentioned.So I have to deduce it is in a country where Portuguese is spoken.Brazil? Or maybe *agora* is an old form of Spanish? finally He remembers his mother singing an *habanera*so it might be Cuba after all.

At the end of part 1 He sees a store bearing the name of "Rastro de Zoroastro".Well "rastro" is in sp. both a *flea market* and "a trail or track* which means He is on his way into the jungle.

Thursday 8, part 5
After the theatre where he listened to Lucia de Lamermoore He sees this very old house all lighted up and with no one around,like it has been laying like that for centuries ,ready for a ball still left unattended.I swear there is such a house in the old part of San Isidro,overlooking the Rio de la Plata and I´ve often visited it from the iron railings surrounding it and it IS LIKE THAT ,specially if you have smoked some pot,not much.   

Now we get to the revolution, and there you are! Nothing has changed since AC wrote TLS "first they said it was the socialists against the conservatories ,then the catholics or radicals...." but in the end it is "a question pf persons not parties" and so it is to this very day.Just today there is an article in La Nacion by Israeli-Argie. historian Raanan Rein who mentions exactly this,the curse of LatAm.

Chap.3 #9
June 11 (later)
Here comes the counterpoint between civilized Europe. J´accuse,the Ninth Symphony,Erasmo, des Cars,the humanistic spirit are all mentioned against the dark background of the burning of books,mass murders,concentration camps that went on while someone was reading the Little Mermaid to a child. 

Therefore not only in the tropics does barbarism threaten civilization but also in the cradle of civilization,Europe.The duality is in man,it is inherent to the human race.

I wonder if any of you knows what the song in German menas:
"Freude,shönen,Gotterfunken..."etc.

Chap.10 Tuesday 12
they arrive at the oil wells,I then wondered if it isn´t Venezuela.Now He has this counterpoint between Mouche,who is a sophisticated nuisance and Rosario who is now, as the trip advances, an ignorant but sound (?) woman,a woman of subtance,I mean.

At last the arrive to horse country and as I love horses and enjoy a good ride I know exactly what AC means when he says that only in America did the European horse story go on where the animal did many useful tasks

Chapter 12, Thursday 14:
The abandoned luxurious city reminded me of Manaos where you can still see the ruins of a French Opera house in the middle of the jungle.

Then,what can I say about the language,the metaphors, the baroquian naming of wonderful things.Carpentier is the master of them all.Such excellency! He shines. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 19, 2007, 08:37:55 PM
Quote
I wonder if any of you knows what the song in German menas:
"Freude,shönen,Gotterfunken..."etc

Chorus from Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, also known as the Ode to Joy.  The text is Schiller.  (No thanks to Intellectual Hello Weekly...thank the liner notes.   :))

Freude, schöner Götterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische, dein Heiligtum;
Deine Zauber binden wieder,
Was die Mode streng geteilt;
Alle Menschen werden Brüder,
Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.


(Joy, beautiful divine spark,
Daughter of Elysium,
We enter, drunk with fire,
Heavenly one, your sanctuary.
Your magic unites again
What custom strictly divides
All men become brothers
Where your gentle wing abides.)



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 20, 2007, 12:10:59 AM
martinbeck3

For the heck of it, recognizing it off the bat, i went back to the non-fiction forum {of the six weeks or so before Norman Mailer died}, because I had posted quite a bit of Schiller in comparative translations and other German poets as an indication of what Gunther Grass read when he was just a school boy, what he liked and why,what were the German heritage poems that were the early influence upon his own writing as an adult.   

I included some pictures and photos with them, of the places that these poets had lived. I  think that anyone who had really read the book (while claiming that I had not) would have recognized why those pieces of German literature were there, from having read the text of Gunther Grass on his formative years.

To do that, I really had to grit my teeth at the amount of (four letter word for excrement) that I had to take of off-handed insult for no particular reason.  I think it is a real object lesson in the motivations that drive certain types. You have to ask yourself what do they expect to derive from it?

Well every part of the Schiller has been removed from that forum, as reading material of Gunther Grass.  Is that because it isn't readily readable to English writing posters.  Mysterioso y mas mysterioso.

Absolutely mind-blowing that someone would steal someone else's intellectual constructions, to the degree that has occurred in a number of the forums on this site



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 20, 2007, 12:24:52 AM
martinbeck3 re:#723

"like in the dream I told Miriam,the jungle takes up what a good architect had left behind,something modern and takes it to pieces in no time" 

A sometime amateur archeologist whom I met through a friend, Don something or other,who had a rancho somewhere as you approach Cancun becan to raise money for his expeditions in the Guatemalan jungle by making his rancho over as a sort of "dude ranch" for tourists to stay down there.  He wanted to build a really big attraction at Cancun; I would say he probably succeeded by the amounts of people who have poured in there since; because that was back in the Sixties, when we were introduced.

When he would go exploring the jungle, he showed us some of the film, he would take a bunch of locals in with machetes to try and clear the liana off the face of the Mayan structures as much as possible, he was hoping to rehabilitate these smaller temples.  I don't know what became of this project, his favourite hobby, but without a doubt from what I saw that he showed us of his reclamation efforts on film, the jungle always took back, from the beginning. There was no stopping it.   

The most interesting thing I ever heard of was an area on the delta coast between Surinam and Brazil that is the deposit from Amazon flow out of the jungle; and the soil in it has proven to be so rich, a fortune could be made on selling it to "growers" just about anywhere in the world.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 20, 2007, 12:32:56 AM
martinbeck3

More from #723

" He recognizes the language spoken in his childhood where the word "agora" intead of *ahora* is mentioned.So I have to deduce it is in a country where Portuguese is spoken.Brazil? Or maybe *agora* is an old form of Spanish?"

No, it is an old form of Greek, It means "the market place" ,where the ancient Greeks assembled and took the vote.  Not without reason that we refer to, a "fear of going out in public places", as agoraphobia.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 20, 2007, 12:37:33 AM
Ps,martin, maybe you missed your calling, but oh,well, the opportunity may strike at some time, because the way that you outlined #723

--you could be writing story line, story boards, for camera direction in shooting films.  I like it.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 20, 2007, 01:35:35 AM
Quote
Absolutely mind-blowing that someone would steal someone else's intellectual constructions, to the degree that has occurred in a number of the forums on this site
 

Give us a break...no one stole anything from you.  Martin asked for the translation of a phrase that came up in a book the rest of us are reading.  (If you had read the book before commenting,  you would have picked up quite quickly on the references to the Ninth Symphony.)    Next thing you'll be telling us how a seer revealed your future presence to Schiller who then wrote this for you or that Beethoven contacted you in a dream from the afterlife and asked your permission to incorporate this work into his Symphony. 





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 20, 2007, 02:20:42 AM
Esto, Fabio, ay dolor!, que ves agora 

Martin....until you brought this up, I had thought this was an instance of faulty memory on the part of the narrator, and I was puzzling over why the author had chosen to do this.  But it does make sense if read as a mixture of Spanish (dolor) and Portuguese (agora). My dictionary definitions:   Sp. "ahora", Port. "agora", Eng. "now".  The narrator is a speaker of Spanish whose early language was Portuguese.  From the previous paragraph:

"...And a force was slowly invading my though my ears, my pores:  the language.  Here once more was the language I had talked in my infancy; the language in which I had learned to read and sol-fa; the language that had grown rusty with disuse, thrown aside like a useless instrument in a country where it was of no value to me."

Again, the idea of evolving back to the beginning, back to the genesis. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 20, 2007, 08:28:07 AM
PUGET, the pictures (both the cover and Nabokov´s) you've inserted here are great!!!
I adore the mix of arts and the fact that Carpentier was also a musician makes me much more curious to read all his books than I was before.

Martin,
"Agora" is of course a Portuguese word. You might know that Ladino, which is the Jews language they spoke in Spain and Portugal is a mix of Spanish and Portuguese. In my opinion, much more similar to Portuguese. And in Ladino they say "agora" and not "ahora"….and many other words…

About your dream:

MIRIAM, speaking of *saudades* and *la durée*: I dreamed I was back in Buzios Br.,visiting my ex-partner with the FP and plants were was overgrown and it had suffered many *ampliaciones* so that it was now a huge untidy thing growing up the *morro*,but still I wasn't furious with my *socio* just full of saudades for how young we had been then. I even put up with Manolo -a parasite who lived off  Mario and thought he was Oh! so sophisticated and then ended up beating his woman for betraying him and I have now been told he's gone gay.
So interesting!!! I am not a psychologist nor believing in any witch craft, still, I think our dreams do not come just out of the blue…
In your description of the dream reality and fantasy are mixed together. Eastern would say that one should be full of mercy and forget friends' faults.
You can write a story about Manolo. I think it can be a good story… 
I remember you told me once that you spent sometime in Brazil, so "saudades" are not strange to you.

Unfortunately I do not have the book yet….it is on its way around the world…so I really cannot refer to any of the comments written in this forum, concerning the book of Carpentier.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 20, 2007, 12:58:43 PM
Mringel....your comment on Ladino is most interesting.  You commented in a previous post that you study languages.  I wonder if you might suggest a resource on Ladino.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 20, 2007, 02:34:37 PM
Lhoffman,
Here is a link to wikipidia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladino_language
It is interesting to me also that the connection between Portuguese and Ladino is mentioned
In my childhood I heard Ladino, spoken by my grandmother. I did not understand the language and it was the "language" adults spoke in order to "hide" secrets from children.
Later in my life I studied Spanish and I found out I begin to understand ladino.
But it was only after studying Portuguese that I found out that now I really understand ladino since it is so similar to Portuguese.

It reminds me a nice story Filomena, my Portuguese friend told me. She traveled to Brazil and spoke Portuguese. The Brazilian did not understand her (the opposite never happens...)
And she asked: in what language do you speak?
And Filomena said: in your language.
Since I learned some languages and heard many more, I find out I can understand some Russian or German without learning one lesson in these languages.
I think most of the members in this forum speaks more than one language.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 20, 2007, 02:47:38 PM
Thank you Mringel for the link.   Lots of external links there, too.  I am surprised to learn that Portuguese was not understood in Brazil.  I thought it the official language.  Is this a factor of regional dialect, do you think? 

I am envious of your ability to decipher German....Often I can other translate languages I haven't studied, but German always throws me.  I do have it on my list of languages to be studied. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on December 20, 2007, 06:12:24 PM
http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,112.msg57023.html#msg57023


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 20, 2007, 11:33:35 PM


Lhoffman,
Yes, of course, in Brazil they speak Portuguese, but they pronounce it differently, so Portuguese of Portugal sounds to some people like it was another language.
Portuguese's from Portugal do not have any problem to understand Brazilians.
Spanish and Portuguese are "sister" languages, but again, Portuguese understand easily Spanish while Spanish speakers have difficulty to understand Portuguese.
Sometimes I am amazed by this fact.
It is true that Spanish is a very easy language to learn (most girls here, in my country speak Spanish after watching hundreds of hours of telenovelas...)
For example:
A ultima noche que passei contigo (Spanish) is it right, Martin?
A ultima noite que passei contigo (Portuguese)
(Last night that I spent with you) see?
Portuguese is quite difficult and much more complicated, especially the grammar, but if you know French or Italian, it is easier for you.

I am fond of music, all kind of music, but especially classic music.
Languages are for me different variations of music, so I love to write, speak and read in other languages.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 21, 2007, 01:14:27 AM
I wheeled with the stars,
my heart broke loose on the wind.

—from "Poetry" by Pablo Neruda

This poem is about the great awakening Neruda experienced when he first started writing poetry.


martinbeck3, in light of my reference to  Il Postino.







Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 21, 2007, 01:19:25 AM
"I am envious of your ability to decipher German....Often I can other translate languages I haven't studied, but German always throws me.  I do have it on my list of languages to be studied."

Apparently, you are not the only one who did not decipher the German of: Das Reich von dieser Welt.    That is Alejo Carpentier's other novel,
The Kingdom of this World.

Are you so unaware that anybody can read the posts with your outstanding remarks in other forums? You have no shame but think that is a strength.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 21, 2007, 01:24:39 AM
Just for the heck of it in regard to the now of ahora and the agora found in the OED which records it more than likely because of the literature that became so respected  among the British, without being too derivative
they made a not of agora for when they studied the Greek of Homer,The Odyssey, the Iliad, or the Tragedy of the House of Atreus.

Check in the English Dictionary. " Agora "


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 21, 2007, 01:52:51 AM
Madupont
It is very interesting the word "Agora".
 In Portuguese the word "agora" has several meanings:
Now, at present, at this time.

If you write Agora! It means impossible

If you write "ágora" with Á it is a place of assembly, especially the market place in ancient Greek cities.

In English dictionary I found the last translation, but look at the small difference in spelling, the accent upon A.
It is what we call inconsequentiality, petty detail, which can change the whole meaning.
In Hebrew "Agora" is a small coin, penny and I suppose it came from Greek, as in the market people used some kind of money….


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 21, 2007, 08:02:41 AM
Mringel....on language and voice as music.  Consider the titles of the above mentioned Carpentier.  In Spanish, "El Reino de este Mundo", the German, "Das Reich von dieser Welt", Portuguese, "O Reino d'este (?) Mundo", English, "The Kingdom of this World." 

Spoken aloud (ear feel, mouth feel), would you guess these to be the same "song?" 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 21, 2007, 08:46:25 AM
Lhoffman,
In Portuguese "The Kingdom of this world" is translated:
O Reino Deste Mundo
Well, it is the same song, but in variations.
As every language brings with it so many connotations, it is no longer only the music we hear or play.
I listen to the music of the language and if it is possible, I read the book in its original language.
Sometimes, I read the book in the language it was written and then I read in my mother tongue. If the translation is good (and most translation here are excellent, as the translators are superb), I can feel, hear and listen to the music of the book.
Voices - I suppose that since Carpentier was also a musician, voices of his heroes mean more than in other authors' books.
I already said here that I find out that Saramago is "playing" music in his books and I find a great difference between the voices of men and women, and also many nuances in each voice.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 21, 2007, 10:29:09 AM
I read the idea of the worm as related to decay, but also as an undermining element to human progress...perhaps an unpredictable force.  The interesting thing is that (in this novel), Carpentier doesn't see progress as positive.

Is the worm a recurring motif in the works of Carpentier?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 21, 2007, 10:50:12 AM
mringel,

Millions of people read books in their first editions in the local language of the reader, which is of course beneficial to the author in his livelihood and reputation as a writer.

It takes approximately a generation(or, even two)afterwards before you find the university student studying the language of a particular writer, before writing a dissertation on that same writer's concepts,ideas,even the music within that author's writing.  (Unfortunately, in another following generation,the public apparently loses interest for the time being.)

Given the date of publication on Carpentier's "Lost Steps", some may have considered that it was meant to have a philosophical-ideological impact on European readers, via allegory, now that we realize what was about to take place in each of the nations of Western Europe. What better than a reflection in which the main character attempts to return to a simpler world or finds himself in a more primitive outcome where he has no  access to the amenities of a civilized world as he previously knew it.

This is not the only time that Carpentier takes a predictive or philosophic and fictional approach to an historic event, either impending or past (by examining the past origins of language or musical sound,that one may be able to intone the correct sound to either have the magical effect, although it might not be possible to restore a world bent on future destruction).  It was quite obvious to some more recent readers of--  The King of this World  --that Carpentier did not intend to be explicit with historical accuracy when writing a novel about the Haitian Revolution against the French. It was the Revolt that was important to his text.   As such, it became obvious that this event had an impact upon a number of other  neighboring Latin American countries as well as Caribbean nations.  The consensus from the literary analysis at a graduate level indicated there had been some thought that Carpentier was writing to others who spoke and read his language," Heed this example of what you might wish to avoid, there is no going back once the bloodshed has begun."


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 21, 2007, 11:20:33 AM
Madupont,
I loved your last comment. It illuminates some points I'll probably understand when I'll start reading The lost steps.
You are right about languages and reading although I have the feeling that something is always missing in translation.
Literature is still something that brings together people from different parts of this world.

I was in Japan 15 years ago and we took a trip to Kyoto. At lunch I met people from many countries and we has "small talk"....very soon we started to talk about books and authors.
All of us read Garcia Marquez, Kafka, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky etc. etc. and we could share our priorities and discuss it.

In the last 10 years I have been lucky to meet a Portuguese friend with whom I share a lot of literature dialogues.
As both of us read all our lives, we found out we read the same books.
Who read these days Jean Christophe by Romain Roland?  (9-10 volumes). Musil's Man without Qualities is a book one can always find on the shelves of the public library. Young people are in a hurry and they choose shorter books and lose, in my opinion, much of the pleasure of reading.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on December 21, 2007, 12:05:41 PM
Carpentier has a wide knowledge of anthropology.  I dont think he needs to invent the Worm to make the point the novel is driving at.

(The one armed hero of Kingdom is also an herbalist (and shape shifter).)

He sees with everybody else, the transition from classical to romantic in Beethoven and the final fragmentation of music in the 12 tone scale. Is Schoenberg in his prime in 1956?

Note what happens when somebody (author or translator) applies English words to Schiller.  The rhythm and music he is trying to convert to words is gone.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on December 21, 2007, 12:08:59 PM
The Lost Steps strikes me as quite distinct from The Kingdom of this World primarily due to the protagonist's viewpoint. Ti Noël directly experiences what our current narrator merely mediates, the veneer of civilization running so deep in him, holding him back from what he thinks he wants. There's also an insane jealousy about him. These combined to make me wonder to what extent TLS is a specific critique upon Rousseau.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on December 21, 2007, 02:23:29 PM

He sees with everybody else, the transition from classical to romantic in Beethoven and the final fragmentation of music in the 12 tone scale. Is Schoenberg in his prime in 1956?


Schoenberg was dead by 1956....so yes, many disgruntled music theory students will tell you that he was in his prime.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on December 21, 2007, 03:02:42 PM
Our narrator counts out the 12 tones, verifying that they're different as a final affront to his human-ness.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 22, 2007, 02:29:17 AM
LAL friends,
In NYT books an interesting article is published today.
And it has a lot to do with book discussions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/23/books/review/Price-t.html?8bu&emc=bu


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 22, 2007, 01:22:31 PM

Madupont
It is very interesting the word "Agora".
 In Portuguese the word "agora" has several meanings:
Now, at present, at this time.

If you write Agora! It means impossible

If you write "ágora" with Á it is a place of assembly, especially the market place in ancient Greek cities.

In English dictionary I found the last translation, but look at the small difference in spelling, the accent upon A.
It is what we call inconsequentiality, petty detail, which can change the whole meaning.
In Hebrew "Agora" is a small coin, penny and I suppose it came from Greek, as in the market people used some kind of money….



I should nave noted this before, mringel.   As Hebrew is to Greek on the Rosetta stone demonstrating a linear A from a linear B (or, if one prefers, the Linear Alpha from the Linear Beta, as I once pointed out to my friend Persephone Soteriades)  then the naming of the coin used by one people in the market place also alludes to the use of the marker by the other people when they cast their ballots or markers in the Agora. 

When a word remains in usage that was derived from another language during a period of Conquest  by an existing Greek/Syrian Empire, even after it was over thrown by the Maccabees, what can I say?

Johnr60 may remember that I delineated this at length in the History Forum for LHoffman in regard to the origins of certain religious sects in Basra that have to do with the Babylonian Exile. I will find the numbers on the forum quotes for you and post them by number.

Thank you for pointing out the article in Sunday's Review.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on December 22, 2007, 02:38:01 PM
Though I'm not one for the punditry surrounding the survey (nor the survey itself for that matter), I found worthy of note Caleb Crain's NYer ruminations, linked to and expanded upon in CC's blog:
http://www.steamthing.com/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 22, 2007, 02:50:34 PM
If you don't mind, nnyhav,

I think that I'll go back and read it in the copy of The New Yorker which is on my bed (but the dog in the library was sweet)waiting for me. I have a cat who attends to my reading.  Then when this too shall pass away, I may even get back to you. Merry Christmas, though....

I want you to know that you have raised the level of literacy for the last seven months of my life as a survivor on this place en route to St.Helena.

Thanks.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on December 22, 2007, 05:21:49 PM
[...] I want you to know that you have raised the level of literacy for the last seven months of my life as a survivor on this place en route to St.Helena.

Thanks.
Is it the abstruse words? the convoluted syntax? Whatever it is, the wordplay's to make ideas precisely vague. All in good fun.

And Merry Christmas, or Happy Solstice, to you and all as well.


Title: Mouche and her Huskies...
Post by: Beppo on December 23, 2007, 09:18:15 AM
Carpentier is studying the passage of time as it wrestles with the limitations imposed upon it by reaching the outermost regions of one of the western grand narratives, namely the culmination of centuries of classical artistic endeavour, in what might be termed as prose in the high baroque. His efforts are concentrated on studying the shape of time as it seeps and breaks away from positions of strength, perfection and the standing of perfect stillness that could be said to be one of the main aims of what is called the Baroque. Time losing itself in the object. His study is of the immediate aftermath, the beginning of the decay. When he travels backwards in space or history time too copies itself in on his perceptions, historical and mythological sensings disrupting his sense of being. He is convinced that he has lived the idea that any time can be experienced anywhere now and believes the stone age can be re-experienced under certain conditions, as can other ages. It's an elegy for a movement and a study in the shapes of decay from a position of exactitude.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on December 23, 2007, 09:36:54 AM
I would define the baroque as that style that deliberately exhausts (or tries to exhaust) its own possibilities, and that borders on self-caricature [...] "Baroco" was a term used for one of the modes of syllogistic reasoning; the eighteenth century applied it to certain abuses in seventeenth-century architecture and painting. I would venture to say that the baroque is the final stage in all art, when art squanders and flaunts its own resources [...]

—Borges, Preface to the 1954 edition of A Universal History of Iniquity (translator: Hurley)



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on December 23, 2007, 11:21:19 AM
I think you spent too much time in New York.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on December 23, 2007, 12:18:49 PM
I cant identify with some of the musical language but everything else seems obvious. AC summarizes in the final pages the message he presents:

You cant go home again.  Intellect can not successfully interfere in an evolutionary process.

"forces from the world left behind continued to operate"

I do not agree that the artist is the only one so affected.

Time and distance are handled in a clever manner, not necessarily a philosophical one:  The narrator's cultural notion of distance as time "3 hours away",  the practical distance of an encumbered space, etc. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 23, 2007, 02:29:41 PM
I like the thrust of the discussion thus far from both contributions.  As to Baroque (when not Roccoco), do you think that any of your descriptions apply at all to be inclusive of Bach, for instance?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on December 23, 2007, 02:41:43 PM
I think you spent too much time in New York.

But the tongue-in-cheek was all in the post's title!

In all seriousness I get annoyed when I start to write a post and end up with nothing. I typed this earlier...

It's interesting when the protagonist states that he feels he's done the same thing before etc when sitting in a bar staring at the glass paperweight thinking the same thoughts when as his reader we have to say well at some point or another the idea for the novel must have taken shape in the head of mr carpentier so in some way he has had the thoughts before that we are reading because this is not an autodictation; when he is writing in the jungle maybe some of that stuff made it into the finished novel - an attempted blurring of the lines because we say that in the end there was no threnody, just a novel, albeit a great one...the foreword points toward the reality behind the inspiration for the characters and setting suggesting read into this so could we say man imagining character, character imagining author, authorly deja vu etc

And this...

From the baroque to rococo the ornamentation and detail feeling time in a historical sense dissipating, breaking off, mould, edges fraying, buttons falling off, shoes with half a heel, his wife's theatrical dressings, something too long, transforming negatively, the outer limits. Read yesterday about mannerism pre-baroque and will hope to read more. But should ask - what came before the period/movement referred to as baroque? What is it about the baroque that so turns on Carpentier? Is it the details and the various shapes of maximum and minisculism that so allows for the engagement of the senses like the feeling of running one's hand over braille? Have started again from the beginning - various stops on first reading heard brain say must re-read and in doing so see that just like his mistress our protagonist has his own superstitions, his own interpretations prior to his adventure that something suggestive is happening within his realities. Only they are more inclined towards the natural.

edit:  The other day, in an old wallet, I found a note I'd taken from you a while back in relation to a reference you'd given for The White Goddess. But when I checked the page you referred to it was unlikely that it was the reference you gave - the edition I've gotten is by Grevel Lindop - I reckon the page numbers in my version are different from yours. I've changed my silly post over in Myth and Ancient Literature to the poem Graves begins his book with. I'm trying to get motivated to read it - I've browsed it so far and read a chapter at random - The Holy Unspeakable Name of God - it seemed to me that this might have been the chapter you would be referring to but I couldn't be sure...page 488 I think you said. It was about the combinations of the tetragrammaton, if I recall... 



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on December 23, 2007, 04:02:28 PM
I missed the title.

I hate these quotes from an abridgment since they dont do justice to the original.

http://home.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/spengler/spengler09.html

see also related topics on the home page


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on December 23, 2007, 04:03:57 PM
How do you say Mouche?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on December 23, 2007, 04:18:33 PM
John - to rhyme with bush.

I like the thrust of the discussion thus far from both contributions.  As to Baroque (when not Roccoco), do you think that any of your descriptions apply at all to be inclusive of Bach, for instance?
 

I'm out of my depth when it comes to discussing Bach. But as far as I understand it, isn't Bach the major composer associated with all things Baroque?

I've been reading wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 23, 2007, 06:20:11 PM

How do you say Mouche?


Differently in French than in English in which the meanings are not at all alike or the same but quite different

The softer pronunciation in French is more expostulative in English which then causes the expression on the face to become "moue", thought badly of in English, considered merely petulant in French but in a feminine way; this however causes attention to be drawn to the Mouche which is like a beauty-mark drawn on the face although the mouch is a completely natural phenomenon which it became fashionable to imitate by placing them on the face.

Thus, you end up eventually with the Moucher, who carries with him a very elegant handkerchief  in his hand for effect but his mouchoir can be arranged neatly but gracefully in his breast pocket if he is not given to making a display of himself in motion or conversation. We used to call that carriage but too often people mistake that for a vehicle.

In English, the moocher is more common; which leads me to believe that the English way of thinking is entirely quite different than the French process of thought.  It was probable that the English did not understand the French custom nor take to it themselves until rather late; well, not all that late, but by then the French had customarily been acquainted that there was nothing wrong about a man, un moucher, carrying a mouchoir or simply displaying it as handy because he ingested some stimulating substance in one nostril or the other, after which he might have to wipe his nose.

The mouchoir is undoubtably a token, left over from an earlier age in which he received it from someone for having achieved his gallantry at jouer. Since obviously the French introduced these techniques to England, there is probably no wonder that the English should pronounce the word with disdain to indicate a person "who had taken advantage of our situation".

I can't help it, I find the whole thing so amusing.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 23, 2007, 07:22:23 PM
HOFFMAN,thanks for the German trnaslation.Now i see why it was placed in that chapter. I agree the whole story is a going back to Genesis and NNYHAV I don´t feel it is a critic to Rousseau at all just  the opposite.See how he gets rid of Mouche and embraces Rosario.

MADDIE, I think that any kind of censorship in the century of google, youtube, mp3 is the more idiotic thing. MIRAM, as you agree with Maddie that I should get myelf to Hollywood and break the strike over there I´ll take your advise and have my life experience filmed by the Cohen brothers.

Maddie,here, see what a great place this guy has in the Misiones jungle (Arg.):

www.donenriquelodge.com.ar
 
feels like the book we are reading,btw the Saltos de Moconá are not spoilt by tourists like Iguazú Falls. Not even electricity.

MIRIAM,I know about Ladino and SPANISH  IS NOT WHAT WE CALL OUR LANGUAGE IN LATAM.,IT´S "CASTELLANO"(this is meant for everybody). It is the language that was spoken in Castilla. In other parts of Spain other languages were spoken like Catalan,Gallego,Vasco etc.-and are spoken to this day-.The language that unifies Spain and LatAm. is CASTELLANO.

Many Ladinos came to South America when they were persecuted -circa 1492- by Queen Isabel and Fernando.You should read "La gesta del marrano" by Marcos Aguinis.You´ll love it.

BEPPO,you ask what is it with baroque that so turns Carpentier.When the Spanish arrived it was the time of baroquism in Spain and so they were used to the baroque in churches,paintings,poetry sang by minstrels etc.They were living in a baroque age.They found that the America they discovered was baroque as all those wild jungles were -you see it as you read TLS- there seems to be no sky,nor ground.Sometime they trekk on a grounds fluffy with millions of decayed leaves and  branches.You don´t know how this feels unless you´ve walked on it.It´s like walking on that thing you have in Scotland that you use to make fire. (peat?).You know where the sky is just because you know it´s on top but sometimes it´s so thick you just can´t see it.Baroque paintings are just like that.In the Renaissance you had all this orderly thing in art then in Baroque you get these Virgins floating in the air on clouds with a myriad of things pullulating below and some guys floating on the side somewhere above.Arnold Hauser says that this was caused by the finding of Galilee and Copernico.Then they got to Mexico and it blew their heads.Well, it´s a theory.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 23, 2007, 08:19:46 PM
I noticed how the trip to the genesis is shown by a different metaphor in each chapter as it advances:

I) The OIL VILLAGE (modern, maybe Venezuela)

He imagines how Rosario would be interpreting the romance of Genoveva de Brabante,dressing her up in modern clothes as Rosario has no idea about the Middle Ages.Like the Spanish who arrived with the conquistadores would interpret the America they saw according to their vision.

Mouche (JOHN60 *moosh) with each passing day is getting more tiresome like a *mosca*-fly- while Rosario grows more beautiful,more corageous to His eyes.

As they sail up the river time starts losing its importance.He starts to smell:the sweat of the negras, the bulls.Here I see Proust (!!!) his madelaine brought him back ages as if time did not exist.Smell is the most primitive of our senses.   

II) THE LANDS OF HORSES, a time when man domesticated horses and the importance they had in his world.
 
The arrival at the city IN RUINS where the *real maravilloso* takes place before their very eyes ,a city abandoned after a plague and several wars ,some dancers dressed as devils cavorting around .Very Middle Age.I was reminded of Manaos,Br.

III) Friday June 15, THE LAND OF DOGS, the days when man had made his  treaty with dogs to help each other,so that dog supplied man with his lost senses (smell ,alertness) and man fed him.But still, there is the wake and women shout and cry just like the do to this day in the provinces.

A month ago I went to the wake of a person that had worked for me for a long time and suddenly one of his relations from Corrientes walked in shouting and crying out loudly.The others looked sort of "oh! my god! now, look at this one!in front of these city people".Then one of them told me with a "hope-you- understand-this-behaviour attitude,"You know, she comes from the province..."

"...How canst thou hear
Who knowest the language of the dead?"

IV) Saturday June 16,
they cross thorugh the STONE valley a STONEHENGE with all those menhirs or maybe...

Saturday night:  the GREECE of classic times? Carpentier says so himself "the hellenism of the landscape. The goats close to the fire.The Alchemist (reminds me of 100 Years of Solitude) .Garcia Marquez certainly stood on Carpentier´s shoulders to write his masterpiece,even the style.Suddenly the mention of the conquistadores:Federmann,Belalcazar,Espira,Felipe de Hutten -who told aobut the El Dorado-

V) Further into Genesis Monday,June 18,
they decide to ignore sailing and to follow,the sun, the moon and simply row.The first night in the jungle He experiences the same fears that primitive man must have felt and in the morning he has accomplishe *la primera prueba*-first as the storm is the second test.He is going back into the very simple fears of primitive man.

WEDNESDAY JUNE20,
The arrival at those huge black mountians that emerged from the jungle straight up like a "gothic cathedral" .Just imagine how the conquistadores must have seen them just like Rosario imagined G.de Brabante,a sop opera star.
When encountering the indians Carpentier says that nothing would seem more ridiculous now than the absurd concept ot "savage".

O.K. I got up to when He finds what He went looking for:i exactly fifteen days.I still have 100 odd pages to finish.This time I have the disticnt feeling that I am reading the best Latin American writer ever.       
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on December 23, 2007, 08:37:47 PM
HOFFMAN,thanks for the German trnaslation.Now i see why it was placed in that chapter. I agree the whole story is a going back to Genesis and NNYHAV I don´t feel it is a critic to Rousseau at all just  the opposite.See how he gets rid of Mouche and embraces Rosario.
The narrator has some Rousseauish attributes and attitudes, the jealousy/paranoia thang for instance, noble savagery of course, and keep in mind that JJR's linguistics deprivileged the written. But I'm not so sure about Carpentier. But I shan't say more now lest I give anything away.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on December 23, 2007, 10:08:47 PM
the Baroque

I'm not sure if AC uses the term generally or specific to the culture of Bach.

Quote
Smell is the most primitive of our senses.

No, touch.  But he gets there soon.

Quote
I'm not so sure about Carpentier.

Me neither those last lines about the artist have me confused.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 24, 2007, 12:10:05 PM
Martinbeck3,
You out-did yourself in #767/#768

Castellano came after Nicaraguan to me; and later, I heard not so much California dialect Pachuco from the late '40s but, what Don Otremove hears in Texas, from my peripatetic Crystal City friends like the ladies from the Northern States such as Chihuahua, yet I forget what that is called so we would have to ask the Don. Do not think it is Kikapues,though.

I had one Ladino-speaking friend, smaller and finer than Selma Hayek's version of the painterly wife of Diego Rivera( less hirsute, as well); but that was because  she was part Chinese, as well as French, and Spanish, and indigenas,and Jewish.

Which is why, I suspect, along with that Amazonian "peat" traveled by another friend regularly, that although Jean  Jacques Rousseau is mentioned by Carpentier (in terms of the ideal Sauvage imagined but unreal that would improve our overly civilized neuroticisms), another image rather than concept  can be seen. Look up the painting: The Dream*(1910)
by Henri Rousseau (I can't send it without an e-mail address, as I never got the knack of reproducing illustrations on this board;plus today I have a fugged no place to hold the screen while transferring between screens and the copy Hewlett Packard is on the blink in fact it is flirting with me right now).

Okay,take a breath, when you got to the Land of Horses, I am reminded that the same Devil Dances took place in Arizona and New Mexico and scared me as a child when visiting the Pueblos. The dancers in black and white are a mixture of the two culture clash, although they wear a head-dress clearly Aztecan,it is worn over a mask in black similar to the white mask of the Penitentes in Spain during Holy Week; and, if this was not frightening enough, they gesticulate and threaten you with white crosses held in each hand.  This is exceedingly symbolic, because although nowadays blancos as tourists are told not to treat this as theatrics rather than religious, not to interupt, or attempt to speak to the dancers because they are not actors but "enactors"/celebrants, since I experienced this almost seventy years ago, it seems logical to me that the casting out of devils was directed at the non-participants who stand and stare and consider the ceremonies "primitive". They may have come up with these dances specifically when the Spanish arrived, to cast them
out; and then gradually it became layered with accretions of meaning during the Mission period and having seen the Spanish processions enacting the casting our of sin.  It becomes a very esoteric idea or ritual, something between the mysteries of Greek tragedy as cathartic or, maybe, the later theatrical production of Jean Genet's white faced double entendre "black face" actors in Paris and on Broadway.

I have to consider that Alejo Carpentier had developed that sensitivity known as dual-consciousness which is the normal condition where multicultural consensus results from prior inter-racial marriage, cross-cultural/cross fertilization; and though he had Surrealiste poet friends in France, the end literary product is neither quite Surreal opposed to real maravillosa, nor magic realism post-surrealism but something truer to the actual experience of self-identity.

The incident you mention of "she comes from the Provinces" is perfectly normal for church funerals throughout the North American ghettos since this is a vast improvement on the wakes of the "former provinces of the U.S.South, where the impoverished could so ill afford a funeral that ,without a Patron, "liquids" would often leak from the wooden coffin as the body decomposed before the burial could take place.

Ps. last note* yes, moosh is the correct pronunciation of mouch but about that mosca fly(mosquito), I was amused to find the name of our pesty former poster from nytimes(who used to have temper tantrums and speak impolitely to his intellectual betters in the nonfiction department)and with whom I have been personally threatened upon  imminent arrival. I had another name for him but I think the Italian meaning for mosca will do; they call that an "adultress" in Italy where there are no male adulterers.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 24, 2007, 01:10:29 PM
MERRY XMAS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4o7GC9PMVE

FELIZ NAVIDAD!

the choir is the FP´s.

PRIMITIVE INSTRUMENTS: you can see the *charango", the small guitar.It is  made with the *mulita* (poor beast)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yepes's_Mulita

some eat *mulita*

The other instrument is the *bombo* an instrument much enjoyed by the peronist whenever they need to express themselves  ::)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 24, 2007, 02:31:37 PM
Dear Friends,
HAPPY XMAS TOYOU ALL!!!
Miriam
 :)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on December 25, 2007, 08:42:45 AM
I've got not much to say, except:

Gui guishiu a merri crismas,

gui guishiu a merri crismas

gui guishiu a merri crismas

An a japi niu ier.


Japi sisons evri uan!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 25, 2007, 11:30:53 AM
Feliz Navidad, elportenito 1, just the same.  Is everyone happy now, the Prodigal Son has come home?  Merry Christmas to everyone, it is time to bring out the Stollen and the bockwurst for brunch.
(and also, Buon Natale!)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 25, 2007, 07:04:05 PM
MADDIE, i had my panettone -Italian stollen-.

When i mentioned Rousseau I meant the philosopher -the one of the noble savage- still i think "dounaier Rousseau"´s pictures come very handy to explain Carpentier´s jungle:

 http://www.usc.edu/programs/cst/deadfiles/lacasis/ansc100/library/images/297.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 25, 2007, 07:07:36 PM
I have found a good link to Baroque painting:

http://www.usc.edu/programs/cst/deadfiles/lacasis/ansc100/library/styles/Baroque.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 25, 2007, 11:19:54 PM
The Rousseau, Dream, landscape is rather dark in the way that it reproduces. Here it comes up with black where it is usually green. The stylized odalisque even has somewhat light hair just dark enough to contrast with her skin which, although dusky, radiates light,

This is also notably true of the Zurbaran painting, which reproduces colorless and gives little indication of the magnetism of thie painting of the Saint contemplating a skull.  For years, this hung in my home town which was overjoyed to have maintenance for awhile; and, the first time that you approach it, it has the intended very deep spiritual  effect. It is painted in predominantly warm ombre tones, the skull is that deep beige tan of a relic against the brown robes of the monk. The dimensions are also squeezed narrow in this reproduction, overall giving a wrong impression of what the painting reveals.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 25, 2007, 11:47:05 PM
martinbeck3,

re: 777     With many of the paintings, the further I review each particular work, I am wondering whether it is correct to include quite so many variations in style in one lump category and subsume them under Baroque.

http://www.usc.edu/programs/cst/deadfiles/lacasis/ansc100/library/images/027.html

For instance take a good look at that Zurbaran, St. Francis, again. You begin to notice when once you take your attention away from the subject matter that it is one of those meticulous studies particularly of the folds in the robe,he wears. This has been going on since the classical works of art based on the themes of the ancient world. What is even more interesting is that some ancients did this rather well in odd places like Kandahar where Asian civilization met up with Greek in the person of Alexander. They carve small, merely several inches high standing but walking bodhisattvas whose robes appear to move lifted by the wind.

Doing this in a painting of this period, to  honor St. Francis, Zurbaran is really doing a study in light and shadow in the folds of the robe and how the light falls and what it strikes. This is a particular kind of genre painting that began to geographically cross borders of more than several European countries, perhaps competing with each other but they are really interested in how to represent the light, which is fascinating in how quickly it changes so it is a challenge to observe and then be able to knock it out fast, painting what you have seen, even if it is no longer there in front of your eyes.

Compare it with the Vermeers, which always has light entering the room from an angle slightly above on the left through a window but the light even when it brilliantly lights the features of one person, usually a woman, is contrastingly faint in comparison to what Zurbaran depicts  of the piercing sunlight in Spain. What is  intrigueing about all this interest in the optical effects of light is that it occurs more or less at the same time or following upon the investigations of optics to be used as ground for equipment such as spectacles,magnifiers, microscopes, and telescopes; the other day, in fact, you included one of those portraits of a wedding couple as reflected in a convex mirror.     

http://www.usc.edu/programs/cst/deadfiles/lacasis/ansc100/library/images/621.html


Just call me 'Sister Wendy'....


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 26, 2007, 10:48:10 AM
MADDIE,I agree.There are great differences in the paintings included in the link.I suppose it is because all were painted during the so called baroque times but not all of them are truly baroque.

 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1310/is_n1_v21/ai_6134023


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 26, 2007, 11:14:22 AM
Quote from: martinbeck3 link=topic=190.msg57672#msg57672 date=1198626785[color=blue
[/color]
Yesterday night at Xmas dinner (the 24th.for LatAm) the FP´s mother who knows about everything and is usually right-very elegant and informed witch- explained that I don´t know which of her ancestors arrived in Arg. because he was a Lombard who favored Garibaldi,who also came for a time to Arg.(probably practicing like Lafayette,typical European).

O.K. this ancestor had written somewhere that in southern Italy the Nobles had a saying that you never counted what you spent or deduce it from what you possess and that a lord´s house should be so large that he would always have a room to discover.Imagine them in the hands of down to earth Lombards!!! Just like the Gatopardo they didn´t stand a chance.

Great film. Great director.Great actor.Terrific novel.And it is totally true.


Martin, I dragged this back with me, it having been on my mind after I read this (and the prior credits which I found absurd because I was the only one who discussed the history of the book from the publisher's editor,Giorgio Bassani, who is best known for his own novel: The Garden of the Finzi Contini  --

 {Il Giardino dei Finzi-Contini,  (1970)} --

and then went on to discuss Luchino Visconti's work because he follows with some of the more unpleasant reflections on society in the period  of IGdF-C which was directed by Vittorio de Sica.   Another film's title and director, from that time which dealt with the exile to Southern Italy of homosexuals, when that was the way that Mussolini felt about it, I can no longer recall. I recall the film itself but not the pertinent data which was remembered by a woman who used to post with us at nytimes.com and it is a shame that we have no access available to any archiving of that forum which I think was destroyed by someone who didn't really consider our input valuable in the least; but I may run into that woman after all who knew the pertinent film about the civil climate of Rome at that time.

What I did in that regard in that forum was to post the work of the particular exiled artist and notes from his diaries about life in extremus at that point in history in a geographic locale that was impoverished and by nature uncomfortably arid.

Likewise the remarks of Bassani on the exile of  Tomasi Di Lampedusa, which was his choice; he went to live with his wife in northern Europe for the duration of the war, and returned to discover a destroyed villa[which this quiet soul rather underplayed at the end of his novel Il Gatopardo, where the old housekeeper throws out on the ash-heap, the favorite dog of the ancestral nobleman which he had preserved by taxidermy].  Thus far, the English translation of The Leopard is lifeless and uninspiring; although, there was rumor that the attempt was about to be made again. I could barely get through the cliches of Sicilian life that conveyed nothing but I tried to give resonance to some of the situations and relationships and their significance, why the Resorgimento lapsed into opportunism which led eventually to fascism because of the desire for a "strong man" to take charge; and of course, his ideal was to return Rome to its former glory as Empire. I attached photo links of this period for that forum.

I felt that I should do that for the sake of and in memory of the friend from my childhood whom I sometimes referred to as, "my Godfather", Salvatore Fricano, who like Lampedusa was born at Palermo.

Another words, I post to set the record straight. Thanks for sharing your Xmas dinner raconter!

Ps. If you want to see a "Villa", I will post the link, it's in the neighborhood of my niece and is known as "the Getty". Because it is his(J.Paul Getty)collection of Etruscan,Roman, and Greek art, it was decided to put it in appropriate surroundings.
  


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 26, 2007, 11:32:39 AM
mb3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:060807-002-GettyVilla001.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72057594111515172/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/131459231/in/set-72057594111515172/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/131459804/in/set-72057594111515172/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/131459775/in/set-72057594111515172/


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 26, 2007, 04:07:34 PM
Compare with the real villa in Il Gatopardo:

http://www.donnafugata.net/img/photo/santa-margherita.jpg


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 26, 2007, 11:29:01 PM
You are saying this is the one that they picked for the filming?  It is kind of what I pictured while reading the book. Sicily can be kind of awful.
Lampedusa's own house was somewhat more in a wooded area, with a terrace from the woods to either the back or the front of the house, suspect that it was the back of the house, which provided good cover for the allied troups that took it over, then they moved on, and the Germans moved in, that when the house got severely damaged as the allies returned.  Can't remember where or when I saw photo coverage on the house.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 27, 2007, 10:15:56 AM
MADDIE, Donnafugata is real.The summer house where they all travel to in Il Gattopardo.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 27, 2007, 01:25:01 PM
I have the book of AC in my hands.
It came by mail today and I started reading it.
I hope that after the seasons we'll come back to the chosen book The lost steps...
Have a wonderful holidays.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 27, 2007, 02:10:34 PM

MADDIE, Donnafugata is real.The summer house where they all travel to in Il Gattopardo.


I'm with you on that. Yes, I do recall the references in the novel to the summer house; I even looked up the geography(but I do also recall having some unpleasant off the wall aspersions made at the time by those who did not believe the variety of cultural influences that arrived on the various coasts of Sicily, and that the Count himself had been born on a little island* away from the greater Island of Sicily to which they traveled).  It was their point of origin as a family.

These places,islands*, are nearly unlivable and yet people still survive there; the secret is that if you have become very rich,then you can bring all your necessities with you for the family holiday of the Count's era.  I was reminded of this recently, when I watched three of the Michaelangelo Antonioni films once again.  L'Avventura was the first of these films in which Monica Vitti decides to remain behind on one of these islands an excursion group has been visiting and during the course of which one of her friends goes missing.  They never found her, divers dive, police boats and the excursioners(except for three who remain behind) travel to the next island and back, and so on to the next following the currents to discover where this girl has disappeared. Nada.   Monica Vitti refuses to leave because her friend may have fallen over the edge of the hillside overgrown with verdent foliage so that you might miss your step and tumble.  They wait in a fisherman's hut where she surmises there is nothing (but the old man shows you his photographs on the wall, when he arrives, of himself and his friends when, like elportenito1,he went to Australia); he just goes out in his small wooden boat and fishes each morning in the dark and he lives by that means. Another film maker, Rosselini, who captures this starkness, and again this could be called "reale meraviglioso" because the return of the school of tuna seems like something released from a hell at the bottom of the sea, except that the villagers of Stromboli must beat them to death to have food for themselves.


Other than that digression, yes,  while reading the book,I kept picturing the type of architecture, notice again--not baroque but far earlier, as the Count wanders about, to his observatory for instance, and back in his great house while the author Lampedusa narrates the story of his ancestor.  Of course, in the film, you get to see the interiors, ultimately the period of furnishings is "upper bourgeois" sprinkled with family  heirlooms, despite the reputed authority of those recent former generations of family members who considered themselves heroic figures. I have no recollection whatsoever of the exterior that was filmed for the movie.

But, while reading Il Gattapardo,I wasn't close to imagining anything like one of the Godfather trips in the series of films, the sort of scenes that refer to Lucky Luciano's deportation to Sicily for instance; while just conjuring up from the print off the page, I know it to be vaguely something akin to what you have posted but is the summer-house.
(the only architecture in my memory, interiors that I can call up, are those in the style of Northern Italy, from my childhood school days. The ironic part is that they were built by Sicilians and Calabrese who came to the Midwest  from the East Coast. But they were the organized workmen and craftsmen!)

Nevertheless, the more that I learned about Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa,
(his ancestor, Giulio Tomasi, received his title, as first prince of Lampedusa, from Charles II of Spain in 1630; so in that sense, if necessary, one could describe the island house as "baroque". A century later the family resettled on Sicily itself.) I stumbled across publicity on the writer's own inherited house and how it had been in the path of the confrontation during WW2. The only impossible to imagine worse blow was the destruction of Monte Cassino,the Benedictine Monastery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Monte_Cassino_Opactwo_1.JPG

Giorgio Bassani must have been working for the publishing house , before ever writing his own novel of the Florentine nobility who just happened to be Jewish, in time to make Lampedusa's book a world-wide best seller, which led to the film Il Gattopardo having to be made.  This may very much have stimulated Bassani's own memories of his youth during the war, in order to write the story of the what happened to the Finzi-Contini family.  Lampedusa himself was of course dead by the time that his book was published and famous and we all went to the movie (psst....because of the people who were in it).

Soon the post-holiday posters will be back to take up Alejo Carpentier's,The Lost Steps; but, I hope that this side trip into Italian history, literature, and film opens up some second thoughts on the Nature of something called "magical realism" as something sometimes so real because it is of Nature(and in the nature of things we call "history").





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 27, 2007, 03:11:55 PM
Proof of real-maravilloso:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj3QAyDzia0

This engine went by itself and ran for 2 hours across the provinces of Mendoza and San Luis.The ghost engine.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 27, 2007, 03:22:26 PM
MIRIAM, today I´ll finish TLS.You are in for one heck of a trip.Then I´ll be leaving for Pampa de Achala ,Cordoba, from 30/12/7 until 15/1/08.I´ll try and post from over there but I dount there is a web connection since it´s like so *far from the madding crowd*.

Click on the pictures scrolling down the page:

 http://www.clubandinocordoba.com.ar/noticias/?p=128


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 27, 2007, 03:39:09 PM
martinbeck3

Don't happen to be a Capricorn by any chance?   Are you climbing or trekking or both?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Donotremove on December 27, 2007, 04:23:48 PM
Martin, Beso1 is hailing you over in Central and South America.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 28, 2007, 06:01:10 AM
Martin,
Have a nice holiday, nothing to rush about.
I am moving to my new appt. on the 14th of January, but I'll not have internet there for 2-3 weeks, as the home is new.
I am writing to myself notes and I'll try to write from my son's home.

Cordoba - I told you that my youngest son made a long trip to South America. He was of course in Argentina and Cordoba is one of the places he visited.
In the 6 months of his trip I made a virtual trip with him. I found out photos and even videos from every trek and city he had been to.

Italian art and culture: I did a small research about Italy when I read "Manual of Painting and Calligraphy" by Saramago.
The protagonist makes a journey to Italy and observes especially the Renaissance era..

The choice of Italy is not accidental. Italy, ‘the cradle of art’ is also ‘the cradle of Fascism’. His voyage  starts the in Milan, where graffiti calling for freedom are noticed on the city walls, and final exercise brings us to Rome, Todi and Naples in which graffiti is praising the Neo-Fascist, and pictures of Mussolini are still sold in shops. Italy and its art is only an excuse to be related to ‘here and now' in Portugal in 1974, shortly before the 24 of April revolution. Italy is the ‘cradle of culture’, the place that conserves the culture by all means. Monuments and Art masterpieces are well reserved.
But this same Italy is the ‘cradle of Fascism’. In March 1919 was constructed in Milan the fascist movement, small groups that were called “Pasco de combatimento”.
In that case, journey is an inner voyage into the self. The outside journey – is only a kind of a simulation exercise, in thought, in imagination, in possible chronicles and in a ‘one person voyage’.  Solitaire, lonely, there is not a voyage to people and with people.
Not a voyage with “the other” and to “the other”.

THS starts with the will to go out of a metaphor prison. (The word "prison" is mentioned several times). It is the inner prison the protagonist feel, the cause to go out and travel, to go out and find the old, or the authentic world).


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 28, 2007, 04:35:26 PM
MIRIAM, I trekk,ride and if necessary climb.What I like most is riding -the horse makes the effort poor beast,that is his place in this world- the idea is I get there somehow.

MADDIE, I am a Libra. In the hills I feel at home. I was born there and my ancestors used to live in Cordoba since I don´t know how long.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 29, 2007, 12:47:00 AM
Martinbeck3

I decided to take a flyer into just reams of Lombard material after you mentioned what the Fiery Pen's mother had to say about history at Christmas dinner.  I even ran across the first Garibaldi I  who was probably the founder of that family. One thing leads to another, the Lombards as far as the Moravian Gates, etc, to Salerno, and the Monte Cassino of St. Benedict which I mentioned earlier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#_note-32

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fara_Gera_d%27Adda3.JPG

[edit] Architecture 
 
The Basilic autariana in Fara Gera d'Adda.Elements of this roof's supportive molding begin to indicate "Baroque" linear curvature in my opinion[madupont] although centuries before. Perhaps Baroque was a revival that synthesized with other influences?

Few Lombard buildings have survived. Most have been lost, rebuilt, or renovated at some point and so preserve little of their original Lombard structure. Lombard architecture has been well-studied in the twentieth century, and Arthur Kingsley Porter's four-volume Lombard Architecture (1919) is a "monument of illustrated history."

The small Oratorio di Santa Maria in Valle in Cividale del Friuli is probably one of the oldest preserved pieces of Lombard architecture, as Cividale was the first Lombard city in Italy. Parts of Lombard constructions have been preserved in Pavia (San Pietro in Ciel d'Oro) and Monza (cathedral).X The [Basilic autariana *]in Fara X Gera d'Adda near Bergamo and the church of San Salvatore in Brescia also have Lombard elements. All these building are in northern Italy (Langobardia major), but by far the best-preserved Lombard structure is in southern Italy (Langobardia minor). The Church of Santa Sofia in Benevento was erected in 760 by Duke Arechis II. It preserves Lombard frescoes on the walls and even Lombard capitals on the columns.

Through the impulse given by the Catholic monarchs like Theodelinda, Liutprand, and Desiderius to te foundation of monasteries to further their political control, Lombard architecture flourished. Bobbio Abbey was founded during this time.

Some of the late Lombard structures of the ninth and tenth century have been found to contain elements of style associated with Romanesque architecture and have been so dubbed "first Romanesque". These edifices are considered, along with some similar buildings in southern France and Catalonia, to mark a transitory phase between the Pre-Romanesque and full-fledged Romanesque.




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 29, 2007, 02:11:40 AM
Hello to LAL friends,
I cut and paste all the comments you've all wrote about TLS, so that I would be able to refer to it and not to repeat things that were already written here.
Here are some of the notes I've started writing while reading:

1)   Los pasos perdidos – The Lost Steps – what do we think is going to happen in this book, just from reading the title? I like guessing, inventing and thinking about it before I start my reading… Well, I think it is going to be a book about losing something. If it is "steps" it may refer to Time, to a journey, to some kind of memoirs, past life. Maybe a story of losing the way back…it can be a positive meaning of "losing", as to lose the old or new means to obtain another thing. I find myself in a journey without itinerary or map.
2)   Conjugal life – from the very first sentences one can feel that the protagonist conjugal life is not so flourishing. This couple live together and apart. The woman is an actress who prefers to act in Greek tragedies: characters like Antigone, Iphigenias. She goes to her journey, leaving her husband with his lover, Mouche, a "French" free woman, who follows her heart…
3)   Art – both man and woman work as artists. One may think that since it is Art, there is a great chance of renew each day, but Ruth feels she is in a prison, reacting automatically to each step of her life. The man (no name is mentioned) also feels he is in a metaphor prison. He, who renounce his authentic wishes enters the same prison his wife is in. (The word prison is repeated several times). Each day they put another mask upon their faces, a figment of life.  He is attracted to Prometheus Unbound with all the connotations this character has in the Greek mythology and tragedy.
4)   Time
5)   Music
6)   Archeology
7)   Astrology and Kabala…
8)   Thought and Language
9)   Mirror and its meanings
Well, I prefer to stop here hoping one of you is around to write.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 29, 2007, 12:11:27 PM
Mringel,

Conjugal Life & Art  ( points two and three)

"... one can feel that the protagonist conjugal life is not so flourishing. This couple live together and apart. The woman is an actress who prefers to act in Greek tragedies: characters like Antigone, Iphigenias."

"...but Ruth feels she is in a prison."

When reading the opening of Alejo Carpentier's short novel, it was obvious to me that this couple has an  "open" relationship.  He writes what could be interpreted as a not untypical  masculine perusal of the aftermath of the feminine  hurry to be on time for the requirements of her profession.  In the theatre, you have to be there;or, your career is over, whether you are male or female.

There may be a reason that she "prefers to act in Greek tragedies", as they are the first theatre in existence, actually the religious observances of the Greeks, in which they partook of the re-enactment of their own history as humans. Every student actor goes into the theatre having to study theatre-history, the great roles of the past, to understand how this all came together  and what this profession is that they share.

One of the first big roles that I was given to perform was in Jean Anouilh's,Antigone. It was in a small house begun by a director who intended to do European repertoire theatre.  (He was a displaced person, born in Munich,Germany.)

Here are some notes on the significance of that play; cribbed from the usual sources however, lest I forget any significant information that you need to understand the character Carpentier writes.

" During the Nazi occupation of France, Anouilh did not openly take sides, though he published the play Antigone, often viewed as his most famous work. The play criticises - in an allegorical manner - collaborationism with the Nazis.

Jean Anouilh's play Antigone is a tragedy inspired by Greek mythology and the play of the same name (Antigone, by Sophocles) from the fifth century B.C. In English, it is often distinguished from its antecedent by being pronounced in its original French form, approximately "Ante-GON."

The play was first performed in Paris on February 6, 1944, not insignificantly during the Nazi occupation thereof. A comparison is sometimes drawn between the French occupation and the play, with the character of Antigone representing courageous members of the French resistance, while her uncle Créon represents the collaborators to the German occupiers, however this interpretation is somewhat simplistic, and is not hugely helpful in understanding the deeper themes of the play."

I played in it about ten to twelve years after that first performance but, in the role of Ismene,Antigone's sister. "Thus, it is apparent that Ismene serves as a foil for Antigone; she is the “compliant citizen” to her sister’s “conscientious objector.”

"Ismene laments that while she too loves her brother, her disposition does not allow her to defy the state and become an outlaw. Once Antigone was caught, in spite of her betrothal to his son Haemon, Creon decreed that she was to be buried alive. Ismene then declared..."

This tradition of the ancient Greek tyrants of holing up the condemned to slowly execute them by burying them alive in a limited space with a limited amount of air to maintain the possibility of breathing is a trying and dramatic scene. I understudied this role. It helps to be in a position to remember all the exercises done in using the body-work to demonstrate enclosed spatial dimensions, usually done in dance classes of modern dance.

I am going to skip over most of the next, as I saw Martha Graham's dance company perform Clytemnestra soon after she presented it in 1958. And, I had the experience of spontaneously going from the studio into the hallway one day, where she was practicing the more difficult physical motions of moving forward at changed levels, dropping to her knees and them rising in one movement to continue forward, repetitively, a fragment that she had designed for the character to indicate  Clytemnestra's contrite distress at having sacrified her daughter,
Iphigeneia (Eng. /can not reproduce the Greek written characters here, also Iphigenia) daughter of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra in Greek mythology.  Euripides tragedy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:300px-Iphigenia.jpg

Iphigenia is a 1977 Greek film directed by Michael Cacoyannis. Although I have seen this, I prefer his film(1962), Elektra, starring Irene Papas, about Iphigenia's sister, whom Clytemnestra gave to a shepherd as his wife so that she might be so reduced by impoverishment that she would be no threat to the rulership of Clytemnestra and her lover after she kills her husband Agamemnon upon his victorious return from the Trojan war.

Iphigeneia and Elektra's brother is, of course, Oedipus.

By now, you  have probably noticed, we have a parallel situation in both the plays,Antigone, or in Iphigeneia; there are two sisters contrasted,some of the agon is over a brother, or two brothers contrasted as in Antigone.

I didn't find it at all odd that Carpentier's heroine plays these roles but finds the daily grind a "prison" of routine, since traveling road companies of the classics of both ancient drama adapted to proscenium theatres as well as the work of Spanish, and French dramatists were exceedingly popular in the Latin countries/South America and the Caribbean.







Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 29, 2007, 02:40:43 PM
Madupont'
Thank you for your comments. Here is what I have to say:
1.   I am not sure the conjugal life of Ruth and our hero is an "open" marriage. He says he had to follow his wife, since she was an actress, but by flowing her he had to renounce his wills and he felt he was in a prison as well.
2.   Antigone, Iphigenia and Prometheus are not accidentally chosen. These characters were and felt victims of their destiny. Are we talking about being a victim or being responsible for/of your life?
3.   I found it very interesting that you say you played in a theatre and made the character of Ismene in Jean Anouille Antigone. I read the play and I know about his interpretation.
4.   As a matter of fact I took many theater courses in my first degree and I am acquainted with all the Greek tragedies by Sophocles, Aeschylus and Euripides. I recall this course as one of the most interesting course I took during my studies. Many years I taught Antigone or Oedipus and it was always the best part of teaching as the students adored these plays.
5.   In my second degree I took many courses in philosophy and in comparative literature, so the place of the Greeks was huge.
6.   Electra's brother is Orestes and not Oedipus, in Euripides Orestean trilogy. The trilogy of tragedies upon Agamemnon and his family is the center of this trilogy.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 29, 2007, 07:11:11 PM
As I read the last pages of TLP while the FARC hostages are about to be released in that same jungle which hasn´t changed one bit since the discovery of America.     


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on December 29, 2007, 07:12:43 PM
MY BEST WISHES TO ALL MY LATAM. FRIENDS FOR A GREAT NEW YEAR !


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 30, 2007, 01:07:21 AM
mringel, re:797 

  "Electra's brother is Orestes and not Oedipus, in Euripides Orestean trilogy. The trilogy of tragedies upon Agamemnon and his family is the center of this trilogy".

You are right of course, if he had been Oedipus, then Clytemnestra could not have been his mother; and we would not have the myth of the House of Atreus.

And, yes, the hero, of Carpentier's The Lost Steps, is a bit of an inward whiner, prefering to consider if only he didn't have to take the inconvenience along with the "convenience".


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on December 30, 2007, 01:23:12 AM
martinbeck3

"As I read the last pages of TLP while the FARC hostages are about to be released in that same jungle which hasn´t changed one bit since the discovery of America." 

That's an interesting point because it came up again in a book being done for World History forum, not really into discussion yet; but, I listened to the opening tonight (of 16 parts) and while discussing the particular year, the writer,Mark Kurlansky,gives you a little room to stretch like a good tailor taking your measurements and deciding what your inclinations are likely to be. So when in the late Fifties, we have Castro, suddenly he endorses a "cult" of Che, and the saying becomes prevalent,"Como Che!"; and the reminders of Regis Debray whom I certainly did not know about back then and not really until asking someone French who looks at it this in retrospect but not from experience.

The first thought that went through my mind, when hearing this on the disc was, yes, that's nice but will the writer go into the Seventies, I would doubt that, too far to go? but would he have written what took place after Debrayism was persecuted by a senior member of a privileged New England family and that it would lead to a senseless commission of crimes against humanity in Latin America on a par with what is again happening but this time in Iraq and spreading from a false understanding of what was taking place back in --say,1968.


Are you now leaving on the vacation, or were the photos just to suit The Lost Steps?

Either way, Best wishes and much celebration for the New Year, say hi! to the FP.     

Happy New Year to Mringel as well.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on December 30, 2007, 09:06:00 AM
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on January 02, 2008, 03:27:44 PM
HI ,the photos were of my holiday in this Wuthering Heights cum adventure travel place in Cordoba then there is another place called www.donenriquelodge.com.ar I´d never venture there as in summer it is hotter that hell.This is really a  8) place.Plenty of incredible places like say a jungle in a huge hole in the middle of the rocks with a stream running and us crawling on all 4´s to get there.Rememberthe scene in French Leutenant´s wife where they meet? Wll just like that but at altitude of 2300 mts -like half the Himalaya- with condores flying past and tchan!!! NO TOURISTS!!!

TLS it´s difficult for me to go back to the book but not impossible.Miriam, I think you hit the nail.I don´t want to be a spoiler but you are right.I´d get off the Greek track.The STEPS are the clue.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on January 02, 2008, 08:00:27 PM
martinbeck3,

"...as in summer it is hotter than hell."(why else would that woman even think of swimming where she is?)   That's kind of what I figured out for myself. It reminds me of the movie where Kathy Bates went native among the Missionaries; besides it has everything that Vietnam has and perhaps more so. The girl reading by four lamps reminded me of my short stay in Tennessee; and, even then, that was a quarter of a year much less make a habit of it.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 03, 2008, 12:26:20 AM
Martin,
The link you gave of the place where you are staying makes me feel it will be difficult for you to go back to civilization.
You might have interesting ideas about TLS contemplating in this paradise you are in.
I am in the middle of the book and it is very very good!!!
Have a wonderful vacation.
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on January 06, 2008, 01:28:20 AM
No habrá más penas ni olvido

Juan Gelman ya había recibido las distinciones más relevantes de la Argentina, México y España. Al poeta, que tiene un hijo desaparecido, ahora le llega la consagración con el Cervantes, que antes que él honrara a Borges y a Bioy Casares. Se premia así a la alquimia que le permitió trocar dolor en verso y reflexión en audacia.

Por:  Texto: Ana Laura Pérez: Fotos: Archivo Clarín.
 


Lo que intenta la poesía, como la música, como el arte, es morder un poco la realidad que siempre se escapa de las manos. Pero además, tampoco puede ser una proposición voluntaria. La circunstancia no es la que hace al poeta. Es la que, en ciertos casos, lo mueve a escribir una cosa u otra en la medida en que esa circunstancia exterior coincide con una circunstancia interior. Y a veces ni hacen falta circunstancias.

No se escribe poesía por voluntad propia sino por voluntad de ella", dice. Y su voz suena lejana como esa tarde de lluvia y frío en el DF, donde vive desde hace más tiempo del que pueden guardar los almanaques. A él no le molesta tanto como al resto de los mexicanos el frío inusual de este invierno sino ese continuado de temperaturas cálidas que se diferencia sólo por las épocas de lluvia. "Lo que me gusta, en realidad, es que haya estaciones."

Juan Gelman sintió la voluntad de la poesía "cuando era muy chico". Tenía nueve cuando empezó a mandarle versos de Almafuerte como si fueran propios a una vecina dos años mayor. La indiferencia de la nena lo empujó un paso más allá: "Voy a tener que hacerlos yo', pensé y me puse a escribir huesos nomás, versos ¡perdón!". Dijo huesos', ¿un fallido? No deja de ser una metáfora bella y precisa de su forma de vivir la poesía. A los 77 años, lejos de aquella infancia de laborioso enamorado, Gelman acaba de ser honrado con el Cervantes, el premio mayor de las letras de habla hispana. Un reconocimiento a su trayectoria, que antes recibieran los argentinos Jorge Luis Borges, Ernesto Sabato y Adolfo Bioy Casares. Pero antes que al amor, Juan Gelman lega el mérito de acercarle la poesía a su medio hermano Boris, el mayor, que le recitaba los versos de Pushkin en ruso.

El habla muy poco del idioma de la familia, pero puede replicar el gesto fraterno y recordar todavía aquellos recitados proféticos: "A mí encantaba la música, el ritmo, la sonoridad de las frases aunque no entendía nada", suele recordar. José, su papá, era un socialista que emigró dos veces a la Argentina. Había participado de la revolución de 1905 y cuando olvió a su país natal, en 1918, lo desilusionó el rumbo de la Unión Soviética. Regresó a Buenos Aires en 1928 con Boris, Paulina Burichson, su segunda esposa, y Tauba, la hija mayor del matrimonio.

El 3 de mayo de 1930 nacería Juan. Primer ciudadano argentino, tercero en la línea sucesoria de esta familia de judíos pobres pero cultísimos de Europa del Este. Padre carpintero, madre hija de un rabino estudiante de medicina en Rusia, todos se pusieron a trabajar en la camisería familiar. No sobraba el dinero pero se ahorraba de a centavos para ir al Colón una vez al año.

Escribía desde chico, pero ¿ya entonces se sentía poeta?

Ocurre que con el tiempo y la insistencia de la poesía, uno al final se pregunta si es poeta.

¿Y cuándo se respondió eso?
Alrededor de los 19, 20 años.

¿La respuesta la dio el reconocimiento de los pares o la autoconfianza?

Creo que tuvo que ver con un deseo personal o una inquietud de sí. Imagínese que a los 20 años nadie me conocía salvo en casa a la hora de comer. Y en el barrio mejor no dárselas de poeta porque l que no fumaba era maricón y el que era poeta era raro. No le oculto que en esos años de los 15 a los tuve amigos poetas y frecuenté a otros poetas.

Nos leíamos cosas, anduve alrededor de revistas literarias, pero recién me pareció que esto era lo que yo necesitaba hacer alrededor de los 20 años. Publicó su primer poema a los once, cuando ya era conocido en los potreros de Villa Crespo como El pib etaquito ("Me perdía miles de goles por partido pero nunca dejaba de usar el taquito para empujar la pelota. Siempre creí que me salía lo más bien, pero teniendo en cuenta las puteadas de mis compañeros, parece que no rendía mucho para el equipo", contó con motivo de un homenaje que le hicieron como hincha en el club Atlanta). "Los espontáneos",elocuente sección de Rojo y negro , revista que publicaba cuentos de cowboys y detectives, lo publicó por primera vez: Fue un sueño muy hermoso para ser cierto, señor; el destino poderoso, envidioso, lo rompió , empezaba.

Juan, que se había destacado como un niño precoz que aprendió a leer a los tres años, hizo la secundaria en el restigioso Nacional Buenos Aires. Abandonó en los comienzos la carrera de Química. Le nteresaba "mucho más la poesía que la descomposición del átomo, los protones y los neutrones". Probó varios trabajos, pero decidió ganarse la vida como periodista. Pasó menos de un mes en un iniciático house organ, El Asegurador, que dejó por Nuestra palabra , semanario del Partido Comunista. Ferviente republicano como alumno de primaria, ingresaría a la Federación Juvenil Comunista de adolescente.

Fue en ese ambiente político que leudó El Pan Duro , grupo que integraban también José Luis Mangieri, Héctor Negro y Juana Bignozzi. Eran jóvenes, eran comunistas y eran poetas: proponían una poesía comprometida y popular y entre ellos financiaban sus publicaciones. El primer libro editado por el grupo fue de Gelman: Violín y otras cuestiones , en 1956, con prólogo de Raúl González Tuñón. Casi inmediatamente fundó la revista Nueva expresión junto al sociólogo Juan Carlos Portantiero y el escritor Andrés Rivera, con quienes también armó una editorial que publicó Velorio del solo (1961).

La radicalización de sus ideas políticas, más a la izquierda que las de la línea oficial del PC, se reflejó en L a rosa blindada . Fue esa revista la que publicó en 1963, Gotán . Libro legendario que le dio definitiva relevancia, marcaría también su renuncia a integrar nuevos colectivos literarios. El año siguiente lo echarían del PC, semanas después de haberse ido: "Fue el momento de la revolución cubana y un grupo de nosotros sostenía que ese hecho era una línea divisoria. Se hablaba de llegar al socialismo por la vía pacífica; nosotros vimos en Cuba otro tipo de posibilidades", explicó.

Desde entonces y hasta el último y flamante Mundar (Seix Barral, 2007), publicaría más de una veintena de libros de poesía que se traducirían y le valdrían muchos premios: el Nacional de Poesía en la Argentina; el Juan Rulfo en México; el Reina Sofía, en España, antes del consagratorio Cervantes. "Creo que de la poesía siempre se aprenden cosas.

Para quien la escribe es una tarea riesgosa porque cada poema es un paso más dentro de la propia subjetividad. Y eso se incuba en la fragilidad y en la inseguridad sobre lo que se escribe. En cuanto a los demás, bueno, por mi experiencia de lector, la poesía como las otras artes ha tocado o abierto territorios que yo tenía, pero que no tenía porque no sabía que los tenía. Son espacios subjetivos, cosas que de repente suenan sin que uno sepa, muchas veces, de qué se trata. Lo que uno sabe es que hay algo, pero no mucho más."

¿Con qué libro, con qué poema, sintió que pasaba un umbral, que alcanzaba algún tipo de objetivo?

En general uno siempre tiene insatisfacciones con lo que hace. Porque la distancia entre la tarea y el resultado, o el esfuerzo por encontrar expresión a las obsesiones siempre deja la sensación de una distancia entre lo que se quiso expresar y lo que se pudo expresar. Supongo que ése es el motor por el que sigo escribiendo y tratando de apresar la poesía, esta difícil señora.

¿Nunca sintió que tenía a esta difícil señora entre los brazos?

Hubo algunos momentos en que así fue, sí. Son momentos escasos, pero son muy felices. Eso ocurre en todos los libros. En todos hay algunos de esos momentos.

¿Se siente en los brazos de esa señora cuando lee poesía de otros?

No, no es lo mismo. Pero porque al leer cosas ajenas lo que uno tiene es el goce de esa lectura, no el intento de escribir los poemas.

Si a la poesía no se la busca, ¿al periodismo sí?

Sí, claro. El periodismo es una cosa que interesa a mucha gente, que no es el caso de la poesía.

¿Y al escritor? ¿También le interesa?

Yo entiendo al periodismo como un género literario que se escribe bien o se escribe mal. Pasa lo mismo que en cualquier arte: se pinta bien o se pinta mal. A mí, el periodismo –sobre todo cuando fui cronista, que es siempre lo que me gustó más hacer, junto con las entrevistas– me dio mucho porque me puso en contacto con diferentes gentes, diferentes problemas. Como uno es curioso, condición esencial para ser periodista, creo que me ha enriquecido sin duda alguna. Hoy mismo, aunque soy columnista en algunos temas, también me aporta cosas.

La mayor parte de sus columnas de los últimos tiempos son denuncias contra los EE.UU. ¿Qué lo obsesiona de ese país?

No se trata del país. Se trata del gobierno de ese país. Yo me temo una catástrofe nuclear fabricada por este señor George W. Bush y sus adláteres. Eso es lo que realmente me preocupa. Mis artículos son también sobre Israel, sobre Irak y Afganistán... todos esos puntos donde ya hay guerras, algunas muy
viejas, y donde el peligro de un estallido atómico no es muy improbable. En realidad es eso lo que me preocupa, porque eso sería una tragedia para toda la humanidad: que volvieran los hongos atómicos.

En su prosa periodística anterior se destacan sus semblanzas y perfiles de artistas.

Durante años he escrito sobre escritores, poetas, músicos, actores, artistas de cine, siempre tratando
de indagar sobre su manera de acercarse al arte.

¿Qué le interesaba de eso?

El misterio del proceso de la creación. Yo todavía no lo entiendo.

A esta altura debe tener alguna pista.

Psss... tengo pasta los domingos.

LECHE ENVENENADA

Los antecedentes de sus columnas en Página 12 datan de 1966, cuando entró al periodismo grande: en la revista Cofirmado se encargaba de la sección de libros. De allí a la sección internacional de Panorama y luego al diario La Opinión , como secretario de Cultura y Espectáculos. Para entonces formaba parte de las Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias (FAR) de orientación guevarista-peronista, que se fusionarían con Montoneros.

Trabajaría en el diario Noticias , que manejaba esa organización, y en Interpress Service, como director latinoamericano. Las amenazas hicieron que se trasladara la dirección a Roma. Allí y entonces se iniciaron sus años de exilio. Es difícil reconstruir lo que pasó, la verdad de la memoria lucha contra la memoria de la verdad. Han pasado años, los muertos y los odios se montonan, el exilio es una vaca que puede dar leche envenenada, al menos algunos parecen alimentados así.(...) La necesidad de autodestruirse y la necesidad de sobrevivir pelean entre sí como dos hermanos vueltos locos, escribía en Roma en mayo de 1980.

Hacía cuatro años que una patota había secuestrado y liberado a su hija Nora, de 19 años, y desaparecido a Marcelo, su hijo de 20 años, y a Claudia Irureta Goyena, su nuera, un año menor, embarazada. Volvió clandestino en el Mundial '78 y rompió con Montoneros cuando la conducción planeaba la suicida contraofensiva. Le valió una segunda condena a muerte. La primera la había extendido clandestinamente la dictadura. Y no pudo regresar a la Argentina hasta 1988 –tiempos de Alfonsín– porque, en secreto, un juez le había dictado captura por pertenecer al Consejo Superior del Movimiento Peronista Montonero.

En el extranjero se había ganado la vida como traductor de la ONU en Roma, París y Nueva York y regresó cuando intervino la Cámara Federal. En Buenos Aires conoció a la psicoanalista Mara Lamadrid, de quien se enamoró y con quien se fue a México, donde ella vivía y ahora viven: Siempre te amo por primera vez. / Siempre te amo por primera vez, le escribió en País que fué será (Seix Barral, 2004). Con ella publicó el primer libro de testimonios de H.I.J.O.S: Ni el flaco perdón de dios (Planeta, 1997).

De Marcelo recuperó los restos, en octubre de 1989. Habían sido arrojados al río Luján dentro de un tambor de arena y cemento. Lo habían matado de un tiro en la nuca. Después de una búsqueda intensa y de una campaña que apoyaron artistas, intelectuales y personalidades de renombre internacional, en el 2000 dio con Macarena, su nieta, de quien nada sabía al principio. "El mérito fundamental del hallazgo es de Mara. Ella pasaba horas frente a la computadora investigando.

Leyó centenares de páginas y libros y a la madrugada discutíamos las piecitas que iban apareciendo. Algunas cuajaban y otras no." Descubrieron que Claudia había sido trasladada encinta de 8 meses a Montevideo para "regalarle" la beba a un represor uruguayo. La asesinaron después de que amamantara a su hija. "Una vecina del señor que se quedó con mi nieta me llamó." Ahora pidió el juicio para cinco represores del centro clandestino Automotores Orletti por el crimen de su hijo.

Y sigue exigiendo los restos de su nuera en el Uruguay: "La búsqueda de los restos puede parecer necrofilia, pero tiene que ver con otra cosa: con que cada uno de los 30 mil desaparecidos –y como usted sabe las cifras borran historias individuales– existió, vivió, fue una persona y tiene una historia. Encontrarles un lugar de descanso es una vieja costumbre de nuestra vieja humanidad, es regresarlos a su historia y, en general, a la historia de nuestra civilización."

'Obligaremos al futuro/ a volver otra vez', escribió en su último libro. ¿Qué lo lleva a ser tan optimista?

Debo ser un esperanzado sin remedio y para eso no hay farmacias... qué le vamos a hacer.

Republicano, comunista, montonero, ¿cómo se define hoy políticamente?

Como una persona que no ve una izquierda viable en ninguna parte del mundo y que, sin embargo, sigue creyendo que esto algún día va a cambiar. Porque yo no creo que se pueda aplastar el espíritu de la gente, su capacidad de sueño y de deseo, por duro que sea el sistema.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on January 06, 2008, 07:47:56 PM
The mixing of genres explains all of his music. 

Still on the Carpentier trail...

I've read the line about knowing the names of things elsewhere but would say Carpentier has a rich vocabulary that comes from living up to the ideal of that quote. Or else, say that the thought was formed because people like Carpentier have always existed. There's a point in Los pasos perdidos, near the end, where the language seems almost frenetic - I remember this when I was reading it. The other book Carpentier was writing at the same time as Los pasos perdidos was El Acoso: both books have some things in common, but the latter is frenetic from the outset and remains so when the book is finished. Say no more. They strike me as being in some kind of opposition to each other. I'd recommend El Acoso strongly. Carpentier has these vivid powers of description that seem to come from his commanding knowledge of the names of things plus an extremely down to earth approach to human foibles.

It would be interesting to explore the idea (nnyhav) of prioritising the written over the spoken or vice versa. (Rousseau gets a mention in Los pasos perdidos)

Noticed elsewhere that one of the people mentioned in El Aleph by Borges (Paul Fort) had a poem put to music by Carpentier...

Aside from this, picked up in English, Rubén Darío Selected Writings and Los detectives salvajes by Bolaño.

Other than that - happy new year everyone !       


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on January 07, 2008, 08:46:48 AM
The Los Altos episode opens with a tableau of the 12 stations of the cross. Does the narrator's journey similarly traverse 12 stations? And what of his aversion to 12-tone tuning?

Explaining all of the music:
http://zeta.eafit.edu.co/bdigital/HEMEROTECA/HUN038/Revista139.pdf (pp57-66)
http://www.kylegann.com/histune.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on January 07, 2008, 12:36:05 PM
nnyhav

Bravo!

Thanks for the review bringing back old memories. When my mother hired a piano teacher, little did she know.

It was quite confusing to me to be undergoing this training approximately at the same time that I was dealing with telling the time in terms which could be confused with our vernacular terminology in regard to money. But eventually, the ear wins.

"...but 7/6 is an interval that was never recognized by European theory, though used in jazz and Arabic music among others.) "    (I found this very attractive by the time that I was twelve. If by that age and for approximately the next three years you can spend considerable amount of time along, say for instance on a walk outdoors which nobody was doing in those days, generally on the way to school, and you carry over your piano practice by composing music for yourself while getting all that fresh air things become more subtle; or sometimes more obvious. That you don't have the piano teacher necessary for what is happening to you; and, the adults in your life don't care, as long as  you "practice".)

"Nineteenth-century musicians used to argue about what colors the various keys represented; whether Eb major was gold, for example, and D major red. Twentieth-century musicians have dismissed such arguments as sentimental nonsense, but when you play 19th-century music in well temperament, you begin to hear the differences of color. Is it far-fetched to suggest that Mozart and Beethoven wrote keyboard music with certain key-colors in mind, and that we miss subtle but pervasive qualities in the music when we homogenize it into equal temperament?" --

--Dancing, in color, is not a rare thing either when you have been tuning the body to respond more readily to music. Whereas the physical training allows movement to be effect with more ease, you have at the same time absorbed some physical sensibilities responsive to sound.  At some point before my mid-twenties, a workshop for art students was interested in the relationship of the arts to each other and  therefore they were up for having a demonstration I presented with I believe it was three dancers( rather than a quartet ) doing the color of music that conveys color to us.  And they got it, naturally. By then students in the painting studio were practiced in the rhythm of color and experienced it satisfactorily

I have no doubt that Alejo Carpentier's hero, experimenting at first with ideas that were then presented to him by his friend with that recording of the mimetics of instruments* humanly produced actually reproducing the natural sound led directly to taking the steps back to the source where the primitive ritual is not merely lost in the past but traditionally continued as cult.

[One odd experience*,see above, was a trip that I took for some holiday weekend with a group of  friends to camp out in the country amidst the fields, far enough from things so that they could take acid to channel things through that they might otherwise miss. As you might probably know, the field communication itself between those sharing this experience also pass for some unknown reason to the observers; although you should be ready to discount it to other already well know psychological  phenomena that has been published for over a century.  Nontheless, as it was a pleasant day in which birds unobtrusively  traveled above the fields at various levels, dropping regularly to glean, it suddenly occurred to me, if you will pardon the terminology,that I was observing an interesting construction, a beautiful toy that had been invented in which the variety of birds of differing body-sizes and thus that of their vocal chords as well reproduced sounds which they expressed because they had precisely evolved to convey  that sound to us which would otherwise not be heard. This harks back to a mechanistic interpretation of the universe in which everything functions like a beautiful machine]

After the Modern period in Europe, choreographers began to be attracted to notions of ritual dance as seasonal observances but it was in the 20th.century ....
to be continued


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on January 07, 2008, 12:40:05 PM
continuation

After the Modern period in Europe, choreographers began to be attracted to notions of ritual dance as seasonal observances but it was in the 20th.century that they became virtually obsessed with reconstructing these experiences, as I earlier pointed out re: Martha Graham's compositions on Greek myth (or, reality?).

To understand with an example perhaps a little bit closer in time, I had a friend who took off for Varanasi and arrived at the burning ghats, went up to chant with the Shivites for no other reason than they were smoking their chillums.  Another Westerner in passing noticed my friend when little crowds of children followed after her calling out, Laksmi,Laksmi, when asking for bakshish; and so directed the newly named Laksmi to Hanuman temple ashram where Neem Karoli Baba gave darshan.  She eventually went on pilgrimage for whatever reason, and encountered another guru to whom she offered guruseva in return for lessons in music on the Sitar; it may have been that Neem Karoli Baba had sent her because he often asked her to sing for him when she cooked or made tea at the ashram. She came back passing along quite a few of these mantras to me, while we stood at the kitchen stove. Where she also told me this detail: in the midst of all her care for the old guru who was in physically excellent shape because he was a yogin  who walked those long intervals of 20 miles between ashrams as had been set up for the benefit of travelers by the emperor Asoka, she had to inquire when he would begin to teach her how to use that lovely rosewood sitar so that she could play the accompaniment rather than only knowing her chanting.

To her surprise, he answered that yes before you learned what intervals and stops would be used with these strings, because you can not perform the whole alphabet without first knowing how to move with them from A to B, for instance, he did what so many have done and began to describe in the dirt with a stick what the sounds looked like in the Sanskrit alphabet so that she would understand what the Hindi language looked like in accord with the sound moving from a to b in singing mantra. She began to realize that this was going to be a chore of long duration and that George Harrison had not done it over night.

Until then, at least three  years later, when it was shown to me, she merely had a beautiful sitar.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on January 08, 2008, 12:09:22 AM
color=blue][/color]
I know we´ll exclude Italian writers who are *latin*,too but it´s another language.They can be read in Ficition.Otherwise we´ll have to include the French and the Romanian and god knows how many more would claim their Latin roots :)


Martin, I love this post, since you started reading Sandor Marais.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on January 08, 2008, 09:07:08 AM
nnyhav - thanks a lot for the links. Checking out...

Another item within Los pasos perdidos struck me as being worthy of asking why? When Carpentier uses capital letters across various sentences. It reminded me of the famous Borges page:

                                 On Exactitude in Science

In that Empire, the Art of Cartography attained such Perfection that the map of a single Province occupied the entirety of a City, and the map of the Empire, the entirety of a Province. In time, those Unconscionable Maps no longer satisfied, and the Cartographers Guilds struck a Map of the Empire whose size was that of the Empire, and which coincided point for point with it. The following Generations, who were not so fond of the Study of Cartography as their Forebears had been, saw that that vast Map was Useless, and not without some Pitilessness was it, that they delivered it up to the Inclemencies of Sun and Winters. In the Deserts of the West, still today, there are Tattered Ruins of that Map, inhabited by Animals and Beggars; in all the Land there is no other Relic of the Disciplines of Geography.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 08, 2008, 11:06:39 AM
The Lost Steps,
It is a pity not everyone is here and the discussion upon this book is a bit interrupted.
Here are some of my thoughts: I apologize in advance if I repeat some ideas.
1.   Primeval as opposed to Modernism: the scenery of childhood opposite to reality after War II. More than hints to the genocide of  the Jews and many other by other "human beings"…the absurdity of  the horror inserted by the knowledge that the men and women who were civilized and heard classic music etc. could kill other human beings without scrupulous.
2.   Mouche and Rosario – two different women, each one represents another way of living. Rosario- symbolized the primeval in her attitude towards life, in her beliefs, in her simplicity and still cleverness. While Mouche represents Modernism, a generation who mocked to clichés, superficial, shallow and without the ability to observe the beauty of nature. She is busy in trying to attract the Greek they met and her presence annoyed the hero to the point he repents bringing her to this trip.
3.   Romantism symbolized by the ninth symphony of Beethoven and the lyrics by Schiller disappoint the hero, what seems to be the highest level of humanism sounds ridiculous and too Utopian to be true.
4.   Silence and music – I loved the contemplation upon silences. The hour of contemplation, meditation and how it relates to music. The intervals which mean a lot more than a certain note…
5.   Rosario saying, when the hero fought with the Greek: "When a man fights it should be to defend his home"…and he understood at that point that she meant that Mouche is not his "home". This man has problems with modern women. He loses his temper, his tolerance, his passion for them and still he obeys them in a passive way.
6.   Time – one of you mentioned the fact that Time is very important in this novel. Time has no boundaries when you are in the jungle, in the nature. Watches are without any importance. Time is also a symbol of the romantic wish of "going back". Going back to childhood, to innocent memories, to a world seems to be better.
I find out that the perception of Time in LAL is totally different from any other place in the west. We easily can find it in Borges, Marques, Amado etc. etc. it is a very interesting issue I'd like to read your comments upon it.

7.   Can we define the country in which the book takes place? Is it really important, as long as it is South America? I don't really know.
8.   Many names of saints, places etc. which call me to investigate, to google in order to find out where and if it exist or, like in Borges's , it is an invention of the author who mislead the reader in his garden labyrinths?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on January 10, 2008, 04:45:56 PM
Advance word on Bolaño's NaziLit:
http://www.forward.com/articles/12414/
more excerpts:
http://www.wordswithoutborders.org/?lab=BolanoNazi
( via http://www.complete-review.com/saloon/index.htm )

(sorry mringel so much to say so little time maybe later)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on January 10, 2008, 06:46:34 PM
Mringel....do you mean "intervals" when you talk about silence and timing? or do you mean "rests" as in musical pauses?  In musical terminology, intervals and rests are have quite different meanings.

I very much like your observations on the women.  Mouche representing materialism (the miner is attractive because he has access to wealth, but his mining can also be seen as counter to nature?) while Rosario represents the natural world. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 11, 2008, 06:34:43 AM
Lhoffman,
In my translation the word is "interval". But you are absolutely right about the difference between "interval" and "pause" (pausa) in music.
Since Carpentier was a musician it is probably a mistake of the translator, and usually the English translation from Spanish or Portuguese is not satisfied and often is not correct.
I think Carpentier meant "pausa", as in pausa you can hear the silence. But to tell the truth interval as is defined in music: the difference in pitch between two notes….seems to me also symbolic in the scene in which he talks about music and silence and as music relates to time, intervals or pauses relate to time too.
In literature and especially in poetry, the break or rest in between the lines, in between the stanzas has a huge significance.
I enjoy reading Carpentier as much, or quite as much I enjoy reading Saramago. Saramago is not a musician, but his writing is musical, with intervals and pauses imitating music, and I think you understand what I mean.

Nnyhav – waiting to read your comments.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on January 11, 2008, 02:27:56 PM
Quote
Can we define the country in which the book takes place?

AC's note at the beginning of the English translation says that the places and scenes  are real and in "America" but not in proper juxtaposition.  The characters also, but not in context.

Quote
capital letters across various sentences.

I dont remember exactly where that happens, but I'll bet he was trying to give it a medieval feel.

Exactitude in Science speaks louder than any single page of prose that I can think of.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on January 12, 2008, 12:59:24 AM
I was unable to obtain TLS while downunder, and so now have pages of your comments and thoughts to review...I did see the new Vargas Llosa title while I was there though, Bad Girl ? or something...

just wanted to say that my prayers are with Saramago, who is still in hospital ?! Mringel, do tell him that he is beloved by his followers here...

...and I'll catch up soon.



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 12, 2008, 09:13:30 AM
John,
Thank you for your message. In my translation there is no introduction, and usually I prefer not to read introductions or articles upon a book before I finish my own reading.

S2B,
It is a pity you don't have the book. I'll miss your points of view upon this book.
Saramago who is 85 has been hospitalized. He is under care after having pneumonia on his birthday, last November. I cross my fingures for him to overcome and continue to live and write.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 12, 2008, 09:45:49 AM
TLS…some thoughts:
The hero who does not have a name…is it every man? Is it every modern man?
This man "fell in love" with Rosario, the ideal woman for a "Macho" modern man. A woman who feeds her man from her bare hands, who makes a "cup" with her hands so the man can drink water. A woman who is quite a slave and gives the man the sense of being a master… (Carpentier words…). This egoist man brought Mouche with him to the jungle.  Mouche, the modern woman who does not "fit" this jungle and got sick of Malaria is left behind without any second thought. If she'll die our hero will be indifferent, as he confesses himself.
Her illness and her situation are:" The revenge of the authentic to the synthetic"…very strong phrase…

The Greek reads The Odyssey, the one book he took with him to his journey. He feels close to Ulysses and his behavior. Ulysses is a voyager with the strength of will to ignore the sirens so he could go back to his home land and master his land and wife. The irony is "screaming" here…the sirens used their voices to attract men and captive them. And Ulysses was not so naïve and brave in his long journey.
Those of us who read MOBY DICK remember the presence of the sirens in the novel.

As we mentioned before, Carpentier adores the Greek Mythology and tragedies. Everything seems to remind him another episode in the Greek Myth.
The Trojan Women and Hecuba who finds Helena guilty and responsible for what happened in the war…this accusation gives a new point of view to the issue: was beautiful Helena responsible or she was a victim? It is an interesting question, in my opinion.




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on January 12, 2008, 12:59:36 PM
Quote
The hero who does not have a name…is it every man? Is it every modern man?

For some reason I get the feeling of Poe in the narration.  He calls himself Wasp man (white anglo saxon protestant?) and No man (Odysseus?).  One thing for sure he's the masked man, by his culture, his booze, his films, and finally his night-time blindfold.

Note that the story takes its first turn, like many others, with a thunderclap.

Quote
What is practiced as art today--be it music after Wagner or painting after Manet, Cézanne, Leible and Menzel-- is impotence and falsehood. One thing is quite certain, that today every single art-school could be shut down without art being affected in the slightest. ... here in our world-cities, we find a pursuit of illusions of artistic progress, of personal peculiarity, of "the new style," of "unsuspected possibilities," theoretical babble, pretentious fashionable artists, weight-lifters with cardboard dumb-bells--the "Literary Man" in the Poet's place, the unabashed farce of Expressionism, which the art-trade has organized as a "phase of art-history," thinking and felling and forming as industrial art. Alexandria, too, had problem-dramatists and box-office artists whom it preferred to Sophocles and painters who invented new tendencies and successfully bluffed their public. The final result is that endless industrious repetition of a stock of fixed forms... Pictures and fabrics, verses and vessels, furniture, dramas and musical compositions--all is pattern-work. We cease to be able to date anything within centuries, let alone decades, by the language of its ornamentation. So it has been in the Last Act of all Cultures.

Spengler c.1920


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on January 12, 2008, 03:09:47 PM
"The fate of a writer is strange. He begins his career by being a baroque
writer, pompously baroque, and after many years, he might attain if the
stars are favorable, not simplicity, which is nothing, but rather a modest
and secret complexity."


[Quote from Jorge Luis Borges' prologue to El otro, el mismo (The Self and the Other), 1969]



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on January 12, 2008, 04:09:21 PM
           EDGAR ALLAN POE

Marble Splendors, black anatomy
Slandered by the worm in the winding sheet—
All the cold symbols he collected
Of death's victory. And feared them not.
What he feared was that other shadow,
Love's, the usual happiness of
Most People; he was not blinded by
Burnished metal or marble, but by the rose.
As if on the wrong side of the mirror,
He yielded, solitary, to his rich
Fate of fabricating nightmares. Perhaps,
On the wrong side of death, solitary
And unyielding, he devises more
Magnificent and atrocious marvels still


[From El otros, el mismo. Translated by Richard Howard and César Rennert]


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on January 12, 2008, 10:07:39 PM
nnyhav: "a tableau of the 12 stations of the cross"

Actually there are 15 lights, he calls them stations to the summit of Calvary.  He's probably saying something but I dont know what it is.

The 12 tone scale is shown as forced "intellectually" by the pianist and followed immediately by the harpist whose instrument is "naturally" tuned according to its Form.

beppo:  Here also is predicted the pianist's future intellectual chore: Adam's task of naming.  Most of my favorite authors make this observation-- as do least favorites: 

Pynchon:

Quote
Is there a single root deeper than anyone has probed, from which Slothrop's Blackwords only appear to flower separately? Or has he by way of the language caught the german mania for namegiving, dividing the creation finer and finer, analysing, setting namer more hopelessly apart  from named, even to bringing in the mathematics of combination, tacking togethe established nouns to get new ones, the insanely endlessly-diddling play of a chemist whose molecules are words.  391


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 13, 2008, 01:10:17 AM
"The fate of a writer is strange. He begins his career by being a baroque
writer, pompously baroque, and after many years, he might attain if the
stars are favorable, not simplicity, which is nothing, but rather a modest
and secret complexity."


[Quote from Jorge Luis Borges' prologue to El otro, el mismo (The Self and the Other), 1969]

Borges is one of my favorites and it is true he influenced many writers.
Saramago's first novels were those of a baroque writer (Baltazar & Blimunda (Memorial de Convento) is an example. Than his last books have that modest with secret comlexity...Blindness, All the Names...




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: macd on January 13, 2008, 10:24:21 AM
I'm back from vacation and I have TLS in my bookshelves!
I started reading this morning. Could you please tell me which page the discussion started...I would like to read all your comments. Have you all finished reading?

My edition is Venezuelan (Monte Avila), I'm reading in Spanish and according to the introduction in my book, the country described is unequivocally Venezuela. The “Greek” character is real and is nowadays a prosperous business man residing in Valencia, Venezuela (or he was 11 years ago when the introduction was written).  The coup was a real experienced lived by Carpentier during the “October Revolution” in Venezuela, when the Government of Gral. Isaías Medina Angarita was overthrown in October 18th 1945.

Happy to “see” you and happy New Year to all of you.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 13, 2008, 11:26:04 AM
Macd
WELCOME BACK!!!
You cannot even imagine how happy I am that you are here again.
The discussion is not so advanced, so look at the late pages and find out.
Happy New Year
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on January 14, 2008, 04:29:18 PM
AC seems to be making a connection with early instruments, brass and iron, Enoch and Jubal Cain as he refers to all without need. 

Quote
And his brothers name was Jubal (trumpet): he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. Gen 4:21

    And Zillah, she also bare Tubal-cain, an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah. Gen 4:22

Quote
Graves, Hebrew Myths:

Genun the Canaanite, son of Lamech the Blind,living in the Land of the Slime Pits, was ruled by Azael from his earliest youth, and invented all sorts of musical instruments. When he played these, Azael entered into them too, so that they gave forth seductive tunes entrancing the hearts of all listeners. Genun would assemble companies of musicians, who inflamed one another with music until their lust burned bright like fire, and they lay together promiscuously. He also brewed beer, gathered great crowds in taverns, gave them to drink, and taught them to forge iron swords and spear-points, with which to do murder at random when they were drunk...

Many details of the Genun story, taken from the fifth-century A.D. Ethiopian Book of Adam, are paralleled in midrashic writings. Although Genun's name suggests "Kenan,"who appears in Genesis V:9 as the son of Enoch, he is a composite Kenite character: the invention of musical instruments being attributed in Genesis to Jubal, and of edged iron blades to his brother Tubal Cain. Genun was said to occupy "the Land of the Slime Pits," namely the southern shores of the Dead Sea (Genesis XIV:10), doubtless because the evil city of Sodom stood there ...

All of that before the second Fall and referenced in Enoch as well as:

Quote
Book of Enoch 51-5

... Those mountains which you have seen, the mountain of iron, the mountain of copper, the mountain of silver, the mountain of gold, the mountain of fluid metal, and the mountain of lead,

        all these in the presence of the Elect One shall be like a honeycomb before the fire, and like water descending from above upon these mountains; and shall become debilitated before his feet.

6 In those days men shall not be saved by gold and by silver.

7 Nor shall they have it in their power to secure themselves, and to fly.

8 There shall be neither iron for was, nor a coat of mail for the breast.

9 Copper shall be useless; useless also that which neither rusts nor consumes away; and lead shall not be coveted.

10 All these things shall be rejected, and perish from off the earth, when the Elect One shall appear in the presence of the Lord of spirits.



That honeycomb is familiar.




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 15, 2008, 02:17:30 AM
John,
I like your reframing by quoting from the bible and the extrinsic books.
Enoch in Genesis was a very interesting man; he was the father of Methuselah, the man who was considered to live the longest life a man could live.
We have a proverb in Hebrew: HE is old like Methuselah... or, at the time of Methuselah...with all its connotations.

I understand now what you wrote to me in a previous message about the turning point in TLS: Genesis and the creation of the world, this is the feeling of the hero while the canoe brought him to the sceneries he was afraid to face.
Like a baby he hides himself in Rosario's arms.
A mix of cultures in the mind of AC. makes the description so interesting. While reading one can identify many associations and connotations, and still some are still to be deciphered.
Homer's Iliad and Odyssey are considered to be created (orally of course at that time...) at the same time the Bible was written (or orally given from generation to generation until it was really written). Still, AC is a Christian and had in his mind the New Testament and one cannot refuge from his own culture and education.
In this same scene he mentioned Bosch the painter with the symbols representing in his painting….very interesting this mix between the sense of being in Paradise, as the scenery is so beautiful and the feeling of being in Hell, as Bosch knew so well to show in his pictures.
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on January 15, 2008, 02:20:14 PM
It's AC doing the framing, but I dont know why.  He begins the piece with brass and iron, refers to Jubal, inventor of musical instruments while the surface theme is the search for primitive instruments.  At the same time Jubal is not a favorable character, biblically.  AC,  refers to Enoch twice, the honeycomb twice (an uncommon allusion to me) and looks at the signs of the American Noah with the priest, making their fictional projection of time that of Enoch--after the flood.

At least twice, as author, AC attempts to relate entire musical pieces verbally and as narrator needs the words of the Odyssey to do his magnum opus, yet he's constantly praising the music of a pristine state generated by noises and physical constraints rather than programmed.  Nowhere does he use the sounds of those collected instruments, but needs pencil and paper.  Why?

And why does he constantly refer to the notebooks as un owned,
untitled?

Would someone please give me the spanish for "your woman".


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on January 15, 2008, 04:39:17 PM
John...."su mujer"


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 16, 2008, 12:46:30 AM
John, lots of questions and not so many answers….
Names have a huge significance in the Bible.
After killing Abel, Cain wonders in the land and the memory of his brother does not bother him. It is only in his grandson's generation that the name of Abel is reminded.
In the time of Lamech the sound of Abel's name is in Lamech's son's names: Yaval, who was known as a shepherd and living in a tent, and Yuval who is known as the first to hold violin and organ, and the third son's name is Tuval-Cain, who was forger of every sharp implement in brass and iron.
The name Tuval-Cain shows a hint to reconciliation between the victim and the murderer…
In the story of Cain's family, 7 generation until Lamech there is a positive progress in culture, but negative progress in moral. 

I think that these connotations from the Bible are presented in AC. He is attracted to the most primitive, yet authentic music. The Sounds which are not familiar to the Western ear. Music which makes people want to dance like the Indians and maybe the tribes in Africa, natural rhythm, not sophisticated like the music in the West, yet not written with strict rules, which are alien to this world.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on January 16, 2008, 03:09:16 AM
Hi macd

Nice to 'see' you ;-)

(You might want to bypass the post below until you have finished the book.)

johnr60

The mention of the notebooks and the masked man and the attempts at describing whole pieces of music - could it be that the person writing the notebooks (the sub-chapters in Roman numerals) was who the narrator was prior to and during his journey but the six main chapters (in the book form) are the attempts by AC, in some way, to overcome this person, this previous self, by re-organising the work of this other? The mask - that would indicate that we are not able to take at face value the musings and thoughts of the narrator. An element of desperation existed in the protaganist prior to that eventful day (the skies bursting open and the thunder) when he bumped into the curator. He attempts to deny himself the journey offered but it's when he's at his most desperate that the curator sees that he has what it takes to achieve the desired ends. That part of the story reads like a confession. There's a line that goes something like - 'It's difficult to become a man again after one has ceased being one.'  There's a certain point in the reading where the tempo increases dramatically and somehwere around this point I got the feeling that what could be achieved by these ancient instruments is somehow attempting to be reflected in the effect of the text.

All his masks have been ripped away - the notebooks (un-owned and un-titled) are blank as is he in the hope that he has become an empty vessel capable of channeling into his work everything (rhythms included) around him: in miniature, in the text as opposed to with the instruments?

Lots of references to saints as previously mentioned, also his time spent as a soldier and the pages about his father and mother - does any of it add to a clearer picture of the masked man?   
 
     


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on January 16, 2008, 05:12:33 PM
AC was in exile in France in the 30's where he met Andre Breton champion of surrealism and author of
LES PAS PERDUS (1924).  Interesting in terms of the murals in the intelligentsia hangout as opposed to his description of the plants "before the Word" below the Petroglyphs.


A quick re-read shows our hero literally as Jubal, in the time of Enoch in that critical scene of the airplane (arriving as thunder--hammerschlag 3) when hours and millennia are juxtaposed.

The intellectual naming process is finalized with the line that true creation does not exist unless others see it and  someone names it.

This is not to say that our hero follows the rules that the story proposes.  He is constantly rationalizing, correctly and incorrectly.  I think that's the idea portrayed by himself and his Other mirrored and surrounded by a Baroque frame.

In the end he is just as brainwashed by culture and literature as Mouche is.  It might even be said that Ruth, in that beautifully written picture of her movements and appearance on his return, is working on the much more natural level of the feminine mystique. 

This nice piece is worth the effort:

http://clcwebjournal.lib.purdue.edu/clcweb02-2/gonzalez-echevarria02.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on January 17, 2008, 03:13:09 AM
'There was a note on the piano from Mouche telling me to wait for her. To kill time I began to finger the piano keys,
striking meaningless chords, resting my glass on the last octave. The place smelled of paint. On the rear wall, above the grand piano were beginning to come clear the sketched-in figures of the Hydra, the ship Argo, Sagittarius, Berenice's Hair, which would soon give my friend's studio a distinction that translated itself into money.'

What's with the little list of astrological items? The narrator refers to Mouche's Maps of the Future and scoffs at her pretensions. Is there anything in there that might have an element of truth to it?





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on January 17, 2008, 12:41:01 PM
I know nothing of the symbols other than they're constellations--he mentions them a couple times at least.  I do think that AC is describing a flaw in Mouche's brand of astrology--that evolved from books , charts and predictions as opposed to that of primitives which might attempt to define tendencies to go with or against.   


Title: When one Cohen's not enough
Post by: Beppo on January 18, 2008, 08:08:00 AM
Returning to the previous posts on El Aleph for a minute or two (apologies in advance)

I popped into the big library down my way last week and sat for a couple of hours looking at some books that are out of print Borges-related. Found this, for example from J.M Cohen's book Jorge Luis Borges (1973) Cohen thought that the idea for El Aleph came from a passage in the biography of Jakob Boehme. He quotes from The Varieties of Religious Experience, where William James writes of the illumination experienced by Boehme around the end of the sixteenth century:

'Sitting one day in his room, his eyes fell on a burnished pewter dish, which reflected the sunlight with such marvellous splendour that he fell into an inward ecstasy, and it seemed to him that he could now look into the principles and deepest foundations of things. He believed that it was only a fancy, and in order to banish it from his mind he went out upon the green. But here he remarked that he gaped into the very heart of things, the very herbs and grass, and that actual nature harmonised with what he had inwardly seen.'

Whilst googling for the date of publication of the Cohen book I came across another Cohen:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/books/06cohenintro.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on January 18, 2008, 08:15:21 AM
I know Los pasos perdidos The Lost Steps discussion is still ongoing but I was wondering what the next book to be read might be. I noticed that Saramago was suggested - I've read Blindness already and no longer have a copy so may need to pass that one by. An unread Saramago I do have is The Stone Raft but I got the feeling it's already been read by most people here.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on January 18, 2008, 08:21:58 AM
I haven't read The Stone Raft, but it's the Gospel that awaits on the TBR shelf.

But then time has pressed, so in discussion of The Lost Steps I've fallen out of step. Now I'm reading about the Lost Boys.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 22, 2008, 09:51:35 AM
I hope people will come back from the holidays and we'll continue the discussion upon TLS
There is a lot to say...some questions etc.
The book is very interesting, yet I have been asking myself why AC wrote this book?
It might seem strange after what we've said here, but still....
I hope to find some enlightment here with you all.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 22, 2008, 09:54:51 AM
SARAMAGO
Each book of this author is ok with me.
Didn't we discussed alreasdy The Gospel?  I have the feeling that we did.
Blindness, The year of Death of Ricardo Reis or All the Names are my favorites.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on January 25, 2008, 02:57:47 PM
MO'BOLAÑO: another excerpt:
http://www.bookforum.com/inprint/014_05/2047


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on January 28, 2008, 09:25:00 PM
So I got my copy of the new Bolaño today (whilst looking for the new Kertész, also found) up at BookCulture (aka Labyrinth) and got my first Piglia, not Artificial Respiration as I'd hoped, but The Absent City. For me, Saramago will have to wait ...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: S2B on January 30, 2008, 08:03:34 AM
the library here has finally found a copy of The Lost Steps for me, I am supposed to pick it up tomorrow ! and I expect to read it this weekend...so I will be reviewing comments posted, though don't know how much I can add

gung xi fa cai ! a happy lunar new year to all


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on January 30, 2008, 09:00:38 AM
Hello S2B.
Please read the book and write your comments.
This forum is in a "winter bear sleeping"...
It is, probably as a result of the Holidays
Let's hope people will come back fresh and with new ideas.
I have some more comments about TLS, but I'll wait
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: elportenito1 on February 03, 2008, 07:17:34 AM
martinbeck3: Where are you, Martin, at this time of the year, very probably you're in Cordoba. If so, have a good time.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on February 03, 2008, 03:48:33 PM
martinbeck3: Where are you, Martin, at this time of the year, very probably you're in Cordoba. If so, have a good time.


He said he would vacation but it has been weeks now, maybe a month.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on February 03, 2008, 03:53:30 PM
the library here has finally found a copy of The Lost Steps for me, I am supposed to pick it up tomorrow ! and I expect to read it this weekend...so I will be reviewing comments posted, though don't know how much I can add

gung xi fa cai ! a happy lunar new year to all


Gung hoy fat zai ,to you too,S2B. I'm going back to my Chinese classes for the occasion as a brush up. But we have a day or so before the New Moon,here, while simultaneously celebrating Carnevale or Mardi Gras.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on February 08, 2008, 03:44:20 AM
MB3 - BOLBÉ TE PERDONAMO´!

Spent some time in the company yesterday of Bernardo Soares, The Book of Disquiet.

Notice some people were mentioning that they are reading The Lost Steps. I got to a point where I didn't really feel as if there was anything else I could say about it. If anyone has anything to say please post it as this may spark some insights previously missed. One of the things that struck me after the fact was His Women - the three of them and his struggles with them. Plus, the last act of the villagers seemed to be one of forgetting all about the protagonist, when it seemed, to him, that he was almost in the opposite situation.

Other than that, kind of wondering what could be looked at next. Saramago has been mentioned but no real reading synchronicity as such with posters so maybe something else?




Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 08, 2008, 05:49:13 AM
Beppo and Lal friends,
The book of disquiet , by one of Fernando Pessoa's heteronym, Bernardo Soares is a book to spent time with all our life. It is so wit, so interesting, yet so pessimist.
As for TLS, I've been waiting for people to write and even Martin disappeared…

Some ideas:
If there is no audience, art has no value, especially music, which can be heard everywhere.
The protagonist is ready to marry Rosario, your woman, (I understand your woman as a code between men symbolizing they being masters of the woman…). He wants to do it in spite the fact that he will be a bigamist, as he is still married.
Rosario, the simple woman does not to marry him. She wants to live in an equal relationship with her man…
Marriage in fact is not an ancient idea… modern societies made this obligation a law. In Rosario's thought: "the man knows that having a person who looks to his pleasure and comfort depends on the way he treats her". 
The descriptions of the jungle, the primeval feeling of the man in front of the nature reminds me of the feeling I had when I was for 2 weeks in Sao Tom?, an island in West Africa. What one should do there is to look, observe, feel and contemplate. No words can describe the beauty of this nature and the beauty of its people.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on February 08, 2008, 09:50:03 AM
Sorry that I've not had more to say about TLS, but have read the commentary with interest. Hard to synch up in this group.

Beppo -- Pessoa's good company to keep. You're never alone with a schizophrenic. :)

Read Nazi Literature in the Americas this past week, along with Kertesz's Detective Story (having a LatAm venue); I've not seen it mentioned anywhere that Bolaño's Distant Star is embedded in Nazi Lit the same way that Amulet is in The Savage Detectives ... currently reading Roberto Piglia, The Absent City (haven't been able to find Artificial Respiration yet) ... how all this fits together is left as an exercise for the reader.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on February 08, 2008, 03:06:14 PM
Borges interview newly translated (via TEV):
http://www.habitusmag.com/index.php?id=43


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 09, 2008, 08:56:03 PM
There again, in Borges, that quirk in the way our mind works that allows the unknown object of our attention to take on new attributes which, by definition are false, yet ate to become become true simply by by our applying them:

Quote
...these books have been enriched by generations of readers. Without a doubt Alonso Quijano is more complex now than when Cervantes imagined him, because Alonso Quijano has been enriched, we say, by Unamuno. Without a doubt Hamlet is more complex now than when Shakespeare originated him; has been enriched by Coleridge, by Bradley, by Goethe, by so many people. That is, the books live on posthumously. Each time that anyone reads them, the text changes, even if slightly, and the fact of being read with respect makes us see the riches in them ignored by the author. Perhaps a good book never corresponds with everything the author set out to do.

Is that any different than the way we work with metaphor?

Quote
"In metaphorical language, two concepts are combined so that they form a new concept (e.g., marriage as a nightmare) and additionally they change each other (both "marriage" and "nightmare" acquire a different meaning, one reflecting the nightmarish aspects of marriage and the other one reflecting the marriage-like quality of a nightmare). They trade meaning. Predications that are normally applied to one are now also possible on the other, and viceversa. A metaphor consists in a transaction between two concepts. The interpretation of both concepts is altered."

http://www.thymos.com/tat/metaphor.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 10, 2008, 01:22:44 AM
John,
Do you think there is any connection between The Twelve Steps and The Lost Steps?
Wikipedia: "A twelve-step program is a set of guiding principles for recovery from addictive, compulsive, or other behavioral problems, originally developed by the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) for recovery from alcoholism.[1] The Twelve Steps were initially published in the first edition of Alcoholics Anonymous ("The Big Book") in 1939; since then more than 25 million copies have been printed in many languages.[2] This method has been adapted as the foundation of other twelve-step programs such as Narcotics Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, Co-Dependents Anonymous and Emotions Anonymous. As summarized by the American Psychological Association, working the Twelve Steps involves the following.[1]"

If you read the 12 steps in this link:
http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/steps.html
One can see that there is a great connection to the Bible. Someone told me that the psychologists dealing with addiction etc. read the Bible again and again and these 12 steps are based on biblical laws.
I find it very interesting, as Carpentier gives us many hints from the Bible.
What do you think?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 10, 2008, 01:26:46 AM
Bible refernces:
I found this link:
http://www.alcoholicsvictorious.org/12-steps.html
A mix between the Old and New testament....interesting.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 10, 2008, 11:25:35 AM
As I'm sure you know, isolated Biblical quotes can take you anywhere.  We both  could find some specifically denying those of AA, most of which are from the NT while AC seems to stick with the Old.   

I'm waiting for someone reading in their original language to comment on some of this stuff.  I've posted everything I've got so far but it will be buried by the time we get around to discussing it.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 10, 2008, 12:15:55 PM
The steps of the title most likely are not countable but in response to this

http://books.google.com/books?id=G9Nyq0khONgC&dq=lost+steps


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on February 10, 2008, 01:29:02 PM
HI FRIENDS! I missed you but it was impossible for me over there (Cordoba) to get a connection without standing in line for hours among a mob of teen-agers.

I went on *veraneo*-summerizing, from the latin: summer holidays :) for two weeks and stayed for a month.What the hck,you only live once,and ,so what? nothing happened my mother, as usual , worried that she´d outlive her money,and i had a great time,so much so that i ´ll have to pick the Lost Steps and read it again.

During my veraneo I read Sándo Márai.He is great and now I want to read Irene Nemirovsky but can´t find any ,it´s "everything *agotado*",not a copy left in the whole frigging country.Look, it´s not like we have no bookstores,just look at this one: georgeous:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54j8y-yDFe0

built in an old cinema.

We publish more than in Spain, EU!

MADDIE: "como Che" or "cómo,Che" have two different meanings: the first is "like Che", the second one is " you,what´s that?".We call each other *che*, which really means *hey, you*.It´s a Mapu-che word or Thuel-che, tribes of Argie indians...sorry native Argentines.Che in their language means *people* like in *gente*, from the gens,you know,greek or whatever,see Engels.

...and MYRIAM, the place I stayed in is Cordoba,no foreign tourists,almost no tourists,at least where I go.I always ask first,"do you have  paved streets? and if they say"well...you see, not exactly,but it is fine if it doesn´t rain too much,o.k. that´s my place.

MADDIE, the

http://www.donenriquelodge.com.ar/

-link- is in the jungle of Misiones,Arg. I didn´t visit there,but I sent the link because the *selva* reminded me of the place that is described in TLS.Like JOHN60  says ,the jungle as described by AC could be anywhere in LatAm but I read in the cover of my edition that AC had previously traveled down the Orinoco in Venezuela where he got his inspiration for TLS.

BEPPO,"the mixing of genres...".I mailed BDHPoet but the mails came back.I wonder where he is.

let´s try Ye Olde Trick:

BDHPOET,BOLBÉ TE PERDONAMO´ ;)

If this doesn´t work ...

The NYT article on Borges as foreseeing the web is excellent!

 S.O.S. S.O.S S.OS.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE LINK TO THE OLD ARCHIVED FORUMS??? There is one Book of the Month dedicated to Borges where this was commented on.-commented ON ,too English or not English at all?

JOHN60, where does AC call himsedf *wasp*!? Is it in TLS.Maybe here I can help with the translation

BTW, I  read the Borges´interview when he was 83.That translation is nefarious  :o  Ms.Jennifer Ackers ,godallmitee!!! A truly Kult of the Search Feature Apossel. How did you English speaking citizens of the world manage to undestand it!!!

JOHN60 ET AL. John, I read your link to Roberto Gonzálea Echevarría´s essay.I was stunned that he needed to clarify what our LatAm lit. was.I thought everybody knew this.I am certainly quite naif at not recognizing what cultural colonization really means. I mean, we write in Spanish and their are like 600 M people speaking our language.It´s not like we are Hungarian.

MYRIAM, *he´s as old ad Methuselah*,sure you didn´t get this saying from your Argie. husband? give him my saludos. The FP sends her regards to you and MADDIE who both "keep me out of harm´s way".I suppose she means visiting XXXX sites. I rather not ask her in case I wake up the *fiera* in her. Very creative, she is, has a dirty mind all of her own full of fantasies about a  man´s hidden thoughts.I told her we only think about football,cars and women but she won´t believe it´s only that.

More to MYRIAM: I think that at the end of the novel you realize why AC wrote TLS .I think the last chapter is a sort of *ars poetica*.Try skipping the rest and reading the last chapter.Nobody´s looking.

NNYHAV, Master The Linkmeister,was it you who posted the link to the NYT archived forums ? It HAS to be you. Could you try it again,please? I´d love to re-read some parts of it, not mine,to be precise.

I so enjoyed the Schiaffino Boys! I was at times furious because that Chilean,Bolaño is poking fun of us.That´s becasue we got the Patagonia from them and all they have now is that thin strip of a country    :D

Bolaño doesn´t know a hoot about what a Boca *fan* is -if you please!-I repeat *fan* !!!!  A Boca fan is a hooligan ,they wouldn´t know how to write their names.

BOCA, my Best Enemy and Co-patriot:am I not right? and yes, I  had a wonderful time.

MADC, welcome! where did you go *de veraneo* ,summerizing .Listen:  me and you better start the book together.I read lots of Hungarian lit. during the last month so I forgot all about Los Pasos Perdidos.I lost MY pasos in Cordoba and now I have to find my way back to civilization.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on February 10, 2008, 02:11:15 PM
WHERE IS THE LINK TO THE OLD ARCHIVED FORUMS??? There is one Book of the Month dedicated to Borges where this was commented on.-commented ON ,too English or not English at all?
[...]
NNYHAV, Master The Linkmeister,was it you who posted the link to the NYT archived forums ? It HAS to be you. Could you try it again,please? I´d love to re-read some parts of it, not mine,to be precise.
http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,35.msg58752.html#msg58752


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 10, 2008, 03:14:12 PM
Quote
where does AC call himsedf *wasp*!?

A couple times: once in the street before the Curator (translate Curator, please) he calls himself wasp-man and no-man.  I dont remember the other, my book went back a week ago, but I'm thinking now that he means social insect since there is an odd (to me) reference to nests neing burned later.

Quote
That translation is nefarious

I get that feeling all the time and I generally stay away from translated works because of it.

Quote
I was stunned that he needed to clarify what our LatAm lit. was.

We are all guilty, at least at first, of trying to force our norms across cultures.  I'm in the northeast and basically a loner in cultural pursuits but I know no one here reading lal, this group is my first venture.  Our library has a little Fuentes and GGM but that's it.  From other stuff, I know of the effect of North African culture on Latin America that can never be felt here.  I thought that link pointed it out quite well. 

Quote
Try skipping the rest and reading the last chapter.

I agree with that, even if I dont agree with what he says in the last chapter.  But again we may be having a problem with translation.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on February 12, 2008, 02:42:53 PM
NNYHAV,thank you.I knew you wouldn´t fail me Master the Linkmeister.

JOHN60, a *wasp* is a bee:

(http://)http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=wasp&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi


A curator is a *curador*,very simple. I don´t know if there is an older name for them.

Are you reading The Lost Steps ? The translation I callled *nefarious* is the one of the essay not the one of TLS.

I can´t believe that in the NE of the US the LatAm lit is not read.I thought this was the most intellectual region of your country. I have to admit that in Argentina most people  read the European and USAmerican writers.Well,I´ve been trying to adopt the Portuguese and the Spanish and -why not  - the Italians and calling this the Latin lit. forum.They are our forefathers but I suppose that LatAm lit. is a title that sells more  :)     


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on February 12, 2008, 02:45:14 PM
Let´s try this wasp:

http://nicksagan.blogs.com/nick_sagan_online/images/2007/04/02/wasp.jpg


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on February 12, 2008, 02:50:21 PM
Now:

(this better come out right,like Puge does):

http://www.solarexpert.com/fishing/wasp-large-2.jpg

 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on February 12, 2008, 02:53:09 PM
La gran P.!!!!! google trans.´`"@#&= little worms etc.

PUGET, how do you manage to post those pictures?

RMDIG,don´t get furious. Hey! I´ve been climbing my magic mountain this summer.No Uma Thurman,just the Fiery Pen.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Lhoffman on February 12, 2008, 04:30:57 PM
Martin....here is how you do it.  Copy the web address.  Then press the "insert image" icon....second from the right in the second row above.  Then, paste.  Your image should show.

(http://www.solarexpert.com/fishing/wasp-large-2.jpg)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 12, 2008, 07:46:10 PM
Quote
The translation I callled *nefarious* is the one of the essay not the one of TLS.

I understand, but in trying a work at many levels, I am very wary of translations.  For example:

Quote
a *wasp* is a bee:
A curator is a *curador*

The question I was asking is whether the words in AC's original Spanish deserve to be translated as wasp and Curator.  If, for example (the word translated as wasp-man) was translated as "bee-man" I would have thought "man controlled by social instincts".  Instead I probably went off base with "White Anglo Saxon Protestant".

If (the word translated as Curator) is not curador or if curador does not mean conservator, I'm lost.

The same with "your woman", used many times and italicized in English, makes no sense in the simple translation hoffman gave me above (not that she's not right). 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on February 13, 2008, 03:06:48 AM
I´ve been trying to adopt the Portuguese and the Spanish and -why not  - the Italians and calling this the Latin lit. forum.They are our forefathers but I suppose that LatAm lit. is a title that sells more  :)     

Martin - nice to see you! An extended vacation is surely the best kind of vacation ;-) I liked your idea of the adoption of the Portuguese and like it even more when you add in the Italians. There seems to be a certain limitation on mostly everyone getting books here so extending the reach could open things up a bit - I think it's a good idea. 

 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 13, 2008, 05:23:17 AM
TLS
Martin, the proverb about Methuselah is absolutely Biblical origin….the fact that in Argentina you also use the same meaning is very interesting and in some way reflects many ideas in TLS…
My husband was born in Argentina, but immigrated when he was 9 and his first language changed soon after arriving here.
BTW – my son, who travelled in most Latin America countries says that Argentina is the not to be compared with any other country…he loved Argentina!!!

John and Martin, I did not follow your advice, and I read the book until its lasts words.
I am very curious to read what you, John, think about the last chapter…what is it that you say you don't agree with?
I am a bit disappointed from this last chapter and in fact, I could tell it is going to be exactly as it is…
The turning point comes in the previous chapter in which the plane came to take the protagonist back to "civilization" and suddenly he is afraid from the jungle.
Rosario knows that this great love has its end and we find out she continue her life and finds another man, without any hesitation. Rosario is the real free woman. She chooses her partner and does not want to live in a world of possession (which leads to aggression…finally).
It is Ruth who seemed to be a free western woman, who cannot separate from her husband. It is here, in the Western world that the word Possession has its bad meaning.
I felt unease at some revelations the narrator-protagonist came to: civilization confronting the jungle.
I have the feeling that a bit of patronizing is in between the lines, against the tow worlds.
We cannot abolish all the good of technology etc, we all feel at ease with, yet the jungle has its virtues as much as it is dangerous to all man.
There is what we call post African or South America trauma!!
Those who were in the jungle know what I mean by that. After staying in the jungle for a while, I could not be, for a couple of months in malls, in close places etc…nothing psychotic, I can assure you….

I still wonder, and I have to think about it, why he is so much connected to the myth upon the Unbound Prometheus
Shelly wrote a poem upon Prometheus and he mentions it…well, I have to look for this poem that I once studied in university..


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 13, 2008, 06:00:14 AM
Shelly and Unbound Prometheus
here is a link to Shelly's play
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Texts/prometheus.html


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 13, 2008, 04:00:11 PM
Mir:
As I recall AC says, specifically, a composer cant go home again--"forces from the world left behind continued to operate", while other artists are not affected in the same way.  I dont believe that anyone with a grown cultural consciousness can return to a pristine state and still operate effectively.  Certainly our narrator couldnt.  He wants to limit that to composers (or possibly AC want to present the narrator as naive).

I'm not sure which Prometheus AC referred to.

AC calls the bull the animal of the sun.  It's in Wednesday, 13th.  Would someone please verify that in Spanish?  Most mythology identifies the bull with the moon.

What's the significance of Anabasis mentioned in the introduction?



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 15, 2008, 03:10:42 AM

Bound and Unbound Prometheus
I have some thoughts about the fact that the protagonist in TLS deals a lot with Unbound Prometheus.
Prometheus, in Aeschylus tragedy "Bound Prometheus" is the god who taught human kind to predict life, to read the present and use it. They learn to understand the significance of the seasons and use it for their need. They learn how to cultivate animals, build navigation, trade, medicine and in fact they learn how to take responsibility for their future. The fire symbolizes in this play the power and strength of taking the responsibility on life, the acquisition of technology, philosophy and science and from all this to create Hope for a better future.
The myth of Prometheus inspired many poets: Shiller, Goethe, Nietzsche and Camus.
Percy Shelly wrote a poetic play "Unbound Prometheus, which is a kind of an answer to Aeschylus play.
He Unbound Prometheus according to the Romantics ideas. Romantics is going back in time, is going back to Rome, Rome of great culture.
If Zeus punished Prometheus for stealing the fire and giving it to mankind and in this deed he changed the place of gods in the old times and the inferiority of mankind in front of the Greek gods, Prometheus of Shelly is freed from his bounds.

Carpentier's protagonist writes music according to the lyric of Shelly's play. Going back in time, to the jungle is in fact "writing the future" as he mentions several times….
I still think there is a lot to say about this choice, but one should read again the texts of Aeschylus and Shelly. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on February 15, 2008, 03:23:26 AM
Hi mringel - reading your posts and links with interest...

Martin - I don't really know BDH poet (read a lot of his posts) but I remember, in the last posts he made, he was excited about the possibility of reading the Cuban ;-) Italo Calvino...

Another Italian who seems associated, in some way, with Latin American literature is Umberto Eco.

Of course, there are many LatAm writers who qualify before the above but the problem of acquiring the texts is something to be considered. It brings to mind the idea of a list of globally available books; books that are to be found on every city's shelves, whether in translation, or in the original language. For example, most people can acquire GGM's 100 Years..., and Love in the Time of Cholera. Borges is readily available, I would imagine. Carpentier, less so - libraries possibly. Carlos Fuentes has some books in shops here, as does Cortazar, but not many. People like Piglia and say Amado are virtually impossible to get outwith of libraries and that usually means unlendable (sit down read, hand book back) but that can be difficult to do, say, after work.

A list of the ten or twenty most available Latin American literature works in the world, would be interesting. GGM would top that, I think.

I have this second-hand shop I go to over here and that's where I picked up The Chase by Carpentier. Coming across stuff like that is pure luck.

Back to the Italians - I've yet to read Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum and have a copy to hand, if anyone would like to read it at some point.
  



  


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 15, 2008, 10:49:32 PM
I'll talk about FP page by page and whenever you want.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on February 19, 2008, 02:50:07 AM
I'll talk about FP page by page and whenever you want.

Ok - I'm about 50 pages in...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 19, 2008, 12:39:43 PM
I must confess that I've read this a few times, the last as recent as a few weeks ago.  If you'll lead maybe someone else will be interested.  I have my copy at hand and just scanned the first 50.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 19, 2008, 02:19:19 PM
Beppo and John,
I have a copy of Umberto Eco's but I am not sure I'll have the time to read it now.
Pity,,,let's see how many will be here...
John, I am still waiting to read your comments about the last chapter of TLS
Miriam


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 19, 2008, 03:45:36 PM
mir

I thought I answered you back at 870.  My book has been returned to the library.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on February 20, 2008, 03:16:42 AM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Foucault_pendulum_animated.gif)

Superstition brings bad luck.
          —Raymond Smullyan, 5000 B.C., I.3.8

(Ok John - may be slow due to work...)



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on February 22, 2008, 02:12:47 AM
I enjoyed The Lost Steps and still wondering about it (the text lifted from The Odyssey, for example) ...

'Behind every great man there is a great woman':

http://noticias.notiemail.com/noticia.asp?nt=12018319&cty=200



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 22, 2008, 08:39:41 AM
Beppo,
'Behind every great man there is a great woman'
Alejo Carpentier is one of those men...
Well, I wonder if all of us feel "fed up" with TLS. I feel there is a lot more to say, read and comment.
I'd like to read more of you people.
Or else, we may vote for a new book.
Martin, where are you? working hard?



Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: rmdig on February 23, 2008, 10:44:47 AM
mringel --

Why "fed up"?  I haven't been following this thread.  I have a copy of the book but haven't read it.  Are readers finding it less intriguing, etc. than they thought it would be.

beppo --

Like you, I get lucky now and then and find hard-to-find books. 

Top 10 Latin American books?  Not sure where these rank, but I've read them and they're worth reading.

Chronicle of a Death Foretold -- Marquez (almost any book by him should make the list with the exception of Memoirs of My Melancholy Whores)

El Senor Presidente - Asturias (also his "Banana Trilogy")

The Book of Imaginary Beings - Borges (and pretty much anything else he wrote)

Under the Volcano - Lowry (I know, he isn't Latin American, but it's set in Mexico and it's good)

The Stones of Chile - Neruda (and pretty much everything else he wrote)

Epitaph for a Small Winner - Machado de Assis

I've run out of time.  More later.





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 23, 2008, 01:57:02 PM
rmdig:

Lowry is a great suggestion and I've made it here before to no avail.  The Lost Steps was suggested way back probably before December, got very little play even tho it could be discussed on many levels.

I see no reading action at all in the forums now, except History, maccorgin was a great loss as he kept things going.
Does anyone have his email address?  I've lost it.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: nnyhav on February 23, 2008, 03:10:06 PM
Top Ten? After Borges, there can only be Cortázar's Hopscotch, then the pack:
Bolaño's The Savage Detectives (at least til 2666 is Englished)
Garcia Marquez's One Hundred Years of Solitude
Sábato's Of Heroes and Tombs
Cabrera Infante's Three Trapped Tigers
Roa Bastos' I, The Supreme
But that's only seven, which brings Arlt to mind, and then there's Carpentier, and Piglia, and Bioy Casares, and Saer, and Aira, and I'm already over well over ten, many of whom hail from Buenos Aires, the city I feel exiled from despite never having been there ...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 24, 2008, 12:10:28 AM
rmdig,
I suppose it is the holidays to "blame" for the silence of this forum, or at least it was less alive than it was at the begining of the discussion upon TLS.
I recommend reading the book, as it is a book with many levels and it confront the reader with many faces of being a man, a woman, civilization and nature etc. etc.

John,
Lawry is a great suggestion also for me.
As for the email of Maccorgin, I used to have it too, but its been a while since we've mailed.
I know macd has it and I can write to her.
Where do you want to recieve it?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 24, 2008, 12:21:08 AM
John,
I found maccorgin's mail
of course I don't feel allowed to write it here....


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: rmdig on February 24, 2008, 12:44:01 PM
mringel and johnr --

Years before I had ever heard of Malcolm Lowry's Under the Volcano, I had an album recorded by Jack Bruce not long after the prototypical power trio Cream -- Eric Clapton, Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker -- had broken up.  The album is called Harmony Row.  One of the songs on the album is The Consul at Sunset. You can listen to the song at Youtube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLhWFv0vsY4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLhWFv0vsY4)


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 24, 2008, 01:15:40 PM
mir: you can send me or anyone else a personal message by clicking on the icon furthest to the right just above the ignore icon.  isnt that nice.


<---- how close did I get?


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: beso1 on February 24, 2008, 10:44:07 PM
Martin-or those who speak Spanish-what is the word for commodities? What is the word for IV drip? Thanx


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 25, 2008, 01:19:53 AM
John,
I did it
Let me know if you got it.

rmdig
Thank you for the link
I read Lowry long time ago and the music is a goos nostalgy.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: rmdig on February 25, 2008, 06:26:45 AM
mringel --

"a goos nostalgy"?  Translation, please.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on February 25, 2008, 07:14:19 AM
rmdig,
A GOOD NOSTALGY....
A tiny error can bring many interpretations...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on February 26, 2008, 02:46:27 AM
rmdig & nnyhav - thanks for the book suggestions...

johnr60 - I'm about 200 into FP now and quite enjoying it...





Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on February 26, 2008, 10:16:39 AM
BESO, Hi! guess what *commodities* translation  is *comoditis*!!!

JOHN60, and *curador* is also ,as you said a *conservador*.Tell me in what chapters (days) of the book are the words *wasp* and *curator* mentioned so I can look them up in my copy.

HOFFMAN


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on February 26, 2008, 10:31:10 AM
HOFFMAN,thanks for the tip on posting pictures.As soon as I have a good picture I´ll try it.

BEPPO,if you take a look at the B.A. telephone directory you´ll be really surprised there is a 70% of Italian surnames,therefore:Eco would be fine in here...and any other Italian.

NNYHAV, thanks for the link to the old forums.You feel an exile from B.A.,well, I feel an exile from the US,maybe we can sweep lives.

MYRIAM, yes! I´m working like a slave,I am building on top of the store another show-room and a new loft for me and the FP (not Foucault´s).The Inefable Fiery Pen.It´s lots of work but very creative. Business is doing well in my country in spite of the K dinasty.

this is a noo sotta post created by the Apossel: half here and half up there it is based in Hopscortch -cortazar-THIS IS


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on February 26, 2008, 10:38:25 AM
posting when i´m supposed to set the example is hard.now i´ll try to re-read the last chapter of TLS behind a big black accounting book.then i´ll give you my most illustrious opinion.

the K/SF will benefit with 1M U$A him or her whomsoever discovers who is behind my avatar.

kloo 1: he is the Sunlight

kloo 2: he is Argentine

next kloos are available for those who send several monies to my usual caimann islands account 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: johnr60 on February 26, 2008, 11:31:45 AM
martin:  my book had to be returned, but it's right near the first rainstorm in NYC

beppo:  the Brazil part seems out of context.  I think Eco lived there for a bit.  Maybe he had some stuff he wanted to use up

I'm halfway through The Island of the Day Before--much better than I remembered it


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on February 26, 2008, 01:13:40 PM
http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,51.msg73333.html#msg73333


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on February 26, 2008, 02:28:58 PM
I dropped into the library just there and found a copy of Under the Volcano. Also picked up a copy of The PARIS REVIEW Interviews vol. I which contains the interview with Borges....


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on February 26, 2008, 02:39:08 PM
martin:  my book had to be returned, but it's right near the first rainstorm in NYC

beppo:  the Brazil part seems out of context.  I think Eco lived there for a bit.  Maybe he had some stuff he wanted to use up

I'm halfway through The Island of the Day Before--much better than I remembered it

I read Island of the Day Before a few years ago and enjoyed it.

Was a little out with my page count - I've just reached chapter 23 and the section termed HESED and sure enough it's right at the beginning of the Brazil episode. Hopefully have something to say about it at some point.

You mentioned the moment of the thunderstorm in NYC - it seems to me a crucial moment in The Lost Steps.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on February 26, 2008, 06:43:19 PM
(http://ocio.quitua.com.mx/blogs/media/xul.jpg)

Martin

I image-googled the I-net for Xul Solar...

And came up with the above photo...

If you like it better than the profile pic you've posted...

Then simply go to your profile page and paste this link:

http://ocio.quitua.com.mx/blogs/media/xul.jpg

It's a somewhat clearer image than the one you've got.

I'll leave it in my profile pic for awhile.

I'm bored with Tennessee Williams anyway...


 ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: pugetopolis on February 27, 2008, 06:03:36 PM

PUGET, how do you manage to post those pictures?


You're welcome, Martin...

Arrivederci...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: rmdig on February 28, 2008, 01:37:29 PM
beppo --

So are you reading Under the Volcano, or did you just want to take a look at it? 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on March 01, 2008, 04:01:48 PM
martinbeck3,

I just talked to a sculptor friend of mine, and forgot to ask her if she knew bodhipoet's whereabouts.  I wasn't sure whether you were speaking of his North Carolina address or his Albuquerque, New Mexico winters because they have quite an artists' colony there. My youngest sister and her daughters drop in there very often, as well as my Italian friend who spends longer periods of time there when she isn't at Carrara for the marble.


tbc...


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on March 01, 2008, 05:05:44 PM
Ps, martinbeck3

I am familiar with the "como Che" or "cómo,Che"," you,what´s that?".We call each other *che*, *hey, you*.,
as well as the Mapu-che  or Thuel-che, tribes.  I think that it is probably all right to refer to them as "Indians;los indios" which is  dignified reality and term; whereas the modern politic of  saying "Native" is not an improvement  but rather  a "put down".   Although North Americans use the now approved description: Native Americans, in the US, and the Canadians refer to Indigenous Peoples, in neither case have the relationships between "whites" and the indigenous tribal groups improved.

People that I know from various parts of  Mexico, which is on the North American continent, have taught me that and regularly refer to themselves as La Raza( a political organization that outright refers to their racial origin) and los indios. Yet the refusal comes from the other side of southwestern states that established,the border, with statehood, where they were previously territories centuries after the indigenous settled all of these territories. It is the political arrangement of hierarchies in Washington,D.C and Mexico City that has led to the non-recognition of Mexico as a reality in North America as much as the Canadian provinces. (Of course the Indigenous People of Canada are people who control rather than merely contain their aggravation. They have a similar experience, like that of the Mexican border states where tribes have always lived on both sides of the "border". The Canadian tribes also  have lived on both sides  of, or in, the border states, at will.

The attitude from the Washington,D.C.side of the issue has directly caused frankly "Indian"revolutions of governments in South America, which is most probably going to continue as an ongoing  political exercise of indigenous authority, if pressure continues to come from partisans of the outgoing administration in Washington,D.C. .

Which reminds me, it occurred to me that the books various posters are looking for are at universities in North America, if not always in their bookstore, within the "Circles" such as the Bolivian Circle; I will have to ask my youngest sister(again?) who frequents that circle on occasion because Bolivia has provided(Hugo has) so much assistance in our cold climate for the elderly who also need the eye-care that he offers which our government tends to renege on providing if they can get out of it.  It is "politic" of him to have done so, no matter the disagreeable partisan tone that yet remains in Washington,D.C.

Did you know, for instance that A. Carpentier, as Cuban with a French father and a Cuban mother, has origins in "Black" Negro French Haiti when waives of upper-middle class light-skinned Francophone "blacks" hurriedly headed for Cuba during the Revolt against the French; many of them then proceeding on to New Orleans only to encounter  "new rules" as Bill Maher likes to say,new laws defining how many Free Blacks were allowed in New Orleans at any one time!  This pushed many of them back into settling for Cuba, as they were a professional and military-class that gave New Orleanians a "crise de nerves". It should be interesting to see how this all shakes out and then sets up in the period immediately before us.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: Beppo on March 02, 2008, 06:38:51 AM
beppo --

So are you reading Under the Volcano, or did you just want to take a look at it? 

I'll probably try and read it after Foucault's Pendulum. From reading the intro it seems it may be quite a difficult read...

Thanks for the link to youtube - quite liked it.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: mringel on March 02, 2008, 07:48:49 AM
Culture
I am reading a book  written by a Dutch author – Arthur Japin – THE TWO HEARTS OF KWASI BOACHI.
The book is based upon a real story of two African princes in the 19th century who were brought to Netherlands in order to "civilized" them.
It is a very interesting book and when I am reading it I find out so many links to Carpentier's TLS.
One of the things that this author writes, in the name of one of these princes I'd like to bring here:
The more a mankind becomes civilized the more he is yearning to the wild nature. History is full with strong yearning to the Past.
It appears in Art, in fashion, furniture and architecture, in Poetry and faith, mankind hold tightly, again and again in what had been. Even the Greeks, that all who came after them envied their simplicity and their closeness to the roots of human existence, yes, even they felt that they missed the real Old Arcadia.
 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on March 02, 2008, 02:27:09 PM
PUGET, the KSF honoring Its mitee word is going to send thee thy prize for finding out that Xul Solar was Xul Solar himself.

Therfore,and so that you can get your multipel money,please send your credit card number and code. 


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on March 02, 2008, 02:34:50 PM
MADUPONT, guess what? I get so tangled up with those funny politically correct names formpeople.I think they make discrimination more obvious.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on March 02, 2008, 02:42:01 PM
Mr.The Moderator,I most certainly take up the title of Moderator in this here forum.

So I say all of you LatAm lit. readers, posters, lurkers and whatnot,submit every word and see werther,weather,no fk! WETHER or not I allow you to rite or not.

As from today if all of thee do not send fill up the form down below all your posts shalt be smitten and disappeared foreve  into thick air:

name:
surname:
petname:-your not your kitten-
petname when making lvoe,i mean love:
credit card " ,i mean #
code:

thank you and watch out look behind your guilty backs the Grate Inkwisiter is called to do His dootie.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on March 02, 2008, 03:01:25 PM
MADDIE,Carpentier´s *El reino de este mundo*(the Kingdom of this World) is all about the slave revolution in Haiti and how they left for Cuba and the US.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: martinbeck3 on March 02, 2008, 05:05:55 PM
A rainy Sunday afternoon is a good time to summarize what The Lost Steps meant to me.

I thought Gracia Marquez had invented everything and now I see he was Carpentier´s favorite child and so are the rest of very good and not-as-good LatAm writers, like Vargas Llosa and Isabel Allende.So Carpentier had drawn the route they just had to follow in the last line of the introduction to "El reino de este mundo" when he says ,"What is the history of America but a chronicle of the real-maravilloso?". I wonder about Cortázar,though he and Bioy Casares practice the real-fantastico,sort of like Borges-who came way before any of them-,the difference is that in these writers the baroque is absent.

Carpentier pointed out that the baroque already existed in LatAm´s art when the conquistadores arrived.The best example would be Aztec art.The conquistadores themselves were living in Baroquian times-unsure,fearful years when,after Galileus and Copernicus everything Europe believed was put to the test so they could easily relate to this art.

In TLS we have this *trope* of the journey that changes lives.Like a road movie but Latam?  :-\

The nameless character is bored with his life -is it NYC,it could be B.A. for all the difference- so he is sent by the curator to look for some ancient intruments to add to the museum collection-Do I detect a touch of *mean rich countries plundering poor countries riches*? Well,it´s true,isn´t it? Look at the England-Egyptian affair.

So there he is sailing and walking the jungles as baroque as these places are so dense and impenetrable.He changes his wife and his lover for the primitive *tu mujer*Rosario and all is very good until he sees that once he has entered this jungle he can´t return.He can´t return to his old self.He can return but as a new and better person when he understands -last chapter- that he has a commitment as an artist and a man. On the other side he has to recognize that the world of Santa Monica is forbidden to him because he is a writer and an artist has to live in the present and more so try new -future- ways to express himself.That is why I said before that the last chapter is the story´s Ars Poetica. 

O.K. now I´ll send my copy to be binded (?) because as I read its pages fell off one by one.

BTW: JOHN, the *wasp* in that context was a bee *avispa* and the curator a *curador*.Carpentier used those same words.


Title: Re: Latin American Literature
Post by: madupont on March 02, 2008, 07:47:24 PM
MADDIE,Carpentier´s *El reino de este mundo*(the Kingdom of this World) is all about the slave revolution in Haiti and how they left for Cuba and the US.


Yes, it "is all about"  but leaves out some of the  Revolutionaries; according to the critics who study this literature; that's why I say universities here have these books for popular courses as this literature has become popular and is being reprinted by publishing houses, although the novels are not popular with the average reader  who reads a lot of books in Manhattan for instance.

Basically, because it was a Revolution against the French Empire, the revolution began among the blackest slaves; in a top down order of French whites at the top of the aristocracy, Creoles of some French and some lighter-skinned racial mixture, gradually darkening  because it is always the bottom of the scale that is the field worker who begins the revolution.  If you recall Josephine Beuharnais, the wife of Napoleon, was a Creole from Martinique(?) who was widowed. The new Black order was presided over by a Black president of Haiti which was formerly Santo or Saint Domingue.

The free coloured of the military class who arrived in New Orleans, gens de couleur libre  functioned in military units in the war against the British of 1812.   They too had black slaves, a little known topic that was written about in a novel by a Richmond,Virginia journalist, Edward P. Jones, The Known World.  The slaves who ran off into the back country, either to the land belonging to Marigny plantation north east of the Vieux Carre nd whose owner gambled away his land