Escape from Elba

Health => Fitness and Nutrition => Topic started by: Admin on April 16, 2007, 08:54:55 PM



Title: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Admin on April 16, 2007, 08:54:55 PM
Share your opinions on exercises and diets.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: jbottle on April 25, 2007, 09:59:11 PM
Recommend several almonds in the afternoon to keep the mind limber.

Jumping jacks, as well as isometric excercises and other mild calisthentics keep the constituition sound.

Keep a variety of friuts and vegetables as close friends:  Do not heed their advice.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: JL...W on May 08, 2007, 12:51:32 PM
Genes Take Charge, and Diets Fall by the Wayside

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/health/08fat.html?ei=5070&em=&en=d01b636a50af5ba2&ex=1178769600&pagewanted=all

Interesting article there from an excerpt of Gina Kolata's new book Rethinking Thin: The New Science of Weight Loss — and the Myths and Realities of Dieting

From the article:

There is a reason that fat people cannot stay thin after they diet and that thin people cannot stay fat when they force themselves to gain weight. The body’s metabolism speeds up or slows down to keep weight within a narrow range. Gain weight and the metabolism can as much as double; lose weight and it can slow to half its original speed.

The experiment that demonstrated this was apparently a "one off".   If the naturally thin people had been put through successive trials of gaining weight, would they become more successful at remaining fat? I suspect so. There's something especially insidious about yo yoing.

According to the Amazon review, Kolata's book takes on the weight loss industry:

In her final—and perhaps most surprising—chapter, Kolata blasts those in the obesity industry—such as Jenny Craig and academic obesity research centers—who are invested in promoting the idea that overweight is unhealthy and diet and exercise are effective despite a raft of evidence to the contrary. This book will change your thinking about weight, whether you struggle with it or not.

Too bad the NYT didn't pick that one to excerpt.

JL


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Dzimas on May 14, 2007, 05:37:25 AM
I guess not too many people keeping up on fitness and nutrition.  I love the GAIAM yoga DVD's, especially those with Rodney Lee.  I can sure feel the difference.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: jbottle on May 22, 2007, 09:28:22 PM
I can't knock yoga, haven't tried it, but I can't express the relief that isometric excercise gives me around the office.  In combination with a light regimen of push-ups, sit-ups, unsalted nuts, and the occasional apple, one can find the waistline more trim and the mind limber for late afternoon commerce.  When space is available, a number of sucessive somersaults tend to reset the sense of balance and create a healthy dizziness, which might be remedied by a smart vodka soda to reset the limbic system and general vigor.  Use the stairs when the destination is fewer than four floors, do the crossword to deter intellectual ambivalence:  Take pride in one's posture and stand closer to the business adversary than comfortable for he or she, after a mild retreat suggest that a cocktail may be in order.  Inquire about University and familial ties, a short nap after Cheeseburger Day is recommended.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: pontalba on May 28, 2007, 11:27:38 AM
There was an article on strength training on CNN yesterday that was pretty interesting.  I've read something along these lines before, but this article really laid it out.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/diet.fitness/05/25/strength.training.reut/index.html

I hope it's ok to quote part of the article?
Quote
NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Strength training may not only make older adults' muscles stronger, but younger as well, a small study suggests.

It's well known that resistance exercises improve muscle strength and function in young and old alike, but the new research suggests that strength training also affects older muscles on the level of gene expression -- essentially turning back the clock on muscle aging.

The study, published in the online journal PLoS One, looked at whether strength training affects the "gene expression profile" in older adults' muscle. Genes hold the instructions from which the body manufactures proteins; gene expression refers to the processes that translate these instructions into proteins.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on June 24, 2007, 02:49:41 AM
Short quotes are usually acceptable and you're more than well documented...


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: jbottle on June 29, 2007, 11:51:02 PM
Intellectual fitness may be augmented by the occasional word-jumble; to vary the regimen of isometrics and jumping-jacks, throw in the occasional somersault to quicken the gymnastic reflex.  At parties introduce your guests to all strangers, demonstrate the shoulder roll after 10:00PM.  Martinis keep the mind nimble but may be too salty for those with high blood-pressure.  Never turn down any offering of food unless determined for unrepentant intoxication and ridicule.  Try to complement the female of the species by commenting on various items of couture:  "I really like your dress, that's a nice color on you..." is a pleasant parting remark while you feed vodka to the more reptilian senses.  One good retort when a male of the species is talking about a car he admires is to say "Yeah, I test-drove one of those but I thought the handling imprecise and the styling dated...but, nice car..."  It's never polite to fire up a cigar or marijuana cigarette in mixed company.  For cigars, you may ask the host:  "Is there somewhere I could smoke this cigar, is the garage OK?"  For marijuana cigarettes, show the host the joint, look pointedly into her eyes and say:  "Is it cool?"  Either way, the host should you proper direction.  As an icebreaker offer to be the first one to drink directly from the vodka bottle, or demonstrate a proven stretching routine.  Claim to have invented calling "Target" "tar-jay" and slur your words.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 02, 2007, 09:41:59 AM
A strict regimen of whole grains, lentils, and multiple reps of the abdominal crunch earn you the right to ice cream in the evening.   That's my footnote.

Oh....and most brands of bottled water are tap water.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: kitinkaboodle on July 02, 2007, 01:36:04 PM
Dance, dance, dance...

Enough to sweat, sweat, sweat

Then you can eat, eat, eat and also

drink, drink, drink!


Cheers!


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 03, 2007, 12:52:30 PM
KITIN, this is the newest on nike dancing in Iraq:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czlVpKgOAmQ

I warmly recommend it.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: kitinkaboodle on July 03, 2007, 01:29:47 PM
Martin!
You are too funny...love it!  I move a bit more traditionally classical, which is nowhere as amusing (most of the time).


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on July 03, 2007, 01:40:15 PM
Wow, can she ever bust a move!!! :o


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: jbottle on July 04, 2007, 02:15:34 AM
Execute a brief shoulder roll before shaking hands with sales associates:  Not only will they know you are all about business, but that you are in business for hard late-night partying.  Try making unusual oevertures to their presumed guests, and grab somebody's ass.  It's a party, shit gets broke.

But, if it's not a party, don't do that.  Rub on your goatee, and say something like:  "I'm going to have to get back to you on that, Charles," whether or not you are good with numbers, and whether or not his name is Charles.  Propose a toast and pass out on the island in the kitchen in your own vomit; or, more subtly, pee into your own mouth and leave in the host's Acura TL and wrap it around a tree.

Either way:  You've partied and made new friends.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: jbottle on July 04, 2007, 02:17:50 AM
I fucking hit 300 like arod and those guys from that thing from that medieval thing.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 05, 2007, 10:43:50 AM
Artificial exercise is unnecessary.  Just walk places, do aforementioned shoulder rolls, and occasionally reach down with knees only slightly bent, to adjust one's laces or buff the shoes with a small cloth carried for that purpose.  When out and about, engage in understated pilates-like movements of the torso and pick up objects for no reason, as often as possible, holding them with the arm at an angle until a slight burn is felt.  If you own a medium-sized dog, pick it up and carry it around every so often.  A child is an okay substitute, though it may present hygiene issues.  Finally, achieve orgasm once or twice a week, for boosting the immune system and keeping the head from being bolted on too tightly.



 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on July 09, 2007, 12:15:21 AM
That explains it; it is so much clearer now why you said that you didn't get the point in my review of outstanding points in The Good German. Different strokes for different folks.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 09, 2007, 10:28:29 AM
:-)

Was it the dog toting, the sex, the shoe buffing, or the shoulder rolls that you believe led me astray in my search for meaning, Mad?

Mainly, I was recovering from an ill-timed nap.  Today, rereading your thoughts on TTG, I had less difficulty getting your general drift. 

Maybe all health regimens rest on the foundation of proper doses of rest.



 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on July 09, 2007, 01:34:09 PM
That's okay, what I sent you today was a  critical acclaim straight out regarded as spoof which has all the same criteria as TGG. I have a distinct feeling that Soderbergh couldn't make up his mind whether what he had was a drama or a spoof derived from the sources he was emulating although he is just the latest experimenter with the technology of this film genre.  Looking back it is periodical:2006,1992, and Orson Welles(TTM) had to be in the early Fifties? Welles had however effected this look from the point where he gave up theatre(and radio!)and began shooting film. Still and all, I don't think he was as serious about The Third Man as some people would like to think  when they are pulled into the mood he is projecting, as most often he has a very tongue in cheek attitude about the humor that he picks up in the work he undertakes.

They are all directing productions in order to approximate the early concepts of German Expressionist film-makers, Fritz Lang, Murnau, even dare I see it --if you ever get the chance to see them, Leni Riefenstahl's output as propaganda in praise of the Third Reich.

Lang in particular provides more clarity in his stark lighting contrasts than Soderbergh can achieve, for the latter is more taken in by Orson Welles and the film-makers of the 1940s with the Casablanca ending, I kept thinking, what is he doing?(Soderbergh) giving not inadvertent praise to a film classic while allowing dialog to be put in the mouth of Blanchett that is going to be considered unforgivable out in L.A.?

The Orson occasional fuzzy effect, used around some of his actors in TTM which was otherwise notably stark lighting, Soderbergh decides to use in his crowd scene at the end where Cate collapses over the body of her husband, Christian Brandt, who has just been assassinated by the former Gestapo policeman we first met in the stacks when Clooney checks with the American (but Jewish) officer in charge of following down these cases of trapped Nazis and collaborators. George does a double take,at the presence of the big ugly German, and the American officer responds, "That's okay, he doesn't understand a word of English."


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on July 09, 2007, 10:52:11 PM
Consider that post,"Food for thought".  Considering the length, however, it is a bit much liking pigging out.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 10, 2007, 09:44:15 AM
It's sort of a given, when a character says of another, "[pronoun/name] doesn't understand a word of English," that that character is completely fluent in English.  In a way, it's become a sort of clanker, because it now tends to make you think the writer has pulled his line off of a dusty old shelf.

I love it when people find clever ways to digress.  Food for thought --- ha, ha!  I especially enjoy digressions in the film forum, where someone is completely off the subject of cinema, but finds some obscure film reference to tie in with whatever they're chattering about.  Or one can do as Oilcanbody has been doing for years, which is to connect any digression to an excerpt of dialog from The Big Lebowski.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on July 10, 2007, 12:57:35 PM
I thought of you, Barton, as I toted my 17 lb mini schnauzer up the steep hill to my house yesterday when he rat to greet a woman trying to walk her dogs.  I could fell the burn!


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 11, 2007, 10:14:13 AM
17 lb. is a good starting weight.   If the dog is not available, a  large jar of pickles from one of the huge discount warehouses will also serve.  The cumbersome shape and the necessity of not dropping ensure a solid training session.

My daughter actually used to do this to me -- part of her unique sense of humor.  When we were in the grocery store to just get a couple staples, she would go and find the largest jar of pickles possible (none of us eats pickles, you see) and pretend that this was to be our principal purchase.  After walking a short ways with it, she would feign exhaustion and demand that I carry the pickles the rest of the way.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on July 11, 2007, 06:22:56 PM
Intellectual fitness may be augmented by the occasional word-jumble; to vary the regimen of isometrics and jumping-jacks, throw in the occasional somersault to quicken the gymnastic reflex.  At parties introduce your guests to all strangers, demonstrate the shoulder roll after 10:00PM.  Martinis keep the mind nimble but may be too salty for those with high blood-pressure.  Never turn down any offering of food unless determined for unrepentant intoxication and ridicule.  Try to complement the female of the species by commenting on various items of couture:  "I really like your dress, that's a nice color on you..." is a pleasant parting remark while you feed vodka to the more reptilian senses.  One good retort when a male of the species is talking about a car he admires is to say "Yeah, I test-drove one of those but I thought the handling imprecise and the styling dated...but, nice car..."  It's never polite to fire up a cigar or marijuana cigarette in mixed company.  For cigars, you may ask the host:  "Is there somewhere I could smoke this cigar, is the garage OK?"  For marijuana cigarettes, show the host the joint, look pointedly into her eyes and say:  "Is it cool?"  Either way, the host should you proper direction.  As an icebreaker offer to be the first one to drink directly from the vodka bottle, or demonstrate a proven stretching routine.  Claim to have invented calling "Target" "tar-jay" and slur your words.

Rules for a successful life J?   


Sounds good to me...


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on July 11, 2007, 06:24:46 PM

Oh....and most brands of bottled water are tap water.


when so they are additionally filtered however -- so buy a filter


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on July 11, 2007, 06:30:52 PM
I thought of you, Barton, as I toted my 17 lb mini schnauzer up the steep hill to my house yesterday when he rat to greet a woman trying to walk her dogs.  I could fell the burn!

Presumably you meant you could "Feel the Burn"

"Fell the Bum" is what you were no doubt planning to do with the aforementioned Schnauzer and therefore the Freudian slip is completly understandable


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on July 11, 2007, 06:35:08 PM
multiple reps of the abdominal crunch earn you the right to ice cream in the evening.   That's my footnote.


most of us have some sort of treat we give ourselves I suspect...

When I complete my morning run by 6am, I treat myself to a small, non-fat, 2 pump Mocha on the way into work.   The calories are approximately equivalent to the first 20 minutes of the run.   

No Run...no mocha


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: jbottle on July 11, 2007, 11:10:56 PM
A bannana provides both elecrolytes and betrays a Freudian sex-ambivalence to co-workers, while the apple keeps the doctor away, the daily bannana keeps them guessing.  Isometrics and a few raw nuts keep the mind limber.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 12, 2007, 10:09:17 AM
Only two nuts are sufficient to keep the mind occupied.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on July 12, 2007, 10:14:05 AM
I think that rule applies mostly to men. 
Sorry, couldn't help it.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 14, 2007, 11:49:27 AM
That was the general drift.  Speaking of nuts, does anyone have a favorite nut (and we should allow the various seeds, like almonds, that are also called "nuts" in the common parlance)?  Though I enjoy a good walnut or cashew, I think the pecan may be the greatest of the nuts.  I should add that the pistachio also has a rich and delicate flavor but falls short as an eating nut because of the labor involved.  It is, however, a superior flavoring nut.  Similarly, the almond, which has a taste and texture not unlike woodchips when eaten whole, does better as a flavor in something else.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 14, 2007, 12:49:43 PM
Barton,

My favorite nut is a seed: Sunflower seeds. I prefer to buy just the kernel so I can pop a handful or two into open mouth when the mood strikes.

Back when I was teaching, the teachers all gathered at the same table in the lunch room. Some at the lunch the students got, some brought their own lunches. A lot of camaraderie was exchanged. The male teacher all sidelined in coaching the various teams to supplement the small salaries. One of the men, who taught business and economics, was single and approaching middle age. His mother made his lunch for him every day, and pressed and starched his always impeccable shirts. He always had a banana in the lunch box.

One day, a spritely teacher took a notion, and sneaked into his lunch box. When he withdrew the banana from the lunchbox at the teacher's table, it came out sheathed in a condom. Needless to say, the students never learned why the teacher's table roared that day! For a long time afterward, the man gingerly stared into his lunchbox before withdrawing the ubiquitous banana, and for a long time, the female teacher laughed over McPete's brazen assault on his lunch box. Last summer McPete made her exit from this world. The world has been a duller place since her departure.

But back to bananas. I tend to eat them often, sliced over a big bowl of spoon-sized shredded wheat with bran, smothered in 2% milk, and it is a breakfast that truly keeps me until lunch time. It's said that the banana is a source of potassium which is important in controlling blood pressure. Blood pressure has been a concern for more than ten years now, and only full retirement from teaching brought it under control. I guess I could 'speriment a bit and test my blood pressure on the days I eat a banana compared to the days I eat raisin bran (which always necessitates an early lunch).



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on July 14, 2007, 04:13:20 PM
Sure am glad I finally decided to lurk at this discussion site.  You folks are really great at splaining stuff about food and exercise, not to mention how to act at gatherings (just in case I should ever come upon one).  And, spearminting with bananas?  Who'd of thought?  I'm certainly gonna be back here when there are new posts, even though I am 20 years past any notion of doing a cartwheel.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 14, 2007, 04:48:56 PM
Donot,

Glad y'all are 'special' happy l'arning 'bout t' way things be dun down south ways.

As to fitness, I joined Curves last December, and started out going twice a week. After time it was once a week. Then once every two weeks .... now, it's been a month since I've been ... with hubby spending time at the beach, I am busy, too busy to drive 20 minutes there, 30 minutes exercise, 20 minutes home, often with a side trip to the Walmart where I really get my excercise walking around the store. Maybe, when it cools down come September, I'll get back to it, but I have already decided to drop the membership at the end of the year. I was hoping for some socializing, but most of the time when I go, I am the only one there. Not at all what I wanted to do.

But, I have been a follower of good nutrition since I was in my twenties and first read Adele Davis. I've kept a good respect for getting enough protein although I'm not as keen on green salads like I should be. My boys grew up knowing that whatever ails you, taking a Vitamin C tablet will make it all right again. I remember when a crushed Vitamin C tablet on a spoonful of water would arrest my oldest son's asthma attacks without the expensive trip to the emergency room. Then, I learned that too much C and not enough calcium caused him to have nosebleeds without warning, so I got some calcium tablets and added them to his milk and other foods to be sure he got enough, and sure enough the nosebleeds came to an end. Vitamin B6 will end the blues that come with the monthly visitor, but does nothing for the severe cramping. B6 does nothing for the blues due to bipolar depression that set in at menopause. Neither does St. John's Wort. For that I have to take prescriptions from the doctor.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 15, 2007, 01:12:48 PM
Weez, I have some science background and some knowledge of food chemistry.  There are a lot of myths out there, but if we believe in them firmly we probably get a kind of placebo effect from what we eat.  Most tropical soils, for example, have been depleted of their potassium, so a modern banana isn't likely to be as good for potassium as a handful of raisins, or plums, or (non-tropical) nuts. 

The key mineral for blood pressure regulation is magnesium, so your affinity for sunflower seeds is a good one -- they are rich in magnesium.   I'm a sunflower seed eater, too, mainly because Agent Mulder likes them.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on July 15, 2007, 02:27:06 PM
Bart-

I'd love to here your opinion of the so-called "lemonade diet" to "detoxify" your system that my normally intelligent friend is going on this week.  She showed me this pamphlet she ordered from Barnes and Noble that was written 50 years ago.  Essentially one goes on a fast and drinks nothing but a concoction of lemon juice, water, cayenne pepper, and grade a maple syrup for 10 days.  The first thing you do is take a laxitive.

She got really annoyed when I told her that not only is she going to be depriving herself of the nutrients her body needs for 10 days (we only need 16% protein in our diet according to this quack, and it shouldn't be from animals.  Has it ever occurred to you that the animals we eat are vegetarian? - so the argument goes), she'd also be liable to have digestive complaints  and ulcerations around her mouth with all the acid and hot pepper she'll be drinking.  There are 2 tblsps of lemon juice per 10 ounces of water - seems like that would be enough to set your teeth on edge it's so acidic.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 15, 2007, 02:49:09 PM
I'd think the friend would be more likely to get blisters from the cayenne than have problems from the lemons.  But the reason this diet works is that lemons are diuretic.  In essence, your friend is losing water weight.  (The thining around the cayenne is that it revs up the metabolism....maybe so, maybe not.)

July is probably not the smartest time to force one's body into dehydration.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 15, 2007, 03:10:33 PM
Bart,

Thanks for the advice on the bananas. They do bulk up breakfast enough to keep me from eating an early lunch, but I will consider the raisin bran, which is my alternate cereal from the shredded wheat that I use with the bananas.

Good to know the sunflower seeds are food for blood pressue. I didn't know that magnesium is a factor. I take a daily senior milti-vitamin, so I am getting 100 mg of magnesium a day. I could supplement that if it makes a difference. But, I'd just as soon eat the sunflower seeds!

Since you know more of the science of foods that I do, let me ask you about the nutritive value of pickled red beets. When my nephew Taylor was little, he didn't like them, but we had them pretty often when he came for his weekends in the country sans parents. We convinced him that they had lots of iron and were good for his blood. Of course, as children do, he grew up and learned to read labels, and one time he came out to visit and point out that according to the label on the jar there were no nutrients whatsoever in red beets. I grew up eating red beets because they were supposed to be a good source of iron to build red blood.

Is there any nutritive value in those colorful roots?



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 15, 2007, 05:15:36 PM
Nutritional information on Beets, and pretty much anything else you can think of:

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20bu.html


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on July 15, 2007, 05:28:39 PM
... Essentially one goes on a fast and drinks nothing but a concoction of lemon juice, water, cayenne pepper, and grade a maple syrup for 10 days.  The first thing you do is take a laxitive.

I think the first thing I would do is throw up.  That's a horrible mix.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 15, 2007, 07:24:14 PM
Laurie,

Ahhhh. Thanks for the nutritional information on beets! They do indeed contain iron, just as my parents insisted. I forwarded the information to my nephew! Of course, he is now overweight, so the high carb content of the beets would not recommend them. But I feel vindicated!
I did not steer the child wrong on the nutritional value of beets for back when he was a normally slim young child.





Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on July 15, 2007, 07:46:13 PM
Beets have nucleic acid, keeps the brain-power in gear. Blue menopause was the reason for soy products I was told. But I only have menopause during divorce anxiety. The way to handle menopause is to go dancing(described in another forum, somewhere....)

Bananas as we found out in Immigration forum contain DOW causing sterility in banana workers from Central American banana growing regions.

Which is how we get to nuts. Almonds for cancer.  Pecans are from Georgia and I eat them in a pie about once a year if I remember at Mardi Gras, otherwise take as required in whatever recipes asks for a few pecans to be thrown in like a few cookies or a cake. Last year, I had a fabulous experience with pralines because even if they are not holding shape from lack of hardness, you can still eat them all yourself.

I prefer cashews and begin to cook Indian  food when that happens. Ismail Merchant or Madhura Jaffrey, preferably.

If one is still blue after that, drink Gota Kola. It will now rain because I did all the watering.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 15, 2007, 07:50:17 PM
Maddie,

If watering brought on the rain, we wouldn't be having this drought. I've been watering every other day, and there has been less than half an inch in about a month, maybe longer. My pepper plants are still the same size they were when I planted them in mid-May. No sign of flowers in all that time. And only one green tomato. Two of the plants are still as small as when planted. The others have gotten taller, but no fruit yet. And, the squashes have set blossoms, then they drop off and don't make little squashes. That despite all the watering I'm doing.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 15, 2007, 08:02:48 PM
Just had a great chuckle. I sent the link to the nutritional information on beets, and he wrote back:


"Weezo,

I never liked beets they taste like old wet socks soaked in a sewage plant"

I told him with word choices like that, he should consider a career in writing.





Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 16, 2007, 12:06:36 PM
Weezo, looks like you found some answers on beets.  Like most vegetables, they are not terribly nutrient-dense, but they do have some value.  The lemonade diet sounds horrible -- the body needs from .75 to 1.0 grams of protein per kilo of lean body weight, per day.  These figures are heavily debated, but direct experience can be your guide in such matters.  If you get cravings and have trouble concentrating, muscle cramps, bloating and/or weakness, then you have probably dropped below your protein needs.  Low protein causes the body to go into famine mode, which makes it hoard every calorie it gets, hence encourages weight GAIN, not loss. 

The thing about protein being hard on the kidneys (which many low-protein apostles loudly declare) is ridiculous, unless you are really a heavy meat-eater.  You can detoxify your body with one normal kidney, and most people have two, so there is adequate redundancy in our body's filtration/purification system.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on July 18, 2007, 10:54:51 PM
barton, thought of you and your famous "regimen" when I read this, thought it best to send it along before you resume your famous regimen:

"Keep Yourself on Track

By Keeping Track"
 
     A great tool for maintaining overall health is keeping a personal food diary.

     Whether you are just starting to eat healthier, or struggling say on the right track, incorporating a food diary into your plan is a great way to keep yourself on course.

     There is something about looking at your food intake in indisputable writing that helps you curb your bad food habits.

      Keeping a food diary will show you exactly how much you are eating, as well as documenting the types of food that make up the majority of your diet.

      Some people find it helpful to keep a food diary for a week or so before changing their eating habits to enable them to more accurately target problem areas.

     Understanding your weaknesses and preparing yourself to combat issues is a great step in maintaining a healthy relationship with food.

     There are no strict rules about how to keep a food diary. The important thing to remember is to write down everything that you eat.

     Remember, no one but you is going to see what is written in your food diary, so omitting snacks or other food items will mean that you are only lying to yourself.

     If you are serious about being healthier, it is critical that you understand exactly how much and what types of food your eating.

     Once you find out exactly what you eat you'll be better able to lay a strong foundation for better eating habits.

     When you get into the hang of keeping a food journal, you might want to consider expanding the information that you track.

     Along with food intake, tracking physical activity is a great way to compare how much you eat to how many calories you are burning.

     After you get the hang of it and want to take the next step it may also helpful to note the number of calories and nutritional information for the food you write down.

     Developing healthy eating habits has as much to do with what you eat as how much you consume.

    Once you have a good understanding of the Types of food you are eating, it will be easier to plan more balanced eating habits that help you stay in shape and be healthier.

Proper posture is vital both at work and at home.

     Posture plays an important part in preventing or managing back pain during any activity. Bad posture while sitting in an office chair, driving, or standing for long periods of time may lead to back pain.

     When standing it is important to maintain the natural curve of the spine in order to achieve good posture.

     The spine is similar to the letter S when viewed from the side and maintaining the two curves is what is key to proper posture.

· Your head should be directly over the shoulders     (chest out, head back)
· Keep Shoulders directly over your pelvis
· Tighten your abdominal muscles
· Tuck in your buttocks
· Your feet should be slightly apart, with one foot slightly ahead of the other, with your knees bent slightly.

    When you first attempt this posture if you are not already doing it, you may feel a bit awkward. Give it some time and it will begin to feel natural.

     It can sometimes be tiring and this can be due to weak spine muscles. Another cause of pain is prolonged standing on a concrete or hard floor. If you must do this, it is best to wear shoes with cushioning and good support.

     Often a rubber mat or cushioned mat can help. Using a mat and wearing the proper shoes are important steps to ease pressure on the back.

     While many of us are increasingly spending large portions of our day in front of a desk it is important to have the correct sitting posture.

     Bad sitting posture can result in back pain and neck pain. Most of this pain is avoidable and the first step is to make some simple adjustments.

     Adjust your chair to modify your sitting position from a forward leaning slump. The best position is to sit back in the chair and to use the chairs lumbar support to keep the head and neck erect.

     Your work surface should be elbow high. Two fingers should be able to slip under the bottom of your thigh. If this is not possible then a foot rest might correct this.

     The back of your chair should push your lower back forward slightly to offer lumbar support. Adjust your computer screen.

     Sit in your chair and close your eyes and relax. Open you eyes slowly and where your sight initially focuses is the proper placement of the center of your computer screen.

     This can be accomplished by using a screen stand or the tilt operation on many screens. The new flat panel screens make this a simple fix.

     Remember to periodically take stretching and walking breaks when sitting for long periods of time.
 
 

 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 19, 2007, 10:07:42 AM
Ha!

Re

"There is something about looking at your food intake...."

Fortunately, I rarely have the chance, as my meals stay down.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on July 19, 2007, 04:09:56 PM
Good one, there seem to be other implications to that so I will have to point out to the writer how that wording lends to other interpretations.


Title: Keeping a food diary
Post by: TrojanHorse on July 20, 2007, 04:10:52 PM
Calorie counter programs -- despite all their bad press -- are also excellent "diaries" for keeping track.   Many of them will track total percentages of carbs, protein, fat, etc  (some even salt, fiber, whatever).

It can be trully shocking to see what your regular, unchecvked intake looks like after one week...

I highly recommend it


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 22, 2007, 01:56:18 PM
Food Recall

Botulism has been found in people food - canned hot dog chili

See: http://www.nationalpetfoundation.com:80/foods/natural-balance.html



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 22, 2007, 02:36:33 PM
Canned hot dog chili sounds vile, even without botulism in it. 

What is it with the salt?  I am prone to a mild inner ear problem once in a while, and am encouraged to keep the salt intake down among other things.  One thing I can't fathom is canned soups and chilis which have about three times the salt needed to render a satisfyingly salty taste.  It would seem to me to be good business practice to just PUT IN LESS SALT and save the expense of all that salt.  Instead, companies will produce a lower salt variety which is available, as far as I can tell, at one market that is two hundred miles from wherever you live, and charge you EXTRA FOR PUTTING LESS OF SOMETHING IN IT.   What could these companies possibly have to lose by just putting in less salt?  400 mg, say, instead of 1200, per serving, will still taste pretty salty.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 22, 2007, 04:17:40 PM
Barton,

Salt is a preservative.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 22, 2007, 04:43:09 PM
Barton....I've always found it odd that it costs more to buy less processed foods.  I guess people are more willing to pay for convenience than they are to pay for quality. 

But, do you think the salt might aggravate the inner ear because it causes water retention?  If you are really craving salt, putting a few slices of lemon in your water may counteract the problem....and thre are always decongestants.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 22, 2007, 06:35:26 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Diet-Eating-Disorders-Midlife.html

Could anyone please explain why anorexics and bulimics get care, concern, and compassion while the obese get scorn, sarcasm, and stupidity directed at them.

Why will the same person who says to one who is obese, "It's just a matter of willpower; you can eat less if you try." will never say, "It's just a matter of willpower; you can eat more if you try." to an anorexic.

Is discrimination against the obese the last acceptable prejudice in the USA?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 22, 2007, 07:09:00 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Diet-Eating-Disorders-Midlife.html

Could anyone please explain why anorexics and bulimics get care, concern, and compassion while the obese get scorn, sarcasm, and stupidity directed at them.

Why will the same person who says to one who is obese, "It's just a matter of willpower; you can eat less if you try." will never say, "It's just a matter of willpower; you can eat more if you try." to an anorexic.

Is discrimination against the obese the last acceptable prejudice in the USA?

Anorexia is about will and control.  An anorexic who exerts more willpower is probably just committing suicide faster. 

Bulimia is a bit more complex than anorexia or obesity because it's usually not obvious that the bulimic has a problem.  They often look normal or even a little overweight.

Many insurance companies now offer help with obesity...discounts on gym memberships, weight watchers, nutritional counselling and the like.


Title: Lemonade Diet
Post by: desdemona222b on July 22, 2007, 07:36:28 PM
You guys aren't ready for what else I learned about the lemonade diet.  Not only do you consume nothing but the lemon, water, maple syrup, and cayenne pepper mixture for 10 days, but you also drink sea salt water everyday, which "detoxifies" your body (read:  it gives you intense, violent diarrhea).  The notion is that you are replacing all the bad with the good.  Aye God!  My friend was saying, "that's why you have to be so careful when you're going off the diet - you just introduce orange juice at first to get your body used to solid food again."  "You can even die from it if you're not careful."

She cancelled her plans when she realized you can't go on this diet and work both, but it all seems to make perfect sense to her - she gets mad when I try to say anything.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 22, 2007, 07:51:16 PM
http://forums.escapefromelba.com/index.php/topic,43.msg21094.html#msg21094

All that you say may or may not be true, but it does not address the attitude of SOCIETY toward each of the issues.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 22, 2007, 08:37:13 PM
Dessie,

Don't say anything. Don't preach. Be glad she decided against it and wait for the next miracle diet she digs up. If she wants to clean her system out, tell her to sign up for a colonoscopy, and she will end up clean as a whistle.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on July 22, 2007, 09:47:44 PM
I wouldn't call what I said preaching, just gentle questions and yes, I'll admit, perhaps one or two warnings -- then I just listened.



Title: Re: Lemonade Diet
Post by: pontalba on July 22, 2007, 09:59:03 PM
but you also drink sea salt water everyday, which "detoxifies" your body (read:  it gives you intense, violent diarrhea).  The notion is that you are replacing all the bad with the good. 
If it even gets that far, it makes you puke.  Fast.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on July 22, 2007, 11:10:34 PM
If it even gets that far, it makes you puke.  Fast.

I know.  I was saying, you know, that will dehydrate you, girl.  Apparently it's a weak solution - couple of tablespoons to 10 oz, something like that.  When Bart pointed out that lemon juice is a diurectic, I was flabbergasted.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 23, 2007, 10:02:03 AM
Weezo -- true, salt is a preservative, but one would think that thoroughly cooked and canned food would not require huge amounts of it.  There are many foods canned that are not salted, and they seem to hold up.

Whoever asked about the inner ear -- salt seems to mess it up in some people.  Piano tuners, some of them, get religious about reducing salt.  It's not just water retention, has something to do also with salt forming deposits inside the semicircular canals and mucking up hearing and balance.

Desdemona, your friend's proposed "diet" is a fast.  Most fasters will take orange juice, as it is replaces electrolytes and the vitamin C helps mitigate the muscle damage.  However, OJ has little salt, so a bit of sea salt actually does help, especially in preventing heart problems.  What your friend proposes however is extreme and, well, insane.  Fortunately, people are equipped generally to handle 10 days of such treatment, though I imagine she would pretty weak at the end of it.  A physical checkup first wouldn't hurt --- any heart or kidney problems could make her experiment pretty dangerous.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 24, 2007, 12:46:38 PM
You think you´re fit.

Now look at these two:turn on the vol.

BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5lN96dgt_Y


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 24, 2007, 01:03:54 PM
You think you´re fit.

Now look at these two:turn on the vol.

BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5lN96dgt_Y

This may be the closest thing to perfection I've ever seen.  Amazing!


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 24, 2007, 04:26:40 PM
mbeck,

You think you´re fit.

Now look at these two:turn on the vol.

BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!

ONLY IF YOU FIND BEAUTY IN ANOREXIA!

She's a living corpse; I don't really care how flexible she is.

If you want REAL beauty, I suggest you look at Queen Latifah.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 24, 2007, 08:40:02 PM
I dunno Cap...she looks healthy to me.  Anorexics usually have quite large heads in proportion to their bodies and very poor muscle development. 

I think you were asking the other day why society discriminates against obese people.  Society seems to frown on unhealty behavior in general.  Many places have banned public smoking.  Convenience stores often lose their liquor licenses for selling to minors.   

Anorexia is a mental illness.  It's possible that obesity is related to mental illness, too, and there is the question of genetics.  But in general, when you see a morbidly obese person, that person has made a choice to live an unhealthy lifestyle. 

As far as discrimination, I notice models are super-thin, and many women want to look that way, but most men seem to have quite the appreciation for a nicely rounded tush....

The Sir Mix-A-Lot video from a few years back was funny, but it also had more than a little grain of truth.

(warning...the linked video is "Baby Got Back"....some may not find it quite as funny as others.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybfLRFacF-c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybfLRFacF-c)


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 24, 2007, 09:56:34 PM
lhof,

  It's possible that obesity is related to mental illness, too, and there is the question of genetics.  But in general, when you see a morbidly obese person, that person has made a choice to live an unhealthy lifestyle.

And you know this how???
Experience, perhaps?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 24, 2007, 10:10:47 PM
I know this because I have a basic understanding of nutrition.  Do you have some knowledge and data that is unknown to the health community that will show otherwise?  Yes, there are some people who are overweight due to health problems, but as I said before, most are overweight because they have chosen to be.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 24, 2007, 10:15:21 PM
lhoffman,

Yes, there are some people who are overweight due to health problems, but as I said before, most are overweight because they have chosen to be.

By the same token, most are anorexic and bulimic because they have chosen to be, right?



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 24, 2007, 10:16:37 PM
I think you ought to read up on bulimia and anorexia.  These disorders are not so much about food as about body image and issues of control. 

It is true that many poor people are obese because they can't afford healthy foods.  There was an interesting article in the NYT magazine a few weeks back that discussed this.  Oddly enough, highly processed foods, which often cause weight gain, sell for less per calorie than minimally processed foods.   But some of this also reverts back to choice.  Why fry a chicken when you can bake it?  Why make an apple pie when you can make sugar-free baked apple?  And yes, I do have personal experience in this matter because growing up, my family was extremely poor and I know exactly the type of food my sisters prepare when they think of "home cooking" or "comfort foods."



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 24, 2007, 10:38:16 PM
Cap...Here is the article I referenced above. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/magazine/22wwlnlede.t.html?ex=1185422400&en=56d0b45650999e4c&ei=5070


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 25, 2007, 06:33:03 AM
lhoffman,

I think you ought to read up on bulimia and anorexia.  These disorders are not so much about food as about body image and issues of control.


So, in your mind, anorexia and bulimia are disorders but obesity is not.  That's an interesting way of justifying prejudice against the overweight.
Sorry, but recent research in the field of appetite and its origins show that obesity is a matter of brain chemistry.  That makes obesity just as much a "disorder" as anorexia and bulimia.  Check any recent text on the subject.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 25, 2007, 10:02:01 AM
I never had much interest in affixing labels to what people do with their food.  I just figure if it makes you sick in some way, either in over or under eating, I hope you can find some way to deal with it that works and maybe doesn't drag in politics and sweeping generalizations about how "people" view body types.

Probably whenever a person uses food to address some mental issue other than "I'm hungry" or "this is delicious," then they might be using the wrong sort of bandaid for whatever the scratch is.

I have no bias regarding the obese, other than that I can climb stairs faster and that's just a fact.  I'm a genetic greyhound, 5/10, 143 lb.  No willpower or food wisdom is involved, except a lucky genetic quirk that makes overly fatty food make me ill. 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 25, 2007, 10:04:45 AM
And don't forget the shoe buffing and shoulder rolls.  It's like tossing fat cells into a blast furnace.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 25, 2007, 11:04:38 AM
Yes, some obesity is caused by chemical imbalance in the brain.  Also genetics, thyroid.  But these account for a very small percent of the obese population.  In general, obesity is a choice.  I'm not talking about people who weigh more than they would like; there is a wide range of healthy weights and the composition of the weight is the issue rather than the weight itself....fat to muscle ratio.  (Sure, some people can eat more than others, but if your neighbor can eat a whole bag of oreos and not gain an ounce, but you know it will make you gain twenty pounds...better just to skip it.)   There are far more overweight people in American than underweight.  Overweight leads to diabetes, cancer, stroke, high blood pressure and heart attacks.  Instead of making obesity the new poster child for the American culture of victimhood, teachers and parents and health professionals ought to be showing people how to care for their health and well-being. 

Look around the school cafeteria in the fall and note what the students are eating.  How many of them have candy or pop in their lunches?  (And how many of the students actually buy these things on the campus?)  How many have sugar-laden fruit drinks?  or 4% milk?  or sugary chocolate milk?  How many children have butter and mayonaise on their sandwiches?  How many are eating Wonder Bread rather than whole grain? 

For most people, taking a daily walk and eating sensibly will keep their weight in a healthful range. 

Barton...you are sooooo lucky.  With your metabolism, shoulder rolls and shoe buffing probably dies burn fat.  I have to fight to control my weight.  And as far as "I'm hungry" or "this is delicious".....ALL food is delicious. 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 25, 2007, 11:22:58 AM
All food is delicious, eh?  Someone knows how to cook, clearly. 

The only drawback in being skinny in Nebraska is that it seems to violate some unspoken law for middle-aged persons.  I've had to deal with neighbors who assumed I was a drug addict, or going through chemo.  The ignorance can be oppressive to both the fat and the skinny, it seems like.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 25, 2007, 11:30:10 AM
skinny in Nebraska...LOL...I think there is something to that.  In Michigan...one of the fattest, if not THE fattest states in the Union, skinnyness is also looked upon with suspicion. 

I think the Cap has mentioned he lives in Colorado....one of the leannest.

And yes...I do love to cook.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 25, 2007, 11:59:25 AM
barton,

I'm a genetic greyhound, 5/10, 143 lb.  No willpower or food wisdom is involved, except a lucky genetic quirk that makes overly fatty food make me ill.

JUST SO!! Weight, appetite, and body build are a genetic and brain chemistry crapshoot.  Al of the most recent research into brain chemistry tells us this.

Nowhere else is victim blaming acceptable, except when it comes to the overweight.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 25, 2007, 01:21:01 PM
There might be something instinctual about people's reaction to the underweight as opposed to overweight.  Anorexics share some physical characteristics with infants that draw people to feel protective of them.  Infants have large eyes and oversized heads, as do anorexics. 

As I said, Cap, there is a genetic connection to weight.  But if you look around your people and see that for the most part they are overweight, you might also look at the foods that they bring to family gatherings.  Many of the behaviors that lead to overweight are learned in childhood at the family table.

My husband is the only person in immediate family who weighs under 300 pounds.  All have high triglycerides and cholesterol, and three generations in a row are diabetic.  Appears to be genetic?  Well maybe until you see what they eat.  Vegetables only when over cooked, no fresh fruits other than bananas....apples and cherries only in pie, lots of red meat, pop (soda), sugary creamers in their coffee, fried foods, donuts.   Kool-aid for the kids! 

My own family, three generations of diabetics in a row, heart problems and cholesterol...also stupid eaters. 

My immediate family, husband, kids, self...normal cholesterol, normal blood sugars, although my husband did have some problems until we got his diet straightened out.  Small sample?  Of course, but my experience is not unique and I would guess that most people with my "genetic" background who make healthy changes would also see  improvement.  Is it easier for some than for others?  Of course.  But that's not just true of weight and health issues.  It's also true of intelligence, looks, money....sorry, but life is sometimes not fair.

Changes in lifestyle are always difficult.  Last year when my husband had to change his diet, I had to re-learn cooking and shopping.  There were times at the beginning when it took two hours to grocery shop because I had to read labels on every item I purchased, and I've spent many hours studying nutrition and adapting recipes.  But as time passes, it gets easier and begins to seem the norm.

 If you have a problem with weight, instead of getting mad at other people's attitudes, I say screw em.  Throw out the old skinny thin way of thinking and aim for healthy....something most of us can achieve.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 25, 2007, 01:27:16 PM
 this is and has been my idea of the sort of beauty you mean  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvt9Hc7UK7w&mode=related&search=

the great Isabel Coca Sarli



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 25, 2007, 01:28:40 PM
Hey....I'm on utube!   Quite the goddess, eh  :D


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on July 25, 2007, 03:28:47 PM
Hoffman, good for you on your "eating right" campaign.  A bit of trivia.  Our eyes are the one thing we are born with that never change size.  What eyes you have on day one are what eyes you get forever.  Ears and noses, on the other hand, keep growing until the day we die.  And hair and finger nails continue to grow after death.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 25, 2007, 03:43:47 PM
lhoffman,

Many of the behaviors that lead to overweight are learned in childhood at the family table.

Or they are genetically programmed.
For the record, do you think that homosexuality is genetic or learned?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 25, 2007, 04:06:36 PM
I would imagine that both heredity and habits come into play in most aspects of life.  I don't believe that people are mindless puppets serving only genetic imperatives.  Fat people lose weight when they change their habits.  Skinny people put weight on when they visit Aunt Martha, the one with the dining table groaning with rich and tasty platters.  As a gay lifestyle is more accepted, more people who might be genetically predisposed to like the same sex may comfortably assume that lifestyle, whereas maybe a century ago they would have been more likely to pray a lot and wonder why, when they did the marital duty, it was never as fun as advertized.  It's even possible that many people, in the absence of a particular social structure (i.e. an either/or being presented) might tend more to bisexuality.  I just don't see any simple linear relationship between genes, which codes for specific proteins, and a specific activity.  It looks to be more complex than that.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 25, 2007, 04:37:58 PM
Donot...I think I'd read that before about eyes.  But babies' eyes look large in scale of the rest of their bodies, which is why people find babies (and baby animals) attractive.  When you think about it, they are actually quite tiring and often annoying....  Nature had to provide them with some sort of irresistable appeal....

Is homesexuality genetic or learned?   On the surface, it seems that if it were genetic, that there wouldn't be many gay people.  But then you realize that there are many gays who have married and had children.  It might not be genetic or learned but simply be related to the way one's brain is wired.  Certainly people take pleasure from a wide variety of sexual experience.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 25, 2007, 04:44:48 PM
barton,

I don't believe that people are mindless puppets serving only genetic imperatives.

However much you believe this to be true, however much you might want it to be true, recent research in the field of brain chemistry is revealing that it is not true.
As one who has read a great deal in this field, I can state that the current state of the research indicates that far more of our behavior is chemically and/or genetically programmed that previously thought.  In a curious way, the writings of B.F. Skinner are being confirmed.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 25, 2007, 05:04:42 PM
I'm sure many people here know quite a bit more about Skinner than I, but I believe Skinner believed in conditioned responses taught by continuous reinforcement....behavior modification.  Skinner believed that positive reinforcement could change people's behavior, thoughts and even perception of the world and of other people.   

A Skinner approved diet and exercize regimen would  reward responsible health choices. 



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 25, 2007, 05:47:34 PM
Laurie,

I can't imagine Skinner approving a diet and exercise regime, he just wanted to make the dog salivate to anticipate the food.

Good health has proven not to be a good motivator for diet and exercise. The rewards of an unhealthy diet and a couch-potato regime have greater and more immediate "rewards". Good health is a long term reward and would not be Skinnerian.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 25, 2007, 06:46:18 PM
Anne,

I can't imagine Skinner approving a diet and exercise regime, he just wanted to make the dog salivate to anticipate the food.


If I am not mistaken, this was the work of Ivan Pavlov, not Skinner.  For those who are interested, I recommend Skinner's Beyond Freedom and Dignity. Readers are either enlightened or horrified.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 25, 2007, 07:41:19 PM
Don't recall which I've read,  Beyond Freedom and Dignity or Walden II.  What confuses me about Skinner is that his idea of determinism doesn't seem to jibe with his idea of dignity.  On the one hand, he says that we have no control over our actions and are controlled by outside forces; on the other, he defines dignity as being related to taking control of one's actions.  They seem mutually exclusive.  And if we are only controlled by outside forces, how can positive reinforcement change our attitudes? 

Am thinking I read Walden, where Skinner envisioned a well-planned community whose members used only the resources they needed.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 26, 2007, 12:44:42 AM
On Obesity and Social ties:  Here are findings released July 26, 2007 from the New England Journal of Medicine, along with reductions from Harvard and University of California, San Diego (Christakis, Harvard; Fowler, USCSD)...interesting to see how they will be received in the medical and research communities.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/4/370 (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/4/370)

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/July07Christakis.html (http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/July07Christakis.html)

http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/soc/07-07ObesityIK-.asp (http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/soc/07-07ObesityIK-.asp)


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on July 26, 2007, 06:03:35 AM
More studies than not seem to show that homsexuality (and transgender in particular) is of the mind, of the wiring in the brain, from birth.  As we are informed, the brain is never quite through with itself, but the forming of the wiring circuits seems to begin tapering off at age 25.  Most homosexuals, from their own reports, were/are aware of being "different" from an early age but do not have the experience and vocabulary to deal with this feeling.  The aggressive reinforcement of "normal" sexuality further compounds the problem.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 26, 2007, 06:37:15 AM
dnr,

More studies than not seem to show that homosexuality (and transgender in particular) is of the mind, of the wiring in the brain, from birth. 

Exactly so, despite the wails of the Holy Rollers who claim that homosexuality is like a disease that can be "caught."  The reseach also indicates the same for body type.
These inborn traits cannot simply be willed away.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 26, 2007, 10:37:09 AM
Capo, I'm starting to see the confusion.  You are asserting that "body type" is genetic, which no one disputes, but then you seem to be tinkering with the meaning of body type so that it encompasses not just bone structure and basic lean muscle mass (which results in the basic somatypes, ectomorph (me), mesomorph, and endomorph) but also extra poundage.  While it is true that the endomorph will naturally carry somewhat more fat weight and less muscle, this doesn't mean that the endomorph is compelled to gorge and become obese.  The gorging relates much more to childhood habits and the forces of corporate marketing, which have really pushed a fattening diet.  One need only look at societies where people still grow their own food and do physical activity a large part of the day to note that obesity is hardly a result of genetic determinism.

As for your assertion that life sciences are producing some sort of proof of biological determinism, I recognize that this has become a popular position.  We would probably need a Philosophy of Science thread here, and many months, to really cover that territory.  My own inclination is to urge you to consider the possibility that there is a spiritual component to being human, an aspect of being that the methods of science cannot address, a crack in the mechanistic worldview that allows free will to enter in and render us less predictable than you might think.

     


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 26, 2007, 10:44:44 AM
barton,

As for your assertion that life sciences are producing some sort of proof of biological determinism, I recognize that this has become a popular position.  We would probably need a Philosophy of Science thread here, and many months, to really cover that territory.  My own inclination is to urge you to consider the possibility that there is a spiritual component to being human, an aspect of being that the methods of science cannot address, a crack in the mechanistic world view that allows free will to enter in and render us less predictable than you might think.

Much as I would like to agree with you, I simply cannot.  We are still, of course, in the infancy of brain and brain chemistry research, but what there is seems to validate the hypothesis that we are determined to a greater degree than heretofore thought, by forces over which we have no control.
I have raised in my psychology classes the question of what happens to the concept of free will when even more evidence comes in, but in the interim, the evidence suggests more and more that we are subject to a chemical determinism.
If there is a spiritual component, it is looking more and more like the spiritualism of Calvin.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on July 26, 2007, 10:51:57 AM
Thecap, I realize I am just one in more than 5 billion and deserve no special favors, but could you forgo the red type and just use black?  My eyes, my eyes.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 26, 2007, 11:21:31 AM
I would wonder how far a teacher would take this idea of determinism.  Does one teach a child with an IQ of 100 that his options are more limited than a child with an IQ of 120 or 140?  or does one teach that child that hard work is more likely to determine his success than IQ? 

And in the matter of weight?  How does it help a child to teach him that there is nothing he can do to change so why not just do as he pleases?  Suppose his body chemistry puts him in the 200 pound range.  Doesn't it make more sense to work to keep near that range than to allow himself to get to 300 pounds?  Obesity is quite limiting.  The comment was made that society has a bias against fat people.  But the question is, is the bias justified?  Suppose you are an employer interviewing potential employees.  Down to the final two and one is marginally more qualified than the other.  The more qualified one is morbidly obese, the slightly less qualified appears quite healthy.  As an employer who will provide health insurance for the new hiree....who do you go for? 

Another word for determinism is victimhood....and how can a child who is given to understand that he is a victim feel anything but hopeless.  Personal responsibility is the key to true empowerment.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 26, 2007, 11:26:47 AM
lhoffman,

Does one teach a child with an IQ of 100 that his options are more limited than a child with an IQ of 120 or 140?  or does one teach that child that hard work is more likely to determine his success than IQ?

There you go with forced choice questions again.  Who says these are the only two alternatives?
I would suggest that the 100 IQ child will achieve more if his brain chemistry drives her/him to be ambitious than the 140 IQ child whose chemistry drives her/him to not exert her/himself.
Like it or not, I believe the research will ultimately prove that we are in thrall to our brain anatomy and chemistry.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 26, 2007, 11:33:20 AM
lhoffman,

Down to the final two and one is marginally more qualified than the other.  The more qualified one is morbidly obese, the slightly less qualified appears quite healthy.  As an employer who will provide health insurance for the new hiree....who do you go for?


No doubt in my mind at all; I take the obese person.
I suspect that the more qualified person will produce value to the company far in excess of her/his insurance premiums.
First, who is to say the obese person is not healthy. 
By some standards, I would be considered overweight.  I have a cholesterol count of 130, a BP of 110/70, and can outpress many men 2/3 my age on the machines in my health club.
I also think it is interesting to see the result if you substituted woman or minority for obese.  that employer would be having to have a fire sale of her/his office equipment to pay the discrimination judgment.
As I have said before, discrimination against the overweight is the last "acceptable" prejudice left in the USA.
Why are you so angry at those of your fellow citizens who are overweight?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 26, 2007, 11:35:38 AM
lhoffman,

Suppose his body chemistry puts him in the 200 pound range.  Doesn't it make more sense to work to keep near that range than to allow himself to get to 300 pounds?

Now there's a real misconception for you.  If a person's body chemistry puts her/him in the 200 pound range, it will also prevent her/him from getting into the 300 pound range.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 26, 2007, 11:38:14 AM
Quote
Like it or not, I believe the research will ultimately prove that we are in thrall to our brain anatomy and chemistry.


Not me.  I believe that no one on the real world gives a hoot about brain chemistry and that if a child learns that future employers, spouses, friends are not interested in excuses for failure,  he will be far more likely to succeed.   Of course life is harder for some than for others, but that's the way things go, and the only answer is to work hard, do your best, do what is right.  

Parents and teachers cede their authority far too easily these days.  Example, last night I was watching a television show about the McDonald's empire.  In one scene, there was a mother sitting at a McDonald's with her child who apparently had eaten at McDonald's every day that week.  Her comment was that when they got in the car he started screaming and wouldn't stop until she took him to McDonald's.  What do to?  Helpless!  My first thought was there here is a child who is considerably smarter than his mother.  He has learned that if he makes life unpleasant enough, she will give him whatever he asks for.  Here was a parent who was too lazy or who didn't love her child enough to actually parent him.  Imagine how successful this bright child might become if his mother actually learns to parent.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 26, 2007, 11:40:21 AM
re:  woman or minority....these aren't health issues, and so don't quite work for the argument.  A better comparison would be smoker or non-.

Not angry or hostile at overweight people...but I do think that in most cases it's a matter of choice.  And as to the person whose body chemistry sets him at 200, of course eating patterns and habits will put him below or above that weight.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 26, 2007, 11:43:16 AM
lhoffman,

Not angry or hostile at overweight people...but I do think that in most cases it's a matter of choice.

What will happen to your thinking if, or, more likely, when your dearly held ideas are refuted by science?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 26, 2007, 11:44:46 AM
lhoffman,

Of course life is harder for some than for others, but that's the way things go,

And you criticize me for being a determinist!


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 26, 2007, 11:46:07 AM
"What will happen to your thinking if, or, more likely, when your dearly held ideas are refuted by science?"

LOL...common sense tells me that this is unlikely.  But if or when they are, first thing I'm going to buy TWO ginormous hot fudge sundaes, slathered in whipped cream and topped with SIX marachino cherries....maybe a couple of Big Mac chasers.....But have you formed any opinion of the New England Journal of Medicine study?  


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 26, 2007, 11:49:13 AM
lhoffman,

Of course life is harder for some than for others, but that's the way things go,

And you criticize me for being a determinist!

This is not determinism.  Life is harder for the poor than for the wealthy, for people with health problems.  School is harder for children who have trouble sitting still, who dislike their teachers, who are poor readers...the list goes on. 

...or maybe you buy into the idea of the cosmic craps game as related in Job? ;)




Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on July 26, 2007, 11:58:04 AM
lhoffman,

or maybe you buy into the idea of the cosmic craps game as related in Job?

In fact, no.  I believe, as did Einstein that "God does not play dice with the Universe."  Just as that great man interpreted the universe, mass, and energy as a logical system, the next generation of brain researchers will interpret the brain and its chemistry in logical terms.
You may not like the track we are on, but you can't get off the train. ;)


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 26, 2007, 12:04:36 PM
Hey...we got no disagreement on Einstein...except perhaps a wee quibble with the catagorization of Einstein as a "great man".....Einstein was a god!


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 26, 2007, 12:34:46 PM
Laurie,

If I may insert a thought in this tussle between you and the Cap, let me suggest, first of all, that the folks who are discriminated against for being "overweight" are not necessarily obese in a scientific definition. They are just large.

Secondly, some people are obsessive with health rather than letting themselves be comfortably healthy, the obsess to achieve some optimal health. My neice, for example, was a couch potato as a teenager, saw the light, and became a slim-as-a-rail fitness trainer. She just had a baby, and her health regime is not sufficient for the baby to suckle and gain weight. The pediatrician is worried.

Thirdly, reformed couch potatoes are as unpleasant to be around a reformed smokers or reformed christians.

Fourthly, bad eating habits can be learned at any time of one's life that it becomes possible and/or comfortable. Sometimes, well after childhood.

Fifthly, people do not only eat for health reason. They also eat when they are bored, tired, energetic, anxious, excited, and so forth. Some people choose to displine their eating habits, other choose to discipline their work habits, leisure habits, or other habits. Some people have a lot of displine. Others, get by on very little.

Sixth, Genetic and IQ limitation on learning are very real. No amount of hard work will make a retarded person a genius. People can only strive to extend their ability by a given (genetic) amount, and no matter how hard they work past that point, the capacity is just not there. I have worked with retarded children, some who have worked very hard, but could not put a serious dent in their capabilities. They may be able to broaden their abilities within their capability, but they cannot exceed them. A child with an IQ of say 70, has the capacity to read at a 5th grade level. With hard work they can bring it up to a 5.6 level, but not to an 8. But, they can read widely at their capacity level and know a great number of things/skills at that level. Sorta like a person who is 5'2" tall. Eating more in adulthood will not make them one inch taller, but they may broaden out some.

Seventh, being overweight by a certain amount can be a distinct advantage in some occupations and athletics. The person is not unhealthy, they just have enough bulk to increase their overall strength. They can, therefore, do their job better than a thin person who is limited by their bulk in the amount of strength they can put on a job.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on July 26, 2007, 12:48:55 PM
weezo

This is in fact why the army feeds you food which bulks you up to unappealing level of body proportions. Have  you seen the women coming back from the field?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on July 26, 2007, 12:59:21 PM
For those of you who really care about this matter other than for argument's sake, Dr. Mehmet Oz (of Turkish origin) was interviewed by Charlie Rose last night.  He listens to patients before "showing people how to care for their health and well-being." He is by profession a heart surgeon.  Having read The New England Journal of Medicine, and all the competing publications in their field for approximately 8 to 10 years, I wouldn't even think of subscribing to their present on-line editions.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 26, 2007, 01:30:17 PM
Lhoff:

"....I  believe that no one on the real world gives a hoot about brain chemistry and that if a child learns that future employers, spouses, friends are not interested in excuses for failure,  he will be far more likely to succeed...."

Yes!

Cap -- bleak though I may find it, I can't fault anyone for choosing determinism as a strongly science-based view of reality.  Some researchers in quantum physics (see Penrose, Hameroff, et al.) do hypothesize a role for consciousness that includes free will, based on some rather spooky interpretations of quantum theory.  But I don't think I'm waiting for results there -- at some point, you just have to look at the philosophies on the shelf, and pick one you can live with.  (and that isn't utterly refuted by blindingly vast gobs of evidence)  For me, a deterministic universe is one that is cold and dead and utterly without any meaning, i.e. an existential nightmare.  No one is responsible for any action, no matter how horrible, and consciousness is a useless mockery.  But, hey, that's just me.   :-)





Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on July 26, 2007, 02:18:22 PM
Thecap, thanks for the black.

Since I lurk more than I participate, you all won't mind if I pick and choose amongst your positions.  Some from column A . . . .


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 26, 2007, 02:30:44 PM
Barton...
Quote
For me, a deterministic universe is one that is cold and dead and utterly without any meaning, i.e. an existential nightmare.  No one is responsible for any action, no matter how horrible, and consciousness is a useless mockery.  But, hey, that's just me.   :-)


I'd agree with you, and maybe that is one reason why I can't buy the idea of determinism...

But as to the scientific approach.  I know from experience that scientists love it when they don't know something.  Not knowing gives one the opportunity to find out, form thesis, prove....My husband is like a kid in a candy store when he comes home from work on a day someone over there has thought of a new approach, solution, formula.  Ever watch "The Universe" or "Nova?"   Science is more a a creative endeavor than people understand, and sometimes those creative impulses lead up the right path....sometimes not.  

Madupont....I think this issue is more than a point for argument because making healthy choices, taking responsibiltity improves the quality of life.

Anne...The thinking that people are morbidly obese (I'm not talking  body type...which one simply has to live with)  and that there is nothing to be done rather reminds me of the attitudes educators once took towards low IQ children.  Many were locked away, living as prisoners in their homes.  Many were sent away, and I suspect, many were victims of "mercy" killings.  

But I wonder what would happen if science does prove that weight is related to brain chemistry.  Then what?  Would that also change our thinking about the relationship between obesity and stroke, high blood pressure, heart disease?  If scientists prove the link, how long will it take to develop a vaccination to prevent obesity?  I suspect that even if science provided this information and prevention that obestity would still be a problem because people would not address the real issue....attitudes toward food and exercize.

I am in total agreement with the Cap on the attitude our society has regarding physical aesthetics.  What we should value is not the ultra-thin models that hollywood and madison avenue use to sell products.  These images are particularly harmful to developing girls who set themselves up for failure by pursuing unrealistic goals.  They starve themselves until the point that their bodies change their metabolism.  When they can't stand it anymore and try to eat a sensible amount of calories, they gain weight.  They diet again, further reducing their metabolism....and the cycle goes on....hard on the body, hard on the self-esteem.  And this occurs exactly at the point when these girls are beginning to date, which makes them quite vulnerable to those boys they believer themselves in love with...
    


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on July 27, 2007, 07:31:12 PM


Is discrimination against the obese the last acceptable prejudice in the USA?


No...it's ugly people


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on July 27, 2007, 07:34:14 PM
Laurie,

If I may insert a thought in this tussle between you and the Cap, let me suggest, first of all, that the folks who are discriminated against for being "overweight" are not necessarily obese in a scientific definition. They are just large.


I think technically...it is extremely easy to be classified as "obese"   There are a lot of people that I know that qualify in medical terms, even though looking at them you would probably say they are just "solid" or a little overweight.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on July 27, 2007, 09:09:28 PM
What eyes you have on day one are what eyes you get forever. 

except that they are usually blue...


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 29, 2007, 02:26:03 PM
Stretching is very good for you. 

And don't wear jeans.  All those tight areas and rivets and such inhibit natural motion.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 29, 2007, 06:26:20 PM
Barton,

If I couldn't wear jeans, I'd have to go nekked! I live in jeans. They used to be designer jeans and tight but now that my body isn't tight anymore, the jeans are comfortably loose. In buying jeans, worry about the cut and fit, and expect them to shrink after washing.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 29, 2007, 06:45:12 PM
unless of course you would LIKE them to shrink....


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on July 31, 2007, 12:10:19 AM

"Madupont....I think this issue is more than a point for argument because making healthy choices, taking responsibiltity improves the quality of life"

Here's what I said:For those of you who really care about this matter other than for argument's sake,...

Not a point for argument.  I referred to Dr. Mehmet Oz in listening to the individual before beginning to prescribe, not an overall axiom for health  but, to establish the individual diagnosis, as I said -- my mother trained me in knowledge of the diatetics that she studied as her nursing speciality (how do you feed the patient in-hospital according to the doctor's diagnosis of the disease and for the continuing dietary regimen of the individual when they return home and live with who they are: a complete individual experiencing a medical syndrome among other characteristics).

The mechanics of it are something that my son enjoys doing for his living.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on July 31, 2007, 02:59:17 AM
I just went over to read the second page of the article recommended yesterday by donotremove and, before I found it again on the book page,this loomed into view;perhaps this will express more clearly than anything has so far persuaded that prejudice against body type is an illness that is really sick (although, I have to admit that  almost simultaneously encountering the current appearance of Princeton's Queen of Mean had me in titters).

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/world/americas/30havana.html


Ps. Unfortunately, the PQ of M has a most valid endocrine imbalance.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on July 31, 2007, 09:47:03 AM
I had a girl friend (but not a girlfriend) in college who insisted her fatness was a hormone problem.  I sort of went with this until I was studying one night in the Union near the vending machines.  Sitting at an angle where she didn't see me, I watched her pump change into three of the machines and walk out of there with about 1200 calories of sweet snacks.  If people really don't want to be fat, it's possible to eat less, especially white flour and other simple carb products, and exercise more.  Look at societies where junk food is scarce and personal vehicles rare -- skinny people are the vast majority.

I have no prejudice against fat people so far as the content of their characters, but I think plain talk and facts are needed and I get tired of mincing words about this.  I've worked in jobs connected to health care and I can tell you that most of the people running up medical bills and raising our premiums are either smokers or munchers (i.e. fat).  The strain on joints, heart, kidneys, etc. is tremendous.

Grill some fish and vegetables, dump the white bread and chips, and get the hell out of your car and walk.   


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on July 31, 2007, 11:16:15 AM
barton, you seem like a pretty reasonable, semi-empathetic person.  So I hope you do realize that while making the right food choices and eating sensibly and nutritionally is basically easy, there are -- besides our snack-y, fast food, drive everywhere society -- myriad emotional and/or psychologoical reasons people make incorrect food choices, binge, and otherwise eat unwisely.  If being fit was as easy as just making a rational, informed food choice and exercising regularly, more people would be fit.  But I guess I'm not the first one to say that. 

I say this, of course, as the daughter of a man who would sneak an unopened package of cookies into his darkroom and devour the whole thing as he developed film or printed pictures.  He'd leave the bag in the garbage (versus sneaking it back out) knowing we would find it -- so the whole secrecy thing of sneaking the cookies in was pointless.  Which he had to know, as he was a pretty intelligent guy with a fairly high-power job.  Go figure.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: pontalba on July 31, 2007, 11:17:39 AM
Barton,
Your friend's weight could still have been partially genetic or hormonal weight.  Sometimes when someone adheres to a balanced or good diet, and there isn't much in the way of results there could be a tendency to just throw it over for a day, or hour or whatever time frame and eat what you darn well please.  

I was thin when young, and ever since my mid 20's its been a fight to maintain, not always a winning fight, and the older one gets the more difficult it is, and the more difficult it is to lose what you've gained.  It can be very frustrating, and patience doesn't always come easily.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on July 31, 2007, 11:33:30 AM
This is a case where everybody's right.  Overweight is NOT a bumper sticker problem.  A hydra is more like it

I quit smoking 2 January 2007.  I have gained 23 pounds.  And since I am partially disabled (bad knees/hip) getting rid of these pounds is going to be HELL (and I already weighed too much before I quit smoking).  At least my lungs are clear and I won't wheeze on the gurney to the morgue.

And, please, no advice.  My doctor says that with no additional physical activity I'll have to Bangladesh it on 500 calories a day.  Lettuce and fish anyone?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on July 31, 2007, 11:47:58 AM
DoNot,
Congratulations on quitting smoking!  Pardon my turning this into "all about me" -- but we just buried my mother-in-law who could not quit smoking for good until she was diagnosed with lung cancer last year.  So, seriously -- I mean congratulations.  Weight gain aside, IMO it's the single best thing you could do.

I won't offer advice but I will sympathize, as I have a knee with no cartilage and faulty ligaments myself.  (Taking a bite of lettuce-wrapped cod and lifting my glass of sparkly mineral water in a toast....)


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on July 31, 2007, 11:53:17 AM
Harrie.   :)


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 31, 2007, 12:17:42 PM
Stop writing about being fat,eating and EXERCISE.
This is a Kult Search/Feature suggestion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPBYrQAHNAo


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 31, 2007, 01:43:15 PM
Harrie,

Tell me how you did it? Doc told me two years ago to give up smoking and drinking, to do one or the other first. Last year, he said the drinking is showing on my face. I'd been trying to quit smoking and it wasn't working. Now, I've stopped drinking, but stil can't give up the fags. Any suggestions? Hubby is a heavy smoker also, and we both need to quit, but it is just so easy to sit in the chair and light up another one and thing about what I should be doing.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on July 31, 2007, 01:50:45 PM
Weezo,
Don't ask me -- I quit when I was a teenager because a boy I liked said kissing me was like kissing an ashtray -- ask DoNotRemove, who recently accomplished the Feat of the Iron Will.   (Or, I could describe to you my MIL's last three weeks of life, if you think that would help any.)


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on July 31, 2007, 02:05:57 PM
Weezo, I stopped buying cigarettes.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 31, 2007, 02:06:36 PM
Oops, I credited the wrong person with the stop-smoking issue! I know all the details, the science, and the psychology, but I haven't found the hook that makes it happen for me. I started smoking in my 20's and quite when I began teaching. As I've wound down my career, the urge to occupy my hands became an issue. I need to surmount that problem first. And, I can't afford to gain any more weight. I can't see my feet anymore as it is. Retirement is fine, I'm busy at the computer, but I haven't yet found a way to keep up the physical activity I enjoyed when in the classroom.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on July 31, 2007, 02:08:11 PM
Donot,

Thanks. That's how I stopped drinking. I stopped buying two boxes of wine every week at the store. If it isn't here, I'm not going after it. It's too far away.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on July 31, 2007, 02:18:13 PM
martinbeck3/ That's how I do it!  Guinea? Now, you take a guinea hen and you stuff it....


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on July 31, 2007, 09:16:14 PM
Donotremove....I can almost picture your physician advising you to take up swimming.... ;D


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 02, 2007, 10:04:58 AM
Harrie, didn't mean to sound off so glibly.  My point wasn't that it would have been easy for this friend to solve the head issues and lose weight, just that I wasn't buying what proved to be blarney about the glandular problem, given her secret affair with the vending machines.

Food ads are pernicious, the ones with the huge glistening closeups of colorful platters.  Studies find that they don't necessarily make you buy the particular product shown, but if you are watching they will stimulate you to snack more on something that's around.

 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on August 02, 2007, 10:44:01 AM
Oh, I understand the lure of a shiny, fully-stocked vending maching completely.  (And so does Sally Kellerman, if Snickers commercials are a reliable indicator.)  Once you go vending, you never go back, I hear.

It's funny, though -- when I went to high school, we had an apple vending machine. They were Red Delicious, so not the greatest apple experience, but it was a very popular machine.  And now I hear revolutionary talk in my hometown paper about putting fruit vending machines into schools to combat childhood/teenage obesity.  So, 1)  something happened to our apple machine; and 2) they're reinventing the wheel.  Again.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on August 02, 2007, 11:07:42 AM
Harrie, nutrician is a funny thing--as in puzzling.  When I was a kid no one in my family was fat, and this was a time when everything fried was fried in lard.  Lard was in the biscuits.  Lard was in the pie dough (I still use lard in pie dough.)  Did people then die of clogged arteries?  Beats me, but no one in my family, back then, died of heart attacks or strokes.  Mostly they died of old age.

But then most of my extended family was active.  They got up and were busy all day at something manual or another.  My father, poor, rode a bicycle till he was over 20.  Briefly he had a car, but used the resale money from it to buy his first house.  So, back to the bicycle (tore a hole in the leg of his only suit and his mother rewove the tear perfectly--people knew such things in those days.)  He was barely past his bicyle days when I was born (I spent the first months of my life in a dresser drawer.)

Not to maddy this, but there's got to be something that's different now, from then.  You suppose it's processed food?  With all that corn fructose?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 02, 2007, 11:29:54 AM
The key difference is probably the lesser reliance on the car and labor-saving appliances and tools.  That, and those heavy meals weren't supplemented with snacks so much.  I'm old enough (51) to remember a childhood when the only food available between meals was in the fruit bowl.  Some countries, like France, still have a cultural antipathy towards snacks, and they are fairly thin.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on August 02, 2007, 11:50:02 AM
I need to think of some healthy snack to pack for an excursion tomorrow. My niece is in town, with her three little ones, and I have been invited to spend the day which will include a trip to Richmond to the Children's Museum. I am thinking of getting some plums and bananas to add too whatever else is packed. These children are not especially fond of cookies, as I learned last summer when they visited and I went to Renee's house armed with a box of cookies. They like making cookies more than eating them! I need to make a run today to WalMart so I can go bearing gifts. The demise of Fisher Price toys is a let-down. I will have to look for something else for a 15 month old boy, a 3-1/2 year old girl and a 6 year old girl. I will of course, take copies of my latest book for each of them. But I want to also get something fun. It would be nice to find some hobby-horses, since they won't take up a lot of room when they pack up to return to Michigan.

Any other suggestions for snacks for the outing tomorrow?

Has anyone else noticed the commercial that features a pinata at a party, that is filled with celery stalks, and when it is broken, the kids are in rapure over celery? It is a fun commercial and a good message for kids. Much better than the commercial for "Pizza Rolls" in which a young couple is cuddling and an elderly man comes in and tells the young man that what he really wants are some Pizza Rolls, and then the elderly man seats himself with the girl smiling happily.

Maybe I should stick to my Pa Dutch heritage, and take pretzels. There are now multi-grain pretzels, and, when I am lucky, I can find Pumpernickel pretzels. I'm sure that their Aunt Renee will be providing a good assortment of fruit, since she's a fitness trainer who keep a small waist by eating often from the fruit family.

I'm open to suggestions!



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on August 02, 2007, 12:00:13 PM
I'm partial to grapes for on-road snacking -- they're sweet and bite-sized, and in moderation hopefully don't provide too much sugar.  Though I'm sure I'll find out to the contrary.....

DNR, I've been party to many of that type of discussion (why our ancestors ate what they did and didn't suffer too much) about nitrates/nitrites, high fructose corn syrup, and other stuff.  While I agree with barton that our lack of exercise in everyday life is a factor, I tend to think it's a cumulative coming-together of everything -- preservatives, chemicals, non-activity -- in an unfortunate synchronicity of obesity, cancer, etc.  And I will now state that I have absolutely no credentials for coming to this conclusion.  It's just my uninformed opinion.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 02, 2007, 12:23:42 PM
"....These children are not especially fond of cookies...."

That's just weird.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on August 02, 2007, 12:33:51 PM
I'd have to agree that advertising, preservatives, lack of exercize and high fructose corn syrup all contribute to overweight.  I'm wondering though, if the HFC problem might be solved now that farmers are wanting to use their corn for ethanol. 

This question will be a dead giveaway as to what a worrying mother I was, but is it safe to give a 3 1/2 year old or under whole grapes?  Choking hazard.   Serving grapes to a pre-schooler, I'd cut them in half first.   Or maybe take the dried variety...raisins.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on August 02, 2007, 12:57:33 PM
This question will be a dead giveaway as to what a worrying mother I was, but is it safe to give a 3 1/2 year old or under whole grapes?  Choking hazard.   Serving grapes to a pre-schooler, I'd cut them in half first.   Or maybe take the dried variety...raisins.

Ahhhh....as a non-parent, that thought never occurred to me.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on August 02, 2007, 01:00:07 PM
one of the drawbacks of being a parent....EVERYTHING occurs to you, and never stops occurring


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on August 02, 2007, 01:17:36 PM
I prefer seedless grapes, and that seems to be what is most often sold around here. But, you may be right about the chokin hazard, especially with Alex (15 months old) since he won't have enough teeth yet to bite into them well.

And, yes, Barton, I was surprised that these children aren't into cookies. Their mother was a Cookie Monster at their age.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 02, 2007, 05:35:51 PM
No raisins for children in the 15 month range.  They swell up when the kid can't stop snacking; their packets have to be rationed.

Children have no automatic turn-off/cut-off switch for whatever sweet addiction or food fad they are into.  They just vomit . If you are lucky.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 02, 2007, 05:41:55 PM
donotremove,

I always preferred lard as well for biscuits and pie-crust.  I think it is the genetically modified corn(syrup)fructose.  It is in everything sold out here that is baked or cooked.  I don't remember ever seeing a bottle of white corn syrup in my mother's house but chances are she most likely used it at some point to whip up with egg whites in one of her gastronomic desserts.  She never gained weight from dessert. (it was the salads. Fat prevention par excellence)


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on August 02, 2007, 06:32:32 PM
True...raisins are pretty sweet.  I don't even remember what I fed my kids when they were that young.

What about those yogurt bites?  Are they sugary?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on August 02, 2007, 06:55:13 PM
Well, ya'll convinced me not to take any fruit. I also didn't do well in the buying toys department. I bought some "Hairy Balls", which are soft balls with rubbery hairs on them (Ok, all you with dirty minds - these are toys!), got them home and read the label that say for age 5 and up. So much for the 3-4 year old and the 15 month old. I think I'll stop at Toys-R-Us tomorrow on my way, and choose something that I read the label on before I buy it. The "Hairy Balls" will be for Libby, who is six, and for the adults, who will probably have fun with them, since they seem like the sort of thing to throw across the living room to bong off one's spouse harmlessly. All the Fisher Price toys are off the shelves. I will have to do some serious shopping to come off as the generous old lady tomorrow. Couldn't even buy decent pretzels at WalMart, and was too tired after making the rounds of that store to go anywhere else.

Sometimes it just isn't possible to be a great great-aunt without stepping in it!


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 02, 2007, 06:59:54 PM
lhoffman,#145

Only a percentage will go to ethanol as the majority will still be feed corn for livestock; as opposed to edible corn for human diets (or corn products like corn-meal,etc..) I seldom desire to eat fresh corn as I had it daily at this time of year in Iowa.  

The cows, particuarly the young cows and heifers love to eat green corn, when it is first ready. When the Younger farmers, those with young children still at home, go out to cut swathes through the fields to let in the air, they generally haul it back to the yard or barn area and then fill up a round or rectangular standing feeder in the pasture so that the cows can crowd around and pull out the corn leaves like cats on catnip. Come to think of it, when I do prepare corn, I set out newspapers as  I strip the ears into a rinser from the kettle and the cat dives in to eat the green silk and the light inner leaves which she eats with relish(not corn relish).

I did use some the other night for the famous chicken-corn soup, with some potatoes, some noodles (or homemade small dumpling/knaidlach) with lots of celery, sweated onion, saffron,bouquet garnis, to which some milk is added at the very end.  

and Barton! I forgot to put the egg yolks in which are hard-boiled and only the yolks added smashed into a blend of soft butter with equal flour to thicken the soup. The amount of flour and butter roue is about half the amount of egg yolks worked into the butter before the flour.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on August 02, 2007, 07:08:12 PM
I wonder if it's true that most corn will be set aside for food and feed.  I came across an article a week or two back about the rising prices of food...blamed of course on farmers selling crops for energy rather than food.  I'll have to look around and see if I can find it. 

But the corn silk and cats is interesting.  I will have to ask my son's girlfriend.  He will be visiting in a week or so, and will bring his girlfriend and her cat.  The girlfriend is very careful about what she lets kitty eat.  If she approves, I may cook corn while they are here.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on August 02, 2007, 07:09:39 PM
Maddie,

I have never thickened chicken-corn-noodle soup. Just serve with so much content compared to broth, that you wouldn't miss the thickening.

I am wondering, since you mention the thickening, what is used to make cream-style corn. I've never had it home-made - just canned. And, it is a wonderful topping for baked potatoes or noodles.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on August 02, 2007, 07:15:46 PM
Here are a couple of the articles on corn and grocery prices.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007706240589

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/415495,CST-NWS-food06.article

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/16/national/16ethanol.html?ex=1295067600&en=0c5651f9be1414dd&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 02, 2007, 07:27:54 PM
"we" in "Amishville" USA use cream corn for escalloped corn casserole with crackers rolled under a rolling pin, eggs, and milk, and,salt and pepper.  Otherwise creamed corn is made fresh in season, by a bit of saute in the pan after which the milk, or half and half, or cream is added.

I used to like cut corn with macaroni, sans cheese of any sort, and hamburger crumbled with onion to thoroughly brown, and eggs are beaten and folded in before baking in a casserole with a bread crumb or cracker toping as with the other scalloped corn casserole.  But as I said, corn goes a long way with me....

Oh, lest I forget, fried into pancakes or fritter shaped is delicious too. I eat mine with maple syrup. People here think corn syrup is fine with them because it is sold by Goods (and besides they grow it ....

Didn't I tell you about the old order Mennonite lady whom I asked if the cornmeal with the flecks of brown in it was all right to use for making fried corn mush? And she just looked at me like I was crazy but not "meanly" and asked kindly, "didn't your grandmother ever roast ears of corn on the iron stove?"  

I thought about it and then realized, no, of course not, she may have cooked on an iron stove all summer long plus boiling her wash water and her laundry water that I brought in from the pump like everybody else but I was only on the farm during the working season when school was out. In the Autumn and Winter until Spring was over, I was in school, in the city.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on August 02, 2007, 09:16:08 PM
Geez, Maddie,

I hadn't thought about a corn cassorole in a long time. It was a hum-dinger!

When I move to Virginia, I found a new corn dish - Spoon Bread. It is a semi-liquid cornbrea, sorta like a cassarole without a topping. It is gooooood! I could probably find a recipe for it. I've never made it, other than from a mix with directions on it. My first husband and boys liked it, but my second husband, a native Virginian, does not like it at all, so I haven't made it in more than twenty years. It was especially good as a restaurant side dish, in those little china bowls, with a chunk of butter melting in it! Yum!

Hubby does like corn fritters. Put some canned creamed corn in as some of the liquid in pancake mix, and cook as usual. Just as good as apple fritters, with chunky applesauce in them.

My mother used the clear Karo (corn) syrup to mix with Carnation canned milk as formula for the babies as they came along (I was the oldest, so got to see this mystery happening). By the time I had my sons, Carnation milk was disdained, and you had to buy a certain brand and type of baby formula.

Oh, I'm watching a silly movie, and they are just now performing an old song: The Naughty Lady of Shaddy Lane, which came out when sister Terry was small, and was named "her" song by the family. I didn't think anyone remembered that song. The movie is a fifties spoof called "Cry Baby".



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on August 02, 2007, 11:18:49 PM
Oh, I'm watching a silly movie, and they are just now performing an old song: The Naughty Lady of Shaddy Lane, which came out when sister Terry was small, and was named "her" song by the family. I didn't think anyone remembered that song. The movie is a fifties spoof called "Cry Baby".

Funny you should mention Cry Baby, I like it a lot. 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: pontalba on August 03, 2007, 08:05:35 AM
My Aunt and Grandmother used to make Corn Pudding but I can't remember anything except watching them break the corn kernels against the grater.  What else was in it I can't remember.   I've googled for recipes and don't see one like they did, none of the recipes I've seen grate the corn.
Oh why didn't I pay more attention!


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on August 03, 2007, 09:40:18 AM
LHoffman, good articles on corn -- thanks.   I'm a doofus as far as economics go, but I always wonder why, instead of paying farmers not to grow things, we don't pay them to grow some more corn.  (Provided they're in the right place, etc.) 

That lady in the Free Press article who paid $1.79 for a half-gallon of milk and grumbled about it -- things are different here in Connecticut.  We pay about $4 for a half-gallon of organic milk, but even the regular stuff is over $2/half-gallon.  Stew Leonard's sells for $1.69 per half-gallon (and it's from Connecticut-residing, outdoor-living, grass-grazing cows), but he processes it on site and produces huge quantities; and not everyone lives near one of his stores.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 03, 2007, 10:14:30 AM
When I was small we had a dachsund who was somewhat mischevious and would tear into things he shouldn't, including one time a box of raisins and other dried fruit.  He ate all of it, then gulped down a bowl of water, and suffered alarming abdominal distention.  He was miserable for a couple days and never showed any interest in dried fruit again.  A dachsund with severe bloating is quite a sight.

 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 03, 2007, 11:47:10 AM
WEEZO, careful when buying toys,the Fisher Price featuring Plaza Sesamo (I don´t know the name in English) characters have a dangerous lead paint,they are made in China.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on August 03, 2007, 11:52:42 AM
LHoffman, good articles on corn -- thanks.   I'm a doofus as far as economics go, but I always wonder why, instead of paying farmers not to grow things, we don't pay them to grow some more corn.  (Provided they're in the right place, etc.) 

That lady in the Free Press article who paid $1.79 for a half-gallon of milk and grumbled about it -- things are different here in Connecticut.  We pay about $4 for a half-gallon of organic milk, but even the regular stuff is over $2/half-gallon.  Stew Leonard's sells for $1.69 per half-gallon (and it's from Connecticut-residing, outdoor-living, grass-grazing cows), but he processes it on site and produces huge quantities; and not everyone lives near one of his stores.

I've wondered why farmers aren't paid to grow, too.  When I drive up through the thumb or up into Saginaw county here in Michigan, I always see empty fields.  At first I thought they were on a rest year, but I've seen the same empty or only partially planted fields year after year. 

I knew about your Connecticut grocery prices.  My son's girlfriend lives in Connecticul and apparently does her grocering when she visits him in Manhattan.  Quite a bit cheaper. 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on August 03, 2007, 12:29:07 PM
When I was small we had a dachsund who was somewhat mischevious and would tear into things he shouldn't, including one time a box of raisins and other dried fruit.  He ate all of it, then gulped down a bowl of water, and suffered alarming abdominal distention.  He was miserable for a couple days and never showed any interest in dried fruit again.  A dachsund with severe bloating is quite a sight.


barton,
Good for your doxie -- I'm glad he lived.   Raisins are high on the list of foods to be kept away from dogs and cats.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 03, 2007, 01:12:04 PM
And small children.

I shall look for the exact measurements that go into the Spoon-bread for weeze and Mr. or Ms. or Mrs.Pontalba, although most Southern cooks might improvise on a good day. It's been more than a while since I made one. Hot here now. More toward Autumn would be just about right.

WOOPS, I didn't mean to do that weezo but, I've been thinking that, because it is short for Louise, sometimes said, "Weezie" for 'Ouise.
 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on August 03, 2007, 04:28:12 PM
Martin,

Thanks for the warning on Fisher Price, but it was on the local news a few days ago, and I noticed they were not on the shelves when I shopped yesterday. How I long to see good, basic toys on the toy shelves in stores!


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 03, 2007, 04:58:11 PM
So do all parents I guess.Try the old table games and see how they get off the PC.They love playing with other children and if they can lure adults to play then they won´t play anything else.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on August 03, 2007, 05:35:00 PM
Maddie,

Weezo stands for my middle name, which is Louise, and when I first met hubby he hung that moniker on me, and after a long time of not liking it, I've taken to it like a duck to water. The real breakthrough came when Taylor was born and coming to visit us often. It is hard for little ones to spit out Aunt Anne, so we decided I would become Weezo to him, and it spread.

Martin, I was hopping to find some hobby horses for the children, but alas there were none. Got to thinking that hubby and I could make some hobby horses for the crowd of neices, nephews and their growing offspring for Christmas. It should be simple for him to find fat dowels and shape and paint them, and I can make a horsehead patterns, and stuff it. Not sure how we will attach the head to the dowel yet, but it will come to us. Nice thing about hobby horses, it takes a long time for a child to outgrow the fun of riding one! We need a return to the old-fashioned toymaker who seems to appear only in old-timey stories and tales from other countries. Surely there were some in this country.

I have also thought of doing what my grandmother did for her hoard of grand daughters. She bought baby dolls and made a wardrobe for them, and it was the delight of Christmas to so see Grandma and bring home a fresh addition to our every-growing doll collection. I learned to sew on a machine making clothes for my own dolls and those of my sisters. Then I "graduated" to making my own clothes.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 03, 2007, 07:46:24 PM
SPOON BREAD

HATE TO TELL YOU but this is The New York Times Cook Book version, collected recipes between 1950 and 1960. Unless I'm mistaken,  Craig Claiborne is actually from the South. Yes,"Born in September 4, 1920 in Sunflower, Mississippi."... " food critic and editor from 1959 to 1987"..."died Saturday, January 24, 2000, at the age of 79"...

His mother, Kathleen, was a skilled southern cook, and Claiborne's childhood memories are filled with the smells of fresh chopped onion, garlic, and green pepper. { The young Claiborne often sought solace in the company of his mother's Black kitchen and housekeeping staff, whose food, humor and culture he came to love.

He attended Mississippi State College, but opted out of the premedical program. Instead, he switched to the University of Missouri, where he studied journalism. Next, Claiborne became a communications specialist in the Navy after graduating in 1942. After that, he was promoted to executive officer on a chase sub.

After World War II, he took a string of jobs in public relations. Although the positions often required him to take clients out to fine restaurants, his low salaries forced him to cook for himself, mostly. But he quickly developed a passion for cooking, and moved to France to be closer to French cuisine. There, he recalled being "consummately happy" over the sumptuous food.

During the Korean War Claiborne was stationed on a Pacific atoll. There, unhappy, he thought about a way to combine two things he enjoyed doing. What he came up with was to become food editor of "The New York Times." Although the position was too ambitious for him to let himself think seriously about it, after the war he studied classic French cuisine and entertaining at Ecole Hoteliere de la Societe Suisse des Hoteliers, near Lausanne, Switzerland. His first culinary job was a receptionist at "Gourmet Magazine," where he eventually moved up to become an editor.

In 1957 "The New York Times" food editor position was open, and Claiborne applied even though traditionally women held the position. Once hired, he quickly became one of the country's foremost food critics, introducing American kitchens to the culinary delights of France, Italy, and Asia. He became known for his gentlemanly authoritarian manners, and perceptive appraisals of the New York restaurant scene. He even cited a maitre d'hotel's red pencil poking out of a shirt pocket as evidence that the restaurant was declining.

After his doctor told him to limit dietary salt and fat, millions of Americans followed his lead toward leaner, healthier cooking. "Craig Claiborne's Gourmet Diet" included his favorite low fat, low salt, meals. Other books were "The New York Times Guide to Dining Out in New York," (1985); "The New York Times Cook Book," published in 1961, is the one we can start with, impressively bound in shiny black with gilt decorations on the more than 718 pages-wide spine,I bought it for probably 50 cents to a dollar when I moved to a region that did not know about reading The New York Times until Starbucks opened their coffee-houses closer to the very end of the 20th.century.

(continue to recipe:


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 03, 2007, 07:47:14 PM
Spoon Bread       Serves 6 generously

3 cups milk                                         1 teaspoon salt
3/4 cup cornmeal(yellow or white)          2 eggs,separated
2 Tablespoons butter                            1 teaspoon baking powder

1.Scald two cups of the milk in a double boiler. Mix the remaining milk with the cornmeal, add to the scalded milk and cook,stirring frequently, thirty minutes. Cool slightly.

2.Preheat oven to moderate(375 degrees F.)

3.Add the butter,salt, and beaten egg yolks to the cornmeal mixture and mix well. Add the baking powder and mix. Fold in the egg whites,stiffly beaten.

4. Turn the mixture in a greased casserole and bake about thirty minutes.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: pontalba on August 04, 2007, 09:44:43 AM
Thanks madupont, appreciated.  It doesn't sound like the one my family made, but it does sound verra good. 

reader, that is a neat age finder, nice to know I'm 8 years younger than I am.   ::)

Regarding the raisins, I was given those little red boxes when I was a kid, pretty young....instead of candy.  But I still managed to develop a craving/dependence on Milky Ways later in life.  LOL
Didn't know they were bad for dogs though.
I know dogs can't have onions or chocolate though.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 04, 2007, 09:50:51 AM
pontalba,

Since you mentioned grated corn, and I assume that you are speaking of fresh corn, perhaps, you meant scallop of corn rather than corn batter?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 04, 2007, 01:33:30 PM
This father´s heart is sure excellently fit.
The wonder of love:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-wpNGQzRqQ


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: pontalba on August 04, 2007, 03:02:47 PM
pontalba,

Since you mentioned grated corn, and I assume that you are speaking of fresh corn, perhaps, you meant scallop of corn rather than corn batter?
They called it "corn pudding' and it was a sort of custard like consistency.  I do remember milk and maybe eggs, not sure about eggs though being used with the grated corn, yes fresh corn grated off the cob.  I think it was more to "milk" the corn and use the fluid.  I think green onions too, although it was plain.

Um, guess you can tell I am not much of a cook,  ;D  I can get by, but really until the last few years I didn't have much call to cook for myself or others.   My mother or Aunt usually did the major cooking, or my husband. 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 05, 2007, 01:55:18 PM
I had a southern friend in college who said he was very fond of a southern dish called "poontang."  What exactly is this, and does anyone have a good recipe for it?



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 05, 2007, 03:21:37 PM
You won't get any responses on that in the  nutritional aspects of this forum,barton, but someone will it explain it in Comedy or that Creative writing exercise they are  having imitating renga in a variety of aphoristic scurrility  of what ever sort they feel useful for the occasion. Since it doesn't actually approximate renga in any way, according to subject or syllabic count, they say pretty much what they want, to see who can go the furthest.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on August 05, 2007, 04:08:03 PM
Barton, don't chomp down too hard, by mistake, when you've got your tongue in your cheek.

Putting fresh corn shaved from the cob in a skillet with a bit of cream, a tad of butter, and salt, pepper to taste will give you a delicious side dish with hardly any fuss.  Add chopped green onions on individual servings.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on August 05, 2007, 07:39:37 PM
Barton,

I don't know where in the south your friend was from and what the word "poontang" means there, but whenever I've heard the word is was suggested as that which one gets by crawling the country bars on a Saturday night. The word was used by a female.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on August 06, 2007, 12:57:52 AM
Another term used for the delectable dish called poontang is hair pie. Hubby is laughing hard at the request for the recipe. During the swinging sixties, the pink middle was often augmented with small berries, spicey hot dogs, or canned whipped cream. The additives have decreased in favor in more recent years.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on August 06, 2007, 01:00:04 AM
In the sixties, the best source of poontang was on Hull Street in South Richmond. Later, the source moved to Jeff Davis Highway between Richmond and Petersburg.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 06, 2007, 09:31:41 AM
"....imitating renga in a variety of aphoristic scurrility...."

You have no idea how many times that very phrase has crossed my mind.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 06, 2007, 11:51:37 AM
barton,

Well, you know, somebody has got to review these things.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 07, 2007, 09:41:26 AM
I'm probably just envious and wish I could write as well as you, Madu.

Since it looks like no one has found that recipe I requested, let me toss out another question -- any vegetarians here, and if so, any difficulties with protein cravings or feelings of fatigue on your path to non-butchery?  I've been eating vegetarian about 4 days a week now for some time and would like to just simplify my fridge and stay low on the food chain.  The problem is, so many factors affect our energy, it's hard to tell what really happens in a week when I don't eat any meat at all.  I know all the lore, and the scientific bases, for getting complementary protein and so on, but I feel like I'm coming up short sometimes when I eat purely vegetarian.  It is sort of hard to parse out real deficiency and culturally induced neuroses, esp. among men, about not getting enough protein.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on August 07, 2007, 11:27:44 AM
Since it looks like no one has found that recipe I requested

I thought it was more a matter of finding that particular item than preparing it.  But it's not in my area of expertise, so I stand corrected.

In today's WSJ -- right next to the editorial proposing Bill O'Reilly for Supreme Court justice -- there's a little article concluding that convenience foods aren't all that time-saving, besides being loaded with sodium and junk we don't need to be eating.  This of course is nothing new, but it's nice to feel validated about some of the debates I've had with family members and co-workers.  Here's the link if anyone's interested.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118644320548689855.html?mod=todays_us_nonsub_pj

As a part-time vegatarian myself, I have no advice on the purely vegetarian energy issue. 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 07, 2007, 12:12:45 PM
Thanks,harrie.  I think you've resolved the problem which does have some racist overtones;but,'nuff said(and,more than likely the pertinent problem of short-cuts of US convenience food sold at every grocery store and supermarket). 

Just as "snail mail" has been compared to e-mail, over in Europe "slow food" had been prepared  enthusiastically for some while compared to our fast food which they didn't want to show up in the first place but then they realized we probably had a larger problem than franchises on every corner, something that has more to do with what barton brings up about whether he is getting enough protein as well as eliminating all the food additives. Americans are just now beginning to cheer lead their discovery of European "slow food".

Barton will  probably do fine if he pays attention to getting enough protein in other forms, vegetable as well as I forgot to ask if he allows himself fish, eggs, cheese in what quantity? I have to check out one of my favorite sources before I go recommending it currently because there are new scares currently because of shaggy distribution paths of production in China that gets sold to Europe and may end up in US anyway, so I want to double-check. Likewise we have a shaggy advertising system which tones down the awareness that maybe you are not getting non-genetically modified soy products. How can you tell? It has to be stamped as such.  There's an awful lot of fine print reading on today's grocery shopping trips.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 07, 2007, 12:40:06 PM
Mady,  well I wouldn't eat fish as part of a vegetarian diet because, as far as I know, a fish is a sentient animal and its flesh would qualify as meat.  So when I'm eating vegt'n, it's just grains and pulses and seeds and so forth, with some yogurt and cheese, too, in small doses.  Like Sir Alfred Hitchcock, I do not care for eggs.





Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on August 07, 2007, 01:01:23 PM
Barton...my son eats only vegetarian.  He tends to eat a small amount of very good cheese each day.  He says that by eating the good stuff, he tends to eat less and so avoids the fat and cholesterol issue. 

Also good...and zero fat or cholesterol....lentils, kidney beans, chickpeas (hummus is a great raw veggie dip), black beans and the like.

And our in-house (not too funny elsewhere) joke as I hand him a can of Planters...."nuts to you!"



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on August 07, 2007, 01:04:41 PM
Oh...and what are pulses?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 08, 2007, 09:51:29 AM
"pulses" -- a general term for

"...Also good...and zero fat or cholesterol....lentils, kidney beans, chickpeas (hummus is a great raw veggie dip), black beans and the like...."

--also includes all members of the pea family, as well as all the bean family including soy. 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 08, 2007, 12:36:05 PM
The above, you named them.   That was a point I didn't clarify as protein.   My husband's family were and are vegetarians; some of the things that I was used to finding available are not as available today of things they preferred to eat five decades ago.  The adults at that time had of course been vegetarian for a long time before that.
 
That said, you know that peculiar human reaction to turn around and do the opposite because they had not been allowed to when young, this came to the fore when I caught on that my son was being fed cold cuts on visits to father simply because father had never been able to eat any
when he was a son.    More to it I'm sure, like not being involved with
cooking these  non-meat dishes in his lifetime; and eating "some of
that, and some of this over here" when eating in restaurants although he had a nice squared off group of women unbeknownst to each other
who appeared domesticated enough to cook but probably had not done much of it during their time limits imposed by their work routines.
 
I found that amusing, while tending my own garden and cooking as usual. I still eat fish which are cold water fish that are not farmed.
 
There is very little meat available which you can verify. Once again,
Britain is having a current encounter with hoof and mouth disease. I
gather there are lots of people who do not like eggs just as I do not like milk; but I use both in cooking and baking. 
 
One of the problem that the  dialectics of sentience presents us is the sentient being whom I know best would not be considered appetizing, and although I enjoy observing the persisting habits of bovines who have a family life, when it comes right down to categorizing our food with the approval rating of Sentient Being, we have very little of the same reverence or even regard for  other sentient beings who although  unlikely to come up on our menu, we eat up readily. It's like Brecht said,
What keeps a man alive? He lives on others.... He eats them whole if he can.

The chorus shouts the end-line, "WE EAT OUR HAMBURGERS RAW!"


(If you are looking for those, try that link I placed much earlier for foods from LaFarge, Wisconsin which does not put hormones in the feed for dairy cows; which translates, they take care with production of hamburger. I can never remember the name on the pound packages in the freezer though.  Until I pick up another to post the correct product name, take a look at www.laurasleanbeef.com

You don't need more than 1/4 lb of meat per day as protein. In summer, other proteins might be more appetizing.  But endless peanut butter as my husband learned in childhood would eventually bore me. I do like it thinned when I make p'nut sauce for Thai noodles with enough hot seasoning and vegetables.  I also like non-gmo Japanese tofu with cucumbers(raw) in a season sauce, served on ice-cubes!  Will get back to you about the other Japanese style standby that I use for "substitute Pork" Donburi













Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: nytempsperdu on August 09, 2007, 12:22:10 AM
Wandering lonely as a cloud....I mean wandering through accumulated posts from time away, I felt rewarded when I came upon the spoon bread posts, recipes, etc.
Many thanks for the memories those produced.  My attempts to reproduce my foster mother's splendid spoon bread may have suffered since her measurements were all based on the size of her palm (5 handsful of corn meal, this much salt in the middle of the palm, etc.) instead of my child-size one.  Maybe I'll try some recipes posted here...or maybe some memories are best left as such.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 09, 2007, 11:34:29 AM
Plenty of energy for veggies if they eat pasta.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 09, 2007, 10:35:20 PM
Eating commercial chicken can make you test positive for illegal drug use.
An athlete who failed a sports drug test complained that eating commercial meat was the reason for the drug residues found in his urine. To test his defense, eight men consumed meat from chickens that had been treated with a growth-promoting steroid (methenolone heptanoate) in amounts approved for use by the USDA. "Fifty percent of the samples collected 24 hours after consumption of the intramuscularly dosed chickens were confirmed positive. Hence, eating meat containing small amounts of injected hormone may constitute a serious liability to the athlete." (Kicman, A. T., D. A. Cowan, et al. (1994). "Effect on sports drug tests of ingesting meat from steroid (methenolone)-treated livestock." Clin Chem 40(11 Pt 1): 2084-7.) Yet another reason for switching to drug-free, pastured poultry.

 

http://www.goodearthorganicfarm.com/     Dallas,



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 13, 2007, 01:49:35 PM
No wonder I can't get a decent job.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 14, 2007, 09:30:13 AM
You weren't an English major, were you?  That kills a job opportunity even faster than a positive drug test.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 14, 2007, 10:42:10 AM
Even worse than that - I majored in history.

Just kidding about the job though - my job is okay I guess, only it bores me to death and I want more money.

Speaking of fitness, I seem to be falling apart at the seams - my upper and lower back are just shot and seem to get worse by the week.  Ugh it sucks -and orthopedic surgeons are bastards.

On a more cheerful note, uh, well never mind.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 14, 2007, 11:22:32 AM
I won't ask if you've tried stretching, moist heat, abdominal (and generally "core") exercises, and all that -- bad back problems tend to motivate people to try just about everything.  My experience is that if you can even partially do basic yoga positions, they really help.  Also, sitting in a chair without a backrest (or scooting forward so you're not using a backrest) can help tone the muscles, though you have to start out doing that just a little bit at first and then work up.  I was married to a musician and knew a lot of musicians (symphony type) who kind of obsessed about posture and back muscles, and they all swore by sitting without a backrest and very upright posture.
She, my ex, was 5/8 and weighed about 115, and yet could lift stuff like a Teamster, so I guess there's something to it.




Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 14, 2007, 12:13:05 PM
The *in* food in Argie beaches is eating boiled corn from guys who walk around carrying them in a telgopor box.It´s delicious and healthy. It´s a good business,too.The kilo costs 5 pesos and it´s sold at 3 pesos each.The guy pays no taxes or anything, least of all permission.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Lhoffman on August 14, 2007, 12:22:34 PM
The *in* food in Argie beaches is eating boiled corn from guys who walk around carrying them in a telgopor box.It´s delicious and healthy. It´s a good business,too.The kilo costs 5 pesos and it´s sold at 3 pesos each.The guy pays no taxes or anything, least of all permission.

What is a "telgopor box?"  One of those silverish looking things?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 14, 2007, 12:36:55 PM
I won't ask if you've tried stretching, moist heat, abdominal (and generally "core") exercises, and all that -- bad back problems tend to motivate people to try just about everything.  My experience is that if you can even partially do basic yoga positions, they really help.  Also, sitting in a chair without a backrest (or scooting forward so you're not using a backrest) can help tone the muscles, though you have to start out doing that just a little bit at first and then work up.  I was married to a musician and knew a lot of musicians (symphony type) who kind of obsessed about posture and back muscles, and they all swore by sitting without a backrest and very upright posture.
She, my ex, was 5/8 and weighed about 115, and yet could lift stuff like a Teamster, so I guess there's something to it.




I've tried everything but getting amputated from the waist down.  Went to the physical therapist last week and she gave me reams of advice and papers on what to do and what not to do if you have a bad back.  Never sit on comfortable furniture like sofas and easy chairs, always keep your back AGAINST THE CHAIR to avoid strain, sit up straight, hunker down on your knees to do everything (even though they're shot too) and do posture correcting exercises (for the neck) and other stuff for the lumbar area.  Anyway, the little we did in physical therapy had me flat on my back for two days and I am talking about AGONY.  Physical therapy is postponed until I see the doc again, the fourth time now and still no relief in site as the pain seems to get worse in one area or another by the day.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 14, 2007, 12:37:41 PM
The *in* food in Argie beaches is eating boiled corn from guys who walk around carrying them in a telgopor box.It´s delicious and healthy. It´s a good business,too.The kilo costs 5 pesos and it´s sold at 3 pesos each.The guy pays no taxes or anything, least of all permission.

Sorry wrong forum this was meant to go into Foof Matters.

While at it may I offer Desdemona some advice.I´m a sports person,i ride,i trkk,i go to the gym etc. but some years ago I started having upper and lower back pain.
Doctors don´t know a thing neither do phisiothereapists about this sort of ailment.The professional you have to see is an ostheopatist.

There are two schools of ostheopaty ,the Tibetan (like my doctor,Bronfman) and the French.They´ll look at all the x rays and whatever and they´ll tell you those are the photographs but they see the whole film. My doctor stretched me and pulled here and there for several months but after session 2 I never felt any back pain anymore no matter what I do.(BOCA,i know I´m feeding you)



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 14, 2007, 12:45:42 PM
*telgopor* is *styrofoam*


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 14, 2007, 01:31:28 PM
martin -

I don't trust back-crackers.  I can "adjust" myself just by moving - Snap, Crackle, Pop. 





Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: pontalba on August 14, 2007, 03:53:13 PM
martin -

I don't trust back-crackers.  I can "adjust" myself just by moving - Snap, Crackle, Pop. 
It is difficult, practically impossible to find a good chiropractor, but if once found, not to be traded, and worth travelling 50 miles to visit.  Been there, done that.

But for 97% of them, I agree with you.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 14, 2007, 04:23:38 PM
I went to a chiroquacker many years ago who left me barely able to move after adjusting me.  A doctor (MD) told me that when they adjust your spine, it pops right back to where it was sooner or later.  I have a friend who has been seeing a back-cracker for years yet has never consulted an MD about what the nature of her back problem really is - I just don't understand that.  At least my orthopod, worthless as he has been so far, has been able to locate a bulging disc in my lumbar region, rather than telling me based on an x-ray that I have "spinal subluxation" or some other nonsense.  My friend says her back-cracker is using ultrasound on her back now - I think that's pretty scary seeing as how she has never had an MRI, but it could just be that the ultrasound doesn't do much of anything and just works as a placebo.

Martin, saw your post in Food and Nutrition to me - did you get lost? :o


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 14, 2007, 04:58:37 PM
DES, I didn´t say back cracker or chiropractors.I´ve been through that,too.

A *osteopathy* doctor is a doctor that has been to the MD school ,got his diploma and then studied osteopathy.

They pull you but they never crack you like chiropractors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine

The first times I visited Dr. Bronfman I hurt very badly afterwards,so much so that I had to take some strong medication.Since then I have hurt during the practice but never afterwards.Now I go every six moonths.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 14, 2007, 05:00:40 PM
desdemona,

Are you working on the computer for an eight hour day?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 15, 2007, 10:05:03 AM
I agree with Martin that osteos are better than chiros.  My own take on this is that disciplines that get at the basic flow of energy in the back, like acupuncture or yoga, are the way to go.  For pain especially, because pain is more about the energy flow, or "chi," than it is about the structure.  Most adjustments are not going to have any real structural effect (which is why chiro is such a scam).

Hang in there, Desde.  I had a bad back and now I have a much better back.  If you just keep at it, and find the right blend, and take long walks (overall muscle toner), you can somewhat heal a back.  If it was hurt by trauma, you might not get it all back (NPI), but there is always some capacity for regeneration.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 15, 2007, 11:48:54 AM
maddie -

Yes, I am a technical writer and my neck usually only hurts when I'm really busy.  If I can just screw around on the Internet all day it's not as bad.   ;)

martin - thanks for advice!

barton -

I agree that yoga is fabulous - used to do one-hour yoga classes two or three times a week and there really is something to it.  That energy flow, I believe, really does exist.  However, now that I have a bulging disc in the 4th lumbar vertebrae, I am being advised not to bend at the waist at all to prevent further damage to that disc (if it herniates, I have to have it replaced).  So, I'm assuming that yoga is out for me - down dog is definitely not an option anymore.  Plus, I think you have to be pretty fit to do a strenuous one-hour deal like that, which I am not at the moment.  I was quite surprised when I was told never to bend forward or touch my toes again.  I was so proud of being able to touch my toes still and it actually relieves the back pain, but apparently bending puts so much pressure in that area that there is a fear that the disc nucleus will blow out altogether and worsen the situation.

An update:  damn near fell down the stairs this a.m. and hurt my knee in the process.  I know none of you could've made it through the day without an update.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on August 15, 2007, 12:11:07 PM
Actually, Des, we do care about the condtion of your condition.  Keep us informed.

I have the same problem (of not being able to bend from the waist without serious consequences) so heed that part of the advice.  I do not twist at the waist either.  Nor do I get in-the-spirit while listening to Heard It On The Grapevine and start doing any form of undulating at the hips.  And, long ago I learned to be on the bottom with my (then) wife making wild love on top (this situation does not come up now that I live alone.)

Good luck with adjusting to your "back problem."  The family practitioner I had at the beginning of my troubles (the 50s) told me to stand up straight, sit on firm chairs, and to not bend at the waist.  I truly hope your disc does not herniate.  Mine hasn't, so far.  Warning.  Being so circumspect about how you "hold" your body gives you the reputation of being a priss.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 15, 2007, 01:47:59 PM
Well that's really sweet, donot - thanks.   :)

The twisting stuff really is something you just can't do, although I was given an exercise to do to help stengthen that area so that twisting doesn't do as much damage.  You lie on the bad side with your knees bent and stuff a pillow between them, then move backward from the waist until your back touches the floor, then back up, 10 reps, a couple of sets per day.   Makes my neck sore to do it though.

I will be more than happy to copy the info I got and snail mail it to you - it's pretty good stuff - you can send me a message on this board and give me your address if you're not scared I'll show up at your door wanting some sugared tomatoes and cream-style corn.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 16, 2007, 06:18:33 PM
DES, I still insist you see an osteo.It´s true that the body has a memory and after a while everything goes back but if the osteo is a real one -and a good one- you  will have to see him frequently at the beginning and then gradually space the visits.Now I see mine every six months!

Think of the muscles and tendons etc. as an elastic the osteo will pull them losts of time until they give up and keep the new shape in place. Which BTW is where they should have been to start with.   


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 17, 2007, 10:25:13 AM
Martin -

Apparently osteopaths don't do very well here in the Atlanta area, since the Georgia Osteopath Association lists only two or three orthopedic ostepaths, all way outside the ATL metro area.  The nearest one seems to be in Albany, GA, a long ways off.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 22, 2007, 06:51:32 PM
DES, that´s a pity.When you really need them you will  travel.I know people that visit Dr.Bronfman from Mar del Plata 400 km. away( i don´t know the mile thing).


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 23, 2007, 10:09:42 AM
Multiply by five, then divide by eight...

400 km. times 5 = 2000

2000 divided by 8 = 250 miles




Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 23, 2007, 06:29:29 PM
Wow, barton,

That was the most informative thing that I've read in the forums this week, other than Dzimas solving the Chinese junk problem of American History; that's where we send back all the junk they have sold to us, in
return for  which we get a Peace Treaty and we surrender or get pushed off the Wei Chi board of the world after which There Be Dragons.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 23, 2007, 07:58:38 PM
multiply by 5 then divide by 8
multiply by 5 then divide by 8
multiply by 5 then divide by 8

thanks Barton!

many were the times I was reading a book in English and when they mile thing came up ,I had no idea how to take it,also driving along US and Canadian roads.Once I was stopped by a policeman ,in the middle of nothing ,for passing the speed limit and when I explained that I didn´t make heads or tails of it he let me go.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 23, 2007, 08:53:14 PM
martinbeck3

I find that hard to believe. What's your magic secret?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 24, 2007, 10:59:34 AM
He has really nice boobs, which he was showing off with a low-cut teeshirt.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: kitinkaboodle on August 24, 2007, 12:24:12 PM
Boobs and tears, that's misty eyed tears not tears (as in strategic rips, though probably just as effective). 

A perfect driving record (so far)! ::)


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 25, 2007, 04:47:37 PM
NOW, NOW GIRLS  :o  don´t tell me that´s what you do. I´m shocked beyond repair,like my aunt Renée Rose used to say.

The trick is showing my Argie passport,looking totally confused and speaking like a latin Tarzan.

The FP looks frightened at the policeman all big wide eyes and coy smile and doesn´t utter a word (total miracle).

We have several little acts for the policeman-on-the road-cum driver and it has taken us on an international tour   


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 25, 2007, 06:26:19 PM
The actor Paul Ruud was part of some comedy revue in LA called, IIRC, "Boobs and Wieners." 


I have nothing in the way of male pectoral man-boobs.  Fast metabolism and an aversion to weight lifting, which never seemed to bulk me up like some guys and just left me inflexible.  But, later in life, I sort of got to liking "Qiqong" exercises, which strengthen the stuff that you actually use when you work on your house or in your garden or whatever.  It's like Tai Chi for morons -- you don't have to memorize so many movements and postures. 

 



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 26, 2007, 01:41:39 AM
Really? I was somehow led to believe it was some form of advanced Tai Chi.   Can you give me a few clues how it varies because I always forgot the pattern but now am very relieved that my body simply follows the shift of weight balance to the proper direction all on its own.

I am curious if Qiqong is more awareness of the breathing or is it a flexibility of essentially yoga asanas done Chinese fashion?                 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 26, 2007, 01:37:07 PM
It's not very yoga-like -- for one thing, the movements are mostly done standing and don't involve much extension or stretching of joints which is nice if you tend to arthritis (and I'm naturally stiff-jointed anyway).  It's more like simple Tai Chi movements, and you can just do a half dozen.  Also, there's not so much the slow-motion routine that some interpreters of Tai Chi seem to prefer.  You can do them quite briskly.  Tai Chi was originally developed as a kind of martial art and the names of some of its common moves still carry that legacy, e.g. "Repulse Monkey."  Qiqong was never a martial art, always intended as a tonic to internal organs and loosening the body for the labors of the day.





Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 27, 2007, 01:49:11 PM
Here I am at my new sport fighting The English Patient (notice the zip behind his mummy costume).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEZtonATr8Q&mode=related&search=

THIS is a man´s sport! Tai Chi is for sissies.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 28, 2007, 12:37:57 AM
barton,re:#226

I always found Tai Chi very relaxing.  It was like being asleep. That is an hour of that was equivalent to an hour of napping.  It restores energy.

Right now, I'm terrifically blocked up from a rapid change in weather that took place.  It was cold for over a week; then turned hot. By the second day of the heat returning, I must have slept in a draft and I'm in miserable lack of adjustment. I have Tiger Balm all over  my neck and under the jaw.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 28, 2007, 11:33:05 AM
Sorry to hear that.  But I want to know where it can be cold for a week, in August.  It's never cold here, in August.  (SE Nebraska) 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Dzimas on August 28, 2007, 11:36:13 AM
For me, there is nothing like yoga to restore circulation and get me going in the morning.  I wish I could bring myself to do it every morning.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 28, 2007, 12:03:52 PM
Used to have a cat who would lick my eyebrows to wake me.  It really gets you going.  I mean, you figure if someone is going to groom your eyebrows you'd better make the day count.

Yoga is more consistent, but harder to do in the morning when the joints are stiffer if you have osteo.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 28, 2007, 12:54:26 PM
Used to have a cat who would lick my eyebrows to wake me.  It really gets you going.  I mean, you figure if someone is going to groom your eyebrows you'd better make the day count.

Yoga is more consistent, but harder to do in the morning when the joints are stiffer if you have osteo.



Be careful! You should be thankful you didn´t get toxoplasmosis from that cat.It´sno joke.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 28, 2007, 07:10:07 PM
Sorry to hear that.  But I want to know where it can be cold for a week, in August.  It's never cold here, in August.  (SE Nebraska) 


East Coast, upper Mid-Atlantic, above the Chesapeake and the Mason-Dixon line.  In ten years, I've never experienced this happening before.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 28, 2007, 07:18:18 PM
Something tells me you won't get it from the eyebrows, if you wash  your face, even though the eyes are one of those  permeable membranes that you don't want to expose to trying on eye-make up  or letting the clerk give you a make-over no matter how exclusive the brand at the boutique or department store cosmetics counter. The sales-girls just don't get it, do they?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 29, 2007, 10:18:09 AM
A house cat would be an unlikely source of toxoplasmosis, which is primarily borne in rabbits.   I've never heard of cats getting it.  Cats usually get immunization for rabies, feline distemper, and such.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 29, 2007, 11:31:58 AM
barton -

Cats do carry toxoplasmosis - it will make its appearance in the litter box.  Healthy adults can catch it and not know they have it, but it can affect an unborn fetus, so preganant women are advised not to keep a litter box in the house because of the risk. 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 29, 2007, 11:49:44 AM
SEE!!! ;D


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 29, 2007, 12:33:00 PM
Wow, I did not know that.  Is this an eastern U.S. kind of thing?  Like Dutch Elm used to be, before it had crossed the Mississippi?  I will investigate further.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 29, 2007, 12:54:36 PM
It was a big news item for women several years back, Barton.  I am under the impression that it doesn't actually make cats ill, but I'm relying entirely on memory here.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 29, 2007, 12:58:40 PM
This should clarify the whole issue:

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/toxo.html


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 29, 2007, 08:01:47 PM
Thanks.  A little digging also helped me to figure out what I was thinking of, which turned out to be histoplasmosis, which is indeed concentrated in the eastern U.S. and is found in bat and bird droppings, including poultry.  Where the rabbit notion came from remains a mystery buried in the overcooked spaghetti of my synapses.  There is a dangerous rabbit in the film, "Sexy Beast," so I will lay the blame firmly where it belongs, in Ray Winstone's lap.

Bleedin' spunk bubble!



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 29, 2007, 08:38:46 PM
barton,

Really, there is a Dangerous Rabbit disease --leptoria... something, will have to look it up.

I'm afraid that we are scaring you to pieces, however.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on August 29, 2007, 08:43:44 PM
Leptospirosis (from rabbits, that is)? 
 
I thought that as long as barton doesn't get pregnant, he doesn't have to worry too much about toxoplasmosis.  Though I'm anything but an expert on the topic.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on August 29, 2007, 11:08:00 PM
Thanks,harrie.

I thought anybody could get it but that it is more dangerous to the fetus than the mother.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 30, 2007, 10:39:43 AM
May I also remind you of the rabbit threat which is strongly implied in "Donnie Darko" ?

Don't let your guard down.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 30, 2007, 10:59:03 PM
As a life-long fan of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, I am all too familiar with just how scarey a rabbit can be.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on August 31, 2007, 09:17:39 AM
Desdemona, I love your dog.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 31, 2007, 09:58:53 AM
Thanks, harrie - his name is Ivan the Terrible and he's about 10 1/2 - he has the most adorable personality, too.  We love him so much.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 31, 2007, 10:56:21 AM
DES, I used to have a black dog a mix between german shepherd and god-knows-what that was also called Ivan ,after the Trrible :)


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on August 31, 2007, 11:13:17 AM
I thought I was being quite original when I named him, only to have my little bubble burst when I received his papers - he is Ivan the Terrible XIV!!!


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on August 31, 2007, 01:05:27 PM
"after the Trrible"

As it happens, Nyhav, over in Meander, posted this morning on the Star Trek episode, "The Trouble with Tribbles."  I know this is stupid, but I love the way your typo dovetails so neatly with that.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on September 07, 2007, 05:52:03 PM

Really, there is a Dangerous Rabbit disease --leptoria... something, will have to look it up.


Just one more reason to hate rabbits...


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: CaptainCargo on September 14, 2007, 07:03:37 AM
Way back in the late fifties my grandfather raised rabbits. My six year old sister always thought he was the kindest man in the world for it.

They never told her that the stew she was eating was rabbit stew.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on September 20, 2007, 12:50:06 PM
I have a couple of rabbits that live more or less on my property.  They are wild, but have gotten so used to me that they no longer bolt, opting instead to do that  "I'm not moving, so I must be unobtrusive" routine.  I wonder if urban rabbits, like squirrels, are sort of forgetting their survival instincts in the absence of being hunted. 

My son, back in his early teens, used to be quick enough to pick up squirrels by their tails and swing them fast enough that they couldn't bend around and bite him.  I didn't encourage this at all, but had to grudgingly admire his skill.  He viewed it as a sort of funpark ride for the squirrel -- it would be twirled a couple times and then released so that it would fly into the branches of a bush or tree, where it would land and then sit there looking stunned for a minute or so.  I am a zealot about stopping any kind of animal cruelty, but it was really impossible not to laugh, and the squirrel seemed unharmed.  My son, let me add, loves animals and never showed any unkindness to pets, and somehow believed that this routine was fun for the squirrel.

 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: harrie on September 20, 2007, 02:13:27 PM
I can't wait to see what the karmic payback is going to be for the squrrelwhirl.

There are rabbits around our community garden field (now there's a surprise!), and they seem pretty comfortable with people, too. There are these two that almost every day hop along the one-lane access road, just ahead of the truck until a bend by a stone wall where they turn off.  The hubby thinks they're messing with him. 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on September 20, 2007, 04:41:59 PM
Rabbits are losing their habits so quickly that they have little choice but to get up close and friendly with people, although historically there seems to be evidence that they've always been that way.  Beatrix Potter managed to tame a cottontail she named Peter - she painted a charming portrait of him sleeping in front of a roaring fire in watercolor.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on September 21, 2007, 12:02:33 AM
Barton,

Your story about your son reminded me of my son playing "Bowl-A-Kitty". He was in his junior year of high school. We had just moved into this house, and hubby and I were married here. Before we moved, the cat we had graced us with a litter. The largest of the kittens was a solid white one, and quite regal. Son would assemble all the kitties in his room at one end of the hall with a slick, new floor. One by one, he would sit them up and slide them down the hall. All of the kitties but Snow, would scramble to get out of the slide. But Snow would site up primly and regally all the way until she hit the living room chair. Snow was the only one of the litter we kept, and she lived 13 years, so her early experience sliding down that hall never did her any harm. Son, of course, graduated, and went away to college, and his room became my computer room, now the tv room, and the hall is now carpeted. But, from time to time, when son is visiting and playing with the current cats, we remember "Bowl-A-Kitty".


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on September 21, 2007, 11:08:28 AM
A relaxed domestic cat will tolerate the most amazing things and even seem to enjoy them.  Probably it's partly being an agile predator with that amazing vestibular system -- it's nearly impossible to make a cat motion-sick.  Also, cats being solitary predators, the way that they get along with humans, per animal behaviorists, is to identify us as surrogate parents.  So there's a high degree of trust if the cat is generally well-treated.

 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on September 21, 2007, 11:13:38 AM
I don't know, Barton, I've heard that putting a cat in a washing machine will bring up the contents of their toenails. I've never desired to try it. "Bowl-A-Kitty" was done with kittens, less than 8 weeks old, when we started to give them away. But, Snow would tolerate anything son did with her. And, later, she was as accepting of anything hubby did. But she was distant with me. By contrast, my current cat, Rescue, will let me do almost anything for up to two minutes, then he's outa here!





Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on September 21, 2007, 04:27:05 PM
Speaking of cat behavior, it has been really interesting to observe my two cats, Kitten and Banjo, adapt to their new habitat after moving to a new house in June.

Both cats were completely disoriented and frightened at first.  Banjo, my old Tom cat, hid under my bed and yowled periodically for several hours, then fell asleep.  He began to venture outside soon after, but Kitten, who has always been a crazy female huntress, wouldn't set foot outside the house.

There are lots of feral cats in the neighborhood, so Banjo soon got hurt trying to establish his territory.  He was limping around- I examined him myself and couldn't find evidence of anything serious, like a broken bone or an open wound, so we figured he'd soon get better as he always does until I noticed a superating wound on his chest.  Another cat had bitten him, the wound had quickly closed, and he ended up with an abcess in his shoulder, poor kitty.  After a few days at the vets, he was released with this terrible open wound - God it was horrendous.  I felt so bad!  Anyway, the vet assured me he'd be fine, and now you can't even tell it was ever there.  At the time, though, he was a sick cat and had lost weight and muscle tone.  I was concerned.

Now, about two months later, he has built himself up by climbing my many trees - my son has caught him jumping from tree to tree out there, and the other night we watched him doing a strange warm-up during which he twirled a bit and then took a flying leap at the tree from a distance of about ten feet, grabbed onto it and hung there on the trunk a few seconds, then dropped to the ground.  Needless to say, he patrols the perimeters of the lot regulary and aggressively keeps other cats away.

Finally, Kitten has felt safe enough to go out and resume her former activities.  Interesting how she doesn't care to establish territorial claims at all and has never fought with another cat in her life except Banjo, whom she tries incessantly to bully or coddle, depending upon her mood at the moment.  Anyway, there will not be a skink or a lizard to found anywhere on my little half acre from now on, rest assured.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on September 21, 2007, 05:51:28 PM
Dessie,

Do you cats ever try to eat frogs. Neither of our current ones do, but the Original Snow would keep down the population of peep frogs who lived under a crack in the walkway. When she ate them, they always made her foam at the mouth, but she went on catching them anyway. Ours now, do like to chase the lizards from time to time. What are skinks?



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on September 22, 2007, 01:30:48 PM
"Banjo, my old Tom cat, hid under my bed and yowled periodically for several hours, then fell asleep."


Funny, that's how I handle moving, too. 

When I was growing up in Wichita (see Ginsberg's "Wichita Vortex Sutra" for details), we usually had three or four cats owning us, and one would take on the duties of perimeter sweeps and kicking intruder-cat butt. 

I am wondering what prompted the name "Banjo."  I'm guessing Earl Scruggs-like jowls, but I could be way off.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: desdemona222b on October 15, 2007, 02:51:42 PM
Skinks are these nasty little lizards that are very skinny and snakey-looking - their feet are very small and they really look like they're devolving into a snake.  Barton could no doubt give us a more intelligent description of the things, but they make my skin crawl.  I've seen Kitten trying to catch a frog in our pond - I've heard frogs make them foam at the mouth.  Yesterday Banjo killed and munched out on a squirrel shortly before we were visited by a very tame raccoon.  It was really Wild Kingdom at the old homestead.

Barton, Banjo belonged to an ex-boyfriend of my daughter's, and he's the one who named him - I always disliked cats because as a child I was allergic to them and my mother hates them.  Several years ago I had to go to England for three weeks on business, and while I was gone, the boyfriend decided to move to Missouri and came by to say goodbye.  Banjo wasn't crated and quickly escaped at the first opportunity, so I came home to find myself the owner of a male tabby that looks very much like the cat in your photo.  I said at first that we'd feed him but he couldn't come inside - that lasted maybe two days.  He twisted me around his little finger and I found that I wasn't allergic anymore.  A couple of years later I adopted Kitten, who has that classical tabby swirl on her side with a black fur background - just gorgeous.  I named her Gypsy but we kept calling her Kitten, so Kitten she is.

My little schnauzer is almost 11 years old and I'm thinking of getting a little schnauzer puppy.  The breeder I bought Ivan from called yesterday - she has a newborn female salt and pepper.  I am so tempted yet so impecunious!


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on October 19, 2007, 11:52:45 AM
Funny how allergies come and go.  Never had dog or cat problems, which would have been evident given the number of cats we had at various times --- plus there were several years when Olaf, a basic dog, would sleep with me and I would awake with my nose embedded in dog fur.  I've heard that some "pet allergies" are actually a reaction to something that the pet habitually rolls or wallows in while outdoors. 

I thought Skinks were the group that sang "Sunny Afternoon" and "You Really Got Me." 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: notrab on November 05, 2007, 01:21:11 PM
A brisk walk, an orgasm, and an espresso enema will cure anything.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on November 05, 2007, 01:30:59 PM
A relaxed domestic cat will tolerate the most amazing things and even seem to enjoy them.  Probably it's partly being an agile predator with that amazing vestibular system -- it's nearly impossible to make a cat motion-sick.  Also, cats being solitary predators, the way that they get along with humans, per animal behaviorists, is to identify us as surrogate parents.  So there's a high degree of trust if the cat is generally well-treated.

 

Are you suggesting that it is fun to spin cats in a circle and then watch them try to walk away like they are intoxicated?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on November 05, 2007, 01:32:57 PM
Those were the Muswell Hillbillies, Barton.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on November 05, 2007, 01:37:13 PM
I was surprised to ready your post that cats will tolerate almost anything as long as reasonably well treated -- but it makes sense.

Cats tend to embarrass very easily though don't they?

I can think of a couple of examples from my youth.  We had a cat that climbed up the slide on the swimming pool in our backyard and then lost her balance and slid unceremoniously (clawing all the way down) and splash - into the pool.   As there were several of us lounging in the backyard we could not help but notice the commotion and laughed hysterically as she swam across the pool to the steps.

She appeared to slink away in humiliation and hid in the bushes for 3-4 days before rejoining the family...


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: thecap0 on November 05, 2007, 02:57:21 PM
notrab,

A brisk walk, an orgasm, and an espresso enema will cure anything.



I don't know about the other two, but a brisk run seems to have cured another adrenaline junkie marathoner of living quite nicely.

Jim Fixx redux.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: ponderosa on November 05, 2007, 03:03:55 PM
notrab?

Has barton's alter ego made an appearance or is this an example of the proverbial fox in the henhouse stirrin' stuff up?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: kitinkaboodle on November 05, 2007, 05:33:59 PM
How about... both?!


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: ponderosa on November 05, 2007, 05:48:16 PM
How about... both?!

A hen in the foxhole?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on November 06, 2007, 10:58:16 AM

A brisk walk, an orgasm, and an espresso enema will cure anything.




Any chance your cybernym is short for "no trabajando"?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on November 06, 2007, 11:05:55 AM

I was surprised to ready your post that cats will tolerate almost anything as long as reasonably well treated -- but it makes sense.

Cats tend to embarrass very easily though don't they?

I can think of a couple of examples from my youth.  We had a cat that climbed up the slide on the swimming pool in our backyard and then lost her balance and slid unceremoniously (clawing all the way down) and splash - into the pool.   As there were several of us lounging in the backyard we could not help but notice the commotion and laughed hysterically as she swam across the pool to the steps.

She appeared to slink away in humiliation and hid in the bushes for 3-4 days before rejoining the family...



I've been known to do that myself, all the time, around here.

But interesting that you already knew that cats could swim quite well on their own. I learned that in a line of cats, when Mehitabel had produced Hecate who one day had her litter playing around in the bathroom and fortunately, I had a bubble-bath. The kittens hopped up to the toilet and gingerly stepped over to the tub where they fell in and just naturally swam. I'm not at all sure they even knew they were in water but they continued in motion. I hopped out fast, grabbed towels and dried all of us off before they caught a cold.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: notrab on November 06, 2007, 02:44:44 PM
"no trabajando"

-- or perhaps "not rabid" ?

My email box was hacked and I'm signing in this way until that one is mopped up and I'm sure it's still usable.

I said "brisk walk" not "brisk run" btw, Cap0.  I have no evidence that Jim Fixx died any younger as a result of running, however.  Some say the cardio stimulation he got actually prolonged his life, which was destined to be quite short due to a congenital heart problem.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on November 06, 2007, 03:45:04 PM
I'm glad you mentioned that factor because I just lost several hours of time, in between this forum and the next that I went to, with computer problems caused by people who have also caused this web-site to crash twice  in the previous month although they began somewhat earlier.  I thought you were a "newie" and wanted to welcome you.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: TrojanHorse on November 07, 2007, 08:18:07 PM
I don't think it was the run that killed Jim Fixx...he had massive undetected heart problems.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on November 08, 2007, 12:54:23 PM
TrojanHorse


http://www.moveon.org/cafire.html


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on November 09, 2007, 03:58:42 AM
barton,

The Peru FTA even contains NAFTA-style language that requires the United States to accept imported food that does not meet our safety standards.
If the Peru FTA passes (especially by a wide margin) it could open the door to other Bush administration trade deals with Colombia, Panama and South Korea. It’s not too late to stop the Bush trade agenda -- but only if we can convince our elected officials to vote NO.

                                                                               - provisions that allow foreign investors to challenge U.S. environmental regulations, food safety regulations, consumer protections and even court decisions in international tribunals that circumvent our judicial system



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: martinbeck3 on November 29, 2007, 04:30:45 PM
They tell me I´m very fit :-\ therefore next time I go to my favorite watering hole I´ll place the empty bottles in the ground and try this trick  8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tukdHKZAs1E


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on February 16, 2008, 12:09:09 PM
Coming soon:  The Ozzy Osborne Live Food Diet!  (Ozzy goes to "bat" for the raw food movement!)



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on March 01, 2008, 05:08:47 PM
Barton, let me introduce my son.

What are bad Fats?

Most bad fats are a creation of food industrialization. Truly, it’s difficult to get excessive amounts of bad fat from whole, unprocessed foods.

To understand how a fat becomes “bad,” let’s first talk about fatty acid structure.

Where a carbon-carbon double bond exists, there’s an opportunity for either a "cis" or "trans" configuration. I know, bordering on really "sciency" but bear with us here...

Now, naturally occurring unsaturated long-chain fatty acids are virtually all of cis configuration.
Cis and Trans fat configuration:
http://www.bastnet.com/fatfacts/imag...-trans_fat.gif

However, trans fatty acids arise as a by-product of fatty acid saturation during fat processing. And we've all heard how bad "trans" fats are for us.

Basically, trans fats are created by taking an unsaturated fat (soft or liquid at room temperature) and bubbling hydrogen ions through it - making it a saturated, trans fat - structurally. In terms of appearance, the natural oil "hardens" when it's hydrogenated.

Why would companies "hydrogenate" fats to create "trans" fats? Well, fats are hydrogenated by companies to improve mouth feel and increase shelf life. So, "hydrogenation" is good for the bottom line - but not for our health.

Now, keep in mind that not all trans fat configurations are harmful to health. Some are naturally occurring, such as the hydrogenation of unsaturated fat occurring in the rumen of cows and sheep. (CLA is an example of a trans fat that may be beneficial to health.) It's just the man-made ones that we should probably steer clear off.

Along with trans fats, saturated fats are sometimes touted as “bad.” And they can be when consumed in excessive amounts.

However, the amount found in non “man-made” food generally won’t contribute to chronic disease.

In excess and out of balance with unsaturated fats, lauric, myristic, and palmitic acids all are saturated fats that can raise bad cholesterol levels. However, stearic acid (another saturated fat) may even lower LDL levels.
Lauric, myristic, palmitic acids are found in:
--Beef fat, coconut oil, palm kernel oil, butter, cheese, milk, palm oil

Stearic acids are found in:
--Cocoa butter, beef

Major food sources of trans fat for American adults:
http://www.soyconnection.com/images/...pie_chart2.gif

Why are bad fats so important?
Since trans fats do not kink,or fold upon themselves like cis fats do, they pack into the cell membrane very tightly.

Clinical and epidemiologic studies suggest that this means an increased risk for coronary heart disease, cancer, and other chronic disease, possibly because of their potential to manipulate membrane fluidity.

The trans-isomer of oleic acid, known as elaidic acid, raises cholesterol and can contribute to heart disease as well.

Trans fats don’t only raise the bad form of cholesterol, but they lower the good form of cholesterol. High trans fat intake is also linked to a higher risk of Alzheimer’s disease and lymphoma.

Moving on to saturated fats, they do show a positive correlation with the risk of cardiovascular disease, mainly due to cholesterol raising effects and unfavorable shifts in the overall cholesterol profile.But it can raise both good and bad cholesterol levels.

Excessive intake of saturated fats is also associated with Alzheimer’s disease, poor blood viscosity, breast cancer, kidney disease, diabetes, multiple sclerosis, stroke and prostate cancer.

Bad fats can suppress the excretion of bile acids, enhance bad cholesterol synthesis in the liver, and limit uptake of bad cholesterol in tissues.

What you should know
Trans fats compete with essential fats and may aggravate essential fatty acid deficiency. A study published in the NEJM tracked the exercise and nutritional habits of 80,000 women over 14 years and found that the most important correlate of heart disease was the amount of trans fats in the diet.

Even a single meal with a high “bad fat” content can diminish blood vessel function and elasticity. This can contribute to the progression of heart disease.

When consuming a diet based on unprocessed, whole foods, accumulating high amounts of trans fat and saturated fat is difficult. Most of the bad fats are added to foods so profitability can be enhanced, directly or indirectly.

For extra credit
· Milk fat contains 4% to 8% trans fatty acids.

· Products containing less that 0.5 grams of trans fat per 14 gram serving may be declared as 0 grams on the label.

· For every 1% increase in total energy intake from saturated fat, a 2.7 mg/dl increase in plasma cholesterol level is predicted.

· The National Academy of Sciences 2002 dietary reference intakes concluded that there is no safe level of trans fat consumption. There is no adequate level, recommended daily amount or tolerable upper limit for trans fats. This is because any incremental increase in trans fat intake increases the risk of heart disease.

· The World Health Organization has recommended that trans fats be limited to less than 1% of overall energy intake.

· The following diet provides 20 g of trans fats:
2 microwave waffles (4.5 g)
1 small (1 serving) bag of chips (8 g)
1 order of French fries (4.5 g)
1 tablespoon margarine (3.5 g)

Summary and Recommendations
· Saturated fat should make up no more than 10% of total calories. For someone eating 2500 calories per day, that would be a maximal intake of 27 grams of saturated fat per day. If eating via PN recommendations, you should have no trouble with this. However, don't be too crazy about this. If your fats are in balance, you should be ok.

· Limit trans fat as much as possible. The less you consume the better.

· Avoid man-made foods with high levels of added fats.




References
Borer KT. Exercise Endocrinology. Human Kinetics. Champaign, IL. 2003.

Mahan LK & Escott-Stump S. Eds. Krause’s Food, Nutrition, & Diet Therapy. 11th ed. Saunders Publishing, Philadelphia, PA. 2004.

Groff JL & Gropper SS. Advanced nutrition and human metabolism. 3rd Wadsworth Thomson Learning. 2000. ed.

Murray RK, Granner DK, Mayes PA, Rodwell VW, eds. Harper’s Illustrated Biochemistry. 26th ed. McGraw Hill. 2003.

Barnard ND, et al. Nutrition Guide for Clinicians. 1st ed. PCRM. 2007.

Eller FJ, et al. Preparation of spread oils meeting U.S. Food and Drug Administration labeling requirements for trans fatty acids via pressure controlled hydrogenation. J Agric Food Chem 2005;53:5982-5984.
Do Your Kids Exercise?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on March 01, 2008, 05:14:54 PM
1 pound uncooked turkey tenderloin, cubed
1 medium green pepper, cut into 3/4-in. pieces
1 medium onion, cut into wedges
2/3 cup sliced fresh mushrooms
1 tablespoon canola oil
1 jar (15-1/2 ounces) meatless spaghetti sauce
1 cup sliced turkey pepperoni, halved
1/2 cup dry red wine or chicken broth
1 tablespoon tomato paste
10 ounces uncooked vermicelli
In a Dutch oven or large kettle, sauté the turkey, green peppers, onion and mushrooms in oil until vegetables are tender. Stir in spaghetti sauce, pepperoni, wine or broth and tomato paste. Bring to a boil.
Reduce heat; cover and simmer for 45 minutes. Uncover; simmer 15 – 20 minutes longer or until thickened. Meanwhile, cook vermicelli according to package directions; drain. Serve with sauce.
Nutritional Analysis: One serving equals: 321 calories, 5g fat, 40g carbohydrate, 4g fiber, and 28g protein

I believe that he called this,"Turkey sauce for Pasta" and suggested using "spaghetti squash", in another side bar of his newsletter.

Not bad for a newsletter on nutrition and health as I only spotted one typo that "sounded-like", which we all mistake in our hurry.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on March 15, 2008, 11:57:48 AM
Barton, are you still out there? It's time for the mid-month update. Resolving the mysteries of two concerns: Who else wants the secrets of
Great Abs?  and  All About Cardio Training
and how much to do!

It never fails. As spring approaches people start thinking about getting in shape for summer. And every year the number one thing I'm asked is "How can I get great abs?"

You've probably pondered that question at some time or another and you're likely frustrated with your waistline. Maybe you've given up on your abs after doing dozens of crunches only to see zero results. I don't blame you.

Forget everything you've heard about how to sculpt your abs. Crunches simply won't give you a six pack.

You see, to do crunches with the hope that it will turn your midsection into a washboard is to operate under one of the most widely held fitness myths. I'm talking about spot reducing. Simply put, training one area of your body will not specifically burn fat from that area.

You've probably heard that spot reducing is a myth, but most people still train as if it is true. Doing crunches will not magically make your waist shrink, it will not cause your muffin top to disappear, and it will not give you washboard abs.

Only a drop in body fat will do that for you.

So what is the secret to great abs? Instead of endless crunches, the secret is a winning combination of fat burning cardio, resistance training, and proper eating.

It is absolutely possible for you to dramatically shape up your waistline before summer hits this year. Yes, Y-O-U. Weight loss is not reserved only for the people you've seen on the Biggest Loser or on diet pill infomercials. You can do it too.

Answer the following two questions to see how your routine measures up:

How often do you exercise? If your answer was anything less than 4 times a week, then that's the first thing getting between you and streamline abs. How do you define a fat burning workout? A routine including intense cardiovascular training coupled with effective resistance training. Do you do this?

I'm sorry to be the one to break this to you, but walking on the treadmill for 30 minutes isn't a fat blasting routine. Neither is a leisurely 20 minutes on the elliptical machine. The truth is that you can dramatically increase your results while investing less time when you exercise right.

Cardio exercise is all about maintaining an effective level of intensity. This doesn't mean that you should be out of breath or gasping for air. It does mean that you need to push yourself.

Resistance training is the second key part of a fat burning workout. This means working your major muscle groups against resistance in a way that stimulates your metabolism. Again the key here is to find the right intensity and to keep each muscle group guessing.

What kind of shape is your diet in? Diet is a big stumbling block for most people-especially as it relates to their midsection. Here's a fact: If your diet is out of control then your abs will be too. You can't trim your waist without trimming the junk out of your diet, regardless of how hard you exercise.


Keep calories in check. Do you know how many calories you eat? The best way to find out is to record everything you eat for a few days. Tally the number of calories that you eat each day and do an evaluation-feel free to recruit me to help out with this part. Together we'll chart improvements for your diet and adjust your calories for maximum results.
Just say "No" to junk food. While this may seem obvious, your definition of "junk food" may need an alteration. Refined sugar is one of the biggest culprits in the junk food world-it is found in soft drinks, blended coffee drinks, cookies, cakes, packaged snacks, and other sinfully sweet treats. Processed fat is another monster. As a rule of thumb you can safely view all processed or refined items as junk food.
Eat more frequently. The key here is to never let your metabolism "crash" by going hours without eating. One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to skip breakfast-as this is the meal that 'breaks the fast' that your body goes into each night. Stick with eating small meals every few hours and always avoid stuffing yourself.
You should now understand why you are better off not wasting time on crunches-while it is important to exercise your abs a couple of times a week, you won't expect fat to fall of that area after 100's of crunches.

Do you want to flatten and sculpt your waist in time for summer this year? All you have to do is decide that you really want it. Commit to yourself-you deserve it.

Be back with cardio information in a minute after I check out a few things


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on March 15, 2008, 12:05:30 PM
What is cardio training?
Cardio training involves exercising with the purpose of developing cardiovascular or aerobic fitness. Cardiovascular fitness is a good measure of the heart’s ability to pump oxygen rich blood to the muscles.

Cardio training is when someone exercises at a constant moderate level of intensity, for a specified duration, in which the cardiovascular system is allowed to replenish oxygen to the working musculature. Typical activities include walking, jogging, cycling, swimming, jump rope, stair climbing, and rowing.

Why is cardio training so important?
Cardio training plays a vital role in human health and performance. With regular cardio training, one can expect numerous metabolic changes.

So what happens with consistent cardio training?
· Increased cardiac output
· Increased oxygen uptake
· Increased blood flow to active muscles
· Decreased sub-maximal respiratory rate
· Increased blood volume
· Improved thermoregulation
· Increased mitochondrial size and density
· Increased oxidative enzyme concentrations
· Increased capillarization in muscle bed
· Lower rate of all-cause mortality
· Lower rate of cardiovascular disease
· Lower incidence of type 2 diabetes
· Lower rate of total body fat
· Lower rate of colon cancer
· Lower rate of breast cancer
· Lower rate of osteoporosis

What you should know
Just as with strength training, cardio training requires proper progression, variation, specificity and overload if beneficial adaptations are to occur.

When looking at how to design an effective cardio training program, consider the following variables:
· Mode
· Frequency
· Duration
· Intensity

Mode
You can alter the mode of exercise to your liking and/or ability. The following activities (among others) can be used for cardio training: swimming, rope skipping, jogging, cycling, cross country skiing, stairs, elliptical trainer, and rowing. When choosing your activity, consider the activities you enjoy, your skill level, your joint health and the surrounding climate.

Frequency
Frequency is the number of cardio training sessions performed per day or per week. This will be dependent on training status and intensity. 2 to 5 sessions per week will suffice. This depends on concurrent training. Health benefits can be attained by expending as little as 150 calories per day via cardio training. 20 minutes of cardio training, 3 times per week can maintain cardiovascular fitness levels (assuming appropriate intensity).

Duration
Duration is the length of the cardio training session. This is directly related to the exercise intensity. Strive for 15 to 60 minutes of continuous cardio training.

Intensity
Intensity of the cardio training can be monitored via heart rate response or oxygen update. The practical method is measuring heart rate. To attain optimal cardiovascular fitness, exercising between 60-90% of maximal heart rate is effective (50-85% of heart rate reserve).

Remember that heart rate increases in a linear fashion as workload increases during cardio training. The maximal level that can be attained is dependent on fitness level, age, climate, gender, medications, etc.

Maximal heart rate can be estimated by subtracting age from 220. For example, the estimated maximal heart rate for a 37 year old would be:

220 – 37 (age in years) = 183 beats/minute

(more in a second)


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on March 15, 2008, 12:12:16 PM
A more specific equation for determining the heart rate at which you would exercise is the Karvonen Method. This equation can be found here:

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/images/heart_rate_reserve.gif

Association between heart rate and cardio training intensity:

http://hsc.csu.edu.au/pdhpe/core2/aerobic/4-2/resting_hr.gif

Chart that illustrates level of exercise intensity and fitness benefit:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Exercise_zones.png

For extra credit
· Cardio training can be helpful for achieving optimal body composition because of the high caloric expenditures. It helps to lower relative percentage of body fat, but has little or no effect on muscle mass.

· Cardio training tends to elicit a greater cortisol response than strength training.

· High levels of cardio training are associated with protein loss from muscle which can lead to a reduction in mass and strength.

· Doing a high level of cardio training can result in a muscle fiber type shift from fast twitch to slow twitch. This would be undesirable for power athletes, sprinters, and Olympic lifters. However, this fiber type shift could be beneficial for recreational exercisers and endurance athletes.

· Performing regular moderate cardio training can increase glucose and amino acid uptake in muscle and liver cells. This can be extremely beneficial for long term health. It can also greatly influence recovery from strength training.

Summary and Recommendations
After you have established the total amount of time you can dedicate to exercise, set aside less than half of that time for cardio training. For example, if you are exercising 5 hours per week, then about 2 ½ hours or less could be devoted toward cardio training.

When your goal is to put on muscle mass while controlling body fat
o Perform 10 – 15 minutes of cardio training at a low to moderate intensity after strength training workouts

o Days off from strength training should consist of recovery, high intensity interval training, dynamic flexibility/yoga, or another bout of low to moderate cardio training for 20 to 30 minutes.

When your goal is to lose body fat and maintain muscle mass
o Perform 15 – 30 minutes of cardio training at a low to moderate intensity after strength training workouts

o Days off from strength training could consist of recovery, high intensity interval training, dynamic flexibility/yoga, or another bout of low to moderate cardio training for 20 to 30 minutes.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on March 15, 2008, 12:27:01 PM
Back to Basics

Losing weight may seem anything but simple. With all of the trendy diet plans and new workout fads-it is easy to become confused. The good news is that the basics of weight loss have not changed over the years. It all boils down to Calories In versus Calories Out. Too many Calories In, and you will gain weight. Extra Calories Out and you will lose it. Keep in mind that 3,500 calories equals one pound and every single calorie counts!


Fiesta Breakfast Taco
 This delicious dish is made with egg whites and sautéed vegetables and makes a wonderful light breakfast. Enjoy with salsa for an added kick. Servings: 2

Here's what you need...


1/4 cup onion, chopped
1 medium green bell pepper, chopped
1 teaspoon minced garlic
1 medium tomato, chopped
3/4 cup egg whites (about 4 large egg whites)
2 wheat tortillas
1/4 of a small avocado
A dash of Paprika
A dash of Garlic salt
Spray a medium frying pan with cooking spray. Sauté the onion, bell pepper and garlic until soft. Add the tomato and egg whites. Cook until the egg whites have set.
Divide the egg and veggie mixture between the tortillas and fold like a taco.
Slice the avocado and sprinkle it with paprika and garlic salt. Arrange the avocado on each taco and serve.
Nutritional Analysis: One serving equals: 243 calories, 5g fat, 35g carbohydrate, 6g fiber, and 15g protein.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on March 24, 2008, 11:38:47 AM
One staple of a sound body is vigorous motion, which stimulates circulation.  Try putting on long underwear and then placing a toothless gerbil within the undergarment, followed by duct-taping all points of egress (if the elastic is not sufficient containment).  Then, enjoy the dance!



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on March 24, 2008, 12:36:02 PM
Who was the guy that was recently rumored about? Or was that entirely Larry David's idea of an episode concept?


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on March 25, 2008, 10:48:19 AM
Due to a lack of enthusiasm, I've only seen three episodes of CYE, so I have no idea if Larry David ever dramatized gerbils set loose in undergarments -- if he did, I may have to give the series another chance.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on March 25, 2008, 02:03:25 PM
Yes. It came up unexpectedly.  This caused most of the women characters to get a strained expression on their face.  I could not even verify the exact episode at which this occured but, as I recall the fidgeting took place at a table among many, for those who gathered for the bas mitzvah of Larry's Manager Jeff's daughter.

I haven't kept up with things for quite awhile, as you said -- due to the strike, the hiatus was much too long, taken up with repeats, and I don't know where to begin! But, if I discover the meaningful synopsis(they usually are not; in an attempt to be tricky without giving away the plot), and if it is still showing, most of these are dumped into the kitty at HBO on demand for a stated period of time, and then where they go is anybody's guess, sold somewhere, somehow to continue earning something under new packaging. Perhaps they are in video rental; some things are, somethings aren't.  The basic bottom line of life.

Will let you know if any clue develops will pass it on. Apparently, all the women believed Larry had purposefully done this for some sick perverted reason.  That seems as good as any on which to build an unlikely story into a plot episode. But like Law & Order, Curb Your Enthusiasm dwells on detailed reworking of things that actually happened quite purposefully for some sick perverted reason because that fascinates the prospective viewers into becoming "regulars". Quite often the L&O made the situation more understandable to the voting public than the news had! I noticed that with the man that Rudy Guiliani was endorsing for some political office in New York because it never occurred to him that the public would ever notice the guy's weaknesses; I mean, Rudy never noticed these were "weaknesses" as he had them himself.

Sometimes the Crime shows are funnier than the  situation comedies.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition world-food-crisis
Post by: madupont on April 16, 2008, 08:30:03 PM
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/29266,features,world-food-crisis

It is on its way. Close to home.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on April 20, 2008, 10:27:14 PM
This is a week ago today, from Sri Lanka.

Traders want grace period, rice prices unstable
The rice market has still not come to normalcy due to confusion created in the market after the sudden imposition of Rice Price controls. More >>  Rice traders in Pettah requested the Trade and Consumer Affairs Minister Bandula Gunawardane to give them a grace period to dispose of the stocks of rice they purchased for higher prices, before implementing the Control Prices.
But Minister Gunawardane said that his duty was to protect the consumer under the Consumer Affairs Authority Act and not the trader.
He warned traders “Cons-umer Authority Officers will charge any trader hoarding rice or found selling rice above the control prices from tomorrow”.
Meanwhile, rice stocks ordered from Burma are scheduled to arrive in Sri Lanka shortly in the wake of the rice shortage. A senior official from the Hector Kobbekaduwa Agrarian Research and Training Institute said Sri Lanka has reduced the consumption of wheat flour by almost 50% and as a result rice consumption had gone up - a reason for the rising rice prices.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on April 21, 2008, 02:56:22 AM
DOWN WITH ETHENOL


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on April 21, 2008, 10:13:39 AM
Up with cellulosic ethanol!  (nonfood-based)





Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on April 25, 2008, 11:09:04 AM
Dried pineapple is good for the digestion.  I'm hooked on the stuff, carry large bags of it wherever I go.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on May 16, 2008, 12:28:26 AM
Barton,

How to Lose Fat with High Intensity Exercise and Why?

How's That Metabolism?

It's bound to happen to your friends. It's likely to happen to your family. In fact, if you take a look around, about 95 out of every 100 people will experience the dreaded age-associated metabolic decline.

Research now shows that, on average, folks experience a 2-4% decline in their resting metabolic rate with each passing decade after the age of 25. Add to this metabolic decline a 5lb loss of muscle mass with every decade and getting older is a depressing proposition.

Indeed, for most people these declines are all but definite. However, you're not most people. You've got access to us. And in this week's newsletter, we're going to teach you how to off-set what some erroneously believe is inevitable.

Will Work For Oxygen

When it comes to metabolism and muscle preserving strategies, intense exercise is the king. With it, you get to keep that muscle mass and fuel that metabolism. Without it, you get to politely smile while you wave bye-bye to your youth, muscle strength, lean mass, and metabolic rate.

Now, the big question is this; what qualifies as "intense exercise." Well, certainly resistance training (strength training) is one of the biggies. However, there are a host of other types. Here are a few, taken from the menu of activities that we've prescribed to our clients:

• Interval Running, Climbing, Cycling, and Rowing

• Resistance Circuits • Body Weight Circuits

• Rope Jumping (Skipping) • Running Hills

• Burpees, Jumping Jacks, and Other Plyometrics

• Medicine Ball Tosses and Rotations

• Kettlebell Exercises

• Tire Flipping, Fireman Carries, Farmers Walking and Other Strongman Activities

Basically, any physically demanding task that a) incorporates many muscle groups and b) is done near your maximum heart rate qualifies. So feel free to invent your own form of intense exercise.

Now, when you do an intense bout of exercise, you overload your muscles. This overload helps stimulate protein turnover, protein building, and gains in lean mass (or at least lean mass preservation).

But what about the cardiovascular system?

Well, with all those muscles doing so much work, the cardiovascular system MUST respond by pumping blood faster and delivering a lot of oxygen to your working muscles. So you definitely get a cardiovascular benefit from doing intense exercise.

In addition, your metabolic rate also benefits from the increased oxygen consumption. You see, the more muscle you have and the more exercise you do, the more oxygen your body will need. As oxygen generates 5kcal per liter consumed, a high oxygen demand means that your body is burning a ton of calories.

After The Storm

Now, it should be clear that DURING exercise, your oxygen demands are high. That's why you're breathing so heavy. You're getting rid of the carbon dioxide your cells are producing at a high rate and you're taking in additional liters of oxygen. However, the real key to intense exercise is what happens AFTER your exercise session.

If your exercise is intense enough, your oxygen demand remains elevated for well after the exercise session. With low intensity cardio, you only benefit from a few minutes of additional oxygen demand (and metabolic activity). However, with high intensity activity, the oxygen demand can remain high for anywhere from 6 hours to 48 hours, depending on the intensity and duration of the exercise session.

And remember, a bigger oxygen demand means more calories burned. So it's only your high intensity activity that boosts your metabolism 24-7. Now, the right question to ask would be this - why is oxygen consumption (and calorie burn) elevated after exercise?

Well, after an intense workout, it's necessary for the body to metabolize additional fuel, replenish energy stores, and reload the depleted oxygen stores in the muscle and blood. Further, oxygen consumption (and metabolism) is boosted due to:

• Higher body temperature

• Increased activity of the heart and respiratory muscles

• Elevated levels of hormones that increase metabolic activity

• Energy absorbing pathways and the conversion of things like lactate into glucose or amino acids

• Recovery of muscle damage

 So, with intense exercise, more oxygen is being consumed (and energy being used) during the exercise, after the exercise, and pretty much all day long. Interestingly, you burn a lot of fat too, during this post-exercise period.

During high intensity exercise, the rate of fat breakdown is high. However, fatty acid entry into the bloodstream is blocked. The good news - upon termination of exercise, this block on fatty acid release subsides and the fats overflow into circulation for eventual oxidation during the recovery period.

How cool - we're burning tons of fat even after we leave the gym!

Beyond fat burning, when you do high intensity activity regularly, additional muscle will be developed. This creates an even further metabolic demand for the body and more energy is utilized for normal daily activities, even at rest. Heck, only when you train with high intensity on a regular basis do you benefit from an increased thermic effect of feeding. So, make no mistake, if you want to avoid becoming another metabolic slowdown or obesity statistic, the bulk of your exercise should be of the high intensity kind.

But Easy Isn’t All That Bad

With all the talk about high intensity training and conditioning – one may be led to believe that lower intensity exercise and normal activities of daily living are worthless. Not so fast. With low intensity exercise, or any easy physical activity, more oxygen is consumed (and energy is being used) during the exercise itself. However you don't get that post-exercise, all-day metabolic boost. Nor do you build much muscle. So, from the "metabolic therapy" aspect of things, low intensity activity doesn't deliver the most bang for your buck.

Another drawback of low intensity exercise as your primary exercise mode is that there's an increased energy demand without any real muscle overload. Therefore muscle can become just another fuel source that is gobbled up to sustain your low intensity exercise energy needs. The best visual example of this scenario is the comparison between different types of athletes. Athletes involved with long, low intensity activities tend to be very thin and have minimal amounts of muscle mass. Athletes doing high intensity (thus shorter) activities tend to be bigger with more muscle mass.

However, again, don't take this to mean that low intensity exercise should be avoided. When combined with a high intensity exercise protocol, each of the drawbacks above is eliminated. The high intensity bouts boost muscle mass. And they also create 24-hour metabolism magic. However, the low intensity exercise does offer some additional calorie burning as well as improvements in the muscle gain to fat loss ratio when added to an intense exercise plan. Indeed, muscular sensitivity to insulin is increased for about 48 hours after a single bout of prolonged low intensity exercise. This probably explains some of the benefits associated with regular “non-exercise physical activity” during the day (e.g., stairs, walking to the bus, playing with kids, etc.)

Another bonus for long bouts of low intensity exercise is that the synthesis of new fat is temporarily inhibited, probably due to the low insulin levels and increased counter regulatory hormones. Exercise + Nutrition Unfortunately, many people think that eating an unhealthy diet can be reversed with more treadmill or, in general, gym-time. As you probably understand by now, sticking with the "I'll burn the Big Mac off on the treadmill" mentality could actually be doubly disastrous. More unhealthy food and more low intensity exercise can deteriorate overall health while promoting disease and deplete muscle mass in the long run!

But even with high intensity exercise, you still need to watch your food intake. Indeed, in a recent study we did, we were shocked to find that research participants training with an Olympic weight lifting coach and a group exercise instructor for over 5 hours a week saw little benefit from this training... In our study, everyone was shocked to find that even with 3 hours of training per week with an Olympic weight lifting coach and 2 hours of training per week with a body-weight circuit instructor, if participants didn't control their dietary intake, their results were not much better than if they had not doing anything at all.

That's right, in the 30 sedentary participants (35-45% body fat on average), without dietary control, 12 weeks of high intensity training produced a fairly disappointing 1% loss of body fat. Further, the participants lost only 1 pound of fat and gained 2 pounds of lean vs. the placebo group.

Are you surprised? Don't be. Even the best exercise plan, in the absence of a good nutritional plan, will disappoint. Make It Hurt So Good There is one major drawback to high intensity exercise. It’s extremely uncomfortable. Also, many folks seem to get wrapped up in one or two forms of intense activity and get burned out. Remember, anything that physically challenges the body in an intense manner fits the bill. It doesn’t have to be sprints or burpees.

Find the intense form of exercise that you can handle. Maybe you like doing repeated cartwheels or shoveling snow really quickly. Fine with us. Another thing, everyone is at a different fitness level. A hike outside might be pushing the anaerobic threshold for one person while it might be active recovery for someone else. Adjust accordingly.

Your body doesn’t know or care if you are:

• On a cardio machine or in a stairwell

• Lifting cobblestones for Grandpa on the weekends or doing barbell deadlifts in the gym with 24 karat gold plates It just knows it’s lifting something heavy and needs to recruit muscles and produce energy to meet the muscular demand. Ramp It Up Another important thing to know is that the body is excellent at adaptation and efficiency. Repeated efforts at the same activity can result in stagnation. Therefore, if you've been doing 3 - 20 minute interval sessions for the last 8 weeks, I guarantee that your body has already adapted.

You're going to have to bump up the interval time. Or the intensity. Variety can also be a great way to increase intensity. Try jogging backwards outside or on the treadmill. Monitor your heart rate and compare it to your regular forward locomotion. It will be MUCH higher (well, unless you regularly jog backwards). Doing activities fast and heavy can help too. Speed can increase muscular recruitment, along with additional loading. Keep that eccentric (negative) movement under control, but feel free and let loose on the concentric (positive) movement.

Exercise selection is another variable factor. Compare a one arm dumbbell preacher curl to a front squat/push press combination. Which is more intense? Which recruits more muscles? Which creates a higher oxygen (and energy) demand? Preacher curls aren’t useless, heck, Arnold did them all the time. They are great for building better biceps.

But, if you have 30 minutes of gym time, you may want to save the preacher curls for your summer vacation to Muscle Beach. In the end, the goal is to challenge the body in new ways while incorporating many muscle groups. Definitely have fun with it. But remember, it's supposed to hurt. And it's supposed to get harder each week.

Research Update on Intense Training Some of the ideas we have discussed are now being illustrated in the research. Check out some of the more recent studies...

Adding 45 minutes of aerobic exercise 5 days per week, for 12 weeks, had no effect over nutrition modifications alone. Utter AC, et al. Influence of diet and/or exercise on body composition and cardio respiratory fitness in obese women. Int J Sport Nutr 1998;8:213-222.4 hours of aerobic exercise each week had no effect on weight loss.Van Dale D, et al.

Does exercise give an additional effect in weight reduction regimens? Int J Obes 1987;11:367-375. This review concluded that aerobic exercise is not an effective weight loss modality in women. Gleim GW.

Exercise is not an effective weight loss modality in women. J Am Coll Nutr 1993;12:363-367. The addition of aerobic training did not affect overall energy expenditure in this study sample. Buemann B, et al. Three months aerobic training fails to affect 24 hr energy expenditure in weight-stable, post-obese women. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1992;16:809-816. .

Strength training groups seemed to lose more body fat than aerobically trained groups. And the aerobic groups seemed to lose more muscle mass. Geliebter A, et al. Effects of strength or aerobic training on body composition, resting metabolic rate, and peak oxygen consumption in obese dieting subjects. Am J Clin Nutr 1997;66:557-563.

No elevation in post exercise metabolism was found for the low to moderate intensity exercisers. Poehlman ET, et al. The impact of exercise and diet restriction on daily energy expenditure. Sports Med 1991;11:78-101.

Higher intensity exercise raised metabolism for 3 hours after the session. The lower intensity exercise group didn’t have the same elevation. Phelain JF, et al. Postexercise energy expenditure and substrate oxidation in young women resulting from exercise bouts of different intensity. J Am Coll Nutr 1997;16:140-146.

Intensity has the biggest impact on post exercise oxygen consumption (and energy use). Sedlock DA, et al. Effect of exercise intensity and duration on postexercise energy expenditure. Med Sci Sports Exer 1989;21:662-666.

High intensity resistance training will elicit a greater post exercise oxygen response than lower intensity resistance training. Thornton MK, Potteiger JA. Effects of resistance exercise bouts of different intensities but equal work on EPOC. Med Sci Sports Exerc 2002;34:715-722.

A 31 minute, high intensity weight training circuit elevated post exercise oxygen consumption for 38 hours. Schuenke MD, et al. Effect of an acute period of resistance exercise on excess post-exercise oxygen consumption: implications for body mass management. Eur J Appl Physiol 2002;86:411-417.

Low intensity exercisers lost more muscle and the same amount of fat when compared to high intensity exercisers in this sample. Mougios V, et al. Does the intensity of an exercise programme modulate body composition changes? Int J Sports Med 2006;27:178-181

Exclusive aerobic work may do little to prevent age related muscle loss and metabolic decline.Williams PT, Wood PD. The effects of changing exercise levels on weight and age-related weight gain. Int J Obes (Lond). 2006;30:543-551.

Plenty of intense exercise can offset age related metabolic declines. Van Pelt RE, et al. Age-related decline in RMR in physically active men: relation to exercise volume and energy intake. Am J Physiol: Endo Metab 2001;281:E633-E639. Lemmer JT, et al. Effect of strength training on resting metabolic rate and physical activity: age and gender comparisions. Med Sci Sports Exerc 2001;33:532-541.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on May 16, 2008, 12:29:56 AM
2) Barton

Maybe Dr. Berardi was onto something? Resting metabolism is influenced by exercise, energy intake, and their interaction. A higher G-flux may be more important than just “regular” exercise. Bullough RC, et al. Interaction of acute changes in exercise energy expenditure and energy intake on resting metabolic rate. Am J Clin Nutr 1995;61:473-481.Bell C, et al. High energy flux mediates the tonically augmented ?-Adrenergic support of resting metabolic rate in habitually exercising older men. J of Clin Endo and Metab 2004;89:3573-3578.

Despite a lower energy cost, the interval training group in this study had a more pronounced reduction in subcutaeneous fat (fat under the skin) when compared to the endurance training group. Tremblay A, et al. Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism 1994;43:814-818.

The higher intensity exercise group lost more fat than the lower intensity exercise group. Bryner RW, et al. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. J Am Coll Nutr 1997;16:68-73.

Intense training can create a “fat burning” environment in the body outside of exercise time. Talanian JL, et al.

Two weeks of high intensity interval training increases the capacity for fat oxidation during exercise in women. J Appl Physiol 2007;102:1439-1447. Strength training can help to preserve muscle mass and lower body fat better than aerobics. Geliebter A, et al.

Effects of strength or aerobic training on body composition, resting metabolic rate, and peak oxygen consumption in obese dieting subjects. Am J Clin Nutr 1997;66:557-563.

Resistance training helps to increase metabolism and fat oxidation, even hours after finishing. Poehlman ET, Melby C. Resistance training and energy balance. Int J Sport Nutr 1998;8:43-59.Hunter GR, et al.

 Resistance training increases total energy expenditure and free living physical activity in older adults. J Appl Physiol 2000;89:977-984.Osterberg KL & Melby CL. Effect of acute resistance exercise on postexercise oxygen consumption and resting metabolic rate in young women. Int J Sports Nutr Exerc Metab 2000;10:71-81.

Can you maintain muscle mass on an 800 calorie diet? With resistance training, I guess so. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good idea… Bryner RW, et al. Effects of resistance vs. aerobic training combined with an 800 calorie liquid diet on lean body mass and resting metabolic rate. J Am Coll Nutr 1999;18:115-121.

What about building muscle on 800 calories per day? It’s possible only through the modern technology we call “resistance training.” Donnelly JE, et al. Muscle hypertrophy with large-scale weight loss and resistance training. Am J Clin Nutr 1993;58:561-565.

Check out this comparison. Nutrition modifications vs. Nutrition modifications + aerobics vs. Nutrition modifications + aerobics + resistance training...Adding resistance training helped the subjects lose more weight. And maintain metabolism. Kraemer WJ, et al.

Influence of exercise training on physiological and performance changes with weight loss in men. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1999;31:1320-1329. Hunter, et al.

Resistance Training Conserves Fat-free Mass and Resting Energy Expenditure Following Weight Loss. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2008 Mar 6.

Wouldn’t low intensity aerobic work for 12 hours each week increase resting metabolism? I guess not. Broeder CE, et al.

The effects of aerobic fitness on resting metabolic rate. Am J Clin Nutr 1992;55:795-801.

Weight training may be more metabolically demanding than originally thought. Scott CB. Contribution of anaerobic energy expenditure to whole body thermogenesis. Nutr Metab (Lond) 2005;2:14.

Have 20 minutes to hit the gym? It may serve you better (in terms of fat loss) to fit in a circuit workout instead of the treadmill. Braun WA, et al. Acute EPOC response in women to circuit training and treadmill exercise of matched oxygen consumption. Eur J Appl Physiol 2005;94:500-504.

Any good news for those long-term, regular exercisers? Yes indeed. The more you exercise – the better you are at burning fat. Wong T, Harber V. Lower excess postexercise oxygen consumption and altered growth hormone and cortisol responses to exercise in obese men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2006;91:678-686.

A 2 hour increase in post exercise oxygen consumption was noticed with resistance training in young women. Binzen CA, et al. Postexercise oxygen consumption and substrate use after resistance exercise in women. Med Sci Sports Exerc 2001;33:932-938.

Before you get all “anti low intensity cardio”, data have shown that both walking AND vigorous exercise are associated with substantial reductions in the incidence of cardiovascular events.Manson JE, et al.

Walking compared with vigorous exercise for the prevention of cardiovascular events in women. 2002;347:716-725.

Point well taken? Are you convinced that high intensity interval exercise is superior? Now, before we go on – it would be foolish to say that lower intensity aerobic work is worthless. Don’t swear it off just yet. We all know the healthy and lean endurance athlete. We know the physique athlete who did one hour of power walking per day to tighten up the waistline and glutes. Etc. Etc.

As many people know, body composition is determined by an interaction between many different factors. Exercise, consistency with exercise, body type, nutrition, sleep, nutrition consistency, supplementation, medications and so on.

The most important factor with exercise is finding the variety that you are likely to stick with for the long-haul. What to Do Ok let's take all this theory and make it really practical.

Here's how, based on your body type, you might split up your activity if your trying to improve your body composition.

Ectomorphs-thin bone structure, fast metabolism

3 hrs/wk of resistance training 30 minutes/wk of high intensity conditioning

30 minutes/wk of low intensity conditioning

Mesomorphs-medium bone, moderate metabolism

4 hrs/wk of resistance training 30 minutes/wk of high intensity conditioning

60 minutes/wk of low intensity conditioning

Endomorphs- med bone, slow metabolism

4 hrs/wk of resistance training 60 minutes/wk of high intensity conditioning

90 minutes/wk of low intensity conditioning

Notes

The forms of exercise listed above are described here:

Resistance Training = Training with weights. Includes body weight training, some forms of yoga, dumbbells, barbells, kettlebells, machines, cables, med balls, etc.

Higher Intensity Conditioning = Any physical activity that uses a lot of muscles and causes fatigue in a short period of time. You can tell if you are doing it correctly because you won’t be able to go very long and will be sucking wind. One could use cardio machines, body weight, free weights, med balls, jump rope, hills, stairs, etc.

Lower Intensity Conditioning = Any physical activity that is easy and repetitive. One could do a brisk walk, hike, bike ride, sports, dance, rollerblade, flexibility work (static and dynamic), most pilates, most yoga, cleaning the house, walking the dog, etc.

Also note If you don't know your body type, that's ok. Simply start with the mesomorph plan and adjust as necessary. That's right, just as with your M2 Precision Nutrition practitioner style eating plan, you'll be basing your decisions on your results. So although the suggestions above serve as a great starting point, you might need to tweak them based on what happens.

 

Mr Fat Loss, Dr. R. Andrews, Dr JB and Precision team


A Whole New Level

Wait! Before you skim down to find which exercise I've labeled as the best, read the whole story...

It's always interesting when I'm approached and asked to pin down a single exercise as the one that will help lose the most fat or sculpt the quickest. I'm always slow to answer.

You see, I'm acutely aware of the fact that though an exercise may be perfect for Client A, it may not be the best choice for Client B-hence my hesitation to label any exercise as the universal best.

That being said, there are exercises that are better than others. And, yes, there are even a few that I would label as the best.

What makes an exercise the best?
When deciding which exercises to include in your routine it is important to consider the type of movement involved. The simpler the movement, the fewer calories you'll burn. On the other hand, the more complex the movement, the more calories you will burn.

Simply stated, exercises that use complex movements will deliver better results than exercises that use only simple movements. Complex movements recruit multiple muscles, some to stabilize and others to perform the movement. This process keeps your heart rate higher than a simple exercise would, giving you a more intense workout.

What is a complex movement?
A complex movement is a multi-joint movement that recruits large portions of the body to complete the exercise. Let's compare a simple movement leg exercise with a complex movement leg exercise:

The leg extension machine uses a simple, isolated movement to work the quadriceps. You're in a seated position moving only your knee joint. There isn't much involvement, if any, from other muscles and it doesn't burn very many calories.

Now let's look at a free weight walking lunge. You start by standing with your feet together and a dumbbell in each hand at your sides (or a barbell across your shoulders, or a medicine ball held at your chest, or even with no weight at all). You take a large step forward and lower your back knee, keeping your front knee at a 90 degree angle. Now you push off your front foot and pull your back leg forward, repeating the movement.

How many muscles did you utilize while performing the lunge? Probably too many to count.

You certainly worked your quadriceps, gluteus, hamstrings, calves, abdominals, supporting muscles in your shoulders, arms and back-just to name a few. You also raised your heart rate and really kicked your metabolism into high gear. That's what I call a great exercise.

Other ways to increase intensity
Using complex movements are just one of many ways to kick your workout intensity up a notch. Try incorporating a Super Set into your routine. To do so simply perform two or more exercises in a row and then take a short rest.

Or how about a Compound Set? Perform one exercise, rest, then perform an exercise with opposing body parts. To find exercises that compliment one another, choose ones that have similar but opposite motions such as a chest press and a row.

The key to finding the best exercise is to find the ones that bring your workout intensity to a whole new level.

I'd be shortchanging you if I named any exercise as the best. The fact of the matter is that it is a combination of changing your workouts up, using interval training, and even some good old cardio that will ultimately see you to your goal.

These methods will help you to burn more calories, increase your metabolic rate, and will stimulate the production of more fat burning and muscle toning hormones. Of course, there is more involved to achieving your fitness goals. You need to incorporate fat burning into your routine. You need to consistently challenge yourself during workouts. You need to take control of your eating habits and to get your diet dialed in.

So what's the best exercise for you? Find out-hit reply to this email to schedule your no obligation fitness consultation.


Clear Your Mind

Exercise is the most natural way to cleanse your mind and emotions. When your emotions are flustered and your mind cluttered, you will find refreshment after a good workout. When done correctly, it is only during exercise that your mind actually rests.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on May 16, 2008, 10:24:43 AM
"Lifting cobblestones for Grandpa on the weekends...."

This phrase conjures a lifestyle I can only dimly imagine.

I'm sticking with the gerbil, for now.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: Donotremove on May 16, 2008, 12:36:39 PM
Barton.   :)


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: madupont on May 16, 2008, 04:29:39 PM
"Exercise is the most natural way to cleanse your mind and emotions. When your emotions are flustered and your mind cluttered, you will find refreshment after a good workout. ..."

This was the part that I used to dislike when a dancer. You do all this in order to stay in top condition to dance well and appropriately. When you walk out of the studio and go home: Your mind  is incapable of thinking a single meaningful and creative thought with which to design  a dance performance of your own.

I can't recall anymore, at this late date either, whether it was Mary or Katharine Rexroth who had been dancing with the San Francisco Opera Ballet and decided to quit because, as she explained to her father, the dancers in the ballet chorus were the dullest unimaginative bunch that she ever(since she was used to a lot more stimulating  repartee in the weekly salons Rexroth had thrown, as "at homes", for all the years they lived in SF before he moved to Santa Barbara).

No, the physical life does not necessarily sharpen your intellect. I must note just the same that my son, who writes these from teaching experience, on one occasion was not up for the equivalent of "Lifting cobblestones for Grandpa on the weekends...." when I asked if he would move a secretaire down two flights of stair to the mother of the "movie star"(at that time, more of one of several tv serial players) who had loaned it to me.  She and I managed to do it ourselves. I don't know how but we did.


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on June 20, 2008, 10:08:07 AM
Since the feet in question wore running shoes, this seemed the appropriate thread to post this....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7458468.stm


It's funny, I had just been thinking about bacon, then about Kevin Bacon, who was in "Footloose," so that's a bit spooky.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: weezo on June 20, 2008, 11:02:43 AM
Does anyone know the benefits and pitfalls to taking Potassium? I sorta remember it is a dyretic, but am not sure.



Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: FlyingVProd on November 19, 2017, 07:18:43 PM
“Hair Is An Extension Of The Nervous System” – Why Native Americans Keep Their Hair Long

https://www.theindigenousamericans.com/2017/11/15/hair-extension-nervous-system-native-americans-keep-hair-long/

-------------------

Salute,

Tony V. 


Title: Re: Fitness and Nutrition
Post by: barton on January 09, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/09/gwyneth-paltrow-goop-coffee-enema-colonic-irrigation (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/09/gwyneth-paltrow-goop-coffee-enema-colonic-irrigation)

Humorous analysis of Gwynnie's latest pseudoscience promotion by an OB/GYN who blogs in the interest of public safety.  Please don't shoot coffee up your ass!



Title: ACQUISTA UN PASSAPORTO AUSTRALIANO REALE ON LINE,ACQUISTA UN PASSAPORTO REALE IN REGNO UNITO ON LINE
Post by: KindzaK on April 13, 2018, 06:56:25 AM
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http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
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Title: ACQUISTA UN PASSAPORTO AUSTRALIANO REALE ON LINE,ACQUISTA UN PASSAPORTO REALE IN REGNO UNITO ON LINE
Post by: KindzaK on April 13, 2018, 06:56:58 AM
Il nostro team e un produttore unico di documenti falsi di qualita.
Offriamo solo passaporti diplomatici falsi di alta qualita originali, patenti di guida, carte d'identita, francobolli e altri prodotti per un certo numero di paesi come:
USA, Australia, Belgio, Brasile, Canada, Italia, Finlandia, Francia, Germania, Paesi Bassi, Spagna, Regno Unito. Questo elenco non e completo.
 
Per ottenere le informazioni aggiuntive e effettuare l'ordine basta visitare il nostro sito Web:
 
 
 
http://www.buysellfakepassport.cc www. buysellfakepassport.cc
 
 
>> Contatti e-mail:
 
 
Supporto generale: [email protected]
 
Supporto tecnico: [email protected]
 
-----------------------------------
parole chiave:
 
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acquista il vero passaporto registrato online di Andorra
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===================================
 
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