Escape from Elba

National => Education => Topic started by: Admin on April 16, 2007, 08:58:18 PM



Title: Education
Post by: Admin on April 16, 2007, 08:58:18 PM
Discuss national education policy.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on April 22, 2007, 01:55:57 PM
The People's Stats


Ok, I did a little research. I have wrote many times that I believe most people are loving, caring people. I'm certain eyes have rolled at this thought, however I now have indisputable evidence that I am correct.


I wonder how people think. So I went to google and did a search. I put love up against hate.
War vs. Peace. Crime vs.Charity. Chocolate vs. Vanilla, Racism vs. Learn. What do people want?



Ding!!! Ding!!! Ding!!!


Love 908,000,000 vs. Hate 258,000,000
Wooooooo. As a fan, this is one of the greatest wins I have experienced. This here was the main event. Without question, when it comes to what people want, LOVE is the Heavyweight Champion Of The World.


War 594,000,000 vs. Peace 187,000,000
No surprise here. Too much war in this world. Many loving people going online to find out about it. People seeking peace has disappointing showing.


Crime 341,000,000 vs. Charity 96,700,000
Crime easily wins this battle. I look forward to the day when charity wins. I can't realistically imagine that any time soon.


Learn 599,000,000 vs. Racism 27,600,000
I doubt this epic battle will ever make headlines. An absolute slaughter. People are much more interested in educating themselves then they are thinking about racism. . Second only to love amongst all participants, these numbers certainly show the power of LEARN


Exhibition


Chocolate 112,000,000 vs Vanilla 33,600,000
Upset of the night. Both participants could be difficult to spell, but I expected a much tougher battle.


In addition, to gauge the validity of our numbers, we searched a contender that wasn't on tonights card.


Sex 399,000,000


I did think sex had a chance to beat love. Happy to say, not even close. Love left
all contenders in the dust.


THE WRAP UP: People want love. No doubt. The numbers don't lie. They want to learn. They're concerned about war. Who can blame them? Crime is a major thought on people's minds. People are more concerned about hate then they are about peace. Incredibly people care more about chocolate then they care about charity. Just as surprisingly vanilla was a distant second. Lagging behind all the worthy participants, racism. People aren't interested in it.


LOVE & LEARN, spread the words !!!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 22, 2007, 02:04:08 PM
I found this info for all to see...

HOW MANY DID
COMMUNIST REGIMES MURDER?
By R.J. Rummel
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note that I completed this study in November 1993 while still engaged in collecting democide data. Not all the democide totals I mention here may be complete, therefore. For all final estimates, see the summary table in Statistics of Democide.

In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 22, 2007, 02:07:10 PM
Figure 2 shows the major sources of death for those murdered under communism and compares this to world totals for each source for this century. A few of these sources require some clarification. Deaths through government terrorism means the killing of specific individuals by assassination, extrajudicial executions, torture, beatings, and such. Massacre, on the other hand, means the indiscriminate mass killing of people, as in soldiers machine gunning demonstrators, or entering a village and killing all of its inhabitants. As used here, genocide is the killing of people because of their ethnicity, race, religion, or language. And democide through deportation is the killing of people during their forced mass transportation to distant regions and their death as a direct result, such as through starvation or exposure. Democidal famine is that which is purposely caused or aggravated by government or which is knowingly ignored and aid to its victims is withheld.

As can be seen in the figure, communist forced labor was particularly deadly. It not only accounts for most deaths under communism, but is close to the world total, which also includes colonial forced labor deaths (as in German, Portuguese, and Spanish colonies). Communists also committed genocide, to be sure, but only near half of the world total. Communists are much less disposed to massacre then were many other noncommunist governments (such as the Japanese military during World War II, or the Nationalist Chinese government from 1928 to 1949). As can be seen from the comparative total for terrorism, communists were much more discriminating in their killing overall, even to the extent in the Soviet Union, communist China, and Vietnam, at least, of using a quota system. Top officials would order local officials to kill a certain number of "enemies of the people," "rightists", or "tyrants".

How can we understand all this killing by communists? It is the marriage of an absolutist ideology with the absolute power. Communists believed that they knew the truth, absolutely. They believed that they knew through Marxism what would bring about the greatest human welfare and happiness. And they believed that power, the dictatorship of the proletariat, must be used to tear down the old feudal or capitalist order and rebuild society and culture to realize this utopia. Nothing must stand in the way of its achievement. Government--the Communist Party--was thus above any law. All institutions, cultural norms, traditions, and sentiments were expendable. And the people were as though lumber and bricks, to be used in building the new world.

The link for Figure 2...

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.FIG2.GIF


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 22, 2007, 02:11:28 PM
Should information like that I just posted above be taught/shown in public schools and colleges? I think everyone should be aware of the very ugly history that communism has.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 22, 2007, 02:18:10 PM
Communism has been the greatest social engineering experiment we have ever seen. It failed utterly and in doing so it killed over 100,000,000 men, women, and children, not to mention the near 30,000,000 of its subjects that died in its often aggressive wars and the rebellions it provoked. But there is a larger lesson to be learned from this horrendous sacrifice to one ideology. That is that no one can be trusted with power.

HOW MANY DID
COMMUNIST REGIMES MURDER?
By R.J. Rummel


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 22, 2007, 04:54:06 PM
What does this have to do with education in America? ::)


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 22, 2007, 05:35:29 PM
Should information like that I just posted above be taught/shown in public schools and colleges? I think everyone should be aware of the very ugly history that communism has.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 22, 2007, 06:15:59 PM
The subject would be addressed in a political science class I would think or a civics class, possibly touched on in a history class, as well as many other political systems that failed.  The question is will democracy as it has been practiced in the USA survive the Bush Administration?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: prairiepop on April 22, 2007, 06:31:28 PM
I remember learning about the Soviet [e.g. Russian] system of Communism in both high school world history classes and later in university poli sci, American history and world history courses...hard to imagine that something wouldn't still be taught along these lines today.  The great watershed of change, World War I, which saw the end of most of the tattered royals of Europe and re-drew so many boundaries and created so many nation-states, included the rise of Communism out of Russia and into its sad satellites.  I can't imagine even the wildest & shaggiest & hairiest radical thinking of Communism as anything but a world scourge.  Weird indeed to see so many of our rightwing radicals getting sucked into the belief that 'liberals want Communism'.  As if!  Under the old Soviet system, the first people jailed, tortured, shot, banished, exiled and destroyed were the liberals...who, even in the worst of times and sorriest of places, still believed in human rights, personal freedom, and even representative government.  Beneath the prim & starchy facade of today's neocons are some former radicals...all they changed was their label.  Totalitarianism, no matter what its name, is oppression...whether it's packing the Supremes or dialing for oil dollars, you can't change their inner belief that one philosophy, one leader, one view of the world [theirs and theirs only] is the way to go.  It may be their way, but it sure God isn't mine. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 22, 2007, 06:32:28 PM
ngc,
*Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.

Of course you realize that all the government of China has to do is call in their IOU's from the US that the Son-of-a-Bush has permitted to accumulate under the name of free trade.

If you doubt this, check your closet and your drawers - no, not THOSE drawers, there's nothing there - and see how much of what you have bought comes from China.

Once we are bankrupt, we can all learn Mandarin.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 22, 2007, 06:41:55 PM
I need to have some time to review that website. It is on an education site, so is probably the baby of a poli-sci professor.

Among the subjects that MAY include this information would be World Geography, World History, and Government, which typically includes a smidgeon of information on other forms of government before spending the rest of the course discussing our form of democracy.

I will want to make some comparisons to population numbers, and I wonder what the other variables on Figure 2 are in addition to those labeled. The site is from Hawaii, so will have a slightly different take on communism than the mainland may have.

Yes, I agree that totalitarianism takes away the rights and freedoms of the individual. And, yes, it was often the liberals and educated folks, along with the royals and their cronies, who were put to death. Where communism failed was in their attempt to take their way of government outside their own borders. The army the needed to do that sucked up all the national resources that should have eliminated hunger and other needs for their population. We may be able to sit back, and say, But Our Way Survived, but if we continue in our world-wide aggressions and imperialistic ways, will we be able to survive? Or is that the lesson to be learned from these statistics.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 22, 2007, 07:49:36 PM
 Where communism failed was in their attempt to take their way of government outside their own borders.

Not just that. Communism failed because of more than one reason--It destroys incentive. Also, who wants to be told how their life will be run, and what they will do for support from the govt to survive? If communism IS so fabulous, why are people trying by the boatload to get away from that Cuban paradise? Communism IS also cruel and unjust to everyone associated with it---especially those that have the temerity resist it. It also has, indeed, always tried to export its ideology, and it has failed miserably in that aspect.

As you will see, the numbers I quoted in relation to death that IS associated with its existence are quite correct. Communism IS an abusive abomination, and it will never work. Only 'modern' liberals think that it will.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 22, 2007, 08:50:42 PM
NGC,

Capitalism is no shining star. It, too, is abusive. Look how long it took for employers and capitalists to get it through their thick heads that paying their workers a living wage would result in more consumerism for their products. I am reading Death in the Haymarket by James Green. Labor began to unite before the Civil War, and sought, first an ten hour day, and then an eight hour day. Why? To improve the education and family life of American workers. Labor unions are the reason why the middle class re-emerged in the last century. And, the middle class is the defining class of Americans. It is not the politician, the entertainers, or the CEOs that define American and project American values, it is the middle class. And, it is the middle class that so much of "corporate America" has targetted for extinction.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 23, 2007, 07:05:44 AM
Just another Howley!

I've had time to check the site of R.J.Rommey, and found that he is somewhat of an avid anti-communist. His "statistics" on the deaths due to communism may be overstated to make his case. I am amused by his adventures into fiction-writing, and when I have time, may read one or two of his "books". They seems like they are in the tradition of Altas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, but they do involve time travel, which is a subject I enjoy, so it may be interesting to see how his heroes try to avert the need for communism to arise. I'm reading "Death in the Haymarket" by James Green, and it is pretty clear how socialism rose from the ranks of abused workers. Considering the conditions in the job market at the present, it would seem there are reasons to be concerned that the ideology could rise again to overthrow the domination of the wealthy capaitalists.
 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 23, 2007, 12:19:24 PM
I would like to return us to the discussion of educational testing.

Some interesting points were made by Digital DrZ just before the forum switched software.

He made the point that on any standardized test, it is only a good and fair test if about half the students who take it "pass" the test. If more than half pass the test, the test is too easy.

As we strive to get a greater percentage of students to "pass" some standardized tests, when will we discover that "too many" kids are passing the tests and up the stakes? What will happen? Custom dictates that the tests will become harder, and that we will never achieve the objective of having all children proficient as measured on tests.

Bush is making a big deal about gains in children's reading ability as measured on some tests. According to him, the past five years have shown a greater rise than the previous 28 years. But, the years tested for his boasts are 1999 through 2004. 2004 was the first year that the "new" methods were in effect and measurable. So what really caused the five year gain?



Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 23, 2007, 01:16:03 PM
Capitalism is no shining star. It, too, is abusive.

Capitalism IS not a type of government---what we have in this country IS a representative republic, or democracy.

Capitalism has NOT murdered millions like communism has. Ya just gotta try to mimimize your own foot in your mouth from seeing truth about my statement on the numbers of killings assoiated with communism (and your pathetic attempt to parse deaths and murders), and your absolute disbelief that what liberals are really after could be associated in way with communism. Well, I am happy to disappoint you with truth!!!

How does your size 9 taste?? Or are you actually gonna refute these numbers AGAIN???

Liberals---the truth to a liberal "IS" like a cross to dracula.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 23, 2007, 01:23:49 PM
ngc,

*Capitalism IS not a type of government---what we have in this country IS a representative republic, or democracy.

Silly child.  Neither is communism.  Communism is an economic system, not a government.
You flunk AP Economics with an F!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: liquidsilver on April 23, 2007, 01:42:58 PM
Capitalism has NOT murdered millions like communism has.

Of course it has.  J.P. Morgan purchased defective rifles from a U.S. arsenal for $3.50 apiece and sold them back to the Union Army for $22 each during the Civil War. IBM sold punch card machines to the Third Reich to help the Nazis  track down European Jewry.  The Dow Chemical Company manufactured and sold Agent Orange and napalm to the U.S. for use in Vietnam.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: liquidsilver on April 23, 2007, 01:57:28 PM
The United States is by far the largest arms exporter in the world, do you really think those weapons are all used for hunting?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 23, 2007, 02:12:11 PM
NGC,

It will take me some time to parse the statistic presented by R.J. Rummey. He certainly was out to make a point, and I suspect that he counted deaths under communism in some categories that he neglected to collect comparable statistics under for capitalism.

Read the following story: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/health/22infant.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th ... Would you say these infant deaths are due to capitalism? If there were in a communist country, would you attribute them to communism. In order to compare statistics, you have to compare like fruits. You and your buddy seem inclined to compare apples to oranges in order to make your points.

There have been many deaths directly attributable to capitalism. Not only are there a significant number of worker deaths due to black lung, asbestos, refrigerant, fertilizer/pesticides, but in addition there have been many deaths attributed to fires in workplaces for which the capitalist failed to provide adequate fire safety. Not only the fires in factories in the north in times past, but even as recent as a decade ago, there was a fire in a chicken processing plant in NC from which workers could not escape because the capitalists who ran the plant had locked the doors from the outside, trapping the workers in the fire and smoke. And, of course, there are the numbers of murders committed in the efforts to suppress the labor movement. I'm reading about the murders now in Chicago, often by local police and private police forces hired by the business owners. These are all deaths attributed to capitalism.

Oh, and by the way, my foot is a six not a nine. If I find substantiation of Rummey's statistics from a more creditable source, I'll let you know. You did do as I asked an found a source. That was good of you. Now, the game is to find a creditable source. I may have to get the man's book and see if I can parse out the actual deaths due to political reasons from the rest of the deaths he lumps in.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: liquidsilver on April 23, 2007, 02:13:59 PM
Actually I believe the life expectancy for Russians declined following the transition to capitalism


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 23, 2007, 02:27:12 PM
That great capitalist, Hnery Ford, won the Iron Cross from Hitler in 1943for selling 10,000 trucks to the Wehrmacht through Ford's Swiss subsidiary.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 23, 2007, 04:19:13 PM
Where communism failed was in their attempt to take their way of government outside their own borders.

Not just that. Communism failed because of more than one reason--It destroys incentive. Also, who wants to be told how their life will be run, and what they will do for support from the govt to survive? If communism IS so fabulous, why are people trying by the boatload to get away from that Cuban paradise? Communism IS also cruel and unjust to everyone associated with it---especially those that have the temerity resist it. It also has, indeed, always tried to export its ideology, and it has failed miserably in that aspect.

As you will see, the numbers I quoted in relation to death that IS associated with its existence are quite correct. Communism IS an abusive abomination, and it will never work. Only 'modern' liberals think that it will.

I don't understand your hangup with communism.  No one here is promoting it as a successful system of government.  It was tried, it failed.   Now, will the American experiment with democracy succeed or fail?  That is the question after these last six years of republican incompetence and the Bush neocon fascists.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 23, 2007, 04:32:37 PM
There will never be a credible source for liberals on anything that lends to the demonstration of the hypocrisy, cruelties, and failures of communism. The right people will never be in charge. Your belittling the deaths of so many at the hands of such butchers IS absolutely pathetic.

And capitalism has not murdered a single soul...there are no gulags---no KGBs...no GRUs---regardless of your liberal rants and parsing of truths, or liberal descriptions of how it IS unfair to those that cannot make millions, or how capitalism exploits mexicans, blacks, or any other minority. The point IS being free to succeed or fail.  Liberals are doomed to believing the naivetes of their pitiful approaches to assigning blame for whatever ills befall the world, and the rationales for remedies for those ills. And the remedy just ISn't communism/socialism/liberalism/progressive...as the old soviet union IS a testament to the failure of communism and cruelties to humans for their beliefs. If communism IS so fabulous, why don't you go to Miami and ask cubans about life under castro? Why would you imagine so many flee that 'paradise'?

It matters not---liberals wear blinders so truth doesn't interrupt thier la-la land world they live in.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 23, 2007, 05:21:15 PM
NGC,

I find it amusing (or, perhaps more literally, disgusting) that you do not think that capitalism and its excesses have "murdered" anyone. Who, pray tell, do you think was responsible for the deaths of those in the NC poultry plant? The workers themselves? Or the capitalists that locked them into the plant? Do you realize that the statistics for deaths due to communism include deaths of workers who were worked "too hard" and people shipped to Siberia where they died not directly at the hands of anyone? I guess it was too much trouble for you to actually READ the evidence you post to "educate" others!

If the socialists, anarchist and communists of the late 19th century had not broken the power of the capitalist to allow labor to actually be free men, you could not be enjoying the luxuries you now take for granted, NGC. You owe your good fortune to those who sacrificed so much to make American a truly FREE nation.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: operaman on April 23, 2007, 05:35:23 PM
One of the most noticable results of the internet has been the industry of right wing ranting and pre-emption of fora and blogs to force their twisted dogmatic fascism upon anyone who may access the forum.

oh for the days of 300, 1200 baud modems, when only essential on-line conversations took place, usually in an educational forum, usenet group or newsgroup.

Here it comes again, "free, unbiased, factual" demonstrations of the horrors of communism ( which capo has already replied as being ecomomic, as is capitalism), and linking these horrible monstors to "liberals"!!!!

And we already know that the master of all evil, Adolph Hitler was a liberal because his organization was "Socialist."

I believe the right-wing nuts fight so hard to link the Soviet and their fellow communists and the NAZI's with liberalism because , in reality, both abominations spent their powers of government in totally fascist, controlling paroxisms, just as the presnt coup bunch in the White House with their usurp=resident are doing now.

It's a pity that we have come to this. Would anyone equate the wise and wonderful socialist Senator of Vermont with the madmen of Soviet Russia, or the Nazi's?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 23, 2007, 06:15:43 PM
Quote
It's a pity that we have come to this. Would anyone equate the wise and wonderful socialist Senator of Vermont with the madmen of Soviet Russia, or the Nazi's?

No.  Nor would we equate Mr. Sanders with the rightwing thugs now occupying the white house.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 23, 2007, 08:20:41 PM
Murder by Capitalists

For those who want a good read and a good example of how capitalism has murdered the innocent, I suggest "Death in the Haymarket" by James Green. Following the death of six policement who tried to break up a peaceful gathering of laborers (said to be peaceful by the mayor of Chicago who was there), seven men were murdered on the gallows even though there was absolutely no evidence linking them to the deaths, in fact, some were not even in the city at the time of the deaths. Yet, they were tried and convicted of "murder" on the basis that they had encouraged workers to stand up like "men" against their capitalists employers. And, they encouraged the workers to exercise their 2nd amendment rights to protect themselves from the corrupt police department and the hired thugs of their employers.

What think you? Will NGC read that book and realize that capitalists have "murdered" those who didn't agree with their ideas? It is a fairly new book, but should be on the book lists for classes on American History. It is an eye opener for me, who has known little about the labor movement.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 24, 2007, 07:36:21 AM
Anarchist communism advocates the abolition of the State and capitalism in favor of a horizontal network of voluntary associations, workers' councils and/or commons.

For those that say communism IS just an economic system. Usually the 'anarchist' IS left off when referring to communism. So when people refer to communism, yes it IS an economic system, but they are simply leaving off the Anarchist.

The poultry plant deaths in NC? Anyone that assumes that the doors were left locked so that people would be killed if an emergency came up IS just plain old nuts. Or should I say liberal with words like those for an arguement? Just plain demented. Can you say it was a completely unfortunate oversight that ended in a tragedy? I didn't think so. Since you liberals argue the way you do in favor of communism, why don't you go to cuba to live where you'll be truly happy? Why deprive yourself of the lifestyle you so rabidly defend?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 24, 2007, 07:43:05 AM
I guess it was too much trouble for you to actually READ the evidence you post to "educate" others!

You may continue to leave your head stuck in the sand about communism. You may continue to disbelieve that communism IS not absolutely evil. You may continue to believe that capitalism has 'murdered' people. (How you get to this IS irrational) Parsing and refusing to remove your blinders IS pathetic. Trying to get a liberal to understand truth IS like trying to get a liberal NOT to get hysterical when confronted with it.
READ evidence first, you say? You should READ and educate yourself about what communism has done to vastly, vastly greater numbers of humans than capitalism could ever be parsed into guilt for. Ya really wanna know what communism IS? Just another word for human misery. Capitalism never had a KGB or a GRU or gulags, ms. liberal.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 24, 2007, 08:17:32 AM
By MARILYN BERGER
Published: April 24, 2007---New York Times
Boris N. Yeltsin, the burly provincial politician who became a Soviet-era reformer and later a towering figure of his time as the first freely elected leader of Russia, presiding over the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the demise of the Communist Party, died yesterday in Moscow. He was 76.

Here ya are liberals. Ya gonna claim that the NYT IS a buncha RW nutjobs?

LOKK v-e-r-y  c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y at this excerpt------"first freely elected leader of Russia, presiding over the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the demise of the Communist Party"...c-o-m-m-u-n-i-s-t  p-a-r-t-y. Not a form of government, huh?? Only in the mind of a liberal.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 24, 2007, 09:00:44 AM
NGC,

You have a totally deranged mind. You do not think past your nose. It is against the law to lock fire exit doors. In an effort to exert undue control over its employees, the managers of the poultry plant BROKE THE LAW and created an unsage condition in which the employees died. Yes it was death by capitalism, as surely as Rummels statistics that counted those banished to Siberia to hard labor, as death by hard labor.

And, you totally ignore the many deaths among strikers that occurred from before the civil war up until the mid 20th century. Over a century of deaths by capitalism.

Anarchist are usually liberals but they are not socialists and they are not communists. Anarchism and communism are mutually exclusive.

The name of a political party is not indicative of the form of government. Communism can and does exist in a democracy or a republic.

The fact that the electoral college is currently the law of the land does not mean that it cannot be legally overturned. It is an affront to democracy.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 24, 2007, 12:45:59 PM
It is against the law to lock fire exit doors.

Yes, it IS. But that does NOT mean, as you seem to suggest, that it was done purposely to MURDER people working in a 'gasp' capitalist factory!! These types of unfortunate deaths are in no way, shape, fashion, or form related to deaths from those in communist countries due to conditions in forced or pressed labor gulags--but you already should know this. Your liberalism makes you parse and belittle the deaths of so many at the hands of such communist evil. And even attempting to compare them with anything associated with capitalism IS just absurd and insane.

Yes, the elctoral college can be overturned. Until it IS, it IS the law of the land and it IS what IS being used. Cry all you want. Darned smart the guys that implemented this system.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: liquidsilver on April 24, 2007, 12:57:01 PM
Quote
These types of unfortunate deaths are in no way, shape, fashion, or form related to deaths from those in communist countries due to conditions in forced or pressed labor gulags--but you already should know this.

What about slavery or the use of child labor during the industrial revolution? Or the sweatshops that exist today?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 24, 2007, 01:01:07 PM
NGC,

It is shamefully indecent of you to claim that death to workers is due to communist bosses on one hand, but merely "unfortunate" when committed by capitalists. Your inability to grasp reality is amazing. Your blinders are so thick, they must severly weight down your empty head. Communism is no more EVIL than capitalism. Both tend to abuse the working class. The best solution is for business to be either worker-owned, or consumer-owned, and get the capitalists totally out of the picture. I do so prefer getting my electricity from a consumer-owned co-op than those unfortunates who are forced to buy it from the capitalist company. I get MUCH faster service when storms take out power than those who use the corporate power companies. And, it takes more of a storm to take out our service than those owned by the capitalists.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 24, 2007, 01:40:55 PM
Were the Shakers communists?  Is Christianity in its puriest form communistic?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: liquidsilver on April 24, 2007, 02:25:27 PM
Quote
The best solution is for business to be either worker-owned, or consumer-owned, and get the capitalists totally out of the picture.

I'm not so sure what is wrong with capitalism as long as there are checks and balances and competition is encouraged.  I think encouraging competition is the best means to get the best quality service for best price.  I think it is companies that have a monopoly within a given region or market that result in greater inefficiences as well as gouging of the consumer. 

While it is certainly nice that you feel that you get better service from consumer-owned coops than corporate power companies,  I don't think that such a model should be applied across the board.  If numerous power companies and coops for that matter were allowed to compete directly for your services, you should see both better pricing and better service.

Also it sounds like you would be killing off the small business owners which make up a large percentage of our economy -- are you suggesting that their businesses be dissolved?   


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 24, 2007, 04:29:19 PM
There is nothing wrong with capitalism.  There is a problem, though, IMHO, with GREED.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 24, 2007, 04:48:37 PM
Communism is no more EVIL than capitalism.


rrriiiggghhhttt....what a comment. You are suffering from a major disconnect with reality. A MAJOR disconnect.

And people have problems with greed? OK----BUT---It appears to be more like 'I am going to have legislation made to separate you from your financial successes'. Sounds like jealousy to me! Greed, huh? Travolta with 5 personal jets? (This hollywood list could go on and on ad nauseum) You still have failed, apparently, to read the book "Do as I say, not as I do". Teddy Kennedy has his wealth protected in off-shore banks---or didn't you liberals know this? IS he included in your 'greed' wrath? No mention of daddy Kennedy and bootleg fortunes? Hmmm?

Will liberals come down on types like Soros? Oprah? Gore and his 'global crossing oil buddy' wealth? Terry McAuliffe? etc, etc, etc....or will it just be a condemnation of non-liberals that are wealthy? Will someone call for jail for Diane Feinstein directing no-bid military contracts to her husband?

I wanna hear a beliveable answer here---I'll bet that I don't.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 24, 2007, 04:57:07 PM
ls,
I'm not so sure what is wrong with capitalism as long as there are checks and balances and competition is encouraged.  I think encouraging competition is the best means to get the best quality service for best price.  I think it is companies that have a monopoly within a given region or market that result in greater inefficiences as well as gouging of the consumer. 


Would that you were correct.  However, the goal of capitalism is not competition; the goal of capitalism is, was, and always has been MONOPOLY in order to maximize profit.  As Commodore Vanderbilt put it so well, 'The public be damned!"


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 24, 2007, 05:51:31 PM
Communism is no more EVIL than capitalism.


rrriiiggghhhttt....what a comment. You are suffering from a major disconnect with reality. A MAJOR disconnect.

And people have problems with greed? OK----BUT---It appears to be more like 'I am going to have legislation made to separate you from your financial successes'. Sounds like jealousy to me! Greed, huh? Travolta with 5 personal jets? (This hollywood list could go on and on ad nauseum) You still have failed, apparently, to read the book "Do as I say, not as I do". Teddy Kennedy has his wealth protected in off-shore banks---or didn't you liberals know this? IS he included in your 'greed' wrath? No mention of daddy Kennedy and bootleg fortunes? Hmmm?

Will liberals come down on types like Soros? Oprah? Gore and his 'global crossing oil buddy' wealth? Terry McAuliffe? etc, etc, etc....or will it just be a condemnation of non-liberals that are wealthy? Will someone call for jail for Diane Feinstein directing no-bid military contracts to her husband?

I wanna hear a beliveable answer here---I'll bet that I don't.

I see you failed to mention folks like Dick Cheney who made his money from his having government connections, or George Bush who inherited a lot of his from a grandfather who was a banker for Adloph Hitler, but that's ok, cause they are neocons like you and neocons are always on the RIGHT.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 24, 2007, 07:01:55 PM
NGC,

No, I do not exclude from the Capitalists, those who are liberal, especially those in the Entertainment Business. While I enjoy movies on tv, I do not pay to go see movies, and rarely buy DVD's. Certain actor/esses I refuse to watch at all including Charlton Heston. I do not watch the Entertainment news at all, and turn off the channel when the only news is about hollywood and the rich and famous. While some entertainers are highly skilled, I tend to think they are grievously overpaid and undertaxed. I like it when the lavish paychecks were rounded down by the 90% tax scale. And I am strongly opposed to lifting of the Inheritance Tax.

As to the consumer coops, I remember in decades past when consumer coops were widespread. They were a good check on the price-gouging of the retailers. The consumer coops have fallen out of favor in recent decades, which I think is unfortunatel.

I am not opposed to profit, but am greatly opposed to excessive profits. Philanthropy is supposed to ease the conscience of the super-rich, but it is usually too little and with too many strings attached. I am reminded of some simple facts I've picked up in my life. Jerry Falwell cheated his siblings out of the family home, which became his headquarters until he built his "college". Christian Children's Fund pays outrageous salaries and supports a fancy expensive building in Richmond off the money people donate to help the poor starving children. In truth, the starving children never see a penny of the donations, and are sat down and REQUIRED to write those DICTATED promised letters to those whose donations support the buildings and salaries in Richmond. Pat Robertson has such a hold on the politics of Virginia Beach that unless you are an active church member, you cannot get a teaching job in that city.

And, all the while, the death rate for infants in going up in the poor states in the deep south, where politicians to the party line to reduce taxes and reduce benefits to the poor.




 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 24, 2007, 07:33:11 PM
NGC,

No, I do not exclude from the Capitalists, those who are liberal, especially those in the Entertainment Business. While I enjoy movies on tv, I do not pay to go see movies, and rarely buy DVD's. Certain actor/esses I refuse to watch at all including Charlton Heston. I do not watch the Entertainment news at all, and turn off the channel when the only news is about hollywood and the rich and famous. While some entertainers are highly skilled, I tend to think they are grievously overpaid and undertaxed. I like it when the lavish paychecks were rounded down by the 90% tax scale. And I am strongly opposed to lifting of the Inheritance Tax.

As to the consumer coops, I remember in decades past when consumer coops were widespread. They were a good check on the price-gouging of the retailers. The consumer coops have fallen out of favor in recent decades, which I think is unfortunatel.

I am not opposed to profit, but am greatly opposed to excessive profits. Philanthropy is supposed to ease the conscience of the super-rich, but it is usually too little and with too many strings attached. I am reminded of some simple facts I've picked up in my life. Jerry Falwell cheated his siblings out of the family home, which became his headquarters until he built his "college". Christian Children's Fund pays outrageous salaries and supports a fancy expensive building in Richmond off the money people donate to help the poor starving children. In truth, the starving children never see a penny of the donations, and are sat down and REQUIRED to write those DICTATED promised letters to those whose donations support the buildings and salaries in Richmond. Pat Robertson has such a hold on the politics of Virginia Beach that unless you are an active church member, you cannot get a teaching job in that city.

And, all the while, the death rate for infants in going up in the poor states in the deep south, where politicians to the party line to reduce taxes and reduce benefits to the poor.




 

Likewise, CEOs of many corporations loved by the neocons make astronomical salaries.  Some, over a billion a year.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 24, 2007, 10:45:55 PM
Not only do the CEO make indecently large salaries, but they also want to build their "dynasties" with their wealth and insure that their children for many generations will never have to work for a living. Then, they break the law, using their wealth to insure they will never be punished for it.

I recently read "The People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn. It is a very readable book and will open you eyes to the "other side" of history that wasn't taught when you were in school!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 25, 2007, 07:05:12 AM
Not only do the CEO make indecently large salaries, but they also want to build their "dynasties" with their wealth and insure that their children for many generations will never have to work for a living. Then, they break the law, using their wealth to insure they will never be punished for it.

I recently read "The People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn. It is a very readable book and will open you eyes to the "other side" of history that wasn't taught when you were in school!


Sounds like an interesting read.  Thanks.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 25, 2007, 08:19:40 AM
Sami,

I suspect you will thoroughly enjoy the People's History. I understand it is required reading in some IB high school programs along with the standard texts. A very good use for the book, since the kids in IB tend to be some of the best and brightest of our children. But the book is readable enough to be used with some of the "lesser lights" in our schools, and should be included in all levels of study.

I am watching the results of the poll on this forum, and see that the naysayers on education are still lagging behind those who see the improvements in education. I wonder what their objections are? Are they close enough to what is going on in schools to have an informed opinion, or are they of the "I walked ten miles to school each day in high drifts of snow" school of thought? I am following a discussion on Reading First results on EDDRA. Seems this cash cow of the Bush family is being pushed as doing more than it really does. Statistics are being misused to promote another ho-hum reading program.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: liquidsilver on April 25, 2007, 09:04:01 AM
ls,
I'm not so sure what is wrong with capitalism as long as there are checks and balances and competition is encouraged.  I think encouraging competition is the best means to get the best quality service for best price.  I think it is companies that have a monopoly within a given region or market that result in greater inefficiences as well as gouging of the consumer. 


Would that you were correct.  However, the goal of capitalism is not competition; the goal of capitalism is, was, and always has been MONOPOLY in order to maximize profit.  As Commodore Vanderbilt put it so well, 'The public be damned!"

And communism doesn't establish a monopoly on goods and services? 

In capitalism, the goal of each competitor certainly is to improve and dominate market share.  It is the role of government to prohibit anti-competitive behavior and unfair business practices


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 25, 2007, 10:38:42 AM
ls,
I'm not so sure what is wrong with capitalism as long as there are checks and balances and competition is encouraged.  I think encouraging competition is the best means to get the best quality service for best price.  I think it is companies that have a monopoly within a given region or market that result in greater inefficiences as well as gouging of the consumer. 


Would that you were correct.  However, the goal of capitalism is not competition; the goal of capitalism is, was, and always has been MONOPOLY in order to maximize profit.  As Commodore Vanderbilt put it so well, 'The public be damned!"

And communism doesn't establish a monopoly on goods and services? 

In capitalism, the goal of each competitor certainly is to improve and dominate market share.  It is the role of government to prohibit anti-competitive behavior and unfair business practices

This government is in bed with the corporations and it is the corporations who are running the country.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 25, 2007, 11:08:06 AM
This has been the case ever since corporations were declared to be legal "persons" instead of collections of people. It has worked against both the consumer and the workers of these corporations.

I see that the latest news on the pet food recall is that there is now concern that the tainted wheat gluten could have also gotten into the human food supply. I guess we all need to read labels carefully and discard any foods with wheat glutin in them. I wonder if other grain products are also suspect. We need to look very carefully, especially at baby foods, since babies and small children, like animals, would not have the body mass to deflect the harm in foods.

The best solution seems to be to raise your own food so you know if and how any fertilizer is applied. There is a new baby in the family, and we've put in a garden. It should be producing in time for us to help the new mothers out with free "organic" foods for Baby Lily to cut her teeth on. Today, I will be planting broccoli and cabbage - nice foods to put in a blender and feed to a hungry young'un.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 25, 2007, 11:12:06 AM
This has been the case ever since corporations were declared to be legal "persons" instead of collections of people. It has worked against both the consumer and the workers of these corporations.

I see that the latest news on the pet food recall is that there is now concern that the tainted wheat gluten could have also gotten into the human food supply. I guess we all need to read labels carefully and discard any foods with wheat glutin in them. I wonder if other grain products are also suspect. We need to look very carefully, especially at baby foods, since babies and small children, like animals, would not have the body mass to deflect the harm in foods.

The best solution seems to be to raise your own food so you know if and how any fertilizer is applied. There is a new baby in the family, and we've put in a garden. It should be producing in time for us to help the new mothers out with free "organic" foods for Baby Lily to cut her teeth on. Today, I will be planting broccoli and cabbage - nice foods to put in a blender and feed to a hungry young'un.

You are very right.  And happy planting.  I heard that rice glutten is also suspect.  I thought about that as I shopped for food this morning.  I proudly presented my own canvas bags for bagging my purchase!!!  One small step.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 25, 2007, 12:05:27 PM
Governor Deval Patrick wants to end state-sponsored , abstinence-only sex education in Massachusetts, a year after Governor Mitt Romney ordered the Department of Public Health to redirect a long-standing federal abstinence grant to classes that focus exclusively on encouraging teenagers to avoid sexual encounters.
Article Tools

Patrick proposed forgoing the $700,000 grant, which the state has received since 1998, joining at least six other states in rebelling against increasingly restrictive federal mandates about how the money can be used.

The Patrick administration points to the federal government's study of abstinence-education programs, released this month, which found that students in programs focusing solely on abstinence are just as likely to have sex as those not in such programs. At the same time, health officials say, the programs' emphasis on the failure rate of condoms and other birth control, without providing instruction about their benefits, may confuse young people and discourage them from using protection.

"We don't believe that the science of public health is pointing in the direction of very specific and narrowly defined behavioral approaches like the one that is mandated by this funding," said John Auerbach, the state commissioner of public health.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: liquidsilver on April 25, 2007, 12:29:27 PM
I would love to see if there is any corelation between abstinence-only programs and the abortion rate.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 25, 2007, 12:40:45 PM
I would love to see if there is any corelation between abstinence-only programs and the abortion rate.

That would be an interesting statistic.  However, the government reports that abstinence-only doesn't seem to prevent sexual activity among young people.  If those who have not been taught about protection and prevention are having sex then it would follow that there could be more unwanted pregnancies, and thus more abortions.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: liquidsilver on April 25, 2007, 12:42:53 PM
That's my point.  I would love to see if there are more unwanted pregnancies when the education is limited to abstinence-only


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 25, 2007, 12:54:48 PM
Opinions: Teaching like an ostrich
Sexual education programs need to get with the times
 published on Tuesday, April 24, 2007
advertisement

A new report has come out that will hopefully prove to lawmakers what anyone who has been to an abstinence-only high school already knew: abstinence-oriented sexual education classes don't work.

As reported in today's article on the report, the study showed that a control group comprised of students who didn't take an abstinence-oriented sexual education program didn't have significantly different views on sex than their peers who did take the courses.

More importantly, not only are their views virtually identical, their actions were as well. The students studied didn't display a meaningful difference in their level of sexual activity.

So what has about $176 million of annual federal funding - up from $87.5 million during the Clinton years - resulted in for America's youth?

Well, students who take the abstinence education classes are more likely to sign a "formal vow" that they will remain abstinent until marriage - they're just not any more likely to keep it.

Also, previous studies have shown that as many as 80 percent of abstinence-oriented programs contain false or misleading information on the effectiveness of contraception.

Meanwhile, the United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate as any of our peers in terms of economic power.

Are we so far behind because other countries' teenagers have better programs teaching them to abstain from sexual intercourse until they're married?

Hardly.

Teenagers in other countries, like England, Sweden and Canada, are just as sexually active. A major difference - those countries also have more information on birth control readily available. In some cases, they even make birth control readily available to the teenage population.

By the way, for those concerned about the morality of our youth, American adolescents also report having more sexual partners than their European counterparts.

Ironically, while conservatives in America advocate for abstinence-only education, statistics - including teen abortion rates - continue to prove those same programs aren't doing much good.

If parents and communities are really worried about the moral fiber of their young ones, they have plenty of time to instill their sexual values at home and at church. They'll leave the teachers to teach the facts.

http://www.statepress.com/issues/2007/04/24/opinions/700994

I google "abstinence-only and abortion".  I didn't find what I was looking for, but I thought this was ineteresting.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 25, 2007, 01:25:46 PM
ls,
It is the role of government to prohibit anti-competitive behavior and unfair business practices

That breeze you feel is Adam Smith's whirling in his grave.

So much for the invisible hand, you statist, you.

Do you get that the Reichwingers among us would even eliminate the very government protections you favor?
They would say that it's just a short step from there to taxing unearned income at the same rate as labor, and that form there it's just a short step to "confiscatory" taxation.

Truly scary folks, they!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 25, 2007, 02:29:44 PM
Will education become an issue in the upcoming elections? I certainly hope so. The following articles seem to suggest it will:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/education/25schools.html?ex=1178164800&en=64c526e2221ce366&ei=5070

At least with the money from these two billionaires, the issue will, if not take the front seat, at least not be relegated to last place.

I am very opposed to a national curriculum. I think that education requires diversity - which means that kids in Virginia should learn about things Virginians feel are important, and kids in California should learn about things Californians feel are important. When the products of Virginia schools and California schools come together in the same project or effort, they will bring different skills to the table, not both the same old, same old.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 25, 2007, 03:29:17 PM
Will education become an issue in the upcoming elections? I certainly hope so. The following articles seem to suggest it will:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/education/25schools.html?ex=1178164800&en=64c526e2221ce366&ei=5070

At least with the money from these two billionaires, the issue will, if not take the front seat, at least not be relegated to last place.

I am very opposed to a national curriculum. I think that education requires diversity - which means that kids in Virginia should learn about things Virginians feel are important, and kids in California should learn about things Californians feel are important. When the products of Virginia schools and California schools come together in the same project or effort, they will bring different skills to the table, not both the same old, same old.

I think NCLB will be an issue in the campaign, for the fact it has been a collassal failure.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 25, 2007, 05:04:50 PM
Sami,

You are right. The only good I see from NCLB is that more integrated or primarily black schools seem to be striving more to increase test scores. Does that mean that the children are getting a "better" education. We have no earthly idea. We only know that children are learning more of whatever is on the test and are developing their test-taking skills. Whether that constitute a "better" education is anyone's guess. I really see little value in improving test-taking skills. It is neither a higher education skill nor a workplace skill.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 25, 2007, 05:07:09 PM
Sami,

You are right. The only good I see from NCLB is that more integrated or primarily black schools seem to be striving more to increase test scores. Does that mean that the children are getting a "better" education. We have no earthly idea. We only know that children are learning more of whatever is on the test and are developing their test-taking skills. Whether that constitute a "better" education is anyone's guess. I really see little value in improving test-taking skills. It is neither a higher education skill nor a workplace skill.

Agreed.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 25, 2007, 08:09:58 PM
NY Temps,

While these are the measures in present-day society, they have not always been such. When I tarted school back in 1950, parents were told NOT to try to teach their children anything academic. I probably learned my colors, since they were part of conversation, and maybe some numbers and some letters, but parents were supposed to, back then, leave everything up to the PROFESSIONALS. Although I do not have grandchildren, I have lots of grandnieces and grandnephews, and as a retired teacher, I often end up discussing with the young parents what to do to prepare the little ones for school. I usually tell them that if the child shows an interest in letters and words, they can go ahead and help them learn to read - using whatever method suits them and the child!

Although I talk the talk, I'm not sure that I really walk the walk. I believe that testing is what a teacher does near the end of a learning unit to insure that those who haven't learned will be able to before they move to the next unit. Grades should be known to the student, shared with the parent, and recorded for study by the admininstration. I fail to see any value added by having the students take endless standardized tests. One such test before high school is fine, to help determine what course level the student may be most successful with. I am wobbly on the value of an high school exit exam unless it is basic enough for most to pass. A test for college admission seems of limited value - much more can be learned by looking at the student's achievements in high school. In fact, colleges are beginning to admit that the pre-college tests are not very good at determining who will graduate from college.

As for the licensing tests, they do not require a heavy dose of test-taking skills. They do require knowledge of the skill or body of knowledge needed for the profession or trade, as they should. They are a foolish reason to test every student on a standardized test every year, such as NCLB requires. The judgement of a teacher whether a student has learned or not learned the body of knowledge has always been sufficient. Why change now?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 26, 2007, 09:38:50 AM
 I fail to see any value added by having the students take endless standardized tests.

This IS actually of great value. It shows which students are or are not absorbing what IS being taught during the course, and whether additional assistance would be needed for advancement. It IS a fine measuring stick for progress.


I am wobbly on the value of an high school exit exam unless it is basic enough for most to pass. 

Basic enough for most to pass? rrriiiggghhhttt...This IS evidence of the desire for the 'dumbing down' of America--plain and simple.

A test for college admission seems of limited value.

This IS quite necessary, as the students with the better scores deserve first shot at entrance to the college or university. You are NOT really going to say that someone who scores a 70 should be getting preference over someone that scores a 95 are you? Or IS it just a 'feel good' thing? That IS what it sounds like since you choose, apparently, to promote the thought of downplaying the better students abilities. So much for being all that you can be and being rewarded for superior performance and hard work. (A definite liberal approach to education)


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 26, 2007, 09:54:08 AM
I fail to see any value added by having the students take endless standardized tests.

This IS actually of great value. It shows which students are or are not absorbing what IS being taught during the course, and whether additional assistance would be needed for advancement. It IS a fine measuring stick for progress.

Have you examined the tests that NCLB requires your child to take?  I have not, because I have no children in a school system any longer.  But I have heard and read that what happens is that the teachers teach their students to pass a test (since their performance ratings are based on the successful numbers of passing students), rather than teaching in creative, imaginative ways for kids to learn about the world they live in.  Perhaps, my information is not corrrect.  If so, please provide me with evidence to the contrary.



I am wobbly on the value of an high school exit exam unless it is basic enough for most to pass. 

Basic enough for most to pass? rrriiiggghhhttt...This IS evidence of the desire for the 'dumbing down' of America--plain and simple.

How about home schooling?  Now there's a dumbing down of America.  Christian dogma and the far right need to control the world in anticipation of the Rapture is what that is all about. 

A test for college admission seems of limited value.

This IS quite necessary, as the students with the better scores deserve first shot at entrance to the college or university. You are NOT really going to say that someone who scores a 70 should be getting preference over someone that scores a 95 are you? Or IS it just a 'feel good' thing? That IS what it sounds like since you choose, apparently, to promote the thought of downplaying the better students abilities. So much for being all that you can be and being rewarded for superior performance and hard work. (A definite liberal approach to education)

I believe the SATs were designed to do this, although they favor white America in their construction.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 26, 2007, 10:02:49 AM
I believe the SATs were designed to do this, although they favor white America in their construction.

So the tests are not OK for Native Americans, Orientals, European, African, and Arabic peoples? Just what would you change about these tests, since schooling IS performed w/o regard to race, color, creed, or national origin? Translation? All these races are sitting in on the same classes that are taught. How does a test get made ethnically biased?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 26, 2007, 01:30:12 PM
I believe the SATs were designed to do this, although they favor white America in their construction.

So the tests are not OK for Native Americans, Orientals, European, African, and Arabic peoples? Just what would you change about these tests, since schooling IS performed w/o regard to race, color, creed, or national origin? Translation? All these races are sitting in on the same classes that are taught. How does a test get made ethnically biased?

I didn't make this up.  These tests are geared toward the language and life experience of white America. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 26, 2007, 01:32:47 PM
One aspect of testing not yet touched upon is judging teachers by the performance of their students.  Is this fair, given the number of factors that can influence learning?

A teacher cannot answer for whether or not a student studies hard enough at home. That "IS" a key to passing a course.

I am all for VIABLE teacher certification, as too many teachers hide behind the "T" word---tenure. And I do not mean a certification test that asks "What is 2 + 2?" If you catch my drift. Key word "IS" VIABLE.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 26, 2007, 01:39:52 PM
I didn't make this up.  These tests are geared toward the language and life experience of white America.

I have heard this claim before, and have not suggested that you made it up. I just flat out disagree that a test can be made so as to 'favor' the white race.

GEARED toward the language of the white america?

That "IS" absurd. You aren't suggesting that a test be made for blacks in ebonics, are you? Do you know blacks born in this country that DON'T speak english?

Life experiences of white america?

You mean blacks were NOT fighting in the revolutionary war?

Maybe I am just misunderstanding what your point "IS" here. It definitely escapes me.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 26, 2007, 02:14:54 PM
I didn't make this up.  These tests are geared toward the language and life experience of white America.

I have heard this claim before, and have not suggested that you made it up. I just flat out disagree that a test can be made so as to 'favor' the white race.

GEARED toward the language of the white america?

That "IS" absurd. You aren't suggesting that a test be made for blacks in ebonics, are you? Do you know blacks born in this country that DON'T speak english?

Life experiences of white america?

You mean blacks were NOT fighting in the revolutionary war?

Maybe I am just misunderstanding what your point "IS" here. It definitely escapes me.

Perhaps you need to take a break and think about it.  Walk around in the shoes of some inner city black kid someday, and see the world through his eyes, not your conservative rightwing eyes of a whitie.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 26, 2007, 03:04:54 PM
not your conservative rightwing eyes of a whitie...

You continue to wish to insult me. I have eschewed this and my posts show it.

Why? I am one step away from blocking you, as I have made quite a visible effort to be civil with you!

rightwing eyes of a whitie (Why this?)----slander instead of evidence. OR responding to what I have posted---only innuendoes and nothing tangible.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 26, 2007, 05:30:04 PM
not your conservative rightwing eyes of a whitie...

You continue to wish to insult me. I have eschewed this and my posts show it.

Why? I am one step away from blocking you, as I have made quite a visible effort to be civil with you!

rightwing eyes of a whitie (Why this?)----slander instead of evidence. OR responding to what I have posted---only innuendoes and nothing tangible.

Are all conservatives as sensitive as you?  All I was asking you to do was walking in the shoes of an inner city black kid and see the world through his eyes.  How is that insulting you?  And if I did, I most humbly apologizing.  It was not my point to insult you.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 26, 2007, 05:38:46 PM
NYTemps,

Yes, I know what you are talking about in your education. That has been corrected in Virginia by the SOLs. I heard about the "States Rights" issues for the first time in a college course, since I had gone to school in a northern state and learned the standard history on the Civil War. For me, history stopped at the beginning of the 20th century. Somehow my teachers never got around to the 20th century.

I was talking to an attorney a bit more than a year ago, and we got on the subject of Virginia history. Her husband is a member of Virginia's Legislature, so I was more than a bit agape to learn that she believe that the original slave owners were still "owed" by the feds for freeing their slaves. I've always been of the opinion that the slaves should have been compensated. In some cases they were, but it is more the exception than the rule.

So, I agree there is merit in your argument. But, as a teacher myself, I would rather see a rich variety of subjects taught at a given grade level, rather than have all American children step to the tune of the same drummer. Subjects in science, as well as history, will be set on a national level without deviation. Can you imagine the fuss in trying to get evolution taught across the country? Or stem cell research? Considering the dumbing down that the current administration is doing with scientific research, can you imagine what would happen to a "National Curriculum". Even with its flaws, I feel that many fingers in the pie is better than playing one tune over and over.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 26, 2007, 05:56:19 PM
NGC,

How is it not insulting to label every person on this forum as a "liberal" and a "communist", even those who just start to post, but you fein insult to being called a "right wing whitie". Are you not white? Is that the problem? Or do you for some reason believe that your POV is not an extreme right wing POV?

In any event, even the makers of the SAT test agree that the test is more geared to white males than any other group. Back when I took the tests, I was told my scores were exceptionally high "for a girl". Many of the test questions assumed knowledge of sports and other male activities which were unknown to me as the oldest in a family of all girls. There are means to judge if a test is geared towards one ethnic group or another, and those who do the research are pretty firmly agreed that the SAT tests are geared toward whites. I don't know if they are still as heavily geared towards males as they were back in the early sixties.

You opinion on this is totally immaterial. You could look it up online, but, from the quality of your posts on here, I am not sure you could understand what you read. It will be easier for you to simply take the word of those who CAN read the research. Be like Bush - rely on the summary of a summary.

My sympathy for students is geared towards the students I spent most of my teaching years in front of - learning disabled students for many years, then mixed LD and mildly retarded students. Most of the LD students were intelligent, but they were with me typically because they were poor readers and lousy test takers. My classes were usually about 50-50 black/white with some Indian and other ethnicities thrown in for seasoning. I was quite successful with these students, and as I run into them and find out who is doing what 10-20 years later, I am well pleased with my career. Only one of my students (as far as I know) ever took the SAT. He scored almost at the bottom. Today, he is the fire chief and manager of the fire services for a very large army base now used by the National Guard. His courage and heroism has put him on the front page of the local paper many times. He is a well respected member of the community. He is but one of the "successes" from my family of students!

While you may be expert in some area of electrical engineering, know that some of us are expert in matters of education. Have the decency to acknowledge it.
 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 26, 2007, 06:02:03 PM
NGC,

How is it not insulting to label every person on this forum as a "liberal" and a "communist", even those who just start to post, but you fein insult to being called a "right wing whitie". Are you not white? Is that the problem? Or do you for some reason believe that your POV is not an extreme right wing POV?

In any event, even the makers of the SAT test agree that the test is more geared to white males than any other group. Back when I took the tests, I was told my scores were exceptionally high "for a girl". Many of the test questions assumed knowledge of sports and other male activities which were unknown to me as the oldest in a family of all girls. There are means to judge if a test is geared towards one ethnic group or another, and those who do the research are pretty firmly agreed that the SAT tests are geared toward whites. I don't know if they are still as heavily geared towards males as they were back in the early sixties.

You opinion on this is totally immaterial. You could look it up online, but, from the quality of your posts on here, I am not sure you could understand what you read. It will be easier for you to simply take the word of those who CAN read the research. Be like Bush - rely on the summary of a summary.

My sympathy for students is geared towards the students I spent most of my teaching years in front of - learning disabled students for many years, then mixed LD and mildly retarded students. Most of the LD students were intelligent, but they were with me typically because they were poor readers and lousy test takers. My classes were usually about 50-50 black/white with some Indian and other ethnicities thrown in for seasoning. I was quite successful with these students, and as I run into them and find out who is doing what 10-20 years later, I am well pleased with my career. Only one of my students (as far as I know) ever took the SAT. He scored almost at the bottom. Today, he is the fire chief and manager of the fire services for a very large army base now used by the National Guard. His courage and heroism has put him on the front page of the local paper many times. He is a well respected member of the community. He is but one of the "successes" from my family of students!

While you may be expert in some area of electrical engineering, know that some of us are expert in matters of education. Have the decency to acknowledge it.
 

Well said.  And congratulations.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 26, 2007, 07:15:01 PM
 All I was asking you to do was walking in the shoes of an inner city black kid and see the world through his eyes.  How is that insulting you?  And if I did, I most humbly apologizing.  It was not my point to insult you.

Apologizing IS great. Saying that I was looking thru the rightwing eyes of a 'whitie' was un-necessary.


And weasel, labeling people liberal or communist as you so seem to not like, IS not name calling---I refer to liberals or communists as liberals or communists. You don't like being 'labeled' as a liberal or a communist, stop advocating communist or liberal positions! You may 'label' me conservative all day and I promise to be properly annoyed. Calling someone what they are in the political arena IS not name calling. Period. Unless, of course, you are a liberal that just doesn't like being called what you ARE!

Are you seriously denying that you are a liberal?? I hope you answer this, as you will just prove my point!!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 26, 2007, 07:20:16 PM
All I was asking you to do was walking in the shoes of an inner city black kid and see the world through his eyes.  How is that insulting you?  And if I did, I most humbly apologizing.  It was not my point to insult you.

Apologizing IS great. Saying that I was looking thru the rightwing eyes of a 'whitie' was un-necessary.


And weasel, labeling people liberal or communist as you so seem to not like, IS not name calling---I refer to liberals or communists as liberals or communists. You don't like being 'labeled' as a liberal or a communist, stop advocating communist or liberal positions! You may 'label' me conservative all day and I promise to be properly annoyed. Calling someone what they are in the political arena IS not name calling. Period. Unless, of course, you are a liberal that just doesn't like being called what you ARE!

Are you seriously denying that you are a liberal?? I hope you answer this, as you will just prove my point!!

Ok.  Do you ever try to view the world through the eyes of someone else?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 26, 2007, 07:29:41 PM
Ok.  Do you ever try to view the world through the eyes of someone else?


Sure---but trying to say that tests are made so that only whites can pass them IS rather uninformed. Or that tests are made using less history of blacks, or whatever you're trying to say (I still am unable to figure it out), IS just absurd.

I would love to hear just ONE question from a test that you believe IS concocted in a biased fashion...


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 26, 2007, 07:32:58 PM
Bias

A famous example of alleged bias in the SAT I is the oarsman-regatta analogy question.[8] The object of the question was to find the pair of terms that have the relationship most similar to the relationship between "runner" and "marathon". The correct answer was "oarsman" and "regatta".
As shown above, SAT scores vary according to race, income, and parental educational background
As shown above, SAT scores vary according to race, income, and parental educational background

The question relied upon students knowing the meaning of the two terms, referring to a sport popular with the wealthy. While 53% of white students correctly answered the question, only 22% of black students did. [10] In response, the ETS reformed their fairness review process. Analogies questions have been eliminated entirely. It should be noted that gap in scores among races is even greater in the area of math, where it is difficult to posit cultural bias as an explanation. In 2006, the mean African American Math SAT score was 429, which is 107 points below the mean White Math score of 536, while on the (presumably more culturally loaded) Critical Reading Section, the mean African American SAT score was 434, only 93 points below the mean White score of 527. [11]


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 26, 2007, 07:47:22 PM
A famous example of alleged bias in the SAT I is the oarsman-regatta analogy question.[8] The object of the question was to find the pair of terms that have the relationship most similar to the relationship between "runner" and "marathon". The correct answer was "oarsman" and "regatta".
As shown above, SAT scores vary according to race, income, and parental educational background


This IS absolutely pathetic rationale. Whoever came up with this IS pathetic!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 26, 2007, 07:49:52 PM
A famous example of alleged bias in the SAT I is the oarsman-regatta analogy question.[8] The object of the question was to find the pair of terms that have the relationship most similar to the relationship between "runner" and "marathon". The correct answer was "oarsman" and "regatta".
As shown above, SAT scores vary according to race, income, and parental educational background


This IS absolutely pathetic rationale. Whoever came up with this IS pathetic!

In your humble opinion.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 26, 2007, 09:59:59 PM
ngc,

If you really don't think intelligence tests are biased, right wing rightie, try your hand at this one:

http://www.susanohanian.org/show_commentaries.html?id=170


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 26, 2007, 10:25:28 PM
NGC,

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that Sami's example was absurd. Do you not believe such questions are on the SAT? They are! Or, do you think that people who have no exposure to oarsmen and regatta should know the answer to the question regardless?

About fifteen years ago an old roommate of hubby's son was tested for Kindergarten. When the child was assigned to pre-K, the father went to the school to find out why. The child had failed the test. The child asked what questions the child missed. The one he remembered best was that the child was shown a picture of a boat and asked where it was stored over the winter. The father had a boat that was stored on a stand in the backyard over the winter, so of course, the child said "in the backyard". WRONG. The right answer was "in a slip". Seems the picture was supposed to be of a yacht. So, the child was delayed going into Kindergarten because his father didn't own a big enough boat.

Another example is more recent. A year ago the story hit the forum of a question on the NYC test for 3rd graders. It was supposed to determine if the child could make inferences from reading. The paragraph was a brief story about two sisters who played tennis. It mentioned that they were champions at "doubles", but did not include any indication what exactly "doubles" were. The question after the paragraph asked the child to define "doubles". Two "correct" answers were presented, that doubles was played with two pair of players, or that doubles was played with two balls. The most skilled reader could not discern the difference from the reading passage, but the only "correct" answer was that doubles is played with two pair of players.  

These are examples of the types of questions that separate, not just white from black, but also poor from well-off, suburban from rural or urban, and any other "them vs us" distinction you can think of. Sometimes the answers to these "culture-based" types of questions can be guessed at by non-privileged kids who are well read in the "classics". But, it is only enough to allow a small trickle into the upper balconies.

If you have ever seen the movie "Overboard", you may remember the scene where Goldy Hawn dresses down the teacher who failed to notice her boys were covered in poison ivy as the reason for their being so restless during the standardized test, and pointed says she believes TESTS are to PIGEON-HOLE students, which she approved us as the wife of a yachtsman, but having amnesia and thinking she is married to a fish-gut shoveling carpenter, she lashes out to protect "her" children from her basic knowledge.









Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 26, 2007, 10:39:45 PM
Oh Sami,

I've heard of that test, but this is the first time I had the chance to take it. I got 9 right out of the 12. Not back for a gray-haired white lady!

I will be curious to see how NGC scores on it. If he will tell us.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 27, 2007, 05:57:36 AM
I didn't know the answers to any of them.  White haired white guy here, who lives in relative seculsion to black culture in rural NH.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 27, 2007, 07:56:40 AM
TESTS are to PIGEON-HOLE students,...

In your liberal mind, maybe. You just cannot stand the thought that someone might, 'gasp', fail. And at the mere mention of that thought, there MUST be some form of 'dunbing down' the rest of the academic crowd around that failure so as 'not to hurt his/her feelings'.

You're damm right I want the people learning pharmaceutical and surgery procedures to be PIGEON-HOLED, as I do NOT want an incompetent prescribing medicines or performing operations for me! Maybe you prefer that---as it sure seems that someone has been educating you erroneously! Anyone that can possibly even ATTEMPT to compare atrocities of communism with deaths of people caught in a fire at a hog plant definitely has something amiss going on. But, what can one expect from a liberal?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 27, 2007, 08:02:58 AM
ngc,

TESTS are to PIGEON-HOLE students,..

Then take the one I posted and tell us the results, coward!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 27, 2007, 08:33:36 AM
Then take the one I posted and tell us the results, coward!

Why call me a coward when you are offering it to me? I took it---got 8 right.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 27, 2007, 10:12:08 AM
Then take the one I posted and tell us the results, coward!

Why call me a coward when you are offering it to me? I took it---got 8 right.


Good for you.  I suppose you also know what a "regatta" is as well.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 27, 2007, 10:13:43 AM
Sam,

I had erroneously thought you were a woman. My bad! I was trying to interpret your login name. I have saved the document with the answers to it. I didn't read it, but will hold if for when I get "a round tuit". Two of the missed answers I should have known and had a senior moment and guessed wrongly.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 27, 2007, 10:21:55 AM
Good for you.  I suppose you also know what a "regatta" is as well.


Yes, I do. But to suggest that this IS something more than a lack of being articulate for some IS just palin silly. A VERY SMALL percent of people ever get to participate in one. I would wager than ANYONE, including blacks, that live near a port, would probably have been exposed to the word through local publications. At any rate, the attempt to say that whites living in Colorado would be more apt to know the word than blacks living in Colorado, IS nonsense. This IS just dumbing down of America---regardless of the labeling' that some wish to assign to tests. I have noticed that only left leaning people attempt to use these accusations.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 27, 2007, 10:27:44 AM
Only 8 right, NGC? For shame! You are remanded to the janitorial squads for the rest of your life, you ignorant man, you!

Making tests fair, eliminating the upper crust focus on the individual questions is NOT an attempt to help test takers "feel good". It is about the test accurately measuring what they say they measure.

When it comes to educational testing you are judging the horse without ever seeing it. You have no idea what you are talking about, and throw in stupid statement that show your propensity to think yourself "superior" to others. If you had spent as much time using and analyzing standardized tests as I have, you would know, they are rife for not measure what they purport to measure. The results of tests when they cross ethnic and cultural lines are useless. It is far more useful to determine the intelligence of a student by their performance in the classroom than to set your mind to whatever the standardized tests indicate.

Educate yourself, old man, educate yourself!




Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 27, 2007, 10:32:14 AM
NGC,

You are right in that it is not ONLY a black/white issue on the regatta example. It is a where you live issue. Someone living in North Dakota or Nebraska will be a clueless. I have said before, the tests are machined for a "them vs us" use. It is not exclusively racist, but the results show up as racist because black vs white is the way it is compared. You continue to ignore what I say and insist on believing your concocted view of the world.

Educate yourself, old man, educate yourself.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 27, 2007, 10:44:47 AM
How does one obtain such a cockeyed view of the world as these neocon rightwing fascists seem to have?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 27, 2007, 03:27:54 PM
Sam,

They slept through their history and govenment classes in school.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 27, 2007, 03:35:10 PM
How does one obtain such a cockeyed view of the world as these neocon rightwing fascists seem to have?

As Mencken said about Calvin Coolidge, "He looks like he was weaned on a pickle!"


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 27, 2007, 05:28:27 PM
Weaned on sour grapes, as well, perhaps.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 27, 2007, 05:48:16 PM
Even though I'm conservative,  I got all the answers on the Cap's quiz correct...in fact, it was harder to find the answer key than it was to answer the questions. 

The question for me regarding bias in testing is how this speaks to the purpose and function of education.  Educators should strive to use diverse materials in their teaching, and do their best to expose children to ideas and culture they might otherwise be exposed to.  This is particularly important in a rapidly changing and  Global Economy.  Mass media makes it much easier to do this today than it was years back.  The availablity of dvd's, cd's, huge on-line libraries, computer resources makes it easy for all but the laziest of teachers to open many new worlds to their students.

Funny story about pre-K testing.  My son was tested before entering school because he had a late birthday.  One of the questions on the test was "What does a balloon do?"  My son said, "Explode."  Nope...the correct answer was pop.  Even though explode shows a more advanced use of vocabulary than pop...wrong.  But he might have gotten the answer right if I'd been a less cautious mother.  I never had balloons in my house until both of my children were in school...choking hazard.

I heard a report of NPR this morning about a non-profit company in MA that is building laptop computers that will sell for about $175-200 for students in third world countries.  There are millions on order.  Programs like these will help cultures get to know each better.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 27, 2007, 06:43:57 PM
samiinh...the world gets smaller every day.

That seems to be so true today.  The other day I joined a web forum in the UK in seconds.  Even ten years ago, that wouldn't have happened in seconds.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 27, 2007, 07:17:47 PM
Sami,

Fifteen years ago I was the only teacher in my school with online access from the classroom (I was online from home, and knew what was out there for the kids). One of the main projects we were involved in was a project from the UK that was distributed via email. In fact, with the Queen coming to Virginia next month, I have considered taking my picture of her in a special ed classroom with the leader of that project, to have her sign it along with Tom. But, perhaps that would be against protocol to have her sign an old picture of her after  someone else in the picture has signed it.

The first activity I did online with my students was not quite directly online yet. Tom Holloway had asked all the kids (from around the world of English speaking countries) to write and describe what they would be eating for Christmas or whatever mid-winter holiday they celebrated. I downloaded a number of posts, put them on disk, took the disk to school, and let the classes read it from the screen on the classroom computer. They were delighted to read of the variety of Christmas Dinner not just around the world, but also in different parts of our own country. One by one, they sat down at the computer and pecked out what they each expected to eat for Christmas, saved them on the disk, and I uploaded them when I got home. And, of course, continued to bring them the files as they came in on the email.

In that first exposure to the Internet, there was a post from the moderator of the project, Tom Holloway, who said that for Christmas Breakfast, he would eat "spotted dick with custard of course". Needless to say that caused quite an uproar with my teenagers. I had no idea what spotted dick was, and suggested that the classes write to Tom and ask what it was. Tom responded with a description and a recipe to make it in the microwave. Years later, Tom visited the US, and made a trip to Virginia to let me "eat his spotted dick". It is an interesting dish, but the name is much more exciting!

So, ever since the birth of email, we have been bridging the cultural gap. I tend to credit our early use of email for the great successes of my LD students. They were computer literate as HS grads a decade before the regular ed students reached that achievement. And, as a student with Spina Bifida (who was in almost all regular classes), learned: my students could find England/UK on a world map when the regular kids in the same school had no idea where it was when a history teacher in 11th grade asked the class. Becky came back to my class, proud that she could answer the teacher's question, and totally incredulous that the sped kids knew something that most of the regular kids didn't. All because we were using the Internet.

And, Laurie, I wish the Internet then was as robust as it is now. I am truly saddened when I am in sped classes and see that there are no computers, no internet, and the teachers do not even know why that is bad!



Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on April 27, 2007, 08:48:58 PM
I am truly saddened when I am in sped classes and see that there are no computers, no internet, and the teachers do not even know why that is bad![/b]

I would agree.

The poll at the top of the page ask if education is better now as compared to when we were in school. For the most part a self motivated attitude of wanting to learn is the same now as it was 10, 20, 40  etc..etc.. years ago. That attitude is the key to taking advantage of the educational opportunities America has to offer.  With everything being equal...coming from loving families... the most important factor in thriving educationally, is the student themself. We live in a world that likes to blame. Blame the teacher, blame the parents, etc...HOGWASH :-) The kid, student, brat, punk, angel ... whatever it may be, is responsible.

IMO,  the masses, generation after generation -myself included- doesn't/hasn't taken advantage of the educatioinal opportunity offered them. Why? Is it possible that we overrate education? Noooooooo, knowledge is power. Yet, society showers riches and glory upon industries where  book smarts don't play a major role. We pay an athletes, stars 20-40 million, we pay our teachers 20-40 thousand .... kids know this ... to some education might not look so important.

As for the poll, due to technology ... making the world a smaller place ... and the ability to communicate with the world .... have information at your fingertips. I'd say the educational opportunity now is as great as its ever been.

David



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 27, 2007, 10:30:05 PM
David,

I tend to think education is better. More information is provided to students, even if it isn't on the Internet. The children come to Kindergarten (or many do) already knowing what I was taught at that level.

When I was in high school, my Mom marveled at what I was learning in Biology, since it was so much more than she had learned in the same school. Now, I see what the children learn in biology, and "I" marvel. There is so much more to learn in a year's time.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 28, 2007, 06:02:33 AM
David,

I tend to think education is better. More information is provided to students, even if it isn't on the Internet. The children come to Kindergarten (or many do) already knowing what I was taught at that level.

When I was in high school, my Mom marveled at what I was learning in Biology, since it was so much more than she had learned in the same school. Now, I see what the children learn in biology, and "I" marvel. There is so much more to learn in a year's time.



I'm just not convinced that the kids are getting as good as background as I did, and by that I mean the ability to know where to go to find things.  My high school English and History classes were spent in reserach and study and I've valued that all my live.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 28, 2007, 01:59:50 PM
Sam,

I don't remember doing much research in high school, but then my school did not have a library, although it was 2 blocks away from the public library which I enjoyed going to. But, I don't remember reading a lot of history back then, mostly fiction not on the reading list.

A lot of students today use the school library to access the internet. They are supposed to be doing research, and most do so from my limited observations. They use google a lot, or the teacher gives them links.

Therefore, based on my experience (in a private school) today's kids are doing a whole lot more research than I did in high school.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 28, 2007, 04:27:12 PM
Sam,

I don't remember doing much research in high school, but then my school did not have a library, although it was 2 blocks away from the public library which I enjoyed going to. But, I don't remember reading a lot of history back then, mostly fiction not on the reading list.

A lot of students today use the school library to access the internet. They are supposed to be doing research, and most do so from my limited observations. They use google a lot, or the teacher gives them links.

Therefore, based on my experience (in a private school) today's kids are doing a whole lot more research than I did in high school.


I believe I was very fortunate to have had such a program back then.  I had some pretty strict teachers, but as an adult I've always felt blessed to have been in their classes.  The skills I learned then, I still use daily now.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 28, 2007, 09:30:33 PM
Sam,

There may be a distinction in the time when we were each in high school. I graduated in 1963. You?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 29, 2007, 03:12:00 AM
nytemps,

*Count me as another who believes that the public school subject matter studied is ratcheted up over time. 

I have been teaching history since 1965, and I can state without fear of contradiction that both the among and the complexity of what my students have had to learn has increased by many orders of magnitude.

My students also have to be much more careful researchers.  There is so much information out there that one of my major tasks is teaching them how to evaluate it.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 29, 2007, 06:21:41 AM
nytemps,

*Count me as another who believes that the public school subject matter studied is ratcheted up over time. 

I have been teaching history since 1965, and I can state without fear of contradiction that both the among and the complexity of what my students have had to learn has increased by many orders of magnitude.

My students also have to be much more careful researchers.  There is so much information out there that one of my major tasks is teaching them how to evaluate it.

You must be close to retirement!!!  I graduated from HS in 1960 and began teaching in 1964, but ended my teaching career in 1973.  47 years of additional history etc to learn about in an age of information, is truly an important additional task. 

All I have been saying is that I was very fortunate to have had teachers who taught us process as well as specifics.  It is that process that has meant so much to me in these last 47 years.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 29, 2007, 11:14:43 AM
sam,
All I have been saying is that I was very fortunate to have had teachers who taught us process as well as specifics.  It is that process that has meant so much to me in these last 47 years.
Like you, I graduated HS in 1960.  THanks to a wonderful 11th grade history teacher who took me literally from the slums to the Ivy League (Columbia, 1964), I have tried to pay it forward ever since.
Funny you should mention process.  We had a planning session for next year just yesterday, and I got on my hind legs and barked Process, Process, Process for 6 straight hours.
If we can make the process of learning easier, the content of learning will increase.
I retire in May, 2008 after 43 years of sheer FUN!
I count myself blessed that, even at this stager of my career, going to school still excites me.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 29, 2007, 11:39:40 AM
Cap,

What excites me most about your posts, is that you are, at an age when many teachers have lost that wonder and excitement, still thinking that teaching is FUN. It truly is! There is nothing quite like seeing the bright face of a students who has just comprehended and "seen the light". Hardly a day goes by when I don't wish that my health had allowed me to continue in the classroom. I truly miss it. But, I seem to have found a way to continue teaching by making websites and writing stories.

I am working on a story about Teddy Roosevelt, in the closing days of his administration, when he set out on a hundred mile horseride to prove that this exercise was not to onerous for the senior ranks of military officers. It will be a "day in the life" story. A friend has noted that I should include mention of the Secret Service in the story, but so far, neither of the sources I am reading make serious mention of the Secret Service. In the whole biography by Nathan Miller, he mentions Secret Service very briefly on only 2-3 occasions. He does not suggest if TR was irritated by the Secret Service, or open to having them join him on his escapades.

Can you shed any light on this, Cap?





Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 29, 2007, 06:08:47 PM
NY Temps,

I met my second husband whle a college student (raising two teenaged boys). He used to grumble that I spent so much time studying instead of letting him court me. Then I did student teaching and the load became more. We went to an auto race out of state, and in the motel room, I was making laminated ghosts containing the basic addition facts, with the question on one side, the answer on the other. Then, I started teaching, and again the load became larger. We got married, and he learned that he had to settle for my time between preparing for lessons and grading the results of the lessons. Finally, my health declined, and he begged me to retire. I hung in almost until I had to be dragged out on a stretcher. Now, I am retired, and instead of spending my time with him, especially since he is also retired now, I spend it writing stories for children. Spouses of teachers do not have an easy time of it!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 29, 2007, 08:25:50 PM
sam,
All I have been saying is that I was very fortunate to have had teachers who taught us process as well as specifics.  It is that process that has meant so much to me in these last 47 years.
Like you, I graduated HS in 1960.  THanks to a wonderful 11th grade history teacher who took me literally from the slums to the Ivy League (Columbia, 1964), I have tried to pay it forward ever since.
Funny you should mention process.  We had a planning session for next year just yesterday, and I got on my hind legs and barked Process, Process, Process for 6 straight hours.
If we can make the process of learning easier, the content of learning will increase.
I retire in May, 2008 after 43 years of sheer FUN!
I count myself blessed that, even at this stager of my career, going to school still excites me.


Congratulations of a successful career.  My turning point came in the early 1970s, when our country was going through some major upheavels related to Nixon and the war, the drug culture, women's liberation, etc. etc.  I seemed that suddenly, everyone was my boss!!  I didn't want to get up in the morning and go to school any longer.  So, it was then that I left and entered the business world full time.  I will reach my FRA in Jan. 2008, but I may begin a semi-retirement next year, if I can figure out how to.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 29, 2007, 10:17:37 PM
Cap and Sam,

Unlike you two, I was in the business world for a long time. My turn around also came in the 70's when I realized I couldn't do anything in business anymore without a college degree, and even with that my progress was severely hampered by being a women in the south. So, I quite the business world, went to college, and began teaching in the early 80's. I loved it! It was so much more personally rewarding than the business world had been. The students really wanted to hear what I thought. They followed my suggestions. They beat the odds on their unlikeliness to succeed because of their disabilities. And, they were some of the first students to enjoy learning on the Internet - back before the WWW had been invented.

During my teaching years, the concept of home schooling arose to general acceptance. There are many instances where it is superior to a school education, especially when the parent doing the teaching knows what they are doing. The children become true independent learners. They do not strive for GRADES, but become interested in the merits of learning for its own sake. Children who were home schooled for some amount of elementary school are often excellent high school students. They wine about "work" less often than those who have always been in a classroom.

For this reason, among others, I'd like to see us open opportunities for children to get a good education at home. At present, it is a lot of work for a parent to assemble the resources and have the knowledge and skill to do it all. The books available to parents are pretty awful and need a lot of supplementation to keep the kids from becoming robots. It is an area that can truly be "fixed" by providing more education online, providing all children with access to those truly knowledgeable in each field.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 30, 2007, 05:37:08 AM
Cap and Sam,

Unlike you two, I was in the business world for a long time. My turn around also came in the 70's when I realized I couldn't do anything in business anymore without a college degree, and even with that my progress was severely hampered by being a women in the south. So, I quite the business world, went to college, and began teaching in the early 80's. I loved it! It was so much more personally rewarding than the business world had been. The students really wanted to hear what I thought. They followed my suggestions. They beat the odds on their unlikeliness to succeed because of their disabilities. And, they were some of the first students to enjoy learning on the Internet - back before the WWW had been invented.

During my teaching years, the concept of home schooling arose to general acceptance. There are many instances where it is superior to a school education, especially when the parent doing the teaching knows what they are doing. The children become true independent learners. They do not strive for GRADES, but become interested in the merits of learning for its own sake. Children who were home schooled for some amount of elementary school are often excellent high school students. They wine about "work" less often than those who have always been in a classroom.

For this reason, among others, I'd like to see us open opportunities for children to get a good education at home. At present, it is a lot of work for a parent to assemble the resources and have the knowledge and skill to do it all. The books available to parents are pretty awful and need a lot of supplementation to keep the kids from becoming robots. It is an area that can truly be "fixed" by providing more education online, providing all children with access to those truly knowledgeable in each field.


I fear that the christianists who would make America into a theocracy lead in the "home schooling" craze.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 30, 2007, 07:19:05 AM
Sam,

To some extent you are right. There is a dominance of Christianists in the home schooling movement. I subscribe to the publications of the home schooling association here in Virginia, and there is a constant mix of religion with education. That is OK by me. When the children grow up, they can choose to follow the lead of their parents, or reject it. And, many do reject it, unless they go on to a college/university such as Liberty (Jerry Falwell) or Bob Jones Uni out west. Otherwise, they tend to modify their views as they take their place in adult society, no unlike what I did myself, after education mostly in a religious school and all the indoctrination that goes along with it.

The home schooling movement is moving towards an ala carte method of education, including some courses from outsiders to supplement what the parents cannot do well. It was with homeschoolers in mind, that I developed my online Famous Americans course on Universal. There have been some home schoolers who took it, but just as often my students are adults who just feel like they want to learn more about history.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: ngc321 on April 30, 2007, 11:25:29 AM
Liberals rarely blame people for the evil they do. Instead, they blame economics, parents, capitalism, racism and anything else that can let the individual off the hook.

This sounds like you, weezer, blaming capitalism for deaths when she has no rational response to the horrors of communism. It IS called being liberal---not moderate.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 30, 2007, 11:34:56 AM
ngc,

* Liberals rarely blame people for the evil they do. Instead, they blame economics, parents, capitalism, racism and anything else that can let the individual off the hook.

Fortunately for the haelth of the world, John Calvin and Herbert Spencer are dead!

Do you really believe that those who live off inherited wealth that they did nothing to create are responsible for choosing the right parents?

Since you are so gung-ho about the war in Iraq, why didn't you volunteer for combat in Vietnam when you had the chance?

I know, your neck was more important than those of your buddies.  I'll bet you cheered them off to war, just as you do today's suckers.

Two of my students have their names inscribed on The Wall.  Although the cause was foolish, they died heroes, on the hook if you will, which is more than we can say about you.

Tom Paine had a term for you.  Does Sunshine Soldier ring a bell?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 30, 2007, 12:33:26 PM
Where was Bush during the Viet Nam War?  Where was Cheney, and the rest of the cabal?  They had more important things to do, I guess.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 30, 2007, 12:37:42 PM
NGC,

You are wrong about liberals not believing in evil. They see evil in conservatives all the time. I see evil in you, wanting others to die in a fruitless war, while you remain alive to spill venom everywhere. Shame on you!!! You belong locked up in a mental hospital.

 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 30, 2007, 12:45:22 PM
NGC,

You are wrong about liberals not believing in evil. They see evil in conservatives all the time. I see evil in you, wanting others to die in a fruitless war, while you remain alive to spill venom everywhere. Shame on you!!! You belong locked up in a mental hospital.

 

Sometimes he does seem to be a little over the top, now, doesn't he/she.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on April 30, 2007, 05:00:32 PM
Anyone wish to discuss real issues in education. Like Assessment for Learning? Heterogeneous grouping? The correlation between wealth and performance on standardized tests?

Anyone?



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 30, 2007, 05:08:42 PM
Mr. Utley,

I would definitely prefer discussing issues in education than the constant struggle in NGC's mind between good and evil.

What do you mean by Assessment of Learning? Are you referring to authentic assessment or the silly use of standardized tests?

If you want to assess what children has learned, measure what they know at the beginning of the year, collect what they produce during the year as evidence of learning, and at the end of the year compare their incoming knowledge with their exit knowledge. That is how to assess "learning". Anything less is political poppycock.

If you want to discuss the future of education to include the Internet as an important delivery system for a greater variety of information than is currently available from textbooks and other resouces, I'm ready for it!

Anne in Virginia


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on April 30, 2007, 05:18:15 PM
> Anyone wish to discuss real issues in education.

LOL. Does anyone want to dicuss what Mr. Utley considers to be real issues

I guess if Mr. Utley isn't interested in the issue being discussed he doesn't consider it a real issue.

While I think this forum often goes off topic, which I think is what Mr. Utley was touching upon, I think it's important to teach children how to get along with others. Mr Utley, I don't think it's a proper etiquette to come into a forum thinking the ideas you wish to dicuss are real issues ...... by doing so, probably unconciously, disrespecting all the other issues previously discussed.

Sort of like Mr. Utley's here,  lets discuss real issues .... not the irrelavant ones that we've been discussing a along.

So, before we discuss,  Assessment for Learning? Heterogeneous grouping? The correlation between wealth and performance on standardized tests? lets discuss: How To Introduce Ourselves To Others.


Sorry for the sarcasm of last line, I just couldn't resist.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on April 30, 2007, 07:12:21 PM
Generation Joshua
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Generation Joshua (Often called "GenJ" by its members) is an American Conservative Christian youth organization founded in 2003[1] that aims to encourage the involvement of 11-19 year-olds in civics and politics.[2] Its national headquarters are based in Purcellville, Virginia.[2] A division of the Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA), Generation Joshua is a non-profit 501(c)4 organization. Although most of its activities are non-partisan, all partisan activities are funded by the organization's PAC,[3][4]

Are you familiar with this, Anne?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 30, 2007, 07:25:19 PM
Sam,

No, I've never heard of it. I will see what I can find out.

David,

Cool your jets! Do you have anything to contribute to the issues that MrUtley brings up? At least he doesn't come on here declaring everyone a "liberal" without having any clue what each of us believe or don't. It is time to put some discussion on educational issues.

Regarding heterogenous classes, I will suggest that some of the best class groups I taught were either all boys (several times) or all girls (one time). These were high school classes. I don't think the same would be true of elementary classes where the kids often pay no attention to gender. But, in adolescence, the biological urge to find a mate sometimes interferes with the learning adventure. Far too many of our girls are lured into young motherhood which tends to cut off the opportunities for higher education and stepping into the fulness of life.

I would like to see some experimentation with separating the genders at least in middle and high school just to see how achievement is affected.

As to the effect of poverty and wealth on children, I think we pretty much have that down pat. We know that privilege leads to children better prepared for school before kindergarten, and continuing all the way up through. To our shame, not only does society not provide for better resources at home for children in poverty, but the schools typically attended by poor children are generally lacking in basic resources.

So, David, what is your take on these issues?

 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 30, 2007, 07:30:01 PM
Garrick,
The correlation between wealth and performance on standardized tests?

Here in Colorado, the only statistically valid conclusion that has come out of our state testing program, the C(harter)S(chool)A(dvocay)P(rogram) has been that scores improves in direct proportion to the size of the houses surrounding the school.
So what do our noble legislators do?  They take $$$ away from the low scoring schools and give it to the ones that score higher.
If a school scores really low three years in a row, it is by state law converted to a charter school which is exempt from further testing.
No, this is not OZ.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on April 30, 2007, 09:39:22 PM
Mr. Utley,

I would definitely prefer discussing issues in education than the constant struggle in NGC's mind between good and evil.

What do you mean by Assessment of Learning? Are you referring to authentic assessment or the silly use of standardized tests?

If you want to assess what children has learned, measure what they know at the beginning of the year, collect what they produce during the year as evidence of learning, and at the end of the year compare their incoming knowledge with their exit knowledge. That is how to assess "learning". Anything less is political poppycock.

If you want to discuss the future of education to include the Internet as an important delivery system for a greater variety of information than is currently available from textbooks and other resouces, I'm ready for it!

Anne in Virginia


Assessment For Learning, Anne. A simple definition is using assessment to inform the learner and to retool the instruction, so that the learner is apart of the assessment. It could include the Internet, but it's not necessary.

I just wanted to see some conversation about education here. Thanks for the response.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on April 30, 2007, 09:52:18 PM
> Anyone wish to discuss real issues in education.

LOL. Does anyone want to dicuss what Mr. Utley considers to be real issues

I guess if Mr. Utley isn't interested in the issue being discussed he doesn't consider it a real issue.

While I think this forum often goes off topic, which I think is what Mr. Utley was touching upon, I think it's important to teach children how to get along with others. Mr Utley, I don't think it's a proper etiquette to come into a forum thinking the ideas you wish to dicuss are real issues ...... by doing so, probably unconciously, disrespecting all the other issues previously discussed.

Sort of like Mr. Utley's here,  lets discuss real issues .... not the irrelavant ones that we've been discussing a along.

So, before we discuss,  Assessment for Learning? Heterogeneous grouping? The correlation between wealth and performance on standardized tests? lets discuss: How To Introduce Ourselves To Others.


Sorry for the sarcasm of last line, I just couldn't resist.

David


It appears that in your zest to be the Grand PooPah of the Education Forum, insisting that others kiss your ring, etc., you neglected to understand the post completely.


The question was whether anyone wished to discuss real issues in education.

I did not say nor did I imply that the previous posts did not reflect "real issues", just that they had little to do with education. It is especially ridiculous given that half the posters here have had the same "discussion" going in a different, albeit appropriate forum.

So, in effect, yes, the same posts here are irrelevant, and redundant.


 

I could care less about your dubious concern for "ettiquette".
 

No sarcasm. Just clear language, so don't overinterpret it---again.

The introduction is complete. 





Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 01, 2007, 12:38:54 AM
MrUtley,

I welcome the opportunity to talk about education instead of politics. There are other threads for politics, and only one for education.

Assessment for learning is what teachers have been doing for a very long time. Some get fancy, and do a pre-test and post-test, along with interim quizzes, for each unit. Others use a more informal method, such as a discussion at the beginning to gauge what the kids already know, and discussion throughout to gauge what is going in. Of course, a teacher must be good at pulling the shy kids into a discussion so you don't mistakenly think they aren't learning. Small classes are better served (in my experience) with the discussion method, but with a large class you almost always have to resort to pencil and paper, or, an online test/quiz.

There are a number of quiz softwares available that can be run independently, or on a web page, which can alleviate a lot of the problems of pencil/paper tests and quizzes. Of course, you have to have the computers such that the kids can use them for this purpose. Flash lets you make a test or quiz in which the questions presented on any one quiz are both random in order, and randomly chosen from a bank of questions. Not very easy to cheat even if you can see your neighbor's screen!

While I was teaching high schoolers (Sped), a friend was teaching grad students. His favorite way to provide a weighty exam was to make up the question bank, then randomize the numbers so that no two students had the same test. Then, he allowed them to look up procedures if they had a momentary lapse of memory, since that was how things were done in the "real world". They could even ask a neighbor how to do somthing. He still got a decent curve on the exam grades indicating who learned the material and who didn't.

The difference in assessment for learning from the standardized assessments under NCLB, is that assessing for learning has a useful purpose in promoting learning. NCLB does nothing but punish those who have already been punished in genetics, environment, etc.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh2 on May 01, 2007, 05:54:50 AM
According to that website, Anne, the goal is to train (brain wash?) enough young people to take over the government in the future. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 01, 2007, 08:39:46 AM
No sarcasm. Just clear language, so don't overinterpret it---again.

Mr. Utley, good morning.

Often when I go to Parent -Teachers Night (one of my favorites), you run into teachers who are so used to speaking to children,  they  aren't comfortable speaking with  adults.

Do I work for you? Are you my dad? Am I one of your students? I didn't think so, but your so don't overinterpret it---again. comment had me thinking you might not be sure.

Educate & have a nice day.

The Grand Poobah


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 01, 2007, 09:38:04 AM
On NPR this morning, they said that in today's army, only 80% of those serving are high school graduates.  Many others have also had criminal records. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 01, 2007, 11:00:51 AM
Assessment for learning is what teachers have been doing for a very long time. Some get fancy, and do a pre-test and post-test, along with interim quizzes, for each unit. Others use a more informal method, such as a discussion at the beginning to gauge what the kids already know, and discussion throughout to gauge what is going in. Of course, a teacher must be good at pulling the shy kids into a discussion so you don't mistakenly think they aren't learning. Small classes are better served (in my experience) with the discussion method, but with a large class you almost always have to resort to pencil and paper, or, an online test/quiz.

Assessment for learning is a bit more than that. It includes students in the process of determining what is most important, and what should be learned. By doing so, clear goals are set for the students, in conjucntion with the students. This has been proven to help them learn, and the learning tends to stick with them.

teachers have been doing this, but almost accidentally.

When teachers are conscious of the goals, and the goals of the learning are clear to and with the students, everyone benefits.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 01, 2007, 11:02:48 AM
No sarcasm. Just clear language, so don't overinterpret it---again.

Mr. Utley, good morning.

Often when I go to Parent -Teachers Night (one of my favorites), you run into teachers who are so used to speaking to children,  they  aren't comfortable speaking with  adults.

Do I work for you? Are you my dad? Am I one of your students? I didn't think so, but your so don't overinterpret it---again. comment had me thinking you might not be sure.

Educate & have a nice day.

The Grand Poobah

I am very comfortable with adults. I just didn't recognize you as being one, considering your original post to me.

I do hope that is clear for you, Your Eminence.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 01, 2007, 11:31:06 AM
Let's be nice, guys.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 01, 2007, 04:53:33 PM
David,

You are way out of line. You do not speak for the educators on this forum who welcome a more professional discussion of education. We know what MrUtley meant in his first post. You copped an attitude. Considering your only claim to fame in education is your advocacy of non-racism, you should just step aside when the conversation goes over your head. Sit down and stop insulting the child asking the questions of the teachers!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 01, 2007, 05:38:44 PM
You are way out of line.

I was out of line, but not way out.

You do not speak for the educators on this forum who welcome a more professional discussion of education.

Never, ever claimed or thought that I did. However, since you said it,  please post for others to see where I made such a claim. 


We know what MrUtley meant in his first post. 

When you say 'we' who are you speaking for?  Are you speaking for others on this forum? If so, whom?  If so, why? You do not speak for the educators on this forum who welcome a more professional discussion of education. wise words that you said. What's that saying, 'practice what you preach'.


Considering your only claim to fame in education is your advocacy of non-racism,


That wasn't nice Anne. Not true, either, but even if my only claim to fame was that when children go to Google or Yahoo, search 'learn about ending racism' and out of over a million choices,  LEARN is at the top, I'll take it.



you should just step aside when the conversation goes over your head.


Once again, not nice Anne. If I had thought the same thing about you --- which I don't --- many posters would have thought you should have stopped participating  long ago ... more so on The Times than on this new forum.



Sit down and stop insulting the child asking the questions of the teachers!

Huh?

Anne, overall I agree with you. Also, I like your feistiness in  defending Mr. Utley. I did not have to be so picky  with Mr. Utley. It's a forum, I was having some fun.

Overall ... I was wrong.
It probably won't be the last time.

Anne, have you ever done wrong on a forum?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 01, 2007, 06:03:18 PM
David,

You are way out of line. You do not speak for the educators on this forum who welcome a more professional discussion of education. We know what MrUtley meant in his first post. You copped an attitude. Considering your only claim to fame in education is your advocacy of non-racism, you should just step aside when the conversation goes over your head. Sit down and stop insulting the child asking the questions of the teachers!


Good to see you back.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 01, 2007, 07:41:50 PM
David,

You know quite well that I have made mistakes on fora. Remember when I was so exciting in outing Owlice's son that I shared his website address and hers on the forum and was stood in the corner for 24 hours for it?

The fact that you admit it was a mistake is to your credit. I hope you will be able to move on from here, and participate in a discussion of educational issues instead of the constant labeling of "liberals" which is all that has been going on here almost from the beginning.

Mr Utley brings up an important aspect of education. That is the marrying of teacher and students towards a mutually understood goal in learning. I

 have no idea what your comment about some teachers having difficulty talking to adults has to do with the issues raised by Utley. The importance in teaching is the interaction between teacher and student. I would add, that from my experience, some parents are difficult to communicate with. Some either want to have the whole say, or they clam up and offer nothing. Not all parents, of course, but some of them. So, just as surely, there are teachers who are less competent at communicating with parents. We are all individuals.

As to what Utley is saying about assessment, it is an important issue. It is making the assessment part of the learning process FOR THE STUDENT.






Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 01, 2007, 08:18:54 PM
Will NCLB be re-authorized?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 01, 2007, 10:40:39 PM
Sam,

It is up in the air. The Bush administration is putting out a lot of propaganda that "it works!", but when you examine the evidence, it doesn't indicate so at all.

Much will depend on how sophisticated the congress' ability to read through the propaganda is, as to whether it will be re-authorized. NCLB did show politicians what educators already knew, that schools for children in poverty and schools that work primarily with minority students, have a harder job to meet "achievement goals" than schools in the well-heeled suburbs. But, what can you expect when the well-heeled schools have more resources, better paid (and often better) teachers than the schools for the poor and minorities. Conservative love to say that we shouldn't "throw money at the problem", but then they shower the suburban schools with resources and pay teachers top dollar. Go figure!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 02, 2007, 06:15:45 AM
Sam,

It is up in the air. The Bush administration is putting out a lot of propaganda that "it works!", but when you examine the evidence, it doesn't indicate so at all.

Much will depend on how sophisticated the congress' ability to read through the propaganda is, as to whether it will be re-authorized. NCLB did show politicians what educators already knew, that schools for children in poverty and schools that work primarily with minority students, have a harder job to meet "achievement goals" than schools in the well-heeled suburbs. But, what can you expect when the well-heeled schools have more resources, better paid (and often better) teachers than the schools for the poor and minorities. Conservative love to say that we shouldn't "throw money at the problem", but then they shower the suburban schools with resources and pay teachers top dollar. Go figure!

Do you think the true purpose is to dismantle the public school system in America?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 02, 2007, 07:17:04 AM
Sam,

The clear agenda durinig the Reagan administration and the first Bush administration was to dismantle the public schools and convert all schooling to for-profit enterprises paid for by the taxpayers.

Bush II has increased the involvement of the feds in education, while supporting the voucher movement, a tactic which disarmed both the public school advocates and the voucher folks. Of course, most of the voucher schools are not under the aegis of the public schools and are exempt from the "testing" requirements, so there is no evidence that using vouchers helps achievement. The first thing that voucher (and some charter) schools do, is reduce the pay to teachers. Obviously, as a capitalist society, we understand that the quality of teachers will be less as a result of the lower pay.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 02, 2007, 07:22:42 AM
Sam,

The clear agenda durinig the Reagan administration and the first Bush administration was to dismantle the public schools and convert all schooling to for-profit enterprises paid for by the taxpayers.

Bush II has increased the involvement of the feds in education, while supporting the voucher movement, a tactic which disarmed both the public school advocates and the voucher folks. Of course, most of the voucher schools are not under the aegis of the public schools and are exempt from the "testing" requirements, so there is no evidence that using vouchers helps achievement. The first thing that voucher (and some charter) schools do, is reduce the pay to teachers. Obviously, as a capitalist society, we understand that the quality of teachers will be less as a result of the lower pay.



Why would conservatives want to cheat the children?  (In NH, the few charter schools that exist have records of failure and poor success).


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 02, 2007, 09:33:43 AM
Sam,

I think the conservatives have made in clear that they want public education to go away. They want education to  become a privilege of the elite, and to eliminate education of the poor beyond some feeble "basics".

I think it was you who asked about "Generation J" a few days ago. I check it out last night, and do not think it poses much of a problem, at least not for the immediate future. If homeschooling becomes more sophisticated and more wide-spread, then perhaps, just perhaps, it could become an issue. But, at present, the main activity of the group seems to be to maintain a booth at homeschool conventions and run a summer camp for home schoolers to learn about government from their perspective. I didn't search far enough to really determine what they consider to be "responsible government". The website for the town of Purcellville indicates it is considered a suburb of DC, but it is probably at the far western end of those suburbs. The website does not even mention the existance of the "Patrick Henry College" that the Generation J promoter has founded there.







Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 02, 2007, 11:30:48 AM
Do you think the true purpose is to dismantle the public school system in America?

Before you go laying all the blame for NCLB at the feet of the Bush Administration, keep in mind that one of it's biggest proponents was and is Sen. Kennedy of Massachussetts.

The true purpose of NCLB is to get money into the pockets of various politiicians' allies and constituents.

Anyone who denies that is ALL ABOUT MONEY, and that both Dems and Repubs are responsible for it, simply hasn't been paying attention.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 02, 2007, 11:59:36 AM
MrUtley,

You are right on two fronts. First of all, the vouchers are used at for-profit schools which can be owned by friends of politicians. The voucher schools are exempt from the testing that puts the kids into the voucher schools in the first place, which means once the kids go to the voucher schools, we have no way to trace if the taxpayer is getting anything for the money.

Second, many schools have been harrassed into using "Reading First" an initiative of the Bush administration with his family members on the taking end of the taxes. The cost for Reading First programs is attrocious, and they are not well received by the teachers who use them.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 02, 2007, 03:07:07 PM
I think the conservatives have made in clear that they want public education to go away. They want education to  become a privilege of the elite, and to eliminate education of the poor beyond some feeble "basics".

Like most people I know, I'm a mutt. Parts of me are liberal other parts of me are conservative. I read the papers, watch the news and while I may have missed it, I doubt that most people who call themselves conservative want public education to go away. Even more so, I doubt that most people who call themselves conservative want education to become a priviledge of the elite.

I'm not sure why you think this. I think it's partially because you get caught up in the left-right, liberal-conservative muck. I'd love to know what information you based your thought on. I'd be surprised if it's anymore than the writings/thoughts of some extremist conservative that you read or heard.

It seems to me that students have a greater opportunity than ever before to go onto college. I'm certain I've read articles where Harvard, Yale and other prestigious schools have made it easier than ever for lower-income students to attend.

Have you ever spoken to a single human being who thinks that education should be for the elite?
I think anyone who would propose/think  that education is only for the elite is a jerk. Thankfully, I've never run into such a jerk. I doubt you have either.
 


The more I think about it,  your 'They want education to  become a privilege of the elite' statement is little more than  anti-conservative propaganda on your part. Based on nothing except that you wanted to make a negative comment about conservatives.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 02, 2007, 03:13:17 PM
David,

The first time I came across this thought was in literature put out by the Libertarians, an ultra-conservative group, who had stationed themselves at a DMV office and accosted everyone who tried to get their car licenses that year. The next year, someone had figured out how to keep them from bothering customers, and there was no more problem.

From time to time on the Times, someone would post with the idea that vouchers were the way to go, and that education was being wasted on the poor. I don't remember the handles anymore.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 02, 2007, 03:37:15 PM
My last post has to do more with education being the privledge of the elite than doing away with public education.

Depending on how ones opinion is interpreted, I believe many people think that public schools need to be revamped. While there would be a wide variety of opinions of what needs revamping, I believe the common goal would be to better education.

One could interpret Weezo's thoughts of mass internet home-schooling as someone who wishes to do away with public schools. I'm not saying this is the case - I don't think it is- but I can clearly see someone interpreting her  education of the future prediction that way.

I'm 42, in my lifetime I've never heard a campaign for any political office that hasn't said that we need to better our schools. Over and over again, we need to do better. Have we ever actually made our schools better? From listening to the campaigns, I would think not. Yet, just last week several posters were marveling at the resources children now have at to fingertips to obtain knowledge.

In my opinion, public education in some sort will always be necessary and should always be available. It has nothing to do with if a public, private or charter school is better.  That would depend on the individual school.  For me, it has to do with my unfortunate opinion that if public schools weren't available for children, there's too many parents who wouldn't take the necessary actions - for whatever reasons-  to make certain their  child  has the opportunity  to get an education.

If you doubt that ..... just look at how many children have no health insurance. In a perfect world, all children (adults too) would have health insurance. Yet they don't.  If you took  away public education, you'd see how many children don't get an education. Unfortunate, but in my opinion, true.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 02, 2007, 03:41:28 PM
Published on Friday, June 18, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
Scrooge & Marley, Inc. -- The True Conservative Agenda
by Thom Hartmann
 

Here's an interesting article about the agenda and the end of public education.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 02, 2007, 04:06:13 PM
David,

The first time I came across this thought was in literature put out by the Libertarians, an ultra-conservative group, who had stationed themselves at a DMV office and accosted everyone who tried to get their car licenses that year. The next year, someone had figured out how to keep them from bothering customers, and there was no more problem.

From time to time on the Times, someone would post with the idea that vouchers were the way to go, and that education was being wasted on the poor. I don't remember the handles anymore.




I'd say an ultra conservative group standing outside a DMV who was accosting people trying to get their licenses are extremists .... while I can't say so as strongly for the Times post, most posters , including myself are somewhat extreme. If for no other reason we wouldn't be on the forums -wanting to be heard- in the first place.

I'd say both examples that you used are insufficient evidence to make your claim  that it's clear conservatives think education should be for the elite only.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 02, 2007, 05:13:23 PM
David,

Yes, indeed, I was talking about the exteme conservatives. Most conservatives I know are strongly supportive of public education, at least for other children, when some prefer to send their children to private schools to improve their socialization opportunities.

You make an excellent point about my future scenario of online education replacing school buildings.

Realistically, online education can take place in a school building with bells and halls, or it can take place at home. Much depends on whether or not the home is suitably supervised. It is a option and will be perhaps for another twenty or more years. The main benefit of online education is that the resources can be as rich as the whole internet instead of confined to what a locality can afford.

I am a great fan of all the Star Trek series. I notice that when they show the children in school, all the children are working at consols, but there is a kindly teacher in attendence answering questions and directing courses of study. To the extent that sci-fi shows us what is in the future, I think it is a good example.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 02, 2007, 10:34:13 PM
NY Temps,

My hat is off to your hubs. I got a late start, and made it only 20 yrs. Yes, I know that the schools is more than education to some children, and it will remain so until we clean up the problems in children's lives from a social perspective.

That said, the main purpose of schools is to educate children, and when social problems interfere with education we are not doing the best we should for the children either socially or educationally. Yes, a teacher can report, and report, and report that a child is in an abusive situation, but if the social workers who recieve the report sit on their hands, the child not only continues to live with abuse, but they cannot get much education either. In one case I know of, one of the two brothers who had been abused for years and whose teachers had reported if for years, had to die at the hands of the father before social services would step in. This is outrageous!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 03, 2007, 08:03:07 AM
Anne, here is a link to Patrick Henry College: 
http://www.phc.edu/

The missions statement doesn't say anything about their purpose in creating a theocracy in America.  That would be too revealing, but from things I've read, that is their goal.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 03, 2007, 09:40:04 PM
A good day for students and educators

Today was a good day for some students and their teachers. Queen Elizabeth II flew into Richmond this afternoon and among those who spent time talking with her more or less privately, were several classes of students. At the state capital she met with a group of students that included an elementary, a middle and a high school from the Richmond area. Later, in the Mansion, she met with the whole 4th grade of a Petersburg school (4th grade is when Virginia students learn about their own state). Along her meet & greet route were many students who presented her with bouquets of flowers, and there were several school bands played for her before she left Richmond for Williamsburg tonight to view the exhibits for the 400th anniversary of the landing of Jamestown tomorrow. Saturday she will attend the Kentucky Derby and then spend the last day in this country at the White House.

NBC, CNN, and BBC are covering the event. Local NBC.com promised to have the coverage on their website: NBC12.com ... Tomorrow morning local coverage (and perhaps the webcast) will begin at 5am and continue all morning. In the afternoon the Queen is hosting a luncheon in Williamsburg, and that probably will not be televised.

Three of the remaining eight Virginia Native American tribes did a traditional dance for the Queen before presenting her with a gift in a large clamshell decorated with feathers. I don't know for sure what the gift was, perhaps some Virginia pearls, which were much larger in the 17th century and before, than after. The First Family gave her a gift of a rare first edition of one of Thomas Jefferson's books since the Queen is known to collect first editions of historic books.








Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 04, 2007, 06:04:12 AM
Thanks for sharing that, Anne.  I suppose the Queen's luncheon will  be held at the Williamsburg Inn?  We celebrated my parent's 50th wedding anniversary at the WI in 1989.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 04, 2007, 06:24:11 AM
weezo,

Queen Elizabeth II flew into Richmond this afternoon and among those who spent time talking with her more or less privately, were several classes of students.

How interesting that the Queen was within 100 miles of the White House and did not visit with the Clown-in-Chief.

The symbolism speaks volumes about her opinion of him!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 04, 2007, 10:06:59 AM
Cap,

Until I heard who whole trip itinerary yesterday. I too, through she was snubbing our clown-in-chief. But, she is going to end her visit at the white house. She will spend the weekend at the Kentucky Derby, and then go to the whitehouse where they will have a state dinner for her. I'm sure after all the real people contact in Virginia and Kentucky, the state dinner will be oh so boring!

Sam,

Last night's news says she is staying at the Williamsburg Inn, so I suspect that is where she will hold her luncheon. The Prince is going to skip the luncheon and go look at a ship in Norfolk, and rejoin her for the trip to Kentucky. The camera was trained so much on her face during her Walk About at Capital Square, that I could see both her traditional reserve, and her genuine smiles at the outpouring from the chldren. Sometimes, she stopped in the Walk Around and chatted with this person or that. One time she stopped and looked at something someon had with them, looked like a small book or framed picture, and spent some time talking with that person.

The prince did not seem quite as involved during the Walk Around. He chatted a lot with our First Lady, and shook some hands, but mostly stayed away from the adoring crowds for his lovely wife.

And, hat notwithstanding, she is a lovely women for being 81 years of age!
I've never been much of a fan of the monarcy. I shed no tears for Diana and was never interested in getting a Diana doll, but this grand lady interested me.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 04, 2007, 10:53:23 AM
Being an American commited to the U.S. Constitution and its tenets, I'm having a little trouble generating enthusiasm for the queen.

Considering what the English have done for the world, I am having even less enthusiasm.

 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 04, 2007, 10:56:02 AM
Here's something that might be helpful for you who are supposedly interested in education :

 http://www.refdesk.com/educate.html (http://www.refdesk.com/educate.html)


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 04, 2007, 01:03:39 PM
Cap...going to be plenty of symbolism to speak for the queen....in the form of a State Dinner. 

MrUtley, I find I can't care about the queen, either.  Here's a woman who's made millions simply by accident of birth.  So what.

"I say, Phil, why don't we hop over the pond and see how those locals are doing....it's been 400 years."



Well, actually she was here on the 350th Anniversary of Jamestown as well.  And I, fortunately or unfortunately, can remember her coronation!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 04, 2007, 03:27:59 PM
Nice stuff there, MrUtley.  Thanks for the link!

You're welcome!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 04, 2007, 03:31:21 PM
Cap...going to be plenty of symbolism to speak for the queen....in the form of a State Dinner. 

MrUtley, I find I can't care about the queen, either.  Here's a woman who's made millions simply by accident of birth.  So what.

"I say, Phil, why don't we hop over the pond and see how those locals are doing....it's been 400 years."



She hasn't made anything. She was given all here wealth by the people of England. She essentially has no real say in the government and is more welfare queen than ruling queen!

Cheerio.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 04, 2007, 04:59:30 PM
For those who still find the Queen's visit interesting, the Native Americans gave her an onyx brooch in that shell. Perhaps a picture of it will surface somewhere sometime.

Otherwise, here is some food for thought:

http://www.nytimes.com:80/2007/05/04/education/04laptop.html?th&emc=th

After reading the article, I suspect that the schools pulling the plug on the laptops are doing so because they, like Bush going into war, didn't know what they were doing before the did it.

It is totally irresponsible to set up a network for children and not include a firewall to keep them off of sites where they shouldn't be. Apparently, when they set up the firewall, they didn't even do a good job.

Another problem seems to be that they didn't integrate the Internet well enough into their instructional programs to keep the students busy with fruitful work on the Internet. The kids should be too busy doing instructional research on the web to have time to play.

I suspect there was insufficient training and ongoing support for the teachers to learn what and how they could use the Internet. Certainly software to "teach" reading and math is likely to be a poor investment. I have yet to see such software done well enough to keep kids from getting around the instructional intent. Software that is not developed with heavy input from experienced classroom teachers is not going to work well in practice. I've seen what kids do with the stuff.

BTW, for those of you who follow the development of My Own Books, you may be interested to know that I've been contacted by a budding entrepreneur who wants to print and bind the books on order and sell them through the schools. The entrepreneur is located in South Africa. I would feel that the History book series, which is my flagship section, would not be of interest to those on another continent with a very different history. Perhaps it is the other books that caught the eye. It is interesting how the Internet brings people online from diverse corners of the globe!



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 04, 2007, 05:42:49 PM
Laurie,

Student attire is a common problem. Most of the schools I worked at had dress codes that forbid shirts such as that shown in the picture. Showing midriffs, boys or girls, was forbidden, but I don't think they ever made a rule that could control the exposure of cleavage. Some excessively endowed girls would be hard pressed to keep themselves covered, and still comfortable in the Virginia heat. Nearby Petersburg is considering a school uniform. I prefer to see students learn to dress properly than to wear a uniform, but it seems to be at the urging of the parents who are probably as much concerned with the cost of a school wardrobe as with excessive skin or inappropriate shirt slogans.

But, the picture of the inappropriate dress does suggest the school is lax in enforcing good behavior and decency. So why would they be surprised that their outrageous students misuse the Internet?



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 04, 2007, 06:47:08 PM
Laurie,

Student attire is a common problem. Most of the schools I worked at had dress codes that forbid shirts such as that shown in the picture. Showing midriffs, boys or girls, was forbidden, but I don't think they ever made a rule that could control the exposure of cleavage. Some excessively endowed girls would be hard pressed to keep themselves covered, and still comfortable in the Virginia heat. Nearby Petersburg is considering a school uniform. I prefer to see students learn to dress properly than to wear a uniform, but it seems to be at the urging of the parents who are probably as much concerned with the cost of a school wardrobe as with excessive skin or inappropriate shirt slogans.

But, the picture of the inappropriate dress does suggest the school is lax in enforcing good behavior and decency. So why would they be surprised that their outrageous students misuse the Internet?



We had dress codes when I was in high school in the 1950s.  I remember the girl whose locker was next to mine got sent home because her skirt was too high.  It came to just over her knee.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 04, 2007, 09:14:54 PM
lhof,

[ Here's a woman who's made millions simply by accident of birth.  So what.


I agree that no one should "make millions simply by an accident of birth".

That's why estates over, say, $10M should be taxed at 100%.

Sauce for the goose..., right?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 05, 2007, 05:29:52 AM
lhoff,

Seems like the more money the government gets, the more it wastes.

Actually, I see just the opposite.  The higher health insurance premiums charged by insurance companies go, the more is wasted on drones and clones who have nothing whatsoever to do with the delivery of health care services.  Medicare, on the other hand, operates a superb program with minimal overhead.

Do you really believe that the Gates's children, or, for that matter any fat cat's children (Take Paris Hilton as the paradigm.) are entitled to unbelievable wealth that they had nothing to do in creating?

I most certainly don't.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 05, 2007, 06:19:26 AM
The Kennedy children are a good example of legacy kids who were not left with lots of money.  Both John and Carolyn were active members of their community and were involved in the working world.  I believe that is true for Bobby's kids as well.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 05, 2007, 07:52:23 AM
Laurie,

What you say has merit, to the extent that the legacy children have been brought up to give back to the community. But, Cap makes a good point in the fact that government does some things very well, such as medicare and social security. Perhaps the solution lies in allowing charitable deductions from the amount that is taxed on an estate. Unfortunately, some families may set up "charitable foundations" that do little good for the community and, in essence, merely support their non-productive children in luxury. Leona Helmsley comes to mind as one who would deliberately subvert the intent of the law, and Donald Trump. I don't know for sure if either have children.

What disappoints me with Gates is his decision to contribute his money primarily to non-public schools when the need is greatest in public schools. If he is worried about the money being siphoned off to grand salaries in central offices, he can specify that the money be used for specific things in the classroom, such as computers, teacher training to use computers, and such essentials as maps, globes, textbooks, etc.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 05, 2007, 12:39:49 PM
Part of the health care crisis in our country is related to the fact that people can't quite let go of the way things have always been done.

That could be said about almost all public policy changes, for sure.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 05, 2007, 01:00:33 PM
Do you really believe that the Gates's children, or, for that matter any fat cat's children (Take Paris Hilton as the paradigm.) are entitled to unbelievable wealth that they had nothing to do in creating?

I most certainly don't.


Wow, I don't even know what to say.

OK, lets try....

This Is America. People have a right to pass on their fortunes no matter how large or small to whomever they wish. The idea that America should tax such estates 100%, WOW !!! Totally, un-American. It many ways, flat out stealing. Imagine, Mr. & Mrs soand so amass a multi billion dollar fortune, they die. Cap wants the government to take all their money -tax 100%- instead of Mr. & Mrs so and so  leaving the money to whomever they wish. Ludicrous.

As lhoffman mentioned, thankfully many of America's great fortune makers are very generous with their funds. Using their money and minds to do what they can to make the world a better place. Aside from the opinion that I'm more confident having  Gate's and Buffett's people running the foundation ..... if I weren't..... I'd certainly have a lot of nerve/gall to tell them what to to with their money ..... and it would be criminal to force them to do anything different from what they wish with the money.

Yuck.


David



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 05, 2007, 01:07:35 PM
Taxing 100% of the assets isn't the same as taking 100% of the assets.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 05, 2007, 01:55:48 PM
Most of those who have that kind of estate have avoided paying any taxes.  They can afford to hire the financial wizards who help create wealth by avoiding paying taxes.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 05, 2007, 07:19:49 PM
Laurie,

Remember Leona Helmsley at her trial declaring that wealthy people like her weren't supposed to pay taxes. Little people should pay taxes, she said. That's you and me! Then, to add insult to injury, she paid her maid to serve her "community service" work which she got in lieu of jail time. Until she got caught. She should have received the jail time like Martha Stewart did!

I have worked in both the private and the public sectors in different times of my life, and observed there's not a dimes worth of difference in the approach to waste. I am totally unsympathetic to the wage differentials between CEOs in the 70's at 42 times the average wage of workers, to the present, when it is more than 400 times the average wage of their workers. This, to me, symbolizes a huge waste of capital. The wage differential between big shots and workers is not nearly so great as in the public sector. If nothing else, this shows that your tax money is working more efficiently than your investment dollars.







Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 05, 2007, 08:37:37 PM
Saminnh...I guess I don't buy that these people avoid paying any taxes.  The taxes payments I've seen made public: The Bushes, Clintons, Kerrys, seems to pay around the top tax level...which I believe is 36%.  But I'm certain that there are many out there with millions who pay a smaller percent of their income to taxes than I do. 

I'm torn on whether tax breaks are fair.  It seems that if these people are investing in the economy then that is as good as paying taxes.  American business needs a lot of backers to make it run.  And private funding for energy is currently higher than government funding.  Endowments and grants have to come from somewhere.  On the other hand, I wish I had the opportunity to use my dollars as I choose.  I guess the heart of it for me is that I don't believe the goverment is as good at fiscal management as many of these people are. 

Much of American business is owned by the common people throught their retirement plans and 401Ks.   So, in a way, we are all involved, but most of us pay our fair share of taxes.  Most of us don't have off shore accounts to hid our assets and avoid paying our share.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 05, 2007, 08:51:02 PM
david,

This Is America. People have a right to pass on their fortunes no matter how large or small to whomever they wish. The idea that America should tax such estates 100%, WOW !!! Totally, un-American.

That's about the silliest thing I have ever read from anyone who is not a flaming rightwinger.

Actually, it is about the MOST American thing there is.

We constantly hear that it is un-American for some Americans to have the "unearned, unmerited" advantage of race in America.

If that be true, let's take that to its logical conclusion and eliminate once and for all the "unearned, unmerited" advantage of inherited wealth.

If Donald Trump had not had the unearned, unmerited advantage of the $300M he inherited from his old man, do you really think he would be where is is today.

The only way one can favor the "unearned, unmerited" advantage of inherited wealth is to also favor racial preferences.

Let's put everyone at the same starting line.

Or, Mr. Anti-racist, do you believe that being against affirmative action only applies to RACE?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 06, 2007, 08:28:09 AM
Cap...Speaking of retirement accounts, I hope you get a chance to watch that Enron movie.  It's one of those movies you love and loathe at the same time.

I've added it to my netflex queue.  Thanks for the suggestion.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 07, 2007, 11:37:59 AM
A little food for thought for those into the "Those who can, do; those who can't teach" mindset:

Have you heard about the  next planned "Survivor" show?
Three businessmen and three  businesswomen will be dropped in an elementary
school classroom for 1  school year.  Each business person will be provided
with a copy of  his/her school district's curriculum, and a class of 28 - 32
students.
Each class will have a  minimum of five learning-disabled children, three
with A.D.D., one gifted  child, and two who speak limited English. Three
students will be labeled  with severe behavior problems.

Each business person must  complete lesson plans at least 3 days in advance,
with annotations for  curriculum objectives and modify, organize, or create
their materials  accordingly. They will be required to teach students,
handle misconduct,  implement technology, document attendance, write
referrals, correct  homework, make bulletin boards, compute grades, complete
report cards,  document benchmarks, communicate with parents, and arrange
parent  conferences. They must also stand in their doorway between class
changes  to monitor the hallways.  In addition, they will complete fire
drills, tornado drills, and [Code Red] drills for shooting attacks each
month.

They must attend workshops,  faculty meetings,and attend curriculum
development meetings.They must also  tutor students who are behind and
strive to get their 2 non-English  speaking children proficient enough to
take the Terra Nova and PSSA tests.   If they are sick or having a bad day
they must not let it  show.

Each day they must  incorporate reading, writing, math, science, and social
studies into the  program. They must maintain discipline and provide an
educationally  stimulating environment to motivate students at all times..
If all  students do not wish to cooperate, work, or learn, the teacher will
be  held responsible.

The business people will  only have access to the public golf course on the
weekends, but with their  new salary, they may not be able to afford it.
There will be no access to  vendors who want to take them out to lunch, and
lunch will be limited to  thirty minutes, which is not counted as part of
their work day. The  business people will be permitted to use a student
restroom, as long as  another survival candidate can supervise their class.
If the copier is  operable, they may make copies of  necessary materials
before, or  after, school. However, they cannot surpass their monthly limit
of copies.   The business people must continually advance their education,
at  their expense, and on their own time. The winner of this Season of
Survivor will be allowed to return to their job.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 07, 2007, 11:49:13 AM
Great plan.  They won't last a year, though.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 07, 2007, 12:52:13 PM
Using Leon Helmsley to represent the average point of view of a person of wealth is on a par with Ronald Reagan saying that people on welfare were "queens".

If I earn a lot of dough in my lifetime, it is my property, and the Constitution is supposed to allow me to protect my property. It is supposed to allow me to determine what happens to my property--and I can pretty much do with that what I wish to do. Estate taxes are patently unfair, since the essentially tax assets that have already been taxed. The best way to give away your money to your children is over time and while you're alive. You are allowed to give a certain amount each year to them tax-free...

The notion that everyone should start in the same place, as I think someone posited it here, is as ridiculous as the notion that "all men are created equal". This essentially ignores nature as part of the "equation".



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 07, 2007, 12:53:30 PM
And which parent to=do you think will be most difficult to deal with?

The "gifted" one's, of course.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 07, 2007, 01:12:51 PM
Garrick,
The notion that everyone should start in the same place, as I think someone posited it here, is as ridiculous as the notion that "all men are created equal". This essentially ignores nature as part of the "equation".


OK, you favor the unearned, unmerited advantage of inherited wealth, and I favor the equally unearned, unmerited advantage of race.

So mush for all the folks from Thomas Jeffferson to Ward Connerly.

I suppose that makes us equal partners in affirmative action.

BTW, after you die, it's no longer YOUR money.  If you doubt that, try spending some!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 07, 2007, 01:25:28 PM
Legacy affirmative action gives us people like George Bush. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 07, 2007, 01:32:20 PM
OK, you favor the unearned, unmerited advantage of inherited wealth, and I favor the equally unearned, unmerited advantage of race.

So mush for all the folks from Thomas Jeffferson to Ward Connerly.

I suppose that makes us equal partners in affirmative action.

BTW, after you die, it's no longer YOUR money.  If you doubt that, try spending some!

The law is usually pretty clear as to how one's property may be distributed after one's death, and one has a right to determine that for oneself. Having children of my own, and being a person of fair means, and having brought my children into the world and raised them to be good and proper citizens, I am not willing to give up my right to continue to give freely to them and promote their welfare through whatever means are at my disposal at the time of my death. Why would you oppose such a situation? Should you choose to leave your wealth to the state at the end of your time on earth, and not to your children, that is your choice to make, but don't attempt to limit my choices.

By virtue of your statement that you favor the "advantage of race", in many people's minds that would make you a racist.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 07, 2007, 01:52:48 PM
For your enlightenment:

Chocolate or flowers? What kind of flowers? Maybe a plant...




In the past, these have been the most profound questions for many of us around Mother's Day. And now, thanks to some wonderful friends, our eyes have been opened. The original Mother's Day was not conceived to sell us stuff we don't need, it was a day started by mothers to bring warfare to an end!

Julia Ward Howe, the author of the Battle Hymn of the Republic, wrote the original Mother's Day Proclamation in 1870 calling upon the women of the world to unite for peace. She had just witnessed the carnage of the American Civil War and the start of the Franco-Prussian War.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 07, 2007, 01:55:40 PM
So, casket flags folded neatly by Marines don't make a nice Mother's Day gift.

I'll keep it in mind.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 07, 2007, 03:04:25 PM
So, casket flags folded neatly by Marines don't make a nice Mother's Day gift.

I'll keep it in mind.

That is a gift no parent would want.  Having received one myself, I can attest to that.  I would much rather have my son with me today, than the flag I received at the time of his death 21 years ago.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 07, 2007, 03:13:12 PM
That is a gift no parent would want.  Having received one myself, I can attest to that.  I would much rather have my son with me today, than the flag I received at the time of his death 21 years ago.

Wow. So many, myself included,  come and express their opinions` like we're some sort of experts. You have lived what people talk about. To me, your son is a hero. He gave his life so American's can live the lives they lead. Nothing we agree or disgaree on will ever change that. Twenty One years later, my condolences to you and your family.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 07, 2007, 03:15:03 PM
That is a gift no parent would want.  Having received one myself, I can attest to that.  I would much rather have my son with me today, than the flag I received at the time of his death 21 years ago.

Wow. So many, myself included,  come and express their opinions` like we're some sort of experts. You have lived what people talk about. To me, your son is a hero. He gave his life so American's can live the lives they lead. Nothing we agree or disgaree on will ever change that. Twenty One years later, my condolences to you and your family.

David

Thank you, David.  I appreciate that.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 07, 2007, 03:47:03 PM
Ah, I finally have a reason to watch that Survival mess! Will they be doing shows of these businesspeople in the classrooms? Will the camera pan to the ceiling when the businessperson trips over too many chairs in the room? Will the camera show the student watching the birds out the window when the businessperson is showing how subtraction is done?

I tend to agree that the parent/s of the gifted child will be the most difficult to deal with. For some reason, the teacher telling the parent of a gifted child that she/he is focusing on bringing in the sheep who stray below the passing line, brings about a non-photo op situation! And, the parents of the disruptive students will swear up and down their child didn't do it, whatever it is, and the proof is that the child never lies! All the other children are lying!

But, in truth, some, maybe only one, of the businesspersons may find that they have a gift in teaching, and when they close out the outside world and sit down with their wonderfully diverse class, they have some of the happiest moments of their life. If anyone takes a Kindergarten class, and meet the children on the first day, who show a mix of hope and terror for their new station in life, and takes each and every student into their hearts, they will not much mind missing out on the take-home, and spending what usually goes in the IRA on their students instead.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 07, 2007, 03:54:50 PM
We constantly hear that it is un-American for some Americans to have the "unearned, unmerited" advantage of race in America.

Who do we constantly hear saying this? Also, to my understanding we were talking about you thinking that estates over $10,000,000 should be taxed 100%. What this has to do with race, I'm not sure. I'm guessing you would tax the Black billionaire and the White billionaire the same.  I wonder what Oprah would think about your plan.

Cap, in my desire and 100% disagreement with your idea, I said it was un-American. Poor choice of words on my part. As a American, when it comes to how things should be taxed, its American for you to think what you wish. I'll say this, if you amassesed a multi million dollar fortune, I doubt you be as gung-ho for your idea as you are now. If you chose to gice the bulk to charity, good for you....BUT, imagine if you didn't: "OK Cap, do what you want with the $10,000,000, the rest is ours." - Thanks, The Government

Cap, part of the American dream, for many THE American dream is about making it big, striking it rich. It can be argued that this is shallow, but it is what it is, and it is a big part of what has made America what it is today. Hey, I like the world you want. People sharing, using their funds for betterment. However, you can't demand it. Your plan would be a major morale buster to the idea/dream  of building a fortune. You take away that incentive .... woo, you're taking away alot.


Or, Mr. Anti-racist,

I'm not sure how you're saying it, but I sense disdain. Is there something wrong with wanting to spread an opposite to racism? Right wing, left wing, liberal, conservative .... I can't imagine understanding  any excuse from any of these ideologies of having a problem with that.  Would you rather I paste swastickas and spew rude racist remarks on the boards. That very well may entertain you more.



do you believe that being against affirmative action only applies to RACE?

Affirmative action at best is an idea with good intentions, that can't be right. In a country who's ideology is freedom, liberty and justice for all, it CAN'T BE RIGHT to have programs with advantages based on race. It goes back to the old adage, 'two wrongs don't make a right'. I don't know what the answers are, but purposely  unfair programs, showing favortism based on race,  isn't one of them.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 07, 2007, 04:02:43 PM
MrUtley,

As I understand it, Cap's desire to tax 100% of assets after death refers to assets in excess of $10million. That would just put a cap on what your children can inherit. And, as you say, the best way is to give your children their inheritance while you are still alive to see how they enjoy it.

I would also like to suggest that in addition, you remember those who helped you make that fortune. If you are a businessman, your "fortune" came about because of the hard work and continued loyalty of your employees. Again, it is better to share your fortune with them while you are alive and can see how they enjoy it, than to wait and let them receive it in the twilight of their lives.

No one amasses a fortune without the efforts of others, and therefore, it is rather selfish not to return that fortune to others after you no longer need it. You simply cannot take it with you.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 07, 2007, 04:09:31 PM
MrUtley,

As I understand it, Cap's desire to tax 100% of assets after death refers to assets in excess of $10million. That would just put a cap on what your children can inherit. And, as you say, the best way is to give your children their inheritance while you are still alive to see how they enjoy it.

I would also like to suggest that in addition, you remember those who helped you make that fortune. If you are a businessman, your "fortune" came about because of the hard work and continued loyalty of your employees. Again, it is better to share your fortune with them while you are alive and can see how they enjoy it, than to wait and let them receive it in the twilight of their lives.

No one amasses a fortune without the efforts of others, and therefore, it is rather selfish not to return that fortune to others after you no longer need it. You simply cannot take it with you.


 

A 100% tax doesn't take all of the estate.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 07, 2007, 04:16:29 PM
Sam,

I could be wrong but I think that Cap wants the government to take 100% of the estate after the first $10,000,000. Not tax 100% of the assets.  As you mentioned they are two different things.

Cap, can you clarify your idea for us? - Thanks, David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 07, 2007, 05:07:34 PM
It's not about rich or poor, for me. If you want to just take things away from people because they happen to have more than you, that's not about equity. It's about jealousy.

Equity and fairness to me isn't when everything gets the same thing, but when everyone gets what they deserve. If the wealth was created for the family, the family gets to enjoy the wealth. It is not encumbent upon them to make up for the situations of other families.

I would prefer we create incentives for the well-to-do to give their assets to others, rather than take them forcibly and redistribute them, as has been put forth.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 07, 2007, 06:54:22 PM
There's something, too, that smacks of condescension or pity.  In many cases, a good kick in the butt is found to be far more benificial that pity.

Sometimes a job working in a minimal paying and rewarding job can give one the incentive to do better.  I remember working in a factory the summer I graduated from college before I started teaching school.  I was grateful to have the "summer job", but I was even more grateful to have my college diploma.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 07, 2007, 08:01:15 PM
I went to a lecture on personal finance a number of years ago. The lecturer said, "If you want to be rich, study poor people. Then, don't do what they do."

Of course, it's an oversimplification, but it makes a point.

This country has a lot of resources, and many people do need a hand up. But some folks are only looking for a hand out. The trouble is trying to distinguish one from the other.

As an example, whenever someone dies tragically in the city, the usual things happen. Some shake their heads and say how bad it all is, and what a sweet kind person it was who just was killed. Others immediately say, "The mayor should have done something to prevent this" or "The City don't care about us poor folk".

That turns me off. People that feel helpless are helpless.

And don't lecture me on poor people. I've been poor, I've been hungry, I've had times when I was unemployed. And I've worked with poor people my whole life. Some work hard to improve their lot and do their best to see that their children can do better than they did. Others simply don't care, or they just want to know what your going to do for them.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 07, 2007, 09:10:23 PM
garrick,
Equity and fairness to me isn't when everything gets the same thing, but when everyone gets what they deserve. If the wealth was created for the family, the family gets to enjoy the wealth. It is not encumbent upon them to make up for the situations of other families.

Now there's a page out of the Gordon Gecko songbook.  I have mine, sucker, YOYO.
Under that theory, John Harvard would have never donated his library, Smithson his fortune, or King his life.
I weep for our country when I think of what the hateful Ronald RAYgun did to it.
Whatever happened to, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask instead what you can do for your country."


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 07, 2007, 10:58:56 PM
lhoff,

But Cap,  working hard at making a living does give back to the country.  People who earn more money have more money to be taxed.

Agreed.  No problem there, but it begs the question of why her/his heirs, those who did not "work hard at making a living", should have the unearned, unmerited advantage of inherited wealth.

Remember that the first $10M can be devised by will.

That's quite a leg up in a country which promotes legal equality.

Remember also that many of those who "work hard at making a living" are the lowest paid. 

Read Barbara Ehrenreich's book.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 07, 2007, 11:05:09 PM
garrick,
Equity and fairness to me isn't when everything gets the same thing, but when everyone gets what they deserve. If the wealth was created for the family, the family gets to enjoy the wealth. It is not encumbent upon them to make up for the situations of other families.

Now there's a page out of the Gordon Gecko songbook.  I have mine, sucker, YOYO.
Under that theory, John Harvard would have never donated his library, Smithson his fortune, or King his life.
I weep for our country when I think of what the hateful Ronald RAYgun did to it.
Whatever happened to, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask instead what you can do for your country."

That has nothing to do with estate redistribution. Don't distort the pithy argument you are attempting to make. Really what you are attempting to do is to have the government set limits on what individuals can accumulate.

Whatever happened to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"? You are attempting to mandate altruism. If you know anything about human nature, it can't be done.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 07, 2007, 11:09:36 PM
 
That's quite a leg up in a country which promotes legal equality.

The equality that is promoted is about being treated equally under the law, not promoting that everyone gets an equal slice of the economic pie.

Do you live in America? Because it doesn't sound like it, when I read your posts.

 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 08, 2007, 04:19:00 AM
(1)  Thought.

Example:  Does a child laborer employed 12-14 hours per day work harder than Bill Gates?

All things being relative, IMO, yes.

That’s not to discredit Mr. Gates’ contributions, or his efforts, but I don’t think money “earned” equates with how much labor is expended.

It more reflects values.

(2)  Thought.

How much of the world’s wealth is concentrated in what percentage of the world’s population?  And where?

Does that show us how capitalism, as it presently exists, inevitably pays back, and sufficiently - into the general population? 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 08, 2007, 04:43:47 AM
10 million sounds quite generous.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 08, 2007, 06:00:21 AM
Garrick,
Don't distort the pithy argument you are attempting to make. Really what you are attempting to do is to have the government set limits on what individuals can accumulate.


First of all, just exactly what is wrong with the government setting limits on what individuals may accumulate?
As Scripture tells us, "The love of money is the root of all evil."

Second, even accepting the above as true, I have no problem with some fat cats accumulating and spending whatever they can accumulate during their lifetimes.

My problem is with giving more than $10M to undeserving heirs who had no hand in its accumulation.

I prefer the examples of Carnegie and Gates, both of whom gave or are giving away vast percentages of their wealth for the betterment of society.

The Trumps, Lays, Nacchios, and Kozlowskis of this world sicken decent Americans.

Since you have no problem with some American enjoying the unearned, unmerited benefit of inherited wealth, how do you feel about other Americans having the equally unearned, unmerited benefit of racial preference?

Oh, yes, and BTW, my family have been US citizens for 3 centuries now.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 08, 2007, 06:28:23 AM
I agree with Cap except when it comes to the family farm.  But new limits should protect the family farm.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 08, 2007, 06:53:46 AM
First of all, just exactly what is wrong with the government setting limits on what individuals may accumulate?
As Scripture tells us, "The love of money is the root of all evil."

Second, even accepting the above as true, I have no problem with some fat cats accumulating and spending whatever they can accumulate during their lifetimes.

My problem is with giving more than $10M to undeserving heirs who had no hand in its accumulation.

I prefer the examples of Carnegie and Gates, both of whom gave or are giving away vast percentages of their wealth for the betterment of society.

The Trumps, Lays, Nacchios, and Kozlowskis of this world sicken decent Americans.

Since you have no problem with some American enjoying the unearned, unmerited benefit of inherited wealth, how do you feel about other Americans having the equally unearned, unmerited benefit of racial preference?

Oh, yes, and BTW, my family have been US citizens for 3 centuries now.


A: What's wrong with the government setting limits on accumulation is that it goes against the Constitituion, which is what Americans  agree to live by.
 
B: "the Scripture" is not the law for all Americans.

C: The phrases, "unearned, unmerited benefit of inherited wealth" is your spin, and not my words.

D: Your "problem" with inherited wealth is that you presume that others deserve it more than the family members of the private citizens who earned it. You have done nothing to show that that is the case.

E: Race has nothing to do with this conversation, so don't introduce it.

F:  You cannot cluster all rich people under the same banner as Trump, et alia. To do so reflects prejudice and discriminates merely on the basis of income.

Gee,  that's wonderful that your family has been here for so long, but you haven't explained what that has to do with this subject. It does remind me of the American Indian at a cocktail party, who when told by an attendee, "My famliy came over on the Mayflower", remarked: "Don't worry. We can't all be born here."

I await arguments for your point of view that are detailed and sensible, rational and reasonable, and not rooted merely in your subjective disregard for what others may have in their bank accounts.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 08, 2007, 08:25:01 AM

Do you live in America? Because it doesn't sound like it, when I read your posts.


Was your question answered?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 08, 2007, 08:31:14 AM
I agree with Cap except when it comes to the family farm.  But new limits should protect the family farm.

I recently read someone assert that the world is controlled by several family farms.  That we are in Iraq because of some of them.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 08, 2007, 08:35:16 AM

I await arguments for your point of view that are detailed and sensible, rational and reasonable, and not rooted merely in your subjective disregard for what others may have in their bank accounts.

We're sorry, Mr. Utley, but you cannot have more than 10 million dollars.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 08, 2007, 09:51:09 AM

I await arguments for your point of view that are detailed and sensible, rational and reasonable, and not rooted merely in your subjective disregard for what others may have in their bank accounts.

We're sorry, Mr. Utley, but you cannot have more than 10 million dollars.

Return with an argument based in reason and not in emotion, inky!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 08, 2007, 10:11:29 AM
I’m pulling your leg a bit.  My point is to challenge you to consider the subjectivity of your own.  And, I am considering another perspective myself.

I’m more interested in discussion.  Not necessarily debating.  Though you are certainly free to fight for one point of view yourself.

BTW, I don’t like being called “inky.”  I take it you are a courteous participant and don’t resort to name-calling.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 08, 2007, 10:27:07 AM
I’m pulling your leg a bit.  My point is to challenge you to consider the subjectivity of your own.  And, I am considering another perspective myself.

I’m more interested in discussion.  Not necessarily debating.  Though you are certainly free to fight for one point of view yourself.

BTW, I don’t like being called “inky.”  I take it you are a courteous participant and don’t resort to name-calling.

No disrespect intended. Would "dove" be okay. I like nicknames. no rational reason for that either.)))


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 08, 2007, 10:28:43 AM
MrUtley,

Please tell me where in the constitution does it say that heirs to a fortune are more entitled to it than the government? Please tell me where in the constitution it decares that we cannot put a "cap" on accumulated wealth?

I really do not think that putting a cap on inherited wealth constitutes a cap on someone's earning or achievements during their lifetime. The Inheritance Tax does not limit anything to the person making the money, it just takes some to share with the rest of the nation when they pass to their ultimate reward.

And, I am in agreement with those who state that people who work for the lowest wages are often the ones who work the hardest in their lives.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 08, 2007, 10:31:17 AM
No disrespect intended. Would "dove" be okay. I like nicknames. no rational reason for that either.)))

No offense taken then. :)  Dove, Inca, or Incadove is fine.  Thank you.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 08, 2007, 01:15:18 PM
MrUtley,

Please tell me where in the constitution does it say that heirs to a fortune are more entitled to it than the government? Please tell me where in the constitution it decares that we cannot put a "cap" on accumulated wealth?

I really do not think that putting a cap on inherited wealth constitutes a cap on someone's earning or achievements during their lifetime. The Inheritance Tax does not limit anything to the person making the money, it just takes some to share with the rest of the nation when they pass to their ultimate reward.

And, I am in agreement with those who state that people who work for the lowest wages are often the ones who work the hardest in their lives.

Seems to me to violate the fourth amendment. Beyond that, it's just a stupid concept. Why do you wish to put limits on people's dreams? Because you didn't fulfill your own? As far as "unearned, unmerited" wealth, I suppose that you and cap are opposed to state lotteries?

I never understood why anyone would say that someone has too much, or is paid too much for such-and-such a job? How do you know? What a person is usually saying, when they do that, is: "I don't have enough."



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 08, 2007, 02:22:19 PM
I include being able to provide for your family long after you're gone as part the American Dream...

you don't have to, of course.

Sorry to hear about the budget crisis, but you live in a time when the politics of the moment is to try to solve problems without paying for them, or by deferring paying for them.

I always equate paying for education as like those old commercials for Fram oil filters, where the mechanic used to say, "See this engine? It's going to cost this guy about 850 bucks for me to repair it. But he could have avoided that by regularly changing his oil and using Fram oil filters....It's up to you. (holding up the Fram oil filter.) You can pay me now, or (gesturing toward the broken engine) pay me later."

That's how most people are about funding education. They're like the guy who needs the repair. If you aren't willing to pay for education, then you will pay for it in a miriad of ways, and you'll pay much, much, much more to build jails, pay for errors wracked up by people who can't read or compute or think critically or analyze.

Pay me now, or pay me later.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 08, 2007, 05:46:31 PM
In Virginia, we also do not have school taxes collected from the real estate taxes. Property taxes go into the general fund for the county or city, and the jurisdiction then gives what they will to the school boards to pay for education. There is no direct connection between property taxes and education. Virginia has a pretty good education system. My sons were educated in Virginia, and my teaching experience was in Virginia. I am still, in retirement, very supportive of education and in particular, Virginia education. The first thing I did after retiring, was to complete the web site I started on Famous Americans so that it included all the Famous Americans in the Virginia curriculum, then moved on to other Famous Americans that caught my attention.






Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 09, 2007, 02:13:41 AM
lhoff,

Cap, I wonder about the $10,000,000 figure.  If you are opposed to people enjoying unearned wealth, why not $9,000,000, or eight, or seven?  And who is to decide just how much unearned wealth Americans are entitled to?  If you are opposed to heirs enjoying unearned wealth, even $1 is too much.


In theory, you are correct, but one must be practical and recognize the reality that taxing the entire estate at 100% would never pass the Congress.

BTW, Alyssa Rosenblum, whom I met many times, was nothing more than a SHONDA for the rich.

Too bad that her reality was so very different from her screeds.

Let's see now - Alyssa, Frank, and Nate - now there was a great threesome.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 09, 2007, 06:53:54 AM
BTW, Alyssa Rosenblum, whom I met many times, was nothing more than a SHONDA for the rich.

Too bad that her reality was so very different from her screeds.


Shonda is a verb, not a noun, and  I'll bet Alyssa never figured you for being such a yenta!

Still waiting you to make the case for the government seizure of assets from law-abiding citizens that you are advocating.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 09, 2007, 12:42:46 PM
lhoff,

But who are Allissa, Frank and Nate?

Alyssa Rosenblum was "Ayn Rand", Frank was her marriage partner, and Nate was Nathaniel Branden, her (their) very own boy toy.

Abby Hoffman called the Chicago Seven Judge, Julius Hoffman, "Shonda for the Goyim!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 09, 2007, 01:12:42 PM
Until this year, only pregnant women 35 and older were routinely tested to see if their fetuses had the extra chromosome that causes Down syndrome. As a result many couples were given the diagnosis only at birth. But under a new recommendation from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, doctors have begun to offer a new, safer screening procedure to all pregnant women, regardless of age.

About 90 percent of pregnant women who are given a Down syndrome diagnosis have chosen to have an abortion.


Changing the topic, but is this type of information, that you might be carrying a child with a genetic defect, be a reason to choose abortion?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 09, 2007, 01:32:33 PM
Until this year, only pregnant women 35 and older were routinely tested to see if their fetuses had the extra chromosome that causes Down syndrome. As a result many couples were given the diagnosis only at birth. But under a new recommendation from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, doctors have begun to offer a new, safer screening procedure to all pregnant women, regardless of age.

About 90 percent of pregnant women who are given a Down syndrome diagnosis have chosen to have an abortion.


Changing the topic, but is this type of information, that you might be carrying a child with a genetic defect, be a reason to choose abortion?


And this has to do with "education", how????


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 09, 2007, 01:45:35 PM
Until this year, only pregnant women 35 and older were routinely tested to see if their fetuses had the extra chromosome that causes Down syndrome. As a result many couples were given the diagnosis only at birth. But under a new recommendation from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, doctors have begun to offer a new, safer screening procedure to all pregnant women, regardless of age.

About 90 percent of pregnant women who are given a Down syndrome diagnosis have chosen to have an abortion.


Changing the topic, but is this type of information, that you might be carrying a child with a genetic defect, be a reason to choose abortion?


And this has to do with "education", how????

Education of the those with Down Syndrome, knowing that you might have a child with this birth defect, has much to do with education.  That you don't understand says a lot about you, Mr. Nanny.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 09, 2007, 02:23:31 PM
Here's a start on the "Ayn Rand" bio:
http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/bio/biofaq.html


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 09, 2007, 03:07:43 PM
Laurie,

The decision to abort a child that will be difficult to raise and educate and may never be able to live an independent life, is a very serious one. Down's Syndrome children are a joy to know and work with, but in adulthood, especially if the parents are up in age and unable to provide for a lifetime of support, the person becomes a community problem. The difference betwen a severely autistic child and a Down's Syndrom child is that the DS child is very often a true joy to know. The autistic child is very often a challenge to anyone, parent or professional, who works with him/her. I see my sister Chris aging before her time, and worrying what will happen to Andrew if she and David succumb to the never-ending stress of raising him, and are not there to at least keep a roof over his head in adulthood. Having an autistic child has cost both Chris and David their careers and their health. Yet, for all the problems, Chris still says, if she knew what was ahead, she would not have wanted to abort. For one thing, Andrew's twin is a very young man with no problems other than those caused by having to grow up in a household with two autistic brothers. I don't think you can abort only one of a set of twins.

Considering the fact that people having children late in life tend to be more financially stable (unless it is the late last child caused by a mistake in birthcontrol at the onset of menopause), there is the possibility that the parents can make provisions for the support and maintenance of the Down's Syndrome child when they get too old to do it themselves.

Three years ago there was a very outgoing Down's Syndrom girl at Nottoway. She was in her senior year, and to the delight of those who worked with her, she was elected by the student body to be one of the Homecoming Princesses. There she sat, all dressed up with a tiara, on the float that plied its way through both towns in the county to celebrate Home Coming. I believe she was the first special ed girl ever elected in Nottoway to that honor!



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 09, 2007, 03:42:50 PM
I have a sister-in-law with D/S.  She is in her late 40s and lives with one of my former wife's daughters (who is her aunt).  She is a joy; has a great sense of humor, has worked at MacDonalds and Burger King, and enjoys her simple life to the fullest.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 09, 2007, 05:11:46 PM
In High Society, Joseph Califano points out that a child who reaches twenty-one without smoking, using illegal drugs, or abusing alcohol is virtually certain never to do so-and chronicles the fearful cost in personal pain and public dollars of our nation's failure to act on this truth.

Califano shows how substance abuse is the culprit in violent and property crime, soaring Medicare and Medicaid costs, family breakup, domestic violence, the spread of AIDS, teen pregnancy, poverty, and low productivity. He takes on alcohol and tobacco interests that buy political protection with campaign contributions and seed a culture of substance abuse among our nation's children and teens. He explains the importance of parent power, proposes revolutionary changes in prevention, treatment, and criminal justice, and calls upon every individual and institution to confront this plague that has maimed and killed more Americans than all our wars, natural catastrophes, and traffic accidents combined.



Has anyone read this book?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 09, 2007, 05:47:22 PM
Quote
Shonda is a verb, not a noun

Not according to Bubby  (http://www.bubbygram.com/yiddishglossary.htm):
 
Shondah: (rhymes with Honda) a shame, a pity. A "shonda for the goyim" means to do something shameful, publicly witnessed by non-Jews, thus bringing shame upon Jews in general (because, the theory goes, we are all held accountable for the worst deeds of the worst of us.) Also, "Such a smart girl like that. It's a shonda she's such a meiskeit (physically unattractive person)."

When I was about thirteen, I marched with a student peace organization when Nixon drove through our communities – we whitened our faces, blackened our eyes to hollows, wore sheets, some of us carrying dolls splattered in red paint – we were the ghosts of the dead Vietnamese, including women who lost their babies.  We marched in single procession, reared up by a student in American army uniform shouldering a weapon, and another one beating a solumn drum.

I overheard some elderly women lowering their voices to each other as we walked by, starring straight ahead:  “Such pretty girls.  What a shame what they did to their faces.”



Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 09, 2007, 05:56:39 PM
There was film on Ayn Rand's life, based on a book by Branden's former wife.  It painted a chilling picture of Rand, personality wise.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 09, 2007, 06:07:46 PM
A new study supposedly show that students born in the months May through April do poorer on tests than children born in other months. Below please find link to article for if interested. - David


http://www.nypost.com/seven/05092007/news/nationalnews/birth_month_shock_nationalnews_cathy_burke.htm


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 09, 2007, 06:11:27 PM
I have a sister-in-law with D/S.  She is in her late 40s and lives with one of my former wife's daughters (who is her aunt).  She is a joy; has a great sense of humor, has worked at MacDonalds and Burger King, and enjoys her simple life to the fullest.

I've worked with D/S adults and have seen what you describe, as well as the consequences of our former institutionalized system (coming out of those prisons, compared to, say, those educated in loving homes).  D/S adults have more potential than we sometimes recognize.  Any human being, handicapped or not, under the right environmental learning conditions can a rewarding life, relative to their abilities.

I've also seen how challenging it can be for families, especially if there are only one or two persons - and older themselves.

I think abortion is a personal choice, regardless.  For some people, they see no reason why a D/S diagnosis would alter their decision to follow through.  For others, that perspective is unfathomable, and they'd opt differently.  But I don't their reasoning is any of our business.

I do think we need to challenge our view, as a society, that anyone with a handicapp is a burden.  I remember speaking to someone who grew up in a small European village.  They asserted that handicapped persons are seen as blessings, and taken care of by everyone.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 09, 2007, 06:15:19 PM
I think the real burden to our society are persons like George Bush who do so much damage to so many lives.  When they could be doing so much good.

I chat with a D/S person at one my supermarkets when she helps me take groceries to my car.  I think people sometimes have no idea how much these simple jobs mean to handicapped persons who want to belong.  She is a lovely person and in no way a burden like our King G.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 09, 2007, 06:29:11 PM
I have a sister-in-law with D/S.  She is in her late 40s and lives with one of my former wife's daughters (who is her aunt).  She is a joy; has a great sense of humor, has worked at MacDonalds and Burger King, and enjoys her simple life to the fullest.

I've worked with D/S adults and have seen what you describe, as well as the consequences of our former institutionalized system (coming out of those prisons, compared to, say, those educated in loving homes).  D/S adults have more potential than we sometimes recognize.  Any human being, handicapped or not, under the right environmental learning conditions can a rewarding life, relative to their abilities.

I've also seen how challenging it can be for families, especially if there are only one or two persons - and older themselves.

I think abortion is a personal choice, regardless.  For some people, they see no reason why a D/S diagnosis would alter their decision to follow through.  For others, that perspective is unfathomable, and they'd opt differently.  But I don't their reasoning is any of our business.

I do think we need to challenge our view, as a society, that anyone with a handicapp is a burden.  I remember speaking to someone who grew up in a small European village.  They asserted that handicapped persons are seen as blessings, and taken care of by everyone.

It is also my feeling that the decision to choose abortion should be that of the woman, her doctor, and the man involved.  The government should not be involved, nor should the christer churches.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on May 09, 2007, 06:38:20 PM
sam,

It is also my feeling that the decision to choose abortion should be that of the woman, her doctor, and the man involved.  The government should not be involved, nor should the christer churches.

JUST SO!!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 09, 2007, 06:44:20 PM

It is also my feeling that the decision to choose abortion should be that of the woman, her doctor, and the man involved.  The government should not be involved, nor should the christer churches.

Amen to that.  Government policies, IMO, should promote realistic education on human sexuality, birth control, and abortion, and adopt policies that give people easy knowledgeable access to various choices, not fewer, and more ignorant ones.  We generally recognize that such personal decisions are between the woman and her physician/s, and family members.  Legally, however, I stand by the position that it is the woman's body -- and if she wishes to exclude people from that choice -- wisely or not wisely -- it is justifiably her decision.  Even if an unhappy one for those who wanted to know, but found out later (so phooey to you-know-who, who was appointed to our high court).  We don't force people to follow through on pregnancies, nor do we force them - as has happened in China, for example -- to abort.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 09, 2007, 06:49:57 PM

It is also my feeling that the decision to choose abortion should be that of the woman, her doctor, and the man involved.  The government should not be involved, nor should the christer churches.

Amen to that.  Government policies, IMO, should promote realistic education on human sexuality, birth control, and abortion, and adopt policies that give people easy knowledgeable access to various choices, not fewer, and more ignorant ones.  We generally recognize that such personal decisions are between the woman and her physician/s, and family members.  Legally, however, I stand by the position that it is the woman's body -- and if she wishes to exclude people from that choice -- wisely or not wisely -- it is justifiably her decision.  Even if an unhappy one for those who wanted to know, but found out later (so phooey to you-know-who, who was appointed to our high court).  We don't force people to follow through on pregnancies, nor do we force them - as has happened in China, for example -- to abort.

The book I'm reading, Kingdom Coming, talks a lot about how the christer right has gained so much control of the social parts of our governement under Bush.  I hope that Hillary or Obama will dismantle this insane faith-based program that Bush has put into place as one of their first priorities.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 09, 2007, 07:42:38 PM
That's where I heard him.  He was talking about today's pot having much greater potentency than that smoked in the 70s.  Not being a smoker myself, I was curious if that was true. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 09, 2007, 09:50:25 PM
students born in the months May through April do poorer on tests than children born in other months.

May through April. Very interesting. Kind of takes care of everybody, doesn't it?
What are these other months kids are being born in? That, evidently is the key to solving our education problems. Just find kids born in months outside of May through April.


Oh, yes.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 10, 2007, 04:13:05 AM
The book I'm reading, Kingdom Coming, talks a lot about how the christer right has gained so much control of the social parts of our governement under Bush.  I hope that Hillary or Obama will dismantle this insane faith-based program that Bush has put into place as one of their first priorities.

I hope the program is dismantled too.  I'm making a note that title.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 10, 2007, 05:25:17 AM
The book I'm reading, Kingdom Coming, talks a lot about how the christer right has gained so much control of the social parts of our governement under Bush.  I hope that Hillary or Obama will dismantle this insane faith-based program that Bush has put into place as one of their first priorities.

I hope the program is dismantled too.  I'm making a note that title.

The RR have gained much during the last 6 years of the Bush administration, compromising the separation between church and state.  They receive federal tax dollars yet have the right to discriminate.  There is an interesting report on the Salvation Army who require employees to fill out forms describing their religious life as a requirement of employment.  They have fired all gays.  I will not give a nickel to the SA.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 10, 2007, 09:23:48 AM
Mr. Utley,

I made an error. It should have said May through August. - David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 10, 2007, 10:47:21 AM
I figured that. I was just yanking your chain. But the study doesn't surprise me. The children born in those months are simply the youngest in their class.

If the school year started in January, the months of those children who are "behind" would simply shift to August through December.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 10, 2007, 05:37:01 PM
If the children who score lower than the rest are the youngest in their classes, then the results are quite logical and probably not worthy of much attention.

Of greater interest is the fact that children with a greater exposure to lead either from highway emissions or old paint, have serious learning and behavior problems. Such research should get much more of our attention than a study that concludes that younger children score lower. Duh!




Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 10, 2007, 06:25:45 PM
Online teaching and learning:

The following is an article about an online teacher who is combining both f2f and online communications and lessons for her students:

http://www.teachermagazine.org/tm/articles/2007/05/08/25tln_cdebaca_web.html?levelId=1000&rale2=KQE5d7nM%2FXAYPsVRXwnFWYRqIIX2bhy1%2BKNA5buLAWGoKt77XHI2terRpWBSgktL4bXgTCDsilGe%0Alz2IbV7o9QQcB6IxUwU9ZIyadIh%2BC4rh%2F9BFEakU7ZHII%2Fmu01CUEpLNhfZ%2FY5RTSAFMoROfwTsH%0AAsyDLJnT9czpjKHi7khQUPRB5iYdt7RnU0kcrDRhMHRKnpmJGWAEl8CdgRE73xsbxQyA6K0QVuhH%0ALzNDIc8X%2BI%2Fb8nt35ZSzM%2FuKwZyuaPQP4kEQdXIGf8gsnKo2UZHII%2Fmu01CUZqeSJgz3EN8Wc%2FCU%0ArLGOAcvx1wiVOIEJnARASny%2FMeuiNRBMQ3jDnr0Kz8K%2BeMZe9RPOCjCGUxHBU7RV9WNG%2FOT4qmpJ%0AonaHNHIG4grfnrFW6EcvM0Mhz6X9j%2BLoUNqfOyyrXc5CIQpiPADH6%2BFquOoRm%2F%2F5CeGAn7Wm4Fxn%0AoJ7FPvwtWnIzHmI8AMfr4Wq46hGb%2F%2FkJ4YDtZ2WMqQ7t7GlcIH9%2FZcqfpu2skyXOUxQFqo5u%2B%2FTY%0ASYxFCKmjNJdaS7w7eUsA0EyuLAffIHb440QMQT3ha8W%2B6j9eVRIXJ4MmxJjjyewUW72SAxxsAEIo%0AavJzS5kx18Pgj2AFP7B6HlPFFNs%2Fhx4zmO9vRLnZW0hOx%2BOaK1TL2R41g%2FMl8YXNDK2xxX%2FZErOJ%0AOsmi9mxb5ZjF6%2BIJgNzD7flVolf9NAmm8O6Pkwb8uA%3D%3D

Do notice that she is going to the funeral of a former student despite the distance involved to get there.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 10, 2007, 10:01:07 PM
Speaking of former students, I had an eventful evening.

It started when we got home from the grocery store and were headed to pick up the car that had been serviced while we shopped. We had picked up the Blackstone weekly paper at the grocery store, and hubby had just read it as we were getting ready to leave. As we were driving to the shop for the car, he asked if I'd seen the picture of the Coles girl taken with the Queen's Guards at Jamestown. The caption said she was the daughter of Leroy and Joann, and wasn't that my former student.

When we got home, I picked up the paper, and sure enough the delighted girl standing between the two solumn guards was the 16 yr old daughter of a former student. The caption said she was formerly of Blackstone, now living in Petersburg, and about to move to Williamsburg since her father had just gotten a promotion. So I hauled out the phone book, and found her mother's name and called. Joann had been in high school with Leroy, but not in my special ed English class. She was a bright girl. Leroy had problems with reading, but was happier being a "class clown" than studying hard. It amazed me that the two go together, let alone made a lasting marriage and family. After a lot of conversation, Joann told me Leroy was working in Hampton and gave me his cell phone number.

So I called Leroy. And, to my amazement this silly boy who had once so resisted my insistance that my students set life goals and decide what they wanted to be, that he announced he was going to grow up to move to Richmond and become an AIDs victim, is now quite a success. When he started high school and tackled that question, AIDs was a new disease and had not claimed many lives yet. And that was how I remembered him, and how I introduced myself on the phone with him.

Well, we talked for hours, catching up. He is still a "people person", not much of a clown, but with a good sense of humor. He now works for the major company in the US which turns trash into electricity. His new promotion is to a larger plant and supervision of 20 workers. His new position requires at least an associate degree, and he's been worried about being able to succeed in college when he had "barely scraped by" in high school. So, we talked about his strengths and weaknesses and how he would succeed with his courses since he has matured so much since he was in high school.

In school, he had somewhere around a 5/6 grade reading level. He was not one of the students who made a huge increase during his high school years, but, as I told him on the phone, the fact that he had "aced" the exam for the Waste Management Certificate which was an open-book exam, told me that he had sufficient reading skills now to go on with college. All he had needed from the point he was at in high school was the practice at reading -to read what interested him (in his field of work), and he had apparently done that. He was one of the many of my students who was using a computer weekly to do assignment, and getting online to write to other students around the world. Now, he is using the typical Office software on his job.

Leroy had good parents. They never missed the IEP meetings and came to most Parent days while he was in high school. Neither of his parents had gone past 7th grade themselves, but they wanted Leroy to graduate from high school His father supplemented his income from his one-man plumbing business in a small town/rural area, with preaching. Leroy had strong moral guidance in his parents.

Leroy's daughter, who skipped an afternoon at the mall to see the Queen of England, is planning to go to William and Mary, a highly respected Virginia university.

For those of you who may want to assume I am talking about a blond-haired freckle-face man, you stand corrected. Leroy is a dark chocolate colored man who, as an adult, speaks in standard English. He is, at age 39, already more successful than was expected when he was in school, and there is no telling where he will be in another 10-20 years.

I may not have gotten wealthy as a teacher, but I think the results of my efforts in Leroy and the others I taught, show that I turned out productive students even if they were not great readers while in school. Perhaps we need to be less quick in our judgements of what is required for "success".

Leroy would not have done well, if he had had to take standardized tests in school. The tests may have discouraged him. By believing in him, as I did all my students, I gave him what he needed most to succeed, and it would never be on the tests.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on May 11, 2007, 04:56:52 PM
Yeah, I always think blond hair blue eyes when I hear LEROY


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 11, 2007, 07:20:23 PM
Are only black people named Leroy?  Who knew?  But anyway, KidCarter....Are you a teacher?  I'm thinking no.  If you've ever taught, you will understand how much it means when you run across a former student and discover that perhaps you did make a difference in his life.

That is so true.  One of my best customers and contractors is a man who was in my 7th grade class in 1964.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 12, 2007, 12:12:34 PM
Sam,

It is so exciting to find out what became of those awkward bodies who once wriggled and giggled in front of you day after day. Leroy is not the first success from my classes, one of my students is the manager of the fire department at Fort Pickett, a nearby military installation that will soon be used by new Naval Pilots to learn to land and take off, since the army left it with a very good airfield. I don't relish the coming noise, but I'm sure Jimmy's job will grow! Another student, I met recently at a country store, is now the head janitor at the middle school, supervising 5-6 employees. And another, who earned his associate degree right out of high school, is managing the Internet at a nearby high school. The last three are all black men. I really don't know much about what happened to most of the white boys I taught, since most young people tend to move away from town after graduation. One of the white boys who dropped out after 10th grade, went into working high steel in the Washington DC area, and told me he made lots more than I did.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 12, 2007, 12:51:43 PM
Sam,

It is so exciting to find out what became of those awkward bodies who once wriggled and giggled in front of you day after day. Leroy is not the first success from my classes, one of my students is the manager of the fire department at Fort Pickett, a nearby military installation that will soon be used by new Naval Pilots to learn to land and take off, since the army left it with a very good airfield. I don't relish the coming noise, but I'm sure Jimmy's job will grow! Another student, I met recently at a country store, is now the head janitor at the middle school, supervising 5-6 employees. And another, who earned his associate degree right out of high school, is managing the Internet at a nearby high school. The last three are all black men. I really don't know much about what happened to most of the white boys I taught, since most young people tend to move away from town after graduation. One of the white boys who dropped out after 10th grade, went into working high steel in the Washington DC area, and told me he made lots more than I did.



Did you ask him if he was happy and felt rewarded in his work as well as making more money?  Those are important too.  My father-in-law began working in a "mill" right after high school, and he worked there doing the same job for the next 40 years, hating every minute of it.  On one hand, I felt sorry for him because he didn't have the confidence to get out of the jail he'd entered when he was 18; but on the other had, I was glad to know it wasn't me.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 12, 2007, 12:56:22 PM
I didn't ask Leroy if he was happy, but it was certainly in his voice and in his enthusiasm as he described the process used by the company to convert trash to electricity. He proudly pointed out that the company has stock, he owns some, and he is now interested in the stock market, along with the desire to get ahead.

He also spoke eloquently about many of his teachers, most by name. And of the fact that they give so much and earn so little. He was excited that I am now writing books, commenting that "you are still giving of yourself!" .... I don't think any praise of my stories means as much to me as his!



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 12, 2007, 01:07:37 PM
I didn't ask Leroy if he was happy, but it was certainly in his voice and in his enthusiasm as he described the process used by the company to convert trash to electricity. He proudly pointed out that the company has stock, he owns some, and he is now interested in the stock market, along with the desire to get ahead.

He also spoke eloquently about many of his teachers, most by name. And of the fact that they give so much and earn so little. He was excited that I am now writing books, commenting that "you are still giving of yourself!" .... I don't think any praise of my stories means as much to me as his!



Oh, I mis-understood your earlier post.  I thought he was mocking you when he claimed to be making more than you did.  Well, good that he is successful.  I have another student who was pretty slow in the classroom, but a genious when it came to automobiles.  He's owned his own business now for over 30 years and has been very successful.  He has a lovely wife and beautiful children.  His home is filled with extremely valuable antiques, which was another of his passions. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 14, 2007, 03:45:07 PM
Anne,

Hi there. It's should make you feel/think good when you know you made a positive difference in a person's life. Some would say  even more so when making a positive difference in a child's life. Good job, nah, much better than  that ... EEXCELLENT !!! - David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 14, 2007, 03:49:50 PM
Educators,

It can never be a bad idea to inspire children with an opposite attitude to racism.

http://www.LEARNspreadtheword.com

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 14, 2007, 07:48:57 PM
David,

One of the things Leroy said in that long telephone conversation was that I had faith in his ability despite his race and the thoughts at the time that he really shouldn't amount to anything. The times changed and he was ready for them, and that was exactly what I had hoped for with each of my students. I didn't have a different set of expectation for the black students separate from the white students. I wanted each and all to succeed. And that, David, is the opposite of Racism.

Anne


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 15, 2007, 05:40:54 AM
David,

One of the things Leroy said in that long telephone conversation was that I had faith in his ability despite his race and the thoughts at the time that he really shouldn't amount to anything. The times changed and he was ready for them, and that was exactly what I had hoped for with each of my students. I didn't have a different set of expectation for the black students separate from the white students. I wanted each and all to succeed. And that, David, is the opposite of Racism.

Anne


It sounds like you were a very good teacher, Anne.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 15, 2007, 06:57:31 AM
Sam,

It was my goal to become the best teacher I could be. I didn't specialize in a subject so much as I specialized in the kids. Mostly I taught the English to the special kids, and that is a broad enough subject to pull in a lot of possibilities. When I was given a literature book that my kids could read comfortably, I found it was difficult for them to see the literary point by reading, so I started each unit with a movie that I felt, showed that tenet. A favorite was "The Gods Must Be Crazy", to show Point of View. "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" showed characters, and "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" showed foreshadowing. For early American literature, I found a silent film of "The Scarlet Letter", which the kids thoroughly enjoyed and got more out of the movie than reading the story. The lit set used "The Pearl" as the novel in 10th grade lit, but I never got a class that ever got into that story. I even tried the movie of "The Pearl", and that moved too slowly for the kids to really understand the plot. But the kids thoroughly enjoyed every one of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries in the lit books! We also did current events, which got the kids into the newspaper, and I had an excercise in reading a map that one of my principals thoroughly loved. Hubby had access to as many Virginia highway maps as I wanted, and after several exercises in writing down the precise directions to go from one place to another in the state, the kids could take home the highway map! Although I worked in one of the lowest paid counties in the state, I truly enjoyed teaching to the fullest. I will never have enough money to build as estate to pass on to my sons, but I am now building a legacy in writings that should make them proud after I pass to the classroom in the sky.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 15, 2007, 08:35:09 AM
Sam,

It was my goal to become the best teacher I could be. I didn't specialize in a subject so much as I specialized in the kids. Mostly I taught the English to the special kids, and that is a broad enough subject to pull in a lot of possibilities. When I was given a literature book that my kids could read comfortably, I found it was difficult for them to see the literary point by reading, so I started each unit with a movie that I felt, showed that tenet. A favorite was "The Gods Must Be Crazy", to show Point of View. "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" showed characters, and "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" showed foreshadowing. For early American literature, I found a silent film of "The Scarlet Letter", which the kids thoroughly enjoyed and got more out of the movie than reading the story. The lit set used "The Pearl" as the novel in 10th grade lit, but I never got a class that ever got into that story. I even tried the movie of "The Pearl", and that moved too slowly for the kids to really understand the plot. But the kids thoroughly enjoyed every one of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries in the lit books! We also did current events, which got the kids into the newspaper, and I had an excercise in reading a map that one of my principals thoroughly loved. Hubby had access to as many Virginia highway maps as I wanted, and after several exercises in writing down the precise directions to go from one place to another in the state, the kids could take home the highway map! Although I worked in one of the lowest paid counties in the state, I truly enjoyed teaching to the fullest. I will never have enough money to build as estate to pass on to my sons, but I am now building a legacy in writings that should make them proud after I pass to the classroom in the sky.




There are rewards greater than money for some of us in life.  I don't have a huge legacy either, but I've made my mark on the lives of many in my work.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 15, 2007, 02:08:55 PM
I didn't have a different set of expectation for the black students separate from the white students. I wanted each and all to succeed. And that, David, is the opposite of Racism.

Yes Anne, that is spreading an opposite to racism.

One thought process I've heard throughout the years are some teachers have a lower expectation of their black students than other students. How prevalent is this? Probably more than we'd like to know.

David





Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 15, 2007, 02:29:10 PM
David,

I can only speak for teachers I have met or known in some capacity, and among them the teachers with lowered expectations for blacks are less prevelent in my generation than in the previous generation. I think the colleges around here do a better job of preparing teachers to work with all children as equals while recognizing that some, irrespective of race, will come from homes without the love and resources needed for success in school. Of course, it was usually my job to work specifically with those kids, although I did have some from successful homes that were disabled by dyslexia and retardation because it was genetic rather than environmental.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on May 18, 2007, 11:23:11 PM
Environmental retardation?

What a concept.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on May 18, 2007, 11:23:56 PM
But of course the environment cannot contribute to a child becoming gay.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 19, 2007, 01:28:07 AM
Since Falwell is now answering for his sins, here's a list from the North Carolina Majority's 1981 brochure, "Don'ts for Students".  Courtesy of Orcinus, through Progressive Historians:

Don'ts for students.

1. Don't get into science-fiction values discussions or trust a teacher who dwells on science fiction in his/her "teaching."

2. Don't discuss the future or future social arrangements or governments in class.

3. Don't discuss values.

4. Don't write a family history.

5. Don't answer personal questions or questions about members of your family.

6. Don't play blindfolded games in class.

7. Don't exchange "opinions" on political or social issues.

8. Don't write an autobiography.

9. Don't keep a journal of your opinions, activities and feelings.

10. Don't take intelligence tests. Write tests only on your lessons. Force others to judge you on your own personal achievement.

11. Don't discuss boy-girl or parent-child relationships in class.

12. Don't confide in teachers, particularly sociology or social studies and english teachers.

13. Don't judge a teacher by his/her appearance or personality, but on his/her competence as a teacher of solid knowledge.

14. Don't think a teacher is doing you a favor if he/she gives you a good grade for poor work or in useless subjects.

15. Don't join any social action or social work group.

16. Don't take "social studies" or "future studies." Demand course definition: history, geography, civics, French, English, etc.

17. Don't role-play or participate in socio-dramas.

18. Don't worry about the race or color of your classmates. Education is of the mind, not the body.

19. Don't get involved in school-sponsored or government-sponsored exchange or camping programs which place you in the homes of strangers.

20. Don't be afraid to say "no" to morally corrupting literature, games and activities.

21. Don't submit to psychological testing.

22. Don't fall for books like "Future Shock," which are intended to put readers in a state of panic about "change" so they will be willing to accept slavery. Advances in science and technology don't drive people into shock. It is government and vain-brain intrusions in private lives, which cause much of the unbalance in nature and in people.

23. Don't get into classroom discussions which being: What would you do if....? What if....? Should we....? Do you suppose....? Do you think....? What is your opinion of....? Who should....? What might happen if....? Do you value....? Is it moral to....?

24. Don't sell out important principles for money, a scholarship, a diploma, popularity or a feeling of importance.

25. Don't think you have to associate with morally corrupt people or sanction their corruption just because "society" now accepts such behavior.

26. Don't get discouraged. If you stick to firm principles, others will respect you for it and perhaps gain courage from your example.


http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/05/back-to-dark-ages.html



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 19, 2007, 01:56:16 AM
Inca,

The effect of a list like this is to destroy a sense of trust between teacher and students that is critical for some learning. Of course, there are some parents who disdain any trust between their child and any other caring adults. It is sad, but it seems to be more true now than in decades past.

Some of those "don'ts" were the very things that built the relationships between my students and I that led to their later successes. First day of school, every class, every year they were with me, I had my students complete a form "Autobiography" in which I asked them about their past schooling and plans for the future. The second day, they took a "learning styles" assessment - a psychological test, to help them define how they understood how they learned. As I looked over these assessment year to year, I had an idea from the beginning what the best way to teach was for each of my classes and each of my students, and they developed the idea that learning was their responsibility and that there were many ways to approach it.

And, of course, I would have liked to have heard less details about boy/girl relationships than I did, but that was an outgrowth of the trust that built up between my students and I. I also heard about some parent/child relationships, mostly the good ones.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 19, 2007, 02:56:41 AM
Inca,

The effect of a list like this is to destroy a sense of trust between teacher and students that is critical for some learning. Of course, there are some parents who disdain any trust between their child and any other caring adults. It is sad, but it seems to be more true now than in decades past.

Some of those "don'ts" were the very things that built the relationships between my students and I that led to their later successes. First day of school, every class, every year they were with me, I had my students complete a form "Autobiography" in which I asked them about their past schooling and plans for the future. The second day, they took a "learning styles" assessment - a psychological test, to help them define how they understood how they learned. As I looked over these assessment year to year, I had an idea from the beginning what the best way to teach was for each of my classes and each of my students, and they developed the idea that learning was their responsibility and that there were many ways to approach it.

And, of course, I would have liked to have heard less details about boy/girl relationships than I did, but that was an outgrowth of the trust that built up between my students and I. I also heard about some parent/child relationships, mostly the good ones.


Weezo,

That was also my sense of the list.  To engender in the children/students the fear of the teachers and education system.  To keep up a wall of sorts.  As a parent myself now, I sympathize with some of feelings these families must have been going through.  They must have felt judged by the schools when they went in themselves - as outsiders in some way - and that the school differences would work on their children in such a way to undermine the authority they had in the home to raise their children in the way they felt would be best for them.  Interesting, as a not-fully-commmited home educator, who has spoken with parents frustrated with "the system" - I can empathize with things they're now going through.  There's a Canadian writer (names slips me at the moment - I'll let you know another time) who speaks of how parents have really lost their influence over their children to the peer group;  and the peer group cannot substitute for what parents provide.  And, the education system undermine the home as well.  This is especially the case if you come from a non-traditional family.

But - at the same time - so many of those points were aspects of my education at the middle school and especially, the high school level, during the '70's, when many experiments were being conducted within the public school system.  So I went through a program somewhat similar to "Billie Jack" (except we went home at the end of the day - didn't sleep there - and remained in the PS), the students were (ideally) running the program, and we engaged in learning activities that included blind folded trust falling from heights (to be caught by those below), never-ending town meetings, conversations that entailed all kind of questions just like those listing, examining our values, our opinions, sharing personal information, writing autobiographies, going camping and staying up all night having rap sessions that did or didn't included teachers ...  and that's not including the classes themselves ... We had college scheduling with an open campus where we were permitted to come and go during our free time.

We had exactly the type of rich and meaningful learning experience that Jerry Falwell would have cringed at.  With some of most remarkable teachers in the high school.

While they were building walls up, we were busy taking walls down. (Though we didn't take "intelligence tests" -- and we didn't learn to accept a teacher's bad grade -- we wrote our own evaluations for ourselves, along with teachers and an advisor.  Then we would discuss all of it.)

At that time in my life, it was one of the best things that ever happened to me.  Some students fell through the cracks in that type of program - - usually, if they had skills they needed remedial help with -- or they fell into the drug thing -- drugs coming to the suburban New York schools by that point in time ('70's) - or they just couldn't handle the freedom.  Usually, students fell apart at the beginning with the freedom, then, buckled down and started working very, very hard on what they were interested in.

We were very connected with one another as a student/teacher body - yet also very individual and independent within the program.

These programs don't exist anymore, as far as I know.  When I first started hearing about "alternative" programs, I thought "Oh well, that's what I had."  No, it wasn't.  They were special education channels for impoverished children moving on towards drug dealing, jail, the army, early motherhood and early conflictual marriages, working the 7-11 store, taking care of relatives, etc.  And they didn't like school.  "Alternative" had changed from something exciting and adventurous into something of a wastebasket for the regular school system couldn't manage about one group or another.  All of whom they threw together.

A little sleepy here, so hope this makes sense, and that you'll forgive my typos.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 19, 2007, 07:48:55 AM
I actually enjoyed teaching and the kids.  It was all the rest of it that drove me away, plus my kids liked to eat year round, and as the sole bread winner in those days, it was difficult to provide them with the same material things their friends took for granted. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 19, 2007, 07:52:00 AM
Inca,

I have a lot of respect for parents who homeschool. But a committment to it is important if it is going to be more than a short term correction of a problem. I hope you are using the Internet as a source of information for your children. Too many home schoolers are active online as parents, but push their children away from the Internet for lessons and information. They want to be heard as to why the system does not appeal to them, but they turn around and use very inferior resources to actually teach their children. Some of them (and I said some, not many or most), seem to believe their children can learn with very little imput from the parents as teachers. They let their children race through those inferior children, and believe their children has learned more than they actually did.

Well done, homeschooling will be rather similar to your experience in an alternative program. And, yes, the meaning of the term has changed in many places. Your goal is to create an independent learner who explores to a great extent to learn much more than the curriculum specifies. Homeschooling has the option of letting the student learn at the child's own pace and follow their interests. It should not be an exercise in seeing how fast the child can rip through a poorly designed work-text. The homeschooer should be doing projects, visiting museums, the state capital, local government meetings, delving into the details in local historical sites, writing for publication, and making projects that don't hit the trash can as soon as they are done, but become learning tools for a period of time.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 19, 2007, 09:17:06 AM
Anti-Evolution Kansan Runs Unopposed For National Schools Post
New York Times | Posted May 18, 2007 09:35 PM

The National Association of State Boards of Education will elect officers in July, and for one office, president-elect, there is only one candidate: a member of the Kansas school board who supported its efforts against the teaching of evolution.

Scientists who have been active in the nation's evolution debate say they want to thwart his candidacy, but it is not clear that they can.



This is why Americans need to be vigilant.  People like this are dangerous to our freedom and democracy.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 19, 2007, 09:19:38 AM
Inca,

I have a lot of respect for parents who homeschool. But a committment to it is important if it is going to be more than a short term correction of a problem. I hope you are using the Internet as a source of information for your children. Too many home schoolers are active online as parents, but push their children away from the Internet for lessons and information. They want to be heard as to why the system does not appeal to them, but they turn around and use very inferior resources to actually teach their children. Some of them (and I said some, not many or most), seem to believe their children can learn with very little imput from the parents as teachers. They let their children race through those inferior children, and believe their children has learned more than they actually did.

Well done, homeschooling will be rather similar to your experience in an alternative program. And, yes, the meaning of the term has changed in many places. Your goal is to create an independent learner who explores to a great extent to learn much more than the curriculum specifies. Homeschooling has the option of letting the student learn at the child's own pace and follow their interests. It should not be an exercise in seeing how fast the child can rip through a poorly designed work-text. The homeschooer should be doing projects, visiting museums, the state capital, local government meetings, delving into the details in local historical sites, writing for publication, and making projects that don't hit the trash can as soon as they are done, but become learning tools for a period of time.

I think people who home school deny their children the opportunity to experience the diversity that a public education provides.  Many are also motivated by their religion to home school so that they can indoctrinate the next generation with the hate and fear that they themselves live with.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 19, 2007, 12:10:57 PM
Sam,

Not all public schools have much "diversity". In states with few minorities, there may be little diversity in a suburban school. And, not all homeschool parents, do it for their whole school career. Some do it only for a year or two and then let the child return to school. Just as there are bad public schools- schools that are so rife with uncontrolled violence that no child should be required to attend, there are home school situations which no child should be in. But, by and large, teachers who get students back in school who were homeschooled, usually have committed students who tend to do what is expected of them without the usual moans and groans and silly dodges.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 19, 2007, 12:45:23 PM
Weezo

Well I use the word "committed" in a way that I'm not going to get into online.  I don't want to discuss my child and their education on the internet.  I do think that people's perspective on educating at home is limited if they haven't done it themselves.

I brought up my own experience because it's exposed me to parents who have very different views than my own, some of which are similar to the Falwell people, as reflected in the list the North Carolina Moral Majority printed in the eighties.  I described my own experience to give a better picture of myself and my background -- that, my having a certain understanding of moral majority types, does not mean that I share these views at all.  And I hoped that describing some of my own earlier educational background, as a counterpoint to their list, would underscore that point.  My perspective on moral majority sorts is also very limited in how much we know each other personally.  After all, I'm not a "Christian" parent raising a "Christian" child. ;-)  And I do observe an emphasis among far right Christian homeschoolers on maintaining a certain social environment that excludes those who are not deemd as morally fit.  From I see, however, these children do have social lives, just more structured, laid out, and sheltered in certain respects.  I don't agree with the ways of all these forms of sheltering, but I can't say they don't have the right to do this.  And I do think it is legitimate for parents to "shelter" their children from certain experiences -- as an extreme example, take a high school with a large influx or drugs, violence, or drug dealing.  Main point though -- there are aspects of my experience with the public school system as a parent that enable me to relate to these families, even if we are light years away from each other in other respects.  And do other parents who are secular in approach, and not educating at home for religious reasons.

In short, the views in the list are also about alienation from the system.  And I see that alienation for many parents as getting worse, not better, and including more groups and more "types," not just the far Christian right.  I think the public school system should be braver and look at some these issues more closely.

On home education, in general, Weezo, I agree with you that it is possible to have some of characteristics of the "free school" education I had -- however, not completely, since mine was in the public school system, with public school high school teachers.  That's not intended to connote a value, just an observation of "the way it is/was."  Without getting into a discussion of our practices, I am not interested in going the free school route, though I do value some elements.  I respect the choices of those who do.

I agree that what Saminh describes can/does happen, but I think he is also misinformed on the state of home education today in the United States.  I also think it's importan that parents should retain the right to educate at home, and that this is important, not only for families, but for the public school system itself.  Parents should have rights and leverage for dealing with the school system and getting what they believe is in the best interests of their children.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 19, 2007, 01:00:33 PM
IOW,

I made my first statement not to get advice on home education, Weezo, but to discuss the concepts in that list.

I don't respect any teachers as the authorities to answer to on this forum.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 19, 2007, 01:01:54 PM
Why should I?

Do teachers respect parents?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 19, 2007, 01:10:16 PM
I think education is filled with catch-phrases and parrots putting out the standardized thinking.  Everyone nodds and say, "Oh that's right"  "that's so smart."  That includes a variety of perspectives, and everything from the folksie term "homeschooling", its own schools of elaborate theorists, to public education, the advice people love to dish out, and much more.

I am becoming a bitter obnoxious cynic.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 19, 2007, 01:17:20 PM
I respected parents when I taught public school.  But that was a long time ago.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 19, 2007, 01:18:13 PM
Inca,

Be careful of the assumptions you make on public school teachers. Many do sincerely respect the parents of their students, but sometimes, teachers are put in a position between the child and parent, and must act in the best interests of the child.

While I did not homeschool my own sons, I was very pleased with their education in public schools. On the other hand I had two sisters and a sister-in-law, who chose to homeschool for a period of time, and in two of the three cases, I was able to be helpful in creating materials for one, and curriculum for the other. Also, for a year I was the hired teacher of a home schooling family that had been taught by the mother, who had died three years earlier. I was aghast at the neglect committed by the father after the loss of his wife. His six children went without any education for three years, and, after I left them (he owed me for a month of work), they went at least two more years without any education. Since he had a religious exemption for education of his children, he was legally within his rights to not educate them if he so chose.

I have been a fringe member of the Virginia Homeschooling movement since helping my sister-in-law with my nephew. I get their publications both by mail and email. I keep up with what they are doing and keep my opinons to myself. Some of the educational content on my website would be useful with homeschoolers, and from time to time, I remind them that it is available. I've heard from different people who use my content, but none have ever identified themselves as homeschooler. I did have one student in my online Famous Americans course who said she was homeschooled and was delighted that I was not a critic of that method. In the past, there were other homeschoolers in that course, but they were under age 13 and had to come in under the parent name, so I corresponded directly with the parent in those situations. I had no parental contact with the most recent girl to come through that course.

I wish you luck in your efforts, and invite you to check out the resouces, especially those for teachers and parents on my website: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org ... Let me know if you need any help with them. You can privately email me about it - my email address is on the bottom of most pages. Of particular interest as "My Own Books", depending on that age of your children, and the math resources that let you print out a variety of math worksheets, each one unique to your needs and that of your children. I do not have any instruction on how to teach math - just the variety of worksheets which I developed and put to use when I taught that homeschool family. If you aren't familiar with Excel, let me know, and I can walk you through how to use them.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 19, 2007, 01:47:13 PM
Inca,

Be careful of the assumptions you make on public school teachers. Many do sincerely respect the parents of their students, but sometimes, teachers are put in a position between the child and parent, and must act in the best interests of the child.


Ah, for their own good.  That sounds like psychological manipulation, Weezo.  And my "assumptions."  Feel free to point to which of my statement lead to you make such a characterization of my views on teachers.  I have obviously known all sorts of teachers.

BTW, If you are in home education field, you would heard some horror stories right now about what happens to some parents and their children. 

Why are you reluctant to address the REAL points I am raising?  As to how the school system alienates more and more parents? 

Instead, you keep trying to turn this in a discussion of something I have said is none of your flipping business.

I think you are really being a mouthpiece for the established order.  I recall you once characterizing home education on this forum as "a fad."  So how can you say that you respect the parents you work with?

But if this is what you do for a living, then you shall have every interest in fighting what I say hook, line, and sinker.  And keeping me in my "place" as the recipient of your so-called educational wisdom.

Please, spare me the gooey guck.  I will not help you further the illusion that you are an "authority."

You are in no position to advise me.  You don't know me.

Aren't you, rather, the one making assumptions here about moi?

If you want to talk about education, go ahead.  If you want to play games, go find yourself another idiot.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 19, 2007, 01:50:03 PM
What is happening right here and right now in our discussion, Weezo, is an example of exactly what I am talking about today in the public education system -- and why they are losing parents FAST.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 19, 2007, 01:51:24 PM
And not one public educator will back me.  I know that.  And I know why.

The system is killing itself.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 19, 2007, 02:00:45 PM
Inca,

I was referring to you question whether teacher respect parents. By and large they do.

As to what is happening here and now in this discussion, I am not sure I follow your logic. What did I say that would cause parents to be lost FAST.

If it is because I offered materials for you to examine and determine if they suited your needs, how is my offer any different from an advertisement in a home schooling publication announcing the sale of materials for home schooler. The catch, of course, is that mine are not for sale, but are free to be used by any teacher or parent. Does that strike you as insidious. If so, I am truly sorry.

As to the changing my statement of acting in the best interests of the child as meaning "for their own good", I was thinking about the children who live in abusive situations and need someone to step between them and an abusive parent. I have no idea what you assumed I meant, but I am referring to the very real home problems that SOME children need help with. Further, it is the LAW that the teacher is to at least REPORT any suspected physical abuse to the proper authorities for investigation. Before social services will investigate, the teacher is required to provide enough information to support an intervention. It is part of the JOB and RESPONSIBILITY of a teacher. Certainly, if a parent knows that a teacher is abusing children, it is the JOB and RESPONSIBILITY of the parent to bring it to the attention of the proper authorities as well. It is a two-way street. I will add, that in twenty years of teaching special education students, I NEVER had to report a suspected abusive situation. I did at time provide advice to parents, when they asked for it, about potential abusive situations often child against parent abuse.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 19, 2007, 03:08:33 PM
I was referring to you question whether teacher respect parents. By and large they do.

I don't agree with this statement.  Take a stroll through a teacher's lounge and listen to the chat about parents.  Does that sound like respect?  Puleez.

Or just listen to the some of the stories of parents whose children are no longer in the public school system.

As to what is happening here and now in this discussion, I am not sure I follow your logic. What did I say that would cause parents to be lost FAST.
I am refering to the school system and the increasing numbers of parents choosing to take their children out, or, expressing great disatisfaction.

IMO, persons working therein would be well advised to actually consider what parents are disatisfied with, insteading on patronizing them, as I see you doing here with moi.

You still are not addressing the main point I initially raised in posting the Falwell '80's brochure.  Rather than discussing the issues I posted on, you are trying to frame this conversation in a power dynamic, with yourself as the so-called "education authority."

You are not.
If it is because I offered materials for you to examine and determine if they suited your needs, how is my offer any different from an advertisement in a home schooling publication announcing the sale of materials for home schooler. The catch, of course, is that mine are not for sale, but are free to be used by any teacher or parent. Does that strike you as insidious. If so, I am truly sorry.

Why would you offer me materials?  I did not post about needing any materials, and I have already told you I am not interested in talking with you about my issues as a parent educating at home.  I posted on a Falwell brochure and how it reflects an alienation among parents in the school system.  That was the discussion.  So why do you keep trying to turn this discussion into something else?

As to the changing my statement of acting in the best interests of the child as meaning "for their own good", I was thinking about the children who live in abusive situations and need someone to step between them and an abusive parent.

Abuse is an extreme example, is it not. 

I am not refering to those situations at all.

But I think your statement reflects the same attitude in teachers' lounges when they think they know everything about children and their homes, when there is no abuse or legal issues.  They "know" what's in the child's best interests, and that argument - "for your own good" is used to justify everything they do AGAINST the best interests of the family, the child, and their "education."



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 19, 2007, 03:51:26 PM
Inca,

Would you care to explain the source of your information on what is discussed in "teacher lounges"? Where were these teacher lounges? What were the demographics of the students/parents in the school? What were the demographics of the teachers? Are you asserting that you are an authority on what is said in a teacher's lounge?

I offer my materials to anyone who wants to use them. I offered them to you, trying to be nice and helpful. Instead you throw them back in my face. No wonder teachers don't respect you.

Teachers speak with authority on education for the same reason a plumber speaks with authority on water and waste management or a lawyer speaks with authority on the law. Each one will explain their limitations if you ask. But someone who has worked with hundreds of chldren tends to know more about children than the parent of a single child, although the parent SHOULD know more specifics of that child.

I hope you did not come to this discussion with the intent on making it a place to rag on teachers. That would be most unfriendly of you. You are certainly welcome to state your own specific complaints, but asserting that all public school teachers have this or that opinion or outlook, or that all parents are alienated with the school system is simply not a true statement. In my neck of the woods, parents and teachers work together well for the best education for the children. There is little evidence that large numbers of parents are being ALIENATED around here. If this is a problem in your neck of the woods, you are invited to share your experiences. I may agree with you on a particular instance.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 19, 2007, 06:35:48 PM
Laurie,

I think back to when I went to school and parents and teachers were not partners, and no one seemed unhappy about that. Teachers were the experts in teaching and parents were experts at whatever they did. Parents sought out the advice of teachers despite the fact that teachers were usually single women at that time, and had not raised children of their own. Teachers only knew the side of students that were presented in the classroom, but boy, they knew that side of the children well.

I don't know what has made such drastic changes that some parents feel "alienated" from teachers. We are all about the same thing - what is best for the next generation of children.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 19, 2007, 11:49:58 PM
Laurie,

I wholeheartedly agree that the key to a good teacher is their experience, especially experience with YOUR type of child.

I do wish schools followed the learning styles theories of Rita Dunn as was done in an elementary school in NC as an experiment (early nineties). The principal had all his teachers assessed as to their preferred teaching styles, and had the kids assessed as to their preferred learning styles, and matched them up. The scores on the tests at the end of the year jumped joyously, and, everyone had a very good year! A good principal is one who knows the strengths and weaknesses of his/her teachers and uses that knowledge to solve problems. A good principal solves problems, rather than bullying either the teachers or the parents.

And, yes, back when I started school, the teachers were better educated than most of the parents. In the suburbs that is different now, but it is not terribly different in urban schools or in rural schools. Virginia teachers are now put on a path to earn a masters within the first five years of starting teaching. Some districts pay for it, some don't.  The difference in pay for the higher degree does not pay for the cost unless you stay in education until retirement age.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 01:42:38 AM
Weezo

Maybe you would care to post a copy of your teacher's license, your degree, and evidence of all the years that you have been teaching so that all can see the source of your information and authority.

We have discussed your internet offerings before. I told you here and on the Times that I’m not interested.  I didn’t start talking about your business.  You did, and for umpteenth time, when I have been trying talk about a Falwell brochure.  So you can play this Miss Innocent I’m Such A Nice Person game – but I won’t play it with you.

You are clearly attacking me personally and misconstruing a number of statements I've made because I’m not buying what you’re selling, lady.

If you're really involved in home education and parents trust you, you'd know darn well people feel "alienated" from the public system, and you wouldn't attack a parent for stating as much and tell them No Wonder Teachers Don't Respect You when I haven't even said anything about my personal experience.  My "evidence" has already been presented as conversations other parents, observations of what teachers say themselves, the Falwell brochure which you keep evading any discussion of, and the fact that more parents are taking their children out of the public system.  Obviously there are teachers who respect parents (though you don't seem to one of them, judging by this conversation and your slight on home education while you supposedly work in the field).

"You are certainly welcome to state your own specific complaints, but asserting that all public school teachers have this or that opinion or outlook, or that all parents are alienated with the school system is simply not a true statement."

Well thank you Queen Anne for your permission on a public forum, but you are not in charge here, are you, and I did not state that ALL parents are alienated from the school system or that ALL teachers have this opinion or that.

But again, I think you are clearly attacking me because I'm not interested in your sales pitch and I won't support it.

You were banned from the Times for cyber stalking another member's child, and you misused your internet savy to track down a mother's whereabouts (who was giving Queen Anne a hard time) and publicly revealed it.

I don't mind discussing education with anyone - but if you bring up your business with me - I won't recommend it, I won't kiss your darn butt, and I won't pretend that I don't know about what you did on the Times forum.

So shove it, honey.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 20, 2007, 06:31:13 AM
Inca,

Ah, so you are the touchy Owlice from the Times. Didn't recognize you in your new name and circumstance. So, you decided to homeschool the Owlet this year. Wonder of wonders. I have tried to go along with your games before, providing personal information that you requested, only to have you viciously attack me when I put the shoe on the other foot. As you well know, there was no "cyberstalking" involved. All I did was a few minutes of search on google to find where you had posted your information on another Times forum. If a google search is "cyberstalking", then all who do research using google are guilty of a crime.

The information you claim to want to see as proof of my teachership is available online. You can find it if you choose to look for it. But, you are not really interested in it, you just want an excuse to complain about teachers who do not kow-tow to your ME! ME! demands. So please, do not use my online resources. I make them and provide them freely for parents and teachers who want to use them.

And, yes, home schooling is a fad. I could discuss at length how it is misused by abusive parents, but the stories make headlines as it is. I could also discuss at lenth how it is a boon for children who are terribly unique and are not served well by the school system. I have no quarrel with parents who choose to follow this fad, but I will call it what it is.

Now that you have outed yourself, I will be forewarned who you are and your hate-filled agenda in education. Blow all the smoke you want, and you will no longer catch my interest.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 01:12:02 PM
No, I am not Owlice, the mother whose location you revealed on the Times, an unethical manuever that also proved what you are now asserting about the poster as false.  And whose child you repeatedly launched into because you were having stuff with her, the parent, instead.

I also post under Chrysanthemum2 on the Times forum.  I have stated that a number of times there, including once on that Education forum, since I knew other posters under my other handle.  Thus, I assumed you knew that.

Yes, I am the person who defended you during your troubles with Owlice and Babe and Leanda, wasted my time being upset about what was happening to this poor, sweet, retired teacher posting under alpemberton/weezo, wasted my time dealing with abuse from Babe because I defended YOU, and even took the time to write a lengthy letter on your behalf, at your request to the forum, to the moderators. 

Who wrote back and told me you were banned.

And now, I am not going waste anymore time posting with you about nonsense, being insulted by you and another one of your delusional ideas about other posters because you can't deal with them on the substance of arguments, but only personal issues.

You attack me because I'm not buying what you're selling. 

If that were not the case, we'd be talking about a Falwell article, not who or what you think I may be.


whooooooooooooooooooooo!

Go take your meds, Weezo.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 20, 2007, 01:29:48 PM
Laurie,

On Immigration, I like her posts, but she is behaving now just as Owlice did. I have just read her new post that she is Chrysanthemum, a poster on the times that I respected. Chrysanthemum was, I thought, my friend. I guess I was mistaken.

I fail to understand those who, when offered something free of cost and obligation, curl their nose and insult the offer. What happened to the tradition of sincerely and politely saying "Thank You" and doing what you please.

And. I think we gave the "Falwell Pamphlet", which she posted without source, all that it was worth. Discussing it further is of no point. I do not see the number of parents who subscribe to such nonsense as being significant. I have more respect for those who homeschool for religious reasons than those who insist on putting good teachers in handcuff.

BTW, there was a note in email that a court in Chicago has ruled that teacher's speech is not their own, but is wholly owned by their employers. I don't have a link to the story, but it may have had something to do with a bumper sticker on a teacher's car that said "Honk for Peace". Outrageous! One more of our liberties that bends to the will of the current administration. Where is a ship full of tea when we need it?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 01:44:02 PM
Apparently, people are only your friends, weezo, as long as they keep buying the goods you are selling.  This is sad;  I would have been content to talk with you only about subjects at hand.  But apparently, you make your child-hawking business a condition of any internet relaitonship.

If you wish to continue this personal back and forth -- or talking about me -- or making me an issue on the forum -- I shall complain to the moderators here.

It will make up for that long letter I mistakenly wrote on your behalf, thinking you were a nice person.

So drop it, lady.  Your child-stalking pants are down, and get back on the subject of education, not your girly cat games, or I will pursue the subject of you with the internet police.

And anyone reading here, I recommend you do not link to any sites for children posted by Weezo -- nor take any education advice until you check her credentials for yourself.  I also strongly recommend you do not discuss your children with her on the internet.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 20, 2007, 03:16:59 PM
Chrys,

It is sad to see someone I thought was an honorable person turn into such a vicious predator. As you know, I do not sell anything. My stories are offered to the public free of costs through a charitable foundation which can be checked out at http://www.enabling.org ... If I remember correctly, you know that, because you were helpful in creating the princess story about the Talent Show. Your attack is without provocation. You also knew that I was doing extensive research for the Pocahontas story which is now completed and was announced here before you popped in.

Please do not tell me how to participate in a forum. I will choose my own path, thank you. If it doesn't suit you, you can report it to whomever you please. And, note I am asking you politely, not with the malice you have shown to me.

Last week, hubby and I were at the local newspaper office, and I spoke with the wife of the editor. She asked me to write up a press release to let the local folks know about the stories online, and I sent it to her husband yesterday. They are also homeschoolers, but do not show the attitude towards teachers that you do. In fact, the local paper is usually full of wonderful stories about the great things going on in local classrooms. They did not ask to see my "credentials", just give them the details on what the stories are and how to get them.

Jerry Falwell is NOT a creditable source of information on education, and his list of Don't is, at best, laughable. I do not live far from where Falwell lived, have been exposed to his hate mongering for many years, taught his nephew who was not at like his uncle, and, if you had said when you posted the list, that it was his list, I would not have even bothered to respond. It is ridiculous. It is no different than telling people not to talk to the police when they have information on a crime. It is undermining the national values that have made America what it is.

I am sorry to see that you have changed from a nice person. I enjoyed talking to you in the past. Now, you place yourself in an adversarial position. I does not enhance your personna.







Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 05:01:34 PM
Chrys,

It is sad to see someone I thought was an honorable person turn into such a vicious predator. As you know, I do not sell anything. My stories are offered to the public free of costs through a charitable foundation which can be checked out at http://www.enabling.org ... If I remember correctly, you know that, because you were helpful in creating the princess story about the Talent Show. Your attack is without provocation. You also knew that I was doing extensive research for the Pocahontas story which is now completed and was announced here before you popped in.

Please do not tell me how to participate in a forum. I will choose my own path, thank you. If it doesn't suit you, you can report it to whomever you please. And, note I am asking you politely, not with the malice you have shown to me.

Last week, hubby and I were at the local newspaper office, and I spoke with the wife of the editor. She asked me to write up a press release to let the local folks know about the stories online, and I sent it to her husband yesterday. They are also homeschoolers, but do not show the attitude towards teachers that you do. In fact, the local paper is usually full of wonderful stories about the great things going on in local classrooms. They did not ask to see my "credentials", just give them the details on what the stories are and how to get them.

Jerry Falwell is NOT a creditable source of information on education, and his list of Don't is, at best, laughable. I do not live far from where Falwell lived, have been exposed to his hate mongering for many years, taught his nephew who was not at like his uncle, and, if you had said when you posted the list, that it was his list, I would not have even bothered to respond. It is ridiculous. It is no different than telling people not to talk to the police when they have information on a crime. It is undermining the national values that have made America what it is.

I am sorry to see that you have changed from a nice person. I enjoyed talking to you in the past. Now, you place yourself in an adversarial position. I does not enhance your personna.



I did not present Jerry Falwell as a credible source of information.  I presented his brochure through the Orcinus link as something I disagree with entirely, and in agreement with their position, which is unashamedly liberal (unlike yourself).  You are pathetic in your attempt to dishonestly recast my views in an appeal to sympathy from others.

You are a control freak who plays these boards for control, and uses bullying and lies to hurt others, and advance yourself.  You do not deal with the substance of what is said unless it serves that purpose.

I don't like you anymore.

Maybe your real problem with that brochure is that, if you had to discuss it honestly, you might have to be more frank with the fundies you work with as to what your real opinion of them is.

But as long as they pay you to tutor their children, you can avoid the subject of what you really think of fundamentalist Christians and home education in general.

The only visciousness I see on this forum is you.  I said nothing about your business until you brought it -- repeatedly in an attempt to get me to support it -- and again, the only reason you tear me apart is because I refuse to help you hawk your goods.  Or play your game called "Anne is an authority on education - please, Anne, give advice."

The website, I mistakenly helped you with -- during that period I mistakenly thought you were a responsible person -- may not give you money immediately -- but it is clearly promotional, serves those ends, and, considering your actions on the Times regarding the child of another poster -- it is entirely conceivable that you have an unsavory interest in children.

So of course, you will say anything about anyone who dares to state what has already been stated about on the Times.  Including the fact that you were banned.  Not just sent to "stand in a corner for 24 hours."

I have placed a complaint about you on this forum. 

I suggest if you have a problem with me, and are sincerely here to discuss the substance of issues, you place me on your ignore.

But if you continue to speak to me about this subject, I will certainly continue to speak my mind, whether you liike it or not, dear.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 06:30:28 PM


I did not present Jerry Falwell as a credible source of information.  I presented his brochure through the Orcinus link as something I disagree with entirely, and in agreement with their position,

Actually, I will further qualify that view.  I clearly presented the brochure as a reflection of parental alienation from the school system, shared by other parents -- who are light years away in certain opinions from fundamentalists.  As I described myself.

However, I do personally support some of their positions and understand aspects of that alienation.  For example, there is an item that says (something to the effect of) not submitting to psychological tests.  I agree with parents advising their children as such.  I think students should be aware of their right to refuse to undergo some forms of testing - and that school systems do not have the blanket right to push students around in this respect.  Where I would diverge from fundamentalists, however, is that they are teaching students to obey -- I see it as teaching students to question authority and think for themselves.

There were a couple of other items too.

But, for the most part, I disagreed with the statements themselves at face value.  For example, I completely digress with their assertions on not answering certain questions or engaging in certain discussions or writing about certain personal aspects of their lives.  I think these exercises can be very conducive to learning, depending on the teacher.

But in general, the list reflects - as Orcinus indicates - a kind of thinking I am at odds with -- yet also find it addressing a feeling about the schools and teachers in general -- that schools would be wise to examine, for the sake of public education in the U.S.

You, Weezo, if you are even a teacher - (feel free to post your license number, and more, if you want to argue that point) - seem to reflect the power structure - everyone's o.k. as long as they know their place.

I also completely question your former student's reported statements.  If there is a former student.  I suspect he told you what he well knew you wanted to hear.  Who needs the waves in Virginia - especially given what you appear capable of - in terms of attacking others personally if they don't play your southern game of towing the line and bowing to the powers that be - including yourself.

But so sorry, dear, I am uppity Northeast coaster who never learned their place.
Neither have the teachers in that part of that country.  That's why they make more money, and in general, may even be better qualified.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 20, 2007, 06:59:40 PM
Chrys,

If you think I am dumb enough to put you on ignore and let you talk behind my back, you are out of your foolish mind.

I have not asked you to provide the birth registration numbers of your children to prove you are a parent. I have not asked you to provide your certificate allowing you to home school. All I did was offer you some resources to use in home schooling. If you are happy with what you have, so be it. There are plenty of others making good use of my website, one less is no skin off my nose.

If a handful of parents choose to alienate themselves from public schools, it is no different than those who choose to absent themselves from voting.

I am sorry you are ending a bad year of home schooling. It happens. It's an exhausting job.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 07:35:44 PM
Chrys,

If you think I am dumb enough to put you on ignore and let you talk behind my back, you are out of your foolish mind.

I have not asked you to provide the birth registration numbers of your children to prove you are a parent. I have not asked you to provide your certificate allowing you to home school. All I did was offer you some resources to use in home schooling. If you are happy with what you have, so be it. There are plenty of others making good use of my website, one less is no skin off my nose.

If a handful of parents choose to alienate themselves from public schools, it is no different than those who choose to absent themselves from voting.

I am sorry you are ending a bad year of home schooling. It happens. It's an exhausting job.



I am not interested in talking about you behind your back - unlike yourself and your dumb cat games, I'm very ethical in that respect, and everything I have to say about you, I have said to your face. 

I suggest the ignore button, because I don't care this tit for tat stuff.  It's not why I participate on this forum.  Nor do I participate to help you hawk what you're selling.  Especially if you're selling it without posting a license to prove that you are who you say you are.

I had a good year educating at home this year, but I've already told you a number of times- I'm not interested in discussing my personal experiences or offspring with you.

I am interested in sticking to the substance of issues. Yet again, I have raised a number of those issues;  how interesting that you - a supposed teacher - are unable to address one of them.

I think the fact that you just keep making unsubstantiated references to me personally, is but a further reflection on how unprofessional and unethical you are.  And the likelihood that you are no teacher, but some kind of cyberspace flake.

So just keep jabbing away, dearest. 



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 20, 2007, 08:13:42 PM
Chrys,

If you put issue on this board and I didn't responed, it was because: 1) I had no opinion on the matter; 2) my opinion could not be supported with evidence I cared to look up; or 3) I had no interest in the matter.

My deepest opinion on the matter of why parents are "alienated" from public school is because the parents of children are the generation we used to call the "ME" generation about a decade ago. They do not see their children as one among many and sincerely want something "different" for their children. For such people, home schooling is a wonderful resource. I offered certain of my web resources because they were developed specifically for home schooled children. They were expanded for use by any children since.

You know you lie when you insist that I am "selling" my resources. You know I am not. You have been to my website and noted that the site does not even include advertisements from which I could draw a source of funding. What I offer is offered freely to those who choose to use it. I do let people know it is there, since I don't have any source of advertising. Most people say "Thank you", when I give them my card with the web address on it.

For over a year, you have accepted the fact that I am a retired teacher. Why do you now demand I prove it to you? If you do not wish to pursue a "tit for tat", why do you continue with it? If you want me to prove who I am beyond giving you permission to access my educational web site, why don't you first offer proof of who and what you are?

Now, if you want to discuss education with me, propose an issue in which I have an interest, and we'll have at it. These senseless attacks will need to end. They do not constitute a valid proof of your "ethics".



Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 08:50:50 PM
If you put issue on this board and I didn't responed, it was because: 1) I had no opinion on the matter; 2) my opinion could not be supported with evidence I cared to look up; or 3) I had no interest in the matter.

I have posted at length, and repeatedly, on the Falwell brochure.  So I find your "If" disingenuous.  The rest of your position is valid.

My deepest opinion on the matter of why parents are "alienated" from public school is because the parents of children are the generation we used to call the "ME" generation about a decade ago. They do not see their children as one among many and sincerely want something "different" for their children.

I agree with you to some extent on this matter.  But I think there is much more to what is happening in the public school system today.  And do not forget that many teachers are of the generation called the "ME" generation too.

You know you lie when you insist that I am "selling" my resources. You know I am not. You have been to my website and noted that the site does not even include advertisements from which I could draw a source of funding. What I offer is offered freely to those who choose to use it. I do let people know it is there, since I don't have any source of advertising. Most people say "Thank you", when I give them my card with the web address on it.

Spare me this horse manure.  Your website is promotional.  You allegedly make money as a teacher.

If you want me to prove who I am beyond giving you permission to access my educational web site, why don't you first offer proof of who and what you are?

Because I am not selling anything or implicitly asking others to validate who I say I am in order to sell something.  Nor am I seeking your expertise as a parent. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 08:56:46 PM
If you want me to prove who I am beyond giving you permission to access my educational web site, why don't you first offer proof of who and what you are?

Because I am not selling anything or implicitly asking others to validate who I say I am in order to sell something.  Nor am I seeking your expertise as a parent. 

Nor am I asking people to bring their children to a website I created, or asking others to validate who I say I am in order to encourage them - to send their children there.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 09:08:03 PM
I think the Falwell folks are an odd mixture.  In some ways, they are encouraging students to grapple with the basics like math and science.  On the other hand, they are so divorced from, say, real science (e.g. evolutionary biology), that in spite of this disciplined focus, the students may not be learning the science they should (to be an astronaut).  Nor are they teaching, IMO, important critical thinking skills if the message is that students should shy away from frank questions, including those concerning the future, or what an authority other than the school system is saying.  However, I understand their concern for the devaluation of the home.  I think there is a widespread disrespect these days, among educators, for the families of students.  Perhaps though, that was ever the case in public education.  Just that now, parents aren't as willing to put up with it, as they used to be.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 09:13:34 PM
BTW I also think there is a widespread disrespect among parents for the position of educators at times.  Though, I can't say this is as new a phenomenon as people may think either.

It does seem to take different forms at times.  I don't think parents telling teachers to give their kid an A for Harvard was as common a case long ago.  But I do think there were rural areas of, for example, New England, where a cultivated teacher faced all kinds of prejudice in mill towns resenting any representation of "education" and encouraging rebellion for the sake of intefering with the teaching of critical thinking.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: liquidsilver on May 20, 2007, 09:23:45 PM
I've read that home schooled children typically do well through elementary school but their education tends to suffer in middle/high school


Title: Re: Education
Post by: liquidsilver on May 20, 2007, 09:27:52 PM
Also even if the children are given other activities to participate with other children -- their ability to work in groups probably suffers


Title: Re: Education
Post by: liquidsilver on May 20, 2007, 09:40:15 PM
Thanks. Only in terms of my own posting 'addictions'.  It was rough the first couple weeks but I think I've got in under control now.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 09:45:56 PM
I haven't had much experience with homeschoolers.  I suppose it depends on the reason parents have chosen to homeschool.  Both my kids have mentioned that in college freshman year, the homeschoolers are well known.  In all of their classes, they quote at length....usually the Great Books.  But they've also said that by Junior year they seem better able to process information.  Clearly, these children's critical thinking skills develop and improve in college.

If I recall correctly, you once stated your kids were at Ivy League universities.  So I guess there are homeschoolers there.  Their critical thinking skills must have been pretty good, just to get it, would you not say.

The other thing about the Falwell list, most of the kids it's aimed at are in public schools, where they will be exposed to the concepts of basic science....including evolution.  

Good point.  However, I will personally contend (take it or leave it - as I shall take or leave anything anyone else personally contends) that the views in the list reflect sentiments in the far right homeschooling community. 

I"ve been bothered at the use of meditation in phys. ed.  If a child is having problems focusing or can't deal with stress that's one thing, but most children will benefit far more from an hour a day of running around than they will from learning to be "centered."  

TM is used in hospital programs now with heart patients.  There is a plethora of evidence supporting the physical benefits of meditation.

In addition, my unusual public high school experience (in a high school ranked high, nationally) included course work in meditation.  Which was extremely rewarding.  So I disagree with you about its applicability in PE.

There was also an interesting film I saw in last couple of years about Vipassana meditation being used in a prison community;  the benefits there reported by the warden.

Don't be so quick to write it off, lhoffman.  Even conservatives are doing it.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 09:48:25 PM
I've read that home schooled children typically do well through elementary school but their education tends to suffer in middle/high school

I think your info may be off there.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 20, 2007, 09:53:11 PM
Chrys,

For the record: I invite PARENTS and TEACHER to use my website. Some parts are designed for children, and are used by children, but for TWENTY YEARS I have been saying that children should not be on the Internet without oversight by a parent or teacher. I NEVER invite children to use my website without supervision. Even when my website was used by my students in the computer class of a primary school, the students were not allowed to get on the Internet unless I was actively able to supervise them. This is a matter of INTERNET SAFETY. YOU should not let your children on the Internet unless YOU are also actively supervising them. The Internet is not a babysitter.

I am retired. The source of my income is truly none of your business. The website is supported by a charitable foundation, and I have already posted the link to verify it if you wish. The Enabling Support Foundation is dedicated to assisting the disabled and special education. As a form of "reverse inclusion" we invite regular children to enjoy the resources. Now, what charitable activities do you promote? Do you ask your friends to voluteer at your favorite soup kitchen? To pick up trash in your community?

I know nothing about the ME generation among teachers. They are probably there, but I have had no opportunity to know them or judge them. Perhaps they are the teachers you find issue with.







Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 20, 2007, 09:56:02 PM
Liquid,

Laurie probably did read that. I have. The materials to teach middle and high schools subjects have not been very good or easily available in the years past. With online high schools, I suspect the outcome is brighter now than in the past.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 20, 2007, 10:00:31 PM
The source of my income is truly none of your business.

I did not ever say it was my business.  You are bringing up subjects that I am responding to.  That is all.

I know nothing about the ME generation among teachers. They are probably there, but I have had no opportunity to know them or judge them. Perhaps they are the teachers you find issue with.

Ah, I see.  There are "ME" generation parents, but no "ME" generation teachers.  The teachers being born before or after that period of history.

I did not know the American school system had adopted such a policy.




[/quote]


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 20, 2007, 10:06:08 PM
Laurie,

Thanks so very much for the good words about my online books. You referred to the exact children I had in mind when I wrote many of them. Of course, a few of them I did for my own nieces and nephews (grin).

Even as I write, I am under pressure to allow the books to be put on a paid basis. A publisher in South Africa is interested, and the head of the foundation asked me today to consider putting them on a subscription basis. The situation in South Africa will not affect the books on the web, but will extend the books to an audience that does not have good access to the Internet. I have considered the subscription approach before, but am not sure yet that I want to limit the use from kids who are really in need. And, in the midst of my connundrum, comes Chrys, who I once considered a friend, accusing me of doing what I'm being encouraged to do against my own feelings. Sigh!

BTW, I am in the editing stage of a story on Teddy Roosevelt. Want a look at it before it goes on the web? Or would you rather wait until it is ready for the public?




Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 20, 2007, 10:11:16 PM
Chrys,

I didn't say they weren't there. I said I don't know them. Maybe you do, but I don't. I only talk about teachers I know/knew, and those are/were typically very welcoming of parents. Your mileage may vary.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 20, 2007, 10:34:21 PM
Laurie,

I'll let you know when it's in html. It's in word now and has to be sent as an attachment. Bob and Brenda are reviewing it now and will let me know if it needs work. I'd read a book of short stories and found the tale, read a biography of TR, and it gave the tale in a single sentence, but I found a good online source with more details than in the short story. I've never been a horsewoman, so I don't know if I got the clippity-clop exactly right.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 21, 2007, 03:13:38 AM
Alpemberton,

It's just a logical inference.  If there is a given population called “the Me Generation,” I see no reason why, when it comes to parents or teachers from that generation/s, either group should have a corner on its characteristics.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 21, 2007, 03:19:38 AM
Lhoffman,

Your children are very perceptive, I am sure.  Of course, the homeschoolers are the ones with the big ears carrying bibles who don’t know how to talk to anyone because they’ve been locked up in closets and prayer meetings.  Though they go on organized excursions that mimic the real classrooms.  This is what turns them, in general, into concrete operationals.

One can always tell the illegals too you know. 

Perhaps I shall hear more on enlightening assessments from your son's college classrooms.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 21, 2007, 03:26:38 AM
Lhoffman

I expect it may be as good as your husband's opinions on global warming.

So of course it is the truth.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 21, 2007, 03:28:01 AM
ladies .........

as you peck together to pick up the pieces ......

until next time.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 21, 2007, 05:13:27 AM
postscript

alpemberton,

Here’s what might be considered a typical teacher Me Generation statement:

“I have their child in my classroom (fill in the number) hours per week.  How many hours per week do they have their child at home?  SO – who knows their child best? ? ?”

I know -- you've never heard it spoken.  Tis like a church in Virginia.  And especially in the teacher lounges when you've taught 20-30 odd years.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 21, 2007, 06:48:53 AM
Chrys,

I have never been one to spend much time in the teacher's lounge, so I am no expert on what goes on there. You seem to know more about it than I do, so go for it.

As Hillary Clinton once said, "It takes a village to raise a child".


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 21, 2007, 07:38:21 AM
Talk of the teachers' room reminded me, for some odd reason, of an old television program called "Our Miss Brooks."  Do any of you remember it?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 21, 2007, 10:52:16 AM
“I have their child in my classroom (fill in the number) hours per week.  How many hours per week do they have their child at home?  SO – who knows their child best? ? ?”


You lost me. I'm trying to understand the link between the alleged "Me Generation" and what you are implying in the post.

Please explain.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 21, 2007, 01:49:55 PM
alpemberton

your response does not surprise me.

lhoffman

lmao


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 21, 2007, 01:57:00 PM
“I have their child in my classroom (fill in the number) hours per week.  How many hours per week do they have their child at home?  SO – who knows their child best? ? ?”


You lost me. I'm trying to understand the link between the alleged "Me Generation" and what you are implying in the post.

Please explain.

The initial Me Generation reference was made by alpemberton, aka weezo, as to parents who belong to that supposed group.  I mentioned that there must be Me generation teachers, given that there does not seem to be any basis for believing that the characteristics of such a generation discriminate insofar as teachers or parents are concerned.  alpemberton, with many, many years of public school teaching experience, shared that she has never met any such teachers, only such parents.  I gave that statement as an example of what a me generation teacher might typically say (in one form or another).  The view of such teacher indignantly being, that because they have the student in their classroom a higher number of hours per week than the parent has them at home, the teacher knows the student better.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 21, 2007, 02:44:03 PM
The view of such teacher indignantly being, that because they have the student in their classroom a higher number of hours per week than the parent has them at home, the teacher knows the student better.

Well, that's where I got confused, because the child actually spends more time at home than in school.

Of course, his/her parents know them better. But they don't necessarily know their kid's behavior in the school setting, which could be far different than at home.

A competent teacher should know that.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 21, 2007, 03:21:47 PM
Utley,

Not only does the parent not know how the student behaves in school, but they are typically not as knowledgeable of the "usual" behavior patterns of children at the given age/grade level. If the parent has older children, they have had some experience by the time a younger child arrives, but as compared to a teacher with years of experience across perhaps hundreds of students of that age/development level, the teacher is usually the more "expert". No matter the parents' experience level, meeting with the teacher at or near the beginning of the year is crucial for both parent and teacher. I always liked when my incoming ninth graders showed up on registration day with parents introducing them and telling me about the child idiosyncracies.  EACH student is a unique individual and deserves to be treated as such, but uniquenesses that result in disrupting the education of the student and their classmates, or in placing themselves and others in danger has to be changed, not accepted.

I recall an incident when a student would "cop an attitude" instead of doing the assigned work in class. I was accustomed to providing individual assistance, coaching, and was not adverse to some coaxing, to get a student started, and able to complete an assignment. But with students, my best efforts didn't work, and he took home a "F" for his efforts. His mother made an appointment and met with me and the Asst Principal, since he was often sent to the office not only from class, but for problems in the halls, etc. I explained to the mother what was happening in class, and the AP explained where he was running afoul of the expected behavior standards. The mother stated, "I know my son has an attitude problem, but I don't see what it has to do with his grades!" So I explained again that he was not attempting or completing his assignments which were definitely not outside his ability level, and she came back with "You are just prejudiced because he's black." The AP spoke up and assured the mother that he had worked with me for ten years and knew for certain that I was not prejudiced. She replied saying that the AP was himself prejudiced. Shocked, he pointed to his own skin and said, "I am the same color as you!" at which point she replied "No, I am lighter colored than you", held her head high and stomped out. Needless to say, that young man never graduated from high school. 





Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 21, 2007, 03:30:05 PM
The view of such teacher indignantly being, that because they have the student in their classroom a higher number of hours per week than the parent has them at home, the teacher knows the student better.

Well, that's where I got confused, because the child actually spends more time at home than in school.

Of course, his/her parents know them better. But they don't necessarily know their kid's behavior in the school setting, which could be far different than at home.

A competent teacher should know that.

Agreed.  Parents can also provide insight into such classroom behavior if the teacher is apt at developing a positive, non-competitive relationship with parents. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 21, 2007, 05:00:26 PM
The view of such teacher indignantly being, that because they have the student in their classroom a higher number of hours per week than the parent has them at home, the teacher knows the student better.

Well, that's where I got confused, because the child actually spends more time at home than in school.

Of course, his/her parents know them better. But they don't necessarily know their kid's behavior in the school setting, which could be far different than at home.

A competent teacher should know that.

 Agreed.  Parents can also provide insight into such classroom behavior if the teacher is apt at developing a positive, non-competitive relationship with parents. 


Precisely. It's not a competition. it should be a collaboration among all parties--student--parent--teacher--administration--school board---community at large.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 21, 2007, 05:02:02 PM
Utley,

Not only does the parent not know how the student behaves in school, but they are typically not as knowledgeable of the "usual" behavior patterns of children at the given age/grade level. If the parent has older children, they have had some experience by the time a younger child arrives, but as compared to a teacher with years of experience across perhaps hundreds of students of that age/development level, the teacher is usually the more "expert". No matter the parents' experience level, meeting with the teacher at or near the beginning of the year is crucial for both parent and teacher. I always liked when my incoming ninth graders showed up on registration day with parents introducing them and telling me about the child idiosyncracies.  EACH student is a unique individual and deserves to be treated as such, but uniquenesses that result in disrupting the education of the student and their classmates, or in placing themselves and others in danger has to be changed, not accepted.

I recall an incident when a student would "cop an attitude" instead of doing the assigned work in class. I was accustomed to providing individual assistance, coaching, and was not adverse to some coaxing, to get a student started, and able to complete an assignment. But with students, my best efforts didn't work, and he took home a "F" for his efforts. His mother made an appointment and met with me and the Asst Principal, since he was often sent to the office not only from class, but for problems in the halls, etc. I explained to the mother what was happening in class, and the AP explained where he was running afoul of the expected behavior standards. The mother stated, "I know my son has an attitude problem, but I don't see what it has to do with his grades!" So I explained again that he was not attempting or completing his assignments which were definitely not outside his ability level, and she came back with "You are just prejudiced because he's black." The AP spoke up and assured the mother that he had worked with me for ten years and knew for certain that I was not prejudiced. She replied saying that the AP was himself prejudiced. Shocked, he pointed to his own skin and said, "I am the same color as you!" at which point she replied "No, I am lighter colored than you", held her head high and stomped out. Needless to say, that young man never graduated from high school. 





 

Do you feel that you failed or that the student failed?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 21, 2007, 05:06:05 PM
Laurie,

I agreed with the caution in the first article that stated that not all boys prefer the boy stuff, and not all girls prefer the girl stuff.

I am pleased with the court decision in the second article. The inability to afford an attorney keeps a lot of special ed parents from pursuing what is best for their child. Too often, they are placed in public school in a classroom intended for retarded children, totally ignoring their actual intellectual capacity and restricting what they are allowed to learn and when. My nephew was only eight when his school insisted he needed "vocational training", and they put him to busing lunch room tables after lunch as that "vocational training". Andrew has a strong aversion to damp things, like the sponges he was to use on the tables, resulting in him resisting doing the job, resulting in his having to "repeat" his "vocational training" over and over and over ad naseum. Chris tried to reason with them that this was the "wrong" vocational training for him, but to no avail. Later his vocational training was to endlessly sort colored pieces into boxes. The first few times he did it correctly, but they had nothing more advanced to move him to, so they kept giving him the same task over and over until he refused to keep sorting those colored pieces anymore, and the school said he was "failing" his "vocational training" and would be unemployable. I have no idea what job is out there in the public sector that involves endless sorting of colored pieces, and, when asked, neither did the "professionals" who insisted this be in his IEP.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 21, 2007, 05:16:11 PM
Utley,

I will be perfectly frank in saying that it was my failure to reach that student.

I'm not sure what, ten years later, I would do again to make it work, so I'm not sure I learned a lesson from the experience. I was successful with some students who started out with "attitude" problems by finding a common interest with the student and working through that, but this boy, and another about five years later, were beyond my ability to find that connection.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 04:10:48 AM
The mother stated, "I know my son has an attitude problem, but I don't see what it has to do with his grades!" So I explained again that he was not attempting or completing his assignments which were definitely not outside his ability level, and she came back with "You are just prejudiced because he's black." The AP spoke up and assured the mother that he had worked with me for ten years and knew for certain that I was not prejudiced. She replied saying that the AP was himself prejudiced. Shocked, he pointed to his own skin and said, "I am the same color as you!" at which point she replied "No, I am lighter colored than you", held her head high and stomped out. Needless to say, that young man never graduated from high school.  

Now there's a perfect example of a parent who felt alienated, and frankly told the teacher and the principal.

Needless to say, I can see why that parent felt the way they did.

But the teacher and principal are too busy defending themselves and their status quo to find out what is really going on.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 04:12:45 AM
The view of such teacher indignantly being, that because they have the student in their classroom a higher number of hours per week than the parent has them at home, the teacher knows the student better.

Well, that's where I got confused, because the child actually spends more time at home than in school.

Of course, his/her parents know them better. But they don't necessarily know their kid's behavior in the school setting, which could be far different than at home.

A competent teacher should know that.

 Agreed.  Parents can also provide insight into such classroom behavior if the teacher is apt at developing a positive, non-competitive relationship with parents. 


Precisely. It's not a competition. it should be a collaboration among all parties--student--parent--teacher--administration--school board---community at large.

Very well said.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 04:15:26 AM
Lhoffman

Yawn.

You are a pretentious poop.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 22, 2007, 07:03:57 AM
Needless to say, I can see why that parent felt the way they did.

Chrys, If you can see why that parent felt the way they did, how about sharing it so we can all learn something.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 01:28:06 PM
Needless to say, I can see why that parent felt the way they did.

Chrys, If you can see why that parent felt the way they did, how about sharing it so we can all learn something.

Because you are not interested in learning something.

Tell me.  You went through all the rational, required steps.  Why in the world did that mother behave the way she did?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 01:30:15 PM
What did you hope to accomplish at that meeting?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 22, 2007, 02:16:03 PM
Incadove0,


Forums tend to have strongly opinionated people, who often aren't open-minded to those whose views differ from their own.

Lhoffman does not fall into this catergory. In addition to being respectful to other posters, she takes the time to listen and link to resources that others recommend.

I'm not sure what your problem is with her. However, I suggest you take a step backwards, review the thread and if you're being fair-minded, I'd think you'd find more deserving recipients of your barbs.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 02:33:13 PM
David

Good boy.  You said the "right" thing.

You also read quite selectively.  But I am not interested in debating another forum person with you.  Don't you have anything on topic to contribute?

Even your song and dance on race would be more relevant.

So please go put your bunk where the sun doesn't shine either.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 22, 2007, 02:52:24 PM
Now there's a perfect example of a parent who felt alienated, and frankly told the teacher and the principal.

Needless to say, I can see why that parent felt the way they did.

But the teacher and principal are too busy defending themselves and their status quo to find out what is really going on.


You can? Well, if I want to stretch my mind I can too, but from what I've read, it sounds like a troubled, bratty, selfish, disrespectful kid. The mother sounds like she's enabling this behavior. I'm certain she was frustrated with her son's behavior. In addition to the school getting the residual effects of her frustration, she probably blames herself and the father of the child as well. This is all normal thinking. It might not be correct thinking, but it's normal thinking.

Weezo wrote an excellent post describing the incident. Later on, the caring side of her even takes fault for not reaching the boy. I don't often agree with Weezo, but that caring, wanting to instill positiveness in the child attitude of hers is top notch. Weezo, don't be too hard on yourself. Though I understand the sentiment - and I respect it - of you thinking you could have done something differently to get through to the young man. Some people make it virtually impossible to 'reach' them.

Incadove0, I do agree with you that the ME generation would have a close proportionate  membership amongst parents, teachers and  society at large.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 22, 2007, 03:10:49 PM
So please go put your bunk where the sun doesn't shine either.

Incadove0 ... it seems you want to argue and fight, that's fine. The forum is a safe place to do that. Isn't it? Are you this argumentative in person? I would think not. Certainly, hope not.

Anyway, while it may currently be coming across that it's you against most of the forum, you don't fool me. You have major issues within yourself. Otherwise your posts wouldn't have  needless negativity in them. If you were confident in what you have to say, you wouldn't feel the need to throw an insult in at the end of your comments.

Hey, I was going to say, 'I could be wrong .....', but I know I'm not ... I'll just add, Hey, this is a forum ... if there's going to be a place for someone to express their rude, jerky, close-minded, argumentative side ... they chose a good place. Better on the forum, than in real life.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 22, 2007, 03:30:24 PM
There are parents who refuse to see what's in front of their faces.  And, sometimes it's not the fault of parent or the teacher, why else do we see children whose siblings are doing extremely well but who are content to continue along their own self-destructive path?  There are kids out there who refuse to listen to parents or teachers. We can only do the best we can, try new approaches, let them know we're in their court, and hope that life eventually teaches them what they need to know. 

I agree that it's a problem when we seek to blame parent or child or teacher or administrator for the failure of a student. IN the case that weezo described, I felt that it shouldn't have had to come to that, if moves were made to head things off before they reached a crisis level.

Tough kids need fresh starts, and so do their parents---that said, the complexity of an individual child's school experience is not something that can be reduced to a short narrative.

Difficult children don't suddenly emerge in middle school or high school, but they generally have a history. There is often too little articulation to the teacher of an individual student coming in, than there should be. Administrators need to work harder to repair that circumstance.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 03:34:22 PM
David

You're the one who is making this personal so that you can get some pats on the head.

Talk to me when you're really talking, not reacting.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 03:43:54 PM
Now there's a perfect example of a parent who felt alienated, and frankly told the teacher and the principal.

Needless to say, I can see why that parent felt the way they did.

But the teacher and principal are too busy defending themselves and their status quo to find out what is really going on.


You can?


Yes, and I think you should reflect more deeply, if you can't.

Including on your statement and view of the parties here: 

David:  Well, if I want to stretch my mind I can too, but from what I've read, it sounds like a troubled, bratty, selfish, disrespectful kid. The mother sounds like she's enabling this behavior. I'm certain she was frustrated with her son's behavior. In addition to the school getting the residual effects of her frustration, she probably blames herself and the father of the child as well. This is all normal thinking. It might not be correct thinking, but it's normal thinking.[/i]
[emphasis added]




Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 22, 2007, 03:44:17 PM
incadove0,

Youre too funny. You tell me  'to put something where the sun doesn't shine' .... then tell me I'm making it personal. What you write is personal. What I write is personal. There's no way around it.  Anyway, I did respond to your thoughts. If you took the time to read, I even agreed with you on your ME generation thought.

As far as additional thoughts, I couldn't have expressed it better than Mr. Utely or lhoffman did in their recent posts on the subject.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 03:46:42 PM
David

You're too busy defending to hear anything I'm saying.

have to go now.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 22, 2007, 03:55:27 PM
I am trying to remember more about the boy in my narrative. If I remember correctly, he was new to our community and school, had moved here from a large city (Baltimore, Washington, or Philadelphia), and much preferred the life where he had come from. He hated living in a rural community where respect and friendliness were the norm. Where he had come from they were not. David, there was no father in the picture. I don't remember if there had been, or if he had simply been the child of a single mother. I do not remember him having any siblings. I suspect, that the fact that they moved to Blackstone, was because the mother grew up there and moved to the large city to have her own life. Exactly why she moved back, which I may have known at one time, no longer comes to memory.

This was not the only student I had who had spent his earlier school years in one of the large citiies mentioned. It seems that at some time in the past, a lot of young people moved from Blackstone to those cities, and would move back when the neighborhoods in which they were living became too fearful. As far as I remember, this was the only student who had this hard of a time making the adjustment to the rural/small town life.

To be totally honest, the rural kids were typically suspicious and fearful of those who moved from the very large citieis. They did not trust them, assumed they were all drug dealers and criminals. So, he was probably having a hard time making friends in his new community. It is likely that the behavior that did not fit in at our school was the norm where he had come from, which may be why the mother did not see what her son's resistence to learning had to do with his grades. I suspect she was going through as much of an "attitude adjustment" in her neighborhood as he was having in school.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 22, 2007, 04:08:03 PM
It might not be correct thinking, but it's normal thinking.

That's correct. In this case, the parents blaming themself. As lhoffman mentioned children can come from the same households, have received equal love and opportunity, one can excel in almost all that they do, the other can't seem to stay out of  trouble. So while I understand  the importance of the role parents play in the development of a child, I never underestimate the complexity of the individual. The parent can hug, kiss and support over and over again  .... while the child/into grown-up hood endlessly pushes, fights & destroys.

So, It's normal for parents to blame themselves, however it's not always correct.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 22, 2007, 04:41:57 PM

I agree that it's a problem when we seek to blame parent or child or teacher or administrator for the failure of a student. IN the case that weezo described, I felt that it shouldn't have had to come to that, if moves were made to head things off before they reached a crisis level.

Tough kids need fresh starts, and so do their parents---that said, the complexity of an individual child's school experience is not something that can be reduced to a short narrative.

Difficult children don't suddenly emerge in middle school or high school, but they generally have a history. There is often too little articulation to the teacher of an individual student coming in, than there should be. Administrators need to work harder to repair that circumstance.

I think you're right.  It's too bad more school districts don't have programs in place to help early elementary students who are struggling with basic reading and arithmetic skills.  Part of the problem is that that children are passed on (and over) and they begin to expect to fail.  When a child loses faith in himself, it is likely he will begin acting out in the classroom.

I'm not sure that the root of the problem is in basic skills or even where they are from. I think it is in having a shared commitment to learning and a shared view of respect within the learning environment. I think that comes from the work of the administration to be inclusive and respectful or the staff and the parents and the students, so that the norm is not one of suspicion and distrust, but one of mutual respect. In that atmosphere students can learn best, and also new students can be welcomed into the school--regardless where they are from or what their individual skill level may be.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 08:06:07 PM
David

What exactly are you disagreeing with besides the fact that I told you to go shove it when you tried to play Forum Nanny on behalf of another participant you were kissing butt to? 

You pretend to be so polite but you are extraordinarily rude and judgmental.  What gives you the right to say that you know what is going on inside of me - an anonymous poster - personally?  You came on the forum and tried to start a fight about a passing remark that didn’t even concern you.  You’ve been attacking me repeatedly, fighting about things I haven’t even said, and pretending that you’re not.

This is a disgusting series of comments to me about a parent you know very little about:

Well, if I want to stretch my mind I can too, but from what I've read, it sounds like a troubled, bratty, selfish, disrespectful kid. The mother sounds like she's enabling this behavior. I'm certain she was frustrated with her son's behavior. In addition to the school getting the residual effects of her frustration, she probably blames herself and the father of the child as well. This is all normal thinking.

What is clear to me is that the meeting was doomed before she walked through the door.

What is clear to me is that it was an extremely difficult meeting for that parent.  Or don’t you think she was worried sick about her son and whether or not he graduated?




Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 08:15:11 PM
About a parent and youth, I should say.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 08:24:09 PM
Indeed, David, if you were a teacher, I'd say that post was yet another good example of a typical ME generation teacher phrase.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 08:26:40 PM
And another example of the kind of educational thinking I refered to earlier that feeds just the kind of alienation that parent was expressing.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 08:35:59 PM
Incadove, I suspect I know where you're coming from.  I'm a mother, just like you, and when I suspect that people are criticizing my parenting skills, I bite back.  I suspect you took my comments on homeschooling as criticism of you.  

And you have to see the irony here...a liberal defending homeschooling against a conservative.  There are positives and negatives in all methods of schooling...public, private, home.  With my own kids, I tended to want to expose  the negative in their educations so that they could be on guard enough to give it the trouncing it deserved.  

Given the general conservative and religious outlook of most homeschoolers, I would love to know how you managed to put together or find a curriculum.  


lhoffman

I do respect your posting strengths and appreciate your efforts at courtesy.  When you are not defending your husband or children's opinions, I find you unusually clear sighted.  However, I do think you are clearly stereotyping homeschoolers, even if you don't see what you're saying as "negative". 

You keep saying that the community is conservative.  That was certainly true at one period, but I am not sure that is any longer the case;  I don't know the stats these days, but the literature I've read indicates diversity overall, the population changing greatly.  And the parents I know "doing it" are far from conservative.  I do have contact with the fundamentalists, but not in much of any personal way, since they look to keep their environment upright and "Christian."

I am what they call eclectic in approach.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 22, 2007, 08:56:41 PM
Inca,

Perhaps you are right, that the mother was "worried sick" about her son graduating. If so, she did not convey that impression at all. She conveyed the impression that we were not to discipline her son, and just to accept his behavior as his "right". His behavior may have been acceptable in some large, far away city, but it was not acceptable in our community. The AP and I gave my students a lot of latitude in behavior as long as they were making an attempt at learning, but, in the absence of any attempt to learn, he gave us nothing to work with. His mother may have hoped he would graduate from high school, but she was doing nothing to help that to happen. I was not going to "pass him along" as may have been done in the past. It's not the type of teacher I am/was.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 09:12:54 PM
lhoffman

I don't go with the curriculum I think you're refering to.  Parents are not limited here;  one can even use the district's material if they wish. 

To be familiar with the thinking in home education, I would read some of the popular theorists, if you haven't already. 

I think they tend to appeal across the board, whether one is conservative or liberal. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on May 22, 2007, 09:30:12 PM
My fear about home schooling is that the religious right will be raising brain crisped monsters who will try to take control of the US Goverment; that is their stated goal.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 09:31:38 PM
Inca,

Perhaps you are right, that the mother was "worried sick" about her son graduating. If so, she did not convey that impression at all. She conveyed the impression that we were not to discipline her son, and just to accept his behavior as his "right". His behavior may have been acceptable in some large, far away city, but it was not acceptable in our community. The AP and I gave my students a lot of latitude in behavior as long as they were making an attempt at learning, but, in the absence of any attempt to learn, he gave us nothing to work with. His mother may have hoped he would graduate from high school, but she was doing nothing to help that to happen. I was not going to "pass him along" as may have been done in the past. It's not the type of teacher I am/was.

Weezo,

I don't profess to have the answers.  Or do I assert that the mother was taking the best approach by a long shot.  Just that, it appears to me all parties were caught in a system that made what happened, well, inevitable, in a way.

The mother obviously felt that she was in some type of bind -- between a rock and a hard place -- with you and the principal, and no one on her side, or her son's.  Whether or not that was the case seems irrelevant.  And obviously, at that meeting, she did not have the skills to express herself in a way that might have served her son's best interests, even if she had those best interests at heart.

I had a meeting with a principal and a teacher once.  I did have those skills, and the principal was unusual in that they took my side and I got pretty much what I wanted for my child.  But it was very difficult to walk into that meeting.  And I wasn't anywhere near the position that the parent in your story was in.

I'm not saying that the principal in your tale should have taken the parent's side against you.  I even kind of wonder why this principal wasn't meeting privately with the student instead.  Sitting down to say, "O.K., this and that has been going on.  Now what do we need to do to get you to graduate?  What are some other ways to get you there that you could be doing?"

Some of the reasoning that you present from this school reminds me a bit of the border dispute.  The restrictionists say, well, look you have to obey the law.  You didn't, so go back to go.  How can we let lawbreakers through?  What message does that send others?

That doesn't seem right there, nor does it seem right with this young man.

Maybe he needed a special path.  Maybe he needed some special opportunities.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 09:35:18 PM
My fear about home schooling is that the religious right will be raising brain crisped monsters who will try to take control of the US Goverment; that is their stated goal.

I understand.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 22, 2007, 10:55:57 PM
Inca,

I was a special ed teacher, so he was already in a "special path". The work he wouldn't do was as close as I could make it to meet his needs. He would have been there after I got a computer, so the worksheets and assignments were tailored to individual learning needs. In addition, we were spending one day a week communicating with kids all over the globe, which was, to most of the kids a pretty big deal. We had some donated computers in the classroom and I had written programs specific to the needs of my students.

In addition, we had a vocational school available to students in 11th and 12th grade. I was able to get some of the younger students to go there in 10th grade, if there was a strong likelihood they would succeed there, and if there was a chance that it was the only way to get them to graduation. Either he was not interested, or his behavior was such that he would not have been eligible to go.

If I am remembering correctly, the meeting was originally between the mother and the assistant principal, who was in charge of discipline. Perhaps it was a mandatory meeting because his discipline problems had exceeded some number set by the school board that required a parent meeting. I was called into the meeting because she was apparently insisting that I was at fault. I had not met her previously. She did not come to the open house before school started. Apparently, she also did not come at the open house just after report cards. She had come during the school day, and I had to leave class to join the meeting.

I'm sorry I have forgotten so many details of this incident. I brought it up because of the mother's comment that she knew her son had an "attitude", but didn't see how this was a factor at school. And, of course, he parting shot at the AP that he wasn't "like her", she was lighter colored. It was as an example of how out-of-touch some parents are when they are faced with the consequences of how they have raised their child. Perhaps if she had moved back to Blackstone earlier, we could have done more for her son.







Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 22, 2007, 11:54:09 PM
Weezo

Maybe he eventually got it together.

I went to a big high school with lots of different students and teachers, lots avenues for students.  Personnel I saw scoop some people up before they went through the cracks.  Not that students didn't fall there either.  But he wouldn't have just fallen on the shoulders of one program or one teacher.

Money and resources.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 23, 2007, 12:18:35 AM
I brought it up because of the mother's comment that she knew her son had an "attitude", but didn't see how this was a factor at school. And, of course, he parting shot at the AP that he wasn't "like her", she was lighter colored. It was as an example of how out-of-touch some parents are when they are faced with the consequences of how they have raised their child. Perhaps if she had moved back to Blackstone earlier, we could have done more for her son.

I'm not clear on the behavioral aspect of how you graded in that program. 

Perhaps she sincerely did not understood herself, however she expressed it.  This is a certain logic to what she said.  For example, one can ace a test in math, without that having anything to do with whether or not one is acting out with a teacher.  Maybe this is what was going on in her mind .....  though I am hearing you say that he simply wasn't doing the assignments.

Or she was just been a Me Generation sort.  Telling the teacher how to grade, when it was none of her business.

Clearly however she was a parent in crisis.  Those were intense things to say during a meeting, IMO.  The remark to the principal sounded to me like she was expressing a feeling of betrayal by him.

I am getting that you'll defend him to the end, this southern community being tight, but perhaps he should have done more for her son.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 23, 2007, 12:22:34 AM
'scuse the typos.  Wrong glasses.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 23, 2007, 12:45:56 AM
I mean, it does sound a little bit like you had your way of doing things down there, and these urban outsiders came in and weren't conforming.  And the school didn't really know what to do with them - they were different than what they were used to.

That is not to justify the student or mother's behavior. 

But I could certainly see how it would add to a family's feeling of alienation from the district.

Perhaps the mother worked evenings and had trouble with her schedule -- why she came in only during the day.  Maybe her rudeness created the sense that it was only selfishness on her part.

Or she was just arrogant and treated teachers like her servants.

But I do think it sounds like you did what you could. 



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 23, 2007, 06:54:58 AM
Inca,

Thank you for saying you think I did all I could for the boy. I felt like I did all I could.

His grades were based on whether he completed assignment and how he did on test. The tests were weekly. The grades were only based on his behavior to the extent that he refused to do the work either in class or at home at his leisure.

You are right that the school tended to have higher standards of behavior than an urban school. This enabled us to focus on the learning. It is why I enjoyed teaching there. I could actually TEACH and see students who had been stuck at one level through their middle school years, begin to make progress during high school.

If I remember correctly, she did not work, but lived on a welfare check. This may have been her motivation to keep the boy in school rather than suspended for discipline problem. Virginia schools require student to remain in school until they either graduate, or turn 18. He was, as were many of my students, older than usual for entering high school.

It was a rather small school. There were 600-700 students in grade 9-12, and the population is still at that number today. Suburban sprawl has not progressed out here as yet. I may be only ten years away, since it is becoming a factor in Amelia, which is between us and Chesterfield, which has, in the years since I moved to Virginia changed totally from rural to suburban. We were not equipped to work with urban problem. We had no social workers in any of the country schools, one psychologist who administered tests, and three special ed teacher, one for the retarded and two of us for the learning disabled population, which was everyone with a disability who was not retarded. The three town that, along with the farm kids, make up the school population, are the classic American small towns, not very different from small towns in, say Pennsylvania, where I grew up.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 23, 2007, 12:18:31 PM
MrUtley...Parents and teachers should both be seeking the best solution for the student.  This is where mutual respect enters in. 

I think that the administration ought to enter in only as a last resort.  Two reasons.  First, many people never get over the feeling they had as little kids when they were called to the principal's office.  A parent who is having a disagreement with a teacher is going to feel outnumbered in a meeting with the principal and the teacher.  Second, principals will "side" more often with the teacher than with the parent.  It is natural to want to keep peace with one's collegues.   

If a third party must be called in, better to consult someone off-site.

I'm not asking for them to be called in. I'm saying be there ahead of time, so there is no need to be called in.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 23, 2007, 12:21:25 PM
I am what they call eclectic in approach.

So, you have no firm footing from which to launch? You have no philosophical framework through which you filter your thoughts and then determine your course of action?

More's the pity.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 23, 2007, 03:24:59 PM
MrUtley...I guess I don't know how these things can be predicted.  There are many problems that are predictable, and in that case, the school should be practicing prevention.  I may have misinterpreted the problems you were thinking of, but in general, if you catch kids who are having a difficult time with basic skills in the early grades, they are less likely to be in trouble later.  Students who feel comfortable with their skills are generally not discipline problems unless something out of the ordinary occurs. 

The student Anne/Weezo mentioned was a transfer.  It is quite possible that no one knew what the situation was until it was too late.  At the beginning, it may have seemed that the student was having trouble adjusting.  Children are surprisingly resilient; sometimes all that's needed is time and the problem works itself out nicely.   I think in this case, and others like it, it would be good to have a third party, off-site, so that the parent doesn't feel ganged up on.  Facing a principal and teacher together can be quite intimidating. 


All I am saying is that a learning community that is organized to accommodate change is one in which it is clear to everyone what their role is...

I'm not blaming weezo. I'm not blaming a "lack of basic skills" or any "adjustment disorder" on the part of the student.

I'm saying that the school had a responsibility to integrate that family into the school ASAP. Seems to me that they waited until there was a crisis.

Too late.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 23, 2007, 04:03:46 PM
I'm saying that the school had a responsibility to integrate that family into the school ASAP.

Thankfully in the schools my daughter's have attended, I think the schools are terrific. If there's a parent/school problem, it's almost certain it's the parent who's the problem.

Also,  it's just as much, probably more of a responsibility for the family/student tp intergrate themself into the school community.... hopefully in a positive way ... probably in an average way .... and hopefully not in a detrimental way.  There's a saying, 'it only takes a few to ruin it for the many', there is no clearer example of this than a troublemaking kid in a school.

From what I know about Weezo, whatever part she was involved in, it's the parent/child who were the problem.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 23, 2007, 04:25:14 PM
From what I know about Weezo, whatever part she was involved in, it's the parent/child who were the problem.

I am referring to behaviorial issues.

Here's a scenario,  what do you think?


A few weeks back it was National Pot Day. There's was talk amongst the kids at school to wear green on that day. When National Pot Day occurred, all the kids who wore green were called down to the principals office. My daughter happened not to wear green. However, let's say on that day, not giving any thought to National Pot Day, she did wear green. If she had gotten called down, I wouldn't have been happy. OTOH, I must say that if she had wore green because it was National Pot Day, I would have let her know that it was not-smart/ unnecessarily troubling thing to do, and that even though as an American she has a right to wear what she wishes, the school has a right and a responsibility not to allow the promotion of obviously negative, in this case illegal materials.

Who judges who wore green for what reasons? Not an easy call. Actually impossible. I would have called down the kids who had marijuana symbolisn on their clothing, I would not have called down all kids wearing green.

David




Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 23, 2007, 06:25:15 PM
From what I know about Weezo, whatever part she was involved in, it's the parent/child who were the problem.

I am referring to behaviorial issues.

Here's a scenario,  what do you think?


A few weeks back it was National Pot Day. There's was talk amongst the kids at school to wear green on that day. When National Pot Day occurred, all the kids who wore green were called down to the principals office. My daughter happened not to wear green. However, let's say on that day, not giving any thought to National Pot Day, she did wear green. If she had gotten called down, I wouldn't have been happy. OTOH, I must say that if she had wore green because it was National Pot Day, I would have let her know that it was not-smart/ unnecessarily troubling thing to do, and that even though as an American she has a right to wear what she wishes, the school has a right and a responsibility not to allow the promotion of obviously negative, in this case illegal materials.

Who judges who wore green for what reasons? Not an easy call. Actually impossible. I would have called down the kids who had marijuana symbolisn on their clothing, I would not have called down all kids wearing green.

David




well, expalin what you would call them down for?

The Supreme Court has pretty much made it clear that unless a student's clothing is causing a disruption in the school and taking away from learning, the student is free to wear what they want--in the manner of speech.

And when those kids were called down, did there happen to be a good reason for it? And a constitutional one---assuming this is a public school?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 23, 2007, 09:22:00 PM
The kids called down that day were called down because they were wearing green. As I mentioned I wouldn't have called them down. I would have called down children on that day or any day students wearing a marijuana leaf on their shirt. I don't know how it would hold up in court but I think a school- in this case a public school-  has a right not to allow students wearing clothing promoting drugs.

Do you thiunk a student should be allowed to wear a shirt pictured with lines of cocaine? I think not.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 23, 2007, 09:39:38 PM
Utley

No, that's not what eclectic means in home education or education in general.

But I understand why you make these statements.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 23, 2007, 09:40:43 PM
Wearing o' the Green on National Pot Day could be making a statement that you support the drug culture,which could be construed as "disruptive", especially if the kids are too busy checking out the green to pay attention to class, then it could violate the supreme court decision you can wear anything.

I would hope that the school had the decency to put something on the intercom, morning message, or whatever communcation is used, to let students know that wear o' the green is going to be a problem tomorrow. If they didn't do that, they probably don't have a leg to stand on, since the kids can say that it was just the color hanging in their closet! The only shirt clean, etc. And that could be an good and effective argument.

Of course, if they rounded up all the kids wearing green and searched them for some stash, I would not know how the supreme court would react to that. In once sense they are declaring their support for pot, but on the other hand, would the wearing o' the green be sufficient evidence for a search? legally?

I cannot picture any of the schools I worked in doing what happened in David's daughter's school. The principal would probably frown at any teacher who showed up wearing o' the green, but probably would have ignored it with the kids unless some other behavior was going along with it. The principals at Nottoway have always reminded kids about things not to do. Including bringing hunting rifles to school during hunting season. The intercom at the end of the day, to remind, and again in the morning to remind again and tell them to go home, leave the rifles and return to school. Any that were seen on the parking lot were added to the sheriff's collection. But the kids were given lots of warnings to prevent that from happening.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 24, 2007, 06:44:08 AM
The kids called down that day were called down because they were wearing green. As I mentioned I wouldn't have called them down. I would have called down children on that day or any day students wearing a marijuana leaf on their shirt. I don't know how it would hold up in court but I think a school- in this case a public school-  has a right not to allow students wearing clothing promoting drugs.

Do you thiunk a student should be allowed to wear a shirt pictured with lines of cocaine? I think not.

David

On the surface of what you have written the school's out of line. What state is this? 

 The Supreme Court has pretty much ruled that the unless the school officials had written down and published rules that green can not be worn on "Pot Day", and regularly enforced that rule, or it was clear that by wearing green the school learning environment would be severely of unnecessarily impaired or disrupted, then it stands to reason they have done nothing but violate First Amendment rights.  :-\


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 25, 2007, 03:57:11 AM
Weezo would have obvious reasons for her personal feelings about the parent in question.  After all, she’s human.  But in looking at education, one should evaluate the situation more comprehensively.

You, David, are still framing the issues in terms of some party being at fault or being to blame.  And sure, once the kid is out of the high school, they are indeed the parent’s problem.

This is not an effective problem-solving approach though, IMO.  And it too often feeds the dynamic that is one of the big difficulties in the school system today.  IMHO.

Though he (the tossed student) may be some other parent’s sigh of relief (if your child was sitting in that classroom that he was continuously disrupting).

But how can anyone effectively evaluate what’s going on if everyone has to cover their butt?

The truth of the matter is that you (David) know virtually nothing about this parent’s life, their concerns, or their child.  You have some educationalese box to conveniently explain and drop off the entire scenario.  The teacher likely knows something, and in this story, likely did do her best.  But all of that is irrelevant in solving the bigger problems – including why this student ended up dropping out of high school, instead of finishing, in the first place.  Including why increasing numbers of parents, unlike yourself, are dissatisfied (and not pleased) with what is going on in the districts, and increasing numbers are taking their children out.

Here is a student where we know more about the mother than the young man himself.  Has anyone been meeting regularly to speak with him on a personal basis to talk about his future?  Would that go on in a well financed suburban (or even urban) school? 

No.

Is that an attack on the teacher? 

No.

Is that a criticism of the assistant principal - who in this case would be responsible for doubling as a guidance counselor?

Possibly.

Black, single parent on welfare, no one knows the father, accusing the teacher and the assistant principal (who should be filing the role of guidance counselor) of racism in one butt-covering climactic meeting before the system tosses her child onto the street. 

Who could be less sympathetic?  Why indeed should America care?  Surely this parent is uncaring and possibly insane.

The only positive note in this story, besides the concern of the teacher who seems essentially helpless in the face of the system, is the notion that this young man may have finally gotten it together and even surpassed her successful students. 

Now there’s a person to track down and find out about.

And be happy if he really did.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 25, 2007, 04:08:56 AM
And if he really did, find out why.

But, if the system has to justify that they had good reason for tossing this never-do-well who is bound to fail anyway, there shall be an interest in finding someone who failed, not someone who succeeded, or even surpassed the expectations around others.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 25, 2007, 06:13:55 AM
Inca,

You give me hope that perhaps he did turn out all right. I am pretty sure that, after he dropped out, he moved, with or without his mother, back to the urban area he left. There, he may have found employment, or perhaps went into an illegal business for the quick profits. If he went the employment route, he may have gotten some direction in his life and gone back to school at night and completed his education. It is possible. But, to be honest, with his attitude, it is also possible he let the attitude dominate him and either had an early death on the streets, or took a life and is spending the rest of his life in prison. I have wracked my brain the last few days in hopes of remembering his name so perhaps I could find out what happened to him, but to no avail.

If his mother had not had, herself, so much "attitude", we (the school family and the community) could have reached out to her and perhaps provided some help in turning the boy around. But, we needed her. She made herself unavailable. Perhaps if we had had guidance counselors with the time to work on actual guidance, it may have helped. Perhaps if the community had had a decent mental health facility, it may have helped. But, it is a small community with limited resources, so we didn't.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 25, 2007, 08:34:25 AM
Weezo

Maybe the mother's attitude served them more positively in the bigger city setting. 

Though I agree, the picture is sober, especially considering that 75% of young black men today are unemployed.

I am guessing the parent was light years from what was going on in the school.  It’s challenging even for involved parents to “get” what might be happening in a given classroom dynamic. 

Sounds like you reached out;  though I suppose it's a long shot, I hope you remember more and are able to find some good news.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 25, 2007, 08:48:33 AM
Weezo/postscript

Your story reminded me of a time I contacted a teacher about a grade given for behavior that was suddenly different. 

I spoke with her at length in order to understand what was going on in the classroom.  But it took a lot of patience, critical thinking, another meeting, and a visit to the actual setting in order to see and analyze what was happening in the classroom at that time.

These were steps I pursued independently of the teacher.  Including the classroom visit, for which I asked her if that would be o.k.  She thanked me later and said she had never seen such a sudden change in what was going on with a student.

It was a very simple issue, but it took a lot of effort to understand and address, given the logistics of that environment and what I was not familiar with.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 25, 2007, 09:29:18 AM
Weezo/postscript 2

My point being that you had a mountain in front of you that wasn't going to move.  When you mentioned the grading system, and I asked you a question, and you gave me an answer, I could see many, many more questions from the point of view of a parent pursuing graduation goals for their child, and, at that meeting just for starters.  IMO, at a glance, it seems like you and the mother would have had to sit down together, putting heads together, for quite a bit of work and focus.

It doesn't look like that could have possibly happened, given what you've described about everything.  Though willingness was certainly not the issue.  And I don't see that mother as being at fault in any related respect.

off.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 25, 2007, 02:32:30 PM
Inca,

I think you said a mouthful when you said that the mother's and the son's attitudes were probably a good thing when they were in the urban environment, but seriously detrimental when they moved to a rural area. The Asst Principal was a very good man. Native to the community, he had been a professional before the integration of the schools, and was a wonderful help to me as a new teacher, in what was to me a new environment. I had grown up in a small city in PA, lived in Richmond, a larger city, then, after a business career, and a stint in college, moved to a rural area to teach. I had much to learn on my feet, and, since I was the only LD teacher in the school, had no colleagues to learn from. I was determined to see my students make academic progress even when I was told that I would be considered a success if I just kept my students out of everyone else's hair.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 25, 2007, 05:59:12 PM
Weezo

What you say about the principal doesn’t surprise me.  The stage was set. 

Enter mother left.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 25, 2007, 06:43:47 PM
The truth of the matter is that you (David) know virtually nothing about this parent’s life, their concerns, or their child.

I know enough to know that the child has behavorial problems, when his mom attended the school while she recogized the problem, she put the blame on the school, topping it off with accusations of racism.

While I'd agree I need first hand knowledge to give a more detailed description of my thoughts on this particular mother-son team, from what I've heard, the people most responsible for turning around the child's current behavior and educational difficulties  is the child and the mom.

Except for the fact that Weezo -because she's a kind hearted person- thought 'maybe' she could have done more, from what I read, the school did what they could, the reason for difficulties came from the student/mom side.

I'm certain its not the first, if student continued education, not the last school he had difficulties in.

As far as the kids future, Who knows?  School is not for everyone. Maybe something captured the students mind and inspired him.  He may have went on to accomplish great things. But, when it came to that school, at that time, on that particular instance, from what i heard .... call it fault, blame, difficult circumstances, call it whatever you wish, I repeat, IMO, the reason for difficulties came from the student/mom side

Blaming schools and teachers is much easier for some parents than recognizing their child's flaws.

If you don't like the word blame, put the word responsibility in its place.


Also, while admittingly I could be wrong and understand their will be some rotten eggs,  I believe the  vast majority of teachers and schools do care and have the best interest of the students at heart. 


Inca, do you or have you home schooled your children? If I had to guess, I'd say yes.

David




Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 25, 2007, 06:49:52 PM
Learn: still waiting to find out what Dixieland state it is that you live in that is ignoring the Constitution.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 25, 2007, 06:53:31 PM
My daughter's have gone to the same exact schools, one doesn't try very hard, the other is ranked #1 in her class with a 99% average.

I never blame the school for my educationally non- caring daughter's uninspiring performance, I blame my daughter, followed by myself.

As I mentioned, I'm happy with my child's schools, however, even if I wasn't,  it's up  my daughter (mostly) with my help to make the necessary changes to improve on her educational accomplishments.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 25, 2007, 07:05:32 PM
David

I agree that, in the scenario, the described mother blamed others in certain ways.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 25, 2007, 07:15:23 PM
Mr. Utley,

I didn't answer your question because it  sounds like you were interested enough to pursue it further. I have no interest in causing my school district any problems.

I brought it up in conversation for forum purposes.    While I thought the school was wrong, it's not an important enough issue for me to make a big fuss over.  If anyone wants to   make an issue of it, I'll leave it up to a parent who's kid as called down.

BTW, I do get involved from time to time. I must say the few times i did, I'm happy to say I was well received and I acheived the goals I sought. One was spear heading the effort to have the National Scrabble Tournament put into all my neighborhoods Middle Schools, the second was confusion over the cheerleading team . At first there were twenty cheerleaders, then due to miscommunication from the school,  there was forty. I was the only parent out of 20 girls who made the first team willing to welcome the other 20 girls to all be on one team.  There was a lot of talk of 'kids need to learn how to lose', 'there should be a first and second team', yada, yada, yada ... by the time I was done, all 40 girls were on one team, seperated into two groups. However not 1st and second team. IMO, that would have been detrimental. I didn't want 20 girls thinking they were on a team that was less than. The two teams were mixed amongst all 40 girls, not giving preference to when they were chosen. Unlike the other 19 parents concerned about their daughter's 'winning/ making the first team', I was concerned about the overall being of all the children involved, not just my own.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 25, 2007, 07:16:10 PM
My daughter's have gone to the same exact schools, one doesn't try very hard, the other is ranked #1 in her class with a 99% average.

I never blame the school for my educationally non- caring daughter's uninspiring performance, I blame my daughter, followed by myself.

As I mentioned, I'm happy with my child's schools, however, even if I wasn't,  it's up  my daughter (mostly) with my help to make the necessary changes to improve on her educational accomplishments.

David

Never blame yourself or your daughter.  Step back and see the script.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 25, 2007, 07:22:17 PM
Never blame yourself or your daughter.  Step back and see the script.

If you don't like the word blame, the main person responsible for my daughter making the most of her educational opportunities is my daughter, followed by my wife and myself.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 25, 2007, 07:32:53 PM
Mr. Utley,

I didn't answer your question because it  sounds like you were interested enough to pursue it further. I have no interest in causing my school district any problems.

I brought it up in conversation for forum purposes.    While I thought the school was wrong, it's not an important enough issue for me to make a big fuss over.  If anyone wants to   make an issue of it, I'll leave it up to a parent who's kid as called down.

BTW, I do get involved from time to time. I must say the few times i did, I'm happy to say I was well received and I acheived the goals I sought. One was spear heading the effort to have the National Scrabble Tournament put into all my neighborhoods Middle Schools, the second was confusion over the cheerleading team . At first there were twenty cheerleaders, then due to miscommunication from the school,  there was forty. I was the only parent out of 20 girls who made the first team willing to welcome the other 20 girls to all be on one team.  There was a lot of talk of 'kids need to learn how to lose', 'there should be a first and second team', yada, yada, yada ... by the time I was done, all 40 girls were on one team, seperated into two groups. However not 1st and second team. IMO, that would have been detrimental. I didn't want 20 girls thinking they were on a team that was less than. The two teams were mixed amongst all 40 girls, not giving preference to when they were chosen. Unlike the other 19 parents concerned about their daughter's 'winning/ making the first team', I was concerned about the overall being of all the children involved, not just my own.

David

I find it interesting that you profess caring for your kids, yet are willing to let their rights as citizens be tossed aside.

I would never do anything to endanger another poster... I was just curious about the STATE you live in---not your personal life---or your school...

You are aware of First Amendment rights.

Schools can't suspend you for wearing a green shirt.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 25, 2007, 07:36:04 PM
David

I think you're missing my point.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 25, 2007, 08:34:17 PM
David,

I don't know how old your daughter is, or how intelligent, but very often a "non-caring" student is a learning disabled student. Consider asking the school to administer some tests - the WISC IQ tests, if it shows a significant difference between Verbal and Performance IQ is indicative of a learning disability. The difference, if supported by achievement tests that are not commenserate with her overall IQ could indicate a learning disability. It is also possible that she is suffering from depression, or some other mild mental disorder.

David, I'm not trying to butt into your business. You know your daughter better than I could sitting here at my keyboard, but I do know that very often, when a regular teacher mentioned that a student in their class was "lazy", and testing was done, more often than not, the student ended up in services for a learning disability. If it was severe enough, they were in my class, if not, they received services in the regular class. Give it some thought at least.

Anne in Virginia


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 25, 2007, 09:38:36 PM
David,

I don't know how old your daughter is, or how intelligent, but very often a "non-caring" student is a learning disabled student. Consider asking the school to administer some tests - the WISC IQ tests, if it shows a significant difference between Verbal and Performance IQ is indicative of a learning disability. The difference, if supported by achievement tests that are not commenserate with her overall IQ could indicate a learning disability. It is also possible that she is suffering from depression, or some other mild mental disorder.

David, I'm not trying to butt into your business. You know your daughter better than I could sitting here at my keyboard, but I do know that very often, when a regular teacher mentioned that a student in their class was "lazy", and testing was done, more often than not, the student ended up in services for a learning disability. If it was severe enough, they were in my class, if not, they received services in the regular class. Give it some thought at least.

Anne in Virginia

The WISC is overused and doesn't yield reliable results. used to easily place kids in special ed....there could be lots of reasons for a kid to underperform in school...explore as many avenues as possible, but the best way is to build from the strengths the student has, as oppose to strictly targetting "weaknesses".


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 25, 2007, 10:10:34 PM
I find it interesting that you profess caring for your kids, yet are willing to let their rights as citizens be tossed aside.

I find it interesting that you equate me not wanting to make a 'big issue' out of the kids wearing green incident with not caring for kids. If I thought like that I'd be accusing people of racism because they refuse to say LEARN - Lets End All Racism Now. I'd be presumptuous and wrong if I thought that way. The same way I think you are in attempting to mix the two.

BTW, I agree with many of your thoughts, including the last one where you mentioned there can be many reasons why a child can be underperforming.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 25, 2007, 10:38:12 PM
As far as my 'average' in school performing daughter, there's no learning disability and I doubt it's peer pressure. In regard to peer pressure she's older by six years. If she was the younger one and the older one was excelling, I think peer pressure would be more of a possibility.

Average in this case is 85%in HS, with a 2.9 GPA first year in college. For me its not about grades, its about giving it your best effort.

When I speak of my daughters, I'm speaking of their educational abilities only. I use them as an example of how the main responsibility of how a child performs in school lies within the child/student themself.

I can understand how Inca doesn't like me using the word blame. We live in a blaming society. I hate blaming. I'll use myself as an example. My neighbor down the block went to the same public schools I did, all the way through HS. He studied, did well,went on to Harvard, I didn't study, had a 80 something average and went to communitny college. I had the same opportunities this young man had. I didn't take advantage of them. For that, I blame myself, I fault myself. If one doesn't like to blame or fault, I'll term it differently, I was irresponsible with the educational opportunities available to me.

Unfortunately, a few years after graduating, my neighbor committed suicide.

Ah life, who's to judge what matters?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on May 26, 2007, 04:50:57 AM
David

I agree with your characterization of our society.  Sadly, it probably influenced what happened to your friend.

My views on scripts harken back to high school, reading Chekhov and Ibsen in my Billy Jack like program.  One of the benefits of such alternative education then, was that students often developed a lot of inner motivation;  a strong sense of responsibility for their own education.  I became an extremely independent learner not too far along in high school.  This greatly impacted my college experience too; my ability to do well in more traditional environments.

Needless to say, throwing people in the water also sees a few drownings.

If your daughter is in college though, maybe she just needs to a sink a little on her own before she starts doing the crawl.

But of course, I don’t know your daughter.

I think I owe you an apology for one comment before (probably not the one you're thinking of).  Though being a city sorta guy, you seemed to handle fine.

Kudos.


Anne and Lhoffman

Not bad there either.

Got to split for now.


;-)


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 26, 2007, 06:49:18 AM
David,

Your older daughter may be a chip off the old block! If she is in college, there is nothing to be gained by looking for a learning disability - she has accomplished what the goal of special ed is.

Yes, there could be many reasoon for a average child to be happy that way. My second son was, but ended up excelling as an adult after schooling was finished. It is hard to predict how children will work out.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 26, 2007, 08:22:47 PM
The real question when a child becomes an adult, whether she is straight A  or solid C is "does she like herself...."  That is a far better measure of success than grades.

Some kids get a project to do and have two weeks to get done. Some start working on the project immediately and put significant effort into their work. Others leave the project until the very last minute, scrambling to put something presentable together. Simply, the kids who put in the time and effort are more likely to excel in school. While there are no studies, probably more likely to succeed business wise in the future. The same qualities that go into giving that extra effort or proscrastinating most likely carry on until adulthood.

As far as does he/she liking her/himself ...... sounds nice .... one does need to like/love themself ....   the hope would be that their loving themself with a goodness inside of them. Saddam Hussein most likely liked/loved himself. The bratty kids on 'My Super Sweet Sixteen' seem to like/love their selfish, shallow selves. So, I truly understand one needs to like/love themself ... hopefully their liking/loving themselves with some quality reasons behind it.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 26, 2007, 10:04:02 PM
One day while passing through the channels I heard a man speaking. Normally I just rolled my eyes at these experts on television ... this time, I happened to catch a few sentences, I don't even remember the speakers name. What he had said - in regard to a inner contentment-  is this, you'll get a lot more out of life if you concern yourself with what you can do for others as opposed to what others can do for you.


From my experience every generation finds faults with the new generations. Seeking the good old days. There's much good about our current generation ,,,, drug use is down, teenage pregnancy is down, kids are smarter about healthly foods, actually I believe 20 years ago I grew up in a more fast paced, vice-filled environment than my daughters do today.  All this plus their proficiency with computers, this up and coming generation has some great opportunities ... and yes, concerns as well.

My critique of today's generation, started in my generation is the idea of EXPECTING things instead of working for things. After WWII, America flourished. Part of this flourishment has led to a natural desire of wanting to make a comfortable life for your children. Part of this comfortablenesss has led to a generation who expect things, want things NOW, instead of understanding that if you want something in life, you HAVE TO WORK FOR IT.


Mind you, there are many terrific kids out there, working jobs, doing community service ... overall though I see an attitude of what can others do for me.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 30, 2007, 04:28:52 PM
What's happening with boys and education?

Last night I went to a Honors ceromony.  The six award winners - all girls. Out of twenty plus students acknowledged  for 50 hours of community service, one boy. It wasn't always this way, but for the past few years in my school district the girls are easily out performing the boys.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 30, 2007, 04:51:03 PM
David,

If you talk to a teacher with decades of experience, you will learn that these things come and go. For awhile it is the boy, or the this, or the that, then they all switch sides. Be glad that when the girls are up, you have girls. And don't worry about the boys, they will again have their turn!

Anne


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on May 31, 2007, 10:31:41 AM
David,

If you talk to a teacher with decades of experience, you will learn that these things come and go. For awhile it is the boy, or the this, or the that, then they all switch sides. Be glad that when the girls are up, you have girls. And don't worry about the boys, they will again have their turn!

Anne

Men are convenient targets in a society that aims its advertising at women's purses...





Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 31, 2007, 01:33:31 PM
From what I see, there's been such a big push inspiring girls -Bring your daughter to work day- Girl Power-  mixed in with what I can only poorly describe as  political correctness .... that the boys are often unsure on how to go about things .... instead of just doing ... their thinking too much about what and how they should go about saying & doing things. Thinking about how to go about things seems logical and many ways, the right thing to do, however when you start thinking too much .... sometimes you paralyze yourself into not accomplishing anything.

I wish I can better describe what I'm seeing, but I suggest we/society start giving a big push to both boys and girls.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on May 31, 2007, 02:05:27 PM
I agree taking the kids to the office  in masse most likely  makes for a unproductive work day. However I'm looking at it from the point of how it has effected the morale of the boys.

As Weezo said, these things run in cycles. Though it doesn't make  sense that it should run in cycles, here's a bit of my thought process of why it's done.

Past mis-treatment and expectations of girls/ women in our society has lead to a mind-set of making up for it. In making up for it, society started pushing girls with the Take Your Daughter To Work Day, Girl Power mindset. In some ways, pushing boys to the back. If a boy thought to himself, 'hey what about us, don't we matter' it would be understandable. Leading to a lower sense of morale.

In some ways this is similar to negative effects of affirmative action. In trying to make up for past discrimination with different discrimination, it led to a mind-set of unfairness.

There's a saying, 'two wrongs don't make a right.' .... anytime society tries to make up for past discrimination with new/ different discrimination it is highly doubtful that good things will come from it.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 31, 2007, 02:19:25 PM
David,

The world works in cycles. The climate works in cycles. The stock market works in cycles. It means there is a time for each to shine. This year Nottoway had an all female highlight at graduation. Two female valedictorians and a female salutitorian. I don't know how the honors fell. But, I remember when the reverse was reality. And, I also remember when the highlights were equally divided betwee blacks and whites and alternated colors between the highest and second position in a regular rotation. This was to make up for the fact that before integration each school had its own highlights and there were two valedictorians from the county whereas under integration, there was but one.

Discrimination is grossly unfair, and it is seemly that we choose to correct it with another, less harsh, system of discrimination for a period of time until we sense we have righted the wrong. Two wrongs may not make a right, but we consistently choose it to right a past wrong. It is as harsh on the former annointed ones, as it once was for the unannounted ones. Affirmative Action resulted forced employers to consider the dark colored applicants and to seriously access their merit. I'm not sure how often someone else was slighted by this method. I've heard lots of people complain that they were discriminated again by Affirmative Action, but when questioned, they did not really know the qualifications of the person who filled "their" shoes, but made a racially-based assumption that they were substandard by definition. Life does not hinge on a single missed opportunity. The fact is that life consists of many opportunities, all of which one should consider, not take the first that comes along.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on May 31, 2007, 07:53:38 PM
NYTemps,

Reminds me of the fun I had with my classes when we read a literature story on stereotyping Native Americans, and I asked the kids to explain how they would identify a Native American. They went the stereotypical visual identification, then I asked if there were any in the class. Turned out there were a number of mixed race Native Americans, both with black/white & black & white, which upset their stereotype. They came to only one conclusion, all Native Americans had black hair. OK, they could see that in the class, but there was one more Native American in the classroom. They looked around and looked around, never guessing that their blue-eyed blond-haired teacher could be Native American. When I told them, it blew their stereotype all to pieces!!! The moral is that you can't tell what someone is by looking at them.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 01, 2007, 12:04:07 PM
NYTemps,

Reminds me of the fun I had with my classes when we read a literature story on stereotyping Native Americans, and I asked the kids to explain how they would identify a Native American. They went the stereotypical visual identification, then I asked if there were any in the class. Turned out there were a number of mixed race Native Americans, both with black/white & black & white, which upset their stereotype. They came to only one conclusion, all Native Americans had black hair. OK, they could see that in the class, but there was one more Native American in the classroom. They looked around and looked around, never guessing that their blue-eyed blond-haired teacher could be Native American. When I told them, it blew their stereotype all to pieces!!! The moral is that you can't tell what someone is by looking at them.

I'm  native American. I was born here. That status is becoming rarer and far more exotic every day.

A moment of silence for gays and lesbians? How about a moment of silence by gays and lesbians?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 01, 2007, 01:27:43 PM
lol

It's San Fran.  Who gives a crap what they do?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on June 04, 2007, 05:03:55 PM
It seems some messages disappeared. Oh well, that happens on  forums at times.

Anyway, as the school year comes to a close and most of the educators on this form have disappeared, it's always a good time -well, maybe not always, so we'll say it's most often a good time- to inspire and educate the future with an opposite to racism.

L ets
E nd
A ll
R acism
N ow

http://www.LEARNspreadtheword.com :)
 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 04, 2007, 05:10:42 PM
Actually, some racism can ensure survival.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 04, 2007, 06:03:46 PM
Actually, some racism can ensure survival.

Utley, please explain!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 04, 2007, 08:54:23 PM
Inca,

Here is the proof that I am what I say I am: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/staff.html

I think you now owe me, and the rest who have put up with your silly tantrum on Gay Rights, an apology. We're waiting!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on June 05, 2007, 01:06:33 AM
My exchange with Weezo is on the gay rights forum, and therefore my response to this pretentious question.

I don't visit this forum anymore.  I think Weezo is either a fraud or an imcompetant educator, and I strongly suggest consumers beware of her website for children, or investigate her credentials carefully, if visiting.

I hope they contact the State Board of Education about you, dear.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 05, 2007, 04:54:06 AM
Inca,

You have absolutely no substantiation for your personal attacks.

The fact that hundreds of people use my website every week indicates to me that most judge me by what I do and are pleased with same. My original educational website was on Virginia's PEN, provided by the Virginia Department of Education. It is still available at: http://www.pen.k12.va.us/Pav/Academy1/ ...  The website that I am currently using is at http://www.educationalsynthesis.org and contains a wide variety of useful educational content. You have been to the site before and made favorable comments on it, so why you have taken this attack mode now is completely incomprehensible.

If you are drinking or using drugs to alleviate the stress of homeschooling, I strongly suggest that you reconsider your methods. I have to wonder what effect your mood swings are having on your child/children that you homeschool. It can't be beneficial.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on June 05, 2007, 05:07:48 AM
Inca,

You have absolutely no substantiation for your personal attacks.

The fact that hundreds of people use my website every week indicates to me that most judge me by what I do and are pleased with same. My original educational website was on Virginia's PEN, provided by the Virginia Department of Education. It is still available at: http://www.pen.k12.va.us/Pav/Academy1/ ...  The website that I am currently using is at http://www.educationalsynthesis.org and contains a wide variety of useful educational content. You have been to the site before and made favorable comments on it, so why you have taken this attack mode now is completely incomprehensible.

If you are drinking or using drugs to alleviate the stress of homeschooling, I strongly suggest that you reconsider your methods. I have to wonder what effect your mood swings are having on your child/children that you homeschool. It can't be beneficial.





It is interesting to me that you choose to post away from the gay rights forum where others might see what else has been posted that you have been unable to graciously respond to.  Or so that they can easily see the context of what you are saying and how nasty you really are.

For in that context, your post here is an unbelievably irresponsible and offensive reply from an allegedly licensed and experienced teacher - and simply because someone is unwilling to accept their identity over the internet without their posting legitimate and verifiable information about their professional status.  And suggesting that any parents visiting their site confirm that information with the Board of Education, their professed university/college, and the supposed schools they worked at.

I cannot imagine any sane or responsible teacher, attorney, doctor, or any professional working with children responding so offensively.  And especially in this age of internet hazards, and by someone who also professes to be a responsible internet professional.

You must have a lot to hide to make such vile and unbased suggestions about a parent who challenges your authority or suggests that you prove it.

From this point on, I consider you a troll to be shunned.  It was a misrable experience knowing you on the Times, and it is a misrable experience here too.  Too bad it is so difficult to particicpate without having to deal with you on some alleged terms of your so-called professional status as a "teacher." 

If I have any more trouble with you, I will contact the Virginia State Board of Education and make a formal complaint.  That someone here under one of their licensed identities is making so much trouble for people.

I think, like the New York Times, you should be thrown off this forum for hawking a site for children and being so offensively rude when legitimately asked to prove to parents who visit that site that you are really who you say you are.

You may get away with down South, but you would be out on your butt in the street in the Union towns.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on June 05, 2007, 05:13:13 AM
And let's remember that any references to your medications (on the gay rights forum) are through information you gave about yourself willingly on the Times forum.

So that was not an unbased attack.

Do go take them.

You never did say....were they anti-psychotics?  Is that why you were laid off -- I believe someone else mentioned?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on June 05, 2007, 05:31:55 AM
And just so you know, "Weezo."  Because you keep trying to characterize internet posts as "tantrums" or "emotional swings" since you have no valid argument with what I'm saying....

Every statement I'm writing on these boards to you is being made calmly and rationally.

I shall contact the authorities if I have any more trouble with you.

And I hope the Escape people here, if they have any doubts, contact the forum moderators at the New York Times for further information on "alpemberton", your booted incarnation, just before you reinvented your wheels as "weezo" there too.

Remember?  For their infromation, the story is retold on Gay Rights.  How and why you - the troll - were canned.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 05, 2007, 05:35:41 AM
Inca,

Keep on with your threats. They are all the proof needed of your impaired mental state.

I feel sorry for your children in not being able to escape to school to get away from you vile temper.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on June 05, 2007, 05:42:58 AM
Inca,

Keep on with your threats. They are all the proof needed of your impaired mental state.

I feel sorry for your children in not being able to escape to school to get away from you vile temper.


If you were a legitimate, responsible teacher, you would have no problem with my warning as to contacting the Virginia State Board of Education.  Nor would you characterize that statement as a deranged threat.

Professionals understand that they are accountable to the public.

You obviously do not.

Nor would a responsible educator who's never met me or discussed in any substantive way anything personal with me -- make such a statement about a parent or their child.

But I have noticed that you will say anything about others to protect yourself.

Just as when you used racism to defend your failure with that young man who dropped out, and whose name you can't even remember.  How convenient for you that his mother was poor, single, and urban black, with what you called *attitude*.

I think you are the kind of the person who uses every mean, dishonest trick in the book to cover their butt.

And that's not a teacher.

It's what we call in N.Y. the son of a female dog.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on June 05, 2007, 05:45:08 AM
Or the female dog herself.

But you just keep referencing my children, dear. 

And you'll find out.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 05, 2007, 09:44:31 AM
Inca,

Keep on with your threats. They are all the proof needed of your impaired mental state.

I feel sorry for your children in not being able to escape to school to get away from you vile temper.


If you were a legitimate, responsible teacher, you would have no problem with my warning as to contacting the Virginia State Board of Education.  Nor would you characterize that statement as a deranged threat.

Professionals understand that they are accountable to the public.

You obviously do not.

Nor would a responsible educator who's never met me or discussed in any substantive way anything personal with me -- make such a statement about a parent or their child.

But I have noticed that you will say anything about others to protect yourself.

Just as when you used racism to defend your failure with that young man who dropped out, and whose name you can't even remember.  How convenient for you that his mother was poor, single, and urban black, with what you called *attitude*.

I think you are the kind of the person who uses every mean, dishonest trick in the book to cover their butt.

And that's not a teacher.

It's what we call in N.Y. the son of a female dog.


Let me get this straight.
You called for the credentials and they were posted.
What's the beef, now?

She didn't kiss your ass because you're a parent?

That's too funny.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 05, 2007, 10:11:22 AM
Thank you Utley, for stating the situation so succinctly.

Back on the time, she was, or claims to be, a poster named Chrysanthemum, who enjoyed the children's stories I was working on at the time, and even made constructive comments on the Princess story. Now, she has taken on the skin of a troll intent on sowing discord. I will let the decision what to do with her up to Liquid.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 05, 2007, 10:19:54 AM
Quote
If you were a legitimate, responsible teacher, you would have no problem with my warning as to contacting the Virginia State Board of Education.  Nor would you characterize that statement as a deranged threat.
Are you shitting me?  One reason I would never, ever post the type of stuff you demanded of weezo is because of the thought that some demented fool would contact the licensing authority because they took offense to something I said - which you have now threatened to do to weezo.  Even if I knew the complaints were all bull, the idea that I would have to waste my time defending myself because of an internet lunatic would be enough to make me have "a problem" with someone threatening to contact the licensing authority.

You seem reasonably balanced outside of your confrontations with weezo, but her diagnosis fits the case as I see it.  And yes I've read your comments about the history of the dispute.  Just let it go.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 05, 2007, 10:21:24 AM
Quote
If you were a legitimate, responsible teacher, you would have no problem with my warning as to contacting the Virginia State Board of Education.  Nor would you characterize that statement as a deranged threat.
Are you shitting me?  One reason I would never, ever post the type of stuff you demanded of weezo is because of the thought that some demented fool would contact the licensing authority because they took offense to something I said - which you have now threatened to do to weezo.  Even if I knew the complaints were all bull, the idea that I would have to waste my time defending myself because of an internet lunatic would be enough to make me have "a problem" with someone threatening to contact the licensing authority.

You seem reasonably balanced outside of your confrontations with weezo, but her diagnosis fits the case as I see it.  And yes I've read your comments about the history of the dispute.  Just let it go.

good advice, counselor. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 05, 2007, 10:45:07 AM
Thanks, Whiskey & Utley,

I just removed the personal information from one of the links I provided. It was on there from way back. But I can see now that it could be a problem if the information was abused by someone who is apparently suffering. 

It is one of the problems with homeschooling, in that, if a teacher is determined to be unfit, he/she can be removed from the classroom. Student may suffer under such a teacher for, at most a year, and more often for a few weeks/months or a semester until the teacher can be replaced or the student moves on. With homeschooling, there is no one to put the brakes on to relieve the students of a problematic teacher. It can go on as long as the parent so chooses.

 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 05, 2007, 11:22:14 AM
The attack on Anne's credentials was uncalled for.  And I would disagree that this poster seems rational most of the time.  Any time anyone disagrees with her she resorts to personal insults, all the while decrying the lack of civility on the part of other posters.  Anne's credentials were posted on her site long before Inca demanded them.  It's rather ironic that she is in such a tizzy over Anne's CV....one wonders what her own qualifications might be.

I don't wonder. I don't even spend time thinking anything about her...but I am fairly certain she considers herself the moral authority on a whole host of subjects...


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 05, 2007, 01:21:31 PM
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Wilsons,+VA,+USA&sa=X&oi=map&ct=title

 ;)

Thanks.  My brother has a vacation house not far from there.  It is new to him and I haven't been there yet.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 05, 2007, 01:27:27 PM
I see that Inca aroused some curiosity. Wilsons, VA is where the post office is located. The postal area is greater than the actual town, which is a few buildings at a railroad crossing. Downtown Wilsons consists or a row of homes that face the railroad, with a post office that is stilll heated by a wood stove, and a country store that has stood vacant since we moved here more than twenty years ago. In the row of homes fronting the railroad, all are charaterized by large, well landscaped lawns and large, productive gardens. I do not think that Wilsons is an incorporated town.

Senator Warner is proposing to make the airstrip at Fort Pickett a place for navy jet pilots to practice landing and taking off. It will change our quiet peaceful life into one of constant overhead noise. The price of being near Fort Pickett has so far only been that of having to hang pictures on the walls with two nails instead of a single nail, since the practice shooting, which shakes the house, otherwise keeps all picture sitting awry.

For now, it's peaceful here. Y'all come. We have a small house, but lots of yard to pitch a tent in.

Sami, in what community/campground is your brother located? Perhaps he is on Lake Chesdin with a friend of ours.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 05, 2007, 01:31:12 PM


Sami, in what community/campground is your brother located? Perhaps he is on Lake Chesdin with a friend of ours.

It isn't on a lake; it is right off the Blue Ridge Parkway.  I think the nearest town is Belaire Springs, but I am not positive.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 05, 2007, 01:38:43 PM
Sami,

Close enough on a map, but a couple of hours west of here by auto. Beautiful country out there. You should look forward to a chance to join your brother on a vacation.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 05, 2007, 01:40:32 PM
Sami,

Close enough on a map, but a couple of hours west of here by auto. Beautiful country out there. You should look forward to a chance to join your brother on a vacation.



I am.  We are hoping for a family type reunion next year.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 05, 2007, 01:47:25 PM
NY Temps,

I was the blue-eyed blonde haired teacher. While most people my age have their hair turn either gray or white, mine has turned ash-brown. My father's blind hair did the same thing. He went to fight the Japs in WWII as a light blonde. Most of the men in his unit returned with gray hair. He's turned brown from the stress. He had very little gray by the time he died at 59. I have very little gray now at 61.

Yes, I know it is chancey to share this information. I hope I do not end up regretting it. But, for years, the Internet has been my home, and I am reluctant to let dervish people upset my comfort.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 05, 2007, 02:09:26 PM
NY Temps & Whiskey,

I just edited my posts to take out the link to my personal site and the references therein to other photos of me. Thanks for the advice.

I do, from time to time, share my Educational Synthesis web site, especially in this education forum, so I am leaving that link. I will, later today, take off my license and certificate from that page, and probably also my CV. It is inconsistent with the information on the other staff members, and they wrote what they wanted me to post. Maybe I should also take off the name of the town so it can't be linked to a map quite so easily as Laurie was able to do.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 05, 2007, 02:50:00 PM
Anne...I apologize.  I had thought about whether to post that, but with Google, one can locate any city in seconds.  I removed the post, maybe Samiinh could remove the link to it in reply?

I think they're gone now.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 05, 2007, 03:43:03 PM
Laurie,

If it was Inca/Chrys's intent to see if she could get us to do what better sense told us not to do, she succeeded. I don't see her on today, and there is a new female member today that haunts some of the same threads as our moody one and seems, so far, to have the same outlook.

I just changed the Staff webpage back to the way it was. I considered taking off the name of my town, but it would be inconsistent with the rest of the page, although the others on the staff are in large cities.

It is nice to be able to change the posts on here when we lose it temporarily. I wish I could have done that back on the Times when I lost it with Owlice. But, then I'd probably have gone on using my real name as a handle.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 05, 2007, 04:39:17 PM
NY Temps,

I was around for the birth of the web and have watched it mature into the toddler stage. Initially, the Internet was a haven for professionals in many areas. Back then, if you used a search engine and got a "bibliography" of fifty hits, you were a WOW! Now, if you do a search, you get thousands, tens of thousands or more hits, and, if you are doing serious research, you have to watch out for the addresses to make sure you are using a creditable site. I think teachers generally know how to separate sources students quote - the opinions from the factual. Generally speaking, any site with a tilde in it is not a creditable site for research purposes, although it may provide a new slant with information that can be verified through more creditable sources.

Blogs are purely entertainment. I do not bother with them, since they usually do not provide easily for contradiction, and are just one man/woman's opinion among a lot of possible opinions. I'm on dial-up, so youtube isn't something I can do anything with. I suspect it's similar to an evening watching someone else's home movies.

As to the amateur statis of those who share music, writing, poetry, etc., there is nothing wrong with amateurs or new artists getting a showing. If they are good, or use the web to develop their public skills, it enriches the culture. I'm not sure that the "good old days" when only "experts" could tell us how good a piece of art, a movie, or  a piece of music were, were all that good anyway. I've enjoyed many a movie that was "panned" by the experts and found the movies to which they gave glowing reviews obtuse and unentertaining.

I am inclined to think that the author of that book is expressing sour grapes. He went to a lot of trouble to build up his professional status in whatever he presumes qualified to judge, and his is just one more opinon among the many.

All of that is, of course, in my opinion!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 05, 2007, 05:17:32 PM
FWIW, I find the web a great place to shop from home.  Or at least do the window shopping and educate myself.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on June 06, 2007, 07:46:26 PM
Quote
If you were a legitimate, responsible teacher, you would have no problem with my warning as to contacting the Virginia State Board of Education.  Nor would you characterize that statement as a deranged threat.
Are you shitting me?  One reason I would never, ever post the type of stuff you demanded of weezo is because of the thought that some demented fool would contact the licensing authority because they took offense to something I said - which you have now threatened to do to weezo.  Even if I knew the complaints were all bull, the idea that I would have to waste my time defending myself because of an internet lunatic would be enough to make me have "a problem" with someone threatening to contact the licensing authority.

You seem reasonably balanced outside of your confrontations with weezo, but her diagnosis fits the case as I see it.  And yes I've read your comments about the history of the dispute.  Just let it go.

You do not appear to have read the exchange with full comprehension, rather your personal prejudices.

Tell me the purpose of a professional license with children then – and for an independent professional – if not to establish their legitimacy with the public and particularly if they are operating a site for children on the internet.  I see nothing unusual about posting license information (such as what they are licensed in - and how it can be confirmed), degree and university information, or schools that one has worked at.

I submit my credentials, depending on the context of a situation.  If I were offering services on the internet, and to other people's children, I would consider myself, as a independent professional, accountable to the public, to their parents.

IMO, it is disrespectful to the consumers themselves to expect them to accept anything less.  And especially when they are expecting those consumers to send them their children.

If I were not comfortable sharing such information, I would not repeatedly offer up a website for children to visit.  And I would not post on the web in my alleged capacity as that professional.  Or expect people to accept arguments based on my authority in a subject that I am not willing to establish on the internet for those I argue with. 

By rules of logic, such a premise is finished at the get-go.

People are free to do as they please in these matters.  To take or leave the services of such individuals as they deem fit.  However, they are also completely within their rights to make inquiries, and it is entirely appropriate to do, if that individual is making an issue of who they are professionally to the public.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 06, 2007, 08:05:31 PM
Famous American Women

I am doing an update on my Famous Americans site http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/famamer and want to make some additions to the Famous American Women collection.

I already have: Pocahontas, Betsy Ross, Susan B. Anthony, Harriet Tubman, Maggie Walker, Jane Addams, Eleanor Roosevelt, Helen Keller, Irene Morgan, Rosa Parks, Mae Jemison, Sally Ride and Georgia O'Keefe on the page.

Any suggestions?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on June 06, 2007, 08:31:35 PM
Anne,

Any suggestions?

Mother Jones, Margaret Sanger, Josephine Baker, Krista McAuliffe!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 06, 2007, 09:01:18 PM
Elizabeth Cady Stanton

The Peabody Sisters of Salem, MA

Louisa Mae Alcott
Margaret chase Smith

Florence Nightingale

Amelia Earrhart

Marian Anderson

Maya Angelou


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 06, 2007, 10:15:20 PM
Hamm

Streisand

Lewinsky



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 06, 2007, 10:43:27 PM
Great lists, all. Keep 'em coming if you have any more to contribute.

Kid, this is a resource primarily for elementary students. Can you explain what Lewinsky could do to edify them? And, who is Hamm. I don't recognize the name.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 06, 2007, 10:51:49 PM
Jeane O'Hara.
Look her up. Very famous during World War II.

Sacagawea.

Madonna.

Cleopatra.

Delilah.

and Charles Nelson Reilly.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 06, 2007, 11:09:36 PM
Utley,

Very funny, but not exactly what I'm looking for. Reilly may have pranced, but he did have a third leg.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 07, 2007, 05:12:31 AM
All good additions! And, so much more diverse a list than I could think of on my own!

I am especially grateful for inclusion of Sacajawea, who is a character in my book about the Lewis and Clark Expedition. She deserves her own entry. And Annie Oakley, to broaden my collection beyond a preponderance of Easterners. Diane Fossey takes me into science, which I am weak on.

Thanks muchly to all who contributed to the list (including the funnies!). Whenever I hit a "can't think" moment again, I've got a wonderful collection to work from.

I am waiting to include Hillary Clinton to see if she gets the nomination for the presidency and how she fares. So far, she qualifies as a First Lady, a Senator, and we'll see what else. I have a small number of people who are still living, but most of those on the pages are ones whose accomplishments are a done deal.

I wish there was a week or month dedicated to the study of Women and their accomplishments as there is for African Americans. I know that during February, I have a lot of hits on the site for kids doing a Black History report. 

Thanks again, for names submitted so far, and for any others anyone can think of down the road.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 07, 2007, 08:48:38 AM
Dont forget Wilma Rudolph, Billy Jean King, Althea Gibson, and Molly Pitcher!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 07, 2007, 01:29:34 PM
Rachel Carson, of course! Thanks.

Hoffman, thanks for the link. What I really wanted were suggestions from real people on who to include. I now have a substantial list to draw from. I will probably add 3-4 of them this week while hubby is away and I have unlimited time to futz around on the computer.

I was wondering if March was still Women's History month. I don't hear much about it, or at least not as much as Black History. A foolish Va governer a few years ago, designated March as "Confederate History Month", which was so unpopular that it has not been repeated since.

Thanks to all for the suggestions. I'll be quite a while adding all of them to the site, but now I have a clear path to follow.


 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on June 07, 2007, 02:15:48 PM
http://www.greatwomen.org/home.php - A link to the National Women's Hall of Fame

Some names I didn't see, might have missed .... Lucielle Ball, Oprah Winfrey, Condoleeza Rice, Mary Tyler Moore, The Fabulous Moolah

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 07, 2007, 03:09:36 PM
David,

Thanks for the additions. But who is the Fabulous Moolah?

I was gathering the net links for a page on Bojangles (a Virginian), and found a piece from The Little Colonel dancing the stairs with Shirley Temple. It was on youtube, which I've never before accessed. Geez, that man was talented, even when he was white-haired!

I used to be a great fan of Lucille Ball until she did a movie in which she played a "bag lady" in the 80's. She was interviewed and had some nasty things to say about people who end up living on the streets, and I've never watched anything of her since. But, she was a living legend in spite of her hateful speech that time.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 07, 2007, 03:26:16 PM
Great lists, all. Keep 'em coming if you have any more to contribute.

Kid, this is a resource primarily for elementary students. Can you explain what Lewinsky could do to edify them? And, who is Hamm. I don't recognize the name.

"Who is Hamm?"

LOL


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on June 07, 2007, 03:34:50 PM
Who'd the Fabulous Moohlah?

She was the Women's World Wrestling Federation Champion for 27 years consecutive years ... undeated during her reign?

David



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 07, 2007, 03:38:05 PM
Thanks, David,

No one has ever accused me of being a sports fan.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 07, 2007, 04:26:38 PM
Thanks, David,

No one has ever accused me of being a sports fan.

Which is why you like NASCAR. Yeah, we know... ;D


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 07, 2007, 05:41:48 PM
At least at Nascar they don't spending all their time grabbin' balls.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 08, 2007, 07:41:50 AM
Thanks, David,

No one has ever accused me of being a sports fan.
Which is perhaps why you didn't recognize kid's reference to soccer star Mia Hamm.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 08, 2007, 07:59:43 AM
http://www.greatwomen.org/home.php - A link to the National Women's Hall of Fame

Some names I didn't see, might have missed .... Lucielle Ball, Oprah Winfrey, Condoleeza Rice, Mary Tyler Moore, The Fabulous Moolah

David

I'm not sure that Rice should be on this list.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 08, 2007, 08:10:27 AM
http://www.greatwomen.org/home.php - A link to the National Women's Hall of Fame

Some names I didn't see, might have missed .... Lucielle Ball, Oprah Winfrey, Condoleeza Rice, Mary Tyler Moore, The Fabulous Moolah

David

I'm not sure that Rice should be on this list.
Well, I'd put Madeline Albright on a list before her because, well, she's on the list before her, but our shared repugnance for her on political terms should not cause anyone to overlook what she has accomplished with her life.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 08, 2007, 08:25:33 AM
http://www.greatwomen.org/home.php - A link to the National Women's Hall of Fame

Some names I didn't see, might have missed .... Lucielle Ball, Oprah Winfrey, Condoleeza Rice, Mary Tyler Moore, The Fabulous Moolah

David

I'm not sure that Rice should be on this list.
Well, I'd put Madeline Albright on a list before her because, well, she's on the list before her, but our shared repugnance for her on political terms should not cause anyone to overlook what she has accomplished with her life.

I suppose you're right about that.  Rice has accomplished a great deal.  I don't think she's been much of a  success as SOS, however.  As the director of an oil company, and a republican yesgirl she's done well.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 08, 2007, 09:12:02 AM
The list is so large, I will not quickly get around to making a page for each one for some time to come. That will leave time for some lives that are not yet complete to continue and see how they turn out. I made the mistake of putting one man on my Virginians list: L. Douglas Wilder, who was the first African Americans elected governor of Virginia or any southern state since reconstruction. He had finished his nice term as governor and was quietly teaching at a university. Then, he decided to make a comeback into politics again, ran for and was elected mayor of Richmond, and is now making a colorful name for himself in that capacity. Now I have to update his page and will have to do so for some time to come. I really prefer to make a page and be finished with that one.

In spite of that, I am going to put together a page on Sandra Day O'Connor. I think she is out of doing things other than to teach. And, I'm going to do Sacagawea, probably today. I already have some information on her since my Lewis and Clark story includes Sacajawea and Pomp, so there is one resource for the net links. I've started the research on Dian Fossey, and will probably do Sojourner Truth if hubby stays at the beach through the weekend as he is currently planning. It's amazing what I can accomplish when he is away!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 08, 2007, 10:35:07 AM
You've got your work cut out for you, eh?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 08, 2007, 12:33:07 PM
Love it, love it, love it!

Hubby is recently retired and seems to want me to continually amuse him when he's around. I used to get a lot done while he was at work, now, I have to steal time when he's napping. A whole week of nothing but doing as I please is a true pleasure. I love the man, but he needs to get a hobby!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 08, 2007, 02:19:20 PM
At least at Nascar they don't spending all their time grabbin' balls.

If you had balls to grab, maybe you'd understand. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 08, 2007, 03:02:57 PM
Can't be too sure of that Utley...most husbands are more than willing to share    ::)

Isn't that against the church?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 08, 2007, 05:33:41 PM
God might be, but the Christianity surely isn't.  Paul feared women, so I've read.  Jesus might have been gay as well.  Oh well.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 08, 2007, 05:50:15 PM
Jesus might have been gay as well.  Oh well.
Intersting speculation about someone of whom you think there's no evidence of his existence.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 08, 2007, 06:43:01 PM
Jesus might have been gay as well.  Oh well.
Intersting speculation about someone of whom you think there's no evidence of his existence.

I should have written, "the alleged Jesus might have been gay"


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 11, 2007, 06:50:04 PM
Where have all the educators gone? There's still a week left in the school year in my neck of the woods.

Weezo -- Here's another great American woman for you: Sally Kristen Ride

First American woman in space.

Interestingly, Russia had the first woman in space in 1963, the US had it's first woman in space in 1984.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 11, 2007, 06:57:40 PM

Weezo,

Here's a two more stand-outs.

Myra Bradwell (1831-1894) America's first woman
lawyer.


Joan Ganz Cooney (1929 - ) founder of the Children's
Television Workshop for Public Television and
creator of Sesame Street.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 11, 2007, 07:01:03 PM
Bravo on that last one

It should be noted that Bert does not carry a purse.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 11, 2007, 09:33:27 PM
Learn,

Already have Sally Ride's picture and a link to her Nasa site. I need to write a simple summary for the little kids yet.

BTW, could I call her a scientist or an explorer?



Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 12, 2007, 01:19:57 PM
BTW, could I call her a scientist or an explorer?

If she's a scientist, then you can call her one. Being that she's an astrounaut, I can see using the word explorer as well.

One thing for certain, you can call her a  astronaut.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 12, 2007, 06:53:05 PM
David,

So neither of us know if she is a scientist. I will have to look it up. I do not have a category for "astronauts", since that is not a historical category, but only one of the 20th century. I can, of course, leave her only under the "Famous Women" and not cross-categorize her. Her black counterpart Mae Jamison, is under two categories now, Women and African-Americans. I did want to beef up my Explorers category, but if she didn't do any exploring, only served her time in outer space, I guess I can't put her there.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: jcm on June 12, 2007, 08:52:18 PM
Hi...just passing through, but I believe Sally Ride has a degree in Astrophysics....scientist.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 13, 2007, 12:35:29 AM
Doctorate


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 13, 2007, 07:13:30 AM
Thanks Jcm and Kid for the suggestions that Sally Ride should be cross-categorized as a scientist rather than an explorer. John Glenn and Neil Armstrong can be included as explorers, but I am a bit unsure of the missions of later astronauts such as Sally Ride and Mae Jemison. Will have to do some research on the facts before I write up their pages.

I keep hearing that today's kids are more interested in science than history, so I want to go a bit more in that direction with both Famous Americans and My Own Books. I am considering books on Theobold Smith and Walter Reed. Walter Reed is more well known. Theobold Smith solved a problem in cattle feed lots, but I'm not sure that kids will really get into that achievement.

I welcome suggestions for other scientists for the pages (as I did for Women, of which I now have a healthy stock to work from).


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 13, 2007, 09:26:27 AM
Since the gay movement is such a big part of current socieety, you may wish to add NANCY WILSON to your list.

Moderator (worldwide) of the Metropolitan Community Church (MCC), which has gays, lesbians, transgenders as a large % of its constituency.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 13, 2007, 08:24:15 PM
NY Temps,

Temple Grandin sounds like a good addition. Kids tend to like animals, and anyone who does things for them is a hero!

Laurie,

I just downloaded a bio of Sally Ride. Yes, she has a doctorate in science, and was a professor of same at University of California. That was in '87. In 2000 she started an Internet based service to allow middle school kids to take pictures in space and download them. Part of that initiative includes the Sally Ride Clubs, to encourage girls in science. She has also written five children's books, the first one "To Space and Back" includes details on her own flight experience. I may order that book and see if it lends itself to a personalized story about space flight.

What was really interesting in her bio is that she started out wanting to be a tennis pro, and after quitting college to do so, decided she really wasn't quite good enough to make it, and went back to college and into science. One smart lady!

Kid,

You are not getting the picture of who and why people are featured on my website. First prostitutes, now a gay woman. Are women nothing more than sex objects to you? Or, are you illustrating a putz?
 





Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 14, 2007, 06:40:15 AM
I think we can stop making THIS Forum all about YOUR website, weezo...

Just go off, do  the research on your own and get it done. And when it's done make sure you credit all the people here who got you started.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 14, 2007, 07:35:37 AM
Utley,

If you have anything to discuss on education, my website collection can certainly take a back seat. If you check the dates on my webpages, you will find that this is not a start-up idea, but an ongoing one.

In other words, if you have something to say on the issue of education, put it forth and we will chew it over. If not, don't tell me to leave the forum empty when I can get a useful discussion going here.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 14, 2007, 10:01:36 AM
NY Temps,

Temple Grandin sounds like a good addition. Kids tend to like animals, and anyone who does things for them is a hero!

Laurie,

I just downloaded a bio of Sally Ride. Yes, she has a doctorate in science, and was a professor of same at University of California. That was in '87. In 2000 she started an Internet based service to allow middle school kids to take pictures in space and download them. Part of that initiative includes the Sally Ride Clubs, to encourage girls in science. She has also written five children's books, the first one "To Space and Back" includes details on her own flight experience. I may order that book and see if it lends itself to a personalized story about space flight.

What was really interesting in her bio is that she started out wanting to be a tennis pro, and after quitting college to do so, decided she really wasn't quite good enough to make it, and went back to college and into science. One smart lady!

Kid,

You are not getting the picture of who and why people are featured on my website. First prostitutes, now a gay woman. Are women nothing more than sex objects to you? Or, are you illustrating a putz?
 





LOL

Ms Wilson much much more than just a "gay woman".  She's a great uniter of people.  The religious right had a start.  How bout the gay religious left?

Are you saying you are excluding gays from the list?

Nah - can't be that.  Or you'd have to check your facts.  I'm sure that is not it.

BTW - Lewinsky was a joke.  You should get that radar checked so you can siphon out - learn to laugha  bit.  (I won't even defend her as a non-prostitute, though i don't believe she was)





Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 14, 2007, 12:14:27 PM
Kid,

A lengthy Explanation:

The Famous Americans site began as a resource for kids learning history in K-2nd grade at a school where I was the computer teacher, had new computers with absolutely NO appropriate software, but the capacity to get easily to the web. So I began creating worthwhile stuff on the web for my kids to go to. Under "Literature", there were links to games for all of their favorite cartoon characters, for example, and on "Holidays", games and music for the season.

Famous Americans is mostly composed of celebrated people whose lives have ended. There area  few exceptions, especially in Civil Rights, where the folks who did the great deed are still alive to tell about it. Famous Americans, as it has been, is not about people currently in the news. That would require me to devote far too much time to updating the site, and the students are better served by just accessing normal news links to learn more.

To be honest, I already have enough names stored in a database for future consideration to more than triple the size of the Famous Women's Page. Originally, I only wanted a couple more to finish out a line --- but got such a wonderful response, that I've added more than intended.

As for a "uniter of people", I am considering another in that category: Conrad Weiser who spend 30 years as a translator between the Six Nationa and the colony of Pennsylvanis, with some assistance given to the adjoining colonies of New York and Virginia. There are a lot of things named for him back in Berks County, PA where he lived in the 17th and 18th century. His role in colonial politics was similar to that of Pocahontas, but he was at it for many more years. I have devoted a lot of web space and curricular materials to Pocahontas - see http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/famamer/Pocahontas to see the wide variety of stuff I have for the Kindergarten teacher who introduce her, historically, to their students.

If Ms Wilson has the stature of a Conrad Weiser, a Pocahontas, or a J. J. Roberts, please let me know. I will consider including her. Her sexual orientation is immaterial, as it is for all of the other Famous Americans. Young children, typically, are not knowledgeable of sexual orientation unless it is a factor within their own home environment, in which case, it falls to the parent/s to help out their child. It is not a role I see for my website.

A joke is one thing, Kid, but continuing to denegrade the discussion with sexually oriented entries caused me to consider you were less joking and more making a point. Why do you think that the subject of accomplished women deserves only jokes as a response?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 14, 2007, 01:21:21 PM
1 joke

My other 3 were legit.

Relax, sweetie

Wilsin is my cousin, by the way.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 14, 2007, 02:13:58 PM
Utley,

If you have anything to discuss on education, my website collection can certainly take a back seat. If you check the dates on my webpages, you will find that this is not a start-up idea, but an ongoing one.

In other words, if you have something to say on the issue of education, put it forth and we will chew it over. If not, don't tell me to leave the forum empty when I can get a useful discussion going here.


Besides being an old windbag, you
are a putz.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 14, 2007, 02:15:46 PM
Besides the fact that your website isn't even useful for kids, as there are plenty of sites to use already---not to mention that children should be defining for themselves who and what a heroine is...

Look here, for example:  http://www.wmol.com/whalive/resource.htm


Title: Re: Education
Post by: whiskeypriest on June 14, 2007, 02:16:45 PM
Utley,

If you have anything to discuss on education, my website collection can certainly take a back seat. If you check the dates on my webpages, you will find that this is not a start-up idea, but an ongoing one.

In other words, if you have something to say on the issue of education, put it forth and we will chew it over. If not, don't tell me to leave the forum empty when I can get a useful discussion going here.


Besides being an old windbag, you
are a putz.
I'd take that as a "no" weez.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 14, 2007, 02:40:51 PM
I'll bet most of you think you're well-educated. But what does that mean?

Go here: http://www.alfiekohn.org/articles.htm#null

And scroll down and read the article from Principal Leadership [NASSP]

titled: "What Does It Mean to Be Well-Educated?", March 2003


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 14, 2007, 02:48:22 PM
Whiskey, I agree! He is probably just annoyed that the education forum isn't devoted to discussing his favorite way to play with balls.

As to his contention that my site is not useful to kids, he is dead wrong. It is rather heavily used by kids and teachers, especially in Virginia since it follows the Virginia objectives. It also expands beyond the people recommended for study in Virginia, which is why I wanted to add some to my offerings on Famous Women. According to those who take the time to write and thank me for the site, it is the only site that is and has been available for the very young students. I started the site in 2001 to meet a need, and have kept it going for six years now. It does not matter to me that others, with good funding, make sites that meet other needs, and I would not mind if other people made sites that also meet the needs of my audience. Just as there are many books published on approximately the same subject, and some people read all of them, some people choose one to read, so will the proliferations of useful web sites allow the students to choose among them, or check out all to get the bigger picture.

I'm sure Utley has not checked out the site so is not aware that under the summaries which are intended for elementary levels students, there are, on most pages, a list of links to more information which include sites like the one he suggested. Just as there is not a single definitive book on John Kennedy, there is no website that is the single definitive site on Famous American Women. Each webmaster uses their own criteria for deciding which, among the many possibilities, to include.

Whiskey, want to put odds on the likelihood that Utley's students also refer to him as the "old windbag" behind his back?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 14, 2007, 03:04:26 PM
Said the old douchebag.

Look, weasel...stop with ENDLESS SELF-PROMOTION.

Christ, am I the only one who thinks like Garry Trudeau, who said, "America. The only country where the lack of self-promotion is considered arrogant"?

Read the damn article I posted and get back to us on that, when you recover from the cogent criticism you cannot seem to handle.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 14, 2007, 03:09:56 PM
Utley,

That is a good article, but I've read many just like it since I got into education almost 25 years ago. No single definition describes what should be learned as "education" leading to the conclusion that no single test or test format can properly determine if education is "doing what it's supposed to do", even if that "supposed to do" has some limited concensus. In a sense, education is like politics, the definition of what is right and good varies with time, place, and a host of other variables. What is good politics for New York would not be right for North Dakota.

If you agree with the article, why do you object to my Famous Americans site? The site is a collection of facts and links to more facts which provide students with the substance on which to base their thoughts. How can anyone determine who their heroes will be if they haven't encountered a wide choice of possibilities?  


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 14, 2007, 03:34:49 PM
Figured you'd miss the point.

Don't mix up the article with your nonsense. One is about ensuring that people continue to be educated and learn to learn. Yours is about gathering a bunch of facts...not the same thing...

Your 25 years has apparently taught you very little, if you think throwing up a bunch of links on a website is "learning"....or "learn-ed".


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 14, 2007, 04:40:12 PM
Utley,

I remember when I read your first post asking about 'real issues in education'. Weezo strongly came to your defense, thinking I was being too harsh in my response. Now I may have been unnecessarily annoying (picky) in my response, but as your last few posts to Weezo reaffirm, I wasn't being too harsh. While your first post made me sense a pompous attitude, your most recent ones have me sensing  a  bully.

Weezo posts asking about 'Great Women' created more discussion than any other recent posts on this thread.  Between her posting there were days of non-activity. I don't recall her posting a link to her site over and over again. She asked about great woman, fellow posters participated, some probably learned a few things (I did) ..... what's the problem? Your accusation of her promoting her site doesn't carry much weight.

Hey I have an idea. Why don't you write something inspiring about education and ignite the discussion.

Also, your intended insult, saying Weezo's site doesn't do anything for kids. You don't know that. You're probably wrong. Even if you weren't ...  why you'd say something  to make an elderly educator feel bad ... oh well, you'd know better than I.

Hopefully you've had a better bedside manner with your students over the years than you have on this forum.

I'm  expecting insults in your response attack, but hope I'm wrong. Surprise me. Admit you were little more than a bully, a punk in your response to Weezo.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 14, 2007, 04:51:51 PM
Hey Utley,

Why don't you start your own forum? This way like minded people will particpate with you? This way you won't have to critique the subjects others bring up.

Hey, you could be the Grand-Poobah.


David







Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 14, 2007, 06:23:10 PM
Learn,

Thank you for your defense. But, I didn't survive twenty years in the classroom only to become thin-skinned.

I get the impression that Utley has no experience in Elementary school, and, if he has children, let his wife do the raising of his kids at that age and knows little or nothing about their curiousity and seeking information. I have, rightly or wrongly, the impression that you have been more of a "hands on" father than Utley was. I also have, rightly or wrongly, the impression that Utley did not look in depth at the website he is trashing.

I got email this week from an admin in an elementary school in VA who has a link to the Famous Virginians on her school's website, and noticed that I added Powhatan last week and misspelled a word in it. So I fixed the misspelling, and learned that she hadn't realized what was on the rest of the Famous Americans site, she had only found the Famous Virginians, which is a section of the 4th grade Virginia Studies on the VA SOLs. She was delighted to find that all the Famous Americans for K-5 on the SOLs are on the site. I also told her to check out My Own Books, for the special ed and remedial teachers in the schools.

She told me about the Magellan project in her school. It is featured on their website, and she is the person in charge of it. The school is located in Alexandria, so has a higly diverse student population, probably due to the diplomatic corps that live in that part of the state to work in DC. The Magellan project helps the kids focus on the richness in the cultural diversity in the student body, helping all the children learn about the cultural highlights of their fellow students. Trips, Internet connections, and web studies about various cultures are featured, then shared in assemblies and exhibits in the school. I told her it sounded excellent, not only for a diverse school such as hers, but I would certainly like to see such a project going on at some of the schools I taught at with less diversity and considerably less understanding of the school community of the diversity of various cultures that make up our country. That is perhaps a downside of a small rural community that rarely sticks its nose outside of its own way of doing things.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 14, 2007, 07:32:44 PM
Re: Nancy Wilson

Kid,
I did a google search for a Nancy Wilson and all I found were links to the singer Nancy Wilson of Heart. Is that your cousin? Admittedly, I only perused the first page of google links.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 14, 2007, 08:18:28 PM
Figured you'd miss the point.

Don't mix up the article with your nonsense. One is about ensuring that people continue to be educated and learn to learn. Yours is about gathering a bunch of facts...not the same thing...

Your 25 years has apparently taught you very little, if you think throwing up a bunch of links on a website is "learning"....or "learn-ed".

Is it really necessary to be so nasty, Utley? 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on June 14, 2007, 08:31:46 PM
weezo & sam,

Whiskey, I agree! He is probably just annoyed that the education forum isn't devoted to discussing his favorite way to play with balls.

Gee, you don't suppose that Utley is really galactacababe in new dress, do youi?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 14, 2007, 09:30:15 PM
Great forum. Weezie and the girly-men, we should call it.

I gotta say, I love the speculation and how wrong it all is.


And notice how weezlette keeps bringing it all back to her and her shameless self-promotion of "famous" women.


 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 14, 2007, 09:40:39 PM
Cap,

I don't think Utley and Babe are the same person. The writing is not the same. Utley is, at times, more intelligent than Babe ever was.

Now, Utley seems to think that all my web site is about is Famous Women! What a fun comment for those who have seen the diversity on my web site.

Of course, Utley's spasm over Famous Women may be an indication that either his wife has asserted herself recently and may someday be featured on a Famous Women's page with little or no mention of him, or perhaps he has recently gotten a female boss or principal (if he is still teaching), who isn't impressed with his prowess with balls.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 15, 2007, 12:19:31 AM
Hey Utley,

Why don't you start your own forum? This way like minded people will particpate with you? This way you won't have to critique the subjects others bring up.

Hey, you could be the Grand-Poobah.


David







Why is this always the answer when you make the other side think a little.

OY


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 15, 2007, 12:21:56 AM
"Start your own forum"

Heh - start your own manure farm


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 15, 2007, 12:27:36 AM
Re: Nancy Wilson

Kid,
I did a google search for a Nancy Wilson and all I found were links to the singer Nancy Wilson of Heart. Is that your cousin? Admittedly, I only perused the first page of google links.

Yep.  Nancy Wilson of HEART is the gay moderator of Metropolitan Community Church

Nice job


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 15, 2007, 08:04:50 AM
Kid,

I could have lived the rest of my life just enjoying Nancy Wilsons' music without needing to know the particulars of her private life. What was your point? 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 15, 2007, 08:58:37 AM
Why is this always the answer when you make the other side think a little.

Kid8 (Gary Carter Fan/ Expos or Mets era?)

If you're going to chime in on my conversation with Utley ... use sense.

Utley first came around asking to discuss 'real issues in education', implying the issues being discussed weren't 'real' to him.

Now  he's telling Weezo what to post and not post.

So my idea of Utley starting his own forum is brilliant:-).  Though likely a forum of few, he can post  about the topics he chooses and stop whining.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 15, 2007, 09:12:31 AM
Utley,

I knew you'd come back with an insult. Girly-men .... are you an Arnold fan .... pumping iron?

You may be the smartest person on this forum, so what, you're a bully ... yuck.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 15, 2007, 09:55:51 AM
Hey Utley,

Why don't you start your own forum? This way like minded people will particpate with you? This way you won't have to critique the subjects others bring up.

Hey, you could be the Grand-Poobah.


David







Why is this always the answer when you make the other side think a little.

OY

Because most people don't like to think. They just want you to automatically agree with them. Especially women...


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 15, 2007, 09:56:50 AM
and girly men. ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 15, 2007, 02:37:05 PM
You seem to know a lot about girly men, Mr. U.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 15, 2007, 03:43:54 PM
You seem to know a lot about girly men, Mr. U.

Let's just say they're easy to recognize. And you should know that...


















being one.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 15, 2007, 03:59:44 PM
Utley,

Tremendous responses.  In only a matter a weeks you went from a poster looking to discuss 'real issues in education', to a poster that posts nonsense. - David



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 15, 2007, 04:01:47 PM
Utley,

Tremendous responses.  In only a matter a weeks you went from a poster looking to discuss 'real issues in education', to a poster that posts nonsense. - David



Well, look at this way. You've always posted nonsense here and at NYT, so we should get along famously, then, padre.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 15, 2007, 04:02:31 PM
Utley,

This girly-man thing.  How old are you, 6? I don't take it as an insult, I find it incredibly funny that a grown man/ supposed educator would use it as an intended insult.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 15, 2007, 04:13:24 PM
Well, look at this way. You've always posted nonsense here and at NYT, so we should get along famously, then, padre.


Nah, I don't pick on elderly ladies.

However, my main goal of joining education forums is to introduce others to the idea of educating the future with an opposite to racism. http://www.LEARNspreadtheword.com  If you think that's nonsense, so be it. You/I can't please everyone.


Speaking of LEARN, in a earlier post you mentioned about self-promotion. Please note that when I donated LEARN to the NYC public schools almost twenty years ago, I didn't even put my name on it. Why? Because to me, it wasn't important who created LEARN. In addition to other reasons,  I am a flawed human being, I didn't want my flaws to rub off of the LEARN message. My point, don't mistake the worthy promotion of LEARN with me promoting myself. The LEARN message is far superior than my flawed self.

David



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 15, 2007, 04:15:52 PM
David,

It an indication of Utley's great insecurity. Men who don't agree with him are "girly men", and when women don't acquiece to his nonsense, they are, well, like all women, beneath consideration.

I am inclined to theorize that he's had a drastic change in his circumstances such that a woman is now "in charge" over him, and less than impressed with his ideas of "real issues". Whether it's his wife, or his boss, or perhaps a sister who is assertering herself at the expense of his "ego" --- any could be possibilities --- or perhaps a female colleague has just received some great honor while he was ignored.

Poor Utley. Poor, poor Utley. He need our condolences, and as good humanitarians, pehaps we should indulge him ......


Naw! .....


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 15, 2007, 04:41:08 PM
Weezo,

As far as Utley's claim that your self-promoting: When I think of people self-promoting, I think of people who have a monetary incentive. I don't sense that with you at all. I sense a person who wishes to have a positive impact on children's lives.

When it comes to the work you create for children, keep doing what you're doing, until you can't or don't wish to do it anymore.

One question, what's  this 'playing with balls' thing I've heard you post several times. I can imagine what you may mean, but I'll let you explain.

David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: samiinh on June 15, 2007, 06:28:52 PM
Weezo,

As far as Utley's claim that your self-promoting: When I think of people self-promoting, I think of people who have a monetary incentive. I don't sense that with you at all. I sense a person who wishes to have a positive impact on children's lives.

When it comes to the work you create for children, keep doing what you're doing, until you can't or don't wish to do it anymore.

One question, what's  this 'playing with balls' thing I've heard you post several times. I can imagine what you may mean, but I'll let you explain.

David

Utley probably has a little weinie.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 15, 2007, 09:20:05 PM
David,

"Playing with balls" has, as you have guessed, more than one meaning. I've noticed that Utley posts frequently to the various sports forums (I see his name often as the last poster), and of course, it is a reference to his being a guy. Men my age and beyond are at that stage where they need to re-arrange theirs regularly, and sometimes in public, to the dismay of anyone who sees them. BTW, go easy on that "elderly" lady bit. I'm old, but not yet consenting to become "elderly" as yet.

This forum, as others, has a policy against advertising. Activities I do for money are not mentioned in any of my posts. Those who correspond with me personally know about them, but I don't share the information in the forum.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 16, 2007, 12:43:15 PM
Can someone please tell me how to post  a picture on left hand side of post .... like SDam and Mr. Utley have. -- Thanks, David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: madupont on June 16, 2007, 08:40:20 PM
weezo, 

For your list, this is a lady that I met back in the 1970s.

Here is the material entered at the usual source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esther_Peterson

Be sure to look also further into that material is a heading:
External Links which has a Consumer's Union bio which give you all the pertinent information.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 16, 2007, 08:50:33 PM
Maddie,

I saved the page and will refer back to it when I get back on the Famous American Women. I've taken a detour to d/l some photo disks from ten years ago to the hard drive, to put onto CD's, since son says that my next computer won't have a floppy drive anymore, so I may as well move the stuff now, instead of when I'm jammed up against the wall.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on June 16, 2007, 09:42:25 PM
http://learnspreadtheword.com/learn_box.gif


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on June 16, 2007, 09:45:32 PM
Oooh, the last one was a test.

Utley, thank you for inspiring me to better my self promotion skills.

BTW, is LEARN a proper educational topic?


David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on June 17, 2007, 02:23:04 PM
Here's some education: 80% of the prison population comes from fatherless homes.

Happy Father's Day 8)


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 17, 2007, 10:41:12 PM
I must say weezlet and unlearned, you both sure do use a lot of words to say a whole lotta nothing.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 18, 2007, 08:06:27 AM
Utley,

I'd like to return to your contention that young children should be taught to "think" in lieu of learning content to think about. In my mind, kids need both substantial content, and substantial opportunity to think about how the new input fits with whatever the child already knows.  Certainly at high school or college level, you want students to consider new as well as old imput in forming their thoughts about the subject matter. Even at my advanced age, I enjoy new input to shape my thinking.
 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 18, 2007, 08:40:44 AM


Good Morning.  ;)

Utley, ther's nothing you can say that can bother me. Weezo and I both attempt to use the net to educate. While I think you have the ability, I don't think you've educated this forum yet. For the most part you've complained. Stop complaining ... start educating. Have a great day. 8) - David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 18, 2007, 09:54:23 AM


Good Morning.  ;)

Utley, ther's nothing you can say that can bother me. Weezo and I both attempt to use the net to educate. While I think you have the ability, I don't think you've educated this forum yet. For the most part you've complained. Stop complaining ... start educating. Have a great day. 8) - David

You are perched upon the water's edge, yet you refuse to drink.

 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn on June 27, 2007, 05:18:43 PM
OK, it been almost 10 days since an educator peeked their head in here. Aside that they're all on vacation, its been  a pretty boring discussion. While many like to blame schools, the KEY to education comes down to the student themself and the support of their parents. In this world of internet access, their is no excuse for not obtaining an education. Often, you'll hear it's about money. While money matters, its more signifigantly about attitude.

I'm talking education, not life. In life, money plays a significant role. Who's one's connections? Business opportunities. Access to money. You bet it matters. BUT, when it comes to education, I do believe we are all fortunate enough to live in a time and land that if you want to educate yourself, you can.

David




Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 30, 2007, 06:46:08 PM
David,

Thanks for breaking the summer ice.

To a large extent, you are right. It is up to the child to get the education that is available to him/her. But in order to educate themselves, they must be able to read and assimilate new information. Learning to read is and should be an important first goal in the schools. Sadly, the politicians sometimes put it at the end of the line. I am aghast when I see what passes for "reading instruction" and "reading tests" the the politicians promote. Even beginning reading, is NOT learning to read words in isolation, as in memorizing words on a list. A word that is not part of a sentence, part of a paragraph, part of a story or article, is not a word - it's just a collection of curlicues. Being able to read is not pronouncing the words perfectly UNLESS the reader knows the MEANING of the words and the sentence/story he/she is reading. Scoring a child for reading on the number of "miscues" or words mistaken, is not a valid test of reading. And, certainly, a reading test that claims to test "inference" when the meaning cannot be "inferred" without outside knowledge, is not a valid reading test either. If the question cannot be answered based on the reading passage, it's a social question, not a reading question, no matter how "obvious" the answer "should" be to the reader.

And, David, money really is important in education, else, where would the books come from?





Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on July 01, 2007, 07:21:25 PM
LOL

The "politicians" put reading at the end of the line.

Unreal.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: madupont on July 08, 2007, 03:09:21 PM
weezo
"...money really is important in education, else, where would the books come from?"

Or, the computers on which you can read, and make those "connections" faster "when the meaning cannot be "inferred" without outside knowledge".

My generation had to reach middle-age, or to mature before we could infer anything from some forty years of accumulated facts and figure out the inter-relationships.  My high school system, when I was there, even in a college prep school, was boring, the information was not inter-related, the teachers were not offering the connections from one discipline to another, that is -- if they even had made those connections for themselves.  They could, how should I delicately put it, harangue you gently at the "office" of the counselor of girls, for instance, (I have no idea how that very British mustachioed dean for high school boys exerted authority or his influence toward allowing them participation in school athletics, but I suspect it was by rigorous  pomposity of having experienced military discipline). Being a girl, I was given the meant to be embarrassing social critique, why was it that with my high I.Q., by which I had excellent marks in particular subjects (that were reading oriented) and could not bring up my grades in the other half of the curriculum? There never was any question that perhaps authority was not doing their level best to teach with an interconnected program. We were simply being sifted out into categories according to our abilities with which we had arrived at the school doors.

" If the question cannot be answered based on the reading passage, it's a social question,..." and, interestingly enough that is what is determined in each winter's State Department exams for Foreign Service or as a cultural information agent; you are supplied with the exact same things as when you originally came to grade school, the format is the same.   You bring two #2 lead pencils, and a good bladder. You suddenly recognize this as you are seated at much the same desk as when you began your education.  You begin work for about a two hour stint, take a 15 minute break during which you decide what is most important as you flex your tightened muscles: do you go for a shot at the coffee to stimulate your adrenaline again while conversing sociably with your  peers to compare impressions of the exam, or do you opt for the rest rooms?

The questions presented to you on the exam cover some very esoteric subjects or situations, but you have to know what they have to do with what's currently been going on in the world, in order to answer reasonably well with the reading ability  and the education in life as well as what you've been given so far.

I think that within my son's generation, a point was made to supply newspapers in class rooms because television at home was no guarantee of reading comprehension or interest in what was taking place beyond the sit-com we were supposed to be living during the Vietnam War.

Today, it is probably even more shocking as to what the American prefers to view on tv, at the movies, and (dare I say it?)chooses to read at his pleasure, since it certainly has less to do with information, which the computer can deliver in more and more refined input if you can discriminate as to the slant sufficiently enough and quickly enough to not get snowed; and, dare I say it, according to what sources of information you can afford.

We now live in the American sit-com, in which what is discussed for us --is the kind of thing that mostly has been bantered in Celebreality forum, and the competition is not about ideas in our vicarious situation on tv but on exercising our voting rights by "personality cult"; that has now bled over into our actual politics and the party system of political life. We have a great deal of recreation provided to keep us dulled out; and very little suitable information until we get to the blog forum participation , which highly depends on the slant again and the education brought to it.

We have preferred to look the other way and not be distracted from amusing situations while the right to an equal education is again being withdrawn like a carpet being pulled out from those population groups who do not look closely enough like us who are the standard brand of White Bread.

I had been meaning to ask, weezo, had you been around the nytimes com Book forums in the last year before finding this forum, which I call Melba's place because nobody seems to know where Napoleon is on these boards although he may be in the Gardening forum among the immortelles?  And if so, did you have a chance to participate in the reading of Aunt Hagar's Children; maybe that was in October? I was reminded of this, possibly over in the Immigration forum, as it was raised somewhere what other African-American writers we have read. Although, that may have been in the Fiction area?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on July 08, 2007, 03:26:44 PM
Maddie,

I had discovered the book forums just before the move here to Exiles. I participated only on the American History book forum, and got a lot of suggestions on reading after I read Helen Roundtree. It wasn't until we moved to Exiles (which is what I call the forum), that I got into the other book threads and the other national threads other than Education. For the most part on the NYTimes I participated only on the Education Forum.

There are only a few sitcoms that I watch, and they are old ones that I tend to watch over and over and enjoy immensely - MASH, Home Improvement, are two I can think of at the moment. I enjoy watching JAG - can't decide if I like Harm or Mac more! Other than those, I tend to watch movies, if I am watching tv, which I often do while doing something else, reading, online, sewing/crocheting, or whatever. I can't easily sit still and just watch tv. Seems like I am wasting time. I guess that's why I like watching the old stuff - I know what is going to happen and just listen and glance up from time to time. I do enjoy all the Star Trek stuff, but not much into Stargate, and got bored with the 4400 by the second episode. I've never watch any of the "reality" shows, and the current sitcoms. And game shows make me want to vomit, as do the soaps.

At present, I'm watching "Stop or My Mom Will Shoot" a comedy that I enjoy when I've got other things to be working on.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on July 18, 2007, 09:44:00 PM
Announcing: Go On A Picnic

The above is the title of the latest addition to the First Readers Stories under My Own Books. In this story, the reader and a named friend go to the park for a picnic. Those interested can see the story at:
http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/books/Readers/Picnic.html

As always, my stories are free of any charge or advertising, so this announcement is not in violation of any forum rules against advertising. It is provided as a service to teachers and parents who are looking for free reading material for their young readers.

The First Reader Stories are, as the title suggests, for the beginning readers. They feature simple sentences and one-two lines of print per page. Each story include background music. The stories can be read online, or can be printed into little booklets.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on July 29, 2007, 10:44:20 AM



Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius-and a lot of courage-to move in the opposite direction. - Albert Einstein


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on July 29, 2007, 01:28:02 PM
David,

Glad to see someone is around during the summer! Despite the quote, wasn't Albert Einstein the man who helped invent the atomic bomb? Or am I mixing up my geniuses?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on July 29, 2007, 09:15:02 PM
There's a good chance Albert thought of himself as a fool. - David


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on July 30, 2007, 12:48:06 AM
David,

That would be interesting to know for a fact. Or not.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on July 31, 2007, 10:04:41 AM
Announcing a new series!

Thanks to the children of the lady who wants to publish my books in South Africa, I have added a new series to my books: The Geography Hat series. I've just finished and uploaded the first story in the series, Reader Walks the World. In this story, the reader learns about the world map, the continents and oceans. The reader sings a song to the tune of He's Got The Whole World In His Hands while he or she treks from one body to another until all have been visited. See it at: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/books/Geography/WalkWorld.html

Laurie, since this is a combination of music and learning, I am especially interested in your opinion of the book and the series.

I have also put some effort into prettying up the indexes to the various series and including an alphabetical list of all the stories with indication of the interest and reading levels who may enjoy them. See it all at: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/books


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on July 31, 2007, 09:39:59 PM
Thanks, Laurie,

The first time I had students walk on a map was when I was teaching adults in a GED program while working on my degree. Once they got on the map, they could begin to learn the N-S-E-W directions and the relationship of the states on the map (it was a US map). A few yrs ago, I suggested my sister draw a world map on an old sheet for Andrew to learn the continents and oceans. But, I hadn't yet thought of the song. I wish I had thought of it back when I taught geography. It would have made learning the words easier on the student.

BTW, If you're going to have students walk on a map, make sure they take their shoes off first. Saves wear and tear on the map.
 
Hope you can use it!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on August 03, 2007, 12:31:34 AM
Or, the computers on which you can read, and make those "connections" faster "when the meaning cannot be "inferred" without outside knowledge".

My generation had to reach middle-age, or to mature before we could infer anything from some forty years of accumulated facts and figure out the inter-relationships.

I'm not sure what your generation is, obviously, but I think I disagree with you about the need to mature or to reach middle-age prior to being able to infer from facts.

I am also very unsure that the computers teaches one to make those connections as much as it makes the connections for one.

There are people who are inclined, naturally, to make connections, some at an almost word play level (someday, my prints will come) and others at a more meta-cognitive level. Trying to teach inference is, at best, a non-trivial activity. And watching somebody whose dominant thinking style is linear attempt to forge those relationships quickly gives an understanding of the origin of the concept of 'non sequitur.'


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on August 03, 2007, 12:36:33 AM
Obviously, I am a newbie on this forum - and did not frequent the education forum on the Times, so the players and issues are somewhat new to me, though I recognize a few names and styles of posting! So, first a question and then a new topic:

1) I have gone back to mid-May in my reading (and gotten an eyeful!). Are there particularly interesting or notable threads from before that that you might recommend?

2) Given the date and overall quiet here, what are people's thoughts on the 180 day school year vs. going year round (or shortening it, for that matter)? And yes, this is also relevant to at least some homeschoolers, either because they use an umbrella school or because they live in a state which mandates reporting based on the academic calendar.

Josh


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 03, 2007, 01:19:48 AM
Josh,

Welcome to the forum. Madupont is of long-tooth! So am I, but I think her teeth are longer than mine since she is a font of wisdom on decades that precede my knowledge.

As a teacher, I cherished the summer months as a time for renewal. Before becoming a teacher I worked in the insurance field and had the usual one week of summer vacation. During my teaching years only once did I teach summer school, usually spending the summer taking courses, catching up on reading and current event (that I didn't have time to pursue during the busy school year), and making the new materials to use in the coming year. Without the summer vacation, as I learned the year I didn't have one, I was not able to fully withstand the rigors of the schools year at the level demanded by my students' needs. Perhaps it is a personal failing.

As for the students, some make excellent use of their summer "break" from formal studies to broaden their knowledge in other areas. Some, as we know, do not.

I think that if we can offer summer schools as an option that does not have the stigma of being a "remediation" for those who "failed" during the year, but as an opportunity for enrichment, a chance to explore favorite subjects in greater depth, we would offer a great service to those students who make poor use of their summer vacation. I would not want to compel all students to give up the summer, because there are some who make good use of the time.

Summertime, here in Virginia, is awfully hot, and without expensive air conditioning, a classroom would be unthinkable. Spending a summer without outdoor activities, playing, exercising, swimming and making friends, would also be a loss to students.

Here, in a rural area, there is a distinction. The students who live in the small towns with parents who are at work or have no transportation, are at a loss. But, the children who live on farms or with parents who can make camp or travel an important part of the summer, are at a great advantage. Tomorrow I am going to visit some great-nieces and nephews who are spending two weeks in Virginia with their aunt in Virginia, from their home in Michigan. I would certainly not want to see year-round school interfere with their opportunity to see another part of the country, hear different versions of the language, visit beaches, museums, historical sites, and play with children who talk differently. If there is no upset in plans, the day will be spent at a Children's Museum in Richmond which is rich in hands-on science activities that there is nothing similar in their home area. With any luck, they will also be able to go to the Chesapeake Bay for a day or two, which is quite unlike their usual haunt on the shore of Lake Erie, or a day trip to Lake Michigan.  They will play in salt water and see different forms of plant and animal life. No matter how their time is spent here this summer, it will be more enriching than spending the same time in a classroom back home.

As I said before, how the summer vacation is spent determines whether school is a good place for students, or if home or travel is better. Sadly, far too often, summer schools are on an even tighter budget than the school year, and enriching trips are even rarer.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on August 03, 2007, 02:23:09 AM
Do you believe, then, that our schools do what they are supposed to do? Do you believe that they manage to prepare the students for a) the next level, (middle, junior high, secondary, or college, as the case may be?)

If not, then are you suggesting that more time would not help to fix the problem?

If you think that they are doing the job and do not need either reform or more time, then why do they get such negative press?

And - if they are doing the job, could they do it in less time? After all, the length we are at was hardly arrived at by a scientific process - there is little pedagogical research that shows we accidentally tripped across the ideal length for a school year!
**********

I am a teacher, also. My first experience, while in high school, was some 35 years ago. I've loved teaching ever since. I am a former director of the (ask if you want to know). I've also taught in public and private settings, working with autistic kids, regular 6th grade math, and a variety of gifted programs, prior to serving as headmaster of a small private school for 6 years.

These days, I work with homeschoolers, and I work for a public school system teaching an out-of-school rising 9th grader. in addition to a variety of other activities.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 03, 2007, 07:59:10 AM
Josh,

I appreciate knowing of your career in the education field. I came to education a bit later in life, since I didn't start college until I was 32 and mother of two budding teenagers. I began teaching as they were graduating from high school.

I think curricula has taken a turn for the worst when it broadens the scope of what is leaned by make that learning shallow in most areas. I think that, students benefit from going in depth on subjects that are of interest to them, and letting some pass a given individual by.

I, too, have some experience with educating the autistic, but not directly as a teacher, but as a mentor to my sister with two autistic sons. For awhile, when she was completely frustrated with what was offered in the public schools for one of her sons, she homeschooled him for awhile. My job was to help her find materials and develop a curriculum to put the academics in his education which the public schools were soretly neglecting. For Andrew, I developed the personalized stories that incorporated practice in reading with learning history, in an effort to broaden his reading interest from a center on Disney books that tracked what he enjoyed in Disney videos. It worked, and from the beginning, began writing the personalized books that are now sixty strong on my website. This summer, I am in the process of adding geography to the history and pedantic books for young readers. Although originally intended for older chldren with limited reading skills, they have gained a popularity with beginning readers who delight in seeing their own names in a story. In one of the first books for Andrew, he goes back in time to help Betsy Ross make the first flag, and meet George Washington. Andrew explains to Betsy the significance of the stars and stripes, and George Washington tells him he is smart. My sister commented that it was probably the first time that anyone told Andrew he was "smart", and he carried the book around with him for days, pointing to that line in the story. Putting him in the story made the story as real to him as the video tapes did for the Disney books, and he was able to grow in his reading skills.

During my years as a special ed teacher specializing in the learning disabled and later, the mildly retarded mixed in, I was an avid student of the Learning Styles theories and used them to make my students more comfortable in class so they could learn more. My focus was on "Teaching the kids they way they can learn", which is a partial quote by Ken Dunn. Rita Dunn first turned me onto Learning Styles, and I had the assistance of one of her colleagues who became a life-long friend. I became familiar with the variations in learning style theories, but my core remained with the Dunn theories and does to this day.

After I left Special ed, I focused on the use of the computer to aid instruction, and for three fun-filled years, I taught a whole school of K-2nd graders how to use the computer and the Internet. It required that I further develop my skills are creating instructional web content, which has been the focus of my retirement years. The Internet can only fulfill it's promise to improve education, if there is good and useful content available online. And, I am one of many who are working to fill that void, especially for the younger children.

So, no, I do not see a need to keep children in school year round in order to complete a shallow curriculum such as we are seeing today. I favor giving the children more time to explore their non-academic interests, and to pursue academic interests in more depth than can be done in the typical overcrowded classroom. The testing devices in current use test knowledge to a very shallow level which seems to be driving the curriculum. It is decidedly NOT true that the only learning that is of value is that which we can measure on subjective tests.

Thanks for joining us, Josh. I look forward to learning more about your philosophy of education and more about the wide range of experience you bring to this board.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 04, 2007, 06:49:57 PM
As an educator, I believe tests have a function, but too much of anything is just too much. NCLB tests the wrong things and for the wrong reasons. Tests should tell the teacher what she needs to teach better. Tests should tell the parents where their child is strong and where their child is strong. Tests cannot tell which teachers are doing the best job, because children are not widgets.

Check out this funny "protest NCLB" song with a good graphics and a very funny opening by "our?" president. Even if it makes you want to cry, it will still make you laugh. Only with a "education president" could we come to such an event!

Go to:

http://www.educatorroundtable.net/showDiary.do?diaryId=257#870



Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on August 04, 2007, 09:20:39 PM
As an educator, I believe tests have a function, but too much of anything is just too much. NCLB tests the wrong things and for the wrong reasons. Tests should tell the teacher what she needs to teach better. Tests should tell the parents where their child is strong and where their child is strong. Tests cannot tell which teachers are doing the best job, because children are not widgets.

I am going to agree and disagree with you.

Let me start by noting that "No Child Leaps Ahead" is one of my least favorite bits of legislation ever, in a long weak history of education legislation at the federal level. It not only tests the wrong things for the wrong reasons, it tests them in the wrong ways and provides too little feedback in too long a period of time.

That said, I believe appropriate testing can tell you quite effectively when teachers are consistently not doing their jobs, when they have situational biases, and other such issues. The notion of a 'value added' education is a rich one, if difficult to implement. When a teacher's students consistently do less well than others, consistently fail to grow academically at the rate one might have expected, then there is a problem - and the teacher is the likeliest factor. While it is hardly certain, it provides a good place to hunt.

NCLB provides no direct instructional value. If it provided truly meaningful data about the schools and teachers, it would be better, but it is often failing even in that.

One of the reasons that I believe in testing, in general, is because I do not believe in grades. Grades are for determining mastery and preparedness for moving on. The rest of it, at best, is a snapshot of immediate knowledge, preparedness, and awareness.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 04, 2007, 10:45:25 PM
Josh,

I believe you said that at some point, perhaps the present, you were in the job of the principal of a school. In that position, you were responsible for the actions of your teachers and their effectiveness. I know that oftimes a principal is stretched thin and cannot be in a classrooms as much as they would like, but I do feel it is their responsibility to know what is going on in their classrooms. A principal cannot impart leadership to a school is he/she is frequently out of the building, no matter how glittering the conference, or if he/she shut self up in the office and hopes for the best. The best principal is roaming the halls, ducking into classrooms, nosing about what is going on, and consequently KNOWS far faster than studying test results for a few years, which teachers aren't cutting it and cannot be salvaged. It takes far too long to weed out ineffective teachers using test results. Too many students have, in the interim, received an inadequate education.

In twenty years of teaching, I enjoyed mostly positive, friendly relationships with principals. In the one instance where the principal made himself unavailable, I stayed only the first year. That school was also the only school I taught at where a sizeable number of the teachers were, to my estimation, inadequate and unprofessional. When the principal poses as something other than an educational leader, the kids seem to sense it, and show their disrespect to the building, to the teachers, and to their peers.

Feel free to disagree based on your experience. We can discuss this further!



Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on August 05, 2007, 12:43:36 AM
Josh,

I believe you said that at some point, perhaps the present, you were in the job of the principal of a school. In that position, you were responsible for the actions of your teachers and their effectiveness. I know that oftimes a principal is stretched thin and cannot be in a classrooms as much as they would like, but I do feel it is their responsibility to know what is going on in their classrooms. <snip> The best principal is roaming the halls, ducking into classrooms, nosing about what is going on, and consequently KNOWS far faster than studying test results for a few years, which teachers aren't cutting it and cannot be salvaged. It takes far too long to weed out ineffective teachers using test results. Too many students have, in the interim, received an inadequate education.

I was a headmaster from 1990 - 1996. I was in the classroom, as well, and would not do it any other way. As surely as one knows the teachers by being in and out of the classroom, so too is it needful to build rapport with the students. As the 'master teacher' of a school, being in the classroom makes it easier to show not only that you talk the talk, but that you chalk the chalk.

My school was small enough that this was not much of an issue for me, regardless.

But while the ideal principal would do know his teachers that well, many principals are not ideal. And even when a principal knows a teacher is both ineffective and cannot be salvaged, too often the rules preclude removing said teacher from the classroom. Tests are one mechanism that can sometimes be agreed upon as an acceptable measurement.

Ideal? Hardly. Better than no such mechanism? You bet!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on August 05, 2007, 05:42:02 AM
josh

When a teacher's students consistently do less well than others, consistently fail to grow academically at the rate one might have expected, then there is a problem - and the teacher is the likeliest factor.

The teacher may be A factor, but the teacher is only one factor, and maybe not the main one,  What about the homeless child?  What about the child whose parents are not interested in their children's education?  What about the abused child?  What about the child who must work 25+ hours per week to help support her/his family?  What about the girl who is panicked because her period is 2 weeks late?  What about the child whose parents believe that an 8th grade education is sufficient and who tell that student that (s)he has gone to school long enough?  What about the child whose parents are illiterate in both English and their native language?  What about the child who comes to school never having been read to by her/his parents?
I have had all of the above situations in my classroom in my 43-year teaching career.  No, my kids bring a lot to the table, and to expect the teacher to be the main factor in these children's education is to vastly oversimplify the situation.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 05, 2007, 07:43:27 AM
Josh,

I am in Virginia, a right-to-work state where the unions do NOT set the rules, and a teacher can be dismissed much more quickly. Sadly, that is often abused, and, for example, an art teacher was dismissed last year in spite of a parent and student attempt to keep him on the job, because it was discovered that he maintained a unique form of art that he practiced outside the classroom. His "butt art" as it was called, was done under a different name and never mentioned in class, but thanks to the internet, someone found out, and the school board determined that his other mode of income was "immoral" and he was sacked. In another right-to-work state, a Kindergarten teacher was sacked when it was learn (again through the Internet) that during her college years she had made money to support herself and her studies by posing nude for pictures. Her life was now exemplary, and she did not even dress flashily in or out of school, but the community fathers determined that Kindergartners would be distracted by the knowledge that she had once posed in the nude and sacked her.

So, I really don't buy into the fact that testing the students is necessary in order to find out that a given teacher is ineffective or otherwise unsuited to teaching. I do have a preference for small schools where the principal can get to know all or most of the students by name. I remain unconvinced that there is benefit to building "small schools" within a large building. It seems to me that a school should be in its own place, not confined to a hall in a larger school building, in order to be an effective "small school".

I feel that the "trick" of assigning the "bad kids" to a teacher suspected of being ineffective in the hopes that she will feel overworked and resign is a very bad technique. I am also opposed to the practice of NOT helping a teacher suspected of being ineffectual. The teacher should be under an agreement to improve her/his practice and well supervised during the process. Team teaching and providing a classroom aide to a substandard teacher are two much better ways to eliminate the deliterious effects on students of someone who wandered into the wrong career. I am also not very please with the idea of promoting such teacher up into administrators. While they may have better administrative skills, they often are not suited to the leadership role expected of an administrator and become a cog in the wheel rather than a ball bearing.

BTW, are you familiar with the work of Dr. Harvey Silvers? One of my sisters, who is working on her masters in education, is extremely impressed not only with his research, but his "non-arrogant" personality that she sees in videos of his work as part of her course. I was always impressed with the work of Rita and Ken Dunn in the field of learning styles and individualized education, but they are now long of tooth and I am delighted to learn that new folks are stepping up to an area that I consider most important, especially in working with the diversity of students who fill our classrooms.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: Phoenix on August 07, 2007, 05:35:10 AM
The teacher may be A factor, but the teacher is only one factor, and maybe not the main one.

Well, knowing Josh as I do (and I do), I can promise you that, if nothing else, he is not blind to kids who have other stresses in their lives. That aside, I might also refer you to his original statement, which says not that the teacher is always the main factor, but is likeliest to be when all or most of the teacher's students consistently perform below what make sense.

And, because it's annoying me:

What about the girl who is panicked because her period is 2 weeks late?

That's completely irrelevant, because while it might (and even probably would) affect the girl's performance briefly, it would not affect her overall performance any more than a flu or a death in the family would--that is to say, a brief ripple, and then nothing.


What about the child whose parents believe that an 8th grade education is sufficient and who tell that student that (s)he has gone to school long enough?

Except that, in the United States, that isn't legal and the child has to stay in school until 16.


No, my kids bring a lot to the table, and to expect the teacher to be the main factor in these children's education is to vastly oversimplify the situation.

Whoop-dee-doo, and good for you. Evidently, you still need help reading the fine print.

To blame the teacher if one child, or a few children, fails to perform to what they probably should be performing to is certainly wrong. If most or all students do not perform at a level which they are capable of, the teacher is most likely to be the cause. There are other causes, and we can all look smart by listing them out, but suffice it to say, the claim here is that the teacher is most likely to be the source, not the only possible one.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 07, 2007, 08:06:07 AM
Phoenix,

The only way that the tests would be a measure of the teacher's success or lack of same would be if the class were tested at the beginning of the school year, and again, with the same measure, at the end of the intruction - the old concept of pre and post test. Then you would be measuring the teacher's success. If you tested the kids yearly, then compare this year's results to last year's results on a child by child by child basis and aggregate the whole to determine what the teacher accomplished. In addition, insure that there is a strong correlation between what is tested and what the teacher is teaching, what she has the resources to teach. And, make sure that the test items actually measures what they are intended to measure. In short, if you are going to claim scientificity, be scientific about the testing. At present this is not typically done. In science, the variables are well controlled so that when you test, the test tells you what it is supposed to. In the curent fashion of testing students to determine the efforts of the teacher, the many variables, such as those the Cap suggested, are not controlled. This renders the results quite suspect.

Tests can be an indication of what goes on in the classroom, but they are a very poor subsitution for the typical examination of lesson plans and observation of what is going on in the classroom that a good principal should be doing.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 07, 2007, 01:19:53 PM
Laurie,

We often agree on educational issues, and I will agree with you that spending a month in a building is a much better way of determining which teachers aren't cutting the mustard than looking at test scores. First of all, is a teacher is consistently underperforming, why hasn't she/he been removed after the first year or two? A good principal should be able to determine the worth of his/her teachers in the first year on the job and make the corrections necessary. And, I do not buy that union whine, that you can't remove bad teachers. You can, if nothing else to shift them into a different job without classroom responsibilities on their way out the door. You can also counsel them into leaving. You should NEVER load up a bad teacher with too many kids, or the lion's share of the problem kids. That hurts the kids more than it helps get rid of the teacher. Principals should take those first years before a teacher has earned tenure or a continuing contract, and use it to assess whether the teacher is going to be any good or not. Too often a bad teacher gets tenure because of teacher shortages, and any warm body is better than none. This then causes a problem when the shortage lifts and the teacher could be replaced with a better prospect. In short, good management at all times is VITAL to keeping a teaching staff that is stocked with only the best - for the sake of the children!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on August 07, 2007, 02:57:03 PM
The only way that the tests would be a measure of the teacher's success or lack of same would be if the class were tested at the beginning of the school year, and again, with the same measure, at the end of the intruction - the old concept of pre and post test. Then you would be measuring the teacher's success. If you tested the kids yearly, then compare this year's results to last year's results...

Yes.

Your whole argument against testing is based on its being done poorly. I totally agree that poorly done testing is not an effective means of determining anything, whether about the teacher, the school, the curriculum, or the student!

I test at the beginning of the year, not to establish a benchmark, but to find out what my students already know and how they learn (the aforementioned learning styles issue). I test throughout the year, in a variety of fashions, not to determine grades, but to determine if the student is learning the material. If not, then I ask myself (and usually the student) why not.

I test the student at the end of the year. Again, it is not for grades - it is to make the best possible recommendation for what the student might want to consider next in a given subject (remembering that I have been a math teacher, among other things).

If I were ever to have the bulk of a group of students not have learned at least a "year's worth" of a subject at the end of a year, I would be seriously examining all assumptions - but I ought to have known the problem and addressed it long before the end of the year!

Implementing solid (not perfect) testing is easier than guaranteeing competent principals and equitable retraining and firing practices, I believe.

Both would be optimal - appropriate testing and alternative assessment should be a staple of every teacher and every school.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 07, 2007, 06:03:32 PM
Josh,

I do agree with all you said about the teacher using testing to guide his/her practice. If teachers do it well, there is little or no need for outside testing of any kind, and, in fact, that was the practice until the current generation.

When I began teaching, the standardized tests were used every few years and were part of the student's file. They were not discussed or the results flaunted in the newspaper. The results were not given to politicians to make judgements on. They were personal measures of how the child was doing. In the school, the teacher assigned grades based on her own agenda for assigning grades. Some part came from tests, daily work, homework and projects, but some part always came from the teacher's observation of the student. If the teacher said that the child had made a year's worth of growth in learning, that fact was not questioned. If the teacher recommended the child repeat the year to spread the year's worth of growth over two years, the child repeated the grade.

The growth of the standardized test movement during the current administration has seriously undermined the teacher's authority and questioned his/her ability to determine when and if a child has made the required progress during a school year. Most of my teaching years were before this movement began. I am a great admirer of the Learning Styles movement, especially Rita and Ken Dunn, and am disappointed that so much of what is happening in education is not recognizing the right of children to be individuals.

I applaud you as a math teacher. It is one subject that I was never successful at teaching. Somehow, the concepts of how and why math and its algorithms eludes me and whenever I attempt to teach it my results are mediocre. On the other hand, I have gotten great results from teaching reading, English, writing, literature, and the various social studies. In science, I do well primarily with biology, astronomy, and general science, but have never even attempted to teach chemistry or physics. Of course, these sciences rely more heavily on mathematical knowledge than on the book reading and understanding that I do so much better.

Since the late eighties, when I first got a modem, I have been an advocate for applications of the internet in learning all subjects. It is easy these days to find whatever content you want to teach, in great detail, on the internet. But, back at the beginning, it was primarily a tool to help learning disabled students learn to read and write. It was that beginning, in seeing that children who had resisted all the scientific means of learning to read, were encourage to dive in when reading a missive received from around the world that was address to them specifically. On paper, they wrote simple sentences, easy words, and not in much depth, but when they were explaining something to a fellow LD student half way around the world, they showed everything they knew and more. That was when I realized that I could reach my students better by personalizing as much of their materials as possible. My current extension of that concept is in the personlized stories called My Own Books at http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/books for the young or slow-start readers. I would have loved to have had access to such books when I was teaching my LD high school students, and I could have made good use of them with my primary computer lab students in later years.

Back to tests, I do feel that testing as Josh describes, which is now considered "old-fashioned", is how tests are best used. The results of tests are of interest to the teacher, the students, the parents, and the immediate local leadership usually in the person of the principal. Standarized tests, which they all-glorious secrecy, so that the teacher cannot look back at the actual question the child missed, are nearly useless, and cost way more than the value they provide.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 07, 2007, 11:24:04 PM
Laurie,

Apparently I haven't made myself clear. There are certainly "bad" teachers. I tend to call them "ineffective". But, I do not think that standardized testing is the means to weed them out. I think testing should be used by the teacher to guide instruction. There are too many outside variables for the standardized tests to show for sure, when a teacher is ineffective, and to show that quickly enough to keep from harming students. There are two points in a teacher's career when she/he should be under close scrutiny: in the first years, and in the waning years. In the waning years, if the teacher has been effective, it is human decency to provide a position outside the classroom that can utilize whatever strengths the teacher still has. In the early years, proper supervision should weed out those who are not cutting it before the gain tenure or a continuing contract. In mid-career, teachers may need a change to a different subject/grade level, or a different type of student to keep them fresh and on their toes. Boredom does set in and can be solved with a different view.

In my opinion, a lot of the "bad" teachers are those who were kept onboard because the administration preferred to keep a "warm body" than to fight a shortage of teachers (in those parts of the country where there are shortages). These teacher should never gain tenure or a continuing contract (Virginia's version of tenure). If the only teachers who are allowed to gain tenure are those who are definitely good teachers, there will be fewer teachers that have to be removed in mid career.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on August 08, 2007, 03:00:23 AM
lhoffman,

Me, I call bad teachers exactly that, "bad".

As do I.  I have encountered more than a few in my 43-year teaching career.
On the other hand, in most states a teacher has a 3-year probationary period before (s)he obtains tenure.
If an administrator cannot tell within that time that a teacher is "bad" and permits that teacher to remain, there is no one to blame except the administrator in question.
Also, despite the popular misconception, tenure is not the equivalent of lifetime employment.  It merely guarantees a teacher minimal  due process prior to being terminated.  If a "bad" tenured teacher is permitted to stay on, the sole reason is that the administrator is too lazy or too incompetent to build the required case that would stand up in a tenure hearing.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 08, 2007, 07:32:44 AM
Laurie,

I definitely was not thinking of those types of bad teachers, and I will call them bad. I was thinking about the teacher who are ineffective and whose failure may show up on annual tests conducted over a number of years. That is where the conversation began.

Certainly, teachers who cannot communicate effectively on their own with parents are bad, and no amount of testing will ever reveal that. IF the immigrant parents do not speak English, and IF the student cannot translate for them, and IF the principal is good at the parents' language, it make sense to call the principal into such conferences. Otherwise, it is just an attempt to intimidate the parents.

As to the teacher stalking and making improper advances, they should be fired on as soon as it is established that they are guilty. And, they should have their teaching license revoked so that they cannot be hired anywhere else. I knew a teacher who fell in that trap. She was a good teacher for many years, and part of my online circle. I went to visit her one year to get her class going on making a website. When we enjoyed some wine in the evening, she confessed that she was tempted by the sexuality of her young male students, but she also said she was in counseling, so I just listened provided an ear to her. About a year later, she emailed me to say that she had run away west with a former student, gotten a job on the west coast, and was living with that former student. I had a lot to say to her for abandoning her own sons in their adolescence, and never heard from her again.

For the most part, Laurie, the "badness" I encountered with teachers was a refusal to participate in inclusion when an LD student was ready for the wider world of education, or when they needed to be in a regular class for a vocational or similar type skill that I could not provide in my classroom. In two instances, the refusal of the teacher to accept the inclusion student resulted in their reprimand and retirement.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 09, 2007, 12:57:50 PM
Calling all experts:

I am writing a story about how an idea become a law. The idea is for all students to have laptop computers. The Reader begins by going to the National Archives to read the constitution. Then he/she goes to the Capital to find out what committee to start with. Meets George Miller and the idea is proposed to the Education and Labor Committee. From there does it go next to the house, or to the ways and means committee before the full house? I know from the house it goes to the senate. Does it have to be reviewed by Ted Kennedy's Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee before going to the full senate? After the senate, of course, it goes to the president for signing.

At what point would it be best to reduce the cost from that of supplying computers to all students, to requiring computers for all students, but financing it only for children who qualify for free lunch? At what point, if any, should consideration be made to tax video games to provide the funding for the computer?

Thanks to any and all who help me with this plot. Yes, it is a fictional story intended to teach children how laws come to be. We do not need to debate the merits of the law itself, although I could include some objections brought to the floor of the House or Senate against the law. That would make it more realistic.


 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on August 09, 2007, 07:54:47 PM
Calling all experts:

I am writing a story about how an idea become a law. The idea is for all students to have laptop computers. The Reader begins by going to the National Archives to read the constitution. Then he/she goes to the Capital to find out what committee to start with. Meets George Miller and the idea is proposed to the Education and Labor Committee. From there does it go next to the house, or to the ways and means committee before the full house? I know from the house it goes to the senate.

Okay... let me see if I can provide some clarity.

  • I have an idea for a bill.
  • I can approach a) my U.S. Rep's office, my U.S. Senator's office, some member of the pertinent House committee whom I think shares my perspective, or some member of the pertinent Senate committee whom I think shares my perspective. (If I do not know which committee would handle such a thing, either my Rep's office or my Senator's office will be happy to tell me.) (I could also approach a major lobbying group... but that is a different story, I think!)
  • My Rep. or Senator is excited by my idea. YAY! (More often, his staffer in this area is excited, but I'll settle for that.) Somebody on that staff works to craft a bill.
  • At the same time that this is happening, one of the staff, sometimes the same person, sometimes not, will be seeking potential co-sponsors in the one house and potential sponsors in the other house of Congress, so that it is moving forward in both at the same time.
  • Before anybody anywhere gets to vote on the meet of the bill, it has to get scheduled for discussion and vote. This is, unfortunately, a trickier part of the process than one might expect.

I could go through the rest of the steps, but somebody has already done a better job of it than I would. I refer you to "How a Bill Becomes Law" (http://clerkkids.house.gov/laws/bill_begin.html (http://clerkkids.house.gov/laws/bill_begin.html)) on the Kids in the House website.

At what point would it be best to reduce the cost from that of supplying computers to all students, to requiring computers for all students, but financing it only for children who qualify for free lunch? At what point, if any, should consideration be made to tax video games to provide the funding for the computer?

The cost of the bill is going to be an issue. I think you will never be able to require it of all students but only pay for those getting free lunch. This becomes an unfair form of taxation and will not hold up in court. Similarly, the question of how to pay for it is a sticky one. But for the sake of your book, rather than proposing the singular tax you mention, you might mention the many different ways that things are currently paid for and/or taxed currently. If there is an intention to pay for it by means of a specific method, that would b included within the scope of the initial (or subsequent) version of the bill.

Good luck.

Oh - If I were you, I might wander out to Thomas to look at various bills at various stages in the process as outlined.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 09, 2007, 09:06:46 PM
Thanks, Josh,

Since I wrote, I found that Kids House site, and totally scraped what I had written so far. I think I will have the Reader approach their own representative (they will have to enter the name), and their own senator, as sponsors for their bill. I want to include the tax on video games to illustrate that a trade off between what you want and what you need is present even at the national level. Video games are a want, a computer for learning is (at least in my opinion) a need, or at least a greater need than the video games. I may be putting more of my own political views into this story than I do with most of my stories. (oh, my!). I'm thinking at present, the major audience for this story will be from 3rd to 6th grade. These are the years when most students are learning the rudiments of government and the enactment of laws.

Thanks for your help!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 09, 2007, 11:03:37 PM
Laurie,

Although I couldn't listen to the Schoolhouse Rock site since hubby is asleep now, I will listen to it tomorrow. I'd found sites with the words to some of the Schoolhouse Rock songs, but never the music. Now, I can add them, and the Kids House site to Mrs. P's Links!

I know Schoolhouse Rock is not past copyright yet, but I think I remember something called the Typewriter Song that may be old enough to be out of copyright. If you can think of any other music that might fit the story, let me know. Perhaps it will help to see the finished story. I need to sleep on it and will start it over tomorrow. I seem to remember finding a link to look up your representative by your zipcode that I have on my old government site. But, if they put in their own representative, I can only do clipart of a politician which is not as good as having an actual picture.

Well, next week the teachers in Richmond return to school.  And, we are in the midst of a heat wave which the news yesterday called the highest temperature since 1918. Politicians in Richmond are talking about going to a year round schedule, with two week holiday in fall, winter and spring and a shorter summer vacation. It will be interesting to see if it comes about. I'm sure that when the school board considers it, they will hear from all the employers of cheap summer labor in the city! Several years ago, the state legislature was bullied into passing a law saying that schools could not open until after Labor Day because the resorts weren't happy with the schools that opened in August to allow enough time for snow days. It was called the King's Dominion law, and eventually went under the rug after a few years of heavy snow that kept the kids in school until almost the 4th of July and disrupted the college summer classes that teachers needed to take. Seems a lot of folks depend on that summer vacation!





Title: Gifted Students
Post by: josh on August 13, 2007, 12:41:18 PM
What are your thoughts on gifted students? Do they exist? Should schools provide curriculum or instruction explicitly for them? Granting for the sake of the discussion that we either spend too much on all or not enough on all, is the amount spent on gifted programs disproportionate -either on the high side or the low side?

If you think that some students are gifted, what do you mean by the term?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 13, 2007, 03:41:13 PM
Josh,

I anwered your question on gifted education in part on the Campaign Trail board, but I will go into it again.

I think that all children who fall below or above the norms, or have problems that place them out of the norm for behavioral reasons, or due to special talents, should be provided with an individualized education. I think that IEP should be developed for each child whose characteristics are outside the "norms" (and I will leave it to others to determine what the norms are), and that the carrying out of that IEP be fully funded.

A few weeks ago a branch of the family visited Virginia. The oldest girl, my great-niece, is a precocious 5-6 year old who put together the art of reading during the first months of Kindergarten. Their visit to Virginia (from Michigan) was full of visits not only to satisfy Libby's needs, but also to meet the needs of her 3 year old sister and 15 month old brother. One of the things they did for Libby was to take her to the National Archives in Washington, so she could fulfill her wish to see the Declaration of Independence in the original with her own eyes. As her daddy held her up to see the display, she became very excited at the original signatures on the document, exclaiming in particular over the signature of John Adams.

When I visted a few days later, I arrived with toys and copies of my latest book on "Walking the World" which is basically re-written verses to "He's Got the Whole World In His Hands" to name each of the continents and oceas in a walking tour of a map on the floor, so the child sings, "I've got North America at my feet".... etc. Libby was able to read the names of all the continents and oceans, but the word "geography" was new to her, and she stumbled over the word "continents" although she understood what they were. Libby has been a constant fan of my books, written with a high content level for special ed students, but an easy reading level. She has voraciously consumed all of the history books beginning when she was three and her mother read them to her over and over at bedtime., and I developed the First Readers especially for her last year. She is now reading beyond the scope of those books.

I am curious how she will react to the new book I am working on now in which the Reader gets an idea (to provide computers to all school children) and successfully guides it through Congress to a signing by the President. I have finished the text of the story, and am working now on the spacing and illustrations. It should be ready for public viewing later this week, and I'll announce in on this board.

My experience with the gifted is limited mostly to family members (of course, they are many! <grin>). But it seems to me that what the general gifted child need most is to go into greater depth in given subjects and topics, rather than racing through the content to get to some projected "higher level" at a shallow experience. For example, in learning about the Revolutionary War, such children should go into depth on the times, the characteristics of the people both the common folk and those who made the pages of history, and explore the reasons at, what could be called an "adult level" rather than racing through a memorization of names, dates, and battle outcomes. They should know that national heroes had clay feet, even if they do not need to know specifics, such as Thomas Jefferson's dalliance with Sally Hemings. It is sufficient to know that this great proponant of individual freedom did not extend his philosophy to the people he owned that essentially paid his extravagant bills by their unrewarded labor.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on August 14, 2007, 05:40:54 PM
From the Campaign Trail, comes this observation:
"The point is that the SAT is a widely accepted norm by which student ability is rated." This was presented in the context of its use in another country.

Do you believe that the SAT is a good indicator of student ability? Why or why not? If not, then what might be? If so, then why use all those other tests each state has spent bundles developing?!

How do you feel the ACT compares with it?

Do you think that coaching helps on the SAT and if so, how does that impact your thoughts on it as an admission test or as a determinant of student ability?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 14, 2007, 07:33:39 PM
Josh,

I will fall back on the intent of the SAT which is to determine if students will be successful in their first year of college. It is not intended to be a general examination of a student's ability, and should not be considered as such. The need for the state tests is to test what the state has prescribed to be taught. Virginia has a very structured curriculum, http://www.pen.k12.va.us/VDOE/Superintendent/Sols/home.shtml ... and has tests that specifically measure whether or not students have learned the material that has been determined on the SOLs to be significant.

My own feeling, is that coaching for the SAT invalidates any evidence of whether the student has inate abilities to succeed in college or not.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 14, 2007, 07:39:26 PM
Not to diminish Josh's examination of the SAT tests, let me pose a new question for those who are interested.

I just got an email from the grandmother of 11 year old twins somewhere in Louisianna, who found my Famous Americans site (http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/famamer ) and wrote to thank me for it, as she is going to use it to help her grandchildren expand their learning the rest of the summer.

She asked me if I could compile a list of what I think are the most important facts and persons for today's children to learn about, mentioning that what was learned in her day (probably same time as mine), is not so well taught anymore.

I've sent her the SOLs (curriculum) for Virginia, but would like to compile the list she asked for. I cannot do such an undertaking on my own (I'm finishing up a new personalized story and have two more "in the works"), so I will ask that those interested compile a list of what you think kids should learn in elementary social studies.

Thanks to all who make contributions. If desired, I'll post the final list on a website.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 15, 2007, 08:00:25 PM
As promised, here is a link to the latest story, in which the Reader proposes a law and follows it through to the presidential signing:

http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/books/Government/MakeLaw.html

The purpose of the story is to acquaint the reader with how laws are made, and also show the reader who his/her representative and senator are in congress. Hopefully, after they have heard the name, and if they are around when the local news is on, they will begin to recognize their elected officials.

I'm not sure how to solve the problem of those who live in the districts of George Miller, Nancy Pelosi and who may choose Ted Kennedy as their Massachusetts Senator. I could just wait until someone says it is a problem. I could three additional stories with a slight twist for those who enter those names. Have to think about it some more. Josh, I think you said you were in MA. See if it poses a problem for you?



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 23, 2007, 08:10:50 AM
Still quiet in here? Hmmmmmmm

I'll share the following link:

http://www.teachermagazine.org/tm/articles/2007/08/22/06bogard_web.html?levelId=1000&tmp=1038807686&rale2=KQE5d7nM%2FXAYPsVRXwnFWYRqIIX2bhy1%2BKNA5buLAWGoKt77XHI2terRpWBSgktL4bXgTCDsilGS%0Avw15aNnaQnL80QSNKNV1ZIyadIh%2BC4rh%2F9BFEakU7ZHII%2Fmu01CUEpLNhfZ%2FY5RTSAFMoROfwTsH%0AAsyDLJnT9czpjKHi7khQUPRB5iYdtzsW2J6xAowc9MVQuwb%2FWlbvv200fH2RnhsbxQyA6K0QVuhH%0ALzNDIc8X%2BI%2Fb8nt35ZSzM%2FuKwZyuaPQP4kEQdXIGf8gsnKo2UZHII%2Fmu01CUZqeSJgz3EN8Wc%2FCU%0ArLGOAcvx1wiVOIEJnARASny%2FMeuiNRBMQ3jDnr0Kz8K%2BeMZe9RPOCjCGUxHBU7RV9WNG%2FOT4qmpJ%0AonaHNHIG4grfnrFW6EcvM0Mhz6X9j%2BLoUNqfOyyrXc5CIQpiPADH6%2BFquOoRm%2F%2F5CeGAn7Wm4Fxn%0AoJ7FPvwtWnIzHmI8AMfr4Wq46hGb%2F%2FkJ4YDtZ2WMqQ7t7GlcIH9%2FZcqfpu2skyXOUxQFqo5u%2B%2FTY%0ASYxFCKmjNJdaS7w7eUsA0ExduS5R%2Bd7Yq0WRurzpTCAWvNRVGu98sox9hFYfOsGgfRRRIcWfNf%2BB%0AKcNTUnTya%2FscMBT0sSBimDjq6YRW6sWGZTwYmRrr3mDlTwYOz206OIBu4FdzPjc45xCiV1TdfmMQ%0AtFJNAMqzDCoHfTFjNUQ6iz14h%2BFcSFg0jXYiBcOAnxwtZHv%2F0hBLl4YA3KlEjqyK5jNFTe1jKw%3D%3

Then, I will ask why it is considered an unworthy complaint when a public school employee points out the unreasonableness of NCLB, but when a private school employee laments the fact that her school may be labeled as "failing" because of the unreasonableness of the "goals" set by non-educator, it gets circulated!

The children in the Lift for Life Academy are the "cream" of the students in the St. Louis public schools. The students left behind in the public schools with too many students per class do not have the opportunities or the "incentive" of the academy students. Yet, it is OK with the author to take away the accreditation of the St. Louis public schools for failing the children, but it is lamentable when the same standards are applied to a charter school serving the very same type of students.

If it is just too difficult for an urban child with no exposure to classical music and its instrumentation, to answer a question on the MAP, then what in the world is the question doing on the test anyway? It would seem that the MAP sets up deprived children to fail its measures.

What think the rest of you?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: Donotremove on August 23, 2007, 12:46:02 PM
Weezo, I think education has now become so political (not to mention tenure oriented) that the mission statement--educating the young--has been lost (or muddied to the point of non recognition.)  Also, teaching seems to have been downgraded into just a job whereas in my day it was a calling.

One thing is certain, if education is as important as everyone says it is, teachers need to be paid wage that reflects that.  The standards for being allowed to teach should be nation wide and any would-be teacher should have to pass tests that prove attainment of such standards.

Are teaching certificates national, or state?  IMO they should be national.  We have, after all, a "general" culture, however much our regional differences.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 23, 2007, 02:22:46 PM
Donot,

Under the constitution, anything not stated as federal authority, is a state responsibility. Education falls under that category. The policalization of education has happened as the feds have wedged in more an more authority.

Most experienced teachers consider teaching a calling and a profession, but that is probably because most of the teachers I know, as one of them, sees their dedication. To a parents whose child has just been overlooked for some honor because the teacher saw more in another student, it may seem like teaching is just a job. Certainly, if you run into a bunch of teachers in a bar on a Saturday night, they will talk about their jobs in the same manner as any other worker in that bar. But come Monday morning, armed with a cup of java, they are again the professional responding to a calling.

Certification of teachers is not the problem. The problem is in hiring uncertified teachers, keeping them on staff while they are supposed to be earning accreditation, and then discovering after the use of them as a warm body has passed the tenure stage, that you cannot easily eliminate them.

In most, if not all states, the certification is based on attaining at least a bachelor's degree in the subject they will teach, or in education in general if they will be teaching at the elementary level. Special education teachers are required to get a degree in special education, which, at least around here, is a BS rather than a BA degree because of the heavy dose of social sciences, medical knowledge and assorted other non-humanities that go into identifying and serving the special population. Contrary to the beliefs of the public in general, a special ed teacher usually has more education than the regular teachers.

And, state certification is just fine, if the school districts would base their hiring on all candidates having those certificate prior to beginning the job. I read yesterday that LA is unable to find enough teachers to fill their positions, so they are "going overseas" for hiring. What? Not even a degree from an American college or university? No certification? Again, they are filling slots with warm bodies. As long as school districts continue such practices, you can have all the tests, all the national certifications, all the hoops to jump through that you want, and it will not make one whit of difference. If the districts persist in hiring warm bodies, that is all they will have staffing their schools.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on August 23, 2007, 04:04:15 PM
Anne,

As long as school districts continue such practices, you can have all the tests, all the national certifications, all the hoops to jump through that you want, and it will not make one whit of difference. If the districts persist in hiring warm bodies, that is all they will have staffing their schools.

Just so!!
If the politicians who claim they want world-class education while paying third-world salries were really serious aboout education, they would pay enough to attract the best.

A starting salary of, let us say $55-60K sounds about right.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 27, 2007, 06:36:56 AM
I found the following article thought-provoking:
http://www.projo.com/education/juliasteiny/content/se_educationwatch26_08-26-07_V26QUST.21412d4.html

As a teacher, I've seen a fair share of children from dysfunctional families who were allowed to slip under the ropes and not get a better deal even after years of effort on the part of the teacher/school. I know that foster care is, at best, a bandaid over the problem. Children need love and support, and the structure of foster homes is not to provide these, so much as just to put a roof over the kid's head and a decent meal in their stomach. This isn't enough.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: Donotremove on August 27, 2007, 11:50:01 AM
Weezo, this is pure speculation on my part but I suspect that most "needy" kids (in every sense of the term) are not getting what they need, that, hit and miss, they are raising themselves, with lots of them ending up in our prisons, regardless of whether they are home or fostered.  We have too many adults either overwhelmed with "life" and not fuctioning properly, or reared so poorly themselves that successful raising of children is a crap shoot, or fill in the blanks.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: madupont on August 27, 2007, 12:30:43 PM
I think that the "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" educational policy initiated by Bush was to drop out the senior class teen-agers at high school level promptly, otherwise why would he have sent around instructions to the individual schools in every state in the nation addressing the issue that the front office of any high school must send in the data on each student coming of age and when?

I found this out rather late in the game from one war protest church group down here when I went up to Lehigh Valley about a year and a half ago for workshops in yet another church in the Peace movement. Many of the faculty receiving this request through a school's office were convinced that the way the request was worded suggested that they would get some teaching aids in the form of materials which schools were unable to afford, if they cooperated with a government request. Were they fooled; they were overworked Naive.  The materials were rewards to individual of age students who signed up on recruitment day every two weeks in the main foyer lobby of every high school where federal gov't could match  up the high unemployment rates against their project of more bodies shipped out to Iraq.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: Donotremove on August 27, 2007, 12:57:47 PM
Maddy, such a scheme sounds about right for the Bush Administration.  His pick for Sec-of-Ed was the head hauncho for Houston schools--the one who was found out for cheating to bring up Houston schools grade averages to such rarified air that he came to national notice.  After he was chosen by Bush, investigation of the cheating petered out.

The Bush Administration is slime and everything it touches is suspect.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on August 27, 2007, 07:24:34 PM
I think that the "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" educational policy initiated by Bush was to drop out the senior class teen-agers at high school level promptly, otherwise why would he have sent around instructions to the individual schools in every state in the nation addressing the issue that the front office of any high school must send in the data on each student coming of age and when?

The requirement for schools to provide that data were explicitly to support the Selective Service system, not to force folks to drop out. The drop out rate increases caused by NCLB are a) unanticipated by President Bush because his dear adviser, the former Supt. of Houston, sold him a bill of goods; and b) for the majority of drop outs prior to senior year.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on August 27, 2007, 08:58:31 PM
Maddie,

When I was teaching, non of the services accepted high school drop outs, requiring a high school diploma. Even a GED was not acceptable. If, as you contend the high dropout rate was to replenish the military, they must have changed the requirements to join the service.

NCLB is a dastardly law that punishes schools who disproportionately serve the poor. It punishes schools for not doing better this year than last, but it measures this year's students by the results of last year's class. As any teacher can tell you, classes from one year to the next as as different as siblings within a family. You can't measure how Johnny does by camparing him to brother Joel.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on August 27, 2007, 09:11:10 PM
Maddy, such a scheme sounds about right for the Bush Administration.  His pick for Sec-of-Ed was the head hauncho for Houston schools--the one who was found out for cheating to bring up Houston schools grade averages to such rarified air that he came to national notice.  After he was chosen by Bush, investigation of the cheating petered out.

The Bush Administration is slime and everything it touches is suspect.

Waaaaaaaaah!!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 04, 2007, 02:04:09 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/04/bell.jena.six/index.html

Discuss


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 04, 2007, 02:31:35 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/04/bell.jena.six/index.html

Discuss

Thank you for the link, Kid. I had not tripped across that story, and while it is very disturbing, I am glad to have seen it. In some ways, it ties into this article one of the kids I work with sent me: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6977086.stm

I'm going to process a bit, and dig for more info before writing about it, but... wow.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 04, 2007, 05:00:21 PM
Yes.  Wow, indeed.

Sucks anytime any student is stomped like this.

Happy that justice is being served, no matter the eventual sentence.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 04, 2007, 08:59:06 PM
Kid,

If the kid who was stomped was throwing out racial epithets, something needed to be done. Assuming that was the cause of the fight, it was a good reason to throw punches. Such behavior is not to be nod, nod, wink, winked away any longer, even in Louisiana. It's pretty telling that if the black kids wanted to sit under a tree with the white kids, and the white kids hung the nooses, that the administration should have sent a stronger message than a 3 days suspension. Assuming that the CNN article was factual, the administration of the school failed to stem the terrorism that led to the fight.

Kid, you have said often that we should bomb Iran because they shoot off their mouths. That is what the black kids did. Yet, you seem to turn the other cheek in this instance. Have I misread you?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 04, 2007, 09:58:45 PM
..........it was a god reason to throw punches.

Attababy.  Use that upper level reasoning.  Neanderthal in yer blood, do ya?

regardless, maybe you missed that

a)  the BOOTS, the SHOES were the weapon of choice - (read:  He was being stomped, you IDIOT)

b)  The kid may be dead now if the thugs were not dragged off him

That you cannot envision that this may have been a payback crime - a "let's get a whitie for the other whities hanging the nooses" is comical.

Reggie Denny, anyone?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 04, 2007, 10:00:20 PM
Assuming (racial epithets were) the cause of the fight, it was a good reason to throw punches.

I cannot agree with that, and I am shocked that you would take that position.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 04, 2007, 10:06:47 PM


Kid, you have said often that we should bomb Iran because they shoot off their mouths.


Please just go fuck yourself.

Misrepresenting other forum members is beyond childish. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 04, 2007, 10:23:59 PM
Sorry, Josh,

I have lived in the south for some forty years now, and enough is enough. I've seen far too many people take too much of what is dished out without consequences. I'm not sure how the law defines "provocation", but racial epithets would, at least in my book, be such provocation. Certainly, the reluctance of the admin to take appropriate action and put an end to the racial expressions leaves it right in the kids' ballpark. ANY student who used a racial ephithet in my class was immediately sent to the office! I didn't allow racial disrespect either.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 04, 2007, 10:59:36 PM
Sorry, Josh,

I have lived in the south for some forty years now, and enough is enough. I've seen far too many people take too much of what is dished out without consequences. I'm not sure how the law defines "provocation", but racial epithets would, at least in my book, be such provocation. Certainly, the reluctance of the admin to take appropriate action and put an end to the racial expressions leaves it right in the kids' ballpark. ANY student who used a racial ephithet in my class was immediately sent to the office! I didn't allow racial disrespect either.

The problem is with the adults, no argument. If they do not behave responsibly, then it is harder to be shocked when the students do not, either.

But escalation to physical violence is not going to solve the problem - it is going to exacerbate it. Always has, always will, with the radicals on each side explaining "but if you don't kill them, they won't get the lesson! They'll just come back and kill you." That, inevitably, is followed by "And if we don't get them all first, they will try to get us all."

Violence begets violence.

(No, I am not saying there is never a place for it, merely that there are many many fewer places for it than the practitioners of it seem to think there are.)

Note: A case in point is Jake's argument elsewhere, about the "towelheads." He believes that we need to kill all of the "towelhead murderers" before our country can be safe. Oddly enough, they believe that they need to kill all of us so that they will be safe.

Both sides are wrong, and both sides are given ammunition by their counterparts.

The groups fighting the hardest against piece in either the Middle East or Northern Ireland are the radicals, because without the war, their lives lose meaning. "What if we were wrong, and peace was really possible?" ("And it is just a trick, anyway - we can't trust them to keep a peace! How do we know that? Because if we thought it would have worked, we would have tried the peace ruse on them, first!")


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 05, 2007, 12:10:40 AM
Josh,

You are right, of course. But, there is a time to rise to rightous indignation. The sit-in was tried. It resulted in the threat of violence (the nooses). That was dismissed by the authorities - a mere prank, ha, ha.  Then came the public epithets. It was time for the punch in the nose. And, perhaps the first punch didn't work, and the slurs kept coming, so the subsequent punches were called for.

Far too often, when the arrogance begins, no one intercedes. They allow it to escalate. And, then it is up to the kids to solve the problem.

But, I do agree with you on the national scope. In national affairs, we need to keep a cool head.






Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 05, 2007, 12:29:50 AM
Far too often, when the arrogance begins, no one intercedes. They allow it to escalate. And, then it is up to the kids to solve the problem.

But, I do agree with you on the national scope. In national affairs, we need to keep a cool head.


What do you think the stomping is, but escalation? Regardless of if it is the accused kids or some other kids, it is still felonious assault, with at least a risk of murder.

Nooses in the trees are offensive. Words are offensive - and in some countries, hate-words are illegal. This is not currently one of them.

Perhaps there was more instigation than we are aware of, more direct threats to them or those they loved. But I cannot make a decision based on conjecture - using the publicly available data, what the attacking persons was doing was, simply, criminal. It was the moral equivalent of our going into Iraq, as I see it, at best - a pre-emptive strike.

The kid gets stomped to death. His brother gets shotguns. The other side gets automatic rifles.

Is this truly what you want?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 05, 2007, 07:19:00 AM
Josh,

I agree, that based on the reported information, perhaps the stomping was not justified, but I have seen far too many of these provocations, and, as a results, am admittedly taking the side of the black boy not the position of the judge in the case. I am arguing for the defense of the accused. Yes, it did escalate to the fact that it was attempted murder. And, yes the black boy should be punished for it, albeit in the proper court. It was not an adult act, it was a school yard act, and it was provoked. He should be tried as a juvenile, since it was a juvenile response to the incident, not an adult response.

This case points out the need of the adults in schools and communities to take responsibility for the racially motivated beginning acts as they occur. To fail to do so is to court exactly the type of violence that occured.

I once spent a year teaching in a community that sounds much like Jena, LA. It was Emporia, VA. The townspeople were still enforcing every minute measure of Jim Crow. White teachers would trash the work of black students - dump it in the trash can in front of the student, as punishment for late work - even as they accepted late work from white students. There was no recourse. The black teachers responded in kind. It was impossible to get either side to provide the accommodations outlined in the IEP.

To cap it off, one white boy even threatened me with the KKK for giving him a deserved low grade when a black boy received a deserved high grade in the class. Needless to say, I served my year out there, and left. If we do not want children to take such issues into their own hands and respond it childish ways, we have to, as adults, take the bull by the horns and deliver true justice.

As an people, we responded to the oppression of the British monarcy with violence. Enough was enough. So, too it is with the children who are oppressed by the now illegal behavior or those who would continue the Jim Crow traditions. If laws are insufficient to curb this travesty, then our youth have the responsibility to act to bring it to a halt.

In the south, there are those apologists for the Confederacy who assert that the was was one of aggression by the north, rather than an attempt to right the wrongs of the evils of slavery. Such people maintain that the days of slavery were numbered, and if left to their own devices, the south would have abandoned the practice on their own, of course, with shipping the victims to the wilds of Africa so they couldn't enjoy the freedoms promised in the Declaration of Independence. In the minds of far too many southerners, only whites are entitled to enjoy human and civil rights, and they will do whatever they feel they must to preserve that way of life.

I know it is hard for those who have not lived for some time in the south, to realize that the discrimination and unjustice still continues and is sanctioned by those in authority, but it is real. It is really no more than the victim striking back against the school yard bully.







Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 05, 2007, 10:13:27 AM
Josh,

I agree, that based on the reported information, perhaps the stomping was not justified, but I have seen far too many of these provocations, and, as a results, am admittedly taking the side of the black boy not the position of the judge in the case. I am arguing for the defense of the accused. Yes, it did escalate to the fact that it was attempted murder. And, yes the black boy should be punished for it, albeit in the proper court. It was not an adult act, it was a school yard act, and it was provoked. He should be tried as a juvenile, since it was a juvenile response to the incident, not an adult response.

I haven't even touched that aspect of the case. Juveniles should be tried in juvenile court, unless a hearing has determined otherwise (and possibly even then, but I have too little data.) From the news report, it is pretty easy to conclude that the public defender provided little or no defense. (This does not make it true, but the spin of the article is clear, at least.)

You say, of the stomping, "It was not an adult act, it was a school yard act," suggesting that it should be a mitigating circumstance in judging those who engaged in this act. How, then, are you only prepared to go so far as "perhaps the stomping was not justified" where those who provoked the attack are concerned?

The person who nearly died was tried, convicted, and nearly executed, without benefit of a trial, a judge, or a jury - for "a school yard act."

This case points out the need of the adults in schools and communities to take responsibility for the racially motivated beginning acts as they occur. To fail to do so is to court exactly the type of violence that occured.

Needless to say, I served my year out there, and left. If we do not want children to take such issues into their own hands and respond it childish ways, we have to, as adults, take the bull by the horns and deliver true justice.

How is your leaving going to 'take the bull by the horns and deliver true justice?' Understand, I am not arguing that you should have stayed or should not have, merely that I do not see how your actions and your statements fit together. I was not there, but I know that physical threats are not likely to make me want to stay somewhere (though they do tend to make me more stubborn).

As an people, we responded to the oppression of the British monarcy with violence. Enough was enough. So, too it is with the children who are oppressed by the now illegal behavior or those who would continue the Jim Crow traditions. If laws are insufficient to curb this travesty, then our youth have the responsibility to act to bring it to a halt.

Your analogy is more than a little stretched, as I read it, and your history slightly distorted. The British sent troops to enforce the taxes. The revolutionaries responded to force with force. You are advocating warfare in the face of intimidating language and gestures.

I know it is hard for those who have not lived for some time in the south, to realize that the discrimination and unjustice still continues and is sanctioned by those in authority, but it is real. It is really no more than the victim striking back against the school yard bully.

Thank you for that patronizing explanation.

I am fully aware of the ongoing discrimination and injustice throughout many parts of this country and world against many people, blacks among them. I work actively against it and I teach about it.

It is far more than a victim's striking back against the school yard bully. That expression trivializes a near-murder, and it trivializes what you are advocating - vigilantism. I agree that the discrimination has to be combated. I think your recommended approach will encourage it, not discourage it, as surely as our approach in Iraq has.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 05, 2007, 10:19:14 AM

 A case in point is Jake's argument elsewhere, about the "towelheads." He believes that we need to kill all of the "towelhead murderers" before our country can be safe. Oddly enough, they believe that they need to kill all of us so that they will be safe.

Both sides are wrong, and both sides are given ammunition by their counterparts.



You have equated American innocents with the "towelhead killers"

Nicely done.

OY


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 05, 2007, 10:37:23 AM

You have equated American innocents with the "towelhead killers"


Innocents?

Which ones? The ones who were stomping or the ones who were emulating the KKK?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 05, 2007, 01:40:38 PM
Josh,

I did not intend to be patronizing, but, for myself, there was quite a difference between seeing people hosed down the street on tv and to see the actual acts in person. Perhaps they are sufficiently vivid to you without personally being involved.

Let's agree to disagree on the case, and see how it comes out. I sincerely hope that the young man will be given time served and allowed to return to family and school.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 05, 2007, 06:34:46 PM
Josh,

I did not intend to be patronizing, but, for myself, there was quite a difference between seeing people hosed down the street on tv and to see the actual acts in person. Perhaps they are sufficiently vivid to you without personally being involved.

Let's agree to disagree on the case, and see how it comes out. I sincerely hope that the young man will be given time served and allowed to return to family and school.

Nice deterrent


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 05, 2007, 06:35:38 PM

You have equated American innocents with the "towelhead killers"


Innocents?

Which ones? The ones who were stomping or the ones who were emulating the KKK?

The ones killed by the "towelheads".  Innocents killed on 9/11


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 05, 2007, 07:30:51 PM

You have equated American innocents with the "towelhead killers"


Innocents?

Which ones? The ones who were stomping or the ones who were emulating the KKK?


The ones killed by the "towelheads".  Innocents killed on 9/11

The number of innocents killed in Iraq is so much higher than the number of innocents killed on 9/11 that it isn't funny. But since I wasn't talking about them at all, then no, I did not make any such equation.

We went in to Iraq, but Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I compared our going in there guns blazing with the people stomping. I compare, therefore, the person being stomped with Iraq.

9/11? Not part of the equation. Note that I did not compare anybody in this scenario to Afghanistan.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 05, 2007, 08:47:24 PM
Don't change the subject



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 05, 2007, 08:50:03 PM
Folks,

The summer additions to Educational Synthesis are announced in the new, first, monthly newsletter for the project.

http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/newsletter/2007/September07.html

If you are, or know, teachers who would benefit from this content, please pass on the information.

I am currently updating the printables, especially the math printables, and hope to have that section of the website updated before the next newsletter the beginning of October.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 05, 2007, 08:56:25 PM
"........they believe they need to kill all of US so that THEY will be safe"

All of us = innocents

Towelhead killers?  Not so much.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 05, 2007, 09:05:16 PM
"........they believe they need to kill all of US so that THEY will be safe"

All of us = innocents

Towelhead killers?  Not so much.

I think you missed an implication - his was that all of 'them' were towel head murderers.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 15, 2007, 08:23:16 AM
Josh,

You recently shared on another forum, that you are compiling a list of sources for online reading materials, in particular books and short stories. Would you consider sharing your list?

I would like to include the list on my website for literature. At present, the website is heavily oriented to elementary students, but I would like to expand it to include high school. I can't think of a better resource for teachers than to find good literature online to be printed or read online by students, especially those in school that cannot or will not provide the materials needed.

I will be most happy to include a note that you are the source of the compilation of links on the website. I can either use you handle and this forum as your identification, or any other that you choose. You will save me a lot of research time, if you would share what you have compiled over time.

Thanks, if you are willing to share.


Title: Yes, I created The Everything Bagel
Post by: learn. on September 17, 2007, 08:12:08 PM
 

By David Gussin

It's true, it's true.
I created The Everything Bagel. 


OK, now that I'm the publisher of *****.com, Long Island's fastest growing website,  I have to give our readers   tidbits of information they can't get anywhere else.  Plus it’s the one story my daughter’s friends always found interesting. So I’ll go with it. 

 The Everything Bagel was created at a long ago out of business Queens, NY bagel shop, Charlie’s Bagels.  Whether you consider The Everything Bagel   created on Long Island depends on your definition of Long Island. Up until recently, for me at least, it was a no brainer. Long Island’s Long Island, Brooklyn and Queens are Brooklyn and Queens. Long Island is made up of Nassau and Suffolk counties. Brooklyn and Queens are part of NYC, the five boroughs. Not so fast, with my new publishing responsibilities, I find   though separated politically; Brooklyn and Queens are part of Long Island geographically. So all us folks who thought we moved to Long Island from Brooklyn and Queens, we were already living on Long Island and just didn't know it. 

Back to our story, it was the late 1970’s; I was working at a bagel store in Queens N.Y.  The owner of the store was Charlie, a big man with big hands from rolling all those bagels.  At that time, you had your standard bagels - plain, poppy, sesame, onion, garlic, salt, pumpernickel, the exotic bagel of the time was cinnamon-raisin.   Anyway, at the end of the day one of my jobs was sweeping out the oven. I'd sweep out the roasted seeds that had fallen off the bagels over the course of the day. Those were my favorites, the well done ones. One day, instead of sweeping them up and throwing them out like I had always done, I saved them. I asked Charlie to make some bagels with 'these' (the concoction of burnt leftover seeds) ... we'll call it, The Everything Bagel.  It was an immediate hit. Charlie even started charging a nickel more for it. Before you knew it, the Everything Bagel was everywhere.


My daughter’s are a smidgen mad at me. They say I should have patented it. I know, I know, if I had a penny for every Everything Bagel sold, I’d be rolling in the dough.  Yuck, yuck, yuck. It certainly would have made college tuition easier to pay for. :)


Title: Prayers for JENA, LA. today
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 19, 2007, 10:14:28 AM
May cooler heads prevail.

And congrats to the 1000 or so New Yorkers who felt the need to bus down there for the rally, including the GENIUS who says, "that could be MY kid". 

Nice.  Could be your kid stompin a white kid.  Real nice visual you create.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: madupont on September 19, 2007, 04:35:54 PM
Why do I get the feeling kid that you are telling one half a story in too few words. Here I thought maybe the hurricane was back.  As far as the incident, the very fact that I saw nothing in the media until about two days ago says much about race-relations in this country.  They have apparently entirely deteriorated under a born to be racist regime known as the Bush administration


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 19, 2007, 05:04:48 PM
Kid,

The kids who did the stomping were provoked, apparently, beyond their ability to contain themselves. They are, as the court admitted finally, still kids. And, yes, the New Yorkers could have been thinking it was their child provoked enought to strike back, to fight back, and have justice cave in on them.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 19, 2007, 05:24:13 PM
Kid,

Just on the news. A busload of Richmonders are headed for Jena today! It's so encouraging to see so much support for those who strike a blow against racism.


Title: Latest from Jena
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 20, 2007, 10:55:54 AM
U S attorney says noose incident and beating "unrelated.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/20/jena.six/index.html


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 20, 2007, 06:40:05 PM
Kid,

Here are the remarks by the US Attorney, Washington:

"Although Washington acknowledged the FBI and other investigators thought the noose incident bore the markings of a hate crime, a decision was made not to press federal charges because the case didn't meet federal criteria. The students were under 18 and had no prior records, and no group such as a Ku Klux Klan was found to be behind their actions."

Perhaps there is another article in which he said the two incidents were "unrelated" and you posted the wrong one. The article you posted makes it clear that the punishment meted out to the black students is excessive compared to the punishment given to the white students.

If one of the boys was sitting on the rail nearby and threw no punches, I don't understand how he could have been convicted of "battery". He may have been part of the "conspiracy", but the court, whether jury or judge, made a serious mistake in justice on the Jones child.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 20, 2007, 11:08:33 PM
Perhaps there is another article in which he said the two incidents were "unrelated" and you posted the wrong one.

On the page he linked, under Don't Miss, it says " U.S. attorney: Nooses, beating at Jena High not related" with  link to that related article, http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/19/jena.six.link/index.html


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 20, 2007, 11:40:03 PM
Josh,

Thanks for eyeballing that for me. Glaucoma is limiting my field of vision, and I tend to miss what is on the edges of the screen unless I deliberately look for it. I wasn't looking for another link.

Following a suggestion, I have put google analytics on my website to see what kind of traffic I am drawing. I've been watching the stats for three days now --- and WOW. Over 5,000 visiters to Famous Americans in that time, over 1,000 that registers as "visits" rather than "pageviews". Average time on a page is about 2.5 min, which is enough to read the content and perhaps check out some of the links. In the same time, the My Own Books have had almost 400 pageviews, and 142 visits long enough to download the book. The rest of the content on language arts, math, science and social studies in general, seem not to draw as much traffic. But the two areas I have put the most blood sweat and tears into seem to be well received.

It's heartening to know that so many elementary schools are using the technology as we hoped they would back when I got started online in the late eighties. When I took my online teaching courses online from CalState, almost all of my classmates did not believe elementary schools would ever use the Internet for learning. Yet, here they are, some four years later, racheting up my numbers! What is most exciting is that people in countries that do not speak English are using my webpages. There was even a visit from someone in Iran in the past few days, and another from United Arab Emirates. Europe, Asia and North America are accessing my site. But only Bolivia from South America, and no countries in Africa have been there. Yet, there is a publisher in South Africa who wants to publish my books on paper for their children. It's rather telling which areas of the world as most behind in technology.

Well, let me let this hot air out of my head, pick up the history book I'm reading, and head for the bed.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on September 21, 2007, 03:57:27 PM
Josh,

Thanks for eyeballing that for me. Glaucoma is limiting my field of vision, and I tend to miss what is on the edges of the screen unless I deliberately look for it. I wasn't looking for another link.

Following a suggestion, I have put google analytics on my website to see what kind of traffic I am drawing. I've been watching the stats for three days now --- and WOW. Over 5,000 visiters to Famous Americans in that time, over 1,000 that registers as "visits" rather than "pageviews". Average time on a page is about 2.5 min, which is enough to read the content and perhaps check out some of the links. In the same time, the My Own Books have had almost 400 pageviews, and 142 visits long enough to download the book. The rest of the content on language arts, math, science and social studies in general, seem not to draw as much traffic. But the two areas I have put the most blood sweat and tears into seem to be well received.

It's heartening to know that so many elementary schools are using the technology as we hoped they would back when I got started online in the late eighties. When I took my online teaching courses online from CalState, almost all of my classmates did not believe elementary schools would ever use the Internet for learning. Yet, here they are, some four years later, racheting up my numbers! What is most exciting is that people in countries that do not speak English are using my webpages. There was even a visit from someone in Iran in the past few days, and another from United Arab Emirates. Europe, Asia and North America are accessing my site. But only Bolivia from South America, and no countries in Africa have been there. Yet, there is a publisher in South Africa who wants to publish my books on paper for their children. It's rather telling which areas of the world as most behind in technology.

Well, let me let this hot air out of my head, pick up the history book I'm reading, and head for the bed.





So, weezlette, looking beyond this shameless self-promotion of yours, and given your limited vision, when you and Al Gore were busy inventing the internets, did you ever dream it would become so pervasive and yet still so inaccessible for so many children living in America today????


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 21, 2007, 05:45:09 PM
Utley,

I will admit to shameless self-promotion (especially if I had included the link to the website), but, basically, I am truly proud of the efforts of the past twenty years. To complete my shamelessness, the link to my site is: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org ... and all the parts enumerated in my post are on there.

I know I've said this before, and perhaps to you, but I had poor rural black & white special ed students on the Internet before the web was invented. And, I did see Al Gore at a VEA conference in Albequerque in '95, where he was the keynote speaker and I was a lowly presenter of one of the sessions. And, those students who developed basic reading and writing skills using the Internet are now in their mid-thirties and were able to get good jobs and move up in the world because they had computer skills before most of the rest of their peers.

And, yes, in many parts of the country, students only have access to the Internet at the local library instead of at school, but here in Virginia, where Virginia's PEN shone it's light, all schools have computers and the Internet, and I have personally helped train some of the teachers who spread the good words. Computers and Technology have been so much a part of the education program in Virginia, that we've had specific learning objectives in this area since 2000. They were updated in 2005.

Now, instead of grumbling about the fact that some have it, why don't you do something useful for education, and we'll applaud you for it when you tell us about it. Education and educators need encouragement, not deprication.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on September 21, 2007, 11:24:56 PM


I know I've said this before, and perhaps to you, but I had poor rural black & white special ed students on the Internet before the web was invented.


So YOU'RE responsible for Sharpton.

Thanks a lot.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 21, 2007, 11:47:08 PM
Kid,

Funny! I had mostly learning disabled students - and -  from what I've seen of Sharpton, he couldn't have gotten where he is if he'd had a problem with reading and writing. But, I'm sure some of my students would be tickled that you compared them to him!




Title: Re: Education
Post by: elportenito1 on September 25, 2007, 09:35:54 AM
We all should be re-educated.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 25, 2007, 10:30:08 AM
Port,

Last night I was setting up a webpage with the Virginia learning objectives, and took a gander at the upper end of the math scale, and was amazed at what I don't know. Since high school math has included graphing calculators the scope of what is covered has sailed well beyond my knowledge, and I was said to be "good at math" in high school forty years ago. How times change!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 25, 2007, 08:29:49 PM
Port,

Last night I was setting up a webpage with the Virginia learning objectives, and took a gander at the upper end of the math scale, and was amazed at what I don't know. Since high school math has included graphing calculators the scope of what is covered has sailed well beyond my knowledge, and I was said to be "good at math" in high school forty years ago. How times change!

I don't find the same difference in my math education from high school 30+ years ago.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 25, 2007, 11:12:51 PM
Josh,

Here is the link to the objectives: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/objectives/SOLs/ ... The pages are functional, but I haven't cleaned them up or fancied them up yet. The third table down the opening page is the math objectives, and the ones that blow my mind are: Discrete Math, Algebra Function and Data Analysis, and of course, Calculus was a college math course when I was in high school. Maybe all of those after Trig, were originally college level course and that's why they blow my mind. I tried to learn to use a graphing calculator to work with a home bound student a few years ago, and it was just an inch past my easy comprehension, yet the student I was working with was very comfortable with the machine, so I just slid along. By comparison, there are no objectives in English and Social Studies that I would not be comfortable making online content, and could intelligently seek help on the upper sciences (fortunately, I do have people to use as sources of help!)

For high school I went to a very small Catholic high school, and the nun who taught all the math and science courses was a favorite, but probably not up to the level of today's math or science teachers who are specialized in their fields.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 25, 2007, 11:39:28 PM
Josh,

Here is the link to the objectives:

the ones that blow my mind are: Discrete Math, Algebra Function and Data Analysis, and of course, Calculus was a college math course when I was in high school. Maybe all of those after Trig, were originally college level course and that's why they blow my mind.

I am well familiar with the aptly named SOLs, and a variety of other states' efforts to quantify academic success in a meaningful way (while gutting education).

I think the question of what was college or high school math is very much tied to where you went to high school beyond merely when you went, though I grant that Calc is offered in more places than it probably was back in the 60's. I went to three high schools between '69 and '74. (The first place was a 7th - 12th grade school.) All three offered Calculus and the other courses. A couple of them offered a second year of high school biology.

Had I grown up without those experiences, I might be more surprised, but shortly after that I got involved with the MIT Educational Studies Program, and through them got meet students from more than 200 different high schools. One public high school offered courses in more than 30 languages!

Academically speaking, my mind is hard to blow.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 26, 2007, 12:40:52 AM
Josh,

OK, it is my own background at a very small school with only enough courses to graduate us. Perhaps if I had gone either to the public high school or the large catholic high school in town, I would have had more of a chance to stretch my legs. But, I graduated in '63 when the prevailing mood was still for girls to marry instead of getting an education, and raise a family rather than pursue a career. I didn't start college until I was in my thirties. Despite scores in the high nineties on the PSAT, I found myself in remedial math and repeating my first "real" science course before I got to the university.

Sound like you had a very different high school experience than I did.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 26, 2007, 03:28:41 AM
Despite scores in the high nineties on the PSAT, I found myself in remedial math and repeating my first "real" science course before I got to the university.

Sound like you had a very different high school experience than I did.

Yes, I suspect that our experiences were very different. My first high school had 180 students across 6 grades - the 7th and 8th grade soccer team had to borrow a 9th grader sometimes. But it was designed as a college prep school, so its courses went all the way up. The boarding school I went to next, while religious in origin and practice, had 1200 students. And the public high school from which I graduated in the bottom 30% or so had 2400.

Mind you, getting a 90 on the PSAT would be a good trick these days, too, since that scoring mechanism is long gone. One cannot get below a 20 or above an 80 on a single section.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 26, 2007, 09:12:42 AM
Josh,

My high school was so small and had so few boys, that we didn't even have a sports team. None. Once a year, our boys did a dismal exhibition basketball game, but it was a rather sick joke. I was on the debate team, and again, we did dismally in a diocese competition because our nuns had no clue what we would be judged on. We were told to wear hats and gloves, and to stand perfectly still with hands folded in front of us to deliver our speeches, and everyone else at the competition showed up sans hats and gloves, and the scoring counted heavily on using expressive gestures to deliver your words. When I see people extolling private schools over public schools, I remember my own private school experience, and stand in favor of public schools.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on September 26, 2007, 07:38:02 PM
My high school was so small and had so few boys, that we didn't even have a sports team. None. Once a year, our boys did a dismal exhibition basketball game, but it was a rather sick joke. I was on the debate team, and again, we did dismally in a diocese competition because our nuns had no clue what we would be judged on. We were told to wear hats and gloves, and to stand perfectly still with hands folded in front of us to deliver our speeches, and everyone else at the competition showed up sans hats and gloves, and the scoring counted heavily on using expressive gestures to deliver your words. When I see people extolling private schools over public schools, I remember my own private school experience, and stand in favor of public schools.

My own school (the one I was headmaster of) peaked at 14 students, so I get what you mean on a size basis.

But my reaction to the rest of your story is more about those teachers and less about private vs. public schooling. They sound as if they did not do their jobs.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on September 26, 2007, 10:12:14 PM
Josh,

We had four nuns who rotated the various subjects in the high school. One was clearly past the point of being in the classroom, and should have been sent to the mother house a few years before we ended up in her path. Two of the others were unable to deal with the fact that we were of the "lower class" although my father had a degree and worked in a suit and tie. Many of my classmates were offspring of factory workers, tradesmen, and farmers. In my last year of high school, the nuns told my parents I would never amount to anything because I was "boy-crazy". I had never even been on a date! I decided that further schooling was a waste of time, and chucked my plans for college, went out, found a man, married and had two sons before I was 21. By the time I was in my thirties, I cleaned up my mistakes and enrolled in college while raising the two boys as a single parent.

BTW, sometime back you mentioned that you were compiling a list of places that share e-books. I know about the Guttenberg Project, and the Internet Library. Can you share some of those links with me? I'd like to include them on my website, and also research some literature for various levels, and link specific books/stories.

The SOLs are received differently by different teachers. I liked them, in part, because as a special ed teacher, I did not have to adhere to them, but I could pick and choose from them in compiling IEP's so that my students were getting some of the same instruction as the regular kids. By contrast, other teachers my age who had taught well before they were developed, hate them because it constrict what they would prefer to do, and limits their ability to tailor instruction to the kids sitting in front of them. I think they are better for the elementary classes because before they were created, the elementary teachers were free to incorporate whatever social studies and science caught their eye. One of my boys ended up with several years of Black History and knew nothing about the Revolutionary War until high school history! I'd like to know what you have heard about them. You suggested that you've heard mostly negatives. Can you fill me in?




Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on October 05, 2007, 10:52:54 PM
I just spent the day making a chart of the elements with the atomic number, name of element, atomic weight, electron configuration, whether it is natural or articicial and whether or not it is radioactive.

I had planned to use the electron configuration to make some detailed Bohr's models and include them on the chart, but, in reality, it would be a tremendous amount of work just for the kids to "look at". So I am trying to figure out what use there will be for the chart.

In 5th grade, kids are to learn about atoms, and the fact that they are made up of protons, neurons and eletrons. They really don't need to know about the electon configurations yet. In 8th grade, kids are to learn about the modern models, so maybe they could fit in there. I assume they are to start with the Bohr models that include the s, p, d and f levels rather than just the solar system models. I am thinking of how I can make models the kids can work with. Perhaps put each ring with it's levels all filled, and have the kids use a hole puncher to take out the missing elements in each ring before putting it around the nucleus. That would require a lot of dexterity and concentration. I don't know if 8th graders have it yet. In high school chemistry, it may fit in, but there is so much currlciulum to cover, that taking a lot of time to make bohr models of some of the elements may be seen as too time consuming.

The chart is at http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/mrsp/science/Chemistry/ElementChart.html ... those of you with some knowledge of science in education, take a look at it and let me know what it will be good for. Perhaps I need to break it into two or three charts for the different grade levels of students, maybe adding, year of discover, and temperatures of states for the younger kids to look up.

Open to any and all suggestions.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on October 11, 2007, 10:55:40 PM
Gerald Bracey is known as a person who can disect the statistic and tell you what they really mean, or what they do not give you a clue on. In this years's annual report, he starts off with the history of school-bashing, and how often the politicians have blamed the schools when something in their balliwick goes awry, but are silent on the achievements of schools, when they pat themselves on the back.

It's a long read, but worth the time:

http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/EDDRA/k0710bra.pdf


Title: Response to Columbia University's & Other Noose Incidents Across the Nation
Post by: learn. on October 12, 2007, 05:02:53 PM
My apologies for possibly sounding like the following is preaching: This week it's the noose, almost twenty years ago it was Yusef Hawkins, a few months ago it was Imus ... instead of continuously talking about racism. Why don't we (society) start doing something about it? How can it be a bad idea spread the attitude, educate the future with an opposite to racism?
 
That feeling one gets when thinking of that noose is why if you see the LEARN symbol - symbols matter - there's a broken heart. Racism, that noose, cause the feelings of a broken-heart in our society.. It's time to start spreading an opposite to that. Love (the most searched word on Google) needs some help.
 
My credentials, not much, except this .... if you go (imagine if a child goes) to Google or Yahoo and search 'learn about ending racism', LEARN -- deservingly so, is at the top.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you want to do something about racism, start by spreading an opposite to it.

LEARN, spread the word!!!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on October 12, 2007, 05:41:19 PM
Are there an equal # of blacks that act out against whites?

We are talking about a very small portion of society.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on October 12, 2007, 05:43:49 PM
BTW - I want to hear Reverend Al speak to why Mychal Bell was on probation.

I wonder if Al even knew.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on October 12, 2007, 06:56:48 PM
Kid,

If there is something new on the Jena story that we should know about, how about providing a link so the rest of us know what you are referring to? 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: madupont on October 13, 2007, 01:36:24 AM
Weezo, how much reading have you done on the Niels Bohr model? I noticed that he was describing something wherein the application of atomic particles was quite similar to astronomy.  At the moment, I don't know how to explain it any better than that. I would say that was the analogy he was using; but, I read that work so many decades before I ended up at Princeton where the town itself now interacts with the university in a mutual program of general education so that people are informed in these matters and various energy concepts of physics.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on October 13, 2007, 06:20:29 AM
Maddie,

I'm plucking my way through this application. I understand that the Bohr's model, both the original, with just the rings numbered in the Electron Configurations and the newer model that distinguishes the levels of layers in the rings, are both hypothetical, and that electrons do not actually move within an orbit of the nucleas, but bounce in and out, I think of comets with a more erratic orbit rather than a nice round one.

I have set aside my work on those models until I get a clearer picture in my head how I can make useful content for the young'uns, and am working on a new story for My Own Books. The incomplete chart of the elements is getting some hits, so I suspect that teachers are using it as a guide for students to look up the characteristics themselves, perhaps at the high school level.

On thing about maintaining a website that covers all subject K-12, is that I have to keep moving from subject to subject, doing some work here for a few days, then moving on to something else. I actually have a number of projects going at any one time, and this one on the atomic models is just one. I cannot read as widely on an area as I would like, and must depend heavily on online sources. The Jefferson Lab is an excellent source, and, thanks to Barton, I now have a clearer picture of where the quarks fit in the scheme of things.

If there is anything coming out of Princeton that can help me understand and provide explanation for the kids, please let me know of the links, or the titles of readable books. Jefferson Lab, on the other hand, is right up the road a few hours from me, and if I need to, I could open a communication channel there, although they seems to be doing a great job of creating the K-12 materials on the web by themselves. It is possible that they already have some grad student hard at work providing Bohr's models for all the elements, and I just have to be patient until the work is complete.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on October 15, 2007, 01:37:59 PM
Kid,

If there is something new on the Jena story that we should know about, how about providing a link so the rest of us know what you are referring to? 

Bell back in custody:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/10/11/bell.jail/index.html?iref=newssearch

http://www.examiner.com/a-986024~Mychal_Bell_of_the__Jena_6__Back_in_Jail.html

........and then the continued USING of this teen:

http://interestalert.com/story/10150002aaa04feb.nb/siteia/FRONTPAG/front_page.html


Title: And of course BOTH sides have their yahoos
Post by: kidcarter8 on October 15, 2007, 02:17:37 PM
Agree with J Jackson - these families need protecting:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/23/fbi.jena.ap/index.html


Title: Re: Education
Post by: madupont on October 16, 2007, 01:24:46 PM

Maddie,

I'm plucking my way through this application. I understand that the Bohr's model, both the original, with just the rings numbered in the Electron Configurations and the newer model that distinguishes the levels of layers in the rings, are both hypothetical, and that electrons do not actually move within an orbit of the nucleas, but bounce in and out, I think of comets with a more erratic orbit rather than a nice round one.

I have set aside my work on those models until I get a clearer picture in my head how I can make useful content for the young'uns, and am working on a new story for My Own Books. The incomplete chart of the elements is getting some hits, so I suspect that teachers are using it as a guide for students to look up the characteristics themselves, perhaps at the high school level.

On thing about maintaining a website that covers all subject K-12, is that I have to keep moving from subject to subject, doing some work here for a few days, then moving on to something else. I actually have a number of projects going at any one time, and this one on the atomic models is just one. I cannot read as widely on an area as I would like, and must depend heavily on online sources. The Jefferson Lab is an excellent source, and, thanks to Barton, I now have a clearer picture of where the quarks fit in the scheme of things.

If there is anything coming out of Princeton that can help me understand and provide explanation for the kids, please let me know of the links, or the titles of readable books. Jefferson Lab, on the other hand, is right up the road a few hours from me, and if I need to, I could open a communication channel there, although they seems to be doing a great job of creating the K-12 materials on the web by themselves. It is possible that they already have some grad student hard at work providing Bohr's models for all the elements, and I just have to be patient until the work is complete.


Haven't forgotten, start with this:

http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=138000

I had an entirely different connection this morning and just lost it in attempt to post; trying to retrack it. NASA as a web-site has a search, or education heading listed at the bottom of the page which should provide you with Bohr's analogies. By that I mean that the first diagrams which I ever saw when I picked up a text on Niels Bohr, were instantly recognizable to me because the
particles apply in the same way that the motion of planets apply to each other(or as some would say, modifying the influence) so your first paragraph above is essentially correct.

But it has been years since I saw those diagrams and I have no recall of the title of the book.  However, in terms of energy, "comets" would seem to infer a longer periodicity; but, you might contact Haverford College, in Haverford,Pa. where they have an observatory, and ask if they have any diagrams for planetary motion available. Although, I suspect there has got to be something on-line which will demonstrate exactly what the orbits and periodicity of plantets looks like. Then, it clicks.  I have no idea why, but Laurie recently  posted some work on spectoscopy while discussing Fiction.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on October 16, 2007, 04:31:09 PM
Maddie,

The reason I use the comet as an example, is because in the explanation of the Bohr's models on the Jefferson Lab site, they said that although the model shows the electrons in circular orbits around the nucleus, in real life the electrons are not in orbits at all but bounce in and out against the nucleus, and may nor may not have regular orbits. So far, electrons cannot be seen, nor quarks, so it is only mathematical models that yield how they act.

It has long been supposed the electrons model the orbit actions of the solar system, but in fact, planets and moons are not "charged" so the behavior may not be, in real life, anything like it.

I wonder, as I sit here thinking, if toothpicks connecting gumdrops to the nucleus of styrofoam or something else that will hold toothpicks, would be a better model, than the circles around the nucleus. The toothpicks and gumdrops used to be used to demonstrate molecules until someone invented those ridiculously expesive plastic models that can only be purchased by schools with lots of funding.

Charlottesville aslo has an observatory. I'm sure I could find a telephone number if I get really serious about trying to keep the idea that electrons act like heavenly bodies. But, what I had read so far suggests it is an imperfect comparison, and there is soon to be a better model of the atoms.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: madupont on October 16, 2007, 07:21:24 PM
weezo,

Although orbits only appear to be round in one plane, and planets and moons "are not charged", you are in any case dealing with particle physics.
 
OED
2 A minute portion of matter,the smallest perceptible part of an aggregation or mass; MATH. a hypothetical thing having mass concentrated at a point but no physical size;PHYSICS any of numerous subatomic constituents of the physical world that interact with each other and include electrons,neutrinos,photon, and alpha particles; formerly,an atom, a molecule.
 
Think of this in terms of the energy-transference.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: Kam on October 16, 2007, 08:27:42 PM
Did i miss the discussion on SB 777?
Quote
SB 777 prohibits any “instruction” or school-sponsored “activity” that “promotes a discriminatory bias” against “gender” (the bill’s definition includes cross-dressing and sex changes) and “sexual orientation” (the bill’s definition includes bisexuality). Because no textbook or instruction in California public schools currently disparages transsexuality, bisexuality, or homosexuality, the practical effect of SB 777 will be to require positive portrayals of these sexual lifestyles at every government-operated school. Otherwise, “discriminatory” schools will be subject to intimidation and lawsuits by the State Department of Education.

Under SB 777, which will go into effect on January 1, 2008, the following could be eliminated from California public schools because they are deemed to have a “discriminatory bias”:

• Textbooks and other instruction that portray marriage as only between a man and a woman
• Textbooks and other instruction that say people are born male or female (and not in between)
• Textbooks and other instruction that leave out transsexual, bisexual, and homosexual historical figures
• Sex education and school assemblies that omit the option of hormone injections or sex changes
• Homecoming king and queen contests that allow only boys to run for king and only girls to run for queen
• Boys’ and girls’ bathrooms that separate biological boys from biological girls

Or should this be posted under Gay Rights?  Curious what people thought...


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on October 16, 2007, 09:56:34 PM
Kam,

Curious what people thought...

I think this is appropriate for this forum, and I agree with the proposals 100%.

The students at a school I once taught at selected a yellow Lab companion dog as homecoming king, so what's the big deal?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on October 16, 2007, 10:02:24 PM
Kam,

It benefits no students to have the teacher or instruction, show a bias towards a lifestyle that is what the child lives with. Kids can't learn if they are being made fun of, or if their family is the butt of cruel jokes and offhand comments. Respect for all! 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: madupont on October 27, 2007, 05:27:38 PM
weezo,

didn't know quite where to post this considering campaign forum but here it is for Virginia:

We picked up 12 seats in the legislature. It just shows what a good gerrymander can do.

-- U.S. Congressman Tom Davis (R-VA), quoted in an 11/07/01 CNSN article on the 2001 Virginia state elections



Change the Map of Virginia, Change the Map of the country.

The Right's political ascendancy over the last 30 years, from school boards to the White House, was due in large part to its strategists' long-term thinking. We must not fail to learn from this. We can have a more progressive country, but we need to think ahead to crucial, landmark events -- like redistricting.

Virginia's state elections are right around the corner. Because the state legislators who are elected in the "class of '07" will have a say in the state's redistricting process following the 2010 census, by impacting key races you can help determine how progressive the United States Congress will be.

http://www.actblue.com/page/mapchangers

State legislators elected this year could determine the makeup of Virginia's congressional delegation for the following decade -- it's all about who draws the maps.

Virginia Republicans have a troubling history of gerrymandering, and right now Republicans control both chambers of the Virginia legislature. If nothing changes, they'll control the next round of redistricting.

You have the chance to really effect change this year by supporting the challengers in four key Virginia state Senate races. If all four of the Republican incumbents are defeated, party-control of the state Senate changes!

Go to our connected 527 organization People For the American Way Action Fund's "Map Changers" ActBlue page now, and support one or more of the Democratic candidates in these crucial races with a much-needed donation in this final week before Election Day.

http://www.actblue.com/page/mapchangers

A little about the races:

In District 6, Dr. Ralph Northam -- a candidate with strong progressive credentials -- is running against right-wing incumbent Senator Nick Rerras, who has reportedly attributed mental illness to demonic possession.
In District 34 -- a district that voted for the Democratic candidate in the last two gubernatorial elections and Jim Webb for U.S. Senate -- Democrat Chap Peterson is taking on anti-choice, Republican incumbent Jeannemarie Devolites Davis.
In District 37, Fairfax County School Board Member -- and solid progressive -- Janet Oleszek is trying to unseat Sen. Ken Cuccinelli, a rabid right-winger.
In District 39, progressive George Barker is working to advance his vision of political change for Virginia by unseating Republican Senator Jay O'Brien.
Opportunity is knocking -- answer the door! The Virginia election on November 6 is a great chance to undo the Republican gerrymandering from 2001 and make sure they don't get away with it again in 2011.

Gerrymandering is a term that describes the deliberate drawing of congressional districts, during redistricting, to influence the outcome of elections. Too often, it is used to dilute minority voting strength and ensure the long-term domination of one party or another in a certain district or in a state's congressional delegation.

In 2006, the GOP looked at the "good gerrymanders" in Virginia and other states as a firewall against the loss of power. The firewall was not strong enough to hold back Democratic and progressive gains that year, but now they hope to refortify that wall with state legislative wins, starting in 2007.

Change the Map of Virginia, Change the Map of the country.

Control of the Virginia Senate hinges on four races. You can make the difference by supporting one or more of the Democratic challengers in these races. Will you?

Change the Map at http://www.actblue.com/page/mapchangers, and ask your friends to do the same.

-- Your Allies at People For the American Way

P.S. On the ActBlue page, you can also make a general contribution to People For the American Way Action Fund to support its important work through the 2008 elections.

http://www.actblue.com/page/mapchangers  ChDr,ange the MaTurn the : Turn the VA Senate






Title: Re: Education
Post by: incadove0 on November 05, 2007, 01:44:01 PM
Yawn.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: learn. on November 13, 2007, 10:37:11 PM
Hello all ... it's been a while since I've been on the site .... I figure the education forum is always a good stop.

My educational message stays constant. I'm not the brightest guy in the world, but even I know this: If you want to do something about racism, inspire/educate the future with an opposite to it.

LEARN - Let's End All Racism Now - spread  the word!!!
http://www.FundingForce.com
http://www.LEARNspreadtheword.com


Title: Re: Education
Post by: madupont on December 01, 2007, 03:16:25 PM
WEEZO!


http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?storyID=9580
 
http://www.laptopgiving.org/en/index.php



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on December 01, 2007, 05:30:23 PM
Maddie,

I heard about these laptops about a year ago, and they were supposed to sell for $100 and they were soliciting donations to send them to third world countries. Now they are $200 and sold in a scheme. As I said back when I first heard about them, school children, even in third world countries, do not need toy computers, they need real computers that can run standard software. I'm not sure what WiFi adds to a computer, so I don't know if that is a benefit.

The internet has come a long way in the past twenty years towards providing resources and content for education, but it is still a long way away from the total support that is needed in third world countries. Educational software is usually written for Windows or for MAC and cannot run on these toys until someone write a similar program for linux. Children need to learn to use the software used by their future employers, which is currently office, not some knockoff that runs on linux.

As I learned from my own experiences, children as early as Kindergarten can learn to enter data in a spreadsheet program. My little ones used Excel, could enter data in the right cells. The first graders could do more, and the second graders more than that. All the kids could use Paint, Word, and photo-editing software. The second graders could do a project in Powerpoint.

Not giving children in third world countries the opportunity to work on real computers would, in the long run, be a costly mistake. You can now buy a real laptop for $500, and a real computer for around $400. In no time at all, a real computer can be purchased for the money spend on these toys.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 09, 2008, 10:30:08 PM
Literature Suggestion:

Chatted with sister Pat this evening. As she told me of some of the stuff she's doing in her lit classes, we talked about the Asimov story "The Fun They Had" and asking students, after reading it, to comment on what is already different from the schools of the future that Asimov saw in the 1950's. She sees it as a good introductory story to a larger book/novel, a reading perhaps in science fiction. Neither of us could think of a classic monumental work of science fiction that was written by an American (it is an American lit class she wants to use it in.

Laurie, Maddie, Anyone with suggestions for book length works of science fiction that are worth reading in a lit class.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on January 09, 2008, 10:39:08 PM
Anne,

Laurie, Maddie, Anyone with suggestions for book length works of science fiction that are worth reading in a lit class.

You might want to look at Heinlein's Destination Moon.

It was written in 1949, and it had the Apollo mission foreshadowed perfectly.

Plus which, Heinlein can tell a crackling good story.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on January 09, 2008, 11:32:16 PM
Literature Suggestion:

Chatted with sister Pat this evening. As she told me of some of the stuff she's doing in her lit classes, we talked about the Asimov story "The Fun They Had" and asking students, after reading it, to comment on what is already different from the schools of the future that Asimov saw in the 1950's. She sees it as a good introductory story to a larger book/novel, a reading perhaps in science fiction. Neither of us could think of a classic monumental work of science fiction that was written by an American (it is an American lit class she wants to use it in.

Laurie, Maddie, Anyone with suggestions for book length works of science fiction that are worth reading in a lit class.

What level lit class? By lit, are you looking for great writing or 'merely' great story telling? Is there a theme of any sort to the class or does the instructor ever coordinate with teachers in either history or science?

I teach a series of Speculative Literature courses to motivated 7th - 12th graders at MIT, depending on the year, so I am a bit opinionated on this (unlike most areas, where I have no thoughts of my own, of course).


Title: Re: Education
Post by: Lhoffman on January 10, 2008, 01:04:02 AM
Wish I could offer suggestions, Anne, but the only sci-fi I've really read is Phillip K. Dick.  Some of those might be appropriate, depending on the grade level.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on January 10, 2008, 05:17:57 AM
Wish I could offer suggestions, Anne, but the only sci-fi I've really read is Phillip K. Dick.  Some of those might be appropriate, depending on the grade level.

With at least 8 Dick stories or novels already turned into movies, he is certainly topical at this point.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 10, 2008, 07:04:00 AM
Thanks Josh and Laurie,

We were thinking of Pat's 10th grade literature class. She is looking for a classic that would fit the American Lit theme, and be an introduction to the sci-fi or fantasy genre. The notion for The Fun The Had is to compare how the future was expected to be in the 1950's with how the future turned out so far. In the story The Fun They Had, school is by this time, no longer a public affair. Kids learn from computers in their homes and do not collect into classes. They also do not read paper books. In Asimov's story, the kids use computers that are fed punched cards rather than receive input from the keyboard.

Josh, for your background, my sister Pat teaches in a Catholic HS in a suburb of Detroit. She has to follow the Michigan curriculum, which includes studying 8 books a year, and Pat would prefer to use classics over a "good story". Pat says this year's class is not the highest functioning class she's ever had - they were bored with Huck Finn, but really got into Stephen King. I'm no fan of Stephen King, but Pat is.

Back when I taught HS Lit, 10th grade was a smorgasbord of the various forms of literature, and the short story was a goal in itself, but she is teaching American Lit to 10th grade and wants to use the story as a lead in to "something good".



Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on January 10, 2008, 10:16:54 AM
Audit spurs resignation of founding principal of charter school on the campus of UC-San Diego.
By Scott J. Cech
Premium article access courtesy of Edweek.org.

A San Diego charter school with a national reputation for success in preparing disadvantaged students for college has been hit by charges that school officials improperly changed student grades.

The founding principal of the Preuss School, an 8-year-old school affiliated with the University of California, San Diego, has resigned after an audit finding that she probably directed or knew about more than 400 inappropriate grade changes over six years.

More than three-quarters of transcripts reviewed by auditors contained one or more inaccurately recorded grades, a majority of which caused student records to look better than they really were.

The former principal, Doris Alvarez, strongly denies involvement in the grade changing. She also has questioned the competence of the auditors, who work for UC-San Diego, but said she would step down in the interest of the school and its roughly 750 students.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on January 10, 2008, 10:53:57 AM
We were thinking of Pat's 10th grade literature class. She is looking for a classic that would fit the American Lit theme, and be an introduction to the sci-fi or fantasy genre. The notion for The Fun The Had is to compare how the future was expected to be in the 1950's with how the future turned out so far. In the story The Fun They Had, school is by this time, no longer a public affair. Kids learn from computers in their homes and do not collect into classes. They also do not read paper books. In Asimov's story, the kids use computers that are fed punched cards rather than receive input from the keyboard.

Josh, for your background, my sister Pat teaches in a Catholic HS in a suburb of Detroit. She has to follow the Michigan curriculum, which includes studying 8 books a year, and Pat would prefer to use classics over a "good story". Pat says this year's class is not the highest functioning class she's ever had - they were bored with Huck Finn, but really got into Stephen King. I'm no fan of Stephen King, but Pat is.

Back when I taught HS Lit, 10th grade was a smorgasbord of the various forms of literature, and the short story was a goal in itself, but she is teaching American Lit to 10th grade and wants to use the story as a lead in to "something good".

Ok. She has a bias which is unfortunate, but... Given that she is at a Catholic HS, books she might want to consider include:
A Case of Conscience, James Blish
Quote
It is the story of a Jesuit who investigates an alien race that has no religion; they are completely without any concept of God, an afterlife, or the idea of sin; and the species evolves through several forms through the course of its life cycle. The story was originally published as a novella in 1953, and later extended to novel-length, of which the first part is the original novella. The novel is the first part of Blish's thematic "After Such Knowledge" trilogy, followed by Black Easter/The Day After Judgment and Dr Mirabilis.

A Canticle for Liebowitz, Walter Miller, Jr.
Quote
Set in a Roman Catholic monastery in the desert of the Southwestern United States after a devastating nuclear war, the story spans thousands of years as civilization rebuilds itself. The monks of the Albertian Order of Leibowitz take up the mission of preserving the surviving remnants of man's scientific knowledge against the day the outside world is again ready for it.

Inspired by the author's participation in the Allied bombing of the monastery at Monte Cassino during World War II, the novel is considered by literary critics a "masterpiece". It has been compared favorably with the works of Evelyn Waugh, Graham Greene, and Walker Percy, and its themes of religion, recurrence, and church versus state have generated a significant body of scholarly research.

A Wrinkle in Time, Madeleine L'Engle - This is an award winning YA or Children's Novel, dealing very clearly with the notion of good vs. evil. She probably has read it herself, in spite of her aversion to the field.

Lord of Light, Roger Zelazny - an interesting take on the Hindi religion
Quote
"His followers called him Mahasamatman and said he was a god. He preferred to drop the Maha- and the -atman, however, and called himself Sam. He never claimed to be a god, but then he never claimed not to be a god."

To Your Scattered Bodies Go, Philip Jose Farmer - Is this the afterlife? How can it be? -- This one may contain too much sexual content, though that is hardly its goal.
Quote
The title is derived from the 7th of the "Holy Sonnets" by English poet John Donne:

    At the round earth's imagin'd corners, blow
    Your trumpets, angels, and arise, arise
    From death, you numberless infinities
    Of souls, and to your scattered bodies go.

The novel is set on a world terraformed into one large river, where every person who ever lived is resurrected. The book follows the adventures of Sir Richard Burton, Alice Pleasance Liddell Hargreaves, and others through several years as they try to survive, including being attacked by Hermann Göring. The story also revolves around the recruitment of Burton by a mysterious stranger who is attempting to subvert the purpose of the Riverworld.

This is barely skimming the surface. There are ever so many more wonderful places to start - and one can, instead, simply ignore religion altogether. Another path to take is through short stories. And yet another is looking at the science fiction of people better known for other works - like Jack London's science fiction or Edgar Rice Burroughs or Arthur Conan Doyle's.

If they have read Frankenstein, for example, there is Michael Bishop's Brittle Innings.

Or... because the movie is just in and out of the theaters, John Gardner's Grendel, which tells the story of Beowulf from the beast's perspective!

Don't get me started...


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 10, 2008, 10:05:50 PM
Josh,

I have no idea what "bias" you detected. I outlined what she is thinking of doing on a unit this year, since Michigan is changing the order of the English courses. So she wants to do something in American Lit. Beowulf, is in British Lit, and the story comes through better in a movie than in reading.

What we were thinking about were "classics", such as Something Wicked This Way Comes, The Martian Chronicles by Ray Bradbury and The Day The Earth Stood Still and War of the Worlds by H. G. Wells. It is a literature class, not a religion class.

I am wondering now if the best idea would not be to pick a "classic" so much as a recent acclaimed book in the science fiction genre, something to compare what is anticipate in the future with what actually happens, and to let the students speculate whether the worlds described are likely to come about that way and how they may be different.

For example, in the Asimov story, the "school of the future" is indeed based on the development of the computer, but the computer is not repaired by a man in workpants, nor are punched cards necessary. And, as yet, the computer has not replaced the book as the source of information, but the Internet, which is accessed via a computer, could be seen as replacing a lot of books.

So, let me get you started thinking up more titles.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on January 11, 2008, 12:34:55 AM
My comments are in italics - Josh

Beowulf is British. Grendel is not.


What we were thinking about were "classics", such as Something Wicked This Way Comes, The Martian Chronicles by Ray Bradbury and The Day The Earth Stood Still and War of the Worlds by H. G. Wells. It is a literature class, not a religion class.

Something Wicked This Way Comes is not a novel - I had tried to stick to novels. The Day The Earth Stood Still is from Harry Bates's short story "Farewell to the Master." (There is a 2008 version coming out, though!)

The bias to which I referred was concerning "
wants to use the story as a lead in to "something good"." I perceive this as suggesting that she does not think of SF as being or having "something good" to offer.

I suggested the religiously themed books because these seemed apt and are award winning novels. I went for some of the very best that is out there.

If I were going to pick an HG Wells novel, given the Asimov story, I would go with The Shape of Things to Come, rather than War of the Worlds. In many ways, it was chillingly prophetic.


I am wondering now if the best idea would not be to pick a "classic" so much as a recent acclaimed book in the science fiction genre, something to compare what is anticipate in the future with what actually happens, and to let the students speculate whether the worlds described are likely to come about that way and how they may be different.

So, that all said, a part of me thinks Speaker for the Dead may be a grand choice. Some of them may well have read Ender's Game already (Orson Scott Card), and this is a sequel - but one that stands alone pretty well.

It's too bad this is an American Lit course because really, John Brunner's  Shockwave Rider does as good a job of looking at the effects of the current world on people moving forward as anything out there, because it was written in direct response to futurist Alvin Toffler's Future Shock.

But I think, reading what more you have written, I have two last suggestions for your friend's consideration, at least for this night.

City, by Clifford Simak, takes a long range view of the present to the future, while looking at some potential consequences of our approach to things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_%28Clifford_D._Simak_novel%29

Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang, by Kate Wilhelm, explores a post-apocolyptic world, some of the directions that genetic research might lead us to, and other such things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Late_the_Sweet_Birds_Sang

I have a couple of book lists on line:
(available upon request)

The first was for my first Speculative Literature class in 1978. The second was developed for my 25th anniversary version of that class. Looking at the later list, I see a couple more titles before bed:

Doomsday Book, by Connie Willis, deals with a future world including disease - and time travel including the Black Plague. It is brilliant.

Bug Jack Barron, by Norman Spinrad, presents a powerful media figure trying to unravel a mystery concerning the long-life pill that is only available to the wealthy.

The Child Buyer, by Pulitzer Prize winning author John Hersey, is done in a series of hearings in which the committee explores how it is that this particularly brilliant child has been
sold to a quasi-government agency. It can be very haunting.

Doomsday Book is the only one of these that is actually recent. The Child Buyer is seldom on people's lists of Science Fiction - usually as plain old literature, if it is there at all. But it is very timely as we examine ethics and morality in a governmental context - and an individual one.

Enough for tonight, I think. (Like I said... but it is too late. I am started.)


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 11, 2008, 08:11:11 AM
Josh,

Pat does not have a bias against science fiction, that is why she is including a unit on it for this year. If anything, there is a bias in many who develop literature classes to consider science fiction as lesser form of literature, and Pat is trying to make the change.

I will copy and paste your new list to Pat and see if there is anything that sparks her interest. Do not feel you have to stop supplying suggestions.

My suggestion to Pat was to focus the unit on short stories rather than trying to find a novel or novella that meets the needs, but you suggested some interesting titles under novels.

As to answer your earlier question, yes, Pat's school does a whole lot with interdisciplinary approaches to literature and history. Michigan is moving American Lit and American History to 10th grade. The current 10th graders wil actually skip American Lit, which is why she wants to keep a focus of American Lit for the remainder of this year, so that this class does not entirely escape an American approach.

I don't know if you see this in your approach to teaching literature, but it seems to me that the very wordy styles of many of the "classics" turns modern students off. They seem to prefer the clean, precise writing of other than the classical works. Mark Twain is very wordy. The story of Huck Finn bored her students. Jack London is also very wordy, and my (special ed) students preferred the Sherlock Holmes stories to anything written by Jack London. The lit books I used seemed to feel that The Pearl was a good novel for such readers, but, again my students thought the story was boring, and even felt the movie was confusing and boring, and not worth the attention the authors of the lit books intended.

 



Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on January 11, 2008, 01:48:19 PM
Pat does not have a bias against science fiction, that is why she is including a unit on it for this year. If anything, there is a bias in many who develop literature classes to consider science fiction as lesser form of literature, and Pat is trying to make the change.

Okay

My suggestion to Pat was to focus the unit on short stories rather than trying to find a novel or novella that meets the needs, but you suggested some interesting titles under novels.

Short stories are a simple way to go about things, and often will get around the 'attention span' issue and even, for shorter works, the homework question - you just have the students read the works in class! In fact, next fall, that is the approach I am going to be taking with a science fiction class - we are going to focus on the works in one series of anthologies: Harlan Ellison's Dangerous Visions and Again, Dangerous Visions (Vol. 1 and 2). These are filled with powerful, short pieces of writing.

A past approach, for a class more focused on writing than analysis, saw us reading a few short stories and then the novels that the author later derived from the shorter work. This led to interesting exploration of the strengths and weaknesses of the different forms in ways that we might not have gotten to, otherwise.


As to answer your earlier question, yes, Pat's school does a whole lot with interdisciplinary approaches to literature and history. Michigan is moving American Lit and American History to 10th grade. The current 10th graders wil actually skip American Lit, which is why she wants to keep a focus of American Lit for the remainder of this year, so that this class does not entirely escape an American approach.

Part of the reason for the question is because of the ability to tie literature to other topics - history is particularly good for this, but both history and science lend themselves well to collaborative efforts involving science fiction themes.

I don't know if you see this in your approach to teaching literature, but it seems to me that the very wordy styles of many of the "classics" turns modern students off. They seem to prefer the clean, precise writing of other than the classical works. Mark Twain is very wordy. The story of Huck Finn bored her students. Jack London is also very wordy, and my (special ed) students preferred the Sherlock Holmes stories to anything written by Jack London. The lit books I used seemed to feel that The Pearl was a good novel for such readers, but, again my students thought the story was boring, and even felt the movie was confusing and boring, and not worth the attention the authors of the lit books intended.

Attention. The bane of literature classes - even some of my favorite SF books fall prey to students' desire (need?) for ACTION ALL THE TIME! Watching/listening to the timing of older movies shows this up, often, as well. So, too, does the absence of a continuous music sound track with some of those movies.

The classics vary, widely, of course. And one man's boring is another's scintillating. That said, sometimes I cheat. With students of a certain need, I use Classics Illustrated, for example. The graphic novel versions are far more approachable for verbally weak students. Some of them are on line, too!

And when they watch the movies, we turn Closed Captioning on.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on January 11, 2008, 02:00:28 PM
Josh,

Pat does not have a bias against science fiction, that is why she is including a unit on it for this year. If anything, there is a bias in many who develop literature classes to consider science fiction as lesser form of literature, and Pat is trying to make the change.

I will copy and paste your new list to Pat and see if there is anything that sparks her interest. Do not feel you have to stop supplying suggestions.

My suggestion to Pat was to focus the unit on short stories rather than trying to find a novel or novella that meets the needs, but you suggested some interesting titles under novels.

As to answer your earlier question, yes, Pat's school does a whole lot with interdisciplinary approaches to literature and history. Michigan is moving American Lit and American History to 10th grade. The current 10th graders wil actually skip American Lit, which is why she wants to keep a focus of American Lit for the remainder of this year, so that this class does not entirely escape an American approach.

I don't know if you see this in your approach to teaching literature, but it seems to me that the very wordy styles of many of the "classics" turns modern students off. They seem to prefer the clean, precise writing of other than the classical works. Mark Twain is very wordy. The story of Huck Finn bored her students. Jack London is also very wordy, and my (special ed) students preferred the Sherlock Holmes stories to anything written by Jack London. The lit books I used seemed to feel that The Pearl was a good novel for such readers, but, again my students thought the story was boring, and even felt the movie was confusing and boring, and not worth the attention the authors of the lit books intended.

 



YOU CAN'T HAVE TRUE EDUCATION WITHOIUT BORING NOVELS!  ARE YOU KIDDING ME????????


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on January 11, 2008, 02:32:25 PM
YOU CAN'T HAVE TRUE EDUCATION WITHOIUT BORING NOVELS!  ARE YOU KIDDING ME????????

I would have phrased it differently than that, but if you mean 'without classics,' then I would agree with you.

I would also note that a relatively small percentage of the world ever gets a 'true education.'


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on January 11, 2008, 02:37:54 PM
lol


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on January 11, 2008, 03:42:33 PM
the word "education" comes from "educe", Latin word, meaning "to draw out".

Life is an ongoing drawing out of yourself, so long as you have been "educated" enough to see it that way.

Otherwise, it becomes something that people think they "get", like a set of invisible encyclopedias clinging inside the cortex of the brain, waiting for just the right moment in life to be tapped into.

Holy Tabula Rasa!

The selection of literature for a class must have a specific purpose for that particular class.

Begin with who you are teaching and what you want to them to learn after they are through interacting with the book. What you choose will come much more naturally.

In other words, begin at the end when you plan, and the process becomes much easier.

That would be my advice on book selection.

 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 11, 2008, 04:38:18 PM
Josh,

Thanks for the additions. I will send all the recs to Pat tonight. I really liked you lists of reading from '78 and 2003.

Utley,

Pat knows her students well. This is half-way through the second year she's had them. So, she already has some clues what is boring to her students and what would be a waste of her time. We have talked before about her various classes, and I didn't list the characteristics because I was looking for a specific genre. Josh's lists of short stories may change her mind about using a novel, but it may be that the way she interprets the state requirements, she may need to do a "book" however that may be defined.

Pat also mentioned that whatever book/s she chooses have to be available for her students to buy for less than $10. Last evening, hubby and I checked out some of the books he recommended for her and they are all available used from Amazon within the price.

Over the weekend, if I get the chance, I'll check and see how many of the short stories Josh recommended are now in public domain and free online. That is what got Pat and I into the discussion. I was telling her about the Asimov story and she asked how she could get it for her kids to read, and I replied that they could just print it out from my website, since it is now public domain.

Beside trying to help out my sister, I am interested in compiling lists of readings to go on my website with links to those books/stories that are available free or at nominal cost online. I think that will be a step in the direction of putting more and more educational content online instead of in expensive and limited "textbooks".



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 11, 2008, 05:42:04 PM
Utley,

When someone's been in the classroom for something around 25-30 years, and they are talking about re-arranging their reading list for the current year, you can probably safely assume that the teacher has already learned what factor to include in a decision on what readings to assign. On the other hand, knowing a teacher is nearing the end of her career rather than the beginning, you can also assume that some reading selections will be based on the teacher's "tradition" at that school. Pat had to assert her tradition to do something with Romeo & Juliette in 9th grade English from her principal who said that Shakespeare might be "too hard" for the students. Come to think of it, that was this 10th grade class in 9th grade that went so far as to cry to the principal that they shouldn't have to learn Shakespeare at their tender age! The principal, with absolutely no backbone whatsoever, tried to get Pat to change her plans based on the whining and Pat had to stand firm. The kids ended up enjoying Romeo and Juliette, at least many of them did. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on January 11, 2008, 10:26:21 PM
Thanks for the additions. I will send all the recs to Pat tonight. I really liked you lists of reading from '78 and 2003.

Thanks

I'll check and see how many of the short stories Josh recommended are now in public domain and free online. That is what got Pat and I into the discussion.

Ah, free online books. There are thousands of them. Many of them are SF.
Below are some links to on-line libraries:
http://www.schulers.com/books/author_index.htm
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page - the largest repository of free books
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/meta/authors.html
http://etext.virginia.edu/ebooks/
http://books.google.com - but one has to be careful to select "full text" or one gets a lot of extraneous works
http://www.wowio.com - allows one to download up to 3 'books' per day, has a wonderful supply of graphic novels and older and newer comics, as well as a lot of good books
http://www.visionww.org/library.htm - this includes some links above, but it also includes links to free audio books!
http://www.doaks.org/etexts.html - Probably not useful for Pat, but has lots of fascinating historical texts

http://www.baen.com/library/authors.htm - Baen is a publisher of Science Fiction and Fantasy titles. This list includes books that they currently sell - with the hope that if one reads a book on line and likes it, that s/he might buy another book by the same author.

Few of these books would make it on my list of 'must read' books, though many of the authors are also on that list. For sheer pleasure of reading, Telzey Amberdon by James Schmitz has a strong female protagonist. On Basilisk Station by David Weber is good military Science Fiction.

And a common short story used in high schools is Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron, which can be found here:
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html

Lastly, this site has some course materials for teaching this and that about/with Science Fiction:
http://www.aboutsf.com/lessons/contents.php


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 11, 2008, 11:06:56 PM
Thanks for the list of links to online books, Josh. I am saving it all in a file and will work it together in the coming weeks. Pat is enthused by the list of possible titles you provided and is planning to do some reading and studying on preparing that unit for sometime in the spring. What started out as her enthusiasm for her kids reading a short story that I already have on my site, has turned into a whole new unit for the spring. I'd called Pat to wish her a happy birthday, and we got into a discussion, as we often do, about what we are each doing with education. I'm glad that something I've done is useful to my sister.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on January 12, 2008, 02:09:15 AM
Thanks for the list of links to online books, Josh.

I'm glad that something I've done is useful to my sister.

You and she are very welcome.

Do you know if she gets the ALAN review?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 12, 2008, 07:39:49 AM
Josh,

Don't know what the ALAN review is? What is it, and I'll ask her if she gets it.

It is interesting to consider what Pat and I have and have not shared over the years. She started out as a classroom teacher, took a few years off for motherhood and other types of jobs, and then when her time was free enough to return to classroom work, she went to work for Mount Carmel first as an English teacher, then as a social studies teacher (which was OK with Michigan law at the time since she did a minor in history and got her masters in English. Now the law says that with only a minor in history she either has to take classes or an exam to continue teaching history, so she is back to teaching English.

In the nineties, when Pat was still without much technology in her classroom, she stuck strongly to the old ways of teaching - reading, reading, and more reading. I was heavily into the use of technology to teach English - using movies in conjunction with reading mostly short stories since my students were really poor readers. Now, she has the technology in her classroom, and has gone heavily into the use of movies, videos, DVD's and the Internet for teaching English. Her students, the average to above students, are now as reluctant to read as my special ed students were. Pat and I have one other sister who is in education. Chris just got her masters in ed. Chris currently works with adults in the prison population, again, another group of reluctant readers. The other three of our sisters went into other fields, although all of us are heavily into technology as are many of our children.

Josh, what would you see as the reasons to teach science fiction? I want to put such ideas onto the opening webpage for the site. I know it is a great way to study the art of the short story, and you mentioned the development of short stories into novels as another reason. I would think that looking at the settings, time and place, would be well developed in science fiction. If there are aliens in the story, one has to describe sentient non-human beings successfully. If one is projecting the future, there is a lot of description that must convey what is different and what is the same from now. I always find it interesting to see how the future of computers is projected at whatever time the author writes and see how computers developed differently in the interim.

What do you perceive to be the important literary skills to be explored specificially with science fiction?








Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on January 12, 2008, 12:21:40 PM
Don't know what the ALAN review is? What is it, and I'll ask her if she gets it.

The National Council for Teachers of English (NCTE) has a number of sub-groups. The Adolescent Literature Assembly of NCTE (or something like that - ALAN) is one of them - they do reviews on a monthly basis and discuss many of the issues involved with the meld of this population and reading.

Now, she has the technology in her classroom, and has gone heavily into the use of movies, videos, DVD's and the Internet for teaching English. Her students, the average to above students, are now as reluctant to read as my special ed students were. Pat and I have one other sister who is in education. Chris just got her masters in ed. Chris currently works with adults in the prison population, again, another group of reluctant readers.

A lot of the reluctance to read is a failure to have developed the habit as kids, and even more a failure of their parents to read to them as children, I suspect. There is insufficient research, though, so it is informed conjecture, rather than proof, that I have.

I suspect Chris knows this already, but the prison population has a disproportionately huge percentage of what some folks have labeled 'visual-spatial' learners/thinkers. They don't think in words, but in images, and the reading process is not the same as it is for those of us who think in words. It made phonics a less effective method of learning to read - but without making the whole-word method particularly good, either. Reading, then, becomes a more deliberate process, and that much less fluid.

Josh, what would you see as the reasons to teach science fiction? I want to put such ideas onto the opening webpage for the site. I know it is a great way to study the art of the short story, and you mentioned the development of short stories into novels as another reason. I would think that looking at the settings, time and place, would be well developed in science fiction. If there are aliens in the story, one has to describe sentient non-human beings successfully. If one is projecting the future, there is a lot of description that must convey what is different and what is the same from now. I always find it interesting to see how the future of computers is projected at whatever time the author writes and see how computers developed differently in the interim.

What do you perceive to be the important literary skills to be explored specifically with science fiction?

This is a beginning answer to your questions:

As with any genre, the best of SF focuses on the people and not on primarily on the background that drives the genre. There is only so much attention one can pay to the ray guns, planet, or teleportation device before you have lost most readers, as surely as a focus on the tumbleweed, the horseshoe, or the pistol's barrel might lose a reader of Westerns. Therefore, in either reading or writing, the question arises of "What drives this story? What makes this story worth telling?" and even "Why is this a Science Fiction story? Does it need to be?" Sharon Shinn took Jane Eyre and created Jenna Starborn. John Crowley took the War of the Roses and made The Deep. John Brunner took Future Shock, a non-fiction projection of what life was becoming as the rapid changes of the information age took hold, and created The Shockwave Rider.

Most of the realms of fiction are, at least ostensibly, based in what is. Fantasy is based in what cannot be. Science Fiction is, mostly, based on what could be, even if it is not. It explores both hope and despair while stretching the imagination in new and different ways. Because the scenes are plausible, if not likely, it permits an examination of values, philosophies, and relationships from divergent perspectives that bring new meaning to them.

An example of this would be Ursula K. Leguin's The Dispossessed. A group of anarchists cause sufficient trouble that their society exiles them to the moon - but this moon is habitable. Barely. The anarchists have to construct a rather rigid structure to survive, while down below on the planet the government that so eschews disorder is really the embodiment of anarchy, even if they are unprepared to admit it.

What is real? What does it mean to be human? How are we separate from animals? How do we deal with the differences between and among us? What are the potential consequences of decisions made for us, not by us, among the scientists and/or politicians?

What if things had gone differently? How would we be different? How would I be different?

What if...








Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 12, 2008, 11:26:18 PM
Josh,

You really did capture the essence of science fiction in your summary. I especially liked how you ended it. Science Fiction is indeed the explorations of "what if?"

As to the non-verbal thinking styles of the people incarcerated, you made a good point. There are many in prison whose offenses against society could be easily labeled "thinking outside the box". Not all humans use the classic left-brain "logic" to solve problems and make decisions.

Before I retired, I served on the W3C committee to develop guidelines to make the web accessible to those with disabilities. If left up to many of those without vision, the web would be devoid of any graphics, illustrations, or multi-media. My role on the committee was to present the needs of those who are "disabled" in that they are unable to make efficient use of text and or words. It was amazing to see the prejudice of educated folks towards those who consider graphics, illustrations and multi-media to be more than "eye candy". When I first introduced the topic, I was told that it was not as issue. All such people were "retarded" and the retarded would never be able to use a computer or the Internet. Patiently, I explained that I'd had such students using the Internet a decade earlier, most, before the capability of graphics had been developed for the web. Using words was not their forte, but they were able to use it to develop their ideas and express them. Many of those students would have accomplished more with the Internet as we know it now, but they were using computers it when computers were supposedly "only" for the gifted and very bright.

You are right that phonics is a lousy reading program to use with people who are graphically rather than verbally oriented. Not only does it depend on getting meaning from a set of letters, but phonics also depends on hearing ability. Many of the students I taught over the years were labeled dyslexic. Many of them also had a history of hearing problems especially in the early grades of schooling. Medical care in the area was not too good (rural - country docs are not known for amassing wealth!) so off-and-on hearing loss was common. Hearing problems just about destroy any chance of learning to read via the phonics route. As you say, the whole word process still depended on the student being verbally inclined. But, there was one componant of whole word instruction that did suit such kids, and that was memorizing the "look" of the word. Were there tall letters in the word, and in what positions.

A method that I found useful was called "Direct Access" by its developer. He originally intended it for the deaf, so when I read about it I wondered how it would do with my kids who had experienced short term deafness. The method has the student associate a picture with a given word. The picture must define the meaning TO THE CHILD. It does absolutely no good to develop a set of pictures to give to students and expect them to pair them with the words. The picture must come from the child's understanding of the meaning of the word.

In clinical form, the method involves giving the student a list of words to learn. They first write the word on an index card. Then on another index card, they draw a picture that illustrates the meaning. After the student has made a tidy pile of words and pictures, they are asked to play various matching games to correctly match the picture with meaning to the written word.

In my classroom, I developed a "format" that my kids could do either in a notebook, or on specially designed "worksheets". They copied the words from the blackboard, drew a picture in a small 2"x2" box. Then they copied a definition from the dictionary, and wrote two original sentences using the word. At one time, I had the students also writing the word 10 or 5 times, but I found that this was a waste of time. Writing the word, keeping it facing them, drawing the picture, and writing the original sentences were the parts of the activity that helped. Copying the dictionary definition was intended to help develop dictionary skills more than aid in learning the word.

I got enthused over Learning Styles in the eighties just before I got my first computer and modem. Dr. Rita Dunn of St. John's in NYC came down to edumicate us rural folks in these theories, and they really stuck with me. A variety of learning styles, instead of one preferred learning style that everyone is supposed to learn from, made really good sense with my diverse students. In a few years, I had the great fortune to meet a colleague of Mrs. Dunn online, and I was able to pick his brain for the rest of my career to help apply the concepts of diverse learning styles in whatever situation I found myself teaching in. Dr. Z (Dunn's colleague) is now retired, and runs a charitable foundation that support the server where all my webpages are stored and displayed without having to include ads. He is my strongest supporter as I work toward putting as much useful content on the web as I can develop.

So, even if Chris had never taken note of the fact that her prison students are diverse in their learning styles, even if she had never made an overview of learning styles in pursuit of her masters, she would have heard about it from me. As it is, Chris is quite knowledgeable about the various learning style theories, and knows more about the breadth of them than I do, since I sorta got stuck on the Rita and Ken Dunn theories early on.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 30, 2008, 11:47:04 AM
A brave new initiative in Chicago:

http://www.chicagotribune.com:80/news/local/chi-chicago-school-reform_29jan29,0,5268474.story

I guess this will be a test whether changing the teachers will infuse enough new blood to make a change.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on January 30, 2008, 12:21:20 PM
Anne,

I guess this will be a test whether changing the teachers will infuse enough new blood to make a change.

New blood without the empowerment to create top-to-bottom change is meaningless.

These teachers, like the ones here in Denver, need to be free from the twin burdens of district and state curriculum and testing mandates.

Of course, this would require that teachers be respected for their intelligence, and that will never happen.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 30, 2008, 01:23:15 PM
Cap,

You are right! Until the politicos shrink the administrations to free up funds for the classroom. They replaced a school here in Dinwiddie and are now considering what to do with the old building they said cost too much to renovate. With a gleam in their eye, they say the space in the country admin buildiing is getting too small for the school admin ... of course, as I know quite well, there are some sitting in those office who do nothing but eat donuts and study brochures for confer4ences to go to that they should be sending the teachers to. I was aghast when I presented at a VSTE conference three years ago, and the techie admin was there, with wife, and none of the teachers were there. The conference was designed for teachers, but Dinwiddie would rather send an admin instead. Then they wonder why the teachers aren't using the technology at the level they could be. Stupidity!


Title: Bosses vs. Leaders
Post by: weezo on January 30, 2008, 08:14:09 PM
The following was a email from a long time friend in the education field. It explains the difference between teachers who belittle their students and teachers who enable their students:

Well, Michael called me another question that led to still another question.  He
asked, "Shouldn't the teacher be the boss in the classroom?"

I answered, "She or he should be a leader."

"What's the difference?" he replied.

"All the world," I said.

I explained that many academics talk about classroom leadership and practice
classroom a bossism.  I was just reading something Russell Ewing wrote in which he
differentiated between a boss and a leader.  He said, 'A boss creates fear, a leader
confidence. A boss fixes blame, a leader corrects mistakes. A boss knows all, a leader
asks questions. A boss makes work drudgery, a leader makes it interesting.  A boss is
interested in himself or herself, a leader is interested in the group'  What Ewing is
saying is that the leader coaches while the boss drives, that true leaders are those who
lead by example rather than by intimidation. The primary task of a leader is to keep hope
alive, not instill fear   Great leaders identify fears, erase them with love, and
therefore inspire.  The whole point of leadership, then, is having power with people, of
giving power to people--not lording power over them.  Leadership is not about authority
and power.  I don't think authority and power are leadership. When you lead people you are
actually helping people accomplish more; you're helping people, in the words of the
Marines, be all that they can be.   

This is something a lot of us academics should remember in the classroom.   

Make it a good day.

      --Louis--


Louis Schmier                                http://therandomthoughts.edublogs.org/
Department of History                  http://www.newforums.com/Auth_L_Schmier.asp
Valdosta State University             www. halcyon.com/arborhts/louis.html
Valdosta, Georgia 31698                  /\   /\  /\               /\
(229-333-5947)                                /^\\/  \/   \   /\/\__/\  \/\
                                                        /     \/   \_ \/  /   \/ /\/     \
/\
                                                       //\/\/ /\    \__/__/_/\_\
\_/__\
                                                /\"If you want to climb mountains,\ /\
                                            _ /  \    don't practice on mole hills" -


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on January 31, 2008, 09:58:52 AM
All you need to know as to why schools have trouble being autonomous and meeting the needs of their students is summed up in this article:

http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/national/2008/01/31/Young.Hunters/

Legislators who wish to treat education as a training camp for whatever happens to be their pet issue are the problem, not educators in the schools.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on January 31, 2008, 10:05:48 AM
All you need to know as to why schools have trouble being autonomous and meeting the needs of their students is summed up in this article:

http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/national/2008/01/31/Young.Hunters/

Legislators who wish to treat education as a training camp for whatever happens to be their pet issue are the problem, not educators in the schools.

I fear it is not an 'either/or' sort of thing.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on January 31, 2008, 01:26:34 PM
Utley,

You are right that the teachers are not the problem. It is the meddling by legislators that is the problem. In reading more about the Chicago story yesterday, it seems this has been tried before in Chicago and has always failed. There is one educator on the EDDRA list who feels that the heavy presence of lead in the air around highways is an issue in the difficulty with educating children in the nearby neighborhoods. He pointed out that all of the schools in this latest round of political meddling are in areas where lead is heavy in the air. I'm sure that the lead is also a factor for the teachers, who are also inhaling it and it is probably diminishing their capacities to teach.

And yes, it is silly to expect the schools to "train" future hunters and gun enthusiasts if the enthusiasm for that way of life is drifting away. It makes no sense to try to boose sales of gun licenses by training high school kids in the use of guns. Further, it makes no sense to "train" them on dummies. That would be like teaching them to read using wooden models of books without content.


Title: Rooftop Rescue is now available
Post by: weezo on February 05, 2008, 10:37:15 PM
Just got this email. The site let's you order it, or you can wait for Amazon!

It is official.  "Sara" is now in print.  February 5th is the official publication date for Rooftop Rescue - The High Adventures of Sara, the Pineapple Cat.  Story by Anne Louise Pemberton.  Illustrations by Katharine Sandalls.
 
Tell your friends!
 
Thank you,
 
David Tullis
www.sarathepineapplecat.com
 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: Lhoffman on February 06, 2008, 01:21:39 AM
Congratulations Anne!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on February 06, 2008, 06:07:26 AM
Thanks, Laurie!

I am so excited that I am almost forgetting to keep up with the Super Tuesday news, but it all seems good. I am going to order the book, so I can see how the ordering process goes, and also because I want to see how the illustrations turned out. According to the website, this is the first Children's book for the illustrator, so I am anxious to see how she did it.

I need to prepare some press releases for the local papers and send out an email to those on my newsletter list. My sister Edith was the first to get the news last night (she is in Washington state, so it was not late for her to get email). She is the one who got a teacher there to start using the History Hat Stories, and the kids made their own History Hats to put on while she read the stories to them. I wish she could have sent me a pictures of the class in their hats, but Edith is suffering from severe bipolar depression and swings between good days and bad days. I understand that the second book in the series is well underway and will be more of an emotional story than an adventure story. Hopefully the series will soon be in school libraries everywhere.

I am truly on a high! Touch me! So I know it's real!



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on February 10, 2008, 07:25:43 PM
Just a reminder that this is an education forum, not a self-promotion advertisement space.

That is all.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on February 10, 2008, 07:35:34 PM
It's a children's book, suitable for school libraries and classroom reading, you old fool!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on February 10, 2008, 07:43:48 PM
I'm not old.

and I'm not a fool.

Otherwise I'd support your self-interested advertisements on the forums.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on February 10, 2008, 08:48:51 PM
Well, you can pretend to be what you want to be. But, you can only pretend so far, and we can all see through that deprecating persona you want to wear. It all boils down to jealousy. You've tried before to make out that you are more of a teacher than me, and nobody swallowed it. Now, it really bugs you that I have published a children's book. So much so, that on NASCAR forum, you express a desire to see Sara the Pineapple Cat become roadkill. Sorry, you can't - she's a fiction! And you're still an old fool!



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on February 11, 2008, 03:35:53 PM
Well, you can pretend to be what you want to be. But, you can only pretend so far, and we can all see through that deprecating persona you want to wear. It all boils down to jealousy. You've tried before to make out that you are more of a teacher than me, and nobody swallowed it. Now, it really bugs you that I have published a children's book. So much so, that on NASCAR forum, you express a desire to see Sara the Pineapple Cat become roadkill. Sorry, you can't - she's a fiction! And you're still an old fool!



Yeah, that's it. I wish I was a Walmart-greeter with a stolen identity, and a plagiarized book on the market.  That's the life!


Title: Question in Physics
Post by: weezo on February 16, 2008, 12:15:27 AM
Laurie,

Months ago you offered your husband's help in developing science applications for my website. So, tonight I am posing two questions in the area of physics. The first begins with a quote for the Isaacson biography on Einstein - a problem that Einstein could picture in his head. I need to know more about what the concept shows. In the second problem, I have an elementary activity for which the teacher, who had used the activity for so many years that she had forgotten what it illustrated.

I am hopeful that your husband can help fill in the gaps so I can include these activitie/demonstrations on the website:

Problem 1:

“Gravity, he (Einstein) figured, was a warping of space and time, and he came up with the equations that describe how the dynamics of this curvature result fron the interplay  between matter, motion and energy. It can be described by using another thought experiment. Picture what it would be like to roll a bowling ball onto the two dimensional surface of a trampoline. Then roll some billiard balls. They roll toward the bowling ball not because it exerts some mysterious attraction but because of the way it curves the trampoline fabric. Now, imagine this happening in the four dimensional fabric of space and time. Okay it’s not easy, but that’s why we’re no Einstein, and he was.”

What exactly is being demonstrated? The movement of heavenly bodies such as planets to the sun? moons to the planets? astroids? Solar systems in the universe? Electrons around a neutron? Atoms in a molecule? Molecules in a gas, liquid or solid?

Problem 2:

A few years ago I was doing sections of a summer institute for science teachers and showing them how to use the Internet for communications. The goal was to help improve elementary science teaching by collaboration between elementary and secondary teachers in science. The two computers to be used for the collaboration were at opposite corners of a large building, and, since I had to coordinate the technology and keep the people on task, I ran my legs off that day down the long halls between the two computers. Among the elementary teachers was an excited older teacher who quickly sat at the computer and described a lesson to the secondary teachers at the other end of the building. She called the lesson: Newton’s Sprinklers. She detailed how you had the kids collect milk cartons from lunch, rinse them out, coat them with white paint,, punch holes in the four bottom corners, fill them with water, and let the kid s see the water dribbling out. The Secondary teachers at the other end of the collaboration tried in vain to elicit exactly what concept of Newton’s she was demonstrating. All she could say was that if you weren’t using this lesson you were missing out on a lot of fun for the students. To this day, I am not sure what concept she was teaching. It was perhaps lost over many years of using the activity. It frustrated the secondary teachers, who agreed that it sounded like fun, but could not discern what science she was teaching.

Can you ask your husband to explain what may have been being taught, and what she should have been telling the kids about their experiment>?

Thanks to you and hubby for any help or light they can shed on these two situations.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: Lhoffman on February 16, 2008, 12:44:53 AM
Anne....I will be glad to ask him tomorrow, as he is on the phone with someone from work right now.

I suspect the milk carton experiment had to do with Newton's Third Law...."Every action has an equal and opposite reaction."  I'm not sure what the purpose of the white paint was, but if you were to poke holes in the four bottom corners of a milk carton (probably the carton was suspended on string or rope?), then cover the holes and fill the carton with water, suspend the carton and uncover the holes, the milk carton should spring back with force equal to the force of the water shooting out of the four corners.

This is the principle that lawn sprinklers are designed around (the force of the water shooting out of the head pushes the head in the opposite direction so the thing turns and your entire yard gets watered), probably why the teacher called the experiment "Newton's Sprinklers."

I will get back to you with the Einstein tomorrow.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on February 16, 2008, 09:05:18 AM
Laurie,

When you mention lawn sprinklers, I went to my hubby, since he's a master plumber, and he is explaining that it has something to do with water pressure, and I am still confused. He know "practical physics" but as far as saying something is Newton's third law, as a reaon, is not in his knowledge area.

The secondary teachers asked for the reason for the white paint, and it was to keep the carton sturdy.

Hubby thinks it may be a re-creating a sprinkler pattern if you open one hole at a time. But he isn't sure. The good news is that working on thie explanation is encouraging him to take more courses this year to maintain his licenses, something he's been too depressed to consider until now. So, score one for the exercise of explaining this phenomena.

Looking forward to your husband's input!

BLW, got my copy of Rooftop Rescue yesterday and love the illustrations. I found one grammar boo-boo in it.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: Lhoffman on February 16, 2008, 11:45:56 AM
Anne...I didn't find the grammar error, and Maria (the little girl I was watching) was quite enthralled with the book.

On the milk carton experiment, probably this is a two-person experiment, because it would be difficult to uncover the four holes while keeping the carton suspended.  I think the idea is to give the students a visual demonstration of the force of the water going one way (down) while pushing the milk carton the other.

Here is what my husband wrote me on your Einstein question (apparently he got up quite early):

Dealing with physics at 4AM
 
 
What Einstein (and others) figured out was that light (and therefore time!) is affected by matter, because of the surprising fact that gravity, time, and space all affect each other. This is what is meant by the "warping" of space and time. The bowling ball on a trampoline is meant to illustrate the phenomenon.
 
Let us compare two situations, gravity without and then with the idea of "warping".
 
1. Without "Einstein space-time warping"
Imagine that the trampoline is replaced by a flat table, with the table representing the universe where, among other things, light travels from place to place. (The universe may be thought of as space-time in mathematical terms). Pretend that the bowling ball is a big star and pretend that a ping-pong ball is light traveling from one place to another (perhaps we are looking at a star through a telescope). Obviously the bowling ball will not change the table. If we roll the ping-pong ball on the table it will move in the direction that we roll it as if the bowling ball was not there. That is, light seems to travel in a straight line.
2. With "Einstein space-time warping"
Now imagine that the trampoline is the table. Now when we roll a ping-pong ball it will change direction if it comes sufficiently near the deformation caused by the bowling ball. In other words, light seems to bend! This effect has actually been observed, for example, when looking through a telescope at a star whose light passes near another star (in particular, the sun).
 
To answer some of the teacher's questions, space-time warping is only observable when stuff gets really big (lots of gravity). So, the idea doesn't help us understand the physics of electrons, atoms, or even small planets. The space-time warping effect is always present, but it is impossible to detect unless the "warp" is large enough to observe. Returning to the trampoline analogy, a marble will bend the trampoline, but our eyes and ping-pong experiments will not notice it, but the bowling ball will bend it enough to see.
 
One more interesting note. If the bowling ball is large enough, light will bend so much as to be trapped by the "warpage" of the bowling ball. This is a Black Hole.
 
Too many words?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on February 16, 2008, 03:08:30 PM
Laurie,

Thanks to hubby for clearing up a lot of my misconceptions on this phenomena. He would make an excellent teacher, since he seems to anticipate what you will question, and the addresses it in the next paragraph.

I have prinited out his explanation and will cozy up with it in a chair and my thinking cap (not to be confused with my history hat-grin). I am wondering if a ball of light would better demonstrate it for children, than a bowling ball.... a special ball that emits light from a battery source. Then roll little balls of colored lights toward the bowling ball and see where the color beams go. I would like to know where I could find pictures of light bending from star light passing by a large star. If sufficiently detailed, that may be helpful.

I think some part of my problem with this concept is that I was imagining it a demonstration of gravity more than the path of light. It really does a nice job of explaining gravity and how the warp of space makes bodies attract to each other. If that is accurate, of course.

But I think that bowling ball needs to be a light ball and the pinkpong balls small lights of different colors for the kids to understand it. I think it is the idea that a bowling ball is solid, and usually black, that gave me a problem in picturing it. Also the fact that the light does not pass through the trampoline (again usually black), so that you cannot see the light warping under the bowling ball... it seems to stop it, as effectively as closing a door to block light from coming out of a room.

If the bowling ball blocks the pingpong balls, it would seem to be enveloping it in the larger ball of light rather than bending the light itself around the large object. As I said, some aspects of physics elude me as much as having my feet do different things at the same time, as in playing a full organ, or driving a straight shift car. My bad!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: Lhoffman on February 16, 2008, 03:14:05 PM
Anne...you are quite welcome.  Husband is a fine and creative teacher, and he enjoys it whenever he gets the opportunity.  As to curling up in a chair, I remember when he was studying relativity that his professor advised him that the best approach was to sit in a dark room and try to visualize it.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on February 16, 2008, 03:55:04 PM
Laurie,

The error in the book is on page 18, middle paragraph, middle sentence. It says: The clouds move across the sky and disappeared above the woods. "move" should be "moved", unless there is something that I don't know about grammar that the publisher recognized and I'm not.

Sometimes, when I need to think about a story I am writing, I go lay down in the bedroom, close my eyes, and try not to fall asleep as I work through the plot or the details.

When I worked with the program to score Rita Dunn's Learning Style Analysis, and later tried to illustrate it for LD kids (I'm no illustrator, even using a computer for art, it didn't work out, but that was back in the days of working with pixels - dots), there was a question of how you think best - sitting in a straight chair, curled in a comfy chair, or stretched out on a bed.

I enjoy reading the story I wrote. It amazes me that I wrote such a lovely story, and the illustrations do make it such a lovely story. If I were a man I'd be polishing the stones on my chest (paraphrasing what hubby told Utley recently). As it is, I reach out and give Rescue a big hug, since he was so much inspiration to creating Sara The Pineapple Cat. It is his mixture of bravado followed by cautiousness that was it shown in Sara in this book. It will be interesting to see how the next book in the series expresses the personality of Sara. I think the publisher said that the next in the series will include the birth of the twins, and Sara will be adjusting to the addition of two noisy babies in her previously quiet home with Susan and David. If I remember correctly, the twins are boys, so as they grow up in the series, it will be interesting to see how dainty Sara deals with the onslaught of boyness.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: pugetopolis on March 04, 2008, 08:12:13 PM
(http://www.brynmawrfilm.org/Images/Blackboard-Jungle.jpg)

A New Paradigm

—for Hoffman, Josh, Weezo, MrUtley, Donotremove, Cap

I see a new paradigm—
A new wave of Education
Coming down, baby…

A new Paradigm—
But it won’t be pretty…
More like a Tsunami

When the Thirties—
And the Depression come
Back again…

There won’t be Money—
Not for K-12 anyway but
Corporate U will survive…

No Escape tho—
For the young folks
Like back then…

No rails to hit—
No California Dream
No place to go…

Get ready America—
Your children are gonna
Come Back Home!!!

Them & their kids—
Back to Mommy Daddy
Back Home Again!!!

No time anymore—
For Home Alone, baby…
It’s Family Time again…

Just like Old Times—
When Family was One…
One Big Apple Pie!!!

All dressed up—
And nowhere to go…
Home Again, baby…




Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 04, 2008, 08:34:53 PM
Puge,

Your poem makes an interesting point. If all funding for education dries up - if corporate greed again pulls down the American economy, the children may not have school to go to.

What can be done? Well, if the Internet isn't unplugged by the depression, and if families don't sell their computers to put food on the table, then the Internet will be the answer to education for those children who go home to stay with mommy and daddy all day. Sadly, tho, Mommy may have to give up her "stories" in order to make sure the kiddies stay on task. And daddy can't be practicing his golf swing when Junior needs to learn math.

Will it come to that, Puge? I really do not think so. But it would be nice to think of a beginning to at home online education taking the place of putting kids into huge building with not enough adults to go around.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: pugetopolis on March 04, 2008, 09:16:59 PM
Will it come to that, Puge? But it would be nice to think of a beginning to at home online education taking the place of putting kids into huge building with not enough adults to go around.

Yes, Weezo—I think it’s coming down fast.

Maybe even before the election is over—like tonight.

The thing with paradigm shifts is sometimes they’re slow…

But sometimes they’re fast…
 
Paradigm shifts resolve conflicts, e.g. fed v. state funding.

No more conflicts—if there’s no more money.

I-net home schooling is  nothing new.

Many online degrees—cheaper GED’s that’s for sure.

No property taxes = no outdated infrastructure bldgs etc.

Less hate crimes like the Larry King murder too…

But who am I? Just a WPA poet…



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 04, 2008, 10:00:59 PM
Puge,

If you haven't read Asimov's short story "The Fun They Had", you can see it at: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/mrsp/language/FunHad.html

This is a science fiction story set in the future when all kids are educated at home at computers, and the kids who, of course, hate this system, learn about the schools of the past, and think they would enjoy it more to go with other kids to a big building and have a human teacher.

I think it was in 1993 that I became enthralled with the idea of providing education online. I began to make webpages, and continue to do so to this day. I try to track the progress that is being made in online education, and have a small course online which occasionally someone chooses to spend $10 on. (It was more popular when it was free, but very time consuming, and not many really finished the course.) I've also taken online courses to earn a certificate in online teaching, so I have experienced the "ideal" from both side of the screen.

Ooips, gotta go. Saving Grace is on. I'll be back to this later tonight or tomorrow.


Title: Arthur Clarke's Childhood's End
Post by: pugetopolis on March 07, 2008, 08:48:44 PM
(http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n0/n301.jpg)

Puge,
I think it was in 1993 that I became enthralled
with the idea of providing education online.

I've read Arthur Clarke's Childhood's End...

I think that's what is happening now...

Things are more sophisticated than 1993...

YouTube, for example, makes the paradigm shift easier...

Away from print-culture...back to oral culture...

And blogs have smoothed the way too...

The Gutenberg Revolution continues...

How to find one's Voice... in such a culture?

Good luck with your book!!!









Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on March 07, 2008, 09:24:25 PM
Well this Forum proves that access to material via the Iternet or youtube or cellphone, etcetera doesn't make for an education.

Students still need to be taught critical thinking skills, and challenged to examine the world in which they live.

The money is still there to educate, but it's wasted on test companies and materials for test preparation. Couple this with an American public predisposed to being anti-intellectual, and one that is exhausted from being overworked, overstressed, and wanting only to be distracted. Throw in a dash of distrusting of the educated. Over the next decade, the recipe indicates that schooling will likely become more of an experience in which a child survives, rather than thrives.

So, if you are a good teacher, and nearing retirement...don't retire. Kids need you.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 07, 2008, 09:36:47 PM
Puge,

Thanks for the good words on the book. I ordered some for local sales, and was on my way to deliver some to the pharmacy, stopped to pick up cigs, and sold one to the lady who works in the store. Then, at the pharmacy, one of the clerks there bought another before we put them on display.

I'm working on two more stories, one for print, which is an expansion of a book I already have in My Own Books, about the reader going back in history and showing Betsy Ross how to quickly make five point stars. In truth, Betsy already knew how to do it and showed George Washington how easy it was to make five point stars when he had originally wanted six point stars because he thought they would be easier to cut out. I am putting an actual main character hero in the new version, and explaining how the History Hat comes to be and how the child first learns what it can do.

And, on the suggestion of a teacher who wrote me about the books, I will start doing the research for a History Hat story on the Holocaust. I'm not sure yet if I will read Anne Frank's Diary and have the reader visit Anne Frank in hiding, or if I will have the reader pop into one of the death camps. A friend in the Netherlands is going to help me get some pictures to illustrate the story.

In the meantime, I'm trying to keep up with Campaign Trail, and it seems to take hours a day just to read the posts, and I don't re-read what is quoted - it's still a lot. And, I'm not sure that there is much new happening there, so I may have to wean myself off of it for a bit to get some of my own writing done.

A few nights ago I was writing you on one of the forums and got off quickly when Saving Grace was coming on. Since, I haven't been able to remember which forum it was and whether I had anything else to add. I hope I didn't leave you hanging, but I really like Holly Hunter, and Saving Grace is an extraordinary show. They repeated some of the episodes this week, but not the one where she is handcuffed to the bedposts when her "partner" realizes she's a cop and says "I don't do cops", writes on her cheeks and leaves her there. Definitely not "family time" tv.

I have seen education make a lot of changes before I was in the field and since. I am not terribly happy with blogs because they seem to be rather one-way instead of two-way conversations. Someone posts, and others, then comment in short, less than literate, quips. It's better than kids not doing any writing as was true in times past, but it is also not encouraging the deeper thought and expression that we want to see in kids. As long as blogs are a start into more literate writing they are great, but kids really do need to get into writing more deeply than they have been in recent years. In recent years, all the hoopla has been put on reading to the detriment of writing, and I think it is a mistake. Children should be encouraged to write down their stories, dreams, fantasies, observations, etc., and should be encouraged to share them with peers just as they do their "text messages".

BTW, what do you think of the directive out of California a few years back, stating that children's textbooks should not epitomize the "nuclear family", but also include stories of non-standard families? In the My Own Books, I am very careful to use the term "parent" rather than mother or father in most of my stories so that children in non-standard families can really see themselves in the story without a jarring reminder they are "different".



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 07, 2008, 09:49:43 PM
Utley,

We are on the same sheet of music! Those opposed to teaching critical thinking skills insist that we have to fill those little heads with hords of facts BEFORE we teach them to think, which they would push off to college years (but then they want to change college from learning thinking to learning a trade, so where does that leave the development of thinking?)

I know a lot of teachers who are hanging in there for the reasons you cite, when they could be home tending gardens and reading whatever they please, because they know that when the are replaced, it will be by teachers who don't have the same grit and determination towards their fields.

And, yes, the test publishers are getting rich at the expense of children's education. Children need time to explore, discover, consider, compare, contrast, and experiment. They cannot do these things and prepare for a timed multiple choice test at the same time. This week's local paper had a picture from one of the schools that held a "sock hop" to "relax" the kids the Friday before they began a week of grueling, high-stakes tests. Nothing wrong with fifth graders having a "sock hop", but if the tests are that grueling, should they be foisted on such young children? In Virginia, testing begins at third grade. At that point many children still haven't mastered enough reading to be able to demonstrate what they know on a test form. On the tests, third graders are expected to recognize and understand the meaning of the term "inverse" in math. The questions ask them for an "inverse equation", instead of asking them to write the number sentence in a different way, which is the older terminology used for the same concept. Learning the term "equation" is bad enough, but "inverse equation" for third graders seems to me to be far too complex to let them truly understand what they are doing.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on March 07, 2008, 10:16:04 PM
Utley,

We are on the same sheet of music! Those opposed to teaching critical thinking skills insist that we have to fill those little heads with hords of facts BEFORE we teach them to think, which they would push off to college years (but then they want to change college from learning thinking to learning a trade, so where does that leave the development of thinking?)

Teaching kids to think clearly for themselves before college is a bad idea. *removes tongue from cheek*

The day they figure out that they are the true power in any and every school but a lock-down facility is the day that the modern educational system dies.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on March 08, 2008, 09:55:17 AM
Josh,

The day they figure out that they are the true power in any and every school but a lock-down facility is the day that the modern educational system dies.

I would rather say that it's the day the current educational system ends.

Calling it modern is to give it too much credence.

I'm retiring in May after 42 years of teaching high schoolers.

My last 10 have been in inner-city Denver where the expectation of the Power Elites is that my black and brown students will be content to be metaphorical hewers of wood and drawers of water.

Not on my watch!

Our #1 is going to Columbia, and our #2 is going to Stanford. The revolution is just beginning.

My guiding light, ever since it was published has been Teaching as a Subversive Activity.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on March 08, 2008, 05:45:13 PM
The day they figure out that they are the true power in any and every school but a lock-down facility is the day that the modern educational system dies.



Ah, well, then, let's hasten the day.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on March 08, 2008, 08:07:02 PM
Ut,

Ah, well, then, let's hasten the day.

I'm in!! :)

With you from the right and me from the left, the status quo cannot hold.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 08, 2008, 08:17:23 PM
OK, guys,

Figure out how you will carry out your mission from your wheelchairs? Or, wait, let everything temp you to occupy your time and skills, and do teach differently, like write for children, teach online, or whatever. We need to help out those who will follow us, for the chldren's sake!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 21, 2008, 06:24:02 AM
My heart is heavy this morning.

Just before bed, I got an email from my sister telling that her autistic son Andrew was hospitalized a week ago and they've been scrambling to get the right help for him to transition him from living at home to being institutionalized. We've all known this day would come. Andrew is now 17, and a very large young man. His violent episodes have seriously injured his parents, his sibling, and those who provide him with care. Supposedly, the just can't find the right meds for him. All the meds that are supposed to reduce the violence have the side effect of increasing the violence.

Life with Andrew has always been a struggle, but both parents have been strongly committed to keeping him at home and dealing with his disorder. The education system has often made it clear that they do not want to serve children like Andrew. He was 12 and still couldn't read, when Chris decided to home school him. It was working well until he needed another med change and the violence resulted in her getting beaten up. Then the school sent a homebound teacher and some aides to keep him occupied so Chris could heal. After a year of searching, a school was found that was willing to take him without promising abuse. After school he had an aide come in so that Chris could make dinner and do the household things after her day of work.

Idon't have any answers. I know much about autism, but little about how to treat/deal with it. But. with autism on the rise, someone needs to put together realistic resources to help the parents keep their children at home as long as possible. And, the services should be streamlined so that both parents don't end up giving up on careers to care for their child.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: madupont on March 28, 2008, 06:50:53 PM
Ground-Breaking Cases Demonstrate Need to Protect Student's Right to a Quality Education

Two groundbreaking lawsuits recently filed by the ACLU demonstrate a disturbing national trend called the "school to prison pipeline," wherein children are funneled out of public schools and into the juvenile and criminal justice systems.

In Palm Beach County, Florida, the ACLU has charged that the School District violated its students’ constitutional right to a high quality education. It’s estimated that as many as one in three Palm Beach County students does not graduate on time with a regular diploma, which is well below both the state and national averages.

This case is the first legal challenge in the country that focuses on the issue of low graduation rates and that requires a school district to graduate more of its students. Further, there is a significant disparity between the graduation rates of African-American and Hispanic students and those of white students. The stark difference in graduation rates along racial lines is strong evidence of the school district’s failure to satisfy its obligations. The lawsuit, however, aims to improve the graduation rates for all students enrolled in Palm Beach County.

And in another case with national implications, the ACLU filed a lawsuit against Atlanta Independent School System (AISS) and Community Education Partners (CEP) for violating students’ constitutional right to an adequate public education. CEP is a for-profit corporation paid nearly $7 million a year by the city to run its alternative school, which is among the most dangerous and lowest performing schools in Georgia.

The education practices at the AISS-CEP school range from the bizarre to the blatantly unconstitutional. For example, the school has a “no homework” policy and also prohibits students from taking supplies home including books; AISS-CEP has no cafeteria, no gym and no library; students are subjected to full body pat-down searches every day; and watches, jewelry, purses, combs, brushes, keys, and money in excess of five dollars are all considered contraband and are strictly prohibited — girls are not permitted even to bring tampons into the building.

“Parents and taxpayers deserve better than a system that simply funnels their children through a pathway to prison,” said Reggie Shuford, a senior staff attorney with the ACLU Racial Justice Program. “It would be a stretch to even call this a school since there is little to no academic instruction and its students are treated like criminals it is nothing more than a warehouse largely for poor children of color.”

>> Learn more about the “school to prison pipeline” and what the ACLU is doing to curb it.

http://www.aclu.org/crimjustice/juv/schooltoprisonpipeline.html

http://www.aclu.org/crimjustice/juv/28363res20060328.html


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 28, 2008, 07:45:10 PM
Maddie,

It's fairly easy to raise the graduation rate of a school district, lower the requirements for graduation. That allows more students to graduate. Another way to increase graduation would be to allow 5-6 years to complete high school, and some (not a lot) will stay until they finish.

But, I would not take the side of ACLU that the failure of many children to graduate shows that the school system is "not doing their job". First of all, does the school system have the resources to "do the job", or are they trying to get by without necessary tools for instruction?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: Lhoffman on March 28, 2008, 09:09:01 PM
Lower the requirements....Our children need to be prepared to compete on a global level.  To do that, they need to be proficient in science, math, language.  But even if this weren't so, we can't afford to lower our expectations for our children.  If you do that, you are simply passing the problem on to colleges and employers. 

Instead of lowering standards, raise them.  Start with sports.  If a kid can't maintain a B- or better average, he ought not to be allowed to compete.  And yes, I know that parents will raise a major fuss and the story will be that the only thing that keeps the kid in school is sports.  Well, then parent ought to make the child understand that if sports means that much to him, then he needs to work harder at school work.  A child will be far worse off not getting a good education than not being allowed to play sports.  I always find it interesting that parents have plenty to say about teachers assigning too much homework, but never criticize sports coaches who schedule practices and games seven days a week.

Organize mentoring and tutoring programs involving local businesses and parents.  The more one-to-one in a school, the higher the odds of success.

Teach parents and children about nutrition.  The brain really doesn't function well on pop-tarts.  Most districts offer breakfast and lunch to students, and in low income areas, these are federally funded or subsidized.  Informed and active parents can work with school food programs to get high fat and sugar content out of their cafeterias.

Most school districts offer a health curriculum.  This curriculum should provide information on contraceptives in their high school health classes.  It is not the public school's job to teach values when it comes to sexual behavior.  It is their job to make certain that every child has the best possible chance of achieving her goals and an unplanned pregnancy severely lessens a teen's options. 

Some states tie driving privileges to school attendence.  Drop-outs don't get licenses until they are 18. 

 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 28, 2008, 10:07:41 PM
Laurie,

Have you ever worked with a student who could not achieve even with one-on-one help? How many times does baby have to spit back the mashed avocado before you realize baby is not going to eat it!

The students I had whose adult lives I sometimes get a peek into, were not students who achieved at grade level, or met high or higher expectations in order to graduate. One of my students was dead last in his class. But, they are, at least those I hear about, being successful, supporting families, taking on responsibilities at work, and so forth.

Now, I do not say to lower expectations on the kids who can function at a higher level than their peers, and I am not saying to lower what you do for the bulk, the average kids, but do make sure that you have in place available alternative routes to graduation for those young people who are academically challenged in any way.

BTW, Virginia does have state-wide rules in place to require a minimum grade of C in any class before or during the "season", in order to qualify to play. I've also seen those rules used to push teachers to give higher grades than earned. Some parents resent ANY homework, because they see it as an intrusion into THEIR time with their child.

What I see of kids in the malls, I'd suggest they need MORE exercise, practice time, etc., rather than LESS. Academics are important -- but I think you (and some other educators) put academics in a higher place than many other people do.

I think it was Robert, probably on Campaign Trail, who put is so succinctly - he discredited all of Obama's time as an student, scholar & educator as "just in academics" and not to be considered knowledge or experience to direct his future presidency. Academics is just one ball on the christmas tree of life!




Title: Re: Education
Post by: Lhoffman on March 28, 2008, 11:55:33 PM
Anne...I know that all children are not going to succeed.  (That is one of the problems I have with NCLB that ties funding to success on standardized tests.) And I know that all children are not college bound  (which is why we need trade schools....)

I do feel that it is important for all children to work hard in school, and to graduate high school whether or not they decide to go to college.  Working hard prepares students to work hard at their jobs.  Employers expect their employees to do the jobs they are hired for....they really aren't interested in excuses and if one person can't do the job there is always another who can.   Working for the diploma teaches kids how to learn....also helpful on the job, and it teaches them self-discipline. 

The kid you mention who was last in his class, what is his job?  Is it local or global?   As time passes, the world will continue to become smaller and  there will be less locally oriented jobs.  In my area, kids with high school degrees or less used to be able to get jobs in GM or work in gas stations.  Now GM is hiring college educated people to work the line, and the local gas stations are owned by Middle Eastern immigrants and staffed by their families.







 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 29, 2008, 06:38:55 AM
Laurie,

That fellow is one that I don't know what he is doing now. In high school, he was a rather successful drug dealer, so I suspect that is what he went into after graduation. I have not heard that he is in prison, so, unless he was caught out of state, he may be successful in his trade.

There is a lot of good that comes from sticking it out in school until graduation, but it can be too steep a hill for some to climb.

I'm inclined to believe that one of the reasons for so much immigration of people with minimal skills is due to the fact that those jobs are left untaken by those whose lack of schooling would make them a good fit for the job.

Most of my students who have been successful have done so on a local basis. They have found their way into responsible jobs that have little or no global anything to them. Globalization may be the wave of the future, but there are still plenty of jobs around locally that need to be filled. This may not be as apparent in Michigan as in other places.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on March 30, 2008, 04:37:42 PM
Ground-Breaking Cases Demonstrate Need to Protect Student's Right to a Quality Education

Two groundbreaking lawsuits recently filed by the ACLU demonstrate a disturbing national trend called the "school to prison pipeline," wherein children are funneled out of public schools and into the juvenile and criminal justice systems.

In Palm Beach County, Florida, the ACLU has charged that the School District violated its students’ constitutional right to a high quality education. It’s estimated that as many as one in three Palm Beach County students does not graduate on time with a regular diploma, which is well below both the state and national averages.

This case is the first legal challenge in the country that focuses on the issue of low graduation rates and that requires a school district to graduate more of its students. Further, there is a significant disparity between the graduation rates of African-American and Hispanic students and those of white students. The stark difference in graduation rates along racial lines is strong evidence of the school district’s failure to satisfy its obligations. The lawsuit, however, aims to improve the graduation rates for all students enrolled in Palm Beach County.

And in another case with national implications, the ACLU filed a lawsuit against Atlanta Independent School System (AISS) and Community Education Partners (CEP) for violating students’ constitutional right to an adequate public education. CEP is a for-profit corporation paid nearly $7 million a year by the city to run its alternative school, which is among the most dangerous and lowest performing schools in Georgia.

The education practices at the AISS-CEP school range from the bizarre to the blatantly unconstitutional. For example, the school has a “no homework” policy and also prohibits students from taking supplies home including books; AISS-CEP has no cafeteria, no gym and no library; students are subjected to full body pat-down searches every day; and watches, jewelry, purses, combs, brushes, keys, and money in excess of five dollars are all considered contraband and are strictly prohibited — girls are not permitted even to bring tampons into the building.

“Parents and taxpayers deserve better than a system that simply funnels their children through a pathway to prison,” said Reggie Shuford, a senior staff attorney with the ACLU Racial Justice Program. “It would be a stretch to even call this a school since there is little to no academic instruction and its students are treated like criminals it is nothing more than a warehouse largely for poor children of color.”

>> Learn more about the “school to prison pipeline” and what the ACLU is doing to curb it.

http://www.aclu.org/crimjustice/juv/schooltoprisonpipeline.html

http://www.aclu.org/crimjustice/juv/28363res20060328.html


Sue your parents, first, you lazy bastards.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 30, 2008, 04:53:39 PM
Utley,

Parents these days are so prone to tell their kids what they don't HAVE TO do, that schools are at a loss to get kids to do what needs to be done to learn. Learning is work - it requires effort. 

If alternative schools exist because regular schools are tired of dealing with kids (and parents) who are more concerned with bucking the system than in getting an education.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on March 30, 2008, 07:27:47 PM
Utley,

Parents these days are so prone to tell their kids what they don't HAVE TO do, that schools are at a loss to get kids to do what needs to be done to learn. Learning is work - it requires effort. 

If alternative schools exist because regular schools are tired of dealing with kids (and parents) who are more concerned with bucking the system than in getting an education.

Alternative schools have existed for decades, Anne - for kids who do not fit. It was not then and often is not now because the schools are tired of the kids bucking the system, but more because the kids wanted an education, but the school was getting in their way.

Yes, there are other alternative programs out there for other reasons like the violent kids - but it is only part of the story.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 30, 2008, 07:37:28 PM
Josh,

Over the decades, the term "alternative" school has taken on many meanings. The one I cited, for the students who just can't get rules around their heads, is one I am familiar with because I worked there at the end of my teaching career. The students from five counties who had been put out of the regular schools were sent to this facility. There were a few there who wanted to learn, but by and large most of them were there because it was the only place they could be legally. Virginia law requires students to remain in a school until they either graduate or turn 18.

But, you are right that this is not the only meaning of the term "alternative" school. From time to time there have been experiements with schools intended to educate the hard-to-educate but bright students. I have not ever seen an "alternative" school so named because it was providing a superior educational opportunity to the traditional school. Your experience may vary.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on March 30, 2008, 08:15:57 PM
Josh,

Over the decades, the term "alternative" school has taken on many meanings. The one I cited, for the students who just can't get rules around their heads, is one I am familiar with because I worked there at the end of my teaching career. The students from five counties who had been put out of the regular schools were sent to this facility. There were a few there who wanted to learn, but by and large most of them were there because it was the only place they could be legally. Virginia law requires students to remain in a school until they either graduate or turn 18.

But, you are right that this is not the only meaning of the term "alternative" school. From time to time there have been experiements with schools intended to educate the hard-to-educate but bright students. I have not ever seen an "alternative" school so named because it was providing a superior educational opportunity to the traditional school. Your experience may vary.

"From time to time" is for as long as the other type - alternative schools for those dissatisfied with the 'system' have been around for more than 100 years.

And... "superior educational opportunity" for whom?! I can assure you that for the kids who were suicidal from the insanity of the regular schools and how they were treated there, a school that allowed them to breathe, to survive, and even to thrive was far superior to the dead end "opportunity" presented by the "government schools."

They were not hard to educate, Anne. They were hard to train. Spirited kids often are.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 30, 2008, 08:31:24 PM
Josh,

I assume you know about these schools because you attended or taught at them?

Please tell me more about the methods used to educate these students.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on March 30, 2008, 09:08:07 PM
Josh,

I assume you know about these schools because you attended or taught at them?

Please tell me more about the methods used to educate these students.

Well, to save myself some time, let's start with a simple question:

Have you read Summerhill? Or, if not, are you at least familiar with it?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 30, 2008, 10:03:42 PM
Josh,

I've heard of Summerhill and just read the front of their website to re-acquaint myself with it.

What are the specific problems in public schools that need a boarding school in an idyllic setting as a solution?

I am trying to remember something I read years ago last time someone brought up Summerhill. Something to the effect that the students from Summerhill have not necessarily enjoyed "success" in life in a material sense, but are very happy in their  adults lives. As compared to whom, I don't know.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on March 30, 2008, 10:49:41 PM
Josh,

I've heard of Summerhill and just read the front of their website to re-acquaint myself with it.

What are the specific problems in public schools that need a boarding school in an idyllic setting as a solution?

I am trying to remember something I read years ago last time someone brought up Summerhill. Something to the effect that the students from Summerhill have not necessarily enjoyed "success" in life in a material sense, but are very happy in their  adults lives. As compared to whom, I don't know.


It was not the setting, per se, that was the goal of the question - it was the goals and intentions of it. I personally think there are some major problems with Summerhill or - in this country, the Sudbury Valley model, as it is known. But there are major pluses, as well.

The Sudbury Valley model is comparatively new, as alternative education goes - only 45 or so years old. SVS is a fully democratic school in which the youngest student as equal vote with the oldest staff member in 'town meeting' and the determination of school decisions. Nobody tries to require the students to learn anything they don't express a desire to learn. It runs from about 4 through age 19, if I am not mistaken.

The major thing that many alternative high schools offer that most public high schools don't is active emotional support and close attention to students' needs - whether those needs be divergence, pacing differences, product differences, etc. There tends to be far more flex and far less effort to force the student to fit into a pre-set mold.

Most of them have a higher signal-to-noise ratio, with a lot less busy work - because with smaller numbers the teachers can accommodate individualization to a greater degree. The funny thing is that with work that is more tuned to what the students do and do not know, there are fewer behavioral issues and fewer emotional issues than when there is conflict between the students' needs and what the school is providing.

There are many types of alternative schools - some of which have nothing to do with what I am describing. Once upon a time, Montessori was considered alternative. Waldorf, Reggio Emilia, and many other theories have been brought into being as alternatives. So, too, the notion of alternative schools for the behaviorally challenged. It was probably some 30 years ago or so that Accelerated Schools, Inc. developed their curriculum for such an alternative school - they brought in the hard case discipline kids and gang leaders, and they taught them - they taught them faster than the regular schools go, by far.

And often, it worked. The kids learned. Perfect? Hardly - but better than "the alternative."


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 30, 2008, 11:30:14 PM
Josh,

What are the success statistics on these schools? How is success measured? Was there a control group used somewhere for a comparison?

Small classes and more emotional support in the building both sound like good things to me. We do that in special ed as much as the funding and admins permit.

But funding is the big buggaboo. Suburban schools, which are typically well-financed, are moving in the direction of smaller classes for the lower grades, but they often have high school class sizes as great as 30-35.

I have worked in both block schedule schools a regular schedule, and there is a noticeable decline in stress both on students and staff under block scheduling. But, I have not seen any long-term studies that show that the students retain the learning from block scheduling as long/longer/less long than from the traditional schedule.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on March 30, 2008, 11:56:43 PM
Josh,

What are the success statistics on these schools? How is success measured? Was there a control group used somewhere for a comparison?


Oh, Anne. This is education. We don't do consistent, replicable, meaningful research! That would be cheating.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 31, 2008, 05:41:29 AM
Josh,

Actually, it is in education that I have learned to ask what the measured out comes are because so many programs are proposed by theorists who feel no compunction to compile statistics. In studying a program, I tend to read the theories first, then look at the outcome statistics and see if they support the theory. I even conducted research with my own methods and examined them every year to see how we were progressing.

So, if you are talking about educational theories that do not include outcome statistics, you are talking about an area of education that is alien to me.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on March 31, 2008, 07:01:18 AM
Anne,

So, if you are talking about educational theories that do not include outcome statistics, you are talking about an area of education that is alien to me.


Statistics are fine, but by no means do they tell anyone the complete story.

We are currently in an era of education when "if it's not measurable, it's not valid."

We're developing a generation of young people who think that Gradgrind's description of a horse is perfectly adequate.

What happened to the most important parts of education - respect for the system, knowledge of how to work within it to bring change, adherence to the principles of the Constitution, personal growth - all the things that going into creating good Americans.

I'm retiring in two months after 42 years of teaching high school, so I won't be around to see it, but I know that, before too very long, we will be returning to the concept of holisitic grading.

A child is far more than a series of test scores.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on March 31, 2008, 07:25:14 AM
Cap,

What you say is correct. But, in researching methods, I always like to see something that indicate an outcome. So often, when I had to critique articles in special ed journals, I was confronted with methods which promised the world, but included no evidence of outcome. Sometimes, if the theories seemed valid, I would give them a try and compile my own stats on outcome.

Testing for outcome of a method is far different from the NCLB testing to see how well a school overall is operating. These tests do not distinguish the validity of methods and programs unless they are school-wide. School-wide methods and programs are a problem since no prior examination to determine which students actually benefit from the approach and which students would do better with some other method.

When I was critiquing those article, I was dismayed to see how often a journal published a paper in which the statistics and the conclusion were not in sync.

I do feel that teachers should be free to choose methods and determine for themselves which work and for which students. But, I really think that the choice must reside in the teacher, who knows who sits in front of him/her, rather than the choice of the admins who then make rules that prevent teachers who find the admin's selection of methods to be unsuitable for their students, to make a change to a better matched method.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on April 07, 2008, 05:49:02 PM
For those with an interest in quality education, I suggest reading the article:

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/04/07/richard-rothstein/a-nation-at-risk-twenty-five-years-later/

The article looks at the misperceptions included in a Nation at Risk, looks back to the earlier Coleman Report, and then fast-forwards to the stupidity of the thinking behind NCLB and how that legislation has undermined the real issues in education.

I also like the comments in the article about the growth in productivity that did NOT reward those who worked harder, better, and faster, but only the top gurus in the industries. Producing more without getting a raise puts to the lie the fact that education was depressing productivity and hence the average paycheck.



Title: Going Commercial
Post by: weezo on April 24, 2008, 06:28:51 PM
Laurie and all,

I finally took the plung and have included ads for certain educational services on some of my webpages. It has always been my intent to keep the website free to users, and free of commercials, but I got an offer I could not turn down. They funds will buy software I need to do more with the pages


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on April 27, 2008, 05:56:31 PM
No Child Left Behind - Basketball Version

The basketball version of what is going on in education right now.

For all educators in and out of the education system:

1. All teams must make the state playoffs and all MUST win the
championship. If a team does not win the championship, they will be on probation until they are the champions, and coaches will be held
accountable. If after two years they have not won the championship their basketballs and equipment will be taken away UNTIL they do win the championship.

2. All kids will be expected to have the same basketball skills at the
same time, even if they do not have the same conditions or opportunities to practice on their own. NO exceptions will be made for lack of interest in basketball, a desire to perform athletically, or genetic
abilities or disabilities of themselves or their parents. ALL KIDS WILL
PLAY BASKETBALL AT A PROFICIENT LEVEL!

3. Talented players will be asked to workout on their own, without
instruction. This is because the coaches will be using all their
instructional time with the athletes who aren't interested in
basketball, have limited athletic ability or whose parents don't like
basketball!

4. Games will be played year round, but statistics will only be kept in
the 4th, 8th, and 11th games. This will create a New Age of Sports where every school is expected to have the same level of talent and all teams will reach the same minimum goals. If no child gets ahead, then no child gets left behind. If parents do not like this new law, they are
encouraged to vote for vouchers and support private schools that can
screen out the non-athletes and prevent their children from having to go to school with bad basketball players.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on April 27, 2008, 10:42:16 PM
No Child Left Behind - Basketball Version


Is this yours?

If so, may I share it elsewhere?

If not, may I know the source?

Thanks!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on April 28, 2008, 05:19:53 AM
No Child Left Behind - Basketball Version


Is this yours?

If so, may I share it elsewhere?

If not, may I know the source?

Thanks!

Friend sent in an e-mail, but it's been around for a few years because I've seen it before.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on April 28, 2008, 02:05:23 PM
When teachers go wild on-line:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/27/AR2008042702213.html?hpid=topnews


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on April 28, 2008, 04:50:27 PM
Josh,

If not, may I know the source?


In reality, it's a weak parody of Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 06, 2008, 07:40:07 PM
The question of homework

I tend to agree that the value of homework stands unproven. Yet many schools and districts believe is has disciplinary value and perhaps gives kids something to do after school besides shuck and jive or play video games. Some schools demand a certain amount of homework.

Except for the times when I was in a school that insisted on x minutes/hours of homework per night, the only homework I assigned was for a student to complete classwork that they had not done in class (but could have and should have, but opted out for some reason), or to study for the weekly test. '

My first year, I tried homework. It didn't seem to make a difference if the kids did homework or not. I had a class of 8th graders, and they were notorious for not doing homework. So, I set a standard. If a student did not bring in homework, they had to tell the story why they did not have it. They could not repeat any story they, or anyone in the small class had already used. The result of not doing homework was more beneficial in developing creativity and oral skills than if they had done the grammar exercises.

Writing reports, doing projects, and other creative things are good types of "homework". Doing a page of math problems that the child didn't master in class is not helpful.


Title: Low Test Scores= High Economic Achievment
Post by: weezo on June 07, 2008, 10:56:47 PM
Yes, that's what the man says. Read it -- then burn the tests!

http://ednews.org:80/articles/26201/1/America-had-the-worlds-best-school-system/Page1.html


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 08, 2008, 08:56:24 PM
The question of homework

I tend to agree that the value of homework stands unproven. Yet many schools and districts believe is has disciplinary value and perhaps gives kids something to do after school besides shuck and jive or play video games. Some schools demand a certain amount of homework.

Except for the times when I was in a school that insisted on x minutes/hours of homework per night, the only homework I assigned was for a student to complete classwork that they had not done in class (but could have and should have, but opted out for some reason), or to study for the weekly test. '

My first year, I tried homework. It didn't seem to make a difference if the kids did homework or not. I had a class of 8th graders, and they were notorious for not doing homework. So, I set a standard. If a student did not bring in homework, they had to tell the story why they did not have it. They could not repeat any story they, or anyone in the small class had already used. The result of not doing homework was more beneficial in developing creativity and oral skills than if they had done the grammar exercises.

Writing reports, doing projects, and other creative things are good types of "homework". Doing a page of math problems that the child didn't master in class is not helpful.

It's not something you can agree or disagree with, it's a fact. There is no proof that homework improves achievement in school for children in grades k-8.

The rest is bullshit.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 08, 2008, 09:03:12 PM
Utley,

How did they study this? What method, model, size of sample, date of study, professionalism of studiers, etc? What type/s of homework were studied?





Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 08, 2008, 09:56:59 PM
Utley,

How did they study this? What method, model, size of sample, date of study, professionalism of studiers, etc? What type/s of homework were studied?

Anne -

this is something that has been studied dozens of times in dozens of ways over the last 20 years. Most recently, a Duke prof has been carrying the water on this issue, arguing not for NO homework, but for sharply curtailed limits.

Look up Harris Cooper.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 08, 2008, 10:36:31 PM
Josh,

May check it out later. Right now I am up to my ears in revising the website since school is out for the year.

I can see curtailed limits. And, I can see personalized homework. I can also see benefits of letting parents know what kids are doing in school. I can see the value of "homework" that takes more than one night to do, such as projects and reports. I do not see any value in giving kids busy-work, whether as homework or in the classroom. A picture to color is better! I've got a collection of coloring pictures of each of the US presidents, and another set of many animals. Either would make a good homework activity.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 08, 2008, 11:55:32 PM
Josh,

May check it out later. Right now I am up to my ears in revising the website since school is out for the year.

I can see curtailed limits. And, I can see personalized homework. I can also see benefits of letting parents know what kids are doing in school. I can see the value of "homework" that takes more than one night to do, such as projects and reports. I do not see any value in giving kids busy-work, whether as homework or in the classroom. A picture to color is better! I've got a collection of coloring pictures of each of the US presidents, and another set of many animals. Either would make a good homework activity.


Either of those would have been busy work, and frustrating busy work at that.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 09, 2008, 06:26:10 AM
Josh,

Why do you think that a coloring picture related to studies is busy work? Perhaps we are not talking about the same age group. I was thinking of the children still young enough to enjoy coloring. If they are learning about the presidents in class, coloring a picture on one of their choice would be, I think, a nice homework assignment. Same with coloring animals if they are learning about different animals in science.

Perhaps you feel that grading a coloring assignment is unproductive, but it is an indication of the maturity of small hand muscles to stay in the lines, and a creative outlet to choose the colors whether or not they are realistic.

When I taught computers to the K-2 crowd, coloring pictures were a real plus. The kids enjoyed coloring online, and also printing out picture to color. On the major holidays, I often printed and copied a number of pictures for the season and let the children choose which to take with them as they left the lab. That is the reason I began to collect coloring pictures for my website. And, they are popular and frequently used so others must agree.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 09, 2008, 06:38:03 AM
Anne: Read this book.

http://www.alfiekohn.org/books/hm.htm



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 09, 2008, 06:38:51 AM
At least read this article:

http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/homework.htm


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 09, 2008, 06:52:53 AM
Utley,

Good article. I'd buy the book if I needed to convince someone on my job, but since that isn't the case anymore, I'll pass. The article summarized the situation in the way I think about students - as individual learners with individual needs.

Thanks for proving your assertions about homework.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 09, 2008, 09:40:28 AM
Josh,

Why do you think that a coloring picture related to studies is busy work? Perhaps we are not talking about the same age group. I was thinking of the children still young enough to enjoy coloring. If they are learning about the presidents in class, coloring a picture on one of their choice would be, I think, a nice homework assignment. Same with coloring animals if they are learning about different animals in science.

Perhaps you feel that grading a coloring assignment is unproductive, but it is an indication of the maturity of small hand muscles to stay in the lines, and a creative outlet to choose the colors whether or not they are realistic.

When I taught computers to the K-2 crowd, coloring pictures were a real plus. The kids enjoyed coloring online, and also printing out picture to color. On the major holidays, I often printed and copied a number of pictures for the season and let the children choose which to take with them as they left the lab. That is the reason I began to collect coloring pictures for my website. And, they are popular and frequently used so others must agree.

I neglected a key phrase: "For me."

Some children are not old enough to enjoy coloring, I guess. My ability to stay inside the lines, whether in behavior, topic, or drawing, as an early elementary student or as a secondary student was always questionable at best. Until this past school season, I had drawn a total of two drawings that came out recognizably as what I had intended - and not because I had not trued and not because I had not taken art classes, both in school and out. I could not draw - and writing was not exactly a joy either. The eye-hand coordination was such that my folks hauled me off for testing at one point, but evidently my results were just confusing rather than indicative of a specific issue.

Compound that with the fact that, when given flowers to draw, for example, I wanted to know about the pistol and the stamen and the cellular structure and nobody would discuss that with me had I brought my carefully drawn homework in, and you get frustration coming and going.

Yes, I believe that many others agree with you, Anne. But, while the fact that something is popularly done does not make it a bad thing necessarily, neither does it perforce make it a good one.

Finally... I don't actually know that I think those are good homework assignments, even for those for whom drawing is a pleasure. What is the goal of homework, Anne?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 09, 2008, 10:04:59 AM
josh: Are you familiar with Assessment for Learning?

Dillon and Black's work in the UK? Or RJ Stiggins work in this area?

I think there is where you'll find your radical change that is needed in schools!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 09, 2008, 10:09:05 AM
This is a long article, but worth reading:

http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbla9810.htm


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 09, 2008, 12:15:56 PM
Josh,

I understand now why you considering coloring a page busywork and a waste of time. I would have been such for you. That is why I said that homework should be individualized - personalized to each student.

The purpose of the coloring pages is to learn the details from the picture. A child who has colored a well-drawn picture of a president is more likely to recognize that person in other pictures - if they have a reasonable sense of picture.

I have a very good friend who has no "mind's eye". He cannot picture anything in his mind. When he thinks he thinks in words and sounds. He has done studies on the differences in how people "picture" things in their minds, distinguishing between those who picture in pictures, color, B/W, or in words they read inside their brains, or in sound. Think about this, if a song is running through your head, who is singing it? The person who recorded the song, or are you the singer? Think about when you read a story. Do you have pictures in your brain of the action? Are they moving pictures (movies)? Still pictures? Are they in color or in black and white? Are they detailed, or someone fuzzy and in a fog?

Bob came to visit my schools in Virginia a number of times over our years of working together, and spoke both to teachers and my students about the variations in how people think. I remember one time when he was talking to the teachers at Nottoway, and explained he could not make pictures in his mind about what he was reading, and one teacher, who puzzled over this for a while finally blurted out, "Well, how do you comprehend what you read, then".

Popularity does not indicate that something is good for kids, but it does tend to indicate that children enjoy coloring pictures and it may indicate that they learn something from the experience, and that adults who d/l the pictures for or with them, feel they get something from the experience.

It is a bit foolish to dismiss a means of learning for some/many children just because it was not effective for you. That is the same as the problem I often encountered in talking to people about learning styles who said, "xxx method worked for me, and I feel it is the best way for everyone to learn." That is the attitude that foists phonics on children who do not learn best from a study of the sounds of letters. The hard evidence is that no more than 80% of children can learn by phonics at all, and a lower percentage are those who learn best by phonics.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 09, 2008, 01:25:18 PM
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=AP&date=20080609&id=8747938

BTW, it's 89 in my classroom, as I write this.

Friggin' hot.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: Donotremove on June 09, 2008, 02:28:42 PM
There is an article about how Sandra Day O'Conner is setting up a web site that teaches Civics and Government using both text and game playing.  Sorry I didn't copy the link, but look in the NYTimes under Education in today's online issue.  Interesting that NCLB has caused the dropping of civics and government as subjects taught in middle school/high school.

Utley, when I went to 1-12 (no kindergarten then) there was no air conditioning.  I don't remember being uncomfortable, which doesn't mean that I wasn't, just that I don't remember it. The only air conditioning I remember for back then was at Walgreen drug stores "It's Cool Inside."  Heaven to go in there and sit at the counter and sip a Coke.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 09, 2008, 02:35:17 PM
The purpose of the coloring pages is to learn the details from the picture. A child who has colored a well-drawn picture of a president is more likely to recognize that person in other pictures - if they have a reasonable sense of picture.

I have a very good friend who has no "mind's eye". He cannot picture anything in his mind. When he thinks he thinks in words and sounds. He has done studies on the differences in how people "picture" things in their minds, distinguishing between those who picture in pictures, color, B/W, or in words they read inside their brains, or in sound. Think about this, if a song is running through your head, who is singing it? The person who recorded the song, or are you the singer? Think about when you read a story. Do you have pictures in your brain of the action? Are they moving pictures (movies)? Still pictures? Are they in color or in black and white? Are they detailed, or someone fuzzy and in a fog?

Bob came to visit my schools in Virginia a number of times over our years of working together, and spoke both to teachers and my students about the variations in how people think. I remember one time when he was talking to the teachers at Nottoway, and explained he could not make pictures in his mind about what he was reading, and one teacher, who puzzled over this for a while finally blurted out, "Well, how do you comprehend what you read, then".

Popularity does not indicate that something is good for kids, but it does tend to indicate that children enjoy coloring pictures and it may indicate that they learn something from the experience, and that adults who d/l the pictures for or with them, feel they get something from the experience.

It is a bit foolish to dismiss a means of learning for some/many children just because it was not effective for you. That is the same as the problem I often encountered in talking to people about learning styles who said, "xxx method worked for me, and I feel it is the best way for everyone to learn." That is the attitude that foists phonics on children who do not learn best from a study of the sounds of letters. The hard evidence is that no more than 80% of children can learn by phonics at all, and a lower percentage are those who learn best by phonics.

Popularity does indicate that children enjoy coloring pictures. It certainly suggests that the downloaders feel that the children will get something from the experience!

How you get from there to "it may indicate that they learn something from the experience" is beyond my ken.

Quote
The purpose of the coloring pages is to learn the details from the picture. A child who has colored a well-drawn picture of a president is more likely to recognize that person in other pictures - if they have a reasonable sense of picture.

1) Beyond your own personal (and valuable) experience, do you have any studies that suggest that about drawing vs. recognition? I know I haven't seen any studies one way or the other on it. (I have seen studies that suggest that labeling maps has such an effect, at times - though not that coloring them made things better.)

2) How did you determine if somebody had a reasonable sense of picture or not, prior to giving such an assignment?

I would love to talk with your friend Bob, and/or to read some of his work. It sounds like it dovetails nicely with some of mine from the other side. And the question the teacher asked him lines up with my interaction of asking a team member if she thought in pictures: "Well, of course... (and she paused) Why? What do you think in?!"

Coming back to my two reactions to drawing pictures as homework:

1) You comment that it would be foolish to dismiss a means of learning just because it was ineffective for one. Please note that in my post explaining stating that I thought drawing homework would be frustrating and a waste of time, that I explicitly had meant to say "for me." I was not saying that it would be a frustrating waste of time for everybody.

2) It is unclear to me that drawing pictures of, for the sake of the discussion, presidents is a means of learning. I am not insisting it isn't. But that was not really the heart of my question to you at the end of my latter post on the topic. I asked you what the purpose of homework is, not what the purpose of drawing a president is.

Finally, you make an analogy between dismissing something as effective because it does not work for one and the imposition of phonics.

These are not the same mindsets, though they are related. One is the assumption that what works for one will work for all. The other is the assumption that what does not work for one will not work for any. The latter has a slightly higher chance of being true, but neither is something I would bet the farm on.

I am not insisting that drawing the president, the flowers, or the Taj Mahal has no utility in a classroom. I am not even insisting that it has no utility as homework, though given my doubts about the utility of homework coupled with my knowing explicitly the negative impact such assignments can have I certainly have my reservations about it. I am asking what you think the purpose of homework is.

See the next post, on the subject of individualization.


Title: On Individualization
Post by: josh on June 09, 2008, 02:38:38 PM
As a deeply committed individualizer/differentiator in classroom instruction, homework has always been one of the biggest areas of conflict.

If I have a student whom I know gets nothing out of doing homework, assuming he ever does it at all, which is seldom, at best, why should I continue to assign it to him? How does making him feel bad and setting him up for conflict with parents further his educational or personal growth?

If I do not assign him homework, then the other students, inevitably, complain that they have to and he doesn't. This particular debate bothers me far less. I know how to handle it! But it is still there.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 09, 2008, 03:23:53 PM
There is an article about how Sandra Day O'Conner is setting up a web site that teaches Civics and Government using both text and game playing.  Sorry I didn't copy the link, but look in the NYTimes under Education in today's online issue.  Interesting that NCLB has caused the dropping of civics and government as subjects taught in middle school/high school.

Utley, when I went to 1-12 (no kindergarten then) there was no air conditioning.  I don't remember being uncomfortable, which doesn't mean that I wasn't, just that I don't remember it. The only air conditioning I remember for back then was at Walgreen drug stores "It's Cool Inside."  Heaven to go in there and sit at the counter and sip a Coke.

I'm fine with it. It's the kids who have parents picking them early from school who can't handle it.


Title: Re: On Individualization
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 09, 2008, 03:25:40 PM
As a deeply committed individualizer/differentiator in classroom instruction, homework has always been one of the biggest areas of conflict.

If I have a student whom I know gets nothing out of doing homework, assuming he ever does it at all, which is seldom, at best, why should I continue to assign it to him? How does making him feel bad and setting him up for conflict with parents further his educational or personal growth?

If I do not assign him homework, then the other students, inevitably, complain that they have to and he doesn't. This particular debate bothers me far less. I know how to handle it! But it is still there.

So, what is your criteria for qualifying for no homework?


Title: Re: On Individualization
Post by: weezo on June 09, 2008, 05:51:33 PM
As a deeply committed individualizer/differentiator in classroom instruction, homework has always been one of the biggest areas of conflict.

If I have a student whom I know gets nothing out of doing homework, assuming he ever does it at all, which is seldom, at best, why should I continue to assign it to him? How does making him feel bad and setting him up for conflict with parents further his educational or personal growth?

If I do not assign him homework, then the other students, inevitably, complain that they have to and he doesn't. This particular debate bothers me far less. I know how to handle it! But it is still there.

Josh,

I started to reply to this and learned that the webpage where I had an instrument that may be of help to you has been pulled down. Fortunately, I had it backed up, so moved it to EdSynth. You may want to look at all (the essay on learning styles is incomplete, ignore it), at: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/mrsp/assessment/
but what I had in mind to give you some sense of how the kids learn individually is the Environmental Survey. It is a simplified version of Rita Dunn's Learning Styles Assessment, which I did work for her years ago and came to know rather well. I'm not sure how helpful it would be to know the hemispheric preferences of your students, but there are two assessments listed as HemLem.

I will write you a personal message on how to reach Bob. He can tell you where is stuff is. Or you can just google for Dr. Robert Zenhausern on St. John's University site. I don't think they have taken it down. If so, you will need to write him He would thoroughly enjoy answering your questions and leading you to his research and articles.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 09, 2008, 05:56:17 PM
There is an article about how Sandra Day O'Conner is setting up a web site that teaches Civics and Government using both text and game playing.  Sorry I didn't copy the link, but look in the NYTimes under Education in today's online issue.  Interesting that NCLB has caused the dropping of civics and government as subjects taught in middle school/high school.
ter and sip a Coke.

DNR,

Here is the link: http://www.ourcourts.org/ The site is just starting up and there isn't much there yet. I have it on appropriate pages to upload to my site during the coming renovations.
 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 09, 2008, 06:13:39 PM
Popularity does not indicate that something is good for kids, but it does tend to indicate that children enjoy coloring pictures and it may indicate that they learn something from the experience, and that adults who d/l the pictures for or with them, feel they get something from the experience.

I guess, the key words are "MAY INDICATE". I know that DRAWING pictures to illustrate words helped a lot of my students learn to read and comprehend the words better than doing phonics activities with the words. It was critical that the children draw the pictures themselves rather than being given pictures for the words. For kids with absolutely no drawing skills, even stick figures, pasting pictures found in magazines were helpful, but I cannot say for certainty that this was absolutely effective. The drawing was!

Quote
1) Beyond your own personal (and valuable) experience, do you have any studies that suggest that about drawing vs. recognition? I know I haven't seen any studies one way or the other on it. (I have seen studies that suggest that labeling maps has such an effect, at times - though not that coloring them made things better.)

When you get in touch with Bob, you will see that he has done research on a reading method "Direct Access". That was the method which tested the drawing as a means of learning and retention.

Quote
2) How did you determine if somebody had a reasonable sense of picture or not, prior to giving such an assignment?

Josh, I spent the first week of every year using instruments to determine how my students learned. Two posts up, I have the link to the Environmental Survey which was very helpful. A very old teacher-method to do this is to ask the child to illustrate something and note how well it is done. There are tests for young children that determine how picture savvy a child is, assuming average small muscle maturation.

Quote
I would love to talk with your friend Bob, and/or to read some of his work. It sounds like it dovetails nicely with some of mine from the other side. And the question the teacher asked him lines up with my interaction of asking a team member if she thought in pictures: "Well, of course... (and she paused) Why? What do you think in?!"

Josh, I will send you a personal message with Bob's email address. He'd love to hear from you, and perhaps, since we are currently talking about his favorite topic in education, he may join us in the forum. I've invited him before, but nothing he was interested in was happening, so he didn't bother.


Quote
Coming back to my two reactions to drawing pictures as homework:

1) You comment that it would be foolish to dismiss a means of learning just because it was ineffective for one. Please note that in my post explaining stating that I thought drawing homework would be frustrating and a waste of time, that I explicitly had meant to say "for me." I was not saying that it would be a frustrating waste of time for everybody.

Josh, I was off and running long before you posted that this was a "about me" comment. I thought you were being one of those people who believe that whatever is true of them is true of everyone.

Quote
2) It is unclear to me that drawing pictures of, for the sake of the discussion, presidents is a means of learning. I am not insisting it isn't. But that was not really the heart of my question to you at the end of my latter post on the topic. I asked you what the purpose of homework is, not what the purpose of drawing a president is.

The purpose of homework is to support learning.



Title: Re: On Individualization
Post by: weezo on June 09, 2008, 06:17:56 PM
As a deeply committed individualizer/differentiator in classroom instruction, homework has always been one of the biggest areas of conflict.

If I have a student whom I know gets nothing out of doing homework, assuming he ever does it at all, which is seldom, at best, why should I continue to assign it to him? How does making him feel bad and setting him up for conflict with parents further his educational or personal growth?

If I do not assign him homework, then the other students, inevitably, complain that they have to and he doesn't. This particular debate bothers me far less. I know how to handle it! But it is still there.

Tell the students (and the parents) from day one that you will be individualizing their instruction, remind them as often as necessary, and when the others complain, just point out that it is a matter of individualization. Another thought, is that maybe you are not thinking out-of-the-box enough for out-of-class and not under your eyeballs ways for that student to learn. Homework does not need to be boring. Find out how the student learns best and give them homework in that style, even if it is to play a certain video game x number of time tonight and bring in proof you did it.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 09, 2008, 08:49:48 PM
Popularity does not indicate that something is good for kids, but it does tend to indicate that children enjoy coloring pictures and it may indicate that they learn something from the experience, and that adults who d/l the pictures for or with them, feel they get something from the experience.

I guess, the key words are "MAY INDICATE". I know that DRAWING pictures to illustrate words helped a lot of my students learn to read and comprehend the words better than doing phonics activities with the words. It was critical that the children draw the pictures themselves rather than being given pictures for the words. For kids with absolutely no drawing skills, even stick figures, pasting pictures found in magazines were helpful, but I cannot say for certainty that this was absolutely effective. The drawing was!

Quote
1) Beyond your own personal (and valuable) experience, do you have any studies that suggest that about drawing vs. recognition? I know I haven't seen any studies one way or the other on it. (I have seen studies that suggest that labeling maps has such an effect, at times - though not that coloring them made things better.)

When you get in touch with Bob, you will see that he has done research on a reading method "Direct Access". That was the method which tested the drawing as a means of learning and retention.

Quote
2) How did you determine if somebody had a reasonable sense of picture or not, prior to giving such an assignment?

Josh, I spent the first week of every year using instruments to determine how my students learned. Two posts up, I have the link to the Environmental Survey which was very helpful. A very old teacher-method to do this is to ask the child to illustrate something and note how well it is done. There are tests for young children that determine how picture savvy a child is, assuming average small muscle maturation.

Quote
I would love to talk with your friend Bob, and/or to read some of his work. It sounds like it dovetails nicely with some of mine from the other side. And the question the teacher asked him lines up with my interaction of asking a team member if she thought in pictures: "Well, of course... (and she paused) Why? What do you think in?!"

Josh, I will send you a personal message with Bob's email address. He'd love to hear from you, and perhaps, since we are currently talking about his favorite topic in education, he may join us in the forum. I've invited him before, but nothing he was interested in was happening, so he didn't bother.


Quote
Coming back to my two reactions to drawing pictures as homework:

1) You comment that it would be foolish to dismiss a means of learning just because it was ineffective for one. Please note that in my post explaining stating that I thought drawing homework would be frustrating and a waste of time, that I explicitly had meant to say "for me." I was not saying that it would be a frustrating waste of time for everybody.

Josh, I was off and running long before you posted that this was a "about me" comment. I thought you were being one of those people who believe that whatever is true of them is true of everyone.

Quote
2) It is unclear to me that drawing pictures of, for the sake of the discussion, presidents is a means of learning. I am not insisting it isn't. But that was not really the heart of my question to you at the end of my latter post on the topic. I asked you what the purpose of homework is, not what the purpose of drawing a president is.

The purpose of homework is to support learning.




Just two things. One is that mental imaging does help children learn vocabulary and is known to increase their reading comprehension.

Two, if "the purpose of homework is to support learning", then one would suppose that "the learning" that takes place as a result of doing homework would be measurable. In fact, it is generally not measurable since once the work goes home the "control" over the product goes with it, and it is difficult to track whether or not a student has completed the homework independently, with help, with how much help, and has in fact, learned.

On the other hand, the research currently being done indicates that when students are aprised of their learning goals, and participate in setting those goals, and evaluated with the students as they progress towards those goals that it is far more effective in ensuring their learning than any thing else going.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 09, 2008, 10:21:59 PM
Just two things. One is that mental imaging does help children learn vocabulary and is known to increase their reading comprehension.

Two, if "the purpose of homework is to support learning", then one would suppose that "the learning" that takes place as a result of doing homework would be measurable. In fact, it is generally not measurable since once the work goes home the "control" over the product goes with it, and it is difficult to track whether or not a student has completed the homework independently, with help, with how much help, and has in fact, learned.

On the other hand, the research currently being done indicates that when students are aprised of their learning goals, and participate in setting those goals, and evaluated with the students as they progress towards those goals that it is far more effective in ensuring their learning than any thing else going.

OK, Utley. Yes, the learning that occurs with homework, whether the student receives help or may be measurable and it may or may not actually be measured. There is absolutely no certainty that any tests or sets of test measure all that we expect students to learn. I am not convinced that there must be an "control" over "learning" as you state it. We are not yet at a point where we can say with any firmness that we know or understand everything that is comprised by "learning" or "education".

Suppose you assign a reading in history or geography to your students. Perhaps to read the next chapter. Most of the kids can answer the questions you ask the next day about the chapter. But, some of the kids may have learned the answers to questions you didn't have time or weren't prepared to ask. Therefore, you cannot say with certainty that learning did not take place for those kids - it could well be that you just did not ask the right questions. You may have asked question on what you thought were the most important aspects of the chapter, but a/some kids may have gotten something different out of it. Look at the book discussions. Some people see one thing in a chapter or a book, others read something else. Some question this or that point, others take those points in stride and question something totally different.

As to having the kids involved in setting goals and seeing their progress, I was doing that 20 years ago with my special ed kids. Not, perhaps on the level that one would with each and all children, but on a level that gave them control over what they learned so that they understood (or could question) why we did certain things in class. The process is called an IEP, and when done fully in accord with the law, the student is a full participant in the process. Before I started teaching LD kids, my own son was diagnosed with a learning disability, and, as a student in special ed teacher preparation, I had access to the best local minds, and used them to insure that he got what was best. It was best for him to participate in the IEP. Naturally, as a teacher, I used that experience, shocking parents and admins in the process, but it made a difference with most of my students. In the past, the school had not often had parents attend the IEP meetings, often sending them home to the parents to sign without input. The first year, I announced that each student would be a part of his/her IEP meeting, and parents, perhaps worried what would take place with their child if they weren't there, came to the meetings. I learned what reasons kept parents from attending, and over the years made arrangement to nullify all excuses and achieve 100% parent participation in IEPs.

We did the IEP's at the end of the year, for the next year. If you do something similar during the first week of the year, you can accomplish the same thing. Of course, you may have students for a single year, whereas I often had them for four years, so if they weren't sure what was going on the first year, in later years they became much more interested and involved in their own IEPs.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 10, 2008, 06:58:07 AM
Suppose you assign a reading in history or geography to your students. Perhaps to read the next chapter. Most of the kids can answer the questions you ask the next day about the chapter. But, some of the kids may have learned the answers to questions you didn't have time or weren't prepared to ask. Therefore, you cannot say with certainty that learning did not take place for those kids - it could well be that you just did not ask the right questions. You may have asked question on what you thought were the most important aspects of the chapter, but a/some kids may have gotten something different out of it. Look at the book discussions. Some people see one thing in a chapter or a book, others read something else. Some question this or that point, others take those points in stride and question something totally different.


Suppose you were to ask the students to read a chapter to uncover 5 facts. The 5 facts they are looking for are specifically told to the students BEFORE they read it. Those 5 facts are linked directly to a specific larger goal that you have shared with the students regarding the Unit of study. After allowing students to read the chapter and uncover the 5 facts, you give a short quiz on them, the purpose of which is not to get a grade but to help students understand for themselves how well they learned the facts. Suppose afterwards you based your following instruction on that quiz, so that those who did not glean the 5 facts got remedial instruction, and those who did were able to extend their study on the chapter you assigned with other activities that you or they design. Then you'd be teaching for a target that everyone in the process is clear about, and more importantly, you'd know if your students were learning. And as for what else the students would learn, it might just be up to them.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 10, 2008, 12:10:16 PM
Utley,

A very good response. I can see an assignment to discover five facts.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on June 10, 2008, 01:54:30 PM
Suppose you assign a reading in history or geography to your students. Perhaps to read the next chapter. Most of the kids can answer the questions you ask the next day about the chapter. But, some of the kids may have learned the answers to questions you didn't have time or weren't prepared to ask. Therefore, you cannot say with certainty that learning did not take place for those kids - it could well be that you just did not ask the right questions. You may have asked question on what you thought were the most important aspects of the chapter, but a/some kids may have gotten something different out of it. Look at the book discussions. Some people see one thing in a chapter or a book, others read something else. Some question this or that point, others take those points in stride and question something totally different.


Suppose you were to ask the students to read a chapter to uncover 5 facts. The 5 facts they are looking for are specifically told to the students BEFORE they read it. Those 5 facts are linked directly to a specific larger goal that you have shared with the students regarding the Unit of study. After allowing students to read the chapter and uncover the 5 facts, you give a short quiz on them, the purpose of which is not to get a grade but to help students understand for themselves how well they learned the facts. Suppose afterwards you based your following instruction on that quiz, so that those who did not glean the 5 facts got remedial instruction, and those who did were able to extend their study on the chapter you assigned with other activities that you or they design. Then you'd be teaching for a target that everyone in the process is clear about, and more importantly, you'd know if your students were learning. And as for what else the students would learn, it might just be up to them.

That's not learning.  That's regurgitation of teacher-selected "facts".

No wonder creativity gets beaten out of our students very early.  They spend far too much time looking for "right" answers as opposed to thinking outside the box..

Then again, given the current trends in education, the power elites in our country want to turn our millions of little Deltas and Epsilons to serve as fodder for the military/industrial complex that Ike warned us about in 1961.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 10, 2008, 02:14:58 PM
Suppose you assign a reading in history or geography to your students. Perhaps to read the next chapter. Most of the kids can answer the questions you ask the next day about the chapter. But, some of the kids may have learned the answers to questions you didn't have time or weren't prepared to ask. Therefore, you cannot say with certainty that learning did not take place for those kids - it could well be that you just did not ask the right questions. You may have asked question on what you thought were the most important aspects of the chapter, but a/some kids may have gotten something different out of it. Look at the book discussions. Some people see one thing in a chapter or a book, others read something else. Some question this or that point, others take those points in stride and question something totally different.


Suppose you were to ask the students to read a chapter to uncover 5 facts. The 5 facts they are looking for are specifically told to the students BEFORE they read it. Those 5 facts are linked directly to a specific larger goal that you have shared with the students regarding the Unit of study. After allowing students to read the chapter and uncover the 5 facts, you give a short quiz on them, the purpose of which is not to get a grade but to help students understand for themselves how well they learned the facts. Suppose afterwards you based your following instruction on that quiz, so that those who did not glean the 5 facts got remedial instruction, and those who did were able to extend their study on the chapter you assigned with other activities that you or they design. Then you'd be teaching for a target that everyone in the process is clear about, and more importantly, you'd know if your students were learning. And as for what else the students would learn, it might just be up to them.

That's not learning.  That's regurgitation of teacher-selected "facts".

No wonder creativity gets beaten out of our students very early.  They spend far too much time looking for "right" answers as opposed to thinking outside the box..

Then again, given the current trends in education, the power elites in our country want to turn our millions of little Deltas and Epsilons to serve as fodder for the military/industrial complex that Ike warned us about in 1961.

Sorry, ancient mariner, but you'd be wrong. It was a SIMPLE EXAMPLE to demonstrate the importance of apprising the student of what he or she is responsible for learning during the time that he or she is expected to be learning it.

All states have Core Curriculum Content Standards that have to be addressed in some specific way. All classes in public education have a curriculum which must address those standards and is also free to add whatever local standards are agreed upon, and too often those curriculae and their objectives are kept a mystery from the students themselves, by over-controlling "teachers".

Those inconvenient standards, btw, are selected for teachers and students by curriculum committees, curriculum directors, statewide committees, etcetera, and if you are competent about doing your job, they are what you are responsible for delivering.

And the data is clear. When the objectives from the lessons to be learned are made clear to the students, shared with the students, and the students are given opportunities along the way to be assessed towards achieving those objectives, real learning takes place. It's called formative assessment, and it is using assessment to teach---and it is enabling students to show their learning more readily when they take summative assessments.

The rest of your diatribe is off-topic and off-base and meant to impair the discussion in order to refocus it upon something you would like us to spend time chatting about.

Which is "creativity" and its role in a child's education.

Which is fine, and I am open to discussing it. And you can start by explaining how you measure it, as I'd like to see that explanation.

But when you say that the learning I described in the previous post is simply "regurgitation", you'd be misreading it.

Whether that is purposeful misreading or not may be debatable.

 



Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on June 10, 2008, 05:16:12 PM
Utley,

And the data is clear. When the objectives from the lessons to be learned are made clear to the students, shared with the students, and the students are given opportunities along the way to be assessed towards achieving those objectives, real learning takes place. It's called formative assessment, and it is using assessment to teach---and it is enabling students to show their learning more readily when they take summative assessments.

The rest of your diatribe is off-topic and off-base and meant to impair the discussion in order to refocus it upon something you would like us to spend time chatting about.


How you can be so right on so many topics and just so damn WRONG when it comes to education never ceases to astound me.

What you propose, and what is stifling "education" (as opposed to learning) is fine of all you want to do is turn out lots of little Deltas and Epsilons.

How do you measure what I propose?  Certainly not by a pencil-and-paper short answer test.  Of course, if you want to teach to a test, I suppose that's what YOU might call learning.

The real learning might well take 10-15 years to show up.  How do you want to measure creative problem solving, outside the box thinking, civic engagement, and all the other things that real education entails?

Sorry, but you just have to WAIT!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 10, 2008, 05:29:53 PM
Utley and Cap,

I have great respect for the Cap, whose work I've been reading about for several years. Utley, as you know, you have been on my sh*t list more than once.

Nevertheless, you both make good points. Creativity is more highly prized than regurgitating fact. No, you cannot measure it on a test, but you can recognize it when you see if. Creativity is more likely to be responsible for the success of American enterprises in building a great nation and economy, and the downplay of creativity in the past years, as we were sold down the river on the fact that if we couldn't measure something it had no value.

Yes, we are all saddled with objectives to tell us what to teach. Sometimes these go so far as to say what day to teach them, and how long to spend, and some even provide a script so that the teacher does not venture into any creative application of those objectives. In addition the current bag of goofballs in the DOE now require tests to measure how many dots in the desks can put dashes on the score card. Cap, as a teacher of AP courses, is bound by the test - and he could be expected to cry that he has no room to teach civic responsibility or creativity, yet he stuck to his values, taught as he felt it should be done, and is retiring with a string of successes to his credit.

So, Utley, if Cap could do it under the strict AP programs, and I could do it with the strict Va SOLs, they YOU TOO can do it, if you have the strength of will to do so. Do not let those state or local objectives and standards squeeze you out of doing your job. Stop trying to drill holes in head to pour in learning, and think out of the box about how to do it for each precious mind entrusted to you.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 10, 2008, 05:57:08 PM
Utley,

And the data is clear. When the objectives from the lessons to be learned are made clear to the students, shared with the students, and the students are given opportunities along the way to be assessed towards achieving those objectives, real learning takes place. It's called formative assessment, and it is using assessment to teach---and it is enabling students to show their learning more readily when they take summative assessments.

The rest of your diatribe is off-topic and off-base and meant to impair the discussion in order to refocus it upon something you would like us to spend time chatting about.


How you can be so right on so many topics and just so damn WRONG when it comes to education never ceases to astound me.

What you propose, and what is stifling "education" (as opposed to learning) is fine of all you want to do is turn out lots of little Deltas and Epsilons.

How do you measure what I propose?  Certainly not by a pencil-and-paper short answer test.  Of course, if you want to teach to a test, I suppose that's what YOU might call learning.

The real learning might well take 10-15 years to show up.  How do you want to measure creative problem solving, outside the box thinking, civic engagement, and all the other things that real education entails?

Sorry, but you just have to WAIT!

Again, and maybe it's because you are so entrenched in the ways of the ancient, you are misinterpreting my remarks, simply because you do not believe it to be true, and because you have a particular political agenda to advance.

I just work with kids and they learn and they come back and they tell me how much more they learned with me than with others--but that's anecdotal and not evidence.

Read this:    http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbla9810.htm

Then read this:

http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/k9911sti.htm

Then get back to me.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 10, 2008, 06:03:23 PM
Utley and Cap,

I have great respect for the Cap, whose work I've been reading about for several years. Utley, as you know, you have been on my sh*t list more than once.

Nevertheless, you both make good points. Creativity is more highly prized than regurgitating fact. No, you cannot measure it on a test, but you can recognize it when you see if. Creativity is more likely to be responsible for the success of American enterprises in building a great nation and economy, and the downplay of creativity in the past years, as we were sold down the river on the fact that if we couldn't measure something it had no value.

Yes, we are all saddled with objectives to tell us what to teach. Sometimes these go so far as to say what day to teach them, and how long to spend, and some even provide a script so that the teacher does not venture into any creative application of those objectives. In addition the current bag of goofballs in the DOE now require tests to measure how many dots in the desks can put dashes on the score card. Cap, as a teacher of AP courses, is bound by the test - and he could be expected to cry that he has no room to teach civic responsibility or creativity, yet he stuck to his values, taught as he felt it should be done, and is retiring with a string of successes to his credit.

So, Utley, if Cap could do it under the strict AP programs, and I could do it with the strict Va SOLs, they YOU TOO can do it, if you have the strength of will to do so. Do not let those state or local objectives and standards squeeze you out of doing your job. Stop trying to drill holes in head to pour in learning, and think out of the box about how to do it for each precious mind entrusted to you.



 

Do you have idea how ego-fucking-centric your post sounds?

Learn to approach the job you used to have scientifically instead of emotionally and you will see that there is more care in the approach I advocate, and more equinimity in it, too.

 


 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 10, 2008, 06:12:51 PM
Utley,

And the data is clear. When the objectives from the lessons to be learned are made clear to the students, shared with the students, and the students are given opportunities along the way to be assessed towards achieving those objectives, real learning takes place. It's called formative assessment, and it is using assessment to teach---and it is enabling students to show their learning more readily when they take summative assessments.

The rest of your diatribe is off-topic and off-base and meant to impair the discussion in order to refocus it upon something you would like us to spend time chatting about.


How you can be so right on so many topics and just so damn WRONG when it comes to education never ceases to astound me.

What you propose, and what is stifling "education" (as opposed to learning) is fine of all you want to do is turn out lots of little Deltas and Epsilons.

How do you measure what I propose?  Certainly not by a pencil-and-paper short answer test.  Of course, if you want to teach to a test, I suppose that's what YOU might call learning.

The real learning might well take 10-15 years to show up.  How do you want to measure creative problem solving, outside the box thinking, civic engagement, and all the other things that real education entails?

Sorry, but you just have to WAIT!

Again, and maybe it's because you are so entrenched in the ways of the ancient, you are misinterpreting my remarks, simply because you do not believe it to be true, and because you have a particular political agenda to advance.

I just work with kids and they learn and they come back and they tell me how much more they learned with me than with others--but that's anecdotal and not evidence.

Read this:    http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbla9810.htm

Then read this:

http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/k9911sti.htm

Then get back to me.

1) Cap O's perspective is exactly the opposite of "entrenchment in the ways of the ancients."

2) Pedagogical issues and political issues are deeply connected. Without concurring with Cap O's arguably neo-marxist perspectives on the purposes of current educational moves, the point that teaching to a preset number of concrete pieces of knowledge does not lead to higher level thinking skills is pretty much dead on.

3) One of the things I have observed in education and educational psychology research is that the methods teachers believe they use and the methods they use often have little to do with each other.

This is important.

It means that many of our most cherished teachers were stern, by the book, no nonsense folks - who cared passionately about us. And many others of those most cherished teachers were nutty-crunchy, anything goes, throw the book out folks - who cared passionately about us.

I have no doubt, Mr. Utley, that your students learned more from you than from most other teachers. And I can tell that you are a far more structured teacher than I, clear in the objectives, concrete in the goals, and I bet that your students remember you the rest of their lives.

I similarly have no doubts that Cap 0's students learned more from him than from most other teachers. You both show far more self-reflective teaching practices than 95+% of the people in the field out there. More's the pity.

It is personality more than style that makes you effective teachers. I would bet the farm on it (if I had one to bet). Yes, you have to believe in what you are doing, but given that, the impact you have on a kid will be deep and lasting.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 10, 2008, 06:35:38 PM
the point that teaching to a preset number of concrete pieces of knowledge does not lead to higher level thinking skills is pretty much dead on.

Well, sure it's a great point---except no one here was making the argument that it did.


So, as an off-topic point:

Brilliant.

As for the comments on teaching styles---they vary and some kids learn better from some of us than others. My main reason for going down this lane is because it bothers me that people defend practices in education   

a) merely because it appears to work for them

b) without presenting evidence that it works for many

c)tradition

d) or without any firm philosophical underpinnings

If you read that Stiggins article you'll see that this kind of teaching is about reaching all kids, and empowering them to take control of their learning. If that doesn't lend itself to creativity, or afford individualization, then I don't know what will.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 10, 2008, 07:21:05 PM
Utley,

If I had followed only what was scientifically established to work, I would not have taught anything. Back when I was preparing to become a special ed teacher, the "wisdom" and "scientificity" was that children learned by writing something over and over. We were taught to copy an outline of what the kids were to learn on the blackboard, and have the kids copy it neatly into notebooks, and voila! they learned as much as they were capable of. And, in later classes, it was individualization without efficiency. If half the class was on the verge of learning multiplication, you were not supposed to combine them into a group, but to teach each one separately on the very day they arrived at multiplication --- as if that was a fixed and immutable date.

So, I tossed out the science and taught the KIDS. I grouped where it made sense, and I individualized where that made sense. And, like Utley and Cap, my students now tell me that I did more for them than any other teacher.

My turn against scientificity came to a full head when I took a summer course that required us to critique a lot of journal articles in special ed. I noticed that most of them were apparently written only to complete requirements for tenure. There was little or no connection between the stats and the conclusion. Then, I met Bob, and ended up reading his work three months later, and his logic was clear, his stats lined up to his conclusions, and the only thing I have added to his method over the years, is the requirement to have the kids draw the pictures instead of being given picture to memorize. If you think about it, that makes sense. If the child is given a picture, there are two steps to learning, one to learn what the picture means, and then to learn that the picture and the word mean the same. If the child has to create the picture, they have to think deeply about the meaning of the word and the two seem to merge well in their minds. I don't know, and don't care, if any researcher ever took on the task of counting the beans to prove the method worked. I saw it work, and I saw kids whose reading levels had flatlined for 5-6 years, finally begin to make forward progress, and to continue to make progress over their high school years with me.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 10, 2008, 07:26:07 PM

Do you have idea how ego-fucking-centric your post sounds?

Learn to approach the job you used to have scientifically instead of emotionally and you will see that there is more care in the approach I advocate, and more equinimity in it, too.


Yes, and your reply is even more ego-centric. "Learn to approach (teaching
& learning) in the way I advocate" ... sounds like you think you have the only right answers. I guess it's too much to expect your ego to allow that others may have also found approaches that provide "more care" and "more equinimity" than yours do.

You are in the same position as those who say, "I learned by phonics, and phonics is the best way for all children to learn". Duh!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 10, 2008, 07:45:42 PM
To return to the discussion of graduation rates, Solomon adds some data and links to his former comments:

EPE cannot estimate state or district graduation rates, but they claim to anyway.  It is impossible to determine district, city or state graduation rates without a data system that can track individual students through their entire high school careers.  Few school districts or states have such a system.  But New York City does and it finds that simplistic graduation measures understate their graduation rate by about 25 percentage points.  Jay Greene, another who uses the simplistic methods, estimated the New York City school graduation rate at 43% (4) and EPE estimated 45% (5).  NY’s data system followed each student for a seven-year period finding that 68% actually graduated while 2% were still in school.  This difference is huge and is attributed to three categories of students that both EPE and Greene unfortunately count as dropouts:  (a) kids moving to new neighborhoods and enrolling there, (b) some graduating in more than 4 years and (c) significant numbers of youngsters still in school---not having dropped out---after 4 years.  Thus, EPE and Greene data cannot be taken seriously. 

 

National data can help cut through the misimpression.  The Census Bureau attempts to assess national graduation rates by determining, for all people aged 18-24, whether they have finished high school.  The latest report shows that in 2004, 87% of all 18-24-year olds had completed high school (6).  EPE ---and thus the Education Week and Promise Alliance estimated national graduation rate of 70% appears to be way off the mark. 

 

There also is a general misunderstanding about the reasons for dropouts.  It is questionable as to how high graduation rates can possibly be as long as so much poverty exists.  When the causes of dropouts are examined, the vast majority are likely caused by societal factors, outside the control of the schools and closely correlated with poverty.  These include family financial problems requiring a kid to drop out and work full time, pregnancy, incarceration, drugs, gangs, unwillingness to exert the necessary effort and, in spite of heroic efforts by teachers, some students get so far behind in schoolwork that they have no hope of catching up and drop out.  Some dropouts are surely caused by poor teaching and boring classes.  But preliminary research seems to show that this is not a major factor.  Therefore, one must ask the question, how high can the graduation rates ever become?

 

The good news is that from 1972 until 2004, national graduation rates have climbed from 86% to 92% for whites and from 72% to 83% for blacks, according to the National Center for Educational Statistics (6).  So hold the phone and take a deep breath.  We don’t have the dropout crisis in our schools that some alarmists would lead you to believe, but decreasing poverty might do more than anything else to help.

 -------------------------------------------------

Dr. Solomon is a retired University of Kentucky professor and can be reached at [email protected]

 

(1) http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2008/06/05/40execsum.h27.html

(2) http://www.epaa.info/ojs/index.php/epaa/article/view/EPAA_v16n11/13

(3) http://members.aol.com/mbsolomon/fontaine.htm

(4) Greene and Winters, Civic Report No. 48 April 2006, Leaving Boys Behind: Public High School Graduation Rates, Manhattan Institute.

(5).http://www.americaspromise.org/uploadedFiles/AmericasPromiseAlliance/Dropout_Crisis/SWANSONCitiesInCrisis040108.pdf

(6) Dropout Rates in the U.S 2004, NCES 2007-024



Now, if the schools can alleviate poverty in the parents of their students, they may be able to turn around the results. But that would be to take on a totally different mission from education.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 10, 2008, 08:06:42 PM
If I had followed only what was scientifically established to work, I would not have taught anything.

The simple fact is that you don't really know what you taught or didn't teach.

 



Title: Re: Education
Post by: Lhoffman on June 10, 2008, 08:19:37 PM
Utley....I'm not sure what you mean when in your above post.

But for me the question of homework is not how much or how long, but why and for what purpose.  Any homework assigned without a specific goal is busywork.  It has greatly annoyed me that the public school system where I live mandates homework....15 minutes for first grades, 30 for second and third.  And on it goes without or reason, teachers are just instructed to assign it.  It's no wonder parents rebel.

I do of course assign homework.  In the matter of learning Reading and Music, use it or lose it. 

   


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on June 10, 2008, 08:50:42 PM
Utley,

Both of the articles are edubabble.

I'm sick to death of ivory tower folks who haven't taught a classroom full of adolescents in years.

I'm even sicker of those inhabitants of those ivory towers who, not being able to teach, escaped from teaching and have the stones to tell us what we are doing wrong.

I would further note that both articles equate learning with "improved" testing scores; in fact, one of them even talks about understanding the contents of the box better.

And, Josh, you say neo-Marxist as though the label:
1. tells anyone reading more about me than about you
and,
2. even if true, fails to explain why that is a bad thing.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 10, 2008, 09:02:11 PM
And, Josh, you say neo-Marxist as though the label:
1. tells anyone reading more about me than about you
and,
2. even if true, fails to explain why that is a bad thing.

1) Certainly possible, though frankly, I suspect it will tell most people nothing about either of us, without their doing some research.

2) Who said it was a bad thing? It is the generally accepted descriptor for the views you have espoused, at least from my reading, coursework, and discussion. It is markedly different from the other descriptor which I have heard and which I reject - conspiracy theorist.

I don't agree with everything Apple and his cohorts have to say, but there is too much that just makes sense to disregard it all, either.

And... while your point to the first one might have been true, left unsaid or without the second point, the combination probably means that our paired comments speak volumes about you, as well as me.

*shrugs* I don't think that is a bad thing, either.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 10, 2008, 09:13:59 PM
If I had followed only what was scientifically established to work, I would not have taught anything.

The simple fact is that you don't really know what you taught or didn't teach.

Actually, I do. I know I taught students to read well enough to succeed at the "C" or better level in regular classes. I know I taught students to read well enough to read for pleasure into adulthood. I know I taught students that they could learn the "hard" stuff, and that led them to strive in their jobs after graduating. I know that I taught students to use the computer for writing and the wrote better on the computer than in handwriting (by better I mean they wrote more and with more depth). I know that I taught students to use the computer to communicate with people around the world, and some of them are still on the Internet and have their own sites. Now, do I have the stats to show this? Not any more. I trashed them a few months after I retired, and wish I hadn't just so I could post them to show phools like you what I know and what I don't know.

I suspect that it is you who doesn't know what the students learned in your class outside of the limited parameters of whatever is measured on whatever tests they are required to test.

You remind me of a few regular teachers I knew over my career who would bager my kids to say they had taught them this or that when it was apparent that however they may have taught it, the student neither remembered the experience nor learned from it. One of those teachers was later discovered to have lupis, which was probably a good reason for her omissions.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 10, 2008, 10:08:36 PM
"I taught my students better than you did!"

"No, you didn't! I taught mine better!"

"Oh, yeah?"

"Yeah!"

"Prove it!"

"You couldn't understand the proof!"



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 10, 2008, 10:09:57 PM
Josh,

Did you get the message last night with Bob's address. I'm not sure if I sent it or deleted it. If you did, did you get a reply yet?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 10, 2008, 10:28:44 PM
Josh,

Did you get the message last night with Bob's address. I'm not sure if I sent it or deleted it. If you did, did you get a reply yet?

You sent it. I got it.

I have not yet acted on it, because I want to make sure I know what I am talking about before I do so, but I appreciate the contact, thanks!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 10, 2008, 11:42:52 PM
Utley,

Is it fair to assume that you have no respect or use for Authentic Assessment rather than tests to measure what and how students have learned?



Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 10, 2008, 11:45:02 PM
Josh,

Write him when you are ready. You will find him an easy person to converse with. From what you've said of your learning philosophy, you will find much common ground with Bob.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 11, 2008, 06:33:09 AM
Utley,

Both of the articles are edubabble.

I'm sick to death of ivory tower folks who haven't taught a classroom full of adolescents in years.

I'm even sicker of those inhabitants of those ivory towers who, not being able to teach, escaped from teaching and have the stones to tell us what we are doing wrong.

I would further note that both articles equate learning with "improved" testing scores; in fact, one of them even talks about understanding the contents of the box better.

And, Josh, you say neo-Marxist as though the label:
1. tells anyone reading more about me than about you
and,
2. even if true, fails to explain why that is a bad thing.


WEll, when your mind is closed, it's closed. But I've tried a lot of what these RESEARCHERS have put forth and it works. When you see POOR and WORKING CLASS kids making huge gains in their achievement, you stick with it.

And it's a misread to say that they "equate learning with 'improved' testing scores". They are just using testing scores to demonstrate that learning has taken place. they are not arguing that learning is only about testing scores.

Nonetheless, the fact is that we live in an era of accountability, and instead of continuing to rail against the testing, deal with it, and then take steps to ADD to curriculum and to teaching to ensure that character and creativity are addressed within your school programs, too--though they'd be things that are much more difficult, if not impossible, to measure.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 11, 2008, 06:40:16 AM
Utley,

Is it fair to assume that you have no respect or use for Authentic Assessment rather than tests to measure what and how students have learned?



 

It's unfair to mischaracterize my views with questions like the above.

It's fair to assume that you haven't read the articles I posted.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 11, 2008, 06:48:19 AM
If I had followed only what was scientifically established to work, I would not have taught anything.

The simple fact is that you don't really know what you taught or didn't teach.

Actually, I do. I know I taught students to read well enough to succeed at the "C" or better level in regular classes. I know I taught students to read well enough to read for pleasure into adulthood. I know I taught students that they could learn the "hard" stuff, and that led them to strive in their jobs after graduating. I know that I taught students to use the computer for writing and the wrote better on the computer than in handwriting (by better I mean they wrote more and with more depth). I know that I taught students to use the computer to communicate with people around the world, and some of them are still on the Internet and have their own sites. Now, do I have the stats to show this? Not any more. I trashed them a few months after I retired, and wish I hadn't just so I could post them to show phools like you what I know and what I don't know.

I suspect that it is you who doesn't know what the students learned in your class outside of the limited parameters of whatever is measured on whatever tests they are required to test.

You remind me of a few regular teachers I knew over my career who would bager my kids to say they had taught them this or that when it was apparent that however they may have taught it, the student neither remembered the experience nor learned from it. One of those teachers was later discovered to have lupis, which was probably a good reason for her omissions.



A poverty of practice. There is a wealth of research evidence that the everyday practice of assessment in classrooms is beset with problems and shortcomings, as the following selected quotations indicate.

"Marking is usually conscientious but often fails to offer guidance on how work can be improved. In a significant minority of cases, marking reinforces underachievement and underexpectation by being too generous or unfocused. Information about pupil performance received by the teacher is insufficiently used to inform subsequent work," according to a United Kingdom inspection report on secondary schools.7
"Why is the extent and nature of formative assessment in science so impoverished?" asked a research study on secondary science teachers in the United Kingdom.8
"Indeed they pay lip service to [formative assessment] but consider that its practice is unrealistic in the present educational context," reported a study of Canadian secondary teachers.9
"The assessment practices outlined above are not common, even though these kinds of approaches are now widely promoted in the professional literature," according to a review of assessment practices in U.S. schools.10
The most important difficulties with assessment revolve around three issues. The first issue is effective learning.

The tests used by teachers encourage rote and superficial learning even when teachers say they want to develop understanding; many teachers seem unaware of the inconsistency.
The questions and other methods teachers use are not shared with other teachers in the same school, and they are not critically reviewed in relation to what they actually assess.
For primary teachers particularly, there is a tendency to emphasize quantity and presentation of work and to neglect its quality in relation to learning.
The second issue is negative impact.

The giving of marks and the grading function are overemphasized, while the giving of useful advice and the learning function are underemphasized.
Approaches are used in which pupils are compared with one another, the prime purpose of which seems to them to be competition rather than personal improvement; in consequence, assessment feedback teaches low-achieving pupils that they lack "ability," causing them to come to believe that they are not able to learn.
The third issue is the managerial role of assessments.

Teachers' feedback to pupils seems to serve social and managerial functions, often at the expense of the learning function.
Teachers are often able to predict pupils' results on external tests because their own tests imitate them, but at the same time teachers know too little about their pupils' learning needs.
The collection of marks to fill in records is given higher priority than the analysis of pupils' work to discern learning needs; furthermore, some teachers pay no attention to the assessment records of their pupils' previous teachers.
Of course, not all these descriptions apply to all classrooms. Indeed, there are many schools and classrooms to which they do not apply at all. Nevertheless, these general conclusions have been drawn by researchers who have collected evidence -- through observation, interviews, and questionnaires -- from schools in several countries, including the U.S.


http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbla9810.htm


That's the way things are for most people in most schools. Go read the rest of that article to understand why it doesn't have to be that way, and when formative assessment and meaningful feedback is consistently and consciously used by the teacher REAL LEARNING takes place.




Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on June 11, 2008, 08:20:39 AM
Here's another perspective on the country's ridiculous obsession with testing and test scores.

http://ednews.org/articles/26201/1/America-had-the-worlds-best-school-system/Page1.html

Please note that it comes from the same journal Utley cited.

Utley, as you told the forum recently, read it and then get back to us, but don't get back UNTIL you read it.





Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 11, 2008, 11:23:30 AM
Utley,

It is apparent that you have read nothing of what I posted on my methodology and practice. You keep railing about what other teachers "do wrong" and do not seem to understand or appreciate the difference in what I did. I did not compare one student to another, as you quote suggests is often done. My classes were too individualized for that. The students were set about improving their own performance, helping each other, and not competeing with one another.

I read a lot of research, especially online, but I also had a researcher available at my fingertips who not only was well acquainted with the literature, but also knew my kids very well from talking to them online and visiting them every few years. Much better than reading research in a journal and then having only the published accounting of it to go by, is to have the personal contact with the publisher to round out the corners and make suggestions when something either works well or doesn't work for a given student.

You say you do well with poor and lower class students. My students were often dirt poor, lower class and saddled with disabilities, and many of my students have achieved at much higher levels than ever anticipated by those who assigned them to my class. Gains of three grade levels in reading in one year were a yearly occurance. And, the examples of how I know the kids learned are right there with Authentic Assessment. As I said, I also had standardized test scores, since the law requires special ed students to be individually tested every year prior to the IEP. As the information was personal, I felt it inappropriate to save it after I retired. I rather regret that decision now. Hard-heads like you need numbers to believe in progress.

So, Utley, get it through your head that you are not the only teacher who has found successful methods. Your means to find them were different from those of Cap and I, but we achieved the same ends.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 11, 2008, 09:09:01 PM
Utley,

It is apparent that you have read nothing of what I posted on my methodology and practice. You keep railing about what other teachers "do wrong" and do not seem to understand or appreciate the difference in what I did. I did not compare one student to another, as you quote suggests is often done. My classes were too individualized for that. The students were set about improving their own performance, helping each other, and not competeing with one another.

I read a lot of research, especially online, but I also had a researcher available at my fingertips who not only was well acquainted with the literature, but also knew my kids very well from talking to them online and visiting them every few years. Much better than reading research in a journal and then having only the published accounting of it to go by, is to have the personal contact with the publisher to round out the corners and make suggestions when something either works well or doesn't work for a given student.

You say you do well with poor and lower class students. My students were often dirt poor, lower class and saddled with disabilities, and many of my students have achieved at much higher levels than ever anticipated by those who assigned them to my class. Gains of three grade levels in reading in one year were a yearly occurance. And, the examples of how I know the kids learned are right there with Authentic Assessment. As I said, I also had standardized test scores, since the law requires special ed students to be individually tested every year prior to the IEP. As the information was personal, I felt it inappropriate to save it after I retired. I rather regret that decision now. Hard-heads like you need numbers to believe in progress.

So, Utley, get it through your head that you are not the only teacher who has found successful methods. Your means to find them were different from those of Cap and I, but we achieved the same ends.



I read it, but it's mostly anecdotal and not of great interest. I know I'm not the only one to be successful. I just don't know why you'd quibble with one who is successful, and can prove it.

But that's YOUR hang-up, not mine.

Besides, your done, and I'm still going...so later, because I'm real busy.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 11, 2008, 09:15:35 PM
Utley,

I forget who I'm talking to. If it were anyone else, they would be open to suggestions on more ways to be successful. But you are on such a ego trip!

And, in case you have forgotten, I'm only "done" with the classroom, not with teaching and education. And, I can prove it.

Oh, and just got email from Bob. He thinks the website should be a presentation at a conference. Perhaps in 2009 - it's probably late to get on the program of one anymore this year.






Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 20, 2008, 03:15:28 AM
Teen ‘pregnancy pact’ has 17 girls expecting

Girls at a Mass. high school agree to raise their babies together

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25272678/

   
Quote
BOSTON - A Massachusetts city is investigating an apparent teenage "pregnancy pact" that has at least 17 high-school girls expecting babies, four times more than last year, including many aged 16 or younger.

    A high school health clinic in the city of Gloucester became suspicious after seeing a surge in girls seeking pregnancy tests. Local officials said Thursday nearly half of those who became pregnant appear to have entered into a pact to have their babies together over the year.

    "Some girls seemed more upset when they weren't pregnant than when they were," Gloucester High School principal Joseph Sullivan told Time magazine, which broke news of the pact on its Web site.

    Sullivan was not immediately available to comment. But local officials said at least some of the men involved in the pregnancies were in their mid-20s, including one man who appeared to be homeless. Others were boys in the school.

    Carolyn Kirk, mayor of the port city 30 miles northeast of Boston, said authorities are looking at whether to pursue statutory rape charges. "We're at the very early stages of wrestling with the complexities of this problem," she said.

    "But we also have to think about the boys. Some of these boys could have their lives changed. They could be in serious, serious trouble even if it was consensual because of their age — not from what the city could do but from what the girls' families could do," she told Reuters.

    Under Massachusetts law, it is a crime to have sex with anyone under the age of 16.

   The ‘Juno’-Jamie Lynn effect?
    "At the very least these men should be held responsible for financial support, if not put in jail for statutory rape as the mayor has suggested," Greg Verga, chairman of the Gloucester School Committee, told Reuters in a telephone interview.

    Nationwide, teen pregnancies are showing signs of rising after steadily declining from 1991 to 2005. This trend was highlighted Thursday when Britney Spears' 17-year-old sister Jamie Lynn, star of Nickelodeon's popular TV show "Zoey 101," gave birth to a baby girl, according to People magazine.

    "The data seem to be indicating that the declines that we had seen through the 1990s are coming to a close," said David Landry, a researcher at the Guttmacher Institute, a New York-based nonprofit group focusing on reproductive issues.

    Birth rates for teenagers aged 15 to 17 rose by 3 percent in 2006, the first increase since 1991, according to preliminary data released in December by the National Center for Health Statistics.

    Landry cautioned against attributing the trend to Hollywood following the recent hit movie "Juno," in which a teenager gets pregnant and decides to have the baby, and "Knocked Up," a comedy about a one-night stand.

    "The trend emerged before those movies," he said.

    In Gloucester, the 1,200-student school administered 150 pregnancy tests to students in the past academic year. The school forbids the distribution of condoms and other contraception without parental consent — a rule that prompted the school's doctor and nurse to resign in protest in May.

    "But even if we had contraceptives, that pact shows that if they wanted to get pregnant, they will get pregnant. Whether we distribute contraceptives is irrelevant," said Verga.
    Copyright 2008 Reuters.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 20, 2008, 08:01:27 AM
Josh,

Thanks for posting. I heard the story on last night's late news.

I don't know if we will ever hear more on the story - whether the men and boys will be prosecuted, or at least made to pay financial support. I don't know if the school will pay for a probe into the psychology of why the girls made the pact. Interesting if it is their response to the fact that the school declined to provide birth control, or sympathy for the doctor and nurse who resigned.

What concerns is whether this will become a "copycat" issue, and other schools will have similar actions. I can see that happening if there is not good intervention or publication of the hardships that the young mothers endure. In any event, Gloucester, Mass has clear warning of a bulge in school attendence 4/5 years down the road, and this will be an exceptional batch of children. I'm sure that some of the young mothers will go on and marry, some may make it into college. It would think that psychologists are salivating at the chance to explore this phenomena!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 20, 2008, 08:03:30 AM
It is perhaps most interesting that the mayor's concerns stated were for the life-altering effect on the boys, rather than the life-altering effect on the girls.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 20, 2008, 11:08:26 AM
Josh,

Thanks for posting. I heard the story on last night's late news.

I don't know if we will ever hear more on the story - whether the men and boys will be prosecuted, or at least made to pay financial support. I don't know if the school will pay for a probe into the psychology of why the girls made the pact. Interesting if it is their response to the fact that the school declined to provide birth control, or sympathy for the doctor and nurse who resigned.

What concerns is whether this will become a "copycat" issue, and other schools will have similar actions. I can see that happening if there is not good intervention or publication of the hardships that the young mothers endure. In any event, Gloucester, Mass has clear warning of a bulge in school attendence 4/5 years down the road, and this will be an exceptional batch of children. I'm sure that some of the young mothers will go on and marry, some may make it into college. It would think that psychologists are salivating at the chance to explore this phenomena!


I will hear more on the story. I have students in that school - none, it seems, who are part of the group (thank the gods).

It's apparently unrelated to the school's decision or the action of the doctor and nurse. (And how many high schools have a school doctor, anyway?) The "copycat" issue or even its mere occurrence without that factor concern me. The (apparent) cluelessness of it concerns me. The school's and community's responses concern me, as do the parents'.

I am not as curious at the quote from the Mayor, Anne, because I know that she is likely to have said many many more things that were not included in the article.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 20, 2008, 11:15:09 AM
Hope no one is blaming the education system for those girls getting pregnant.

One assumes they have parents.

I have teen daughters, and neither one would consider the idea of getting pregnant at this time to be in their best interests.

They didn't learn that in school.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 20, 2008, 11:21:11 AM
Hope no one is blaming the education system for those girls getting pregnant.

One assumes they have parents.

I have teen daughters, and neither one would consider the idea of getting pregnant at this time to be in their best interests.

They didn't learn that in school.

I'm sure that there are people who will blame the schools, and others who will blame Hollywood and our permissive society.

But they wouldn't do that inappropriate blaming if only the schools had done their jobs better!





</sarcasm>


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 20, 2008, 11:41:02 AM
Hope no one is blaming the education system for those girls getting pregnant.

One assumes they have parents.

I have teen daughters, and neither one would consider the idea of getting pregnant at this time to be in their best interests.

They didn't learn that in school.

I'm sure that there are people who will blame the schools, and others who will blame Hollywood and our permissive society.

But they wouldn't do that inappropriate blaming if only the schools had done their jobs better!





</sarcasm>

 :)


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 20, 2008, 12:47:09 PM
Josh, thank you for putting that sarcasm note at the bottom. I'm sure there will be plenty of folks who will blame the school and want to insist on more "Just say no" level instruction to beat it into their heads.

To me, this seems like part of the "herding" instinct of adolescence. Sorta like a pact that results in beating up someone else in front of a video camera.

Josh, I am curious how the school handled the need to continue schooling for these girls during their pregnancy and immediately afterwards. Locally, when the numbers are one or two a year, homebound teachers are provided. My experience in that role is that until the birth the girls will attend to their schooling, but once the baby arrives, schooling takes a serious backseat.

I wonder if the pact included any decisions how they would go on with their lives, or if it was based on hopes, wishes and dreams. Do any of your students know inside details on the pact? Or were they outside of it and as shocked as the rest of society?



Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 20, 2008, 12:50:50 PM
Hope no one is blaming the education system for those girls getting pregnant.

One assumes they have parents.

I have teen daughters, and neither one would consider the idea of getting pregnant at this time to be in their best interests.

They didn't learn that in school.

So girls born to GOOD parents never get pregnant?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on June 20, 2008, 01:01:26 PM
Hope no one is blaming the education system for those girls getting pregnant.

One assumes they have parents.

I have teen daughters, and neither one would consider the idea of getting pregnant at this time to be in their best interests.

They didn't learn that in school.

So girls born to GOOD parents never get pregnant?

So boys born to GOOD parents never gt girls pregnant?

I, for one, hope that every sperm donor in these cases is required to pay 18 or 21 years of child support, whichever the laws of MA provide for.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 20, 2008, 04:04:12 PM
Cap,

I am probably naive, but am assuming that that is a given. It is possible that welfare could pay the girls for the years until the boys are educated enough to contribute to the child support at a decent level, and then collect from the boys/men when they are solvent. But, yes, just because the girls wanted to get pregnant is no excuse whatsoever to relieve the boys and men of their responsibilities. I wonder if the men in their twenties are college students who thought they were getting something free?



Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 20, 2008, 04:24:09 PM
1) Assuming that you are naive as a given seems unkind to yourself.

2) While demanding that the 'sperm donors' contribute to 18 years of child support is legally likely to happen, a lot of the fathers-to-be are 16 themselves and have nothing to contribute. The community itself is down at the heels to a large extent with relatively poor employment prospects, as I understand it - fishing industry.

3) Welfare has its limits.

4) I suspect as the stories come out, we may hear a pattern of deception designed not so much to ensnare potential partners, but to merely acquire exactly what Cap called them - sperm donors. Further, that most of the moms-to-be may have given no thought to the impact on their 'partners' of the pregnancy, up to and including proof of statutory rape in such cases.

5) At least the school has an in-school child care program that could allow the moms to continue high school - as earlier student-moms are doing, including at least one who tried to talk some of them out of it.

6) I doubt any of them older guys are college students, or if college students, then community college at most. This is based primarily on geography of that area, rather than any belief that college guys would be more clueful than that.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 20, 2008, 05:53:25 PM
2) While demanding that the 'sperm donors' contribute to 18 years of child support is legally likely to happen, a lot of the fathers-to-be are 16 themselves and have nothing to contribute. The community itself is down at the heels to a large extent with relatively poor employment prospects, as I understand it - fishing industry.

3) Welfare has its limits.

I was basing the welfare supposition on what happened in my own case. While I was in college and my ex chose to work for minimum wage, I collected welfare, which was charged against him after I graduated and began to teach.  But, welfare may be set up differently in Massachusetts. It may be different now in Virginia. But, I would think that something would be done to allow the boys to finish their education before the had to take on the full responsibility of supporting these babies.

It would not surprise me to learn that the girls in the pact considered the boys "sperm donors". It sounds like adolescent thinking! <grin>  I remember making the decision that instead of becoming a doctor as I'd planned on for year, I wanted to get married and have children, and said, "I don't need a college degree to change diapers", never realizing that I may at some point have to support the children on my own, or that diaper changing was a short-term job followed by parenthood with more responsibilities.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 20, 2008, 06:47:41 PM
I wonder if the men in their twenties are college students who thought they were getting something free?



Are you talking about shoplifting the pooty?


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 20, 2008, 07:07:44 PM
I wonder if the men in their twenties are college students who thought they were getting something free?



Are you talking about shoplifting the pooty?

Whaaaaatttt ?????


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 21, 2008, 11:36:26 AM
Hope no one is blaming the education system for those girls getting pregnant.

One assumes they have parents.

I have teen daughters, and neither one would consider the idea of getting pregnant at this time to be in their best interests.

They didn't learn that in school.

So girls born to GOOD parents never get pregnant?

You'll find out when your own daughter comes of age, the numerous difficulties of navigating the stream of adolescent parenting, kid.

Bottom line, too many parents walk away from their kids at exactly the time the kids need them the most. They presume because they can do many things, that the kids know what they're doing. Which is the primary reason why so many kids are at risk for pregnancy, drugs and alcohol, suicide, etcetera...

Abdicating your personal responsibility and making it society's comes from a lack of good parenting--YES, it does!

Irresponsibility breeds irresponsibility. As a general rule.

Not a hard and fast rule, but certainly a general guideline.
 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 21, 2008, 12:11:10 PM
Yep.



























And you missed the point, which is...................................










GIRLS BORN TO GOOD PARENTING STILL GET PREGNANT, ALBEIT AT AN ARGUABLY LOWER RATE.






Cheers.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: Lhoffman on June 21, 2008, 02:42:47 PM
Utley...I do wish you the best, but as your girls are still in their teens, you have a long ways to go.  Best not to say anything about your parenting skills until they hit at least 25.  There but for the grace of God go I, etc.

Although speaking as one who has done time at the front,  I will give you some advice that your daughters will absolutely hate.  Encourage them not to begin dating for as long as possible.  When they are interested in any boy, instead of allowing the daughters to go over the boy's house, with a possible lack of supervision, have the boy over to your home instead.  Eat dinner with them, sit and watch movies with them in your living room, play video games with them, sit in the next room while they do their homework, talk to the boy and let him get to know you as a person rather than as just the father of a daughter he wants to do.   The boys who think this is an outrage probably don't have good motive in the first place, and they will not bother with your daughters.  The ones who are willing to play by the rules probably have good intentions.  But you have to remember that even the "good ones" have grown up with sexually charged perceptions put forth by the likes of MTV.  No matter what you say, the culture that your daughters are growing up in is not the culture you grew up in.

And be prepared to listen to your daughters on how you don't trust them and how old-fashioned you are.  Far better to listen to this than to a squawling baby at 2 am, because even girls who understand that it is not in their best interests to get pregnant are human, and humans tend to make mistakes....some of which have more life-altering consequences than others.

The other thing to know, and you probably do being in education, is that girls who have good relationships with their fathers and who have solid goals tend to be more forward thinking than girls who just drift with the moment. 

I'd agree that daughters of good parents have a better chance at life in general.  But these days it seems that many parents have become confused about the nature of their roles.  They seem to want to view themselves as friends rather than as mothers or fathers. 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 22, 2008, 07:41:25 AM
I'd agree that daughters of good parents have a better chance at life in general.  But these days it seems that many parents have become confused about the nature of their roles.  They seem to want to view themselves as friends rather than as mothers or fathers. 

I agree with you, especially on the last score.

Saw a tribute in a 5th grade yearbook the other day from a mother to her daughter: "BFF".


Made me spit out my coffee.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 22, 2008, 07:45:06 AM
Yep.



























And you missed the point, which is...................................










GIRLS BORN TO GOOD PARENTING STILL GET PREGNANT, ALBEIT AT AN ARGUABLY LOWER RATE.






Cheers.

Sorry, didn;t miss your "point".

Just didn't think it was so deep and meaningful...nor greatly added to the conversation.

Drink up.



Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on June 22, 2008, 09:25:34 AM
I'd agree that daughters of good parents have a better chance at life in general.  But these days it seems that many parents have become confused about the nature of their roles.  They seem to want to view themselves as friends rather than as mothers or fathers. 

I agree with you, especially on the last score.

Saw a tribute in a 5th grade yearbook the other day from a mother to her daughter: "BFF".


Made me spit out my coffee.


Agreed.

I have 5 kids, and I was never a "Friend" to any of them; I was their FATHER, which meant that many times it was necessary to tell them things they would rather not have heard.

They are now solidly engaged in their lives, families, and careers.

They and my grandchildren are the lights of my lives, and I'm pleased to say they are being PARENTS to each of the little critters.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 24, 2008, 10:48:38 AM


I have 5 kids, and I was never a "Friend" to any of them;

Funny stuff.

I constantly call my son my best friend.  And I think he will be quite quite fine for it.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 24, 2008, 12:33:36 PM


I have 5 kids, and I was never a "Friend" to any of them;

Funny stuff.

I constantly call my son my best friend.  And I think he will be quite quite fine for it.

Well, you're wrong.

 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on June 24, 2008, 12:35:41 PM


I have 5 kids, and I was never a "Friend" to any of them;

Funny stuff.

I constantly call my son my best friend.  And I think he will be quite quite fine for it.

Well, you're wrong.



There's only one right way to raise a child, after all.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 24, 2008, 12:38:59 PM


I have 5 kids, and I was never a "Friend" to any of them;

Funny stuff.

I constantly call my son my best friend.  And I think he will be quite quite fine for it.

Well, you're wrong.

 

Careful, dickwad - that could be construed as a threat.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 24, 2008, 12:44:25 PM


I have 5 kids, and I was never a "Friend" to any of them;

Funny stuff.

I constantly call my son my best friend.  And I think he will be quite quite fine for it.

Well, you're wrong.

 

Careful, dickwad - that could be construed as a threat.
You talking to me?

You think me pointing out the folly of your parenting is threatening?

Too fucking funny.

If that is  the case, apparently you really KNOW that you're wrong.





 


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 24, 2008, 12:45:34 PM


I have 5 kids, and I was never a "Friend" to any of them;

Funny stuff.

I constantly call my son my best friend.  And I think he will be quite quite fine for it.

Well, you're wrong.



There's only one right way to raise a child, after all.

Who said that?

You're not your kid's friend...it's not in his best interest for you to be so...



Title: Re: Education
Post by: kidcarter8 on June 24, 2008, 01:14:39 PM
soooooooo









sad


Title: Re: Education
Post by: Lhoffman on June 24, 2008, 01:58:25 PM
Here's the thing Kid.  You are not your child's peer, you are his parent.  Peers are a dime a dozen, but a good father is priceless.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: thecap0 on June 25, 2008, 07:55:26 AM
Here's the thing Kid.  You are not your child's peer, you are his parent.  Peers are a dime a dozen, but a good father is priceless.


AMEN!!!


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 25, 2008, 08:04:40 AM
soooooooo









sad

That you are your son's best friend? Yeah, that's sad.

He could do a lot better, i'm sure.

then again, maybe not.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on June 25, 2008, 08:33:20 AM
Merit pay approved in DC area:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/24/AR2008062401404.html?nav=rss_politics


Title: Re: Education
Post by: weezo on June 25, 2008, 10:19:50 AM
Kid,

If your son is your best friend, you need to cultivate some adult friends of your own. There is plenty of time when you son become an adult for friendship between parent and child. It is also OK to be a friend when a child is young - infancy and preschool - as long as you keep up with the adult responsibilities of keeping the child warm, dry, safe, and entertained so as to accommodate later education. During middle childhood, friendly activities contribute to bonding, but the parents must always be the one to set the limits. This is your responsibility as a parent at this time. Setting limits is also an important responsibility during adolescence.

Just taking an educated guess, but if you are trying to be a "friend" to your son, you are leaving to your wife ALL the responsibilities to be a parent. Inasmuch as he is male, it is teaching him that the female is always the one to set limits, punish, and take responsibility. That will not make him a prize catch when he shops for a wife.

Marriages and parenting both work better when both partners are taking their fair share of the adult responsibilities.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on October 09, 2017, 04:36:47 PM
http://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/failing-black-boys/

Black boys fail because educators fail them.


Title: Black and Latino kids 78% less likely to get earlyhelp with developmental delays
Post by: josh on October 18, 2017, 09:15:12 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-latino-kids-less-likely-get-early-help-developmental-delays-n811141


Title: Re: Education
Post by: FlyingVProd on November 06, 2017, 10:59:46 PM
Chapman University to buy Katella Grand apartments in Anaheim; will house 900 students

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/11/06/chapman-university-to-acquire-katella-grand-apartments-in-anaheim-will-house-900-students/ (http://www.ocregister.com/2017/11/06/chapman-university-to-acquire-katella-grand-apartments-in-anaheim-will-house-900-students/)

Salute,

Tony V.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: MrUtley3 on November 08, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
http://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/failing-black-boys/

Black boys fail because educators fail them.

Yep. The young men can't possibly be responsible or accountable, right, Josh?

Talk about bigotry.


Title: Re: Education
Post by: josh on November 13, 2017, 03:44:06 AM
http://edpolicy.education.jhu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/StudentsinvisiblemastheadFINAL.pdf (http://edpolicy.education.jhu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/StudentsinvisiblemastheadFINAL.pdf)

15-45% of our students should be at least one grade ahead of where they are.

Don't expect anything to be done about it.


Title: Philly regains control of its schools
Post by: josh on November 16, 2017, 10:09:22 PM
http://thenotebook.org/articles/2017/11/16/historic-day-philadelphia-regains-control-of-its-schools (http://thenotebook.org/articles/2017/11/16/historic-day-philadelphia-regains-control-of-its-schools)