Escape from Elba

International => Iraq in Transition => Topic started by: Admin on April 16, 2007, 09:03:11 PM



Title: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Admin on April 16, 2007, 09:03:11 PM
Discuss the stabilization of Iraq.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on June 17, 2007, 07:47:14 PM
Discuss the stabilization of Iraq.

The US gets the hell out, the Shiites and Sunnis fight for supremacy, and it will be as stable as it ever was (or will be).


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: cincy--man on June 20, 2007, 02:19:16 PM
Sounds like a plan.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on June 24, 2007, 05:07:31 PM
Bomb Teheran now! No more American troops killed building the Ayatollah empire. Non-nuclear, mainly Qom and the government buildings in Teheran. A rain of metal birds from the sky. The primatives will believe their diety is angry with them.

A shame to get involved in a shooting war and not get payback for the hostage crisis and not destroy terror command central with the bigger than life posters honoring suicide bombers and the so called Martyrs cemetaries.

On the plus side;
1) The nuclear threat would be neutralized.
 
2) The Sunnis and Kurds would welcome the end of Shite influence
    with no tears shed.

3) No more Hezbollah or volunteer armies for suicide squads. The end of
    State sponsership for terror.

4) The entire area would be stabilized so the US could concentrate on
    finding OBL and destroying Al Queada.

5) A major human rights violator would be out of business.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: weezo on June 24, 2007, 06:07:30 PM
And Bush, or whoever ordered the murders, would become the world's biggest terrorist, and the US the biggest Terrorist Nation.

Nice going!


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on June 24, 2007, 09:04:34 PM
The primatives will believe their diety is angry with them.

Have you ever even known an Iranian? The ones I have known (and worked with) were very intelligent, decent people, who suffer from poor leadership by radical religious nuts. Much like Americans.


Quote
5) A major human rights violator would be out of business.

Doing it the way you propose would make the US every bit as bad in the human rights violation department. Considering that we already lead the civilized world in percentage of our own population imprisoned, and in torturing enemies, some might argue we are already there.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on June 26, 2007, 09:48:49 AM
No I have never met any Iranians who did not want to die killing giant snake devils and barking dogs whatever. Must have been some good Germans and Japanese in the 30's however. Dead Ayatollahs down Atta Blvd. to Martyr's Square what a wonderful thought for modern civilization. Put an end to the terrible experiment kicked of with the hostage crisis. "death to America", ever wonder which state supports terrorism and where all the terrorists are hiding and what they intend to do with the nukes? Things have gone about as far as they can go in Baghdad city.

Let us rejoice to some good old time Beach Boy music.

 
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7028457539873894744


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on June 26, 2007, 02:16:01 PM
No I have never met any Iranians who did not want to die killing giant snake devils and barking dogs whatever.


One can't help but wonder how many of those type Iranians you've met.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on June 26, 2007, 11:19:05 PM
In his recent speech, the commander of Iran’s suicide units hinted that the theocratic state might also make use of long-term “sleeper cells” in the West for these operations.

In an earlier interview with Parto-Sokhan, Jaafari announced that more than 50,000 individuals had been enlisted in the Iranian military garrison opened to recruit and train volunteers for “martyrdom-seeking operations”.

He added that several military divisions of the “Lovers of Martyrdom Garrison” had already been established in several of Iran’s provinces and others were presently being formed to “confront threats by America and Israel”.

(Help send these primatives to paradise, LOMs)

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5752

Iran amputates man’s hand in public
Tue. 15 May 2007
Iran Focus

Tehran, Iran, May 15 – Authorities have chopped off the hand of a man in public in the western city of Kermanshah, a state-run daily reported on Tuesday.

“In order to deal decisively against those disrupting national security and order and to carry out the divine law, at exactly 4 pm on Sunday the sentence for Arash’s hand to be amputated in public was carried out in Kermanshah’s Jafaar-Abad Square”, wrote the hard-line daily Qods.

The report said that Arash, whose hand was chopped off, had taken part in 16 robberies.

The sentence had been upheld by Iran’s State Supreme Court, it added. It did not mention, however, which hand was amputated.

Iran’s Islamic penal system regularly practices centuries-old sentences for petty crimes, such as amputation of limbs, eye gouging, stoning to death, and throwing prisoners off a cliff in a sac.

 


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 02, 2007, 09:46:03 AM
Looks like the Ayatollahs have sent a message to the English people, forget what their animal nickname is. Get out of Iraq or meet with our LOMs (farting cats?).


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 02, 2007, 10:33:03 AM
You might say isn't it a bit premature to go blaming Iran just because the lead doctor came from there? Well the plan was a spectacular failure badly thought out typical of a production from the land of perverted logic. The important thing is the effort the mullahs say. The great diety will be pleased even if you kill no infidels and escape with the loss of only one or two limbs. Just do not expect any bigger than life posters  or eternal prayers.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 02, 2007, 10:48:42 AM
You might say isn't it a bit premature to go blaming Iran just because the lead doctor came from there? Well the plan was a spectacular failure badly thought out typical of a production from the land of perverted logic. The important thing is the effort the mullahs say. The great diety will be pleased even if you kill no infidels and escape with the loss of only one or two limbs. Just do not expect any bigger than life posters  or eternal prayers.
15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.  We should have bombed Riyadh, right?


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 02, 2007, 01:20:02 PM
You might say isn't it a bit premature to go blaming Iran just because the lead doctor came from there? Well the plan was a spectacular failure badly thought out typical of a production from the land of perverted logic. The important thing is the effort the mullahs say. The great diety will be pleased even if you kill no infidels and escape with the loss of only one or two limbs. Just do not expect any bigger than life posters  or eternal prayers.
15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.  We should have bombed Riyadh, right?

Actually the Saudi leadership has been one of the biggest supporters of the US in the Muslim mideast and have never proclaimed "death to America" or supported the use of suicidal death squads in a war against the infidels. OBL and his followers are considered outlaws and renegades in SA and have a price on their heads.


http://www.saudi-american-forum.org/Newsletters/SAF_Essay_03.htm
Terrorism as Mass Tort: Responsibility for 9/11
By Christopher H. Johnson
Introduction

To the extent that its 9/11 attacks were designed to drive a wedge between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and shake the Saudi regime, Al-Qaeda succeeded beyond it wildest dreams. Assailed at home for perceived over reliance on the United States, the Saudi regime is also being blamed abroad for having spawned and nourished 15 of the 19 hijackers.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 02, 2007, 01:29:11 PM
Iran is the only country that actively recruits "lovers of martyrdom", supports terrorism world wide, calls for "death to America" at every public gathering, and defies the UN on nuclear regulations.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 02, 2007, 01:39:48 PM
What difference does it make whether the Suadi Gov't. supports or opposes us?  You want to  blow Iran off the map with no connection except nationality to the alleged terrorist doctor.  So long UAE, Egypt, and Jordan as well.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 02, 2007, 04:21:51 PM
I never mentioned any other country. Just the one society that openly calls for "death to America", defies the UN by building nukes, and supports world terrorism. Not a blowing off the map, just a regime change. The entire area including Iraq would be stabilized by a different more modern, non-theocratic leadership. One that is more capable of accepting the realities and responsibilities of twenty-first century life.


http://globalpolitician.com/articledes.asp?ID=3023&cid=2&sid=4
Iran: It’s Time for a Progressive Revolution
Amil Imani - 7/2/2007
The thuggish revolution in Iran, better known as the Islamic Revolution of Iran, was anything but a progressive movement. This was a conscious assault on the 2500 year old Persian Empire and the progressive Iranian people in the twentieth century. This untimely revolution outrageously installed the most oppressive theocratic Islamic system known to the history of mankind.

(Amil Imani is an Iranian born, pro-democracy activist who resides in the United States of America. He is a poet, writer, literary translator, novelist and an essayist who has been writing and speaking out for the struggling people of his native land, Iran. Amil Imani's Home Page: www.amilimani.com. He also contributes to Family Security Matters, Islam Watch and American Thinker. )


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: martinbeck3 on July 03, 2007, 12:56:47 PM
Here we can observe how Iraq is transitting specially in the subject of women being unsubjected and democratized

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czlVpKgOAmQ


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: madupont on July 05, 2007, 03:03:36 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/04/london.alqaeda/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Militant: 'Those who cure you will kill you'
When I first looked at this title, I thought it was another one of those stories about "Hospital Infections" !
And, realized after reading it, had skipped over a UK firstPost yesterday referring to this subject. My guess is that for many decades, I have overlooked "the bad news" as some speculation about a problem still way off in the distance that I didn't have time to read about right now because I was too busy,exactly the way people are kept in the US, when the news was actually something nearly upon us that "We" were ignoring.
We think our leaders are taking care of it but they are ignoring as Bush did many times over because of an agenda not openly democratically discussed because that wouldn't be good for their(administration's ) private interests for whom we as citizens are something to be manipulated to their own ends.  While the media were hyping his war in the wrong place and the wrong time(just as his father had done before him,for the profit involved), the President's administration could have been bolstering Homeland Security --and diplomacy instead of the Yack machine of propoganda.  We have allowed our government to be stolen from us by private interests,  too busy to look after out interests as a society. History has been taught to us in such a way that we accept a "Paternalistic" template of  "conservative" government; and unfortunately, the other children who have accepted this for generations,perhaps centuries, from the British Empire and other empires both European and sometimes Asian before them in the historical past, have woken up to a nightmare in reality and are resisting dominion. While we are still asleep, at the wheel?
Story Highlights
Militant in Jordan told Anglican cleric: 'Those who cure you will kill you'

Warning now taken as reference to UK terror plot

Some of UK terror suspects recruited by al Qaeda in Iraq, sources say

Britain plots could be blueprint for attacks in U.S., official


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: jbottle on July 06, 2007, 02:14:41 AM
Enough combustion turns silicone to glass.  Sand, in a multicultural way is another way of saying "glass" to people who feel like acing where you live it you live on sand.  Nothing personal from South Carolina, we are sufficiently prepared.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 06, 2007, 11:37:33 PM
The doctors of death are on the go, with their strange mixture of science and voodoo. Schooled in all the essentials of the healing arts plus a love for the great sacrifice. Looking for the giant wounded snakes and howling dogs and at the end the paradise promised by their ayatollah. Into the pubs of merry old and the airport of the Scots with their pasteled Benzes and super jeep they go armed not with black bags but nails, petrol, explosives and some sort of incomprehendable timing device. 

No lifesize posters on Atta Blvd. or eternal prayers for these bunglers. No tripping the life fandango with houris. They were not trained here says the head of the lovers of martyrdom brigrade in Teheran. Must have been Jordan or Palestine, maybe Egypt or Pakistan.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 12, 2007, 08:47:46 PM
Quote
Actually the Saudi leadership has been one of the biggest supporters of the US in the Muslim mideast and have never proclaimed "death to America" or supported the use of suicidal death squads in a war against the infidels. OBL and his followers are considered outlaws and renegades in SA and have a price on their heads.

The Saudi leadership is a big supporter. They are also one of the most hated governments of all by their own citizens. A recent poll of Saudi men between the age of 25 and 41 showed that over 95% consider bin Laden's goal of punishing America for supporting Israel and building bases on holy land. Not all agree with his method, but share his vision.

Quote
Iran is the only country that actively recruits "lovers of martyrdom", supports terrorism world wide, calls for "death to America" at every public gathering, and defies the UN on nuclear regulations.

It isn't the country you should fear, but elements within. For that matter, Hizbollah and Al Qaeda are much more guilty of that, and neither are based in Iran.

Quote
I never mentioned [bombing] any other country. Just the one society that openly calls for "death to America", defies the UN by building nukes, and supports world terrorism. Not a blowing off the map, just a regime change. The entire area including Iraq would be stabilized by a different more modern, non-theocratic leadership. One that is more capable of accepting the realities and responsibilities of twenty-first century life.

Actually, you mentioned bombing Tehran. It isn't the society that calls for "death to America", defies the UN by building nukes, and supports world terrorism, it is a segment of the leadership, both political and religious. One might note that our ally Pakistan has nukes, supports and protects al Qaeda and other terrorist groups as well.

Come to think of it, don't we have nukes? Don't we support Israel? Why don't they qualify as terrorists? After over a thousand extraordinary renditions, some might think that Bush and Cheney qualify as well.

Were you aware that over one million Iranians held a candle light vigil after 9/11?


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 13, 2007, 08:39:46 AM
It isn't the country you should fear, but elements within. For that matter, Hizbollah and Al Qaeda are much more guilty of that, and neither are based in Iran.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-middle_east_politics/iran_hizbollah_3772.jsp

Ali Khamenei the "death to America" guy. A religious cult controlling through fear of the unknown, with snakes  and satans behind every rock. Another supreme ruler crackpot ruling by divine right leading his followers down a path of Nihilist self-destruction. Ending the control would be a good thing for modern civilization and the good people of Iran.

(Currently, for a substantial number of the world's Shi'a population and particularly for Hizbollah, that person is the Iranian spiritual leader, Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. He is known simply as Rahbar (in Farsi, "the leader" or "the one who shows the way"). Khamenei does not hold any official position, but he is the ultimate source of religious-political authority in Iran and by definition the one person that all Shi'a who believe in him as the jurisprudent must obey and follow. )

Could you kindly supply a reference to your most hated Saudi leadership, Al Qaeda ( From OBL hiding in his bunker crying for his children)?




Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 13, 2007, 06:50:20 PM

Could you kindly supply a reference to your most hated Saudi leadership,


Gladly.

State of War by James Risen

Nemesis by Chalmers Johnson

Blowback by Chalmers Johnson (you may not agree with his politics, but his attribution of facts is excellent)

Imperial Hubris by Anonymous (after Michael Scheuer retired as an intelligence analyst for the CIA, it was revealed that he was the author

Those are the most recent, the ones still on my bookshelf. One could include  numerous articles by both current and ex-intelligence personnel, along with many conversations with people I met and/or knew from my 20 years at Halliburton who worked in the Middle East, including S.A., Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, and India.

I felt the same way as you after the Iranian hostage crisis. Meeting a man who the Shah had had imprisoned (on a whim) made me delve deeper into trying to understand the reasoning behind the assholes who would do such things. I still don't, but do understand this: The driving force behind the radicalization of Islam is not jerks like OBL, Khomeini, Kamenei, and Ahmadinejad, but the perception of the actions of the US in supporting dictators and repressive governments such as in Saudi Arabia, and our unconditional support for Israel, whether they are right or wrong. The US government, with the help of American corporations, is making a bad situation worse.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 14, 2007, 02:30:47 AM
(The Saudi leadership is a big supporter. They are also one of the most hated governments of all by their own citizens. A recent poll of Saudi men between the age of 25 and 41 showed that over 95% consider bin Laden's goal of punishing America for supporting Israel and building bases on holy land. Not all agree with his method, but share his vision.)

I do not understand the statistic. or the statement  Yes they do not like Israel. But that does not mean they hate their government. Seems like a bogus statement. Wonder how the poll was worded. This article says the Saudi leadership is tremendously popular at home. Al qaeda BS, who are those authors?


http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/mamoun_fandy/2007/03/mamoun_fandy.html
The situation needs a fresh approach and maybe a new actor. This is where the Saudis enter. Riyadh does not have any of Egypt's inhibiting factors. In addition, it enjoys a surplus income of $70.7 billion dollars this year alone. It also has a new leadership that enjoys tremendous popularity at home. Because of this popularity, some Saudis believe that King Abdullah can take the Saudi system anywhere he wants on both external reform and foreign policy initiatives. King Abdullah could go down in history as the most popular king of Saudi Arabia, one Saudi told me. This aggressiveness and fresh blood is another advantage for Riyadh.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 14, 2007, 09:41:06 AM
Al qaeda BS, who are those authors?

James Risen is a journalist who specializes in the CIA. Chalmers Johnson is a professor who is acknowledged as one of the foremost experts on Asian affairs, who has written several books detailing the consequences of American involvement in Eastern and Middle Eastern affairs.

Michael Sheuer is a recently retired CIA intelligence analyst who specialized in tracking Bin Laden and al Qaeda. He probably has a better grasp of al Qaeda, OBL, and Middle Eastern politics than any non-Islamic around.

Of the three, Risen is the one most dependent on anonymous sources, being a journalist. The other two can back up their facts, and justify their opinions. Any who read their works with an open mind will come away with a new view of politics and problems in the Middle East.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 15, 2007, 05:53:57 AM
Self guilt and paranoia sell books but OBL is not well liked in his home country. If they got a hold of him I am certain they would amputate a few of his limbs publicly before chopping off his head.

Do 'Wahhabis' Like Osama Bin Laden?
"So my advice to al-Masari, al-Faqih, Bin Laden, and all those who traverse their way is to leave alone this disastrous path, and to fear Allah and to beware of His vengeance and His anger, and to return to guidance and to repent to Allah for what has preceded from them…"

- Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Bin Baz, Saudi Arabia


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 15, 2007, 09:13:54 AM
Self guilt and paranoia sell books but OBL is not well liked in his home country. If they got a hold of him I am certain they would amputate a few of his limbs publicly before chopping off his head.

Do 'Wahhabis' Like Osama Bin Laden?
"So my advice to al-Masari, al-Faqih, Bin Laden, and all those who traverse their way is to leave alone this disastrous path, and to fear Allah and to beware of His vengeance and His anger, and to return to guidance and to repent to Allah for what has preceded from them…"

- Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Bin Baz, Saudi Arabia


Bin Baz was a supporter of the al Saud house, so it makes sense that he would not like bin Laden. (He also issued a statement declaring the earth is flat - most Saudis know better) Having died in 1999, I suspect he isn't a good judge of what most Saudis believe currently.

Not being liked by his own government is a source of strength for OBL, since the house of Saud is considered to be puppets of the Americans by many Islamists.

Just to make this clear, I am not defending OBL or what he has done. I just think you need to know your enemy, understand what their goals are. So much of what has been written in the Western media and is generally accepted as truth is at odds with what is believed in the Middle East. I also think the government has underestimated him, and in many ways played right into his plans, beginning with the invasion of Afghanistan.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 18, 2007, 04:08:27 PM
Afghanastan was a great victory. 9-11 was vindicated to a small degree and one terror command state was wiped off the map. I am certain OBL never expected to spend the remainder of his days hiding in a spider hole crying for his children. I suppose he expected a Jimmy Carter response or maybe a long drawn out replay of the soviet excursion. Iraq would have been a positive if after Saddam was overthrown the US did not dismantle the army and take up sides with the primitives against the Bathists. Blunder after blunder since.

Anyway a good way to despose of a lot of cold war materiel and try out the new stuff.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 18, 2007, 10:17:24 PM
Afghanastan was a great victory. 9-11 was vindicated to a small degree and one terror command state was wiped off the map.

Dude, tell me you're kidding. We went in without securing the borders, allowing the majority of al Qaeda and the Taliban soldiers to cross into Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Iran. We took out their antiquated air force, which Cuba could have done just as easily, and took the capital. We installed a westernized puppet who is looked on with disdain by the majority of the population, and will be overthrown the day the US pulls out of Kabul. The tribal leaders who controlled the country still do, to the point that a $25 million dollar reward has had no effect in one of the poorest countries in the world. The population is even more conservative now than when we went in, and just biding their time until they can put the Taliban back in power, though it will probably be under another name. al Qaeda is stronger in Afghanistan now that it was then, as well.

That isn't a victory, my friend. We made the same exact mistakes the USSR (and Britain) made, and look what happened to them. When we blew the operation at Tora Bora, we lost what respect we had left from the Afghanis.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 19, 2007, 04:01:15 AM
What, we should not have attacked them because they were so primitive? We should have made nice after 9-11? That is what warfare is about winning, destroying your enemy. They had no air force they should not have flown planes into the WTC. Warlords over Talliban and OBL any day.  What same mistake?  The US was attacked and fought back. Yes they hate us so much. The giant snake devil thing started by Khomeini. The US would love to have Omar and OBL marching back. We should withdraw just to let that happen.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 19, 2007, 07:51:39 AM
What, we should not have attacked them because they were so primitive? We should have made nice after 9-11? That is what warfare is about winning, destroying your enemy. They had no air force they should not have flown planes into the WTC. Warlords over Talliban and OBL any day.  What same mistake?  The US was attacked and fought back. Yes they hate us so much. The giant snake devil thing started by Khomeini. The US would love to have Omar and OBL marching back. We should withdraw just to let that happen.

Of course we should have attacked - al Qaeda, not the country. The Taliban were/are assholes, but they weren't the enemy. The tribal leaders are the ones who did, and still do shelter OBL. You don't seem to understand, but we didn't destroy our enemy. We had one chance to get OBL at Tora Bora, and blew it.

The mistake was in not knowing our enemy. OBL had declared war on the US twice, had committed six acts of terrorism against us, and we had no plan of attack. Yet, in Bush's first Defense meeting as president, he already had a plan of attack against Iraq, who was not even a threat to us. We did not utilize the knowledge our intel community had about Afghanistan, nor did we utilize the experience of Britain and the USSR in Afghanistan before we invaded. We went in with arrogance and no plan.

Does that make sense to you?


Title: What could happen if U.S. pulls troops out of Iraq
Post by: liquidsilver on July 19, 2007, 09:34:33 AM
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003793904_iraqexit18.html


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: madupont on July 19, 2007, 04:32:59 PM
Do you ask yourself who writes Bush's material,"Kingdom of the Two Mosques" now, I ask you...?
I'll drop off a link later on that writer, will make you think twice.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: madupont on July 19, 2007, 05:41:43 PM
luee #27
tjaxon #28
luee #29

luee,  Not only did we not win in Afghanistan but we are not winning now. It is Britain, excuse me, they hate that, the UK which is holding the fort for us and, since they were merely Bush allies, with their ten year plan, they will probably be asking for their cut of the expense from what ever kids you  have (if not now, in future)while Bush is still laughing all the way to the bank.

tjaxon, we are not exactly well liked for our long drawn out invasiveness in saving them from the Russians.  They didn't expect to need somebody to have to save them from US. GHWB was there laying the groundwork for all this long before 9/11 ever took place.  If you  have any doubts whether his son W works in cahoots with the old man, and vice-versa, the first thing ordered for W's invasion of Iraq was to wipe out the oil infrastructure of the Russians in the first strike of Shock and Awe, which should let you know why the senior Bush was in Afghanistan in the first place.  What was his motive for saving Afghanis from the Russians?  That he was doing it just because he was "a good guy"? Since when?

The senior Bush only had use for bin Laden as long as he commanded forces that would push the Russians back .  We have had CIA through out the region east of there as far as Vietnam and the Indonesian Archipelago at Timor since Nixon was impeached after the end of the Vietnam war. As reinforcement in regard to the southeast Asian oil shelf, Daniel Patrick Moynihan had been sent in as ambasssdor to India; Mrs. Gandhi's government was very wary and acutely so as to undercover CIA  being sent in to her country as apparent tourists or post-Beatle Brahmacharyas.  Mrs. Gandhi was assassinated. I have yet to locate the book by Moynihan that covers his period of ambassadorship which I am told will provide me with clues as to the selling out of the Christians of East Timor in a blood bath by Indonesian "ordinaries" who I believe had stronger Muslim affiliation than we planned to acknowledge with the beginning of the Reagan administration as conducted by the senior Bush.

(Otherwise, we would have been unlikely to see a bombing of a tourist-type club in Bali frequented by servicemen on R and R from what are now all our major allies in the field. Nor would we have seen weapons by other means less destructive of property or real estate while killing the human enemy as of Christmas week 2005 on the southeast Asian oil shelf.)


Whose main problem(Bush,sr.),  in his lack of sensibility and his willingness to deputize (or shoud I say dupe-utize), delegate authority to local strongmen or apparent local strongmen, stuck in the craw when he took a mistep of allowing two rivals to compete for command. He was never forgiven for that and made himself hated by the one who survived.  "Arabs" per se, as a diminutive term as if they were some kind of generic brand, have a tremendous interest in retaliatory vengeance. In which case, judgment is brought with vindictiveness. It is a desert characteristic, nothing more, nor less. It is the other side of  the law of hospitality and brotherly conviviality; for it is only Western white men who delight in the canard,"My brother and I against our cousin, and I against my brother". Such is not the case.  They mourn more intensely than we the divisive opportunism that befalls all families and the kinship that is lost to them..

All I can say is that the US has done this over and over again in various parts of the world and what it does is create strong men. In the meantime the killing of the average Afghani child continues just as it does in Iraq.

Luee,  so luee if you want a better picture of what happened before the present botched up Bush administration, look up Stephen Coll's book on Afghanistan,the CIA,etc.etc. from when he was a correspondent in the field for the Washington Post.  He is a very reliable source of accurate information because he was exceptionally perceptive while being on the ground.  But if we continue at this rate, we are going to truly sorry that we patronized Pakistan as long as we have.

The bottom line on predictions of world population increase and resources to support them have predicated long ago, as far back as prior to the end of the Vietnam debacle, that there are only two empires likely to emerge for leadership, one is the Muslim world, and the other is Chinese. I won't say that we were never in the running as a world power(with a lot of wealth, presumably) but we botched it for over 25 years and blew the money besides with these back to back administrations and a slice of what appeared to be domestic economic harmony ala Clinton in between.


Title: Re: What could happen if U.S. pulls troops out of Iraq
Post by: tjaxon on July 19, 2007, 08:30:58 PM
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003793904_iraqexit18.html

Thanks for the link. Some interesting perspectives. Personally, I don't think that dividing Iraq into three separate countries is a bad idea, in fact may be the best way to give the Kurds, Shi'ites and Sunnis each an area to call their own, but suspect that unless they all agree to it the division would lead to chaos. I'm not sure they would agree to it, particularly if the idea was broached by the US.

"There's not a doubt in my mind that Osama bin Laden's one goal is to take over the Kingdom of the Two Mosques [Saudi Arabia] and re-establish the caliphate," or Islamic rule, that ended with the Ottoman Empire, said a former senior military official now at a Washington think tank. "It would be very easy for them to set up camps and run them in Anbar and Najaf" provinces in Iraq.

Several of the analysts I've read lately feel like OBL is perfectly happy with the idea of establishing the caliphate in Afghanistan, and it would certainly be easier than in Saudi Arabia. The house of Saud is too firmly entrenched, and Afghanistan's history of conservatism and success against foreign invaders make it a pretty good option.

Even OBL has denounced the Iraqi group claiming to be al Queda. Funny that Bush won't admit that.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 20, 2007, 12:23:07 AM
Perfect response to 9-11, invade and depose. If we leave Iraq a full scale civil war would likely ensue which would inevitably spill over to Iran. No matter who gets elected prez Obl is not going to step out of his spider hole and survive. This is part of the myth, a great victory in Manhattan over the giant satan by massacring innocent civilians in a surprise suicide kill attack.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 20, 2007, 05:45:08 AM
The US went to Omar the one eyed  bloodlusting crazy king of the Taliban and asked him to release OBL. He refused, said something like he is a guest and this is a sovereign nation. Of course he had to be wiped off the face of the earth. GW said it well anyone who  supported OBL was our enemy. Rewrite history, why doncha. A tribal chief who owned the mountain hideaway with tens of thousands of Talliban soldiers, lol.

To the primitives, it is better to show some force. They had fought the Russians to a standstill and felt invulnerable. Rude awakening.

Houris in space for suicide killers of secretaries. Maybe it was the promise of bigger than life posters or the eternal prayers. OBL crawling out of his hole and becoming king of Afghanistan is never going to happen. Please let him be a guest of the Ayatollahs and show his face. Calling for "death to America", supporting terrorism, being ignorant supertstitious  savages who like to blow up as  martyrs, being threats to a modern multicultural civilization,  as well as disobeying a UN resolution should be enough for a preventive maintanance visit from Uncle Sam. "they will hate us more" a scary thought!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu29F8NfRvI



Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: madupont on July 20, 2007, 03:57:25 PM
You really don't get it do you. Many of the most wanted when hearing about their connection to the WTC bombing said, "What the fuck?" because they were alive and hadn't been on any airplanes on 9/11.

But six years later who can keep track of any of it? The Brits are still asking why Guiliani is so into a keep it up policy for war? I guess it keeps the connection going even if the fire-fighters hated his attitude the day he became more readily identifiable across the nation  rather than the Big Pond USA.

A BOMBING that was all too readily expected in the parking garage --was that seven or eight year's earlier(?) was bravely taken in stride, literally, as Brooklyn residents walked home from their offices in the City
There were very apparently two men considered responsible but in the way of crime fighting wariness and investigative motivation those usual portrait photo sequences were processed to be displayed in  Post Offices across America; where I saw one, the day that a hurricane many years in advance of Katrina blew into the bayous of Louisiana where a lot of poor folk(Cajun) who work in NOLA have to also hitch a ride home in the sticks. The news was on the tv behind the postal workers counter and I said something about it, then turned to go out the door and walk a few blocks home. Recall distinctly particular dramatic faces on the Wanted sequence. This as I said was years prior to 9/11. Where do pictures like that come from? Visas, of course.

So, you could say that the US is a land of mystery.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: madupont on July 20, 2007, 04:08:11 PM
Also, there's this, "OBL crawling out of his hole and becoming king of Afghanistan is never going to happen. Please let him be a guest of the Ayatollahs and show his face."  Since he is a Yemenite descendent and Yemen is located on the  the Southern coast of Saudi Arabia, facts have to be faced that actual Arabs do not agree with the religious/political beliefs of Persians who speak Farsi in Iran. They have never liked each other since one was a "world" empire, and the other got rich later. That makes the scenario, you suggest , not really plausible.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: madupont on July 20, 2007, 05:25:17 PM
Indeed,"a preventive maintanance visit from Uncle Sam. "  should be a scary thought; and, I gather you think it scares whom exactly?  As it would cause a conflagration. And the beginning of a Nuclear World War.  If you  haven't heard, the UN achieved a step-down response from Iran. Thus if , "Uncle Sam" was to behave as usual (since he bears an unlikely resemblence to George W. Bush,jr.) at the command of Vice-Commander Cheney, most of your own aggravation  would arrive from Pakistan. And, unfortunately these folks in the White House would do that  to you because they can't think beyond  a successful election for their idiotic party. There are certain types of people supporting terrorism who are  dumber than "ignorant superstitious" mullahs in dark supersize turbans. Unfortunately, the latter are not particularly liked by sophisticated well-educated citizens ,whom we encouraged to be produced in a modern regime under the Shah,who have to tolerate the antiquated bullies who direct traffic with uniformed goons, whereas the former live somewhere around the Washington belt-way and are just as much ideologues with get rich schemes that don't include you.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 21, 2007, 09:03:43 AM
Also, there's this, "OBL crawling out of his hole and becoming king of Afghanistan is never going to happen. Please let him be a guest of the Ayatollahs and show his face."  Since he is a Yemenite descendent and Yemen is located on the  the Southern coast of Saudi Arabia, facts have to be faced that actual Arabs do not agree with the religious/political beliefs of Persians who speak Farsi in Iran. They have never liked each other since one was a "world" empire, and the other got rich later. That makes the scenario, you suggest , not really plausible.

Madupont, Luee doesn't understand that OBL does not want to be king. He thinks of himself as a holy warrior, obeying Allah's will, and wants only to influence Islam in the direction he believes is necessary.

Much like Bush (or at least, his handlers) believe's he is a holy warrior saving the Holy lands from the infidel rag heads.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 21, 2007, 10:53:20 AM
Yes by killing secretaries he won a great victory in Manhattan, he is nuttier than Khomeini with the hostage crisis. It is strange to hear from some supporters of OBL and his bravery. Is he barely alive in some spider hole in Pakistan, is he on the moon prancing with houris, is he a guest of the Republic of Iran with a basement apt. on Atta Blvd. next to the cemetary of the martyred children of the Iraqi war? Never got the chance to enjoy the fruits of his win over the Russians.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 21, 2007, 06:35:58 PM
Yes by killing secretaries he won a great victory in Manhattan, he is nuttier than Khomeini with the hostage crisis. It is strange to hear from some supporters of OBL and his bravery. Is he barely alive in some spider hole in Pakistan, is he on the moon prancing with houris, is he a guest of the Republic of Iran with a basement apt. on Atta Blvd. next to the cemetary of the martyred children of the Iraqi war? Never got the chance to enjoy the fruits of his win over the Russians.

How can one person be wrong so often?

..Yes by killing secretaries he won a great victory in Manhattan

He believes so. He drew us into an unwinnable battle. and now has ten times the anti-American feelings throughout the Middle East.

..he is nuttier than Khomeini with the hostage crisis

Khomeini was a member of a minority group, whose condemnation of all of Western society never resonated with the majority of Muslims. OBL has set out 6 specific goals:

1.  The end of all US aid to Israel, the elimination of the Jewish state,and the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel

2.  The withdrawal of all American and western armed forces from the Arabian peninsula

3.  The end of US/foreign intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq

4.  The end of US support or acceptance of oppression of Muslims in China, Russia, India and elsewhere

5.  Restoration of full Muslim control over the Islamic worlds energy resources 

6.  The replacement of US supported/protected Muslim regimes that do not govern by Islamic principles (as he sees proper).  Actually, the Taliban was the only one that did fit his criteria. All others are suspect, even though he gets much underground support from Pakistan and a few others.

These are each goals that resonate widely throughout the Middle East, even though most disagree with his methods of achieving them. Continued military presence is driving the population to even more conservative ideals, which is exactly what OBL wants.

..is he a guest of the Republic of Iran with a basement apt. on Atta Blvd.

As has been pointed out, this is highly unlikely, considering he is Salafi, and the Shia majority in Iran are not compatible with his beliefs. They probably aren't too happy about him giving the US an excuse to sit on their borders and make battle plans for Tehran, either.

..It is strange to hear from some supporters of OBL and his bravery.

I hope you are not intimating that I am a supporter of his. I just believe that one should know their enemy, and understand their goals, before engaging them. Too bad the current administration didn't bother.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: madupont on July 21, 2007, 09:21:43 PM
"he is nuttier than Khomeini with the hostage crisis."

Luee, nothing could be nuttier than GHWB with the hostage crisis. He left a record of his evil-doer deeds in several directions;yet, now being an old man, he had to have one of his sons to continue carrying out his plans for humanity.  How many more sons do we have to go?


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 21, 2007, 10:52:20 PM
Unwinnable! The Taliban were driven out of power in Afghanistan and OBL will spend the rest of his days in a spider hole if he is not blown up(please show your face), Saddam was overthrown. Together it took about 6 weeks and less than 300 casualties. The big blunder was staying in Iraq too long and helping the Ayatollahs and their followers. Iran needed and needs a good going over more than Iraq ever did with their "death to America chants" and their lover of martyrdom armies. Modern civilization is threatened. Go ahead tell me about 72 black eyed virgins and how perfect life was in the 7th century.



Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 22, 2007, 06:13:08 AM
This seems to have degenerated into a personal attack on GWB, who I cannot defend. His domestic policies leave much to be desired. His elitist tax breaks for the wealthy, plan for privatizing SS, support for the import of cheap labor, and support for the Ayatollahs in Iraq need some explaining. Not to mention the plan of selling of Port security to the Muhadeen and the cutting of services to the veterans. He has polarized the country as never before. Meanspirited, elitist, and inept are apt descriptions.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 22, 2007, 10:45:26 AM
Unwinnable! The Taliban were driven out of power in Afghanistan and OBL will spend the rest of his days in a spider hole if he is not blown up(please show your face)

It is now, though if we had done it correctly, it did not have to be.  If we had had a plan of attack ready, and engaged al Qaeda and the Taliban within 48 hours of the 9/11 attacks, we could have eliminated the majority of their troops and had a good chance of getting OBL. We also would have gained the respect of   most of the Islamic world, who understood and accepted our motivation.

Instead, we wait until we can get approval and supposed support (permission) from our allies, giving the majority of the enemy to slip into Iran, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, etc. In exchange for the supposed support, we allow the Russians unconditional latitude in repressing the Muslims in Chechnya, the Chinese unconditional latitude in oppressing (actually eliminating) the Uighurs, and India the unconditional latitude to oppress the Muslims in Kashmir, thereby confirming OBL's claim that the US is against all of Islam anywhere. What did we win?

 Saddam was overthrown. Together it took about 6 weeks and less than 300 casualties.

So what? Saddam was not our enemy, had nothing to do with 9/11, and no WMD. We have lost more troops than what we lost on 9/11, have killed an average 30,000 Iraqis a month, spend 13 billion a month of borrowed money, and have further fractured and endangered our relations with every Middle Eastern country except Israel (more fodder for al Qaeda's propaganda).

And Satan, laughing, spreads his wings...

The big blunder was staying in Iraq too long and helping the Ayatollahs and their followers.

The big blunder was in not being prepared to take out al Qaeda and OBL, after he had twice declared war on the US, and committed 6 acts of war against us, and then trying to institute a system of government that violates the religious beliefs of all Muslims (whether Sunni, Shia, Salafi, etc) that they don't want, and don't need. The blunder is complicated by the arrogance  of Americans who  think that our way is the only way to live, and ignorant of the goals and aspirations of other cultures.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: whiskeypriest on July 22, 2007, 11:18:48 AM
tjax -

Not that I, generally, have much positive to say about Bush, but anyone who thinks that we could have gone into Afghanistan in any major, effective way without the permission and cooperation of countries like Pakistan, Uzbekistan and Russia knows nothing of logistic or geography.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: madupont on July 22, 2007, 01:55:00 PM
Do you mean that after both the senior Bush and George,jr. had entertained the Taliban in Texas, they could not enter Afghanistan just because the Talibanis snarled when they went down the side-walk and they didn't bang the door because Poppy Bush still had one hand on it to wave goodbye to the other.?

Please read Steve Coll on this pre-operative period. 

They waved because they already knew where bin Laden was; it was kind of obvious by the pattern of attacks that were taking place moving eastward from North Africa and then east of the straits of Oman during the Clinton Administration while they had --the Bushes, Rove at the office, and Ken Star,et al were pestering the living bejesus out of Clinton in order to get him impeached so the Democratic Party would lose the 2000 election.

My son had previously said to me but probably definitely in that period of 2000 Winter to 200l that he was most definitely grateful that he had gotten his service duty out of the way almost two decades earlier when you were on constant tour cruise around the world and he had gone through the the straits at that time (because of course there was an Iran-Iraq war in the period of which I remained as oblivious as possible, as he then disembarked on the West Coast and not in Annapolis as we had supposed, so here I was  relocated on the East Coast, as Poppy Bush became President and began the Gulf War, which I watched every morning on tv as Iraq shelled Israel with scuds -- my mother had just come back from there previously from some touristy-religiously motivated reasoning of her own as the thing to do  given a little leeway beyond five years before you die,old people do not always think this way but you would have had to have known my mother to have the faintest inkling of what she considered "the thing to do",perhaps you have one at home like that yourself?).

But,tjaxon, I wanted to remind you that,  in your previous post when you said,"eliminating) the Uighurs, I did recently post an article from the nytimes.com on the Uighurs who are being held in Guantanomo -- in virtually no-mans-land.  In case you didn't see it, I will haul it out from somewhere I must be keeping it, so you can take a look at it.  The Chinese who obviously, at least to me, tricked the Bush administration into believing that the Chinese were cooperatively getting tough on Muslim "terrorists" among their own minorities, were not alone in their perfidy against anybody who was not Han in the majority(which you could translate in the old days, as like: "Superior being"). Likewise the Bush administration determined a policy in regard to Guantanamo that picked up Uighurs who now have no place to go. Bottom line of course both Chinese and Bushes(plural) want the same oil fields up in Uighur territory.  So we shall see what we shall see.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: madupont on July 22, 2007, 02:10:08 PM
TJAXON

CHINESE LEAVE GUANTANAMO FOR ALBANIAN LIMBO

http://tinyurl.com/3dbaab


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 22, 2007, 02:41:16 PM
tjax -

Not that I, generally, have much positive to say about Bush, but anyone who thinks that we could have gone into Afghanistan in any major, effective way without the permission and cooperation of countries like Pakistan, Uzbekistan and Russia knows nothing of logistic or geography.

My understanding is that Russia and Uzbekistan had both already offered logistical help. In the wake of 9/11, I find it hard to believe that any ally (and most neutral countries) would have not approved or provided assistance in staging a rapid response raid.

My main point is that after the experiences the US had already had with al Qaeda, it was negligent to not have a response plan in place, particularly when they already had one in place for Iraq.  Taking so long to mount a response allowed the primary targets too much opportunity to escape.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 23, 2007, 09:22:31 PM
Big difference from it was a mistake to go into Afghanistan to we should have gone in quicker and with more firepower. To not go in would have been a blunder like no other in recent history.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 24, 2007, 07:45:37 AM
Big difference from it was a mistake to go into Afghanistan to we should have gone in quicker and with more firepower. To not go in would have been a blunder like no other in recent history.

Actually, I think we may have been better off not going in at all than doing it the way we did. Either way, the blunder has been eclipsed by our invasion of Iraq.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: chauncey.g on July 24, 2007, 09:25:01 AM
there are plenty of potential blunders to go around.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis84.html

The Bush Administration may be preparing to lash out at old ally Pakistan, which Washington now blames for its humiliating failures to crush al-Qaida, capture its elusive leaders, or defeat Taliban resistance forces in Afghanistan.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 24, 2007, 09:32:26 AM
No Taliban in power, no Saddam in power, no OBL bragging about his great victory in Manhattan, a strong and stinging response to the savagery of 9-11, very nice. The mistake was staying and helping the misguided followers of the Ayatollahs rather than ending the refrain by hanging a sharp right down Attah Blvd. to terror command central. What are the talks in Baghdad with these death worshipping primitives going to accomplish? A perfect time for a bombing mission on Qom. Maybe we can hold the emmisaries captive in guatmo until they agree to move all the lovers of martyrdom out of Iraq and Lebanon.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Dzimas on July 24, 2007, 09:40:33 AM
It was Bush's mistake to get in bed with Musharraf to begin with.  The guy is an even bigger political opportunist than Bush, and has taken full advantage of the most favored nation status the US heaped upon Pakistan when it decided to go to war with Afghanistan.  But, ultimately the blame falls on the Bush administration for having no real strategy beyond full-scale invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. 


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: tjaxon on July 24, 2007, 10:36:34 PM
there are plenty of potential blunders to go around.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis84.html

The Bush Administration may be preparing to lash out at old ally Pakistan, which Washington now blames for its humiliating failures to crush al-Qaida, capture its elusive leaders, or defeat Taliban resistance forces in Afghanistan.

Jesus, brother, I'm glad they can only draft you once. By the time we invade both Iran and Pakistan, on top of Afghanistan and Iraq, they'll have to draft up to 60 year olds to have enough cannon fodder.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 24, 2007, 11:55:42 PM
A positive survey:

Support for terrorism slumps in Muslim countries
Malaysia Sun
Tuesday 24th July, 2007 



A comprehensive report says support for terrorist tactics has fallen in most Muslim-majority countries.

http://story.malaysiasun.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/b8de8e630faf3631/id/267777/cs/1/


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: chauncey.g on July 25, 2007, 09:23:58 AM
Jesus, brother, I'm glad they can only draft you once. By the time we invade both Iran and Pakistan, on top of Afghanistan and Iraq, they'll have to draft up to 60 year olds to have enough cannon fodder.

I'm reminded of Kubrick's Paths of Glory. Some old bastids were cast in that flick.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: chauncey.g on July 25, 2007, 09:42:14 AM
A comprehensive report says support for terrorist tactics has fallen in most Muslim-majority countries.

http://story.malaysiasun.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/b8de8e630faf3631/id/267777/cs/1/

From the article...

Only in the Palestinian territories have seventy per cent of Palestinians said suicide bombing is justified.

Across the Muslim world, majorities worry that the United States could become a military threat to their country, including 93 per cent of Bangladeshis, 77 per cent of people in NATO ally Turkey, and 73 per cent of Pakistanis.


So if we hang around Iraq long enough, invade Iran and maybe Pakistan, ya think that 70% figure will become the norm? Makes me wonder.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on July 25, 2007, 11:52:29 PM
You would think the primitives would figure out that suicide bombing is not acceptable in the 21st century. That people would get ticked off. That 72 black eyed houris was a myth made to appeal to the purient interests of 7th century goat herders and date farmers. The stick and carrot principle carried to an extreme. Steal and get your hand amputated  in a public gathering, ah but give up your life for your Mullah and blow up some disbelievers and you are guaranteed  a sexlife in the hereafter, bigger than life weatherproof posters, a DVD goodbye message, and eternal prayers. The giant devil is coming for you with his friends the little devil and the barking dog.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: martinbeck3 on August 06, 2007, 01:58:19 PM
My nephew Manuel visited the US in March.He gave his address a his cousin´s in Florida.Then he returned to Arg. A month later a letter arrived from the USA army offering the USA citizenship if he would join the army in Iraq.Of course he politely declined such generosity though his cousin strongly recommended Manuel do so after breaking his balls during a whole month and in fear of a new visit.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: josh on August 07, 2007, 09:51:14 PM
As the Brits pull out of Basra, once the poster child for success in Iraq, into the power vacuum is stepping...

Nobody.

This is not a place in which the insurgency was strong. This is not a place with the religious wars of Baghdad. There are few if any Sunni present. And yet, it is fast becoming as violent as any area of Iraq. Why?

Because there are three different Shiite factions fighting for power.

So long as the people of Iraq will fight with anybody available, including themselves, nobody can save them from anarchy - because they do not want to be saved. (By "people of Iraq" I do not have to mean the raw majority - merely the majority of those taking action.)


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: elportenito on August 12, 2007, 05:40:23 PM
..this is all Spanish to You:


"Denuncian que la brecha entre ricos y pobres se amplía en el mundoUn informe de Amnistía Internacional sostiene que mientras en los '90 una persona rica tenía 30 veces más que una pobre hoy la relación es de 130 a 1. Y que al menos 1.500 millones de personas viven con menos de un dólar al día. En tanto, un funcionario de la ONU aseguró que lo que gasta EE.UU. en la ocupación de Irak y Afganistán sería suficiente para "acabar 2 veces con la pobreza en el planeta".


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: josh on August 12, 2007, 10:40:37 PM
..this is all Spanish to You:

I believe the title of this thread is "in Transition," rather than "in Translation."

So, having read this quote from you in two places (so far), would you be kind enough to tell those of us whose primary and non-primary languages are not Spanish what it is that you have said?


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: madupont on August 13, 2007, 02:46:45 AM
He probably won't as he has been the official court jester for quite a long time after he virtually presented his resume that he was by far the best suited for the job which we had overlooked.  It is a regular chess game around here.   I saw a pretty good translation or maybe it was just a reply, earlier this evening, somewhere in the next section; maybe Bush Administration, maybe Campaign Trail, maybe Immigration but in any case from theCap0.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: elportenito on August 13, 2007, 08:58:32 AM
madupont:

""Denuncian que la brecha entre ricos y pobres se amplía en el mundoUn informe de Amnistía Internacional sostiene que mientras en los '90 una persona rica tenía 30 veces más que una pobre hoy la relación es de 130 a 1. Y que al menos 1.500 millones de personas viven con menos de un dólar al día. En tanto, un funcionario de la ONU aseguró que lo que gasta EE.UU. en la ocupación de Irak y Afganistán sería suficiente para "acabar 2 veces con la pobreza en el planeta".


The gapp between rich and poor widens, Amnesty International reports that while in the 90's a rich person owned 30 times more than a poor one, today the rate is 130 to 1. And that more than 1.5 billion people lives with less tha one dollar a day. Meanwhile a UN oficial stated that what the USAspend in the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan would be enough to twice end world poverty.






See.....and not even one sommersault.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: josh on August 13, 2007, 10:55:42 AM
Thank you for the translation.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Donotremove on August 13, 2007, 11:41:05 AM
Come om, Elportentia, at least one back flip, pul-eeze?

My dear brother.  The disparity between rich and poor has been ever thus from recorded time.  It's why the rich build forts and the poor carve out battering rams.  The gathering of riches is the root cause of most wars (maybe all of them if you walk the cat back to the big bang of root cause,) and the prime reason for poverty (don't anybody scream here--think about it.)

How to wrest the power (or at least contain it) to utterly control resources (ie., money, land, distribution, mineral rights, etc.,) from governments, corporations, and individuals, with everyone else taking the hind tit?  Ah, there's the rub. Can (some) altruism lie down with Capitalism?


Title: Modern Philanthropy: Bring Out the Consumer Brands
Post by: liquidsilver on August 13, 2007, 11:52:11 AM
http://www.onphilanthropy.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6729


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Donotremove on August 13, 2007, 12:27:57 PM
LiquidSilver, thanks for that link.  Did you click on the comment: how to make a better pan-handler sign?  Oh me, the marketing of it all. :)


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: elportenito on August 16, 2007, 07:00:20 AM
donotremove:

"Can (some) altruism lie down with Capitalism?"

...you mean the sheep and the lion of olde parable. Now you're getting biblical....?!?



...donot, remember the begining of The Exorcist?.....remember those scenes in Iraq?....rmemember the staue?. These unfortunates slaughtered recently in northern Iraq are they worshipers of that pre-Islamic (and I would say pre-Christian) deity?


Don't we need a bit of atheistic fresh air in this world?


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Donotremove on August 16, 2007, 12:10:59 PM
Hot damn, Boca, don't take a steam roller and mash my metaphor flat.  Sheesh.

I have never watched the film The Exorcist.  I do remember the statue of Saddam coming down (later we find out the whole thing was staged by our military and not spontaneous by Iraqis at all.)

There's only 500,000 of those in the world, and 250 of them, innocents, were murdered by fire bombs the other day.  I don't know what/whom they worship, but I can't see that they were doing anything other than going about their business.

I'm Agnostic, Boca.  But I'm not in the slightest against everyone or anyone believing whatever suits their mindset and/or culture (see voodoo, etc.,).  Except if such worship causes others harm of any kind.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: elportenito on August 17, 2007, 10:10:39 AM
donotremove:

"I have never watched the film The Exorcist."  then DO watch it now that I've mention it,


"  I do remember the statue of Saddam coming down (later we find out the whole thing was staged by our military and not spontaneous by Iraqis at all.)"

I remember this white haired man, dressed in a dirthy kaftan, he was hitting a poster sized picture of Saddam with his sandal-like shoe, anything you put a shoe on  in the Muslim world is an insult to the object touched by the shoe.The man was saying something in Arabic, like those sound bits on a loop in cheap movies, the man was repeating mechanicaly the same words, I couldn't understand what he was saying, but after a while you could repeat what he was saying, this was on a  dusty road outside baghdad (I know there's an "h" there somewhere), and the camera was fixed on him for a long while as to reinforce the message= "look how happy they are now that we've liberated them"


We are free to believe or not believe. But medicine should be the privillege of trained doctors, and civil engineering of trained engineers.

If religion interferes with any of the two we're in trouble. I mean is nice to be nice, but you can let the madhouse being run by the inpatients.



Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on August 27, 2007, 01:03:36 PM
Iraq, Iran, Vietnam, 9-11, Gulf of Tonkin, just a mixed up jumble to our fearless leader. In simplistic terms Ho Chi Minh good, Saddam bad. 9-11 real, Gulf of Tonkin phoney. Helping the Shiites into power in the vacuum bad. Building a coalition government made up of Sunis, Kurds, and the primitives will not work. How would the government work here if 60% of the legislature were under the control of Ayatollahs. In the end Vietnam and Iraq have become the same, two lost causes. Deposing the Tyrant was a worthy and justifiable effort that somehow became misdirected. The incursion into Vietnam was a terrible idea from the start.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Donotremove on August 27, 2007, 02:23:27 PM
No outsider is going to get anywhere dealing with Iraq until they accept the fact the Iraq is NOT a country.  The people occupying the area now known as Iraq are tribes that are comfortable with warlords and militias.  And, above all, these people are Muslims, BUT NOT OF THE SAME SECT.  And none of the sects mix.  Period.  Except when a warlord of the caliber of Sadaam Hussein (like Stalin for the Russian satilite countries that became the USSR) comes along and uses mass force to produce quasi secularism (Turkey today but in the process of falling apart).  This use of force is what Al Quaeda(sp?) is using to herd Iraqis into Wahabiism.  And looking towards an Middle East Califate end game.  The big fly in the Iraq/Turkey ointment is the Kurds.

The middle East is run by powerful families.  I can't think so many hundreds of years in the future when any such thing as democratic government would arise anywhere in the area.  Even Israel is not democratic.  It only has the trappings of democracy.  Israel is a religious state.  India is not as democratic as it is religious.

The citizens of the U.S. are losing their democracy to religion as we speak.  Pause here for howls of denial.  If environmental contingencies do not kill us off first, the world is heading towards another dark ages.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: josh on August 27, 2007, 07:20:34 PM
Even Israel is not democratic.  It only has the trappings of democracy.  Israel is a religious state.  India is not as democratic as it is religious.

Explain, please, why a country cannot be both officially religious and also a democracy (or at least a republic).


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on August 28, 2007, 03:13:00 AM
Iran is the only self declared theocracy. Def.-1 : government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided
2 : a state governed by a theocracy
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/theocracy
That is why they still talk in terms of devils and wild animals, so frightening. Ignorant, superstitious, primitives  who are strictly guided by a 7th century viewpoint when life was cheap and there was danger lurking behind every palm tree. Amazingly they chose as a people to go back and give up their free will and intellect to the mangods.

They are a threat to modern civilization and will never accept multiculturism. Lovers of martyrdom, oh boy and Bush wants them as part of the government in Iraq! In his simplicity all religion is good and all taxes, specially to the wealthy, bad.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Donotremove on August 28, 2007, 11:02:39 AM
Trappings, Josh, trappings.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Dzimas on August 28, 2007, 11:17:57 AM
Iran is not a theocracy.  The government by and large runs in a secular fashion, or at least did until Ahmadinejad came to power.  Iran has a parliament and a president, which make most of the decisions, but are ultimately answerable to the supreme leader, Ali Khamenei.  It seemed Khamenei pretty much took a back seat until things heated up over Afghanistan and later Iraq.  Understandably, Iran began to worry that the US might be seeking to broaden its authority in the region and things turned very conservative very quickly in Iran.  The conservatives took control of the assembly after the elections in early 2000, and  Ahmadinejad rode into power based on his conservative views.  Under the Khatami administration, Iran was moving in a more progressive direction. 


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Donotremove on August 28, 2007, 12:51:37 PM
Trappings, Dzimas, trappings.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: josh on August 28, 2007, 03:04:16 PM
Trappings, Josh, trappings.

As explanations go, that's a tad sparse for my tastes.

However, I'll bite.

So, England is neither a democracy nor a republic by your definition.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Donotremove on August 28, 2007, 05:36:30 PM
Josh, I, so far, have been speaking about Middle Eastern countries with majority Muslim populations (and I include all countries with majority Muslim populations wherever they are.)  As for the UK and the European Union (and others as well) there hovers the corporate military industrial complex in collusion with helpless governments denying the people any real say over their lives.  Citizens exist everywhere, now, as units feeding the requirements of said corporate military industry, and other corporate needs with only the illusion of democracy.  Switzerland, Iceland, and Holland being examples of those countries which have escaped.

The tranference of wealth from the poor to the rich has always been with us, but the scale of the transfer with only the illusion of any legal or social redress looms large today (some of which is due to increased world populations).  And, the poor is anyone earning $50K US or less.

All of the above is only my opinion, and some of it belongs in other discussions.  My conclusions are drawn from long time reading on the subject.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: josh on August 28, 2007, 06:09:55 PM
Josh, I, so far, have been speaking about Middle Eastern countries with majority Muslim populations (and I include all countries with majority Muslim populations wherever they are.)

If you had not included Israel, which does not have a majority Muslim population, then I would not have asked my question. It seemed to me that you made an overgeneralization, but I wanted to know what you meant, because you might not have.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Donotremove on August 29, 2007, 02:54:04 AM
Josh, sorry.  Sometimes when I get on my high horse the wording of my mini essays gets muddled and unclear.  Sometimes I realize it and go back to do some editing.  :)

As for Israel, I do feel it is a theocracy disguised as a Democracy (all the bells and whistles--trappings).  Why?  I don't know.  Israel can be anything it wants.  And has.  One thing this Democratic veneer is going to spawn is an ultra conservative openly theocratic government when the old line Orthodox finally tip the population scales (and they are working at it, one baby at a time, thinking in the long term, willing to be patient.)

But, back to Iraq.  We have built (or are in the process of building) 14 military installations in that pitiful country.  It will take many bunker buster bombs to get us out of there no matter who is elected to congress or the White House in 2008.  The corporations (miltary and otherwise) won't allow it.  Talk about the swarming of the lobbyists.  It will make the efforts of the NRA look like earning a Boy Scout badge.

And now that France is talking about Iran being a bother, I am more convinced than ever that Bush is going to try something before we are rid of him.  I mean, the French president comes for a visit, then, later, back home, he comes out with his Iran statement. Hmm . . .


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Detective_Winslow on August 29, 2007, 03:04:16 AM
"The corporations (miltary and otherwise) won't allow it." 


Please clarify...




(http://stix1972.typepad.com/stix_blog/images/cutnrunmd.jpg)


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Donotremove on August 29, 2007, 04:01:25 AM
Josh, on the other hand, read this from the Op/Ed page of the NYT today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/29/opinion/29miles.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

From Paul Hawken's Blessed Unrest: How The World's Largest Movement Came Into Being And Why No One Saw It Coming

"The divisions in the world today have no better analog than the Green and Red Zones of Baghdad.  Armored fencing, earthen berms, sensors, Humvees, and machine guns defend the Green Zone, four square miles of a leafy green, irrigated desert surrounded by a twelve foot concrete blast wall.  Within are villas, the Al-Rashid Hotel, bowling alleys, karaoke bars, fast food restaurants, and the former presidential complex of Saddam Hussein.  There, employees of the Coalition of the Willing do their work alongside American military commanders, Iraqi ministers, and American coporations such as Bechtel and Halliburton.  They feed at cafeterias that offer pork morning, noon, and night--sausages, bacon, pork chops, hot dogs--a constant affront to the Muslim staff and Iraqi secretaries and translators.  Women jog down boulevards in tank tops and shorts while Iraqi children sell pornographic DVDs to soldiers at the bazaar.  Bars are packed, administrative assistants are known to double up as hookers on their second shift, and armed military contractors lounge on cushions at the Green Zone Cafe sucking on hookas.  Annual room, board, and office expenses run $300,000 per person, not counting six figure salaries, travel, and the costs of military protection.

Outside its perimeters is a traumatized city of 5.6 million residents, with open-air markets, mosques, neighborhoods, schools, tea stalls, and a roiling civil war fought with car bombs, beheadings, and executions.  The Red Zone is noisy and crowded, pervaded by fear and anger.  The two zones mirror the global split between those who rule and the majority who don't."

I will add to this sorry litany the fact that the majority of the people living in Baghdad do not have drinkable water, and the electricity is often only on if bribes are paid to militias that have seized the electrical stations.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on August 30, 2007, 10:43:29 AM
Woo, woo, happy times in the Green Zone. Great analogy defining the differences between  being an ignorant superstitious primitive and a modernist.  Hookers, bowling alleys and Coca Cola, oh my. He has got the fear and anger part right anyhow. Not pork chops, tank tops, and alcoholic beverages, how immoral! The wounded snake devils will be punished by having their bowels removed, it is so written. Sounds like peanuts envy.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on September 01, 2007, 12:26:52 PM
Anyway the primitives saw modern life through the green zone window, the bowling alleys, the modern hospital, Coca cola and after due deliberation decided the modern object the grand Ayatollah and his children could make the best use of was an atomic bomb. Mass suicide killing on a national scale. The voices had spoken.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on September 01, 2007, 01:57:42 PM
The latest from one of the not grand Ayatollahs;

US abusing Christianity to protect "Zionism"

Saturday, September 01, 2007 - ?2005 IranMania.com
 
  Related Pictures
 
 
 
LONDON, September 1 (IranMania) - The Bush administration is propagating a version of Christianity that is simply not based on the teachings of Prophet Jesus but in tune with Zionist interests, a senior preacher said, Iran Daily reported.

Substitute prayer leader of the capital, Ayatollah Mohammad Kashani told the weekly congregation at Tehran University campus that ?Based on this (Bush) mentality, the Jews must gather in Palestine and then in the course of some revolution two thirds of them will get killed.

Those who survive would witness the reappearance of Jesus (PBUH).

Therefore, they are keen on bringing the entire Jewry in the world together in Palestine, which is definitely a move rooted in political and satanic plots. But the project is being sold in the framework of hope and reappearance of Messiah, IRNA quoted him as saying.

He said George W. Bush is ?the standard bearer of such mentality. He is loathed in the United States to the extent that the mentality he supports, too, has very limited support.?

Echoing the views of a growing number of social experts and religious figures in the West, the ayatollah said ?The people in the United States and Europe today are living wretched lives.

Addressing the western world, he concluded, ?Your youth at the end of the world would be leading such difficult lives that you hardly would be able to ignore. The Prophet of Islam 14 centuries ago had warned the Christians that such times would eventually come.?
 
(the little wounded snake devils, He went to Qom University and majored in satanology.) 

http://www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCode=53917&NewsKind=Current%20Affairs


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: elportenito1 on September 05, 2007, 10:33:41 AM
donotremove: I don't know why you insist....as a friend used to say:

"people is not bad, is simply that they lack imagination"


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: elportenito1 on September 05, 2007, 10:40:05 AM
Letters to the editor, The Sydney Morning Herald, September 5,2007

Helping one's mates shouldn't involve criminality

John Howard has finally declared his hand on Iraq ("We're in Iraq for US, says PM as Bush flies in", September 4). The logic of this admission is that it doesn't matter that we helped create the disaster that is now Iraq but that you should always support your friend if it is in our national interest. I wouldn't have thought it was in our national interest: to be joined at the hip to George Bush; to have invaded Iraq based on flawed intelligence; to have ignored international opinion and the United Nations; to invade a country that was no threat to us; and to continue to be party to the continuing casualties in Iraq.

I would have thought a true friend would offer wise counsel rather than simply follow a misguided, deluded, unlawful and destructive policy advocated by a powerful friend.

Our less than honest Prime Minister has convinced the electorate on four occasions that he should be returned. A fifth will elude him. History will not be kind to Howard and nor should it.

Richard Egan Paddington

The Howard Government has sunk to an all-time low by politicising our military in Iraq in order to justify a continued presence in that unfortunate country. As a bit player in the last misadventure Australia followed the US into in the 1960s and '70s, I find it abhorrent that this Government can so shamelessly use these men and women to paper over what has become an embarrassment and election issue.

Dallas Fraser Mudgeeraba (Qld)

Tony Blair managed to get his people out of Guantanamo Bay when John Howard could not. Britain is currently withdrawing its troops from Iraq when Howard will not. Now NSW taxpayers get to pay millions of dollars so Howard can invite his old mate George Bush over to play. When will we gain some advantage from Howard's constant attempts to build an "alliance" with Bush?

Janis Donnelly-Coode Penrith

Can somebody remind the Minister of Defence that the Australian Defence Forces exist to fight for all Australians, those intending to vote for Kevin Rudd as much as those intending to vote for John Howard. And since when do the troops, how ever supposedly "angry", tell their leaders where they will or won't fight and when they'll withdraw? We're still a way yet from being run by the military aren't we, Minister Nelson?

Garry Bickley Elizabeth Downs (SA)

Brendan Nelson should tell our troops in Iraq that John Howard has just changed their job description. It is no longer to restore some kind of normality to a society that our invasion destroyed but it is simply to keep us in George Bush's good books.

John Truman Chatswood


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on September 05, 2007, 07:22:21 PM
So if you cannot trust your elected officials who can you trust? The mangods from Qom university of course.  Well versed in good and evil and telling the bad animals from the good animals. Can find devils with little trouble. Love the spectacle of a public hanging.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on September 06, 2007, 11:56:02 PM
Libs, Neocons, no such thing. Just holy warriors or dead criminals.


http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12304
Iran hangs 17 in one day
Wed. 05 Sep 2007
Iran Focus

Tehran, Iran, Sep. 05 – Iranian authorities hanged 17 men on Wednesday, the latest in a spate of group executions.

State media said that the 17 were hanged in the north-eastern province of Khorassan Razavi.

“Following legal procedures, 17 individuals were hanged for drug smuggling in Khorassan Razavi province this morning”, state television reported.

Iranian authorities routinely execute dissidents on bogus charges such as armed robbery and drug smuggling.
 


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Donotremove on September 07, 2007, 01:28:28 AM
Elportentia, sad to say your John Howard is in bed with Bush The Younger.  Any chance of getting rid of him next election and getting back on track?

I was watching a documentary on the International History channel about Pinochet, and Margaret Thatcher was an apologist for him right up to the very end.  I'm a non believer, but if there is a Hell I hope Pinochet landed in the hottest part.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: elportenito1 on September 07, 2007, 09:27:16 AM
Donotremove: We have Dubya sleeping at our place, so to say, he's actualy minutes away from our place, Australia seems to be losing her sence of humour, yesterday a group of comedians from a tv show called The Chaser, who do satyre of current affairs etc, penetrated the thick security meassures, which include a wire fence some 10 feet high and messuring some five kilometres ( let's say 5000 yards) this fence isolates the area in downtown Sydney where  APEC Conference's 21 leaders are meeting andstaying. The comedians hired a limousine and posed as the ambassador from Canada, and with another vehicle behind, and some of the comedians wearing suits and impersonating special  agents, drove thru the checkpoints and got some one hundred yards from where Dubya was. One of the comedians in the car was dressed as Osama Bin Laden, mock beard included.

Now the police chieff is telling the media he is "very angry", more like very humilliated. One of the comedians told the press "it could have been worse,it could have been Alkaida" , I don't think that will go well with the police chieff.

Seriousness and self-importance is the main characteristic of dictatorships. You can't laugh at a dictatorship.

The comedians will be taken to court now, they may end up in jail for breeching this and that and the other one too.  Just like in Argentina during the military dictatorships, only in English.


LAUGHTER VERBOTEN!!!!



(....come to Australia  Pik Botha, all is forgoten..)


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on September 07, 2007, 10:53:30 AM
Didn't some of those Drs. of death from London have pals down under? Masquerading as an Al Qaeda hit squad what a yolk. Strange how people can be so very touchy about that. Comedic geniuses can do prison shows in quatmo.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: elportenito1 on September 12, 2007, 10:52:31 AM
luee:  Commedy, a hard job in Australia:


"The NSW Police Minister, David Campbell, and the Police Commissioner, Andrew Scipione, lambasted The Chaser over the highly embarrassing security breach, claiming that they put themselves and their crew in danger from being shot.

But Licciardello said he didn't believe highly trained police would have "taken pot shots at a guy dressed up like Osama bin Laden".

"The footage we've got shows that the police weren't too worried - some of them were laughing.

"We have got more faith in the Police Minister's snipers than he does."

The following is the article in today's Sydney Morning Herald:


http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/chaser-pair-thought-gag-would-fail/2007/09/11/1189276719718.html


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: ponderosa on November 01, 2007, 08:48:54 AM
Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the situation with Iraq?


Oh, I think he's doing a fine job. ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfSwS4OO51w


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on November 09, 2007, 08:51:31 AM



Ayatollahs got no reason
Ayatollahs got no reason
Ayatollahs got no reason
To live

They got little hands
And little eyes
And they walk around
Tellin' great big lies
They got little noses
And tiny little teeth
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet

Well, I don't want no Ayatollahs
Don't want no Ayatollahs
Don't want no Ayatollahs
Round here

Ayatollahs are just the same
As you and I
(A Fool Such As I)
All men are brothers
Until the day they die
(It's A Wonderful World)

Ayatollahs got nobody
Ayatollahs got nobody
Ayatollahs got nobody
To love

They got little baby legs
And they stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello
They got little cars
That go beep, beep, beep
They got little voices
Goin' peep, peep, peep
They got grubby little fingers
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time
Well, I don't want no Ayatollahs
Don't want no Ayatollahs
Don't want no Ayatollahs
'Round here

They come from Qom
tell you they're always right
They have a magic book
so don't bother to fight
They'll chop off your fingers
They'll hang you high
only safety is for them to die
They hate all moderns
They've built a nuke
Its enough to make you want to puke
Well, I don't want no Ayatollahs
Don't want no Ayatollahs
Don't want no Ayatollahs
"Round here.


Title: Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Post by: ponderosa on November 10, 2007, 08:37:31 AM
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/circello

I am writing you today, not asking for forgiveness for what I decided to do, but to give you an idea of what brought me to that decision to leave the Army and speak out against the Occupation. Though some will claim I left for other reasons and will try to force the discussion away from the facts and at the same time attempt to assassinate my character with half truths and out right lies, these are the facts. If later we wish to get into more of my personal life, we can do that: I have no fear of it.

I will first like to say that I am no longer a member of the United States Armed Forces. When I left the military on Easter morning, April 2007, I have officially resigned from service to that military. There are no ties between myself and an oppressive military regime set on occupying groups of impoverished indigenous people...


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on November 13, 2007, 02:53:14 AM
Yes I had similar feelings during the Vietnam era.  But I joined a reserve unit and served my six years without action even though I was totally against that war. But in those ancient times there was no choice or an all volunteer army. The Viet Cong never came to US soil to kill innocent civilians nor did their leaders call for death to America.

Frankly I do not understand how you can modernize and democratize the primitives. Saddam was toppled hang a sharp right and on to Teheran, terror command central. Another two week war, another toppled mangod and no more threats.



 


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Urethra_Franklin on November 15, 2007, 02:25:49 PM
I had a cabbie from Iraq when visiting St. Louis a few weeks ago.  I asked him what he thought of the occupation.

He spoke english very well, and told us that he had lived in Iraq until about 6 years ago.  He supported the war.  He described the Husseinity as the hell I somewhat imagined.

There's also a family of Iraqis who live in my apartment complex and have migrated recently to America.  They too, support the war.


Just thought I'd drop that.


I doubt anyone will ever have a chance to hear about something like that in the media.



Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: weezo on November 15, 2007, 03:14:16 PM
Uri,

If these two people support the war, what are they doing migrating to America? Why don't they stay and help duke it out? And, out of curiousity, what end do they expect from the war in Iraq? How will we know when we have achieved our "goals"?


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Urethra_Franklin on November 15, 2007, 03:19:24 PM
We didn't get into the finer details, cheezo.

Both exchanges lasted less than 5 minutes.


And I would imagine that both gentlemen preferred America's democracy to Hussein's "rape rooms".


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: kidcarter8 on November 15, 2007, 03:25:45 PM
Uri,

If these two people support the war, what are they doing migrating to America? Why don't they stay and help duke it out? And, out of curiousity, what end do they expect from the war in Iraq? How will we know when we have achieved our "goals"?


We'll clue you in, as usual.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: weezo on November 15, 2007, 07:09:38 PM
Kid,

I seriously doubt you could "clue me in". Both you and Uri are clueless. Uri has a five minute conversation and doesn't even find out why the two guys aren't fighting for the freedom of their own country, just sitting back in this country, letting others die for them.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: luee on November 16, 2007, 09:34:27 PM
Wow breathless anticipation, for the next chapter. Was it like the new De Palma movie? Did they make you rape teenage girls and kill their families? Did you brutalize captured Muhjadeen? Did you flush chapters of their magic book down a toilet? Was it the IEDs, your best buddies being blown up? Did you miss mom's apple pie? I got to enjoy soldiering at boot camp, the smell of burning flesh probably would make me queezy though.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: weezo on November 16, 2007, 10:02:05 PM
Luee,

If you think the smell of burning flesh will make you queezy, don't go into firefighting as a career. It's an occupational hazard just as it is with "soldiering". BTW, boot camp is not the real deal. But, in my experience, boot camp was a fine way for a son to learn new respect for his mother.




Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Urethra_Franklin on November 17, 2007, 05:19:32 AM
So, your son had a newfound respect for you after enduring boot camp?



Surely you're not a male.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: weezo on November 17, 2007, 06:25:09 AM
Uri,

You are right. I am not a male. And boot camp had the same effect on both my sons. Both times that my younger son prepared to be shipped to the middle east for a Bush war, there was a noticeable surge in his respect and feeling of support. That son has never married, so them emphasis with his will and insurance was for his mother, and the army also reminds soldiers to write to their mothers, both in boot camp and when on duty overseas.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: Wolverine on December 02, 2007, 05:22:58 AM
Quote
The joint force clashed with militants in the mountainous Shah Wali Kot district in Kandahar province during a three-day operation that ended Saturday and left 35 insurgents dead, said provincial police chief Sayed Agha Saqib.

Ten other insurgents were detained near the militants' hide-outs, which they used to launch attacks against Afghan and foreign troops in the area, Saqib said. Authorities recovered the militants' bodies along with their automatic weapons and ammunition, he said.

In Kandahar's Zhari district, Afghan and foreign troops clashed with another group of militants hiding in a compound Saturday night, killing five militants and detaining four others, Saqib said.

Among those killed was a regional militant commander, Mullah Faizullah, he said.

There were no casualties among Afghan or foreign troops during the operations, Saqib said.

This from 2 Dec NYTimes - over and over - 30-40-50 'insurgents' killed inAfghanistan or Iraq - there were no casualities among what they call 'the good guys' - is this total BS or what? Sounds continuously ludicrous.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: FlyingVProd on October 24, 2017, 02:21:15 AM
COLUMN ONE
 
Iraq horse track defies the odds
 
The Baghdad Equestrian Club saw its glory days in the '40s and survived through extremism and anarchy. Now Iraqis are coming to the races again in large numbers and the club is turning a profit.
 
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/aug/12/world/fg-iraq-horses12 (http://articles.latimes.com/2009/aug/12/world/fg-iraq-horses12)
 
Salute,
 
Tony V.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: FlyingVProd on October 24, 2017, 02:23:29 AM
American-style casino opens in Iraq
Kalashnikovs checked at door
By Burke Hansen

Link...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09/20/casino_iraq/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09/20/casino_iraq/)

Salute,

Tony V.


Title: Re: Iraq in Transition
Post by: FlyingVProd on October 24, 2017, 02:34:27 AM
AID and the Afghan Cotton Saga

Why would USAID not get behind an effort to turn Afghan farmers from poppy to cotton?

By Rajiv Chandrasekaran, August 6, 2012
 
Link...
 
http://www.theglobalist.com/aid-and-the-afghan-cotton-saga/ (http://www.theglobalist.com/aid-and-the-afghan-cotton-saga/)

-------

And the people in Afghanistan can finance their businesses with FINCA Village Banking...

https://www.finca.org/ (https://www.finca.org/)

--------------

The people of Afghanistan can grow cotton, and they can make cotton bed sheets, and clothing, and other things made from cotton. The people of Afghanistan already call cotton "White Gold" and they envy the people in Egypt whom were successful growing cotton and making cotton products. The people of Afghanistan could benefit greatly from cotton.
 
Salute,
 
Tony V.