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Who will win Game 5 of the NBA Finals?

Warriors
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Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: June 13, 2022, 11:38:11 PM


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Author Topic: Knicks  (Read 1019248 times)

luee

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4035 on: February 01, 2019, 04:14:44 PM »

Maybe they saw the medical reports and decided it was a good time to eject. Could be why he was not extended. If so it was a fantastic deal. Antonio McDyess was never the same after knee surgery?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 04:17:03 PM by luee »
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carlos123

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Medical reports
« Reply #4036 on: February 01, 2019, 04:21:13 PM »

Luee, I’m pretty sure Dallas looked them up too. They’re not as dumb as the Knicks.
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kidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4037 on: February 01, 2019, 04:24:31 PM »

https://twitter.com/RyanWardLA/status/1091434072117628928

Conventional wisdom is Hawks made a mistake.  I am not so sure.
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Kam

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4038 on: February 01, 2019, 04:28:24 PM »

I have to believe the Knicks did what was best for the Knicks.

What in the history of Knicks management over the last 20+ years would lead you to "have" to believe that?  Has anything they have done over that period been what is best for the Knicks?

You can choose to believe it.  If you want.  But Howard Beck, for one, says the trade talk wasn't a demand.  That it came up in discussions.  Leads me to believe that Knicks management could have/should have been able to convince Kristaps to give this a shot.  He hasn't played for Fiz, hasn't played with Knox, hasn't played with their upcoming top draft pick...This wasn't a requirement.

I can't think of a team that traded their franchise player in his early twenties and then went on to greatness.  Can you?  And to do that just to clear cap space?

I have to believe the Knicks did a trade that will turn out to be dumb.  Thats the history.  And thats what it looks like now.

Finally the voice of reason.

Not sure what is more maddening, the Knicks trade or Kam and others embracing yet another reboot and change in direction.



Don't put words in my mouth. 
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Kam

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4039 on: February 01, 2019, 04:30:11 PM »

I have to believe the Knicks did what was best for the Knicks.

What in the history of Knicks management over the last 20+ years would lead you to "have" to believe that?  Has anything they have done over that period been what is best for the Knicks?

You can choose to believe it.  If you want.  But Howard Beck, for one, says the trade talk wasn't a demand.  That it came up in discussions.  Leads me to believe that Knicks management could have/should have been able to convince Kristaps to give this a shot.  He hasn't played for Fiz, hasn't played with Knox, hasn't played with their upcoming top draft pick...This wasn't a requirement.

I can't think of a team that traded their franchise player in his early twenties and then went on to greatness.  Can you?  And to do that just to clear cap space?

I have to believe the Knicks did a trade that will turn out to be dumb.  Thats the history.  And thats what it looks like now.

Don't cherry pick what i wrote

Quote
I can be mad at the Knicks but I have no insight into if there were  better deals coming. 

I have to believe the Knicks did what was best for the Knicks.

Nobody knows yet you all act like you know.
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kidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4040 on: February 01, 2019, 04:31:59 PM »

I have to believe the Knicks did what was best for the Knicks.

What in the history of Knicks management over the last 20+ years would lead you to "have" to believe that?  Has anything they have done over that period been what is best for the Knicks?

You can choose to believe it.  If you want.  But Howard Beck, for one, says the trade talk wasn't a demand.  That it came up in discussions.  Leads me to believe that Knicks management could have/should have been able to convince Kristaps to give this a shot.  He hasn't played for Fiz, hasn't played with Knox, hasn't played with their upcoming top draft pick...This wasn't a requirement.

I can't think of a team that traded their franchise player in his early twenties and then went on to greatness.  Can you?  And to do that just to clear cap space?

I have to believe the Knicks did a trade that will turn out to be dumb.  Thats the history.  And thats what it looks like now.

KP and his brother have been dicks from the very beginning

I dont see how this turns out bad.  Are you really going to say, "yeah, we have_________________ but could have been so much better if we kept KP"?

Think about what you are saying.  We didnt even have enough to pay max to a 7 year vet.
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bankshot1

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4041 on: February 01, 2019, 05:01:40 PM »

In the shadow of the hit and run/pick and roll to Dallas trade, and with renewed speculation that KI may not re-sign with the Celts, It should be an interesting event at MSG tonight.

My Knick win guestimate of (IIRC 22-24) assumed KP would be back by late January.

I probably should look at a slighly lower total,
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PrezIke

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4042 on: February 01, 2019, 05:05:25 PM »



I like what the leadership is trying to do. I think our approach has more of a chance to finally lead us to where our less reactive fans have been begging for us to go for ages.


This trade is the logical conclusion to the old  "Nagel Rule" philosophy.  Clear the decks.  We had to dump Lee and Jr. to be players in free agency.  This is the first time we have had enough money to land Two big name free agents.  Rectifying the mistake of 2010 where we pitched LeBron no running mate.

Also i think Brooklyn having more space made the Knicks nervous.

Also sounds like we still could be players for AD, as rumors are we're still a team he'd be down to join. With 7 #1 picks in 5 years we have that plus other young players we could use as part of a package to land him.
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PrezIke

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4043 on: February 01, 2019, 05:08:33 PM »

5 months? So color me confused.

Are we rebuilding or are we back in the FA race? Who in their right mind comes here and plays with our current crop of players? Wasn't KP the real appeal of coming here.

We already know Mills is a no-nothing idiot -- Perry is right on his tail it seems.

Leadership? These cats have changed their course yet again after preaching patience.

This is a new low. They flat-out panicked and were fleeced by the Mavs. Draft picks? Fucking meaningless when they come from a competitive team.

We could actually be trying for a big 3, not just 2 max FA's, somewhat on DL with this trade.

After that you will have loads of vets FA's lining up to join a KD, Kyrie, AD partnership (if it comes to pass)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 06:17:24 PM by PrezIke »
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PrezIke

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4044 on: February 01, 2019, 05:11:59 PM »

Have to wonder - Dallas is 5 games out - do they try to make a run in getting KP back - or do they tank?

I am guessing we hear some glowing stuff out of Dallas tomorrow on THJ.

Kid, I wonder if this is what KP meant when he posted, "The truth will come out."

Maybe he's "fit" to play, or close to it, and Knicks didn't want to risk him, as well as holding him out to get a better asset by increasing chances of getting a higher pick, instead of trying to win a few more games, like we always have tried, annoyed many of us, and has done us absolutely no good in the past.
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PrezIke

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4045 on: February 01, 2019, 05:12:31 PM »

Why is everything i say twisted into being Anti-Kanter.  I haven't said anything bad about the guy whose teams all get better after trading him.


Oops.

You're hysterical, bro.
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PrezIke

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Re: Dallas
« Reply #4046 on: February 01, 2019, 05:19:48 PM »

Did they just mortgage their future?  If KP signs and gets injured again that pick in 2023 could turn to Gold.

Luka and KP could become an Amazing Duo.  But even if they do...  is that enough?  Can they add more?

Or the mofo becomes one of the top talents in the NBA for the next 15 years and its looked back on as one of the worst trades in Knicks history

Or that happens and we still turn what we've done into a 2 or 3 superstar combo team that competes for the titles every year.

Or something in between.

Look at the Melo deal. It was bad for us, but a lot of those players have not had the careers some hoped. Gallo is good, but what some hoped here who were enamored, while Wilson has had a good career and now a solid starter on a top team. Felton barely in the NBA and Moz was valuable at one time, but is badly injured and has a bad contract. The draft picks have not been all that I think. So it wasn't great for anyone really.

It ain't so clear its one or the other, or what just yet, but bottom line is KP wanted to go, so this idea that we "call his bluff" as I read Zach Lowe post, is a huge risk that could have led us to, as Kam wrote, get nothing for him at all.
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PrezIke

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4047 on: February 01, 2019, 05:41:44 PM »

Wows!

Knick return:
- Smith Jr. who the team wanted to ditch, was semi-exiled for 2 weeks.
- DeAndrethe Giant, who the team complained was dogging it early season.  There was even minor talk of a buyout.
- Wes' ending contract.
Dallas with the Sell Low trade win.

Sure Tim is overpaid and so is Courtly, but it took KZ to move them?!? You move KZ and get very little back?!?
There wasn't a better deal out there?

For DAL, right now Burke is better than Smith Jr.
Wes could prove useful if you can re-sign him in the $6M-$8M range.  Need some vets and he can be a solid reasonably 2-way wing.  Otherwise it's just Trier-Datsun-Franco.
No idea on DeAtheG for NYK.

Really this whole fiasco makes me think we should have kept Noah and ditched him in this mess.  He's an extra $6M clogging up next and nextnext year.  I guess we used the roster spot well, but still ...

Those 1st round picks are a ways out.  And unless KZ gets injured, DAL should be a good team and the picks around 20 or wherever. 

Was KZ really going to risk injury and play on a $7.5M one year contract?    Doubt it muchly.  You re-sign him to a big deal with the understanding that you'll try to move him to a good team if he's unhappy with the direction of the team.  I think once he was back and it was His Team again, with the depth we have, and an added FA, and a high pick, things would have gone fine.

KZ was the FA lure.  Now you have to get a FA tandem, because nobody wants to come to play with Knox and Smith Jr.
Maybe Knix were worried KZ would get injured again.  that's all I can see possible.  Otherwise it's a complete muck up.

How did we get little back, bo?

We dumped THJ's awful contract and inefficient shooting, plus unload Lee's making us one of 3 players for 2 max FA's this summer (Clips & Nets), and got 2 #1 picks, plus a youngin some fans wanted badly over Frank and whined all last season about, and does have potential at 21.

You should listen to that Nate Duncan pod I posted. They really favor the Knicks in the trade, even though its a risk for them too, and think the Mavs are taking a huge gamble.

KP made this happen through his poor attitude over the past few seasons about being here, although blame does need to be placed on Phil at a minimum.

We are trying to build a team the right way (FINALLY) and his bloated ego and injury prone self (let's be real here, he's never played a full 82 games and has missed more games each season since he was drafted - 72, 66, 48, 0). With his size there are major?s about that as this could be a problem. His brother, who I think is also part of the problem, hinting KP could do things to become an UFA, possibly leaving the Knicks...for nothing. He's not playing on the court, so of course we're trash, so not sure what he expected, and we clearly wanted to sign at least 1 FA this summer.

Yet, that could be too much of an unknown for KD, Kyrie, etc. even as much of a once in a lifetime talent he is.

We reportedly were looking at other teams interested in him, but none could offer the kind of player you'd get in return for his value, or would take on THJ's and Lee's contracts, plus give us 2 #1's and a young talent. If KP was playing and showing who we know he can be, then I hear you, but his value is lower because of this. That pod I referred to, actually said this deal makes more sense if KP was fit, so they actually have the opposite POV.

It may not all work, but I don't think this is the same as when Donnie did things wrong in 2010. The big ? is if we whiff how will we play it. I don't think we will just sign mediocre FA's, but hold the fort with all of the assets we have and maintain PATIENCE.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 06:19:56 PM by PrezIke »
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PrezIke

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4048 on: February 01, 2019, 05:55:31 PM »

Dallas also has Jalen Brunson and Dwight Powell and Maxi Kleber, all ready to play more minutes. Still, they're not even a lock for the playoffs next year (when they have their pick), but they certainly look better for the year after, when Luka's flirting with averaging a triple double and Porzingis presumably is healthy from his ACL tear.

I think:
- KP was ridiculously myopic about this, blaming this regime for Phil Jackson's insanity

- A bidding war still made sense. But not sure who else but Sacto could have given us all that cap space

- it's impossible to say if this is a good return or not. If you sign Kyrie and Durant it's the greatest Knicks trade ever, if you spend the money on max contracts for Bledsoe and an injured Boogie Cousins and DSJ never reaches so much as Dennis Schroder levels (and if Porzingis ever makes first team all-NBA) then it's one of the worst Knicks trades (there's a lot of competition there, mind). And there's all kinds of permutations in between. So it's tough to call it.

- I mean, what do you do with this: "Pick details via league memo: NYK receives next avail DAL 1st-rounder unprotected. Depending on when that happens, NYK then receives either DAL 2023, 2024, or 2025 1st-round pick-- top-10 protected in all three years. If they haven't received 1st by 2025, they get Mavs 2025 2nd."

- Ntilikina as a 2-guard next to DSJ makes more sense than him as a PG. I still like Ntilikina as a keeper. Mudiay, however, should be moved. Or DSJ should be moved. But with free agency coming, don't keep both.

- Vonleh now is a keeper! No matter who we sign, he makes sense. Kanter still has to go.

- We have more cap space than just for two max contracts - there will still be money left over for an MLE type contract to throw at Delon Wright

- There's a real chance next year's team has a host of depressing players, like Isaiah Thomas and DeAndre Jordan and Jabari Parker surrounding max contract Eric Bledsoe. But even then, we'd have our picks and a lot of youth. It's something. The catch: Fizdale gets a pass from me on this year...he hasn't exactly been Lloyd Pierce, but maybe he's still evolving as a coach. But there has to be actual cohesion next year.

Interestingly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that if we end up with the #1 pick we won't actually have enough for 2 max contracts due to the cap hold for that slot.

https://twitter.com/KnickFilmSchool/status/1091433134405705728

We'd have to renounce IsoZo, sadly.

Noah's contract is so infuriating, and many of us were against it from the moment we heard about it. Phil set us back so far it's nuts. Mills THJ signing was also insane, but whatever, at least that's finally gone.

No fool would trade for a 2 year dead cap contract of that amount, even with what they got although I'd bet we tried to put it into the deal. If KP was not so injury prone then we might have been able to include it.

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PrezIke

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #4049 on: February 01, 2019, 06:13:11 PM »

Can't see how it's anything but a home run for DAL.\
Of course KZ can get re-injured.  But any player can gte hurt.
Otherwise they added a 2nd star to go with their prized rook.  Their skills blend, they know and like ach other already.  KZ is 23 and Luka 19 or whatever.  And they only traded 3 guys not in their plans (they might have re-signed Wes at a mid-level rate), and some future #1's when they expect to be competitive.  And they guys they added form NYC can play and fill in even if overpaid.  Burke a Barea replacement for this year. 

DAL: A+

NYK?
Mills said, "you don't want to commit a max [contract] to a player who clearly says to you he doesn't want to be here."
Uh, why not?  Then he's an asset and a trade chip.
And a rehab year isn't easy.
KZ gets on the court and could easily change his mind, enjoy playing with Trier and Knox and Mitch -- guys he's never played with before.
And the Knix new 1st round pick would make a difference as well.
We should have built around KZ, and made him happy.

I don't see KZ coming off a severe injury doing a 1 year $7.5M high risk deal.  Lock in a max deal and you have $150M or whatever guaranteed.  You take the payday and decide where you want to be later.  And Mills' statement seems to confirm what I'm saying.

Why Sell Low on KZ (unsigned, hasn't returned to the court yet), when getting not much at all back?  Just cap space.  And erratic Smith Jr.


Worth noting that Durant couldn't win with Westbrook and Kyrie having trouble with an absolutely loaded Celt team.  Knix are going to be so far below the min salary next year that if we don't add 2 max players, we'll need to give out some inflated 1 year deals just to reach the mandatory floor.

NYK: D -

Any player? Umm, don't you mean a 7' 3" player with a track record for injuries already and the last one that is arguably one of the THE WORST for taking athleticism from people?

He has to agree to sign the contract. He's clearly threatening to possibly bounce as a UFA. You're making a big assumption that he wouldn't do a 1 year deal. This is not a normal situation. Do you recall, or have you read what his brother and agent said last year:

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/11/kristaps-porzingis-knicks-contract-brother-warning

Quote
The most important question here is this: What do you really want to achieve in your career? Because money – if Kristaps performs at least on his normal level, is gonna come. We are more focused on some other values and not just to quickly sign a new contract so we can collect the money. That’s definitely not our goal, so we won’t be feverishly counting minutes or counting points.”

“You can’t escape the reality and the Knicks must also see that. From their point of view, Kristaps is the focal point at the moment so you cannot upset him much or otherwise, at the end of the season, he will say “it’s not so cool here.” The second question is: Who is the New York audience coming to watch now? To a large extent, it’s Kristaps. So the organization has to take that into account.”

Is this common at all? No. He's worshiped by fans more than any player in ages, the team is trying to get past the bad history with better FO management and a more in touch coaching staff, but the message from him has not really changed, trying to strong arm us, as he came into this meeting expressing his problems, again, not sounding like a committed player willing to work with the organization. TBF he did go through crap with Jax and Horny, but that's not here now - so they're supposed to call his bluff, another huge risk based on the message that did not change from KP - that the Knicks clearly decided was the last straw after the meeting - as they were already concerned about this, put out feelers in case the concern didn't dissipate, being smart, and as an alternative know they could change rapidly with 2019 FA's and the 7 #1 draft picks in 5 years to try and add talent and become a top team?

Why is that automatically a bad move? I think it makes sense, even if it may not work.

Also, again, suggest to listen to this and see what you think:

https://twitter.com/NateDuncanNBA/status/1091134139808460800

or here:

https://www.spreaker.com/user/10451190/duncd-on-190201-mixed-final?utm_medium=widget&utm_source=user%3A10451190&utm_term=episode_title

« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 06:27:40 PM by PrezIke »
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