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How Should the Basketball "Topics" Be Arranged?

Knicks, NBA, College
- 3 (50%)
Knicks, Other Basketball
- 0 (0%)
NBA, College
- 1 (16.7%)
Basketball
- 0 (0%)
Leave it as it is
- 2 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Voting closed: August 30, 2020, 02:57:14 PM


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Author Topic: Knicks  (Read 342193 times)

chipstern

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Re: RJ Barrett and RJ Hampton?
« Reply #13395 on: September 16, 2020, 05:11:13 PM »

https://sports.yahoo.com/insight-rj-hamptons-interview-knicks-201500540.html

Insight into RJ Hampton's interview with the Knicks and what he's done with Mike Miller to improve his shot

#notthatmikemillertheothermikemiller

Interesting. 
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chipstern

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13396 on: September 16, 2020, 05:17:21 PM »

Quote
BoD frequently likes to reference his Carmelo Anthony Knicks-Boston Trade Proposal, in which he had the prescience to fantasize about the Knicks copping Jaylen Brown & Terry Rozier.

As the sole Celt's fan on this board, Bo's frequent mention of this proposal always makes me laugh. When he was proposing this trade I posted that there was NO WAY, NONE, NADA, NO FUCKING CHANCE, the Celts would make the trade. It was mentioned to Bo that Melo was an overpaid ballhog who wouldn't pass or wouldn't play D, that would tie up the Celts cap space as they rebuilt, And in return for escaping Melo Bo wanted 2 high potential young'uns who were on rookie contracts. It was just fanciful play-acting GMing by Bo, which is fine, its what fans do, and I understood why Bo wanted to make the trade, but i also understood why Ainge would not. To pretend that it was based in reality was kind of silly.

Love me some BoD, but his pride of authorship in a "trade" that was never even vaguely on the event horizon, and his rainy day dream away slight return to it over and over, seems, well, kind of....ODD.

Chip-did i ever tell you about my Rick Robey For Michael Cooper and the Laker's #1 pick trade propsal in '79? Trade machine loved it. Red loved it, But ex-Celt and Laker GM, Bill Sharnan was a little lukewarm.  Damn that was a nice swap.

Red finally came up with a decent Robey trade that sent him west for a decent guard in '83.

sometimes these things take time!

 :)

I remember back in 1989-90. 

I was driving around and I heard on one of the sports radio outlets that the Knicks had traded Rod Strickland to the San Antonio Spurs.

I almost drove off the road. 

WE GOT SEAN ELLIOT.  WE GOT SEAN ELLIOT. 

We got the earthly remains of Maurice Cheeks. 
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kiidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13397 on: September 16, 2020, 05:44:24 PM »

However, given our long dishonored tradition of giving up and young players WAY TOO FUCKING SOON, worrying about re-upping or picking up the RFA Option on any of our kids, when we are paying 9.5 million for Taj and 8 million for Payton and Ellington and 19.5 million for Randle?



The last three are far better players
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Kam

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13398 on: September 16, 2020, 05:44:49 PM »

Quote
BoD frequently likes to reference his Carmelo Anthony Knicks-Boston Trade Proposal, in which he had the prescience to fantasize about the Knicks copping Jaylen Brown & Terry Rozier.

As the sole Celt's fan on this board, Bo's frequent mention of this proposal always makes me laugh. When he was proposing this trade I posted that there was NO WAY, NONE, NADA, NO FUCKING CHANCE, the Celts would make the trade. It was mentioned to Bo that Melo was an overpaid ballhog who wouldn't pass or wouldn't play D, that would tie up the Celts cap space as they rebuilt, And in return for escaping Melo Bo wanted 2 high potential young'uns who were on rookie contracts. It was just fanciful play-acting GMing by Bo, which is fine, its what fans do, and I understood why Bo wanted to make the trade, but i also understood why Ainge would not. To pretend that it was based in reality was kind of silly.

Love me some BoD, but his pride of authorship in a "trade" that was never even vaguely on the event horizon, and his rainy day dream away slight return to it over and over, seems, well, kind of....ODD.

Chip-did i ever tell you about my Rick Robey For Michael Cooper and the Laker's #1 pick trade propsal in '79? Trade machine loved it. Red loved it, But ex-Celt and Laker GM, Bill Sharnan was a little lukewarm.  Damn that was a nice swap.

Red finally came up with a decent Robey trade that sent him west for a decent guard in '83.

sometimes these things take time!

 :)

I remember back in 1989-90. 

I was driving around and I heard on one of the sports radio outlets that the Knicks had traded Rod Strickland to the San Antonio Spurs.

I almost drove off the road. 

WE GOT SEAN ELLIOT.  WE GOT SEAN ELLIOT. 

We got the earthly remains of Maurice Cheeks.

Yeah.  It was a head scratcher for me even drafting Strickland a year after drafting MJAX at the same position in the same draft slot.
But looking back it was the right pick in a shit draft.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_1988.html
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kiidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13399 on: September 16, 2020, 05:49:21 PM »

Should have taken the white shooter.
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bodiddley

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13400 on: September 17, 2020, 12:22:28 AM »

Back then the Knix seemed to draft a new PG every year or two.  It was kind of odd. Darrell Walker, Gerald Wilkins, Marc Jax, Strickland, Greg Anthony, Chollie Ward. That's 6 PG's in a 10 year period, while two of those years Knix had given away their 1st round pick.

Or if you want to start with Jax, a legit starting PG, then it's 4 PG's picked in a 7 year period, with one year no 1st rounder.  I guess that extra shuffling is what made it seem really odd when the Knix finally went long-term with Charlie "Fairly Good" Ward.


As for my Melo trade, Ainge was itching to make a splash, and there was some talk he was considering Melo.  Melo was still late prime (32, I think).  Ainge wisely decided Melo wasn't his kind of guy and moved on.  But Jaylen wasn't playing then and Rozier was wild and inefficient.  Young untapped talent.  I forget the trade ballast.  It was a good trade if BOS had a less discerning GM, but reports were Ainge considered Melo (as any GM should consider any trade).   I had a few other good Melo trades but don't recall them.  Should look them up. 


Last year, I was reminded that I once offered JEarl Smith for Draymond Green, when he was an unhappy bench fixture stuck behind David Lee, and no one here was interested at all ...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 01:02:36 AM by bodiddley »
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bodiddley

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13401 on: September 17, 2020, 12:33:43 AM »

What I don't care much for is when folks only want to cop a player AFTER he has nova-ed and become expensive.  The time to get Bertans was when he was a sharpshooter not playing enough for SAS.  Same with Joe Harris back on CLE.  Both nice useful players, but to get them in FA you're going to overpay -- the market rate + a FA premium. 

For example, in my 3&D wing fixation days, I wanted to get Crowder from DAL when he had minimal to no offense.  Middleton from MIL when he just had 2-way potential.  DeMarre Carroll when he was a Utah backup with energy and just starting to add 3 to his D.  [Note: 2 of the 3 were indeed traded]. 

To me, that's what the Knix need to identify and target.  Young guys who can take it to another level or two.  I'll toss out some candidates when I can, but haven't seen a enough games the past two seasons to scout as much as I'd like.  And there are a lot of new young faces in the league to sort through.  In the bubble ATL started one game with 4 guys I had never heard of. 
I've had a few guys on watch such as Harry Giles Goatboy.

We tried a scrappier lower level of this, when we brought in a lot of high draft washouts under Fizz -- Vonleh, Muddy, TreyBurke.  I thought those were all worthwhile reclamations as you never know who might get it late.  Similarly, I'm still interested in a very cheap Stan Johnson, Myers Leonard, Alex Len, MKG.  But that's more likely to get you a solid bench player if things pan out.

The hit rate is better when trading for guys with potential rather than reclaiming washouts.  Sure can do both, but I'd be looking to cop a young potential talent in a Randle deal.  And willing to use Jr. Smith or Knox as a sweetener.

Given our horrible shooting, Bertans is intriguing, but he's another weak defender, will be expensive and won't move the needle until we figure out a lot more.  Just seems like a too-late, yesterday move, while the Knix need to look forward and find the next underutilized player.  There are always guys who get squeezed out of a rotation, or are late bloomers or need a better team fit/role.  Gotta look for a Thomas Bryant or Crowder or going back a Ben Wallace languishing somewhere who can play given the chance.

One thing bad is the Knix lack of continuity, management dysfunction, revolving door for players and coaches, lack of chemistry means that we are not an ideal place for guys to find their way.  I didn't like much about Fizz, but he did get scrubs to improve their game.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 12:37:56 AM by bodiddley »
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bankshot1

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13402 on: September 17, 2020, 01:06:19 AM »

Quote
As for my Melo trade, Ainge was itching to make a splash,

Ainge's big splash was a strong play for a FA Durant in '16 and then the Kyrie trade in '17.

It was never Melo, an aging past his prime vet, who was an offense clogging shot machine who didn't play D.

Who was on the books for about $25 million a year.

And not for 2 high upside 1st round picks who were under rookie contracts.

Quote
It was a good trade if BOS had a less discerning GM, but reports were Ainge considered Melo (as any GM should consider any trade).

Ainge would have taken the call, listened and laughed at the proposal.

Ainge wasn't blowing up the team for Melo.

It was so one-sided and nonsensical on its face, that like Melo by that point in his career, was a non-starter.


 

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bodiddley

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13403 on: September 17, 2020, 02:12:02 AM »

Carmelo Anthony-to-Celtics scenario picking up steam
By Marc BermanApril 20, 2017


Quote
According to an NBA source, the Celtics coaching staff was in favor of trading for Anthony at the trade deadline, but general manager Danny Ainge had too many reservations. One of Aingeís concerns, according to a source, was an Anthony trade would have given Boston no real cap space to work with for the 2017 free-agent class.

With the top-seeded Celtics possibly on their way to getting swept by the eighth-seeded Bulls, Aingeís thoughts on adding Anthony could change this July. ... As feared, the Celtics havenít had enough firepower in the fourth quarter, relying solely on 5-foot-10 point guard Isaiah Thomas.

The Post has learned that in talks with the Celtics, their defensive small forward Jae Crowder would be a major player of interest for Knicks president Phil Jackson.


That reporting had BOS interested and Ainge backing off because he wouldn't be able to be a FA player.

It was never Melo, an aging past his prime vet, who was an offense clogging shot machine who didn't play D.
Who was on the books for about $25 million a year.
And not for 2 high upside 1st round picks who were under rookie contracts.

Anthony was named to the All-Star Game and averaged 22.4 points, 5.9 rebounds and 2.9 assists per contest in 2016-17.  BOS was looking for more offense to help IT.

Quote
Ainge would have taken the call, listened and laughed at the proposal.
Ainge wasn't blowing up the team for Melo.
It was so one-sided and nonsensical on its face, that like Melo by that point in his career, was a non-starter.

Wrong.  Anthony was named to the All-Star Game and averaged 22.4 points, 5.9 rebounds and 2.9 assists per contest in 2016-17.

Now how much the Celts would have given is unknown.  But Rozier and Jaylen were not remotely "blowing up the team."  At the time, they were both underperforming bench players.   Melo was coming off an all-star year.  And BOS would have been able to dump Amir and Jerebko's contracts on NYK to lessen the burden of Melo's.
Apparently the main issue for Ainge was he would be cut out of the main FA market, where he was targeting Jimmy Butler and Paul George.

Phil was interested in Crowder, but he was BOS best defender at the time (before Smart fully emerged later) which would be important if you're going to court both Isaiah Thomas and Melo.  If BOS was committed to breakout year Crowder long term, Jaylen was expendable, especially with Tatum ahead of him (and it wasn't clear Jaylen could play SG).  Sure, Ainge would probably prefer to give NYK one of their many 1sts and hold on to Brown.  But even a Rozier, Amir + BOS 1st rounder would have been a decent trade for NYK.

Anyway, there was Melo to BOS talk.  Phil was definitely interested.  BOS thought about it at the deadline, but declined.  But after getting smoked in the playoffs, BOS indeed decided to blow it up, by moving IT.

3 terrific Ainge moves:
trading KG and Pierce for Nets 1st rounders forever.
trading damaged IT for Kyrie
trading Fultz for Tatum and a 1st rounder

The one big move which hasn't panned out is FA Hayward, but mainly due to injuries, which usually can't be foreseen.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 02:41:15 AM by bodiddley »
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bodiddley

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13404 on: September 17, 2020, 03:00:52 AM »

From a BOS source at the time:

Quote
the Cís do have interest in Anthony for themselves. They have for a long time. And itís no doubt their attention gained an even greater degree when word filtered out that the Celts are one of the clubs for whom Carmelo would consider waiving his no-trade clause.

The question in this case, and, really, in every case, is price. According to multiple sources, there have been, as of the weekend, no formal trade talks between the Celts and New York, but that was largely because the Knicks are believed to be asking a Meloís ransom for the star.

Anthony could be the additional major scoring source the Celts need, and there is every reason to believe he would fit here from the technical hoop standpoint and as a teammate. But unless Ainge can get more than the 32-year-old Melo, it is hard to picture a scenario in which he surrenders one of the first-rounders he has coming from Brooklyn.

With IT, Smart and Rozier, Terry was likely available (and later moved).
With Tatum in place and Jaylen barely playing, Knix should have made a play to pry Brown loose.  It's the kind of smart forward-looking trade you try to make.  Maybe BOS would never have let go.  Depends how they projected Jaylen, but those young for old trades are rarely wise.

If Knix got Rozier + Jaylen + ballast (Amir & Jerebko) that would have been great.
Rozier + a BOS mid-round 1st + ballast = solid trade
Jaylen + BOS 1st + ballast = solid trade
(BOS was larded with picks)

Even without the mid-1st, NYK would have had to consider the deal.
Knix could have sweetened the deal by adding someone.

No one knew if Rozier was a starting-level PG or how good Jaylen could be.
Knix really needed a PG and Jaylen was underwhelming as a rook.
So at the time I wasn't sure which NYK should target more.
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bodiddley

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13405 on: September 17, 2020, 05:15:21 AM »

I never understood why the Knix couldn't pick up a Dragic or Rubio, a solid steady starting PG.  Reportedly we had a Rose-Rubio swap in hand and Phil funked it up.
Maybe then we wouldn't have drafted Franc and could have tabbed a Big such as Zach Collins, BAM!, John Collins, with Donovan on the board as well.

And Phil's mistreatment of Melo, Noah, KZ no doubt went noticed throughout the Association.  Noah a former all-star, Melo a well-liked future HoFer, KZ a rising young star.  Knix treated like crap.  Then wonder why top FA's such as a Durant or LeBJ, or Butler don't come NY way, and all we can rustle up in Julius "Throwback" Randle.  The losing an dysfunction don't help, but all it's all part of the same comprehensive package.

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bodiddley

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13406 on: September 17, 2020, 05:59:02 AM »

Stanley Crouch, 74

Hey Chip, you must have run across Crouch, a fellow drummer at one time, in your NYC jazz life.  That NPR obit is quite good, with a fine/funny Roy Haynes anecdote mid-way through.
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kiidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13407 on: September 17, 2020, 09:35:51 AM »

I never understood why the Knix couldn't pick up a Dragic or Rubio, a solid steady starting PG.  Reportedly we had a Rose-Rubio swap in hand and Phil funked it up.


a)  You never wanted Dragic
b)  Research what happened with Rubio.  Minnesota didnt see Rose staying.
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kiidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13408 on: September 17, 2020, 09:40:07 AM »

From a BOS source at the time:

Quote
the Cís do have interest in Anthony for themselves. They have for a long time. And itís no doubt their attention gained an even greater degree when word filtered out that the Celts are one of the clubs for whom Carmelo would consider waiving his no-trade clause.

The question in this case, and, really, in every case, is price. According to multiple sources, there have been, as of the weekend, no formal trade talks between the Celts and New York, but that was largely because the Knicks are believed to be asking a Meloís ransom for the star.

Anthony could be the additional major scoring source the Celts need, and there is every reason to believe he would fit here from the technical hoop standpoint and as a teammate. But unless Ainge can get more than the 32-year-old Melo, it is hard to picture a scenario in which he surrenders one of the first-rounders he has coming from Brooklyn.

With IT, Smart and Rozier, Terry was likely available (and later moved).
With Tatum in place and Jaylen barely playing, Knix should have made a play to pry Brown loose.  It's the kind of smart forward-looking trade you try to make.  Maybe BOS would never have let go.  Depends how they projected Jaylen, but those young for old trades are rarely wise.

If Knix got Rozier + Jaylen + ballast (Amir & Jerebko) that would have been great.
Rozier + a BOS mid-round 1st + ballast = solid trade
Jaylen + BOS 1st + ballast = solid trade
(BOS was larded with picks)

Even without the mid-1st, NYK would have had to consider the deal.
Knix could have sweetened the deal by adding someone.

No one knew if Rozier was a starting-level PG or how good Jaylen could be.
Knix really needed a PG and Jaylen was underwhelming as a rook.
So at the time I wasn't sure which NYK should target more.

Do you think the Knicks made the Melo deal without going to Boston and LAC first?
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kiidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #13409 on: September 17, 2020, 09:44:30 AM »

I've had a few guys on watch such as Harry Giles Goatboy.



That's it, I'm done


(and by the way, Gerald wasnt a PG)
- nor was Walker - mostly
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 10:05:10 AM by kiidcarter8 »
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