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Warriors

1 (33.3%)

Celtics

2 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: June 13, 2022, 11:38:11 PM

[facilitatorn]

If you want a team that caps out with wins in the 40s if everything breaks right struggles in the play in to get knocked out in the first round, start Mitchell and Brunson together in the backcourt.

In any iteration of the trade that I have seen, we would be a weaker team than we would be turning it down.

I am happy to see Mitchell on any of our rivals provided they have to make a deal Ainge likes to get him.

[chipstern]

If you want a team that caps out with wins in the 40s if everything breaks right struggles in the play in to get knocked out in the first round, start Mitchell and Brunson together in the backcourt.

In any iteration of the trade that I have seen, we would be a weaker team than we would be turning it down.

I am happy to see Mitchell on any of our rivals provided they have to make a deal Ainge likes to get him.

What's that expression, too many cooks spoils the broth? 

I have nothing but respect for Mitchell. 

But Brunson DESERVES to be our unchallenged bell cow.  The LEADER. 

To me, duplicating skills in a pair of matched 6'1" combo guards muddies the water. 

Mitchell is a ball dominant stylist, and to me, that takes away from Jalen's skillset. 

Not saying Donovan is selfish. 

But for his career he AVERAGES just under 20 shots a game [.448%] and 5 FTAs [.833%]

Hello. 

Jalen's stats aren't nearly as gaudy.  Last year he was basically 16-4-5 on a little under 13 shots a game, shooting FTs at a .840%

If we hadn't signed Brunson, I would be all in to try and land DM and make him our lead guard. 

But we signed Jalen to be our lead guard. 

Jalen + Grimes
Jalen + IQ
Jalen + Fournier [12 shots a game]
Jalen + RJ [17 shots a game]
Jalen + Julius [17 shots a game]

Just makes more sense, seems more coherent to me than Brunson + Mitchell. 

I mean, Julius [.411%]-RJ [.408%]-Evan [.417%], in that order, were our three leading scorers.  I should like to see how much more efficient they could be getting the ball in better rhythm to make shots with someone like Brunson ruddering the ship.  I mean, you wanna look at fourth quarter meltdowns?  Look at those FG% of our three top scorers.  Hell IQ is the fourth leading scorer of our returning players [not counting Rose], and his FG% was even more dismal, at .392%

All of which suggests to me, too many damn possessions in the fourth quarter where Julius, RJ, Evan or IQ is pounding the fucking rock, looking to make a something out of nothing, with NO ONE TO CREATE EASY LOOKS FOR THEM. 

Again, this was THE ENTIRE IDEA IN PURSUING JALEN.  Does this suggest that we'd be better with two facilitators in the backcourt than one? 

Is this the repeat of the "only one basketball, how are Clyde AND the Pearl going to co-exist?"   

Of course, Clyde was 6'4" and Pearl was 6'3" 

So maybe Jalen AND Donovan could work.  Talent will out.

I'm just not feeling it at the price of gutting our puppies and draft capital. I'd rather suckle Grimes and have him compete with Fournier. 

But hey, what do I know? 

[Kam]

I don't want this trade.

I think hope when - not if -  the trade happens, there will be a reasonable amount of Knick assets left over to make the NEXT trade possible.

So at the end of the day, I think the trade happens, and as a fan, i'll fall in line.

But even if this trade is ultimately not judged as an OVERPAY.... it's still investing a shit-ton of capital in one guy.   

And that guy, who may be a Top 10 Knick of all time the moment he puts on the jersey, might still not be good enough to get it done without a lot of help. 

What are we buying?  10 more wins in the regular season and one round of playoffs?   

Leon has to keep assets for the next deal, and RJ needs to take another two steps forward.   

Mitchell
Best Case RJ
Mystery PlayerX

Are a potentially young fun big 3.

Who is that other guy... Brandon Ingram?   Karl-Anthony?   Jaylen Brown?    ..... Who is the next All-Star to want out?

That is the path that Leon embarks on if he makes this trade.   That is the logical conclusion to hanging onto assets so you can have enough ammo left over to get that final piece.


IF we don't make this trade, a lot more scenarios open up.   But we have to use our rose-colored glasses even more as not only RJ must evolve to his best self, but we would need OBI to make a jump as well.   

That's a lot of IFs, but watching those two boys develop will be quite enjoyable for a large section of the fan base who want to watch us build a team through the draft.   

We would almost certainly look to trade Julius and Evan to make room for Cam and OBI, who would probably both be gone in any Mitchell trade.

Youth would be truly served.

What are we buying?  Maybe the same amount of wins as losses, and a playoff bid.   

But we would feel good about the team's direction.

It's a very tempting path not in small part due to the fact that the bar for what would be considered a success (a first round playoff appearance) would be cause for disappointment if that is as far as we got after moving all those assets in the first scenario.

I don't envy Leon here.

But he can certainly play hardball and I encourage him to do so.

I like our team.  I don't need Leon to make this trade for me to consider this offseason a good one.

[chipstern]

I don't want this trade.

I think hope when - not if -  the trade happens, there will be a reasonable amount of Knick assets left over to make the NEXT trade possible.

So at the end of the day, I think the trade happens, and as a fan, i'll fall in line.

But even if this trade is ultimately not judged as an OVERPAY.... it's still investing a shit-ton of capital in one guy.   

And that guy, who may be a Top 10 Knick of all time the moment he puts on the jersey, might still not be good enough to get it done without a lot of help. 

What are we buying?  10 more wins in the regular season and one round of playoffs?   

Leon has to keep assets for the next deal, and RJ needs to take another two steps forward.   

Mitchell
Best Case RJ
Mystery PlayerX

Are a potentially young fun big 3.

Who is that other guy... Brandon Ingram?   Karl-Anthony?   Jaylen Brown?    ..... Who is the next All-Star to want out?

That is the path that Leon embarks on if he makes this trade.   That is the logical conclusion to hanging onto assets so you can have enough ammo left over to get that final piece.


IF we don't make this trade, a lot more scenarios open up.   But we have to use our rose-colored glasses even more as not only RJ must evolve to his best self, but we would need OBI to make a jump as well.   

That's a lot of IFs, but watching those two boys develop will be quite enjoyable for a large section of the fan base who want to watch us build a team through the draft.   

We would almost certainly look to trade Julius and Evan to make room for Cam and OBI, who would probably both be gone in any Mitchell trade.

Youth would be truly served.

What are we buying?  Maybe the same amount of wins as losses, and a playoff bid.   

But we would feel good about the team's direction.

It's a very tempting path not in small part due to the fact that the bar for what would be considered a success (a first round playoff appearance) would be cause for disappointment if that is as far as we got after moving all those assets in the first scenario.

I don't envy Leon here.

But he can certainly play hardball and I encourage him to do so.

I like our team.  I don't need Leon to make this trade for me to consider this offseason a good one.

Making sense, Kam. 

I've girded myself for a trade, though my posture is to stand pat, and agree with you that this has been a good offseason. 

[chipstern]

According to the NY DAILY NEWS and ESPN scribe Adrian Wojnaworski, the Knicks Leon Rose gave Ainge a deadline of Monday night to strike a deal and if none were concluded the Knicks would be moving on. 

And...AND

Are finalizing a rookie deal extension for R.J. Barrett. 

A lot of Knicks fans are going to shudder at the numbers, and any future talks on a DM deal would involve a poison pill provision. 

So...unlikely.   

Up yours, Danny 

[facilitatorn]

4 years 120 some of that as allstar and allNBA bonuses, so say 28-29 a year.

On both counts a really good day for our franchise.

[chipstern]

4 years 120 some of that as allstar and allNBA bonuses, so say 28-29 a year.

On both counts a really good day for our franchise.

Apparently R.J, qualified for a 5-year rookie max extension, which would have given him an extra year, and come out like $190 million instead of $120. 

Or as Berman so elegantly parsed it, considering the money left on the table, THIS IS HOW MUCH R.J. did not want TO GO TO UTAH.   

Considering what top tier players are getting paid, the Knicks took care of their first stringers, but got them to accept money just south of over the top...a hometown price, indicative of their desire to BE KNICKS. 

Julius: 23-25-27-29
Jalen: 27-26-24-24
Mitchell: 17-15-14-13 
Evan: 18-18-19
Rose: 14-15

Blue=Player Option
Shadow=Team Option

Darius Garland is a more esteemed talent than Brunson. 

33-35-38-41

Likewise Ja Morant

33-35-38-41

Trae Young

37-40-43-45-48

Zion

33-35-38-41

Obviously Jalen and R.J. are a tier below these cats.

Still, it is interesting, don't you think, that despite what some douche nozzle fans have blurted about the Knicks overpaying, they have tied up their top players at prices amenable to the talent, and leaving the team some future flex. 

Jericho got what amounted to Mitchell's initial make good deal. 

We have Isaiah, Obi, IQ, Cam and Quentin on rookie scale deals under 10 million motivated to make the case for their ascension. 

Miles, Trevor and Felton on second round scaled deals. 

We have Rokas Jokubaitis getting another year of experience as a PG for Barcelona. 

We have all of those draft picks we didn't give to Danny Ainge. 

And we have R.J., Jalen, Julius, Mitchell, Evan and Derrick motivated to Earn Their Ale moving forward and represent NYC as KNICKS.   

Giant steps?

No.

A top tier playoff team?

No. 

But no desperate missteps.  No overpaying for shiny objects. 

A Mitchell Transaction ain't dead.  But it is mos def on ice...

Leon has drawn a line in the sand, and has SEEMINGLY learned from the faux pas and desperation of predecesors who pursued shiny objects at any cost. 

BABY STEPS in lieu of Missteps. 

We cashiered the elderly, have committed to our youth, in word and deed, got Thibs his Point Guard, a Center with an offensive game, and kept our draft assets and salary flex, for pursuit of those elusive and seemingly rarer and rarer prize free agents, or more likely, to package picks in such a way that in upcoming drafts instead of moving out, we could be moving UP. 

Leon Rose Lives By The Hippocratic Oath [Kemba Walker Nothwithstanding]

Do No HARM

[carlos123]

Up yours, Danny

F*CK EVIL DANNY AINGE

[kidcarter8]

What are we buying?  10 more wins in the regular season and one round of playoffs?   


Well////

yes

but anything could happen after that.

[lesterluv]

Indeed.

The idea that DM is somehow a first round-and-out player is just silly.

Those Jazz teams didn't exactly surround him with championship talent.
A largely one-way companion star.
A very late period Mike Conley.
Some pretty decent role players, Ingles, Royce, et al.
Why would that be a championship squad?

Donovan is a magical offensive player. The other end will have to improve.
Let's do this thing, yes, the price has to be right, and I think it will be.

*** personally, I don't want Obi in the deal, god-given touch around the rim that kid, want to see where it goes and won't enjoy the implied commitment to Julius, but that's me.

**** RJ better earn that contract, it is not extreme, but he is barely a net-winning player so far and he has had unlimited rope, go do it RJ

***** If we don't do it, I'm OK too, but I don't think there's any way we don't do it

[kidcarter8]

Posted elsewhere:


The hope   With a new deal and able to relax, Barrett has his best statistical season.  If we can couple this with a season from Randle in between his last two and adding the steady rudder of Brunson, even without other additions this could be a 50 win second round playoff squad ready to surge the following year.

[kidcarter8]

Love this:

Yet I am also hearing that, if no trade involving Westbrook materializes and if he is on the roster when the Lakers start practicing on Sept. 27, new Lakers coach Darvin Ham remains determined to carve out a real role for Westbrook. Sources say that the Lakers, to date, have strongly resisted the idea of shelving Westbrook completely until they can find a trade for him like the Rockets tried last season with John Wall   even after trading for longtime Westbrook adversary Patrick Beverley. Westbrook, who turns 34 in November, appeared in 78 of the Lakers 82 games last season

[facilitatorn]

Posted elsewhere:


The hope   With a new deal and able to relax, Barrett has his best statistical season.  If we can couple this with a season from Randle in between his last two and adding the steady rudder of Brunson, even without other additions this could be a 50 win second round playoff squad ready to surge the following year.

Yup.

[elephant]

Posted elsewhere:


The hope   With a new deal and able to relax, Barrett has his best statistical season.  If we can couple this with a season from Randle in between his last two and adding the steady rudder of Brunson, even without other additions this could be a 50 win second round playoff squad ready to surge the following year.

Yup.

Can you just fix this with putting the word

HOPE

like so?

And maybe add some big prayerful Jesus hands for good measure?

[elephant]

Because I genuinely hope they'll win 50, 60 games. Name a higher number, I'll take it. I want it.

But a (cough) pessimist might point out that the same guys that led you to a sub-playoff season, Randle+Barrett+Thibs remain the core of the Knicks.

So we're hoping these three will prove their worth, prove they're contenders. We're hoping Barrett is young enough to make a real jump. We're hoping that Julius will have a season like he had a couple of years ago. We're hoping that Mr. Brunson will make everyone a whole lot better.

Oh, and there's hoping that Grimes will become an all star.

Lot of hoping going on.

But as of today....we're still a team without a single star.