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Warriors in 4

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Warriors in 6

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Celtics in 7

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Total Members Voted: 2

Voting closed: June 01, 2022, 11:20:06 PM

[bodiddley]

There you go.
I thought it was a tough question, with an interesting Top 8/9.
Kerr & Jax ... and then a headscratcher.

1. Nick Nurse    71.2%
2. Steve Kerr    70.9%
3. Phil Jackson  70.4%
4. Cunningham  69.8%
5. Larry Bird     68.7%

6. Popovich      67.6%
7. David Blatt    67.5%
8. KC Jones       67.4%
9. Auerbach      66.2%

I also didn't realize Cunningham averaged a 20 & 10.  Guy was 6'6".
Kangaroo Kid indeed.  He was just a bit before my time.
Like most on this list, he had a transcendent star (Dr. J, and it didn't hurt adding Moses Malone after a finals loss).

Bird's Pacers somewhat the exception, a vet team led by HoFer Reg Miller

[Kam]

Who is the best player to never be the best player on their own team?

-Tempted to say Scottie but Pippen had those years without MJ so he doesn't count.

[bodiddley]

Stockton?

[facilitatorn]

I’d have said Malone.

[bodiddley]

Also, McHale.

Jerry West?
He was #2 behind Elgin most of his career, than when Elgin aged, Wilt came over.
Might have been one or two years West was the best Laker.  Before my time.

Elgin averaged 27.4 Pts - 13.5 Boards and 4.3 Assists for his career.
One year he was a hair under 35 / 20 / 5.

[bodiddley]

Some others:

James Worthy
Tony Parker

[Kam]

It's a tough question to answer.  It can be discussed subjectively or attempted to answer statistically.  Someone used basketball-reference and broke it down by the VORP (value over replacement player) stat as the best all-in-one statistical measure.  However, this has the unfortunate side effect of cutting out players from before 1973 (that was the first season that VORP has calculations for). The following table excludes players who have played for less than 6 seasons, as they maybe haven't had the opportunity yet to lead a team (this took out players like Donovan Mitchell and Nikola Mirotic).

Here are the top 10 players in VORP per season who have never led a team in VORP.

Player               Seasons   Career VORP   VORP Per Season
Kevin McHale           13        34.3              2.63846154
Draymond Green      8          19.7             2.4625
James Worthy          12        29.1             2.425
Dan Majerle             14        29.7             2.12142857
Detlef Schrempf       16        33.2             2.075
Horace Grant           17        32.8             1.92941176
DeAndre Jordan       12        23                1.91666667
David West              15        27.6             1.84
Sam Perkins            17        31.1             1.82941176
Klay Thompson         8         14.1             1.7625


Some notes:

Stockton and Ginobili don't show up. Ginobili apparently led the Spurs in VORP in 2008 (All-NBA 3rd Team and 6 VORP to Duncan's All-NBA 2nd Team and 4.8 VORP) and 2011 (All-NBA 3rd Team and 4.5 VORP to Duncan's 3.5).

John Stockton had 4 years of being the team VORP leader.

1988: All-NBA 2nd-Team with Malone (7.6 to 2.9)

1989: All-NBA 2nd-Team, but Malone got 1st Team (8.3 to 5.9)

1995: All-NBA 1st-Team with Malone (7.9 to 6)

2002: Neither made All-NBA, but Malone was an All-Star (4.8 to 4.4)

In terms of active players, Dray and Klay have spent their entire careers with Steph, while DeAndre Jordan was always in the shadows of CP3 & Blake Griffin.

Kevin McHale spent his all but his rookie and final seasons flanking Larry Bird. The best case McHale has is the 1989 season when Bird only played six games.

McHale was All-Defense 2nd Team, averaged 22.5 points and 8.2 rebounds on 56.5% shooting, and accumulated 3 VORP

Robert Parish was All-NBA 3rd Team, averaged 18.6 points and 12.5 boards on 58% shooting, and accumulated 3.8 VORP

James Worthy's entire career (save one season) overlapped with Magic

both of Worthy's All-NBA 3rd team selections coincided with a 1st Team selection for Magic

the one season without Magic, he was the singular all-star for the Lakers but point guard Sedale Threatt (15 points and 7 assists) led the team in VORP

Detlef Schrempf didn't really get going until his fifth season in the league

Schrempf spent all four of his Indiana seasons beside Reggie Miller and all 6 of his Seattle seasons flanking Gary Payton

He was All-NBA once with the Sonics, but his 1995 3rd team was overshadowed by the fact that Kemp and Payton were both 2nd team

Horace Grant spent the majority of his prime with the Jordan Bulls and Shaq Magic

His only all-star appearance was in 1994 (the first year of the first Jordan retirement), but Scottie Pippen was still on the team and picked up a 1st team All-NBA selection

The next best chance for Grant is 1998. Shaq had left in the offseason and Penny Hardaway only played 19 games.

Grant averaged 12 points and 8 rebounds shooting 46% from the field

Nick Anderson led the team in scoring with 15.3 per game shooting 45% from the field

Bo Outlaw averaged 9.5 points, 7.8 rebounds, 1.3 steals and 2.2 blocks while also leading the team in VORP

Sam Perkins was never an All-Star

He spent his first 6 seasons with the Rolando Blackman & Mark Aguirre Mavs, 2 seasons with the Lakers (the first with Magic and Worthy, the second with just Worthy) and the rest of his prime with the GP & Kemp Sonics

Dan Majerle had 3 All-Star seasons, two of which overlapped with Charles Barkley

both Majerle (17/6/3 on 48% FG and 38% 3P) and Jeff Hornacek (20/5/5 on 51% FG and 44% 3P) made their first All-Star Game in 1992

David West spent all 8 of his seasons in New Orleans as a CP3 sidekick, the first season of his Indiana tenure as a Danny Granger running mate and his subsequent Indiana seasons in a supporting role to Paul George.

[bodiddley]

They should look into Jerry West.
It can be done without VORP.

[bankshot1]

Its an interesting and tough question, particularly with the ABA siphoning off and then adding back players.

A lot of very good players played in the shadow of Russell. Havlicek an all-timer escaped for a 1-2 years after Russell retired, Cowens came along. Sam Jones a HoF guard who played entirely in the Russell era should probably be on the list.

Some guys who played behind Wilt, like Greer and Chet Walker may be in the same situation.

Without doing a dive into stats, IMO West was the better player that Baylor mid-late 60s before Wilt showed up, and then eclipsed Wilt.

[kiidcarter8]

Today's NBA picks

(missed Miami-Denver)

OKC  +1  Utah

LA Clippers -5  New Orleans

Indiana +3.5  Philadelphia

Toronto +3.5  LA Lakers

[bodiddley]

I figured that Hondo was much like Pippen.  Had one or two years as the main man.

West was likely the best player on his team a few years, but not too many considering the great career he had.

[bankshot1]

They were somewhat similiar as "second-third banana" playing with all-time greats. IMO Havlicek was a better offensive player than Pippen, and Pippen probably a better defensive player, but IMO Havlicek had a modest edge as the better all-around player. He was the connecting link between the Russell years and the next mini-run with Cowens and Jo Jo from 72-76, when the Celts won 2 championships and arguably could have won a 3rd if Hondo didn't get hurt against the Knicks in '73.  He carried a far greater load, and different role, than he did in the Russell era, as it was needed as Cowens and Jo-Jo needed time to become stars

[kiidcarter8]

Loved all 3 but if pressed...

Pippen
Worthy
Havlicek

[bodiddley]

Havlicek
Pippen
Worthy

I saw Hondo live a few times in his last two seasons.
He was supposed to be the greybeard but was still active and all over the place.
Age 36, averaged nearly 18 / 5 / 5 in 37 mins.
At 37: 16 / 4 / 4 in 34 mins, without missing a game.
Averaged nearly 80 games a season.

Besides all he did on the offensive end, Havlicek was 1st team All Defense 5 straight years, and before that 3 years 2nd team All Defense.

Just seeing the Win Share similarity scores on basketballref.com:
first 3 years of their careers Pip and Hondo were pretty even, next 3 years Pip had an advantage, 7th & 8th years even; while the next 8 years Hondo bested Pip.
Just one measure but it was handily right there.

[kiidcarter8]

NBA picks for Sunday August 2


(missed WASH-BKN)


Portland  +4.5  Boston

San Antonio  +2.5  Memphis

Orlando -3  Sacramento

Houston +4  Milwaukee

Dallas  -5.5  Phoenix