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Total Members Voted: 11

Voting closed: February 15, 2022, 10:51:36 AM

[LarryB!]

More performance politics

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4004519-texas-sends-more-migrants-to-vice-presidents-house/

[Hairy Lime]

Keep clinging to that deadly threats raft, Jimbo.  A little duct tape, and repeated incantation of "he's a hero!" and I'm sure you'll survive.

Among the issues RedDick ignores in clinging to that raft: imminence, proportionality and the objectively reasonable fear of injury or death. All of which could be problematic for Penny, depending on how the evidence plays out.

One amusing thing: RedDick started out criticizing AOC and others of jumping to conclusions for political reasons. Which is fair comment. And since then he has made, what 20 posts? ... jumping to conclusions for political reasons.

I have no decided opinion on whether Penny can successfully claim self-defense. But RedDick, as usual, displays zero understanding of the actual law, because a discussion of the actual law was not included in the right wing bilge he has pulled his argument from. Particularly in New York, where I believe the right to self defense also has a duty to retreat requirement. Which is problematic because, well, several people apparently did just that.

[facilitatorn]

Jesus says no trumps.

http://www.huffpost.com/entry/russell-moore-never-trump_n_6461de65e4b005be8ff486d7

You can be Christian or republican but both is impossible. Some folks are going to have to stop pretending and pick a side.

[Espnthree]

I have no decided opinion on whether Penny can successfully claim self-defense. But RedDick, as usual, displays zero understanding of the actual law, because a discussion of the actual law was not included in the right wing bilge he has pulled his argument from. Particularly in New York, where I believe the right to self defense also has a duty to retreat requirement. Which is problematic because, well, several people apparently did just that.

New York Law does not include Stand Your Ground
And in New York the Duty to Retreat has a caveat.

First, a person needs to have actual knowledge that they can retreat from a situation with complete personal safety. So, the question is not whether the person could in fact have retreated with complete personal safety; the question is whether the person knew that they could safely retreat.

As to the use of deadly force another caveat in New York Law.

It  provides a defense of justification, which permits a person to use physical force on another person when it is necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person.

[LarryB!]

I have no decided opinion on whether Penny can successfully claim self-defense. But RedDick, as usual, displays zero understanding of the actual law, because a discussion of the actual law was not included in the right wing bilge he has pulled his argument from. Particularly in New York, where I believe the right to self defense also has a duty to retreat requirement. Which is problematic because, well, several people apparently did just that.

New York Law does not include Stand Your Ground
And in New York the Duty to Retreat has a caveat.

First, a person needs to have actual knowledge that they can retreat from a situation with complete personal safety. So, the question is not whether the person could in fact have retreated with complete personal safety; the question is whether the person knew that they could safely retreat.

As to the use of deadly force another caveat in New York Law.

It  provides a defense of justification, which permits a person to use physical force on another person when it is necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person.

Agreed.

If you club, stab or shoot someone because you feel imminently threatened you may credibly claim self defense in that moment.

However, if you choke a person  for five minutes AFTER he shit on himself you gonna deservedly catch a manslaughter rap.

[LarryB!]

One of the problems Penny is going to have is the fact two men jumped in to assist.
Penny had the nutcase in a choke hold but if he is so well trained in hand to hand he should have shifted to a Nelson while the two others took a leg each.

[luee]

Trump is not republican or democratic, a fascist slumlord perhaps. The old adage about a broken clock holds true.  He was right about mass immigration and closing the borders. He was right in his treatment of veterans. Treason, sedition, overturning elections, and mobs committing violent attacks on political opponents are no no.

[luee]

If the German court was harsher there would not have been the horrors of WWII.

[Hairy Lime]

If the German court was harsher there would not have been the horrors of WWII.

Also, if Princip had missed.

[LarryB!]

Trump is not republican or democratic, a fascist slumlord perhaps. The old adage about a broken clock holds true.  He was right about mass immigration and closing the borders. He was right in his treatment of veterans. Treason, sedition, overturning elections, and mobs committing violent attacks on political opponents are no no.

You are still such a sucker.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/23/trump-obama-veterans-choice-act/

[Hairy Lime]

I have no decided opinion on whether Penny can successfully claim self-defense. But RedDick, as usual, displays zero understanding of the actual law, because a discussion of the actual law was not included in the right wing bilge he has pulled his argument from. Particularly in New York, where I believe the right to self defense also has a duty to retreat requirement. Which is problematic because, well, several people apparently did just that.

New York Law does not include Stand Your Ground
And in New York the Duty to Retreat has a caveat.

First, a person needs to have actual knowledge that they can retreat from a situation with complete personal safety. So, the question is not whether the person could in fact have retreated with complete personal safety; the question is whether the person knew that they could safely retreat.

Yes, that may be a factual issue for the jury to decide. Though again, several people did retreat with complete safety.

As to the use of deadly force another caveat in New York Law.

It  provides a defense of justification, which permits a person to use physical force on another person when it is necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person.

imminence, proportionality and the objectively reasonable fear of injury or death. Whether defending oneself or others. Reasonable and imminent are right in your quote. There are plenty of factual issues Penny is going to have to meet to establish his defense. And plenty of evidence supporting both the decision to charge and the idea that the Grand Jury will return an indictment - ham sandwich, after all - if that is what Bragg wants. He would not be the first prosecutor to hide a politically iffy declination behind a Grand Jury. Cf., roughly every police shooting case not caught on tape.

[facilitatorn]

If the German court was harsher there would not have been the horrors of WWII.

If we had hung Nixon and Ford with him America would still have public schools and fewer murders than El Salvador.

[LarryB!]

Gonna be a long hot summer

https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2023/05/person-with-baseball-bat-attacks-2-staff-members-in-congressman-gerry-connollys-fairfax-office/

[Espnthree]

I have no decided opinion on whether Penny can successfully claim self-defense. But RedDick, as usual, displays zero understanding of the actual law, because a discussion of the actual law was not included in the right wing bilge he has pulled his argument from. Particularly in New York, where I believe the right to self defense also has a duty to retreat requirement. Which is problematic because, well, several people apparently did just that.

New York Law does not include Stand Your Ground
And in New York the Duty to Retreat has a caveat.

First, a person needs to have actual knowledge that they can retreat from a situation with complete personal safety. So, the question is not whether the person could in fact have retreated with complete personal safety; the question is whether the person knew that they could safely retreat.

Yes, that may be a factual issue for the jury to decide. Though again, several people did retreat with complete safety.

As to the use of deadly force another caveat in New York Law.

It  provides a defense of justification, which permits a person to use physical force on another person when it is necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person.

imminence, proportionality and the objectively reasonable fear of injury or death. Whether defending oneself or others. Reasonable and imminent are right in your quote. There are plenty of factual issues Penny is going to have to meet to establish his defense. And plenty of evidence supporting both the decision to charge and the idea that the Grand Jury will return an indictment - ham sandwich, after all - if that is what Bragg wants. He would not be the first prosecutor to hide a politically iffy declination behind a Grand Jury. Cf., roughly every police shooting case not caught on tape.

I have no idea what your point is.

The action by the Marine was well within New York Law as previously noted.
The manslaughter charge may need a jury decision if Bragg can first get an indictment.
Hardly a ham sandwich slam dunk.
Fellow subway riders are already on record praising the response by Penney and his well financed defense team will probably find more. In addition the investigating police felt no need to detain Penney.  More prime defense witnesses.
As to the alleged retreat of other passengers, did they jump off the train?

[facilitatorn]

He got an indictment. That is why there was an arraignment which is why we have a plea. Do try to keep up.