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Total Members Voted: 11

Voting closed: February 15, 2022, 10:51:36 AM

[facilitatorn]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/16/climate-proof-home-energy-clean-solar

[Holly Martins]

This is a really good and unflinching look at the sad history with Afghanistan, which I think BO DIDDLEY may have posted a couple days ago, but it's really worth reposting....

https://www.juancole.com/2021/08/washington-afghanistan-crashing.html

Some of it borders on dark comedy, like the soldiers who got rifle training from some private firm....and they failed to teach them that you have to use the SIGHT to really do any sharpshooting. 

[Hairy Lime]

I hate watching the Evacuation of Saigon reprise and knowing what is coming for the people of Kabul and Afghanistan makes me shudder, let alone our former associates whose heads are on the literal chopping block.

But perhaps the worst part of this, for me, is the deep doubt I have that our government will have learned any lessons from it, whether the GOP cheering section hoping for Biden to screw up or the overly optimistic Dems.

Can't trust the Taliban.

Can't trust the GOP, who insisted we trust the Taliban.

Can't trust the Dems, who insisted we trust the GOP.

What we should have trusted is a century or two of history.  Britain, Russia, US - all the same result there.  The vanity of each country thinking their model of government applies to all other countries no matter what its culture. 

Props to Canada for stepping up and really helping to take in refugees who would face the scimitar if they stayed.

They don't call Afghanistan the Graveyard of Empires for nothing. We are paying now for changing our focus to bogus WMDs in Iraq. But I am not sure it matters. I have not heard a permanent solution to the problem from any of the critics of the Biden pullout. If the status quo had not resulted in a stable Afghanistan in 20 years, how long is simply maintaining the status quo going to last? It looks like 20 years of nation building across three administrations failed.

[facilitatorn]

MSM wakes up

Your mother wants her egg back, failson.

News at 11.

[facilitatorn]

I hate watching the Evacuation of Saigon reprise and knowing what is coming for the people of Kabul and Afghanistan makes me shudder, let alone our former associates whose heads are on the literal chopping block.

But perhaps the worst part of this, for me, is the deep doubt I have that our government will have learned any lessons from it, whether the GOP cheering section hoping for Biden to screw up or the overly optimistic Dems.

Can't trust the Taliban.

Can't trust the GOP, who insisted we trust the Taliban.

Can't trust the Dems, who insisted we trust the GOP.

What we should have trusted is a century or two of history.  Britain, Russia, US - all the same result there.  The vanity of each country thinking their model of government applies to all other countries no matter what its culture. 

Props to Canada for stepping up and really helping to take in refugees who would face the scimitar if they stayed.

They don't call Afghanistan the Graveyard of Empires for nothing. We are paying now for changing our focus to bogus WMDs in Iraq. But I am not sure it matters. I have not heard a permanent solution to the problem from any of the critics of the Biden pullout. If the status quo had not resulted in a stable Afghanistan in 20 years, how long is simply maintaining the status quo going to last? It looks like 20 years of nation building across three administrations failed.

To be fair, trump set us up for lasting success the same way he squashed Covid.

[bodiddley]

Kabul shit going down.

US had only 2500 troops in Afghanistan.  Another 7500 allied troops. Plus contractors.  If that small a contingent meant the difference between having Afghanistan as an ally, a nascent democracy, with women's rights.  That seems worth it compared to allowing the Taliban back in control, Afghanistan again an enemy and potential thorn in our side, harsh sharia deployed, women's rights removed.  Not to mention the fate of those who worked with the US.

Increasingly the fighting in the countryside could have been remote and robotic.  the US supplying logistics and airpower.
The Taliban could have been given significant autonomy in the Pashtun south.

The US has had troops in Germany, Korea, Japan, Philippines for half a century or more.  Maybe instead of focusing on the difficulties of changing Afghanistan, I'd look more at stopping things from reverting back to a medieval Islamic empire, which is is a terrible fate for most Afghanis, while almost certain to embolden various Islamic groups from the Sahara to the Middle East.

[REDSTATEWARD]

Main Street Media wakes up.

The Atlantic published a story headlined, "Biden’s Betrayal of Afghans Will Live in Infamy," which declared the burden of shame for the debacle falls on Biden.

CNN’s Jake Tapper opened Sunday’s edition of "State of the Union" by calling the situation a "tragic foreign policy disaster" that caught the Biden White House "flat-footed."

CNN added

This is the Saigon moment for President Biden and this will be an albatross around his neck for the rest of time,"

[FlyingVProd]

United Nations 

1 hour · 

"We cannot and must not abandon the people of Afghanistan."-- UN Secretary-General António Guterres urges the international community to stand, work and act together to uphold human rights for all and ensure Afghanistan is never again used as a safe haven for terrorists.

----------

We need to strengthen the French Foreign Legion, to help in Afghanistan.

Pulling out while the Taliban comes back into power should not be allowed.

Salute,

Tony V.

[kidcarter8]

Can't trust the GOP, who insisted we trust the Taliban.


Trump gave Taliban PROVISIONS

Biden wiped them out.

[Hairy Lime]

M

Once more and it is spam.

[kidcarter8]

Main Street Media wakes up.

The Atlantic published a story headlined, "Biden’s Betrayal of Afghans Will Live in Infamy," which declared the burden of shame for the debacle falls on Biden.

CNN’s Jake Tapper opened Sunday’s edition of "State of the Union" by calling the situation a "tragic foreign policy disaster" that caught the Biden White House "flat-footed."

CNN added

This is the Saigon moment for President Biden and this will be an albatross around his neck for the rest of time,"

Like I said - he's DONE.

I am already preparing for Ms Harris's tenure.  Have hopes for it, actually.

[facilitatorn]

Main Street Media wakes up.

Your mother wants her egg back, failson.

News at 11:15, after traffic and weather.

[Hairy Lime]

Can't trust the GOP, who insisted we trust the Taliban.


Trump gave Taliban PROVISIONS

Biden wiped them out.

I am not sure you know what you think you mean.

[facilitatorn]

Trump gave Taliban PROVISIONS

And arms and men.

Best friend the Taliban have had, donald trump, at least since Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld did so much to help them out of their 9/11 jam.

Despots have to stick together because they are never very popular at home.

[Holly Martins]

  Afghanistan is a notoriously difficult country to govern. Empire after empire, nation after nation have failed to pacify what is today the modern territory of Afghanistan, giving the region the nickname “Graveyard of Empires, ” even if sometimes those empires won some initial battles and made inroads into the region. If the United States and its allies decide to leave Afghanistan, they would only the latest in a long series of nations to do so. As the British learned in their 1839-1842 war in Afghanistan, it is often easier to do business with a local ruler with popular support than to support a leader backed by foreign powers; the costs of propping up such a leader eventually add up. The closest most historical empires have come to controlling Afghanistan was by adopting a light-handed approach, as the Mughals did. They managed to loosely control the area by paying off various tribes, or granting them autonomy. Attempts at anything resembling centralized control, even by native Afghan governments, have largely failed.   

https://thediplomat.com/2017/06/why-is-afghanistan-the-graveyard-of-empires/